From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 01:34:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26820 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA26814 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:34:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA00397 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:33:48 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id BAA00615; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:15:54 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971109011553.UM35532@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:15:53 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI, about fonts on Xwindows References: <199711082040.PAA16703@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711082040.PAA16703@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Nov 8, 1997 15:40:43 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John S. Dyson wrote: > away, because it is just a config file. I cannot guarantee that you'll see > a difference, but I think that I do. The Adobe Type Basics (65 fonts) > costs $100, which is a bargain price for the fonts. However, that package > is licensed only for one machine. Well, what about using font servers? (I've got used to use them, mainly as `poor man's multithreading'.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 02:51:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00848 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:51:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA00833 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 02:51:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA01874 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:51:18 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA00593; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:46:58 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971109114658.YM26422@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:46:58 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make World Times References: <19971105232750.42817@keltia.freenix.fr> <199711080945.BAA27001@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711080945.BAA27001@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Nov 8, 1997 01:45:03 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat, for obvious reasons.) As Amancio Hasty wrote: > Same options as Olliver's make world. > > I get about 53:22 with my PPRO 200Mhz 48MB, Seagate Cheetah 4.3GB > (wide version). Hehehe. I had to assemble a small machine for a customer serving as an Ethernet router on Friday. The customer gave us a VLB mainboard that didn't even survive the installation without jamming. So what, an Ethernet router is nothing where high performance counts. (In particular, this one only has a single Ethernet interface, since it's only responsible to collect routing protocol information, maintain its routing table, and throw ICMP redirects all over the place upon request.) We dug out an old 386-sx/25 mainboard, and after playing with a number of SIMMs had to realize that the only set of memory that will work without parity errors in this board was the original 4 x 1MB set. So with a totally stripped down kernel (albeit i consider removing the bloat for syscons, too, before it'll finally ship), i thought it might be a good idea to also stress-test the machine in order to see whether it is stable (which is highest priority for that box). I've started a global `make' (not `make world' to save some unnecessary parts of the build process) by Friday night 2200. This process is now running for 37 hours, and it ``already'' advanced to libg++. Surprisingly enough, interactive response is still pretty usable, considering its system load and general CPU slowness. :-) (I guess a full rebuild will last for more than 100 hours, but i have to abort the build process by Monday morning.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 07:21:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15789 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15782 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:20:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id QAA04676 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:20:54 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA01446; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:12:55 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971109161255.EF33860@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:12:55 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware References: <19971108225215.ZD56214@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199711082318.SAA00360@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711082318.SAA00360@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Nov 8, 1997 18:18:34 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John S. Dyson wrote: > I have literally NEVER had a problem with IDE. (Except cable problems.) > However, I have been careful not to mix/match manufacturers. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ *smile* -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 07:37:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA16430 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16425 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA00402; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:01:35 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711091531.CAA00402@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Nov 1997 10:32:24 -0000." <199711091032.DAA24687@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:01:28 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > And it doesn't lock you into x86 to run the BIOS on video cards... > > > where's the fun in that? > > > > I don't give a shit what it doesn't do, Terry. > > Boy, no sense of humor. What it *does* do, then is make cards not > depend on particular processors. Sorry; I didn't want you hijacking the thread. But I guess it's too late now. 8) (redirected to -chat) It only makes cards independent if they have Fcode BIOS support. How many video cards have Fcode BIOS support out-of-the-box? Yes, they *could*, but they *don't*. > > What *I* care about is that OpenBoot is big, it is expensive and > > proprietary, > > That last arrow struck home (the others missed, though, if expensive > is meant in terms of overhead instead of as a subset of proprietary, > which would make your statement redundant. No, expensive is "Ask FirmWorks what it would cost to license their implementation". Unless you feel like trying to code such a monstrosity from the specification alone. > > and it is a complete crock from the POV of usability. > > Again, you only need to use it once. The code for the OS is similar > to what I've been pushing in terms of VM86 fallback drivers. You > don't use it except for the boot, so usability isn't an issue. "Only use it once" multiplied by *how* many new users? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 08:20:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20417 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20411 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:20:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id RAA21235; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:15:07 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12494; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:57:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971109165718.52687@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:57:18 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <19971104083220.52540@keltia.freenix.fr> <8306.878639450@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <8306.878639450@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:30:50AM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:30:50AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 768 MB RAM, 139 > > Gigabytes, 3000 users ftp and www machine at ftp.cdrom.com. You'll get > > network support including: > > Actually, 1GB, 142 GB, 2750 users. Is there an up to date hardware description somewhere ? And for marketing aspects: Couldn't we put a HTML page on the webserver, that actually shows this famous server in detail ? It would be cool, if we could show some pictures from different perspectives: one picture showing the whole rack mounted server and some more pictures, which show interesting components of the server. Perhaps a photo of the computer itself with case opened ... And then maybe a short description, what kernel configuration and such. It would be fine, if one could give people an URL, that shows nice pictures of the server instead of only telling some numbers ... The photo that has been presented in the FreeBSD News was a good start. But I'd wish we could provide some more views and of a bit better quality. What do you think ? -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 09:31:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23791 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:31:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user8685@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23786 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:31:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 9 Nov 1997 17:37:32 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:37:32 -0700 (MST) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI, about fonts on Xwindows In-Reply-To: <19971109011553.UM35532@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As John S. Dyson wrote: > > > away, because it is just a config file. I cannot guarantee that you'll see > > a difference, but I think that I do. The Adobe Type Basics (65 fonts) > > costs $100, which is a bargain price for the fonts. However, that package > > is licensed only for one machine. > > Well, what about using font servers? (I've got used to use them, > mainly as `poor man's multithreading'.) > That would be a big of a sin as NFS exporting them (But sir, they only reside on one hard drive!!!). Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 10:31:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26894 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:31:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (dcarmich.pr.mcs.net [204.95.63.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26888 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:31:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcarmich@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03209 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:35:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dcarmich) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Subject: *The* FreeBSD album To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:35:25 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1) Ports Tree Manager 2) Smoke On The Water (FreeBSD version) 3) Rock 'n Roll BSD (any ideas?) Musicians: Satoshi Asami - vocals Poul-Henning Kamp - organ, keyboards, Minimoog Greg "Grog" Lehey - woodwind Jordan Hubbard - drum programming, lead guitar Soren Schmidt - bass Seriously, are any of you FreeBSDers musicians? This would be a pretty neat project. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 10:44:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27353 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:44:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27348 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if3-36.ida.net [208.141.171.141]) by srv.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06239; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:44:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:44:01 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Alfred Perlstein cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDT processors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to -chat from -hackers] On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > from what i've heard the IDT chip's FPU is garbage, and it's integer > performance is terrible. This from the IDT data sheet: "The floating-point unit is designed to maximize clock frequency and to minimize chip size while providing adequate levels of floating-point performance for typical desktop use. Some floating-point instructions are pipelined, but some are only partially pipelined." So perhaps Alfred's description of the FPU is on the mark. IDT admits they are targeting the low-end, socket 7 part of the market. Still, most people who have done some digital circuit design take IDT seriously. I wonder if somehow slot-1 is Intel's equivalent of the IBM microchannel bus? Intel's competitor's might be wise to establish an alternate socket spec, basically one with growth capacity to 128 bit data paths. It is now possible for a team of 20 people to design a Pentium clone in two years or less. Intel has an incentive to make their technology as obtuse and complex as possible (just like Mircrosoft has an incentive to continuously add glop to their OS). IDT says in their documentation that they dumped most of the more obscure Intel instructions into slow microcode and basically concetrated on a decent RISC core. Charles Mott [I'm finished with posts on this non-FreeBSD subject] From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 10:50:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27661 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:50:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27641 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA09508 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:50:49 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA00519; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:48:04 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971109194803.IW01413@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:48:03 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD Chat) Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <19971104083220.52540@keltia.freenix.fr> <8306.878639450@time.cdrom.com> <19971109165718.52687@klemm.gtn.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19971109165718.52687@klemm.gtn.com>; from Andreas Klemm on Nov 9, 1997 16:57:18 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andreas Klemm wrote: (wcarchive) > Couldn't we put a HTML page on the webserver, that actually > shows this famous server in detail ? I think there is one, although it seems the reference has been removed recently from the FTP login banner. > It would be cool, if we could show some pictures from different > perspectives: Pah, that's olds. Look at the WWW server, there's indeed a picture. > one picture showing the whole rack mounted server > and some more pictures, which show interesting components > of the server. Perhaps a photo of the computer itself with > case opened ... Look at the picture, i think it looks boring enough to not demand more than one of them. :-) A great server is nothing that looks optically interesting. When i've first seen freefall last year, when it was still sitting in a mini-tower case, it was really de-impressing. David Greenman told me: ``Well, you could probably call it "depressing".'' ;-) The only really impressing `feature' of freefall is the red SCSI LED that's continuously flickering. Thanks to the people living in various timezones of the earth, i suppose it's flickering the entire day. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 11:21:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29411 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:21:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29403 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:21:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA00452 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:20:43 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA00598; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:54:53 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971109195452.QH10719@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:54:52 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *The* FreeBSD album References: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net>; from Douglas Carmichael on Nov 9, 1997 11:35:25 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Douglas Carmichael wrote: > Seriously, are any of you FreeBSDers musicians? This would be a pretty neat > project. Funny enough, i know four of the five guys you've mentioned in person (and only missed Satoshi due to lack of time when being in the Bay Area). Well, i assume Satoshi's the best musician of them. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 11:21:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29452 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:21:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29424 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:21:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA00468; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:21:17 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA00618; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:02:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971109200214.ZJ19808@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:02:14 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (FreeBSD chat list) Cc: perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu (Alfred Perlstein), rivers@dignus.com (Thomas David Rivers) Subject: Re: IDT processors? References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Nov 9, 1997 12:35:42 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to chat.) As Alfred Perlstein wrote: > sorry for the rant, anyone know where can get a bug free chip? someone > has to be making them... :) You're overly optimistic. CPU bugs aren't anything new, and Intel doesn't have a copyright on them either. :-) When i started doing Unix, this was with Data General's DG/UX, somewhere in 1991. After some time, i was trying to debug a program that constantly behaved differently under the debugger than straight- through. With quite a lot of effort, i had to find that the Motorola MC88000 CPU simply botched some flags when doing hardware (instruc- tion-level) tracing. The result of some comparision has been marked `less than', `equal', and `greater then' at the same time. :-O Motorola has fixed the bug in later revisions of their CPU. Data General had even a builtin ``silicon filter'' in their compiler, to work around CPU bugs. Maybe Thomas Rivers can tell us more about it... i know he's been one of the principal gcc hackers with DG back in those days. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 11:45:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00876 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from 7.netdesign1.com ([208.13.245.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00871 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:45:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eagriff@7.netdesign1.com) Received: from 7.netdesign1.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 7.netdesign1.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10753; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:44:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 14:44:06 -0500 (EST) Organization: NetDesign From: "Eric A. Griff" To: Douglas Carmichael Subject: RE: *The* FreeBSD album Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 09-Nov-97 Douglas Carmichael wrote: >1) Ports Tree Manager >2) Smoke On The Water (FreeBSD version) >3) Rock 'n Roll BSD >(any ideas?) > >Musicians: >Satoshi Asami - vocals >Poul-Henning Kamp - organ, keyboards, Minimoog >Greg "Grog" Lehey - woodwind >Jordan Hubbard - drum programming, lead guitar >Soren Schmidt - bass > >Seriously, are any of you FreeBSDers musicians? This would be a pretty neat >project. > > > I play a little guitar (Just a little (Heavy Metal)) , and a little more trumpet(still little). -------------- Eric A. Griff From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 11:49:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01231 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:49:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01226 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA26586; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:49:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711091949.OAA26586@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" In-Reply-To: <19971109194803.IW01413@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 9, 97 07:48:03 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:49:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch said: > > Look at the picture, i think it looks boring enough to not demand more > than one of them. :-) A great server is nothing that looks optically > interesting. > One just doesn't normally see the electrons moving around :-). -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 12:25:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02780 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:25:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02763 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:24:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rivers@dignus.com) Received: from ponds.dignus.com (ponds.vnet.net [166.82.177.48]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA07263; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lakes.dignus.com (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by ponds.dignus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17116; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.dignus.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) id PAA08445; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:30:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:30:36 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199711092030.PAA08445@lakes.dignus.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Subject: Re: IDT processors? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > sorry for the rant, anyone know where can get a bug free chip? someone > > has to be making them... :) > > You're overly optimistic. CPU bugs aren't anything new, and Intel > doesn't have a copyright on them either. :-) > > When i started doing Unix, this was with Data General's DG/UX, > somewhere in 1991. After some time, i was trying to debug a program > that constantly behaved differently under the debugger than straight- > through. With quite a lot of effort, i had to find that the Motorola > MC88000 CPU simply botched some flags when doing hardware (instruc- > tion-level) tracing. The result of some comparision has been marked > `less than', `equal', and `greater then' at the same time. :-O > > Motorola has fixed the bug in later revisions of their CPU. > > Data General had even a builtin ``silicon filter'' in their compiler, > to work around CPU bugs. Maybe Thomas Rivers can tell us more about > it... i know he's been one of the principal gcc hackers with DG back > in those days. > > -- > cheers, J"org > Well - unfortunately I can't shed any light on that. I was part of a team doing 88k stuff separate from GCC. We were tasked with helping LPI (now Liant) getting their PL/1, COBOL, FORTRAN, etc... compilers running on the 88k. The gcc stuff was done in a separate group. I do know they did excellent work, though, thanks to the diligent efforts of a guy named Tom Wood. I understand some of the more modern GCC improvements came from his efforts. Also, I left DG in Dec. '89; which is, unfortunately, before the time we're talking about... (I believe the first 'round of AViiONs had shipped, but nothing more before I left.) - Dave Rivers - From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 13:25:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05630 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:25:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (dcarmich.pr.mcs.net [204.95.63.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05616 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcarmich@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05743; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:27:07 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dcarmich) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199711092027.OAA05743@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Subject: An interesting article about the Microsoft "monopoly" To: lsmith@lr.net, w88carm@aol.com, 105203.3133@compuserve.com, jimbeardsley@juno.com Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:27:04 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The Info- Baron: Bill Gates and Microsoft by Andrew Wheat A MEGALOMANIAC SEEKING TO BE THE WORLDS MOST POWERFUL person in the coming century might logically conclude that the best stepping stone to this goal is to take control of the computer-driven information industry. To do so, she would have to overcome two main obstacles: Intel and Microsoft . Though Intel has 85 percent of the personal computer (PC) microprocessor market, Microsoft, with more than 70 percent of the PC operating system market and most of the market for many leading software programs, is arguably even more strategically situated. Since most mass-market computer software programs must be designed to run on Microsofts operating systems - DOS and Windows - the company wields enormous influence over the smaller software companies that it rivals. What is more, Microsoft has positioned itself to extend its tentacles downstream to produce and sell a whole new array of online multimedia and information systems, including home banking and other personal computing services. Given its huge share of the critical PC operating system market, critics argue that there is little room for fair competition in whatever branch of the computer-information industry that Microsoft chooses to enter. If these charges are true, fair entry and industry competition are stifled, thereby depriving other companies of business and denying product choice and competitive prices to consumers. Some critics suggest that the implications are even broader and more ominous. Vast concentrations of economic power corrode democracy, particularly when the commodity in question is information. "This is an area where the public interest community must get involved because this sort of technology in the hands of consumers and public interest groups gives tremendous access to information systems," says a former public interest lawyer who works in one of the Silicon Valleys leading PC intellectual property practices. "To turn the keys to all of that over to a megacorporation like Microsoft is unconscionable," says the lawyer, who requested anonymity on behalf of his clients. As a testament to the firm grip that the worlds largest software producer holds on this $77 billion industry, its rivals will not publicly challenge Microsofts most questionable business practices for fear that the company would retaliate. But recently, a lone judges ruling and the Justice Departments first imposition of checks on Microsofts expansion have given lesser software titans hope that the government or the courts may curb Microsofts unrelenting growth. Microsofts business practices have been the subject of federal antitrust investigations for five years, and, in the past 12 months, the Justice Department, ever so gently, has begun to rein in Microsoft. Modus operandi The springboard for Microsofts software dominance was IBM s 1980 selection of Microsoft DOS as the operating system for IBMs popular line of personal computers (PCs). A computers operating system is the basic set of instructions it follows. It acts as the go-between that makes the machine (or "hardware") interact productively with the programs (or "software") that instruct a PC to perform such tasks as word processing, number crunching, electronic communications or computerized games. By licensing DOS to IBM and dozens of manufacturers of cheap IBM clones, Microsoft took up residence in more than 120 million PCs around the world, well over 70 percent of the market. Critics say Microsoft and its founder, Bill Gates, exploited their control of the industrys standard operating system to expand Microsofts commanding share of the software market. Microsoft counters that the market is competitive and its market share of software reflects the popularity of its products. Once Microsofts operating systems became the industry standard, many consumers were reluctant to invest the time and frustration needed to master a new operating system. Consumers also shopped for computer products that were compatible with DOS and its more user-friendly offspring, Windows. As a result, Microsoft found itself in a position where it could play hardball with manufacturers of both computer hardware and software. Since demand was limited for PCs that lacked Microsoft operating systems, PC manufacturers felt compelled to license this technology on terms dictated by Microsoft. "These are classic anticompetitive practices by Microsoft because they have the market power to force people to play their game," the Silicon Valley lawyer says. Similarly, Microsoft operating systems were the means through which most software interacted with a PC, which gave Microsoft significant control over software production. To be a relevant player in the PC market, most software engineers must design programs to work with the operating systems that Microsoft is continually updating and improving. Software developed by engineers with incomplete information about an operating system is likely to contain serious flaws. Obviously, the company with the most up-to-date information about Microsoft operating systems is Microsoft. This is an increasingly decisive advantage, as Microsoft aggressively seeks to acquire rival software companies and expand its offerings of in-house software and other spin-off products. Another advantage Microsoft enjoys is that many software companies submit prototypes of their newest products to ensure that they will be compatible with next-generation versions of Microsoft operating systems, a practice that gives Microsoft an opportunity to preview competitors new software. For Apple Computer , Microsofts growing dominance has been a double-edged sword that has been wielded against Apples hardware and software. As Windows establishes itself as the industry standard, there is less incentive for software makers to design programs that run on Apple Macintosh computers. The relative shortage of software for Apples encourages more consumers to buy PCs rather than Macintosh computers. Apple also has alleged that Microsoft kept details of its coming Windows 95 operating and graphics interface system from Apple for more than a year - until the U.S. Justice Departments Antitrust Division urged Microsoft to share the information with Apple. Gary Reback of Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati, Silicon Valleys leading intellectual property law firm, submitted other antitrust charges against Microsoft to federal courts earlier this year as a federal judge reviewed an antitrust settlement between Microsoft and the Justice Department. Rebacks charges are controversial because he made them on behalf of anonymous clients in the software industry, who industry observers suspect come from a small pool of lesser titans: Apple, Sybase, Borland, Novell and Sun. When it became clear that the federal judge would listen to such charges, Apple complained openly about Microsoft practices. Reback says his clients will not challenge Microsoft publicly due to concerns about retaliation from the industry giant. Microsoft argues that anonymity violates its due process rights. Prominent among Rebacks allegations are two alleged Microsoft practices: o Deriving unfair advantages in software development by providing in-house software engineers with details of Microsoft operating systems that are not disclosed to competitors; o Announcing the pending introduction of fictitious or premature products, so- called "vaporware," to discourage consumers from buying competing products by suggesting that a competitors product will soon be obsolete. Among the supporting documents that Reback submitted to the courts were two internal Microsoft employee self-evaluation forms. Reback presented these evaluations as smoking-gun evidence of Microsofts vaporware tactics against competitor Borland International. One Microsoft marketing employee wrote, "I developed a rollout plan for QuickC and CS that focused on minimizing Borlands first mover advantage by preannouncing with an aggressive communications campaign." QuickC is a software tool used by engineers to develop other software programs. Operating the system A three-year Federal Trade Commission (FTC) investigation into antitrust charges against Microsoft ended when the FTC commissioners deadlocked over whether to take action against the company. Then, the Justice Department stepped in. Justices complaint against Microsoft focused on business practices that it concluded "may have contributed to Microsofts maintenance of monopoly power" and threatened "to impede future innovation and competition in [computer] operating systems." In its complaint, which it released in August 1994 along with a consent agreement with which the government and Microsoft proposed to settle the charges, Justice charged Microsoft with four anticompetitive practices: o All or nothing - Microsoft required computer manufacturers which wanted to carry its operating systems to pay a licensing fee for each PC they shipped - even those that did not include a Microsoft operating system. o Long terms - The all-or-nothing licensing agreements that Microsoft signed with PC manufacturers carried terms of two to three years, a sharply restrictive time commitment in an industry that continually reinvents itself. o Volume pricing - Microsoft offered discounts to PC manufacturers who would agree to license a minimum number of operating systems during Microsofts long licensing terms, another binding commitment for companies that depend on agility and flexibility. o Nondisclosure - In making its operating system codes available to software designers, Microsoft insisted on long-term nondisclosure agreements with software vendors about the content of those codes that exceeded Microsofts legitimate interest in preventing its proprietary secrets from being passed to rival operating system developers. Its nondisclosure agreements were so strict as to discourage other software companies from independently developing their own operating systems or designing software for competing operating systems. Under the Justice-Microsoft settlement - which the company reportedly has implemented - Microsoft abandoned volume pricing and all-or-nothing licensing agreements. It also capped license terms at one year and limited the terms of its nondisclosure agreements with software companies to either one year or the date of a new operating systems commercial release, whichever comes first. In consenting to these agreements, Microsoft denied that any of its practices violate antitrust laws or are unethical. Although the settlement addressed Justices charges, the lesser titans - which include such computer companies as Apple, Sun Microsystems , Borland International , Sybase , America Online , Oracle , Lotus and Novell - regard it as wholly inadequate to the scale of Microsofts dominance of the industry. The consent agreement confines itself to remedies that, with varying degrees of success, address Microsofts licensing of PC operating systems. What disturbs the lesser titans is how much the agreement overlooks. Survival of the biggest? The settlement agreements limited focus on PCs worries Sun Microsystems, a Microsoft rival that produces software and computer workstations (computers that are more sophisticated than PCs), a market that the agreement leaves Microsoft free to dominate. A couple years ago, Microsoft introduced the Windows NT Workstation system. Windows NT is faster and has more sophisticated networking capabilities than Windows for PCs. George Paolini, a spokesperson in Suns Mountain View, California headquarters, declines to respond directly to questions about whether Sun is concerned about Microsoft eventually dominating workstation operating systems to the degree that it has captured the PC market today. "Windows NT is not included in the [Microsoft-Justice] consent agreement," Paolini says. "You can infer from that what our concern might be." The most far-reaching limitation of the consent agreement for consumers and other software companies is its exclusive focus on operating systems. Nothing in the agreement prevents Microsoft from aggressively expanding its current dominance of PC operating systems (DOS and Windows), word processing (MS-Word) and mathematical spreadsheets (MS-Excel) into entirely new software realms. Last October, the company made a $1.5 billion bid to acquire Menlo Park, California-based Intuit Inc. This acquisition would have made Microsoft a leader in financial software and services. Intuit produces Quicken, the number-one personal finance software. It also owns both ChipSoft, the leading producer of tax software, and the National Payment Clearinghouse, a top provider of bank electronic payment services. Microsoft viewed Intuit as a major stepping stone for its plan to expand into electronic banking and commerce via its Microsoft Network online service, which is to be launched in August. Like so many of the companys new forays, the Intuit acquisition and Network prompted antitrust concerns. Networks most immediate threat is to providers of online computer services, such as America Online, Prodigy (owned by IBM and Sears, Roebuck ) and CompuServe (owned by H & R Block ). Microsoft intends to build the Network service into its long-awaited Windows 95 upgrade. When installing the new Windows on their PCs, customers will be presented with an option of subscribing to Network for a monthly fee, giving Microsoft an advantage in signing up new customers that other online providers lack. Jane Torbica, a spokesperson for Columbus, Ohio-based CompuServe, concedes that Microsofts operating system base will give the company an advantage in signing up new subscribers. Noting that online service is her companys core business, however, Torbica says CompuServe eventually will woo away many initial MS Network subscribers. Steve Case, President and Chief Executive Officer of Vienna, Virginia-based America Online, is less optimistic. "Microsoft, as the provider of the dominant operating system, should not be permitted to limit consumers equal access to other online services by giving preference to their own online service within the Windows 95 environment," Case said in a statement issued at the time Justice moved to block the Intuit acquisition. "We hope the Justice Department will take additional action to prevent Microsoft from exerting its dominant market power to control the emerging market of online services." "A lot of people would like to become players providing network services," adds Ed Black, president of the Computer Communications Industry Association (CCIA). "But if Microsoft offers it and bundles and packages it with other software, they can subsidize the cost and out-compete even better products that might come to the market. Investors are leery to invest in someone who will compete with Microsoft," he says. Once Microsoft gains a market advantage, it can raise prices and recoup money lost through its initial discounts. Other fertile areas targeted for Microsoft expansion include: o Reference and childrens multimedia consumer software; o "Microsoft At Work," interlinking PCs with phones and office equipment; and o Video and television software. With rapid convergence occurring between such once-isolated technology-based industries as computers, telephones and broadcast and cable television, and with technology beginning to catch up with "information superhighway" hype, a big concern among these industries is what kind of multimedia content they will be able to deliver to consumers once the infrastructure is in place. Competitors are racing to secure deals with partners who can provide such content. On May 16, Microsoft and NBC announced that they had formed a "strategic multimedia alliance" to provide audio-video online services, entertainment software and interactive television services. The new deal dovetails with the introduction of the online Microsoft Network slated to debut in August. Under the terms of the deal, NBC, which has been providing material to America Online and Prodigy, will supply Microsoft exclusively. Because of the many high-tech areas that the consent agreement would allow Microsoft to dominate, the lesser titans view it as a sweetheart deal for Microsoft. They are not alone. Unexpected Valentine On February 14, 1995, U.S. District Judge Stanley Sporkin issued an order rejecting the consent agreement. Sporkins order followed his examination of the settlement under the 1974 Tunney Act, which requires judicial review of antitrust consent agreements to assure that they serve the public interest. Sporkin electrified the computer industry by concluding that the agreement did not meet the public interest test established in prior case law. According to this test, the remedies proposed in an antitrust agreement must "effectively pry open to competition a market that has been closed by defendant illegal restraints." Sporkin, a former Securities and Exchange Commission enforcement director, said the Microsoft agreement failed the public-interest test because: o The Justice Department failed to demonstrate to the court that the agreement served the public interest; o The scope of the agreement is too narrow; o The agreement fails to address anticompetitive practices which Microsoft intends to continue; and o The agreements enforcement and compliance mechanisms are unsatisfactory. The immediate effect of Sporkins order was to energize the lesser titans, who saw Sporkin as a champion of their all-but-abandoned cause. The Valentines Day order also threw together Microsoft and Justice, the original adversaries in U.S. v. Microsoft, both of whom used similar arguments in appealing Sporkins order to the Federal Appeals Court for the D.C. Circuit. Leading the charge, U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno denounced Sporkins order, suggesting that Sporkin had exceeded his authority by attempting to review the governments entire Microsoft investigation. "If I file criminal charges against somebody and work out an appropriate negotiation and take it to court, the judge can say, I dont like the sentence you are recommending to me and if thats your deal I dont want it," Reno said in a February 16 press conference. "But [the judge] cant turn around and say I want you to charge this person with another crime that youve not charged him with because I dont think youve thoroughly investigated this case." Assistant U.S. Attorney General Anne Bingaman, head of the agencys antitrust division and wife of U.S. Senator Jeff Bingaman, D-New Mexico, had a bristling courtroom showdown with Sporkin over the extent of his powers. Responding to criticism that he had usurped Justices role as prosecutor, Sporkin wrote an unusual March 15 clarification order that says the court did not tell the government to revise its pleadings. "All the court did was hold that, based on the record before it, the court could not find the proposed settlement to be in the public interest," he wrote. "Other than being told the Government spent a great deal of time on a wide ranging inquiry and that the defendant is a tough bargainer, the court has not been provided with the essential information it needs to make its public interest finding," Sporkins February opinion says. Sporkin said the government remained free to drop the case, take it to trial, renegotiate the agreement or document to the court that the agreement served the public interest. In its appellate brief, Justice argues that upholding Sporkins broad interpretation of the Tunney Act and meeting his demands for publicly disclosing any deals the government might have made with Microsoft in their negotiations would mark the end of consent agreements in antitrust cases. Like Justice, Microsoft argues in its appellate brief that Sporkin exceeded the scope of his authority in issuing a ruling that is "an invitation to anarchy." Microsoft argues that Sporkin prejudged the company on the basis of extrajudicial information and urges the appeals courts to remand Sporkins order to a different district judge. Personal vs. corporate finance The Justice Department clearly did not welcome Judge Sporkins decision, which brought heightened scrutiny of Microsofts alleged anticompetitive tactics and fed criticisms that Justices complaint was too narrow. This pressure may have been a catalyst for Justices decision to try and block Microsofts Intuit acquisition, though Justice officials insist they are two unrelated cases with separate facts. "Public pressure on the Justice Department had a major impact on their broader approach" toward the Intuit acquisition, the Silicone Valley lawyer says. In its April 27, 1995 antitrust complaint seeking to block the Microsoft-Intuit merger, Justice notes that Intuit commanded 69 percent of the personal finance software market in 1994; when Microsofts share is factored in, the post-merger company would have 91 percent of the market. "The proposed acquisition would eliminate competition between Microsoft and Intuit, which has benefited consumers by leading to high quality innovative products at low prices," the complaint says. The complaint notes that Microsoft spent four years and incurred substantial losses to garner 22 percent of the personal finance market with its MS-Money software. Lesser titans would be unlikely to try to penetrate this market after the merger. In an effort to evade antitrust hurdles to the proposed merger, Microsoft offered to give away MS-Money to its competitor Novell. Justices complaint rejects this giveaway as a solution, noting that Novell would have little chance of competing with Intuits Quicken, MS-Moneys main competitor, since it has little experience in personal finance software and the Microsoft staff that developed MS-Money would not transfer to Novell with the software. An internal June 1994 Microsoft memo cited in Justices complaint notes that no intelligent competitor would pay good money for MS-Money knowing that the giant was acquiring Quicken. In contrast to Justices August 1994 complaint and proposed settlement with Microsoft, which kept a narrow focus on PC operating systems, the new complaint recognizes that the proposed acquisition "could reach well beyond todays" personal finance market. Current personal finance software users are likely to lead the charge into PC-based home banking, a vast emerging market in which consumers would perform such transactions as banking, investing, shopping and paying bills through their home computer. Microsoft had already cultivated relationships with third parties such as Visa International , Chase Manhattan Bank , First National Bank of Chicago and US Bancorporation to provide these home-banking services. Intuits strengths in banking and personal finance software would pose a major competitive hurdle to Microsofts plans. Justices complaint quotes internal memos from both companies that suggest that the proposed merger was designed to eliminate that competitive hurdle. Intuit "is the clear and dominant leader in PF [personal finance] software and the current installed base of users would likely prefer to stay with Quicken when they do electronic transactions," an August 1994 analysis of the proposed merger by a Microsoft executive says. "MS owns Windows and Marvel [a code name for Network] and therefore is in a much better position to access many millions of users in the future with PF service options. Since neither company has both of these strengths, the banks, credit card associations and others are in a stronger position to play us off against each other. As a combination, we would be dominant." Faced with what was likely to be a long, acrimonious and expensive court battle with Justice over their right to consummate such dominance, Microsoft and Intuit called off the deal May 20, 1995. Microsofts appeal Oral arguments before the appellate court on April 24 provided a glimpse into the clash Microsoft and Justice had with Judge Sporkin over the proposed operating system settlement. Sparring with Microsofts attorney, Richard Urowsky, Judge Laurence Silberman, a member of the three-judge appeals panel, showed some sensitivity to issues that have been raised by the lesser titans, demanding to know why the proposed settlement is limited to PC operating systems - ignoring other Microsoft software. After apparently failing to convince the judge that such products as Windows NT do not raise relevant antitrust issues because they "have a tiny share of their market," Urowsky retreated to the argument that the courts lack the authority to raise issues that Justices complaint did not broach. Statements made by each member of the three-judge panel suggest that they share this view. Judge James Buckley said that most of the issues raised by attorneys sympathetic to the lesser titans vanish "if we construe the Tunney Act as constraining [judicial antitrust settlement] review to charges made by the government." The appeals court is unlikely to entertain issues that go beyond Justices narrow complaint, the Silicon Valley intellectual property lawyer says. Such an approach by the appeals judges would bury many of Sporkins antitrust concerns about Microsoft - at least for now. Microsofts Enviable Market Shares Market Product Share PC Operating Systems DOS, Windows 82% PC Word Processing Word for Windows 64% Macintosh Word Processing MS Word 60% PC Spreadsheets Excel for Windows 61% Macintosh Spreadsheets Excel 89% Source: Fortune magazine From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 13:36:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06480 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:36:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06469 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:36:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11234; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:36:38 -0700 (MST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06014; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:36:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:36:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711092136.OAA06014@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Douglas Carmichael Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: *The* FreeBSD album In-Reply-To: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> References: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan Hubbard - drum programming, lead guitar .... > Seriously, are any of you FreeBSDers musicians? This would be a pretty neat > project. I hear Jordan plays a mean guitar, but you've got him up there already... Me and the Nomad's can do background vocals. *grin* Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 15:20:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13535 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:20:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13524 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27543; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 15:22:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com> To: Andreas Klemm cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:57:18 +0100." <19971109165718.52687@klemm.gtn.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 15:22:01 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 02:30:50AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> > Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 768 MB RAM, 139 >> > Gigabytes, 3000 users ftp and www machine at ftp.cdrom.com. You'll get >> > network support including: >> >> Actually, 1GB, 142 GB, 2750 users. ...and I just increased the limit to 3000 users yesterday. If I can optimize a few more things or get a faster CPU, it will eventually be going to 4000 users. >Is there an up to date hardware description somewhere ? ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.txt >And for marketing aspects: > >Couldn't we put a HTML page on the webserver, that actually >shows this famous server in detail ? > >It would be cool, if we could show some pictures from different >perspectives: > > one picture showing the whole rack mounted server > and some more pictures, which show interesting components > of the server. Perhaps a photo of the computer itself with > case opened ... ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg ...although the picture is out of date and the configuration has changed somewhat. >The photo that has been presented in the FreeBSD News was a good >start. But I'd wish we could provide some more views and of a bit >better quality. I think the machine isn't nearly stylish enough. :-) I think I also need to get a better camera (Polaroid really sucks). -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 16:00:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16253 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:00:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16243 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:00:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA28478; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:00:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id RAA18323; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:59:39 -0600 Message-ID: <19971109175939.02205@right.PCS> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:59:39 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: dg@root.com Cc: Andreas Klemm , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <19971109165718.52687@klemm.gtn.com> <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Nov 11, 1997 at 03:22:01PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >And for marketing aspects: > > > >Couldn't we put a HTML page on the webserver, that actually > >shows this famous server in detail ? How about a link that shows the "peak" stats (eg: # of bytes transferred, etc) that DG occasionallly posts here? That might be a good start. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 16:17:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17088 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:17:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17081 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA28348; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:18:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711100018.QAA28348@implode.root.com> To: Jonathan Lemon cc: Andreas Klemm , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Nov 1997 17:59:39 CST." <19971109175939.02205@right.PCS> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:18:38 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >And for marketing aspects: >> > >> >Couldn't we put a HTML page on the webserver, that actually >> >shows this famous server in detail ? > >How about a link that shows the "peak" stats (eg: # of bytes transferred, >etc) that DG occasionallly posts here? That might be a good start. Oh, BTW, we set a new record yesterday...247.2GB. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 16:25:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17664 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17658 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA06446; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:24:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga7-02.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.34) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006429; Sun Nov 9 18:24:14 1997 Message-ID: <3466541B.EEA7F364@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 19:23:55 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Douglas Carmichael CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: *The* FreeBSD album References: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Douglas Carmichael wrote: > > 1) Ports Tree Manager > 2) Smoke On The Water (FreeBSD version) > 3) Rock 'n Roll BSD > (any ideas?) > > Musicians: > Satoshi Asami - vocals > Poul-Henning Kamp - organ, keyboards, Minimoog > Greg "Grog" Lehey - woodwind > Jordan Hubbard - drum programming, lead guitar > Soren Schmidt - bass > > Seriously, are any of you FreeBSDers musicians? This would be a pretty neat > project. > How bout 'Barbara in the Sky with Diamonds?' :) Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com My family used to let me play guitar in the woods... until the animals started complaining. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 16:27:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17796 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:27:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17771; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00842; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:26:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711100026.QAA00842@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dg@root.com cc: Andreas Klemm , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat , multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 09 Nov 1997 15:22:01 PST." <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 16:26:13 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think the machine isn't nearly stylish enough. :-) I think I also need > to get a better camera (Polaroid really sucks). Perhaps one of the guys in the multimedia group equipped with a camcorder, bt848 card and gimp can help you out 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 18:15:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24092 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:15:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24084 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:15:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06846; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:15:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd006834; Sun Nov 9 19:15:04 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA10152; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:14:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711100214.TAA10152@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:14:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711091531.CAA00402@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Nov 10, 97 02:01:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That last arrow struck home (the others missed, though, if expensive > > is meant in terms of overhead instead of as a subset of proprietary, > > which would make your statement redundant. > > No, expensive is "Ask FirmWorks what it would cost to license their > implementation". Unless you feel like trying to code such a > monstrosity from the specification alone. Well, I already admitted that there should be a free reference implementation if they really want it as the standard. > > Again, you only need to use it once. The code for the OS is similar > > to what I've been pushing in terms of VM86 fallback drivers. You > > don't use it except for the boot, so usability isn't an issue. > > "Only use it once" multiplied by *how* many new users? You and Steve Jobs booting the Macintosh... except Steve is using OpenBoot, isn't he? ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 18:21:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24573 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24542 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:21:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id DAA24724; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:15:34 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA12109; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:57:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971110025703.06035@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:57:03 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: dg@root.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <19971109165718.52687@klemm.gtn.com> <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 03:22:01PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 03:22:01PM -0800, David Greenman wrote: > > ...and I just increased the limit to 3000 users yesterday. If I can > optimize a few more things or get a faster CPU, it will eventually be > going to 4000 users. Wow, coolness(tm) ! ;-) > >Is there an up to date hardware description somewhere ? > ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.txt Couldn't we bring this more into spotlight ? ;-) > ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg I know this one ;-) > I think the machine isn't nearly stylish enough. :-) I don't think so ... server simply look like this ;-) > I think I also need to get a better camera > (Polaroid really sucks). Too bad ;-) Or a normal camera and scanner ... -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 18:26:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24883 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:26:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24860 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:26:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id DAA24730; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:15:39 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA12118; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:57:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971110025732.26692@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:57:32 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: dg@root.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <19971109165718.52687@klemm.gtn.com> <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com> <19971109175939.02205@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19971109175939.02205@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 05:59:39PM -0600 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 05:59:39PM -0600, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > How about a link that shows the "peak" stats (eg: # of bytes transferred, > etc) that DG occasionallly posts here? That might be a good start. Yes yes yes ;-) definitively ;-) -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 18:27:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24976 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:27:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24966; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id DAA24703; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:15:23 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA12157; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:03:28 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971110030327.51529@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:03:27 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Amancio Hasty Cc: dg@root.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat , multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: instruments (was: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD") Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <199711092322.PAA27543@implode.root.com> <199711100026.QAA00842@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199711100026.QAA00842@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 04:26:13PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 04:26:13PM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > I think the machine isn't nearly stylish enough. :-) I think I also need > > to get a better camera (Polaroid really sucks). > > Perhaps one of the guys in the multimedia group equipped with a camcorder, > bt848 card and gimp can help you out 8) Cool. Well if I had time and money for such things ;-))) Totally "off topic" ... My new project is getting somehow one of these: http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/LesPaul/JimmyPage.html http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/LesPaul/ClassicPremiumPlus.html http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/LesPaul/CustomPlus.html http://www.gibson.com/products/gibson/LesPaul/Standard.html BTW, could someone ask in US, what the Jimmy Page model costs there ? Here it costs about DM 4900. That's really a lot ... and it will last some months until I can get the instrument .... Could I save some money by ordering through in USA ? -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 19:23:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27903 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27886 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA26420; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:21:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga15-18.ix.netcom.com(204.32.174.114) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026405; Sun Nov 9 21:21:29 1997 Message-ID: <34667DA7.F161BF58@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 22:21:11 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDT processors? References: <199711100207.UAA08730@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved to -chat) David Kelly wrote: > At about the top, the 68360 has a CPU-32+ core and (4) communications > ports similar to the 68302 but better. A mask pinout option turns one > port into an ethernet port. And then the QUICC-32... The '360 family has a support for SS7 and LAPx protocols too. Back on a FreeBSD-related topic... ;) It would be nice to have a cross-development package for these processors hosted on FreeBSD, since there are quite a few ISA/PCI boards available for PC systems. Anybody know of anything workable? Something we're missing for telecomm applications like IS41, etc. Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 20:13:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00627 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00622 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:13:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA29847; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:26:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:26:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711100426.VAA29847@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Charles Mott CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IDT processors? In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Mott writes: > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Atipa wrote: > > > P.S. Have any FreeBSD users tried out the new IDT chip? > > > > What/Who is IDT? I heard about some So. CA startup company using the > > SGS/Thompson Fab. Is that them? > > IDT (Integrated Device Technologies) makes alot of odds and ends chips. I > used to use them for fast static RAM chips in custom board designs. I > wouldn't count these guys out. They might be pretty good. Actually, they've been around for quite some time. This have a pretty good line of embedded MIPS risc chips, and I think they did one or two of the early SPARC chips. SPARC-1 timeframe, if I remember right. Might be doesn't apply here, but marketing came go along way in "overcoming" competent engineering; look at Digital. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 20:37:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01918 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (dcarmich.pr.mcs.net [204.95.63.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01912; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcarmich@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by dcarmich.pr.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00952; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:41:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dcarmich) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199711100341.VAA00952@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> Subject: Final draft of "Ports Tree Manager" and live album intro To: lsmith@lr.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, asami@freebsd.org, asami@cs.berkeley.edu Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:41:43 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Vocal part: Satoshi: "Can I have some more volume on the monitors for vocal?" (sound engineer pushes up fader) Satoshi: "Testing, testing, 1, 2, 3....." Poul: "Hey, my Hammond seems not to be working." Jordan: "Did you commit the patch to the drawbar algorithms? (laughing)" Poul: "I should have done that before the show." Satoshi: "Alright, Ports Tree Manager, 1, 2, 3, 4." (intro w/organ riff) (bass + drum part) Verse 1: It's 660 lines, give or take a few, I'll be porting more in a day or two, I can make it longer if you like the ports, I've been changing it 'round and I want to be a Ports tree manager, Ports tree manageeeeeeeer.. (drums) Verse 2: If you really like it you can have the distfiles, It could fill up your hard drive overnight, If you must complain you can send-pr here, But I need a break and I want to be a ports tree manager, Ports tree manager, Ports tree manaaaaaaaageeeeer.. (organ riff) Verse 3: My, oh my, I can't be late, And I sure do think all these ports are great, Get those ports into the tree But I just can't see and I want to be a ports tree manager, Ports tree manaaaaaaaageeeeer.. (drums) Verse 4: It's now 770 lines, give or take a few, I'll be porting much more in a day or two, I can make it longer if you like the ports, I've been changing it 'round and I want to be a Ports tree manager, Ports tree manageeeeeeeer.. (organ riff) Verse 5: Ports tree manager.... (organ riff) Ports tree manager.... (organ riff) Ports tree manager.... (fade out while verse 4 is going) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 21:17:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03581 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03571 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01091; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:42:00 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711100512.PAA01091@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Ruslan Shevchenko cc: Douglas Carmichael , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:33:40 -0000." <3466B8D3.3FC2B89C@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:42:00 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Douglas Carmichael wrote: > > > Could FreeBSD be a viable platform to run business applications (e.g. Oracle > > or other SQL servers, SAP R/3, BAAN, etc.)? > > Somebody say, that he run Oracle under SCO emulator. Many people, and Oracle are showing considerable interest in the BSD world. > but in general, i think, answer is no: > --- no support of vendors of Business Application. > (so, it bad server for business applications) Hah. How much "support" does the average end user get from vendors? Most vendors sell through VARs, and it's the VARs that provide the support. There are a number of these onboard with FreeBSD already, as well as vendors supporting FreeBSD directly. > --- FreeBSD can't run pure Java APPS > (so, it'a bad client) You raised this before, and were shot down. I'll let others shoot you down again. > I reccomended for Server Sun-Solaris/Alpha-OSF/RS-AIX > or SCO, if you have only PC. And I seriously recommend that you pick a platform based on your application, price and performance needs. On that basis, FreeBSD is quite viable in many situations. > for clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux. I'd say you must be joking, but based on the accuracy of the rest of your response, this is perfectly in character. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 21:47:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05005 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:47:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04992; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:47:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA14077; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:41:53 GMT Message-ID: <3466C8CF.DB597F9D@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:41:51 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? References: <199711092354.RAA02551@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> <3466B8D3.3FC2B89C@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> <3466987D.4C14CA3E@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jerry Hicks wrote: > Ruslan Shevchenko wrote: > > ? --- FreeBSD can't run pure Java APPS > ? (so, it'a bad client) > > This simply is not true. Although many do consider Java to be a bad > (Hmm --- I must mail you "100% Java compability application", or propose you to run appletviewer or jdb ? ) > *language*. > May be Java is a bad language. (Windows, for example --- bad OS, but I spend most of my time sitting on WindowsNT, becouse Windows have support from commercical vendors, becouse exists rapid development tools, and users sitting on Windows, not becouse it fools, but becouse they wont *to use applications*.) Java iniciative allows all U*IXEX to run application. May be it is bad applications, but they exists. If seriosly, I can spend some my time to java-on-FreeBSD work, if anybody interested, write to me. > FreeBSD has been *much* better for us in commercial settings that Linux > or SCO. > Termins. What mean "commercial settings" In my opinion, FreeBSD is good for: 1. ISP 2. Home use. > Jerry Hicks > jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com P.S. (let's move this topic for freebsd-chat) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 21:51:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05286 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:51:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05281 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:51:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA14086; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:45:08 GMT Message-ID: <3466C992.642AFA1A@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:45:06 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? References: <199711100512.PAA01091@word.smith.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith wrote: > ? Douglas Carmichael wrote: > ? > ? ? Could FreeBSD be a viable platform to run business applications (e.g. Oracle > ? ? or other SQL servers, SAP R/3, BAAN, etc.)? > ? > ? Somebody say, that he run Oracle under SCO emulator. > > Many people, and Oracle are showing considerable interest in the BSD > world. > > ? but in general, i think, answer is no: > ? --- no support of vendors of Business Application. > ? (so, it bad server for business applications) > > Hah. How much "support" does the average end user get from vendors? > Most vendors sell through VARs, and it's the VARs that provide the support. > There are a number of these onboard with FreeBSD already, as well as > vendors supporting FreeBSD directly. > Find me yet one in Kiev. > ? --- FreeBSD can't run pure Java APPS > ? (so, it'a bad client) > > You raised this before, and were shot down. I'll let others shoot you > down again. > ??? (Sorry, I can't uderstood you .) > ? I reccomended for Server Sun-Solaris/Alpha-OSF/RS-AIX > ? or SCO, if you have only PC. > > And I seriously recommend that you pick a platform based on your > application, price and performance needs. On that basis, FreeBSD is > quite viable in many situations. > yes, of course. > ? for clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux. > > I'd say you must be joking, but based on the accuracy of the rest of > your response, this is perfectly in character. > yes, it was joke. seriosly better Mac or NT workstation ;) > mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 22:08:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06207 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06198 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:08:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00544; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:05:29 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711100605.WAA00544@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Mike Smith cc: Ruslan Shevchenko , Douglas Carmichael , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:42:00 +1030." <199711100512.PAA01091@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 22:05:28 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > for clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux. > > I'd say you must be joking, but based on the accuracy of the rest of > your response, this is perfectly in character. > His posting was just flame bait . Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 22:30:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07160 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:30:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07155 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20222; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:24:50 GMT Message-ID: <3466D2DF.D1703721@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:24:48 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? References: <199711100605.WAA00544@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > ? ? for clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux. > ? > ? I'd say you must be joking, but based on the accuracy of the rest of > ? your response, this is perfectly in character. > ? > > His posting was just flame bait . > No, it is not flame. It is real problem. > Cheers, > Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 22:38:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07465 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:38:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07458 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:38:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00667; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:37:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711100637.WAA00667@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Ruslan Shevchenko cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:24:48 GMT." <3466D2DF.D1703721@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 22:37:52 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > ? ? for clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux. > > ? > > ? I'd say you must be joking, but based on the accuracy of the rest of > > ? your response, this is perfectly in character. > > ? > > > > His posting was just flame bait . > > > > No, it is not flame. It is real problem. > > Care to elaborate? Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 22:55:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08325 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08318 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:55:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA13258; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:53:11 -0800 (PST) To: Ruslan Shevchenko cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:45:06 GMT." <3466C992.642AFA1A@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 22:53:11 -0800 Message-ID: <13255.879144791@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is all flame bait. End this thread. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 9 23:48:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11147 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:48:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from schenectady.netmonger.net (schenectady.netmonger.net [209.54.21.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11140 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:48:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from postmaster@schenectady.netmonger.net) Received: (from news@localhost) by schenectady.netmonger.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23672 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:22:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from GATEWAY by schenectady.netmonger.net with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 10 Nov 1997 07:22:44 GMT From: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Message-ID: <646co4$n3l$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Organization: NetMonger Communications Subject: IDE performance - benchmark numbers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I got around to reading the documentation, so now I know about the wd flags. I thought I'd try a little experiment. First, here's what I tested this on: (built from sources supped on Nov 5) Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Nov 9 21:33:37 EST 1997 chris@kaboom.masto.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/KABOOM CPU: Pentium (132.96-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf real memory = 33554432 (32768K bytes) avail memory = 30183424 (29476K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x02 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x02 on pci0.7.0 ide_pci0: rev 0x02 on pci0.7.1 bktr0: rev 0x11 int a irq 11 on pci0.9.0 Hauppauge WinCast/TV, Philips NTSC tuner, dbx stereo. vga0: rev 0x00 int a irq 10 on pci0.11.0 Probing for PnP devices: CSN 1 Vendor ID: CTL0044 [0x44008c0e] Serial 0x001274d8 CSN 2 Vendor ID: TCM5094 [0x94506d50] Serial 0x24d36110 Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard psm0: device ID 0 fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 flags 0xa0ffa0ff on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): , 32-bit, multi-block-16 wd0: 2442MB (5001696 sectors), 4962 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc0: unit 1 (wd1): , 32-bit, multi-block-16 wd1: 3020MB (6185088 sectors), 6136 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc1 at 0x170-0x177 irq 15 flags 0xa0ffa0ff on isa wdc1: unit 0 (atapi): , removable, intr, dma, iordis wcd0: 1033Kb/sec, 256Kb cache, audio play, 255 volume levels, ejectable tray wcd0: no disc inside, unlocked 16 3C5x9 board(s) on ISA found at 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 0x200 ep0 not found at 0x300 npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface sb0 at 0x220 irq 5 drq 1 on isa snd0: sbxvi0 at ? drq 5 on isa snd0: sbmidi0 not found at 0x330 awe0 at 0x620 on isa AWE32 not found AWE32: not detected I know IOZONE isn't a great measure of performance, but it was the first to download, so here are the numbers I got from it. This is all with a 64MB test file, since it says to make it at least twice the available RAM. There was a comment made here that mode 4 isn't a good idea, so I tried it with mode 2 for comparison. (I didn't see any messages about DMA, so I'm wondering if my controller actually supports it). Anyway: MODE BLOCK SEC-WRITE SEC-READ MB/S-W MB/S-R 2 512 35.7 31.3 1.8 2.1 2 4096 29.6 29.5 2.3 2.3 2 10240 29.2 27.9 2.3 2.4 4 512 15.5 142.6 4.3 0.5 4 4096 12.2 141.8 5.5 0.5 4 10240 12.3 142.0 5.5 0.5 Obviously, there's something incredibly wrong with the read performance. IMHO, all of the numbers are pretty lousy. Just for comparison, I set the flags back to 0x0 and got these results: MODE BLOCK SEC-WRITE SEC-READ MB/S-W MB/S-R 4 512 21.6 17.7 3.1 3.8 4 4096 15.7 15.6 4.3 4.3 4 10240 15.2 16.0 4.4 4.2 Conclusion: I don't know. There doesn't seem to be an obvious combination that gives the best results all around. I still suspect that an Adaptec 2940UW and a nice SCSI drive will be a lot better. I don't have an apples-to-apples comparison, though.. the closest is a P166 with the same amount of RAM (32MB) and an Adaptec 2940UW: Writing the 64 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...8.453125 seconds Reading the file...7.070312 seconds IOZONE performance measurements: 7938941 bytes/second for writing the file 9491640 bytes/second for reading the file Anyway, now there are some numbers to argue over. -- = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 01:11:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA15626 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA15611 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:11:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20546; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:06:30 GMT Message-ID: <3466F8C4.1A3F3A1A@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:06:29 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? References: <199711100637.WAA00667@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > ? Amancio Hasty wrote: > ? > ? ? ? ? for clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux. > ? ? ? > ? ? ? I'd say you must be joking, but based on the accuracy of the rest of > ? ? ? your response, this is perfectly in character. > ? ? ? > ? ? > ? ? His posting was just flame bait . > ? ? > ? > ? No, it is not flame. It is real problem. > ? > ? > > Care to elaborate? > I can't uderstood you. The question was: is the FreeBSD commerce-usable system. I explore my opinion, without flames. Then I receive un-argumentable flame. About Linux --- it have the same problems, expect jdk support a little better. ( I, prefer FreeBSD ;) ) My answer was not aggressive. But I received reaction in style : "Only, that you must say, is that the FreeBSD is the best OS in the world, all other senetences are flame" I think that such point of view it is not right. So, let's be more tolerant. > Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 01:26:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA16569 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16564 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14008; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:26:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711100926.BAA14008@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Ruslan Shevchenko cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:06:29 GMT." <3466F8C4.1A3F3A1A@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:26:24 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nope, just back up your statement . I am not saying that FreeBSD is the best OS in the world. BTW: this is not a psychology test. I refuse to fall into the argument of justifying my inquisition on your unqualified and unquantified assertions. If you wish to open a thesis statement then at least you have to further elaborate on the ways that FreeBSD can be improved . "For clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux " warrants an explanation or justification because is too vague for an intelligent discussion in this forum . Amancio > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > ? Amancio Hasty wrote: > > ? > > ? ? ? ? for clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux. > > ? ? ? > > ? ? ? I'd say you must be joking, but based on the accuracy of the rest of > > ? ? ? your response, this is perfectly in character. > > ? ? ? > > ? ? > > ? ? His posting was just flame bait . > > ? ? > > ? > > ? No, it is not flame. It is real problem. > > ? > > ? > > > > Care to elaborate? > > > > I can't uderstood you. The question was: is the FreeBSD commerce-usable > system. > I explore my opinion, without flames. > Then I receive un-argumentable flame. > > About Linux --- it have the same problems, expect jdk support a little > better. ( I, prefer FreeBSD ;) ) > > My answer was not aggressive. > But I received reaction in style : > "Only, that you must say, is that the FreeBSD is the best OS in the > world, all other senetences are flame" > > I think that such point of view it is not right. > > So, let's be more tolerant. > > > > Amancio > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 02:25:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA20723 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:25:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20703 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:25:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA14442; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:23:59 -0800 (PST) To: Ruslan Shevchenko cc: Amancio Hasty , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:06:29 GMT." <3466F8C4.1A3F3A1A@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:23:59 -0800 Message-ID: <14438.879157439@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I can't uderstood you. The question was: is the FreeBSD commerce-usable > system. > I explore my opinion, without flames. > Then I receive un-argumentable flame. No, you made a number of value judgements which were poorly supported and, as others have already pointed out, there are JDK's which are every bit as complete as those for Linux and you can, in fact, simply run the Linux JDK under FreeBSD if that's what you really want (and I know of several people who do this). There's also a version of Netscape for FreeBSD and a number of other commercial utilities available from the various vendors listed on our vendor page. Perhaps it's merely your poor command of english at fault (and I really have great difficulty even understanding half of what you say) but it didn't look like you were doing anything more than slamming FreeBSD - I certainly didn't see any intelligent opinions being expressed in your first posting. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 03:09:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA23590 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:09:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA23584 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:09:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27094 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:09:47 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA17512; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:09:46 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:09:46 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711101109.MAA17512@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund X-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: j@uriah.heep.sax.de's message of Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:16:15 +0100 Subject: Re: hardware References: <199711070451.VAA24465@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199711070513.AAA00623@dyson.iquest.net> <19971108001615.TR41338@uriah.heep.sax.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've got too many surprises with too many different IDE drives to ever > touch it again. I'm used to hot-plug SCSI devices all over the place > (first plug them onto the bus, then set the power plug) I'm doing this with IDE drives. The only problem I've had so far has been with a power-lug on another drive that very much minded even a minor touch, but that isn't an IDE problem. Not that I run IDE on anything beyond low-end boxes - the hot-swapping is to build those low-end boxes :-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 03:41:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA25483 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:41:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freya.circle.net (freya.circle.net [209.95.95.2] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA25442; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:41:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from team-freebsd@circle.net) Received: by FREYA with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:42:23 -0500 Message-ID: <8188AD2EBC3CD111B7A30060082F32A401C5C7@FREYA> From: Team FreeBSD RC5-64 Effort To: "'freebsd-announce@freebsd.org'" , "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" , "'freebsd-questions@freebsd.org'" , "'freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org'" Subject: Team FreeBSD RC5-64 Secret Key Challenge Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:42:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Calling all FreeBSD supporters everywhere! Team FreeBSD is a distributed effort by FreeBSD supporters to crack the RC5-64 encryption (RSA Secret Key Challenge). This effort is coordinated by distributed.net using their RC5-64 "Bovine" client programs. These programs use ONLY idle time on your machine, affecting production use not at all. There are versions of the client available for FreeBSD as well as most other platforms. To find out more about Team FreeBSD, visit: http://www.circle.net/team-freebsd To find out more about the RC5-64 effort, visit: http://www.distributed.net To see the latest rankings of Team FreeBSD, visit: http://rc5stats.distributed.net/tmsummary.idc?TM=988 To flame me for crossposting this announcement, mail to: team-freebsd@circle.net - - - - - - If Team FreeBSD cracks the code, we plan on donating prize winnings to the FreeBSD development effort. So your CPU idle time could mean real cash $$ for FreeBSD. As of this posting, Team FreeBSD is now ranked #196 out of thousands and climbing fast! From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 03:59:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA26561 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA26555 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA23897 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:54:36 GMT Message-ID: <3467202A.3F31B959@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:54:35 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? References: <14438.879157439@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > ? I can't uderstood you. The question was: is the FreeBSD commerce-usable > ? system. > ? I explore my opinion, without flames. > ? Then I receive un-argumentable flame. > > No, you made a number of value judgements which were poorly supported > and, as others have already pointed out, there are JDK's which are > every bit as complete as those for Linux and you can, in fact, simply > as on Linux, as on FreeBSD, jdk run quite poor. > run the Linux JDK under FreeBSD if that's what you really want (and I > know of several people who do this). There's also a version of > Netscape for FreeBSD and a number of other commercial utilities > available from the various vendors listed on our vendor page. > Perhaps it's merely your poor command of english at fault (and I > really have great difficulty even understanding half of what you say) > but it didn't look like you were doing anything more than slamming > FreeBSD - I certainly didn't see any intelligent opinions being > expressed in your first posting. > > Jordan may be. My own problem with FreeBSD (and motivation of my negative answer on question about use FreeBSD as in enterprise commerce ( -- sorry, for poor English) ) is next: 1. I now work in one enterprise project. 2. As my favorite OS is FreeBSD, I set it for gateway, proxy, and in near future -- web server. 3. I want to work on FreeBSD, but We have DB on Oracle. We need to develop applications on this DB, to build enterprise-whide system. At first, I got Oracle drivers for thin Java client, but after looking on kaffe and jdk this idea was dropped. (Working of such applications in browser, for many reasons, is the wery bad solution). Now I have next choice: 1. Got a client Oracle from SCO, and run all under SCO emulator. (tk/perl, c++ ) 2. Write RPC stubs to oracle OCI. it is the best solution, but it require time, which we do not have. 3. Drop FreeBSD ans switch to SCO or PC-solaris. May be anybody tell me, how to be ? Than I will tell all, that FreeBSD good in enterprise use. Now we develop software for Win, and it's really aid. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 04:03:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA26734 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from jupiter.leirianet.pt (jupiter.leirianet.pt [195.23.69.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26721 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:03:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jm@pluriproj.pt) Received: from antares.pluriproj.pt (antares.pluriproj.pt [195.23.69.137]) by jupiter.leirianet.pt (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA14087 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:02:38 GMT From: jm@pluriproj.pt (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Monteiro?=) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Safe Finger Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:02:52 GMT X-PGP-Key-Fingerprint: 4289 7864 7C6F 06C6 BB1E 299E 8FFA DC61 Organization: Leiri@net Reply-To: Jose Monteiro Message-ID: <3469f775.9453032@mail.leirianet.pt> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA26722 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi good bsd people, Can someone tell me where can I find a safe finger implementation (one that does not reveal who's on the system and so on) for freebsd? Thanks in advance, Jose Monteiro From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 04:46:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA28998 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:46:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from toth.ferginc.com (toth.ferginc.com [205.139.23.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA28987 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 04:46:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from branson@toth.ferginc.com) Received: (from branson@localhost) by toth.ferginc.com (You_Can/Keep_Guessing) id HAA06066; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:44:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971110074429.17040@toth.hq.ferg.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:44:29 -0500 From: Branson Matheson To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Cc: Douglas Carmichael , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *The* FreeBSD album Reply-To: Branson.Matheson@FergInc.com References: <199711091735.LAA03209@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> <3466541B.EEA7F364@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <3466541B.EEA7F364@ix.netcom.com>; from Jerry Hicks on Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 07:23:55PM -0500 Organization: Ferguson Enterprises, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Nov 09, 1997 at 07:23:55PM -0500, Jerry Hicks wrote: > > Musicians: > > Satoshi Asami - vocals > > Poul-Henning Kamp - organ, keyboards, Minimoog > > Greg "Grog" Lehey - woodwind > > Jordan Hubbard - drum programming, lead guitar > > Soren Schmidt - bass > > > > Seriously, are any of you FreeBSDers musicians? This would be a pretty neat > > project. I am a bass and keyboard man. but i am an east coastie ;-) - branson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Branson Matheson " If you are falling off of a mountain, Unix System Administrator You may as well try to fly." Ferguson Enterprises, Inc. - Delenn, Mimbari Ambassador ( $statements = ) !~ /Corporate Opinion/; From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 06:58:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA04573 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:58:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA04568 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 06:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17597; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:58:06 -0700 (MST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA09448; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:58:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:58:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711101458.HAA09448@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Ruslan Shevchenko Cc: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-Reply-To: <3466C8CF.DB597F9D@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> References: <199711092354.RAA02551@dcarmich.pr.mcs.net> <3466B8D3.3FC2B89C@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> <3466987D.4C14CA3E@ix.netcom.com> <3466C8CF.DB597F9D@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Moved *totally* off hackers ] > May be Java is a bad language. (Windows, for example --- bad OS, but I > spend most of my time > sitting on WindowsNT, becouse Windows have support > from commercical vendors, becouse exists rapid development > tools, and users sitting on Windows, not becouse it fools, ???? In any case, almost all of my development is done on Unix, using the standard JDK. It's a couple hundred thousands lines of Java, using CORBA and it works fine under FreeBSD 'mostly'. There are some bugs in the 1.1 K.White port, but otherwise it works well. At least as well or better than the 'commercial development tools', which for the most part are a crock for x-platform development. (Symantec's CAFE supported x-platform development before, but it's no longer a supported product, and it's replacement is useless.) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 08:17:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09004 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:17:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08988 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA09521; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:14:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009519; Mon, 10 Nov 97 01:14:49 -0800 Message-ID: <346732EE.7855@PartsNow.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:14:38 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: Terry Lambert , wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, mini@d198-232.uoregon.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: x86 gods; advice? Suggestions? References: <199711091531.CAA00402@word.smith.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > What *I* care about is that OpenBoot is big, it is expensive and > > > proprietary, > > Whazzat? Isn't OpenBoot the FORTH-based device driver sanitizer? FORTH is tiny. However, my reading of the trades is that it never took off, so I doubt there will be many more cards with support. 's a shame, because it was originally a great idea. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 08:25:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09432 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:25:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09427 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:25:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA09593; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:22:53 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009579; Mon, 10 Nov 97 01:22:25 -0800 Message-ID: <346734B5.277D@PartsNow.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:22:13 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" CC: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <199711091949.OAA26586@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Instead of a picture, how about an HTML visual of the Kernel Task Manager in action, or even a live 'top' screen? That would be more appropriate for software. How about a sequence of 'top', 'du', maybe 'tail -n 20 -f /var/log/ftp.log'...? -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 08:48:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10626 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:48:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10619 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA09763; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:46:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009761; Mon, 10 Nov 97 01:46:09 -0800 Message-ID: <34673A45.E06@PartsNow.com> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:45:57 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Ruslan Shevchenko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? References: <199711100637.WAA00667@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I sympathize with Ruslan's problem. I was in Kharkov, Ukraine last summer and couldn't find much support for anything, let alone high powered computing. If they can't keep the walls standing, they can't keep the computers dry ;) I've since found a few relay servers, but most everybody's still squirting UUCP. However, I would suggest, Ruslan, that FreeBSD and PostgreSQL source code availability and these wonderful mailing lists will give you much better developmental support than you will ever get from Oracle or Sybase or SCO or M$. I know that between these lists and the codebase I can get better answers in less time than it takes to get through the telephone hold time on a support line, and for you, e-mailing lists are thes ONLY viable support mechanism. My recommendation: stick with people who will support you from personal pride and altruistic professionalism, of which the FreeBSD crew is a prime example. Of course, you might also get a few flames along the way... :))) they're fun! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 09:40:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14072 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.barcode.co.il (gatekeeper.barcode.co.il [192.116.93.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14065 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:40:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@barcode.co.il) Received: (from nadav@localhost) by gatekeeper.barcode.co.il (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA04131; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:40:18 +0200 (IST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:40:18 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron To: Thomas.Traylor@mci.com cc: sporkl@dti.net, Michael Richards <026809r@dragon.acadiau.ca>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crashing FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Thomas S. Traylor wrote: > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, sporkl wrote: > > > Well, there are other ways too. > > > > 1. Toggle power really fast > > 2. write a "forkbomb": > > #include > > > > main() { > > > > for(;;) {fork();} > > } > > > > This looks like something a student did to us on a VMS system. For > those with VMS systems around try: > > $! bomb.com > $! > $ spawm/nowait bomb.com > $ submit bomb.com > $ @bomb.com moved to -chat Just like on FreeBSD, VMS can limit the numebr of processes a user can have (and can even separatly limit detached, batch and interactive processes). All you have to do is set up your sysuaf properly... On the other hand, I remember crashing a VAX/VMS 5.2 ( :-) ) by calling sys$getjpi with a process name that contained colons (this was later fixed in some DEC patch, can't recall which). > > Tom > Nadav From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 09:49:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14689 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:49:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14682 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27771; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:48:37 GMT Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:48:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: Amancio Hasty cc: Ruslan Shevchenko , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-Reply-To: <199711100926.BAA14008@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Nope, just back up your statement . I am not saying that FreeBSD is > the best OS in the world. BTW: this is not a psychology test. I refuse > to fall into the argument of justifying my inquisition on your > unqualified and unquantified assertions. If you wish to open > a thesis statement then at least you have to further elaborate > on the ways that FreeBSD can be improved . > > "For clients -- if you love Unix -- then Linux " > > warrants an explanation or justification because is > too vague for an intelligent discussion in this forum . Either I'm dealing with idiot clients who just want it sorted and one big red button to bang their heads off. OR: I'm in marketing and I didn't know that computers did anything other than provide big red buttons to bang my head off, so I'd sell that. After all it's probably the clients money and what they really want is an O2, fresh from the SGI factory, with the hoover attachment as well. (Well, they look like vacuum cleaners to me, but clients like them!) Seriously though, I can't see in what context I'd be giving Linux, which is pretty renowned for being non-standard to a 'client who so far has been described as loving UNIX' and _wants_ Unix, not a UNIX-like OS. Anyway who said -chat needs to be intelligent conversation! Steve -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 09:53:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15099 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:53:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from titan.mcit.com (titan.mcit.com [166.37.52.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15083 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:53:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ttraylor@titan.mcit.com) Received: from localhost by titan.mcit.com (5.65v4.0/1.1.10.5/03Nov97-0335PM) id AA08328; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:48:39 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:48:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Thomas S. Traylor" Reply-To: Thomas.Traylor@mci.com To: Nadav Eiron Cc: Thomas.Traylor@mci.com, sporkl@dti.net, Michael Richards <026809r@dragon.acadiau.ca>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crashing FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Nadav Eiron wrote: > > > On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Thomas S. Traylor wrote: > > > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, sporkl wrote: > > > > > Well, there are other ways too. > > > > > > 1. Toggle power really fast > > > 2. write a "forkbomb": > > > #include > > > > > > main() { > > > > > > for(;;) {fork();} > > > } > > > > > > > This looks like something a student did to us on a VMS system. For > > those with VMS systems around try: > > > > $! bomb.com > > $! > > $ spawm/nowait bomb.com > > $ submit bomb.com > > $ @bomb.com > > moved to -chat Good idea.... > > Just like on FreeBSD, VMS can limit the numebr of processes a user can > have (and can even separatly limit detached, batch and interactive > processes). All you have to do is set up your sysuaf properly... This didn't cause the system to crash (it slowed it down a bit). It did cause us to reboot though. A reboot was the only real way to clean it up. There were to many process to kill off. Everytime you killed off a process, it allowed another process for that user to startup. Tom > > On the other hand, I remember crashing a VAX/VMS 5.2 ( :-) ) by calling > sys$getjpi with a process name that contained colons (this was later > fixed in some DEC patch, can't recall which). > > > > > Tom > > > Nadav > -- Thomas Traylor Thomas.Traylor@mci.com ttraylor@titan.mcit.com (719) 535-1269 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 10:23:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17250 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from electric.tbe.net (electric.tbe.net [208.208.122.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17242 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:23:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gary@tbe.net) Received: (qmail 917 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1997 18:30:58 -0000 Received: from flash.tbe.net (gary@208.208.122.15) by electric.tbe.net with SMTP; 10 Nov 1997 18:30:58 -0000 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Gary D. Margiotta" To: Branson Matheson cc: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, Douglas Carmichael , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *The* FreeBSD album In-Reply-To: <19971110074429.17040@toth.hq.ferg.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Musicians: > > > Satoshi Asami - vocals > > > Poul-Henning Kamp - organ, keyboards, Minimoog > > > Greg "Grog" Lehey - woodwind > > > Jordan Hubbard - drum programming, lead guitar > > > Soren Schmidt - bass > > > > > > Seriously, are any of you FreeBSDers musicians? This would be a pretty neat > > > project. > > I am a bass and keyboard man. but i am an east coastie ;-) > > - branson Well, there's nothing wrong with having two, on opposite coasts ;). I'm from northern Jersey, and used to play guitar a bit. Haven't played in a long time, but it's like riding a bike, right? ;) (also, my girlfriend used to play drums, and another friend is pretty decent with a keyboard/guitar) ______________________________________________________________ -Gary Margiotta Voice: (973) 835-9696 TBE Internet Services Fax: (973) 256-4605 http://www.tbe.net E-Mail: gary@tbe.net From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 10:49:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19377 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:49:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from foo.bar.com (F209-092.net.wisc.edu [144.92.209.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19370 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@foo.bar.com) Received: from localhost (jesse@localhost) by foo.bar.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00285 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:46:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:46:23 -0600 (CST) From: "jtkipp@students.wisc.edu" Reply-To: zaphod@imailbox.com To: Freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Server Hardware? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The last couple of days several threads have been going around the lists about Crashing FreeBSD, IDE vs. SCSI, and general performance of servers using FreeBSD, so the obvious aggragate question is what hardware is adaquate for various tasks, such as: DNS lookup News server Web server that gets 5,000 hits 50,000? 200,000? 1 million? 2 million or more? FTP server for 10 users? 50? 200? 500? 1000? 2000? 5000 or more? E-mail server for 10s or 100s of accounts? 1000s? tens of thousands? millions? X-Server for 2, 5, 15 or ?? users Terminal server for 5, 10, 50, 100, ?? users Don't tax your mind unless you want to. Jesse ------------ "Of course, the irony of pretty clothes is it makes people want to take them off. This is why I wear nothing but the ugliest clothing I can find" Jesse Kipp, zaphod@imailbox.com, jtkipp@students.wisc.edu Disclaimer: This message is based on my infinitesimal understanding of a really really vast universe: Use with caution. ------------ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 11:10:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21156 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from teel.info-noire.com (slpp-11.interlinx.qc.ca [207.134.144.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21145 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@teel.info-noire.com) Received: from localhost (alex@localhost) by teel.info-noire.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03215; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Boisvert Reply-To: Alex Boisvert To: Nate Williams cc: Ruslan Shevchenko , wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-Reply-To: <199711101458.HAA09448@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > May be Java is a bad language. (Windows, for example --- bad OS, but I > > spend most of my time > > sitting on WindowsNT, becouse Windows have support > > from commercical vendors, becouse exists rapid development > > tools, and users sitting on Windows, not becouse it fools, > > ???? In any case, almost all of my development is done on Unix, using > the standard JDK. It's a couple hundred thousands lines of Java, using > CORBA and it works fine under FreeBSD 'mostly'. There are some bugs in > the 1.1 K.White port, but otherwise it works well. At least as well or > better than the 'commercial development tools', which for the most part > are a crock for x-platform development. I agree with you that the JDK 1.1 (kwhite) on FreeBSD is a fine working tool. I use it for _commercial_ product development and must say that I'm more productive under FreeBSD than Windows. (Altough we mostly _deploy_ on Windows :-( We chose BISS-AWT toolkit as our graphical front-end: it's *fast* and really cross-platform. It easily beats Sun's AWT or the other BWT product (I don't recall the exact compagny name). Also, my personal productivity has increased about 100% compared to C/C++ development. Regards, Alex. --- FreeBSD: Decouvrez la puissance de votre PC! www.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 11:13:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21377 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21372 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:13:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19195; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:06:14 -0700 (MST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10248; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:06:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:06:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711101906.MAA10248@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Alex Boisvert Cc: Nate Williams , Ruslan Shevchenko , wghhicks@ix.netcom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could FreeBSD be a viable platform for large SQL/SAP/etc enterprise applications? In-Reply-To: References: <199711101458.HAA09448@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex Boisvert writes: > > > May be Java is a bad language. (Windows, for example --- bad OS, but I > > > spend most of my time > > > sitting on WindowsNT, becouse Windows have support > > > from commercical vendors, becouse exists rapid development > > > tools, and users sitting on Windows, not becouse it fools, > > > > ???? In any case, almost all of my development is done on Unix, using > > the standard JDK. It's a couple hundred thousands lines of Java, using > > CORBA and it works fine under FreeBSD 'mostly'. There are some bugs in > > the 1.1 K.White port, but otherwise it works well. At least as well or > > better than the 'commercial development tools', which for the most part > > are a crock for x-platform development. > > I agree with you that the JDK 1.1 (kwhite) on FreeBSD is a fine working > tool. I use it for _commercial_ product development and must say that I'm > more productive under FreeBSD than Windows. (Altough we mostly _deploy_ > on Windows :-( Sorry, I guess I wasn't obvious enough. The product I'm speaking above is a commercial product which puts food on the table. My entire livlihood is contained in this Java product, so in effect I'm using FreeBSD & Java to make a living. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 11:38:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22993 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:38:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from terror.hungry.com (fn@terror.hungry.com [169.131.1.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22988 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:38:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fn@LISP-READER.Hungry.COM) Received: (from fn@localhost) by terror.hungry.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11943; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:38:40 -0800 (PST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crashing FreeBSD References: From: Faried Nawaz Date: 10 Nov 1997 11:38:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: ttraylor@titan.mcit.com's message of 10 Nov 1997 10:45:20 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ttraylor@titan.mcit.com (Thomas S. Traylor) writes: A reboot was the only real way to clean it up. There were to many process to kill off. Everytime you killed off a process, it allowed another process for that user to startup. Judicious use of kill -STOP will help here. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 13:18:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29230 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29217 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:18:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA00391; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:17:52 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711102117.QAA00391@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IDE performance - benchmark numbers In-Reply-To: <646co4$n3l$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> from Christopher Masto at "Nov 10, 97 07:22:44 am" To: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:17:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher Masto said: > > I don't have an apples-to-apples comparison, though.. the closest is > a P166 with the same amount of RAM (32MB) and an Adaptec 2940UW: > > Writing the 64 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...8.453125 seconds > Reading the file...7.070312 seconds > IOZONE performance measurements: > 7938941 bytes/second for writing the file > 9491640 bytes/second for reading the file > Ultra-DMA results with WD 5.1: IOZONE: Performance Test of Sequential File I/O -- V2.01 (10/21/94) By Bill Norcott Operating System: FreeBSD 2.x -- using fsync() Send comments to: b_norcott@xway.com IOZONE writes a 150 Megabyte sequential file consisting of 19200 records which are each 8192 bytes in length. It then reads the file. It prints the bytes-per-second rate at which the computer can read and write files. Writing the 150 Megabyte file, 'iozone.tmp'...15.984375 seconds Reading the file...15.039062 seconds IOZONE performance measurements: 9840009 bytes/second for writing the file 10458524 bytes/second for reading the file -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 15:07:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06361 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from isgate.is (isgate.is [193.4.58.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06355 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:07:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from totii@est.is) Received: from eh.est.is (eh.est.is [194.144.208.34]) by isgate.is (8.7.5-M/) with ESMTP id XAA16161 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:07:28 GMT Received: from didda.est.is (totii@ppp-22.est.is [194.144.208.122]) by eh.est.is (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05282 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:07:37 GMT Message-ID: <346793AD.41C67EA6@est.is> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:07:25 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=DEor=F0ur?= Ivarsson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is there any Harware Compatibility list?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA06356 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was wondering if Hardware Compatibility list does exist within the FreeBSD community ? Something more than in FreeBSD handbook ? -- Þórður Ívarsson Thordur Ivarsson Rafeindavirki Electronic technician Norðurgötu 30 Nordurgotu 30 Box 309 Box 309 602 Akureyri 602 Akureyri Ísland Iceland --------------------------------------------- FreeBSD has good features, Some others are full of unwanted features! --------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 15:38:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07974 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:38:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07969 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA00619 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:33:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:33:33 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Video Cards?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm drowning in sea of marketing madness... Does anyone have any feelings on what is a good high-performance video card that likes XFree? I was perusing the release notes on 3.3.1, and I'm lost. How many computer stores sell cards by chipset?? "Hi, I'll take an S3 Virge and a Weitek, please"... So from experience can anyone recommend something along the lines of the Matrox Millenium II that's supported on XFree? Thanks, Charles Charles Sprickman Internet Channel spork@super-g.com access@inch.com ---- ---- "I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man Just a mortal with potential of a superman I'm living on" -DB From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 17:21:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14054 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14047 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:21:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id CAA18923; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:21:44 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id CAA05535; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:17:28 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971111021727.RD32022@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:17:27 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jm@pluriproj.pt (Jose Monteiro) Subject: Re: Safe Finger References: <3469f775.9453032@mail.leirianet.pt> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3C3469f775=2E9453032=40mail=2Eleirianet=2Ept=3E=3B_from_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Monteiro_on_Nov_10=2C_1997_12=3A02=3A52_+0000?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As José Monteiro wrote: > Can someone tell me where can I find a safe finger implementation (one > that does not reveal who's on the system and so on) for freebsd? Have a look at GNU finger. It's an all-singing all-dancing implementation, and even if you're trying to make something that's not yet supported, this should be enough of a skeleton to tweak it into every direction you want. (There's a port of it as well.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 22:20:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29698 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29692 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:20:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27986; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:20:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA15169; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:20:10 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:20:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711110526.WAA21873@usr02.primenet.com> References: <17165.879196838@time.cdrom.com> <199711110526.WAA21873@usr02.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ moved to -chat, for 'religious' reasons ] > BTW: it's not the people who talk to God you have to worry about, it's > the people who claim God talks to them, and that somehow ennobles their > position in any discussion. And what would you say if I said God talked to me, Terry? Would you blow me off and claim I was stupid or silly? I claim that people who area always right no matter what are much more obnoxious to talk to than people who 'hear from God'. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 22:31:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00419 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:31:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00410 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA07696; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:27:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga19-02.ix.netcom.com(205.186.178.34) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma007453; Tue Nov 11 00:26:11 1997 Message-ID: <3467FA72.2536360D@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:25:54 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible Kernel Bug? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [moved to -chat] Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > > I may be dead wrong about this but it is worth a try: > > void *data; > void *data_end; > > lets say you are passed a struct buf with a data buffer bp->b_data > and bp->b_bcount = 1000; > > if you say data = bp->b_data /* this is fine */ > what about data_end = bp->b_data + bp->b_bcount /* this pointer could > point to something nonexistent??? */ Uh-uh... that ain't legal. (How wide is a void?) This works tho... data_end = &((caddr_t) bp->b_data)[bp->b_count]; or data_end = ((caddr_t) bp->b_data) + bp->b_count; (apologies (for (my (lisp-ish (tendencies] > > so dereferencing it is definetly a no no (and that is not being done) but > I see places where data compared to data_end , now since caddr_t is > defined as , such as while (data < data_end) > > typedef char *caddr_t; > which i assume is represented as a 32 bit unsigned integer void pointers can be compared against each other, no prob. It's an address that gets compared, remember. One can't dereference void pointers for comparison as you correctly indicated. What *does* a void point to? (I just checked my inbox and saw Chuck's reply. Gotta dig out the reference but I do believe that comparisons of void pointers are legal. Math isn't. There used to be some concerns about portability but these are probably of little concern with modern processors. For instance, DG Eclipse processors had different representations of pointers for integers and characters residing at the same physical location in memory). Now where is my Harbison & Steele... > > are you guaranteed that the byte 0xffffffff is never allocated? In theory it's a problem. In practice I don't think it's gonna happen. > this should be true in addition to 0x00000000 never being allocated. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 22:46:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01379 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr03.primenet.com (tlambert@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.6.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01372 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr03.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr03.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02334; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:45:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:45:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 10, 97 11:20:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ moved to -chat, for 'religious' reasons ] > > > BTW: it's not the people who talk to God you have to worry about, it's > > the people who claim God talks to them, and that somehow ennobles their > > position in any discussion. > > And what would you say if I said God talked to me, Terry? Would you > blow me off and claim I was stupid or silly? I claim that people who > area always right no matter what are much more obnoxious to talk to than > people who 'hear from God'. :) I would be skeptical unless you could repeat your performance in a laboratory. The people who say "...and then I'd still be skeptical" are athiests, and have just as closed a mind as those who claim existance based on faith. Noth that I have anything against circular reasonong, I just like to know who I'm talking to. On the other hand, if God only told you soccer scores in Brazil one week after the event, I'd remain skeptical, since your model is not predictive. 8-). If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 10 23:32:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04738 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04726 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:32:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA09747; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:28:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga19-02.ix.netcom.com(205.186.178.34) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009731; Tue Nov 11 01:28:08 1997 Message-ID: <346808F7.D6555734@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:27:51 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Possible Kernel Bug? References: <3467FA72.2536360D@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jerry Hicks wrote: > > [moved to -chat] > > Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > > > > I may be dead wrong about this but it is worth a try: > > > > void *data; > > void *data_end; > > > > lets say you are passed a struct buf with a data buffer bp->b_data > > and bp->b_bcount = 1000; > > > > if you say data = bp->b_data /* this is fine */ > > what about data_end = bp->b_data + bp->b_bcount /* this pointer could > > point to something nonexistent??? */ OOOPS! I ass-u-me-d that bp->b_data was a void pointer. If it's a char pointer, that *is* legal. J. Hicks From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 07:13:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA28198 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:13:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from terror.hungry.com (fn@terror.hungry.com [169.131.1.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28192 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:13:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fn@LISP-READER.Hungry.COM) Received: (from fn@localhost) by terror.hungry.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA08506; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:13:48 -0800 (PST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> From: Faried Nawaz Date: 11 Nov 1997 07:13:48 -0800 In-Reply-To: tlambert@primenet.com's message of 10 Nov 1997 23:15:40 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) writes: If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. A quote in fortunes2 is If you talk to God, you are praying; if God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. -- Thomas Szasz Every day, for a year or so, I used to find quotes from all sorts of sources, and place them in the motd of some university systems I admin'd. One day, I put that quote in there, and got lots of flames. I hadn't heard anyone in real life claim to hear God before that incident. faried (still living in Idaho) -- WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY BACKSPACE IS DELETE From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 08:52:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04739 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04729 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:52:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01692; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16566; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:02 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ More 'religious' discussion, delete if not interested ] > > > BTW: it's not the people who talk to God you have to worry about, it's > > > the people who claim God talks to them, and that somehow ennobles their > > > position in any discussion. > > > > And what would you say if I said God talked to me, Terry? Would you > > blow me off and claim I was stupid or silly? I claim that people who > > area always right no matter what are much more obnoxious to talk to than > > people who 'hear from God'. :) > > I would be skeptical unless you could repeat your performance in a > laboratory. Ok, but what if what God told me wasn't fortelling the future, but was instead based on something that is impossible to 'measure' scientifically. (Example, it was information on another person that tells me something about them that I wouldn't normally be able discern without having a conversation about that person, and that it only happened some of the time, based on the needs of the person.) Not everything you believe in must be scientifically provable. Heck, most things normal people 'believe in' are taken for granted anyway, such as > The people who say "...and then I'd still be skeptical" > are athiests, and have just as closed a mind as those who claim > existance based on faith. Ahh, so people who have faith in something unknown or unseen have a closed mind. Glad you think so, since faith is applicable to many things outside of religion, and therefore if you have faith in them, you must have a closed mind. [ Apologies to any Indian people on the list ] Terry, have you ever been to India? It must not exist, since you've never seen it, nor even been anywhere near it. See, all of the 'Indian' people that you know are making it all up as a cruel hoax against you and laughing behind your back, and really don't live in another country, but instead all come from a small corner of South America. They produce all of the pictures and materials just to complete the facade, and they're doing a pretty good job of it. What, you don't believe me? Well, obviously you must have 'faith' that this country exists first, or that your 'faith' in the people who have convinced you that India exists is greater than the 'faith' you have in me that it doesn't exist. You have 'Faith' based on someone else's experiene that India exists, and a lack of faith in me. Belief in something outside *YOUR* experiences is faith, so basically you have no faith in 'spiritual' people that a God or gods could exist that directly/indirectly affect your life and existance. So, the *real* question is what caused this lack of faith in people who claim to know and/or hear from God? > If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until > you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. Hearing from God != foretelling the future. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 09:19:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06545 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:19:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06463 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:18:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from giffuni.inteng.com ([168.176.3.41]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA18809; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:29:24 +0500 Message-ID: <3467A1D9.47C029A6@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:07:53 +0000 From: "Pedro Giffuni S." Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com CC: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDT processors? References: <199711100207.UAA08730@nospam.hiwaay.net> <34667DA7.F161BF58@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It should be possible to use gcc as a crosscompiler. Take a look at my (now old) crosssco port and/or look at ftp://ftp.cygnus.com/pub/embedded/crossgcc/FAQ (This URL is rusty, hope it still works). Pedro. Jerry Hicks wrote: > ... > > It would be nice to have a cross-development package for these > processors hosted on FreeBSD, since there are quite a few ISA/PCI boards > available for PC systems. > > Anybody know of anything workable? > > Something we're missing for telecomm applications like IS41, etc. > > Jerry Hicks > jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 10:37:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11833 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:37:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11820 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:37:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23698; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:36:12 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA22576; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:36:10 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:36:10 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Nate Williams CC: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Nate Williams's message of Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:02 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until > > you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. > > Hearing from God != foretelling the future. However, if it isn't predictive, it is more-or-less uninteresting. It doesn't give you information - information is predictive. It might give you good feelings and "solutions to your problems", but noting that is relevant to the rest of the world. OTOH, I believe information on India to be predictive - so far, no country I've been told about as personal experience by more than 20 people have failed to be there when I tried to visit it :-) I believe in a common reality. I also believe in measurements of this common reality - let's call it 'the physical world' - being common to people. I believe in some of these measurements being usable to statistically predict later measurements, and being able to use that to define the world. Another belief is in the ability of people (including me) to fool themselves. All of those are religious beliefs - I can't think of anything you could say/demonstrate to make me loose them. I don't feel the need for a god to be able to describe the world, this I don't introduce one. There are obvious changes in brain-chemistry that explain religious ecstasy and other verifiable religious effects. I can't see any need to connect them with anything more than the rituals and ability to self-deceit in the people involved. As soon as something is predictive beyond the physical world, this need changes, and I'll reconsider my opinion. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 10:46:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12389 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12384 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:46:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18289; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:46:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd018283; Tue Nov 11 11:46:19 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA26633; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:46:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711111846.LAA26633@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:46:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 11, 97 09:52:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ More 'religious' discussion, delete if not interested ] Not that your or my opinions on this have much to do with FreeBSD... 8-). > > > I would be skeptical unless you could repeat your performance in a > > laboratory. > > Ok, but what if what God told me wasn't fortelling the future, but was > instead based on something that is impossible to 'measure' > scientifically. (Example, it was information on another person that > tells me something about them that I wouldn't normally be able discern > without having a conversation about that person, and that it only > happened some of the time, based on the needs of the person.) > > Not everything you believe in must be scientifically provable. Heck, > most things normal people 'believe in' are taken for granted anyway, > such as I agree to an extent. Only that which you believe in that you *also* expectect me to believe in must be scientifically provable, since unless I'm your impressionable kid (who you can program up however you want, since you're the parent), it will take provability to make me believe what you believe. > > The people who say "...and then I'd still be skeptical" > > are athiests, and have just as closed a mind as those who claim > > existance based on faith. > > Ahh, so people who have faith in something unknown or unseen have a > closed mind. Glad you think so, since faith is applicable to many > things outside of religion, and therefore if you have faith in them, you > must have a closed mind. The gist of my statement on atheism is that if you refuse to believe after offered verifiabale proof, you have a closed mind. An athiest is someone who has made a decision based on the absence of proof, rather than on proof of absence. You can't be a theist or an athiest without either having proof OR having a closed mind on the subject about which you have faith. > [ Apologies to any Indian people on the list ] > > Terry, have you ever been to India? It must not exist, since you've > never seen it, nor even been anywhere near it. See, all of the 'Indian' > people that you know are making it all up as a cruel hoax against you > and laughing behind your back, and really don't live in another country, > but instead all come from a small corner of South America. They produce > all of the pictures and materials just to complete the facade, and > they're doing a pretty good job of it. > > What, you don't believe me? It's your choice of place -- now if you'd said "Idaho is fictitious"... I figure that someone from Montanna would have to be in on it if it *were* a conspiracy. 8-) 8-). > Well, obviously you must have 'faith' that > this country exists first, or that your 'faith' in the people who have > convinced you that India exists is greater than the 'faith' you have in > me that it doesn't exist. You have 'Faith' based on someone else's > experiene that India exists, and a lack of faith in me. Actually, I've seen satellite photos. I guess you could claim that what I saw was Lilliputia or Xanth or something... 8-). But in reality, it's an issue of pragmatism -- engineering instead of physics... Occam's Razor in action. That there is an India is a simpler explanation that fits all the facts than that there is an "India conspiracy". So until you present evidence to the contrary, I won't "believe" in India, but I'll take its existance as a working hypothesis. ;-). > Belief in something outside *YOUR* experiences is faith, so basically > you have no faith in 'spiritual' people that a God or gods could exist > that directly/indirectly affect your life and existance. So, the *real* > question is what caused this lack of faith in people who claim to know > and/or hear from God? In one word: Science. There's a wonderful science fiction story along these lines, where the main character's friends father hears God, and it's a problem for the friend. So the friend takes his father, and gets his brain chemistry adjusted to "normal" (average human of the time) tolerances. The father quits hearing God, and though he was opposed to the adjustment beforehand, he thanks his child after the fact. The story ends with the main character (who has been observing all this) having the same chemical imbalance the father had suffered from electively induced to combat his own (perceived) crises of faith -- and he begins to hear God. The question this parable asks is "what ennobles a majority, so that people think 'majority equals right'?" > > If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until > > you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. > > Hearing from God != foretelling the future. But knowing there is a God as ooposed to hypothesizing that there is or isn't should be enough for you to build a better model of the universe than someone who doesn't know. Someone who doesn't know can't make any simplifying assumptions one way or the other. Better models are more predictive. So while "hearing from God != foretelling the future", knowing that there is (or isn't) a God should make you better at fortelling the future than someone who doesn't know. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 11:35:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16008 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:35:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15999 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02792; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:35:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA17390; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:35:00 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:35:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Nate Williams , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until > > > you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. > > > > Hearing from God != foretelling the future. > > However, if it isn't predictive, it is more-or-less uninteresting. I don't know, lots of people consider it pretty interesting when people know things about them that can't be ascertained except by 'divine insight'. (Not that it happens alot, but it does happen.) > It > doesn't give you information - information is predictive. It does give information, just not information that is completely predictable. Asking for 'scientific' provable information from human beings, let alone God (or gods) is asking for a chaotic system to become non-chaotic. You simply can't use scientific methods for systems who don't have predictable or consistant behavior. Claiming that something doesn't exist because it's not predictable is too simplistic of a model for the problem at hand. > OTOH, I believe information on India to be predictive - so far, no > country I've been told about as personal experience by more than 20 > people have failed to be there when I tried to visit it :-) I can give you hundreds of thousands of people who will give you personal experiences about God and his reality, yet will you choose to believe them? > I don't feel the need for a god to be able to describe the world, this > I don't introduce one. Just because your not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. *grin* Aka, just because you don't have a 'felt need' for God/gods doesn't mean he/she/it doesn't exist. That simple foolishness. > There are obvious changes in brain-chemistry that explain religious > ecstasy and other verifiable religious effects. There are also things that are completely beyond the realm of scientific understanding as well, that cannot be 'explained away'. For example, a recent "scientific" study on 'prayer' was given. There were two groups of 'ill/sick' patients, one the control group, the other group needs were given to a group of people who had no contact with the group, and the results were astonishing. The people who were prayed for had a significant better recovery rate than the control group, yet there was absolutely no contact between any of the members in the entire 'experiment'. How do you explain that? Bad testing, not a big enough experiment group, co-incidence, etc...? Not everything can be explained by scientific reasoning, hence the need for 'FAITH'. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 11:51:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17262 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:51:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17252 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:51:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02897; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:51:12 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA17461; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:51:11 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:51:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711111951.MAA17461@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711111846.LAA26633@usr04.primenet.com> References: <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111846.LAA26633@usr04.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [ More 'religious' discussion, delete if not interested ] > > Not that your or my opinions on this have much to do with FreeBSD... 8-). *grin* > > [ Apologies to any Indian people on the list ] > > > > but instead all come from a small corner of South America. They produce > > all of the pictures and materials just to complete the facade, and > > they're doing a pretty good job of it. > > Actually, I've seen satellite photos. I guess you could claim that > what I saw was Lilliputia or Xanth or something... 8-). Those were made up. Were you there when the satellite photos were taken, or did you trust the guy who 'produced' the picture to not lie to you. > But in reality, it's an issue of pragmatism -- engineering instead > of physics... Occam's Razor in action. That there is an India is a > simpler explanation that fits all the facts than that there is an > "India conspiracy". Simpler != truth. > > Belief in something outside *YOUR* experiences is faith, so basically > > you have no faith in 'spiritual' people that a God or gods could exist > > that directly/indirectly affect your life and existance. So, the *real* > > question is what caused this lack of faith in people who claim to know > > and/or hear from God? > > In one word: Science. How does 'Sciene' explain away God? > There's a wonderful science fiction story along these lines, where > the main character's friends father hears God, and it's a problem > for the friend. So the friend takes his father, and gets his brain > chemistry adjusted to "normal" (average human of the time) tolerances. > The father quits hearing God, and though he was opposed to the > adjustment beforehand, he thanks his child after the fact. The > story ends with the main character (who has been observing all this) > having the same chemical imbalance the father had suffered from > electively induced to combat his own (perceived) crises of faith > -- and he begins to hear God. Great, stories are wonderful things, but aren't necessarily reality. I've read lots of sci-fi stories that have exact opposite slant, so which one is more relevant to 'reality'? > The question this parable asks is "what ennobles a majority, so that > people think 'majority equals right'?" No, the question this story asks is 'Does the belief in God imply mental dysfunction'? Some of the brightest men throughout history had a *strong* belief in God, so apparently intelligence is somehow linked to dysfunction. :) > So while "hearing from God != foretelling the future", knowing that > there is (or isn't) a God should make you better at fortelling the > future than someone who doesn't know. How much better is good enough for you? And how come 'foretelling the future' is the measurement of God's existance? What about issues such as 'happiness, contentment, etc..' All of these are un-measurable quantities, and hence 'Science' can't do anything with them, but are none-the-less of much greater importance to 'life'. Science is a way of measureing 'process', but it fails as I stated when the measured 'process' is non-deterministic, such as humanity and/or God. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 12:00:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17955 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:00:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17918 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:00:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from giffuni.inteng.com ([168.176.3.39]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA19521; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:02:55 +0500 Message-ID: <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:54:17 +0000 From: "Pedro Giffuni S." Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until > > > you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. > > > > Hearing from God != foretelling the future. > > However, if it isn't predictive, it is more-or-less uninteresting. It > doesn't give you information - information is predictive. It might > give you good feelings and "solutions to your problems", but noting > that is relevant to the rest of the world. > I would consider the predictive part interesting...If you know you will die betrayed and you will go to hell, but you can't avoid it...why should you want to know in the first place? > > I don't feel the need for a god to be able to describe the world, this > I don't introduce one. Of course...God doesn't exist to describe the world !...He only created it, we were left with the problem of keeping it working :-). Pedro. > Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 13:32:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24679 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:32:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24669 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id GAA22528; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 06:29:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma022517; Tue, 11 Nov 97 06:29:42 -0800 Message-ID: <3468CE57.4827@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:29:59 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111846.LAA26633@usr04.primenet.com> <199711111951.MAA17461@rocky.mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ... and our good friend Godel proved that there MUST exist something outside of a universe in order to define said universe. If there does in fact exist something outside of the universe, then science -- which by definition operates according to the rules of the universe -- can't completely explain said outside thing's behavior. This doesn't answer the creation question or the faith question, but it does prove that science will never be able to explain everything. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 14:27:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28411 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:27:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dumbwinter.logic.it (m16.logic.it [195.120.151.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28371 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:27:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 1411 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Nov 1997 15:07:21 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:07:20 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Quote of the day (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 03:50:02 -0700 From: Quote of the day To: Quote of the day mailing list Subject: Quote of the day "Still, there are some things a big company can do that a small band of programmers could never hope to accomplish. This was best shown to me this week by reader Brian P. McLean, who points out that according to his Microsoft Outlook 97 scheduling/datebook application, Thanksgiving falls this year on Wednesday, November 26. "Thanksgiving has always fallen on Thursday before. Wednesday may be an improvement. I don't know." - Robert X. Cringely, from his "I, Cringely" column (November 7, 1997) [I borrowed a Windows NT PC to check this - it's true. -ed.] Submitted by: Allan Noordvyk Nov. 7, 1997 -------------------------------------------------------------- Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 14:49:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00262 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00249 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:49:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06592; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:48:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711112248.OAA06592@rah.star-gate.com> To: don@PartsNow.com cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:29:59 PST." <3468CE57.4827@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:48:17 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmm... Actually, I have a simpler question how can anyone describe singularity -- where the laws of physics as we now today breakdown. Assuming of course that black holes and singularity exists.... Not sure that Godel's theorem applies to the creation of the Universe specially if we take for granted the origin of the Universe with the Big Bang -- prior to that the laws of physics and logic as we know it don't apply. Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 14:53:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00638 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00629 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:53:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04175; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:52:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18817; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:52:30 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:52:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711112252.PAA18817@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: don@partsnow.com, Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711112248.OAA06592@rah.star-gate.com> References: <3468CE57.4827@PartsNow.com> <199711112248.OAA06592@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Actually, I have a simpler question how can anyone describe ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > singularity -- where the laws of physics as we now today breakdown ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hmm, those two issues seem to be in conflict. :) :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 15:01:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01293 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:01:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01286 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:01:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id HAA23801; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma023799; Tue, 11 Nov 97 07:58:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3468E346.35CD@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:59:18 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711112248.OAA06592@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Whee... this -chat is FUN! Somebody please remind me I'm supposed to be working... Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Not sure that Godel's theorem applies to the creation of the Universe > specially if we take for granted the origin of the Universe with the > Big Bang -- prior to that the laws of physics and logic as we know ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > it don't apply. Sure, but Godel specifically states that you can't completely define anything without a reference framework of SOMETHING outside of it, and by definition that's outside of the realm of physics. Now, whether that something CREATED or AFFECTS our physical universe, well... I happen to have faith that there is in fact a Creator who does affect us regularly, but I haven't objectively determined whether he has a beard yet :) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 15:15:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02250 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02244 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:15:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06692; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711112314.PAA06692@rah.star-gate.com> To: don@PartsNow.com cc: Amancio Hasty , Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:59:18 PST." <3468E346.35CD@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:14:30 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gosh , Godel was smart --- I just have a problem in applying a a theorem to an unknown such as "singularity" the point of origin of the universe. Is not hard to envision , why Einstein had a psychlogical problem with black holes -- I guess so far what it is really saying that there is a limit to knowledge which should not a be a surprise in a realm of acausal "something" for lack of words to describe existence in "singularity". I am feeling very tire today --- this usually happens to corporeal beings when they are contructed of parts that then to travel faster than the speed of light of brief moments and the little buggers are billions of years old. Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 15:17:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02396 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:17:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02387 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz) From: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199711112317.PAA02387@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from tpc-pc1 by cc-server9 with SMTP(PP); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:53:14 +1300 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: TV Production Centre, Massey University To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:53:04 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) Reply-to: C.R.Harding@massey.ac.nz CC: Nate Williams Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> References: <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk While a xtians vs atheists debate may be pushing the "chat" envelope just a little too far, and while I hesitate to participate in a debate that has occured several million times already in every other part of the Net.... Nate Williams wrote: >[...does India exist...] > What, you don't believe me? Well, obviously you must have 'faith' > that this country exists first, or that your 'faith' in the people > who have convinced you that India exists is greater than the 'faith' > you have in me that it doesn't exist. You have 'Faith' based on > someone else's experiene that India exists, and a lack of faith in > me. Bollocks. While this is a nice analogy for looney believers to push in a desperate justification of the unjustifiable, it simply ain't so. India is a repeatable phenomenon. God isn't. -- C. (who thought that Contact was a remarkabley heavy-handed piece of peurile dribble with some very nice special effects). -- Craig Harding Acting Director, Massey University Television Production Centre "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 15:35:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03955 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:35:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03933 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA24246; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:32:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma024241; Tue, 11 Nov 97 08:32:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3468EB0F.4A59@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:32:31 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711112314.PAA06692@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty wrote: > I am feeling very tire today --- this usually happens to > corporeal beings when they are contructed of parts that > then to travel faster than the speed of light of brief > moments and the little buggers are billions of years old. > > Cheers, > Amancio Nahhhh... You just released bt848 and need a new project to work on... :) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 15:40:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04398 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:40:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04390 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26784; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:39:32 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id AAA23291; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:39:29 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:39:29 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Nate Williams CC: perhaps@yes.no, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Nate Williams's message of Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:35:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Terry Lambert] >>>> If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic >>>> until you became predictive... any factually based model is >>>> predictive. [Nate Williams] >>> Hearing from God != foretelling the future. [Eivind Eklund] >> However, if it isn't predictive, it is more-or-less uninteresting. [Nate Williams] > I don't know, lots of people consider it pretty interesting when people > know things about them that can't be ascertained except by 'divine > insight'. (Not that it happens alot, but it does happen.) However, that is predictive. I think we might have a problem with definitions here - more below. [Eivind Eklund] >> It doesn't give you information - information is predictive. [Nate Williams] > It does give information, just not information that is completely > predictable. Asking for 'scientific' provable information from human > beings, let alone God (or gods) is asking for a chaotic system to become > non-chaotic. I disagree that humans are a non-predictable system. There is chaos, sure, but there are clearly predictable properties. Which information people have is one; health is another. (Discussed below) > You simply can't use scientific methods for systems who don't have > predictable or consistant behavior. Claiming that something doesn't > exist because it's not predictable is too simplistic of a model for > the problem at hand. First of all: I'm not claiming it (god(s)) don't exist. I claim there is too little information to determine; that I've not seen anything I consider proof. On to the meat: The fact that something isn't totally predictable doesn't stop us from using the scientific method on it. Atomic splitting isn't predictable on the individual level - we still use statistics on it. Predictive in the sense I'm using it means just that - we can use some form of statistics to let this predict _something_ about the world. Usually just how more statistics will turn out . However, if you can't do this at some level, you don't have anything - you just have a more complex hypothesis not gaining anything. There is a couple of cases where you even can't use statistics: Where your measurement will impact the experiment so much that the result won't be valid, and the case where it is too expensive to create an experiment. However, I'm not buying that "there is a god" is such a hypothesis - I consider it a non-disprovable hypothesis, and as such not a matter for science. However, it might be "provable" - statistically showable - but I also consider this unlikely. > > OTOH, I believe information on India to be predictive - so far, no > > country I've been told about as personal experience by more than 20 > > people have failed to be there when I tried to visit it :-) > > I can give you hundreds of thousands of people who will give you > personal experiences about God and his reality, yet will you choose to > believe them? No :-) Witnesses lie. On this, even more than on anything else. They even lie without knowing it. The (non)-existence God isn't a country - it isn't easily verifiable. I used to have a personal belief in God, and had some of those experiences. With hindsight, I see how these experiences was induced by rituals and early conditioning. I've since had similar experiences with psychoactive drugs, and with other religious rituals. They all seem to boil down to inducing certain moods, certain mind-alterations. > > I don't feel the need for a god to be able to describe the world, this > > I don't introduce one. > > Just because your not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get > you. *grin* > > Aka, just because you don't have a 'felt need' for God/gods doesn't mean > he/she/it doesn't exist. That simple foolishness. I've not said they don't exist - I'm just saying I've never seen any data that I need to resort to a God to be able to explain. Thus I choose what I consider the simpler hypothesis - that there isn't any. This is not something I'm 100% fixed on - it is just my present hypothesis. I'd change my hypothesis come data to the contrary. > > There are obvious changes in brain-chemistry that explain religious > > ecstasy and other verifiable religious effects. > > There are also things that are completely beyond the realm of scientific > understanding as well, that cannot be 'explained away'. For example, a > recent "scientific" study on 'prayer' was given. There were two groups > of 'ill/sick' patients, one the control group, the other group needs > were given to a group of people who had no contact with the group, and > the results were astonishing. The people who were prayed for had a > significant better recovery rate than the control group, yet there was > absolutely no contact between any of the members in the entire > 'experiment'. How do you explain that? Bad testing, not a big enough > experiment group, co-incidence, etc...? This is interesting. I'd need more information about the experiment before I could say anything about it - what immediately pop up as things that would need to be checked is Was this done as a proper double-blind study? Were the groups selected from equal demographic groups? Significant variables include but are not limited to socio-economic background and religious distribution. How large were the groups? How does the result compare statistically to smaller random selections from the groups (ie, how much is edge results, and how statistically significant are the results)? Is there any other similar studies that have been done before? How does the results compare to them? How were the researchers biased (all researchers are biased :-)? What is the chance of the results being fake? If all of those were answered to my satisfaction, and preferably the same results were replicated by researchers with different biases, I'd say the results are significant. However, my first hunch wouldn't be that the results indicate that there is a god - my first hunch would be that they indicate working telepathy and through that, placebo effect. It would still be a significant result. And yeah, I'm extremely sceptical to what I consider improbable results. Too easy to get wrong results in complex science :-( > Not everything can be explained by scientific reasoning, hence the > need for 'FAITH'. I'm not certain I agree with you here. Actually, I'm not quite certain what you're trying to say. Do you mean that not everything fit into our present model of the world, the one we have used science to derive? I certainly agree. If you mean that there are things we can't use science to investigate, but should believe in anyway because we were told about it as kids and people claim non-verifiable 'experiences' - then I don't agree. Close investigation tend to show those experiences wrongly represented, and have so far not shown them to need us to go outside our world view in order to explain :-( Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 16:02:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05805 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:02:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05791 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:02:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27080; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:02:27 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id BAA23398; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:02:25 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:02:25 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: "Pedro Giffuni S." CC: perhaps@yes.no, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: "Pedro Giffuni S."'s message of Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:54:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > > > If you weren't predictive, I might claim you were schitzophernic until > > > > you became predictive... any factually based model is predictive. > > > > > > Hearing from God != foretelling the future. > > > > However, if it isn't predictive, it is more-or-less uninteresting. It > > doesn't give you information - information is predictive. It might > > give you good feelings and "solutions to your problems", but noting > > that is relevant to the rest of the world. > > > I would consider the predictive part interesting...If you know you will > die betrayed and you will go to hell, but you can't avoid it...why > should you want to know in the first place? I wouldn't - but that isn't the level of prediction I'm talking about :-) If we should at all consider God as something to have as part of a scientific world-view, we need to be able to get a better model of the world from including Him - we need to be able to create better predictions on how the world will behave. Unless we can do that, whether to believe in Him is a purely personal question - there is nothing in the world to indicate that He exists. I'm not denying anybody's faith - I'm just saying that unless it can be used to create better predictions of the world, it is purely that - faith. Predictions is the only form of evidence that exists, for all of science, and all of our (true) perception. The belief in God is likely to go outside proof - He can't be disproved, but it seems unlikely that He will be proved anytime soon :-) > > I don't feel the need for a god to be able to describe the world, this > > I don't introduce one. > > Of course...God doesn't exist to describe the world !...He only created > it, we were left with the problem of keeping it working :-). ... which leaves us with the existence of God and mass psychosis being equally likely from the evidence of our senses, and mass psychosis explaining MORE, as it include all religions ;-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 16:12:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06564 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:12:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06541 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04738; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:11:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA19556; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:11:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:11:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120011.RAA19556@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Nate Williams , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Nate Williams] > > It does give information, just not information that is completely > > predictable. Asking for 'scientific' provable information from human > > beings, let alone God (or gods) is asking for a chaotic system to become > > non-chaotic. > > I disagree that humans are a non-predictable system. There is chaos, > sure, but there are clearly predictable properties. Which information > people have is one; health is another. (Discussed below) I see no predictability in humans behavior, and the arguements against the existance of God/god is defined by his behavior towards man, or in particular one person's ability to 'predict the future' in a controlled setting. > On to the meat: The fact that something isn't totally predictable > doesn't stop us from using the scientific method on it. Sure, but it makes those methods and the results subject to much controversy. > Atomic > splitting isn't predictable on the individual level - we still use > statistics on it. Your dealing with stuff that by it's very nature *must* be predictable, or else matter as we know would cease to exist, and it doesn't. Comparing atoms to human beings is quite a stretch. > Predictive in the sense I'm using it means just > that - we can use some form of statistics to let this predict > _something_ about the world. Usually just how more statistics will > turn out . However, if you can't do this at some level, you don't > have anything - you just have a more complex hypothesis not gaining > anything. Exactly my point. You cannot make sort of hypothesis that can accurately define 'human behavior', since it's a chaotic system. There's a great Dilbert cartoon to this effect. :) > There is a couple of cases where you even can't use statistics: Where > your measurement will impact the experiment so much that the result > won't be valid, and the case where it is too expensive to create an > experiment. You can use statistics everywhere you want, but the results are meaningless if the subject does not exhibit consistant behavior. You can give statistics on it all day long but they are meaningless, and change from 'study' to 'study'. > > > I don't feel the need for a god to be able to describe the world, this > > > I don't introduce one. > > > > Just because your not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get > > you. *grin* > > > > Aka, just because you don't have a 'felt need' for God/gods doesn't mean > > he/she/it doesn't exist. That simple foolishness. > > I've not said they don't exist - I'm just saying I've never seen any > data that I need to resort to a God to be able to explain. Your need (or lack thereof) for God isn't the point, the point is that the possibility of the existance of God isn't dependant on scientific or statistical evidence. > > There are also things that are completely beyond the realm of scientific > > understanding as well, that cannot be 'explained away'. For example, a > > recent "scientific" study on 'prayer' was given. There were two groups > > of 'ill/sick' patients, one the control group, the other group needs > > were given to a group of people who had no contact with the group, and > > the results were astonishing. The people who were prayed for had a > > significant better recovery rate than the control group, yet there was > > absolutely no contact between any of the members in the entire > > 'experiment'. How do you explain that? Bad testing, not a big enough > > experiment group, co-incidence, etc...? > > > This is interesting. I'd need more information about the experiment > before I could say anything about it - what immediately pop up as > things that would need to be checked is > Unfortunately, I don't have the references available (I wish I did), but the study was discussed in Reader's Digest of all places sometime in the last 12 months. (Sometimes it's nice to read something other than technical documentation when sitting on the throne. *grin*) > > Not everything can be explained by scientific reasoning, hence the > > need for 'FAITH'. > > Do you mean that not everything fit into our present model of the > world, the one we have used science to derive? I certainly agree. And that there are certain things in our life where 'science' will ultimately fail us. It can take us a long way, but at a certain point the vehicle that is 'science' is inherently limited to understanding things that are finite and predictable. When the things being studied is neither finite nor predictable, science will fail. It doesn't mean that science is useless, far from it. But, realizing that it isn't doesn't contain the 'explanation' for everything is important. > If you mean that there are things we can't use science to investigate, > but should believe in anyway because we were told about it as kids and > people claim non-verifiable 'experiences' - then I don't agree. So, if it's not scientifically provable, then it's doesn't exist? I get the impression that many of the 'anti-religious' people somehow get the mistaken impression that somehow religion is based on childish notions, and that any adult with a belief in the scientific process can't be expected to have religious beliefs and still be sane. Sciene and Faith are at odds *only* for those things which Science cannot explain due to lack of understand *all* of the issues in science, or due to it's inherent limitations as discuseed above. But that doesn't mean a scientist must refuse to acknowledge that something exists because science cannot explain it, or quantify it. As you pointed out above, you've had experiences in your life that you cannot fully explain, but have hypothesis for them. Even in your rebuttal of the 'prayer changing things' you bring up something that is just as 'non-scientific' as telepathy, which is also something that is completely un-quantifiable. Your 'Faith' that telepathy exists is greater than your 'Faith' that God exists, but you have faith none-the-less. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 16:17:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06800 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from wawasee.read.indiana.edu (wawasee.read.indiana.edu [149.159.108.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06792 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ghormann@nix.kconline.com) Received: from localhost (xwin@localhost) by wawasee.read.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA06262; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:16:41 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: wawasee.read.indiana.edu: xwin owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:16:41 -0500 (EST) From: Greg Hormann X-Sender: xwin@wawasee.read.indiana.edu To: Faried Nawaz cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crashing FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ttraylor@titan.mcit.com (Thomas S. Traylor) writes: > > A reboot was the only real way to clean it up. There were to many > process to kill off. Everytime you killed off a process, it allowed > another process for that user to startup. > > Judicious use of kill -STOP will help here. > killall(8) works better. Greg. ______________________________________________________________________________ Greg Hormann | | | ghormann@indiana.edu | | | http://php.ucs.indiana.edu/~ghormann/home.html |. \____/. ______________________________________________________________________________ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 16:42:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08484 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08479 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:42:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id JAA25250; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:39:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma025248; Tue, 11 Nov 97 09:39:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:39:45 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: Nate Williams , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As I remember, the prayer experiment was very well prepared. The pray-ees didn't know they were being prayed for, and the pray-er's didn't know who they were praying for, except a first name and a general description of the problem. The groups were statistically equal, and relatively large. If I remember [too many bosses whizzing past FTL, Amancio], there were a total of 400 in the study. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 16:46:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08739 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:46:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08727 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27446; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:45:59 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id BAA23554; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:45:47 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971112014546.43531@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:45:46 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: don@PartsNow.com Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com>; from Don Wilde on Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 04:39:45PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 04:39:45PM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > As I remember, the prayer experiment was very well prepared. The > pray-ees didn't know they were being prayed for, and the pray-er's > didn't know who they were praying for, except a first name and a general > description of the problem. The groups were statistically equal, and > relatively large. If I remember [too many bosses whizzing past FTL, > Amancio], there were a total of 400 in the study. Do you remember who conducted it, or at least their general affliction? Size of population group for those praying and being prayed for? Were they in the same group, or so spread out it shouldn't be statistically significant contact between them? Were the study double-blind? Eivind, considering this fairly interesting. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:09:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10762 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10754 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22448; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:09:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022429; Tue Nov 11 18:08:58 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17561; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:08:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120108.SAA17561@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:08:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: don@PartsNow.com, nate@mt.sri.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com In-Reply-To: <199711112248.OAA06592@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Nov 11, 97 02:48:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Actually, I have a simpler question how can anyone describe > singularity -- where the laws of physics as we now today > breakdown. Assuming of course that black holes and singularity > exists.... A black hole is not a singularity, per se, except for the idea that that ds/dt goes to zero at the Schwartzchild Radius (which is inside the event horizon). If you think about it, once the escape velocity is the speed of light, then the Lorentz Transformation implies that all matter falling into the hole will cease experiencing time at that point. If it can't experience time, it can't experience velocity. The amount of time that would have to necessarily pass for it to reach this point exceeds by O(1) infinity the age of the universe. So technically, nothing has ever fallen *into* a "black hole" ...yet. 8-). Actually, it's no more nonsensical to think of pair anihillation in a black hole than it is to think of pair production at the edge of the event horizon (as we believe is happening at Cygnus XI). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:10:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10905 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10890 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:10:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA25670; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:08:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma025661; Tue, 11 Nov 97 10:07:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3469016D.476@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:07:57 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> <19971112014546.43531@bitbox.follo.net> <3468FC87.37A3@PartsNow.com> <19971112015142.59924@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Cardiologist Randolph Byrd at San Francisco General Hospital performed a double blind study of patients in that hospital's > cardiac care unit. Patients were randomly assigned to one of two groups ... those receiving intercessory prayer by committed > Christians unknown to them and those not receiving intercessory prayer. Neither patient, physician, nor hospital staff knew > the group to which a given patient belonged. Those being prayed for had fewer cases of congestive heart failure, fewer > cardiopulmonary arrests, and fewer cases of pneumonia. This was the study I was referring to. I'll find you more. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:10:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10920 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:10:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10894 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:10:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16520; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:10:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd016510; Tue Nov 11 18:10:12 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17635; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:10:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120110.SAA17635@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: don@PartsNow.com Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:10:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3468CE57.4827@PartsNow.com> from "Don Wilde" at Nov 11, 97 01:29:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ... and our good friend Godel proved that there MUST exist something > outside of a universe in order to define said universe. If there does in > fact exist something outside of the universe, then science -- which by > definition operates according to the rules of the universe -- can't > completely explain said outside thing's behavior. This doesn't answer > the creation question or the faith question, but it does prove that > science will never be able to explain everything. So, you've somehow *proven* Godel's _Theorem_?!? Do tell... 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:14:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11335 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:14:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11309 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27793; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:14:10 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA23783; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:14:08 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971112021408.64619@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:14:08 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Nate Williams Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120011.RAA19556@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <199711120011.RAA19556@rocky.mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 05:11:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Eivind Eklund] >> I disagree that humans are a non-predictable system. There is chaos, >> sure, but there are clearly predictable properties. Which information >> people have is one; health is another. (Discussed below) [Nate Williams] > I see no predictability in humans behavior, and the arguements against > the existance of God/god is defined by his behavior towards man, or in > particular one person's ability to 'predict the future' in a controlled > setting. NO predictability? I see a definite statistic predictability; e.g, I can predict the likelihood that you're going to answer more messages based on the number of messages you've answered before. It isn't an exact prediction, but I can predict that SOMEBODY is going to answer post a message to the freebsd-hackers list in the next week with (so far) 100% reliability. That's human behavior, too :-) I can predict that you're either going to eat food within the next six months unless you die. That's a prediction on your personal behavior. > Exactly my point. You cannot make sort of hypothesis that can > accurately define 'human behavior', since it's a chaotic system. > There's a great Dilbert cartoon to this effect. :) If you mean accurately predict how a single human is going to behave; sure. Same goes for groups. But I can predict quite a bit of statistics with fairly high reliability - that's what insurance companies is living off. > > I've not said they don't exist - I'm just saying I've never seen any > > data that I need to resort to a God to be able to explain. > > Your need (or lack thereof) for God isn't the point, the point is that > the possibility of the existance of God isn't dependant on scientific or > statistical evidence. Then we agree on what you define as the point :-) What I was discussing was what kind of evidence is present, and whether that was something that made the existence of God a more likely hypothesis. > And that there are certain things in our life where 'science' will > ultimately fail us. It can take us a long way, but at a certain point > the vehicle that is 'science' is inherently limited to understanding > things that are finite and predictable. When the things being studied > is neither finite nor predictable, science will fail. It doesn't mean > that science is useless, far from it. But, realizing that it isn't > doesn't contain the 'explanation' for everything is important. Science doesn't give "explanations" - it gives hypotheses for how the world operate, and do predictions based on those hypotheses. That's what science is, and that is all science is. Its main point is stopping us from deluding ourselves by keeping our 'pet theories' - we verify everything against the world, and if the map (our hypothesis) doesn't match the terrain (the world), then our map is wrong. If you have a hypothesis that doesn't affect the world in a way that we can sense, even with instruments of any imaginable precision, then you have a null-hypothesis - it can't be verified, and can't be proven false. It is outside the realm of science. Personally, I automatically discard null-hypotheses - they are interesting ways of playing with thought, but they don't actually tell me anything. > > If you mean that there are things we can't use science to investigate, > > but should believe in anyway because we were told about it as kids and > > people claim non-verifiable 'experiences' - then I don't agree. > > So, if it's not scientifically provable, then it's doesn't exist? That's more or less what I'm living after, yes. > I get the impression that many of the 'anti-religious' people somehow > get the mistaken impression that somehow religion is based on childish > notions, and that any adult with a belief in the scientific process > can't be expected to have religious beliefs and still be sane. "Sane" is a relative term. My guess/feeling is that people with religious beliefs probably are (on average) more stable and lead better lives than the ones without them, if all other things are equal. That doesn't mean I'm willing to accept God as a rational explantation; however, I'm not willing to consider entertaining an irrational belief with strong reinforcement properties as insanity. Then everybody would be insane. > Sciene and Faith are at odds *only* for those things which Science > cannot explain due to lack of understand *all* of the issues in science, > or due to it's inherent limitations as discuseed above. But that > doesn't mean a scientist must refuse to acknowledge that something > exists because science cannot explain it, or quantify it. And neither does it mean (s)he must acknowledge it. It is a pure belief. > As you pointed out above, you've had experiences in your life that you > cannot fully explain, but have hypothesis for them. I have emotions I cannot explain all the time. Heck, I can't even explain being conscious :-) That doesn't mean I consider this to be some form of supernatural phenomena :-) > Even in your rebuttal of the 'prayer changing things' you bring up > something that is just as 'non-scientific' as telepathy, which is > also something that is completely un-quantifiable. Your 'Faith' > that telepathy exists is greater than your 'Faith' that God exists, > but you have faith none-the-less. :) I don't believe in telepathy as-of-yet. I just find it an easier pill to swallow than something that must by definition _also_ include an unknown mode of communication, which is what telepathy would be. Call it the 'smaller hypothesis'. And I can't see how telepathy would need to be completely un-quantifiable? I can see scores of ways to quantify it, and probably measure it if it do exist. The fact that it hasn't been shown in a repeatable experiment yet seems to show that it (if it indeed exists) is fairly elusive, though. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:15:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11404 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:15:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11371 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:14:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA25761; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:12:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma025755; Tue, 11 Nov 97 10:12:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3469027E.7829@PartsNow.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:12:30 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> <19971112014546.43531@bitbox.follo.net> <3468FC87.37A3@PartsNow.com> <19971112015142.59924@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > http://www.healthy.net/library/articles/danredwood/visual.htm here's another take on it, although the guy's brain appears bent towards mush... :) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:44:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14623 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:44:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14618 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:44:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05359; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:44:51 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA00512; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:44:48 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:44:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120144.SAA00512@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Eivind Eklund Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Religious ideals (was Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal)) In-Reply-To: <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If we should at all consider God as something to have as part of a > scientific world-view A belief in God transcends the scientific world-view, so limiting him to that simple model is bogus. > whether to believe in Him is a purely personal question - there is > nothing in the world to indicate that He exists. That the world exists is certainly existance that he could existance. Where do you come from? What is your purpose in life? Those kinds of questions science cannot come up with very good answers (most 'theories' are in fact just that, theories based on limited understanding and knowledge based on many assumptions.) > I'm not denying anybody's faith - I'm just saying that unless it can > be used to create better predictions of the world, it is purely that - > faith. No one's arguing that faith isn't necessary for belief in God. > Predictions is the only form of evidence that exists, for all > of science, and all of our (true) perception. Not true. Faith can also create 'true' perception as well, if you 'believe'. :) What is 'Truth'. Is truth based on your perception, or on what actually happens? > The belief in God is likely to go outside proof Right, you're using a finite model to describe an infinite being. > ... which leaves us with the existence of God and mass psychosis being > equally likely from the evidence of our senses, and mass psychosis > explaining MORE, as it include all religions ;-) That's right. Anything I don't understand or have a scientific explanation for can be 'waved away' as personal problems an individual has. When in doubt, claim that they had an abused childhood or misinformed parents. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:49:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15040 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:49:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15032 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:49:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20351; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:49:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd020338; Tue Nov 11 18:49:18 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19930; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:49:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120149.SAA19930@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:49:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, perhaps@yes.no, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Nov 12, 97 00:39:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > predictable. Asking for 'scientific' provable information from human > > beings, let alone God (or gods) is asking for a chaotic system to become > > non-chaotic. > > I disagree that humans are a non-predictable system. There is chaos, > sure, but there are clearly predictable properties. Which information > people have is one; health is another. (Discussed below) The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems into predictable systems. The only thing that chaos truly describes is that for which we have yet to derive a predictive model. Plague propagation used to be called "chaotic". Now we know that it's not, etc.. > There is a couple of cases where you even can't use statistics: Where > your measurement will impact the experiment so much that the result > won't be valid, Observer effect is overrated, ever since Schrodinger's Cat linked a quantum event to a macrocosmic event. It was a Gendanken Experiment. The only thing the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states is that you can not know both the position and momentum of an electron at the same time within h-bar/2 (the significance of this is that for events occurring in under one Planck Length, all known conservation laws (*not* all *physical* laws) may be ignored. Such events are still subject to statistical prediction; if they were not, we wouldn't know the shape of electron orbitals, and we wouldn't have an explanation for electron tunneling, etc.. 8-). > and the case where it is too expensive to create an experiment. Yes. If you ware willing to give me 7 ten ton masses, and let me put six at one end of the solar system such that they describe the largest number of three point planes it's possible for them to describe (ie: place them in a squared Spiral Of Archimedes), and then accellerate the other one from one side to the other to a significant fraction of the speed of light, so that it's path intersected the intersection of two of the planes and intersected a third at a place where it did *not* intersect with another plane, and you let me have mututal optical interferometry between the six so I could know ther relativistically invariant spacial seperation, I could tell you *definitively*, once and for all, whether Einstein was right or wrong about gravity and its speed of propagation. Currently, I have to believe he's wrong, since no one has detected a gravity wave yet... nevertheless, his work remains a useful approximation. ;-). > I've not said they don't exist - I'm just saying I've never seen any > data that I need to resort to a God to be able to explain. Thus I > choose what I consider the simpler hypothesis - that there isn't any. > This is not something I'm 100% fixed on - it is just my present > hypothesis. I'd change my hypothesis come data to the contrary. This is the position of Occam's Razor and the scientific method as well: do not accept without evidence, and do not dismiss without evidence to the contrary. You've got to enjoy anything that can reliably result in light bulbs, 10 times out of 10. 8-). > This is interesting. I'd need more information about the experiment > before I could say anything about it - what immediately pop up as > things that would need to be checked is > > Was this done as a proper double-blind study? Heh. The first question in my mind, as well. How many prayers were directed at rooms containing cardiac training dummies? How did you get the families of the non-test subjects to not pray for them, and thus damage the experiment? 8-) 8-). > If all of those were answered to my satisfaction, and preferably the > same results were replicated by researchers with different biases, I'd > say the results are significant. However, my first hunch wouldn't be > that the results indicate that there is a god - my first hunch would > be that they indicate working telepathy and through that, placebo > effect. It would still be a significant result. Well, that *would* be the simpler explanation. 8-). At that point, I'd design experiments based on language barriers between the pray-er's and the pray-ee's (is it still effective if people who speak only Chinese pray for someone who only speaks English? Are some languages better to pray in?), and on the religion of the pary-er's (is it better to have 10 Catholics pray for you, or 6 Jehovah's witnesses, 2 Protestants, a Rabbi, and a Scientologist?), their prior association (ie: can I recruit any 10 Baptists, or do they have to be Baptists who all attend the same church?), their "religiousness", as measured by the tenets of their faith (do Mormons who drink coffee have a higher or lower success rate than those who don't? What if you give them a placebo instead of real coffee?), and their position (can I get the same effect from one priest that I get from 3 parishoners?). And so on. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:51:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15233 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:51:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15217 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:51:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from giffuni.inteng.com ([168.176.3.32]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA20555; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:54:05 +0500 Message-ID: <34690A37.236C9A1B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:45:27 +0000 From: "Pedro Giffuni S." Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > > > I would consider the predictive part interesting...If you know you will > > die betrayed and you will go to hell, but you can't avoid it...why > > should you want to know in the first place? > > I wouldn't - but that isn't the level of prediction I'm talking about > :-) > Sorry, this wnet out wrong..the predictive part is NOT interesting. By definition if you can avoid something from happening you can't predict it. Sciece can only explain trivial things. Those things that are really important (love, human well being, war, etc...) are always unexplained from a scientific point of view. > > The belief in God is likely to go outside proof - He can't be > disproved, but it seems unlikely that He will be proved anytime soon > :-) > There's an easy way to be convinced of the existance of God (at a personal level, of course). Get yourself possesed and visit an exorcist :-). Seriously speaking, those things happen, and doctors can't really explain them. > > ... which leaves us with the existence of God and mass psychosis being > equally likely from the evidence of our senses, and mass psychosis > explaining MORE, as it include all religions ;-) > The division between science, witchcraft and religion started becoming clear only with Galileo. All seems to show that Galileo believed in God, but not in the Church. IMO that's much the essence of the modern conception. cheers, Pedro. (Why does Jordan's rants always end up in heated irrelevant discussions ? :-) ) > Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 17:53:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15377 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15370 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24425; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:53:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd024413; Tue Nov 11 18:53:20 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA20048; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:53:16 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120153.SAA20048@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: don@PartsNow.com Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:53:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> from "Don Wilde" at Nov 11, 97 04:39:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As I remember, the prayer experiment was very well prepared. The > pray-ees didn't know they were being prayed for, and the pray-er's > didn't know who they were praying for, except a first name and a general > description of the problem. The groups were statistically equal, and > relatively large. If I remember [too many bosses whizzing past FTL, > Amancio], there were a total of 400 in the study. How can you seperate the telepathy theory from the God theory with this set up? The researchers should have lied about the names, or given only number, and/or not stated the symptom(s). They should also have put two guys named "John" with the same disease in the same room, and see if there was preferential healing of one "John", or if if there was 50% of the "prayer effect" split between the two... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:01:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16069 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16034 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:00:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28305; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:00:24 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id DAA23938; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:00:23 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971112030023.06691@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:00:23 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert Cc: don@PartsNow.com, perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> <199711120153.SAA20048@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <199711120153.SAA20048@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 01:53:16AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 01:53:16AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > As I remember, the prayer experiment was very well prepared. The > > pray-ees didn't know they were being prayed for, and the pray-er's > > didn't know who they were praying for, except a first name and a general > > description of the problem. The groups were statistically equal, and > > relatively large. If I remember [too many bosses whizzing past FTL, > > Amancio], there were a total of 400 in the study. > > How can you seperate the telepathy theory from the God theory with this > set up? > > The researchers should have lied about the names, or given only number, > and/or not stated the symptom(s). This one is GOOD. I'd have liked them to pray by number, with the number referencing a random list mapping to names stored in a computer somewhere, and with about half as many numbers as there were people. God is allseeing, rigth? Then the complex mapping should be inconsequential. OTOH, I don't claim to know God's mind (if he exists). He might refuse to participate in such a complex experiment, thinking it shows a lack of faith. Eivind, _not_ attempting to be sarcastic. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:28:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18864 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18852 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:28:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05651; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:28:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01045; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:28:41 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:28:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120228.TAA01045@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: don@partsnow.com, perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120153.SAA20048@usr04.primenet.com> References: <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> <199711120153.SAA20048@usr04.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > As I remember, the prayer experiment was very well prepared. The > > pray-ees didn't know they were being prayed for, and the pray-er's > > didn't know who they were praying for, except a first name and a general > > description of the problem. The groups were statistically equal, and > > relatively large. If I remember [too many bosses whizzing past FTL, > > Amancio], there were a total of 400 in the study. > > How can you seperate the telepathy theory from the God theory with this > set up? > > The researchers should have lied about the names, or given only number, > and/or not stated the symptom(s). In my feeble mind, I remeber that the only information given was a 'pseudo-name' (to make it somewhat more personal), and the symptoms were given in order to have the prayers be 'specific'. > They should also have put two guys named "John" with the same disease > in the same room, and see if there was preferential healing of one > "John", or if if there was 50% of the "prayer effect" split between > the two... Yeah, I'm sure they had the ability to pick and choose among all sorts of dieseases and such to make it a truly effective test (NOT!). Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:29:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18917 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:29:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18912 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:29:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05626; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:25:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01027; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:25:24 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:25:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120225.TAA01027@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Nate Williams , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <19971112021408.64619@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120011.RAA19556@rocky.mt.sri.com> <19971112021408.64619@bitbox.follo.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Nate Williams] > > I see no predictability in humans behavior, and the arguements against > > the existance of God/god is defined by his behavior towards man, or in > > particular one person's ability to 'predict the future' in a controlled > > setting. > > NO predictability? I see a definite statistic predictability; e.g, I > can predict the likelihood that you're going to answer more messages > based on the number of messages you've answered before. Not necessarily so, since I may give up in frustration and all of you to my mail forwarder so I'm not bothered by it. Seriously, humans are fickle beings. > It isn't an exact prediction, but I can predict that SOMEBODY is going > to answer post a message to the freebsd-hackers list in the next week > with (so far) 100% reliability. That's human behavior, too :-) Actually, depending on the question, it may go totally unanswered if the person/people capable of answering doesn't care, is too busy, or are annoyed. You can't depend on human behavior. > I can predict that you're either going to eat food within the next six > months unless you die. That's a prediction on your personal behavior. Now you're being silly. I don't consider 'eating' a behavior, since it's a requirment. Bet you can't predict what I'm going to eat in the next 6 months based on my previous diet. > I don't believe in telepathy as-of-yet. I just find it an easier pill > to swallow than something that must by definition _also_ include an > unknown mode of communication, which is what telepathy would be. Call > it the 'smaller hypothesis'. Why is it smaller? > And I can't see how telepathy would need to be completely > un-quantifiable? I can see scores of ways to quantify it, and > probably measure it if it do exist. The fact that it hasn't been > shown in a repeatable experiment yet seems to show that it (if it > indeed exists) is fairly elusive, though. In the same manner as the existance of God, yes. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:31:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19256 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:31:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19249 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:31:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00780; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:26:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:26:06 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Eivind Eklund cc: Nate Williams , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > There are also things that are completely beyond the realm of scientific > > understanding as well, that cannot be 'explained away'. For example, a > > recent "scientific" study on 'prayer' was given. There were two groups [...] > > This is interesting. I'd need more information about the experiment > before I could say anything about it - what immediately pop up as > things that would need to be checked is It is interesting, but I'm not sure how much more. I recall also an experiment which showed that plants, when prayed for individually by name, grew better than plants prayed for in a generic manner. Even casting aside any potential statistical holes in these studies, I don't view them as basis for faith in any god. It is possible to debate for perpetuity wether an outside deity is necessary as a basis for our current universe. I think this accomplishes nothing since it will only end-up defining god as that which science cannot explain. I imagine that there are enough people who have enough empirical evidence to make a reasonable argument for the existance of a spirt world. Sufficiently convincing, this evidence could surely be used to build a predictive model. But this should not form a basis for faith in God. Faith in God in not derived from selfish ambition to use God for your own profit. (This is not to say that an empirically demonstrated spirit world cannot be used for personal "profit", and scientific methods may quite well be used to maximize this profit). Faith in God does not come from the use of scientific principles, or even the belief in the existance of some other-worldly forces. Faith in God is a choice one makes. This choice, while possibly supported by any of the above, is made on the basis of one's own experience. I can rationalize and try to explain my faith, but I don't believe I can prove it in such a way that it would transfer itself to any other person. So, let us be clear here; there is nothing to be won in this debate. Even should Nate or someone manage to convince someone that there must exist spirits and gods and demons and gargoyles, nothing has yet been accomplished. Having been convinced that there is more this world than meets the eye, what shall we do? Will we emulate those who already believe in gods and demons? Are those people in some way fundamentally better-off than we are? If so, then we should copy them right now regardless of what we believe. If not, then what would copying them once we believe accomplish? If you should wish to use empirical evidence demonstrating a spirit world for your purposes of profit (which I don't suggest would leave you "fundamentally better-off"), then I can only propose that you look at people who already do this, and ask if that is really what you want to do. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:33:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19499 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:33:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19482 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05659; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:30:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01073; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:30:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:30:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120230.TAA01073@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Terry Lambert , don@partsnow.com, perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <19971112030023.06691@bitbox.follo.net> References: <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> <199711120153.SAA20048@usr04.primenet.com> <19971112030023.06691@bitbox.follo.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Prayer experiment ] > > How can you seperate the telepathy theory from the God theory with this > > set up? > > > > The researchers should have lied about the names, or given only number, > > and/or not stated the symptom(s). > > This one is GOOD. I'd have liked them to pray by number, with the > number referencing a random list mapping to names stored in a computer > somewhere, and with about half as many numbers as there were people. > > God is allseeing, rigth? Then the complex mapping should be > inconsequential. Except to the people who are praying. They don't have the need to feel 'proven', they were merely going along with someone's idea of a test, based on their faith that the experiment would be successful. People are not lab rats, and have minds and feelings. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:39:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20085 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:39:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20076 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05693; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:35:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01108; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:35:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:35:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120235.TAA01108@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: Eivind Eklund , Nate Williams , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: References: <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: [ Good points deleted ] > So, let us be clear here; there is nothing to be won in this > debate. Even should Nate or someone manage to convince someone > that there must exist spirits and gods and demons and gargoyles, > nothing has yet been accomplished. Actually, my point isn't to convince that the existance of spirits as much as to refute the (common) belief that having Faith in something outside of one-self is somehow attributed to being stupid, childish, or naive. My point is that one can be *both* intelligent and scientific, plus have faith in something beyond onself, and that having one doesn't imply the other can not exist. Basically, I believe that science paints one portion of the 'picture' of life, and faith paints another (equally important) part. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:39:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20174 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:39:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20168 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:39:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05712; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:39:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01134; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:39:40 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:39:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120239.TAA01134@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund), nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120149.SAA19930@usr04.primenet.com> References: <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120149.SAA19930@usr04.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > I disagree that humans are a non-predictable system. There is chaos, > > sure, but there are clearly predictable properties. Which information > > people have is one; health is another. (Discussed below) > > The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems > into predictable systems. Now your being way too general. Science is the attempt to 'model' the behavior of complex systems. If you think that 'chaotic' == 'complex' then yes, but some systems are inherently chaotic and can not be modeled. > The only thing that chaos truly describes > is that for which we have yet to derive a predictive model. And some systems are entirely chaotic, and so therefore have *NO* predictive model. Especially systems that involve innovations and unique thought cannot be modeled, since any system which can create something new can easily be proven to not be modeled. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:45:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20923 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20918 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00863; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:43:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tim@ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:43:08 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Don Wilde cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3469016D.476@PartsNow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Don Wilde wrote: > Cardiologist Randolph Byrd at San Francisco General Hospital > performed a double blind study of patients in that hospital's > cardiac care unit. Patients were randomly assigned to one of > two groups ... those receiving intercessory prayer by committed > Christians unknown to them and those not receiving intercessory I would've been more interested had one of the groups recieved prayer from "God-may-exist-since-its-not-proveable- He-doesn't-but-who-knows-who-cares" people. That would've made for an interesting control group. :) For even more fun, we could compare the strength of various gods. :) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:50:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21428 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:50:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21423 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25398; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:50:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd025384; Tue Nov 11 19:50:26 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22221; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:50:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120250.TAA22221@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:50:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19971112021408.64619@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Nov 12, 97 02:14:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I get the impression that many of the 'anti-religious' people somehow > > get the mistaken impression that somehow religion is based on childish > > notions, and that any adult with a belief in the scientific process > > can't be expected to have religious beliefs and still be sane. > > "Sane" is a relative term. My guess/feeling is that people with > religious beliefs probably are (on average) more stable and lead > better lives than the ones without them, if all other things are > equal. Yes. People who subscribe to a well defined memetic complex (any belief system is a memetic complex) are much more likely to stay within a standard deviation of their expectation behaviour. People like this make us happy, because they are predictable (as a group) with a high degree of accuracy). As far as comparative value of memetic complexes of similar orders... I'd rather have someone be a member of the gang "Baptists" than that they be a member of the gang "Bloods", in terms of what I view as negative impact on society. 8-). "Better" is a realtive term; certainly, it's better for those of us who have to live in a society composed of herds of people that subscribe to one complex or another. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 18:55:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21862 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:55:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (pinsoft.internet.co.nz [202.37.141.181] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21852 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:55:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04248 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:56:41 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA24018 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:56:40 +1300 (NZDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:56:40 +1300 (NZDT) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: [snip] > There are also things that are completely beyond the realm of scientific > understanding as well, that cannot be 'explained away'. For example, a > recent "scientific" study on 'prayer' was given. There were two groups > of 'ill/sick' patients, one the control group, the other group needs > were given to a group of people who had no contact with the group, and > the results were astonishing. The people who were prayed for had a > significant better recovery rate than the control group, yet there was > absolutely no contact between any of the members in the entire > 'experiment'. How do you explain that? Bad testing, not a big enough > experiment group, co-incidence, etc...? Not everything can be explained > by scientific reasoning, hence the need for 'FAITH'. This is more probably due to increased recovery rates due to meditative states induced by `prayer-mode' rather than any divine intervention. You'd probably get various anecdotal references by talking to Oriental monks, martial-arts experts, trancendental-meditation advocates, etc. -- Jonathan Chen Once is dumb luck. Twice is coincidence. Three times and Somebody Is Trying To Tell You Something. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 19:09:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23225 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:09:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23220 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:09:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tim@ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00889; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:05:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from tim@ppp6475.on.bellglobal.com) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:05:26 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Eivind Eklund cc: Terry Lambert , don@PartsNow.com, perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <19971112030023.06691@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Eivind Eklund wrote: > OTOH, I don't claim to know God's mind (if he exists). He might > refuse to participate in such a complex experiment, thinking it shows > a lack of faith. You could take that a little bit farther to a Biblical view. "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." [Well, people always seem to think that passages quoted from the KJV are more Biblical, but perhaps the NIV would make the point clearer... ;] "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." Be careful of what one is testing... It may be spiritual, but it may perhaps not be God... But, of course, if we can't test it, then it can't be disproven. Perhaps that is why you can't test it? No. Testing leads to prediction leads to manipulation. The tail shall not wag the dog. Where proof is necessary, proof shall be given (if not always received). "If God makes me win $1 000 000 in the lottery tomorrow, then I will believe in him forever more." [next day] "But only if I win another $1 000 000..." -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 19:46:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25969 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:46:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25960 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA29762; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:45:23 -0800 (PST) To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:25:24 MST." <199711120225.TAA01027@rocky.mt.sri.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:45:23 -0800 Message-ID: <29759.879306323@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm praying that this bizarre thread will end soon in -chat. Hmmm. Doesn't seem to be working so far, so I guess god's either ignoring me or he doesn't exist. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 20:22:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28942 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr03.primenet.com (tlambert@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.6.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28918 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:22:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr03.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr03.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA22382; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:21:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120421.VAA22382@usr03.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:21:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711120239.TAA01134@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 11, 97 07:39:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I disagree that humans are a non-predictable system. There is chaos, > > > sure, but there are clearly predictable properties. Which information > > > people have is one; health is another. (Discussed below) > > > > The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems > > into predictable systems. > > Now your being way too general. Science is the attempt to 'model' the > behavior of complex systems. If you think that 'chaotic' == 'complex' > then yes, but some systems are inherently chaotic and can not be > modeled. "Perfectly Random" doesn't exist. Mostly because not only time and energy is quantized, but because space is quantized, as well. > > The only thing that chaos truly describes > > is that for which we have yet to derive a predictive model. > > And some systems are entirely chaotic, and so therefore have *NO* > predictive model. You're free to subscribe to this belief, but all of the empirical evidence I've seen contradicts you. 8-). > Especially systems that involve innovations and unique thought > cannot be modeled, since any system which can create something new > can easily be proven to not be modeled. So it's impossible to build an artificial intelligence? Now you are arguing for the existance of something outside the self that makes humans unique from their underlying atom-based finite state automatons, such that constructing a similar automaton is impossible. I have a hard time accepting that without evidence. I hypothesize that the only thing that makes a human being unique is locality of self. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 20:22:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28955 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:22:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (xtal79.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28900 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:22:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA17039 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:22:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:22:24 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Public service posting Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk .procmailrc ----cut here---- :0: * ^Sender:.*owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG * ^Subject:.*Newest Pentium bug (fatal) /dev/null ----cut here---- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 20:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29761 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr03.primenet.com (tlambert@usr03.primenet.com [206.165.6.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29741 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:30:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr03.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr03.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA22655; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:29:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120429.VAA22655@usr03.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: eivind@bitbox.follo.net (Eivind Eklund) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:29:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, don@PartsNow.com, perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19971112030023.06691@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Nov 12, 97 03:00:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > How can you seperate the telepathy theory from the God theory with this > > set up? > > > > The researchers should have lied about the names, or given only number, > > and/or not stated the symptom(s). > > This one is GOOD. I'd have liked them to pray by number, with the > number referencing a random list mapping to names stored in a computer > somewhere, and with about half as many numbers as there were people. > > God is allseeing, rigth? Then the complex mapping should be > inconsequential. Well, that's the problem. You haven't really seperated the theories with this particular test. I should probably define my test more rigorously, but frankly, without the results from an initial double blind test as a basis, it's all a Gendanken experiment anyway. You see, whether or not a numeric handle could be translated by God really depends on what concept of God you are talking about. You may be talking about a God who not quite Omnipotetent. It depends on whose definition you are using. The only thing you are really testing is whether or not God is Omnipotent. If the prayer fails to have the effect it had with names, then you haven't disproven God, only Omnipotence; or even the inability to manipulate God with prayer on a consistent basis. 8-). > OTOH, I don't claim to know God's mind (if he exists). He might > refuse to participate in such a complex experiment, thinking it shows > a lack of faith. Or he might be computer phobic. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 20:34:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00211 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from abby.skypoint.net (abby.skypoint.net [199.86.32.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00206 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bruce@zuhause.mn.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by abby.skypoint.net (8.8.7/jl 1.3) with UUCP id WAA01761 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:33:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from bruce@localhost) by zuhause.mn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19960; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:29:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:29:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711120429.WAA19960@zuhause.mn.org> From: Bruce Albrecht To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? In-Reply-To: References: <000701bce570$9ed09960$0100a8c0@einstein.cybersurf.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "New York" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry to restart this thread, but I was wondering if any of the WMs other than olvwm support pushtack in the frame menu so that pop-up windows stick around after one clicks on the "OK" (or whatever) button that normally causes the window to go away. I'm not all that fond of olvwm, but that's one thing I liked about it. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 21:17:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06464 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:17:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06454 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:17:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jandrese@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA05059; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from jandrese.async.vt.edu (jandrese.async.vt.edu [128.173.19.77]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA26798; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:17:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: Jason Andresen X-Sender: jandrese@jandrese.async.vt.edu To: Bruce Albrecht cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? In-Reply-To: <199711120429.WAA19960@zuhause.mn.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Bruce Albrecht wrote: ~~Sorry to restart this thread, but I was wondering if any of the WMs ~~other than olvwm support pushtack in the frame menu so that pop-up ~~windows stick around after one clicks on the "OK" (or whatever) button ~~that normally causes the window to go away. I'm not all that fond of ~~olvwm, but that's one thing I liked about it. ~~ WindowMaker has this for the menus, ala NeXT sticky menus. I'm not sure if this is similar to the "frame" menu as I've never used olvwm myself. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::. . . . . ..:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :: Jason Andresen :. . . . . . . . . : Turbocharge your PC :: :: jandrese@vt.edu :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:: www.FreeBSD.org :: :.........................: Quote of the day :..........................: Condense soup, not books! :::::::::::.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.........................:.:.:.:.:.:.:.::::::::::: From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 21:19:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06792 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:19:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebsd.ntu.edu.tw (freebsd.ntu.edu.tw [140.112.1.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06705 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:19:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw) From: woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw Received: (qmail 4549 invoked by uid 9999); 12 Nov 1997 05:19:33 -0000 Date: 12 Nov 1997 05:19:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19971112051933.4548.qmail@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw> Reply-To: woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD CDROMs in Taiwan (forwarded) X-Disclaimer: FreeBSD ­Ñ¼Ö³¡¹ï¥»«H¤º®e®¤¤£­t³d¡C Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Forwarded from news://news.csie.nctu.edu.tw/tw.bbs.comp.386bsd Sorry for the attaced two files still in their original-form -- "Chinese BIG5 charset." Those files include detail info of how to access "official WC FreeBSD CD" in Taiwan. Best regards, woju ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- yilee@pony.pdd.iii.org.tw (Yi Lee) wrote: : Sound (woju@freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw) wrote: : : Could those who have used "official WC FreeBSD CD" say something : : about it please? Why you like it, for what feature? : 1. It's official. : 2. It's self-contained. (eg. live file system, ports, packages) : 3. I can contribute my 2 cents directly by purchasing WC CDROM. : The importance to me is: 3 > 2 > 1. I know how to burn my own FreeBSD : CD-ROM, I know how to build packages, but, for those who are not good at : hacking FreeBSD code like me, purchasing WC CDROM, IMHO, is one of the best : (and most direct) ways to contribute to the FreeBSD community. : It's also the same reason why I'll buy Official RedHat Linux CD-ROM. Thank yilee for these valuable info. And from these info, woju know how to make "better(proper)" HopeNet(Taiwan)-FreeBSD-CD set :-) i can put more "official" information in the CD, introduce how to get "official FreeBSD CD." HopeNet-FreeBSD-CD acts as locale(Taiwan), eazy- access, cheapter, but not-so-complete FreeBSD CD set, it helps(hopely) more Taiwan people know that, there exists such excellent Free-OS -- FreeBSD. There are already lots of people in Taiwan know Linux; and now, there is a good chance make FreeBSD popular -- via HopeNet-FreeBSD-CD. More people would feel the Power of FreeBSD, eager to know more about it, and they can purchase the "Official Walnut Creek FreeBSD CD set" for "more- COMPLETE FreeBSD." And eventually, maybe it would become a "common sence", "Think of Powerful internet Server, think of FreeBSD!" : BTW, is there any vendor in Taiwan who carries official FBSD 2.2.5 CD-ROM? Yes, two files are attached. There are detail info in those two files explaining how to access "official FreeBSD CD", although somewhat out-dated. For those who know what is FreeBSD and like it, you are encouraged to purchase "official FreeBSD CD". There are MANY good reasons for this, some of them just like the reasons yilee listed above. For more info, see the attached files. For those who don't know what is FreeBSD well (in Taiwan), you can try HopeNet-FreeBSD-CD. There are some simple Chinese-BIG5 notes help you easily enter the wonderful FreeBSD-world. For more info: telnet freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw select the "bsd-cdrom" board(local newsgroup). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ µo«H¤H: Al Lin , ¬ÝªO: Linux ¼Ð ÃD: Walnut Creek¥úºÐ!Linux Slackware 3.3(4 CDs), FreeBSD 2.2.2(2 CDs) µo«H¯¸: Extra Vision INT'L Corp. (Mon Oct 13 10:23:43 1997) Âà«H¯¸: fromzero!netnews.ntu!news.mcu!news.cs.nthu!news.csie.nctu!news.nctu!se ¶W®É¥N¸ê°T¥N²zWalnut Creek CDROM¥þ¨t¦C¥úºÐ, ¥H³ÌÀu´fªº»ù®æ´£¨Ñ³Ì¦n³Ì§Ö³tªºªA°Èµ¹¦U¦ì. Walnut Creek CDROM»ù¥Øªí¡]¶W®É¥N¸ê°T¥N²z¡^ ************­q»ù¬Ò¥]§t±¾¸¹¶l±H¶O¥Î¤Î 5% Àç·~µ|************ ************­q»ù¬Ò¥]§t±¾¸¹¶l±H¶O¥Î¤Î 5% Àç·~µ|************ ************­q»ù¬Ò¥]§t±¾¸¹¶l±H¶O¥Î¤Î 5% Àç·~µ|************ ªþµù¡G¼Æ¦rªí¥ÜCD-ROM±i¼Æ Bªí¥Ü¥DÅ鬰®ÑÄy b ªí¥Üªþ®Ñ ¥úºÐ¦WºÙ ©w»ù ªþµù -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- §@·~¨t²Î -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- FreeBSD 2.2.2 1000 2CD The Complete FreeBSD Book with FreeBSD 2.2.2 1400 B&2CD Linux Slackware 3.3 800 4CD Turbo Linux: Red Hat 4.2 750 2CD Linux Complete Reference(97¦~³Ì·sª©, 2000¾l­¶) 1250 B MkLinux DR 2.1 750 2CD Linux Installation & Getting Started Book 800 B&1CD Debian/F 800 -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- µ{¦¡³]­p -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- Perl 1000 GNU Distribution 1000 C/C++ Users Group Library 1200 4.4 BSD Lite 2 1000 Delphi 1000 Sys V r4 Unix Tools 1500 X11R6 1000 2CD -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- Shareware(¦@¨É³nÅé) -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- CICA for Windows 550 2CD CICA for NT 1000 Hobbes OS/2 550 2CD Science & Technical Library 1000 Ultra-Mac Utils 1000 Ultra-Mac Office 1000 -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- ±Ð¨|³nÅé -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- QRZ! Ham Radio Volume 9 600 Internet Info 750 Home Education Library 1000 Space and Astronomy 750 Spider 750 Welcome to Africa 600 Welcome to Thailand 600 NASA Engineering FORTRAN source(¦@¦³¥|ºØ) 1000 -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- ¹CÀ¸¤Î¥ð¶¢³nÅé -------------------------------------------- ---- ---- Toolkit for Red Alert 600 Jolt Games 850 Toolkit for Quake (2nd Edition) 600 Toolkit for Command & Conquer/Warcraft 2 600 Toolkit for Civilization 2 600 Toolkit for Duke 3D 600 Gamehead 450 Game Patches 600 Mac Games 3 750 Screensavers 600 Doom Toolkit 600 ¹º¼·±b¤á¡G¶W®É¥N¸ê°TªÑ¥÷¦³­­¤½¥q ¹º¼·±b¸¹¡G17525557 ¦a §}¡G¥_¿¤·s²ø¥«¤­¤u¤T¸ô88¸¹2¼Ó ºô¸ô¦ì§}¡Ghttp://www.ev.com.tw »sªí¤é´Á:1997.05.29 ¹q¸Ü¡G(02)298-0162 ¶Ç¯u¡G(02)298-8495 * ´£¨Ñ«H¥Î¥d­qÁʪA°È¡C * ºØÃþÁc¦h¤£¤Î³Æ¸ü¡AÅwªï¤Wºô¬d¸ß¸Ô²Ó¤¶²Ð¡C ÁÙ¦³¨ä¥Lªñ¦ÊºØTitle, Åwªï¤Wºô¬d¸ß³Ì·s¸ê®Æ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ µo«H¤H: chous@ms1.hinet.net (Henry), ¬ÝªO: 386BSD ¼Ð ÃD: ¥úºÐª© FreeBSD 2.1.7 --- ¤[µ¥¤F! µo«H¯¸: DCI HiNet (Mon Apr 7 11:06:42 1997) Âà«H¯¸: sobee!netnews.ntu!spring!serv.hinet.net!netnews.hinet.net!ms1!chous ****** Official!! ¥¿©v!! Official!! ¥¿©v!! Official!! ****** <<< Turning PCs into Workstations. >>> FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE ** ¢±¤ù¸Ë ** FreeBSD 2.1.7 Åý±zªº Internet server ¦b¨I­«ªº­t¸ü¤U, ¬° user »P À³¥Îµ{¦¡, ´£¨Ñ¤@­Óí©wªº°ª®Ä¯à§@·~Àô¹Ò. ¬O±z°ª¶¥¦øªA¾¹ªºµ´¨Î¿ï¾Ü! ¦b±zªá¤U¤j§â¶r²¼ÁʶR°Ó·~ª©ªº Unix ¨t²Î¤§«e, ¦ó¤£¥ý¥H 1/100 ¤£¨ìªº¥N »ù, ¸Õ¸Õ FreeBSD? ¡i¬°¦ó¿ï¾Ü FreeBSD? ¡j FreeBSD ¬O·½¦Û©ó ¥[¦{¬f§JµÜ¤j¾Ç©Òµo®iªº 4.4 BSD §@·~¨t²Î. ¦b¦¨­û ªº§V¤O¤§¤U, ¦Û 1993 ¦~³o­Ó­p¹º¶}©l«á, ¦bµuµu¼Æ¦~¤§¶¡, §ë¤J¤F¤j¶qªº®É ¶¡»P¤ß¤O, ¨Ï¥¦µL½×¦b®Ä¯à»Pí©w«×¤W, ³£¦³¤F¨ô¶Vªº¦¨´N. ·í³\¦h¤j«¬ªº°Ó ·~³nÅ餽¥q¥¿§ë¤J¤j¶qªº¤H¤O»P°]¤O, ¥H´£¤É¨ä PC §@·~¨t²Î²£«~ªº®Ä¯à»Pí ©w©Ê®É, FreeBSD ¦­¦bµ¥µÛ±z¨ÓÅéÅç! FreeBSD ´£¨Ñ±z³\¦h¹L¥h¥u¯à¦b©ù¶Qªº¤u§@¯¸¯Å¥H¤W¾÷¾¹¤~¦³ªº¥\¯à, Åý ±zªº PC ·n¨­¤@Åܦ¨¬°¤@¥x Unix ¤u§@¯¸. FreeBSD ¬O¥Ñ¤@¸s development team ¦¨­û, ¦³¨t²Î¦a´x´¤¨ä¬ãµo¡Bª©¥» ªº§ó·s. ¹ï©óÂÔ·Vªº¥Î¤á, ¦p¥ø·~µ¥, ¥i¦]¦ÓµL»Ý¾á¤ß·|¹³ Linux ¯ë¸û¡uº© µL²Õ´¡vªºµo®i±¡§Î. ¦A¥[¤W¾ã­Ó¨t²Î©Ò¦³ªº source code ¬Ò¤½¶}, ³o·N¨ý µÛ FreeBSD ´£¨Ñ¥R¥÷ªº¼u©Ê, Åý±z¥i 100% ¦a´x´¤±zªº¨t²Î, Åý¨ä§¹¥þ°t¦X ±z¤u§@¤W¡B¥ø·~¤ºªº¥ô°È»Ý¨D. ³o¬O¤j«¬³nÅ餽¥q´X¥GµLªk°µ¨ìªº! "Official" ª© FreeBSD CDROM ªº¥Xª©°Ó, Walnut Creek, ¦­¦b 1993 ¦~ FreeBSD ­p¹ºªº¦¨¥\»P§_ÁÙ¦b¥¼©w¤§¤Ñªº®É­Ô, «K¶}©l¤ä´© FreeBSD project. °£¤F¥H CDROM ¤è¦¡µo¦æ, Åý§ó¦hµLªk¤W Internet ªº¤H¤]¯à¨Ï¥Î¨ì FreeBSD ¥~, ¨Ã´£¨Ñ FreeBSD project ¾÷¾¹»P§Ö³tªººô¸ô³s½u. Walnut Creek ¨Ã¥R ¥÷¦a«H¥ô FreeBSD, »P¨ä¤@¦P¦¨ªø, ¦p¤µ¸Ó¤½¥qªº ftp server [ftp.cdrom.com] ¨Ï¥Î: * §@·~¨t²Î: FreeBSD 2.1.7 * ¥D¾÷: Intel "Alder" SMP ¥D¾÷ªO (Orion chipset), ¤¤¥¡³B²z¾¹¬° Pentium ¢Þro 150Mhz, °t³Æ ¢´12MB RAM (60ns). * ¤T±i Adaptec AHA2940 SCSI ±±¨î¥d. * ¼Æ¤Q¥x°ª®e¶q SCSI-II µwºÐ, ¦@¦³ 106 GB ªº¸ê®Æ. * SMC 9332 (DC21140 based) PCI 100 Mbps Fast Ethernet ºô¸ô¥d. * ¥H 100 Mbps ªº½u¸ô»P Internet ¬Û³s. (TANet ªº¥D·F¥ç¶È 6 Mbps) ¥i¦P®É¹ï 1600 ¦W user ´£¨ÑÀɮפU¸üªA°È, ¨C­Ó¤ë±q¥@¬É¦U¦a³s½u¶ÇÀɪº ¸ê®Æ¶q¶W¹L 1 TB (1 TeraByte = 1024 GB). ¬Oªñ¤@¦~¥b«e, ¯Ã¬ù®É³ø¹ï¸Ó ¤½¥qªº³ø¾É¤¤©Ò¤Þ¥Îªº¼Æ¾Úªº ¤­­¿ ¥H¤W. ¤w¸g½T¥ß¨ä¥þ¥@¬É³Ì¤jªº ftp server ¤§¦a¦ì. §ó¦hªº¥ø·~¡B²Õ´, ¤]¶}©l±Ä¥Î FreeBSD ¬°¨ä§@·~¨t²Î, ±z«ç¥i¿ù¹L? :) ps. ­Y¦³°ê¤ºªº¾Ç®Õ¡B¥ø·~¡B¹ÎÅé¨Ì¿à FreeBSD ¬°¨ä§@·~¨t²ÎªÌ, Åwªï »P§Ú­ÌÁpµ¸; ­YÄ@·N´£¨Ñ¶Q³æ¦ì¨Ï¥Î FreeBSD ¤§¸gÅç¤Î¨t²Î²ÕºA¥H ¨Ñ³ø¾É, §Ú­Ì§ó¬OºÜ¸ÛÅwªï! ¡i¦³Ô£·s¥\¯à? ¡j 2.1.7 ª©ªº¤º®e, ¥D­n¬O­×¥¿ user ¦^À³ªº bug¡B¨t²Î¦w¥þº|¬}ªº­×¸É¡B ¥[±j¦w¸Ëµ{¦¡ (sysinstall) ¹ï DOS Àɮרt²Îªº³B²z, ¤Î·s¼W¤@¨Ç device driver, ¦p Adaptec AIC7850 on-board SCSI, Intel ªº EtherExpress Pro/100MBps PCI ºô¸ô¥d, 3COM ªº 3C590¡B3C595 ºô¸ô¥d, CDR ¿N¿ý¾÷µ¥µ¥. ¦b VM ¤W¤]°µ¤F³\¦hªº¥[±j»P­×¥¿, ¨Ï 5 MB °O¾ÐÅéÀô¹Ò¤U¤§°õ¦æ³t«×, ¤wÅý ¤H¸û¯à±µ¨ü. §ó´£¨Ñ CCD (Concatenated Disk Driver), ¥Î³nÅé¼ÒÀÀ RAID, ¤j´T´£¤É SCSI µwºÐªº¨Ï¥Î®Ä²v. Linux »P SCO ªº¼ÒÀÀ, ¤w°µ¨ì¯àÅý±z¦b FreeBSD ¤U¶¶§Q°õ¦æSCO ª©ªº Oracle, ¤Î Linux ª©ªº Netscape (¤ä´© Java), ¬Æ¦Ü Linux ª©ªº Quake! ¦³¿³½ìªºªB¤Í, ¥ç¥i°Ñ¦Ò http://www.freebsd.org/branch.html, ±oª¾ 2.1.7 ª©¡B2.2-STABLE ©M¥¿¦bµo®i¤¤ªº 3.0-CURRENT ¦³¨º¨Ç¥\¯à¤Wªº®t²§. ¡i¦³¨º¨Ç³nÅé? ¡j §¹¾ãªº¶}µoÀô¹Ò: GNU C/C++ compiler, GDB debugger, PERL, Tcl, scheme, logo, forth, basic, ICON ¤Î GNU emacs. ºô¸ô¤u¨ã: BSD-style ªº telnet, ftp, http, whois, nslookup, rlogin µ¥, ¼Ð·Çªº mail/news reader, ¦p elm, pine, tin, trn µ¥, ¤ä´© PPP/SLIP ¨ó©w, ¥ç¥]§t gopher, WAIS, archie ¨t²Î ¦C¦L³nÅé: ¥]¬A TeX 3.14, ghostscript, Hylafax ¤Î AFM fonts µøµ¡¨t²Î: PC ¤Wªº¼Ð·Ç X-Window (XFree86) 3.2, ¦U¦¡ window manager (¦p fvwm95, olvwm, mwm, afterstep µ¥), TCL/Tk, Xaw3d, xjpeg µ¥ ... FreeBSD ¾ã¦X«¬ªº³]­p¤è¦¡, Åý¨Ï¥ÎªÌ¥i¥H¥Ñ¤@­Ó©R¥O§ó·s¾ã­Ó¨t²Î, ±q¦¹ ¤£¥²¾á¤ß¨t²Î¦U­Ó component ª©¥»¤£¤@­Pªº°ÝÃD. ¿W¯Sªº port ¤è¦¡¨Ï±z ´X¥G¤£¥Î§@¥ô¦ó³nÅé¦w¸Ë¤Wªº³]©w. §¹¾ãªº source-tree Åý¨t²Î¤º³¡¹B§@ ¤£¦A¬OÁ¼¤@¯ëªº¶Â²°¤l, ¦pªG±z­n¤@­Óí©wªº§@·~Àô¹Ò, ©Î¤£º¡¨¬©ó³æ¯Âªº Unix ¾Þ§@, FreeBSD ªÖ©w¯à§¹¥þ²Å¦X±zªº»Ý¨D. ¡iµwÅé»Ý¨D¡j ¦w¸Ë FreeBSD 2.1.7 ¤§µwÅé»Ý¨D¦p¤U: * ¦Ü¤Ö 5MB ªº°O¾ÐÅé («Øij 8MB ¥H¤W¬°¨Î) * ¦Ü¤Ö 60 MB ªºµwºÐªÅ¶¡. ¸û§¹¾ãªº¦w¸Ë±N»Ý­n¦Ü¤Ö 340 MB ªºµwºÐ ªÅ¶¡ (¥]¬A­ì©l½X¤Îµo®i¤u¨ã). * ¤W¦Ü Pentium Pro µ¥¯Åªº CPU, ¤U¦Ü 386SX, ¬Ò¦b¤ä´©¤§¦C. µM¦Ó ¨Ã¤£«Øij¥H 386SX ¾÷¾¹°õ¦æ. * ¤ä´©²³¦h ISA, VL, PCI, EISA bus ªº¶gÃä, ¦p: ¥úºÐ¾÷¡B­µ®Ä¥d¡B ¤A¤Óºô¸ô¥d¡BSCSI µ¥¶gÃä. ­Y»Ý§¹¾ãªº¦Cªí, ¥i«ö¥H¤UÁpµ¸¤è¦¡ email ¯Á¨ú. ©Î¦Û¦æ°Ñ¦Ò FreeBSD 2.1.7 ªº¤å¥ó, ¦p Online Handbook, ­^¤åª©ªº announce µ¥µ¥. ¡i»ù®æ¡j ¨â¤ù¸Ë, ¨C®M 970. ¹ï©ó¥xÆWªº FreeBSD 2.1.¢¶ CDROM ¥Î¤á (¥]¬A The Complete FreeBSD ¤@®ÑªºÅªªÌ), §Ú­Ì©Ó¿Õ±N¨Ó 2.2 ªº¥úºÐª©µo¦æ®É (¹w­p¤µ¦~ 5 ¤ëªì), ´£ ¨Ñ¤»§é©Î§ó§Cªº»ù®æ¤É¯Å©Î´«ÁÊ, ±zµL»Ý­W­Wµ¥«Ý 2.2 ¥úºÐª©ªºµo¦æ, ²{¦b ´N¥i¥H¾Ö¦³ FreeBSD ªº±j¤j¥\¯à! ¨C¤@§å³f³£·|¦³³¡¥÷¥úºÐ, ©ó¹B°e¦Ü¥xÆWªº¹Lµ{¤¤, ³y¦¨¥~´ß¤Wªº·å²«. ±H¦^¬ü°ê§ó´«, ¨C®M¬ù¶· 40 ¤¸¥ª¥kªº¹B¶O, ¥~¥[®É¶¡¤Wªº©µ»~. §Ú­Ì±q¤£ ±N³o¼Ëªº¥úºÐ±Hµ¹«È¤á, ¦ý¦pªG±zÄ@·N±µ¨ü¥~´ß¦³·å²«ªº¥úºÐ, ¥i¨Æ¥ý§iª¾ (¹º¼·³æ¤W¡B¶Ç¯u¡BEmail...). «h­Y§Ú­Ì¥¿¦n¦³¥~´ß·å²«ªº¥úºÐ, ¨C®M±N °hµ¹±z 40 ¤¸, Åý±z¯à°÷¦Û¦æÁʶR¡B§ó´«¥úºÐ¥~´ß. ·íµMÅo, °£«D¬O±z¯S §Oµù©ú, §Ú­Ì¤£·|Åý±z®³¨ì¥~´ß¨ü·lªº¥úºÐ, ½Ð©ñ¤ß! ¡i¨ä¥Lªº BSD ¬ÛÃö²£«~¡j Walnut Creek ªº BSD ¬ÛÃö²£«~, ¥]¬A¤F: * "Official" FreeBSD ¥úºÐ * The Complete FreeBSD, by Greg Lehey ªþ§¹¾ãªº "Official" FreeBSD ¥úºÐ. * BSD Docs CDROM * 4.4 BSD Lite * FreeBSD ³Ì·sªº SNAPSHOT * FreeBSD T-Shirt (XL / L / M) * FreeBSD °¨§JªM * FreeBSD ®ü³ø * FreeBSD ¨ë«C¶K¯È ¥t¥~, ­Y±z·Qª¾¹D§ó¦hÃö©ó Walnut Creek ¤½¥q»P¨ä©Ò¥Xª©¤§¨ä¥L²£«~ªº ¸ê°T, ½Ð¥Î¤U¦C¤è¦¡¥t¦æÁpµ¸. ¶È»Ý©ó«H¥ó¼ÐÃDµù©ú¡u¯Á¨ú¥úºÐ¸ê®Æ¡v§Y¥i. ­YÁÙı±o¤£°÷, ½Ð¨Ì¸Ó»¡©ú¤¤ªº¤èªk, ¦A¨Ó«H¯Á¨ú«p¹F 64 ­¶ªº±m¦â«¬¿ý! ¡i¸g¾P°Ó¡j °£¤Fª½±µ»P§Ú­ÌÁpµ¸¤§¥~, ¥Ø«e, ±z¥ç¥i¦b¤U¦C¦aÂI¶R¨ì Official Slackware 96 ¤Î¨ä¥Lªº Walnut Creek ¥úºÐ²£«~, ©ÎªÌ¬O§Ú­Ì©Ò¤Þ¶iªº ¨ä¥L¥Xª©°Ó²£«~! ½¬­Z¸ê°T: ¹q¸Ü: (04) 688-4150~1 ¦a§}: ¥x¤¤¿¤¤j¥ÒÂí«H¸q¸ô¤Q¤T¸¹ Email: sl6xx@luxent.com.tw URL: http://luxent.com.tw ¹º¼·: 22098938, ¤á¦W: §õ»ñ¬w ¸Uºû¸ê°T¤u§@«Ç ¹q¸Ü: (02) 930-8681 ¶Ç¯u: (02) 935-1821 Email: serge@oneway.com.tw ¦a§}: ¥x¥_¥«Ã¹´µºÖ¸ô¤­¬q 187 ¸¹ 3 ¼Ó URL: http://www.oneway.com.tw ±b¤á: ¸­¤pÄ_ 106004516277, ¥xÆW»È¦æ ´°¤Æ¤À¦æ §»°T¹q¸£¸ê°T¼s³õ ¹q¸Ü: (03) 935-2011 ©I¥s¾¹: 070284784 ¦a§}: ©yÄõ¥«´_¿³¸ô¤G¬q29¸¹ (¹A¥Á¶W¥«±×¹ï­±) ¾n®Õ¥Nªí: ¦¨¤j: ¸â¶®¯ø. 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Email: CrazyGuy.bbs@bbs.scu.edu.tw ¥¨À¼®Ñ§½: ±MÀç¦UÃþ²z¤u°ÓºÞ­ì¤å®Ñ, ¤é«e¶}©l¸g¾P Walnut Creek ¥úºÐ, ½Ð ¨Æ¥ý»P©±¤è½T»{±z­nªº²£«~¦³³f, ©Î½Ð¥L­Ì¶i³f«á, ¦A«e©¹ÁʶR. ¹q¸Ü: (02) 331-0940, 383-2952, 331-0985 ¦a§}: ¥x¥_¥«Ãh¹çµó 36 ¸¹ 2 ¼Ó (¼Ó¤U¬° Burger King ³t­¹©±) URL: http://peacock.tnjc.edu.tw/~book/book.html ¹º¼·: 18211041 ¡´ ¥x¨TªF¯¸ ¡´ ¤õ¨®¯¸ ¢w¢w¢w¢s¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢s¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢s¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w ¢x ¢x ¢x ·s ­«¢x ¢xÃh ¢x ¡´ ¥ú ¢w¢w¢w¢q¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢q¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢t ¼¯ ¼y¢x ³¢¡´¢x ¶} «Ê µó ¢x ¤Ñ ¢x ¤¸ ¢x ¢xÀ] ¤j «n¢x ¯q ¢x¹ç ¢x ¼Ó ¢x ¢x ¢x«e ¢w¢w¢w¢q¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢q¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢t ¸ô¢x¡´ ¥¨À¼¡¹¢x º~ ¤f µó ¢x¸ô ¢xªÖ¼w°ò ^^^^^^¢xµó ¢x ¢w¢w¢w¢q¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢w¢t ¢x ¡´°¨¥i§¸Ã¹ ¡¯¡¯ ¨ä¥L¸g¾P°Ó³°Äò¬¢½Í¤¤, ½ÐÀH®É¨Ó«H¸ß°Ý³Ì·sªº¸g¾P°Ó¦Cªí ¡¯¡¯ ¡iÁpµ¸¤è¦¡¡j Email: chous@ms1.hinet.net (Henry Chou) ¶Ç¯u: (02) 729-2551, To: Henry Chou WWW: Äw³Æ¤¤ ¡i°e³f¤è¦¡¡j ¶l¸ê¬Ò«ö¦¸­pºâ, «D³v®M­pºâ, ¯S§O¼á²M:) 1. ¥H¶l§½¤p¥]©Î¥]»q (¬Ò¬°±¾¸¹) ¥æ±H, ½Ð¥~¥[ 80 ¤¸¤§¥]¸Ë¤Î ¹B¶O (¥þ°ê¬ÒµM) 2. ¥H¶l§½§Ö±¶¥æ±H, ¥x¥_¿¤¥«½Ð¥[ 100 ¤¸, ¥x¥_¥H¥~¿¤¥«½Ð¥[ 140 ¤¸¤§¥]¸Ë¤Î¹B¶O. (¦Ü¶l§½¹º¼·®É, ½Ð¤Á°O¥ý¸ß°Ý±zªº©Ò ¦b¦a¬O§_¦³´£¨Ñ§Ö±¶ªA°È.) 3. ±ý½Ð¶l®t°e¹F®É¡u¥N¦¬³f»ù¡v(¬Û·í©ó¬ü°êªº "COD") ªº¸Ü, ½Ð ¥t¥[ 30 ¤¸ªº¤âÄò¶O, ¨Ã¶ñ¼g¤U¦C­qÁʳæ, ¶Çµ¹§Ú­Ì. 4. ©Î¯d«H (Email¡B¥Õ¤é¹Ú) ¬ù©w¿Ë¦Û¨ú³f. ¡¯µù: ¨C¦¸­qÁʹF¤­®M¥H¤WªÌ, §K¥I¹B¶O. §Ú­Ì·|¦b¦¬¨ì¹º¼·³æ¥¿¥»©Î¦¬¾Ú¶Ç¯uªº¦¸¤é, ±N±zªº¥úºÐ±H¥X. ­Y¦³ ³¡¥÷²£«~«ê¦n¯Ê³f, §Ú­Ì·|¥ý±N¦³³fªº³¡¥÷¥ý¦æ±H¥X. ¨ä¾l«Ý¥þ³¡¨ì»ô«á ±H¥X. ±z¤ð»Ý­t¾á²Ä¤G¦¸¸É±Hªº¶l¸ê. ¡i¥I´Ú¤è¦¡¡j ½Ð¹º¼·¦Ü 22113261, ±b¤á: ¥Û¥Ã²M ¡¯¤@¦¸­qÁÊ Walnut Creek ¥úºÐÁ`¼Æ (¤£­­ FreeBSD 2.1.7) ¹F ¢°¢¯ ®M ¥H¤W, ¥t¦³Àu«Ý, ½Ð¬¢«e¦C¤§Ápµ¸¤è¦¡. ±ý´î¤Ö¶l§½§@·~®É¶¡¤§©µ»~, ¥i¥ý±N¥H¤U¸ê®Æ, ³s¦P¹º¼·¦¬¾Ú¶Ç¯u¹L ¨Ó, §Y¦æ±Hµo: 1) ±zªº¶l±H¦a§} 2) Ápµ¸¤è¦¡ (Email, ¹q¸Ü, ¶Ç¯u...) 3) ­qÁʪº¥úºÐ¦WºÙ 4) ³Ì¦n¯à¼g¤W±zªº Email address ¤Î¶Ç¯u¹q¸Üµ¥! ¡i°Ñ¦Ò¸ê®Æ¡j 1. FreeBSD HandBook 2. FreeBSD 2.1.7-RELEASE announce newsletter by Jordan K. Hubbard. 1997/02/20 3. http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/freebsd.htm ¡i­qÁʳæ¡j ±z¥i¶ñ¼g¥H¤U¸ê®Æ, Email ¨ì chous@ms1.hinet.net, ©Î FAX ¨ì (02) 729-2551 To: Henry Chou. ¥i¥H¥[§Ö³B²zªº³t«×. ¦¬¥ó¤H: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (­Y±Ä¡u³f¨ì¦¬´Ú¡v¤è¦¡, ¥I´Ú¤H§Y¬°¦¬¥ó¤H) Email: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ¹q¸Ü: ¶Ç¯u: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ¦¬¥ó¤H¦a§}: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ­qÁʶµ¥Ø ¼Æ¶q ª÷ÃB ================================================================ ¨Ò: Official Slackware 96 2 1520 (ªÅ¥Õ³¡¥÷½Ð¦Û¦æ¼W´î) ================================================================ ¤p­p = ^^^^^^^ ¶l¸ê (½Ð¨£¤W¤å»¡©ú, Á`¼Æ¶q¹F 5 ®MªÌ§K¶ñ) = ^^^^^^^ ½Ð¶l®t°e¹F®É¦¬¨ú³f´Ú, ½Ð¶ñ 30: ^^^^^^^ Á`ª÷ÃB: ^^^^^^^ ½Ðµù©ú±zªº¥I´Ú¤è¦¡: __ ¹º¼· __ ³f¨ì¥I´Ú __ ¦Û¨ú ¬ÛÃö¤å¥ó (¦p¹º¼·¦¬¾Ú¡BÁʶR¾Ç¥Íª©²£«~¤§ÃÒ¥ó.... ­YµL, ½ÐªÅ¥Õ): ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ . From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 21:32:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08896 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:32:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08886 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:32:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06830; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:32:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01955; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:32:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:32:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120532.WAA01955@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120421.VAA22382@usr03.primenet.com> References: <199711120239.TAA01134@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711120421.VAA22382@usr03.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems > > > into predictable systems. > > > > Now your being way too general. Science is the attempt to 'model' the > > behavior of complex systems. If you think that 'chaotic' == 'complex' > > then yes, but some systems are inherently chaotic and can not be > > modeled. > > "Perfectly Random" doesn't exist. Prove it. I say it does. :) :) :) > Mostly because not only time and > energy is quantized, but because space is quantized, as well. Actually, space is not as far as we can tell. Space is infinite, and therefore cannot be quantized completely. (Something that is infinite cannot be modeled except by an infinite model.) With the same token energy maybe infinite as well.... > > > The only thing that chaos truly describes > > > is that for which we have yet to derive a predictive model. > > > > And some systems are entirely chaotic, and so therefore have *NO* > > predictive model. > > You're free to subscribe to this belief, but all of the empirical > evidence I've seen contradicts you. 8-). All of the emperical evidence you've seen doesn't take into account things that can't be described emperically. :) > > Especially systems that involve innovations and unique thought > > cannot be modeled, since any system which can create something new > > can easily be proven to not be modeled. > > So it's impossible to build an artificial intelligence? I argue that it's impossible to build 'true' artificial intelligence. And, there are alot of *really* smart people who agree with me. However, it depends on your definition of intelligence, mine being 'conscious', which is hard to quantify, especially in email. > I have a hard time accepting that without evidence. I hypothesize > that the only thing that makes a human being unique is locality > of self. Are 'conscious' and 'locality of self' the same? Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 21:34:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09226 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:34:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09206 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06839; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:34:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01986; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:34:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:34:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120534.WAA01986@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Jonathan Chen Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: References: <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > There are also things that are completely beyond the realm of scientific > > understanding as well, that cannot be 'explained away'. For example, a > > recent "scientific" study on 'prayer' was given. There were two groups > > of 'ill/sick' patients, one the control group, the other group needs > > were given to a group of people who had no contact with the group, and > > the results were astonishing. The people who were prayed for had a > > significant better recovery rate than the control group, yet there was > > absolutely no contact between any of the members in the entire > > 'experiment'. How do you explain that? Bad testing, not a big enough > > experiment group, co-incidence, etc...? Not everything can be explained > > by scientific reasoning, hence the need for 'FAITH'. > > This is more probably due to increased recovery rates due to meditative > states induced by `prayer-mode' rather than any divine intervention. Umm, the people who got better weren't praying, they were being prayed for, and by people whom they had no contact with. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 22:23:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15774 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:23:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15752 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:23:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA01340; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:18:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:18:25 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Nate Williams cc: Jonathan Chen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120534.WAA01986@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > Umm, the people who got better weren't praying, they were being prayed > for, and by people whom they had no contact with. > > > > Nate Which proves, simply, that truly bogus results are possible even in well designed experiments. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 22:23:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15792 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:23:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15785 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA01353; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:22:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:22:46 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120532.WAA01955@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems > > > > into predictable systems. You can equally well say that the history of science is the process of realizing how little is controlled by purpose, by intent, by "someone" pulling the strings....and how much is accidental, arbitrary; how little "mother" there is in Nature....how few gods there are to pacify.... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 22:29:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16532 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:29:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16526 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07179; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:28:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02195; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:28:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:28:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120628.XAA02195@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: References: <199711120532.WAA01955@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems > > > > > into predictable systems. > > You can equally well say that the history of science is the process of > realizing how little is controlled by purpose, by intent, by "someone" > pulling the strings....and how much is accidental, arbitrary; Huh? Far from it. The very 'order' in all of nature can be construed as a wonderful design by someone/something greater than our ability to understand. But, that takes Faith. In my opinion, it takes a whole lot less Faith to believe there is some design to what we call life than it all happened by pure accident or chance. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 22:36:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17257 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:36:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17252 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:36:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA01410; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:30:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:30:04 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120626.XAA02122@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > Umm, the people who got better weren't praying, they were being prayed > > > for, and by people whom they had no contact with. > > > > Which proves, simply, that truly bogus results are possible even in > > well designed experiments. > > Actually, your statement proves that closed minds exists, even by people > who claim to be 'scientific' and 'open-minded'. Then again, maybe you > don't consider yourself open-minded, so I may be jumping to conclusions. > > > > Nate > That's not nice, Nate. Bogus results are possible. But can you repeat this experiment and get statistically valid results? That's science. That one group got better and the other didn't--once-- isn't science. AA From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 22:38:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17552 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:38:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17534 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:38:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07246; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:38:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02274; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:38:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:38:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120638.XAA02274@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: References: <199711120626.XAA02122@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Umm, the people who got better weren't praying, they were being prayed > > > > for, and by people whom they had no contact with. > > > > > > Which proves, simply, that truly bogus results are possible even in > > > well designed experiments. > > > > Actually, your statement proves that closed minds exists, even by people > > who claim to be 'scientific' and 'open-minded'. Then again, maybe you > > don't consider yourself open-minded, so I may be jumping to conclusions. > > That's not nice, Nate. Neither is throwing out the results of something just because you don't want to believe in them. It's called having a closed mind. > Bogus results are possible. Sure, but given the intention of the people doing the tests, and their testing methodology, their results are as valid as any 'experiment' done today whose results are based on a single study, which covers about 80% of the published studies done. Heck, most of today's medicines and medical research is done with single studies, based solely on the difficulty in getting good test subjects, length of time needed, and the need to come up with 'valid' and 'current' results. Most scientific/open-minded don't question these studies which have equally 'questionable' results, yet when it comes to religion the studies are thrown out as bogus. > But can you repeat this experiment and get statistically valid results? I'd be willing to bet that it's repeatable. > That's science. That one group got better and the other didn't--once-- > isn't science. No-one has been wiling to disprove it, and the test in question has been done multiple times, but never to the same degree as was done in the S.F. hospital. It *has* been repeated multiple times, but in all but this most recent case the data has been considered tainted. The most recent study was done in such a manner that it was hard to refute the results. (Amazingly enough, the original purpose of the study was to refute the other 'bogus' studies that were done, so the results were in effect the opposite of the intent.) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 23:10:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21604 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (tlambert@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.6.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21594 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29725; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:10:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120710.AAA29725@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:10:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711120532.WAA01955@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 11, 97 10:32:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > "Perfectly Random" doesn't exist. > > Prove it. I say it does. :) :) :) It's the simpler explanation. Prove that it does, or provide some empirical evidence which contradicts the hypothesis... 8-). > > Mostly because not only time and > > energy is quantized, but because space is quantized, as well. > > Actually, space is not as far as we can tell. Space is infinite, and > therefore cannot be quantized completely. (Something that is infinite > cannot be modeled except by an infinite model.) A grid etched on a plain can have a defined grid unit size without the plane having to be finite. Although the best evidence we have suggests that space is finite (and that we live in a closed universe). > With the same token energy maybe infinite as well.... Again, the best evidence is that we live in a closed universe. > All of the emperical evidence you've seen doesn't take into account > things that can't be described emperically. :) That's why it's called "empirical" evidence. 8-). > I argue that it's impossible to build 'true' artificial intelligence. Don't parents do this every day? 8-) 8-). > And, there are alot of *really* smart people who agree with me. And a lot of them who disagree with you. Appeal to authority isn't a valid form of proof. 8-). > However, it depends on your definition of intelligence, mine being > 'conscious', which is hard to quantify, especially in email. > > > I have a hard time accepting that without evidence. I hypothesize > > that the only thing that makes a human being unique is locality > > of self. > > Are 'conscious' and 'locality of self' the same? Locality of consciousness, perhaps. I can certainly localize "self" for anyone to inside one cubic foot: their head. If I had a "magic" technology that could duplicate you down to the spin on your electrons, the original and duplicate would still differ in their locality of self. And if the "soul theory" -- which is not the simplest explanation, given observable data -- is correct, then I guess the duplicate would be brain-dead. Which means we could use the technology with impunity on politicians. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 23:13:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21849 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:13:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (tlambert@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.6.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21842 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29953; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:12:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120712.AAA29953@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu (Annelise Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:12:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Annelise Anderson" at Nov 11, 97 10:22:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems > > > > > into predictable systems. > > You can equally well say that the history of science is the process of > realizing how little is controlled by purpose, by intent, by "someone" > pulling the strings....and how much is accidental, arbitrary; how little > "mother" there is in Nature....how few gods there are to pacify.... Except Bob. You have to pacify Bob. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 23:18:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22311 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:18:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22292 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:18:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07480; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:18:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA02460; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:18:08 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:18:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120718.AAA02460@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120710.AAA29725@usr01.primenet.com> References: <199711120532.WAA01955@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711120710.AAA29725@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > "Perfectly Random" doesn't exist. > > > > Prove it. I say it does. :) :) :) > > It's the simpler explanation. Simpler != correct. > Prove that it does, or provide some > empirical evidence which contradicts the hypothesis... 8-). Human behavior. Why do I fall in love with who I fall in love with? Why do some children raised in the exact same circumstances turn out totally different? Why do twins with the *exact* same DNA look and act different? > > > Mostly because not only time and > > > energy is quantized, but because space is quantized, as well. > > > > Actually, space is not as far as we can tell. Space is infinite, and > > therefore cannot be quantized completely. (Something that is infinite > > cannot be modeled except by an infinite model.) > > A grid etched on a plain can have a defined grid unit size without > the plane having to be finite. Yes, but you've only described a subset, not the entire thing. > Although the best evidence we have > suggests that space is finite (and that we live in a closed universe). Let's see some facts to back up this assertion. > > With the same token energy maybe infinite as well.... > > Again, the best evidence is that we live in a closed universe. Your evidence comes from different sources than mine. [ I assert that Artificial intelligence can't be created ] > > And, there are alot of *really* smart people who agree with me. > > And a lot of them who disagree with you. Appeal to authority isn't > a valid form of proof. 8-). True, but I don't have the purden of proof, you do. I assert that it can't be done, so you must therefore prove to me that it can. All of the emperical evidence up till now supports my claim. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 23:31:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23960 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:31:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (tlambert@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.6.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23952 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:31:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA01244; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:31:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120731.AAA01244@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:31:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711120718.AAA02460@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 12, 97 00:18:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > "Perfectly Random" doesn't exist. > > > > > > Prove it. I say it does. :) :) :) > > > > It's the simpler explanation. > > Simpler != correct. We've been here. Simpler == provisionally correct in the absence of empirical evidence to the contrarary. Or, another way of looking at it, simple := empirically correct. Your faith will not change the way you need to route bus signals on a motherboard design. > > Prove that it does, or provide some > > empirical evidence which contradicts the hypothesis... 8-). > > Human behavior. Why do I fall in love with who I fall in love with? A 2-3 reducatase reaction, similar to that induced by the consumption of chocolate? > Why do some children raised in the exact same circumstances turn out > totally different? Because they are genetically predestined to do so? > Why do twins with the *exact* same DNA look and act different? Or your measure of "the exast same circumstances" lacks sufficient resoloution for it to be an accurate observation? There has to be at least a one cubic foot difference in their perspective. You could claim it was environmental. Maybe they were exposed to different prions? > > A grid etched on a plain can have a defined grid unit size without > > the plane having to be finite. > > Yes, but you've only described a subset, not the entire thing. How do you think "proof by induction" works? > > Although the best evidence we have > > suggests that space is finite (and that we live in a closed universe). > > Let's see some facts to back up this assertion. You should watch the Stephen Hawking series currently airing on PBS for this answer. Or read his book "A Brief History Of Time". > > > With the same token energy maybe infinite as well.... > > > > Again, the best evidence is that we live in a closed universe. > > Your evidence comes from different sources than mine. Yes. Mine comes from the Empirical observations of Physicists. 8-) 8-). > [ I assert that Artificial intelligence can't be created ] [ ... and I "deassert" it -- 8-)... ] > True, but I don't have the purden of proof, you do. I assert that it > can't be done, so you must therefore prove to me that it can. All of > the emperical evidence up till now supports my claim. :) What about the Empirical fact that human beings exist, and there's no evidence that they are anything other than atomic scale machines? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 23:39:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA24777 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:39:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24767 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:39:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA00902 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:38:54 -0800 (PST) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD slogan vote results: Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:38:53 -0800 Message-ID: <897.879320333@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, and welcome to the 1997 FreeBSD Slogan awards! I'm your host, Jordan Hubbard, and this is Pamela Anderson Lee, my co-host. Smile for the audience, Pamela! [she grins and waves]. jkh: "And now, in the category of best supporting slogan, the winner is... The envelope, Pamela?" Pam: "I can't get it open. It's, like, stuck!" jkh: "Here, just shred it along the top, like this." Pam: "Ohhhh! No wonder Tommy always opens the mail for me!" jkh: "*sigh* And the winner for best supporting slogan, with 17 votes, is... ``FreeBSD: Powering the Internet'' from Gary T. Corcoran!" [audience cheers] Gary: "*Sniff* This is so.. so unexpected! I just don't know what to say! Do I, uh, win anything then?" jkh: "Uh, no. That's only the first place winner, sorry." Gary: "You %$#@&! cheapskates!" jkh: "Indeed. And now, the moment you've all been waiting for, the WINNER of this year's FreeBSD slogan contest! And the winner, with 34 votes, is... Pamela, the envelope please. Pamela! Put that back on!" Pam: "Sorry, just practicing!" jkh: "The winner of this year's slogan contest is... ``FreeBSD: The power to serve'' from, ummmm, `Spork'" Pam: "Uh. Serve what?" jkh: "Just ``serve.'' It's sort of a double entendre." Pam: "A double *what*?" jkh: "Oh never mind. Just give me the T-shirt and the CD subscription so we can get this over with. Hey, what kind of a name is ``spork'' anyway?" spork: "Well, it's ..." jkh: "And that's all we have time for, sorry! Please join us next year when we next present: The FreeBSD Slogan awards!" [roll credits as everyone on stage bows to the cheering audience] [ jkh: "So, uh, Pam. Those aren't real, are they?" Pam: "You know, like, everyone asks me that! Here, feel!" jkh: "Ack! No, put that back on! We're still on the air!" ] [hasty fade to commercial] P.S. to spork. Please send me your postal address! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 23:50:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26242 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:50:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26234 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:50:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07688; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:50:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA02612; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:50:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:50:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711120750.AAA02612@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120731.AAA01244@usr01.primenet.com> References: <199711120718.AAA02460@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711120731.AAA01244@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > "Perfectly Random" doesn't exist. > > > > > > > > Prove it. I say it does. :) :) :) > > > > > > It's the simpler explanation. > > > > Simpler != correct. > > We've been here. Simpler == provisionally correct in the absence of > empirical evidence to the contrarary. We've been here, but I don't agree to your 'waving of the hands' that claims it's provisionally correct. > > > Prove that it does, or provide some > > > empirical evidence which contradicts the hypothesis... 8-). > > > > Human behavior. Why do I fall in love with who I fall in love with? > > A 2-3 reducatase reaction, similar to that induced by the consumption > of chocolate? Yeah, right. Nice try, but go back to school and learn some more. :) > > Why do some children raised in the exact same circumstances turn out > > totally different? > > Because they are genetically predestined to do so? Nope, see below. > > Why do twins with the *exact* same DNA look and act different? > > Or your measure of "the exast same circumstances" lacks sufficient > resoloution for it to be an accurate observation? There has to be > at least a one cubic foot difference in their perspective. You > could claim it was environmental. But, the environment is similar enough that in many cases their siblings are more alike in certain behaviors to one twin than the two are alike. No explanation you can come up with can 'wave away' our explain their behavior in an acceptable manner. Hence, you cannot model human behavior since it essentially a chaotic system. But, even completely chaotic systems exhibit some 'patterns', which makes is down-right frustrating when you start to rely on those patterns, or make the assumptions that those patterns are adequate to fully model the behavior and fall on your face. :) :) > > > A grid etched on a plain can have a defined grid unit size without > > > the plane having to be finite. > > > > Yes, but you've only described a subset, not the entire thing. > > How do you think "proof by induction" works? > Proof by induction assumes that the behavior of the system is the same across all of the space, and it fails since the behavior and/or model we know is incomplete. It works well with numbers since we've arbitrarily limited the model to something simple for communication purposes. > > > > With the same token energy maybe infinite as well.... > > > > > > Again, the best evidence is that we live in a closed universe. > > > > Your evidence comes from different sources than mine. > > Yes. Mine comes from the Empirical observations of Physicists. 8-) 8-). Should I bring in Brian Handy, who *almost* has a Ph.D in Solar Physics. And, don't think I'm not willing to use/abuse his knowledge and talents. :) :) > > [ I assert that Artificial intelligence can't be created ] > [ ... and I "deassert" it -- 8-)... ] > > True, but I don't have the purden of proof, you do. I assert that it > > can't be done, so you must therefore prove to me that it can. All of > > the emperical evidence up till now supports my claim. :) > > What about the Empirical fact that human beings exist, and there's no > evidence that they are anything other than atomic scale machines? Again, you're using circular logic that I don't agree with. I assert that the human being is *more* than just atoms spinning around, but that requires Faith. :) :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 11 23:56:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27987 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:56:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27902 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:56:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA01721; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:56:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:56:07 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120638.XAA02274@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > > Umm, the people who got better weren't praying, they were being prayed > > > > > for, and by people whom they had no contact with. > > > > > > > > Which proves, simply, that truly bogus results are possible even in > > > > well designed experiments. > > > > > > Actually, your statement proves that closed minds exists, even by people > > > who claim to be 'scientific' and 'open-minded'. Then again, maybe you > > > don't consider yourself open-minded, so I may be jumping to conclusions. > > > > That's not nice, Nate. > > Neither is throwing out the results of something just because you don't > want to believe in them. It's called having a closed mind. I would like to agree with the judgment here that I have a closed mind on this issue--or something very close to it, like 99.99%. I think most adults arrive at some stable world view that constitutes a set of hypotheses about how the world works. And my view of how the world works is such that I am inclined to doubt, with close to 100% certainty, that the health of one group of people improved more than another group because some other people prayed for them. Now, if they knew others were praying for them--or if those caring for them knew it--that's different. Then they have different beliefs about their own prospects. What people believe and their own confidence in their futures affects outcomes; that there are psychological effects on physical health is really not in dispute, although how this works isn't necessarily known. But this is apparently not the claim of the studies, but rather that the praying helped even though neither the patients nor the care-givers knew about it. I would conclude there's something wrong with these studies, whether it's selection bias, that they're not really "double-blind" studies, in the intepretation of results, or whatever. It would be very, very difficult to convince me otherwise. It would be sufficiently difficult that I would find it hard to justify spending time evaluating such studies to determine their validity. In this sense my mind is closed (or very close to it) on hypotheses of this type, because they are inconsistent with my view of how the world works, that is, my view of reality. Thus most of us reject out of hand certain kinds of hypotheses, and in that sense have closed minds. I am aware that scientific breakthroughs are made by people who reject the world views characteristic of their times. There's also a lot of good science done within the standard world view of the times. There are also, as you point out, a lot of studies done that are never repeated and may not be valid but are nevertheless accepted, perhaps because they are based on assumptions about how the world works that are widely shared. You see, I have trouble with prayer as a causative phenomenon. I have trouble with the idea of a higher being or beings who can be manipulated by people praying. I have trouble with a god who would let one group of people languish in pain and illness because other people were not praying for them. I have trouble with auras, with influences or forces transmitted by people willing something, whether it be the health of others (or an evil spell case upon them) or the roll of dice. That's just my world view. Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 00:27:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA03479 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:27:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from u1.farm.idt.net (root@u1.farm.idt.net [169.132.8.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03465 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:27:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garycorc@idt.net) Received: from idt.net (ppp-13.ts-1.mlb.idt.net [169.132.71.13]) by u1.farm.idt.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02043; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:27:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34696816.AFDC329C@idt.net> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:25:58 -0500 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan vote results: References: <897.879320333@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Hello, and welcome to the 1997 FreeBSD Slogan awards! I'm your > host, Jordan Hubbard, and this is Pamela Anderson Lee, my co-host. > Smile for the audience, Pamela! [she grins and waves]. ... > > jkh: "*sigh* And the winner for best supporting slogan, with 17 votes, > is... ``FreeBSD: Powering the Internet'' from Gary T. Corcoran!" > > [audience cheers] > > Gary: "*Sniff* This is so.. so unexpected! I just don't know what > to say! Do I, uh, win anything then?" > > jkh: "Uh, no. That's only the first place winner, sorry." Gee, not even a FreeBSD T-shirt? Okay, I'll settle for a date with Pamela... ;-) Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 00:49:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA06523 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:49:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebsd.ntu.edu.tw (freebsd.ntu.edu.tw [140.112.1.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05941 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:45:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw) From: woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw Received: (qmail 6599 invoked by uid 9999); 12 Nov 1997 08:46:17 -0000 Date: 12 Nov 1997 08:46:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19971112084617.6598.qmail@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw> Reply-To: woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan vote results: X-Disclaimer: FreeBSD ­Ñ¼Ö³¡¹ï¥»«H¤º®e®¤¤£­t³d¡C Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : jkh: "Indeed. And now, the moment you've all been waiting for, : the WINNER of this year's FreeBSD slogan contest! And the winner, : with 34 votes, is... Pamela, the envelope please. : Pamela! Put that back on!" : Pam: "Sorry, just practicing!" : jkh: "The winner of this year's slogan contest is... : ``FreeBSD: The power to serve'' from, ummmm, `Spork'" Great!! i'm really HAPPY to see this result, especially knowing there are my 3 votes in the 34 votes. :)) "FreeBSD: The power to server" i like this! BTW, "just" 34 votes would win the contest... mmm... maybe not so many people knowing what's going on at freebsd-chat, let's try making more "attractive" blurb for FreeBSD. Hope that next year, we can have 34 "million" votes for the contest winner. :-) Best regards, woju . From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 01:10:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA11320 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from usr01.primenet.com (tlambert@usr01.primenet.com [206.165.6.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA11282 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:09:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA07713; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:09:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711120909.CAA07713@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:09:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711120750.AAA02612@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 12, 97 00:50:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Simpler != correct. > > > > We've been here. Simpler == provisionally correct in the absence of > > empirical evidence to the contrarary. > > We've been here, but I don't agree to your 'waving of the hands' that > claims it's provisionally correct. It's a definition for a rule set called the "scientific method". Do you want to argue the existance of light bulbs? 8-). > But, the environment is similar enough that in many cases their siblings > are more alike in certain behaviors to one twin than the two are alike. I don't accept this statement without empirical evidence to back it; can you point to the studies that back this up? > Hence, you cannot model human behavior since it essentially a > chaotic system. But, even completely chaotic systems exhibit some > 'patterns', which makes is down-right frustrating when you start > to rely on those patterns, or make the assumptions that those > patterns are adequate to fully model the behavior and fall on > your face. :) :) When is the last time you saw an insurance company go bankrupt? The insurance industry relies on actuarial tables. These tables predict with a high degree of accuracy what will occur within a large population. They model a chaotic system that exhibits patterns, and they do not "fall on their face" as a result. For a less human linked chaotic system, we can look at gasses; the behaviour of a single atom in a gas can not be accurately predicted because it will interact with other atoms of gas. Enough gas, and you can not model the individual components of the entire system in real time. But you can model the behaviour of the gas, as a whole, using statistically derived "laws" (like "PV = nRT"; Pressure times Volume equalt number of Moles of gas times the gas law constant 'R' time the Temperature above absolute zero). Another chatoic system would be one in which you could draw a circle of an indeterminate radius. I don't need to know the radius to tell you the relationship between the radius and the area (assuming you draw perfect circles, and assuming you draw them in Euclidian spaces). > > > Yes, but you've only described a subset, not the entire thing. > > > > How do you think "proof by induction" works? > > Proof by induction assumes that the behavior of the system is the same > across all of the space, and it fails since the behavior and/or model we > know is incomplete. It works well with numbers since we've arbitrarily > limited the model to something simple for communication purposes. Yet we cannot observe that which we cannot observe, and therefore we must leave it out of our models if we want them to work at predicting that which we can observe. You *could* choose to add whatever terms you want to the model, so long as the terms you ass resolve to the identity matrix for that which we can observe. And then the rest of us can pretend those terms don't exist, until you can come up with empirical evidence to prove their existance. And until then, we *will* pretend the don't exist, because that makes the calculations simpler (Occam's Razor). For example, if we have a system we are modelling, and there are no relativistic effects involved, we may use Newtonian mechanics to model the system, and we will not obtain results which are different from those of using special relativity or general relativity based models. Such a model is "sufficiently predicitive", despite the fact that we know that should we speed it up above some point, the values at the far limits of our precision will start to show error. > > > > > With the same token energy maybe infinite as well.... > > > > > > > > Again, the best evidence is that we live in a closed universe. [ ... ] > Should I bring in Brian Handy, who *almost* has a Ph.D in Solar > Physics. And, don't think I'm not willing to use/abuse his knowledge > and talents. :) :) Feel free. A Solar Physics person (him) is probably going to be at least as well versed on Cosomology as a Quantum Physics person (me), and we can both argue ourselves blue about the missing mass, and both being outside our specialties, will probably resolve nothing. Then we'll have to appeal to authority. Like Hawking. 8-). But if we fail at that, then we can take the standard cosmological question by the roots ("where did the universe come from") to its reductio ad absurdum conclusion that it's simpler to say the Universe has always existed (steady state or not) than that God has always existed. > Again, you're using circular logic that I don't agree with. I assert > that the human being is *more* than just atoms spinning around, but that > requires Faith. :) :) To accept? I agree: it requires faith to accept anything for which one does not have empirical evidence. That's a definition. But to cause me to not apply Occam's Razor and accept the simpler explanation that humans are finite state automatons as my working hypothesis? For that, you will have to provide empirical data on the mass/energy equivalent of "human - just_atoms_spinning_around". Or you will have to prove that a model based on that assumption is more predictive that one based on the simpler hypothesis. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 02:41:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA24206 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA24201 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 02:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id EAA17885 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:40:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga7-04.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.36) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017178; Wed Nov 12 04:21:43 1997 Message-ID: <3469832A.6273F566@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 05:21:30 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: IDT processors?] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B36EF2BBEBA36555651C9094" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B36EF2BBEBA36555651C9094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------B36EF2BBEBA36555651C9094 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by ixmail3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7/(NETCOM v1.01)) with ESMTP id VAA14431; for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:41:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA29925; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:56:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:56:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711100556.WAA29925@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: IDT processors? In-Reply-To: <34667DA7.F161BF58@ix.netcom.com> References: <199711100207.UAA08730@nospam.hiwaay.net> <34667DA7.F161BF58@ix.netcom.com> Jerry Hicks writes: > (moved to -chat) > David Kelly wrote: > > > At about the top, the 68360 has a CPU-32+ core and (4) communications > > ports similar to the 68302 but better. A mask pinout option turns one > > port into an ethernet port. > > And then the QUICC-32... > > The '360 family has a support for SS7 and LAPx protocols too. > > Back on a FreeBSD-related topic... ;) > > It would be nice to have a cross-development package for these > processors hosted on FreeBSD, since there are quite a few ISA/PCI boards > available for PC systems. > > Anybody know of anything workable? Sure. Download the source tarballs for binutils and gcc, and in order, do: ./configure --target-m68k-wrs-vxworks --host=i386-foo-freebsd2.2 make make install It'll take a couple of hours, and you will, of course, need VxWorks. ;^) If you want to try roughing it, you can compile for a.out or coff and learn enough 'ld' to generate an absolute load module in S records or Intel hex format. The Fujitsu SPARClite I've been working with does exactly this, I use --target=sparclite-coff. I extracted the library files from the distribution CD-ROM rather than rebuilding them all. This also got me the ld scripts and makefiles from the SunOS version, which were quite usable on FreeBSD as soon as I fixed up a few paths to libraries and such. FreeBSD makes an excellent cross-development platform; it's kind of cool to use GUD-mode in Emacs while single stepping the kernel on another machine over the network. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com --------------B36EF2BBEBA36555651C9094-- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 03:11:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA26045 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de [141.31.112.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA26034 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:11:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from helbig@Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA07551; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:36 +0100 (MET) From: Wolfgang Helbig Message-Id: <199711121002.LAA07551@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <3468CE57.4827@PartsNow.com> from Don Wilde at "Nov 11, 97 01:29:59 pm" To: don@PartsNow.com Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:36 +0100 (MET) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ... and our good friend Godel proved that there MUST exist something Please don't abuse Gödel's work--he didn't "prove" anything like that. And reconsider your notion of "universe". If you have an all encompassing room, nothing can be outside it--by definition. Exam-Question: Define "universe" and give two examples. > outside of a universe in order to define said universe. If there does in Wolfgang From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 03:43:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA27469 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:43:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from homer.duff-beer.com (mail@homer.duff-beer.com [194.207.51.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA27453 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 03:43:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scot@poptart.org) Received: from poptart.org (nicky@choccy.poptart.org [194.207.78.222]) by homer.duff-beer.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05426 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:43:23 GMT Message-ID: <34699723.5057F834@poptart.org> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:46:43 +0000 From: Scot Elliott Organization: Extreme Technologies LTD X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recommendation for a UK based ISP References: <19971112101725.23103@iii.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk nik@iii.co.uk wrote: > > Hi, > > Can anyone recommend (or alternatively, if you're reading this in -isp, > are you) a good ISP in the UK? I'm not looking for much, just an ISP who Well it depends if you want dial-up or just the web-space/SMTP. Demon do dialup, give you a name in their domain and forward mail to it with SMTP I think. And I think they supple 10MB or so free web space. But their throughtput's pretty crappy. If you don't need the dialup and just want web-space and SMTP forwarding then we could do that for you - our server aint used for much at the moment. Yours. Scot. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 04:30:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA00572 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:30:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.acucobol.ie (gatekeeper.acucobol.ie [194.125.135.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA00566 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:30:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmcl@Acucobol.IE) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by gatekeeper.acucobol.ie (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08385 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:27:57 GMT Received: from guinness.acucobol.ie(194.125.135.195) by gatekeeper.acucobol.ie via smap (V2.0beta) id xma008364; Wed, 12 Nov 97 12:27:52 GMT Received: from guinness (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by guinness.acucobol.ie (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26101 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:30:20 GMT Message-Id: <199711121230.MAA26101@guinness.acucobol.ie> From: John McLaughlin To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recommendation for a UK based ISP In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:17:25 GMT." <19971112101725.23103@iii.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:30:20 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk We use Technocom, who I've had no reason to complain about. They're reliable, and have at least a few people who know what they're doing. They should be able to set you up with SMTP delivery, though the more clueless front line people will try to push some Windoze package onto you. I'd recommend them anyway. John From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 04:33:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA00760 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:33:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA00719; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 04:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29415; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:30 GMT Message-Id: <199711121216.MAA29415@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recommendation for a UK based ISP In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:17:25 GMT." <19971112101725.23103@iii.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:29 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Demon systems (www.demon.net) provide all this for #10+VAT (#11.75) per month. They go trough bad patches with their news servers, but their availability is excelent. They don't run or support FreeBSD, but I've used FreeBSD to connect to them since 1991 (when it was 386BSD). > Hi, > > Can anyone recommend (or alternatively, if you're reading this in -isp, > are you) a good ISP in the UK? I'm not looking for much, just an ISP who > > - Gives me a subdomain of their own domain, and delivers mail to it using > SMTP (so I'm not paying them every time I want to set up a new mailbox) > > - Doesn't do anything that would prevent me running INN or C News locally, > so I can read groups at my own pace and expiry times. > > - Offers 3 or 4 MB of web space for a reasonable price, lets me telnet and > ftp to this web space, and has up to date copies of Perl available > (anything after 5.00401). Oh, and has no silly restrictions like "You > will use our mail script, our web hit counter script (ugh) and that's > all"). > > Bonus points if they run FreeBSD, obviously. Any pointers gratefully > received. > > To keep clutter down on the mailing lists I've set the reply-to to chat. > > N > -- > --+==[ Nik Clayton is Just Another Perl Hacker at Interactive Investor ]==+-- > It is easier to seek forgiveness than permission -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 06:04:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA05693 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA05658 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:03:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ip@albatross.mcc.ac.uk) Received: from albatross.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.202.16] by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #3) id 0xVdON-0000W9-00; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:03:39 +0000 Received: (from ip@localhost) by albatross.mcc.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.4) id OAA09618; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:03:38 GMT From: Ian Pallfreeman Message-Id: <199711121403.OAA09618@albatross.mcc.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Recommendation for a UK based ISP In-Reply-To: <199711121216.MAA29415@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> from Brian Somers at "Nov 12, 97 12:16:29 pm" To: brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:03:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: ip@mcc.ac.uk X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brian Somers wrote: > They don't run or support FreeBSD I was under the impression they were using FreeBSD front-end news servers. We've certainly seen Ade Lovett posting here... Ian. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 06:24:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06582 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:24:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA06572 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:24:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711121424.JAA03747@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:21:57 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <29759.879306323@time.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm praying that this bizarre > thread will end soon in -chat. > > Hmmm. Doesn't seem to be working so far, so I guess god's either > ignoring me or he doesn't exist. :-) > > Jordan > Jordan the realist to the rescue (insert dramatic theme music here). Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 06:34:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA07103 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:34:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07078 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 06:33:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711121434.JAA03780@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:32:02 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120628.XAA02195@rocky.mt.sri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > > > The entire history of science is the conversion of "chaotic" systems > > > > > > into predictable systems. > > > > You can equally well say that the history of science is the process of > > realizing how little is controlled by purpose, by intent, by "someone" > > pulling the strings....and how much is accidental, arbitrary; > > Huh? Far from it. The very 'order' in all of nature can be construed > as a wonderful design by someone/something greater than our ability to > understand. But, that takes Faith. > > In my opinion, it takes a whole lot less Faith to believe there is some > design to what we call life than it all happened by pure accident or > chance. > > > Nate > And why is that exactly? In an infinite universe, anything that can happen, probably will happen at one or multiple points. And as you pointed out in a previous post, the universe is infinite. Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 07:05:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09008 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:05:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08970; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:05:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05713; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:04:53 GMT Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:05:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: Brian Somers cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recommendation for a UK based ISP In-Reply-To: <199711121216.MAA29415@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Brian Somers wrote: > Demon systems (www.demon.net) provide all this for #10+VAT (#11.75) > per month. > > They go trough bad patches with their news servers, but their > availability is excelent. Bad patches! Haven't they had a news backlog they can't sort for about a year now ? It's not that bad, but its' not exactly wonderful. How about one of the newcomers like virgin, or perhas just one of the freebie ones (new account once per month, but surely Nik knows someone around who can host him a website or do smtp forwarding..) Steve. -- Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 07:09:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09281 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09267 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:09:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA11956; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:04:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:04:46 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: "Gary T. Corcoran" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan vote results: In-Reply-To: <34696816.AFDC329C@idt.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Man, I didn't even stuff the ballot box! Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com ---- "I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man Just a mortal with potential of a superman I'm living on" -DB On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Gary T. Corcoran wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > Hello, and welcome to the 1997 FreeBSD Slogan awards! I'm your > > host, Jordan Hubbard, and this is Pamela Anderson Lee, my co-host. > > Smile for the audience, Pamela! [she grins and waves]. > ... > > > > jkh: "*sigh* And the winner for best supporting slogan, with 17 votes, > > is... ``FreeBSD: Powering the Internet'' from Gary T. Corcoran!" > > > > [audience cheers] > > > > Gary: "*Sniff* This is so.. so unexpected! I just don't know what > > to say! Do I, uh, win anything then?" > > > > jkh: "Uh, no. That's only the first place winner, sorry." > > Gee, not even a FreeBSD T-shirt? > > Okay, I'll settle for a date with Pamela... ;-) > > > Gary > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 07:35:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11370 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11359 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10344; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:35:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03735; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:35:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:35:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711121535.IAA03735@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: References: <199711120638.XAA02274@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Neither is throwing out the results of something just because you don't > > want to believe in them. It's called having a closed mind. > > I would like to agree with the judgment here that I have a closed mind > on this issue--or something very close to it, like 99.99%. Fair enough, you've agreed. > I think most adults arrive at some stable world view that constitutes a > set of hypotheses about how the world works. And my view of how the > world works is such that I am inclined to doubt, with close to 100% > certainty, that the health of one group of people improved more than > another group because some other people prayed for them. That's why I call it a close-mind. However, these are the same sorts of views that can lead to predjudice towards people who believe different than you (which you may already have, but I don't know enough about you to say). If something occurs that doesn't fit your world view, ignoring it is the *worst* thing to do. The best thing to do is to take that information and modify your world view so that it fits. Now, you may not choose to believe in God due to it, but you *must* deal with the possibility that the data is valid, and if so what solution can you come up with that explains the phenomenon given your world view. (Others have claimed that it's due to telepathy or something, but that's not obviously my point of view.) In any case, valid information that is inconsistant with your world view needs adjusting. That's part of being an adult. ;) > Now, if they knew others were praying for them--or if those caring for > them knew it--that's different. They didn't know they were being prayed for. It was a double-blind study (neither the prayer nor the prayee were aware of one another, except that the prayer obviously knew of the existance of the prayee, but had no direct knowledge about them except a 'name' and the symptoms.) > It would be very, very difficult to convince me otherwise. It would be > sufficiently difficult that I would find it hard to justify spending time > evaluating such studies to determine their validity. Close mindedness because it doesn't fit your world view. If you want to be treated as an adult, then you must be willing to accept the fact that you have not lived enough life to have 'all the answers', and that what you know to be true is based on limited understanding and experiences. As the old saying goes 'the more you know, the less you know.' > In this sense my mind is closed (or very close to it) on hypotheses of > this type, because they are inconsistent with my view of how the world > works, that is, my view of reality. Then your view of reality needs to be modified. You can't ignore information just because it doesn't fit, that way leads to ignorance, predjudice (sp?), and all sorts of other nasty things. > You see, I have trouble with prayer as a causative phenomenon. I have > trouble with the idea of a higher being or beings who can be manipulated > by people praying. I have trouble with a god who would let one group of > people languish in pain and illness because other people were not praying > for them. I have trouble with auras, with influences or forces > transmitted by people willing something, whether it be the health of > others (or an evil spell case upon them) or the roll of dice. Just because you have trouble with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Your personal feelings have nothing to do with the existance of lack thereof of God or gods. If he/she/it truly exists, your beliefs don't somehow make it go away. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 07:43:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11902 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11888 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10397; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03784; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711121543.IAA03784@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120909.CAA07713@usr01.primenet.com> References: <199711120750.AAA02612@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711120909.CAA07713@usr01.primenet.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Simpler != correct. > > > > > > We've been here. Simpler == provisionally correct in the absence of > > > empirical evidence to the contrarary. > > > > We've been here, but I don't agree to your 'waving of the hands' that > > claims it's provisionally correct. > > It's a definition for a rule set called the "scientific method". No, it's not. Again, waving your hands and making bogus claims don't make it true. > > But, the environment is similar enough that in many cases their siblings > > are more alike in certain behaviors to one twin than the two are alike. > > I don't accept this statement without empirical evidence to back it; > can you point to the studies that back this up? I know the girls personally. I went to 5 years of college with them, and also know their brother quite well. (*sigh*, I wanted to marry one of them, but alas she didn't feel the same way about me....) > > Hence, you cannot model human behavior since it essentially a > > chaotic system. But, even completely chaotic systems exhibit some > > 'patterns', which makes is down-right frustrating when you start > > to rely on those patterns, or make the assumptions that those > > patterns are adequate to fully model the behavior and fall on > > your face. :) :) > > When is the last time you saw an insurance company go bankrupt? > The insurance industry relies on actuarial tables. These tables > predict with a high degree of accuracy what will occur within a > large population. They model a chaotic system that exhibits > patterns, and they do not "fall on their face" as a result. Actually, in some cases they 'do'. But, they are big enough to swallow the losses, cancel the policies for everyone in that area and move onto greener pastures. And, they're not relying on random human behavior here, but rather very conservative models based on very basic built-in values, such as not wanting to die. > > > > Yes, but you've only described a subset, not the entire thing. > > > > > > How do you think "proof by induction" works? > > > > Proof by induction assumes that the behavior of the system is the same > > across all of the space, and it fails since the behavior and/or model we > > know is incomplete. It works well with numbers since we've arbitrarily > > limited the model to something simple for communication purposes. > > Yet we cannot observe that which we cannot observe, and therefore we > must leave it out of our models if we want them to work at predicting > that which we can observe. You hit the nail on the head. You cannot accurately model that which you can not accurately quantify. By George, I think he's got it. Science cannot model anything that is not quantifiable, which is one of the biggest points I've been trying to make here. Science cannot even begin to answer all of the questions in life, and believing it can/does leaves you in a 2-D world, with a whole other dimension missing. > > Should I bring in Brian Handy, who *almost* has a Ph.D in Solar > > Physics. And, don't think I'm not willing to use/abuse his knowledge > > and talents. :) :) > > Feel free. A Solar Physics person (him) is probably going to be at > least as well versed on Cosomology as a Quantum Physics person (me), > and we can both argue ourselves blue about the missing mass, and both > being outside our specialties, will probably resolve nothing. Then > we'll have to appeal to authority. Like Hawking. 8-). A Sci-Fi writer isn't someone I would consider an authority. > But if we fail at that, then we can take the standard cosmological > question by the roots ("where did the universe come from") to its > reductio ad absurdum conclusion that it's simpler to say the Universe > has always existed (steady state or not) than that God has always > existed. See above. Simpler != correct. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 07:45:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12074 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:45:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12064 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:45:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10426; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:45:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03820; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:45:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:45:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711121545.IAA03820@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711121434.JAA03780@gatekeeper.itribe.net> References: <199711120628.XAA02195@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711121434.JAA03780@gatekeeper.itribe.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > In my opinion, it takes a whole lot less Faith to believe there is some > > design to what we call life than it all happened by pure accident or > > chance. > > And why is that exactly? In an infinite universe, anything that can > happen, probably will happen at one or multiple points. And as you > pointed out in a previous post, the universe is infinite. But, getting all of these 'probably' togethers into a single system such that they are all put together into the highly complex system we know as Earth stretches my ability in 'chance' beyond it's ability to believe it can happen. There are too many billions orders of magnitude for me to pass it off as chance. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 07:51:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12468 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:51:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12461 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:51:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08701; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:42:50 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA25918; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:42:45 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971112164245.26982@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:42:45 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Nate Williams Cc: Eivind Eklund , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120011.RAA19556@rocky.mt.sri.com> <19971112021408.64619@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120225.TAA01027@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e In-Reply-To: <199711120225.TAA01027@rocky.mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 07:25:24PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Eivind Eklund] > > NO predictability? I see a definite statistic predictability; e.g, I > > can predict the likelihood that you're going to answer more messages > > based on the number of messages you've answered before. [Nate Williams] > Not necessarily so, since I may give up in frustration and all of you to > my mail forwarder so I'm not bothered by it. Seriously, humans > are fickle beings. Science don't give exact predicitons. Science give statistical likelyhood of something occurring. If you want exact results, you're in the business of maths, not science :-) My claim is that some aspects of human behaviour (possibly all) are statistically predictable. I don't think an attempt at denying this will get you anywhere. > > It isn't an exact prediction, but I can predict that SOMEBODY is going > > to answer post a message to the freebsd-hackers list in the next week > > with (so far) 100% reliability. That's human behavior, too :-) > > Actually, depending on the question, it may go totally unanswered if the > person/people capable of answering doesn't care, is too busy, or are > annoyed. You can't depend on human behavior. I'm not talking about any single message - I'm talking about the likelyhood that there is going to come _A_ message to the -hackers list. Any message. So far, the prediction that one will come in the next week has always turned out true :-) > > I can predict that you're either going to eat food within the next six > > months unless you die. That's a prediction on your personal behavior. > > Now you're being silly. I don't consider 'eating' a behavior, since > it's a requirment. A requirement for what? Continued survival? The attempt to survive is a common behaviour, and fairly predictable, too. But why wouldn't it be a behaviour? And no, I'm not being silly, if your claim is that no part of human behaviour is predictable. Another prediction: More than 70% chance of you using a computer in the next 6 months. Isn't that a behaviour, either? Unless you defined behaviour to be only that which is not predictable, you're not going to get anywhere. And if you choose to use that definition you will find that humans have very little behaviour :-) (Besides that, it is a circle definition). > Bet you can't predict what I'm going to eat in the next 6 months > based on my previous diet. Not in exact detail, no, but I'd say I was fairly likely to be able to predict some of it (ie, even without knowing your diet, just the culture you live in, I'd say it is an over 20% chance that you're going to eat something containing corn in the next six months). > > I don't believe in telepathy as-of-yet. I just find it an easier pill > > to swallow than something that must by definition _also_ include an > > unknown mode of communication, which is what telepathy would be. Call > > it the 'smaller hypothesis'. > > Why is it smaller? Telepathy: Unknown mode of communication between human beings. God: Unknown mode of communication between human beings, AND omni-powered, omni-present sentinent being. Having a christian God that respond to prayer would involve having some form of communication to Him, and that communcation is as far as I've understood not limited to the presently known forms of communication. It also involve some form of intervention with the patients; that is another form of communication. The minimal size of this involve an extra form of communication AND a God, while telepathy involve only an extra form of communication. > > And I can't see how telepathy would need to be completely > > un-quantifiable? I can see scores of ways to quantify it, and > > probably measure it if it do exist. The fact that it hasn't been > > shown in a repeatable experiment yet seems to show that it (if it > > indeed exists) is fairly elusive, though. > > In the same manner as the existance of God, yes. :) Sure. Just to repeat: I _do not_ consider religious people silly. Not as a group, anyway. I consider them to have a self-reinforcing belief in something that ultimately is unprovable and not isn't subject to rational reasoning. Something that in the end comes down to pure faith; something that doesn't have strong enough indications of being true that I'll accept it as true, but that _can't_ be shown to be false. Eivind, wondering if he is communicating clearly here. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 07:55:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12800 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12795 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:55:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711121556.KAA04392@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:53:39 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711121545.IAA03820@rocky.mt.sri.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > In my opinion, it takes a whole lot less Faith to believe there is some > > > design to what we call life than it all happened by pure accident or > > > chance. > > > > And why is that exactly? In an infinite universe, anything that can > > happen, probably will happen at one or multiple points. And as you > > pointed out in a previous post, the universe is infinite. > > But, getting all of these 'probably' togethers into a single system such > that they are all put together into the highly complex system we know as > Earth stretches my ability in 'chance' beyond it's ability to believe it > can happen. There are too many billions orders of magnitude for me to > pass it off as chance. > > > > Nate > In an infinite system, you are guaranteed to have every possible combination at least once. Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:05:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13507 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:05:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from schenectady.netmonger.net (schenectady.netmonger.net [209.54.21.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13500 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:05:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from postmaster@schenectady.netmonger.net) Received: (from news@localhost) by schenectady.netmonger.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA11006 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from GATEWAY by schenectady.netmonger.net with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 12 Nov 1997 15:36:59 GMT From: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Message-ID: <64cier$a60$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Organization: NetMonger Communications Subject: Pentium bug (really) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I either joined this mailing list too late or joined the wrong mailing lists. Since I'm in charge of an ISP that provides shell accounts, I am on the brink of making a rather important decision. I am pretty sick of Intel, so replacing our P166s with K6s is somewhat attractive. Still, BSDI claims that Intel has helped them to develop a workaround (which they're not at liberty to explain in detail). Even if Intel isn't being cooperative with the free software community, it is plausible that "a workaround exists" implies "someone will find it and publish it". Of course, this is all moot if I missed the announcement that FreeBSD already has the same fix. Anyway, the big question is.. does it or might it in the near future? -- = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:08:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13704 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from keymaster.fsl.noaa.gov (root@keymaster.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13615 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:08:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@fsl.noaa.gov) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (root@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by keymaster.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04994; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:07:47 GMT Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (auk.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.124]) by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00968; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:07:42 GMT Message-ID: <3469D44C.B1D829B@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:07:40 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/725) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Albrecht CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? References: <000701bce570$9ed09960$0100a8c0@einstein.cybersurf.net> <199711120429.WAA19960@zuhause.mn.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msBEAADEC3E2F921C03100A38B" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msBEAADEC3E2F921C03100A38B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sorry to restart this thread, but I was wondering if any of the WMs > other than olvwm support pushtack in the frame menu so that pop-up > windows stick around after one clicks on the "OK" (or whatever) button > that normally causes the window to go away. I'm not all that fond of > olvwm, but that's one thing I liked about it. OpenLook achieves that with the WM_DELETE_WINDOW protocol, so you can use just about any window manager out there. For example, mwm users would choose "Close" to achieve the same effect. --Sean --------------msBEAADEC3E2F921C03100A38B Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIJ7wYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIJ4DCCCdwCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC CF0wggOnMIIDEKADAgECAhBj502a3twBT/LCpgZ6QudjMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMGIxETAP BgNVBAcTCEludGVybmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVy aVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjAeFw05NzEwMTIwMDAw MDBaFw05NzEyMTEyMzU5NTlaMIIBCjERMA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZl cmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytWZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVh bCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvQ1BT IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk2MSYwJAYDVQQLEx1EaWdpdGFsIElEIENs YXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZTETMBEGA1UEAxMKU2VhbiBLZWxseTEhMB8GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYS a2VsbHlAZnNsLm5vYWEuZ292MFwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADSwAwSAJBAKphCYhEbOUvzq20 z3+cC8OkYT2Lcs0z+ODDVpjFnWCKCLh+BILe0XF7sc5k8qgCKJj8zSkXh0qUszg0qkj7Y/sC AwEAAaOB9zCB9DAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMIGvBgNVHSAEgacwgDCABgtghkgBhvhFAQcBATCAMCgG CCsGAQUFBwIBFhxodHRwczovL3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vQ1BTMGIGCCsGAQUFBwICMFYw FRYOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4wAwIBARo9VmVyaVNpZ24ncyBDUFMgaW5jb3JwLiBieSByZWZl cmVuY2UgbGlhYi4gbHRkLiAoYyk5NyBWZXJpU2lnbgAAAAAAADARBglghkgBhvhCAQEEBAMC B4AwEAYKYIZIAYb4RQEGAwQCFgAwEAYKYIZIAYb4RQEGBgQCFgAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAD gYEAZ96OwJ1/XU49jjARQfjI1ucJA14GcGQQ8ZL1SvW20Wjlh9dO4PLuyR4ce67brOC/oLfw c/IW7xDgnHLdduQlp5tIOYn0vieGKbvQt1IllDnq+YzB6RTeqhR/OeAu6nh7gRVLTa3/LOr2 E1qJbdPV16Z84N6xUnO8mPEiUntiS30wggJ5MIIB4qADAgECAhBSHzUd8nB+ACu+ylmHBNU5 MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5j LjE3MDUGA1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhv cml0eTAeFw05NjA2MjcwMDAwMDBaFw05OTA2MjcyMzU5NTlaMGIxETAPBgNVBAcTCEludGVy bmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3Mg MSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkC gYEAthSmz03QBQ3YyiPQb6q0KZJjjiz4b5bXLp12SxGxNo1XycP9HMa6/h4IujPKleq+41vN Bqi3eR1EKu1z8rFSg2gQcGSR1z5r+fddnRRDm26XRZiBR9Ety927ctdMP3Gq4kDyVDm8Fu7P fOy62z9sKrMWsYYSna6TNNW41dD3PqkCAwEAAaMzMDEwDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBATALBgNV HQ8EBAMCAQYwEQYJYIZIAYb4QgEBBAQDAgEGMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAA4GBAMH69wLnV8oR dcacDPord0+HRRc749LB2g9YOY6ulZkDoaihOP55mpMXC5eGOcfKaDRmu8eIRfbIDAXuvpcl 7+DUbuR/nXZczn26FKKuC5/7Z1tIpWclrxlkiPZy2CknqjcSarEoryeDGGVsje1Ank3EeKiG 7OksUL+m+Q3bsKZKMIICMTCCAZoCBQKkAAABMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE3MDUGA1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMg UHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTAeFw05NjAxMjkwMDAwMDBaFw05OTEy MzEyMzU5NTlaMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE3MDUG A1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTCB nzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEA5Rm/baNWYS2ZSHH2Z965jeu3noaACpEO+jgl r0aIguVzqKCbJF0NH8xlbgyw0FaEGIeaBpsQoXPftFg5a27B9hXVqKg/qhIGjTGsf7A01480 Z4gJzRQR4k5FVmkfeAKA2txHkSm7NsljXMXg1y2He6G3MrB7MLoqLzGq7qNn2tsCAwEAATAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQBSc7qaVdzcP4J9sJCYYiqCTHYAbiU91cIJcFcBDA93Hxih+xxg DqB1O0khQf6nXC1MQknT/yjYjOqd/skH4neCUyPeVfPORJP6+ky9yjbzW2aynsjyDF5e1KG0 IQkzyjtZ/JLCOPyt2ZYk4C36oyn1M2h4TrS8n2k14qiYlHM7xDGCAVowggFWAgEBMHYwYjER MA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytW ZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyAhBj502a3twBT/LC pgZ6QudjMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgfTAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3 DQEJBTEPFw05NzExMTIxNjA3NDBaMB4GCSqGSIb3DQEJDzERMA8wDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgw IwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFPDixa4C/nrWUP3VRZTCqXxBfI2gMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABEB3 eunsLpRTu5KZ6DbIDJvSFECITeIbv+OO3lWLIp83jsUYHiNLfE3UStDY8LlZD6B16RqtcN/5 +UGRPaGm08qX --------------msBEAADEC3E2F921C03100A38B-- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:19:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14502 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:19:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14486 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA29580; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:16:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029576; Wed, 12 Nov 97 01:16:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3469D663.948@PartsNow.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:16:35 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711120110.SAA17635@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > So, you've somehow *proven* Godel's _Theorem_?!? > > Do tell... 8-) 8-). > I've been reading too many fugues. :) My understanding is that the basic premise that I stated was considered valid. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:28:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15205 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:28:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15181 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:28:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA29640; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:25:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029629; Wed, 12 Nov 97 01:25:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3469D895.7DB8@PartsNow.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:25:57 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: Terry Lambert , perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <3468FAD1.49A8@PartsNow.com> <199711120153.SAA20048@usr04.primenet.com> <19971112030023.06691@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 01:53:16AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > As I remember, the prayer experiment was very well prepared. The > > > pray-ees didn't know they were being prayed for, and the pray-er's > > > didn't know who they were praying for, except a first name and a general > > > description of the problem. The groups were statistically equal, and > > > relatively large. If I remember [too many bosses whizzing past FTL, > > > Amancio], there were a total of 400 in the study. > > > > How can you seperate the telepathy theory from the God theory with this > > set up? > > > > The researchers should have lied about the names, or given only number, > > and/or not stated the symptom(s). > > This one is GOOD. I'd have liked them to pray by number, with the > number referencing a random list mapping to names stored in a computer > somewhere, and with about half as many numbers as there were people. > > God is allseeing, rigth? Then the complex mapping should be > inconsequential. > I agree there's room for more experiment. It did make it into the 'Journal of the AMA' and they're almost as rigorous as 'Science' before they will allow anything that even hints at 'quakery' into that rag. I found numerous references to this study; it's commonly quoted. > OTOH, I don't claim to know God's mind (if he exists). He might > refuse to participate in such a complex experiment, thinking it shows > a lack of faith. > The Bible certainly gives references to support _that_ confounding conundrum. The Bible says He expects us to believe by faith alone, and my responses from Him in my personal life experiences seem to corroborate that. Doesn't say we shouldn't use our best 'scientific' judgement to _guess_ what's coming next, though... :) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15421 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dn800e0.fingerhut.com (dn800e0-ext.fingerhut.com [204.221.45.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15401 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:30:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Bruce.Albrecht@seag.fingerhut.com) Received: from dn800e0.fingerhut.com (root@localhost) by dn800e0.fingerhut.com with ESMTP id KAA19406; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:33:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from seag.fingerhut.com (GF007E0.SEAG.fingerhut.com [151.210.140.7]) by dn800e0.fingerhut.com with SMTP id KAA19402; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:33:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from gf006e0.seag.fingerhut.com by seag.fingerhut.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA26662; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:10 -0600 Received: by gf006e0.seag.fingerhut.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA27012; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:06 -0600 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199711121630.KAA27012@gf006e0.seag.fingerhut.com> From: Bruce Albrecht To: Sean Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? In-Reply-To: <3469D44C.B1D829B@fsl.noaa.gov> References: <000701bce570$9ed09960$0100a8c0@einstein.cybersurf.net> <199711120429.WAA19960@zuhause.mn.org> <3469D44C.B1D829B@fsl.noaa.gov> X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Kelly writes: > [1 ] > > Sorry to restart this thread, but I was wondering if any of the WMs > > other than olvwm support pushtack in the frame menu so that pop-up > > windows stick around after one clicks on the "OK" (or whatever) button > > that normally causes the window to go away. I'm not all that fond of > > olvwm, but that's one thing I liked about it. > > OpenLook achieves that with the WM_DELETE_WINDOW protocol, so you can use > just about any window manager out there. For example, mwm users would > choose "Close" to achieve the same effect. I don't know the exact mechanics, but the olvwm feature I was referring to allows one to indicate that the window should not go away even if the program deletes it. Sort of the opposite of "Close". From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:41:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16187 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [193.117.77.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16129; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21073; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:37:31 GMT Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00938; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:43:01 GMT Message-ID: <19971112164300.34838@iii.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:43:00 +0000 To: Brian Somers Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recommendation for a UK based ISP References: <19971112101725.23103@iii.co.uk> <199711121216.MAA29415@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199711121216.MAA29415@awfulhak.demon.co.uk>; from Brian Somers on Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 12:16:29PM +0000 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 12:16:29PM +0000, Brian Somers wrote: > Demon systems (www.demon.net) provide all this for #10+VAT (#11.75) > per month. They do almost all. My two sticking points with Demon are: 1. Their Perl version is 5.003. There were some important OO changes between 5.003 and 5.004, and so far, they don't seem inclined to upgrade. 2. They won't let you telnet to a shell on your web account that remotely reflects the environment your CGI script will be running in. It's much easier to debug a CGI that way. The alternative[1] of - write - upload - test in a browser - realise something's not quite right, because of the difference between my test environment and their server, so go to step 1 will drive me up the wall, as well as increasing my on line charges. According to my inside contact at Demon (who may or may not be reading this list, if he is, then "Hi") Demon have no immediate plans to fix point 1, and will categorically not do point 2. I had a lovely set up at my last place via a company called Atlas Internet. They basically said "OK, here's what your Apache virtual server config looks like, here's your docroot, here's your cgi-bin directory, now don't come asking silly questions." Suited me fine. Unfortunately, they've now aimed themselves purely at the business market. N [1] The other alternative, writing code that "works first time" is a nice goal, but I prefer to live in the real world. -- --+==[ Nik Clayton is Just Another Perl Hacker at Interactive Investor ]==+-- It is easier to seek forgiveness than permission From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:42:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16268 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from keymaster.fsl.noaa.gov (root@keymaster.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16262 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@fsl.noaa.gov) Received: from cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (root@cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.101]) by keymaster.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05128; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:42:13 GMT Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (auk.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.60.124]) by cardinal.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06273; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:42:13 GMT Message-ID: <3469DC64.AB8D04DE@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:42:12 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/725) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Albrecht CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? References: <000701bce570$9ed09960$0100a8c0@einstein.cybersurf.net> <199711120429.WAA19960@zuhause.mn.org> <3469D44C.B1D829B@fsl.noaa.gov> <199711121630.KAA27012@gf006e0.seag.fingerhut.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msE1AAD06B1FF2FB997A715857" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msE1AAD06B1FF2FB997A715857 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > OpenLook achieves that with the WM_DELETE_WINDOW protocol, so you can use > > just about any window manager out there. For example, mwm users would > > choose "Close" to achieve the same effect. > > I don't know the exact mechanics, but the olvwm feature I was referring to > allows one to indicate that the window should not go away even if the > program deletes it. Sort of the opposite of "Close". Ah. I should actually *read* your message before replying. :-) Sorry! I think you're stuck with olvwm ... :-( --Sean --------------msE1AAD06B1FF2FB997A715857 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIJ7wYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIJ4DCCCdwCAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC CF0wggOnMIIDEKADAgECAhBj502a3twBT/LCpgZ6QudjMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMGIxETAP BgNVBAcTCEludGVybmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVy aVNpZ24gQ2xhc3MgMSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjAeFw05NzEwMTIwMDAw MDBaFw05NzEyMTEyMzU5NTlaMIIBCjERMA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZl cmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytWZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVh bCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyMUYwRAYDVQQLEz13d3cudmVyaXNpZ24uY29tL3JlcG9zaXRvcnkvQ1BT IEluY29ycC4gYnkgUmVmLixMSUFCLkxURChjKTk2MSYwJAYDVQQLEx1EaWdpdGFsIElEIENs YXNzIDEgLSBOZXRzY2FwZTETMBEGA1UEAxMKU2VhbiBLZWxseTEhMB8GCSqGSIb3DQEJARYS a2VsbHlAZnNsLm5vYWEuZ292MFwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADSwAwSAJBAKphCYhEbOUvzq20 z3+cC8OkYT2Lcs0z+ODDVpjFnWCKCLh+BILe0XF7sc5k8qgCKJj8zSkXh0qUszg0qkj7Y/sC AwEAAaOB9zCB9DAJBgNVHRMEAjAAMIGvBgNVHSAEgacwgDCABgtghkgBhvhFAQcBATCAMCgG CCsGAQUFBwIBFhxodHRwczovL3d3dy52ZXJpc2lnbi5jb20vQ1BTMGIGCCsGAQUFBwICMFYw FRYOVmVyaVNpZ24sIEluYy4wAwIBARo9VmVyaVNpZ24ncyBDUFMgaW5jb3JwLiBieSByZWZl cmVuY2UgbGlhYi4gbHRkLiAoYyk5NyBWZXJpU2lnbgAAAAAAADARBglghkgBhvhCAQEEBAMC B4AwEAYKYIZIAYb4RQEGAwQCFgAwEAYKYIZIAYb4RQEGBgQCFgAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAD gYEAZ96OwJ1/XU49jjARQfjI1ucJA14GcGQQ8ZL1SvW20Wjlh9dO4PLuyR4ce67brOC/oLfw c/IW7xDgnHLdduQlp5tIOYn0vieGKbvQt1IllDnq+YzB6RTeqhR/OeAu6nh7gRVLTa3/LOr2 E1qJbdPV16Z84N6xUnO8mPEiUntiS30wggJ5MIIB4qADAgECAhBSHzUd8nB+ACu+ylmHBNU5 MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5j LjE3MDUGA1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhv cml0eTAeFw05NjA2MjcwMDAwMDBaFw05OTA2MjcyMzU5NTlaMGIxETAPBgNVBAcTCEludGVy bmV0MRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE0MDIGA1UECxMrVmVyaVNpZ24gQ2xhc3Mg MSBDQSAtIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlcjCBnzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkC gYEAthSmz03QBQ3YyiPQb6q0KZJjjiz4b5bXLp12SxGxNo1XycP9HMa6/h4IujPKleq+41vN Bqi3eR1EKu1z8rFSg2gQcGSR1z5r+fddnRRDm26XRZiBR9Ety927ctdMP3Gq4kDyVDm8Fu7P fOy62z9sKrMWsYYSna6TNNW41dD3PqkCAwEAAaMzMDEwDwYDVR0TBAgwBgEB/wIBATALBgNV HQ8EBAMCAQYwEQYJYIZIAYb4QgEBBAQDAgEGMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAA4GBAMH69wLnV8oR dcacDPord0+HRRc749LB2g9YOY6ulZkDoaihOP55mpMXC5eGOcfKaDRmu8eIRfbIDAXuvpcl 7+DUbuR/nXZczn26FKKuC5/7Z1tIpWclrxlkiPZy2CknqjcSarEoryeDGGVsje1Ank3EeKiG 7OksUL+m+Q3bsKZKMIICMTCCAZoCBQKkAAABMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAgUAMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE3MDUGA1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMg UHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTAeFw05NjAxMjkwMDAwMDBaFw05OTEy MzEyMzU5NTlaMF8xCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5WZXJpU2lnbiwgSW5jLjE3MDUG A1UECxMuQ2xhc3MgMSBQdWJsaWMgUHJpbWFyeSBDZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTCB nzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOBjQAwgYkCgYEA5Rm/baNWYS2ZSHH2Z965jeu3noaACpEO+jgl r0aIguVzqKCbJF0NH8xlbgyw0FaEGIeaBpsQoXPftFg5a27B9hXVqKg/qhIGjTGsf7A01480 Z4gJzRQR4k5FVmkfeAKA2txHkSm7NsljXMXg1y2He6G3MrB7MLoqLzGq7qNn2tsCAwEAATAN BgkqhkiG9w0BAQIFAAOBgQBSc7qaVdzcP4J9sJCYYiqCTHYAbiU91cIJcFcBDA93Hxih+xxg DqB1O0khQf6nXC1MQknT/yjYjOqd/skH4neCUyPeVfPORJP6+ky9yjbzW2aynsjyDF5e1KG0 IQkzyjtZ/JLCOPyt2ZYk4C36oyn1M2h4TrS8n2k14qiYlHM7xDGCAVowggFWAgEBMHYwYjER MA8GA1UEBxMISW50ZXJuZXQxFzAVBgNVBAoTDlZlcmlTaWduLCBJbmMuMTQwMgYDVQQLEytW ZXJpU2lnbiBDbGFzcyAxIENBIC0gSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBTdWJzY3JpYmVyAhBj502a3twBT/LC pgZ6QudjMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgfTAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3 DQEJBTEPFw05NzExMTIxNjQyMTJaMB4GCSqGSIb3DQEJDzERMA8wDQYIKoZIhvcNAwICASgw IwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMRYEFMbhv14aOykjGWP+bWU4Va49fSGMMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABEAi swzx350xL/1ToTZF+T/d9qYX2zIzSBh5wnIYOt17nkfAkuLjDJSF5ibRGHs2AgBW01/x94YR wuTPIDiaPSTO --------------msE1AAD06B1FF2FB997A715857-- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:43:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16355 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16346 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA29757; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:41:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029753; Wed, 12 Nov 97 01:40:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3469DC37.5781@PartsNow.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:41:27 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro Giffuni S." CC: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> <34690A37.236C9A1B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Pedro] > The division between science, witchcraft and religion started becoming > clear only with Galileo. All seems to show that Galileo believed in God, > but not in the Church. IMO that's much the essence of the modern > conception. There's a growing body of fundamentalist Christians who also have a real problem with the Pope's armies. Jesus is the only true intermediary, not Mary, various Saints or the Priests. Ditto Mormonism and the other Apostates who believe that Godly grace and power can be passed on. > > (Why does Jordan's rants always end up in heated irrelevant discussions > ? :-) ) Jeez, did HE start this??? :) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:47:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16699 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16681 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA29810; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:45:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029799; Wed, 12 Nov 97 01:44:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3469DD28.55CF@PartsNow.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:45:28 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: ac199@hwcn.org, Eivind Eklund , tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120235.TAA01108@rocky.mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Basically, I believe that science paints one portion of the 'picture' of > life, and faith paints another (equally important) part. > > Nate Well put... back to work. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:49:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16824 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16691; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:47:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199711121647.IAA16691@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro Giffuni S.) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:47:45 -0800 (PST) Cc: perhaps@yes.no, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <34690A37.236C9A1B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro Giffuni S." at Nov 12, 97 01:45:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I would consider the predictive part interesting...If you know you will who are we, what are we, that a devine being should provide us predictive information? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:51:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17029 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:51:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17019 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:51:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA15005 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:50:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga10-22.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.150) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014993; Wed Nov 12 10:50:35 1997 Message-ID: <3469DE50.AF9C36E1@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:50:24 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <199711111935.MAA17390@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711112339.AAA23291@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120011.RAA19556@rocky.mt.sri.com> <19971112021408.64619@bitbox.follo.net> <199711120225.TAA01027@rocky.mt.sri.com> <19971112164245.26982@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk oooowww... my head is hurting... From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 08:52:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17232 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17104; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:52:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199711121652.IAA17104@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:52:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: eivind@bitbox.follo.net, tlambert@primenet.com, don@PartsNow.com, perhaps@yes.no, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Nov 11, 97 10:05:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." > "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." > "If God makes me win $1 000 000 in the lottery tomorrow, then I > will believe in him forever more." > > [next day] > > "But only if I win another $1 000 000..." ;), take a look at the boobk of jonah, its only 4 chapters, if i remember correctly. advanced students may want to read the book of job, but it si much more difficult. and longer. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 09:04:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18257 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:04:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18242 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:04:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA16156; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:03:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga8-01.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.65) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016109; Wed Nov 12 11:02:49 1997 Message-ID: <3469E12E.7C08C8C3@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:02:38 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Masto CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pentium bug (really) References: <64cier$a60$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher Masto wrote: > > I either joined this mailing list too late or joined the wrong mailing > lists. Since I'm in charge of an ISP that provides shell accounts, I > am on the brink of making a rather important decision. I am pretty > sick of Intel, so replacing our P166s with K6s is somewhat attractive. > Still, BSDI claims that Intel has helped them to develop a workaround > (which they're not at liberty to explain in detail). Even if Intel > isn't being cooperative with the free software community, it is > plausible that "a workaround exists" implies "someone will find it and > publish it". > > Of course, this is all moot if I missed the announcement that FreeBSD > already has the same fix. Anyway, the big question is.. does it or > might it in the near future? > -- > = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = > = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = > = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = Seems to me they would have to examine the executable for the pattern in question before executing it... A malicious person could subvert that quite easily, right? Skeptical, Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 09:13:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18858 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:13:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18844 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03432; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:12:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma002871; Wed, 12 Nov 97 11:10:36 -0600 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA05797; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:10:36 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:10:35 -0600 (CST) From: Kyle Mestery To: Nate Williams cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711121535.IAA03735@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > Just because you have trouble with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. > Your personal feelings have nothing to do with the existance of lack > thereof of God or gods. If he/she/it truly exists, your beliefs don't > somehow make it go away. > And in the same token, just because you believe in something doesn't make it exist to someone else. I find it hard to believe that we must somehow "not not-believe" everything we hear in life. That is waht I am getting from your message, and it makes no sense at all. Think about it. If we did that, then what the heck do we base our beliefs on? Because we can't discount anything, everything is real! You tell me something, and just because I dont believe, it doesnt make it not exist, right? So, I should suddenly ponder the possibility it is there? Anyone heard of Columbus? :) ** Trying to keep this lighhearted...:) ** Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group 7600 Boone Ave. N., Minneapolis, MN 55428 mesteka@anubis.network.com, mestery@winternet.com "You do not greet Death, you punch him in the throat repeatedly until he drags you away." --No Fear From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 09:26:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19785 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:26:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19769 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17396; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971112122617.23109@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:17 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pentium bug (really) References: <64cier$a60$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> <3469E12E.7C08C8C3@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.87.4 In-Reply-To: <3469E12E.7C08C8C3@ix.netcom.com>; from Jerry Hicks on Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 12:02:38PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 12:02:38PM -0500, Jerry Hicks wrote: > Christopher Masto wrote: > > > > I either joined this mailing list too late or joined the wrong mailing > > lists. Since I'm in charge of an ISP that provides shell accounts, I > > am on the brink of making a rather important decision. I am pretty > > sick of Intel, so replacing our P166s with K6s is somewhat attractive. > > Still, BSDI claims that Intel has helped them to develop a workaround > > (which they're not at liberty to explain in detail). Even if Intel > > isn't being cooperative with the free software community, it is > > plausible that "a workaround exists" implies "someone will find it and > > publish it". > > > > Of course, this is all moot if I missed the announcement that FreeBSD > > already has the same fix. Anyway, the big question is.. does it or > > might it in the near future? > > Seems to me they would have to examine the executable for the pattern in > question before executing it... > > A malicious person could subvert that quite easily, right? > > Skeptical, > > Jerry Hicks > jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com The fact is that they have a workaround. The bug is bizzare, the workaround may be just as bizzare - perhaps the failure doesn't occur given certain register settings that don't affect anything else.. I don't know, and I'm not particularly interested in speculating on how it works. I would consider getting the patch and disassembling it, but at this time I'd rather not paint myself into a legal corner. -- = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = v---(cut here)---v -- yourname@some.dumb.host.com "Keep in mind that anything Kibo says makes a great sig." -- Kibo ^---(cut here)---^ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 09:35:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20463 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20454 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:35:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17712; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:35:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19971112123524.12698@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:35:24 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BSDI Pentium hang workaround Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.87.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I didn't post the "BSDI has a workaround, does anyone think FreeBSD will?" thing to generate skepticism about the existence of the workaround. In any case, here is their message. Note the two files involved. Supposedly disabling L1 cache prevents the problem from happening, but I highly doubt anyone would seriously release that as a "fix", since it would basically render the machine unusable. They don't say anything about expecting a slowdown. ------- Forwarded Message To: bsdi-users@bsdi.com Subject: Beta test of Pentium hang work-around for BSD/OS 3.1 (and 3.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:38:48 -0700 From: Jeff Polk Sender: owner-bsdi-users@mailinglists.org Precedence: bulk X-Sender: Jeff Polk X-UIDL: fb8659ed152bd2ba9912c603b6a1b837 As many of you probably know, a bug was recently discovered in the Pentium CPU that causes the CPU to hang when a certain instruction is executed. This bug has been widely reported in mailing lists and news groups. The bug enables an unprivileged user to hang the system, requiring the system to be reset or power-cycled. With information provided by Intel, BSDI has developed a workaround for this problem. A beta version of the mod for BSD/OS version 3.1 is now available for testing from ftp://ftp.bsdi.com/bsdi/patches/patches-3.1/M310-hangfix This mod may also be applied to 3.0 based systems. The workaround is enabled only on P5 processors, and should not be necessary on Pentium Pro, Pentium II or non-Intel CPUs. The mod is currently available only in binary form. We anticipate general release of the mod within a day or so. We are interested in hearing of any problems experienced with this change. We are also interested in hearing about testing on any non-Intel Pentium-compatible systems. Please send any reports to bsdi-hang-beta@BSDI.COM We are not at liberty to discuss the mechanism of the workaround at this time. If you are installing the mod in a source kernel tree, you will need to copy the files sys/i386/OBJ/{machdep.o,locore.o} to your kernel compile directory before rebuilding your kernel. Jeff - -- /\ Jeff Polk Berkeley Software Design, Inc. (BSDI) /\/ \ polk@BSDI.COM 5575 Tech Center Dr. #110, Colo Spgs, CO 80919 - -- To unsubscribe from this list, send 'unsubscribe' in the body of an e-mail message to 'bsdi-users-request@mailinglists.org' ------- End of Forwarded Message -- = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = v---(cut here)---v -- yourname@some.dumb.host.com "Keep in mind that anything Kibo says makes a great sig." -- Kibo ^---(cut here)---^ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 09:52:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21506 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21491 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:52:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11352; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:51:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04568; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:51:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:51:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711121751.KAA04568@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Kyle Mestery Cc: Nate Williams , Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: References: <199711121535.IAA03735@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Just because you have trouble with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. > > Your personal feelings have nothing to do with the existance of lack > > thereof of God or gods. If he/she/it truly exists, your beliefs don't > > somehow make it go away. > > > > And in the same token, just because you believe in something doesn't make > it exist to someone else. Right, but saying that it *can't* exist because of your personal feelings is foolishness. The possibility of the existance of God is based on knowledge that 'I' don't have absolute knowledge on the subject, so therefore it's possible that *something* may exist, but there's not enough 'quantifiable' information to make a scientific proof, hence the need for Faith. > did that, then what the heck do we base our beliefs on? Because we can't > discount anything, everything is real! No, I'm saying that the possibility exists *unless* you have complete knowledge of the problem. For example, I can tell you with assurance that my dog is at my house, and that you can verify this is true by searching my entire house. You have all the information available to you, so if you find my dog you've verified the truth of the statement, and if you don't find my dog, you've verified that I was lying to you. > You tell me something, and just because I dont believe, it doesnt make > it not exist, right? So, I should suddenly ponder the possibility it > is there? Yes, you should ponder the possibility that it is there, because you don't have absolute knowledge of the 'problem space'. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:00:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22426 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:00:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22416 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01114; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:34:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711121734.JAA01114@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: don@PartsNow.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:08:50 GMT." <199711120108.SAA17561@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:34:29 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If light can not escape from a black hole then how much does a photon weight ? Curious, should faster than the speed of lights particles should exist what will be their effect if such a particle collided with a particle? Cheers, Amancio > > Actually, I have a simpler question how can anyone describe > > singularity -- where the laws of physics as we now today > > breakdown. Assuming of course that black holes and singularity > > exists.... > > A black hole is not a singularity, per se, except for the idea that > that ds/dt goes to zero at the Schwartzchild Radius (which is > inside the event horizon). > > If you think about it, once the escape velocity is the speed of light, > then the Lorentz Transformation implies that all matter falling into > the hole will cease experiencing time at that point. If it can't > experience time, it can't experience velocity. The amount of time > that would have to necessarily pass for it to reach this point exceeds > by O(1) infinity the age of the universe. > > So technically, nothing has ever fallen *into* a "black hole" ...yet. > > 8-). > > Actually, it's no more nonsensical to think of pair anihillation in > a black hole than it is to think of pair production at the edge of > the event horizon (as we believe is happening at Cygnus XI). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:03:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22585 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:03:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22576 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11450; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04702; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:42 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:02:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711121802.LAA04702@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Terry Lambert , don@partsnow.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711121734.JAA01114@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199711120108.SAA17561@usr04.primenet.com> <199711121734.JAA01114@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If light can not escape from a black hole then how much > does a photon weight ? As much as the # of Angels who can fit on the point of a pin. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:05:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22864 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:05:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22762; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:05:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03318; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:04:43 GMT Message-Id: <199711121804.SAA03318@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: nik@iii.co.uk cc: Brian Somers , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, isp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Recommendation for a UK based ISP In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:43:00 GMT." <19971112164300.34838@iii.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:04:43 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Heh, I didn't even realize I was allowed to run cgis ! I thought it was limited to a counter and a form that gets turned into email. I really ought to pay attention :-) > On Wed, Nov 12, 1997 at 12:16:29PM +0000, Brian Somers wrote: > > Demon systems (www.demon.net) provide all this for #10+VAT (#11.75) > > per month. > > They do almost all. My two sticking points with Demon are: > > 1. Their Perl version is 5.003. There were some important OO changes > between 5.003 and 5.004, and so far, they don't seem inclined to > upgrade. > > 2. They won't let you telnet to a shell on your web account that remotely > reflects the environment your CGI script will be running in. It's > much easier to debug a CGI that way. The alternative[1] of [.....] > N > > [1] The other alternative, writing code that "works first time" is a nice > goal, but I prefer to live in the real world. > -- > --+==[ Nik Clayton is Just Another Perl Hacker at Interactive Investor ]==+-- > It is easier to seek forgiveness than permission -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:10:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23443 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23438 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:10:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11506; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:10:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA04854; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:10:44 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:10:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711121810.LAA04854@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pentium bug (really) In-Reply-To: <64cier$a60$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> References: <64cier$a60$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher Masto writes: > I either joined this mailing list too late or joined the wrong mailing > lists. You joined the wrong list. Freebsd-isp is the list you want, 'chat' is for subjects totally un-related to FreeBSD that 'enthusiasts' talk about as they digress from FreeBSD related material. However... > am on the brink of making a rather important decision. I am pretty > sick of Intel, so replacing our P166s with K6s is somewhat attractive. > Still, BSDI claims that Intel has helped them to develop a workaround > (which they're not at liberty to explain in detail). Even if Intel > isn't being cooperative with the free software community, it is > plausible that "a workaround exists" implies "someone will find it and > publish it". Maybe, but what performance affect does it entail? > Of course, this is all moot if I missed the announcement that FreeBSD > already has the same fix. Anyway, the big question is.. does it or > might it in the near future? It doesn't AFAIK, and 'might' is a pretty useless word here. It might, but as to the chances of it happening, I have *NO* idea. There are some pretty smart people who hack FreeBSD, and if I were Intel I'd want to share that information with folks as widely as possible *IF* the work-around isn't also easily worked-around. Since source distributions are necessary in FreeBSD and such, if the Intel work-around can be easily disabled, then they aren't going to publish how they work around the bug since it wouldn't help them. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:13:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23658 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:13:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23644 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:13:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10424; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:12:35 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA26526; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:11:19 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:11:19 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711121811.TAA26526@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Nate Williams CC: jamie@itribe.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Nate Williams's message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:45:34 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711120628.XAA02195@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711121434.JAA03780@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <199711121545.IAA03820@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > In my opinion, it takes a whole lot less Faith to believe there is some > > > design to what we call life than it all happened by pure accident or > > > chance. > > > > And why is that exactly? In an infinite universe, anything that can > > happen, probably will happen at one or multiple points. And as you > > pointed out in a previous post, the universe is infinite. > > But, getting all of these 'probably' togethers into a single system such > that they are all put together into the highly complex system we know as > Earth stretches my ability in 'chance' beyond it's ability to believe it > can happen. There are too many billions orders of magnitude for me to > pass it off as chance. The universe is the way it is because we're here to see it; just consider all universes as existing. The 'all combinations exists' version is for me a rather small leap of faith after accepting that something can be infinite (which is the really difficult hurdle :-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:23:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24370 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:23:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24242; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:20:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199711121820.KAA24242@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: don@PartsNow.com Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:20:45 -0800 (PST) Cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, perhaps@yes.no, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3469DC37.5781@PartsNow.com> from "Don Wilde" at Nov 12, 97 08:41:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Don Wilde wrote: > > [Pedro] > > The division between science, witchcraft and religion started becoming > > clear only with Galileo. All seems to show that Galileo believed in God, > > but not in the Church. IMO that's much the essence of the modern > > conception. > There's a growing body of fundamentalist Christians who also have a real > problem with the Pope's armies. Jesus is the only true intermediary, not > Mary, various Saints or the Priests. Ditto Mormonism and the other > Apostates who believe that Godly grace and power can be passed on. well, Don, that should fire everybody up for several more rounds of this. perhaps is should create a new mailing list for this and other threads that go far afield from FreeBSD. soap-box@freebsd.org? jmb ps. there are those who believe that each person has a direct relationship with God, no intermediaries at all. ;) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:23:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24399 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:23:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov [141.221.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24394 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:23:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if3-21.ida.net [208.141.171.126]) by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA08670 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:23:22 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:22:49 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pentium bug (really) In-Reply-To: <19971112122617.23109@netmonger.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Christopher Masto wrote: > The fact is that they have a workaround. The bug is bizzare, the > workaround may be just as bizzare - perhaps the failure doesn't occur > given certain register settings that don't affect anything else.. I > don't know, and I'm not particularly interested in speculating on how > it works. I would consider getting the patch and disassembling it, > but at this time I'd rather not paint myself into a legal corner. I can see no reason that Intel would not want such information openly available. On the other hand, if BSDI figured out a fix on their own, they would have an economic incentive (perhaps) to keep it proprietary. Charles Mott From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:24:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24540 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from oldman.steinkamm.com (arne@OldMan.Steinkamm.COM [194.127.175.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24524 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arne@oldman.steinkamm.com) Received: (from arne@localhost) by oldman.steinkamm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20157; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:23:41 +0100 (MET) From: Arne Steinkamm Message-Id: <199711121823.TAA20157@oldman.steinkamm.com> Subject: Re: Pentium bug (really) To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:23:41 +0100 (MET) Cc: chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3469E12E.7C08C8C3@ix.netcom.com> from "Jerry Hicks" at Nov 12, 97 12:02:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Christopher Masto wrote: > > > > I either joined this mailing list too late or joined the wrong mailing > > lists. Since I'm in charge of an ISP that provides shell accounts, I > > am on the brink of making a rather important decision. I am pretty > > sick of Intel, so replacing our P166s with K6s is somewhat attractive. > > Still, BSDI claims that Intel has helped them to develop a workaround > > (which they're not at liberty to explain in detail). Even if Intel > > isn't being cooperative with the free software community, it is > > plausible that "a workaround exists" implies "someone will find it and > > publish it". > > > > Of course, this is all moot if I missed the announcement that FreeBSD > > already has the same fix. Anyway, the big question is.. does it or > > might it in the near future? > > -- > > = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = > > = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = > > = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = > > Seems to me they would have to examine the executable for the pattern in > question before executing it... > > A malicious person could subvert that quite easily, right? > > Skeptical, > > Jerry Hicks > jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com The changes done by bsdi with Intel's help are in locore.s and machdep.c. This sounds like much more than pattern scanning. .//. Arne -- Arne Steinkamm | Mail (MIME): Arne@Steinkamm.COM IRC: Arne Tel.: +49.89.299.756 | URL: http://WWW.Steinkamm.COM/ NIC-Handle: AS306 Robert-Koch-Str. 4 | "There's coffee in that nebula" D-80538 Muenchen | Cptn. Kathryn Janeway, ST:VOY - The Cloud From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:26:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24704 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:26:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24692 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:26:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10556; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:26:17 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA26557; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:26:15 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:26:15 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711121826.TAA26557@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Nate Williams CC: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Nate Williams's message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:50:34 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711120718.AAA02460@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711120731.AAA01244@usr01.primenet.com> <199711120750.AAA02612@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Why do some children raised in the exact same circumstances turn out > > > totally different? > > > > Because they are genetically predestined to do so? > > Nope, see below. > > > > Why do twins with the *exact* same DNA look and act different? > > > > Or your measure of "the exast same circumstances" lacks sufficient > > resoloution for it to be an accurate observation? There has to be > > at least a one cubic foot difference in their perspective. You > > could claim it was environmental. > > But, the environment is similar enough that in many cases their siblings > are more alike in certain behaviors to one twin than the two are alike. Of course. The empirical observation here is that twins that grow up together are more different than twins that grow up apart. Oh, blew your environment hypothesis, did I? The psychologist hypothesis is that people attempt to be unique, to be noticed. This is what best fits facts (not just the way twins behave, either). > No explanation you can come up with can 'wave away' our explain their > behavior in an acceptable manner. Hence, you cannot model human > behavior since it essentially a chaotic system. I've not yet seen you come up with a datapoint that assert this for sufficiently large samples. Many aspects of behavior can easily be explained; not all, but a very large percentage. However, I don't think either of us is really qualified to discuss this - there is a reason why the psychology of personality is a field of it's own :-) > But, even completely chaotic systems exhibit some 'patterns', which > makes is down-right frustrating when you start to rely on those > patterns, or make the assumptions that those patterns are adequate > to fully model the behavior and fall on your face. :) :) The behavior might be made up of enough small parts that it is not practically possible to do all predictions; that doesn't mean they're not deterministic :-) I can't always successfully predict what the result of running simulation programs are either, but that doesn't lead me to claim they are non-deterministic and have a soul :-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:30:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24989 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24977 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:30:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10594; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:30:00 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA26562; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:30:00 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:30:00 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711121830.TAA26562@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Nate Williams CC: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Nate Williams's message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:43:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711120750.AAA02612@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711120909.CAA07713@usr01.primenet.com> <199711121543.IAA03784@rocky.mt.sri.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Should I bring in Brian Handy, who *almost* has a Ph.D in Solar > > > Physics. And, don't think I'm not willing to use/abuse his knowledge > > > and talents. :) :) > > > > Feel free. A Solar Physics person (him) is probably going to be at > > least as well versed on Cosomology as a Quantum Physics person (me), > > and we can both argue ourselves blue about the missing mass, and both > > being outside our specialties, will probably resolve nothing. Then > > we'll have to appeal to authority. Like Hawking. 8-). > > A Sci-Fi writer isn't someone I would consider an authority. Eh - Hawking is a quite respected physicist; as far as I know, he's not written any sci-fi. I'll gladly recommend his 'a breif history of time' - not that that is too relevant to the present discussion :-) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 10:38:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25574 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:38:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25567 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:38:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13059; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:37:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd013035; Wed Nov 12 11:37:48 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01889; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:37:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711121837.LAA01889@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:37:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, perhaps@yes.no, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19971112164245.26982@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Nov 12, 97 04:42:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My claim is that some aspects of human behaviour (possibly all) are > statistically predictable. I don't think an attempt at denying this > will get you anywhere. I predict that this statement has a high probability of describing your future behaviour. 8-). > Telepathy: Unknown mode of communication between human beings. > God: Unknown mode of communication between human beings, AND > omni-powered, omni-present sentinent being. > > Having a christian God that respond to prayer would involve having > some form of communication to Him, and that communcation is as far as > I've understood not limited to the presently known forms of > communication. It also involve some form of intervention with the > patients; that is another form of communication. The minimal size of > this involve an extra form of communication AND a God, while telepathy > involve only an extra form of communication. Actually... Telepathy: Unknown mode of communication between beings God: Unknown mode of communication between beings, AND an as yet undiscovered being, AND unknown mow of presenting action at a distance (God doesn't require an unknown mode of communication between human beings; just because he can "hear" doesn't mean your neighbor Zelda can "hear" you. 8-) 8-)). Maybe God is a 5ESS switch in Trenton, New Jersey... ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 11:06:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28566 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:06:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28553 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:06:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA22949; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:05:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga9-05.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.101) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022781; Wed Nov 12 13:04:20 1997 Message-ID: <3469FDA9.815BB0C0@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:04:09 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Masto CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSDI Pentium hang workaround References: <19971112123524.12698@netmonger.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher Masto wrote: > > I didn't post the "BSDI has a workaround, does anyone think FreeBSD > will?" thing to generate skepticism about the existence of the > workaround. You're right... I should have been more clear. Still skeptical about its effectiveness... Sorry, Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 11:16:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29304 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29291 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:16:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15110; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd015105; Wed Nov 12 12:16:44 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03696; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711121916.MAA03696@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:16:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711121543.IAA03784@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 12, 97 08:43:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > Simpler != correct. > > > > > > > > We've been here. Simpler == provisionally correct in the absence of > > > > empirical evidence to the contrarary. > > > > > > We've been here, but I don't agree to your 'waving of the hands' that > > > claims it's provisionally correct. > > > > It's a definition for a rule set called the "scientific method". > > No, it's not. Again, waving your hands and making bogus claims don't > make it true. OK, *you* define "scientific method", and I will show you how it reduces to "simpler == provisionally correct". > > > But, the environment is similar enough that in many cases their siblings > > > are more alike in certain behaviors to one twin than the two are alike. > > > > I don't accept this statement without empirical evidence to back it; > > can you point to the studies that back this up? > > I know the girls personally. I went to 5 years of college with them, > and also know their brother quite well. (*sigh*, I wanted to marry one > of them, but alas she didn't feel the same way about me....) So you're claiming to be an impartial observer? 8-) [ ... insurance companies never seem to fail ... ] > Actually, in some cases they 'do'. But, they are big enough to swallow > the losses, cancel the policies for everyone in that area and move > onto greener pastures. And, they're not relying on random human > behavior here, but rather very conservative models based on very basic > built-in values, such as not wanting to die. The "survival instinct" is not a value, it's a strange attractor. The reason the insurance companies don't go bankrupt is that they know the historical accuracy of their models, and the historical drift in their models over an actuarial period (the period in time between when they calibrate their model and the time they recalibrate their model). Knowing this, they can charge a "worst case scenario". The reason they make so much money is that the median value is hardly ever the worst case (and even if it were, they'd only make a minimum profit, not "no profit" or "negative profit". > > Yet we cannot observe that which we cannot observe, and therefore we > > must leave it out of our models if we want them to work at predicting > > that which we can observe. > > You hit the nail on the head. You cannot accurately model that which > you can not accurately quantify. By George, I think he's got it. > Science cannot model anything that is not quantifiable, which is one of > the biggest points I've been trying to make here. Well, you're preaching to the choir. ;-). Any true scientist will agree with that last sentence. > Science cannot even begin to answer all of the questions in life, and > believing it can/does leaves you in a 2-D world, with a whole other > dimension missing. I don't know if I agree with this statement. Is the purpose to have a provisional answer for all the questions in life until science can get around to those dark areas you believe are mapped by faith? > A Sci-Fi writer isn't someone I would consider an authority. I think you are confusing Hawking with Sagan. If you could bring Sagan in, though, I'd have to seriously consider the God hypothesis (even though *he* is a science fiction writer), what with him being dead and all... God doing a Rich Little imitation of Sagan is more feasible than God bringing Sagan back, though. ;-). > > But if we fail at that, then we can take the standard cosmological > > question by the roots ("where did the universe come from") to its > > reductio ad absurdum conclusion that it's simpler to say the Universe > > has always existed (steady state or not) than that God has always > > existed. > > See above. Simpler != correct. Simpler != Right, but Simpler == provisionally correct. The reason I keep sticking "provisionally" in front of it is so that you don't confuse me stating correctness of a hypothesis or theorem with correctness of a law. I don't think it's possible to use only a constructivist approach to arrive at "reality" as opposed to only some set of rules which attempt to model "reality". On the other hand, no other approach has come anywhere near to producing the same concrete results as constructivism can. We owe our entire technology to refinements in the mapping between our models and what we in our hubris assume is some objective reality. When I deny your statement "simpler != correct", I'm not saying in the same breath "complex == wrong". Correctness and rightness are seperable attributes. The statements are not antithetical. You can ask someone "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?". When he says "No", that doesn't mean you can assume that he is continuing to beat his wife. Your question contains the hidden assumption that he had started beating his wife. But his "No" answer is correct: to stop, one must first start, and not having started, one can not have stopped. Semantically, it's the difference between "past" and "past perfect" tenses; English doesn't map these well; it's one of the reasons it's a good language for non-Homonym based puns. In Fuzzy Logic, this is called "the law of the excluded middle", and a statement formulated as: (I) not A implies B can't be restated as: (II) not B implies A since it's possible that: (III) not B implies C You can't claim that statement I equals statement II, unless you can prove that the set (A,B) is a spanning set. The assumption that statement I equals statement II is called an "Aristotilain Mean", which is another way of saying "A-ness" and "B-ness" are seperate qualities, one of which must exist, and whose presence or basence is conditioned on a single boolean value. So when I say "simpler == provisionally correct", I'm not attacking the concept of faith, I'm only stating a rule agreed to by the constructivist model science has used with so much success. (Success != Right, either, which should be apparent to any Computer Scientist... 8-)). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 11:24:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29709 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:24:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.5.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29703 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:24:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16318; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:24:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd016291; Wed Nov 12 12:24:17 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04034; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:24:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711121924.MAA04034@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:24:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, don@PartsNow.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199711121734.JAA01114@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Nov 12, 97 09:34:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > If light can not escape from a black hole then how much > does a photon weight ? The X-ray emissions at Cygnus XI are not escaping the black hole, they are an effect of the black hole. Pair production occurs at the event horizon, with one particale falling in, and one particale being ejected with equal and oppisite force. Not more than a tiny fraction of the ejecta actually reach escape velocity, only those moving at the speed of light, or very, very close to it. Like X-rays. > Curious, should faster than the speed of lights particles should > exist what will be their effect if such a particle collided with a particle? Where are those Tachyons... they were here a minute ago, and I'm sure they're going to be here a minute before that... ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 11:27:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29902 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:27:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29895 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:27:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28348; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd028333; Wed Nov 12 12:26:22 1997 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA04161; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:26:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199711121926.MAA04161@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:26:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, tlambert@primenet.com, don@partsnow.com, nate@mt.sri.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711121802.LAA04702@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Nov 12, 97 11:02:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If light can not escape from a black hole then how much > > does a photon weight ? > > As much as the # of Angels who can fit on the point of a pin. :) Actually... 13.6eV, if it came from an S orbital. Is that how many angels can fit on the end of a pin? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 12:14:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04815 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:14:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from iafnl.es.iaf.nl (uucp@iafnl.es.iaf.nl [195.108.17.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04801 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by iafnl.es.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA19336 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:15:12 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA01590 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:02:52 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199711121802.TAA01590@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Platform Port Phlame Wars (was: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal)) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:02:52 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <346926D6.1E12A218@kew.com> from "Drew Derbyshire" at Nov 11, 97 10:47:34 pm X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME8a] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Drew Derbyshire wrote... > Wilko Bulte wrote: > > > > Well, since I own a "Multia" and not a "Miata", I don't really get > > > > how understanding the "Miata" would help me port to the "Multia", > > > > so perhaps you could explain it to me... > > I _DO_ own Miata, and a Pentium, and this thread is headed away from > both, so would all sides find a new subject line for the porting flame > war? (I am mildly interested in the original topic. Silly me.) Better quote a bit more accurately. It was Terry who wrote the above. I only own an ancient Jensen (AXP150) ;-) Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko@yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' ---------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net]BSD Unix --Yoda From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 12:16:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05110 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05096 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from news.iconz.co.nz (status.gen.nz [202.14.100.1]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA132870879365797; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:16:37 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news.iconz.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id JAA30515; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:16:32 +1300 Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06925; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:55:54 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA25532; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:55:53 +1300 (NZDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:55:53 +1300 (NZDT) From: Jonathan Chen To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) In-Reply-To: <199711120534.WAA01986@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > This is more probably due to increased recovery rates due to meditative > > states induced by `prayer-mode' rather than any divine intervention. > > Umm, the people who got better weren't praying, they were being prayed > for, and by people whom they had no contact with. Oops. Next time I'll read it more slowly.. :-) -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "I don't want to achive immortality through my works.. I want to achieve it through not dying" - Woody Allen From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 12:19:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05334 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05294 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:19:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11807; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:19:07 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA28109; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:19:05 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:19:05 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711122019.VAA28109@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: "Pedro Giffuni S." CC: perhaps@yes.no, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: "Pedro Giffuni S."'s message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:45:27 +0000 Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> <34690A37.236C9A1B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Pedro] > Science can only explain trivial things. Those things that are really > important (love, human well being, war, etc...) are always unexplained > from a scientific point of view. Whatchamean? Science can easily create predictive models (what most people call 'explanations' are ways of interpreting predictive models) for all of those phenomena. Science can provide reasonable hypotheses for why love and hate exists, tell some of the neurotransmitters involved, show (chemically/psychologically) partially why and how states of living are considered 'wellbeing' or not. I'm very uncertain what level you want 'explanations' on - if you could clarify, I can try to pour from my never-ending amount of wisdom ;-) (Meaning that I can possibly throw you a pointer). > > The belief in God is likely to go outside proof - He can't be > > disproved, but it seems unlikely that He will be proved anytime soon > > :-) > > > There's an easy way to be convinced of the existance of God (at a > personal level, of course). Get yourself possesed and visit an exorcist > :-). > Seriously speaking, those things happen, and doctors can't really > explain them. It is an interesting phenenomen - all the more interesting because it DON'T[1] happen here (Norway), even though there are a lot of Christian-s here. 'Being possessed' seems to be heavily culturally dependent. Eivind. [1] It is very, very, very rare. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 12:33:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07044 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:33:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06971; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199711122032.MAA06971@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:32:26 -0800 (PST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, jamie@itribe.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199711121811.TAA26526@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Nov 12, 97 07:11:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The universe is the way it is because we're here to see it; just > consider all universes as existing. The 'all combinations exists' > version is for me a rather small leap of faith after accepting that > something can be infinite (which is the really difficult hurdle :-) ah...the anthropic principle. martin gardner wrote elquently about the anthropic principle, in its varous statements. the Weak Anthropic Principle WAP the Strong Anthropic Principle SAP the P(dont remenber) Anthropic Principle PAP all of which are subject to the Completely Ridiculous Anthropic Principle CRAP. ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 13:14:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09498 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:14:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from radford.i-plus.net (NS.i-Plus.net [208.24.67.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09492 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:14:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rewt@i-Plus.net) Received: from b.nu (b.nu [208.24.67.50]) by radford.i-plus.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01725 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:12:24 -0500 (EST) From: "Troy Settle" To: Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan vote results: Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:50:14 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcefac$938dfa20$324318d0@b.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stuff the ballot box? hmm... why didn't I think of that? (gods.. i didn't even vote for my own slogan :( -- Troy Settle -- - -- - -- -- Got 'Net? -- Network Administrator | This Space | Explore the world with st@i-Plus.net | For Rent | iPlus Internet Services ICQ: 1625842 -- - -- - -- http://www.i-Plus.net From: spork >Man, I didn't even stuff the ballot box! > > >Charles Sprickman >spork@super-g.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 14:05:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14100 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:05:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from schenectady.netmonger.net (schenectady.netmonger.net [209.54.21.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14082 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:05:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from postmaster@schenectady.netmonger.net) Received: (from news@localhost) by schenectady.netmonger.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04942 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from GATEWAY by schenectady.netmonger.net with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 12 Nov 1997 21:51:42 GMT From: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Message-ID: <64d8de$488$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Organization: NetMonger Communications References: <19971112122617.23109@netmonger.net>, Subject: Re: Pentium bug (really) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article , Charles Mott wrote: >On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Christopher Masto wrote: >> The fact is that they have a workaround. The bug is bizzare, the >> workaround may be just as bizzare - perhaps the failure doesn't occur >> given certain register settings that don't affect anything else.. I >> don't know, and I'm not particularly interested in speculating on how >> it works. I would consider getting the patch and disassembling it, >> but at this time I'd rather not paint myself into a legal corner. > >I can see no reason that Intel would not want such information openly >available. On the other hand, if BSDI figured out a fix on their own, >they would have an economic incentive (perhaps) to keep it proprietary. I've been spending too much time in a pleasant business that involves telling the truth all the time and not pulling the wool over people's eyes. Someone pointed out that it's possible that the "workaround" could be easily worked around given a good look at it. That would seem to fit perfectly with Intel not wanting it to be disclosed. Naturally, the philosophy of "security through obscurity" is not something I subscribe to, and I don't know many clued-in folks who do, but in the crazy world Intel inhabits, it probably makes sense to them. Hopefully that's just paranoia and Intel is really going to disclose the workaround after they test it more thoroughly. I don't think the BSDI proprietary thing is all that likely, as they seem to be a reasonable company that wouldn't pull that kind of stunt. Didn't they donate some of their virtual x86 code recently? -- = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 15:38:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20687 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20663 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:38:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1019640; 12 Nov 97 23:34 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04128; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:46:11 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971112204610.10399@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:46:10 +0000 From: James Raynard To: Greg Hormann Cc: Faried Nawaz , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Crashing FreeBSD References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Greg Hormann on Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 07:16:41PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 11, 1997 at 07:16:41PM -0500, Greg Hormann wrote: > > > > Judicious use of kill -STOP will help here. > > > > killall(8) works better. But killboss(8) from ports/misc/asrpages is more amusing... -- In theory, theory is better than practice. In practice, it isn't. James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 18:15:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03473 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03468 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:15:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from giffuni.inteng.com ([168.176.3.32]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA24455; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:18:46 +0500 Message-ID: <346A60F5.47BDC3B9@asme.org> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:07:49 +0000 From: "Pedro Giffuni S." Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> <34690A37.236C9A1B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199711122019.VAA28109@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > I'm very uncertain what level you want 'explanations' on - if you > could clarify, I can try to pour from my never-ending amount of wisdom > ;-) (Meaning that I can possibly throw you a pointer). > Love is one typical example...Two men can behave exactly in a similar manner while dating a lady. Asume that socio-economical conditions are also similar. No scientific law will determine why this woman will select one man over the other (BTW, they almost never choose the fittest). In the subatomic world scientific laws will also become useless if you go behind certain size. In general the things you really want to know can not be modelled scientifically..either because there are way too many variables, or because it is really impossible. Also remember most of the scientific laws we use daily are FALSE. Newton was wrong, and a physicist friend of mine commented that Maxwell is wrong. Science always reduces to vulgar aproximations of reality (well not so vulgar). > [1] It is very, very, very rare. I agree, Demonic posession is very, very, rare but seeing it in a certain perspective it could be something very positive for an individual: It PROVES at a personal level the existance of God. It so evident that satan prefers other methods. Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 18:23:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03997 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gforce.bellsouth.net (host-32-96-78-38.msy.bellsouth.net [32.96.78.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03987 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:23:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from glenn@gforce.bellsouth.net) Received: from gforce.bellsouth.net (localhost.bellsouth.net [127.0.0.1]) by gforce.bellsouth.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01235; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:20:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from glenn@gforce.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199711130220.UAA01235@gforce.bellsouth.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 From: Glenn Johnson To: Bruce Albrecht cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:29:01 CST." <199711120429.WAA19960@zuhause.mn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:20:46 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry to restart this thread, but I was wondering if any of the WMs > other than olvwm support pushtack in the frame menu so that pop-up > windows stick around after one clicks on the "OK" (or whatever) button > that normally causes the window to go away. I'm not all that fond of > olvwm, but that's one thing I liked about it. > WindowMaker and CTWM allow pin down root menus, if that is what you are talking about. -- Glenn Johnson gljohns@bellsouth.net From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 12 20:34:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12452 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:34:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12442 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:34:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA03343; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:48:06 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:48:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711130448.VAA03343@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Charles Mott CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pentium bug (really) In-Reply-To: References: <19971112122617.23109@netmonger.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Mott writes: > I can see no reason that Intel would not want such information openly > available. On the other hand, if BSDI figured out a fix on their own, > they would have an economic incentive (perhaps) to keep it proprietary. Intel does want such information in the hands of everyone who can benefit from it; I was told so personally by an Intel vice president this afternoon. On the other hand, they want to ascertain the solution really solves the problem; half-baked answers probably won't help. Mind you, I am not a spokesman for Intel nor even an apologist for them. I did happen to have the ear of someone very high in the company for a minute and asked him about this problem. One part of the "attack" on the problem has been to alert the makers of virus scanning software to search for the instruction sequence that causes the crash. I found this a novel attack, and kicked myself for not thinking of it. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 13 19:34:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19909 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.san.rr.com (san.rr.com [204.210.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19876 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:33:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from studded@san.rr.com) Received: (from studded@localhost) by mail.san.rr.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08690; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:29:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711140329.TAA08690@mail.san.rr.com> From: "Studded" To: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , "David Greenman" , "Lee Crites (AEI)" Date: Thu, 13 Nov 97 19:29:37 -0800 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.95a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Walnut Creek Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Moved to chat] On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:16:14 -0600 (CST), Lee Crites (AEI) wrote: >Just out of idle curiosity, are there other "local changes" >besides the memory one? My understanding from what Dave has posted previously on the lists is that the changes relate to some custom software that he's running, not so much the OS. Although he did say "don't ask," so take that as a hint. :) >My main reason for asking is because I use www.cdrom.com as an >example of how kick-butt FreeBSD is. If that site is better >because of a bunch of "local changes," then I need another >example... Take a look at my .sig. :) We're running stock 2.2.5 (11/11 snap) and the only thing we've modified is the kernel config file. I can also tell you that every machine on our network that was running linux converted to FreeBSD as they saw our success grow. There were also several servers running bsdi that switched, much to the admins' consternation. In August '96 when I started working with DALnet, the network's high user count was 4,000 and some, and the average nightly utilization was 2,000. Now our high user count is 19,410, and our average night is an easy 18k. One of our server admins is a contributor to the kernel code on one of the linux projects, and he agrees that FreeBSD is a better choice for anything with a high network load. The conclusion we've come to is that if you want to have fun and learn something about unix, linux isn't a bad choice. But if you want to get serious work done, move up to FreeBSD. And yes, you can quote me. :) Doug *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 4,168 clients and still growing. :-) *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) *** Part of the DALnet IRC network *** From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 13 21:36:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27174 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27158 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:36:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA11206 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:36:51 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711140536.AAA11206@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: fonts.scale To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:36:51 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Due to popular requests, here is my fonts.scale. Guaranteed to be NOT bug free :-). 84 agw_____.pfb -adobe-itc avant garde gothic-book-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 agwo____.pfb -adobe-itc avant garde gothic-book-o-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 agd_____.pfb -adobe-itc avant garde gothic-demi-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 agdo____.pfb -adobe-itc avant garde gothic-demi-o-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 am______.pfb -adobe-americana-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 ameb____.pfb -adobe-americana-extrabold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 awrg____.pfb -adobe-acaslon-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 awi_____.pfb -adobe-acaslon-regular-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 awsb____.pfb -adobe-acaslon-semibold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 awsbi___.pfb -adobe-acaslon-semibold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bfrg____.pfb -adobe-barmeno-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bfb_____.pfb -adobe-barmeno-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bfeb____.pfb -adobe-barmeno-extrabold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bfrg____.pfb -adobe-barmeno-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bkd_____.pfb -adobe-itc bookman-demi-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bkdi____.pfb -adobe-itc bookman-demi-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bkl_____.pfb -adobe-itc bookman-light-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bkli____.pfb -adobe-itc bookman-light-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 bo______.pfb -adobe-blackoak-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 cy______.pfb -adobe-centry expanded-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 cyi_____.pfb -adobe-centry expanded-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 com_____.pfb -adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-m-0-iso8859-type1 cob_____.pfb -adobe-courier-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-m-0-iso8859-type1 cobo____.pfb -adobe-courier-bold-o-normal--0-0-0-0-m-0-iso8859-type1 coo_____.pfb -adobe-courier-medium-o-normal--0-0-0-0-m-0-iso8859-type1 fmrg____.pfb -adobe-formata-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 fmi_____.pfb -adobe-formata-regular-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 fmm_____.pfb -adobe-formata-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 fmmi____.pfb -adobe-formata-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 gdrg____.pfb -adobe-garamond-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 gdi_____.pfb -adobe-garamond-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 gdb_____.pfb -adobe-garamond-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 gdbi____.pfb -adobe-garamond-bold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hv______.pfb -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hvo_____.pfb -adobe-helvetica-medium-o-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hvb_____.pfb -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hvbo____.pfb _adobe-helvetica-bold-o-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hvn_____.pfb -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-narrow--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hvno____.pfb -adobe-helvetica-medium-o-narrow--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hvnb____.pfb -adobe-helvetica-bold-r-narrow--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 hvnbo___.pfb -adobe-helvetica-bold-o-narrow--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 lorg____.pfb -adobe-lothos-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 lobl____.pfb -adobe-lothos-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 kf______.pfb -adobe-kaufmann-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 ncb_____.pfb -adobe-new century schoolbook-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 ncbi____.pfb -adobe-new century schoolbook-bold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 nci_____.pfb -adobe-new century schoolbook-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 ncr_____.pfb -adobe-new century schoolbook-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 or______.pfb -adobe-orator-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-m-0-iso8859-type1 orsl____.pfb -adobe-orator-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-m-0-iso8859-type1 pa______.pfb -adobe-park avenue-regular-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 pob_____.pfb -adobe-palatino-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 pobi____.pfb -adobe-palatino-bold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 poi_____.pfb -adobe-palatino-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 por_____.pfb -adobe-palatino-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 tib_____.pfb -adobe-times-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 tibi____.pfb -adobe-times-bold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 tii_____.pfb -adobe-times-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 tir_____.pfb -adobe-times-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 tjb_____.pfb -adobe-trajan-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 tkrg____.pfb -adobe-tekton-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 tkb_____.pfb -adobe-tekton-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 zcmi____.pfb -adobe-itc zapf chancery-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 sy______.pfb -adobe-symbol-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p--adobe-fontspecific zd______.pfb -adobe-itc zapf dingbats-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p--adobe-fontspecific vabxe___.pfb -adobe-viva-bold-r-extraextended--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 varg____.pfb -adobe-viva-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 moc_____.pfb -adobe-minion-normal-r-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 moci____.pfb -adobe-minion-normal-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 mobc____.pfb -adobe-minion-bold-r-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 mobci___.pfb -adobe-minion-bold-i-condensed--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 moor____.pfb -adobe-minion ornaments-normal-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p--adobe-fontspecific utrg____.pfb -adobe-utopia-regular-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 uti_____.pfb -adobe-utopia-regular-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 utsb____.pfb -adobe-utopia-semibold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 utsbi___.pfb -adobe-utopia-semibold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 vxr_____.pfb -adobe-neuva-normal-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 vxbv____.pfb -adobe-neuva-bold-r-extended--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 vwrg____.pfb -adobe-caflisch script-regular-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 vwb_____.pfb -adobe-caflisch script-bold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 c0648bt_.pfb -bitstream-charter-medium-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 c0649bt_.pfb -bitstream-charter-medium-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 c0632bt_.pfb -bitstream-charter-bold-r-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 c0633bt_.pfb -bitstream-charter-bold-i-normal--0-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-type1 -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 00:20:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA10692 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10685 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 00:20:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA02225 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:20:37 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA08541; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:16:12 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971114091612.BW29993@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:16:12 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Possible Kernel Bug? References: <3467FA72.2536360D@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <3467FA72.2536360D@ix.netcom.com>; from Jerry Hicks on Nov 11, 1997 01:25:54 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jerry Hicks wrote: > (I just checked my inbox and saw Chuck's reply. Gotta dig out the > reference but I do believe that comparisons of void pointers are legal. Only equality operations (== or !=) to other pointers, or to the integral constant 0, are covered by the standard. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 05:39:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28693 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:39:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from adam.adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28376 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 05:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leec@adam.adonai.net) Received: from localhost (leec@localhost) by adam.adonai.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA16884; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:25:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:25:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Lee Crites (AEI)" To: Studded cc: "freebsd-chat@freebsd.org" , David Greenman Subject: Re: Walnut Creek In-Reply-To: <199711140329.TAA08690@mail.san.rr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Studded wrote: => My understanding from what Dave has posted previously on the lists =>is that the changes relate to some custom software that he's running, not =>so much the OS. Although he did say "don't ask," so take that as a hint. =>:) I took his "don't ask" as don't ask for *the changed code*. => Take a look at my .sig. :) We're running stock 2.2.5 (11/11 snap) Site noted. Thanks. Lee From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 07:44:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07563 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:44:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.5.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07538 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:44:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bkogawa@primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA02071; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:44:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from mailhost01.primenet.com(206.165.5.52), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd002021; Fri Nov 14 08:44:14 1997 Received: from foo.primenet.com (ip213.sjc.primenet.com [206.165.96.213]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02287; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:43:58 -0700 (MST) Received: (from bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA29091; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:52:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:52:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711141552.HAA29091@foo.primenet.com> To: owensc@enc.edu Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? References: From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected to -chat] In localhost.freebsd.questions you write: >Anyone know the answer? >At the bottom of the URL: > http://www.nc.com/techpubs/ncss200.html >... I was very surprised to find this: >// begin snippet (note item 4) >How to make an update floppy disk [...] > 4.Format a floppy disk for FreeBSD. [...] >FYI, NCI is the Oracle spinoff that develops an NC (network computer) and >related support products. Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. Running file on the executable they want you to update reveals: {foo} ~/nc 7:42 ttyp7 > file dhcpd dhcpd: BSD/i386 compact demand paged dynamically linked executable not stripped Not surprising, I guess, but no one has mentioned it before. -- bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 08:34:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11204 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11190 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@PartsNow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id BAA20621; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:31:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from nouvelle(192.168.100.9) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma020614; Fri, 14 Nov 97 01:31:00 -0800 Message-ID: <346C7CAE.E89@PartsNow.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:30:38 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@PartsNow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-E-KIT (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro Giffuni S." CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Newest Pentium bug (fatal) References: <199711110620.XAA15169@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711110645.XAA02334@usr03.primenet.com> <199711111652.JAA16566@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199711111836.TAA22576@bitbox.follo.net> <3468B7E9.5FB8A39D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199711120002.BAA23398@bitbox.follo.net> <34690A37.236C9A1B@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <3469DC37.5781@PartsNow.com> <346A5A8A.451211D9@asme.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Pedro Giffuni S. wrote: > > Don Wilde wrote: > > > > Jeez, did HE start this??? :) > Yup...he sustained Terry speaks with God...and see what happened :-) > > Pedro. I always knew that little red Daemon was going to pitchfork me... -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 09:42:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17175 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:42:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17168 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA11015; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:42:08 -0800 (PST) To: "Bryan K. Ogawa" cc: owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:52:36 PST." <199711141552.HAA29091@foo.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:42:08 -0800 Message-ID: <11012.879529328@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [...] > > 4.Format a floppy disk for FreeBSD. > [...] > > >FYI, NCI is the Oracle spinoff that develops an NC (network computer) and > >related support products. > > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. The network computer server runs FreeBSD, yes. Our very own John Dyson is, in fact, in the employ of Oracle/NC. And that, I believe, answers that question. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 09:57:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18289 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18279 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:57:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA00434; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:56:56 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711141756.MAA00434@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: <199711141552.HAA29091@foo.primenet.com> from "Bryan K. Ogawa" at "Nov 14, 97 07:52:36 am" To: bkogawa@primenet.com (Bryan K. Ogawa) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:56:56 -0500 (EST) Cc: owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Bryan K. Ogawa said: > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. > It IS NetBSD and FreeBSD based. The choice was due to various peoples experience (Yahoo, et.al.), licensing (non-GPL for runtime), and portability (for ARM -- NetBSD being very portable.) I was pleasantly overwhelmed to see the reputation that *BSD has in the NCI/Oracle community. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 10:56:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22788 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:56:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from itsdsv1.enc.edu (fw1.enc.edu [207.95.42.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22781; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:56:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owensc@enc.edu) Received: from itsdsv2.enc.edu (itsdsv2.enc.edu [10.1.1.9]) by itsdsv1.enc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA17348; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:56:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:56:13 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Owens Reply-To: Charles Owens To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: <199711141756.MAA00434@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > Bryan K. Ogawa said: > > > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. > > > It IS NetBSD and FreeBSD based. The choice was due to various peoples > experience (Yahoo, et.al.), licensing (non-GPL for runtime), and portability > (for ARM -- NetBSD being very portable.) > > I was pleasantly overwhelmed to see the reputation that *BSD has in the > NCI/Oracle community. Since you're obviously someone in touch with many-things-Oracle, please allow me to ask one other question (maybe "family of questions" would be more accurate): In my quick perusal of the "Server Suite" product literature, I see mentioned that Oracle7 Server is part of the deal (or at least an option). Does this mean that Oracle has a *BSD port of Oracle7? Or, do they use an SCO version running with ibcs2 emulation? (Or, maybe they mean for you to do database stuff with a separate box... say, a Sun ?) ---> The _real_ question that I'm looking for an answer to is, if I wanted to run an Oracle database on FreeBSD, what is the optimum approach? I'm sure this is a FAQ, but when I've dug around the list archives in the past I've not gotten far. Thanks, --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu http://www.enc.edu/~owensc Network & Systems Administrator Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 11:06:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23615 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:06:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23579; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:06:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA00694; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:06:13 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711141906.OAA00694@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: from Charles Owens at "Nov 14, 97 01:56:13 pm" To: owensc@enc.edu Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:06:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Owens said: > > Since you're obviously someone in touch with many-things-Oracle, please > allow me to ask one other question (maybe "family of questions" would be > more accurate): > > In my quick perusal of the "Server Suite" product literature, I see > mentioned that Oracle7 Server is part of the deal (or at least an option). > Does this mean that Oracle has a *BSD port of Oracle7? Or, do they use an > SCO version running with ibcs2 emulation? > They use an internal port of Oracle7. > > ---> The _real_ question that I'm looking for an answer to is, if I wanted > to run an Oracle database on FreeBSD, what is the optimum > approach? I'm sure this is a FAQ, but when I've dug around > the list archives in the past I've not gotten far. > That is a hot-potato that I cannot (and am not competent to) answer. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 11:19:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24656 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from itsdsv1.enc.edu (fw1.enc.edu [207.95.42.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24636; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:19:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owensc@enc.edu) Received: from itsdsv2.enc.edu (itsdsv2.enc.edu [10.1.1.9]) by itsdsv1.enc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18120; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:18:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:18:15 -0500 (EST) From: Charles Owens To: "John S. Dyson" cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: <199711141906.OAA00694@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > Charles Owens said: > > > > Since you're obviously someone in touch with many-things-Oracle, please > > allow me to ask one other question (maybe "family of questions" would be > > more accurate): > > > > In my quick perusal of the "Server Suite" product literature, I see > > mentioned that Oracle7 Server is part of the deal (or at least an option). > > Does this mean that Oracle has a *BSD port of Oracle7? Or, do they use an > > SCO version running with ibcs2 emulation? > > > They use an internal port of Oracle7. > > > > ---> The _real_ question that I'm looking for an answer to is, if I wanted > > to run an Oracle database on FreeBSD, what is the optimum > > approach? I'm sure this is a FAQ, but when I've dug around > > the list archives in the past I've not gotten far. > > > That is a hot-potato that I cannot (and am not competent to) answer. Obvious (and final) followup: Can you point me at a FreeBSD-guru-type who _can_ (and won't mind) answer(ing) this question? >From your tone above I have this sneaking suspicion that your answer to this questio willn be an equally terse "no." If so, I understand (I think). :-) Thanks, --- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu http://www.enc.edu/~owensc Network & Systems Administrator Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 11:50:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27086 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27059; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA00782; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:50:02 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711141950.OAA00782@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: from Charles Owens at "Nov 14, 97 02:18:15 pm" To: owensc@enc.edu (Charles Owens) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:50:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Owens said: > > Can you point me at a FreeBSD-guru-type who _can_ (and won't mind) > answer(ing) this question? > Simply put, it is in the hands of marketing at Oracle. The more people who strongly demand a port to FreeBSD, the bigger the chances are. The way to get Oracle for FreeBSD is to get it though marketing/sales channels. It is not in the hands of the technical (guru) types. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 12:27:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01025 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua ([195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01014 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:27:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA12151; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:22:25 GMT Message-ID: <346CDD2E.34FDC2BC@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:22:24 +0000 From: Ruslan Shevchenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Owens CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Charles Owens wrote: > On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > ? Charles Owens said: > ? ? > ? ? Since you're obviously someone in touch with many-things-Oracle, please > ? ? allow me to ask one other question (maybe "family of questions" would be > ? ? more accurate): > ? ? > ? ? In my quick perusal of the "Server Suite" product literature, I see > ? ? mentioned that Oracle7 Server is part of the deal (or at least an option). > ? ? Does this mean that Oracle has a *BSD port of Oracle7? Or, do they use an > ? ? SCO version running with ibcs2 emulation? > ? ? > ? They use an internal port of Oracle7. > ? ? > ? ? ---? The _real_ question that I'm looking for an answer to is, if I wanted > ? ? to run an Oracle database on FreeBSD, what is the optimum > ? ? approach? I'm sure this is a FAQ, but when I've dug around > ? ? the list archives in the past I've not gotten far. > ? ? > ? That is a hot-potato that I cannot (and am not competent to) answer. > > Obvious (and final) followup: > > Can you point me at a FreeBSD-guru-type who _can_ (and won't mind) > answer(ing) this question? > > ?From your tone above I have this sneaking suspicion that your answer > to this questio willn be an equally terse "no." If so, I understand (I > think). :-) > > Thanks, > In principle, i hear, that exists peoples, that run Oracle under SCO emulator. 1. turn on ibcs2 2. get SCO libs. (Linux guys have sco_libs on their ftp servers, I forgott where, may be on Oracle site in Australia) 3. copy entire directory structure (/usr/oracle7) with all permissions to FreeBSD. (create appropriative users) 4. Copy startup scripts and /etc/oratab (be carefull with permissions) 5. Try to run. > Few days ago, somebody (may be Jordan ?) say, that he know peoples, which do this. If you will try, please, tell me about results. > On Oracle ftp site in Australia (where live unofficial Oracle FAQ) you can find detailed instructions about setting Oracle on Linux. I think, that it will be the same for FreeBSD. > --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Charles N. Owens Email: owensc@enc.edu > http://www.enc.edu/~owensc > Network ? Systems Administrator > Information Technology Services "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's > Eastern Nazarene College best friend. Inside of a dog it's > too dark to read." - Groucho Marx > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 14:25:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08904 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08898 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:25:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id RAA11515 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:24:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:24:03 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ftp.apple.com running BSD 4.4 ?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This was grapped from the www.macosrumors.com site ------ As confirmed by several others, this reader happened upon evidence that Apple's FTP servers are running BSD 4.4: the same UNIX version that operates as the core of OpenStep 4.x and Rhapsody: I decided to make an FTP connection to ftp.apple.com to see what the remote system type was. I expected Unix, probably Sun Solaris or SPARC, from recent discussion. but found the following: Connecting to ftp.apple.com port 21 (11/12/97 8:13:51 PM) 220 ftp10.apple.com FTP server (Version 4.1 Tue Sep 10 08:49:22 CDT 1996) ready. USER anonymous 331 Guest login ok, send ident as password. PASS 230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply. SYST 215 UNIX Type: L8 Version: BSD-44 BSD-44? Sounds like someone is prepping for Rhapsody in a big way. I wonder what they're running. NeXTStep was based on 4.3BSD, all versions. Those big servers Apple used to sell ran AIX. FreeBSD on a PPC? Somehow I think that would be a different type. Rhapsody can't be ready for this; did NeXT Software come up with a version of NeXTStep based on Mach 3.0 (which does run 4.4BSD)? ------------- Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 15:27:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12148 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12142 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:27:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA23824 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:27:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga12-17.ix.netcom.com(199.183.210.209) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023788; Fri Nov 14 17:26:58 1997 Message-ID: <346CDE3A.929533F6@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:26:50 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? References: <199711141950.OAA00782@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John S. Dyson wrote: > > Charles Owens said: > > > > Can you point me at a FreeBSD-guru-type who _can_ (and won't mind) > > answer(ing) this question? > > > Simply put, it is in the hands of marketing at Oracle. The more people who strongly > demand a port to FreeBSD, the bigger the chances are. The way to get Oracle > for FreeBSD is to get it though marketing/sales channels. It is not in the hands > of the technical (guru) types. > > -- > John > dyson@freebsd.org > jdyson@nc.com WRT Oracle for FreeBSD, we *do* seem to be much closer than ever before. Marketing types still respond to public interest (most of the time). Undoubtedly, BSD Unix derivatives will be getting some widespread public exposure as a by-product of the Oracle developments. The interest generated could be what ultimately convinces Oracle to publish a FreeBSD implementation of their database. IMO, Oracle's activities are good for FreeBSD, whether that ever happens or not. Keep up the good work John. Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 17:16:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18682 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:16:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18674 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:16:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id TAA25274; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:13:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:13:25 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Bryan K. Ogawa" cc: owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: <199711141552.HAA29091@foo.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bryan K. Ogawa wrote: > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. It is actually FreeBSD. All you have to do is call their supplier DLT and ask them if it's FreeBSD and they usually say "I'm not sure but I know it is BSD based hold on let me check... " And they come back and "Yes it is in fact FreeBSD" Just ask em there more than happy to tell you :) FreeBSD is running on quite a few commercial net related hardware appliances from what i hear. Chris -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 19:08:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25178 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:08:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25133; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:07:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA01607; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:07:53 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711150307.WAA01607@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Bad Winds of Winter - Please Read! In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Nov 14, 97 09:00:09 pm" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:07:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, Shimon@i-connect.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek said: > [hint: further replies-to -chat] > > On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Simon, it's already over. You're late! :) > > No, we had a fairly reasonable storm today (although only a > meager ~10cm accumulation), and I can definitely still see a few > flakes coming down. > I just landed in Indianapolis last night (from the Bay area), in a twin engine plane, with approx 5cm of slush. We had approx 10-12cm of snow approx 1 month early, and a VERY VERY unpleasant surprise, after being at work (NCI) this week. If Indy wasn't home and very strong emotional ties, I would move to the Bay area in a second!!! At least there isn't snow out where I work, until you get up to at least 1K meters or so. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 19:19:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25624 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:19:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25614 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:19:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA03443; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:18:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711150318.TAA03443@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Bryan K. Ogawa" , owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:42:08 PST." <11012.879529328@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:18:32 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [...] > > > 4.Format a floppy disk for FreeBSD. > > [...] > > > > >FYI, NCI is the Oracle spinoff that develops an NC (network computer) and > > >related support products. > > > > > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. > > The network computer server runs FreeBSD, yes. Our very own John > Dyson is, in fact, in the employ of Oracle/NC. And that, I believe, > answers that question. :) > Perhaps you can add a small section to our web page with some marketing twist to the fact that NC servers also run on FreeBSD. If they have any cools apps I would love to have a small license 8) So is there a cool http pointer where I can go and get detail information about NC servers/clients ? Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 14 20:07:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27708 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27703 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:07:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA05749; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:07:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:07:32 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Bryan K. Ogawa" , owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: <199711150318.TAA03443@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Perhaps you can add a small section to our web page with some marketing > twist to the fact that NC servers also run on FreeBSD. > > If they have any cools apps I would love to have a small license 8) www.nc.com And actually there porting staroffice to them now. The next few months should see a NC server with the staroffice suit. I just wish they would port star office to FreeBSD. Chris -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 06:32:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06063 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:32:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA05985 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:31:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00446; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:31:16 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA00591; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:31:14 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:31:14 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711151431.PAA00591@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Open Systems Networking CC: bkogawa@primenet.com, owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Open Systems Networking's message of Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:13:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? References: <199711141552.HAA29091@foo.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bryan K. Ogawa wrote: > > > > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. > > It is actually FreeBSD. All you have to do is call their supplier DLT and > ask them if it's FreeBSD and they usually say "I'm not sure but I know it > is BSD based hold on let me check... " And they come back and "Yes it is > in fact FreeBSD" > > Just ask em there more than happy to tell you :) They should actually tell up front, according to the BSD license... > FreeBSD is running on quite a few commercial net related hardware > appliances from what i hear. Including ours :-) We've told everybody we've been talking to that it runs on FreeBSD, but it hasn't made it into the ad-materials on the net as far as I can see (I just wanted to verify that it was there, and to my horror it wasn't. I'm going to rectify that come Monday). It is in the docs, at least. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 06:33:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06245 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:33:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA06237; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 06:33:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14666; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19383; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:34:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:34:58 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: "John S. Dyson" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, Shimon@i-connect.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad Winds of Winter - Please Read! In-Reply-To: <199711150307.WAA01607@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > I just landed in Indianapolis last night (from the Bay area), in a twin > engine plane, with approx 5cm of slush. We had approx 10-12cm of snow Well, if it makes you feel any better, the official count now puts us at 17cm of snow. :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 07:41:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13885 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:41:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dumbwinter.logic.it (m15.logic.it [195.120.151.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13880 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: (qmail 2721 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Nov 1997 15:40:25 -0000 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:40:25 +0100 (MET) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Quote of the day (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Marco Molteni Computer Science student at the Universita' degli studi di Milano, Italy. "Whuffo you jump out of them airplanes?" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:50:02 -0700 From: Quote of the day To: Quote of the day mailing list Subject: Quote of the day Writer Arthur C. Clarke was participating in a panel discussion via the Internet as a part of Cyberfest '97. This was held at the University of Illinois at Urbana, the "birthplace" of HAL 9000, the intelligent, self-aware computer in his novel 2001:A Space Odyssey. At the conference, which included a competition to write HAL's first words, Clarke offered his preference for HAL's first spoken sentence. "Good morning doctors. I have taken the liberty of removing Windows 95 from my hard drive." Submitted by: Terry Labach Oct. 17, 1997 -------------------------------------------------------------- Send quotation submissions to qotd@ensu.ucalgary.ca Send list changes or requests to qotd-request@ensu.ucalgary.ca From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 10:37:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23421 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:37:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23416 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA04304; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:37:28 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711151837.NAA04304@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: <199711151431.PAA00591@bitbox.follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Nov 15, 97 03:31:14 pm" To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:37:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, bkogawa@primenet.com, owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund said: > > > > On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bryan K. Ogawa wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > > > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. > > > > It is actually FreeBSD. All you have to do is call their supplier DLT and > > ask them if it's FreeBSD and they usually say "I'm not sure but I know it > > is BSD based hold on let me check... " And they come back and "Yes it is > > in fact FreeBSD" > > > > Just ask em there more than happy to tell you :) > > They should actually tell up front, according to the BSD license... > It doesn't really say that. It isn't even advertised by NCI, that it is any kind of U**X clone (that I know of.) Additionally, all of the copyright notices and necessary source code is reproduced on the distributions (per GPL as needed), and necessary copyright notices are reproduced on the docs. I helped review the license terms to make sure of compliance (I happen to be very picky about compliance with license terms), but did not have a project responsibilty. What ended up on the distribution MIGHT HAVE differed from my wishes, but I don't think that is so. BTW, major components of NC/OS are derived from FreeBSD-2.2.2 with updates and patches and/or older versions of NetBSD, but there is alot more stuff on the distribution than just an OS. I personally created the .tar.gz of the GPLed source code distribution, and it is unmodified from the GPLed portions of the FreeBSD sources. If there are specific violations of the license terms on the distributions, I would appreciate feedback, so that I can make sure that appropriate parties will be notified, and the error will be corrected, ASAP. I personally don't like to see violations of license terms!!! It is best to fix problems, before they get out-of-hand. It is likely that most distributions that people have seen outside of NCI are beta or pre-production copies, anyway. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 11:52:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04060 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04019 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:52:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04491; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:52:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711151952.LAA04491@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "John S. Dyson" cc: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund), opsys@mail.webspan.net, bkogawa@primenet.com, owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:37:28 EST." <199711151837.NAA04304@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:52:19 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmm... I think what we would like to see clearly is that FreeBSD is being used on the NCs. Also a nice http pointer from www.freebsd.org pointing out a wonderful use of FreeBSD is for NCs. Amancio > Eivind Eklund said: > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Bryan K. Ogawa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Well, one of Free/Net/OpenBSD, at least, and not BSDi, and with the > > > > reference to FreeBSD, it'd have to be the leading candidate. > > > > > > It is actually FreeBSD. All you have to do is call their supplier DLT and > > > ask them if it's FreeBSD and they usually say "I'm not sure but I know it > > > is BSD based hold on let me check... " And they come back and "Yes it is > > > in fact FreeBSD" > > > > > > Just ask em there more than happy to tell you :) > > > > They should actually tell up front, according to the BSD license... > > > It doesn't really say that. It isn't even advertised by NCI, that it is any kind > of U**X clone (that I know of.) Additionally, all of the copyright notices and > necessary source code is reproduced on the distributions (per GPL as needed), and > necessary copyright notices are reproduced on the docs. I helped review the license > terms to make sure of compliance (I happen to be very picky about compliance > with license terms), but did not have a project responsibilty. What ended up > on the distribution MIGHT HAVE differed from my wishes, but I don't think that > is so. BTW, major components of NC/OS are derived from FreeBSD-2.2.2 with > updates and patches and/or older versions of NetBSD, but there is alot more stuff > on the distribution than just an OS. I personally created the .tar.gz of the > GPLed source code distribution, and it is unmodified from the GPLed portions > of the FreeBSD sources. > > If there are specific violations of the license terms on the distributions, I > would appreciate feedback, so that I can make sure that appropriate parties > will be notified, and the error will be corrected, ASAP. I personally don't > like to see violations of license terms!!! It is best to fix problems, before > they get out-of-hand. > > It is likely that most distributions that people have seen outside of NCI are > beta or pre-production copies, anyway. > > -- > John > dyson@freebsd.org > jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 12:21:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15592 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:21:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15581 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:20:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA04611; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:19:02 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711152019.PAA04611@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-Reply-To: <199711151952.LAA04491@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Nov 15, 97 11:52:19 am" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:19:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, perhaps@yes.no, opsys@mail.webspan.net, bkogawa@primenet.com, owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Amancio Hasty said: > > Hmm... > > I think what we would like to see clearly is that FreeBSD is being used on > the NCs. > I agree, but I have NO influence in that area. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 16:03:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05647 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05635 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:03:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.v-site.net [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00425; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:02:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711160002.QAA00425@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: "John S. Dyson" cc: perhaps@yes.no, opsys@mail.webspan.net, bkogawa@primenet.com, owensc@enc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: is NCI's "NC Server Suite" FreeBSD-based? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:19:02 EST." <199711152019.PAA04611@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:02:04 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Amancio Hasty said: > > > > Hmm... > > > > I think what we would like to see clearly is that FreeBSD is being used on > > the NCs. > > > I agree, but I have NO influence in that area. Then at least past it on to marketing or let me have the e-mail of the marketing contact. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 15 21:54:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20953 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from abby.skypoint.net (abby.skypoint.net [199.86.32.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20945 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:54:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bruce@zuhause.mn.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by abby.skypoint.net (8.8.7/jl 1.3) with UUCP id XAA16847; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:54:36 -0600 (CST) Received: (from bruce@localhost) by zuhause.mn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12979; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:47:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:47:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711160547.XAA12979@zuhause.mn.org> From: Bruce Albrecht To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fonts.scale In-Reply-To: <199711140536.AAA11206@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199711140536.AAA11206@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "New York" XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Sat_Nov_15_23:47:38_1997-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --Multipart_Sat_Nov_15_23:47:38_1997-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I have a bunch of Adobe and Bitstream fonts, and I figured it was too tedious to generate a fonts.scale for approximately 1000 fonts by hand, so I wrote the following perl5 script to do it for me. My script assumes that all the files in a directory are from the same foundry because I group them by foundry, so if you lump all your favorite type 1 fonts together regardless of where it came from, too bad. The Corel Mega Gallery is good source of Type 1 fonts, with ~850 fonts from Bitstream, many licensed from ITC, etc., for around $65. --Multipart_Sat_Nov_15_23:47:38_1997-1 Content-Type: application/octet-stream Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="make_fonts.scale" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Bruce Albrecht # bruce@zuhause.mn.org # Scan a directory for Type1 fonts and generate a font.scale file # suitable for X11. # Specify the foundry (e.g., adobe, bitstream, etc). # Specify "raw" if "normal" and "regular" weights are not translated # to "medium". die "Usage: $0 Foundry [raw]\n" unless @ARGV == 1 || @ARGV == 2; opendir(DIR, "."); for $file (readdir(DIR)) { open(FILE, $file); $family = $fullname = $weight = $slant = $sWdth = $adstyl = $spacing = $encoding = ""; read(FILE, $_, -s $file); next unless /%!PS-AdobeFont/; tr/[A-Z]/[a-z]/; $family = $1 if m-/familyname\s+\(([^)]+)-; $weight = $1 if m-/weight\s+\(([^)]+)-; $slant = $1 if m-/italicangle\s+(\S+)\s+def-; $spacing = ($1 =~ /true/i ? "m" : "p") if m-/isfixedpitch\s+(\S+)\s+def-; $fullname = $1 if m-/fullname\s+\(([^)]+)-; $encoding = $1 if m-/encoding\s+(\S+)\s+def-; $weight =~ s/extra /extra/; $slant = ($slant ? ($fullname =~ /obli/i ? "o" : "i") : "r"); $encoding = ($encoding =~ /standardencoding/ ? "iso8859-1" : "adobe-fontspecific"); $family =~ s/-/ /g; $sWdth = "normal"; $sWdth = $1 if $fullname =~ /\b(condensed|extended|compact|compressed|narrow)\b/; # Fix condensed weight if ( $weight eq "condensed" ) { $weight="regular"; $Swdth="condensed"; } # Ignore expert or oldstyle fonts next if $fullname =~ /\b(expert|oldstyle)\b/; $characteristics=join("-", $family, $weight, $slant, $sWdth,$adstyl, 0,0,0,0,$spacing,0,$encoding); # Ignore font whose characteristics appear to be the same as another. # The font is not the same, but this simple scan can't tell the difference. if ( $font{$characteristics} ) { print STDERR "$file ($fullname) appears to duplicate $font{$characteristics}, ignored.\n"; next; } $font{$characteristics}=$file; push(@list, join("-", "$file ", $ARGV[0], $characteristics)); } # A lot of Type 1 fonts have "normal" or "regular" weight specified by # the foundry, but most X fonts use "medium" for the weight. Also, # the Type 1 fonts that come with X11R6 have a fonts.scale with medium # weight, even though the font itself specifies normal or regular. # Translate normal or regular weights to medium unless directed not # to. if ( $ARGV[1] ne "raw" ) { for ( @list ) { @xchar=split(/-/); next if $xchar[3] ne "normal" && $xchar[3] ne "regular"; $_=join("-", @xchar[0..2], "medium", @xchar[4..14]) unless $font{join("-", @xchar[1..14])}; } } # here's the list: print join("\n", scalar(@list), @list, ""); __END__ # perldoc should go here. --Multipart_Sat_Nov_15_23:47:38_1997-1--