From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Feb 25 11:04:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA12338 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12333 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:04:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by agora.rdrop.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0tqlk6-000AnbC; Sun, 25 Feb 96 11:04 PST Message-Id: From: batie@agora.rdrop.com (Alan Batie) Subject: Re: [Last revision?]: FreeBSD server considerations.. To: lithium@cia-g.com (Stephen Fisher) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:04:22 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Fisher" at Feb 24, 96 03:13:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/pgp; format=text; x-action=sign Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Mother board: AMD 586/133 CPU w/ MB $230. Either this "almost-pentium" > or an AMD/Intel 486DX4/133 with ASUS MB. It doesn't need to handle TOO > much growth yet so I believe the 486 will just have to do for now ;). Since I work for Intel, I can't recommend AMD chips :-) but I can recommend that whatever you get, you make sure it has a large memory capacity. As an ISP, that's going to be what you need the most. My 486 was only occasionally maxing out, but the 32Meg my motherboard supported was killing me. Still, I don't mind having a Pentium 133 now :-) > Hmm.. But they also have heard ASUS > MBs are the best. I've had no problems at all with my ASUS-PCI/I-P55TP4XE motherboard --- works great. > SCSI Drives: Two Conner or Quantum 1.08GB drives. The 2GB seemed to be > more than twice the price of the 1GB drives. $245/Each. I'm using 2G just for /home for 400-500 active users and 600 accounts (I don't remove expired accounts immediately, as they have a habit of suddenly finding the money and wanting them restored). 1G for the system disk will work if you don't have anything but kernel source online, but over all, you're going to find this cramped fairly quickly with log files, mail spool and the like. If you're putting web servers and ftp servers on this also, it's going to fill up almost instantly. Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/sd0a 453342 317162 99912 76% / /dev/sd1s1e 1438568 918558 404924 69% /usr/src /dev/sd0s1e 1514260 1367400 25718 98% /var /dev/sd2s1e 1986751 1674694 252454 87% /home I've got the full 2.1 release in /var, which is the main reason it's filled up, but also: 78586 /var/httpd 96464 /var/log 300882 /var/mail (yeah, looks like I need to go do some cleanup...) And don't forget swap --- you'll want at least 128M. That's probably enough though. > Memory: 16Meg. I will upgrade to 32Meg shortly, when needed. Just about > $400. At peak times, I have about 30+ users logged in, about half net and half dialup, and have 64Meg of RAM. It isn't too bad, but it really wants about 96Meg. I'm only running one web server and have nothing too much in ftp. > Any other recommendations or suggestions? I'll sleep on this and go > ahead and buy it if there are no visible problems with what I am buying. It's not possible to buy too much disk or memory... - -- Alan Batie ______ Freedom for me to be and do batie@agora.rdrop.com \ / only what *you* approve of +1 503 452-0960 \ / is no freedom at all. DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A 27 \/ 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 It is my policy to avoid purchase of any products from companies which use unrequested email advertisements or telephone solicitation. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMTCysov4wNua7QglAQECUgP/U2C32W+P+BJVzVjIQHOvcfJfAkHejH78 hxgPsPJ7IXRlptTz81/3WJLqKEHg4pZzQNwSEBCH/lXp+knMK4jKN8xrHnQp2JRL bn103ZmNkhjgfsITdeuys9I2o8C/Y0BnmHz1pY+VZlx6g0C0JBh7TIj+2iDAG176 dBxwaQBGdBM= =lqc/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Feb 25 12:09:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA15854 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA15849 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA01519; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:09:18 -0500 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 15:09:18 -0500 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199602252009.PAA01519@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: jeff@mercury.jorsm.com, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Last revision?]: FreeBSD server considerations.. X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 (NOV) Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.isp you write: >Get the ASUS, and start with a slower Pentium. The ASUS should support >upwards of 180MHz so you save your initial investment. >> >> Bus: Almost if not everything PCI. >All but your dirty video for plain text... >> >> SCSI Card: Adapetc 2940 PCI, $235. >Get the Ultra Wide for about $65 more. If your supplier wants much >more, find a new supplier. Not a bad idea to look at the BusLogic cards as well, I have had exceptionally good performance, and reliability with this guys. >> SCSI Drives: Two Conner or Quantum 1.08GB drives. The 2GB seemed to be >> more than twice the price of the 1GB drives. $245/Each. >Seagate, Seagate, Seagate... Get Wide it only costs a few dollars more. Thats religion, I would say connor connor connor, the 4207S specifically. One hell of a badass 4.2gb 7200rpm SCSI disk. I have had many Seagates go dead on me within two days due to how hot they run. (These all barracuda's). >> Memory: 16Meg. I will upgrade to 32Meg shortly, when needed. Just about >> $400. >> CDROM: Toshiba 4x [SCSI]. $140. I will be using it for a bit more than >> just installing the OS and the 4x is about the same price as the 2x. >> >> Tape: Conner TAPESTOR 4GB External SCSI. $440. >> 4GB Tapes, $70/Each. 3 Tapes (daily/weekly/every third week backups) >Spend more for a 8mm or DAT and save in the long run on media. Really. For the CDROM I would recommend a Plextor. I think it was this weeks/month's Media Source that had a review of 4x-8x CD's and they recommended Plextor's. (Not to say the Toshiba is a bad drive, I believe they rated it second). For the tape you should really spend the extra money and get a DAT drive. For that I would recommend the Sony SDT-5000 compressing DAT. Has a 1mb on-board buffer, and sustains nearly 900K/sec during a standard unix dump. Slows down somewhat on already compressed data and such. With a typical compression you get about ~8GB on a $15 120meter tape, or ~$4GB on a 90 meter tape ($7). -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu http://rs560.msu.edu/~henrich/ From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Feb 25 12:19:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA16473 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:19:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from okjunc.junction.net (michael@okjunc.junction.net [199.166.227.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16462 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:19:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by okjunc.junction.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA11399; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:26:47 -0800 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 12:26:39 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon X-Sender: michael@okjunc.junction.net To: Matt Emerson cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: switch from sun to freebsd news server? In-Reply-To: <199602250142.UAA00358@nightfly.pip.net> Message-ID: Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Matt Emerson wrote: > ideally, we'd like to use an ibm pc server 320 with a raid, and > 64MB. but after poking around the mailing list archives, i'm > not too hopeful this will be a viable option. I have a customer running SCO UNIX on one of these machines. First of all, it is a dual Pentium design and I don't believe FreeBSD supports dual CPU machines yet so why not buy faster single-CPU design. Secondly, the RAID component of the 320 is supplied by a Mylex DAC960 host adapter connected to a hot-swap drive chassis. This requires Mylex supported drivers which I am sure are not available for FreeBSD. However, Mylex makes a model of the DAC960 called DAC960SI which is System Independent. It is a SCSI to SCSI design which requires a supported SCSI host adapter in the host machine so there should be no problems in using it in a FreeBSD machine. I have heard that it is also possible to get independent hot-swap chassis. Perhaps if you call up Mylex and ask about the 960SI they will be able to point you to a supplier of hot-swap chassis > so, should i shut up and be happy with the ss10? or would a > switch be reasonable? Research, research, research. The world of computers is a BIG WIDE world these days, filled with lots of interesting nooks and crannies and people doing interesting things with non-standard hardware and software. Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Feb 25 13:41:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA22184 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:41:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (root@gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22177 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from gallup.cia-g.com (gallup.cia-g.com [206.206.162.10]) by gallup.cia-g.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA09286; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 14:41:10 -0700 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 14:41:10 -0700 (MST) From: Stephen Fisher To: Charles Henrich cc: jeff@mercury.jorsm.com, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Last revision?]: FreeBSD server considerations.. In-Reply-To: <199602252009.PAA01519@crh.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk About how much would a Sony SDT-5000 DAT run? ($US) On Sun, 25 Feb 1996, Charles Henrich wrote: > For the tape you should really spend the extra money and get a DAT drive. For > that I would recommend the Sony SDT-5000 compressing DAT. Has a 1mb on-board > buffer, and sustains nearly 900K/sec during a standard unix dump. Slows down > somewhat on already compressed data and such. With a typical compression you > get about ~8GB on a $15 120meter tape, or ~$4GB on a 90 meter tape ($7). From owner-freebsd-isp Sun Feb 25 13:50:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA22794 for isp-outgoing; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:50:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22785 for ; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 13:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA02171; Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:49:38 -0500 From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199602252149.QAA02171@crh.cl.msu.edu> Subject: Re: [Last revision?]: FreeBSD server considerations.. To: lithium@cia-g.com (Stephen Fisher) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:49:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: jeff@mercury.jorsm.com, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Stephen Fisher" at Feb 25, 96 02:41:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > About how much would a Sony SDT-5000 DAT run? ($US) In the shopper I've seen it anywhere from $825-$900 .. -Crh Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu http://rs560.msu.edu/~henrich/ From owner-freebsd-isp Mon Feb 26 16:44:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA02455 for isp-outgoing; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix1.ism.com.br (root@unix1.ism.com.br [200.255.211.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02078 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 16:38:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dial009.ism.com.br (dial009.ism.com.br [200.255.211.109]) by unix1.ism.com.br (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA04390 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:35:21 -0300 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 21:35:21 -0300 Message-Id: <199602270035.VAA04390@unix1.ism.com.br> X-Sender: compland@ism.com.br X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.org From: compland@ism.com.br (Helio Coelho Jr. - CompuLand Informatica) Subject: Livingston Portmaster Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello: Anybody using the beta version of Livingston's Portmaster Pmconsole for BSDI ? Working fine ? Thanks. Helio. From owner-freebsd-isp Tue Feb 27 07:30:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA26580 for isp-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from dc.mikimen.com (miki1.eden.com [204.177.170.82]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA26529 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 07:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from enrico@localhost) by dc.mikimen.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA15102; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:29:52 -0600 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:29:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199602271529.JAA15102@dc.mikimen.com> From: Enrico Brunetta To: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.org Subject: need suggestions on ISP costs Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello there, my partner and I just had this idea of becoming some sort of an ISP using our existing FreeBSD computers (a couple of P133 with Adapt.2940 and around 4Gb of disk space). What we would like to do is to provide internet access to a restricted number of ISDN users (we already have around 10 friends interested) for a cheaper rate than the ongoing ISP rate here in town (Austin,Tx). We already have office space and computer equipment. This venture is not meant to be profitable for us, and we are trying to determine what are the expenses to set it up. Once determined how much it'll cost, we'll decide what is the minimum number of people that we need to involve to split the amount. (Hopefully it's not going to be a HUGE number :) We might be interested in leasing a T1. What is an average price for leasing a line ? Any installation costs ? How do we connect the FreeBSD computer to the T1 ? How much does the hardware cost ? Also, since the incoming lines are ISDN what kind of equipment do we need to connect ISDN lines ? How much would it cost ? Thanks for any help, Enrico. ________________________________________________________________________ enrico@mikimen.com * Enrico Brunetta * (512) 345-3045 The Mikimen Group, 11008 Jollyville Rd #216, Austin, TX 78759 From owner-freebsd-isp Tue Feb 27 09:55:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA07634 for isp-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from brasil.moneng.mei.com (brasil.moneng.mei.com [151.186.109.160]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07629 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jgreco@localhost) by brasil.moneng.mei.com (8.7.Beta.1/8.7.Beta.1) id LAA22780; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:54:38 -0600 From: Joe Greco Message-Id: <199602271754.LAA22780@brasil.moneng.mei.com> Subject: Re: need suggestions on ISP costs To: enrico@mikimen.com (Enrico Brunetta) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 11:54:37 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199602271529.JAA15102@dc.mikimen.com> from "Enrico Brunetta" at Feb 27, 96 09:29:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > Hello there, > > my partner and I just had this idea of becoming some sort of an ISP using our > existing FreeBSD computers (a couple of P133 with Adapt.2940 and around 4Gb of > disk space). > > What we would like to do is to provide internet access to a restricted > number of ISDN users (we already have around 10 friends interested) for > a cheaper rate than the ongoing ISP rate here in town (Austin,Tx). We > already have office space and computer equipment. > > This venture is not meant to be profitable for us, and we are trying to > determine what are the expenses to set it up. Once determined how much it'll > cost, we'll decide what is the minimum number of people that we need to involve > to split the amount. (Hopefully it's not going to be a HUGE number :) Okay, so you're just looking at costs. > We might be interested in leasing a T1. > > What is an average price for leasing a line ? It is generally distance and contract dependent. For a short distance and a 5 year contract, it may be just a few hundred a month for the circuit itself. Connection to an ISP and bandwidth will cost you on top of that. Prices vary widely. However, if you were to contract with both the phone co and the ISP for a multi year contract, you may well get it below $1500/mo. > Any installation costs ? Often, yes, to cover the cost of equipment. > How do we connect the FreeBSD computer to the T1 ? See Emerging Tech's products, http://www.etinc.com/. They have a solution that will cost you around $1000-$1500 including the CSU/DSU. I use it, I am very pleased with it. It is not the only solution but it is cheap, particularly if you already have FreeBSD systems running. > How much does the hardware cost ? > > Also, since the incoming lines are ISDN what kind of equipment do we need to > connect ISDN lines ? I use standard serial ports and Motorola Bitsurfer Pro or Motorola UTA/220's. I generally do NOT do anything else on my router/terminal servers because of the high interrupt loading. Last time I tested, running a 115,200bps ISDN link bidirectionally (ftp both ways) we were getting 10k/second in both directions and the 486DX2/50 that was on my end was running around 5%-10% busy. > How much would it cost ? Bitsurfer Pro's cost around $400. The UTA/220's are a bit more. 16550 serial ports are cheap but you might want to consider going to an intelligent card or a Hayes ESP 8 port card (dunno if they're supported however). > Thanks for any help, ... Joe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joe Greco - Systems Administrator jgreco@ns.sol.net Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI 414/546-7968 From owner-freebsd-isp Tue Feb 27 17:42:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA02827 for isp-outgoing; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.mnsinc.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA02822 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:42:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from jnp-server1 (jking.mnsinc.com [205.157.131.123]) by mail1.mnsinc.com (8.6.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA23811 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:41:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:41:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199602280141.UAA23811@mail1.mnsinc.com> X-Sender: jking@mnsinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG From: James King Subject: Starting a New ISP Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Can someone recommend so Ports to Setup a FreeeBSD System, Examples what is needed to handle PPP/SLIP/CSLIP Accesses, and FTP Server as well as WWW Servers and any other Recomended Services. Also any feed back as far as Pros and Cons of using FreeBSD as an ISP. James King jking@mnsinc.com From owner-freebsd-isp Wed Feb 28 09:28:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA24523 for isp-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from purcell.jlc.net (root@purcell.jlc.net [199.201.159.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24511 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:28:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jason@localhost) by purcell.jlc.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA06592; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:28:21 -0500 From: "Jason T. Nelson" Message-Id: <199602281728.MAA06592@purcell.jlc.net> Subject: Re: Starting a New ISP To: jking@mnsinc.com (James King) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:28:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199602280141.UAA23811@mail1.mnsinc.com> from "James King" at Feb 27, 96 08:41:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Can someone recommend so Ports to Setup a FreeeBSD System, Examples what is > needed to handle PPP/SLIP/CSLIP Accesses, and FTP Server as well as WWW Servers > and any other Recomended Services. Also any feed back as far as Pros and > Cons of using FreeBSD as an ISP. We're almost entirely a FreeBSD based ISP now (with one NEXTSTEP workstation I've been putting off converting) and we're *very* happy with the performence we've been seeing since moving away from a "commercial" OS. Our Web server is running Apache 1.0.0 (the one with SSL). The kernel on that machine handles 50 httpd processes at once without blinking, all while I'm playing phantasia or netrek in an X window at the console. The main reason we're using FreeBSD for our Web server is that I've used it at home for eons and I was impressed with the developers professional attitudes as compared to Linux. Plus, the network performance is VERY impressive. Try pushing data at 900kb/s across a 10baseT network between two machines with Linux ;) We also have a machine dedicated to news carrying all news except most of alt.* (mainly to keep our hands from getting slapped with reference to the CDA and OCAF); it purrs along very nicely doing an expire. The SCSI adaptor is a BusLogic 946C, with all drives sync doing 10MB/s transfers. Recently, we decided to use a FreeBSD machine as our main router between our Ethernet and a T1 frame relay link to the outside world. It can easily keep the T1 (at 384kbps mind you) from sucking air. We're using Emerging Tech's high speed SIO card for the link to the CSD/DSU; I'm impressed to see companies developing software for FreeBSD in addition to the over-hyped Linux. In the end though, we decided to go with Livingston Portmasters for terminal servers because of the lack of moving parts. -- Jason T. Nelson From owner-freebsd-isp Wed Feb 28 12:36:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id MAA09636 for isp-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:36:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from boulder.earthnet.net (root@boulder.earthnet.net [199.45.146.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA09629 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tanka (slip14.earthnet.net [199.45.146.114]) by boulder.earthnet.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA21248 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:35:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199602282035.NAA21248@boulder.earthnet.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Troy Cobb" Organization: Solutions Consulting To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:39:01 -700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Yet another ISP startup question :) Reply-to: troy@solve.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk sorry to beat a long-dead horse, but... I've already confirmed my server, memory, router, access, OS etc..choices for a new ISP i'm starting...my last issue is hard drives... My plan is to equip all of the servers with Adaptec 2940UW controllers (the replacement for the 2940W)...though I doubt I'll use the WIDE capabilities right away (seems like overkill). I'm pretty set on getting no drives larger than 2GBs, to spread out the work-load on access..Also tending toward getting only 5400 RPM spin drives b/c of overheating issues I've heard w/ the 7200 RPM versions. I'd appreciate any advice y'all might have on drive choices (a religious topic?), particularly whether you find 12ms versus 9ms access times and/or cache size to have any noticiable effect in real-world ISP applications. TIA, - Troy ********************************************** Solutions Consulting 1111 Front Street, Ste 100 Louisville, Colorado 80027 (303) 665-0454 troy@solve.com http://www.solve.com/solutions ********************************************** email troy_pgp@solve.com for PGP Public Key From owner-freebsd-isp Wed Feb 28 14:29:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA21182 for isp-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@nervosa.com [192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA21170 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id OAA21339; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:28:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:28:46 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: "Jason T. Nelson" cc: James King , freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Starting a New ISP In-Reply-To: <199602281728.MAA06592@purcell.jlc.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Jason T. Nelson wrote: > two machines with Linux ;) We also have a machine dedicated to news > carrying all news except most of alt.* (mainly to keep our hands from > getting slapped with reference to the CDA and OCAF); it purrs along very > Jason T. Nelson I highly recommend you DO NOT do that. If you want to retain your common carrier status and be protected by the law from CDA and OCAF, etc issues, than you better include everything, if you don't, you become a manager of information and are no longer a common carrier. == Chris Layne ============================================================== == coredump@nervosa.com ================= http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-isp Wed Feb 28 21:20:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id VAA26963 for isp-outgoing; Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:20:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au (falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au [147.109.1.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA26957 Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdd.pacit.tas.gov.au (sdd.pacit.tas.gov.AU [147.109.2.93]) by falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id QAA04833; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:16:55 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960229052049.0070afa4@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au> X-Sender: sdd@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:20:49 +1100 To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org From: Scott Donovan Subject: NN Stat 3.2 Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone ported NNStat 3.2 (or even the 3.3beta) to FreeBSD ??? I have got it most of the way, but my "C" skills are being streched. Any help muchly appreciated. Cheers, Scott Donovan. From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 00:04:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id AAA18792 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from berkeley.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp (berkeley.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp [157.82.76.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA18767 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:04:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by berkeley.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA05776; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:02:39 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199602290802.RAA05776@berkeley.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp> X-Authentication-Warning: berkeley.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: sdd@ccd.tas.gov.au Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, shichi@berkeley.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp Subject: Re: NN Stat 3.2 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:20:49 +1100" References: <2.2.32.19960229052049.0070afa4@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.03 on Emacs 19.28.3, Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:02:39 +0900 From: Naohiro Shichijo Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Scott, toku@dit.co.jp has ported NNStat3.2 to bsdi and placed it in ftp.bsdi.com. If anyone not yet started porting NNStat to FBSD, that package would be a good starting point... Naohiro Shichijo University of Tokyo From: Scott Donovan Subject: NN Stat 3.2 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:20:49 +1100 Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960229052049.0070afa4@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au> sdd> Has anyone ported NNStat 3.2 (or even the 3.3beta) to FreeBSD ??? I have got sdd> it most of the way, but my "C" skills are being streched. sdd> sdd> Any help muchly appreciated. sdd> sdd> Cheers, sdd> Scott Donovan. sdd> sdd> From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 01:05:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA24034 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 01:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from okjunc.junction.net (michael@okjunc.junction.net [199.166.227.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA24024 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 01:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by okjunc.junction.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) id BAA31824; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 01:12:32 -0800 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 01:12:32 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon X-Sender: michael@okjunc.junction.net To: invalid opcode cc: "Jason T. Nelson" , James King , freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Starting a New ISP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, invalid opcode wrote: > On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Jason T. Nelson wrote: > > > two machines with Linux ;) We also have a machine dedicated to news > > carrying all news except most of alt.* (mainly to keep our hands from > > getting slapped with reference to the CDA and OCAF); it purrs along very > > Jason T. Nelson > > I highly recommend you DO NOT do that. Which state are you registered at the bar? > If you want to retain your common > carrier status and be protected by the law from CDA and OCAF, etc issues, > than you better include everything, if you don't, you become a manager of > information and are no longer a common carrier. Since when do ISP's have common carrier status? I expect an answer to my question above because I intend to report your conduct to your state bar association and have you disbarred. Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 01:24:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA25611 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 01:24:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA25603 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 01:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by agora.rdrop.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0ts3Zx-000AodC; Thu, 29 Feb 96 00:19 PST Message-Id: From: batie@agora.rdrop.com (Alan Batie) Subject: Re: Starting a New ISP To: coredump@nervosa.com (invalid opcode) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:19:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: jason@purcell.jlc.net, jking@mnsinc.com, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "invalid opcode" at Feb 28, 96 02:28:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > I highly recommend you DO NOT do that. If you want to retain your common > carrier status and be protected by the law from CDA and OCAF, etc issues, Just to be clear: ISP's don't have common carrier status to start with, it's just that not filtering strengthens your argument that you're providing a public forum and not publishing an edited collection. -- Alan Batie ______ Freedom for me to be and do batie@agora.rdrop.com \ / only what *you* approve of +1 503 452-0960 \ / is no freedom at all. DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A 27 \/ 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 It is my policy to avoid purchase of any products from companies which use unrequested email advertisements or telephone solicitation. From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 04:43:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id EAA08293 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 04:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.mnsinc.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA08288 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 04:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from SYS_449.DTIC.DLA.MIL (sys_449.dtic.dla.mil [131.84.40.49]) by mail1.mnsinc.com (8.6.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA04940 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:43:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:43:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199602291243.HAA04940@mail1.mnsinc.com> X-Sender: jking@mnsinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org From: James King Subject: Responses to Question Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Thanks to all that have replied to my request for Info, sorry to have started a discussions on Legal Issues. Again thanks for all the Info. James King From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 05:24:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA09938 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from solar.os.com (root@solar.os.com [199.232.136.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09932 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 05:24:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from jupiter (jupiter.os.com [199.232.136.66]) by solar.os.com (8.7/8.7.0) with SMTP id IAA05899 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:40:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199602291340.IAA05899@solar.os.com> X-Sender: craigs@solar X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:20:53 -0500 To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org From: craigs@os.com (Craig Shrimpton) Subject: Re: Starting a New ISP Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >> I highly recommend you DO NOT do that. If you want to retain your common >> carrier status and be protected by the law from CDA and OCAF, etc issues, > >Just to be clear: ISP's don't have common carrier status to start with, it's >just that not filtering strengthens your argument that you're providing a >public forum and not publishing an edited collection. > > If it's of any interest to anyone, I make my decisions on which groups to carry based not on content but strictly on the structure of the newgroup message. If the newgroup message is in the proper format with both "For your newsgroups file" and "Charter" entries, it's added. If the group message is poorly formed, it's discarded. Additionally, all newgroups from tale@uu.uunet.net are honored as well as some distributions. This is a written company policy. If any of my customers want a group added that I don't carry, I ask them to have the "owner" of the group (if it's alt) to issue a proper newgroup message. BTW: I never honor any rmgroup messages in alt. -Craig =================================================================== Orbit Internet Email: craigs@os.com 400 Grove Street Phone: (508) 753-8776 Worcester, MA 01605 http://www.os.com/ From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 13:23:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA10361 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.mnsinc.com ([206.55.3.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA10337 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from jnp-server1 (jking.mnsinc.com [205.157.131.123]) by mail1.mnsinc.com (8.6.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA05726 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:23:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:23:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199602292123.QAA05726@mail1.mnsinc.com> X-Sender: jking@mnsinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org From: James King Subject: Okay Question #2 Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Do I need any additional software, to Install it on a 586-133Mhz with SCSI Hard Drive and CD-Rom and 16Mb of Memory. Also on top of the FreeBSD Package, can some one recommend som Good/Reliable Services to ubtain for News/Mail/ Web and FTP and So On. Also does it Come with the Drivers to Setup a Digiboard 32 Port Card and Configure PPP/SLIP/CSLIP connections using 28.800 Modems. Or does that Require an additional Package. I am trying to Compare the Free-BSD package to the BSDI Server ($ 955. Price Tag). Last Question will FreeBSD Handle 64 Lines on a Single Pentium Computer. Or is that the Big Justification for the $ 995 Price Tag. James King jking@mnsinc.com From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 13:51:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA12800 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from neon.nwpros.com (neon.nwpros.com [205.229.128.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12794 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gclarkii@localhost) by neon.nwpros.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00418 for freebsd-isp@freebsd.org; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:42:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199602292142.PAA00418@neon.nwpros.com> Subject: ppp dialins with win95 To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:42:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Gary Clark II" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I've got alot of customers with win95 and winsock. They connect, PPP/D runs but they can not get out. Any ideas? thanks for ANY and ALL help. Gary -- Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | Director of Operations | Good service at gclarkii@Neon.NWPros.COM | Network Pros, Inc. | low rates!! FreeBSD FAQ at ftp.FreeBSD.ORG in ~pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 14:32:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA14927 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.mnsinc.com ([206.55.3.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14895 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from jnp-server1 (jking.mnsinc.com [205.157.131.123]) by mail1.mnsinc.com (8.6.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA09477 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:30:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:30:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199602292230.RAA09477@mail1.mnsinc.com> X-Sender: jking@mnsinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG From: James King Subject: Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Does anyone run FreeBSD on a Computer with a Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller. James King jking@ mnsinc.com From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 14:41:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.FreeBSD.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA15396 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au ([147.109.1.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15355 Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdd.pacit.tas.gov.au (sdd.pacit.tas.gov.AU [147.109.2.93]) by falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id JAA18071; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:34:49 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960229223903.00741978@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au> X-Sender: sdd@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 09:39:03 +1100 To: Naohiro Shichijo From: Scott Donovan Subject: Re: NN Stat 3.2 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk >toku@dit.co.jp has ported NNStat3.2 to bsdi and placed it in ftp.bsdi.com. >If anyone not yet started porting NNStat to FBSD, that package would be >a good starting point... A great starting point.. All but compiled first hit.. I guess I should put a "package" together.. Now I have to figure out how to do that. Cheers, Scott. From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 14:57:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA16468 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@[192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16455 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id OAA26594 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:57:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:57:09 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: the following is from cu-digest Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk -- CUT HERE ------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:57:45 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Lassen Subject: File 6--ISP's and Common Carrier status (A response to Mr. Townson) >there is no prohibition >against you starting your own newspaper to print it instead. An ISP >who takes a responsible approach and refuses service to any variety >of clients -- Patrick Townson Seems to be missing an important point here. ISPs are not Newspapers. They are not even Content providers. They are Common Carriers. As soon as an ISP starts deciding who and what they will carry, they make themselves liable for everything that originates, or passes through their system. Mr. Townson says to this What a cop out! What a damn cop out!!!! This is not a cop out'. his is a smart and necessary business decision. One of the major On line providers (Prodigy, I think) was FOUND LIABLE for a user's post BECAUSE THEY CLAIM TO CONTROL AND REGULATE what goes on their system. The judge ruled that the service provider did not have common carrier status because of this. >From a legal standpoint, the moment ISP's decide they will not carry something, they are saying they are responsible for everything they do carry, including e-mail, public posts, FTP sights, Websights, etc.... If Mr. Townson wants to publish a newspaper, electronic or otherwise, he can decide what he wants to carry. But If he wants to be a common carrier (ISP), And have the protection that the law provides for common carriers, He can not simply block a certain group, or person because he finds their politics or ideology offensive. This is not a cop out. THIS IS THE LAW! Neo-Nazi's use the telephone system. Should AT&T refuse to allow them to use the phones, just because they don't agree with what the Neo-Nazi's are saying? Of course not. In fact, they could be sued if they tried to do so. The bottom line is, If an ISP is willing to take responsibility for EVERYTHING that comes and goes through its system, then by all means, refuse to carry and propagate any offensive material, BUT if they want common carrier protection, they can not pick and choose what they will and will not carry. There is a legal precedent for this. I think all ISP's should keep this in mind before they start refusing to carry things. ISP's are not content providers, and they are not publishers. They are common carriers. Aside from any questions of liability, The best response to Mr. Townson was made by Voltaire, hundreds of years ago -- I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Keep talking Mr. Townson. Just because I find your blatant disregard for the first amendment offensive, If I were your ISP, I would not prohibit you from using my service, nor would I refuse to propagate any messages of yours that passed through my system. ------------------------------ == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 15:28:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA19039 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.mnsinc.com ([206.55.3.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14895 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from jnp-server1 (jking.mnsinc.com [205.157.131.123]) by mail1.mnsinc.com (8.6.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA09477 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:30:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:30:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199602292230.RAA09477@mail1.mnsinc.com> X-Sender: jking@mnsinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG From: James King Subject: Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Does anyone run FreeBSD on a Computer with a Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller. James King jking@ mnsinc.com From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 15:30:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA19322 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:30:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au ([147.109.1.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15355 Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdd.pacit.tas.gov.au (sdd.pacit.tas.gov.AU [147.109.2.93]) by falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id JAA18071; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:34:49 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960229223903.00741978@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au> X-Sender: sdd@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 09:39:03 +1100 To: Naohiro Shichijo From: Scott Donovan Subject: Re: NN Stat 3.2 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >toku@dit.co.jp has ported NNStat3.2 to bsdi and placed it in ftp.bsdi.com. >If anyone not yet started porting NNStat to FBSD, that package would be >a good starting point... A great starting point.. All but compiled first hit.. I guess I should put a "package" together.. Now I have to figure out how to do that. Cheers, Scott. From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 16:02:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA21849 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:02:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.mnsinc.com ([206.55.3.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA14895 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:30:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from jnp-server1 (jking.mnsinc.com [205.157.131.123]) by mail1.mnsinc.com (8.6.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA09477 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:30:48 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:30:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199602292230.RAA09477@mail1.mnsinc.com> X-Sender: jking@mnsinc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org From: James King Subject: Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone run FreeBSD on a Computer with a Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller. James King jking@ mnsinc.com From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 16:03:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA22043 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 16:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au ([147.109.1.8]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15355 Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sdd.pacit.tas.gov.au (sdd.pacit.tas.gov.AU [147.109.2.93]) by falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id JAA18071; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:34:49 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960229223903.00741978@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au> X-Sender: sdd@falcon.pacit.tas.gov.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 09:39:03 +1100 To: Naohiro Shichijo From: Scott Donovan Subject: Re: NN Stat 3.2 Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >toku@dit.co.jp has ported NNStat3.2 to bsdi and placed it in ftp.bsdi.com. >If anyone not yet started porting NNStat to FBSD, that package would be >a good starting point... A great starting point.. All but compiled first hit.. I guess I should put a "package" together.. Now I have to figure out how to do that. Cheers, Scott. From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 17:06:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA26751 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from okjunc.junction.net (michael@[199.166.227.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26741 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:06:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by okjunc.junction.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) id RAA14054; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:12:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:12:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon X-Sender: michael@okjunc.junction.net To: invalid opcode cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: the following is from cu-digest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, invalid opcode wrote: > Patrick Townson Seems to be missing an important point here. ISPs > are not Newspapers. They are not even Content providers. They are > Common Carriers. Bull! In both your country and mine, common carriers are defined by legislation and ISP's are not included. Common carriers are subject to various stringent government regulations in order to maintain that status. I have never heard of any ISP in Canada or the USA, not even the telco ones, who has claimed common carrier status. This is a polite fiction of wannabe revolutionaries who think that by imagining the government doesn't exist that they are protected from its wrath. In other words, this is insanity. Trust me, you do *NOT* want to be a common carrier. There are more legal restrictions and requirements than there are benefits. > As soon as an ISP starts deciding who and what they > will carry, they make themselves liable for everything that > originates, or passes through their system. Giving legal advice again? If I go to jail because I follow your advice, will you join me in my cell? Don't take legal advice from invalid opcodes that generate nervous coredumps. Talk to a lawyer. Ask them what the courts would expect a "reasonable man" to do in such situations. > One of the major On line providers (Prodigy, I think) was FOUND You think, huh? Is this the kind of rock solid base that your advice is built on? > for common carriers, He can not simply block a certain group, or > person because he finds their politics or ideology offensive. This > is not a cop out. THIS IS THE LAW! It may be something of a law for common carriers like the telco but it does not apply to ISP's. Even the telco's have some leeway to refuse service. Check your phone company tariffs for details. > Keep talking Mr. Townson. Just because I find your blatant > disregard for the first amendment offensive, If I were your ISP, I > would not prohibit you from using my service, nor would I refuse to > propagate any messages of yours that passed through my system. Sheesh! Not another American who has no idea what their own Bill of Rights says! For your info, the first ammendment starts out "Congress shall make no law..." and is a restricion on Federal government powers. The courts have extended this to restrict state government powers (and I believe municipal governments as well). It means the government cannot unreasonably restrict your rights to free speech, but it has no bearing whatsoever on private individuals or non-governmental organizations such as TV stations, newspapers and ISP's. A private business can restrict people's free speech as much as they want. Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 17:10:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA26936 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (root@[192.187.228.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA26930 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nervosa.com (coredump@onyx.nervosa.com [10.0.0.1]) by nervosa.com (8.7.4/nervosa.com.2) with SMTP id RAA27073; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:10:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:10:16 -0800 (PST) From: invalid opcode To: Michael Dillon cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: the following is from cu-digest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Michael Dillon wrote: > Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 > Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049 > http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com Okay, it appears as you have a reading problem, I said that was from cu-digest, NOT from me. == Chris Layne ============================================================= == coredump@nervosa.com ================ http://www.nervosa.com/~coredump == From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 17:33:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA28377 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from okjunc.junction.net ([199.166.227.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA28367 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by okjunc.junction.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) id RAA14502; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:38:16 -0800 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:38:14 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Dillon X-Sender: michael@okjunc.junction.net To: invalid opcode cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: the following is from cu-digest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Memra Software Inc. - Internet consulting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, invalid opcode wrote: > On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Michael Dillon wrote: > > > Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 > > Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049 > > http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com > > Okay, it appears as you have a reading problem, I said that was from > cu-digest, NOT from me. Segmentation violation: core dumped OK, so what is cu-digest? Michael Dillon Voice: +1-604-546-8022 Memra Software Inc. Fax: +1-604-546-3049 http://www.memra.com E-mail: michael@memra.com From owner-freebsd-isp Thu Feb 29 19:49:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id TAA09969 for isp-outgoing; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from overlord.dmv.com (root@[206.30.64.6]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09962 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from overlord.dmv.com by overlord.dmv.com via SMTP (950215.SGI.8.6.10/940406.SGI.AUTO) id WAA13746; Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:49:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:49:21 -0500 (EDT) From: Patrick Ferguson To: Gary Clark II cc: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ppp dialins with win95 In-Reply-To: <199602292142.PAA00418@neon.nwpros.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk Run Windows 95 using dialup Networking. It isn't as flaky as trumpet under Windows 95. Possibly because they need to set the default gateway. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Ferguson - Systems Administrator patrick@dmv.com DelMarVa OnLine! - Salisbury, MD On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Gary Clark II wrote: > Hi, > > I've got alot of customers with win95 and winsock. They connect, PPP/D runs > but they can not get out. Any ideas? > > thanks for ANY and ALL help. > > Gary > > -- > Gary Clark II (N5VMF) | Director of Operations | Good service at > gclarkii@Neon.NWPros.COM | Network Pros, Inc. | low rates!! > FreeBSD FAQ at ftp.FreeBSD.ORG in > ~pub/FreeBSD/docs/freebsd-faq.ascii > From owner-freebsd-isp Fri Mar 1 05:19:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id FAA10383 for isp-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 05:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from solar.os.com (root@solar.os.com [199.232.136.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA10377 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 05:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from jupiter (jupiter.os.com [199.232.136.66]) by solar.os.com (8.7/8.7.0) with SMTP id IAA07557 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:35:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199603011335.IAA07557@solar.os.com> X-Sender: craigs@solar X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 08:15:35 -0500 To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org From: craigs@os.com (Craig Shrimpton) Subject: Re: the following is from cu-digest Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, invalid opcode wrote: >doesn't exist that they are protected from its wrath. In other words, >this is insanity. Trust me, you do *NOT* want to be a common carrier. >There are more legal restrictions and requirements than there are benefits. > And, I might add: RATE RESTRICTIONS! =================================================================== Orbit Internet Email: craigs@os.com 400 Grove Street Phone: (508) 753-8776 Worcester, MA 01605 http://www.os.com/ From owner-freebsd-isp Fri Mar 1 06:03:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id GAA12340 for isp-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 06:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (mmdf@salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA12334 Fri, 1 Mar 1996 06:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from bell.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id aa26226; 1 Mar 96 14:03 GMT To: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Annex erpcd with 2.1.0R? (sob) X-Address: School Of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland. X-Phone: (Home)+353-(0)1-8204643 (College)+353-(0)1-7022280 X-PGP: Public Key on Request Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 14:03:24 +0000 From: Colman Reilly Message-ID: <9603011403.aa26226@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Content-Description: text I'm currently trying to install the 9.2.7 version of the host software for Annex terminal servers on a box running 2.1.0R. I've seen the archives, and I *know* people have got this working with FreeBSD before. Can anyone tell me what version of FreeBSD this was with, or has anyone else solved this problem under 2.1.0? The symptoms are: * The software compiles after applying the recommended fixes from the Xylogics site, and the Annex is able to boot from the running erpcd. * However, the remote administration command (na) does not work, failing with a timeout when I try to communicate with an Annex and the Annex is unable to communicate with the erpcd running as a security server. I'm not sure if the problem is at the level of networking code or something more obvious. * I have the TCP extensions turned off on the machine in question, and yes, I have tried turning them on just to see if it makes a difference. * The Xylogics support people don't understand this at all - as far as they know it all works with FreeBSD, but they're not sure what version. From the mail in the archive I suspect that it was either 2.0.5 or 1.1.5 that people were using when it was discussed. Anyone know? Colman From owner-freebsd-isp Fri Mar 1 08:37:31 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA23602 for isp-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nike.efn.org (garcia.efn.org [198.68.17.5]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA23596 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gurney_j@localhost) by nike.efn.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id AAA06613; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 00:18:35 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 00:18:31 -0800 (PST) From: John-Mark Gurney Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney To: James King cc: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller In-Reply-To: <199602292230.RAA09477@mail1.mnsinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, James King wrote: > Does anyone run FreeBSD on a Computer with a Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II > Controller. I do... right now I'm just using to control a "MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-8004 1.0p" drive... it works very nice... The only problem that I had was that my old 8bit scsi card didn't care about termination and this one does... other wise it was a plug and play card... John-Mark gurney_j@efn.org Modem/FAX: (541) 683-6954 (FreeBSD Box) Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD (unix) GCS/M/Sd#h+s+!gau-a--w++++vC+++++UF++++P---E---N++W---M--V--Y+t+5++G+b+D++ B----eu+h++!f++n---- CD5OUF++++.L-------2W.DM----N.9---NET2SP3s.2,4s.,4d.2,6--- From owner-freebsd-isp Sat Mar 2 01:45:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id BAA25890 for isp-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de (zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.63.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA25882 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 01:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.83.63.13] (apfel.zit.th-darmstadt.de [130.83.63.13]) by zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA11242; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:44:10 +0100 X-Sender: michael@zit1.zit.th-darmstadt.de Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 10:44:13 +0100 To: "Gary Clark II" From: petzi@zit.th-darmstadt.de (Michael Beckmann) Subject: Re: ppp dialins with win95 Cc: freebsd-isp@freebsd.org Sender: owner-isp@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Hello Gary, If the PPP dial-in users can reach your gateway machine, but no other machine on the network, then you must have forgotten to enable proxy arp ! Do you use the user mode PPP (/usr/sbin/ppp) or the kernel mode PPP (/usr/sbin/pppd) ? Michael From owner-freebsd-isp Sat Mar 2 16:10:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-isp Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) id QAA26922 for isp-outgoing; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ulc199.residence.gatech.edu (root@ulc199.residence.gatech.edu [199.77.162.99]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA26917 for ; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ken@localhost) by ulc199.residence.gatech.edu (8.7.4/8.6.11) id TAA23385; Sat, 2 Mar 1996 19:10:15 -0500 (EST) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199603030010.TAA23385@ulc199.residence.gatech.edu> Subject: Re: Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II Controller To: jking@mnsinc.com (James King) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 19:10:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199602292230.RAA09477@mail1.mnsinc.com> from "James King" at Feb 29, 96 05:30:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-isp@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk > Does anyone run FreeBSD on a Computer with a Adaptec 284VLB SCSI-II > Controller. Yeah, I'm running one under 2.1, with a NEC 3Xe CDROM drive, Sony SDT-5000 DAT drive, and a 4 gig Quantum Atlas (XP34300) drive. Works pretty well. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@ulc199.residence.gatech.edu Disclaimer: I don't speak for GTRI, GT, or Elvis.