From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 8:56:28 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A043937B400; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9750543E75; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 08:56:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g84Fu7PW002238 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:56:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: "Andrey A. Chernov" , i18n@FreeBSD.org Subject: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:57:17 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209040841.45490@aldan> <20020904140410.GA30776@nagual.pp.ru> In-Reply-To: <20020904140410.GA30776@nagual.pp.ru> Cc: Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Moved to FreeBSD-i18n@] On Wednesday 04 September 2002 10:04 am, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: = On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 08:41:45 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = > I'm afraid, you did not quite understand me. I don't suggest we = > install koi8-u fonts and pretend (in fonts.dir), that they are = > koi8-r -- that would violate a standard. What I advocate is to = > populate X11R6/lib/fonts/cyrillic/ with koi8-u fonts instead of the = > koi8-r. Now, which standard does this violate? = Why instead? Just add them there. koi8-r is Cyrillic subset too, at = least. Can you name one scenario, where someone would knowingly prefer a koi8-r font over a koi8-u one? In other words, some real application, that depends on those few pseudo-graphics symbols, that koi8-u replaces with non-Russian, but still Cyrillic letters? Having both installed by default just wastes diskspace and -- if installed in the same directory -- X-server's memory. If somewhere such a scenario exists, the koi8-r can be installed in addition. For years, many people needing koi8-u had to install a separate port because "Cyrillic" was not enough. Now a much smaller number of people (I estimate the number to be between 0 and 1) will have to install a separate koi8-r port (or your russian/X.language) instead. As I mentioned already, koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u, let's move on. = > The biggest confusion so far, has been Russian-only fonts installed = > as Cyrillic. Strangely, it did not bother you... = Because they are Cyrillic subset. I appreciate any Cyrillic subset = installed as Cyrillic, all of them, but not as replacement. I not see = any reason for replacement, all fonts can be installed. The are "Russian". They should've been named as such. Naming them "Cyrillic" just brings back the horrible memories of Russia's dominance over its neighbours... See below on replacement vs. addition. = > Exactly. So, please, cite the standard, that is violated by Maxim's = > recent change. = Not standards but common sense. Your earlier e-mails seemed to have claimed standard violations. I'm glad we are past that... As you can see, serious doubts remain over the "common sense" part too. = > There are no standards covering this aspect of port names. Most = > (all?) names of the ports installing fonts do not specify encodings. = > Cyrillic never meant koi8-r -- except for some ignorant people -- = > and was never documented as such. Maxim just brought the port closer = > to the reasonable expectations. = Cyrillic means koi8-r, as subset. No. koi8-r means Cyrillic, but not the other way around. In fact, I even doubt the former -- I'm fairly certain, the alphabet created by Cyril and Methody in the 9th century had the ``i'' letter, that koi8-r is missing... (-: = If I'll agree with your point of view, I immediately step in and = replace koi8-u fonts with windows-1251 fonts which are Cyrillic, and = you can't say anything. Mm, no: . Windows-1251 is hardly a standard . It is not at all compatible with the things you say it can replace (unlike koi8-u, which is hard to distinguish from koi8-r) . It does not provide any more letters over the koi8-u Any one of the reasons above is sufficient, but altogether they refute your point soundly. = I told you, your "replacement" idea is very very bad. Nothing should = replace anything. All things must co-exists. I see nothing wrong with obsoleted things being replaced by their modern equivalents. There is no point in keeping the obsolete bits, such as koi8-r charsets -- especially in X11, but also in the syscons, BTW. As you confirmed some time ago, none of the pseudo-graphics replaced in the koi8-r by koi8-u are used by the termcaps anyway. Removing the share/syscons/fonts/koi8-r* would be quite welcome. Temporary aliases can be suggested to ease the transition. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 9:19:43 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187AD37B400; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8991E43E75; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.gmd.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g84GJ6G00165; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:19:06 +0200 (MEST) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:19:04 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" , , Maxim Sobolev , Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) In-Reply-To: <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Message-ID: <20020904180906.W34486-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Sep 2002, Mikhail Teterin wrote: [SNIP] MT>I see nothing wrong with obsoleted things being replaced by their modern MT>equivalents. There is no point in keeping the obsolete bits, such as MT>koi8-r charsets -- especially in X11, but also in the syscons, BTW. MT> MT>As you confirmed some time ago, none of the pseudo-graphics replaced MT>in the koi8-r by koi8-u are used by the termcaps anyway. Removing the MT>share/syscons/fonts/koi8-r* would be quite welcome. Temporary aliases MT>can be suggested to ease the transition. As long as one is able to refer to the fonts by means of a koi8-r alias, replacing is probably ok. To read russian it would not occur to me that I have to select a koi8-u font after beeing used for many years to use koi8-r. I suppose that there are a lot of documents, HTML pages and what ever out there, that try to use koi8-r. NB: RFC 2319 names koi8-u as KOI8 (Ukrainian). And how about koi8-c fonts? Are there any available? harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.gmd.de, brandt@fokus.fhg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 9:53:36 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FE037B406; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA85943E3B; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g84GqpPW006858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:52:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: Harti Brandt Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 12:54:00 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" , , Maxim Sobolev , References: <20020904180906.W34486-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> In-Reply-To: <20020904180906.W34486-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200209041254.00131.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday 04 September 2002 12:19 pm, Harti Brandt wrote: = = And how about koi8-c fonts? Are there any available? Haven't heard about those, but thanks for the pointer! Google found the http://sawsoft.newmail.ru/LS/koi8-extended.html according to which: This new 8-bit Cyrillic encoding can be used for Russian, Ukrainian, Byelorussian, Serbian, Macedonian languages (like the CP1251 code page) but also includes letters for the old (pre-1917) Russian orthography ("yat", "fita", "izhitsa") and some frequently used typographic symbols (same positions as CP1251). The possibility to type texts using old Russian orthography and the extra typographic symbols are the main reasons to use this encoding. I have also created: a keyboard map (xmodmap) and a set of X window screen fonts (BDF) in KOI8-C encoding (fully compatible with KOI8-R and KOI8-U as regards letters); a perl script to print texts to Postscript using a BDF font; and a spell checker for old Russian orthography. If this is true, the koi8-u is also obsolete :-) That page deserves some attention. I imagine some ports and patches shall be forthcoming. I wonder, if there is an RFC formalizing it, though... = harti -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 19:17:21 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0D2437B400; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7763043E42; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: from pobrecita.freebsd.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g852Gsbq037452; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:16:55 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by pobrecita.freebsd.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g852Gipx037451; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:16:45 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:16:42 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209040841.45490@aldan> <20020904140410.GA30776@nagual.pp.ru> <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 11:57:17 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > > Can you name one scenario, where someone would knowingly prefer a koi8-r > font over a koi8-u one? In other words, some real application, that This is not subject of user preferences or user choice. If some program request koi8-r, it must get koi8-r back exactly, because it *may* use its special chars. It seems you don't undertsand compatibility issues. If koi8-r can be replaced, it can be replaced by Unicode only. > As I mentioned already, koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u, let's move on. I have no time to educate ignorant people, but as FreeBDS localization authority, I explicetely forbid any attempts to replace koi8-r with something less compatible (i.e. not by Unicode). Is it clear? > . Windows-1251 is hardly a standard > . It is not at all compatible with the things you say it > can replace (unlike koi8-u, which is hard to distinguish > from koi8-r) > . It does not provide any more letters over the koi8-u Windows-1251 is more suitable for modern Cyrillic typography needs then koi8-u. Lets move on, and replace obsoleted koi8-u not used anywhere. Missing rare letters are not valuable as typhography needs and can be replaced by other letters. Enough on this thread from me, see my second paragraph from above as my final statement. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 19:31:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB6437B400; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4951B43E3B; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 19:31:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: from pobrecita.freebsd.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g852VUbq037541; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:31:30 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by pobrecita.freebsd.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g852VQTQ037540; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:31:26 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:31:25 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <20020905023124.GB37309@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209040841.45490@aldan> <20020904140410.GA30776@nagual.pp.ru> <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 06:16:42 +0400, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 11:57:17 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > > > > Can you name one scenario, where someone would knowingly prefer a koi8-r > > font over a koi8-u one? In other words, some real application, that > > This is not subject of user preferences or user choice. If some program > request koi8-r, it must get koi8-r back exactly, because it *may* use its > special chars. It seems you don't undertsand compatibility issues. If > koi8-r can be replaced, it can be replaced by Unicode only. > Just recall an example understandable by non-Cyrillic related people: ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern", but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts everywhere and so on. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 21:23: 7 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48F5F37B400; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (aldan.algebra.com [216.254.65.224]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4567943E6A; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from aldan.algebra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g854IOvC042253; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:18:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi@aldan.algebra.com) Received: by aldan.algebra.com (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g854IGsm042252; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:18:15 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> In-Reply-To: <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7whJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday 04 September 2002 10:16 pm, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: = On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 11:57:17 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = > Can you name one scenario, where someone would knowingly prefer a koi8-r = > font over a koi8-u one? In other words, some real application, that = This is not subject of user preferences or user choice. If some program = request koi8-r, it must get koi8-r back exactly, because it *may* use its = special chars. It seems you don't undertsand compatibility issues. If = koi8-r can be replaced, it can be replaced by Unicode only. Such application will be able to use any other encoding as well as have voice interface and the ability to water flowers. Any statement is true about the elements of an empty set, Andrey. And we both know, the set is empty and will remain empty (see the quote below) -- even if the new Cronyx fonts finally provide the entire KOI8-R, the X11 does not and thus no app will rely on it. I understand the compatibility issues, and I know, that no vendor would write an application, that uses those special characters -- because of, uhm, compatibility issues... = > As I mentioned already, koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u, let's move on. = I have no time to educate ignorant people, but as FreeBDS localization = authority, I explicetely forbid any attempts to replace koi8-r with = something less compatible (i.e. not by Unicode). Is it clear? It is clear, that you are out of arguments. And that you should be relieved of your tzar-like position ASAP :-( You failed it as follows: . You make an incomplete set of "good enough", but not standard compliant KOI8-R fonts (see quote below) available at your web-site and send them to XFree86, pretending/implying that . the fonts you distribute are KOI8-R . KOI8-R *IS* Cyrillic Practicality rules -- standards be damned -- we need to be able to read/write in Russian! . You are perfectly comfortable with XFree86 distributing those fonts as KOI8-R ones and "KOI8-R" as "Cyrillic", even after . the KOI8-U is introduced (you even helped them with the RFC, so you *knew* about it) . after the more updated KOI8-R fonts became available elsewhere; . Although it may be difficult to reach the right person at the XFree86 project (you did succeed once), you did not even bother to make sure the FreeBSD's XFree86 ports use the correct fonts and names -- for YEARS -- until Maxim improved the present situation... Now, all of a sudden, standards suddenly started to matter and practical issues such as diskspace and X-server's memory stopped... Don't you think, this is not how a responsible "internationalization authority" should act -- to remain a respected ruler, rather than a pitty tyrant? "Character accusations"? You bet! = Enough on this thread from me, see my second paragraph from above as my = final statement. Yada-yada... = Just recall an example understandable by non-Cyrillic related people: = ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern", = but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts = everywhere and so on. I would suggest just that -- if no application really uses those 8 characters. I'm not certain that's the case, though. But I'm certain about it with koi8-r vs. koi8-u (or -c). And lack of counterexamples from you implies, that you are too. The "non-standard" cry is all you have to say. May be, after authoring the koi8-r you don't want to see it vanish. But standards change. New RFCs obsolete, modify, invalidate old ones -- happens all the time in all domains... Sometimes a standard is discarded even without a formal replacement -- even in FreeBSD (tcp_drop_synfin, for example). This particular standard -- koi8-r -- was introduced by you, and it increasingly looks like your personal attachment to it is affecting your judgement. I'll finish with the quote from the author of the koi8-c staff. You can find his xcyr.README.en in the http://oldrus-ispell.sourceforge.net/xcyr-2.3.tar.gz In comparison with KOI8-R, many linedrawing and other characters have been replaced by various Cyrillic letters and most frequently needed typographic characters. The removed characters were chosen according to the consideration that they are in fact never used in modern computing environments. In particular, the only available set of X window fonts in the KOI8-R encoding (the "xrus" package of Andrey Chernov and its descendants) never had any of the characters I removed from the KOI8-R map and there seems to be no software that makes use of these characters. Therefore, the replacement of KOI8-R by KOI8-C will not affect any current computing environments, while at the same time it will enable the use of non-Russian Cyrillic characters as well as typographic symbols. There. And the koi8-u is even less intrusive than koi8-c. But now that I'm aware of the later, I think, we should move to it directly. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Wed Sep 4 21:39: 3 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9795637B400; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9DD043E42; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 21:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: from pobrecita.freebsd.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g854cebq038551; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:41 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by pobrecita.freebsd.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g854cdcV038550; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:39 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:38 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> <200209050018.15176@aldan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200209050018.15176@aldan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:18:15 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > provide the entire KOI8-R, the X11 does not and thus no app will rely on it. > I understand the compatibility issues, and I know, that no vendor would write > an application, that uses those special characters -- because of, uhm, > compatibility issues... Applications which follow standards will do. > . You make an incomplete set of "good enough", but not standard compliant > KOI8-R fonts (see quote below) available at your web-site and send them to > XFree86, pretending/implying that > . the fonts you distribute are KOI8-R > . KOI8-R *IS* Cyrillic > Practicality rules -- standards be damned -- we need to be able to > read/write in Russian! I treat Cyrillic as superset, so KOI8-R is Cyrillic too. BTW, I not insist on such calling strictly. If XFree86 name it fontRussian, it will be nice for me too. > . You are perfectly comfortable with XFree86 distributing those fonts as > KOI8-R ones and "KOI8-R" as "Cyrillic", even after > . the KOI8-U is introduced (you even helped them with the RFC, so you *knew* > about it) > . after the more updated KOI8-R fonts became available elsewhere; Yes. I have nothing against KOI8-U, KOI8-C etc. IN ADDITION to KOI8-R. > . Although it may be difficult to reach the right person at the XFree86 > project (you did succeed once), you did not even bother to make sure the > FreeBSD's XFree86 ports use the correct fonts and names -- for YEARS -- > until Maxim improved the present situation... Now, all of a sudden, > standards suddenly started to matter and practical issues such as > diskspace and X-server's memory stopped... As I already say, both Cyrillic and Russian naming of KOI8-R are nice for me, so I don't bother. > = ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern", > = but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts > = everywhere and so on. > > I would suggest just that -- if no application really uses those 8 characters. Yes, there are rarely used positions which are changed. > I'm not certain that's the case, though. But I'm certain about it with koi8-r > vs. koi8-u (or -c). There is no differences koi8-r vs. koi8-u and 8859-1 vs. 8859-15 in the matter we discuss. > And lack of counterexamples from you implies, that you are too. The Counterexamples are easy, f.e. FIDO newsgroups gated whcih use full KOI8-R pseudographics. > Sometimes a standard is discarded even without a formal replacement -- even in > FreeBSD (tcp_drop_synfin, for example). This particular standard -- koi8-r -- > was introduced by you, and it increasingly looks like your personal > attachment to it is affecting your judgement. koi8-r is not called back or discarded, it means it will stay forever. If you are not happy with koi8-r - make your own standard and tell people to use it. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Sep 5 6: 8:39 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C6B37B4B7 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snark.ptc.spbu.ru (snark.ptc.spbu.ru [195.19.225.131]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E4943E3B for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 06:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uwe@snark.ptc.spbu.ru) Received: (from uwe@localhost) by snark.ptc.spbu.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g85D7uG16504 for i18n@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:07:56 +0400 (MSD) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:07:55 +0400 From: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <20020905130755.GA14301@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mail-Followup-To: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> <200209050018.15176@aldan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200209050018.15176@aldan> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:18:15 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > = Just recall an example understandable by non-Cyrillic related people: > > = ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern", > = but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts > = everywhere and so on. > > I would suggest just that -- if no application really uses those 8 > characters. *chuckle*... This is not something one would say openly if one wants to be qualified to have an informed opinion on the subject of standard compliance. ;) Standards live their own life when published. It might be tempting to silently ignore some part of the standard but then folks that are not "in the know" come, take the standard and implement it to the letter and bad things happen. E.g. (for my pet peeve) X11 window manager authors used to ignore ICCCM requirement that gravity hint for ConfigureRequest should be interpreted as for initial mapping of the window. Everyone just "knew" that - nobody bohered to publish a new standard or a new version of ICCCM. Then Gnome/KDE folks came and implemented ICCCM to the letter, honoring the gravity hint on ConfigureRequest's. Most programs don't care - but as soon as you need to depend on how this part of ICCCM is implemented by WM - you're thoroughly screwed because you just can't tell which "dialect" of ICCCM the WM is implementing. Also look how Unicode Consortium has been maintaining backward compatibility *religiously*. Even the most obvious and stupid mistakes are not corrected "in situ" - the only way they accept is to declare the old "buggy" char obsolete (and keep it as it is) and add a new, correct one. > But standards change. New RFCs obsolete, modify, invalidate old ones > -- happens all the time in all domains... But you don't claim you are implementing RFC X, when you actually implement RFC Y. > This particular standard -- koi8-r -- was introduced by you, and it > increasingly looks like your personal attachment to it is affecting > your judgement. Mmmm, ad hominem attacks... Who's running out of arguments here? ;) Users are free to use koi8-u or koi8-c fonts for koi8-r text if they know what they are doing (and reap what they saw if things go bad). Insituting this as an approved practice is a wholly different matter. This discussion so vividly reminds me of early 1990s flamewars about russification of unix apps and horrible hacks that were involved. You proposal is at the level of those hacks. I have no doubts that you have best intentions, it's just they pave the same old road. SY, Uwe -- uwe@ptc.spbu.ru | Zu Grunde kommen http://www.ptc.spbu.ru/~uwe/ | Ist zu Grunde gehen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Sep 5 11:16:50 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931F137B400; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443D543E7B; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 11:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g85IGUPW060424 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:16:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-u" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: "Andrey A. Chernov" , Mikhail Teterin Subject: recap (Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:17:39 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209050018.15176@aldan> <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru> In-Reply-To: <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200209051417.39255.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There are two issues here, which get mixed up and are thus hard to follow: 1) ${X11BASE}/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic is populated by Russian fonts, which lack several characters not found in Russian alphabet, but used in other languages (Macedonian, Ukrainian, etc.). The proposed solution is to replace those koi8-r fonts in there with the koi8-u or koi8-c fonts. This solution will not deviate from any standard, but might confuse some users (and applications), who, in their ignorance, only know about the koi8-r 2) Since the characters replaced in koi8-r by the koi8-u and koi8-c are rarely if ever used, the confusion may be aleviated by (optionally and/or by default) installing fonts.aliases file in the lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic directory, which will map the koi8-u or koi8-c fonts to koi8-r (something x11-fonts/geminifonts is already doing) This will provide for smoother transition, but is fiercely opposed by Andrey here on the grounds, that the new fonts.aliases will call "koi8-r" something, that is not quite "koi8-r", no matter how miniscule the difference is. I'm proposing we ignore this particular opposition, because what's currently being installed into lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic by the stock XFree86 is not koi8-r either, so installing those aliases will not break anything, that is not already broken. Andrey suggests, the new (supposedly -- corrected) koi8-r fonts be installed there in addition to koi8-u and/or koi8-c. Although, this will be the most standard compliant, I find it wasteful of the diskspace and X-server memory, because: a) No existing application relies on the few pseudographics replaced in the koi8-r by the new koi8-c and koi8-u with more Cyrillic (but not Russian) letters. Andrey finally named Russian FIDO conferences as a counterexample, but even those require the updated koi8-r fonts -- the ones, that are a part of XFree86 at the moment will not work anyway. b) New applications should be encouraged to use the more complete charsets such as koi8-u or koi8-c instead c) The true-to-the-letter koi8-r and/or koi8-u fonts can be installed by those few, who actually need them from the optional ports (russian/X.language, x11-fonts/geminifonts). I would like to propose, that the fontsCyrillic port be modified (once again) to always install the koi8-c fonts (issue 1 above). It should also install (in separate subdirectories) fonts.aliases for koi8-r and koi8-u as described above (issue 2) and advise the user, that if they need the strict standard compliance for some reason, they should install the corresponding fontsets separately using the other ports. Those ports will then be able to remove the "dummy" fonts.aliases files... The next round of bickering follows. My responses inlined: On Thursday 05 September 2002 12:38 am, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: = On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:18:15 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = = > provide the entire KOI8-R, the X11 does not and thus no app will = > rely on it. I understand the compatibility issues, and I know, = > that no vendor would write an application, that uses those special = > characters -- because of, uhm, compatibility issues... = = Applications which follow standards will do. No standard _requires_ an application to use those symbols while the brokennes of the most widely installed fonts (earlier Cronyx ones) _prevents_ them from doing so. Hence, no such application exists. = There is no differences koi8-r vs. koi8-u and 8859-1 vs. 8859-15 in the = matter we discuss. = = > And lack of counterexamples from you implies, that you are too. The = = Counterexamples are easy, f.e. FIDO newsgroups gated which use full = KOI8-R pseudographics. Reading those in "full beauty" requires installing the separate port -- of updated Cronyx fonts -- anyway. My claim, that no application exists, that makes use of those few symbols stands. = > Sometimes a standard is discarded even without a formal replacement = > -- even in FreeBSD (tcp_drop_synfin, for example). This particular = > standard -- koi8-r -- was introduced by you, and it increasingly = > looks like your personal attachment to it is affecting your = > judgement. = koi8-r is not called back or discarded, it means it will stay forever. = If you are not happy with koi8-r - make your own standard and tell = people to use it. The two standards are already made -- koi8-u, and an even more complete koi8-c (which your web-pages misleadingly claim to be for "ancient Russian texts"). And I *am* telling people to use it. In this very thread, in fact. And people do -- check your own ${X11BASE}/lib/X11/locale/koi8-c. It is just that there are no matching fonts installed by default and if one wonders into where they are supposed to be -- lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic -- one will only find Russian fonts in there. -mi -- Как, Вы разве без шпаги пришли? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Sep 5 12:42:40 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D40D37B400; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEEE43E6A; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: from pobrecita.freebsd.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g85JgKau022231; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:42:23 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by pobrecita.freebsd.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g85JgHp9022229; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:42:18 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:42:15 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: Mikhail Teterin , i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev , anholt@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: recap (Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u) Message-ID: <20020905194212.GA21959@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209050018.15176@aldan> <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru> <200209051417.39255.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200209051417.39255.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I don't comment Mikhail's nonprofessional proposals I already comment, only new nonprofessional ones: > be the most standard compliant, I find it wasteful of the diskspace and > X-server memory, because: There can be port's Makefile knobs to turn off any of unneeded charset, knobs not active by default. F.e. I don't need to waste space and memory on koi8-u and koi8-c. Even all 3 are installed, they can be turned off in Xfree86 Config. > a) No existing application relies on the few pseudographics > replaced in the koi8-r by the new koi8-c and koi8-u with more > Cyrillic (but not Russian) letters. Any existen application which use or switch X11 font relies on it. > Andrey finally named Russian FIDO conferences as a counterexample, > but even those require the updated koi8-r fonts -- the ones, that > are a part of XFree86 at the moment will not work anyway. And what? It means only that Cronyx fonts needs more fixing. > b) New applications should be encouraged to use the more complete > charsets such as koi8-u or koi8-c instead Applications are not people and can't be encouraged. They simple use what user tells them to use. And user may tell to use koi8-r. > No standard _requires_ an application to use those symbols while the > brokennes of the most widely installed fonts (earlier Cronyx ones) > _prevents_ them from doing so. Hence, no such application exists. Usually application don't know about brokennes of some fonts, this abstract level is below application control, it just use font, some unknown font. > Reading those in "full beauty" requires installing the separate port -- > of updated Cronyx fonts -- anyway. My claim, that no application exists, > that makes use of those few symbols stands. There is a lot of them, f.e. xterm. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Thu Sep 5 12:45: 0 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2CC37B405 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E7CD43E65 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: from pobrecita.freebsd.ru (ache@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nagual.pp.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g85Jicau022298; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:44:38 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache@pobrecita.freebsd.ru) Received: (from ache@localhost) by pobrecita.freebsd.ru (8.12.5/8.12.5/Submit) id g85Jib1L022297; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:44:37 +0400 (MSD) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:44:35 +0400 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "Valeriy E. Ushakov" Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <20020905194434.GB21959@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209041155.15033.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> <200209050018.15176@aldan> <20020905130755.GA14301@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20020905130755.GA14301@snark.ptc.spbu.ru> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 17:07:55 +0400, Valeriy E. Ushakov wrote: > On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:18:15 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > > = ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern", > > = but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts > > = everywhere and so on. > > > > I would suggest just that -- if no application really uses those 8 > > characters. > > *chuckle*... This is not something one would say openly if one wants > to be qualified to have an informed opinion on the subject of standard > compliance. ;) > > ... etc. Hear wise words! I completely agree with every your statement. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri Sep 6 0:14:16 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E078437B400; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359B443E65; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:14:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.gmd.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g867Dph07598; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:13:52 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 09:13:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" , Mikhail Teterin , , Maxim Sobolev , Subject: Re: recap (Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u) In-Reply-To: <200209051417.39255.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Message-ID: <20020906090027.J6320-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Sep 2002, Mikhail Teterin wrote: MT>Andrey suggests, the new (supposedly -- corrected) koi8-r fonts be MT>installed there in addition to koi8-u and/or koi8-c. Although, this will MT>be the most standard compliant, I find it wasteful of the diskspace and MT>X-server memory, because: Given that fonts/cyrillic is only about 1MByte and that you can control which of the fonts get loaded with the fontpath and compared to other bloat I see no waste here. MT> b) New applications should be encouraged to use the more complete MT> charsets such as koi8-u or koi8-c instead The problem for me as a user is, that I don't have much influence on what an application does. When I load a webpage, that claims to need koi8-r, then I expect my browser to find a koi8-r font. I really don't want to fiddle with X or browser options to get the page displayed. RFC-1489 is not marked as obsolete, so people will countinue to use it and, honestly, I don't see a reason to remove support even if it would be obsoleted. I don't see any reason to be too religious about this font matter. Make a couple of options to the ports in question so that individual users, who are short on disk space are able to not install one or the other font. Or make three ports for koi8-[ruc]. harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.gmd.de, brandt@fokus.fhg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri Sep 6 8:11:31 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D0237B400; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corbulon.video-collage.com (corbulon.video-collage.com [64.35.99.179]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB3E43E6A; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) Received: from misha.murex.com (250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217]) by corbulon.video-collage.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g86FBDPW088882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:11:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com) X-Authentication-Warning: corbulon.video-collage.com: Host 250-217.customer.cloud9.net [168.100.250.217] claimed to be misha.murex.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Mikhail Teterin Organization: Virtual Estates, Inc. To: Harti Brandt Subject: Re: recap (Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 11:12:23 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2 Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" , Mikhail Teterin , , Maxim Sobolev , References: <20020906090027.J6320-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> In-Reply-To: <20020906090027.J6320-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <200209061112.23386.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.15 (www dot roaringpenguin dot com slash mimedefang) Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday 06 September 2002 03:13 am, Harti Brandt wrote: = On Thu, 5 Sep 2002, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = = MT>Andrey suggests, the new (supposedly -- corrected) koi8-r fonts be = MT>installed there in addition to koi8-u and/or koi8-c. Although, this will = MT>be the most standard compliant, I find it wasteful of the diskspace and = MT>X-server memory, because: = = Given that fonts/cyrillic is only about 1MByte and that you can control = which of the fonts get loaded with the fontpath and compared to other = bloat I see no waste here. Actually, 1Mb of _dead weight_ is plenty in my book. Having all three fontsets will triple that... = MT> b) New applications should be encouraged to use the more complete = MT> charsets such as koi8-u or koi8-c instead = = The problem for me as a user is, that I don't have much influence on = what an application does. When I load a webpage, that claims to need = koi8-r, then I expect my browser to find a koi8-r font. I really don't = want to fiddle with X or browser options to get the page displayed. You are absolutely right. This is the problem my point 2) was trying to address. Install fonts.aliases files, which will provide the same functionality the stock XFree86 install currently provides. No web-pages use those characters (nothing does, for the characters were not implemented in the versions of the fonts currently coming with XFree86). = RFC-1489 is not marked as obsolete, so people will countinue to use it = and, honestly, I don't see a reason to remove support even if it would = be obsoleted. FreeBSD, generally, removes parts considered obsolete -- be that drivers for obsolete hardware (pre-IDE disks) or software packages (uucp). In the later case, the removed software is turned into a port... Marking the RFC-1489 is what I'm beginning to campaing for :-) = I don't see any reason to be too religious about this font matter. The "religious" overtones come from the frustration over the ignorance, with which some people equate "Cyrillic" and "Russian" (BTW, "Soviet" and "Russian" is a related problem). The alphabet was created in the 9th century BC, apparently, in Monrovia -- about three centuries before Moscow was founded (and pretty far from its future location too)... = Make a couple of options to the ports in question so that individual = users, who are short on disk space are able to not install one or the = other font. Or make three ports for koi8-[ruc]. Of course. The "religious battle" is over what is to be the _default_ install. Andrey wants it to always include the modern koi8-r fonts, so the FIDO newsgroups can be read. He claims, doing otherwise would cause standard breakage totally ignoring the fact, that the standard is currently broken (the X11's koi8-r fonts are not, in fact, koi8-r) and no new breakage is being proposed. I think, koi8-c should be the default with aliases pointing to koi8-u and koi8-r. Whoever is currently installing the new koi8-r fonts through Andrey's port(s) will still be able to do that if they require it. But the casual users will not have to install all three. Maxim already made fonts/cyrillic be filled with koi8-u with the aliases for koi8-r. He did not know, I guess, about koi8-c. Neither did I until you told me :-) -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-i18n Fri Sep 6 8:53:15 2002 Delivered-To: freebsd-i18n@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A7D37B400; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (mailhub.fokus.gmd.de [193.174.154.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41C743E6E; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brandt@fokus.gmd.de) Received: from beagle (beagle [193.175.132.100]) by mailhub.fokus.gmd.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g86Fqth12465; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:52:56 +0200 (MEST) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:52:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Harti Brandt To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: Harti Brandt , "Andrey A. Chernov" , Mikhail Teterin , , Maxim Sobolev , Subject: Re: recap (Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u) In-Reply-To: <200209061112.23386.mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> Message-ID: <20020906173418.Y816-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-i18n@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Sep 2002, Mikhail Teterin wrote: MT>On Friday 06 September 2002 03:13 am, Harti Brandt wrote: MT>= Given that fonts/cyrillic is only about 1MByte and that you can control MT>= which of the fonts get loaded with the fontpath and compared to other MT>= bloat I see no waste here. MT> MT>Actually, 1Mb of _dead weight_ is plenty in my book. Having all three MT>fontsets will triple that... 1085 /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/cyrillic 173724 /usr/X11R6 I can't really see that point. MT>= RFC-1489 is not marked as obsolete, so people will countinue to use it MT>= and, honestly, I don't see a reason to remove support even if it would MT>= be obsoleted. MT> MT>FreeBSD, generally, removes parts considered obsolete -- be that drivers MT>for obsolete hardware (pre-IDE disks) or software packages (uucp). In MT>the later case, the removed software is turned into a port... Oh well, that may be true, but even FreeBSD doesn't remove features that a lot of people use. I'm NOT talking about using those characters in question, but about using the font name koi8-r. The are millions of web pages that specify charset="koi8-r". And, well, we don't want to move 'obsolete' features from /usr/ports to /usr/portsports :-) MT>Marking the RFC-1489 is what I'm beginning to campaing for :-) Better start getting rid of EBCDIC :-) (It's still in dd). MT>The "religious" overtones come from the frustration over the ignorance, MT>with which some people equate "Cyrillic" and "Russian" (BTW, "Soviet" MT>and "Russian" is a related problem). The alphabet was created in the MT>9th century BC, apparently, in Monrovia -- about three centuries before MT>Moscow was founded (and pretty far from its future location too)... I always recognized koi8-r as "cyrillic font for russian" and koi8-u as "cyrrillic font for ukrainian". At least RFC-2319 says that koi8-u is ukrainian. MT>I think, koi8-c should be the default with aliases pointing to koi8-u MT>and koi8-r. Whoever is currently installing the new koi8-r fonts through MT>Andrey's port(s) will still be able to do that if they require it. But MT>the casual users will not have to install all three. So we all agree on that there should be (standard conform) koi8-[ruc] fonts available. The question is whether to install all of them per default or to install only koi8-c and make koi8-[ru] aliases. For me it doesn't matter. I really would like to see koi8-c (I love the old russian orthography). Make a STRICT_RFC knob to the make file to install all three fonts. harti -- harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private brandt@fokus.gmd.de, brandt@fokus.fhg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message