From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 03:52:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA27880 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA27858 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA13459; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:51:48 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA06561; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:29:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970629122920.ZK59202@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:29:20 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: marcusz@petrat.com (Marcus Zafarano) Subject: Re: Apache References: <33B4F12E.173C@www.petrat.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <33B4F12E.173C@www.petrat.com>; from Marcus Zafarano on Jun 28, 1997 04:10:38 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Marcus Zafarano wrote: > I know this isn't a list for list for Apache, but does any one know how > eliminate the virtual host port numbers so that when one uses a browser > you don't have to type in www.????.???:[port number]. Huh? By default, the virtual hosts bind to port 80 (as well as the primary host). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 12:02:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13546 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de [160.45.24.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA13541 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 12:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ki1.chemie.fu-berlin.de (Smail3.1.28.1) from mail.hanse.de (193.174.9.9) with smtp id ; Sun, 29 Jun 97 21:01 MEST Received: from by mail.hanse.de with bsmtp for id ; Sun, 29 Jun 97 20:13 MET DST Received: by mwhh.Hanse.DE (Smail3.1.28.1 #20) id m0wiPBt-0002j7C; Sun, 29 Jun 97 20:59 MET DST Received: from localhost (bodhi@localhost) by tsunami.hanse.de (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25584 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:41:25 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:41:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Oliver Schmelzle To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Room in Bay Area (short term) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id MAA13542 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm a member of the BSD User Group in Hamburg/Germany. Though FreeBSD is the OS of my choice and I'm using it for commerical projects I'll be working at the Sun Microsystems Laboratories in Mt. View this summer ;-) >From July 7th until August 5th I need a room somewhere in reasonable commuting distance. My demands aren't high and of course I'll pay an appropriate rent. About me: - 23 years - studying computer science at the University of Hamburg - working as a consulat, lecturer and programmer for media companies Thanks in advance for any help or hints, oli. PS: On July 2st there will be the second anniversary of the BSD User Group Hamburg. I'm going to take some photographs (of Lars Kühl, Hellmuth Michaelis, Martin Cracauer, etc.) at the small event. I'll bring those pictures to the next Bay Area User Group meeting :-) I hope to see you all there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - oliver schmelzle - bodhi@tsunami.hanse.de ----------- in dust we trust - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 14:14:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17816 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from train.tgci.com (train.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17811 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emilyd ([206.250.85.68]) by train.tgci.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA20212 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:18:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199706292118.OAA20212@train.tgci.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" To: Chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 14:13:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: User group in LA/OC area? Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Are there any bsd users groups in the Los Angeles/Orange County area? Thanks, Riley From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 15:01:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA19179 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19163 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA18242 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:01:00 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.6.12) with UUCP id AAA18435 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 00:00:39 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.6/keltia-uucp-2.9) id XAA17982; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:52:40 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970629235240.23624@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:52:40 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Tour in the US References: <19970628192424.44753@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <19970628192424.44753@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Sat, Jun 28, 1997 at 07:24:24PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3392 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Ollivier Robert: > Anyone having a recommendation for an hotel in SF ? ...and in New York City ? -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 19:02:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27206 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from limbo.senate.org (nathan@senate.org [204.141.125.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27199 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 19:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by limbo.senate.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00396; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:01:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Nathan Dorfman Message-Id: <199706300201.WAA00396@limbo.senate.org> Subject: Re: Tour in the US In-Reply-To: <19970629235240.23624@keltia.freenix.fr> from Ollivier Robert at "Jun 29, 97 11:52:40 pm" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well you can always stay at the Broadway Mariott :) its a really great hotel and it has those leet glass elevators where the hotel surrounds an inner courtyard and there's a huge column in the middle, then you take the glass elevator up to floor fifty and watch the windows fly buy :) I'm raving aren't I. It's not exactly Fred's Lo-lo Price Cattle Barn though so bring cash > According to Ollivier Robert: > > Anyone having a recommendation for an hotel in SF ? > > ...and in New York City ? > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #20: Fri Jun 13 00:16:13 CEST 1997 > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 20:28:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00641 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00634 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA19742 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:28:29 -0700 (PDT) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux for the Nintendo 64 - they said it couldn't be done. Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 20:28:28 -0700 Message-ID: <19738.867641308@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk But it was.. :-) http://www.heise.de/ix/artikel/E/1997/04/036/ Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 22:26:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05035 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05027 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA06831; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 23:31:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199706300531.XAA06831@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Robin Melville CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Powered by FreeBSD logo buttons In-Reply-To: References: <199706280437.WAA24251@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Robin Melville writes: > Noone needs 6 colours unless you're doing special metallics (for example). > Would you accept 4 colour process? Due to limitations in the printing process used, 4 color process would not look good in such a small space. The manufacturer assures me I need to get a good 4, 5, or 6 color image and he will accurately match dye lots to the colors I send him. He can, of course, accept pantone color numbers, or can match whatever hardcopy I send him. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 29 22:46:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05755 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05750 for ; Sun, 29 Jun 1997 22:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA24302; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:16:17 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199706300546.PAA24302@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Monitor shadows? In-Reply-To: <19970630064702.UJ55456@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jun 30, 97 06:47:02 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:16:17 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > > Needless to say that this is almost impossible to get with these > crappy VGA connectors that are so `modern' these days. I really > wonder why the industry didn't adopt something like the Sun solution > when the VGA cards grew up to the dot-clock range of 100 or even 200 > MHz. The DB-15 might have been appropriate for 28 MHz, but it can > only lose in this respect at the higher frequencies. A _good_ Dsub15 will actually pass your signals pretty well. I concur that the average Dsub15 these days is total crap. On the other hand, have you ever tried to buy a 13w3 connector? They are _not_ cheap. 8( -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 02:03:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA13349 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13344 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id MAA13647 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:04:01 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199706300904.MAA13647@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: old cp/m game, anyone? To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:04:01 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk just something i've been thinking occasionally for a _long_ time... anyone remember an old cp/m game ladder? i was wondering if the code is still somewhere, and portable to freebsd, the game, even with just an ascii interface, was an addictive blast, i remember playing it ages with my pal's old kaypro 4 in somewhere early 80s. (ofcourse, the kaypro was new those days) i dunno which mailing list this would fit, but thought that since it's like next to the most irrelevant issues on the planet, chat would be rather appropriate... uh, let me rephrase, i wasnt suggesting chat is irrelevant... :p mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 02:14:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA13775 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgate.flevel.co.uk (root@fgate.flevel.co.uk [194.6.101.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13770 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (trefor@localhost) by fgate.flevel.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA27560 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:14:29 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:14:29 +0100 (BST) From: "Trefor S." To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD account offer. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone who uses freebsd at home but does not have direct internet access may be interested in this offer. **** Special Offer for a limited time period only **** Cybercity LTD are offering a 10MB unix account with the following features:- - Personal web space - Compiling facilities - Ability to run small Muds/Talkers/Bots - Full set of unix commands - Account managed by telnet or ftp - Free technical support All available for one year at the special price of 100 UKP (Excluding VAT). Additional disk space is also available. To subscribe contact: netacc@flevel.co.uk Or telephone: 0117 985 4455 for instant connection. N.B. Payments may be made by either cheque or credit card. Trefor Southwell Cybercity Ltd. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 02:23:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA13987 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pili.adn.edu.ph (pili.adn.edu.ph [165.220.57.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13972 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 02:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (art@localhost) by pili.adn.edu.ph (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07146 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:35:51 +0800 (PHT) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:35:51 +0800 (PHT) From: Arthur Alacar cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: quotes In-Reply-To: <199706300904.MAA13647@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk good day!! hello.. anyone know for a site that involves quotes for FreeBSD systems? hmmmm... something that brings in some humorous idea on FreeBSD.. just want it for fun... email back for any info.. :) tnx. |art| From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 03:37:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA16859 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA16854 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:37:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id DAA03624; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 03:37:29 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id MAA00500; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:03:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199706301003.MAA00500@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Linux for the Nintendo 64 - they said it couldn't be done. In-Reply-To: <19738.867641308@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 29, 97 08:28:28 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:02:13 +0200 (CEST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > But it was.. :-) > > http://www.heise.de/ix/artikel/E/1997/04/036/ > > Jordan > Yes, I saw this in iX (April issue). It was very clever, and there were very few indications that it was an April fool joke, but it was. I fell for it too. Check the name of the person at the end of the article. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 04:09:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA18258 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 04:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gfanrend.fishpool.com (toivotuo@gfanrend.fishpool.com [194.100.72.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA18250 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 04:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (toivotuo@localhost) by gfanrend.fishpool.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA28773 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:11:59 +0300 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 14:11:59 +0300 (EET DST) From: Tuomas Toivonen To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux for the Nintendo 64 - they said it couldn't be done. In-Reply-To: <199706301003.MAA00500@papillon.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > > http://www.heise.de/ix/artikel/E/1997/04/036/ > Yes, I saw this in iX (April issue). It was very clever, and there > were very few indications that it was an April fool joke, but it was. > I fell for it too. Check the name of the person at the end of the > article. Realistically - would a port to N64 be possible? Linux/N64 would make an amazing package: cool video games, NC capabilities w/ Linux Java support (Corel Office etc), X-terminal, home Internet station ... Lots of potential. -- tuomas.toivonen@fishpool.com Fishpool Creations Ltd http://www.fishpool.com/~toivotuo/ http://www.fishpool.com/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 09:26:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA02124 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02119 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA18573; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:25:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:25:57 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: mika ruohotie cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? In-Reply-To: <199706300904.MAA13647@shadows.aeon.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 30 Jun 1997, mika ruohotie wrote: > anyone remember an old cp/m game ladder? I may even still have a copy kicking around, but I don't think I had any source code. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 09:48:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA03515 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03509 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem09.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.39]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00229; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:49:52 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33B7FEAD.5C63@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:45:01 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mika ruohotie CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? References: <199706300904.MAA13647@shadows.aeon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk mika ruohotie wrote: > > anyone remember an old cp/m game ladder? > ... > mickey I remember it was pretty cool...something like donkey kong, but with characters. Perhaps when Caldera re-releases CP/M we can get a hand over that code :-). Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 10:33:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA05768 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA05760 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA22151; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:32:48 -0700 (PDT) To: "Trefor S." cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD account offer. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:14:29 BST." Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:32:48 -0700 Message-ID: <22147.867691968@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Anyone who uses freebsd at home but does not have direct internet access > may be interested in this offer. Um, I fail to see anything particularly freebsd related here and have to say that this is too close to flagrant advertising for -chat. Please, no ISPs advertising their special deals here! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 10:37:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA05980 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA05970 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA22220; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:36:59 -0700 (PDT) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Linux for the Nintendo 64 - they said it couldn't be done. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:02:13 +0200." <199706301003.MAA00500@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:36:58 -0700 Message-ID: <22216.867692218@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yes, I saw this in iX (April issue). It was very clever, and there Ah, damn - there was no date on the issue on the web site, so this never even occurred to me! Sheesh! Erm. Never mind! :-} Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 13:37:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14850 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (qmailr@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu [129.101.191.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14845 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18429 invoked by uid 666); 30 Jun 1997 20:37:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19970630133724.00792@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 13:37:24 -0700 From: faried nawaz To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: mpp? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e Organization: dis. X-Yow: -- In 2960, you could buy a pair of SHARKSKIN SLACKS, with a Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Maybe I missed a mail message on chat...did anyone find out where Mike Pritchard is, or what happened to him? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 17:09:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23858 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23853 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA27781; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:38:40 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707010008.JAA27781@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD account offer. In-Reply-To: <22147.867691968@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jun 30, 97 10:32:48 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:38:39 +0930 (CST) Cc: trefor@flevel.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > Anyone who uses freebsd at home but does not have direct internet access > > may be interested in this offer. > > Um, I fail to see anything particularly freebsd related here and > have to say that this is too close to flagrant advertising for > -chat. Please, no ISPs advertising their special deals here! This isn't the ISP that's gone MLM is it? > Jordan -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 17:54:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA26609 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA26596 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id SAA22133; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:53:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199707010053.SAA22133@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: NFS mounts on NT with Hummingbird Maestro To: scott@statsci.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:53:47 -3000 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199706301723.KAA25628@apple.statsci.com> from "Scott Blachowicz" at Jun 30, 97 10:23:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Scott Blachowicz stated: > Except that my experience as a developer is that we tend to try to work > on the oldest version of the OS that are customers are likely to have > on the theory that whatever we build on version N will work on versions > N+1 and N+2 :-( and not necessarily the other way around. Do you actually develop UNIX applications? Certainly not during the Sun-sponsored "upgrade to Slowlaris 2.0" fiasco. You couldn't do this with Solaris 2.0, 2.1, or 2.2, because they kept making all this incompatible upgrades between revisions, and NOBDOY was dumb enough to stay on 2.0 or 2.2 for longer than it took them to slide the CD-ROM into the drive. Your strategy is partially useful on HP-UX, if you don't mind a 15% performance hit (running 9.0x apps on 10.0x). It doesn't work well on AIX, where contrary to IBM marketing claims, most 3.1.x apps are useless on 3.2.x. And you though upgrading from FreeBSD 2.1.7 to 2.2.2 was tough! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 18:04:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA27272 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA27260 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13502 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:02:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199707010102.VAA13502@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: V7 source license To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:02:45 -2800 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Folks -- please take a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html and sign up if you'd like to join the petition... Us old PDP11 owners are trying to get SCO to consder licensing the old source code as well as binaries. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | This message brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 18:12:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA27593 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:12:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27588 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA17095 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:12:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:12:27 -0700 From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199707010112.SAA17095@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: San Jose ISP suggestions? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Okay, it turns out I may need to get a new ISP soon. This is annoying, because what I have now mostly works, and is quite cheap for what it is ($255/month for a single-channel Centrex ISDN full-time connection). Frame Relay, from what I can tell, would cost me at least $100 more, possibly closer to $150-$200, and would be less performance. (And, worse, it would require new equipment -- I've got an Ascend Pipeline 50, it works wonderfully.) I don't think there's anyone in my area who offers Centrex ISDN, so I'm probably screwed in that respect. Which probably means a full-time modem connection. (Which also means buying other equipment, really...) So... pointers, anyone? Sean. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 18:37:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29401 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliffy.statsci.com (root@cliffy.statsci.com [206.63.206.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29388 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plum.statsci.com (plum [206.63.206.43]) by cliffy.statsci.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/Hub) with SMTP id SAA22127; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:37:40 -0700 Received: from plum.statsci.com [206.63.206.43] with smtp by plum.statsci.com with smtp (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.3 #3) id m0wirsx-0007RHC; Mon, 30 Jun 97 18:37 PDT Message-Id: To: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NFS mounts on NT with Hummingbird Maestro References: <199707010053.SAA22133@xmission.xmission.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:53:47." <199707010053.SAA22133@xmission.xmission.com> From: Scott Blachowicz Reply-to: scott@statsci.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <14295.867721058.1@plum.statsci.com> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:37:38 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC wrote: > Do you actually develop UNIX applications? Certainly not during the > Sun-sponsored "upgrade to Slowlaris 2.0" fiasco. You couldn't do this Yeah, yeah...I was thinking of a general rule (and the warning that you get when the shared libraries are slightly out of date from SunOS 4.1.4 to 4.1.3, for instance)...or maybe a "sometimes good" rule...or ...whatever. We've been doing builds on SunOS 4.1.3u1, 5.3, HP-UX 9.x, IRIX 5.x, AIX 3.2.x (from what I remember from our last major release), DEC OSF/1 3.2, and they all basically work on later versions of their respective OS's, I think. > with Solaris 2.0, 2.1, or 2.2, because they kept making all this > incompatible upgrades between revisions, and NOBDOY was dumb enough > to stay on 2.0 or 2.2 for longer than it took them to slide the CD-ROM > into the drive. Agreed...a specific instance (albeit one from a company with a large market share :-)). Of course, I have this vague recollection that at the time people tended to try to avoid 2.x until some "it's OK" concensus was reached...that is, the stayed with SunOS 4.x for a while. > Your strategy is partially useful on HP-UX, if you don't mind a 15% > performance hit (running 9.0x apps on 10.0x). Well...I'm not sure what the status of 10.x was for our last release, but I'd bet that if we'd built for 10.x, we wouldn't be able to run the product on 9.x. It's a lot more practical for us to maintain one version of a product for a given platform, if possible, if it has reasonable performance. Vendors can maintain some for of useability/compatibility the other way around, but with the current state of crystal ball technology it's hard for the 9.x OS folks to support 10.x applications :-). Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 19:20:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01294 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 19:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01289 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 19:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonsai.hiwaay.net by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.8.5/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id VAA02405; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:19:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <33B86972.41C67EA6@hiwaay.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:20:34 -0500 From: Steve Price X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: problems with ISP dropping link during install Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, I know this will sound stupid, but how is the boot.flp image built. I just got my new server at work today and was trying to install 2.2.2-RELEASE via ftp and my provider kept waxing my session after a couple of minutes. I know while at home this happens too unless I do the following to keep the link alive: ping -i 60 provider.domain.name I ask because I would like to figure out how to put ping on the boot.flp image so that I can run it in the holographic shell during the install. Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Steve From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 20:35:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA04633 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:35:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04625 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA24419; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Steve Price cc: freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org Subject: Re: problems with ISP dropping link during install In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:20:34 CDT." <33B86972.41C67EA6@hiwaay.net> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:34:24 -0700 Message-ID: <24416.867728064@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I know this will sound stupid, but how is the boot.flp image > built. I just got my new server at work today and was trying Not stupid, just somewhat complex. Look at the release target in /usr/src/release/Makefile and play connect the dots. There are a lot of dots, so be also prepared for a non-trivial amount of study. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 21:18:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA07023 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07015 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freyes.dh.i-2000.com (slip166-72-219-103.ny.us.ibm.net [166.72.219.103]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA19574 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707010418.AAA19574@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 00:20:37 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Which tape drive and where to buy? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just got a new computer and I am looking for a SCSI tape backup for it. Could someone recommend a FreeBSD friendly hardware reseller in the US? I am going to check the companies listed in the FreeBSD site (that's how I found the compay where I bought the computer from), but any pointers would be appreciated. I went back to the people I bought the computer from (Atipa), but they don't sell SCSI tapes. I am looking for external and the best I have found so far (from an OS/2 reseller) is $499 including OS/2 backup software. It is a Seagate 4G/8G drive. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 23:07:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA10943 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10935 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA25306; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:13:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:13:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707010613.AAA25306@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: V7 source license In-Reply-To: <199707010102.VAA13502@shell.monmouth.com> References: <199707010102.VAA13502@shell.monmouth.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk pechter@shell.monmouth.com writes: > Folks -- please take a look at > http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html and sign up if you'd > like to join the petition... > > Us old PDP11 owners are trying to get SCO to consder licensing the old > source code as well as binaries. A few questions, Bill. o Do you know of any good PDP-11 emulators for FreeBSD? (pdpemu?) o Will the V7 binaries run on a PRO/350? I know where I can get one cheap. o Planning a V7/386 port? double ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 30 23:22:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11911 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11904 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA26626; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:29:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:29:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707010629.AAA26626@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Gianmarco Giovannelli CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: touch screens & FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970630093930.00a83350@giovannelli.it> References: <3.0.2.32.19970628155637.006c07c4@giovannelli.it> <199706300550.XAA08449@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <3.0.2.32.19970630093930.00a83350@giovannelli.it> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gianmarco Giovannelli writes: > Ok thanks, but I think I am so familiar with the WWW that I find the > search engines useless. :-) Funny, I've been using the web since it was text-only, and I find I use the search engines nearly every day! > Btw without joking thanks for your reply , I'll help him better next > time... I looked for experiences with touch screens too, so I > thought my mail in questions was not out of topics. I've used touch screens before, but we had DOS PCs front-ending the application. Each PC was embedded in a console and controlled two large screens (54" diagonal in the small briefing rooms, and 100" diagonal in the large auditorium), four smaller monitors (either 27" or 37"), two SGI workstations, and an amazing variety of video sources, including a digital camera and professional beta video tape, through a complicated video switch. The switch could put any source on any destination, or split the large monitors into four windows and display four sources simultaneously on each large monitor. The touch screen was the weakest link in the entire system. The program that was supposed to calibrate the touch screen failed about 75% of the time, and if it didn't fail, the "registration" on the touch screen would wander enough that by the end of a 1-hour briefing the user was guessing what to touch to get the screen he wanted. I hope your friend has better luck. The site I dug up *did* offer UNIX drivers; if they are willing to give out the source, it might be fairly easy to adapt them to FreeBSD. They might be more willing to give your friend the source if he offers to contribute the results to the FreeBSD project, or back to the manufacturer. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 00:53:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16901 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA16887 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id RAA29047 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:54:40 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01179; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:26:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970630172644.QH24240@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:26:44 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? References: <199706300904.MAA13647@shadows.aeon.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706300904.MAA13647@shadows.aeon.net>; from mika ruohotie on Jun 30, 1997 12:04:01 +0300 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As mika ruohotie wrote: > anyone remember an old cp/m game ladder? Sure, i still should have it somewhere, albeit hacked to fit into 64 columns. > i was wondering if the code is still somewhere, and portable to freebsd, No idea where the code might be. From hacking the pictures in it, i remember that it looked like it has been written in Turbo-Pascal, but i'm not sure, after this many years. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 00:53:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16922 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA16895 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id RAA29071 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:58:44 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01214; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:34:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970630173435.UH16698@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:34:35 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Monitor shadows? References: <19970630064702.UJ55456@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199706300546.PAA24302@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199706300546.PAA24302@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Jun 30, 1997 15:16:17 +0930 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > A _good_ Dsub15 will actually pass your signals pretty well. Hard to believe that it should really be uniformly 50 Ohms... > On the other hand, have you ever tried to buy a 13w3 connector? They > are _not_ cheap. 8( Well, but it's IMHO unrealistic to get a 200 MHz dot-clock across the same cables and connectors that have been designed for 28 MHz. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 01:05:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA17581 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA17576 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA00441 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:05:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? Stanford University provides tcsh as the default shell....apparently not being concerned about confusing all the hics from Iowa with its added features..... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 01:30:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA18512 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgate.flevel.co.uk (root@fgate.flevel.co.uk [194.6.101.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA18484 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (trefor@localhost) by fgate.flevel.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA09230; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:29:41 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:29:41 +0100 (BST) From: "Trefor S." To: Michael Smith cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD account offer. In-Reply-To: <199707010008.JAA27781@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard stands accused of saying: > > > Anyone who uses freebsd at home but does not have direct internet access > > > may be interested in this offer. > > > > Um, I fail to see anything particularly freebsd related here and > > have to say that this is too close to flagrant advertising for > > -chat. Please, no ISPs advertising their special deals here! > > This isn't the ISP that's gone MLM is it? Sorry - I thought people would be interested to hear that an ISP is using FreeBSD and making accounts available. Regards, Trefor S. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 01:31:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA18596 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA18585 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA00729; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:58:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707010828.RAA00729@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Monitor shadows? In-Reply-To: <19970630173435.UH16698@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jun 30, 97 05:34:35 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:58:46 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > A _good_ Dsub15 will actually pass your signals pretty well. > > Hard to believe that it should really be uniformly 50 Ohms... Not too hard to believe, just not terribly common on the sub-50c market. Note that your average VGA feed is 75, not 50 ohms. > > On the other hand, have you ever tried to buy a 13w3 connector? They > > are _not_ cheap. 8( > > Well, but it's IMHO unrealistic to get a 200 MHz dot-clock across the > same cables and connectors that have been designed for 28 MHz. No more or less unrealistic than across any other connector of similar size and cost. You can move microwave down a twisted pair, as long as it's carefully laid out; the same goes anywhere else really. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 02:07:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA20094 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.rdrop.com (root@agora.rdrop.com [199.2.210.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA20086 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by agora.rdrop.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA27288 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from j@localhost) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id LAA26368 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:04:03 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA05237; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:59:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970701105905.OS62513@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:59:05 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Monitor shadows? References: <19970630173435.UH16698@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199707010828.RAA00729@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707010828.RAA00729@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Jul 1, 1997 17:58:46 +0930 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Michael Smith wrote: > You can move microwave down a twisted pair, as long as it's carefully laid > out; the same goes anywhere else really. Sure, but for a Sub-D connector with its totally ``weird'' geometric layout, how would you ensure a uniform impedance? I think you can only ensure the latter for a uniform geometric layout, where the ratio between conductor diameter and dielectricum thickness is constant. Good that there's no topic off-topic enough in a -chat list. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 02:08:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA20139 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA20093 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from j@localhost) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id LAA26400 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:05:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05258; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:04:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970701110449.HK02109@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:04:49 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Jul 1, 1997 01:05:30 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Annelise Anderson wrote: > Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? Because there are five different shells, and six different opinions among the users about which one is the best. :-) So the only reasonable choice could be to keep the `historic' shells in the base system (where our /bin/sh is a lot better than /bin/sh's used to be historically), and leave it to the local admin to add packages as (s)he likes. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 03:20:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA22770 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA22763 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 03:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id NAA26899; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:20:21 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199707011020.NAA26899@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? In-Reply-To: <33B7FEAD.5C63@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro F. Giffuni" at "Jun 30, 97 11:45:01 am" To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro F. Giffuni) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:20:21 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > mika ruohotie wrote: > > anyone remember an old cp/m game ladder? > I remember it was pretty cool...something like donkey kong, but with > characters. Perhaps when Caldera re-releases CP/M we can get a hand over > that code :-). ack, yeah, it was like donkey... *sigh* so i'm "lost" and there's no way to get to play that on fbsd? no way to emulate? :\ :/ :\ :/ *sulks in a corner* > Pedro. mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 04:18:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA24720 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA24713 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id OAA27249 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:18:38 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199707011118.OAA27249@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? In-Reply-To: <19970630172644.QH24240@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jun 30, 97 05:26:44 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:18:38 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > i was wondering if the code is still somewhere, and portable to freebsd, > No idea where the code might be. From hacking the pictures in it, i > remember that it looked like it has been written in Turbo-Pascal, but > i'm not sure, after this many years. but you _had_ the code? i mean, based on the other response, i was under an impression the code was not free... > cheers, J"org mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 05:27:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA26689 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 05:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (eivind@bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA26683 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 05:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA14311; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:26:46 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:26:46 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199707011226.OAA14311@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Annelise Anderson CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Annelise Anderson's message of Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? References: Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? > > Stanford University provides tcsh as the default shell....apparently > not being concerned about confusing all the hics from Iowa with > its added features..... Bloat. We've got sh and csh due to the POSIX requirement that they both should be present, as many scripts use them. For interactive shells, there are a lot of different preferences, and we provide many of them as ports - so you can mix'n'match just those of them you want. A lot of people prefer bash or zsh over tcsh; some don't even feel bothered by csh, e.g. due to using emacs around the shell anyway. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 07:46:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA02412 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cse.unl.edu (cse.unl.edu [129.93.33.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA02406 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 07:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from obanta@localhost) by cse.unl.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id JAA21669 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:46:40 -0500 From: obanta@cse.unl.edu (Oliver Banta) Message-Id: <199707011446.JAA21669@cse.unl.edu> Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:43:06 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@cse.unl.edu In-Reply-To: from "Annelise Anderson" at Jul 1, 97 01:05:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? > > Stanford University provides tcsh as the default shell....apparently > not being concerned about confusing all the hics from Iowa with > its added features..... > > Annelise I don't know if this means anything, but tcsh isn't installed by default while csh is. You have to go through the ports to install tcsh and/or bash. So if you are sysadmining your own box, I would hope you could handle getting tcsh installed and setting it up as the default shell on your local system. Heck... even hick Nebraska boy can do that. :) -- ___ ___ ___ / __/ __| __| Department of Computer Science | (__\__ \ _| and Engineering at the Oliver L. Banta \___|___/___| University of Nebraska - Lincoln. obanta@cse.unl.edu From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 08:37:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04584 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from group.groupnet.net (ali@group.groupnet.net [206.54.250.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04579 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ali@localhost) by group.groupnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA20519; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:38:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:38:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Ali Lomonaco To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't think thats a good reason. Packages are very easy to install. Also its bad enough root's editor is ee by default. If people don't want csh as their editor, well then chsh is their friend. --ali On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? > > Stanford University provides tcsh as the default shell....apparently > not being concerned about confusing all the hics from Iowa with > its added features..... > > Annelise > > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 08:44:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04898 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04887 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21739; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:43:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:43:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707011543.JAA21739@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: V7 source license In-Reply-To: <199707010102.VAA13502@shell.monmouth.com> References: <199707010102.VAA13502@shell.monmouth.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Folks -- please take a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html > and sign up if you'd like to join the petition... > > Us old PDP11 owners are trying to get SCO to consder licensing the old > source code as well as binaries. Umm, the sources are all already released in the re-released Lion's book, so isn't this already a moot point? Am I missing something here? Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 08:55:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA05525 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05517 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 08:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21768; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:55:28 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:55:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199707011555.JAA21768@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? Because tcsh isn't part of the base system, and IMHO it should not be since it's 3rd party developed software, it's bigger/badder/un-necessary for most people, and tcsh is easy to install. I'm an anti-bloatist by nature. :) Nate ps. I use tcsh as my personal shell, so don't be thinking I don't like tcsh. :) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 10:16:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA09219 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grunt.grondar.za (plM9FhHKIiTLJ6o+62Hk5Itx5mKWQRU3@grunt.grondar.za [196.7.18.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09204; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (6Zpe9bWxiMwai1L2zBZkj2He6uM2wWbe@greenpeace.grondar.za [196.7.18.132]) by grunt.grondar.za (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00582; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:16:42 +0200 (SAT) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (ZtTGcrDzf/Eq+ejYZbKFxViIlIFxYEB8@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by greenpeace.grondar.za (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21727; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:16:41 +0200 (SAT) Message-Id: <199707011716.TAA21727@greenpeace.grondar.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org Subject: MArkM away on holiday :-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:16:40 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Tomorrow morning at some forsaken hour I will be off to the bush (in Zimbabwe) for a well deserved rest. I'll be back on about the 12th. Any emergencies? Well, erm, wait. Sorry :-) M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 01:42:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA19076 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from radford.i-plus.net (root@Radford.i-Plus.net [206.99.237.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA19069 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from abyss.i-Plus.net (stderr@SandCastle.i-Plus.net [206.99.237.44]) by radford.i-plus.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA13062; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707010840.EAA13062@radford.i-plus.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0 From: "Troy Settle" To: , "Annelise Anderson" Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 04:44:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Annelise Anderson >Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? I really don't want to help start a shell war, but the same question could be asked about bash. Personally, I use sh for scripts because it's always there... but, I much prefer bash to any other shell. (guess you could say that Linux ruined me for life :) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 01:36:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA18917 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA18912 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA27263; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 01:35:54 -0700 (PDT) To: "Trefor S." cc: Michael Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD account offer. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 1997 09:29:41 BST." Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 01:35:54 -0700 Message-ID: <27259.867746154@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry - I thought people would be interested to hear that an ISP is using > FreeBSD and making accounts available. Well to be fair, first off you don't even make it clear in your advert that you're using FreeBSD, you refer to it as "a unix account" throughout and the only mention of FreeBSD occurs when you suggest that users who already have FreeBSD at home may be interested. Second, you're hardly "making them available" in the charity sense, you're selling them - this is clearly commercial use, and perhaps all this shows is that there needs to be a freebsd-advert list (or something suitably named) where people who truly want to read such things can subscribe. I would not be opposed, though it's more up to our postmaster. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 11:43:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA13849 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from federation.addy.com (federation.addy.com [207.239.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13833 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slip129-37-112-199.pa.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-112-199.pa.us.ibm.net [129.37.112.199]) by federation.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA06202 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707011843.OAA06202@federation.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSD Chat List" Date: Tue, 01 Jul 97 14:43:50 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Francisco Reyes's Registered PMMail 1.9 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 09:43:06 -0500 (CDT), Oliver Banta wrote: >> Why does FreeBSD install csh as the default shell instead of tcsh? >> >> Stanford University provides tcsh as the default shell....apparently >> not being concerned about confusing all the hics from Iowa with >> its added features..... >> >> Annelise > > I don't know if this means anything, but tcsh isn't installed by >default while csh is. You have to go through the ports to install tcsh >and/or bash. Maybe I am been too technical but I just wanted to point out that tcsh is in the packages too (as well as BASH and other shells). I find packages a whole lot easier to deal with than ports. Even someone not very familiar with FreeBSD can get programs from the packages. I would also like to add to what others have said that it is probably not a good idea to make tcsh the default. I figure if someone knows enough not to like the default and know there is something better, they probably know enough to get whatever shell they like and get it installed. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 17:29:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02651 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02646 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA03515; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:58:01 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199707020028.JAA03515@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Monitor shadows? In-Reply-To: <19970701105905.OS62513@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Jul 1, 97 10:59:05 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:58:00 +0930 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch stands accused of saying: > As Michael Smith wrote: > > > You can move microwave down a twisted pair, as long as it's carefully laid > > out; the same goes anywhere else really. > > Sure, but for a Sub-D connector with its totally ``weird'' geometric > layout, how would you ensure a uniform impedance? I think you can > only ensure the latter for a uniform geometric layout, where the ratio > between conductor diameter and dielectricum thickness is constant. In the same way you do for any other low-loss connector I guess, make the geometry change gradual, not sudden, and choose your dielectric to suitg. FWIW, some of the RF gear we've integrated with has run 100MHz+ signals through D connectors; we were appalled to begin with too, but the RF people looked at us (the digital/software people) like we were nuts, so I have to assume it can be done 8) > Good that there's no topic off-topic enough in a -chat list. :-) *grins* -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 1 22:51:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA15543 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from innocence.interface-business.de (innocence.interface-business.de [193.101.57.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15538 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from j@localhost) by innocence.interface-business.de (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id HAA01517 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:49:02 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA06840; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:24:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970701232359.KP33715@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:23:59 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? References: <19970630172644.QH24240@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199707011118.OAA27249@shadows.aeon.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707011118.OAA27249@shadows.aeon.net>; from mika ruohotie on Jul 1, 1997 14:18:38 +0300 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As mika ruohotie wrote: > > No idea where the code might be. From hacking the pictures in it, i > > remember that it looked like it has been written in Turbo-Pascal, but > > i'm not sure, after this many years. > > but you _had_ the code? Of course not. I've only hacked the binary. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 03:48:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA28069 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA28064 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA04943; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Francisco Reyes cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <199707011843.OAA06202@federation.addy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Francisco Reyes wrote: > I would also like to add to what others have said that it is probably > not a good idea to make tcsh the default. > I figure if someone knows enough not to like the default and know > there is something better, they probably know enough to get whatever > shell they like and get it installed. I am of course convinced by the universal opposition to this idea that it would not be good to make tcsh the default shell. There are unquestionably many competing demands on limited space for a default system, both on disk and in memory; tcsh seems to be about 274K, and maybe 30K or so larger than csh. However, new users do not know enough not to like the default; they do not know that there is something better that is not entirely different but merely enhanced; and they don't know enough to get whatever shell they like. And in fact the process of adding a shell to /etc/shells, changing the default shell for a user, and installing the shell is a three-part process that is, indeed, in all its individual parts, simple-- and yet implies some sophistication about how the operating system works; and some investigation into what sort of a substitute for .cshrc may be needed (again simple, but not obvious). Meanwhile the new user is trying to get the right stuff in sysconfig or rc.conf, trying to make it dial in and dial out, trying to make it telnet, getting the web server set up, trying to make the printer print, maybe worrying about dot clocks, ppp, reconfiguring the kernel to get the sound card working, etc. etc. etc., and is stuck with csh...because ........ Obviously a minority view.... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 04:25:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA29020 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:25:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29015 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA22442; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:24:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jul 1997 03:48:46 PDT." Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 04:24:13 -0700 Message-ID: <22438.867842653@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > However, new users do not know enough not to like the default; they do > not know that there is something better that is not entirely different > but merely enhanced; and they don't know enough to get whatever shell That is not a failure of the distribution ideals (e.g. keep extras like tcsh separate from the default bin dist) so much as it is a failure of feature introduction. In other words, I could bring up another dialog at some point in the installation / setup phase which said "You probably won't like the default shells, so let me tell you all about the extra, special fancy shells we also offer! [sales job elided] So, which of these many attractive shells would you like me to install for you today?" and the user would neither know nor care that the shell came out of a package vs being bundled in by default. To the user, how they get there is irrelevant just so long as the option to install new features is provided in the appropriate context. Of course, correctly determining such context and writing all the "click the start menu at any time for new feature selection" user hand-holding code which enumerates the options properly is something which takes Real Work(tm), and it's rarely through lack of vision that these sorts of mechanisms don't exist, but rather lack of time. :-( > telnet, getting the web server set up, trying to make the printer print, > maybe worrying about dot clocks, ppp, reconfiguring the kernel to get > the sound card working, etc. etc. etc., and is stuck with csh...because > ........ No one has yet to adequately automate the procedure for getting something better? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 05:17:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA00675 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA00669 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25737; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA03865; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:17:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:17:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Annelise Anderson cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > However, new users do not know enough not to like the default; they do > not know that there is something better that is not entirely different > but merely enhanced; and they don't know enough to get whatever shell > they like. And in fact the process of adding a shell to /etc/shells, Perhaps a list of ``reccomended packages''? Hm. I can just imagine the fight that the would start... ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 05:29:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA00958 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA00951 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 05:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA26561; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA05013; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:30:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:30:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <22438.867842653@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Of course, correctly determining such context and writing all the > "click the start menu at any time for new feature selection" user > hand-holding code which enumerates the options properly is something > which takes Real Work(tm), and it's rarely through lack of vision that > these sorts of mechanisms don't exist, but rather lack of time. :-( No, it doesn't take any Real Work(c). Sysinstall already allows the user to read docs before beginning the install. A short blurb can be added to one of those docs. I don't think the README would be unsuitable (although I can envision arguments against it). A well-written explanation of the default installation is not required, nor one of the proposed additional packages. I think a simple "To make the most of your FreeBSD installation you may also want to install some of the following packages . You will have an opportunity to browse the complete list of packages available after the installation is finished." May want to mention something about those packages which are only available as ports. Hmm... Offhand, the first things I installed where bash, jetpack, fvwm, lrzsz, zip/unzip, ircii, lynx, xboing, and xonix. Making a list, I would remove jetpack and add a number of others. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 06:40:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04337 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:40:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04049 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA12897; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:32:52 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:32:52 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Annelise Anderson , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > However, new users do not know enough not to like the default; they do > > not know that there is something better that is not entirely different > > but merely enhanced; and they don't know enough to get whatever shell > > they like. And in fact the process of adding a shell to /etc/shells, > > Perhaps a list of ``reccomended packages''? > > Hm. I can just imagine the fight that the would start... ;-) > Fight? For what? Let's just have more than one of them. About 5 should be about enough and still perhaps fit on the boot floppy. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > > -- > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > tIM...HOEk > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 06:41:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA04400 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04364 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 06:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA12911; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:37:08 +0300 (EEST) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:37:08 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Annelise Anderson , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <22438.867842653@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > However, new users do not know enough not to like the default; they do > > not know that there is something better that is not entirely different > > but merely enhanced; and they don't know enough to get whatever shell > > That is not a failure of the distribution ideals (e.g. keep extras > like tcsh separate from the default bin dist) so much as it is a > failure of feature introduction. In other words, I could bring up > another dialog at some point in the installation / setup phase which > said "You probably won't like the default shells, so let me tell you > all about the extra, special fancy shells we also offer! [sales job > elided] So, which of these many attractive shells would you like me to > install for you today?" and the user would neither know nor care that > the shell came out of a package vs being bundled in by default. To > the user, how they get there is irrelevant just so long as the option > to install new features is provided in the appropriate context. > Well, so if I write a quick and dirty tcl/tk tutorial to the FreeBSD packages, I will not be shot on sight and someone will take a look at it? Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > Of course, correctly determining such context and writing all the > "click the start menu at any time for new feature selection" user > hand-holding code which enumerates the options properly is something > which takes Real Work(tm), and it's rarely through lack of vision that > these sorts of mechanisms don't exist, but rather lack of time. :-( > > > telnet, getting the web server set up, trying to make the printer print, > > maybe worrying about dot clocks, ppp, reconfiguring the kernel to get > > the sound card working, etc. etc. etc., and is stuck with csh...because > > ........ > > No one has yet to adequately automate the procedure for getting > something better? :-) > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 07:06:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA06118 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06113 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id RAA27147; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:05:52 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199707021405.RAA27147@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? In-Reply-To: from Pedro Giffuni at "Jul 1, 97 12:31:23 pm" To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co (Pedro Giffuni) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:05:52 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > no way to emulate? :\ :/ :\ :/ *sulks in a corner* > I thought you wanted this natively under FreeBSD...There are a couple of > CPM emulators available, but I haven't tried any. yes, but if it just runs, i'm happy even then... =) cpm emulator seems to be even ported, so now all i need someone being able to give me the ladder and i can test... *anxious attack* =) mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 08:20:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10049 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10029 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA11116; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:04:37 -0400 Message-ID: <33BA8989.233A@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 10:02:01 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hoek@hwcn.org CC: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If someone wants tcsh, someone else wants bash, so we should include both. Since everyone uses mail some of us prefer pine, others want elm, and others want mh. Of course some Linux distributions also include samba and tcpd. And noone should want to live without PERL5... Which shell you use is, in fact, almost irrelevant when compared to having other apps like a good editor. There should be an option on the package installation that automatically selects a basic set of utilities. And this could be done at various levels (packages for webmasters, "basic games" and so on). Perhaps an option that lets you select the whole branch of interest would be good. The problem here (IMO) is classification: how do you decide which ports are good or which are bad? Should we start rating them with *stars* like movies? Even if we recommend certain ports to new users, if they don't learn how to add packages they are losing the Big Picture (TM). Pedro. Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Of course, correctly determining such context and writing all the > > "click the start menu at any time for new feature selection" user > > hand-holding code which enumerates the options properly is something > > which takes Real Work(tm), and it's rarely through lack of vision that > > these sorts of mechanisms don't exist, but rather lack of time. :-( > > No, it doesn't take any Real Work(c). Sysinstall already allows > the user to read docs before beginning the install. A short > blurb can be added to one of those docs. I don't think the > README would be unsuitable (although I can envision arguments > against it). > > A well-written explanation of the default installation is not > required, nor one of the proposed additional packages. I think a > simple "To make the most of your FreeBSD installation you may > also want to install some of the following packages here>. You will have an opportunity to browse the complete list > of packages available after the installation is finished." > > May want to mention something about those packages which are only > available as ports. > > Hmm... Offhand, the first things I installed where bash, > jetpack, fvwm, lrzsz, zip/unzip, ircii, lynx, xboing, and xonix. > Making a list, I would remove jetpack and add a number of others. > > -- > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 08:41:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10866 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10861 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20373; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA00941; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:41:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:41:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <33BA8989.233A@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > The problem here (IMO) is classification: how do you decide which ports > are good or which are bad? Should we start rating them with *stars* like > movies? Even if we recommend certain ports to new users, if they don't > learn how to add packages they are losing the Big Picture (TM). I was a little worried that creating a list of "suggested packages for unfamiliar UNIX users" might conceviably offend some, and rating them with stars seems going somewhat farther! -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 10:12:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14935 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ingenieria ([168.176.15.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14926 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co by ingenieria (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA12060; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:57:42 -0400 Message-ID: <33BAA6F3.345F@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 12:07:31 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hoek@hwcn.org CC: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > I was a little worried that creating a list of "suggested > packages for unfamiliar UNIX users" might conceviably offend > some, and rating them with stars seems going somewhat farther! > Yes, and it's something very arbitrary anyway :(. I was showing, by contradiction, that no port is good or bad. But the problem is not really GUI, or adding bloat, related. The problem is helping new users install what they _may_ need; and make them believe it's all part of the base installation. (Honestly, I don't see what's so difficult in adding packages, but the theme comes on recurrently) Pedro. > -- > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 10:17:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15450 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmarso.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA15445 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lsmarso@localhost) by lsmarso.dialup.access.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA06949; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970702131506.25321@panix.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:15:06 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: mika ruohotie , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: old cp/m game, anyone? References: <199707021405.RAA27147@shadows.aeon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199707021405.RAA27147@shadows.aeon.net>; from mika ruohotie on Wed, Jul 02, 1997 at 05:05:52PM +0300 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I recall reading over 18 months ago that one of the IBM development labs had running "OS/2 Paklid" (another Star Trek reference) which was a cp/m emulator. IBM was intending to bundle it with the next version of OS/2, together with some classic utilities and game software. The commentator seemed to get a real kick out of the package he saw. I don't believe any such thing was included with OS/2 Merlin. But maybe someone with the OS/2 development team at that time has the source you're looking for. -- Larry S. Marso lsmarso@panix.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 12:15:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20578 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20572 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (buckpalace [206.173.119.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id PAA15779; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:15:41 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from cwolf.alaska.edu (cnc143043.concentric.net [206.173.207.43]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.5) id PAA16363; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33BAA90D.1B79@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 11:16:29 -0800 From: Mlduke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net Organization: ResumesByDuke X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subscribe End From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 12:21:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20869 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20858 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (buckpalace [206.173.119.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id PAA17241; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:21:21 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from cwolf.alaska.edu (cnc143043.concentric.net [206.173.207.43]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.5) id PAA17610; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33BAAA62.54B8@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 11:22:10 -0800 From: Mlduke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net Organization: ResumesByDuke X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Subscribe freebsd-chat ^D From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 12:43:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA21923 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (eivind@bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA21914; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 12:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA22302; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:39:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:39:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199707021939.VAA22302@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Narvi CC: jkh@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Narvi's message of Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:37:08 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? References: <22438.867842653@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Narvi AKA Sander] > Well, so if I write a quick and dirty tcl/tk tutorial to the FreeBSD > packages, I will not be shot on sight and someone will take a look at it? Well, it might become a port... TK isn't a part of the base system - we have a bit of a catch-22 here, as most of the things for making ports easy seems to be put in the ports... Perhaps if you also create a special menu-item etc for sysinstall and send Jordan the diff's? Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 14:22:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26737 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26732 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA16098; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:20:51 -0700 (PDT) To: hoek@hwcn.org cc: Annelise Anderson , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jul 1997 08:30:11 EDT." Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 14:20:51 -0700 Message-ID: <16094.867878451@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > No, it doesn't take any Real Work(c). Sysinstall already allows > the user to read docs before beginning the install. A short > blurb can be added to one of those docs. I don't think the > README would be unsuitable (although I can envision arguments > against it). Sorry, but I'm afraid that's just naive. :-( Adding docs only helps about 10% of the population - it's a worthwhile percentage and don't think that this is me saying that I'm against adding docs, I'm not. I'm simply saying that the great majority of users don't even read the docs currently provided. Reading docs takes an active step on the user's part, and users don't want to take such steps as a general rule - they want the installation process to do that and simply ask them questions if a configuration issue comes up. And if it sounds like I'm selling the users short on this, trust me - I'm not. :-( I've done front-line tech support for long enough to know that people just don't read the floppy docs and, if you're lucky, might take a peek at README.TXT before diving in. I probably answer the questions which are documented in full detail in *.TXT more often than any of the others. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 14:46:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27802 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27796 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id RAA22909; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:46:34 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from shag (ts003d14.sal-ut.concentric.net [206.173.156.74]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.5) id RAA04305; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33BACBD6.30EE1E28@concentric.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:44:54 -0600 From: Joshua Fielden Organization: Shaggy Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: hoek@hwcn.org, Annelise Anderson , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <16094.867878451@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > No, it doesn't take any Real Work(c). Sysinstall already allows > > the user to read docs before beginning the install. A short > > blurb can be added to one of those docs. I don't think the > > README would be unsuitable (although I can envision arguments > > against it). > > Sorry, but I'm afraid that's just naive. :-( > > Adding docs only helps about 10% of the population - it's a worthwhile > percentage and don't think that this is me saying that I'm against > adding docs, I'm not. I'm simply saying that the great majority of > users don't even read the docs currently provided. Reading docs takes > an active step on the user's part, and users don't want to take such > steps as a general rule - they want the installation process to do > that and simply ask them questions if a configuration issue comes up. > > And if it sounds like I'm selling the users short on this, trust me - > I'm not. :-( I've done front-line tech support for long enough to know > that people just don't read the floppy docs and, if you're lucky, > might take a peek at README.TXT before diving in. I probably answer > the questions which are documented in full detail in *.TXT more often > than any of the others. > > Jordan I can second that. At my last job, my most common convo was: ". By the way, that's documented in the help file, the README, the manual on page AND the tech support section of the web page." "c'mon, who reads the documentation?" the scary part was we sold, among other things, RAID 0/1 drivers, and still got this. :-) -- SCSI is *not* magic. There are many technical reasons why it is occasionally necessary to sacrifice a small goat to your SCSI chain. --Joshua Fielden From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 15:14:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28844 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28836 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA08133; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA03371; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:14:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:14:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, Annelise Anderson , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <16094.867878451@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Adding docs only helps about 10% of the population - it's a worthwhile Perhaps the 10% that it _does_ help is more valuable to the FreeBSD project (as users, that is) than the 90% that it doesn't help. > percentage and don't think that this is me saying that I'm against > adding docs, I'm not. I'm simply saying that the great majority of > users don't even read the docs currently provided. Reading docs takes > an active step on the user's part, and users don't want to take such > steps as a general rule - they want the installation process to do > that and simply ask them questions if a configuration issue comes up. All I can say is that relating myself, 1) I am one of these infamous "type first, read second" people. but, 2) When installing FreeBSD, because it was such a _huge_ and intimidating step (no prev. UNIX experience, little on on any [D]OS installation), I read every d* piece of literature I could get my hands on _before_ trying anything. 3) Then, it was possible to read most ports' descriptions to get an idea for which ones might be commonly used, but the ports list is now so large and cluttered that I don't think this is possible, anymore. > And if it sounds like I'm selling the users short on this, trust me - > I'm not. :-( I've done front-line tech support for long enough to know > that people just don't read the floppy docs and, if you're lucky, > might take a peek at README.TXT before diving in. I probably answer > the questions which are documented in full detail in *.TXT more often > than any of the others. Yes. I have heard you say as much before. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 15:55:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA00279 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00270 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA16553; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:43:02 -0700 (PDT) To: hoek@hwcn.org cc: Annelise Anderson , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jul 1997 18:14:22 EDT." Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:43:02 -0700 Message-ID: <16549.867883382@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Perhaps the 10% that it _does_ help is more valuable to the > FreeBSD project (as users, that is) than the 90% that it doesn't > help. But as a group of people who are trying to be professional OS "vendors", that is simply not our determination to make. Like family, one does not choose one's customers (as much as one would often like to, in both cases). Now the techno-elitist, of which there are many in the UNIX world, will always look at this classic problem and say "change the user", whereas the product-realist says "accomodate the user, if possible, since negative user feedback actually indicates _our_ failure." I am a realist, and I say that if people aren't reading the docs then we simply have to make the installation process less reliant on such doc-reading prerequisites. The old adage about leading a horse to water comes to mind here, and even the techno-elitist will agree that in designing any complex system, a good engineer attempts to avoid putting undue strain on the weaker areas of it or what's being built will probably only fall down. This goes for everything from bridges to large software systems, and in the latter case it's typically the user which is the weakest component of all. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 16:32:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01306 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (xtal131.xtalwind.net [205.245.61.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01255 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA10482; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:31:09 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <16094.867878451@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Adding docs only helps about 10% of the population - it's a worthwhile > percentage and don't think that this is me saying that I'm against > adding docs, I'm not. I'm simply saying that the great majority of > users don't even read the docs currently provided. Reading docs takes > an active step on the user's part, and users don't want to take such > steps as a general rule - they want the installation process to do > that and simply ask them questions if a configuration issue comes up. More than 50% of the calls we get from new luser that can't install the Internet software we provide can be solved by reading to them from the instruction sheet we gave them, or from the disk label. :( > And if it sounds like I'm selling the users short on this, trust me - > I'm not. :-( Actually you're being much too kind. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 17:23:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03496 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x22 (ppp1655.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03484 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 17:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by x22 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA05543; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:22:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <16549.867883382@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Cc: trimmed] On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > But as a group of people who are trying to be professional OS > "vendors", that is simply not our determination to make. Like family, > one does not choose one's customers (as much as one would often like > to, in both cases). Hah. As a professional OS vendor, would it not make more sense to pursue the customers who bring the highest returns on the investment spent to attract them? > Now the techno-elitist, of which there are many in the UNIX world, > will always look at this classic problem and say "change the user", > whereas the product-realist says "accomodate the user, if possible, > since negative user feedback actually indicates _our_ failure." Once again, yes, it indicates _our_ failure to change the user! I'm not going to argue against the idea that users of all sorts should be accomodated (in part because I agree with the idea :), but it doesn't hurt to point out that one can be too narrow-minded with the "accomodate the user" mindset, just as one can be too narrow-minded with the "change the user" mindset. > I am a realist, and I say that if people aren't reading the docs then > we simply have to make the installation process less reliant on such > doc-reading prerequisites. The old adage about leading a horse to 10% do read, remember? The question is the investment spent on this 10% is well-spent. [Again, I see you hauling-out your techno-elitist argument, with comparisons to family members. However, as realists, we can surely see that sometimes (I am _not_ suggesting "always"!) one _must_ concentrate on satisfying the group of higher-paying customers]. > water comes to mind here, and even the techno-elitist will agree that > in designing any complex system, a good engineer attempts to avoid > putting undue strain on the weaker areas of it or what's being built > will probably only fall down. This goes for everything from bridges > to large software systems, and in the latter case it's typically the > user which is the weakest component of all. Are you trying to say that all users are equally important to FreeBSD? I don't think that this does justice to your efforts, or the efforts of other major FreeBSD contributors. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 19:05:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA08390 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08385 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA17212; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:04:44 -0700 (PDT) To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: hoek@hwcn.org, Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jul 1997 20:22:16 EDT." Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 19:04:43 -0700 Message-ID: <17208.867895483@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Are you trying to say that all users are equally important to > FreeBSD? I don't think that this does justice to your efforts, or > the efforts of other major FreeBSD contributors. Essentially, yes, I do feel they're all of _effective_ equal importance. If I felt that we as a project were truly capable of judging "important users" from "unimportant users" with anything close to 100% accuracy, then I might feel otherwise. However, I've seen enough instances where someone came completely out of left field to make an important contribution that I don't think we can really predict that accurately enough, at least not to my level of comfort. Forget also not the "2nd tier" users who create the books and do the evangelism and otherwise carry out all the functions that many judge FreeBSD quite harshly for not satisfying. Where are all the FreeBSD books? Where are the magazine articles, ranging from those for the highly technical to the novice, for the FreeBSD user? Where are all the fancy applications? All of these are fueled by the users who might otherwise be judged "unworthy" by purely technical standards. It's a dangerous game to play, and all the more so because it's larely unnecessary. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 20:22:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA15606 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from train.tgci.com (train.tgci.com [205.185.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15601 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emilyd ([206.250.85.68]) by train.tgci.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA12521; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:27:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199707030327.UAA12521@train.tgci.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Riley J. McIntire" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:21:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? Reply-to: chaos@tgci.com CC: hoek@hwcn.org, Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Are you trying to say that all users are equally important to > > FreeBSD? I don't think that this does justice to your efforts, or > > the efforts of other major FreeBSD contributors. > Forget also not the "2nd tier" users who create the books and do the > evangelism and otherwise carry out all the functions that many judge > FreeBSD quite harshly for not satisfying. Where are all the FreeBSD > books? Where are the magazine articles, ranging from those for the > highly technical to the novice, for the FreeBSD user? Where are all > the fancy applications? > Jordan Fwiw I tend to agree with Jordon. As a new user--to Freebsd; a (former) hobbyist to Linux; and some application/admin experience with SCO. But most of the companies I work for have NT. And some FreeBSD. That's where I first ran across it. Take a look at the entries at www.ugu.com (sponsored by fbsd...) for FreeBSD and Linux under the Unix Flavors heading. Linux: Linux - is afreely-distributable, independent Unix-like operating system for x86, Motorola 68k, Digital Alpha, Sun SPARC and Motorola PowerPC machines. It is an implementation of the POSIX specification with which all true versions of Unix comply. The Linux kernel uses no code from AT&T or any other proprietary source, and much of the software available for Linux is developed by the Free Software Foundation's GNU project. FreeBSD: FreeBSD - A free operating system based on the BSD 4.4-lite release from Computer Systems Research Group at the University of California at Berkeley. I guess my point is that FreeBSD needs more evangelism. And deserves it. But with junk like the above who will go with Linux and who with fbsd? Where it's mentioned it should be mentioned in light of it's strengths, but it's always a footnote. It deserves better. Maybe some emphasis on ease of installation would be helpful. That's exactly the arguement I had the other day from a Linux fan--it's easy to install, has lots of help files. This person's expertise did not stand out. But he *knew* Linux was easy to install, was there to say so, and was loud about it. As obnoxious as I find people like this, it does get Linux (and MS) noticed. Riley From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 21:37:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA18305 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA18298 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA06489; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:37:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <16549.867883382@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Perhaps the 10% that it _does_ help is more valuable to the > > FreeBSD project (as users, that is) than the 90% that it doesn't > > help. > > But as a group of people who are trying to be professional OS > "vendors", that is simply not our determination to make. Like family, > one does not choose one's customers (as much as one would often like > to, in both cases). I will write an additional section for the newuser.html tutorial on something like "Your Working Environment" and explain how to install a new shell. This is probably where this belongs in any case. The copy of this on my own server gets accessed fairly often and I get occasional thank-you notes (as well as suggestions that I should explain "how to set up tcp/ip", which I'm not about to do), so apparently at least some people read it....and I think it's reduced the number of questions like "What is the name of the administrative account?", so it seems to have been worthwhile. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 23:21:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22941 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22934 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA07484 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:21:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA13322; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:52:16 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970703075216.YN00679@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:52:16 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports INDEX References: <19970703071231.ML15462@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199707030535.WAA01047@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199707030535.WAA01047@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>; from Satoshi Asami on Jul 2, 1997 22:35:17 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Satoshi Asami wrote: > * Is somebody going to emit a collection of Satoshi's tunes someday? :-) > > Well, you can try "cvs log ports/INDEX". Oh, you mean the one with > the melody? I'm afraid you need to come to Berkeley to hear that. :> Last time i've been there, time was too short to also visit you. I'll promise it for the next time. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 23:33:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA23580 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA23569; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA20356; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:31:28 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:31:28 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Eivind Eklund cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: <199707021939.VAA22302@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > [Narvi AKA Sander] > > Well, so if I write a quick and dirty tcl/tk tutorial to the FreeBSD > > packages, I will not be shot on sight and someone will take a look at it? > > Well, it might become a port... > > TK isn't a part of the base system - we have a bit of a catch-22 here, > as most of the things for making ports easy seems to be put in the > ports... > I (we) can statically link it. It would be usable after X was up anyways, I am afraid. I haven't ever looked into cTk. I will try to my vision of 0.1 alpha working by midday (~ 14.00 GMT+2) tomorrow. > Perhaps if you also create a special menu-item etc for sysinstall and > send Jordan the diff's? I am not sure I can do that. But I will give it a (or at least half a) try. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > > Eivind. > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 2 23:45:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA24169 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24163 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17993; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:45:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: hoek@hwcn.org, Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jul 1997 21:37:37 PDT." Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 23:45:03 -0700 Message-ID: <17989.867912303@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I will write an additional section for the newuser.html tutorial > on something like "Your Working Environment" and explain how to install > a new shell. This is probably where this belongs in any case. Great! Like I said, even though only a small percentage of users RTFM, it's still more than worth-while to provide FM and, if nothing else, it does save on answering the same question over and over if you can at least point new users somewhere. Documentation is a somewhat paradoxical thing: If you have it, people won't read it without additional encouragement (usually with the pointy end of something sharp) but if you don't have it, they will flame you to toast for not having TFM for them to !R. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 3 02:12:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA00342 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdchat@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00337 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 02:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdchat@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.6/8.8.3) id MAA07528 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:12:57 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199707030912.MAA07528@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: ladder? =) In-Reply-To: <199707021405.RAA27147@shadows.aeon.net> from mika ruohotie at "Jul 2, 97 05:05:52 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:12:57 +0300 (EET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk so, uh, did anyone have one that'd be runnable on freebsd cp/m emulator? =) mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 3 07:31:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA12474 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12466 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29656; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA06099; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:32:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:32:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Annelise Anderson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hoek@hwcn.org, Francisco Reyes , FreeBSD Chat List Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Annelise Anderson wrote: > I will write an additional section for the newuser.html tutorial > on something like "Your Working Environment" and explain how to install > a new shell. This is probably where this belongs in any case. This is good. :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 3 19:57:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA05506 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (we-refuse-to-spy-on-our-users@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05501 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id WAA11977; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:56:59 -0400 Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:56:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199707040256.WAA11977@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu CC: francisco@natserv.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Annelise Anderson on Wed, 2 Jul 1997 03:48:46 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: Why Not Make tcsh the default shell? From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I would also like to add to what others have said that it is probably >> not a good idea to make tcsh the default. >> I figure if someone knows enough not to like the default and know >> there is something better, they probably know enough to get whatever >> shell they like and get it installed. >However, new users do not know enough not to like the default; they do >not know that there is something better that is not entirely different >but merely enhanced; and they don't know enough to get whatever shell If you'd like to write an addition to the handbook... -- http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's. Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 00:46:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA14195 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA14189 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Greg Lehey Received: from papillon.lemis.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.970212) id AAA28834; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 00:46:35 -0700 Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) id JAA00413; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:30:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199707040730.JAA00413@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: V7 source license In-Reply-To: <199707011543.JAA21739@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Jul 1, 97 09:43:53 am" To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:29:22 +0200 (CEST) Cc: pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Reply-to: grog@FreeBSD.ORG (Greg Lehey) WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~grog X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: >> Folks -- please take a look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html >> and sign up if you'd like to join the petition... >> >> Us old PDP11 owners are trying to get SCO to consder licensing the old >> source code as well as binaries. > > Umm, the sources are all already released in the re-released Lion's > book, so isn't this already a moot point? Am I missing something here? The Lion's book only includes the kernel sources. Some other stuff (in particular, the C compiler) might possibly still be considered to be of commercial value. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 18:25:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA16490 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16481 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem03.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.33]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA01643 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:26:57 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33BDBDD5.786E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:21:57 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Invading Mars Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Since the USA decided to invade Mars to celebrate their independence, I'm stamped on my TV. I couldn't help pointing out to my M$-using friends, the program used to see the images, at least at first, was XV... did someone notice if XV was registered ? :-) Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 19:27:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA18255 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18250 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA12561; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:26:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33BDB0EB.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:26:51 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Invading Mars References: <33BDBDD5.786E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yeah, we noticed XV too! They were also using FVWM as the window manager, in focus-follows-mouse mode. Micro$oft---you've got a long ways to go before you can please the scientific community. (The print was too fine to see if xv was a registered version; if it was a registered copy, then NASA's money was certainly well spent!) -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 19:45:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA18894 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haywire.dialix.com.au (news@haywire.dialix.com.au [192.203.228.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18881 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 19:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.dialix.com.au id KAA18617 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 10:44:06 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.dialix.com.au: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.dialix.com.au with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 5 Jul 1997 02:44:05 GMT From: peter@spinner.dialix.com.au (Peter Wemm) Message-ID: <868070645.562380@haywire.dialix.com.au> Organization: DIALix Internet Services References: <199706301003.MAA00500@papillon.lemis.com> Subject: Re: Linux for the Nintendo 64 - they said it couldn't be done. Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <22216.867692218@time.cdrom.com>, jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes: >> Yes, I saw this in iX (April issue). It was very clever, and there > > Ah, damn - there was no date on the issue on the web site, so this > never even occurred to me! Sheesh! Erm. Never mind! :-} "Input media can be either the bundled console (see photograph above) or a PC keyboard via adapter. The first solution requires a bit of experience when entering text, because each character is represented by a 3 degree angle of the analog stick. Internationally less frequently used characters like the backslash were, therefore, not implemented." Could you imagine using the twist widget for character entry? :-) Or "less frequently used characters like the backslash"? :-) :-) > Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 20:30:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA19964 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA19959 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15605; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707050330.UAA15605@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Invading Mars In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:21:57 PDT." <33BDBDD5.786E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:30:34 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Pedro F. Giffuni" : > Since the USA decided to invade Mars to celebrate their independence, > I'm stamped on my TV. > I couldn't help pointing out to my M$-using friends, the program used to > see the images, at least at first, was XV... did someone notice if XV > was registered ? :-) > Hmm... I don't understand they are using Sun Workstations and Silicon Graphics Workstations. Win95 or WinNT was pleasantly absent 8) When I first saw XV --- I said boy that looks familiar and then Yeap, it sure it is a cheap project 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 20:35:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA20111 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20106 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15640; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707050335.UAA15640@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Sean Kelly cc: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Invading Mars In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:26:51 MDT." <33BDB0EB.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:35:01 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Sean Kelly : > Yeah, we noticed XV too! They were also using FVWM as the window > manager, in focus-follows-mouse mode. > > Micro$oft---you've got a long ways to go before you can please the > scientific community. Yeap it must sent great chills to the "business" types 8) > (The print was too fine to see if xv was a registered version; if it was > a registered copy, then NASA's money was certainly well spent!) > I wonder which OS are they running in the PathFinder? Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 20:49:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA20460 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co ([168.176.15.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20455 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 20:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co (unalmodem06.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.36]) by ohm.ingsala.unal.edu.co (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01757; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 22:50:17 -0500 (COT) Message-ID: <33BDDF6B.408D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 22:45:15 -0700 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Reply-To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Kelly CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Invading Mars References: <33BDBDD5.786E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <33BDB0EB.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly wrote: > > Yeah, we noticed XV too! They were also using FVWM as the window > manager, in focus-follows-mouse mode. > FWIW, the screen was so crowded, and the screen was rather small...was it a Linux box ? I wouldn't understand someone installing FVWM and XV on an SGI, but probably they are more trustable :-). > Micro$oft---you've got a long ways to go before you can please the > scientific community. > On the previous "Nextweek", Bill Gates was commenting it was "too late" for a Unix server beating NT. There must be quite a disappointment in Seattle... Pedro. > > -- > Sean Kelly > NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory > Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 21:04:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA20817 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20807 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28611; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707050406.VAA28611@implode.root.com> To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Invading Mars In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Jul 1997 20:21:57 PDT." <33BDBDD5.786E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 21:06:00 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Since the USA decided to invade Mars to celebrate their independence, >I'm stamped on my TV. >I couldn't help pointing out to my M$-using friends, the program used to >see the images, at least at first, was XV... did someone notice if XV >was registered ? :-) I noticed that the display was only 8bit pseudo-color as xv could only get 26 out of the 256 colors. :-) -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 21:06:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA20887 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20878 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA28659; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707050408.VAA28659@implode.root.com> To: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co cc: Sean Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Invading Mars In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Jul 1997 22:45:15 PDT." <33BDDF6B.408D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 21:08:26 -0700 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Sean Kelly wrote: >> >> Yeah, we noticed XV too! They were also using FVWM as the window >> manager, in focus-follows-mouse mode. >> >FWIW, the screen was so crowded, and the screen was rather small...was >it a Linux box ? I wouldn't understand someone installing FVWM and XV on >an SGI, but probably they are more trustable :-). The "cheap" machines seemed to all be low end Sun workstations of some kind. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 4 23:31:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA24824 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24819 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00283 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707050631.XAA00283@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: VxWorks went to Mars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 23:31:48 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes from xmission just sent this: http://www.wrs.com/html/jpl.html Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 5 03:15:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA29876 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA29869 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 03:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (local [127.0.0.1]) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01246; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 20:15:05 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199707051015.UAA01246@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: peter@spinner.dialix.com.au (Peter Wemm) cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux for the Nintendo 64 - they said it couldn't be done. In-reply-to: Your message of "05 Jul 1997 02:44:05 GMT." <868070645.562380@haywire.dialix.com.au> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 20:15:04 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Yes, I saw this in iX (April issue). It was very clever, and there > > > > Ah, damn - there was no date on the issue on the web site, so this > > never even occurred to me! Sheesh! Erm. Never mind! :-} > > "Input media can be either the bundled console (see photograph above) or a > PC keyboard via adapter. The first solution requires a bit of experience > when entering text, because each character is represented by a 3 degree > angle of the analog stick. Internationally less frequently used characters > like the backslash were, therefore, not implemented." > > Could you imagine using the twist widget for character entry? :-) > Or "less frequently used characters like the backslash"? :-) :-) It couldn't be worse than a single button mouse on a Macintosh with a "pulldown" keyboard diagram for entry of test. Maybe a flight stick would be the go. :-) -- David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia Voice +61-3-9791-9547 Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507 3:632/348@fidonet davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 5 07:38:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07662 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.8.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07654 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 07:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.fsl.noaa.gov (sage.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.42]) by rosemary.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA14586; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:36:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <33BE5C09.41C67EA6@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 08:36:57 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: m230761@ingenieria.ingsala.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Invading Mars References: <199707050335.UAA15640@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > I wonder which OS are they running in the PathFinder? Good question. There was even more freeware software that actually had an important part in the project: the flight software uses [incr Tcl]. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory Boulder Colorado USA From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 5 23:06:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08746 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA08741 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10146 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707060606.XAA10146@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: UNREGISTERED XV on SGI Workstations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:06:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just caught a glimpse at JPL using XV on a SGI Workstation and it was unregistered :( Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 5 23:51:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA11086 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:51:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA11081 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10455 for ; Sat, 5 Jul 1997 23:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707060651.XAA10455@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Could FreeBSD.org host a Mars Mission Web Page?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 23:51:13 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just noticed that sgi volunteered a web server. Cheers, Amancio