From owner-freebsd-doc Sun Jan 21 07:24:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA20063 for doc-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:24:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA20043 Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA05360; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 10:24:24 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 10:24:23 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-Reply-To: <199601201712.SAA20327@allegro.lemis.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > So, the question: which other documentation should be in paper form? > For a gut feel, I'd say we could handle another 1500 to 2000 pages. *Personally* (and many have differing opinions), I like printed documentation for * installation * dump and restore * fsck * disklabel * newfs * maybe a couple others Or, more generally, for things you rarely use and consequently forget how to use and, almost by definition, online documentation is unavailable when you need them. I've got a couple other manual pages printed out, but on the whole, I prefer to keep it online. Since its birth, I've only printed out the Handbook once. As I said, others will have different opinions and I won't argue against them. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-doc Sun Jan 21 09:38:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA26408 for doc-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 09:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.95.74]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA26390 Sun, 21 Jan 1996 09:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from robert@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id MAA02722; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:38:48 -0500 Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:38:48 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson To: John Fieber cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk I'd add a list of standard stuff, loosely based on a similar handbook provided by BSDI with BSD/OS of various versions. It might include: + How to use the man command, online help of other types -- an overview of lynx if it is the standard browser used now for the online handbook under a new installation. + Description of the file tree -- common locations for files, etc. Also perhaps a list of /etc config files, and a one line description of each, with a reference to the appropriate man page or handbook section. + Configuring ppp and internet connectivity + Adding users; information about the FreeBSD group, passwd, master.passwd, etc... Maybe information on NIS configuration as an appendix + Configuring serial terminals and dialup lines + Specific device issues such as - using a serial mouse under X - an overview of the kernel interactive configuration utility and a little on io ports and conflicts - an overview plus examples for recompiling the kernel to include common devices + a few pages on how to configure - a web server - a bootp server - ethernet cards + simple routing -- perhaps bootp client stuff, etc - anonymous ftp server - dns server Obviously a lot of this is covered in the FreeBSD handbook as is, but to have a simple few-pages guide to this would be great -- especially for a) new unix users and b) users experienced with different versions of unix who need some pointers to the particulars of BSD-style operating systems. Again, the BSDI handbook seems a good place to start looking for a quick guide reference. Not to say it's great for new users, just that in a small space it explains how to get most of the important details of internet connectivity and servers going. Having complete documentation in full form is good, but remembering my first experiences with running a BSD server (the first unix server type I ran) I remember spending a long time locating the configuration file I meant, or wondering how to set up a feature while help from more knowing sources came in. On Sun, 21 Jan 1996, John Fieber wrote: > On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > So, the question: which other documentation should be in paper form? > > For a gut feel, I'd say we could handle another 1500 to 2000 pages. > > *Personally* (and many have differing opinions), I like printed > documentation for > > * installation > * dump and restore > * fsck > * disklabel > * newfs > * maybe a couple others > > Or, more generally, for things you rarely use and consequently forget how > to use and, almost by definition, online documentation is unavailable when > you need them. > > I've got a couple other manual pages printed out, but on the whole, I > prefer to keep it online. Since its birth, I've only printed out the > Handbook once. > > As I said, others will have different opinions and I won't argue against > them. > > -john > > == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== > == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ > From owner-freebsd-doc Sun Jan 21 22:45:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA14383 for doc-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jan 1996 22:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from argus.flash.net (root@[206.149.24.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA14377 Sun, 21 Jan 1996 22:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lists@localhost) by argus.flash.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA03966; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:43:48 -0600 From: mailing list account Message-Id: <199601220643.AAA03966@argus.flash.net> Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:43:47 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "John Fieber" at Jan 21, 96 10:24:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk In reply: > On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > So, the question: which other documentation should be in paper form? > > For a gut feel, I'd say we could handle another 1500 to 2000 pages. > > *Personally* (and many have differing opinions), I like printed > documentation for > > * installation > * dump and restore > * fsck > * disklabel > * newfs > * maybe a couple others > > Or, more generally, for things you rarely use and consequently forget how > to use and, almost by definition, online documentation is unavailable when > you need them. > > I've got a couple other manual pages printed out, but on the whole, I > prefer to keep it online. Since its birth, I've only printed out the > Handbook once. > > As I said, others will have different opinions and I won't argue against > them. > > -john > > == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== > == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ It would be a good idea to get some of this stuff [that isn't already covered in the BSD Bibles, the URM, USD, SMM, PRM, and PSD [ISBN 1-56592-082-1]] in a book for publication. One of the reason for Linux's MARKET success is that reference books are readily available, right down to 'Dummies Guide' type books. Such a book could cover a lot of the routine traffic in these lists... Hmmm... Maybe even with the FreeBSD distribution disk pouched in the back cover! HMmmm... I'm just getting tired of walking into better bookstores and finding almost nothing but SysV and Linux crap in the unix section, Only once in the past countless years have I seen a book SPECIFICLY geared to BSD. Hell, you even have to special order the 4.4BSD manuals, and wait a few weeks... These bookstores make BSD the best kept secret in the industry! Jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" jbryant@argus.flash.net - FlashNet Communications - Ft. Worth, Texas From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Jan 22 04:23:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA06817 for doc-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:23:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA06772 Mon, 22 Jan 1996 04:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA27034; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:02:21 +1100 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:02:21 +1100 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199601221202.XAA27034@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jfieber@indiana.edu, lists@argus.flash.net Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm just getting tired of walking into better bookstores and finding almost >nothing but SysV and Linux crap in the unix section, Only once in the past >countless years have I seen a book SPECIFICLY geared to BSD. Hell, you even >have to special order the 4.4BSD manuals, and wait a few weeks... The 4.4 manuals were very visible in a bookstore in Sydney. At $400 (US $300), perhaps they aren't selling. Bruce From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Jan 22 07:27:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA20149 for doc-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 07:27:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA20122 Mon, 22 Jan 1996 07:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA03832; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:25:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:25:53 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: mailing list account cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-Reply-To: <199601220643.AAA03966@argus.flash.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, mailing list account wrote: > These bookstores make BSD the best kept secret in the industry! Hmmm... At least two bookstores around here (bloomington indiana) have the BSD4.4 manuals, multiple copies no less. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Jan 22 08:21:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA24290 for doc-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psiint.com (vv.psiint.com [204.189.53.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA24275 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by psiint.com (8.6.12/4.03) id IAA51762; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:21:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:21:36 -0800 (PST) From: Dave Walton To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-Reply-To: <199601220643.AAA03966@argus.flash.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, mailing list account wrote: > It would be a good idea to get some of this stuff [that isn't already covered > in the BSD Bibles, the URM, USD, SMM, PRM, and PSD [ISBN 1-56592-082-1]] in a > book for publication. One of the reason for Linux's MARKET success is that > reference books are readily available, right down to 'Dummies Guide' type > books. > > I'm just getting tired of walking into better bookstores and finding almost > nothing but SysV and Linux crap in the unix section, Only once in the past > countless years have I seen a book SPECIFICLY geared to BSD. Hell, you even > have to special order the 4.4BSD manuals, and wait a few weeks... > > These bookstores make BSD the best kept secret in the industry! This is a really good point. Has anyone approached O'Reilly about doing a book on FreeBSD? My roommate just bought the new second edition of their System Administration book, and it discusses Linux but not FreeBSD. Dave ========================================================================== David Walton Programmer PSI INTERNATIONAL, Inc. email: dwalton@psiint.com 190 South Orchard #C200 Fax :(707)451-6484 Vacaville, CA 95688 Phone:(707)451-3503 ========================================================================== From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Jan 22 13:12:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA13639 for doc-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13633 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA22420; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:10:49 -0800 To: Dave Walton cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:21:36 PST." Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:10:49 -0800 Message-ID: <22418.822345049@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is a really good point. Has anyone approached O'Reilly about doing > a book on FreeBSD? My roommate just bought the new second edition of > their System Administration book, and it discusses Linux but not FreeBSD. Yes. I was on the hook to do one, but sort of punted. I'd LIKE to do it, but time time time.. :-( Jordan From owner-freebsd-doc Mon Jan 22 14:22:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA21883 for doc-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (root@sivka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA21841 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvisti.kiev.ua (uucp@localhost) by sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with UUCP id AAA06819 for doc@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 00:23:06 +0200 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.33]) by spider2.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) with ESMTP id OAA14910 for ; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:42:52 +0200 Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id OAA15406; Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:42:51 +0200 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199601221242.OAA15406@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org To: lehey.pad@sni.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:42:50 +0200 (EET) Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199601181707.SAA22673@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Jan 18, 96 06:03:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk # > I formatted a new hard drive once, but I don't think I would be able to # > duplicate, much less describe, the experience. # # Of course not. It's indescribable :-) # # Greg # Please, here is the description of how I'm doing this. Disclaimer: worked for me on SCSI disks, maybe IDE has some differences? At least some variations of "BIOS LBA mode" and especially "PIO mode >= 2" didn't work for some of my friends. Disclaimer 2: I have a strong opinion that in case you do want to have more than one OS on your machine, for example 3 ones, you'd better have 3 boot partitions on your boot HDD, inside "whatever BIOS thinks to be the first 1024 cyls" area, and it's better to have FreeBSD to be installed _after_ all messydoses, os-half's or whatever. Generally this way of setting things up saves the time, though some people are doing another, more complex things too. Disclaimer 3: Last time I was adding a new disk was two days ago, when I was installing an IBM DPES 31080S 1.08Gb SCSI disk instead of a Conner CFP 1060S, which died. Just now I don't have a sacrificial disk to play with, I'm describing the procedure from memory. All errors and typos are mine. 1. 2.1 and later FreeBSD systems do have a copy of sysinstall program in /stand. You need to have 'gzipped executables' enabled in your kernel, though (GENERIC kernel has). 2. Add a new HDD and make the system recognize it correctly during the boot probe. I even do a low-level format of the disk with a DOS scsifmt utility, to be sure that the disk is virgin clean, no old bootloaders, partition tables, etc. 3. Launch /stand/sysinstall. Select "Custom" install, than "Partition" the disk. I presume you aren't adding a new boot disk :) For example you have sd0 and sd1 already here, so switch "on" only a checkbox for your new disk (i.e. sd2). 4. You get to a b/w screen of visual fdisk. Ok, you see an empty disk; I usually press "A" (this means "use All disk") here. YMMV, of course. For SCSI disks, after "A" command, when it asks about cooperation with other OSes, I answer "No", and than "Yes" ("Yes, I insist"). Geometry warnings are to be ignored for SCSI disks. Anyway, at this step you must perform all the actions similarly to those you do in DOS with it's fdisk -- to create a partition table which suit your needs. If you want to have not only a FreeBSD slice on this disk, but someone's else, I'd suggest booting DOS and create that "other" partition with dos' fdisk first. [... maybe a screen shapshots of visual fdisk must be added here? ...] For example, assume you have created a slice which is called sd2s3 with the above procedure (why "s3"? simply for example, if the disk is FreeBSD only, that will be sd2s1). 5. Than press "W" ("Write the partition table") here. Than "Yes", you really want it to be written now. Ok, your'e done with "partitions", or "slices" as they are called in UNIX world. Pressing "Q" will return you to the upper menu now. Note. Yes, there is another fdisk around, it is command-line oriented. You may use it, of course. But I found visual fdisk from sysinstall to be more convenient and less headache to use; and you don't need a 'bc' calculator handy to count sectors, cylinders and other mistery. :) BTW it seems to me that vizual fdisk has some useful buit-in deep magic in it. ;) 6. Now you'd like to sub-divide the fresh partition (slice) into pieces, let's call them "subslices" -- each one has it's own file system in it. Their names are derived from the slice name with adding a single letter to it. Some of the letters do have a "reserved" meaning: 'a' is for bootable filesystem, usually only a boot drive has one (sd0s1a, or sd0a); 'b' is for swap area (it won't have a filesystem on it); 'c' subslice is used for the purpose of accessing the whole FreeBSD slice, in our case it will be sd2s3c; DON'T TOUCH IT. 'd' [... I didn't see one since 2.1, is it still used? ...] The letters 'e' and further are to mark subslices which contain filesystems. So assume we have 1000000 sectors (500Mb) in our sd2s3 slice, and want to have 100Mb of swap area and 2 filesystems inside it, one is 300Mb and one is 100Mb. The first 123456 sectors of the disk are used by other OSes, we don't care. The program which is called "disklabel" is used for this purpose. /stand/sysinstall has a "visual disklabel" built-in, but I always was afraid that it will do something with my existing filesystems (it shows them all in it's menu, and I'm not brave enough to check what will it do :) So I'm using another, standalone disklabel program. So, after doing fdisk I quit from visual sysinstall and do disklabel -r -e sd2 7. disklabel will call your ${EDITOR} on a formatted disk label of a new slice (there's a single FreeBSD slice on sd2, our sd2s3, you remember?) The only line which you need to pay attention at is the following one starts with "c:" # size: offset: fstype: [ .... ] [... whatever is written here ...] c: 1000000 123456 unused 0 0 Those 1000000 sectors are those you will divide into parts. The next few minutes you'll fight with your ${EDITOR} and bc calculator, calculating offsets/sectors; at least, you'd get the following after your "c:" slice description: # size: offset: fstype: [ .... ] c: 1000000 123456 unused 0 0 b: 200000 123456 swap e: 600000 323456 4.2BSD 0 0 0 f: 200000 923456 4.2BSD 0 0 0 Make sure your b: e: f: subslices are not overlapping each other, and the last subslice (f:) doesn't go anywhere _after the last available disk sector_. Exit from your editor, saving the file; disklabel will write an edited label to disk. 8. Subslices are created; now create file systems inside them: newfs /dev/rsd2s3e newfs /dev/rsd2s3f Reading newfs manpage will be Ok before using it :) 9. Check are they Ok: fsck /dev/rsd2s3e fsck /dev/rsd2s3f 10. You are done. Auto mounting new filesystems on reboot? Edit /etc/fstab accordingly. -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 An undocumented feature is a coding error. From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 00:58:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA16519 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 00:58:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA16468 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 00:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA14999 for freebsd-doc@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:56:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199601230856.JAA14999@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? To: dwalton@psiint.com (Dave Walton) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 9:52:28 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, andyo@ora.com In-Reply-To: ; from "Dave Walton" at Jan 22, 96 8:21 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, mailing list account wrote: > > > It would be a good idea to get some of this stuff [that isn't already covered > > in the BSD Bibles, the URM, USD, SMM, PRM, and PSD [ISBN 1-56592-082-1]] in a > > book for publication. One of the reason for Linux's MARKET success is that > > reference books are readily available, right down to 'Dummies Guide' type > > books. > > > > I'm just getting tired of walking into better bookstores and finding almost > > nothing but SysV and Linux crap in the unix section, Only once in the past > > countless years have I seen a book SPECIFICLY geared to BSD. Hell, you even > > have to special order the 4.4BSD manuals, and wait a few weeks... > > > > These bookstores make BSD the best kept secret in the industry! > > This is a really good point. Has anyone approached O'Reilly about doing > a book on FreeBSD? My roommate just bought the new second edition of > their System Administration book, and it discusses Linux but not FreeBSD. Yes, I did. For those of you who don't know, I wrote a book (Porting UNIX Software) for O'Reilly, and am planning another one. Andy Oram, my editor, was quite interested, but when he presented it to the rest of the staff, there was little interest. That could change, of course. Greg From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 02:12:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA23072 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:12:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA23055 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA19766 for freebsd-doc@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:12:15 +0100 Message-Id: <199601231012.LAA19766@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:08:21 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <22418.822345049@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 22, 96 1:10 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > This is a really good point. Has anyone approached O'Reilly about doing > > a book on FreeBSD? My roommate just bought the new second edition of > > their System Administration book, and it discusses Linux but not FreeBSD. > > Yes. I was on the hook to do one, but sort of punted. I'd LIKE to > do it, but time time time.. :-( Huh? With ORA? Who were you talking to? Greg From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 02:15:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA23213 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA23208 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA06938; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:14:32 -0800 To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:08:21 +0700." <199601231012.LAA19757@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:14:32 -0800 Message-ID: <6936.822392072@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > > This is a really good point. Has anyone approached O'Reilly about doing > > > a book on FreeBSD? My roommate just bought the new second edition of > > > their System Administration book, and it discusses Linux but not FreeBSD. > > > > Yes. I was on the hook to do one, but sort of punted. I'd LIKE to > > do it, but time time time.. :-( > > Huh? With ORA? Who were you talking to? Tim O'Reilly (on several occasions) and then later one of his editors; don't remember the name now, but it will come to me. AW was also pretty interested, but I never followed up. Jordan From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 04:56:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA13409 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.osmre.gov (nomad.osmre.gov [192.243.129.244]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA13398 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:56:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gfoster@localhost) by nomad.osmre.gov (8.6.12/8.6.9) id HAA12347; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:51:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:51:10 -0500 From: Glen Foster Message-Id: <199601231251.HAA12347@nomad.osmre.gov> To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199601221242.OAA15406@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> (stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua) Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Thanks to Andrew for the "install second disk" methodology, I just have a couple of questions. Since the "visual fdisk" part of sysinstall is so much easier to use than the CLI fdisk, why shouldn't the "visual disklabel" part of sysinstall be the standard way to BSD partition a slice? I remember that I did this once, perhaps with 2.0R, does it no longer work? Or is it just that you should (have to?) re-define the mount points for your existing partiions? Perhaps sysinstall should read fstab and offer its mounts as a default? I know that Jordan is working hard on sysinstall, is one of the design goals to make it more modular enabling use of the fdisk/disklabel parts as separate utilities? If not, perhaps this mode could be enabled wth a command line switch, e.g. 'sysinstall -fdisk', and/or 'sysinstall -disklabel', reducing the "noise" of the other parts of sysinstall? Perhaps the disk to be added could be an argument to a switch? Also, if one does not have 'options gzip' in the kernel, is gunzip'ing the sysinstall program and then running it a viable option? If so, perhaps mentioning it might make the neophyte's job easier, I know many are reluctant to do kernel rebuilds or don't have the kernel sources installed. Glen Foster From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 06:30:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA22723 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA22716 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA10987; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:30:03 -0800 To: Glen Foster cc: doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:51:10 EST." <199601231251.HAA12347@nomad.osmre.gov> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:30:03 -0800 Message-ID: <10985.822407403@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > I know that Jordan is working hard on sysinstall, is one of the design > goals to make it more modular enabling use of the fdisk/disklabel > parts as separate utilities? If not, perhaps this mode could be Yes. Jordan From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 09:09:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA02632 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02627 Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:09:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA26395; Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:05:24 -0600 Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.38.193.4/SMI-4.1 (1.38.193.4)) id AA04893; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:05:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:05:12 -0700 From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Message-Id: <9601231705.AA04893@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> To: jfieber@indiana.edu Cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org, doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from John Fieber on Sun, 21 Jan 1996 10:24:23 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "John" == John Fieber writes: John> * installation * dump and restore * fsck * disklabel * John> newfs * maybe a couple others John> Or, more generally, for things you rarely use and John> consequently forget how to use and, almost by definition, John> online documentation is unavailable when you need them. Like adding a new drive to an existing system. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory, Boulder Colorado USA Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny. -- Jack Handey From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 09:21:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA03960 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03955 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:21:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA09360; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:21:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:21:00 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: Sean Kelly cc: grog@lemis.de, doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-Reply-To: <9601231705.AA04893@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > John> Or, more generally, for things you rarely use and > John> consequently forget how to use and, almost by definition, > John> online documentation is unavailable when you need them. > > Like adding a new drive to an existing system. When adding a drive to an existing system, I would assume that you would have access to on-line documentation. Of course, in this case even that is scarce. The one I like is the boot(8). If you can get to it, you probably don't need it. If you need it, you probably can't get to it. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 09:54:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA05952 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA05942 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA26831; Tue, 23 Jan 96 11:53:46 -0600 Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.38.193.4/SMI-4.1 (1.38.193.4)) id AA05155; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:53:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:53:16 -0700 From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Message-Id: <9601231753.AA05155@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> To: jfieber@indiana.edu Cc: grog@lemis.de, doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from John Fieber on Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:21:00 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "John" == John Fieber writes: John> The one I like is the boot(8). If you can get to it, you John> probably don't need it. If you need it, you probably can't John> get to it. Ah, now I see. You're talking about bootstrapping documentation, or documentation you need when you're system's not functioning, or similar circumstances. Aye, we need this, too. That's yet another part of our doc deficit. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory, Boulder Colorado USA If they ever come up with a swashbuckling school, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something. -- Jack Handey From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 11:34:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA10601 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from wireless.Stanford.EDU (wireless.Stanford.EDU [36.10.0.102]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10588 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from akyol@localhost) by wireless.Stanford.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.6) id LAA09173; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:34:46 -0800 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:34:45 -0800 (PST) From: Bora Akyol cc: doc@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-Reply-To: <9601231705.AA04893@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > >>>>> "John" == John Fieber writes: > > John> * installation * dump and restore * fsck * disklabel * > John> newfs * maybe a couple others > > John> Or, more generally, for things you rarely use and > John> consequently forget how to use and, almost by definition, > John> online documentation is unavailable when you need them. > > Like adding a new drive to an existing system. > > -- > Sean Kelly > NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory, Boulder Colorado USA > > Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first > instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she > fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny. -- Jack Handey > By the way, How complete are the O'reilly books that are on 4.4BSD. I browsed through and thought that they were mostly man pages. I am thinking about buying them but do not know if it's worth it. Thanks Bora ps. If one of you is the author of those books, I don't mean to put down your work, I am just looking for opinions. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bora Aydin Akyol akyol@leland.stanford.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 12:37:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA14882 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA14874 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA28443; Tue, 23 Jan 96 14:37:49 -0600 Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.38.193.4/SMI-4.1 (1.38.193.4)) id AA07363; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:37:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:37:48 -0700 From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Message-Id: <9601232037.AA07363@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> To: akyol@wireless.stanford.edu Cc: doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: (message from Bora Akyol on Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:34:45 -0800 (PST)) Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Bora" == Bora Akyol writes: Bora> By the way, How complete are the O'reilly books that are on Bora> 4.4BSD. I browsed through and thought that they were mostly Bora> man pages. I am thinking about buying them but do not know Bora> if it's worth it. A lot of people think it's nice to have all the man pages printed nicely and bound together. I'd be one of them if I had money up the wazoo, which I don't. However, I do recommend at least one of the books from the series: 4.4BSD System Manager's Manual By Computer Systems Research Group, UC Berkeley 1st Edition June 1994 ISBN: 1-56592-080-5 804 pages, $30.00 (US) and if you're feeling particularly rich, then get these other two: 4.4BSD User's Supplementary Documents By Computer Systems Research Group, UC Berkeley 1st Edition July 1994 ISBN: 1-56592-076-7 712 pages, $30.00 (US) and 4.4BSD Programmer's Supplementary Documents By Computer Systems Research Group, UC Berkeley 1st Edition July 1994 ISBN: 1-56592-079-1 596 pages, $30.00 (US) You'll find a lot more papers/articles than man pages in these. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory, Boulder Colorado USA Here's a good trick: Get a job as a judge at the Olympics. Then, if some guy sets a world record, pretend that you didn't see it and go, "Okay, is everybody ready to start now?" -- Jack Handey From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 15:45:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA27417 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (sivka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27367 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvisti.kiev.ua (uucp@localhost) by sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with UUCP id BAA16069 for doc@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:43:56 +0200 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.33]) by spider2.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) with ESMTP id XAA07103 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 23:58:07 +0200 Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id XAA06847; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 23:57:52 +0200 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199601232157.XAA06847@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org To: gfoster@gfoster.com (Glen Foster) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 23:57:52 +0200 (EET) Cc: doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199601231251.HAA12347@nomad.osmre.gov> from "Glen Foster" at Jan 23, 96 07:51:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Hello Glen and people, # Since the "visual fdisk" part of sysinstall is so much easier to use # than the CLI fdisk, why shouldn't the "visual disklabel" part of # sysinstall be the standard way to BSD partition a slice? I remember # that I did this once, perhaps with 2.0R, does it no longer work? I didn't tried a visual disklabel myself -- and old `disklabel -r -e sdXXX` was Ok for me. Generally (I repeat) I was simply afraid to see my existing filesystems there in it's list and didn't want to check for sure -- will it destroy them or not? :-)) # Also, if one does not have 'options gzip' in the kernel, is gunzip'ing # the sysinstall program and then running it a viable option? If so, I think "no", 'cause it's really a single overbloated binary which is linked to "everything". An addition: Dmitry Kohmanyuk pointed in his e-mail that in case your'e using your disk for FreeBSD _only_ (no other so called "OSes" on it :) you don't need fdisk at all, disklabel alone will be Ok; that's because it writes something appropriate to MBR sector itself. Dear Glen, in case you have a disk now to test all the info you got already, step by step, wouldn't you mind posting a summarized and tested (at least once) metodology to doc@freebsd.org? I hope it will be taken, reviewed and inserted somewhere by docwriters and FAQ maintainers. # # Glen Foster # -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 An undocumented feature is a coding error. From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 17:09:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA03551 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA03531 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jfieber@localhost) by fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA10124; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:09:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:09:20 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu To: Bora Akyol cc: doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Bora Akyol wrote: > By the way, > How complete are the O'reilly books that are on 4.4BSD. I browsed > through and > thought that they > were mostly man pages. > I am thinking about buying them but do not know if it's worth it. Basically the same as the stuff in /usr/share/doc except they have stuff that isn't in 4.4lite for copyright reasons. I was planning on getting them, but when I actually flipped through I decided it wasn't worth it. -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fieber-john.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ============ From owner-freebsd-doc Tue Jan 23 20:19:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA18262 for doc-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from linus.demon.co.uk (linus.demon.co.uk [158.152.10.220]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA18113 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mark@localhost) by linus.demon.co.uk (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA16457; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:13:41 GMT Message-Id: <199601240413.EAA16457@linus.demon.co.uk> From: mark@linus.demon.co.uk (Mark Valentine) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 04:13:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: Sean Kelly's message of Jan 23, 1:37pm X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.6 alpha(3) 7/19/95) To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly), akyol@wireless.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? Cc: doc@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) > Date: Tue 23 Jan, 1996 > Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? > A lot of people think it's nice to have all the man pages printed > nicely and bound together. I'd be one of them if I had money up the > wazoo, which I don't. > > However, I do recommend at least one of the books from the series: > > 4.4BSD System Manager's Manual > > and if you're feeling particularly rich, then get these other two: > > 4.4BSD User's Supplementary Documents > 4.4BSD Programmer's Supplementary Documents > > You'll find a lot more papers/articles than man pages in these. Seconded. These are precisely the three I returned home from the bookshop with yesterday. I find that I'm more likely to read the bound versions than try to browse via a ghostview window on an undersized monitor, and finally having my own copy of all those Bell Labs papers is wonderful! These books give me a chance to put my feet up and re-discover a lot of what I've missed out on or forgotten over the years, and give me a deeper understanding of the way 4.4BSD was intended to be. There's a definite benefit from just going through the manuals sequentially at least once every few years, and it's way too long since I did that. I'll probably pick up the URM and PRM soon too, partly to make that easier, and partly as a reference to help differentiate the value added parts of FreeBSD (that knowledge is useful for software portability, to know which facilities you can expect across a selection of 4.4BSD-derived systems, and so on). Mark. From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Jan 24 01:31:09 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA14125 for doc-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA14105 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27777 for doc@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:30:31 +0100 Message-Id: <199601240930.KAA27777@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 10:26:34 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9601232037.AA07363@emu.fsl.noaa.gov>; from "Sean Kelly" at Jan 23, 96 1:37 pm X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > >>>>>> "Bora" == Bora Akyol writes: > > Bora> By the way, How complete are the O'reilly books that are on > Bora> 4.4BSD. I browsed through and thought that they were mostly > Bora> man pages. I am thinking about buying them but do not know > Bora> if it's worth it. > > A lot of people think it's nice to have all the man pages printed > nicely and bound together. I'd be one of them if I had money up the > wazoo, which I don't. > > However, I do recommend at least one of the books from the series: > > 4.4BSD System Manager's Manual > By Computer Systems Research Group, UC Berkeley > 1st Edition June 1994 > ISBN: 1-56592-080-5 > 804 pages, $30.00 (US) > > and if you're feeling particularly rich, then get these other two: > > 4.4BSD User's Supplementary Documents > By Computer Systems Research Group, UC Berkeley > 1st Edition July 1994 > ISBN: 1-56592-076-7 > 712 pages, $30.00 (US) > > and > > 4.4BSD Programmer's Supplementary Documents > By Computer Systems Research Group, UC Berkeley > 1st Edition July 1994 > ISBN: 1-56592-079-1 > 596 pages, $30.00 (US) > > You'll find a lot more papers/articles than man pages in these. OK, now we're getting back to my original message. I think it's very likely that Walnut Creek will print FreeBSD versions of the 4.4 System Manager's Manual (SMM), Programmer's Reference Manual (PRM), and User's Reference Manual (URM). These would all be significantly larger than the Lite 4.4BSD manuals. My question was: are the USD and PSD (the last two manuals mentioned above) worthwhile? About 65% of the material is AT&T copyright, and most of it is obsolescent. Could you (and anybody else who is interested) tell me which parts of these two manuals you find particularly useful. If you look in the flyleaf, you'll then see if it is subject to any copyright. In particular, of course, is there any added value by printing FreeBSD versions? My thoughts are that we should print completely different manuals describing software which is not described in these manuals. Greg From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Jan 24 02:18:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA16819 for doc-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 02:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA16779 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 02:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA00663 for doc@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:15:49 +0100 Message-Id: <199601241015.LAA00663@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Re: What printed documentation do we need? To: akyol@wireless.Stanford.EDU (Bora Akyol) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 11:11:41 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: doc@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: ; from "Bora Akyol" at Jan 23, 96 11:34 am X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Sean Kelly wrote: > >>>>>>> "John" == John Fieber writes: >> >> John> * installation * dump and restore * fsck * disklabel * >> John> newfs * maybe a couple others >> >> John> Or, more generally, for things you rarely use and >> John> consequently forget how to use and, almost by definition, >> John> online documentation is unavailable when you need them. >> >> Like adding a new drive to an existing system. >> >> -- >> Sean Kelly >> NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory, Boulder Colorado USA >> >> Whenever I see an old lady slip and fall on a wet sidewalk, my first >> instinct is to laugh. But then I think, what if I was an ant, and she >> fell on me. Then it wouldn't seem quite so funny. -- Jack Handey >> > By the way, > How complete are the O'reilly books that are on 4.4BSD. I browsed > through and > thought that they > were mostly man pages. > I am thinking about buying them but do not know if it's worth it. The URM, PRM and SMM are man pages with a permutated index. The PSD and USD are guides, but as I said in my last message, they're not exactly up-to-date. Whether you find printed man pages an advantage or not depends a lot on how they're presented. I have all the O'Reilly 4.4BSD manuals, and I hardly use them because they're not accurate enough. On the other hand, I might use printed manuals if they related more closely to the system. Greg From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Jan 24 05:03:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA26829 for doc-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (mail.sni.de [192.109.2.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA26820 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nerv@localhost) by nixpbe.pdb.sni.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA10931 for doc@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:03:26 +0100 Message-Id: <199601241303.OAA10931@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de> Subject: Adaptec 2825 VLB adapter support? To: hackers@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 13:59:31 MET From: Greg Lehey Cc: doc@freebsd.org X-Mailer: xmail 2.4 (based on ELM 2.2 PL16) Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk According to the handbook, the Adaptec SCSI driver supports controllers with the 6360 chipset. Can anybody confirm that this includes the Adaptec 2825 VLB Host Adapter? Greg From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Jan 24 05:31:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA28254 for doc-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:31:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.osmre.gov (nomad.osmre.gov [192.243.129.244]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA28248 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:31:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gfoster@localhost) by nomad.osmre.gov (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA14143; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:17:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 08:17:15 -0500 From: Glen Foster Message-Id: <199601241317.IAA14143@nomad.osmre.gov> To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua CC: doc@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199601232157.XAA06847@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> (stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua) Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'd love to test it! Unfortunately I don't have a FreeBSD system to try it on that doesn't belong to a client :-(. In any case, by the sheerest coincidence, I had to talk one of my clients through R&R'ing a disk on one of his machines last night. The methodology was, install the new disk as sd1, dup the partition structure from sd0 -> sd1, edit the partition sizes slightly, newfs;dump|restore the file systems from sd0 to sd1, switch SCSI IDs, and reboot. We used your methodology for the fdisk and labeling part and it appeared to work well although the dump|restore to a 4GB disk takes some time and the machine hasn't been rebooted yet. It appears that sysinstall doesn't let you have more than a certain number of partitions working in the disklabeling activity (is it eight?) and so is unsuitable for this type of activity on slices/disks with more than a few partitions. It also wants to write /etc/fstab on exit which I would have preferred to leave alone (maybe not if you don't specify mounts but I was too chicken to try this without my hands on the keyboard). In any case, I would prefer that, if a "select disk" box was not checked in the fdisk section of sysinstall, its partitions would not appear in the disklabeling section. Just the usual problem with "user-friendly" software, you don't always know the consequences of your decisions. I am looking forward to Jordan's latest sysinstall creation, I am very impressed by what has been done to date even with the few glitches that have occurred from time-to-time. I have helped raw newbies through the sysinstall process and they have all been able to accomplish an install with a minimum of assistance, something I cannot say for any commercial Unix flavor with which I have been associated. Sheesh! I gotta knuckle down and buy an Intel box one of these days! I would be happy to document the process of replacing an existing disk (as opposed to adding a new disk) especially where it differs/extends the adding process if people feel there is a need for this. OTOH, if new tools for doing this are about to appear it may be dated as soon as it is authored. Glen Foster From owner-freebsd-doc Wed Jan 24 16:54:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA06260 for doc-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nike.efn.org (gurney_j@haus.efn.org [198.68.17.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06220 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gurney_j@localhost) by nike.efn.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA09862; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:56:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:56:24 -0800 (PST) From: John-Mark Gurney Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney To: doc@freebsd.org Subject: structure documentation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk I am wondering if anybody is working on structure documentation for the kernel? I was thinking about adding limited load-balancing support... but decided I needed a better feel for the kernel... if no one has I am going to start working on it... basicly it will be in html format so you can put it up via web and what not... thanks for the help... TTYL... John-Mark gurney_j@efn.org Modem/FAX: (503) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box) Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix) GCS/M/Sd#h+s+!gau-a--w++++vC+++++UF++++P---E---N++W---M--V--Y+t+5++G+b+D++ B----eu+h++!f++n---- CD5OUF++++.L-------2W.DM----N.9---NET2SP3s.2,4s.,4d.2,6--- From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Jan 25 10:22:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA06023 for doc-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:22:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (sivka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA05963 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvisti.kiev.ua (uucp@localhost) by sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with UUCP id UAA19291 for doc@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:17:41 +0200 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.33]) by spider2.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) with ESMTP id RAA07965 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:56:19 +0200 Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id RAA00921; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:56:18 +0200 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199601251556.RAA00921@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org To: gfoster@gfoster.com (Glen Foster) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:56:17 +0200 (EET) Cc: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua, doc@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199601241317.IAA14143@nomad.osmre.gov> from "Glen Foster" at Jan 24, 96 08:17:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello Glen and others, # ... The # methodology was, install the new disk as sd1, dup the partition # structure from sd0 -> sd1, edit the partition sizes slightly, # newfs;dump|restore the file systems from sd0 to sd1, switch SCSI IDs, # and reboot. I'm now exploring a similar approach. After a recent Conner disk crash, I'm equipping a new box (to be an access server, with 10 modems). It's operation is critical. Pity, but the only HDDs we had available were 2 Conners. What I want to do, in order to get a fast fallback solution: sd0 and sd1 are identical, both have a root (sd[01]a) partition, a piece of swap, and several other FSes (/usr, whatever). During a normal operation, the box works with filesystems on sd0 only, but with swap on both disks; and the raw partitions are mirrored with dd (1) from cron with some different period (root and usr more rarely, user homespace and mail partitions -- more frequently, in the way like: rsd0a -> rsd1a, rsd0e -> rsd1e and so on). No mounted filesystems on sd1. In case one disk goes south, I simply remove it, leaving the other one as sd0, and reboot. I'm still Ok in 5 minutes, users will hardly notice the crash. (Yes, that's RAID for poor guys like me :) What's interesting: while sd1 was a fresh-formatted disk, dd worked Ok, I made an initial copy of rsd0c to rsd1c easily (fast!). But now I can't dd my rsd0a to rsd1a -- dd fails telling me that rsd1a is read-only file system. ??? rsd0e to rsd1e works fine! A day of beating and RTFMing with zero result. But this belongs to questions@freebsd.org, I'll ask there later... or learn how to "dump (1)", at last :) # It appears that sysinstall doesn't let you have more than a certain # number of partitions working in the disklabeling activity (is it # eight?) and so is unsuitable for this type of activity on slices/disks # with more than a few partitions. Do you mean "partitions" to be fdisk partitions (those called "slices"), or a BSD subpartitions with file systems? I recall that there _is_ a limit on BSD subpartitions quantity somewhere, though I'd never reached it :-) # It also wants to write /etc/fstab on # exit which I would have preferred to leave alone (maybe not if you # don't specify mounts but I was too chicken to try this without my # hands on the keyboard). In any case, I would prefer that, if a # "select disk" box was not checked in the fdisk section of sysinstall, # its partitions would not appear in the disklabeling section. That's exactly what I told you -- I'd better use a more dumb tool, which wouldn't do even a single bit more than I told it myself. See my new signature below :-) # I am looking forward to Jordan's latest sysinstall creation, I am very # impressed by what has been done to date even with the few glitches # that have occurred from time-to-time. I have helped raw newbies # through the sysinstall process and they have all been able to # accomplish an install with a minimum of assistance, something I cannot # say for any commercial Unix flavor with which I have been associated. Seconded completely. Jordan did a really good job. And yes, even complete newbies who saw nothing but dos in their life and with BAD knowlege of English, did that with minimal help. Truth. # Sheesh! I gotta knuckle down and buy an Intel box one of these days! Get a nice Pentium (with ASUS MB and Quantum disks on NCR SCSI bus). Not expensive, but very fast and stable. My friends in an Applied Mech Lab in Kiev Tech. Univercity got one, I gave them FreeBSD and helped with installation -- and they _are_ happy. They even got a Fortran compiler out of the box! :) It does some numbercrunching, and serves a small LAN, with virtually zero load average. Disks are doing 5Mb/sec through the filesystem. # # Glen Foster # -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Jan 25 10:23:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id KAA06053 for doc-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:23:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (sivka.carrier.kiev.ua [193.125.68.130]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06010 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvisti.kiev.ua (uucp@localhost) by sivka.carrier.kiev.ua (Sendmail 8.who.cares/5) with UUCP id UAA19478 for doc@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:20:14 +0200 Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.33]) by spider2.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) with ESMTP id SAA08845 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 18:05:00 +0200 Received: (from karp@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id SAA01220 for doc@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 18:04:59 +0200 From: Alexander Karptsov Message-Id: <199601251604.SAA01220@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> To: doc@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 18:04:58 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk help From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Jan 25 17:17:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA23324 for doc-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomad.osmre.gov (nomad.osmre.gov [192.243.129.244]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA23317 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gfoster@localhost) by nomad.osmre.gov (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA16868; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:10:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:10:35 -0500 From: Glen Foster Message-Id: <199601260110.UAA16868@nomad.osmre.gov> To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua CC: doc@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199601251556.RAA00921@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> (stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua) Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org Sender: owner-doc@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > From: "Andrew V. Stesin" > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:56:17 +0200 (EET) > > What's interesting: while sd1 was a fresh-formatted disk, > dd worked Ok, I made an initial copy of rsd0c to rsd1c > easily (fast!). But now I can't dd my rsd0a to rsd1a -- dd fails > telling me that rsd1a is read-only file system. ??? > rsd0e to rsd1e works fine! A day of beating and RTFMing > with zero result. But this belongs to questions@freebsd.org, > I'll ask there later... or learn how to "dump (1)", at last :) I found dd to be very slow, I didn't play with the bs parameters as I also ran into the "r/o" issue that you did once the part. had data on it. I find that a dump|restore pipe is much faster than dd plus the two partitions don't have to be identical. OTOH, the destination partition has to be mounted, like: # newfs /dev/rsd1h # mount /dev/sd1h /mnt # dump 0f - /dev/rsd0h | (cd /mnt ; restore rf -) # umount /mnt > Do you mean "partitions" to be fdisk partitions (those called > "slices"), or a BSD subpartitions with file systems? > I recall that there _is_ a limit on BSD subpartitions quantity > somewhere, though I'd never reached it :-) I meant "traditional" BSD (sub-)partitions whether living inside a slice or on the disk itself. These are limited to eight. Unfortunately, the sysinstall program enforces its own lower limit even though you have more than one disk and/or partition selected. I was told that there is documentation about this, perhaps in the sysinstall help files, but I haven't confirmed it myself. I like your solution for implementing a "hot spare" disk in the box, the only concerns I would have about that would be that added heat might shorten the life of both disks and that a power problem (e.g. lightning strike) could kill both disks at once. From owner-freebsd-doc Thu Jan 25 19:33:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-doc Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA00852 for doc-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 19:33:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ajax.che.curtin.edu.au (ajax.che.curtin.edu.au [134.7.142.113]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA00815 for ; Thu, 25 Jan 1996 19:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from garyr@localhost) by ajax.che.curtin.edu.au (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA06133; Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:26:03 +1000 From: Gary Roberts Message-Id: <199601260326.NAA06133@ajax.che.curtin.edu.au> Subject: Re: Frustrated....doc@freebsd.org To: stesin@elvisti.kiev.ua (Andrew V. Stesin) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:26:01 +1000 (EST) Cc: gfoster@gfoster.com, doc@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199601251556.RAA00921@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> from "Andrew V. Stesin" at Jan 25, 96 05:56:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Andrew V. Stesin writes: > What's interesting: while sd1 was a fresh-formatted disk, > dd worked Ok, I made an initial copy of rsd0c to rsd1c > easily (fast!). But now I can't dd my rsd0a to rsd1a -- dd fails > telling me that rsd1a is read-only file system. ??? > rsd0e to rsd1e works fine! A day of beating and RTFMing > with zero result. But this belongs to questions@freebsd.org, > I'll ask there later... or learn how to "dump (1)", at last :) I believe I know the answer to your problem. The rsd1a is special in that the boot block and disklabel are on the front of it. With a freshly formatted disk, the first time you do the dd to rsd1a, there is no boot block or disklabel to overwrite, so it works. When you try to do it a second time however, you are attempting to overwrite the boot block and disklabel, so dd complains. The workaround is to use: dd if=/dev/rsd0a of=/dev/rsd1a bs=16b skip=1 ^^^^^^ whick will leave the boot block and disklabel alone. I only know this because Rod Grimes told me once about it and I did use it successfully with making clone copies of IDE disks, fully configured. Sure beats doing a full installation and configuration for second and subsequent systems that are to be essentially identical to the first. As a disclaimer :-), I did this about 12-18 months ago and it worked then on IDE disks (rwd0a -> rwd1a). I have no recent experience or knowledge of any changes (to the slice code for example) which may affect the present viability of the technique. The problem you describe is identical to what I was experiencing, however. Good luck with it. Cheers, -- Gary Roberts (garyr@wcs.uq.edu.au) (Ph +617 3844 0400 Fax +617 3844 0444) 4th Floor, South Bank House, 234 Grey St, South Bank QLD 4101 Australia.