From owner-freebsd-small Mon Sep 28 13:21:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15044 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:21:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oldyeller.comtest.com (comtest.hits.net [206.127.244.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14990 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from randal@comtest.com) Received: from graphics.comtest.com (graphics.comtest.com [206.127.245.194]) by oldyeller.comtest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04094; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:08:30 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from randal@comtest.com) Message-Id: <199809282008.KAA04094@oldyeller.comtest.com> From: "Randal S. Masutani" Organization: ComTest Technologies, Inc. To: Andrzej Bialecki Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:24:32 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: PicoBSD 0.41 is available Reply-to: randal@comtest.com CC: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26 Sep 98, at 20:24, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > Hi, > > It took much longer than I expected... *sigh* But at last the new, > (hopefully) working release of PicoBSD is available for download from > usual place. > > I corrected also a few other bugs besides the main one (i.e. DEVFS), and > updated the "net" and "isp" version to use UCD-SNMP v. 3.5. All programs > except the kernel itself are now in ELF format. > > As usually, if you stumble upon any bug or doubtful "feature", please > report it to me ASAP. Thanks. > > Andrzej Bialecki I found a few things that need looking into: 1. Missing files under; ./tools/dumpnlist/dumpnlist.c ./tools/write_mfs_in_kernel/write_mfs_in_kernel.c ./isp/crunch1/mibs is empty ? ./router/crunch1/mibs is empty, not used, should be removed. ./tinyware/kget/uc_scsi.c has been removed ? ./tinyware/dm is empty ? ./doc/src files should be under ./doc instead ? 2. Problem: build fails due to ./tinyware/ns/Makefile having the CFLAGS+=-DBRIDGING defined by default. I think we should have this commented out by default. I love the new custom build option. It saves me time having to edit build all the time. But there are a few ruff edges. 3. Problem: ./build/clean removes the custom link before cleaning it. 4. Suggestions: - should have a note to change custom/conf/Makefile to read CONFILE=PICOBSD-C.${SIZE} ^^^ - have build use the last CUST_DIR unless told to change it to a new directory path. (ie. don't unlink custom in clean) - instead of having to run clean manually, have build call it automatically before starting the build if it has not been already cleaned. - have clean mv picobsd.bin to picobsd.bin.previous, instead of deleting it. And add an option to install to install previous version picobsd.bin.previous. Randal ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ComTest Technologies, Inc. 3049 Ualena St., Suite 1005 Honolulu, Hawaii 96819 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Sep 28 13:36:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17254 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17244 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA23064; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:40:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:40:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: "Randal S. Masutani" cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: PicoBSD 0.41 is available In-Reply-To: <199809282008.KAA04094@oldyeller.comtest.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Randal S. Masutani wrote: > I found a few things that need looking into: > > 1. Missing files under; > ./tools/dumpnlist/dumpnlist.c > ./tools/write_mfs_in_kernel/write_mfs_in_kernel.c They are not missing - they are being taken from src/release/*. See the .PATH: in Makefile's. > ./isp/crunch1/mibs is empty ? Yep. The MIB files are taken from ../../net/mibs/. :-) > ./router/crunch1/mibs is empty, not used, should be removed. Well, techincally speaking you're right, but due to the way CVS works it will be recreated each time you do an update... If you can't live with it, I can ask CVS meister to remove it completely from the repository. > ./tinyware/kget/uc_scsi.c has been removed ? Yes. This follows changes in sysinstall. This code has never been used, and causes problems with CAM-ified SCSI. > ./tinyware/dm is empty ? This is now called 'msg'. See above for CVS behaviour... > ./doc/src files should be under ./doc instead ? See the doc/src/Makefile. > 2. Problem: > build fails due to ./tinyware/ns/Makefile > having the CFLAGS+=-DBRIDGING defined by default. > I think we should have this commented out by default. You're probably right - I turned it on forgetting that my source tree wasn't quite the same as -current. Eventually we'll turn it on, but now there are some pieces of BRIDGE code still missing... > I love the new custom build option. It saves me time having to edit > build all the time. But there are a few ruff edges. > > 3. Problem: > ./build/clean removes the custom link before cleaning it. > > 4. Suggestions: Ok, I'll take a look at it. Thanks very much! Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Sep 28 14:19:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27111 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:19:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oldyeller.comtest.com (comtest.hits.net [206.127.244.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26777 for ; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 14:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from randal@comtest.com) Received: from graphics.comtest.com (graphics.comtest.com [206.127.245.194]) by oldyeller.comtest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04319; Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:01:14 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from randal@comtest.com) Message-Id: <199809282101.LAA04319@oldyeller.comtest.com> From: "Randal S. Masutani" Organization: ComTest Technologies, Inc. To: Andrzej Bialecki Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:17:14 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: PicoBSD 0.41 is available Reply-to: randal@comtest.com CC: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199809282008.KAA04094@oldyeller.comtest.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 28 Sep 98, at 22:40, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Randal S. Masutani wrote: > > > I found a few things that need looking into: > > > > 1. Missing files under; > > ./tools/dumpnlist/dumpnlist.c > > ./tools/write_mfs_in_kernel/write_mfs_in_kernel.c > > They are not missing - they are being taken from src/release/*. See the > .PATH: in Makefile's. I missed that, however could you make the PATHs reference a full path instead of a relative one ? Or do I have to move my picobsd directory under /usr/src/release ? Randal ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ComTest Technologies, Inc. 3049 Ualena St., Suite 1005 Honolulu, Hawaii 96819 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 29 03:27:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23771 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:27:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23765 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 03:27:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00993; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:31:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:31:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: "Randal S. Masutani" cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: PicoBSD 0.41 is available In-Reply-To: <199809282101.LAA04319@oldyeller.comtest.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Randal S. Masutani wrote: > On 28 Sep 98, at 22:40, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > > On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Randal S. Masutani wrote: > > > > > I found a few things that need looking into: > > > > > > 1. Missing files under; > > > ./tools/dumpnlist/dumpnlist.c > > > ./tools/write_mfs_in_kernel/write_mfs_in_kernel.c > > > > They are not missing - they are being taken from src/release/*. See the > > .PATH: in Makefile's. > > I missed that, however could you make the PATHs reference a full path > instead of a relative one ? > Or do I have to move my picobsd directory under /usr/src/release ? No. Yes. :-) I.e., you have to move it to /wherever/your/src/release/picobsd. I wouldn't want to change the .PATH: to absolute /usr/src/blabla.. because some people like to keep (one of their many) source tree in non-standard place, like /u/2.2.7/src, /opt/current/tree/src etc... Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 30 14:03:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24535 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24491 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:02:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.101]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA334 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 23:02:08 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 22:59:01 +0200 To: FreeBSD Small From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: PicoBSD In-Reply-To: References: <199809282101.LAA04319@oldyeller.comtest.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, not really a contributive mail at this time, since I just got home from Germany (courses/training), but I wanted to start a discussion nonetheless to show that I am busy on it though =) I read that ye had the desire/wish to make the router version of picoBSD akin in use to Cisco's IOS/Shiva's SpiderSoftware? As far as I am concerned, I like that idea and would gladly contribute my opinions and wishes for such an interface, might be a program/shell that will be loaded at boottime to give the user such an interface... Also I am testing the bootdisks too and unfortunately they were they older versions with the DEVFS stuff in it and paniced on two dell systems, but ran fine on my system here... But that's not really helpful =) Anyways, I would love to hear your ideas about the frontend/UI/shell replacement, etc... regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 1 03:22:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24543 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 03:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24535 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 03:22:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA24249; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:26:29 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 12:26:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: FreeBSD Small Subject: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > I read that ye had the desire/wish to make the router version of picoBSD > akin in use to Cisco's IOS/Shiva's SpiderSoftware? > As far as I am concerned, I like that idea and would gladly contribute my > opinions and wishes for such an interface, might be a program/shell that > will be loaded at boottime to give the user such an interface... Perhaps this is a dead end, perhaps not.. but now I'm experimenting with Forth (in fact, its variant: /usr/ports/lang/atlast) - I need this in some other project as well, and I thought it would be a nice approach. It's very small, fast, robust, it has very well defined memory constraints and consumption, and what's important it allows for embedding in your program. Now, there is a huge number of other script languages (python, tcl, Bourne shell, to name a few), some of them are embeddable, but all of them are much bigger and much more hungry for resources... At the moment it's just an idea, I haven't written any code yet, just playing with it. I'm sure those of you, white-bearded hackers, who have more experience in this area, will have some opinions on this... :-) > Also I am testing the bootdisks too and unfortunately they were they older > versions with the DEVFS stuff in it and paniced on two dell systems, but > ran fine on my system here... But that's not really helpful =) I hope you've got the new (0.41) version? The version with DEVFS (0.4) can survive if you don't use filesystem too much (if you edit a small file, you're fine, but do an 'ls -lR /' and it will die on you). Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 1 13:46:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00888 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00797 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:46:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.242]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA1F54; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:45:40 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 22:47:16 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <7718969811B4.AAA1F54@smtp02.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:26 01-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >> I read that ye had the desire/wish to make the router version of picoBSD >> akin in use to Cisco's IOS/Shiva's SpiderSoftware? >> As far as I am concerned, I like that idea and would gladly contribute my >> opinions and wishes for such an interface, might be a program/shell that >> will be loaded at boottime to give the user such an interface... >Perhaps this is a dead end, perhaps not.. but now I'm experimenting with >Forth (in fact, its variant: /usr/ports/lang/atlast) - I need this in some >other project as well, and I thought it would be a nice approach. Forth, forth, isn't that YAPL (Yet Another Programming Language)? *Looking at the ports directory name verifies it* =) >It's very small, fast, robust, it has very well defined memory constraints >and consumption, and what's important it allows for embedding in your >program. Now, there is a huge number of other script languages (python, >tcl, Bourne shell, to name a few), some of them are embeddable, but all of >them are much bigger and much more hungry for resources... Uh huh, and for what purpose? The User Interface like I said, and as you yerself suggested on the WWW pages? >At the moment it's just an idea, I haven't written any code yet, just >playing with it. I'm sure those of you, white-bearded hackers, who have >more experience in this area, will have some opinions on this... :-) Well, the designing of the UI can be done without even coding it yet =) Also the command categorizing can also be done in advance... Besides, the UI/shell has to pass these commands to the config files, but will these still be the same as FreeBSD's or will they use the FreeBSD kernel and device drivers and then built the config/router software on top of that? >> Also I am testing the bootdisks too and unfortunately they were they older >> versions with the DEVFS stuff in it and paniced on two dell systems, but >> ran fine on my system here... But that's not really helpful =) > >I hope you've got the new (0.41) version? The version with DEVFS (0.4) can >survive if you don't use filesystem too much (if you edit a small file, >you're fine, but do an 'ls -lR /' and it will die on you). Not yet, have to download it again... Just letting ye know about 0.40 =) regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 1 14:36:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09763 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rachel (mail.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA09750 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:36:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA00490; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:28:43 -0400 Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29146; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 17:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810012128.RAA29146@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: Andrzej Bialecki , FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Oct 1998 22:47:16 +0200." <7718969811B4.AAA1F54@smtp02.wxs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 17:28:43 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At 12:26 01-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > >On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: [snips] > > >Perhaps this is a dead end, perhaps not.. but now I'm experimenting with > >Forth (in fact, its variant: /usr/ports/lang/atlast) - I need this in some > >other project as well, and I thought it would be a nice approach. > > Forth, forth, isn't that YAPL (Yet Another Programming Language)? *Looking > at the ports directory name verifies it* =) YAPL with some pretty desirable attributes for this sort of application. I believe you're right on track Adrzej. Have you experienced any 'technical difficulties' with AtLast? We tried to use it ourselves and beat a hasty retreat to PFE (/usr/ports/lang/forth). (SIGSEGVs) You might poke around ftp://ftp.taygeta.com for more Forth lore. I would encourage you to stick with an ANSI forth if possible since there is a fair amount of UI code available. Feel free to drop me a line if I can help with any Forth issues... Cheers, Jerry Hicks jerry.hicks@glenayre.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 1 22:26:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02012 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:26:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opera.iinet.net.au (opera.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02007 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:26:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from c.avis@rama-tech.com) Received: from grunge.iinet.net.au (grunge.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.9]) by opera.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA32386 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:26:25 +0800 Received: from jupiter.rama.com.au (reggae-08-72.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.3.72]) by grunge.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA05413 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:26:17 +0800 Received: from rama-tech.com (chris [192.156.249.56]) by jupiter.rama.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00978 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:21:52 +0800 Message-ID: <3614627D.AAD3E521@rama-tech.com> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 13:19:57 +0800 From: Chris Avis Organization: RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: IOS/SHiva's SpiderSoftware Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Could someone who knows what this interface looks like/ behaves post a quick description to the group. I'm not sure what is being proposed here. Chris -- Chris Avis (c.avis@rama-tech.com) _--_|\ RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd, 28 Walters Drive / \ Osborne Park, Western Australia 6017, Australia \_.--._/ Tel: +61 8 9445 7999 Fax: +61 8 9445 7666 v http://www.rama-tech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 1 22:55:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04753 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:55:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04724 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:55:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA11398; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 07:59:40 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 07:59:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Jerry Hicks cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810012128.RAA29146@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jerry Hicks wrote: > > At 12:26 01-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > >On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > [snips] > > > > >Perhaps this is a dead end, perhaps not.. but now I'm experimenting with > > >Forth (in fact, its variant: /usr/ports/lang/atlast) - I need this in some > > >other project as well, and I thought it would be a nice approach. > > > > Forth, forth, isn't that YAPL (Yet Another Programming Language)? *Looking > > at the ports directory name verifies it* =) > > YAPL with some pretty desirable attributes for this sort of application. I > believe you're right on track Adrzej. Heh.. Thanks for confirmation :-) Well, I know it's not _that_ popular , but it gives tremendous programmability and flexibility, compared to what /bin/sh gives with much more bloat. And I'd rather not invent YAPL, tripping over the same pitfalls as others did - Forth is very mature and well defined. The issue here is not to rewrite all FreeBSD userland in Forth - that would be stupid. The problem here is to invent such an UI which could easily be tweaked to individual needs, and allow for automated tasks, while _incorporating_ necessary userland functions into it. Most Forth implementations I saw thus far (ca. 6) allow for relatively easy integration of C modules, accessible as primitive words from inside the interpreter. > Have you experienced any 'technical difficulties' with AtLast? We tried to > use it ourselves and beat a hasty retreat to PFE (/usr/ports/lang/forth). > (SIGSEGVs) "Technical difficulties"... :) It's an euphemism - I can't force it to accept even the basic words (such as (strlit), words) without dumping core on me. I also looked at PFE - now, this looks much more mature. It's bigger, though. There is also a this4th I found on Taygeta... and pforth, gforth... each of them with its own pros and cons. We'll see. > Feel free to drop me a line if I can help with any Forth issues... Thanks, I'll remember that! :-) Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Oct 2 05:02:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13821 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 05:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13750 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 05:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05563; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:06:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:06:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Chris Avis cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IOS/SHiva's SpiderSoftware In-Reply-To: <3614627D.AAD3E521@rama-tech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Chris Avis wrote: > Could someone who knows what this interface looks like/ > behaves post a quick description to the group. I'm not > sure what is being proposed here. I don't know it, but here's what I want to do. I'd like to have some kind of command-line interface which would allow for complete configuration of a {pico,Free}BSD box. I don't mind if we end up with totally incompatible layout of config file (note: a single file, not a bunch of scripties), as long as we have some generic enough tool to either convert it to the standard ones, or to perform the task of bringing up the system itself, basing on this description. Since I'm pretty familiar with the Cisco's IOS, this was the first example that came to my mind. I'm certainly open for other models, as long as they provide for: * consistent structure, and view of the system properties * ease of use, and possible customization * programmability * ability to perform automated tasks I'm asking for much, I know, but we can evaluate various candidates... For a full-fledged system someone proposed to use LDAP, but for embedded applications it's a total overkill - we need something even more light-weight ;-) Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 3 12:11:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14697 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14657 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:11:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.98]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA4A1D; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:11:04 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 20:54:04 +0200 To: Chris Avis , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: IOS/SHiva's SpiderSoftware In-Reply-To: <3614627D.AAD3E521@rama-tech.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 07:19 02-10-98 , Chris Avis wrote: >Could someone who knows what this interface looks like/ >behaves post a quick description to the group. I'm not >sure what is being proposed here. What we were discussing was the little bit of text that Andrej posted on the webpages about the picoBSD getting a UI that might work like IOS or SpiderSoftware's config commands... That's basically it =) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhZkvIY752GnxADpEQJXLQCgz1zmqB8upNma1zDy+xiZXaVOaJUAnjr2 eZy5EJ6sv0/InGMQch9uwcJ5 =Ha2R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 3 12:11:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14699 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:11:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14669 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.98]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB4A1D; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:11:07 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 21:12:45 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , Jerry Hicks From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: References: <199810012128.RAA29146@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 07:59 02-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jerry Hicks wrote: > >> YAPL with some pretty desirable attributes for this sort of application. I >> believe you're right on track Adrzej. > >Heh.. Thanks for confirmation :-) Well, I know it's not _that_ popular >, but it gives tremendous programmability and >flexibility, compared to what /bin/sh gives with much more bloat. And I'd >rather not invent YAPL, tripping over the same pitfalls as others did - >Forth is very mature and well defined. Never played with Forth, what does it compare to? >The issue here is not to rewrite all FreeBSD userland in Forth - that >would be stupid. The problem here is to invent such an UI which could >easily be tweaked to individual needs, and allow for automated tasks, >while _incorporating_ necessary userland functions into it. Most >Forth implementations I saw thus far (ca. 6) allow for relatively easy >integration of C modules, accessible as primitive words from inside the >interpreter. That wasn't my suggestion, but the current setup of FreeBSD is too limiting or too scattered throughout directories to be of any use for the picoBSD setup. But I think that's the question, how far are ye willing to go to preserve usability on the picoBSD setups, as far as I now can foresee, we use these disks for quick and 'dirty' routers. How much use is there to support every known command that don't actually add on to the purpose of which the disks were designed (correct me if wrong offcourse =). As I see it, we should/could use the FreeBSD cores, extend it with things like Zebra and the likes and modify the UI/shell to resemble configuration commands like IOS and Shiva/SpiderSoftware routing stuff... Offcourse, just my two cents =) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhZpHoY752GnxADpEQJRDACg4UiG15PM1IAAZueQZMsYjcw57N8AoLAW jmZtZSIa3YCuQjiv+AT78iUz =geav -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 3 12:31:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17186 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17179 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.98]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA4C1E; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 21:31:09 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 21:32:51 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , Chris Avis From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: IOS/SHiva's SpiderSoftware Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3614627D.AAD3E521@rama-tech.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 14:06 02-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, Chris Avis wrote: > >> Could someone who knows what this interface looks like/ >> behaves post a quick description to the group. I'm not >> sure what is being proposed here. > >I don't know it, but here's what I want to do. > >I'd like to have some kind of command-line interface which would allow for >complete configuration of a {pico,Free}BSD box. Yes, yes, yes, use picoBSD as name, looks so much better than PicoBSD... Oh sorry, guess the warden of the mental hospital wasn't looking again =) >I don't mind if we end up with totally incompatible layout of config file >(note: a single file, not a bunch of scripties), as long as we have some >generic enough tool to either convert it to the standard ones, or to >perform the task of bringing up the system itself, basing on this >description. Do I hear Perl there? =) >Since I'm pretty familiar with the Cisco's IOS, this was the first example >that came to my mind. I'm certainly open for other models, as long >as they provide for: So we're back at the IOS-like Interface? =) Any experience with Shiva's or the older SpiderSystems Routers/Bridges? >* consistent structure, and view of the system properties >* ease of use, and possible customization >* programmability >* ability to perform automated tasks > >I'm asking for much, I know, but we can evaluate various candidates... For Candidates thus far: IOS Shiva/SpiderSoftware / Zebra GateD add any others along with neccesary URLs Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhZt1IY752GnxADpEQKnRQCePnH/qGYVFIidzBI96ptnY1YFBXIAoNBD T26w9pyke+C+o0wHdzrqKSdo =2FQy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 3 15:35:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10151 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10129 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 15:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA07583; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:39:32 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:39:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > At 07:59 02-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > >On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jerry Hicks wrote: > > > >> YAPL with some pretty desirable attributes for this sort of application. > I > >> believe you're right on track Adrzej. > > > >Heh.. Thanks for confirmation :-) Well, I know it's not _that_ popular > >, but it gives tremendous programmability and > >flexibility, compared to what /bin/sh gives with much more bloat. And I'd > >rather not invent YAPL, tripping over the same pitfalls as others did - > >Forth is very mature and well defined. > > Never played with Forth, what does it compare to? Hard to tell... It's definitely different than other popular languages. It's built around a concept of stack (all operations are done on its internal stacks), it's a cross between compiler and interpreter, uses a Reverse Polish Notation for most of its operations (now, this is not the reason I started to play with it :-)), etc, etc, - see www.forth.org for more info. > That wasn't my suggestion, but the current setup of FreeBSD is too limiting > or too scattered throughout directories to be of any use for the picoBSD > setup. Exactly! This is the issue I want to address. > But I think that's the question, how far are ye willing to go to > preserve usability on the picoBSD setups, as far as I now can foresee, we > use these disks for quick and 'dirty' routers. How much use is there to > support every known command that don't actually add on to the purpose of > which the disks were designed (correct me if wrong offcourse =). As I see > it, we should/could use the FreeBSD cores, extend it with things like Zebra > and the likes and modify the UI/shell to resemble configuration commands > like IOS and Shiva/SpiderSoftware routing stuff... Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 3 16:46:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21151 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21119 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 16:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA21910; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 19:45:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Andrzej Bialecki cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 04 Oct 1998 00:39:32 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:45:30 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a > Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these > elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming > abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. I can certainly see how having an extensible shell would be a very attractive thing. But if you expect mere mortals to be able to run (and extend) the thing, I think a FORTH-based approach is doomed to fail (again). Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps a more familair procedural type model. louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message