From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 16 11:51:47 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E27B816A417 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:51:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from tower.berklix.org (tower.berklix.org [83.236.223.114]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E85413C43E for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:51:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from js.berklix.net (p549A42DC.dip.t-dialin.net [84.154.66.220]) (authenticated bits=0) by tower.berklix.org (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id lBGBpjgL072188; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:51:46 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id lBGBqFWe029657; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:52:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.org) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost.js.berklix.net [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id lBGBq5qT044068; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:52:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jhs@fire.js.berklix.net) Message-Id: <200712161152.lBGBq5qT044068@fire.js.berklix.net> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sd=E4vtaker?= In-reply-to: <476410F4.4010706@gmail.com> References: <476410F4.4010706@gmail.com> Comments: In-reply-to =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sd=E4vtaker?= message dated "Sat, 15 Dec 2007 14:37:56 -0300." Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:52:05 +0100 From: "Julian H. Stacey" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New BUG? X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 11:51:48 -0000 > What you think, should i start the papers and talking to directives in > the university? > Thank you for any advice you can give me. People with experience running BSD user groups are on an adjacent list: freebsd-user-groups@freebsd.org better ask there instead. -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com Ihr Rauch = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. Dump cigs 4 snuff. From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 16 19:52:50 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3310216A417 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:52:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguel@anjos.strangled.net) Received: from mailrly03.isp.novis.pt (mailrly03.isp.novis.pt [195.23.133.213]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567E613C442 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:52:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguel@anjos.strangled.net) Received: (qmail 29221 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2007 19:52:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailfrt11.isp.novis.pt) ([195.23.133.227]) (envelope-sender ) by mailrly03.isp.novis.pt with compressed SMTP; 16 Dec 2007 19:52:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 19671 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2007 19:52:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO satan.anjos.strangled.net) ([89.180.106.57]) (envelope-sender ) by mailfrt11.isp.novis.pt with SMTP; 16 Dec 2007 19:52:46 -0000 Received: from satan.anjos.strangled.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by satan.anjos.strangled.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id lBGJqeWj034918; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:52:41 GMT (envelope-from miguel@satan.anjos.strangled.net) Received: (from miguel@localhost) by satan.anjos.strangled.net (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id lBGJqdSZ034917; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:52:39 GMT (envelope-from miguel) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:52:39 GMT From: Miguel Lopes Santos Ramos Message-Id: <200712161952.lBGJqdSZ034917@satan.anjos.strangled.net> To: emailgrant@gmail.com, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <49bf44f10712131235v2d73a412k81ca9714911bfccd@mail.gmail.com> Cc: Subject: Re: Current Gentoo user X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:52:50 -0000 > From: Grant > > > On FreeBSD, the ports collection is only used for addons to the base system; the > > base system could be compared to a stage-3 tarball except that it is much more > > complete (cron, syslog, dhclient, bind9, openssh, tcsh, nvi, ncurses, sendmail, > > pam, opie, telnet, ftp, traceroute, to name a few are installed in the base system) > > so you really can have an operational base system. > > For instance, if you want to install a web server, perhaps the base system + > > apache is enough, the same goes for database server. > > Typically, the base system plus what is required for your application. > > Not so with Gentoo. > > I really like the Gentoo concept here. > > > Because such fundamental services such as cron, syslog, etc are on the base > > system, most things also come much more configured than they do on Gentoo. > > It is a lot more work to get things going on Gentoo. > > Even so, FreeBSD is clean enough to fit in about 250MB. > > Having a thoroughly working base system does sound really nice. Yes. Both approaches have their advantages. Gentoo is neat, but there's less problems on FreeBSD. > That doesn't sound very good. I've got to be able to use Linux apps. > That's for sure. Apps compiled for Linux run. Huge apps like MATLAB or Mathematica run out of the box with a few tweaks. There's doom and the like on the ports collection. Currently it seems that FreeBSD emulates a 2.6.16 kernel. Typically there's only problems with dependencies. Apps that come on CD usually only depend on the most basic components such as glibc, so they usually run. I happen to have trouble with google-earth. > Configuring the kernel with menuconfig is a pain. How is it handled > differently with FreeBSD? You may find it old fashioned, but it's a plain text file. There are a lot less options than on Linux, there's no support for lots of archane hardware as there is on Linux. Once you have your kernel config file done you rarely have to change it. Updating is a matter of running make update and then make kernel. On Gentoo it is a lot more trouble. Updating installs a new package, every new version of the kernel is a new package. Then you have to manually copy your old config file to the new kernel tree and go through menuconfig to see that everything is ok. > > Perhaps it's my lack of experience. > > On FreeBSD, you can compile the kernel every day with no trouble at all, even > > the whole base system weekly, if you're so inclined. I can't be objective, but I > > think in this respect FreeBSD is much, much, much better. > > Can you tell me more about what you mean here? How is it much better? > Easier kernel management? Updating the base system does not require a config file... You just run make update, make buildworld, then mergemaster and make installworld. You'd have to see in the manual. Mergemaster takes care of merging the new configuration files from the source tree taking care not to erase your own changes to the configuration files. Once again, Gentoo is more trouble. It does not erase your configuration files but you have to manually check all the ._cfg* files that are created to see if there's anything new that is important. I apologize Julian Stacey for insisting on this (maybe) off-topic thread but this is such a low volume list... Here's a bit of advocacy (you may disagree): One of the biggest pluses of FreeBSD is the file system. UFS2 supports softupdates and file system snapshots. These days I never thought I could go wrong in choosing ext3 for servers at work. The fact is that in two years only I had lots of file system related problems which I never ever did have on FreeBSD. Snapshots: you can create a snapshot of a live mounted file system, so that you can fsck or backup a coherent view of the file system while users are still using it. This means that you don't have to schedule backups to the weekend (in the hope that noone will be using the system). This also means that fscks at boot don't stop the system from running, they will be done in the background. With ext3, I had big trouble one day someone turned one server on in the morning and then it didn't work (because of fsck) and turned it off and on again (during fsck). One ext3 file system suffered severe damage. Even with interrupt-level crashes on FreeBSD, I never had file system damage. Snapshots again: why perform on-site backups? If your hard disks are new or you're using RAID, doing weekly or daily file system snapshots will protect you from accidental file deletion. Repair is easier than from huge tar archives: just mount the snapshot somewhere and copy the user-or-program-destroyed file to the live filesystem. With weekly snapshots, there's only need for RAID and off-site backups. Another big plus of FreeBSD: the mailing-lists work, ocasionally your message may be disregarded among others, but still, it works much better than anything on Gentoo and people usually are more technically skilled. Sign to questions@ for general user (admin counts as user) questions and to stable@ if you're tracking RELENG_7 regularly (updating your system via cvsup regularly). That's all I can say. Sorry Julian Stacey, but sometimes it's faster just to answer the questions. Miguel Lisboa From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Dec 16 19:57:42 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D3016A419 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:57:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguel@anjos.strangled.net) Received: from mailrly05.isp.novis.pt (mailrly05.isp.novis.pt [195.23.133.215]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CAC013C447 for ; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:57:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from miguel@anjos.strangled.net) Received: (qmail 1376 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2007 19:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailfrt13.isp.novis.pt) ([195.23.133.222]) (envelope-sender ) by mailrly05.isp.novis.pt with compressed SMTP; 16 Dec 2007 19:57:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 8839 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2007 19:57:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO satan.anjos.strangled.net) ([89.180.106.57]) (envelope-sender ) by mailfrt13.isp.novis.pt with SMTP; 16 Dec 2007 19:57:39 -0000 Received: from satan.anjos.strangled.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by satan.anjos.strangled.net (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id lBGJvTLV034996; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:57:29 GMT (envelope-from miguel@satan.anjos.strangled.net) Received: (from miguel@localhost) by satan.anjos.strangled.net (8.14.2/8.14.2/Submit) id lBGJvTk2034995; Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:57:29 GMT (envelope-from miguel) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:57:29 GMT From: Miguel Lopes Santos Ramos Message-Id: <200712161957.lBGJvTk2034995@satan.anjos.strangled.net> To: emailgrant@gmail.com, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <49bf44f10712132026p21717597wc6e592a1a19dad4e@mail.gmail.com> Cc: Subject: Re: Current Gentoo user X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:57:42 -0000 > From: Grant > > I just had a search through the FreeBSD ports list and just about > everything I user is listed there. gnucash, gimp, firefox, etc. Does > that mean they are work perfectly on FreeBSD? > > - Grant Of course... those aren't Linux apps, they work flawlessly on lots of operating systems (even on Windows!). Add mplayer to that and lots of other closer-to-the-hardware apps. Java also works fine and native. Anything you see on the ports collection will work, generally only closed-source apps need Linux emulation. Open-source ones run native. Even lots of closed-source apps run just fine in Linux emulation. Some vendors even provide FreeBSD-specific software, such as the nvidia driver for FreeBSD. Greetings, Miguel From owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Dec 20 03:49:36 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B3E16A417 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:49:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from supernews.unixathome.org (supernews.unixathome.org [216.168.29.4]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DEB013C45A for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:49:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dan@langille.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by supernews.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7EF17086 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:34:34 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at unixathome.org Received: from supernews.unixathome.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (supernews.unixathome.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqGzCEQmEeAK for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:34:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from laptop.unixathome.org (p1070.clients.superclick.com [71.242.99.130]) by supernews.unixathome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7236F17079 for ; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:34:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4769E2C1.1060406@langille.org> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 22:34:25 -0500 From: Dan Langille Organization: The FreeBSD Diary User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (X11/20071215) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: BSDCan 2008 - call for papers X-BeenThere: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: FreeBSD Evangelism List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 03:49:36 -0000 Hello folks, BSDCan 2008 will be held 16-17 May, 2008 in Ottawa at the University of Ottawa. It will be preceded by two days of tutorials on 14-15 May 2008. We are now accepting proposals for papers. The papers should be written with a very strong technical content bias. Papers and proposals of a business development or marketing nature are not appropriate for this venue. If you are doing something interesting with a BSD operating system, please submit a proposal. You might be developing a very complex system using BSD as the foundation. Perhaps you are helping others and have a story to tell about how BSD played a role. People using BSD as a platform for research are also encouraged to submit a proposal. Perhaps you may want to write a paper such as: * How we manage a giant installation with respect to handling spam. * and/or sysadmin. * and/or networking. Both users and developers are encouraged to share their experiences. The schedule is: 19 Dec 2007 Proposal acceptance begins 19 Jan 2008 Proposal acceptance ends 19 Feb 2008 Confirmation of accepted proposals 19 Apr 2008 Formatted final papers must arrive no later than this date NOTE: This is the schedule for formal papers. We are also accepting submissions for less formal talks and presentations through the same procedures. See also Instructions for submitting a proposal to BSDCan 2008 are available from: -- Dan Langille - http://www.langille.org/ BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference: http://www.bsdcan.org/ PGCon - The PostgreSQL Confernce: http://www.pgcon.org/