From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:13:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA10021 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10016 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA21570; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:12:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from scz-ca17-04.ix.netcom.com(205.184.191.132) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma021566; Sun Aug 3 02:12:35 1997 Message-ID: <33E42F5E.41C67EA6@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 00:12:30 -0700 From: Sherwin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barry Masterson CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am having a similar problem. See Problem Report bin/4189. It appears to be related to my use of ppp on a modem on cuaa3. I am running 2.2.2 off the CDROM, with the XFree86-3.3 and the SVGA server, with a Matrox Millenium. If user ppp is not running, I can restart X as many times as I like. With user ppp running, I get the freeze immediately after the carriage-return is echoed. I have yet to figure out why or how to fix it. Anyone have an idea? Barry Masterson wrote: > > I seem to remember reading on the -questions mailing list that > XFree86-3.3 was not fully supported on the FreeBSD 2.2.2-R > system. > > I'm running FreeBSD 2.2.2-R on a ASUS P55T2P4, with a Adaptec > 2940AU. THe graphics card is a #9 9FX Reality 772 (ViRGE/VX). > > I built XFree86-3.3 (from the source code) because it offers > better support for the ViRGE/VX chipset. > > My question is, Is there anything specific to FreeBSD 2.2.2-R > that needs to be changed to best run XFree86-3.3; such as > something from the FreeBSD-current source? Or, I should ask, > is there something about 2.2.2-R that might cause the situation > described below. > > The reason I'm asking, is that while 3.3 runs fine on this system, > the XF86_SVGA server fails to restart after the first 'startx' > session is closed on a freshly booted system. (running startx > a second time results on a frozen keyboard and a blank screen). > > The author of XF86_S3V & XF86_SVGA is aware of this problem. They > supplied me with the patches to fix it, but after applying them, > and rebuilding, the 'no second restart' problem is still present. > (The XF86_SVGA author can't reproduce the lockup on the patched > 3.3.1 server) > > Luckily, the XF86_S3V server is ok. However, I've been told > that the SVGA server is better, and that S3V will at some point > be phased out. > > In an attempt to cover the bases, I thought I should ask this list > if FreeBSD 2.2.2-R needs anything from the -current source tree to > make the 3.3 or the 3.3.1 patched XF86_SVGA server happy. > > Please cc, not currently on -current. > > Thank you for listening. > > Barry Masterson > jbarrm@panix.com > > >--->--->--->--->---> > FreeBSD 2.2.2-R > <---<---<---<---<---< From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:17:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA10169 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10137 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02827 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:16:38 +0200 (CEST) To: current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 14:51:02 +0800." <199708030651.OAA15779@spinner.dialix.com.au> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:16:37 +0200 Message-ID: <2825.870592597@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wonder how many of you whould have written similar to argue against the inclusion of awk, sed, yacc, lex & csh, using the very same arguments, in earlier days of unix ? Tcl and perl represent a significant development in programming, and you guys argue that they should not be in our favourite state-of-the-art UNIX ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:21:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA10363 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10355 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jbarrm@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id DAA05021; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:18:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Barry Masterson To: David Dawes cc: FreeBSD-current Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX In-Reply-To: <19970803162630.61774@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, David Dawes wrote: > On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 01:50:41AM -0400, Barry Masterson wrote: > > > >My question is, Is there anything specific to FreeBSD 2.2.2-R > >that needs to be changed to best run XFree86-3.3; such as > >something from the FreeBSD-current source? Or, I should ask, > >is there something about 2.2.2-R that might cause the situation > >described below. > > No. The situation you are describing almost certainly has nothing to > do with the OS. Thank you. I had to ask. The XF86_SVGA authors have taken the time to write back. I know they're busy, and I appreciate the time they take to answer my questions. At the same time, I wanted to get an either yes/no/maybe answer from the -current people on the OS side. > > > >The author of XF86_S3V & XF86_SVGA is aware of this problem. They > >supplied me with the patches to fix it, but after applying them, > >and rebuilding, the 'no second restart' problem is still present. > >(The XF86_SVGA author can't reproduce the lockup on the patched > >3.3.1 server) > > > Are you absolutely certain that you've been testing the patched version? > I hate to ask that, but it wouldn't be the first time someone has reported > a fix not working because they were still running the older version > without realising it. I keep log files on all the make's I do. I looked over the logs. As far as I can tell, the seven patched files were remade. Although, I won't rule out that I may have missed something. Thanks for responding, Barry Masterson jbarrm@panix.com >--->--->--->--->---> FreeBSD 2.2.2-R <---<---<---<---<---< From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:25:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA10574 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10569 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA13169; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:54:47 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708030724.QAA13169@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: DMI anyone ? In-Reply-To: <1519.870530784@critter.dk.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Aug 2, 97 04:06:24 pm" To: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:54:47 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying: > > Does anybody have in insight or interest in the DMI stuff ? > > (http://www.dmtf.org) See the earlier thread on SMBIOS/DMI, and Phoenix's tech stuff page for the SMBIOS spec. Bottom line : we need a means for making 16-bit BIOS calls (16-bit protected mode interface is part of the spec)... -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:30:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA10922 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10908 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08049; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:29:39 +0200 (CEST) To: Michael Smith cc: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp), current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: DMI anyone ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 16:54:47 +0930." <199708030724.QAA13169@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:29:38 +0200 Message-ID: <8047.870593378@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708030724.QAA13169@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, Michael Smith writes: >Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying: >> >> Does anybody have in insight or interest in the DMI stuff ? >> >> (http://www.dmtf.org) > >See the earlier thread on SMBIOS/DMI, and Phoenix's tech stuff page >for the SMBIOS spec. > >Bottom line : we need a means for making 16-bit BIOS calls (16-bit >protected mode interface is part of the spec)... I was in that thread. This was more a question along the line of "would DMI/SMBIOS support (whatever it means) buy us anything ?" -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:30:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA10966 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@tibet-28.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.156]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10955 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01728 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:30:45 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:30:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As I was installing FreeBSD 3.0-SNAP970618, I noticed a few things that should probably be corrected, and a few things I'd like to offer my opinion on ;). 1.) The boot.help file on the boot.flp image incorrectly states when describing the -cv option that c displays verbose messages and that -v enteres a kernel configurator. 2.) The default motd says that the FAQ and Handbook are in the info distribution (they're in the doc distrib, I think. Still can't find em). 3.) I noticed that the bundled sendmail is 8.8.5, 8.8.6 is the latest. Same with tcl 7.5 (vs 7.6p2) and perl 4?!?! (5.003 or so), and pppd is now at 2.3.1 (or so). Perhaps these should be upgraded since all the latest versions are stable. I also noticed that there are still packages that depend on tk 4.1, and some on 4.2, meaning i have two copies of tk installed. 4.) This has probably been debated endlessly, however I'd like to offer my two cents. I honestly think that rpm style packages (meaning no more split up tarballs, and no huge 70mb bin distrib) are way more convenient and easier to manage. This would let me download a minimum of things, and still get a working system, instead of gcc, and the works, and be a lot more descriptive. On the other hand, I noticed that the x packages installed quicker (they're in .tgz format not split up tarballs) off my fat partition than did the huge tarballs 100+k/s faster on average. 5.) On the whole bsd vs sysv init scheme. Since I'm sure that there is no chance of FreeBSD inherriting a sysv style init, I was wonderin if maybe a comprimise would be in order? Perhaps having the bsd scripts, turn into sysv style directories so rc.i386 is a directory and contains things like say S52linuxemu, etc, etc. Comments? 6.) Also, while tinkering with Debian, I really liked the menu config for the kernel vs the text file that *bsd* uses. IMO this would be great to integrate into FreeBSD. Also due to the nature of Linux, I really did like the ability to easily keep multiple kernel source configurations, along with multiple kernel sources. Perhaps something with libdialog could be worked out. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:33:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11101 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA11093 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jbarrm@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id DAA06896; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Barry Masterson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FreeBSD-current Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX In-Reply-To: <688.870590262@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I seem to remember reading on the -questions mailing list that > > XFree86-3.3 was not fully supported on the FreeBSD 2.2.2-R > > system. > > It's not the default XFree86 for it, but it's more than usable with > 2.2.2. I don't know who told you it wasn't supported. One or two letters from -questions that mentioned the recent CD releases, and how XFree86 on those releases were optimized for the current branch. I may have misinterpreted those letters. > > My question is, Is there anything specific to FreeBSD 2.2.2-R > > that needs to be changed to best run XFree86-3.3; such as > > Nope. Thank you. Had to ask. > > The reason I'm asking, is that while 3.3 runs fine on this system, > > the XF86_SVGA server fails to restart after the first 'startx' > > session is closed on a freshly booted system. (running startx > > a second time results on a frozen keyboard and a blank screen). > > That's weird - I can't say that I've seen this happen with my own > XF86_SVGA server (running 2.2-stable). I'm still looking around here for clues. It's a SCSI setup, might just be a bad cable. Or as the IBM UltraStar manual says, the screws might be too long, causing a short. Barry Masterson jbarrm@panix.com >--->--->--->--->---> FreeBSD 2.2.2-R <---<---<---<---<---< From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:51:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11662 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA11657 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA26133 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:51:32 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA02807; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:27:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970803092744.TT56477@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:27:44 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: rc.shutdown References: <199708021907.MAA06706@precipice.shockwave.com> <199708022202.IAA14912@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199708022202.IAA14912@unique.usn.blaze.net.au>; from David Nugent on Aug 3, 1997 08:02:11 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As David Nugent wrote: Btw., thank you for doing the deed. > I think special-casing its non-existance is probably > the way to go, in which case, the attempt to run it will simply be > skipped. Any objections? (no) > This should also make it easy to integrate into 2.2. I can't see any > reason not do do so, can you? I wouldn't mind, but leave it for a month or so in -current first. Btw., this now requires a sweep over the ports tree, so those ports that install a /usr/local/etc/rc.d/*.sh file can be converted to distinguish between `start' and `stop' arguments. /etc/rc used to call these scripts with `start' for quite some time already, but the scripts usually ignore it (AFAIK). Once this is done, rc.shutdown could implement the complementary calls to /etc/rc. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:56:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11846 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA11841 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id RAA07506; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:51:30 +1000 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:51:30 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199708030751.RAA07506@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: jbarrm@panix.com, sherwink@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I am having a similar problem. See Problem Report bin/4189. It appears >to be related to my use of ppp on a modem on cuaa3. I am running 2.2.2 >off the CDROM, with the XFree86-3.3 and the SVGA server, with a Matrox >Millenium. If user ppp is not running, I can restart X as many times as >I like. With user ppp running, I get the freeze immediately after the >carriage-return is echoed. I have yet to figure out why or how to fix >it. Anyone have an idea? Some S3 boards uses the same i/o ports as sio3. You shouldn't use both sio3 and X these boards. Some S3 boards crash at boot time when sio3 is probed. You shouldn't configure sio3 if you have one of these boards (even if you don't use X). Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 00:58:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA11930 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA11907; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA13291; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:27:04 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708030757.RAA13291@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <199708021720.DAA00921@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> from David Nugent at "Aug 3, 97 03:20:12 am" To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:27:03 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent stands accused of saying: > > > > The correct answer to this is, of course, that any port that requires > > a specific Tcl version or range of versions should require one of > > those versions out of the ports collection. A port failing to operate > > regardless of the Tcl version in the base distribution is > > _fundamentally_broken_, and should be fixed. > > This is a gross over-simplification. > > The ports collection cannot ignore the rest of the system on which it is > installed. That's the whole point of this discussion. The whole point I am making is that if the ports collection is to avoid being an unbearable millstone around the neck of any further development, it _must_ survive as a separate entity. How much more plainly must this be put before people get it? > Upgrading the base system's version to an untested beta with some very > significant internal changes, even in -current, is the most stupid move > I have seen in the FreeBSD project since my involvement. ARGH! Why do people _insist_ on treating a moving development snapshot as though it were a production system? If you want or expect something to remain static, _use_a_post-RELEASE_verion. You said it yourself; this is -current, you _must_ expect things to change. Tcl is obviously remaining in the tree because it is or will be fundamental to upcoming system components; this much is obvious. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 01:05:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12354 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12340 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id SAA27204; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:04:40 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970803180440.07410@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:04:40 +1000 From: David Dawes To: Sherwin Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX References: <33E42F5E.41C67EA6@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <33E42F5E.41C67EA6@ix.netcom.com>; from Sherwin on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:12:30AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:12:30AM -0700, Sherwin wrote: >I am having a similar problem. See Problem Report bin/4189. It appears >to be related to my use of ppp on a modem on cuaa3. I am running 2.2.2 >off the CDROM, with the XFree86-3.3 and the SVGA server, with a Matrox >Millenium. If user ppp is not running, I can restart X as many times as >I like. With user ppp running, I get the freeze immediately after the >carriage-return is echoed. I have yet to figure out why or how to fix >it. Anyone have an idea? cuaa3 (aka COM4) has an I/O address clash with quite a few graphics chips. I didn't know that this was specifically a problem with the Millennium, but then I haven't checked. It is known to be a problem for most chips that have their roots in the old IBM 8514/A (like S3 and ATI chips). However, I'd expect such a lockup to happen after the Xserver had printed out its initial startup messages. Do you see the same problem if you use a different serial port for ppp? David From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 01:05:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12427 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12385; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA13330; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:07 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708030805.RAA13330@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: from Chuck Robey at "Aug 2, 97 01:54:35 pm" To: chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Chuck Robey) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:06 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey stands accused of saying: > > Another thing to consider is the basic cleanliness of FreeBSD to tcl > applications that don't arrive via the ports mechanism. Our present > environment is such that even a well written tcl app hasn't the least > chance of configuring itself correctly. In our respect for tcl, we've > constructed a tcl-hostile system. So far, the only problems I've encountered are with extensions which use the usual bogus autoconfigure shared-library searching mechanism and thus can't find the Tcl shared libraries. I'm curious as to what other problems you've seen... -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 01:22:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA12911 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12906 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA13370; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:52:10 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708030822.RAA13370@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: from Ade Lovett at "Aug 2, 97 09:53:35 pm" To: ade@demon.net Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:52:10 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ade Lovett stands accused of saying: > "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > > >That option's already been discussed to death. ;-) > > *smile* I'm sure it has.. dontcha just love the cyclic nature of > project management concepts? :) A cycle that can be comfortably avoided if the participants had the common courtesy to read up on the issues at hand before inserting their feet in their mouths. This entire issue has been _resolved_, publically, at _least_ twice. The common resolutions were : - maintain the status quo for now. - work on developing an improved structure concept and management tools for properly handling the variant components of the system. It seems that people find it much easier to puff up their egoes by _arguing_ about the terrible state of current affairs than actually _do_ anything about them. > Until the decision is made about the way forward, however, then > much of the talk here is moot. The decisions have been made. What is notable is the absence of any initiative on the part of the plaintiffs with regard to anything beyond their narrow, kneejerk agendas. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 01:34:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA13423 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA13386 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA13424; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:03:49 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708030833.SAA13424@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <199708030052.KAA17855@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> from David Nugent at "Aug 3, 97 10:52:41 am" To: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:03:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent stands accused of saying: > > > >Now the obvious "answer" is to somehow integrate ports with things > >that depend on it in /usr/src > > No, wrong answer, imho. This makes things way too complex. You misunderstand Jordan's point. May I humbly suggest that you find an Irix weenie that knows their way around the system, and ask them to explain the inner workings of 'inst'. Then come back to the discussion with some new ideas. I emphasise the "knows" criteria above; said Irix weenie will need to be able to explain how interdependancy and death-hug mutual dependancy is handled, and preferably have built products using it. 'inst's user interface sucks; don't spend any time worrying about that; focus on the basic concepts. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 01:53:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA14413 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14408 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10533; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:51:34 +0200 (CEST) To: Michael Smith cc: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent), jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 18:03:49 +0930." <199708030833.SAA13424@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 10:51:34 +0200 Message-ID: <10531.870598294@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708030833.SAA13424@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, Michael Smith writes: >David Nugent stands accused of saying: >> > >> >Now the obvious "answer" is to somehow integrate ports with things >> >that depend on it in /usr/src >> >> No, wrong answer, imho. This makes things way too complex. > >You misunderstand Jordan's point. May I humbly suggest that you find >an Irix weenie that knows their way around the system, and ask them to >explain the inner workings of 'inst'. > >Then come back to the discussion with some new ideas. I emphasise the >"knows" criteria above; said Irix weenie will need to be able to >explain how interdependancy and death-hug mutual dependancy is >handled, and preferably have built products using it. 'inst's user >interface sucks; don't spend any time worrying about that; focus on >the basic concepts. > And for an encore, find somebody who knows how to install "nvix.bms.U345621" on an AIX 3.2.5.1 system, and have them explain how >that< works. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 01:56:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA14583 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14578 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA13491; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:26:22 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708030856.SAA13491@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: DMI anyone ? In-Reply-To: <8047.870593378@critter.dk.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Aug 3, 97 09:29:38 am" To: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:26:22 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, phk@dk.tfs.com, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying: > > > >See the earlier thread on SMBIOS/DMI, and Phoenix's tech stuff page > >for the SMBIOS spec. > > > >Bottom line : we need a means for making 16-bit BIOS calls (16-bit > >protected mode interface is part of the spec)... > > I was in that thread. This was more a question along the line of > > "would DMI/SMBIOS support (whatever it means) buy us anything ?" Oops, so you were. Apologies. IMHO, yes. If nothing else, it'd be a checkmark feature, but I think that there are a number of useful things that DMI could offer. On systems that support it, the extra information at the hardware level might be handy, but IMHO it's the higher-level management functions that would make it a winner; to be able to drop a BSD box into someone`s DMI schema and have it behave would be useful. Having said that, it's worth studying the recent history of DMI; a lot of people seem very lukewarm on it. > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 02:07:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA15233 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA15222 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asterix.xs4all.nl (root@asterix.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.11]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.6/XS4ALL) with ESMTP id LAA00693 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:07:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from plm.xs4all.nl (uucp@localhost) by asterix.xs4all.nl (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id LAA04492 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:07:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from plm@localhost) by plm.xs4all.nl (8.8.6/8.7.3) id KAA09248; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:40:47 +0200 (MET DST) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Handbook and FAQ gone in -current? From: Peter Mutsaers Date: 03 Aug 1997 10:40:46 +0200 Message-ID: <874t97irqp.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl> Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just did a make world. Everything's fine, but the handbook and the FAQ (/usr/share/doc) are gone. Why? Is this temporary? -- /\_/\ ( o.o ) Peter Mutsaers | Abcoude (Utrecht), | Trust me, I know ) ^ ( plm@xs4all.nl | the Netherlands | what I'm doing. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 02:45:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA16887 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peedub.gj.org (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA16873 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peedub.gj.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.gj.org (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA19759 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:44:13 GMT Message-Id: <199708031144.LAA19759@peedub.gj.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: clock_settime() error? Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Aug 1997 08:26:39 +0200." <199708030626.IAA06139@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 11:44:12 +0000 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John Hay writes: >Hi, > >I have been playing with the latest xntpd and I got "Can't set time of >day: Invalid argument" errors when it tried to step the time. I have >traced it to the clock_settime() system call in kern_time.c. I think >the test on line 171 is invalid: > >------- > if ((error = copyin(SCARG(uap, tp), &ats, sizeof(ats))) != 0) > return (error); > if (atv.tv_usec < 0 || ats.tv_nsec >= 1000000000) > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > return (EINVAL); > TIMESPEC_TO_TIMEVAL(&atv, &ats); >------- > >At that time atv.tv_usec hasn't been assigned yet. It is only assigned a >value two lines late in the TIMESPEC_TO_TIMEVAL() macro. Shouldn't it be >ats.tv_sec? Or ats.tv_nsec maybe? > looks to me like it should be ats.tv_usec. It's checking the passed-in ^ values. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de Work - gjennejohn@frt.dec.com From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 02:45:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA16905 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peedub.gj.org (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA16886 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peedub.gj.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.gj.org (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA19777 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:44:36 GMT Message-Id: <199708031144.LAA19777@peedub.gj.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel Build Fails - AHC Error Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Aug 1997 20:57:07 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 11:44:35 +0000 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Simon Shapiro writes: >Hi Y'all, > >I know justin is on vacation, but did any of you encounter: > >cd ../../dev/aic7xxx; make obj; make >BINDIR=/usr/src/3.0/src/sys/compile/SENDERO-smp all install >yacc -d /usr/src/3.0/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/gram.y >/usr/obj/usr/src/3.0/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx created for >/usr/src/3.0/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx >yacc -d /usr/src/3.0/src/sys/dev/aic7xxx/gram.y >mv y.tab.c gram.c >mv y.tab.c gram.c >cd ../../dev/aic7xxx; make obj; make >BINDIR=/usr/src/3.0/src/sys/compile/SENDERO all install >cc -O -I. -c gram.c >mv: y.tab.c: No such file or directory >*** Error code 1 > >This is in current as of today. > I just made a kernel, and forced re-making the aic7xxx stuff by doing a "make clean" in /sys/dev/aic7xxx beforehand, with no errors. This is with CTM stuff grabbed late Saturday (MET). I could be missing the very latest stuff, but I don't remember seeing any changes to the aic7xxx code for a while. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de Work - gjennejohn@frt.dec.com From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 02:48:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA17038 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA17033 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA01537; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:47:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Peter Mutsaers cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Handbook and FAQ gone in -current? In-reply-to: Your message of "03 Aug 1997 10:40:46 +0200." <874t97irqp.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 02:47:44 -0700 Message-ID: <1533.870601664@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I just did a make world. Everything's fine, but the handbook and the > FAQ (/usr/share/doc) are gone. Why? Is this temporary? They're no longer part of /usr/src since the docs weren't version dependant. The doc-all collection will grab it for you. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 03:31:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA18439 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.algonet.se (angel.algonet.se [194.213.74.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA18434 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031031.DAA18434@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 27484 invoked from network); 3 Aug 1997 10:33:48 -0000 Received: from du117-0.ppp.algonet.se (HELO pegasys) (195.100.0.117) by angel.algonet.se with SMTP; 3 Aug 1997 10:33:48 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Johan Granlund" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:17:42 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Handbook and FAQ gone in -current? CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal References: Your message of "03 Aug 1997 10:40:46 +0200." <874t97irqp.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl> In-reply-to: <1533.870601664@time.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I just did a make world. Everything's fine, but the handbook and the > > FAQ (/usr/share/doc) are gone. Why? Is this temporary? > > They're no longer part of /usr/src since the docs weren't > version dependant. The doc-all collection will grab it for > you. > > Jordan > How about us that use CTM:src-cur. Must i convert to cvs-cur? I don't need the full cvs tree and would like to continue to only grab the src-tree with CTM /Johan > ___________________________________________________________ Internet: Johang@Algonet.se I don't even speak for myself From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 03:33:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA18543 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA18534 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA01731; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:33:04 -0700 (PDT) To: "Johan Granlund" cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Handbook and FAQ gone in -current? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:17:42 -0000." <199708031030.DAA01714@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 03:33:04 -0700 Message-ID: <1727.870604384@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How about us that use CTM:src-cur. Must i convert to cvs-cur? I don't > need the full cvs tree and would like to continue to only grab the > src-tree with CTM Good question - I don't know if a CTM collection has been set up for this yet. Anyone on the CTM side care to comment? Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 03:58:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA19350 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA19345 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id MAA11968; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:45:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA20131; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:29:57 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803122957.51452@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:29:57 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: John Polstra Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: second post: elf patches for -current References: <19970802111403.26993@klemm.gtn.com> <199708021603.JAA16383@austin.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708021603.JAA16383@austin.polstra.com>; from John Polstra on Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 09:03:08AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 09:03:08AM -0700, John Polstra wrote: > Let's put it this way: I've never been brave enough to try it. :-O > But I don't have a system that I'm willing to reinstall if > necessary. > > Looking forward to your report ... Well, it´s my one and only *working* system at home ... I think I don´t have the time to be brave *sigh* ;-) It would take to much time, to get stuff rearranged from backup. -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 03:59:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA19394 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA19377; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id MAA11940; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:45:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA19821; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:23:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803122321.15396@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:23:21 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Chuck Robey Cc: ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) References: <15692.870549801@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 11:36:41PM -0400 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 11:36:41PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > This argument is not really centered on being bloatist, at least not > totally. I would fight taking perl out of the kernel (I want perl5.004 > brought in) but I'll be pleased to see tcl make an exit. Might a > compromise be made, let tcl go away, in exchange for updating perl? The whole thing started with Satoshi´s citicism about the -current "circus". This came up because of great differences between -current and -stable, which makes it nearly impossible, to support a 1028 ports monster. So he wanted only to support -stable in the future. But I think this is a step behind. Ports have to be buildable on -current and -stable, because : a) -current is the next upcoming -stable release b) people like me, who have only one machine, usually run the bleeding edge, c) people who have interest in trying SMP are boud to current Figure out, if ports are only made for stable ... If -current does more and more incompatible changes to -stable ... Who should done the fine work of porting perhaps 1250 ports to -current, which will become 3.0-RELEASE and 3.0-STABLE after that ??? I think the only question is ... what has to be done now, that ports are buildable under -current _AND_ -stable fine without too much problems. So to say .... This is not a decision of dropping a pet toy, it is a decision of a release engineer, who is responsible for the direction of the OS and that a ports collection doesn´t get out of sync with everything other than 2.2-STABLE. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 04:17:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA19878 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrimp.dataplex.net (shrimp.dataplex.net [208.2.87.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA19873 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.2.87.4] (user4.dataplex.net [208.2.87.4]) by shrimp.dataplex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA29372; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:16:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: rkw@mail.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1727.870604384@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:17:42 -0000." <199708031030.DAA01714@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:14:08 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: Handbook and FAQ gone in -current? Cc: "Johan Granlund" , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reference to the creation of a separate tree for the documentation -- At 5:33 AM -0500 8/3/97, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> How about us that use CTM:src-cur. Must i convert to cvs-cur? I don't >> need the full cvs tree and would like to continue to only grab the >> src-tree with CTM > >Good question - I don't know if a CTM collection has been set up for >this yet. Anyone on the CTM side care to comment? As of the moment, it has not. However, I guess I will be doing so just as soon as I can learn what changes have occurred in the tree and set things up with the FreeBSD postmaster. Would the keeper of this tree please contact me so I can learn some more details. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 04:20:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA19994 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA19988 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 3 Aug 97 06:20:23 -0500 Received: from pub-30-c-172.dialup.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 3 Aug 97 06:20:22 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:17:36 -0500 (CDT) From: dave adkins To: current@freebsd.org Subject: DMI bad checksum Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, The new bios.c fails on my Tyan S1563D with the Award 4.01 bios. The table retrieved with dd ibs=16 skip=57344 if=/dev/mem | hexdump -C | more looks like (results offset 0xe0000): 00015d10 5f 44 4d 49 5f 05 ff 02 00 10 0f 00 23 00 20 49 |_DMI_.......#. I| 00015d20 4d 44 24 23 00 49 00 67 8e 45 16 bf 1f 5d 26 81 |MD$#.I.g.E...]&.| It looks like the Award bios incorrectly assigns the trailing pad bytes. Also the 0x20 at 0x15d1e must be included in the checksum for a zero result. dave adkins From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 04:27:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA20167 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20162 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (fh-ppp23.monmouth.com [205.164.221.55]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA14535; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id HAA01868 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:27:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199708031127.HAA01868@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <10531.870598294@critter.dk.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Aug 3, 97 10:51:34 am" To: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And for an encore, find somebody who knows how to install "nvix.bms.U345621" > on an AIX 3.2.5.1 system, and have them explain how >that< works. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. If you really want to know how this works -- I used to roll up packages for distribution with NetView at IBM. They are just a backup (by inode) file with six (I think) additional files -- an install script, a deinstall script, a preinstall script and a postinstall script and a postdeinstall script and a list of dependencies and a fileset listing. Among the things the installp program does is unpack the backup set, check the dependancies, run the preinstall script, run the install script. To deinstall there's a deinstall script and a postdeinstall script What do you need to know about the nvix.bms.U345621 -- it's a patch (PTF) to the nvix.bms fileset. The ptf's are similar in structure to the installp filesets. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 04:29:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA20270 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.tamis.com (tamis.com [206.24.116.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20265; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daveh@localhost) by sage.tamis.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA16394; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:28:06 -0700 (PDT) From: David Holloway To: ports@FreeBSD.ORG cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <19970803122321.15396@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA20266 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk maybe I am just being ignorant, but.... just how difficult can this be??? how different do ports-current and ports-stable have to be? (unless 2.x and 3.x are completely non portable between each other, in which case.. that is a mistake) the existence of ports-stable could be considered a walnut-creek-cdrom issue. -------------------------- personally, I think perl sucks, it leads to poor code. but it is deeply accepted that perl4 should be found on all systems, (No we dont have to follow linux junkies and make perl5 default. while doing some porting, I discovered that linux(redhat) has ppmtoxpm and bmptoppm in /usr/bin ?? what is up with that? my point? tcl and perl5 dont belong in the base.) On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 11:36:41PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > > This argument is not really centered on being bloatist, at least not > > totally. I would fight taking perl out of the kernel (I want perl5.004 > > brought in) but I'll be pleased to see tcl make an exit. Might a > > compromise be made, let tcl go away, in exchange for updating perl? > > The whole thing started with Satoshi´s citicism about the > -current "circus". > > This came up because of great differences between -current > and -stable, which makes it nearly impossible, to support > a 1028 ports monster. > > So he wanted only to support -stable in the future. But I think > this is a step behind. > Ports have to be buildable on -current and -stable, because : > a) -current is the next upcoming -stable release > b) people like me, who have only one machine, usually > run the bleeding edge, > c) people who have interest in trying SMP are boud to > current > > Figure out, if ports are only made for stable ... If -current > does more and more incompatible changes to -stable ... Who > should done the fine work of porting perhaps 1250 ports > to -current, which will become 3.0-RELEASE and 3.0-STABLE after > that ??? > > I think the only question is ... what has to be done now, > that ports are buildable under -current _AND_ -stable fine > without too much problems. > > So to say .... > > This is not a decision of dropping a pet toy, it is > a decision of a release engineer, who is responsible > for the direction of the OS and that a ports collection > doesn´t get out of sync with everything other than 2.2-STABLE. > > Andreas /// > > -- > Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by > Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html > From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 04:43:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA20649 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20638 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11871; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:41:09 +0200 (CEST) To: pechter@lakewood.com cc: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp), freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 07:27:07 EDT." <199708031127.HAA01868@i4got.lakewood.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 13:41:08 +0200 Message-ID: <11869.870608468@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, all of that I knew, but you clearly have never tried to install that one particular file :-) Somehow it entices the AIX install stuff to install anything it has everheard about, and then (12 hours later) it will tell you that it cannot continue because it is still missing the following pieces (insert long list here of bits already installed). The problem with "micro-compartementalism" is that people are far more likely to hit "all" instead of spending a couple of ours to go through the check list. The fact that more than 75% of the AIX systems I've been logged into here in Denmark has japanese and korean message catalogs installed underlines this problem. Poul-Henning In message <199708031127.HAA01868@i4got.lakewood.com>, Bill Pechter writes: >> And for an encore, find somebody who knows how to install "nvix.bms.U345621" >> on an AIX 3.2.5.1 system, and have them explain how >that< works. >> >> -- >> Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > >If you really want to know how this works -- I used to roll up packages >for distribution with NetView at IBM. > >They are just a backup (by inode) file with six (I think) additional files -- >an install script, a deinstall script, a preinstall script and a postinstall >script and a postdeinstall script and a list of dependencies and a fileset >listing. > >Among the things the installp program does is unpack the backup set, >check the dependancies, run the preinstall script, run the install script. >To deinstall there's a deinstall script and a postdeinstall script > >What do you need to know about the nvix.bms.U345621 -- it's a patch (PTF) >to the nvix.bms fileset. The ptf's are similar in structure to the >installp filesets. > >Bill > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 908-389-3592 > pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. > This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 05:06:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA21378 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21355; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA13930; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:36:15 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708031206.VAA13930@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: from David Holloway at "Aug 3, 97 04:28:06 am" To: daveh@tamis.com (David Holloway) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:36:15 +0930 (CST) Cc: ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Holloway stands accused of saying: > > (No we dont have to follow linux junkies and make perl5 default. > while doing some porting, I discovered that linux(redhat) > has ppmtoxpm and bmptoppm in /usr/bin ?? what is up with that? > my point? tcl and perl5 dont belong in the base.) > This is a clear case of confusing perl/tcl-as-system-component with perl/tcl-as-user-convenience. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 05:12:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA21685 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA21680 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA15606; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:11:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sjx-ca30-16.ix.netcom.com(204.31.235.176) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015489; Sun Aug 3 07:11:14 1997 Received: (from asami@localhost) by blimp.mimi.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) id FAA01496; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031211.FAA01496@blimp.mimi.com> To: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708022133.HAA14498@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> (message from David Nugent on Sun, 03 Aug 1997 07:33:39 +1000) Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * From: David Nugent This post contains most of what I wanted to say, so let me just quote the relevant points and add a useless "me too !" message to the debate. :) * I don't care one way or another about "bloat". It is irrelevent * to the point I was making. Me too. I have gobs of disk space (I just got a 9GB drive as a replacement as a 4GB drive...gotta love those folks at Quantum :). What I'm concerned is consistency, manageability, timeliness, etc. * The ports system, in spite of its faults and shortfalls, *works*, * and works extremely well, mainly because of the efforts of porters * and Satoshi's management. But I hardly need to point this out to You can also include Jordan for coming up with the idea and implementing it first. (And as usual, when Americans make something, a Japanese (me) comes in to improve the product. :) * That * point of view misses the issue entirely. tcl is a major headache * in terms of multiple version operability. Yes. I should have yelled louder when tcl75 went in -- if I haven't read Prof. Ousterhout's release notes to tcl74/tk40 that he "made some mistakes, and wanted to correct them before too late -- tk40 is that correction" (paraphrased) and believed that that is the last time he would say that, I would have. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 05:44:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA22583 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA22578 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA16691; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:44:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sjx-ca30-16.ix.netcom.com(204.31.235.176) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma016689; Sun Aug 3 07:44:02 1997 Received: (from asami@localhost) by blimp.mimi.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) id FAA01581; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031244.FAA01581@blimp.mimi.com> To: phk@dk.tfs.com CC: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <2825.870592597@critter.dk.tfs.com> (message from Poul-Henning Kamp on Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:16:37 +0200) Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * I wonder how many of you whould have written similar to * argue against the inclusion of awk, sed, yacc, lex & csh, * using the very same arguments, in earlier days of unix ? This is the funniest message I've seen in the whole thread. How can you compare all those utilities written by the Unix developers themselves with external software whose incompatilibity between versions are yanking us around? Nobody's (well, not me anyway) talking about "bloat" here. * Tcl and perl represent a significant development in programming, * and you guys argue that they should not be in our favourite * state-of-the-art UNIX ? They absolutely should be. Didn't I say that? That is why I would like to give the user the choice, using the ports collection. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 06:28:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23757 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA23752 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA19507; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:28:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sjx-ca30-16.ix.netcom.com(204.31.235.176) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma019496; Sun Aug 3 08:27:50 1997 Received: (from asami@localhost) by blimp.mimi.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) id GAA01671; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031327.GAA01671@blimp.mimi.com> To: ady@warp.starnets.ro CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Penisoara Adrian on Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:22:26 +0300 (EEST)) Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * Not only that, the ports should be buildable on every version of * FreeBSD, if possible; it comes to my mind something like GNU's autoconfig * scripts... This is actually not the problem with the mechanism; it's basically that of manpower. If there is someone out there who is willing to spend the time to make all ports work for 2.1.7, I'm all for it. The problem is that we *have to* make the ports work on the next release, and that's why we need to choose 2.2-stable over 2.1.7 when we need to make a choice. As I said in the long message that started all this, we all have been working very hard to make all ports work on 2.2-stable, 3.0-current as well as 2.2.1R + upgrade kit and 2.2.2R + upgrade kit. (And it was working, until now.) Note that even if we choose to support 3.0-current instead, it won't be a pretty sight if tcl-8.0beta2 stays in the tree. Most of the tcl/tk ports are written for tk-4.[12], meaning they need tcl-7.[56]. So users will end up installing a new version into /usr/local anyway. This hardship of transition is exactly why I would like to avoid having tcl in the base system. * I'd really like to see *one* single ports tree, buildable on every * FreeBSD version; this might be hard, I know, but I think it well worths * working on it. Yeah, it's hard. ;) Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 06:32:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23943 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA23936 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA20043; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:32:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sjx-ca30-16.ix.netcom.com(204.31.235.176) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma019986; Sun Aug 3 08:31:40 1997 Received: (from asami@localhost) by blimp.mimi.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) id GAA01683; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031331.GAA01683@blimp.mimi.com> To: phk@dk.tfs.com CC: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <1773.870545118@critter.dk.tfs.com> (message from Poul-Henning Kamp on Sat, 02 Aug 1997 20:05:18 +0200) Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * Because -current is "not yet release code" and tcl8.0b2 is "almost but * not quite release code". Beta testing on an outside, master distribution and beta testing on our side is an entirely different issue. Of course we have to test changes to our own in system in -current; but there is no reason why we would have to test someone else's beta software in our system (that's what ports is for!). Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 06:40:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA24150 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24145 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA07620; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:39:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sjx-ca30-16.ix.netcom.com(204.31.235.176) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma007611; Sun Aug 3 08:39:24 1997 Received: (from asami@localhost) by blimp.mimi.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) id GAA01694; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031339.GAA01694@blimp.mimi.com> To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com CC: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19970803122321.15396@klemm.gtn.com> (message from Andreas Klemm on Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:23:21 +0200) Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * So he wanted only to support -stable in the future. But I think * this is a step behind. I perfectly understand that. * Figure out, if ports are only made for stable ... If -current * does more and more incompatible changes to -stable ... Who * should done the fine work of porting perhaps 1250 ports * to -current, which will become 3.0-RELEASE and 3.0-STABLE after * that ??? That is a very good point, one that I should have mentioned in my first post. * This is not a decision of dropping a pet toy, it is * a decision of a release engineer, who is responsible * for the direction of the OS and that a ports collection * doesn't get out of sync with everything other than 2.2-STABLE. The only problem is that there is no "release engineer" that does all that; Jordan (among others) does the releases, but I build the packages. I think what you are saying is closer to David's job (as the Principal Architect) than Jordan's though. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 06:47:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA24374 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24363 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA24164; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:46:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sjx-ca30-16.ix.netcom.com(204.31.235.176) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma024156; Sun Aug 3 08:46:10 1997 Received: (from asami@localhost) by blimp.mimi.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) id GAA01715; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031346.GAA01715@blimp.mimi.com> To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19970803122321.15396@klemm.gtn.com> (message from Andreas Klemm on Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:23:21 +0200) Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk One more thing I forgot to mention.... * I think the only question is ... what has to be done now, * that ports are buildable under -current _AND_ -stable fine * without too much problems. Keeping -current and -stable as close as possible is one such way. That is why I've been merging many things from -current and -stable myself. If people, as they commit something to -current, can either merge it to -stable right away (for simple bugfixes) or at least make a note to merge it after a couple of weeks themselves, it will make our jobs much easier (and will also make the upcoming 2.2.5 release much better). Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 07:01:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA25126 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genghis.eng.demon.net (root@genghis.eng.demon.net [193.195.45.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA25119 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genghis.eng.demon.net [193.195.45.10] (ade) by genghis.eng.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0wv1Dt-00007z-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:01:29 +0100 To: hoek@hwcn.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued Organization: Demon Internet Ltd. Reply-To: ade@demon.net In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Aug 1997 23:18:26 EDT." Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 15:01:29 +0100 From: Ade Lovett Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek writes: > >This is what I've proposed except without the binary >dependencies. The reason for not adding automated package is >that the pkg_* system has no way of knowing how to fetch a >package from the 'net. Eg. I will sometimes download a package >through the FreeNet, which means that I, > > [snip] > >4. Download it with Zmodem. > >pkg_add has no way of knowing how to do this. pkg_add doesn't, no. However, by the addition of another command, say pkg_register, one could grab a binary package by whatever means, and then say "I've downloaded this package, I've put it somewhere, so if you need it at any future point, I have it already" >I have a suspicion you lack some familiarity with the existing >ports system. :) Well, yes and no. It would appear that there are going to be some subtle differences between the existing ports/packages system, and the possible way forward, when the system is extended to handle a completely compartmentalised OS. Taking a little step back from the problem at hand, and looking at things in a more general sense, may (or may not) raise issues that would otherwise be missed (for whatever reason). >Regardless, in concept, the above is what I am suggesting. > >I want a new ports category, entitled "meta" (or whatever). >Sysinstall would allow the user to choose which meta-packages >they want installed. It would do this in such a way that these >meta-packages seem like equal peer parts of the system. We already have something like this, with the way in which sysinstall handles 'src', which gives the option of everything, or bits and pieces. The compartmentalised OS could be dealt with in a similar manner: bin/ bin-base bin-perl bin-tcl ... bin-ALL No? -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Demon Internet Ltd. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 07:08:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA25417 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genghis.eng.demon.net (root@genghis.eng.demon.net [193.195.45.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA25406 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genghis.eng.demon.net [193.195.45.10] (ade) by genghis.eng.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0wv1Js-00008Z-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:07:40 +0100 To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued Organization: Demon Internet Ltd. Reply-To: ade@demon.net In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:16:37 +0200." <2825.870592597@critter.dk.tfs.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 15:07:40 +0100 From: Ade Lovett Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > >I wonder how many of you whould have written similar to >argue against the inclusion of awk, sed, yacc, lex & csh, >using the very same arguments, in earlier days of unix ? > >Tcl and perl represent a significant development in programming, >and you guys argue that they should not be in our favourite >state-of-the-art UNIX ? That's not what anyone is saying at all. Of course perl and tcl should be in our favorite Unix. Just not as core components in the same way that init, getty, sh are core components. They should be handled as packages and ports (in a general sense), outside of the core system that absolutely, positively, definitely needs to be there to have any kind of runnable Unix system. -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Demon Internet Ltd. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 07:24:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA25920 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25915 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA14181; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:54:11 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708031424.XAA14181@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: from Ade Lovett at "Aug 3, 97 03:01:29 pm" To: ade@demon.net Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:54:11 +0930 (CST) Cc: hoek@hwcn.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ade Lovett stands accused of saying: > > The compartmentalised OS could be dealt with in a similar manner: > > bin/ > bin-base > bin-perl > bin-tcl > ... > bin-ALL > > No? Again; this has all been discussed before. If you strongly believe that something should be done, I humbly suggest that you should put your shoulder where your yapper is and commence a survey of the system in order to group the various components currently shipped as "bin" into a striaghtforward set of half a dozen or so functional groups. As a leader here, the following should be relatively straightforward : - core "basic" system binaries - uucp obvious - development tools for software development - text text-manipulation tools (eg man(1) and friends) - obscure weird stuff that people with beards and grey hair use - games obvious Then you might try a couple of overlapping sets : - posix an explicit "posix-only" footprint - SUS likewise for the "Singlue Unix Specification" I'm not suggesting you have to write the tools, or any of the infrastructure, purely and simply create, and _MAINTAIN_ these lists in a form that leads itself to public discussion of the groupings. This step is crucial to any further progress in this argument; without this work being done, we will achieve nothing. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 07:28:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26109 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:28:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genghis.eng.demon.net (root@genghis.eng.demon.net [193.195.45.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26103 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genghis.eng.demon.net [193.195.45.10] (ade) by genghis.eng.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0wv1dz-00009M-00; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:28:27 +0100 To: Michael Smith cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued Organization: Demon Internet Ltd. Reply-To: ade@demon.net In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 23:54:11 +0930." <199708031424.XAA14181@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 15:28:27 +0100 From: Ade Lovett Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith writes: > >If you strongly believe that something should be done, I humbly >suggest that you should put your shoulder where your yapper is and >commence a survey of the system in order to group the various >components currently shipped as "bin" into a striaghtforward set of >half a dozen or so functional groups. Spookily enough, that's *exactly* what I'm in the process of doing right now, ploughing through the entire source tree, and trying to come up with a workable list of components. -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Demon Internet Ltd. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 07:34:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26495 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26490 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id AAA14231; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:04:34 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708031434.AAA14231@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: from Ade Lovett at "Aug 3, 97 03:28:27 pm" To: ade@demon.net Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:04:33 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ade Lovett stands accused of saying: > >commence a survey of the system in order to group the various > >components currently shipped as "bin" into a striaghtforward set of > >half a dozen or so functional groups. > > Spookily enough, that's *exactly* what I'm in the process of doing > right now, ploughing through the entire source tree, and trying > to come up with a workable list of components. Please do; and more importantly, if you're serious about this, please _stick_with_it_. This is not some short, once-done task but a vital and ongoing process which will have a very substantial bearing on the future shape of FreeBSD. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 07:54:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA27406 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whizzo.TransSys.COM (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27399 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.TransSys.COM (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21556; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708031454.KAA21556@whizzo.TransSys.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: ade@demon.net cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 15:07:40 BST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 10:54:06 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Tcl and perl represent a significant development in programming, > >and you guys argue that they should not be in our favourite > >state-of-the-art UNIX ? > > That's not what anyone is saying at all. Of course perl and tcl > should be in our favorite Unix. Just not as core components in > the same way that init, getty, sh are core components. Like 3270 emulators, highly-device specific user-level code like "stlload - Stallion Technologies multiport serial board down loader", and an X-10 home automation daemon? You've stepped out on to a very slippery slope here, and ultimately it's a judgement call and a matter of taste. louie From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 08:03:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA27702 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA27697 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id AAA14314; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:32:51 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708031502.AAA14314@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: DMI bad checksum In-Reply-To: from dave adkins at "Aug 3, 97 06:17:36 am" To: adkin003@gold.tc.umn.edu (dave adkins) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:32:50 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dave adkins stands accused of saying: > > The new bios.c fails on my Tyan S1563D with the Award 4.01 bios. Is it failing. or just complaining bitterly? > 015d10 5f 44 4d 49 5f 05 ff 02 00 10 0f 00 23 00 20 49 |_DMI_.......#. I| This translates to : cksum : 0x05 structure table length : 0x02ff structure table address : 0x0f1000 number of structures : 0x0023 DMI spec revision : 2.0 Note that due to a typo in the spec I was working from, the DMI structure is oversized by one byte. > It looks like the Award bios incorrectly assigns the trailing pad bytes. > Also the 0x20 at 0x15d1e must be included in the checksum for a zero > result. That's correct, there are only supposed to be 15 bytes counted for the checksum, not 16. This one was my error 8) Any interest in writing some code to parse the structure tables? There's a comprehensive reference at : http://www.ptltd.com/techs/smbios/htframe.html Thanks, -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 08:58:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA29698 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29673 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id RAA20056 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:45:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA01306; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:45:26 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803164526.09589@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:45:26 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued References: <1773.870545118@critter.dk.tfs.com> <199708031331.GAA01683@blimp.mimi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708031331.GAA01683@blimp.mimi.com>; from Satoshi Asami on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 06:31:37AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 06:31:37AM -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > [ phk ] > * Because -current is "not yet release code" and tcl8.0b2 is "almost but > * not quite release code". > > Beta testing on an outside, master distribution and beta testing on > our side is an entirely different issue. Of course we have to test > changes to our own in system in -current; but there is no reason why > we would have to test someone else's beta software in our system > (that's what ports is for!). Yes. -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 08:59:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA29764 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29759 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 08:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id RAA20053; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:45:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA01294; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:44:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803164411.01427@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:44:11 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: David Nugent Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued References: <17040.870566767@time.cdrom.com> <199708030052.KAA17855@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708030052.KAA17855@unique.usn.blaze.net.au>; from David Nugent on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 10:52:41AM +1000 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 10:52:41AM +1000, David Nugent wrote: > > I already suggested a better solution to this a few weeks ago > in private email, in which I cc'd you. [...] > > I suggest that sysinstall and the release tools do not belong > under src/ in the repository. They belong in a separate place, > say "release/", and don't even need to track the same CVS tags. > 95% of the commits you do on sysinstall are to all three > branches, which I'm sure must be a headache for you. Certainly, > the target for sysinstall needs to be modified based on release > version, but you can handle this using makefile and preprocessor > tags rather than CVS revisions (which is infinitely more complex > to maintain, I'm sure). Good idea ! -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 09:09:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00261 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00246; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id RAA20048; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:45:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id QAA01620; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:51:52 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803165152.07652@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:51:52 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Dmitrij Tejblum Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued References: <199708021013.TAA09852@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <199708021824.WAA00744@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708021824.WAA00744@tejblum.dnttm.rssi.ru>; from Dmitrij Tejblum on Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 10:24:30PM +0400 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 10:24:30PM +0400, Dmitrij Tejblum wrote: > > Ports should have less (or no) "official" support on -current. > > No. Ports should have more (full) "official" support for 2.2. If > Satoshi can not build packages for both 2.2 and -current, I prefer > packages for 2.2. You don´t get the point, that -current of today is -release and -stable of tomorrow. If -current changes to much, who will port the 1200 applications to 3.0 if that becomes the next release ;) -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 09:10:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00365 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00333 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id RAA20062; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:45:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA02897; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:57 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803173557.33417@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:35:57 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Satoshi Asami , phk@dk.tfs.com Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued References: <2825.870592597@critter.dk.tfs.com> <199708031244.FAA01581@blimp.mimi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708031244.FAA01581@blimp.mimi.com>; from Satoshi Asami on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 05:44:00AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 05:44:00AM -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > [ Phk ]: > * I wonder how many of you whould have written similar to > * argue against the inclusion of awk, sed, yacc, lex & csh, > * using the very same arguments, in earlier days of unix ? > > This is the funniest message I've seen in the whole thread. How can > you compare all those utilities written by the Unix developers > themselves with external software whose incompatilibity between > versions are yanking us around? Poul, Satoshi has technical problems to keep the ports collection in sync for -stable and -current. Only _this_ brought up this discussion, which of course ended up in a bloat vs. anti bloat campaign ;-) The question is, how do we get Satoshi and the others motivated, to support the huge port monster in the future for -current and -stable. This only seems to be possible, if -current and -stable aren´t too different. Perhaps Satoshi should go into details and tell us more verbose his concrete problems with the inclusion of tcl 8.0 and such. Another thing ... another question might be, if - this is only a "head up folks" from Satoshi, because he has so much work to do to keep all ports running and such changes produce more work and "headaches" - or if it really breaks something. Anyway, we should be able to find a way that makes it possible, that Satoshi likes to continue his very valuable work for both, -current and -stable ! Again, I´m against supporting the ports collection only for -stable, because of the disadvantages already mentioned by me. Please try to work towards a productive consens. Satoshi, another thing ... might it be acceptable only this time, that tcl stays in the main tree, because people want to have it to write tools for the main system ? Or - what sounds like another good suggestion - should the release and admin stuff go into a separate cvs repository apart from src/ ? Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 09:14:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00514 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcpsj.pfcs.com (QyA4Lid2pQ8c+DHnWkVyA+eA20129s4S@harlan.fred.net [205.252.219.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00509 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mumps.pfcs.com (mumps.pfcs.com [192.52.69.11]) by pcpsj.pfcs.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA29619 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by mumps.pfcs.com with SMTP id AA06844 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:14:28 -0400 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: ade@demon.net's message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 15:28:27 BST." Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:14:26 -0300 Message-Id: <6842.870624866@mumps.pfcs.com> From: Harlan Stenn Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For whatever it's worth, "make" is a reasonably useful tool for checking dependencies of packages. The metaconfig package uses "make" to select and order the "units" that go into a Configure script. Similar technology could be used to select and install the right set of packages to be installed. I, for one, would like to be able to select {qmail,sendmail}, or bind[48] when it's time to install a system. I suspect there may be other similiar cases, too. H From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 09:36:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01420 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcpsj.pfcs.com (uFO4lLm+5JeH4LIVn/HPtjf6Pi3HyAAP@harlan.fred.net [205.252.219.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01414 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mumps.pfcs.com (mumps.pfcs.com [192.52.69.11]) by pcpsj.pfcs.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA29737 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by mumps.pfcs.com with SMTP id AA06903 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:36:11 -0400 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: louie@TransSys.COM's message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 10:54:06 EDT." <199708031454.KAA21556@whizzo.TransSys.COM> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:36:09 -0300 Message-Id: <6901.870626169@mumps.pfcs.com> From: Harlan Stenn Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Like 3270 emulators, highly-device specific user-level code like > "stlload - Stallion Technologies multiport serial board down loader", > and an X-10 home automation daemon? You've stepped out on to a very > slippery slope here, and ultimately it's a judgement call and a > matter of taste. Agreed. I, for one, would rather see tcsh installed instead of csh, and I'd also rather have perl5 installed as the default perl, and only additionally install perl4 on the rare machine where there is some arcane script that really only runs under perl4. While I have no need for xten now, I might later, and I'd rather install it later. I can also see the need for keeping a "system profile" somewhere, so that site-wide and even machine-specific package can be stored so that a re-install can be performed with minimal interaction. Now to wait and see how soon before LDAP becomes more generally useful. H From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 10:03:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02585 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02577 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA15432 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:03:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: FreeBSD current Subject: /usr/src/usr.bin/ee Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This died on me during testing of Satoshi's Makefile. I looked at it, and I don't think it's right. I haven't seen any complaints on this yet, but here's the error I got: ===> usr.bin/ee install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 en_US.ISO_8859-1.ee.cat /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat install: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat: No such file or directory *** Error code 71 Looking at the ee Makefile, it looks like there's a small typo, because the following diff fixed it: RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/usr.bin/ee/Makefile,v retrieving revision 1.9 diff -u -r1.9 Makefile --- Makefile 1997/04/04 15:09:42 1.9 +++ Makefile 1997/08/03 16:55:51 @@ -21,7 +21,7 @@ beforeinstall: .for lang in ${LANGS} ${INSTALL} ${COPY} -o ${BINOWN} -g ${BINGRP} -m ${NOBINMODE} \ - ${lang}.ee.cat ${DESTDIR}${NLSDIR}/${lang}/ee.cat + ${lang}.ee.cat ${DESTDIR}${NLSDIR}/${lang}.ee.cat .endfor .include If someone else could verify that I'm not breaking things, I'll commit this. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 10:35:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04281 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04276 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA08660; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA07663; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:36:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:36:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hoek@hwcn.org, David Nugent , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <536.870586606@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > How does the ports system fail? > > > > Packages don't need sources. They are the moral equivalent to > > We're not talking about packages here - we're talking about > sources. I addressed the source issue. To repeat what I said before, but in brief to reduce the temptation to skip-over it, packages are used to install binary things just as sysinstall can install a binary-only system w/o sources when wanting source and binary pkgadd is followed by make extract make world checks /var/db/pkg for ports that need to be remaked I'm not volunteering to write this and the number of other extensions needed, since I think slow, evolutionary change is what is needed and I can't make a longterm commitment right now, but I am trying to show that the idea is not so undoable as you (seem to) try to make it sound. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 10:50:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04785 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04780 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09919; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA09448; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:50:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:50:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Ade Lovett cc: hoek@hwcn.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Ade Lovett wrote: > pkg_add doesn't, no. However, by the addition of another command, > say pkg_register, one could grab a binary package by whatever means, > and then say "I've downloaded this package, I've put it somewhere, > so if you need it at any future point, I have it already" I suppose the main use in this would be for CD-users who could tell pkg_register to go looking on the CD for the pkg. If you're going to go away from packaging all the dependancies of a meta-package inside its single package, then you need a way for CD users to tell pkg_add to automatically search the CD for packages and dialup users to search ftp.mirror.freebsd.org. A URL could point to the global package location (file://cdrom/packages, ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/packages-2.2.2, etc). This still does nothing for the situation (d/l via Zmodem) that I outlined, but I guess I can live with that. > We already have something like this, with the way in which sysinstall > handles 'src', which gives the option of everything, or bits and pieces. Yes, something "like" this. I'm saying it should be done through the existing ports system. If sysinstall wants to divide everything into a gazillion different compartments, I don't really care. I want to see these compartments done through the ports system because of the greater flexibility it provides. > bin/ > bin-base > bin-perl > bin-tcl > ... > bin-ALL > > No? Yes, but through an extended ports system. :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 10:51:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04874 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA04867 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id VAA20499; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:51:04 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:51:03 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: Chuck Robey cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: /usr/src/usr.bin/ee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > - ${lang}.ee.cat ${DESTDIR}${NLSDIR}/${lang}/ee.cat > + ${lang}.ee.cat ${DESTDIR}${NLSDIR}/${lang}.ee.cat There is no type here, so you fix nothing. I am against of commiting such sort of changes, better check your /usr/share/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat presence. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:04:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05543 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05535 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10914; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA11212; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: David Nugent cc: hoek@hwcn.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <199708030414.OAA20765@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, David Nugent wrote: > Doesn't a symbolic link from /usr/ports/distfiles to the CDROM work? > This is admittedly problematic if you keep your ports tree up to > date, but it's a reasonable workaround I've used occasionally. :) We have to keep all the unnecessary bytes off the user's hdd. If, during sysinstall-time, I'm grabbing the distfile from the ftp.freebsd.org, I don't want it sitting in /usr/ports/distfiles. I want it to be expanded, and thrown into the appropriate source directory, where it will get rebuilt the next time ``make world'' is run. BTW, it shouldn't be necessary to symlink /usr/ports/distfiles to /cdrom anymore. If you use MASTER_SITE_OVERRIDE, fetch(1) will recognize the file:// url and make a symlink from /usr/ports/distfiles/mydist.hqx to /cdrom/mydist.hqx. (Or, at least, it should. :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:09:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05772 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA05764 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA19037; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:08:53 -0400 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:09:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: /usr/src/usr.bin/ee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA05765 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, [KOI8-R] áÎÄŇĹĘ ţĹŇÎĎ× wrote: > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > - ${lang}.ee.cat ${DESTDIR}${NLSDIR}/${lang}/ee.cat > > + ${lang}.ee.cat ${DESTDIR}${NLSDIR}/${lang}.ee.cat > > There is no type here, so you fix nothing. I am against of commiting > such sort of changes, better check your > /usr/share/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat presence. OK, I just noticed in the original error listing: ===> usr.bin/ee install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 en_US.ISO_8859-1.ee.cat /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat install: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat: No such file or directory *** Error code 71 that it's installing itself into /usr/X11R6, which just has to be wrong. There's no mention in the ee Makefile of setting DESTDIR ... should there be? I checked, my /usr/share/nls does indeed have a en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat. I don't know all that much about the main tree Makefiles, Andrey, so if you see what's wrong, could you tell me? I'm was testing Satoshi's new Makefile, and I want to know if the trouble could possibly be in there. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:12:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06009 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06002 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id WAA20974; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:12:45 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:12:44 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: Chuck Robey cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: /usr/src/usr.bin/ee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > ===> usr.bin/ee > install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 en_US.ISO_8859-1.ee.cat > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat > install: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat: No such file or > directory > *** Error code 71 It seems that you set NLSDIR to /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls, just not do it. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:19:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06511 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06505 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA19279; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:19:26 -0400 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:19:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= cc: FreeBSD current Subject: Re: /usr/src/usr.bin/ee In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA06507 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, [KOI8-R] áÎÄŇĹĘ ţĹŇÎĎ× wrote: > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > ===> usr.bin/ee > > install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 en_US.ISO_8859-1.ee.cat > > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat > > install: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls/en_US.ISO_8859-1/ee.cat: No such file or > > directory > > *** Error code 71 > > It seems that you set NLSDIR to /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/nls, just not do it. Thanks, Andrey, that was indeed the problem. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:40:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07471 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07466; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04059; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:37:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:37:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Andreas Klemm cc: Chuck Robey , ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <19970803122321.15396@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: ... > So he wanted only to support -stable in the future. But I think > this is a step behind. > Ports have to be buildable on -current and -stable, because : > a) -current is the next upcoming -stable release Really? Probably not. I expect that there will be a 2.2.5 or something out soon. > b) people like me, who have only one machine, usually > run the bleeding edge, I don't believe this is true. I believe true number of bleeding edge users is small. Unless your are a developer, there is little benefit. Other than SMP, what is in current that would tempt people to use it? People with only one machine are not normally technically advanced to run current, because they don't have the resources to develop that experience. ... > Figure out, if ports are only made for stable ... If -current > does more and more incompatible changes to -stable ... Who Key point here. Basically no one can stop developers from making current incompatible with stable. Basically, if current developers agree not to break compatibility, the problem goes away. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:44:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07758 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07708; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id UAA14406; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:30:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA00719; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:17:31 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803201731.09375@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:17:31 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: phk@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, Satoshi Asami Subject: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) References: <87lo2pm55s.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> <199707301149.EAA04990@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199707301149.EAA04990@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>; from Satoshi Asami on Wed, Jul 30, 1997 at 04:49:59AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 30, 1997 at 04:49:59AM -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > Regarding the Tcl/Tk port (etc.): > > * When I updated tix ysterday evening (comitted in the meantime) I > * noticed that tk41 wants the tcl75 _port_, not tcl75 from the base > * system (someone should upgrade it in 2.2-STABLE or remove it (hi, > * phk)). tcl75 is also missing an entry in CVSROOT/modules. Whoever > * left this mess behind should fix it. > > After the latest fiasco, I am strongly inclined to discontinue support > of -current in the ports tree, at least until the current mess with > tcl is settled. tcl80 is BETA software at the master site, it doesn't > belong to -stable, it doesn't even belong to -current (IMO). It > wasn't tested in the ports tree, and it doesn't even have a > corresponding tk port. Well, after some theory, here comes the praxis. Satoshi, I have fully truely to agree with you, -current is currently a mess. This doesn´t have nothing to do with -current´s policy "it might break your system" with regards to some days of kernel instability or such ... Every tcl/tk related port is broken in -current, because the tcl 8.0 import seems to break everything. Can´t build _any_ tcl/tk related port in the moment. No tk41, no scotty, couldn´t finish work on an apache port with python support (because python depends on tk41, which doesn´t compile anymore), mrtg, tkman and so on .... I think it´s not intended to make -current to a system, that isn´t useable anymore for active developement work in the ports area, or am I mistaken ??? In the past one of our goals was, to use -current as our playground for new features, but as long as the system is still useable for the other people using -current. Currently -current is not in a useable state regarding active port developement. Ok, I could switch to -STABLE, but would loose SMP support. Oh fellows, this isn´t funny :-/ Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:47:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07956 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA07947; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04077; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:44:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:44:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: David Holloway cc: ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, David Holloway wrote: > how different do ports-current and ports-stable have to be? > (unless 2.x and 3.x are completely non portable > between each other, in which case.. that is a mistake) Exactly. Current developers need to agree to not break compatibility, and the problem is solved. Some ports (very few), that need access to various kernel may need to broken, but the number of such should be small. > the existence of ports-stable could be > considered a walnut-creek-cdrom issue. Huh? How so? Explain. > -------------------------- > personally, I think perl sucks, it leads to poor code. Bad programmers make bad code. Perl5 has all the elements of a structured language. However, it gives you enough flexibility to make bad code, but so does C. > (No we dont have to follow linux junkies and make perl5 default. Why not? Many apps assume perl5, many due to the all extra structure stuff in perl5. Plus, FreeBSD has perl scripts in the tree. These apps should be able to take advantage of the extra structured elements (like improved module support) too. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:52:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08443 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08436 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA02851; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:51:22 -0700 (PDT) To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) cc: ady@warp.starnets.ro, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 06:27:43 PDT." <199708031327.GAA01671@blimp.mimi.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 11:51:21 -0700 Message-ID: <2847.870634281@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Note that even if we choose to support 3.0-current instead, it won't > be a pretty sight if tcl-8.0beta2 stays in the tree. Most of the > tcl/tk ports are written for tk-4.[12], meaning they need tcl-7.[56]. > So users will end up installing a new version into /usr/local anyway. FWIW, I don't think that supporting ports in -current is a long term strategy for success anyway. Even if TCL had never made it into the tree, I can easily envision multiple other scenarios which would result in serious headaches for anyone trying to track a moving target (and for those who've thought that -current raced along at a breakneck pace in the past, let me just say "HA! You haven't seen anything yet - wait until the paid, full-time developers start coming online in more significant numbers"). I'd like to step outside the whole TCL fracas for a moment and consider this from a strategic point of view. Our most important branch of development from the customer POV is not -current, it's the current release branch. It's this branch which most needs packages built for it, it's this branch which most people will install off of CD and, if you look at the download stats on ftp.freebsd.org and other sites, it's the most popular download target. The folks who run -current are another breed, and I think it's also safe to say that they're the most capable of building their own packages and/or adapting ports to their use (and if they're not so capable, they probably should not be running -current in the first place). We have shown an alarming tendency up to now to "oversell" -current as the place to be and I see this as a very dangerous practice, only to become all the more dangerous once we start seriously wading in with the multiple platforms and (I think this is becoming a foregone conclusion) ELF support. Trying to match -current's rate of change in the ports collection is nothing more than a recipe for insanity and premature death among our ports team and I also think it's a waste of their time and abilities. Up until now we've had it exactly *backwards* in our policy of supporting -current and dropping support for the release branch quickly (something which has created a lot of ill-will in the user base, I might add, as reading USENET will show) and when I read Satoshi's announcement that he was dropping support for -current, I felt no dismay at all. I've always regarding this as inevitable, and having more attention paid to our release branch as a result can only be a good thing for the majority of our user base. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 11:52:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA08528 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA08522 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA04758; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708031852.LAA04758@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Andreas Klemm cc: John Polstra , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: second post: elf patches for -current In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:29:57 +0200." <19970803122957.51452@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 11:52:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA08523 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I will try to do it this week since I got a couple of ide disks laying around and it takes less than 15 minutes to install FreeBSD. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Andreas Klemm : > On Sat, Aug 02, 1997 at 09:03:08AM -0700, John Polstra wrote: > > Let's put it this way: I've never been brave enough to try it. :-O > > But I don't have a system that I'm willing to reinstall if > > necessary. > > > > Looking forward to your report ... > > Well, it´s my one and only *working* system at home ... > I think I don´t have the time to be brave *sigh* ;-) > > It would take to much time, to get stuff rearranged from backup. > > -- > Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by > Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:01:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA09173 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09167 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA02924; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:00:37 -0700 (PDT) To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 06:39:20 PDT." <199708031339.GAA01694@blimp.mimi.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:00:37 -0700 Message-ID: <2920.870634837@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > * Figure out, if ports are only made for stable ... If -current > * does more and more incompatible changes to -stable ... Who > * should done the fine work of porting perhaps 1250 ports > * to -current, which will become 3.0-RELEASE and 3.0-STABLE after > * that ??? > > That is a very good point, one that I should have mentioned in my > first post. That would be done during the lengthy BETA period, or perhaps sometime before that even starts. Again, to reference my previous posting on this, trying to track -current on an ongoing basis is just SILLY and it's only bound to get sillier as -current moves faster and faster. To make a poor analogy, if I've missed a train at the station do I run after the thing like a fool, yelling for the next 15 miles that it stop, or do I walk back to my car and drive to the next station in order to await the train's arrival there? I don't think that is a difficult question to answer, and similarly I see no point in trying to track -current as an ongoing thing. I'm not saving *any* work by doing so, I'm simply ensuring that each and every bump in the road is something I'm going to hit. By waiting until -current has gone through whatever unheavals we have planned for it and *then* going through the ports collection to see which ports are still relevant and which have build problems in whatever brave new world we've built, that strikes me as a far more sensible policy and one which will not leave the ports team stuck in some insane asylum once we start seriously beating the crap out of -current and shuffling the components around into new configurations. To put it another way, if something as minor as a new version of TCL going in screws up the ports collection this badly then we've already established that it's a frail mechanism in the face of changes in the base OS and we should no longer try and bend that mechanism to such an extent. TCL is just the tip of the iceberg where changes to -current are concerned, and trying to track multiple architectures (each of which needing its own package collection and potentially some ports changes) is only going to add to the misery. Let's stop trying to chase the moving train here, folks - Satoshi's decision was absolutely the right thing to do, even if for the "wrong" reasons! ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:29:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10905 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10899 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA21670; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:29:20 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:29:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian N. Handy" Reply-To: "Brian N. Handy" To: Tom Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Trimmed cc: back a bit...] [Brian jumps in the fray in spite of the cries "No! No!"] On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Tom wrote: [Now, stuff deleted so everything can be taken out of context] >[...] Plus, FreeBSD has perl scripts in the tree. These apps >should be able to take advantage of the extra structured elements (like >improved module support) too. Bah. I'd love to have perl5 in the tree...well, no. I'd like to be able to get Perl by myself so I can have Perl5.00[4567...] rather than whatever we have in the tree. If we import Perl5 we'll make sure to cut out all the stuff that comes with it so it's a half-baked import that only works most of the time, and then when I grab some port that needs perl5.00n+1, I'll end up grabbing the latest port *anyway* so I'll soon have two copies of perl5 on my machine. This is the problem I have with bloat in the source tree. It seems to rarely do any good to have Perl and tcl there since I end up with three copies of each anyway. Someone suggested that sysinstall should get it's own [cvs-speak term here for whatever happened to the docs a while ago]..."space" so it evolves on it's own. That just seemed like a wildly neat idea to me. Jordan and the sysinstall types would be happy (heh) since they'd have tcl. The newbies would be happy since they had the easiest-to-use sysinstall tool on the planet. And the rest of us could be happy because we could use it once and then nuke the whole sysinstall directory immediately and start installing whatever version[s] of tcl and tk and perl [...] we want at a particular moment, and not worry about how two concurrent versions of tcl or perl are causing grief. There's a strong chance I'm horribly naive on this. I see that Jordan desparately wants tcl to forge ahead, I just wish it was more disposable than it is now. I've also heard the arguments about how this is wrong, and someone immediately takes the extreme case -- that if we get rid of perl and tcl, then we've got to get rid of xten, tn3270, bleah, bleah, bleah. Yea whatever. I don't use xten, but then xten doesn't wreak havoc on my machine because I have three different versions of it trying to cohabitate on my system disk. Brian From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:31:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11044 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11039 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03130; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:30:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: David Nugent , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 16:44:11 +0200." <19970803164411.01427@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:30:23 -0700 Message-ID: <3126.870636623@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I suggest that sysinstall and the release tools do not belong > > under src/ in the repository. They belong in a separate place, > ... > Good idea ! Actually not. It's my intention that the release tools become less intrinsically "release tools" and more "system management tools", no different than utilities like ncrcontrol or tzsetup. This would hinder my ability to update setup in such a way that the next world build for somebody would update it. Having stale copies of sysinstall around in /stand has caused no end of trouble for people, and whereas I can at least now tell them to "cd /usr/src/release/sysinstall && make all install" to update these bits, I would have to add an extra step telling them how to cvsup this special release collection and how to build it. I'm already starting to get complaints about our splitting doc into its own subtree, and that's *docs*, not software which can potentially cause serious problems for you (I anticipate a few bugs in setup along the way ;-) if you have out-of-date versions. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:39:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11435 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11430 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04185; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:36:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Andreas Klemm cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <19970803201731.09375@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id MAA11431 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > Ok, I could switch to -STABLE, but would loose SMP support. I think it possible to boot a SMP kernel on a 2.2-stable system. Some kernel structures have changed, so there may be some impairment. > Oh fellows, this isn´t funny :-/ > > Andreas /// > > -- > Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by > Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:42:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11694 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from micron.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11689 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mini@localhost) by micron.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27804; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970803124548.00595@micron.efn.org> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:45:48 -0700 From: Jonathan Mini To: Michael Smith Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DMI anyone ? Reply-To: Jonathan Mini References: <1519.870530784@critter.dk.tfs.com> <199708030724.QAA13169@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <199708030724.QAA13169@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 04:54:47PM +0930 X-files: The Truth is Out There. Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith stands accused of saying : > Bottom line : we need a means for making 16-bit BIOS calls (16-bit > protected mode interface is part of the spec)... I will have a crash machine and enough disk space to do kernel hacking soon, and a 16-bit interface for BIOS calls (and other similar beasties) is #1 on my TODO list. (I want VESA BIOS support) > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ -- Jonathan Mini (j_mini@efn.org) ... bleakness ... desolation ... plastic forks ... From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:44:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11900 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11892 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03255; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:44:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Tom cc: Andreas Klemm , Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 11:37:46 PDT." Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:44:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3251.870637447@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Key point here. Basically no one can stop developers from making > current incompatible with stable. Basically, if current developers agree > not to break compatibility, the problem goes away. As nice as that sounds, I think such an agreement would be ultimately stifling (remember: current was formed exactly so that such concerns would not be an issue - where did we lose this along the way? :). Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:44:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA11868 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11799 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12871; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:41:41 +0200 (CEST) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), ady@warp.starnets.ro, current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 11:51:21 PDT." <2847.870634281@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 21:41:40 +0200 Message-ID: <12869.870637300@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <2847.870634281@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > [...] >and when I read Satoshi's announcement that he was dropping support >for -current, I felt no dismay at all. I've always regarding this as >inevitable, and having more attention paid to our release branch as a >result can only be a good thing for the majority of our user base. > > Jordan amen. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:46:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12058 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12046 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id VAA23784; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:30:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA03079; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:27:14 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803212714.55734@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:27:14 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Amancio Hasty Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: second post: elf patches for -current References: <19970803122957.51452@klemm.gtn.com> <199708031852.LAA04758@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708031852.LAA04758@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 11:52:03AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 11:52:03AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > I will try to do it this week since I got a couple of ide disks laying around > and it takes less than 15 minutes to install FreeBSD. > > Cheers, > Amancio Ok, fine ;-) -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:46:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12100 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12086 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id VAA23777; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:30:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA03070; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:26:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803212635.43034@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:26:35 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Tom Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) References: <19970803122321.15396@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Tom on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 11:37:46AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 11:37:46AM -0700, Tom wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > ... > > So he wanted only to support -stable in the future. But I think > > this is a step behind. > > Ports have to be buildable on -current and -stable, because : > > a) -current is the next upcoming -stable release > > Really? Probably not. I expect that there will be a 2.2.5 > or something out soon. Yes ... and after that ? I think 3.0 will have to come out as well with SMP support and such. And I don´t believe, that there will be a 2.2.5 or 2.2.whatever with merged SMP support. As it was in the past, -current will become the next major release with many new improved features. And you certainly want to have a working ports collection for that version as well, or ?! > Key point here. Basically no one can stop developers from making > current incompatible with stable. We have the ports collection for such add on software, so lets use it ! > Basically, if current developers agree not to break > compatibility, the problem goes away. yes. and nobody would loose anything, because you can of course install tcl 8.x from the ports collection. -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:56:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12674 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12668 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12921; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:54:47 +0200 (CEST) To: Jonathan Mini cc: Michael Smith , Poul-Henning Kamp , current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: DMI anyone ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:45:48 PDT." <19970803124548.00595@micron.efn.org> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 21:54:47 +0200 Message-ID: <12919.870638087@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <19970803124548.00595@micron.efn.org>, Jonathan Mini writes: >Michael Smith stands accused of saying : >> Bottom line : we need a means for making 16-bit BIOS calls (16-bit >> protected mode interface is part of the spec)... > > I will have a crash machine and enough disk space to do kernel hacking soon, >and a 16-bit interface for BIOS calls (and other similar beasties) is #1 on my >TODO list. (I want VESA BIOS support) Cool! Keep me posted and I'll modify the APM support to use it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 12:56:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12707 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12699; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03330; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:55:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: phk@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, Satoshi Asami Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 20:17:31 +0200." <19970803201731.09375@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:55:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3326.870638153@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think it´s not intended to make -current to a system, that > isn´t useable anymore for active developement work in the ports > area, or am I mistaken ??? You are mistaken. The first and foremost "mission" of -current is to work on new ideas and implement new mechanisms that specifically DO break backwards compatibility (otherwise we could just do the work in -release and not worry about it, right?). That's not to say that it's a goal unto itself to break such compatibility, but if you've got to do it (and this whole TCL thing is just a drop in the bucket compared to what I see for -current's future) then that's what -current is there for. It's a testing ground, not a place for hosting the ports collection. Perhaps we've lost sight of what the ports collection is there for also. I always envisioned it as that "extra 10%", like comfortable seats in your car or airbags in your dashboard. It makes the system much nicer to use and adds polish for the user base. Putting effort into support ports for -current has, however, always struck me as a case of trying to add a wet bar and hot tub to an experimental racing craft. What makes sense for a luxury yacht does NOT make sense for some prototype boat you're building just to test a new engine design. > In the past one of our goals was, to use -current as our playground > for new features, but as long as the system is still useable for the > other people using -current. You are mistaken again. The goal was to use -current as a playground for new features, period. "Usability" is a purely subjective term and not really applicable here, certainly not where ports is concerned. If -current even compiles on a given day then I'm pretty happy and I doubt that anyone here would be rewarded by expecting more from it. I hate to say it, but I have now seriously come to question whether or not you're the sort of person who should be running -current at all. I realize that you want to play with SMP, but I think that maybe you should have held off on that until it was ready for the non-developer types. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 13:10:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13769 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ady.warp.starnets.ro (ady.warp.starnets.ro [193.226.124.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13763 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ady@localhost) by ady.warp.starnets.ro (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01355; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:08:55 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:08:55 +0300 (EEST) From: Penisoara Adrian To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <2847.870634281@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > sites, it's the most popular download target. The folks who run > -current are another breed, and I think it's also safe to say that > they're the most capable of building their own packages and/or > adapting ports to their use (and if they're not so capable, they > probably should not be running -current in the first place). Hmm, seems like I'm gonna blame myself one day for sticking with -current, but I hope it won't be so bad... OK then, how about preserving one of the latest 'stable' -current ports branch (sounds nasty, heh ?) and stick it somewhere along with the official ports brach, or even somewhere more obscure, but at least to be available ? For example, in my case, I'll install 3.0-970718-SNAP and won't follow -current [until it will stabilize again], so I'll badly need these ports... > We have shown an alarming tendency up to now to "oversell" -current as > the place to be and I see this as a very dangerous practice, only to > become all the more dangerous once we start seriously wading in with > the multiple platforms and (I think this is becoming a foregone > conclusion) ELF support. Trying to match -current's rate of change in > the ports collection is nothing more than a recipe for insanity and > premature death among our ports team and I also think it's a waste of > their time and abilities. Up until now we've had it exactly > *backwards* in our policy of supporting -current and dropping support > for the release branch quickly (something which has created a lot of > ill-will in the user base, I might add, as reading USENET will show) > and when I read Satoshi's announcement that he was dropping support > for -current, I felt no dismay at all. I've always regarding this as > inevitable, and having more attention paid to our release branch as a > result can only be a good thing for the majority of our user base. Well, you're right; from what I see these days' -current seems like everybody's playground, so it's understandable that ports support for it will be cut down for a while (I assume sometime later -current will gain back ports support). You're right Jordan, and I cannot blame anyone for this; it's development evolution... Ady (@warp.starnets.ro) From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 13:13:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14044 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14039 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id WAA27740 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:00:24 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA03773; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:47:48 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803214748.48500@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:47:48 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) References: <199708031339.GAA01694@blimp.mimi.com> <2920.870634837@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <2920.870634837@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:00:37PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:00:37PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > To put it another way, if something as minor as a new version of TCL > going in screws up the ports collection this badly then we've already > established that it's a frail mechanism in the face of changes in the > base OS and we should no longer try and bend that mechanism to such an > extent. TCL is just the tip of the iceberg where changes to -current > are concerned, and trying to track multiple architectures (each of > which needing its own package collection and potentially some ports > changes) is only going to add to the misery. Let's stop trying to > chase the moving train here, folks - Satoshi's decision was absolutely > the right thing to do, even if for the "wrong" reasons! ;-) You know Jordan, that usually I totally agree with you, but here I hardly can ;-) You were right and I wouldn´t complain, if we would have to deal with basic changes in the kernel, or in another packages, that break something, but bring further improvements, that cant be achieved using a less radical way. But here we speak of a tool that doesn´t necessarily belong into the basic system and could be put into the ports collection like all the others tcl / tk versions, that aren´t backward compatible to each other. Instead of this you insist in keeping this tools within the basic system and call that something like necessary progress. Jordan, keeping -current compatible to the ports collection doesn´t necessarily mean a step backward for the progress of -current. Put tcl 8.0 into the ports collection and -current is as -current as it was before, but we would get a usable ports collection for current as well. See my mail in "core". I think the lastly drawn decision to integrate tcl 8.0 into -current wasn´t a) well thought b) discussed very well with the other core team members, especially with Satoshi -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 13:17:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14327 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ady.warp.starnets.ro (ady.warp.starnets.ro [193.226.124.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14314 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ady@localhost) by ady.warp.starnets.ro (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01366; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:15:53 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:15:53 +0300 (EEST) From: Penisoara Adrian To: Andreas Klemm cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <19970803201731.09375@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > Ok, I could switch to -STABLE, but would loose SMP support. > > Oh fellows, this isn´t funny :-/ > Yep, that's life... Anyone knows what's Linux-SMP status ? ;) Just joking, please don't start another flame... From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 13:20:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14519 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14510 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id WAA27767; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:00:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id VAA03855; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:53:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970803215335.52172@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:53:35 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Tom Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) References: <19970803201731.09375@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Tom on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:36:03PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:36:03PM -0700, Tom wrote: > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > Ok, I could switch to -STABLE, but would loose SMP support. > > I think it possible to boot a SMP kernel on a 2.2-stable system. Some > kernel structures have changed, so there may be some impairment. I think not ;-) I remember, that around February 97, it causes -current systems to lock up and not mount any filesystems if you did do a make world, but forgot to compile a kernel before rebooting. Figure out ! I think this isn´t true what you are saying ;-) -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 13:37:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15513 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15501 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.6/8.7.3) id WAA03286; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:35:44 +0200 (MEST) From: Sřren Schmidt Message-Id: <199708032035.WAA03286@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <17040.870566767@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 2, 97 05:06:07 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:35:44 +0200 (MEST) Cc: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Jordan K. Hubbard who wrote: > [Trimmed to -current - PLEASE watch those cc lines, folks! We're all > getting unforgivably sloppy here] > > > What features in tcl8.0 are required for a running FreeBSD system? > > Why is it essential that tcl be present in the base system AT ALL? > > What benefits are there in tcl being present here instead of being > > built by the ports/packages system? > > OK, these are all good questions. I will attempt to answer some > of them. > > 1. TCL needs, *at some point* (and note that the current move was > rather premature, but let's not debate that here) to be part of > the base system so that the installation tools can use it. > We do intend on being heavy users of TCL, if not right this minute > then in the future. > > 2. If it were in ports, we'd have a build problem since you wouldn't > be able to build /usr/src/usr.sbin/setup (not existant yet, but > it will be) without first building and installing a port. This > would break the world target. Wrong/bad arguments! Setup belongs in release/ which is not build by default anyways, and only has interest for people building their own releases. You can move release/ off to ports or whatever for all I care, those interested in building a release will also know howto get the tools etc for it (if not, let them die silently :) ) This stuff is NOT needed for normal system use, just during install. And for the libs, build setup statically :) So the reason for bringing in TCL is invalid.. (almost the same applies to perl) > Those are the questions which *must* be answered, and answered well, > before we can start truly pushing things out of /usr/src and > exclusively into the ports collection. Elitist solutions which > require dedicated network access or more than a jellybean 486 (of > which we still have many in our userbase) need not apply. If they can afford to pull down the (by then) HUGE base system, they could also afford to pull down the needed packages, in fact that would need alot less space... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sřren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 13:39:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15647 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15636 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04677; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:39:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708032039.OAA04677@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: Tom cc: Andreas Klemm , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:36:03 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 14:39:04 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA15641 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, > > Ok, I could switch to -STABLE, but would loose SMP support. > > I think it possible to boot a SMP kernel on a 2.2-stable system. Some > kernel structures have changed, so there may be some impairment. Trying to run SMP on anything but 3.0 is a loosing situation. I dont think it is even possible. On the general issue of loosing ports-current, I must say it is a big negative for me. While it is true that I am "capable" of dealing with the things necessary to get some odd collection of code built and installed, the issue is TIME. For every hour I spend getting some utility I need working, its one hour less I spend programming SMP. I have always thought of the ports tree as a mechanism for conserving time. One person does the work to port code to FreeBSD, then encapsolates that work into a port. A HUGE time-savings for all those that follow who don't have to do it all over again. If we loose ports-current there will be a lot more hours spent by 3.0-current developers just getting the tools together they need. On the tcl beta issue, I think we're forgetting that tcl has always been a royal pain as far an the "version thing" is concerned. Every time I turn around I get bit by the wrong tcl header being in place. Tcl is a problem in and of itself that needs work. Having said all this I will live with it I suppose... I don't have the time to work on the ports tree, and thus can't make any demands. The people doing the work have to be the ones with the final word. -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 13:40:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15768 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA15762; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unalmodem11.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA03016; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:34:13 -0400 Message-Id: <33E50792.6E94@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 15:34:58 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Andreas Klemm , phk@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, Satoshi Asami Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) References: <3326.870638153@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > ... > there for. It's a testing ground, not a place for hosting the ports > collection. > It seems to me like Satoshi was right, then: ports ARE for stable users, not for current users. Current users are responsible for what they break, but the dilemma will always be who is gonna take care of re-porting the applications when the time for 3.0-Release comes. > Perhaps we've lost sight of what the ports collection is there for > also. I always envisioned it as that "extra 10%", like comfortable > seats in your car or airbags in your dashboard. It makes the system You must recognize this utilities make the system desirable. The OS can get as sofisticated as you want, but if applications don't work, no one will be interested in running it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't understand what is so mission-critical in Tcl as to decide to break the ports tree. Pedro. > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 14:02:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17308 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from micron.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17295 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mini@localhost) by micron.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27901; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970803140519.52033@micron.efn.org> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:05:19 -0700 From: Jonathan Mini To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Michael Smith , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DMI anyone ? Reply-To: Jonathan Mini References: <19970803124548.00595@micron.efn.org> <12919.870638087@critter.dk.tfs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: <12919.870638087@critter.dk.tfs.com>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 09:54:47PM +0200 X-files: The Truth is Out There. Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Poul-Henning Kamp stands accused of saying : > In message <19970803124548.00595@micron.efn.org>, Jonathan Mini writes: > >Michael Smith stands accused of saying : > >> Bottom line : we need a means for making 16-bit BIOS calls (16-bit > >> protected mode interface is part of the spec)... > > > > I will have a crash machine and enough disk space to do kernel hacking soon, > >and a 16-bit interface for BIOS calls (and other similar beasties) is #1 on my > >TODO list. (I want VESA BIOS support) > > Cool! Keep me posted and I'll modify the APM support to use it. I'll send updates to you and -current. Anybody else want a duplicate copy? ;) > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. > http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. > whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. > Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. -- Jonathan Mini (j_mini@efn.org) ... bleakness ... desolation ... plastic forks ... From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 14:10:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17839 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17834 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA03832; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:09:32 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 21:47:48 +0200." <19970803214748.48500@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 14:09:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3828.870642572@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > But here we speak of a tool that doesn´t necessarily belong > into the basic system and could be put into the ports collection > like all the others tcl / tk versions, that aren´t backward > compatible to each other. I think you're missing my fundamental point. Whether TCL goes or stays is IRRELEVANT in the long run. We could take it out right now and that would solve the short-term crisis, no doubt making you happy again in the bargain, but we'd still be on the wrong road. As the old saying goes, those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it, and we've been here before. We'll be here again, too. I repeat: TCL is just the tip of the iceberg, and -current hasn't even BEGUN to change at the rate which I forsee for the next year. I don't think there's any way that you or I can predict the effects on the ports collection, but with 1000+ ports I think it's safe to say that such effects will not be trivial or minor. Entropy will increase - it's a physical law of software. And that's really the last thing I have to say about this. The issue of TCL is in David's hands now since we've reached the kind of impasse that the Principle Architect was empowered to solve. Whatever his decision is, I'll respect it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 14:12:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA17998 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.algonet.se (tomei.algonet.se [194.213.74.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17990 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708032112.OAA17990@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 25129 invoked from network); 3 Aug 1997 21:17:55 -0000 Received: from du156-0.ppp.algonet.se (HELO pegasys) (195.100.0.156) by tomei.algonet.se with SMTP; 3 Aug 1997 21:17:55 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Johan Granlund" To: Tom Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:59:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(? CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal References: <19970803201731.09375@klemm.gtn.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > > Ok, I could switch to -STABLE, but would loose SMP support. > > I think it possible to boot a SMP kernel on a 2.2-stable system. Some > kernel structures have changed, so there may be some impairment. As of 3 weeks ago i could BOOT a current SMP kernel on a 2.2.2-stable system. I didnt try to use it beqause all i was interested of was if a Intel ALT-Server was supported in smp mode. Cheers /Johan > > > Oh fellows, this isn't funny :-/ > > > > Andreas /// > > > > -- > > Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by > > Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD > > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html > > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html > > > > Tom > > > ___________________________________________________________ Internet: Johang@Algonet.se I don't even speak for myself From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 14:27:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18808 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18803 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02340; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:25:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032125.OAA02340@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:25:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <17040.870566767@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Aug 2, 97 05:06:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1. TCL needs, *at some point* (and note that the current move was > rather premature, but let's not debate that here) to be part of > the base system so that the installation tools can use it. > We do intend on being heavy users of TCL, if not right this minute > then in the future. I thought you were going to skip TCL and go directly to JAVA? ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 14:31:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19051 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA19044 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA02371; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:30:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032130.OAA02371@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:30:23 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Alex" at Aug 3, 97 00:30:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 6.) Also, while tinkering with Debian, I really liked the menu config for > the kernel vs the text file that *bsd* uses. IMO this would be great to > integrate into FreeBSD. Also due to the nature of Linux, I really did like > the ability to easily keep multiple kernel source configurations, along > with multiple kernel sources. Perhaps something with libdialog could be > worked out. Personally, I would prefer to make all configuration runtime with demand-loaded kernel modules. It is my considered opinion that *any* user driven kernel configuration (text file *or* menu based) is antiquated baloney. So you can guess that I'm not really a fan of replacing one type of baloney with another type of baloney, regardless of it's pedigree. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 14:34:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19264 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19254 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00740; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708032133.OAA00740@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Steve Passe cc: Tom , Andreas Klemm , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 14:39:04 MDT." <199708032039.OAA04677@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 14:33:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA19259 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Steve Passe : > On the tcl beta issue, I think we're forgetting that tcl has always been > a royal pain as far an the "version thing" is concerned. Every time I turn > around I get bit by the wrong tcl header being in place. Tcl is a problem > in and of itself that needs work. Yes, tcl has alway been a pain and I suspect that it will remain so in the near forseable future. I think that if we have an approach similar to the base system that is if you introduce a new version of package then it is the responsibility of to the porter to make sure that the rest of the ports are updated or that they work if not then back out the port. This problem exists for both -current and -stable. The problem that I see is that people are becoming *too* comfortable with the existing system: To me this is trivial: --- Every tcl/tk related port is broken in -current, because the tcl 8.0 import seems to break everything. Can´t build _any_ tcl/tk related port in the moment. No tk41, no scotty, couldn´t finish work on an apache port with python support (because python depends on tk41, which doesn´t compile anymore), mrtg, tkman and so on .... --- If the base distribution does not suit your particular needs then change it or port the applications which are of interest. In the tcl8.0 case, it has been out for a while so there are bounds to be updates to your favorite package and if not then fix the port, get an old version of tcl, etc... I bet that if the people that are complaining would have spend half of that time just fixing up their enviroment many of the existing problems would have been solved. We need the ports collection as a reality check against -current. Amancio From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 14:42:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19889 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.tar.com (ns.tar.com [204.95.187.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19879 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppro.tar.com (ppro.tar.com [204.95.187.9]) by ns.tar.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA19564; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:41:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708032141.QAA19564@ns.tar.com> From: "Richard Seaman, Jr." To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Date: Sun, 03 Aug 97 16:41:50 -0500 Reply-To: "Richard Seaman, Jr." Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hope you all don't mind a few comments from someone who is just a lowly "user". On Sun, 03 Aug 1997 12:55:53 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Perhaps we've lost sight of what the ports collection is there for >also. I always envisioned it as that "extra 10%", like comfortable >seats in your car or airbags in your dashboard. It makes the system >much nicer to use and adds polish for the user base. >From my standpoint, this vastly understates the importance of the "ports" collection. Without "ports", I wouldn't run FreeBSD. I wonder if there aren't a lot of users who may view it the same way? This doesn't mean that "ports" have to support both -current and the 2.2 branch. But, I'd feel a lot better about being committed to FreeBSD if I thought the core group placed the importance of the "ports" collection as a lot more than "that extra 10%". >I hate to say it, but I have now seriously come to question whether or >not you're the sort of person who should be running -current at all. >I realize that you want to play with SMP, but I think that maybe you >should have held off on that until it was ready for the non-developer >types. Ok. This wasn't directed at me. But, as a "non-developer" running -current, I feel like it could have been. I chose to switch from the 2.2 branch to -current a while back because I was concerned about certain aspects of the 2.2 branch support. 1) Some outside applications that were integrated into the main tree, eg. bind, were way out of date in 2.2. (Granted, shortly after I switched to current, bind 4.9.6 was merged into 2.2 -- though I think latest "official" 2.2-release is still at an ancient level). At various points, I've had similar issues with sendmail. There is still the per4 vs perl5 issue, though that exists in -current too. 2) I noticed that certain bug fixes were made more readily in -current than in 2.2. For example, you dropped kernel ppp out the the GENERIC kernel. So, when I was running 2.2 I tried switching to user ppp. Immediately I encountered bugs. Where did the bug fixes go? -current, not 2.2, till much later. 3) Sometimes, new hardware releases make it into -current but not into 2.2. Now, on these last two points, I recognise that -current is a place where bug fixes and new hardware should be tested before merging them into 2.2. But, I didn't perceive, rightly or wrongly, that these changes were getting into 2.2 in a timely manner, in some cases. I suspected that was because the developers were running -current and not 2.2. I think that a full blown committment to making "ports" work under the current release branch (currently 2.2) is a good thing. I really don't care what outside packages are incorporated into the base system, and which are in "ports", provided I have a relatively efficient way of incorporating the most recent bug-fixed, security-fixed version of these packages into the OS I'm running. The "ports" collection works pretty well for this. I don't perceive that the "outside packages" that have been incorporated into the base system have been handled nearly as well. Therefore, adding more such packages concerns me. There are two issues that need to be addressed: 1) Getting current (non-beta) versions of these packages into the releases. 2) Getting current version of these packages into the OS between OS releases when the packages are updated and out of sync with the OS release. This is more that just getting them into the most recent source tree. Having to CVSup and then "make world" isn't all that attractive for just upgrading a portion of the OS (eg. some outside package that has just had a security fix). You yourself have stated elsewhere that "make world" is probably not approriate for many users, as you've stated -current is not. As a user I'm concerned that incorporating more "outside packages" into the base OS, instead of into "ports", will lead to less well supported release code. I'd like to be wrong, and welcome having you convince me otherwise. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:02:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21018 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kaori.communique.net (kaori.communique.net [204.27.67.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21006 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kaori.communique.net with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:01:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: Raul Zighelboim To: "'current@freebsd.org'" Subject: Is 3.0 stable enough ? Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:01:57 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello there! I am about to iunstall FreeBSD on a new INN NEWS server. This system will have 512 Megs of RAM. I am debating between usign 2.2.2-RELEASE anf 3.0-SNAP. I would not mind beta testing 3.0 , but I do require some stability ;-). Therefore, is 3.0 stable enough as to test it in a production environment ? thanks. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:04:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21145 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA21136 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02444; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:03:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032203.PAA02444@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:03:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: jbarrm@panix.com, sherwink@ix.netcom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708030751.RAA07506@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Aug 3, 97 05:51:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Some S3 boards uses the same i/o ports as sio3. You shouldn't use both > sio3 and X these boards. Some S3 boards crash at boot time when sio3 > is probed. You shouldn't configure sio3 if you have one of these boards > (even if you don't use X). S3 boards? Is this true? I know there was a problem with Mach32 and Mach64 boards incorrectly listening to I/O's on some ports before being put into a mode where listening was mandatory (it's a bug in the chipset). I didn't think S3 had the same problem... I run nothing but S3 cards, and I haven't seen the problem on any of my machines... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:16:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA21875 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21870 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.63]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-32322U5000L100S10000) with ESMTP id AAA149; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:07:43 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA17892; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970803181549.40721@scsn.net> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:15:49 -0400 From: "Donald J. Maddox" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net References: <19970803201731.09375@klemm.gtn.com> <3326.870638153@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <3326.870638153@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:55:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 12:55:53PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > to what I see for -current's future) then that's what -current is > there for. It's a testing ground, not a place for hosting the ports > collection. The point has been raised that eventually -current will be *release*, and that if -current is not actively supported by the ports system, then there will eventually be 1250+ ports that will need re-porting. I have not seen this point answered. Maybe I missed it. A very clean solution to this mess has been proposed by David Nugent, and seconded by Soren... All of the contentious software in question *could* be maintained in src/release, and not interfere with the base system. I cannot se a down-side to this solution. What (if anything) am I missing here? From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:23:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22196 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22189 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02484; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:21:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032221.PAA02484@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:21:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: ade@demon.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708030822.RAA13370@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Aug 3, 97 05:52:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >That option's already been discussed to death. ;-) > > > > *smile* I'm sure it has.. dontcha just love the cyclic nature of > > project management concepts? :) > > A cycle that can be comfortably avoided if the participants had the > common courtesy to read up on the issues at hand before inserting > their feet in their mouths. > > This entire issue has been _resolved_, publically, at _least_ twice. > > The common resolutions were : > > - maintain the status quo for now. This is basically arguing it into a cmoa, rather than arguing it to death. It's an unsatisfactory soloution, since the patient eventually wakes up. This is, I think, the real cause of the cycles, and not a lack of reading up on the issues. > - work on developing an improved structure concept and management > tools for properly handling the variant components of the system. > > It seems that people find it much easier to puff up their egoes by > _arguing_ about the terrible state of current affairs than actually > _do_ anything about them. I think it's deeper than that. I personally will dedicate huge amounts of effort -- and money, in the form of materials, equipment, etc. -- pursuing a soloution my way. If it's generally agreed that "my way" is not "the right way", then I won't expend the effort; I'll let whoever "won" expend the effort doing it "their way". It could be the real problem that the people "winning" are not following up on the commitment implicit in the "winning" to put out the "their way" code. And hence, it gets argued into a coma, once again. 8-(. > > Until the decision is made about the way forward, however, then > > much of the talk here is moot. > > The decisions have been made. What is notable is the absence of any > initiative on the part of the plaintiffs with regard to anything > beyond their narrow, kneejerk agendas. It seems to me that the simple soloution would be to let whoever was willing to put forth the effort coding "win". The old adage is "steer, push, or get the hell out of the way"; the problem with a volunteer project is that everyone wants to steer, and they are too busy pushing their own stuff to help push yours. Would that they were too busy to "help" steer, as well... 8-(. This is probably a bad discussion for me to try to put in my bid for the position of "the guy who steers"; I'd be willing to push, but the direction I'd steer is toward SCO compatability, since package tools are part of the IBCS2 standard, and that probably would not make anyone very happy, it being a decade out of date and all... Maybe there is someone out there who wants to get their JAVA or TCL or whatever feet wet, and a package installation application is just the grunt-type-work to get a good working knowledge of whatever tool(s) it is that they want to learn about? Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:25:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22356 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22349 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02494; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:23:13 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032223.PAA02494@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:23:13 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <10531.870598294@critter.dk.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Aug 3, 97 10:51:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >You misunderstand Jordan's point. May I humbly suggest that you find > >an Irix weenie that knows their way around the system, and ask them to > >explain the inner workings of 'inst'. [ ... ] > And for an encore, find somebody who knows how to install "nvix.bms.U345621" > on an AIX 3.2.5.1 system, and have them explain how >that< works. Hee hee. For an encore, they should juggle cats while drinking a glass of water and singing "The Star Spangled Banner"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:28:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22561 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebsd.scds.com (scds.ziplink.net [206.15.128.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22556 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jseger@localhost) by freebsd.scds.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA18692 for current@freebsd.org; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:35:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Justin M. Seger" Message-Id: <199708032235.SAA18692@freebsd.scds.com> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: tk, perl, etc... in the src tree Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here's a suggestion... I know it's not ideal for those who are rebuilding their systems from sources, but it would at least help out other users. Install an entry in /var/db/pkg for parts of the base system like perl, tk, or any other software that people may not want on their systems. When it's time to upgrade the software, or just delete it permanently, all people have to do is a pkg_delete Any thoughts? -Justin Seger- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:33:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22767 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22756 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02536; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:32:09 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032232.PAA02536@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: Harlan.Stenn@pfcs.com (Harlan Stenn) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:32:09 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <6842.870624866@mumps.pfcs.com> from "Harlan Stenn" at Aug 3, 97 12:14:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > For whatever it's worth, "make" is a reasonably useful tool for checking > dependencies of packages. I suggest tsort. Both implement topological sorting. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:33:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22821 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22811 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:33:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02550; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:32:53 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032232.PAA02550@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: Harlan.Stenn@pfcs.com (Harlan Stenn) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:32:53 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <6901.870626169@mumps.pfcs.com> from "Harlan Stenn" at Aug 3, 97 12:36:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Now to wait and see how soon before LDAP becomes more generally useful. LDAP wants ndbm. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:43:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23451 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de [141.31.112.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA23424; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (8.8.6/8.8.5) id AAA01485; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:43:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wolfgang Helbig Message-Id: <199708032243.AAA01485@helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <3326.870638153@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 3, 97 12:55:53 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:43:04 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com, phk@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, asami@cs.berkeley.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I think it´s not intended to make -current to a system, that > > isn´t useable anymore for active developement work in the ports > > area, or am I mistaken ??? > > You are mistaken. The first and foremost "mission" of -current is to > work on new ideas and implement new mechanisms that specifically DO > break backwards compatibility (otherwise we could just do the work in > -release and not worry about it, right?). That's not to say that it's > a goal unto itself to break such compatibility, but if you've got to > do it (and this whole TCL thing is just a drop in the bucket compared > to what I see for -current's future) then that's what -current is > there for. It's a testing ground, not a place for hosting the ports > collection. The one and only reason for any OS is to support applications, which in FreeBSD means to a great extent the applications of the ports collection. The success of any OS is determined by the applications ready to run on it (and by the hardware supported by it). When I switched from a Linux distribution to FreeBSD a year ago it was only because of the ease of use TeX and apsfilter. (apsfilter saved my day when I was fighting to get my stuff printed with Linux. Seeing it's author--Andreas Klemm--again in the FreeBSD team convinced me that FreeBSD cannot be too bad :-) ) With this personal story I just want to stress the paramount importance of the ports selection to the success of FreeBSD. And yes, -current is a testing ground--for the ports. If developing the ports collection on -current is discontinued now, I don't see *any* ports running on the future RELENG_3_0_RELEASE. And I don't see any reason to switch to FreeBSD 3.0 from, say RedHat Linux, in a nonserver environment. > Perhaps we've lost sight of what the ports collection is there for > also. I always envisioned it as that "extra 10%", like comfortable > seats in your car or airbags in your dashboard. It makes the system > much nicer to use and adds polish for the user base. Putting effort > into support ports for -current has, however, always struck me as a > case of trying to add a wet bar and hot tub to an experimental racing > craft. What makes sense for a luxury yacht does NOT make sense for > some prototype boat you're building just to test a new engine design. But you have to water your boat. A prototype boat watered the first time and drowning in the very moment makes a tragic picture! > > In the past one of our goals was, to use -current as our playground > > for new features, but as long as the system is still useable for the > > other people using -current. > > You are mistaken again. The goal was to use -current as a playground > for new features, period. "Usability" is a purely subjective term and > not really applicable here, certainly not where ports is concerned. > If -current even compiles on a given day then I'm pretty happy and I > doubt that anyone here would be rewarded by expecting more from it. Well, I am using -current for half a year now, and ``make world'' completed at least 90% of the times I tried. Beside its fun using (the taste of freedom and adventure, you know :-)) I have to use it because I still cannot use the 2.2.2-GENERIC Kernel (remember the CMD640b stuff?) > I hate to say it, but I have now seriously come to question whether or > not you're the sort of person who should be running -current at all. > I realize that you want to play with SMP, but I think that maybe you > should have held off on that until it was ready for the non-developer > types. I hate to say it, but discouraging ports development on -current means the death of FreeBSD in the long run. Wolfgang From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:43:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23538 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23529; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02594; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:41:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032241.PAA02594@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:41:30 -0700 (MST) Cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tom" at Aug 3, 97 11:37:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > b) people like me, who have only one machine, usually > > run the bleeding edge, > > I don't believe this is true. I believe true number of bleeding edge > users is small. Unless your are a developer, there is little benefit. > Other than SMP, what is in current that would tempt people to use it? 95% of the FreeBSD developers doing bug fixes. What percentage of these developers are soing the same for 2.x? > People with only one machine are not normally technically advanced to > run current, because they don't have the resources to develop that > experience. This has to do with the rules used to check things into the source tree and to replicate the source tree, nier of which enforce any buildability. It also has to do with the tools; there is no graceful way one can type "make" and upgrade their system reliably. Specifically, there are issues with installed vs. run components; the libraries, the assemblers, the compiler, the ld.so, and the crt0 are main examples; look at the pain in the ass it was for the new mount system call, which required a new libc which required a new assembler for the updated assembly code for the thread call syntax changes which required ... > Key point here. Basically no one can stop developers from making > current incompatible with stable. Basically, if current developers agree > not to break compatibility, the problem goes away. This is not an answer. Making -current more stable (not more -stable) is a better try at an answer. It's not perfect, either. Tools would fill in the gaps, so at least the transitions across compatability boundries would be as painless as possible. FreeBSD should not be an Intel processor or a Microsoft OS: let others put the "backward" in "backward compatible". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:55:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24098 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24093 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA28752; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:54:53 -0400 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:55:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: "Justin M. Seger" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tk, perl, etc... in the src tree In-Reply-To: <199708032235.SAA18692@freebsd.scds.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Justin M. Seger wrote: > Here's a suggestion... I know it's not ideal for those who are rebuilding > their systems from sources, but it would at least help out other users. > > Install an entry in /var/db/pkg for parts of the base system like perl, tk, or > any other software that people may not want on their systems. When it's time to > upgrade the software, or just delete it permanently, all people have to do is a > pkg_delete > > Any thoughts? I dunno. Most of the ports committers run current, I think. That means they recompile their systems a lot, and that reinstalls tcl a lot. I'm not sure just how good the move to stable is for ports, if it leaves all the ports committers behind. Who knows, maybe there are enough ports committers running stable. I don't think so, but I haven't done a tally, either. I think it's kind of a gordian knot. Jordan wants a neat sysadmin tool, or maybe I should say installer that doubles as a sysadmin tool. He's clearly right there, but a good tool would have a good UI behind it, and we can't get X folded into the core without a very bloody palace coup (which I want NO part of). Jordan then picks a tool that's heavily tied into ports, and has the other feature of being extremely version-unstable. Sounds like a scenario to sell headache pills. Toss in some bloatist versus anti-bloatist rhetoric, and I guess there's no good fix. Certainly what we have is bad, but where to go to? I think maybe I'm beginning to lean towards the way that SYSV used to be sold, in parts. It wasn't a great thing either, tho. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 15:56:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24234 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24229 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA02675; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708032254.PAA02675@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) To: lists@tar.com Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708032141.QAA19564@ns.tar.com> from "Richard Seaman, Jr." at Aug 3, 97 04:41:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1) Some outside applications that were integrated into the main > tree, eg. bind, were way out of date in 2.2. (Granted, shortly after > I switched to current, bind 4.9.6 was merged into 2.2 -- though > I think latest "official" 2.2-release is still at an ancient level). > At various points, I've had similar issues with sendmail. There is still the > per4 vs perl5 issue, though that exists in -current too. On the specific issue of the most recent "bind", I have a problem. Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. So I could live without the latest "bind" being in wide use until that is corrected so that I can once again have my DNS server have as high an availability as many WWW servers... I happen to think DNS is a tad more important. 8-|. In any case, it is a mistake to always grab the most recent version of everything, and then try and jam it into a box with "stable" written on the outside. New versions of things (bind, in this case) are frequently *not* stable, and should not be represented as such. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 16:11:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24972 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24962 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA04496; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:10:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Wolfgang Helbig cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 00:43:04 +0200." <199708032243.AAA01485@helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 16:10:23 -0700 Message-ID: <4492.870649823@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Are we sick of this thread yet? ;-)] I promised to stay out of this, but there was just one misconception that I wanted to clear up here given that both Wolfgang and Richard S. seem to have latched onto it. I never suggested that support for the ports collection would be completely dropped for whatever release that -current eventually becomes, simply that the development of this would be done differently. Rather than trying for a daily "match" between /usr/src and /usr/ports on a -current system, you'd work instead on the model where you only sync'd up the two when it came close to release time for -current, whatever the value for "-current" might be. With over a year or so between "roll-overs" (e.g. -current switches to the next major release # and the old -current becoemes -stable), I don't see how this is such a tremendous hardship - there will be ample time to sort the issues out. And to those who would argue that not having ports for the duration of -current's run is such a terrible thing, I might respectfully suggest that you have your priorities exactly reversed, and not because "users are more important than developers" (as Garrett accused me of believing in a private email) but rather because of the user ratios we have. Most people run the release branches and most people are *PISSED OFF* that it's been our long-standing policy to support -current and not -releng, leaving the users of the last release high and dry with whatever ancient ports snapshot was bundled with their release. Is that somehow better? Why is no one indignant about that? It seems to me that failing to support your release users would be considered almost hallucinogenically weird by anyone in the commercial software industry, and I've certainly taken my share of annoyed emails over the issue. Satoshi has been petititioned more times than I can count to support the 2.2.x folks and he's answered each time that trying to maintain an active ports tree for *two* branches is just too much work. Now given that, who does it make more sense to keep ports "active" for - the -current users or the -stable users? Given the comparative rates of change in each branch, which makes the most *sense* to support? Given the size of the user populations for each, which is the most logical? I'd say -stable for both answers and I have a very hard time beliving why anyone would pick -current (and remember - you only get to pick *one* branch due to workload concerns, something which has been clarified on many many occasions and not worthy of yet another debate at this time). > yes, -current is a testing ground--for the ports. If developing > the ports collection on -current is discontinued now, I don't see > *any* ports running on the future RELENG_3_0_RELEASE. And I don't I'm not so pessimistic as this, given the long release cycles we have. Once -current actually shows signs of becoming a released product, and I don't see that happening anywhere before the end of the year, people can take whatever was active in the RELENG_2_2 branch and retrofit it into -current. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 16:20:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25461 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25447 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04575; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:17:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:17:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Andreas Klemm , Chuck Robey , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <3251.870637447@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Key point here. Basically no one can stop developers from making > > current incompatible with stable. Basically, if current developers agree > > not to break compatibility, the problem goes away. > > As nice as that sounds, I think such an agreement would be ultimately > stifling (remember: current was formed exactly so that such concerns > would not be an issue - where did we lose this along the way? :). Perhaps the limits can be set on what things can be broken? After all port compatibility doesn't require that much... > Jordan > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 16:23:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25579 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25571 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04592; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:20:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:20:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Andreas Klemm cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <19970803212635.43034@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA25572 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > as well with SMP support and such. And I don´t believe, > that there will be a 2.2.5 or 2.2.whatever with merged > SMP support. That is pretty much a given. SMP is changing weekly. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 16:24:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA25675 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25668 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04598; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:21:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:21:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Andreas Klemm cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <19970803215335.52172@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA25669 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > > I think it possible to boot a SMP kernel on a 2.2-stable system. Some > > kernel structures have changed, so there may be some impairment. > > I think not ;-) I remember, that around February 97, it causes > -current systems to lock up and not mount any filesystems if you > did do a make world, but forgot to compile a kernel before rebooting. > > Figure out ! I think this isn´t true what you are saying ;-) Take the mount_* utils from current too. > -- > Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by > Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html > http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 16:32:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26004 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.tar.com (ns.tar.com [204.95.187.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA25999 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppro.tar.com (ppro.tar.com [204.95.187.9]) by ns.tar.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA20309; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:31:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708032331.SAA20309@ns.tar.com> From: "Richard Seaman, Jr." To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sun, 03 Aug 97 18:31:32 -0500 Reply-To: "Richard Seaman, Jr." Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: >In any case, it is a mistake to always grab the most recent >version of everything, and then try and jam it into a box with >"stable" written on the outside. New versions of things (bind, >in this case) are frequently *not* stable, and should not be >represented as such. I don't disagree with this idea. In the case of bind 4.9.6 (or bind 8.1.1) there are security fixes that some users might want, whereas others, like you, might prefer an older version, for reasons you mention. Seems to me that this is an argument for keeping substantial packages out of the OS tree and in the ports tree instead, if possible. Then the user can be more selective in upgrading. Its also a reason for keeping more than one version of some applications in the "ports" tree. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 16:50:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26818 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26798 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id DAA26284; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:50:17 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:50:17 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Wolfgang Helbig , andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <4492.870649823@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Satoshi has been petititioned more times than I can count to support > the 2.2.x folks and he's answered each time that trying to maintain an > active ports tree for *two* branches is just too much work. Now given > that, who does it make more sense to keep ports "active" for - the > -current users or the -stable users? Given the comparative rates of > change in each branch, which makes the most *sense* to support? Given > the size of the user populations for each, which is the most logical? > I'd say -stable for both answers and I have a very hard time beliving > why anyone would pick -current (and remember - you only get to pick > *one* branch due to workload concerns, something which has been > clarified on many many occasions and not worthy of yet another debate > at this time). To summarize, do you say that -current ports will be replaced by -stable port? If yes, you can remove me from all ports I maintain since I run -current only. I also ask to make separate -current ports tree for all ports I maintain and others (unknown) which I change sometimes, even if this new -current tree will not have portsmaster. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:01:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27695 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.san.rr.com (mail-atm.san.rr.com [204.210.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27675 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.san.rr.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA21392; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708032359.QAA21392@mail.san.rr.com> Received: from dt5h1n61.san.rr.com(204.210.31.97) by mail via smap (V1.3) id tmp021328; Sun Aug 3 16:59:02 1997 From: "Studded" To: "lists@tar.com" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG" Date: Sun, 03 Aug 97 16:58:42 -0800 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Moving to a more current BIND Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: >On the specific issue of the most recent "bind", I have a problem. > >Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my >use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. This has always been an error, but BIND 8.1.1 is more vocal about it now. TMK BIND 4.9.6 does not exhibit any differences in relation to this from the BIND 4.9.4 we had in the tree. In any case, what you're doing will still work, and 8.1.1 allows you to send those error messages to /dev/null if you like. >This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that >you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have >equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. Without going into too much detail that's better left for bind-users@vix.com, a dns rotary is certainly not "imperative," and BIND is actually pretty smart about sending its queries to the one of your name servers that is in the best network position to it. >So I could live without the latest "bind" being in wide use until >that is corrected so that I can once again have my DNS server >have as high an availability as many WWW servers... I happen >to think DNS is a tad more important. 8-|. I submit that you are incorrect in a number of particulars.. feel free to write me if you'd like to hash this out some more. >In any case, it is a mistake to always grab the most recent >version of everything, and then try and jam it into a box with >"stable" written on the outside. New versions of things (bind, >in this case) are frequently *not* stable, and should not be >represented as such. I agree with this completely, however in the particular case of BIND, the ISC is making a concerted effort to support the 4.9.x branch in a way similar to our -stable. Their alpha and beta testing are quite good, and they take great care before they certify something for release. All the same, I'm not saying that the newest BIND should be plugged straight into the tree.. a shakeout period of a few weeks is always a good idea. In fact, I recommend the same for new releases of FreeBSD to people that ask me for my help with it. Shipping FreeBSD with BIND 4.9.4 for as long as we did was inexcusable however. Hope this helps, Doug The man who fears nothing, loves nothing. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:01:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA27706 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.anasazi.com (mailhost.anasazi.com [138.113.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27609; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chad.anasazi.com by mailhost.anasazi.com (5.65/3.7b) id AA19587; Sun, 3 Aug 97 17:00:08 -0700 Received: by chad.anasazi.com (5.65/3.7) id AA19952; Sun, 3 Aug 97 17:00:05 -0700 From: chad@anasazi.com (Chad R. Larson) Message-Id: <9708040000.AA19952@chad.anasazi.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: ade@demon.net Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:00:04 -0700 (MST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Ade Lovett" at Aug 2, 97 08:55:03 pm Reply-To: chad@anasazi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We then have a situation where both sides of the "bloat" are happy, > those that want a minimalistic approach can install the required > components and leave out the approved integrated packages, others > that prefer a full-featured system, without having to compile/install > anything else, can install both. But that's essentially what we're arguing. If all those Perl and TCL/TK and other packages are removed from the core system, but made available as packages (not just ports), you'd have the condition you describe above. Install a minimalist system, then add the packages you want. -crl -- Chad R. Larson (CRL22) Brother, can you paradigm? 602-870-3330 chad@anasazi.com chad@anasaz.UUCP chad@dcfinc.com Anasazi, Inc. - 7500 North Dreamy Draw Drive, Suite 120, Phoenix, Az 85020 From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:04:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28043 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (root@nepal-16.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.208]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28013 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (zippy.dyn.ml.org [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01379; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:03:48 -0700 Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:03:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Terry Lambert cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: <199708032130.OAA02371@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > Personally, I would prefer to make all configuration runtime with > demand-loaded kernel modules. > > It is my considered opinion that *any* user driven kernel > configuration (text file *or* menu based) is antiquated > baloney. > > So you can guess that I'm not really a fan of replacing one type > of baloney with another type of baloney, regardless of it's > pedigree. > That brings me to another thought or 5 ;) . What about an rc.modules? Also, some things are lacking, like for instance it appears to me that you don't need to statically compile ccd or ppp devices. However the uid filesystem thing does need to be statically compiled as does ext2, both typos in the lint, and man pages, etc. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:04:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28109 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28102 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id JAA16044; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:34:05 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708040004.JAA16044@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: from Tom at "Aug 3, 97 11:44:17 am" To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:34:05 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tom stands accused of saying: > > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, David Holloway wrote: > > > how different do ports-current and ports-stable have to be? > > (unless 2.x and 3.x are completely non portable > > between each other, in which case.. that is a mistake) > > Exactly. Current developers need to agree to not break compatibility, > and the problem is solved. Some ports (very few), that need access to > various kernel may need to broken, but the number of such should be small. Whacko. While we're at it, let's just rename this list "msdos-current". -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:06:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28265 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28250 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA14425; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA18750; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:07:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:07:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Wolfgang Helbig , andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <4492.870649823@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I'm not so pessimistic as this, given the long release cycles we have. > Once -current actually shows signs of becoming a released product, and > I don't see that happening anywhere before the end of the year, people > can take whatever was active in the RELENG_2_2 branch and retrofit it > into -current. Namely when 3.0-971001-SNAP, etc. are released. Only official support was dropped for -current. When Joe gets his super-system-dependant-port working in -current, he should submit his patches, and everyone will be happy. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:06:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28309 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.anasazi.com (mailhost.anasazi.com [138.113.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28164; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:05:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chad.anasazi.com by mailhost.anasazi.com (5.65/3.7b) id AA19595; Sun, 3 Aug 97 17:05:10 -0700 Received: by chad.anasazi.com (5.65/3.7) id AA19969; Sun, 3 Aug 97 17:05:04 -0700 From: chad@anasazi.com (Chad R. Larson) Message-Id: <9708040005.AA19969@chad.anasazi.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:05:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15386.870546758@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Aug 2, 97 11:32:38 am Reply-To: chad@anasazi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Once you start with TCL, it will *not* stop there - I can only assure > you of that. Perl will follow immediately behind, as will much other > stuff (yes perl fans, there are many out there who consider your > favorite utility language an evil, bloated monster which should not be > bundled with FreeBSD at all). I understand that there are other candidates for migration from the core system to ports/packages. I think that is a =good= thing. As long as the installation process makes it as easy as it now does (thanks, Jordan) to select a very personal feature set, I'd vote that all the packages/ports that duplicate a core system feature should be removed from the core system. -crl -- Chad R. Larson (CRL22) Brother, can you paradigm? 602-870-3330 chad@anasazi.com chad@anasaz.UUCP chad@dcfinc.com Anasazi, Inc. - 7500 North Dreamy Draw Drive, Suite 120, Phoenix, Az 85020 From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:07:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28413 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de [141.31.112.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA28399 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (8.8.6/8.8.5) id CAA01890 for FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:07:29 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wolfgang Helbig Message-Id: <199708040007.CAA01890@helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Subject: FD_SETSIZE in 2.2 and -current To: FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:07:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Back in the good old days when I was playing with -current *and* the ports collection, I've found out that FD_SETSIZE's value differs in 2.2 (256) and -current (1024) . As this caused some confusion during debugging the xview-lib port and gratutious differences between 2.2 and -current should be avoided, I suggest to update the value of FD_SETSIZE to 1024 in 2.2 . This is tested with the xview-lib at least and worked fine. The man page for select(2) mentiones this value and thus needs an update as well (see also PR bin/4177) Wolfgang From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:08:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA28522 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.anasazi.com (mailhost.anasazi.com [138.113.128.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28450; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chad.anasazi.com by mailhost.anasazi.com (5.65/3.7b) id AA19600; Sun, 3 Aug 97 17:06:38 -0700 Received: by chad.anasazi.com (5.65/3.7) id AA19980; Sun, 3 Aug 97 17:06:35 -0700 From: chad@anasazi.com (Chad R. Larson) Message-Id: <9708040006.AA19980@chad.anasazi.com> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued To: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:06:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: ade@demon.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, ports@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <2297.870554943@critter.dk.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Aug 2, 97 10:49:03 pm Reply-To: chad@anasazi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Possibly, a somewhat simplistic attitude, but certainly something > >to consider, no? > >-- > >Ade Lovett, Demon Internet Ltd. > > And it has been considered, and as far as I know fell because what > nobody saw any chance of "minimal system" being definable so that > any significant majority would agree to it. Perhaps starting with the POSIX 1003.? documents, or X/Open "Single UNIX" would do. -crl -- Chad R. Larson (CRL22) Brother, can you paradigm? 602-870-3330 chad@anasazi.com chad@anasaz.UUCP chad@dcfinc.com Anasazi, Inc. - 7500 North Dreamy Draw Drive, Suite 120, Phoenix, Az 85020 From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 17:27:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29325 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29320 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01522; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708040026.RAA01522@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Terry Lambert cc: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans), jbarrm@panix.com, sherwink@ix.netcom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 15:03:09 PDT." <199708032203.PAA02444@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 17:26:55 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, it is true and this is and old problem also I think it surfaces because some PC chisets incorrectly map the io address by truncating the S3 ioaddress. The problem has been there since day one of S3 chipsets. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert : > > Some S3 boards uses the same i/o ports as sio3. You shouldn't use both > > sio3 and X these boards. Some S3 boards crash at boot time when sio3 > > is probed. You shouldn't configure sio3 if you have one of these boards > > (even if you don't use X). > > S3 boards? > > Is this true? > > I know there was a problem with Mach32 and Mach64 boards incorrectly > listening to I/O's on some ports before being put into a mode where > listening was mandatory (it's a bug in the chipset). > > I didn't think S3 had the same problem... I run nothing but S3 cards, > and I haven't seen the problem on any of my machines... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 18:05:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA01621 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01614 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (karl@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA29444; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:04:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.5/8.8.2) id UAA02496; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:04:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970803200414.01928@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:04:14 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: Studded Cc: "lists@tar.com" , Terry Lambert , "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND References: <199708032359.QAA21392@mail.san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.64 In-Reply-To: <199708032359.QAA21392@mail.san.rr.com>; from Studded on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 04:58:42PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 04:58:42PM -0800, Studded wrote: > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: > > >On the specific issue of the most recent "bind", I have a problem. > > > >Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my > >use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. > > This has always been an error, but BIND 8.1.1 is more vocal about > it now. TMK BIND 4.9.6 does not exhibit any differences in relation to > this from the BIND 4.9.4 we had in the tree. In any case, what you're > doing will still work, and 8.1.1 allows you to send those error messages > to /dev/null if you like. > > >This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that > >you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have > >equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. > > Without going into too much detail that's better left for > bind-users@vix.com, a dns rotary is certainly not "imperative," and BIND > is actually pretty smart about sending its queries to the one of your name > servers that is in the best network position to it. A CNAME can *only* point to an "A" record. Using CNAMEs in NS lines is in violation of the BIND rules and will break. Don't do it. If you do it, people using BIND 8.1.1 *CANNOT RESOLVE YOUR DOMAIN*. That includes, among others, us. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, http://www.mcs.net/ Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| NOW Serving 56kbps DIGITAL on our analog lines! Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 18:18:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA02234 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA02229 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04823; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:15:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:15:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Michael Smith cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <199708040004.JAA16044@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Tom stands accused of saying: > > > > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, David Holloway wrote: > > > > > how different do ports-current and ports-stable have to be? > > > (unless 2.x and 3.x are completely non portable > > > between each other, in which case.. that is a mistake) > > > > Exactly. Current developers need to agree to not break compatibility, > > and the problem is solved. Some ports (very few), that need access to > > various kernel may need to broken, but the number of such should be small. > > Whacko. While we're at it, let's just rename this list "msdos-current". What? What exactly are you trying to say here? > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 18:51:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03965 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03957 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA16754; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:21:03 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708040151.LAA16754@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: from Tom at "Aug 3, 97 06:15:43 pm" To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:21:03 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tom stands accused of saying: > > > > > > Exactly. Current developers need to agree to not break compatibility, > > > and the problem is solved. Some ports (very few), that need access to > > > various kernel may need to broken, but the number of such should be small. > > > > Whacko. While we're at it, let's just rename this list "msdos-current". > > What? What exactly are you trying to say here? I'd have thought that was obvious; let me try a longer version that may have a better chance of getting through. Please don't pick holes in my illustration; look at the _fundamental_ issue involved : If you accept the statement above, then you are accepting that there is no future in developing FreeBSD. Suppose I propose some new, useful, possibly performance-enhancing or otherwise beneficial change. This change will only be introduced in -current, where it will receive a healthy shakedown before it becomes part of a release. The proposed change alters a number of features of the system's behaviour, in a fashion widely regarded as beneficial; everyone agrees that it would be a Good Thing. But wait! It creates a compatability problem with the ports collection. All of a sudden, I am faced with the demand that I must independantly test over a thousand ports for compatability, and abandon my change if any fail. Now let us suppose that the feature was incorporated, and somehow the ports adapted to deal with it. Then it is discovered that the feature was misdesigned, and in fact should be done differently; remember, this is a basic fact of software development. And now I have to test all the ports over again. Can you see how stupid this is? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 19:11:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04885 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (root@unique.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA04868 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (davidn@local [127.0.0.1]) by unique.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA11849; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:09:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199708040209.MAA11849@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> To: Michael Smith cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 18:03:49 +0930." <199708030833.SAA13424@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 12:09:10 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From msmith@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au Sun Aug 3 18:33:54 1997 Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by unique.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA24354 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:33:52 +1000 (EST) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA13424; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:03:49 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708030833.SAA13424@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <199708030052.KAA17855@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> from David Nugent at "Aug 3, 97 10:52:41 am" To: davidn@usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 18:03:49 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >Now the obvious "answer" is to somehow integrate ports with things >> >that depend on it in /usr/src >> >> No, wrong answer, imho. This makes things way too complex. > >You misunderstand Jordan's point. May I humbly suggest that you find >an Irix weenie that knows their way around the system, and ask them to >explain the inner workings of 'inst'. Ok, fair enough. I had assumed that this integration would involve make dependancies. I'm not entirely sure how an external tool could handle it, but I've enough exposure to know that any solution here would involve considerably more "splitting" of the system into more components. In any case, I *still* think this is largely irrelevent to the current discussion. In fact, this argument is somewhat of a straw man compared with the core issues involved, regardless of how desirable it is as an aim in itself. Incidently, have you seen the Debian Linux installation and package tools? While I really hate the ui, the concepts involved are very good. It's "core" system is roughly 20mb, which of course excludes many of the things we deliver on a standard FreeBSD system. I'm not saying that this is the way to go, but certainly it may be worth looking at from a comparative basis. BTW, I wasn't too impressed by RedHat's approach to the problem, in spite of that being superior in handling the pre-packaged side of thing compared with our packaging system. Regards, David David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 19:35:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06033 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (root@unique.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06024 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unique.usn.blaze.net.au (davidn@local [127.0.0.1]) by unique.usn.blaze.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12257; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:35:06 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199708040235.MAA12257@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 02 Aug 1997 16:50:25 MST." <16924.870565825@time.cdrom.com> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 12:35:05 +1000 From: David Nugent Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Agreed, emphatically... But there _was_ no debate on this issue, at >> least none in a public forum. Tcl8.x just appeared out of nowhere. > >I think it's an acknowledged point that this could have been handled a >lot better, and it's my hope that we can still come to some agreement >as to how to handle this now, I'm just trying to keep everyone's back >fur reasonably smoothed down in the meantime or we're only going to >spend the next week shouting at one another. Take it from someone with >far too much experience with the latter. Ok. I hope my own whinging isn't being interpreted as "yelling". I'm really just trying to raise the issues involved and actually discuss it "rationally", if such is possible. You mentioned earlier that moving release into its own top-level tree would be a problem, but other than having to get users (the very very small minority of whom need to build their own sysinstall or package a release) to cvsup a "release-all" distribution, I see that movement as a major win with a very large number of users. This is simple cost vs. benefit. IMHO, this is probably bogus anyway - we already handle "secure", "eBones" and other similar distributions in a manner that users can seem to get a handle on without too many problems. Adding a distribution into an existing cvsup file takes 5 seconds, and most of that is waiting for /usr/bin/vi to load. :) If/when sysinstall experiences the metamorphasis that you mentioned into one or more administrative tools, perhaps it is better to leave it there under src. Or maybe not, I'm not so sure that these tools will have to be bound to releases and CVS tags and that, like sysinstall, they track the entire system regardless of branch. Please, think about it. Personally, I don't even care where it is in the repository. What I am concerned about is why and where things get installed. If components are only used by the install and administrative tools, then they should be built when building those tools, not during a "make world", and they should be only visible to the things that need them. Putting them out into the installed system is where things become problematic. In any case, if this is the only problem in such a restructuring, then perhaps some consideration could be made to move libtcl, libdialog, libncurses and whatever else these tools use into the src/release (maybe src/admin, later?) hierarchy, and only build static libraries which are linked locally and not made part of the installed FreeBSD system. It is *this* part that causes all the headaches for end users. Maybe a /etc/make.conf variable can be set to follow the current practice of installing them and shared libraries into the tree for those who wish to do so, although I can't see the ports/packages system relying on this, since this is where the conflict arises. Providing it should be relatively cheap in any case,a nd I'm willing to bet that very few, if any, will actually use it. I'm quite prepared to do all of the work involved if you wish to go ahead with this. I'll also be happy to test it by building a release and so on. Just say the word. Yes, it is *that* much of a headache for myself and others. :-) Like I said, I don't care about bloat. What I'm attempting to look at is how to resolve the problems from the user-end side, and ultimately simplify things so that FreeBSD isn't stuck half in a time warp from 1994 and earlier with large quantities of stale and unsupported software in its default binary distribution as we do at the moment. Regards, David David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 19:37:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06175 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06170 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA17045; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:06:27 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708040236.MAA17045@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <199708040209.MAA11849@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> from David Nugent at "Aug 4, 97 12:09:10 pm" To: davidn@unique.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:06:26 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Nugent stands accused of saying: > > > >You misunderstand Jordan's point. May I humbly suggest that you find > >an Irix weenie that knows their way around the system, and ask them to > >explain the inner workings of 'inst'. > > Ok, fair enough. I had assumed that this integration would involve > make dependancies. I'm not entirely sure how an external tool could > handle it, but I've enough exposure to know that any solution here > would involve considerably more "splitting" of the system into more > components. The splitting of the system allows users and installers a degree of latitude in configuring the system, but it also provides the developers with more latitude in maintaining and coordinating the software set. > In any case, I *still* think this is largely irrelevent to the > current discussion. In fact, this argument is somewhat of a straw man > compared with the core issues involved, regardless of how desirable > it is as an aim in itself. The core issues have actually been completely ignored by most of the respondents. The need for better management tools is one, the other and one which has received even _less_ consideration is the need to make the ports collection stand _independantly_ of the base system. ie. it should make _minimal_ assumptions about what it's running on/with, and satisfy any dependancy requirements internally. This would actually make the maintainers' job _easier_. > Incidently, have you seen the Debian Linux installation and package > tools? While I really hate the ui, the concepts involved are very > good. I Debian is a primitive version of what I _still_ suggest you go and look at. Please? > BTW, I wasn't too impressed > by RedHat's approach to the problem, in spite of that being superior > in handling the pre-packaged side of thing compared with our packaging > system. RedHat's model is IMHO too shallow and inflexible; we need to do better than that. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 19:43:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA06576 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcpsj.pfcs.com (pVNzOh0SXA8p7UuhrrcUcoa0jgm6xLxM@harlan.fred.net [205.252.219.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06564 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mumps.pfcs.com (mumps.pfcs.com [192.52.69.11]) by pcpsj.pfcs.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA01783 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by mumps.pfcs.com with SMTP id AA08990 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:43:03 -0400 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: jkh@time.cdrom.com's message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 16:10:23 PDT." <4492.870649823@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 22:43:01 -0300 Message-Id: <8988.870662581@mumps.pfcs.com> From: Harlan Stenn Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here are a couple possible solutions to the situation with ports. First, go from the current paradigm to one that is more tightly based on an autoconf/metaconfig basis. I figure this is a lousy idea, and is probably unworkable. Second, "enhance" the ports paradigm to support multiple versions of FreeBSD. That way, each port can have FreeBSD-version-specific Makefile and patches. With this scheme, a single copy of the ports tree could be used to build/debug on a variety of versions of FreeBSD. I'm suggesting these ideas bacause it's been my experience that *I* prefer {sup,}porting a tree that looks like: package1/target1 package1/target2 package2/target1 package2/target2 ... as opposed to: target1/package1 target1/package2 ... target2/package1 target2/package2 ... especially when there are more packages than targets. H From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 19:50:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA07006 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA06973 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA05483; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:47:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Michael Smith cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <199708040151.LAA16754@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > > Whacko. While we're at it, let's just rename this list "msdos-current". > > > > What? What exactly are you trying to say here? > > I'd have thought that was obvious; let me try a longer version that may > have a better chance of getting through. Please don't pick holes in > my illustration; look at the _fundamental_ issue involved : > > If you accept the statement above, then you are accepting that there > is no future in developing FreeBSD. > > Suppose I propose some new, useful, possibly performance-enhancing or > otherwise beneficial change. This change will only be introduced in > -current, where it will receive a healthy shakedown before it becomes > part of a release. > > The proposed change alters a number of features of the system's behaviour, > in a fashion widely regarded as beneficial; everyone agrees that it would > be a Good Thing. > > But wait! It creates a compatability problem with the ports > collection. All of a sudden, I am faced with the demand that I must > independantly test over a thousand ports for compatability, and abandon > my change if any fail. > > Now let us suppose that the feature was incorporated, and somehow the > ports adapted to deal with it. Then it is discovered that the feature > was misdesigned, and in fact should be done differently; remember, > this is a basic fact of software development. > > And now I have to test all the ports over again. > > Can you see how stupid this is? No. We are talking about application level stuff here. Unless you are changing an API, how could you break applications? Also, your arguement has nothing to do with the ports-current vs. ports-stable debate. Either way something is going to be broken. Also, developers have never been required to test ports. It is silly to suggest that anyone is requiring you to test ports. Let's look at some real examples: most ports don't build under 2.1.7.1. Why? Mainly due to difference in bsd.port.mk, and "install" (grew some new flags in 2.2). Many of the ports will build on 2.1 with a new "install" and bsd.port.mk. It is easy to predict that changes to bsd.port.mk and "install" ports. > -- > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ > ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ > ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ > ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 20:21:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA08442 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08436 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04935; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708040323.UAA04935@implode.root.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Andreas Klemm , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 14:09:32 PDT." <3828.870642572@time.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 20:23:31 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> But here we speak of a tool that doesn´t necessarily belong >> into the basic system and could be put into the ports collection >> like all the others tcl / tk versions, that aren´t backward >> compatible to each other. > >I think you're missing my fundamental point. Whether TCL goes or >stays is IRRELEVANT in the long run. We could take it out right now >and that would solve the short-term crisis, no doubt making you happy >again in the bargain, but we'd still be on the wrong road. > >As the old saying goes, those who do not learn from history are >condemned to repeat it, and we've been here before. We'll be here >again, too. I repeat: TCL is just the tip of the iceberg, and >-current hasn't even BEGUN to change at the rate which I forsee for >the next year. I don't think there's any way that you or I can >predict the effects on the ports collection, but with 1000+ ports I >think it's safe to say that such effects will not be trivial or minor. >Entropy will increase - it's a physical law of software. > >And that's really the last thing I have to say about this. The issue >of TCL is in David's hands now since we've reached the kind of impasse >that the Principle Architect was empowered to solve. Whatever his >decision is, I'll respect it. Another chance to architect people's principles...I can hardly wait. Seems quite appropriate for a Sunday - I just need to get one of those collection plates (and money envelopes) so I can profit, too. :-) Tcl stays in /usr/src for now, but it needs to be kept up to date; same for perl. If Jordan doesn't have "setup" (written in tcl) ready for 3.0, then tcl will be yanked prior to the 3.0 release (and made into a port). As for the ports tree only supporting the last FreeBSD release, this seems sensible to me. The "ports" have always been a moving target between releases and the problem is only going to get worse when we expand to supporting other processor architectures. In any case, Satoshi is and always has been in charge of the ports tree and whatever he wants to do with it (within reason :-)) is his decision. Does this cover the issue completely? I admit to deleting messages in this thread with unusual fervor (people have FAR too much time on their hands!). There's a fair bit of reasoning behind the above, but since everyone is sick of arguing about this, I'll spare you the analysis. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 20:57:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA10237 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10217; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA26238; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:57:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:57:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708040357.VAA26238@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David Nugent , Michael Smith , asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), andreas@klemm.gtn.com, ports@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <15386.870546758@time.cdrom.com> References: <199708021720.DAA00921@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> <15386.870546758@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What most people here don't understand is that there was very fierce > debate about this behind the scenes for some time before it was done, > and what started as a TCL debate blew up into .. Blew up into 'TCL belongs as much as PERL in the base system, and utilities are being written and will be in the tree in the next couple of months which are being asked for.' revision 1.1 date: 1996/06/26 17:48:13; author: phk; state: Exp; Bmaked tcl 7.5 Hmm, it's August (well over a year later), and there are still *NO* programs that use TCL in the base distribution. The big arguement moved into 'should FreeBSD be more modularized', but the anti-bloatist asceded that as long as programs in the base distribution used PERL/TCL/libdialog/etc..., then they should be part of the base system, otherwise they belong outside. TCL should go, and PERL should go *WHEN* those programs in the base distribution are not considered part of the base distribution or are re-written to not use PERL. TCL has no part in the base distribution, and I've heard 'the programs which will use it will be here 'Real Soon Now' for 14 months now. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 21:04:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA10660 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10615 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA17844; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:33:41 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708040403.NAA17844@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: from Alex at "Aug 3, 97 00:30:42 am" To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:33:40 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex stands accused of saying: > As I was installing FreeBSD 3.0-SNAP970618, I noticed a few things that > should probably be corrected, and a few things I'd like to offer my > opinion on ;). > > 1.) The boot.help file on the boot.flp image incorrectly states when > describing the -cv option that c displays verbose messages and that -v > enteres a kernel configurator. This was fixed on 970705. > 2.) The default motd says that the FAQ and Handbook are in the info > distribution (they're in the doc distrib, I think. Still can't find em). Fixed, thanks. > 4.) This has probably been debated endlessly, however I'd like to offer my > two cents. I honestly think that rpm style packages (meaning no more > split up tarballs, and no huge 70mb bin distrib) are way more convenient > and easier to manage. This is not a view we all share. 8) > more descriptive. On the other hand, I noticed that the x packages > installed quicker (they're in .tgz format not split up tarballs) off my > fat partition than did the huge tarballs 100+k/s faster on average. The speed reported by the installer is the rate of reading on the source file; it has nothing to do with whether the data is chunked or not. > 5.) On the whole bsd vs sysv init scheme. Since I'm sure that there is no > chance of FreeBSD inherriting a sysv style init, I was wonderin if maybe > a comprimise would be in order? Perhaps having the bsd scripts, turn into > sysv style directories so rc.i386 is a directory and contains things like > say S52linuxemu, etc, etc. Comments? There is a compromise already in place; /usr/local/etc/rc.d. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 21:04:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA10677 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10619 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA26268; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:03:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:03:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708040403.WAA26268@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David Nugent , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <17040.870566767@time.cdrom.com> References: <199708022140.HAA14589@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> <17040.870566767@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1. TCL needs, *at some point* (and note that the current move was > rather premature, but let's not debate that here) to be part of > the base system so that the installation tools can use it. > We do intend on being heavy users of TCL, if not right this minute > then in the future. When? Why don't we bring it into the system *AFTER* it's needed, like we've done with everything else? (Like, show me the working system, and then I'll believe that it works. *SHOW ME THE SYSTEM*) > 2. If it were in ports, we'd have a build problem since you wouldn't > be able to build /usr/src/usr.sbin/setup (not existant yet, but > it will be) without first building and installing a port. This > would break the world target. I don't see setup in the tree? > Now the obvious "answer" is to somehow integrate ports with things > that depend on it in /usr/src (I'm assuming that we'd also bite the > bullet with perl and that things like adduser would also have this > problem), but the question is how? Where do the distfiles live? How > does the world target jump from src to ports in building a "complete" > system with all the trimmings? How does this effect how we distribute > ports and on which CD(s) the various files live? Most people only > have one drive, and if you're going to support building srcs off CD > (a definite goal) then what does that entail in the brave new world > of merged ports and src? Let's have the problem actually be something that's *real*, because up till this point it's all been 'hypothetically speaking, if TCL were to be used like we plan on it being.' TCL has been the 'Cairo release of WinNT' of FreeBSD for a long time. Lots of noise and smoke, but little substance. nate From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 21:05:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA10836 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10826 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA26303; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:05:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:05:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708040405.WAA26303@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David Nugent , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <17153.870568174@time.cdrom.com> References: <199708022133.HAA14498@unique.usn.blaze.net.au> <17153.870568174@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yes yes yes, we know all this. But by that same token, and what you > slain, be that particular giant perl or TCL. In reality, they're > simply symptoms of a greater maliase Agreed, but further 'bloating' of the systems isn't the way to solve the problem. "If we continue to annoy them enough, they'll be some angry a solution will simply pop into our laps." Nate From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 21:24:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11880 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA11870 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (karl@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id XAA04910 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:24:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.5/8.8.2) id XAA00550; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:24:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970803232425.24616@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:24:25 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Crashes in -current (as of 3/August/1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.64 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone else getting these? The addresses are all over the place, and don't make much sense. We're seeing them on multiple machines, so I don't think the problem is hardware-related. This just started with the most recent kernel, and ONLY on our shell systems. Our webserver machines are NOT having this happen, and they're running the same code. Likewise for our mail handlers. Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Aug 3 20:40:21 CDT 1997 karl@Codebase.mcs.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/MCS_STANDARD CPU: Pentium (90.00-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 Features=0x1bf real memory = 100663296 (98304K bytes) Physical memory hole(s): avail memory = 95760384 (93516K bytes) eisa0: Probing for devices on the EISA bus Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x11 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x03 on pci0.2.0 ahc0: rev 0x03 int a irq 15 on pci0.5.0 ahc0: aic7870 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc0: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0 sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0: Direct-Access 1001MB (2051000 512 byte sectors) sd0: with 4903 cyls, 4 heads, and an average 104 sectors/track de0: rev 0x12 int a irq 15 on pci0.6.0 de0: SMC 9332DST 21140 [10-100Mb/s] pass 1.2 de0: address 00:00:c0:b9:49:cf de0: enabling 10baseT port de1: rev 0x12 int a irq 15 on pci0.7.0 de1: SMC 9332DST 21140 [10-100Mb/s] pass 1.2 de1: address 00:00:c0:3e:e9:e3 de1: enabling 10baseT port Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 not found at 0x280 ed1 not found at 0x300 sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A sio2: disabled, not probed. sio3: disabled, not probed. lpt0 at 0x3bc-0x3c3 irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface lpt1 not found fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 765 fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 not found at 0x1f0 aha0\M^?\^End at 0x330 aic0 not found at 0x340 npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface ccd0-3: Concatenated disk drivers pid 1329 (pico), uid 31139: exited on signal 3 (core dumped) panic: vm_fault: fault on nofault entry, addr: f4db9000 syncing disks... 6 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 giving up Automatic reboot in 15 seconds - press a key on the console to abort Rebooting... The address in this failure is not consistent at all; it moves regularly. Has someone been playing with the VM code recently? :-) A build from a couple of weeks ago was fine. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, http://www.mcs.net/ Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| NOW Serving 56kbps DIGITAL on our analog lines! Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 21:47:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA12825 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pahtoh.cwu.edu (root@pahtoh.cwu.edu [198.104.65.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12819; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opus.cts.cwu.edu (skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.92.71]) by pahtoh.cwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07345; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (skynyrd@localhost) by opus.cts.cwu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA12297; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:46:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Timmons To: Stefan Esser cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: NCR behavior wrt spun-down disks at boot In-Reply-To: <19970417114955.56763@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Stefan, I have a couple of DEC RZ26L drives on an SC200 controller (data only, not the boot device nor swap.) Presently I think they are jumpered to wait for a start unit command before they spin up (I'll fix that the next time I get into the box.) With -current of July 22, 1997, the boot probe works fine, and when fsck touches them I get a couple of complaints but thereafter everything is ok: ncr1: rev 0x11 int a irq 11 on pci0.12.0 ncr1: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus1 at ncr1 bus 0 sd1 at scbus1 target 1 lun 0 sd1: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1: Direct-Access sd1: 10.0 MB/s (100 ns, offset 8) 1001MB (2050860 512 byte sectors) sd2 at scbus1 target 2 lun 0 sd2: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2: Direct-Access sd2: 10.0 MB/s (100 ns, offset 8) 1001MB (2050860 512 byte sectors) (complaints until the drives come up... work fine thereafter) sd1: error code 1, retries:2 sd1: error code 1, retries:1 sd1: error code 1, FAILURE sd2: error code 1, retries:2 sd2: error code 1, retries:1 sd2: error code 1, FAILURE With -current from today, things don't go as well. I don't have the machine on a serial console, so I will paraphrase what happens. The boot probe does not succede and the system hangs. As in the log from above, we get to: scbus1 at ncr1 bus 0 but then before we see sd1 (partially incomplete hand transcribed): scbus target 1 lun 0: command failed (9ff) @ fa043600 ncr1 Aborting Job... ncr1:1: Error (10:0:) (8-0-0) (0/3) @ script 424 and the reset switch is my only friend :( I think it is an acceptable solution for me to jumper the drives so that they spin up on power, but I thought that this change in behavior was noteworthy enough to call to your attention. Regards, -Chris From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 22:11:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA13823 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA13814; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA21192; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:10:08 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:10:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Chris Timmons cc: Stefan Esser , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NCR behavior wrt spun-down disks at boot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Chris Timmons wrote: > > Hi Stefan, > > I have a couple of DEC RZ26L drives on an SC200 controller (data only, not > the boot device nor swap.) Presently I think they are jumpered to wait > for a start unit command before they spin up (I'll fix that the next time > I get into the box.) > > With -current of July 22, 1997, the boot probe works fine, and when fsck > touches them I get a couple of complaints but thereafter everything is ok: > [large amount deleted] Stefan, that complaint I made earlier? I have my disks jumpered to spin up on command also. Don't get the error message, it just hangs at scsi timeout, and never returns (other than that, I'm still waiting for your clarification of what _file_ to revert to what version, or to revert the entire sys code to what date?) > and the reset switch is my only friend :( > > I think it is an acceptable solution for me to jumper the drives so that > they spin up on power, but I thought that this change in behavior was > noteworthy enough to call to your attention. > > Regards, > > -Chris > > > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 22:19:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA14242 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.san.rr.com (mail-atm.san.rr.com [204.210.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14236 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by mail.san.rr.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA29255; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708040518.WAA29255@mail.san.rr.com> Received: from dt5h1n61.san.rr.com(204.210.31.97) by mail via smap (V1.3) id tmp029228; Sun Aug 3 22:18:17 1997 From: "Studded" To: "Karl Denninger" Cc: "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG" , "lists@tar.com" , "Terry Lambert" Date: Sun, 03 Aug 97 22:17:57 -0800 Reply-To: "Studded" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.92 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is exactly the kind of debate I didn't want to get into, so I'll respond just this one time. On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:04:14 -0500, Karl Denninger wrote: >On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 04:58:42PM -0800, Studded wrote: >> On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> >On the specific issue of the most recent "bind", I have a problem. >> > >> >Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my >> >use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. >> >> This has always been an error, but BIND 8.1.1 is more vocal about >> it now. TMK BIND 4.9.6 does not exhibit any differences in relation to >> this from the BIND 4.9.4 we had in the tree. In any case, what you're >> doing will still work, and 8.1.1 allows you to send those error messages >> to /dev/null if you like. >> >> >This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that >> >you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have >> >equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. >> >> Without going into too much detail that's better left for >> bind-users@vix.com, a dns rotary is certainly not "imperative," and BIND >> is actually pretty smart about sending its queries to the one of your name >> servers that is in the best network position to it. > >A CNAME can *only* point to an "A" record. This is not accurate. A CNAME record can refer to another CNAME record, although this is not related to this question. >Using CNAMEs in NS lines is in violation of the BIND rules and will break. It is a violation of the spec, but it will also work. Just for fun, I added an ns record for a cname. From an 8.1.1 system to another, and from a 4.9.6 system nslookup specifying the cnamed server worked fine. I don't use this feature myself, but I know others that do (with 8.1.1 systems) and it works. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. In the future compatability for this could end. For the details on why this is bad, see the BIND FAQ, /usr/src/contrib/bind/doc/misc/FAQ.2of2 Question 6.6. >Don't do it. If you do it, people using BIND 8.1.1 *CANNOT RESOLVE YOUR >DOMAIN*. That includes, among others, us. You might consider double-checking your setup. It *should* work, but that still doesn't mean it's a good idea. Doug The man who fears nothing, loves nothing. From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 22:27:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA14583 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (mail@labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA14578 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au [127.0.0.1] (davidn) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au with esmtp (Exim 1.61 #1) id 0wvFdr-0000UX-00 (Debian); Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:25:15 +1000 To: Michael Smith cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: installation tools In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 12:06:26 +0930." <199708040236.MAA17045@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 15:25:15 +1000 From: David Nugent Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Ok, fair enough. I had assumed that this integration would involve > > make dependancies. I'm not entirely sure how an external tool could > > handle it, but I've enough exposure to know that any solution here > > would involve considerably more "splitting" of the system into more > > components. > > The splitting of the system allows users and installers a degree of > latitude in configuring the system, but it also provides the developers > with more latitude in maintaining and coordinating the software set. Sure, I dispute none of this. OTOH, the "large" bundles in which FreeBSD is currently delivered tends towards a simpler installation, and a more homogenous system (which is one of FreeBSD's primary benefits, imho). I'm not arguing that things should stay the way they are, only mentioning that further partitioning does not come without /some/ cost, somewhere. The benefits would clearly outweigh them. > > In any case, I *still* think this is largely irrelevent to the > > current discussion. In fact, this argument is somewhat of a straw man > > compared with the core issues involved, regardless of how desirable > > it is as an aim in itself. > > The core issues have actually been completely ignored by most of the > respondents. No, we've just been discussing different things. :-) I have no argument at all that FreeBSD needs a better install toolset. I applaud (loudly!) Jordan's obvious moves towards seeing this happen. > The need for better management tools is one, the other > and one which has received even _less_ consideration is the need to > make the ports collection stand _independantly_ of the base system. This latter is *EXACTLY* the problem, and the entire reason for this discussion. The FreeBSD base system is currently engineered with some degree of interference "built-in" for certain packages. Sure, tcl8.0b2/tk8.0b2 can/should be in ports now or tomorrow, if they aren't already (I haven't been following ports commits for the last few days :-)). The problems are the collisions in the base system. These are real problems, not just inconvenience problems. > ie. it should make _minimal_ assumptions about what it's running on/with, > and satisfy any dependancy requirements internally. This would actually > make the maintainers' job _easier_. Yes. > > Incidently, have you seen the Debian Linux installation and package > > tools? While I really hate the ui, the concepts involved are very > > good. I > > Debian is a primitive version of what I _still_ suggest you go and look > at. Please? Do you have an account somewhere I could use? Preferably with enough access so I can run the thing. :) OTOH, I've seen Sun's effort at this, and while the concept is fine, their implementation is terrible (with /opt/... this and /opt/... that and symlinks all over the place making the filesystem looking like a christmas tree). Regards, David From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 22:29:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA14731 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA14726 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (karl@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA06474; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:29:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.5/8.8.2) id AAA01439; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:29:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970804002947.58958@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:29:47 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: Studded Cc: Karl Denninger , "freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG" , "lists@tar.com" , Terry Lambert Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND References: <199708040518.WAA29255@mail.san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.64 In-Reply-To: <199708040518.WAA29255@mail.san.rr.com>; from Studded on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 10:17:57PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 10:17:57PM -0800, Studded wrote: > This is exactly the kind of debate I didn't want to get into, so > I'll respond just this one time. > > On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:04:14 -0500, Karl Denninger wrote: > > >On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 04:58:42PM -0800, Studded wrote: > >> On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 (MST), Terry Lambert wrote: > >> > >> >On the specific issue of the most recent "bind", I have a problem. > >> > > >> >Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my > >> >use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. > >> > >> This has always been an error, but BIND 8.1.1 is more vocal about > >> it now. TMK BIND 4.9.6 does not exhibit any differences in relation to > >> this from the BIND 4.9.4 we had in the tree. In any case, what you're > >> doing will still work, and 8.1.1 allows you to send those error messages > >> to /dev/null if you like. > >> > >> >This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that > >> >you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have > >> >equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. > >> > >> Without going into too much detail that's better left for > >> bind-users@vix.com, a dns rotary is certainly not "imperative," and BIND > >> is actually pretty smart about sending its queries to the one of your name > >> servers that is in the best network position to it. > > > >A CNAME can *only* point to an "A" record. > > This is not accurate. A CNAME record can refer to another CNAME > record, although this is not related to this question. Actually, the more correct way of saying it is that a CNAME cannot be used in conjunction with other resource record types, EXCEPT to point to an "A" record. > >Using CNAMEs in NS lines is in violation of the BIND rules and will break. > > It is a violation of the spec, but it will also work. No it doesn't. We have had a number of people bitch at our tech desk about non-resolving domains over exactly this point in the last month (since we converted to BIND 8.x). Every time the target has had either a bad authority record (which will screw you just as firmly) or an NS line pointing to a CNAME. In each case where these were found to be the issue, when the authoritative nameservers fixed the misconfiguration the domain instantly became resolvable. What you describe works under very certain conditions. Expecting it to work is a really, really, really bad idea. Like don't. CNAMEs should NEVER be used for this. They are unnecessary to use for this kind of purpose anyway; there are other, perfectly legitimate ways under the RFCs to get round-robin behavior in NS lines. Among other things, you can list multiple NS lines (duh!) or multiple A records for a given hostname. In general, when we're talking about NS lines (which designate authority) the following is true: 1) The NS line must point to a resolvable name. 2) The resolvable name should be an "A" record, and *NOTHING ELSE*. 3) Multiple "A" records *ARE LEGAL*, but using CNAMEs to get the same kind of effect does NOT reliably work. 4) A name within the zone being declared is legal, but then the delegate of the zone in question must also have the glue records defined and those MUST MATCH the declarations in the zone itself. > For the details on why this is bad, see the BIND FAQ, > /usr/src/contrib/bind/doc/misc/FAQ.2of2 Question 6.6. Yep. > >Don't do it. If you do it, people using BIND 8.1.1 *CANNOT RESOLVE YOUR > >DOMAIN*. That includes, among others, us. > > You might consider double-checking your setup. It *should* work, > but that still doesn't mean it's a good idea. Nope. It doesn't. Further, if you mix delegations, and we hit the bad one, and cache the result, until that TTL is reached we won't retry (and we're not alone in this behavior). -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, http://www.mcs.net/ Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| NOW Serving 56kbps DIGITAL on our analog lines! Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 23:27:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16793 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16781 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id IAA13191; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:00:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA23299; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:26:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970804072636.30809@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:26:36 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Raul Zighelboim Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is 3.0 stable enough ? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Raul Zighelboim on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 05:01:57PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 05:01:57PM -0500, Raul Zighelboim wrote: > > I am about to iunstall FreeBSD on a new INN NEWS server. This > system will have 512 Megs of RAM. > > I am debating between usign 2.2.2-RELEASE anf 3.0-SNAP. > > I would not mind beta testing 3.0 , but I do require some stability ;-). > > Therefore, is 3.0 stable enough as to test it in a production > environment ? Theoretically yes, I run -current for nearly a year, but sometimes there are phases, where -current (if you update regulary) can bring you into an inconsistant state. This isn´t wanted in a production environment. Another thing is, that the ports collection seem to focus on -STABLE. Then you have some extra work to spend in installing certain applications, mainly tcl/tk based ones (scotty, ...). If I were you I´d install 2.2.2 now, upgrade the sources to 2.2-STABLE, do a make world and then install inn and other applications from the ports collection. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Sun Aug 3 23:27:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA16817 for current-outgoing; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA16807 for ; Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id IAA13208; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:00:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id HAA23964; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:52:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970804075239.10145@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:52:39 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: dg@root.com Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) References: <3828.870642572@time.cdrom.com> <199708040323.UAA04935@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199708040323.UAA04935@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 08:23:31PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 08:23:31PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > Jordan: > >I think you're missing my fundamental point. Whether TCL goes or > >stays is IRRELEVANT in the long run. We could take it out right now > >and that would solve the short-term crisis, no doubt making you happy > >again in the bargain, but we'd still be on the wrong road. Ok, what I didn´t know was, that you need tcl for your new administration tool. ok. > >As the old saying goes, those who do not learn from history are > >condemned to repeat it, and we've been here before. We'll be here > >again, too. I repeat: TCL is just the tip of the iceberg, and > >-current hasn't even BEGUN to change at the rate which I forsee for > >the next year. Question. What do you forsee ? Or what would be your wishes for the next year ? Without knowing the long term aims it´s difficult to decide what´s right or wrong. First David´s decision really makes me wonder (see below), but it seems, that your tool is such important for him, that he decides to keep tcl, although some (many?) people complain. > >Whatever his decision is, I'll respect it. Ok true. > Another chance to architect people's principles...I can hardly wait. Seems > quite appropriate for a Sunday - I just need to get one of those collection > plates (and money envelopes) so I can profit, too. :-) ;-) > Tcl stays in /usr/src for now, but it needs to be kept up to date; same > for perl. If Jordan doesn't have "setup" (written in tcl) ready for 3.0, > then tcl will be yanked prior to the 3.0 release (and made into a port). Ok. Question ... Is TCL 8.x the TCL release that does the job right for you ? Could we all agree to try to fix the port collection for supporting this TCL version in -current once more ? As Steve Passe wrote, the ports collection is a real ´time saver´ even for -current folks. Most committers run -current. Andrey said, he wants to keep ports-current. Since it´s only tcl/tk ... can somebody tell me, how difficult it would be, to change the tcl/tk ports, so that it lives peacefully together with TCL 8.0. IF it is really necessary for Jordan and _FreeBSD_ itself, to have this tool in the base tree, could we agree on this and take it as necessary, to fix the ports collection ? > In any case, Satoshi is and always has been in charge of the ports > tree and whatever he wants to do with it (within reason :-)) is > his decision. And the user / committers ? ;-) Satoshi then sitting between the chairs ;-) > Does this cover the issue completely? Ok, seems to be, we have to live with it ;-) But then a question to Satoshi ... Could we hack the ports collection, that it supports -current again ? As you know, Im writing articles about FreeBSD and its necessary for me to run -current otherwise I wouldnt have to tell people new stories about FreeBSD. But a -current where tk based applications are currently broken is really a pain. And this seems to be only the beginning of an incompatibility party ;-) It would really be fine to have the ´time saver´ -ports running again for -current. David, don´t get me wrong, I accept your decision, but then my strategy now have to change, to try to convince Satoshi, that the extra work might be worth doing it. Unfortunately I haven´t hacked tcl/tk setup related programs in the past, so I can´t decide, how difficult it will be, to fix ports for -current now. Andreas /// -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 00:20:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA19224 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-2.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA19218 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01319 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:20:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Kernel configuration script Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, since I've seen nobody else make one, or publish one, etc, etc. I spent a few hours, and created a trio of kludgy bash (not sh) scripts to make configuring kernels a bit easier for the average newbie. If anyone would like to give them a try, I'll tar,gz em and email em out. Otherwise I'll post em in my web space when I feel they're fairly useable. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 00:27:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA19466 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-2.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA19460 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01331; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:26:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:26:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: Alex To: Michael Smith cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: <199708040403.NAA17844@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > 4.) This has probably been debated endlessly, however I'd like to offer my > > two cents. I honestly think that rpm style packages (meaning no more > > split up tarballs, and no huge 70mb bin distrib) are way more convenient > > and easier to manage. > > This is not a view we all share. 8) Who would I be if I agreed with everyone *smirk*. > > more descriptive. On the other hand, I noticed that the x packages > > installed quicker (they're in .tgz format not split up tarballs) off my > > fat partition than did the huge tarballs 100+k/s faster on average. > > The speed reported by the installer is the rate of reading on the source > file; it has nothing to do with whether the data is chunked or not. Well, it was off the same local FAT16 partition, so it seems to me that the installer is doing less work. Could just be me. Those 240k chunks still bug me. They remind me of Slackware Linux *shudder*. > > 5.) On the whole bsd vs sysv init scheme. Since I'm sure that there is no > > chance of FreeBSD inherriting a sysv style init, I was wonderin if maybe > > a comprimise would be in order? Perhaps having the bsd scripts, turn into > > sysv style directories so rc.i386 is a directory and contains things like > > say S52linuxemu, etc, etc. Comments? > > There is a compromise already in place; /usr/local/etc/rc.d. Cool, I should check out /usr/local/etc more. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 00:45:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20286 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20276 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA20987; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:14:57 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708040744.RAA20987@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: from Alex at "Aug 4, 97 00:26:48 am" To: garbanzo@hooked.net Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:14:57 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex stands accused of saying: > > > two cents. I honestly think that rpm style packages (meaning no more > > > split up tarballs, and no huge 70mb bin distrib) are way more convenient > > > and easier to manage. > > > > This is not a view we all share. 8) > > Who would I be if I agreed with everyone *smirk*. *chuckle* > > > more descriptive. On the other hand, I noticed that the x packages > > > installed quicker (they're in .tgz format not split up tarballs) off my > > > fat partition than did the huge tarballs 100+k/s faster on average. > > > > The speed reported by the installer is the rate of reading on the source > > file; it has nothing to do with whether the data is chunked or not. > > Well, it was off the same local FAT16 partition, so it seems to me that > the installer is doing less work. Could just be me. Those 240k chunks > still bug me. They remind me of Slackware Linux *shudder*. It could just be that the bindist is compressed more, and your output stream is the limiting factor. If you're using an IDE disk and a moderately fast CPU this is not unrealistic. Speaking as someone that's had to download the bindist over a slow and unreliable link far too many times without the benefit of ftp reget, the small files are a huge bonus. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 00:54:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20658 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-2.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA20653 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01391; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:54:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:54:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Michael Smith cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: <199708040744.RAA20987@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > It could just be that the bindist is compressed more, and your output > stream is the limiting factor. If you're using an IDE disk and a > moderately fast CPU this is not unrealistic. But I'm not. I'm using a 2940UW with a few average drives on a p166. But speed did vary wildly sometimes anyways. > Speaking as someone that's had to download the bindist over a slow and > unreliable link far too many times without the benefit of ftp reget, > the small files are a huge bonus. That's exactly the reason I suggested the smallish packages. It makes it easier to get your system working, so you can then attempt to download only what you need. Who knows someone may have a use for a gcc less system. - alex, who pleads the fifth From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 01:16:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21533 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21527 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA20713; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:15:33 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: dg@root.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 07:52:39 +0200." <19970804075239.10145@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 01:15:32 -0700 Message-ID: <20709.870682532@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ok, what I didn´t know was, that you need tcl for your new > administration tool. ok. Yes, that's why I've resisted the idea of creating a separate collection for release. Now I also agree with those who've said that /usr/src/release has been mismanaged in the past due to having 3-way merges be necessary every time I make some change, but it's not my intention to keep setup as a purely installation-time tool the way sysinstall was. In fact, I rather hope to make the actual "installation" part of it very small, essentially no more than a very minimal nucleus which partitions the disk, gets some bootstrap bits onto it and then _stops_ at that point. When you boot off the hard disk, that's when setup will take over again and let you add additional components, configure interfaces, etc and so forth. Setup would also be the tool used for managing the configuration in general, its functionality extended by dropping TCL scripts into certain locations rather than having to go hack the C code for sysinstall (a real wart, that's been). Anyway, so that's why I'd like to keep it as part of /usr/src - I want bug fixes to propagate with the next make world so if somebody finds a disk-eating bug or something, I can get it fixed quickly on people's systems by simply telling them to cvsup and make the world. FWIW, I was also a strong advocate of moving docs out of /usr/src and this is already starting to have some negative tech support aspects which I didn't really count on - people who want to build the docs now have to go (in an entirely undocumented fashion) build n ports first before they can even build the docs, assuming that they've even figured out that it's an entirely new collection to add to their supfiles. I wouldn't want to see the same thing happen to setup - that kind of confusion is something I and many others run FreeBSD to avoid, the other "mix it yourself" route being rather more of a Linux thing. > Question. What do you forsee ? Or what would be your wishes for > the next year ? Without knowing the long term aims it´s difficult > to decide what´s right or wrong. In -current? I forsee multiple architectures, each with their own toolchain support (and this is going to be *fun* - NOT :-) and I see the make system changing substantially to make it more self-contained. I also see a shift to ELF and possibly a large number of changes in the way that distributions are built and maintained. > Ok. Question ... Is TCL 8.x the TCL release that does the job > right for you ? Could we all agree to try to fix the port collection > for supporting this TCL version in -current once more ? I've already offered my help in this regard. :) > But then a question to Satoshi ... Could we hack the ports > collection, that it supports -current again ? If you mean in regard to TCL, this probably wouldn't be a big issue. If you mean in general, then I can only refer you back to my previous arguments as to why I think this is a recipe for eventual insanity. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 01:18:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21637 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au [129.78.129.109]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21628 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dawes@localhost) by rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.2) id SAA27687; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:17:47 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19970804181747.18415@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:17:47 +1000 From: David Dawes To: Michael Smith Cc: garbanzo@hooked.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks References: <199708040744.RAA20987@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199708040744.RAA20987@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 05:14:57PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 05:14:57PM +0930, Michael Smith wrote: >Alex stands accused of saying: >> > > more descriptive. On the other hand, I noticed that the x packages >> > > installed quicker (they're in .tgz format not split up tarballs) off my >> > > fat partition than did the huge tarballs 100+k/s faster on average. >> > >> > The speed reported by the installer is the rate of reading on the source >> > file; it has nothing to do with whether the data is chunked or not. >> >> Well, it was off the same local FAT16 partition, so it seems to me that >> the installer is doing less work. Could just be me. Those 240k chunks >> still bug me. They remind me of Slackware Linux *shudder*. > >It could just be that the bindist is compressed more, and your output >stream is the limiting factor. If you're using an IDE disk and a >moderately fast CPU this is not unrealistic. I don't think it has anything to do with the tarballs being split. I think the limiting factor is the average size of the files being created during the install. Smaller average size means more files are being created per kb, which is slower. Anyway, that's the correlation I've noticed when installing packages. David From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 01:21:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA21792 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21786 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA21703; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:51:15 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708040821.RAA21703@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: <19970804181747.18415@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> from David Dawes at "Aug 4, 97 06:17:47 pm" To: dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (David Dawes) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:51:15 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, garbanzo@hooked.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Dawes stands accused of saying: > > I don't think it has anything to do with the tarballs being split. > I think the limiting factor is the average size of the files being > created during the install. Smaller average size means more files are > being created per kb, which is slower. Anyway, that's the correlation > I've noticed when installing packages. This is much less the case nowadays when the disk is mounted async for installation. Still I can't actually say I've sat down and measured any of this 8) > David -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 02:23:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23593 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palrel3.hp.com (palrel3.hp.com [156.153.255.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23583 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tmbbobmc.bbn.hp.com (tmbbobmc.bbn.hp.com [15.136.24.184]) by palrel3.hp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA05458 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hpbbse.bbn.hp.com (localhost.bbn.hp.com [127.0.0.1]) by tmbbobmc.bbn.hp.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00469 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:22:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <33E59F66.73707038@hpbbse.bbn.hp.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:22:46 +0200 From: Michael Class Organization: Hewlett-Packard GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Native FreeBSD Communicator-Beta - Problem Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6165ACC10BD423CAEB1E4F06" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6165ACC10BD423CAEB1E4F06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I just tried the native freebsd communicator 4.02b7 version and had a small problem: Communicator only started for user_pref the first time, it hanged next time. Solution: Get rid of the line: user_pref("browser.startup.license_accepted", "228 4.02b7"); in preferences.js. This will result in popping the licence dialog all the time, but at least it then worked for me. So my startupscript looks like this: #!/bin/sh XKEYSYMDB=/usr/local/netscape/XKeysymDB XNLSPATH=/usr/local/netscape/nls/ MOZILLA_HOME=/usr/local/netscape #CLASSPATH=/usr/local/netscape/java/classes/java40.jar LANG=C LC_CTYPE=C export XKEYSYMDB XNLSPATH CLASSPATH LANG LC_CTYPE MOZILLA_HOME #nofpe /usr/local/netscape/netscape $* >/tmp/comm.out 2>&1 & mv ~/.netscape/preferences.js ~/.netscape/preferences.js.bak cat ~/.netscape/preferences.js.bak | grep -v "228 4.02b7" >~/.netscape/preferences.js /usr/local/netscape/netscape $* >/tmp/comm.out 2>&1 & Same expierience for all of you? Other solutions? Michael -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Class E-Mail: michael_class@hp.com Internet/Intranet Solutions Center Phone: +49 7031 14-3707 CSO Europe Fax: +49 7031 14-4196 Hewlett-Packard GmbH, PO Box 1430, 71004 Boeblingen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------6165ACC10BD423CAEB1E4F06 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Michael Class Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Michael Class n: Class;Michael org: Hewlett-Packard GmbH adr: Herrenbergerstr. 130;;;Boeblingen;Baden-Wuerttemberg;71004;Germany email;internet: michael_class@hpbbse.bbn.hp.com title: Technical Consultant tel;work: +49 7031 14-3707 tel;fax: +49 7031 14-4196 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE end: vcard --------------6165ACC10BD423CAEB1E4F06-- From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 02:31:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA23925 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [195.1.171.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA23917 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:31:38 -0700 (PDT) From: sthaug@nethelp.no Received: (qmail 472 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Aug 1997 09:31:29 +0000 (GMT) To: terry@lambert.org Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:54:54 -0700 (MST)" References: <199708032254.PAA02675@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:31:29 +0200 Message-ID: <470.870687089@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my > use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. > > This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that > you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have > equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. I'm afraid I don't think you understand how multiple NS RRs work. > So I could live without the latest "bind" being in wide use until > that is corrected so that I can once again have my DNS server > have as high an availability as many WWW servers... I happen > to think DNS is a tad more important. 8-|. As somebody has pointed out, this is not somehing new in the latest version of BIND. There are good reasons why you shouldn't have an alias at the right hand side of an NS RR, and this is not likely to be "corrected". Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 02:53:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA24612 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@[129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA24607 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 02:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17127; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:18:24 +0200 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id LAA00435; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:52:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id LAA00906; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:52:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970804115219.19743@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:52:19 +0200 From: Philippe Regnauld To: Alex Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kernel configuration script References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: Main Body X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: ; from Alex on Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 12:20:21AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex writes: > Well, since I've seen nobody else make one, or publish one, etc, etc. I > spent a few hours, and created a trio of kludgy bash (not sh) scripts to > make configuring kernels a bit easier for the average newbie. If anyone > would like to give them a try, I'll tar,gz em and email em out. Otherwise > I'll post em in my web space when I feel they're fairly useable. I'll take a look. But let's say right away that such a tool would need three things (Terry is gonna love this :-) : - UI independent code, meaning you could have this as a batch processor, command-line or pseudo-UI interaction (i.e.: dialog). - dependency check to see what's available relative to the system we're runnning -- we don't want to have to customize the script every time, and it should still be able to offer SMP on 3.0, but not on 2.2.x. Device-dependent have to be treated as such (don't want AHC_SCB_PAGING to be selectable when one uses ncr0, or PCI devices on ISA machine :-) - some mechanism for reading and parsing pre-written configuration files -- accepting files like /sys/i386/conf/GENERIC is obvious, but I'm talking at something capable of reading "skeleton" pieces, and filling in the blanks -- for instance: include net-subsystem-defs include disk-subsystem-defs figure out cpu for yourself, etc... -- -- Phil -[ Philippe Regnauld / Systems Administrator / regnauld@prosa.dk ]- -[ Location.: +55.4N +11.3E PGP Key: finger regnauld@hotel.prosa.dk ]- From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 03:36:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA25665 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA25660 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 03:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id OAA02711; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:33:22 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:33:21 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: Michael Class cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Native FreeBSD Communicator-Beta - Problem In-Reply-To: <33E59F66.73707038@hpbbse.bbn.hp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Michael Class wrote: > Solution: > > Get rid of the line: > user_pref("browser.startup.license_accepted", "228 4.02b7"); > in preferences.js. This will result in popping the licence dialog all > the time, but at least it then worked for me. > I got this thing too and describe solution almost similar to yours into newly commited /usr/ports/www/netscape4/pkg/DESCR FYI, if anybody not aware yet, 4.02b7 freebsd port already commited by me as netscape4 -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 05:00:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA27659 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 05:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onizuka.tb.9715.org (eNsDAiHy5xBaTbqHXuawSE8vgxIpY1/G@onizuka.tb.9715.org [194.97.84.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA27650; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 05:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by onizuka.tb.9715.org via sendmail with stdio id for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:59:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: From: torstenb@onizuka.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum) Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: <2847.870634281@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 3, 97 11:51:21 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:59:56 +0200 (CEST) Cc: asami@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > FWIW, I don't think that supporting ports in -current is a long term > strategy for success anyway. Even if TCL had never made it into the > tree, I can easily envision multiple other scenarios which would > result in serious headaches for anyone trying to track a moving target [...] > Our most important > branch of development from the customer POV is not -current, it's the > current release branch. It's this branch which most needs packages > built for it, it's this branch which most people will install off of > CD and, if you look at the download stats on ftp.freebsd.org and other > sites, it's the most popular download target. People, let's do not forget the purpose for -current: It will become the "next" release (*1). When such a release is done, all ports have to be "ported" to the new release. Even if you want to do that (and I'm sure that none of the porters wants that, including Satoshi): You can never test all features of all ports in a short time and if you try to do that, you'll forget something. When a new release comes out Satoshi is more than busy building all packages, but checking if it really works with the upcoming release is impossible. And don't forget that many of the more active porters run -current. > The folks who run > -current are another breed, and I think it's also safe to say that > they're the most capable of building their own packages and/or > adapting ports to their use (and if they're not so capable, they > probably should not be running -current in the first place). Well, most of us who run -current are capable of building their own ports and packages. Not to mention that many of us do ports since we have this nice mechanism . But, building own ports/packages is a matter of time and I since I don't have much time I try to save as much as I can. > Trying to match -current's rate of change in > the ports collection is nothing more than a recipe for insanity and > premature death among our ports team and I also think it's a waste of > their time and abilities. Well, as I said before, you can not change all ports to the "changes between -current and the upcoming release". That is what I call insane. > Up until now we've had it exactly > *backwards* in our policy of supporting -current and dropping support > for the release branch quickly (something which has created a lot of > ill-will in the user base, I might add, as reading USENET will show) > and when I read Satoshi's announcement that he was dropping support > for -current, I felt no dismay at all. I've always regarding this as > inevitable, and having more attention paid to our release branch as a > result can only be a good thing for the majority of our user base. *1: I think one reason for the troubles is that we started with the -stable branch some time ago for "bug fixes" only. Then we started to add new features from -current (login classes and other things come to mind). The problem I see here is that we do not have the resources (mostly manpower) to do that. Don't get me wrong, I think -stable is a good idea, but it consumes lots of resources. We only have two choices IMHO: 1) using the -stable branch only for "bugfix releases" (or call it "patch kit", "service pack" etc) 2) get (hire?) more manpower to maintain the "-stable" branch and the ports tree. I know this is likely to cause a "flame war", but ignoring the problem does not solve it... -tb From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 05:49:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA29477 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 05:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA29471 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 05:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00911; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:49:16 +0400 (MSD) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:49:15 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: FreeBSD-current Subject: ide_pci: strange diagnostic Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Now I got following messages on startup: ide_pci0: rev 0x00 on pci0.7.1 ide_pci: warning, ide0:0 not configured for DMA? ide_pci: warning, ide0:1 not configured for DMA? ide_pci: warning, ide1:0 not configured for DMA? ide_pci: warning, ide1:1 not configured for DMA? In anycase, IDE works as before. What this messages mean, why they are doubled and what actions supposed? -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 06:26:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA00786 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shrimp.dataplex.net (shrimp.dataplex.net [208.2.87.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA00776; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.2.87.4] (user4.dataplex.net [208.2.87.4]) by shrimp.dataplex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA20946; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:26:20 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: rkw@mail.dataplex.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <2847.870634281@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Aug 3, 97 11:51:21 am" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:26:36 -0500 To: torstenb@onizuka.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum) From: Richard Wackerbarth Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued Cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 6:59 AM -0500 8/4/97, Torsten Blum wrote: >Well, most of us who run -current are capable of building their own >ports and packages. >Well, as I said before, you can not change all ports to the "changes >between -current and the upcoming release". That is what I call insane. >I know this is likely to cause a "flame war", but ignoring the problem >does not solve it... I've kept quiet on this until now. However, I think the change IS the correct decision. (1) The Post-Release systems are the ones used by a majority of the users. (2) The -current system is too unstable. The porters are having to make changes because they are tracking a changing source AND because they have a moving target. By making their designated target the "-stable" branch, they have removed one of the sources of incompatability that they need to work around. (3) There is nothing to say that they won't incorporate changes to make something work with "-current". Who knows, by freeing the porters from the RESPONSIBILITY of tracking "-current", they are likely to actually (a) get additional help from those who "have to" run a developmental grade system and (b) waste less time changing the changes. Under those circumstances, I think that you might be surprised how many ports will actually be available to the "-current" community. Further, I think that this change shows a maturing of the FreeBSD system. It is slowly transforming from a toy for OS hackers into a truly usable OS for a wider audience. I think the pressures to ship a new version every few months have limited the opportunity to have well though out, implemented, and tested major features added. "Evolution, not revolution" only goes so far. Eventually you need to take the shackles off and allow significant leaps rather than just shuffling along. Once they freeze the kernel features, we should take the time to make the ports will work before we release it. If that delays the release cycle (it will), then the extra time should be added to the schedule now. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 06:51:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA01500 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01495 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA00746; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:51:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Wolfgang Helbig cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 00:43:04 +0200." <199708032243.AAA01485@helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 06:51:25 -0700 Message-ID: <742.870702685@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The one and only reason for any OS is to support applications, > which in FreeBSD means to a great extent the applications of the > ports collection. I agree, and that's why I've always felt that dropping support for ports in our current release branch was a big mistake. Much of the user base agreed and wondered why -current got all the new toys while they were left to stagnate, told on one hand to avoid current due to instability or lack of testing and then told on the other that they couldn't have all the nifty new ports because that was purely a -current feature. It also still comes as something of a shock to me that many of the people in this discussion who have been vehemently defending the idea of maintaining a -current ports collection also go strangely silent when this point is brought up. I guess that when it comes right down to it, developers will always defend their interests first but I'd hoped we might at least be a little less *obvious* about that. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 06:57:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA01691 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01685; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA00774; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:56:40 -0700 (PDT) To: Richard Wackerbarth cc: torstenb@onizuka.tb.9715.org (Torsten Blum), asami@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 08:26:36 CDT." Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 06:56:40 -0700 Message-ID: <770.870703000@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [rkw makes a number of good points about shifting emphasis from > -current developers to our actual user base, you know, those folks > we occasionally claim we're trying to support :-) ] My god. This is a truly historic occasion. Richard and I are in complete and total agreement on something! Break out the champagne! Send Johnny out to the shed to fetch a roasting pig! This calls for a celebration! :-) :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 07:04:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA02008 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA02003 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id XAA22951; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:34:14 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708041404.XAA22951@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: ide_pci: strange diagnostic In-Reply-To: from "[______ ______]" at "Aug 4, 97 04:49:15 pm" To: ache@nagual.pp.ru (=?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?=) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:34:14 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [______ ______] stands accused of saying: > Now I got following messages on startup: > > ide_pci0: rev 0x00 on pci0.7.1 > ide_pci: warning, ide0:0 not configured for DMA? > ide_pci: warning, ide0:1 not configured for DMA? > ide_pci: warning, ide1:0 not configured for DMA? > ide_pci: warning, ide1:1 not configured for DMA? > > In anycase, IDE works as before. > What this messages mean, why they are doubled and what actions supposed? They're not doubled; you've got one for each IDE device. They just mean that your BIOS isn't enabling DMA support for your IDE channels; they can go away when the DMA code is a little more mature I expect. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 07:33:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA03035 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03027 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA00910; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:32:34 -0700 (PDT) To: "Richard Seaman, Jr." cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 16:41:50 CDT." <199708032141.QAA19564@ns.tar.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 07:32:33 -0700 Message-ID: <906.870705153@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hope you all don't mind a few comments from someone who is just > a lowly "user". I don't make such distinctions - it's the quality of what you have to say that's important. :) > This doesn't mean that "ports" have to support both -current and the > 2.2 branch. But, I'd feel a lot better about being committed to > FreeBSD if I thought the core group placed the importance of the > "ports" collection as a lot more than "that extra 10%". I'm sorry I gave the impression that the ports collection had such an overal level of importance - it's far more important than that. I was simply trying to say that for people on the "bleeding edge", it's less important than technical progress and testing of new features. For those on the current release branch (RELENG_2_2 at the moment), it's of far greater importance and that was merely my point. > 2) I noticed that certain bug fixes were made more readily in -current > than in 2.2. For example, you dropped kernel ppp out the the GENERIC > kernel. So, when I was running 2.2 I tried switching to user ppp. > Immediately I encountered bugs. Where did the bug fixes go? -current, > not 2.2, till much later. This is probably a failure of implementation more than a failure of policy. Things tend to propagate from one branch to another in fits and starts, e.g. somebody decides to go on a merge quest one day and brings a number of tested features in at once. I'd like it to happen a little more regularly and often, but time is not always a plentiful commodity and we have to make due with what we have. If there's some specific feature that you need in 2.2 (and I direct this at everyone), speak up! Chances are that there's no technical problem with integrating it, it's just buried in someone's TODO list or not even there at all. I typically merge by inspecting diffs between the two branches, a long and painful process which I and others tend to want to do only infrequently, so if you want something sooner rather than later it may be a simple matter of asking that it be done as a more specific task. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 07:43:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA03624 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.stack.nl (terra.stack.nl [131.155.140.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03601 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xaa.stack.nl (uucp@localhost) by terra.stack.nl (8.8.7) with UUCP id QAA18214; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:42:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by xaa.stack.nl (8.8.6/8.8.2) id QAA14639; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:42:39 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970804164238.16405@xaa.stack.nl> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:42:38 +0200 From: Mark Huizer To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wolfgang Helbig , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) References: <199708032243.AAA01485@helbig.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> <742.870702685@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <742.870702685@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 06:51:25AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It also still comes as something of a shock to me that many of the > people in this discussion who have been vehemently defending the idea > of maintaining a -current ports collection also go strangely silent > when this point is brought up. I guess that when it comes right down > to it, developers will always defend their interests first but I'd > hoped we might at least be a little less *obvious* about that. :) > > Jordan Well... I would seriously dislike the idea of ports not working on current, since I run that at home. But I like ports for stable too, since I run it on cvsup.nl.freebsd.org. But that's only two releases. What about 2.1.*? Maybe, just maybe... I wouldn't mind the effort of checking the ports being laid in the hands of the porters/maintainers, but that might mean some sort of way to make sure I can work on the relevant architectures. I have current and 2.2 so that should suffice, but the others? I don't know. Mark From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 07:53:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA04070 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04065 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA01027; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:52:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Huizer cc: Wolfgang Helbig , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 16:42:38 +0200." <19970804164238.16405@xaa.stack.nl> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 07:52:09 -0700 Message-ID: <1023.870706329@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well... I would seriously dislike the idea of ports not working on current, > since I run that at home. But I like ports for stable too, since I run it > on cvsup.nl.freebsd.org. But that's only two releases. What about 2.1.*? Well, I see FreeBSD has having 3 branches at any given time: current: Bleeding edge. stable: The release branch, AKA "stable" after a short transition. legacy: The previous release branch in phase-out mode. We've confused things more than a little bit in the past by calling both the legacy branch and the release branch "stable", but I think we've learned from that experience and can start using less confusing nomenclature in the future. In any case, I don't see maintaining ports for anything but -stable as useful or necessary, the -current people basically using the -stable ports tree for as long as it works (and the current fracas with TCL aside, it largely *does* work even now if you go by straight percentages). Once we started getting reasonably close to rotating stable to legacy and current to stable, that's when we'd transition the ports/packages collection to the new stable branch and fix up whatever broke before finally doing a combined release. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 08:02:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04595 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.stack.nl (terra.stack.nl [131.155.140.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04585 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xaa.stack.nl (uucp@localhost) by terra.stack.nl (8.8.7) with UUCP id RAA18715; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:00:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from xaa@localhost) by xaa.stack.nl (8.8.6/8.8.2) id RAA16896; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:00:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970804170019.55419@xaa.stack.nl> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 17:00:19 +0200 From: Mark Huizer To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wolfgang Helbig , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) Reply-To: Mark Huizer References: <19970804164238.16405@xaa.stack.nl> <1023.870706329@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <1023.870706329@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" on Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 07:52:09AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Once we started getting reasonably close to rotating stable to legacy > and current to stable, that's when we'd transition the ports/packages > collection to the new stable branch and fix up whatever broke before > finally doing a combined release. > Well, basically, I test them on both stable and current at the moment, so that should help. Perhaps we could have some sort of flag that the portkeepers could add, that says whether or not it will work under current, so that ppl know what to expect. sort of "BROKEN_FOR_CURRENT". I as a porter don't like BROKEN in any of my Makefiles, so that would be reason enough for me to fix it asap :-) Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Mark Huizer - xaa@stack.nl - rcbamh@urc.tue.nl - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - If all the students who slept through lectures were laid end to end, - - they'd be a lot more comfortable. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 09:38:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09378 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09370 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA04158; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:36:37 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708041636.JAA04158@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 09:36:37 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Alex" at Aug 3, 97 05:03:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That brings me to another thought or 5 ;) . What about an rc.modules? Why not a /kern/modules instead, and use opendir() to iterate them, and demand load them when necessary? I don't see a reason for rc.* based loading if demand-loading works... > Also, some things are lacking, like for instance it appears to me that you > don't need to statically compile ccd or ppp devices. Yeah, devfs is lacking, most because people insist there is a persistance "problem" that can't be solved by putting the default permissions into the device code's static data for whatever device, from which the devfs data is derived. > However the uid > filesystem thing does need to be statically compiled as does ext2, both > typos in the lint, and man pages, etc. No. Those are typos in the uid and ext2 FS code, not typos in LINT or the man pages. Don't confuse bugs with policy. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 10:21:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA13428 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13412 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:21:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA04267; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:18:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708041718.KAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:18:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4492.870649823@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Aug 3, 97 04:10:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Are we sick of this thread yet? ;-)] Just comments on this *one* paragraph... > Most people run the release branches and most people are > *PISSED OFF* that it's been our long-standing policy to support > -current and not -releng, leaving the users of the last release high > and dry with whatever ancient ports snapshot was bundled with their > release. Is that somehow better? Why is no one indignant about that? > It seems to me that failing to support your release users would be > considered almost hallucinogenically weird by anyone in the commercial > software industry, and I've certainly taken my share of annoyed emails > over the issue. Actually, the main failing of Apple, historically, has been that any time there was a tradeoff between ease of use for the user and ease of use for the developer, it was the policy that the user won. This won Apple a lot of die-hard users, who are still around. It won them few developers. Now Apple is, shall we say, "barely around". I think NeXTStep will fix a lot of this, since it redresses many of the shortcomings face by developers (it still has the best ODE going, a true joy to use to make platform-specific and non-portable graphical applications). Anyway, to get back to your question: the lack of indignation is because most people have become innured. Try to run the latest version of Excel on Windows 3.1 (one example). Microsoft has traditionally orphaned legacy systems. That's how it sells new systems, and that's how it shoved DR-DOS's head under the toilet water, and how it's preparing to try to do the same to NetScape by integrating Microsoft browser technology into the OS shell. Not orphaning legacy users is the mistake Novell makes every time it does not cull their API. If a user needs legacy API hooks to talk to your old servers... that user is not buying new servers. And servers are where Novell's bread is buttered. I think FreeBSD has, so far, tread a happy middle of the road. That is, it has limited its mediocraty, but it has at the same time limited its greatness (which is where I get most worked up, when I get most worked up). It has been surprisingly successfuly (surprising to me, anyway) in spite of this. Maybe because its greatness, however restricted by the bonds of artificial importance, is not so limited as the "managed technological advance" in the Microsoft market. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 10:29:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14047 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14034 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA04299; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:26:46 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708041726.KAA04299@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND To: Studded@dal.net Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:26:46 -0700 (MST) Cc: lists@tar.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708032359.QAA21392@mail.san.rr.com> from "Studded" at Aug 3, 97 04:58:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my > >use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. > > This has always been an error, but BIND 8.1.1 is more vocal about > it now. TMK BIND 4.9.6 does not exhibit any differences in relation to > this from the BIND 4.9.4 we had in the tree. In any case, what you're > doing will still work, and 8.1.1 allows you to send those error messages > to /dev/null if you like. Not on other peoples machines, I can't. > >This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that > >you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have > >equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. > > Without going into too much detail that's better left for > bind-users@vix.com, a dns rotary is certainly not "imperative," and BIND > is actually pretty smart about sending its queries to the one of your name > servers that is in the best network position to it. My particular use is to allow moving my secondary all over creation as the whim takes me. That is because my secondary is a box which can be booted into multiple OS's, each of which has a different IP address. The reasoning behind this is to ensure that my MX records don't point to a machine that has a mail demon, but none of the original accounts. I can live with my secondary MX queueing up mail. I can *not* live with my mail being refused for the lack of a correctly named account at the primary MX's IP address. > >So I could live without the latest "bind" being in wide use until > >that is corrected so that I can once again have my DNS server > >have as high an availability as many WWW servers... I happen > >to think DNS is a tad more important. 8-|. > > I submit that you are incorrect in a number of particulars.. feel > free to write me if you'd like to hash this out some more. See above. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 10:30:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14190 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14174 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA04308; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:28:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708041728.KAA04308@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND To: karl@Mcs.Net (Karl Denninger) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:28:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: Studded@dal.net, lists@tar.com, terry@lambert.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970803200414.01928@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> from "Karl Denninger" at Aug 3, 97 08:04:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A CNAME can *only* point to an "A" record. > > Using CNAMEs in NS lines is in violation of the BIND rules and will break. > > Don't do it. If you do it, people using BIND 8.1.1 *CANNOT RESOLVE YOUR > DOMAIN*. That includes, among others, us. Funny. The above mail was sent to the list and CC'ed to me. Apparently, your "us" found my machine without problems. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 10:36:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA14616 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14611 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA04347; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:34:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708041734.KAA04347@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:34:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tom" at Aug 3, 97 07:47:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > No. We are talking about application level stuff here. Unless you are > changing an API, how could you break applications? The mount API has changed. So long as there are applications (lsof is a good example; traceroute is another; host is another; dig is another; identd is another...) which grovel kernel memory, then the kernel structures *are* part of the API. This annoys the piss out of me, but that's the way it is, and as long as that's the way it is, it's a problem for ports. > Why? Mainly due to difference in bsd.port.mk, and "install" (grew some > new flags in 2.2). Many of the ports will build on 2.1 with a new > "install" and bsd.port.mk. It is easy to predict that changes to > bsd.port.mk and "install" ports. I disagree. The .mk changes forced me to go to a new ld forced me to go to a new crt0.o/ld.so, forced me to go to a new as forced me to go to a new gcc. A royal pain in the ass, and entirely unpredictable. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 10:45:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15204 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA15197 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA04371; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:43:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708041743.KAA04371@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND To: Studded@dal.net Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:43:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: karl@Mcs.Net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, lists@tar.com, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: <199708040518.WAA29255@mail.san.rr.com> from "Studded" at Aug 3, 97 10:17:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Using CNAMEs in NS lines is in violation of the BIND rules and will break. > > It is a violation of the spec, but it will also work. Just for > fun, I added an ns record for a cname. From an 8.1.1 system to another, > and from a 4.9.6 system nslookup specifying the cnamed server worked fine. > I don't use this feature myself, but I know others that do (with 8.1.1 > systems) and it works. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. In the future > compatability for this could end. > > For the details on why this is bad, see the BIND FAQ, > /usr/src/contrib/bind/doc/misc/FAQ.2of2 Question 6.6. In the future, I will have more hardware and the problem will silently disappear. I was only complaining that bind complains to other people to get them to brow-beat me, yet then proceeds to work. Better that it complain to me, and let me ignore it. Yes, at my peril. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 10:51:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA15532 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA15517 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA04390; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:47:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708041747.KAA04390@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:47:57 -0700 (MST) Cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com, dg@root.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20709.870682532@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Aug 4, 97 01:15:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In -current? I forsee multiple architectures, each with their own > toolchain support (and this is going to be *fun* - NOT :-) and I see > the make system changing substantially to make it more self-contained. The toolchain stuff in GCC is broken. Sure, it hides everything under the huge, lumpy covers, but the bed you are expected to lie in looks like hell. The code generation needs to be decoupled at the quad level instead of where it is (bin*bletch*utils et. al.). I first complained about this in 1993, and submitted patches, which were rejected. Just like "brandelf" and "OLF". 8-(. Has anyone ever cross-compile for an NCR Tower XP on an NCR Tower 32? Now *THERE* was a reasonable cross-environment... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 12:08:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA20803 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inga.augusta.de (root@inga.augusta.de [193.175.23.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20796 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rabbit by inga.augusta.de with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wvSUY-004cu1C; Mon, 4 Aug 97 21:08 MET DST Received: by rabbit.augusta.de via sendmail with stdio id for current@freebsd.org; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:07:14 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built DST-May-22) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.8 Reply-To: shanee@augusta.de Organization: Privat Site running FreeBSD-current X-Mail-Attention: It is forbidden by law to send unwanted mail to this account! From: shanee@augusta.de (Andreas Kohout) Subject: Re: Can't mount CD under -current. X-Original-Newsgroups: muc.lists.freebsd.current To: current@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, since ctm-src-2985 I have some problems ... with a new kernel, my FreeBSD-Box is really funny: after reboot Aug 2 17:32:04 rabbit /kernel: pid 414 (expr), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:05 rabbit /kernel: pid 435 (sh), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:05 rabbit /kernel: pid 485 (test), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:06 rabbit /kernel: pid 521 (test), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:06 rabbit /kernel: pid 537 (test), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:06 rabbit /kernel: pid 568 (sh), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:08 rabbit /kernel: pid 662 (expr), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:08 rabbit /kernel: pid 683 (expr), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:08 rabbit /kernel: pid 721 (tr), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:08 rabbit /kernel: pid 744 ([), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:08 rabbit /kernel: pid 748 (test), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:08 rabbit /kernel: pid 756 (test), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:08 rabbit /kernel: pid 763 (test), uid 0: exited on signal 8 Aug 2 17:32:10 rabbit /kernel: pid 800 (sh), uid 0: exited on signal 8 and than Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address = 0x13a fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf0131afc stack pointer = 0x10:0xf4e44e18 frame pointer = 0x10:0xf4e44e18 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 748 (wish8.0) interrupt mask = trap number = 12 panic: page fault syncing disks... 25 25 18 6 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 and while booting there is a warning about my IDE are not configured for DMA!? with the old kernel all is fine, exept of mfs root@rabbit# mount -t mfs /dev/wd0b /tmp Aug 4 03:17:52 rabbit mount_mfs: /tmp: Invalid argument What will it say to me? Because I miss my handbook and FAQ, and I can´t find anything in the man pages, maybe you can help me ... Thanx ... -- Greetings, Andy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- running FreeBSD-current () /\ From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 12:13:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA21023 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax4-150.ppp.wenet.net [206.169.224.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA21007 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00347; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:06:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Terry Lambert cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: <199708041636.JAA04158@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > That brings me to another thought or 5 ;) . What about an rc.modules? > > Why not a /kern/modules instead, and use opendir() to iterate them, > and demand load them when necessary? I don't see a reason for rc.* > based loading if demand-loading works... That sounds like a great idea. Whatever works. > > However the uid > > filesystem thing does need to be statically compiled as does ext2, both > > typos in the lint, and man pages, etc. > > No. Those are typos in the uid and ext2 FS code, not typos in LINT > or the man pages. Don't confuse bugs with policy. Well bugs, typos or whatever, they still prevent them from being made into lkms. However I still don't see an ext2fs lkm or mount_ext2fs program (unless it's hiding from me), and mount -t ext2fs did need the kernel directive so afaic that's not really a typo. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 12:35:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA22285 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22260; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11048; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:35:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708041935.NAA11048@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: current@freebsd.org cc: Michael Smith Subject: kernel compile broken Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 13:35:07 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, ------------------------------ cut ----------------------------- loading kernel bios.o: Undefined symbol `_memcmp' referenced from text segment *** Error code 1 Stop. ------------------------------ cut ----------------------------- changing memcmp() to bcmp() in i386/i386/bios.c makes it compile, not sure if this is correct fix. -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 13:20:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24726 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24721 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA04714; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:19:03 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708042019.NAA04714@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:19:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Alex" at Aug 4, 97 12:06:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well bugs, typos or whatever, they still prevent them from being made into > lkms. However I still don't see an ext2fs lkm or mount_ext2fs program > (unless it's hiding from me), and mount -t ext2fs did need the kernel > directive so afaic that's not really a typo. The list is there whether the FS is compiled in or not (see mount.h), so having the enumerated value on the other side of the mount call isn't really an issue; there's a number of other places where it's screwed up, though. There's also a mount_ext2fs in /usr/src/sbin/mount_ext2fs. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 13:27:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA24963 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24957; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA29720; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:27:19 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:27:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708042027.OAA29720@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Steve Passe Cc: current@freebsd.org, Michael Smith Subject: Re: kernel compile broken In-Reply-To: <199708041935.NAA11048@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> References: <199708041935.NAA11048@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ------------------------------ cut ----------------------------- > loading kernel > bios.o: Undefined symbol `_memcmp' referenced from text segment > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > ------------------------------ cut ----------------------------- > > changing memcmp() to bcmp() in i386/i386/bios.c makes it compile, > not sure if this is correct fix. Did you compile bios.s w/out optimization, or any other portion of the kernel for that matter? Nate From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 13:39:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25732 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25713; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA11320; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708042038.OAA11320@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: Nate Williams cc: current@freebsd.org, Michael Smith Subject: Re: kernel compile broken In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 14:27:19 MDT." <199708042027.OAA29720@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 14:38:45 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate, > > changing memcmp() to bcmp() in i386/i386/bios.c makes it compile, > > not sure if this is correct fix. > > Did you compile bios.s w/out optimization, or any other portion of the > kernel for that matter? pretty much stock compile, /etc/make.conf: CFLAGS= -O2 -m486 -pipe COPTFLAGS= -pipe -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 13:41:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25934 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25921; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id GAA20704; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:39:08 +1000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:39:08 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199708042039.GAA20704@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: kernel compile broken Cc: msmith@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >loading kernel >bios.o: Undefined symbol `_memcmp' referenced from text segment >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. >------------------------------ cut ----------------------------- > >changing memcmp() to bcmp() in i386/i386/bios.c makes it compile, >not sure if this is correct fix. memcmp isn't supported in the kernel. Using bcmp instead is correct (I forget if the ar order is compatible). This problem is sometimes maked by gcc inlining memcmp() without warning about the missing prototype for it. memcpy is supported in the kernel, although bcopy is normal, so that gcc can generate efficient inline code for small copies. The inline code for bcmp isn't particularly efficient (gcc doesn't do anything special for small counts...) so little would be gained by using it. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 13:44:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26171 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26154 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.sdsp.mc.xerox.com ([13.231.132.18]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <54908(2)>; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:44:08 PDT Received: from gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com [13.231.133.90]) by www.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA17335; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com (4.1/client-1.3) id AA13241; Mon, 4 Aug 97 16:40:54 EDT Message-Id: <9708042040.AA13241@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0delta 6/3/97 To: John Polstra Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: second post: elf patches for -current In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 01 Aug 1997 18:46:10 PDT." <199708020146.SAA09667@austin.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:40:53 PDT From: "Marty Leisner" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Can I have some ELF binaries to try out? Programs which should run under bsd 3.0 and be in elf format (along with the necessary shared libraries?) -- marty leisner@sdsp.mc.xerox.com The Feynman problem solving Algorithm 1) Write down the problem 2) Think real hard 3) Write down the answer Murray Gel-mann in the NY Times From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 14:03:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27472 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27465 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA02226; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:00:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 10:18:55 PDT." <199708041718.KAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 14:00:19 -0700 Message-ID: <2222.870728419@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Actually, the main failing of Apple, historically, has been that > any time there was a tradeoff between ease of use for the user and > ease of use for the developer, it was the policy that the user won. > > This won Apple a lot of die-hard users, who are still around. > > It won them few developers. This is an overly simplistic summary of the situation, however. We *do* support the developers, and the very existance of -current goes quite a bit beyond anything Apple ever did to let developers in on their plans for future OS technologies. This whole ports thing has been a tempest in a teapot, and while I don't argue that the ports collection is useful to developers and users alike, I don't think that it's tantamount to saying that our support for developers has suddenly dried up and disappeared because of this one problem in supporting ports for -current. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 14:09:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27915 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (root@nepal-11.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27909 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (zippy.dyn.ml.org [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04967 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:09:37 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:09:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernel compile broken In-Reply-To: <199708042039.GAA20704@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Bruce Evans wrote: > memcmp isn't supported in the kernel. Using bcmp instead is correct > (I forget if the ar order is compatible). This problem is sometimes > maked by gcc inlining memcmp() without warning about the missing > prototype for it. > > memcpy is supported in the kernel, although bcopy is normal, so that > gcc can generate efficient inline code for small copies. The inline > code for bcmp isn't particularly efficient (gcc doesn't do anything > special for small counts...) so little would be gained by using it. It is or it isn't?? - alex From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 14:13:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28184 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28179 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA04813; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:08:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708042108.OAA04813@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:08:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <2222.870728419@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Aug 4, 97 02:00:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is an overly simplistic summary of the situation, however. > > We *do* support the developers, and the very existance of -current > goes quite a bit beyond anything Apple ever did to let developers in > on their plans for future OS technologies. This whole ports thing has > been a tempest in a teapot, and while I don't argue that the ports > collection is useful to developers and users alike, I don't think that > it's tantamount to saying that our support for developers has suddenly > dried up and disappeared because of this one problem in supporting > ports for -current. It was not intended to be representative of the FreeBSD situation; it was simply an observation of "what are the consequences of...", which I thought was abundantly clear from the paragraph where I pegged FreeBSD as being more "middle of the road" than Apple. Speaking of "middle of the road", anyone seen "The Karate Kid" lately? "Karate do yes; okay. Karate do no; okay. Karate do maybe... splut!". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 15:08:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA00910 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (mail@labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA00901 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au [127.0.0.1] (davidn) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au with esmtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0wvVHi-0007a1-00 (Debian); Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:07:26 +1000 To: Terry Lambert cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 13:19:03 MST." <199708042019.NAA04714@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 08:07:26 +1000 From: David Nugent Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Well bugs, typos or whatever, they still prevent them from being made into > > lkms. However I still don't see an ext2fs lkm or mount_ext2fs program > > (unless it's hiding from me), and mount -t ext2fs did need the kernel > > directive so afaic that's not really a typo. > > The list is there whether the FS is compiled in or not (see mount.h), > so having the enumerated value on the other side of the mount call > isn't really an issue; there's a number of other places where it's > screwed up, though. > > There's also a mount_ext2fs in /usr/src/sbin/mount_ext2fs. 8-). Just incidently, it seems that support for ext2fs in -current is broken right now, having had occasion to use it over the last few days. I haven't had time yet to diagnose it in detail, but mention it now in case someone has some ideas already and save some time. (Bruce? Are you listening?) Sympoms are "block already freed" errors when writing to the ext2fs filesystem, and eventually (sometimes very quickly) a complete system freeze - no panic messages at all, no ddb in spite of it being in the running kernel. Mounting it read-only seems safe and stable enough, so I'm doing that for now. FS code, particularly on -current, is way out of my league. :-) Regards, David From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 15:13:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA01190 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA01180 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA05027; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:12:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708042212.PAA05027@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:12:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "David Nugent" at Aug 5, 97 08:07:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Just incidently, it seems that support for ext2fs in -current is broken > right now, having had occasion to use it over the last few days. I > haven't had time yet to diagnose it in detail, but mention it now in > case someone has some ideas already and save some time. (Bruce? Are > you listening?) Sympoms are "block already freed" errors when > writing to the ext2fs filesystem, and eventually (sometimes very > quickly) a complete system freeze - no panic messages at all, no > ddb in spite of it being in the running kernel. Mounting it read-only > seems safe and stable enough, so I'm doing that for now. I think this has more to do with VM optimizations in the recent past, where the processing order dependencies haven't been propagated. Look at the last change date in ext2fs (one that isn't an attempt at a fix, and then look at the deltas to the UFS/FFS code from that date to present. This should tell you roughly the neighborhood, if in fact it's a VM related problem. There are really no other common subsystem dependencies that could have not been updated at the same time, I believe. You may want to look over the -current list archives; in particular, I believe John Dyson was doing-something/going-to-be-doing-something in this are as well (my memory may not be correct on this point, however). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 15:17:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA01403 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01398 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA07954; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:13:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Terry Lambert cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <199708032241.PAA02594@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > b) people like me, who have only one machine, usually > > > run the bleeding edge, > > > > I don't believe this is true. I believe true number of bleeding edge > > users is small. Unless your are a developer, there is little benefit. > > Other than SMP, what is in current that would tempt people to use it? > > 95% of the FreeBSD developers doing bug fixes. What percentage > of these developers are soing the same for 2.x? 2.2 is frozen, so bugfixes are infrequent because new bugs are not being created. Any bugs found in current that apply 2.2, are applied there as well. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 16:02:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA03986 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.166.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA03980; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (annexr2-42.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE) by Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE with SMTP id AA01577 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:59:02 +0200 Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.8.6/8.6.9) id AAA01204; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:58:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Face: " Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:58:58 +0200 From: Stefan Esser To: Chuck Robey Cc: Chris Timmons , current@FreeBSD.ORG, Stefan Esser Subject: Re: NCR behavior wrt spun-down disks at boot References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74 In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 01:10:17AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 4, Chuck Robey wrote: > Stefan, that complaint I made earlier? I have my disks jumpered to spin > up on command also. Don't get the error message, it just hangs at scsi > timeout, and never returns (other than that, I'm still waiting for your > clarification of what _file_ to revert to what version, or to revert the > entire sys code to what date?) Sorry, I thought I had sent you a reply ... Please check out rev. 1.99 and later of /sys/pci/ncr.c. You may want to go back to 1.102, then 1.100, then 1.99. The command is "cvs up -r 1.102 /sys/pci/ncr.c", but you surely already knew that ... Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 16:03:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04089 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE [134.95.166.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04057; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (annexr2-42.slip.Uni-Koeln.DE) by Octopussy.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE with SMTP id AA01634 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:03:13 +0200 Received: (from se@localhost) by x14.mi.uni-koeln.de (8.8.6/8.6.9) id BAA01234; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:03:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Face: " Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:03:11 +0200 From: Stefan Esser To: Chris Timmons Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, Stefan Esser Subject: Re: NCR behavior wrt spun-down disks at boot References: <19970417114955.56763@x14.mi.uni-koeln.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74 In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Timmons on Sun, Aug 03, 1997 at 09:46:53PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 3, Chris Timmons wrote: > > Hi Stefan, > > I have a couple of DEC RZ26L drives on an SC200 controller (data only, not > the boot device nor swap.) Presently I think they are jumpered to wait > for a start unit command before they spin up (I'll fix that the next time > I get into the box.) > > With -current of July 22, 1997, the boot probe works fine, and when fsck > touches them I get a couple of complaints but thereafter everything is ok: > > ncr1: rev 0x11 int a irq 11 on pci0.12.0 > ncr1: waiting for scsi devices to settle > scbus1 at ncr1 bus 0 > sd1 at scbus1 target 1 lun 0 > sd1: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > sd1: Direct-Access > sd1: 10.0 MB/s (100 ns, offset 8) > 1001MB (2050860 512 byte sectors) > sd2 at scbus1 target 2 lun 0 > sd2: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > sd2: Direct-Access > sd2: 10.0 MB/s (100 ns, offset 8) > 1001MB (2050860 512 byte sectors) > > > (complaints until the drives come up... work fine thereafter) Hmmm, doesn't your SCSI BIO Sstart those drives ??? Mine does ... > sd1: error code 1, retries:2 > sd1: error code 1, retries:1 > sd1: error code 1, FAILURE > sd2: error code 1, retries:2 > sd2: error code 1, retries:1 > sd2: error code 1, FAILURE > > With -current from today, things don't go as well. I don't have the > machine on a serial console, so I will paraphrase what happens. > > The boot probe does not succede and the system hangs. As in the log from > above, we get to: > > scbus1 at ncr1 bus 0 > > but then before we see sd1 (partially incomplete hand transcribed): > > scbus target 1 lun 0: command failed (9ff) @ fa043600 > > ncr1 Aborting Job... > ncr1:1: Error (10:0:) (8-0-0) (0/3) @ script 424 > > > and the reset switch is my only friend :( Hmmm ... > I think it is an acceptable solution for me to jumper the drives so that > they spin up on power, but I thought that this change in behavior was > noteworthy enough to call to your attention. Did you verify, that there is no problem, if your drives spin up as soon as power is applied ? Sorry, if it takes a few days until I'm able to send a reply, I'm currently overloaded with work :( Regards, STefan From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 16:20:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04880 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-94.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04830 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA02928 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:19:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:19:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Ncurses? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I noticed that the copy of ncurses in /usr/src/lib/libncurses is 1.8.6!?! dating from 1994. Version 1.9.9g has been out for a while and afaik is very stable, and version 4.0 has been released a while ago too. Perhaps someone could commit a newer version to -current. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 16:48:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06170 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06164 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 16:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA02209; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:46:39 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708042346.SAA02209@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks In-Reply-To: <199708042212.PAA05027@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "Aug 4, 97 03:12:08 pm" To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:46:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > You may want to look over the -current list archives; in particular, > I believe John Dyson was doing-something/going-to-be-doing-something > in this are as well (my memory may not be correct on this point, > however). > I guess I'll be installing Linux tomorrow night, so I can run complete EXT2FS tests. John From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 18:56:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA12182 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12130 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.Mcs.Net (karl@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA21634; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:55:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Jupiter.Mcs.Net (8.8.5/8.8.2) id UAA04050; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:55:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970804205548.33780@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:55:48 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: Terry Lambert Cc: Studded@dal.net, lists@tar.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND References: <199708032359.QAA21392@mail.san.rr.com> <199708041726.KAA04299@phaeton.artisoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.64 In-Reply-To: <199708041726.KAA04299@phaeton.artisoft.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 10:26:46AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 04, 1997 at 10:26:46AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >Someone has stated that their new "bind" is complaining about my > > >use of an alias record as the name of my DNS server. > > > > This has always been an error, but BIND 8.1.1 is more vocal about > > it now. TMK BIND 4.9.6 does not exhibit any differences in relation to > > this from the BIND 4.9.4 we had in the tree. In any case, what you're > > doing will still work, and 8.1.1 allows you to send those error messages > > to /dev/null if you like. > > Not on other peoples machines, I can't. > > > > >This is a bogus thing for it to do, since it is imperitive that > > >you be able to use a DNS rotor for DNS services, if you have > > >equivalent servers for reasons of fault tolerance. > > > > Without going into too much detail that's better left for > > bind-users@vix.com, a dns rotary is certainly not "imperative," and BIND > > is actually pretty smart about sending its queries to the one of your name > > servers that is in the best network position to it. > > My particular use is to allow moving my secondary all over creation > as the whim takes me. That is because my secondary is a box which > can be booted into multiple OS's, each of which has a different IP > address. > > The reasoning behind this is to ensure that my MX records don't > point to a machine that has a mail demon, but none of the original > accounts. > > I can live with my secondary MX queueing up mail. > > I can *not* live with my mail being refused for the lack of a > correctly named account at the primary MX's IP address. You're already stuck with that due to caching behavior. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, http://www.mcs.net/ Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| NOW Serving 56kbps DIGITAL on our analog lines! Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal From owner-freebsd-current Mon Aug 4 19:16:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA12817 for current-outgoing; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12811 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13712 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:15:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708050215.UAA13712@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: current@freebsd.org Subject: tsleep & KTRACE on SMP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:15:55 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I am debugging PR kern/3835 and find that the problem is in tsleep(). Specifically if the config file contains: config dumps on wd0 the code to set this up happens in configure() b4 curproc (ie *p) is setup. configure() maintains the variable 'cold' to deal with this issue. However when KTRACE is enabled the code in tsleep attempts to use curproc before testing 'cold': ----------------------------------- cut ----------------------------------- tsleep(ident, priority, wmesg, timo) { ... #ifdef KTRACE if (KTRPOINT(p, KTR_CSW)) ktrcsw(p->p_tracep, 1, 0); #endif s = splhigh(); if (cold || panicstr) { /* * After a panic, or during autoconfiguration, * just give interrupts a chance, then just return; * don't run any other procs or panic below, * in case this is the idle process and already asleep. */ splx(safepri); splx(s); return (0); } #ifdef DIAGNOSTIC ----------------------------------- cut ----------------------------------- if I move the "ifdef KTRACE" section to after the "if (cold ..." test the SMP kernel is happy. Does anyone see why this would be a bad thing to do in the general (ie UP) case? Or should I conditionalize the location of the KTRACE code with "ifdef SMP"? -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 00:48:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA27389 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca8-36.ix.netcom.com [207.93.141.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA27384 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.6/8.6.9) id AAA15842; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708050747.AAA15842@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <4492.870649823@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * major release # and the old -current becoemes -stable), I don't see * how this is such a tremendous hardship - there will be ample time to * sort the issues out. It is, trust me. You just never had to do it. When I dropped 3.0-current support for awhile for 2.2 release (it was supposed to be only a couple of weeks, but turned out to be four months), it took me an incredible amount of work to get everything back up again. And we only had about 700 ports back then. One thing to note is that I'm not supervising a group of people hired to do ports work from 9 to 5. It's not like I can yell "Ok guys! No more -stable work! Go convert your machines to -current! Now fix the bugs!". The porters have their machines to work on, and they are either -stable or -current (and it seems we have a pretty good balance now). So it's actually EASIER to work on both branches, and to make sure things don't get entirely out of track wrt -current. * And to those who would argue that not having ports for the duration of * -current's run is such a terrible thing, I might respectfully suggest * that you have your priorities exactly reversed, and not because "users * are more important than developers" (as Garrett accused me of * believing in a private email) but rather because of the user ratios we * have. Most people run the release branches and most people are Nobody said we need to support -current developers because they are more valuable than users. The fact is that many ports developers run -current for one reason or another, and there is no reason for me to not take their patches and modifications as long as the ports still work for -stable. And as Andreas and Steve P. (among others) pointed out, it is simply just a matter of effictive use of their time. I'd rather see fsmp commit in /sys than trying to fix up his tcl build by hand. * Satoshi has been petititioned more times than I can count to support * the 2.2.x folks and he's answered each time that trying to maintain an * active ports tree for *two* branches is just too much work. Now given Excuse me, but I have been supporting the 2.2.x folks from the very beginning, and will continue to do so. I learned the lesson in the 2.1.x fiasco. We should never have planned to release a new version without updating ports and packages. (We realized that when 2.1.5 went out, but by then it was too late to resync....) * that, who does it make more sense to keep ports "active" for - the * -current users or the -stable users? Given the comparative rates of * change in each branch, which makes the most *sense* to support? Given Nobody is saying "I want ports-current!!! Drop ports-stable!!!". This argument is totally moot. * I'm not so pessimistic as this, given the long release cycles we have. * Once -current actually shows signs of becoming a released product, and * I don't see that happening anywhere before the end of the year, people * can take whatever was active in the RELENG_2_2 branch and retrofit it * into -current. With the same argument about -current moving faster and faster, it's going to be harder and harder to catch the longer we let it run ahead of us. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 01:00:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA27978 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA27968 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id RAA27445; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:29:53 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708050759.RAA27445@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <199708050747.AAA15842@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> from Satoshi Asami at "Aug 5, 97 00:47:56 am" To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:29:53 +0930 (CST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Satoshi Asami stands accused of saying: > > And as Andreas and Steve P. (among others) pointed out, it is simply > just a matter of effictive use of their time. I'd rather see fsmp > commit in /sys than trying to fix up his tcl build by hand. I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on anyone here, but if the ports stuff was set up to be less intertwingled with the base system, this wouldn't be so much of an issue. > With the same argument about -current moving faster and faster, it's > going to be harder and harder to catch the longer we let it run ahead > of us. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you should let it run away completely, but on the other hand it's not worth killing yourselves trying to track -current very closely, especially as it's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 01:02:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA28053 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca8-36.ix.netcom.com [207.93.141.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28046 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.6/8.6.9) id BAA15890; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708050801.BAA15890@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <2920.870634837@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * To put it another way, if something as minor as a new version of TCL * going in screws up the ports collection this badly then we've already The problem is not whether a new version of tcl is "minor" or "major", Jordan. The problem is that many ports rely on the internals, and there is no easy way to make those ports work independently of tcl versions. On the other hand, the normal -current irregularities (Garrett's network header works, for instance), while it may break a lot of ports at first, are very easy to fix because it's just a simple "#if" job just repeated N times or N ports. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 01:03:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA28166 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:03:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28150 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA09350; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:02:53 -0700 (PDT) To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) cc: helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Aug 1997 00:47:56 PDT." <199708050747.AAA15842@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 01:02:53 -0700 Message-ID: <9346.870768173@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > One thing to note is that I'm not supervising a group of people hired > to do ports work from 9 to 5. It's not like I can yell "Ok guys! No > more -stable work! Go convert your machines to -current! Now fix the > bugs!". The porters have their machines to work on, and they are > either -stable or -current (and it seems we have a pretty good balance > now). So it's actually EASIER to work on both branches, and to make > sure things don't get entirely out of track wrt -current. Maybe we should start hiring people. :-) > Excuse me, but I have been supporting the 2.2.x folks from the very > beginning, and will continue to do so. I learned the lesson in the > 2.1.x fiasco. We should never have planned to release a new version > without updating ports and packages. (We realized that when 2.1.5 > went out, but by then it was too late to resync....) Sorry for the misinformation then. I guess I failed to take into account the fact that even though you don't commit stuff onto that *branch*, you're still #ifdef'ing things so that they work in both environments. Is that a fair summary? > With the same argument about -current moving faster and faster, it's > going to be harder and harder to catch the longer we let it run ahead > of us. Well, I'm open to suggestions. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 01:05:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA28282 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca8-36.ix.netcom.com [207.93.141.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28268 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.6/8.6.9) id BAA15896; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708050804.BAA15896@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com CC: dg@root.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19970804075239.10145@klemm.gtn.com> (message from Andreas Klemm on Mon, 4 Aug 1997 07:52:39 +0200) Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * > In any case, Satoshi is and always has been in charge of the ports * > tree and whatever he wants to do with it (within reason :-)) is * > his decision. * * And the user / committers ? ;-) Satoshi then sitting between the * chairs ;-) I'm not sure what you mean here, am I sitting on the floor between two chairs, or in the high chair up the steps. ;) Anyway, I am now trying to find a way to make everyone happy. Stay tuned. Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 01:14:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA28713 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca8-36.ix.netcom.com [207.93.141.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA28703 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.6/8.6.9) id BAA15937; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708050814.BAA15937@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <742.870702685@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * I agree, and that's why I've always felt that dropping support for * ports in our current release branch was a big mistake. Much of the * user base agreed and wondered why -current got all the new toys while * they were left to stagnate, told on one hand to avoid current due to * instability or lack of testing and then told on the other that they * couldn't have all the nifty new ports because that was purely a * -current feature. That was pre-2.2. Since 2.2.1R, we fully support both releases as well as 2.2-stable and 3.0-current (I'll probably drop 2.2.1R soon though...are there anybody still pulling those off wcarchive, Jordan?). We get submissions from people running either of those. * It also still comes as something of a shock to me that many of the * people in this discussion who have been vehemently defending the idea * of maintaining a -current ports collection also go strangely silent * when this point is brought up. I guess that when it comes right down * to it, developers will always defend their interests first but I'd * hoped we might at least be a little less *obvious* about that. :) I was suggesting we only support 2.2.[12]R, 2.2-stable from now on and drop 3.0-current. If the 3.0-current people (who often are the most active of the port contributors) cry when I take away their toys, it is totally understandable. :) Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 01:30:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA29303 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca8-36.ix.netcom.com [207.93.141.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA29297 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.6/8.6.9) id BAA15979; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708050830.BAA15979@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <9346.870768173@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * Maybe we should start hiring people. :-) No way. We don't want to catch the Microsoft/Sunsoft/SCO virus. ;) * Sorry for the misinformation then. I guess I failed to take into * account the fact that even though you don't commit stuff onto that * *branch*, you're still #ifdef'ing things so that they work in both * environments. Is that a fair summary? Um, what branch are you talking about? The ports tree doesn't have any branches... Anyway, there haven't been many changes to the headers that makes ports not compile on 2.2.[12]R. (Most of the changes are to -current, and those are already properly #if'd out so ports work on -stable...no extra work for releases here.) The only major changes are utilities (like install-info) and .mk files, and I have packaged those up an have been offering them up as an "upgrade kit" that you can grab from the ports web page. Of course, something might have slipped past me, as I'm not test-compiling stuff on release machines, but I think we'll be seeing more bug reports in that case (like back in the 2.1.x days). Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 01:32:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA29409 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca8-36.ix.netcom.com [207.93.141.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA29401 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.6/8.6.9) id BAA15988; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708050832.BAA15988@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708050759.RAA27445@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> (message from Michael Smith on Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:29:53 +0930 (CST)) Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on anyone here, but if the * ports stuff was set up to be less intertwingled with the base system, * this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Well, that is the crux of the problem. I am currently working on that. (The shared library is the largest problem here...the rest is not that hard if we choose to ignore tcl in the base system.) Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 04:42:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA08369 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA08364 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 04:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id VAA28583; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:37:37 +1000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:37:37 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199708051137.VAA28583@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG, smp@csn.net Subject: Re: tsleep & KTRACE on SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I am debugging PR kern/3835 and find that the problem is in tsleep(). >Specifically if the config file contains: > >config dumps on wd0 > >the code to set this up happens in configure() b4 curproc (ie *p) is setup. >configure() maintains the variable 'cold' to deal with this issue. However >when KTRACE is enabled the code in tsleep attempts to use curproc before >testing 'cold': >----------------------------------- cut ----------------------------------- >tsleep(ident, priority, wmesg, timo) >{ > ... > >#ifdef KTRACE > if (KTRPOINT(p, KTR_CSW)) > ktrcsw(p->p_tracep, 1, 0); >#endif > s = splhigh(); > if (cold || panicstr) { Is an error to call tsleep with a NULL or uninitialized curproc. For the non-SMP case, when setdumpdev() is called, curproc is &proc0 (but proc0 is not completely initialized), and `cold' is 1. KTRPOINT(p, KTR_CSW) presumably evaluates to 0 so that there is no problem with KTRACE, and `cold' prevents other problems. Normally, the dump device is not hard-configured. Then settdumpdev() doesn't do much, and tsleep() is first called with curproc = &proc0 when the root file system is mounted. Fixes: 1. SMP apparently neeeds to set curproc to &proc0 earlier. 2. curproc should not be set to &proc0 before proc0 is fully initialized (setting it early is supposed to simplify trap handling, but actually complicates trap handling, since the contents of proc0 can't be relied on. E.g., enabling clock interrupts earlier would cause panics when null pointers to statistics are followed in the interrupt handler). 3. setddumpdev() should be called later. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 05:32:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA10167 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (ache.relcom.ru [194.58.229.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA09459 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA00254 for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:14:48 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:14:46 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= To: FreeBSD-current Subject: Easy way to panic -current (procfs), any user can Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Start this three lines in background or on other screen and produce some additional activity, compilations or grep are enough while(1) cat /proc/1/map end pmap_extract panic will follows within a minute. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 05:43:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA10724 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (ache.relcom.ru [194.58.229.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10598 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 05:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA00254 for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:14:48 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:14:46 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= To: FreeBSD-current Subject: Easy way to panic -current (procfs), any user can Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Start this three lines in background or on other screen and produce some additional activity, compilations or grep are enough while(1) cat /proc/1/map end pmap_extract panic will follows within a minute. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 06:58:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA14039 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14034 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16647; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:58:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <199708051358.JAA16647@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Philippe Charnier Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'd like to propose a public round of thanks to Philippe for going through all the utilities and fixing their man pages, usage functions, and whatnot to conform to the standards. It's this sort of scut-work that most of us try to avoid, and I'm glad to see someone willing to do it anyway... Good going, Philippe! -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 07:00:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA14184 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagual.pp.ru (ache.relcom.ru [194.58.229.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14112; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.8.6/8.8.5) id RAA00833; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:59:43 +0400 (MSD) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:59:41 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= To: davidn@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current Subject: init rc.shutdown code broken Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk TIOCSCTTY _always_ fails in following runshutdown() fragment: if ((fd = open(_PATH_CONSOLE, O_RDWR)) == -1) warning("can't open %s: %m", _PATH_CONSOLE); else { if (ioctl(fd, TIOCSCTTY, (char *)NULL) == -1) warning("can't get %s for controlling terminal: %m", _PATH_CONSOLE); To see this message just boot machine and then press CtrlAltDel at login: prompt. You can add sleep 30 to rc.shutdown to not miss it. So, console never be controlling terminal for shutdown process. I think it is because console t_session is aleady set. Don't have idea how to fix it, I try revoke() but it not helps. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 07:50:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA16710 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA16705 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 5 Aug 97 09:50:27 -0500 Received: from [205.215.203.135] by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 5 Aug 97 09:50:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:47:27 -0500 (CDT) From: dave adkins Reply-To: dave adkins To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ide_pci, Tyan S1563S, and busmastering dma Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Two things prevented the my Tyan S1562D from starting up in busmastering mode with FastDMA. 1) The conditional in generic_dmainit (ide_pci.c) was two restrictive to allow the Seagate CFA2161A to be recognized as DMA capable. 2) The Award bios (v4.01) does not enable FastDMA. When generic_dmainit is changed to allow PIO mode 3 drives and piix3 configuration is added to ide_pci_attach to enable enable FastDMA, the drive functions fine, and interrupt overhead as seen in sysctl -vm is about as low as for my NCR pci scsi. I also verified that the drive was, infact, using DMA by inserting counter in wdstart where wdd_dmastart kicks off the DMA. The counter shows usage for each of the configured drives. I assume that if I get no messages from the driver, the setup modes for the piix3 and the drives remain unchanged. What are the chances that the code could be changed to have configuration options to 1) relax the drive mode restrictions, and 2) force FastDMA? For now I just apply my own patch when I update my sources. The wd driver with FastDMA enabled has been working well for the past couple of days (since the SMP fix). dave adkins adkin003@gold.tc.umn.edu From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 08:36:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA18833 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18828 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:36:40 -0700 (PDT) From: garyj@frt.dec.com Received: from cssmuc.frt.dec.com (cssmuc.frt.dec.com [16.186.96.161]) by mail13.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id LAA31754; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by cssmuc.frt.dec.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/14Nov95-0232PM) id AA25084; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:20:39 +0200 Message-Id: <9708051520.AA25084@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: current@freebsd.org Cc: isdn@muc.ditec.de In-Reply-To: Message from Stephen Roome of Tue, 05 Aug 97 15:00:59 BST. Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com Subject: Re: ISDN drivers/cards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 Aug 97 17:20:39 +0200 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I can't let this go unanswered. It really got my dander up. steve@visint.co.uk writes: > I tried using bisdn, both with -current and 2.2.2, without much luck, I'm > in europe (england) and although bisdn connects and works most of the time > it did have a nasty habit of just halting the machine completely. If I > used natd and aliased a bunch of machines through it it crashed sooner.. > but it only seems to crash when bisdn I was using telnet. (ping etc. > wouldn't crash it for me). > > Basically though, bisdn isn't a workable stable system. It was a pain to > install and IMHO is a total mess. (Even sound cards need less junk in the > kernel.) > > Well, just wanted to say that in case someone suggests that we should all > be using bisdn. Because IMHO, it sucks, and really shouldn't be used as a > base for future code either. (except as a bad example.) > all I can say is that I've been using bisdn ever since it was ii0.2 and, except for lots of problems in the beginning, it's always worked very reliably for me. There are many people using bisdn with success and you shouldn't condemn it wholesale just because _you_ had problems with it. regarding the size of it, this is a result of having to make a dumb (passive) ISDN card look like an active card. With an active card 80% of the stuff wouldn't be needed. But, who wants to pay 4 or 5 times as much for an active card ? I admit that one could probably make a good case for moving stuff out of the kernel (the LAPB stuff, for instance). once the re-write is finished I expect that bisdn will become part of the source tree. A lot of people want to see it finally get integrated. if you're so dissatisfied with bisdn you can provide something better. No one's married to it and I'm certain that an alternative would not be rejected out-of-hand. --- Gary Jennejohn (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de (play) gj@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 09:01:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA19955 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ox.ismi.net (root@ox.ismi.net [206.31.56.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA19939 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aerosmith.dyn.ml.org (mrr@pm5-25.ismi.net [207.51.208.196]) by ox.ismi.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22655; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:56:35 -0400 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:01:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael R. Rudel" To: Satoshi Asami cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <199708050747.AAA15842@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Satoshi Asami wrote: [...] > Nobody said we need to support -current developers because they are > more valuable than users. The fact is that many ports developers run > -current for one reason or another, and there is no reason for me to > not take their patches and modifications as long as the ports still > work for -stable. Well, if they are RUNNING -current, meaning they are (or should be, or have some clue) a developer, they should be able to port most things on their own, IMO, so really -current ports shouldn't be of the utmost prioirty. If someone is running -stable, this means they don't have time to port it themself, the knowledge, or something else > > And as Andreas and Steve P. (among others) pointed out, it is simply > just a matter of effictive use of their time. I'd rather see fsmp > commit in /sys than trying to fix up his tcl build by hand. > > * Satoshi has been petititioned more times than I can count to support > * the 2.2.x folks and he's answered each time that trying to maintain an > * active ports tree for *two* branches is just too much work. Now given > > Excuse me, but I have been supporting the 2.2.x folks from the very > beginning, and will continue to do so. I learned the lesson in the > 2.1.x fiasco. We should never have planned to release a new version > without updating ports and packages. (We realized that when 2.1.5 > went out, but by then it was too late to resync....) > > * that, who does it make more sense to keep ports "active" for - the > * -current users or the -stable users? Given the comparative rates of > * change in each branch, which makes the most *sense* to support? Given > > Nobody is saying "I want ports-current!!! Drop ports-stable!!!". > This argument is totally moot. > > * I'm not so pessimistic as this, given the long release cycles we have. > * Once -current actually shows signs of becoming a released product, and > * I don't see that happening anywhere before the end of the year, people > * can take whatever was active in the RELENG_2_2 branch and retrofit it > * into -current. > > With the same argument about -current moving faster and faster, it's > going to be harder and harder to catch the longer we let it run ahead > of us. > > Satoshi > -- Michael R. Rudel -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- mrr@aerosmith.dyn.ml.org FreeBSD aerosmith.dyn.ml.org 3.0-CURRENT PGP Key Block: finger mrrpgp@aerosmith.dyn.ml.org When you are born your afraid of the darkness ... Then your afraid of the light ... I'm not afraid when I dance with my shadows ... This time I'm gonna get it right ... -- Aerosmith: Taste of India From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 09:18:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20789 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20784 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21968; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA25339; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:19:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:19:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Michael Smith cc: Satoshi Asami , jkh@time.cdrom.com, helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <199708050759.RAA27445@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on anyone here, but if the > ports stuff was set up to be less intertwingled with the base system, > this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Doesn't something seem very wrong with saying "Ok, we're going to have Tcl in the base system, but no applications are allowed to use it."? For all the arguments about trying to keep diskspace requirements, etc. low for the sake of people running "jelly-bean 486s", this "We want Tcl, but you can't use it; you have to get a duplicate copy from ports" seems a tad ...hypocritical. To say the ports system should (dynamically?) determine if the base system's Tcl is useable is one thing, but to say the ports system should never use the base system (Tcl being the specific part of the base system under discussion) is another. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 09:42:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA22167 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22159 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA06341; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:39:28 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708051639.JAA06341@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND To: karl@Mcs.Net (Karl Denninger) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:39:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, Studded@dal.net, lists@tar.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970804205548.33780@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> from "Karl Denninger" at Aug 4, 97 08:55:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I can live with my secondary MX queueing up mail. > > > > I can *not* live with my mail being refused for the lack of a > > correctly named account at the primary MX's IP address. > > You're already stuck with that due to caching behavior. My primary MX is on the other side of a firewall. Outside deliveries to my primary MX all fail. They are delivered to a gateway machine -- my secondary MX. The secondary MX can get through the firewall, and flushes it's queue with relative rapidity, since it is also a CC:Mail gateway and is configured for protected trans-firewall delivery. The secondary MX contains the DNS records for the target of the CNAME, and is the primary for the domain in which it is located. As far as DNS is concerned, a machine is available as a secondary, and is looked up through the firewall machine, which knows the target by multiple "alias" addresses. As far as SMTP is concerened, the primary mail exchanger is offline for all external mail, and transiently online from the point of view of the secondary. Thus everything "just works", and I do not have to fear stale cache data, per your allegation. Plus, I don not have the BS problems other people on this list who live behind firewalls suffer from (misconfigurations on their part, IMO). The one fly in the ointment is that I can not SPAM filter without receiving the SPAM from my secondary, first. This is a small price to pay, and everyone who gets used as a relay for SPAM to me gets an offer of gratis help to secure their machine from use as a relay, so SPAMing *me* is a losing proposition anyway. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 09:47:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA22454 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22443 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id JAA06371; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:44:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708051644.JAA06371@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts and ideas, and quirks To: bde@zeta.org.au (Bruce Evans) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:44:42 -0700 (MST) Cc: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au, terry@lambert.org, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708050926.TAA24268@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from "Bruce Evans" at Aug 5, 97 07:26:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> > Well bugs, typos or whatever, they still prevent them from being made into > >> > lkms. However I still don't see an ext2fs lkm or mount_ext2fs program > >> > (unless it's hiding from me), and mount -t ext2fs did need the kernel > >> > directive so afaic that's not really a typo. > > ext2fs depends on ufs and on `#ifdef EXT2FS' stuff in ufs, so it cannot > work as an LKM. I believe there are two instances of the UFS code created in this case... I don't believe it's a variant compilation of a single shared set of code. If I'm wrong, then the #ifdef's are a bug, just as #ifdef XSERVER in the console driver was a bug. > I saw a freeze for last week's kernel while testing this, but it seemed > to be a vfs problem. ddb kept working and showed that the mount list was > circular or something like that. I just created and mounted a few ext2fs > and a few ufs file systems on floppies, and did a few unintentionally > silly things like mounting on an already mounted-on /mnt. Which, of course, is *supposed* to work... 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 09:59:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23232 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23226 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04149; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:59:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:59:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708051659.KAA04149@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Garrett Wollman Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Philippe Charnier In-Reply-To: <199708051358.JAA16647@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> References: <199708051358.JAA16647@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'd like to propose a public round of thanks to Philippe for going ... *CLAP CLAP CLAP* Nate From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 10:37:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25094 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA25089 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wvnXb-000326-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:37:04 -0600 To: VaX#n8 Subject: Re: configuration file tricks of the masters Cc: netbsd-users@netbsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, misc@openbsd.org, mail2news@news.news.demon.net In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 Aug 1997 00:28:08 CDT." <199708030528.AAA24396@linkdead.paranoia.com> References: <199708030528.AAA24396@linkdead.paranoia.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 11:37:03 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708030528.AAA24396@linkdead.paranoia.com> VaX#n8 writes: : I am interested in: : o clever hacks : o generating multiple customized copies from one master : o mixing automatically-generated and user-generated data : o portable shell coding techniques : : Comments and submissions welcome. I'm not sure if this is the right forum to reply, but here are a couple of the ones that I use. I have a list of dirs that I want for my path. I don't want all of them in my path for a variety of reasons. So I use the following csh code to deal. It also shows how to have inline functions in tcsh. Kinda gross, but it does seem to do the job. set host=`uname -n` set __uname_s=`uname -s` set __uname_r=`uname -r` set os=`echo "$__uname_s-$__uname_r" | sed -e 's/\..*$//'` # This shows how to use aliases as inline functions in csh This really # should be expanded inline in the following code, but I'm leaving it # here so that I can know how to do this in the future. __maybe_add # takes two parameters: The env var to update, and the directory to # prepend if it isn't already in the path list. This is the closest # csh comes to functions... alias __maybe_add 'if ((:${\!:1}: !~ *:\!:2\:*) && -d \!:2) set \!:1=${\!:1}\:\!:2' # OK, let's try to be nice to the network and only do the rehashing # stuff once. Seems to be a tiny bit faster, but not by much in the # default case, and just as slow otherwise. We'll see if this is any # better than alternatives or not. It would appear that much of the # slowness is due to other factors (mostly the .subscriptions file that # is a little silly about some things). # # Also make sure that /usr/ucb is toward the front of the list. # set __P=/usr/ucb:`echo $PATH | sed 's=/usr/ucb==;s/::/:/;s/^://;s/:$//'` foreach i (~/bin ~/bin/$host ~/bin/$os \ ~imp/bin ~imp/bin/$host ~imp/bin/$os \ /usr/etc /usr/local/bin /usr/local/mh/bin \ /usr/local/bin/mh /usr/bin/X11 /usr/X11R6/bin \ /opt/SUNWspro/bin \ /usr/openwin/bin /usr/local/bin/X11 /usr/local/X11R6/bin \ /usr/ucb /usr/bin /bin /usr/sbin /sbin \ /usr/local/sbin /usr/ccs/bin .) __maybe_add __P $i end setenv PATH $__P unset __P unset __uname_s __uname_r unalias __maybe_add Warner From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 10:47:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25543 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagaio.voga.com.br (papagaio.voga.com.br [200.239.39.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA25534 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by papagaio.voga.com.br(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.06 (346.7 3-18-1997)) id 032564EA.00620479 ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:50:36 -0300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: VOGA From: "Daniel Sobral" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <032564EA.0060DE9E.00@papagaio.voga.com.br> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:46:57 -0300 Subject: FreeBSD and pkgs Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Some comments in the tcl vs ports thread, plus my current work with an AIX system, made me consider the following question: would it be possible/interesting/useful to use the existing pkg mechanism (used by packages and ports), or an improved version of it, to control versions in FreeBSD source and, possibly, patches? It's obvious that tools for migrating cvs information (or any other future source control system) to pck information would have to be used. It's not as obvious that we the resulting size could well exceed the available space on most /var partitions around. On the other hand, make world could use this information, if available, easing the pains and reducing the make world time. Possibly *greatly* reducing it. So, it seems the idea has it's shares of merits and flaws. My question is: has this been considered before? Can anyone add to the list of merits and flaws? From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 11:17:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27112 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kairos. (mal@kairos.algonet.se [194.213.74.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27105 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kairos. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA15206; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:23:44 +0200 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:23:44 +0200 Message-Id: <199708051823.UAA15206@kairos.> From: Mats Lofkvist To: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199708050800.BAA27988@hub.freebsd.org> (owner-current-digest@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Has anyone ever cross-compile for an NCR Tower XP on an NCR Tower 32? > > Now *THERE* was a reasonable cross-environment... NCR Towers brings me some memories; a few being scheduled to arrive at work later was the reason I started learning unix (mostly on 4.1 bsd) in -84, using them [i.e. system v] when they finally arrived in -85 was the main reason I ended up a bsd fanatic :-) I can't remember trying cross-compiling though, when we got the 32's the older ones were replaced. But since the NCR 32 was a 68020 machine and the XP used a 68010 (*) (if I remember correctly), maybe the same tools were used only with some flags to generate -010 code together with an extra set of libraries? That would make it a bit to easy to qualify as a cross environment imho. _ Mats Lofkvist mal@algonet.se (*) Or was it _two_ of them? I have some faint memories they had to use two to make it work with a multi-process os. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 11:27:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA27426 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27420 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.6/8.7.3) id UAA00589; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:27:31 +0200 (MEST) From: Sřren Schmidt Message-Id: <199708051827.UAA00589@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: ide_pci, Tyan S1563S, and busmastering dma In-Reply-To: from dave adkins at "Aug 5, 97 09:47:27 am" To: adkin003@gold.tc.umn.edu Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:27:31 +0200 (MEST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to dave adkins who wrote: > > Two things prevented the my Tyan S1562D from starting up in busmastering > mode with FastDMA. > > 1) The conditional in generic_dmainit (ide_pci.c) was two restrictive to > allow the Seagate CFA2161A to be recognized as DMA capable. > > 2) The Award bios (v4.01) does not enable FastDMA. > > When generic_dmainit is changed to allow PIO mode 3 drives and piix3 > configuration is added to ide_pci_attach to enable enable FastDMA, the > drive functions fine, and interrupt overhead as seen in sysctl -vm is > about as low as for my NCR pci scsi. > > I also verified that the drive was, infact, using DMA by inserting counter > in wdstart where wdd_dmastart kicks off the DMA. The counter shows usage > for each of the configured drives. I assume that if I get no messages from > the driver, the setup modes for the piix3 and the drives remain > unchanged. > > What are the chances that the code could be changed to have configuration > options to 1) relax the drive mode restrictions, and 2) force FastDMA? For > now I just apply my own patch when I update my sources. Lets have your patches, and we can pretty fast determine if it is safe to use... > The wd driver with FastDMA enabled has been working well for the past > couple of days (since the SMP fix). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sřren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 12:36:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00552 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoke.marlboro.vt.us (smoke.marlboro.vt.us [198.206.215.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00545 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cgull@localhost) by smoke.marlboro.vt.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/cgull) id PAA03935; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:36:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708051936.PAA03935@smoke.marlboro.vt.us> From: john hood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: dave adkins CC: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: ide_pci, Tyan S1563S, and busmastering dma In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under Emacs 19.34.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk dave adkins writes: > > Two things prevented the my Tyan S1562D from starting up in busmastering > mode with FastDMA. > > 1) The conditional in generic_dmainit (ide_pci.c) was two restrictive to > allow the Seagate CFA2161A to be recognized as DMA capable. > > 2) The Award bios (v4.01) does not enable FastDMA. > > When generic_dmainit is changed to allow PIO mode 3 drives and piix3 > configuration is added to ide_pci_attach to enable enable FastDMA, the > drive functions fine, and interrupt overhead as seen in sysctl -vm is > about as low as for my NCR pci scsi. 1) That conditional is restrictive because my drives (and most others on Pentium systems) are mode 4 drives, the issue of timing setup was messy, and I didn't need to do it. :) In other words, it's somewhat unfinished code. 2) "does not enable FastDMA": What precisely do you mean? Are you speaking of the FastDMAOnly bit in the timing control register? For a mode 4 PIO, mode 2 DMA drive, that bit should *not* be set. If you have a mode 3 PIO, mode 2 DMA drive, that bit should be set *or* the timing should be relaxed to accommodate both PIO and DMA. So the BIOS may not be doing the wrong thing. Can I get verbose boot messages from you, please, so I can see what's going on? (Hint: if the message spew is too long for the kernel message buffer, use ddb to breakpoint on ide_pci_attach(), use 'next' to finish it, and copy it down by hand.) > I also verified that the drive was, infact, using DMA by inserting counter > in wdstart where wdd_dmastart kicks off the DMA. The counter shows usage > for each of the configured drives. I assume that if I get no messages from > the driver, the setup modes for the piix3 and the drives remain > unchanged. > > What are the chances that the code could be changed to have configuration > options to 1) relax the drive mode restrictions, and 2) force FastDMA? For > now I just apply my own patch when I update my sources. Ideally, the code would figure this out all on its own. It's arguable we already ask for too much config info from the users of IDE drives. Practically...something will happen :) --jh -- John Hood cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us Predictably, they all eventually wandered away, rubbing their bruises and brushing mud out of their hair. Some went off to work for the ESA, launching much smaller rockets into low orbits, while others elected to sit on their front porches drinking Jim Beam from the bottle and launching bottle rockets from the empties. [Jordan Hubbard] From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 12:44:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01005 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA00989 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA06593; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:42:11 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708051942.MAA06593@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) To: mal@kairos.algonet.se (Mats Lofkvist) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:42:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708051823.UAA15206@kairos.> from "Mats Lofkvist" at Aug 5, 97 08:23:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I can't remember trying cross-compiling though, when we got the 32's > the older ones were replaced. But since the NCR 32 was a 68020 machine > and the XP used a 68010 (*) (if I remember correctly), maybe the same tools > were used only with some flags to generate -010 code together with an > extra set of libraries? That would make it a bit to easy to qualify as > a cross environment imho. It was the same front end, but there was a cc and a cc16 that were invoked, as well as na ld and na ld16. That you thought there was one code generator shows how well the cross environment was integrated. 8-). Actually, I never used it, but you could also build for one of their cash register controllers, as well. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 12:52:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA01297 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagaio.voga.com.br (papagaio.voga.com.br [200.239.39.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01269 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by papagaio.voga.com.br(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.06 (346.7 3-18-1997)) id 032564EA.006D61E8 ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:54:44 -0300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: VOGA From: "Daniel Sobral" To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Message-ID: <032564EA.006C9FB5.00@papagaio.voga.com.br> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:51:09 -0300 Subject: Fetchmail Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I was wondering... Wouldn't fetchmail make a valuable addition to the bin distribution? Not to mention that the recent 4.0 version (yeah, I know, Erik's at 4.0.8 or so at the present) was created just so it could be included in distributions (though he was thinking more of Linux). From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 13:49:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04242 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user8592@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04219 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 5 Aug 1997 20:50:46 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:50:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Any news on the following high-demand technologies? Universal Serial Bus (USB) http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices Intel 430TX Chipset / PIIX3 Controller http://www.developer.intel.com/deisgn/pcisets/prodbref/430tx/index.htm Concurrent PCI (2.1) built-in UltraDMA IDE (33MByte/sec) built-in USB support for SDRAM Accelerated Graphics Port (AGP) www.agpforum.org Souped up PCI slot for high performance VGA / HDTV DVD CD-ROMs and hardware decoders Any news would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Kevin From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 13:55:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA04544 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04539 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA11708; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:52:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:52:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Daniel Sobral cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fetchmail In-Reply-To: <032564EA.006C9FB5.00@papagaio.voga.com.br> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Daniel Sobral wrote: > I was wondering... Wouldn't fetchmail make a valuable addition to the bin > distribution? Not to mention that > the recent 4.0 version (yeah, I know, Erik's at 4.0.8 or so at the present) > was created just so it could be included > in distributions (though he was thinking more of Linux). I've looked at fetchmail, but never used it. It would just be a waste of space for me. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 14:20:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05610 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from verdi.nethelp.no (verdi.nethelp.no [195.1.171.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05583 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:20:03 -0700 (PDT) From: sthaug@nethelp.no Received: (qmail 13540 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Aug 1997 21:19:53 +0000 (GMT) To: freebsd@atipa.com Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:50:46 -0600 (MDT)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.05+ on Emacs 19.28.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 23:19:53 +0200 Message-ID: <13538.870815993@verdi.nethelp.no> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices Just where did you see this high demand for USB? I sure haven't noticed it. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 14:21:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05752 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05744 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA11975; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:21:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Mats Lofkvist cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) In-Reply-To: <199708051823.UAA15206@kairos.> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Mats Lofkvist wrote: > (*) Or was it _two_ of them? I have some faint memories they had to use > two to make it work with a multi-process os. If I remember right, the 68010 had a limitation that made it difficult to deal with page faults, so the second 68010's purpose was to take care of page faults, then let the primary 68010 continue. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 14:39:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06483 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user9480@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06471 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 5 Aug 1997 21:41:45 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:41:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: sthaug@nethelp.no cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <13538.870815993@verdi.nethelp.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? > > > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices > > Just where did you see this high demand for USB? I sure haven't noticed > it. It has very good potential. You can put several different types of devices on it, including but not limited to: keyboards, mice, modems, cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, printers, etc. It auto-detects the presence of devices with no need to reboot. Providing power allows for MUCH nicer cabling. With the powers that be* supporting USB, it would be foolish to show up late to the party. Even without broad peripheral support, consumer demand is high. It is our business to fill demands for hardware, and I can tell you lots of people are very interested. Kevin * From the FAQ: Who created USB anyway? USB was developed by a group of seven companies that saw a need for an interconnect to enable the growth of the blossoming Computer Telephony Integration Industry. The seven promoters of the USB definition are; Compaq, Digital Equipment Corp, IBM PC Co., Intel, Microsoft, NEC and Northern Telecom. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 15:18:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA08735 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08729 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05527; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:17:41 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:17:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708052217.QAA05527@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Daniel Sobral" Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fetchmail In-Reply-To: <032564EA.006C9FB5.00@papagaio.voga.com.br> References: <032564EA.006C9FB5.00@papagaio.voga.com.br> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I was wondering... Wouldn't fetchmail make a valuable addition to the bin > distribution? It's already a port, so it doesn't need to be a part of the base system, espeically given that it has limited 'general' use. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 15:32:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA09338 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA09331 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA06822; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:30:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708052230.PAA06822@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Make this a relese coordinator decision (was Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued) To: ejs@bfd.com (Eric J. Schwertfeger) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:30:36 -0700 (MST) Cc: mal@kairos.algonet.se, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Eric J. Schwertfeger" at Aug 5, 97 02:21:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > (*) Or was it _two_ of them? I have some faint memories they had to use > > two to make it work with a multi-process os. > > If I remember right, the 68010 had a limitation that made it difficult to > deal with page faults, so the second 68010's purpose was to take care of > page faults, then let the primary 68010 continue. Instruction restart was a problem on the 68010. The second processor ran one behind to handle the restart. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 15:45:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10045 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10037 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id RAA01129 for current@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:45:14 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708052245.RAA01129@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Whoops' To: current@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:45:14 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Current is currently broken -- I botched a commit, and it should be fixed in the next hour or so in the master repository. Those who are cvsup'ing from mirrors need to be careful until my fix propagates. Sorry John From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 15:50:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10434 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10429; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA12025; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:47:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Atipa cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > It has very good potential. You can put several different types of > devices on it, including but not limited to: keyboards, mice, modems, keyboards, mice, and modems are pretty simple. > cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > printers, etc. Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... tom From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 16:28:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12461 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:28:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12445 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) id QAA07089; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708052328.QAA07089@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: Daniel_Sobral@voga.com.br CC: freebsd-current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <032564EA.006C9FB5.00@papagaio.voga.com.br> (Daniel_Sobral@voga.com.br) Subject: Re: Fetchmail From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * I was wondering... Wouldn't fetchmail make a valuable addition to the bin * distribution? Not to mention that It may be valuable to some, but not to many others. That's what ports are for. :) Besides, that thing moves way too fast. (Try "cvs log" on the master Makefile!) Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 16:30:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12627 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.serv.net (root@mindbender.serv.net [205.153.153.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12590; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07056; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708052328.QAA07056@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Tom cc: Atipa , sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 05 Aug 97 15:47:38 -0700. Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 16:28:23 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, >> printers, etc. > Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and >higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of >this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... It's pretty unlikely you'll be saturating all those devices at the _same_ time. And nobody is going to _force_ you to buy USB peripherals, if you have higher-demand situations. Standard PCI, SCSI, and in the future FireWire, devices will still exist for server situations. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 16:50:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13408 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-7.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13403; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA00307; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:50:40 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:50:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Atipa cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices Since when is there a high demand for USB? *grin* That aside, FreeBSD 2.2.2R hung when I enabled the USB ports on my motherboard. Be cautious - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 16:57:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA13719 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-7.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13714; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA00901; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:57:13 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:57:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: Tom , Atipa , sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708052328.QAA07056@MindBender.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > >> cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > >> printers, etc. > > > Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and > >higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of > >this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... > > It's pretty unlikely you'll be saturating all those devices at the > _same_ time. And nobody is going to _force_ you to buy USB > peripherals, if you have higher-demand situations. Standard PCI, > SCSI, and in the future FireWire, devices will still exist for server > situations. That and don't most motherboards have two USB busses so you could put the network adaptors on one, and perhaps a cdrom, then the hdds on the other bus and still get decent performance. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:09:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17166 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17152 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.5/8.6.11) id SAA19780; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:09:00 -0700 (PDT) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199708060109.SAA19780@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:09:00 -0700 (PDT) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Alex" at Aug 5, 97 11:57:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > > > > >> cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > > >> printers, etc. > > > > > Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and > > >higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of > > >this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... > > > > It's pretty unlikely you'll be saturating all those devices at the > > _same_ time. And nobody is going to _force_ you to buy USB > > peripherals, if you have higher-demand situations. Standard PCI, > > SCSI, and in the future FireWire, devices will still exist for server > > situations. > > That and don't most motherboards have two USB busses so you could put the > network adaptors on one, and perhaps a cdrom, then the hdds on the other > bus and still get decent performance. > > - alex > > > IMO, USB is too limited in bandwidth. I wish the "powers that be" would skip it and move onto Firewire (IEEE 1394). -- William T. Wong Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:15:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17465 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@japan-103.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.225.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17455 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA01752; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:15:22 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:15:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: William Wong cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708060109.SAA19780@wiley.csusb.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, William Wong wrote: > IMO, USB is too limited in bandwidth. I wish the "powers that be" would skip > it and move onto Firewire (IEEE 1394). From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:16:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17540 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@japan-103.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.225.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17532 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA01758; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:16:20 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:16:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: William Wong cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708060109.SAA19780@wiley.csusb.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, William Wong wrote: > IMO, USB is too limited in bandwidth. I wish the "powers that be" would skip > it and move onto Firewire (IEEE 1394). I haven't followed the two standards closely at all, however all I know is that USB seems to be poppin up on more motherboards now for better or for worse. - alex P.S. sorry for the previous blank reply From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:20:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17677 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17671 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id KAA01570; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:49:53 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060119.KAA01570@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Aug 5, 97 12:19:00 pm" To: hoek@hwcn.org Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:49:53 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, asami@cs.berkeley.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek stands accused of saying: > On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > > I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on anyone here, but if the > > ports stuff was set up to be less intertwingled with the base system, > > this wouldn't be so much of an issue. > > Doesn't something seem very wrong with saying "Ok, we're going to > have Tcl in the base system, but no applications are allowed to > use it."? No. Applications can _use_ it; what is wrong is the ports collection _depending_ on it. Please avoid mixing Tcl specifically with the problems with the ports collection generally. The ports collection should make a minimal set of reasonable expectations about the host system, bearing in mind that it is no longer a single-target collection. All that has happened here is that it has become clear that it is not reasonable to expect the version of Tcl in the base system to remain the same. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:29:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17964 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.210.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17949; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0wvuu7-0005Ap-00; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:28:47 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:28:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Samplonius To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: Tom , Atipa , sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708052328.QAA07056@MindBender.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > >> cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > >> printers, etc. > > > Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and > >higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of > >this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... > > It's pretty unlikely you'll be saturating all those devices at the > _same_ time. And nobody is going to _force_ you to buy USB Just copy files from the CD-ROM or Jaz to the ethernet, or from the ethernet to the Jaz and you will _easily_ max USB. It is quite likely that someone will do this kind of stuff. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:44:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA18897 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA18888 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au id LAA18615 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6 for current@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:43:52 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:43:52 +1000 (EST) From: George Michaelson Message-ID: <199708060143.LAA18615@broon.off.connect.com.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (stale)current ->(cvsup)current failed! Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk trivial problems: 1) make world calls mtree but assumes group mail exists when this isn't in the current /etc/groups. value can be found manually from src/etc/groups so you can proceed but the thing probably wants a clean fix in the top-level Makefile to confirm new/changed values. How come mail wasn't in before? 2) noting that for 2.2.2 login.conf is known to be missing, its also missing in current as of a few months back sup-state and has now become mandatory. can be lived with with warnings. otherwise, it ran smoothly. First time in years make world has worked for me without manual intervention after compile begins. contrib/cvs used to bomb. -George From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:47:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19069 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19064 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au id LAA18653 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6 for current@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:46:47 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:46:47 +1000 (EST) From: George Michaelson Message-ID: <199708060146.LAA18653@broon.off.connect.com.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1) can somebody add the DMA warning issues to an FAQ so we can understand when it really means "DMA is disabled" as opposed to "your m.b. or BIOS doesn't support enabling, who knows, lets wing it" 2) flags 0x80ff80ff blows up in config on wdc but works on wd instances 3) assuming when an ASUS m.b. reports the disks are mode4 compliant its not lying, does adding the flags buy me anything 4) claims LINT explains how to enable new/untrustworthy DMA are untrue as far as I can see (but then I'm hyper dumb :-) -George From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:51:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19332 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19327 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA20961; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:51:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <199708060151.VAA20961@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: William Wong Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708060109.SAA19780@wiley.csusb.edu> References: <199708060109.SAA19780@wiley.csusb.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > IMO, USB is too limited in bandwidth. I wish the "powers that be" would skip > it and move onto Firewire (IEEE 1394). Everything that I've seen suggests that it's Intel that is pushing USB hard, and the peripheral vendors aren't very interested---they'd rather do 1394. Certainly that seems to be the case with the multimedia stuff I've seen glossies for. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:52:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19465 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19457 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au id LAA18687 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6 for current@FreeBSD.ORG); Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:51:46 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:51:46 +1000 (EST) From: George Michaelson Message-ID: <199708060151.LAA18687@broon.off.connect.com.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have a FreeBSDcurrent box with W95 under os-bs or bteasy. I managed to configure it to be the form that doesn't modify MBR so the boot process is wired. Like a fool (well actually, to fool my 4yo son into only getting W95) I wired W95 as default. So here I am (was) in FreeBSD with a new kernel to test, logged in remote (where you should never reboot but wtf, lets live dangerously) So how can you tune the bootmgrs from within FreeBSD? Sure, lotsa recipes to drop to DOS and run but given the damn thing is actually written by sysinstall (albiet via weird magic in wizards.c returning hex in structs) there really should be a way to tweak/frob from inside Unix and modify the 1-2 bits needed to flag what the preferred booting option is. Or isn't FreeBSD self-hosting in that sense? I know. if I want it, stop wingeing and code it myself. Just asking... All moot. I kicked it in the guts and the damn thing is sitting on that slime-green backdrop playing a 3-note lick by Brian Eno to itself. Sheesh, you think I'd have got one of the UnDerGrOuNd rewrite-boot-screens to work by now. Ach well. If nobody opens the door to the office, nobody will hear it screaming to itself. cheers -George From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 18:53:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19559 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.tamis.com (tamis.com [206.24.116.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA19538; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daveh@localhost) by sage.tamis.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA06069; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:52:28 -0700 (PDT) From: David Holloway To: Tom cc: Atipa , sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I see USB as another good way to get around the ever present "not enough irqs" problem On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Tom wrote: > > On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > > > It has very good potential. You can put several different types of > > devices on it, including but not limited to: keyboards, mice, modems, > > keyboards, mice, and modems are pretty simple. > > > cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > > printers, etc. > > Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and > higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of > this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... > > tom > From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:00:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA19917 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19906; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:00:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA01849; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:29:46 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060159.LAA01849@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: from Atipa at "Aug 5, 97 02:50:46 pm" To: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:29:45 +0930 (CST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Atipa stands accused of saying: > > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices There are several developers working on this. IMHO USB is an abomination with "Job Security" written on almost every page of the spec. 8( > Intel 430TX Chipset / PIIX3 Controller > http://www.developer.intel.com/deisgn/pcisets/prodbref/430tx/index.htm > Concurrent PCI (2.1) > built-in UltraDMA IDE (33MByte/sec) > built-in USB > support for SDRAM All of these either require no support, are already supported, or have been discussed above. > Accelerated Graphics Port (AGP) > www.agpforum.org > Souped up PCI slot for high performance VGA / HDTV Is a video driver issue; talk to Xi Graphics and the XFree86 people. > DVD CD-ROMs and hardware decoders How are they different from "normal" CD-ROMs? -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:00:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA19961 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-56.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA19940 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA01948 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:00:26 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:00:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: Alex To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Could someone clarify this? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I'm workin on a set of shell scripts to work as a kernel configurator, however there's quite a bit of stuff in the LINT file that I can't decipher. For instance, these networkdevices have no names attached to em, so I don't know what they are: ex0, eg0. The ambiguous wording on this options leaves me wonderin what device it's attached to LINT_PCCARD_HACK, and if it's really needed. Cause the generic kernel leaves this out afaict (as far as I can tell). - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:07:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA20328 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20306; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA01878; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:35:24 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060205.LAA01878@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: from Atipa at "Aug 5, 97 03:41:45 pm" To: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:35:24 +0930 (CST) Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Atipa stands accused of saying: > > > > Just where did you see this high demand for USB? I sure haven't noticed > > it. > > It has very good potential. You can put several different types of > devices on it, including but not limited to: keyboards, mice, modems, > cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > printers, etc. It does, indeed, have lots of "potential". It's also an incredible PITA to understand at the protocol level, much less actually work with. 8( I'm on their mailing list; I have so far been solicited for about US$10k worth of "training seminars", documentation, hands-on/hands-off/roaming hands support etc. > It auto-detects the presence of devices with no need to reboot. Providing > power allows for MUCH nicer cabling. With the powers that be* supporting > USB, it would be foolish to show up late to the party. It would also be foolish to leap in in a hurry and waste scarce developer resources on the next fad. > Even without broad peripheral support, consumer demand is high. It is our > business to fill demands for hardware, and I can tell you lots of > people are very interested. I think that the lack of peripheral support is telling; particularly the custom silicon that is almost critical to producing a cost-effective peripheral just hasn't made it to market yet. At the moment, a peripheral vendor has to undertake development of peripheral firmware several orders of magnitude more complex than anything that has ever been seen before, or wait for the silicon. Not being stupid, most are taking the latter approach. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:11:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA20552 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-56.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20547 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:11:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01986 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:11:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:11:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Another question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What devices is the pseudo sppp needed for? cx and ar? ar and sr? all three? - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:16:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA20800 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user15925@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20790 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 6 Aug 1997 02:18:59 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:18:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Michael Smith cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708060159.LAA01849@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Atipa stands accused of saying: > > > > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? > > > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices > > There are several developers working on this. IMHO USB is an abomination > with "Job Security" written on almost every page of the spec. 8( Ha. I see no NEED for USB; only added convenience. It would be easier to deal with than a cyclades! If a good API were present, it would be a nice "geek-port" type of interface. This type of interface, if well supported, would make computers EASIER. I know that is not the main concern of people in this group (who are oviously technically adept), but it is still a noble goal. One that is especially appreciated by those of us in the support industry! :) > > Intel 430TX Chipset / PIIX3 Controller > > built-in UltraDMA IDE (33MByte/sec) > > support for SDRAM > > built-in USB > > All of these either require no support, are already supported, or have been > discussed above. I do not believe UltraDMA is supported. The PIIX3 is quite a bit different than the PIIX2, with the RTC and USB built in. > > DVD CD-ROMs and hardware decoders > How are they different from "normal" CD-ROMs? They require hadware decoders. The cinema and audio industries freaked out when they saw the potential for digital duplicates. DVD is encrypted on the media and passed through a decoder. I am certainly no expert, but it does require additional hardware support, above and beyond the host interface. Kevin From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:23:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21291 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user16104@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21273 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 6 Aug 1997 02:25:14 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:25:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Michael Smith cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708060205.LAA01878@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It does, indeed, have lots of "potential". It's also an incredible > PITA to understand at the protocol level, much less actually work with. 8( I was wondering about that... > > power allows for MUCH nicer cabling. With the powers that be* supporting > > USB, it would be foolish to show up late to the party. > > It would also be foolish to leap in in a hurry and waste scarce > developer resources on the next fad. Time is most certainly a precious commodity. Hearing the PITA nature, I can see why this is by no means "urgent"... > > Even without broad peripheral support, consumer demand is high. It is our > > business to fill demands for hardware, and I can tell you lots of > > people are very interested. > > I think that the lack of peripheral support is telling; particularly > the custom silicon that is almost critical to producing a > cost-effective peripheral just hasn't made it to market yet. At the > moment, a peripheral vendor has to undertake development of peripheral > firmware several orders of magnitude more complex than anything that > has ever been seen before, or wait for the silicon. Good observations! That was the answer I was looking for. Kevin From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:36:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22066 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA22059 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dual (DUAL [192.187.167.136]) by mantar.slip.netcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13308 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970805193641.00ee87b0@mantar.slip.netcom.com> X-Sender: guest@mantar.slip.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 19:36:41 -0700 To: current@freebsd.org From: Manfred Antar Subject: duplicate messages from current Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I seem to be getting a lot of duplicate mail from current is anybody else seeing this? Manfred |==============================| | mantar@netcom.com | | Ph. (415) 681-6235 | |==============================| From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:42:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22334 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-56.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA22324; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02073; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:40:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Michael Smith cc: Atipa , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708060159.LAA01849@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > DVD CD-ROMs and hardware decoders > > How are they different from "normal" CD-ROMs? I have no idea, however Memphis has a whole set of drivers specific for DVD stuff and a whole bug section. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:43:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22454 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.iastate.edu (cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA22445 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from popeye.cs.iastate.edu (popeye.cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.4]) by cs.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA12038 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:42:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (ghelmer@localhost) by popeye.cs.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA07927 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:42:53 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: popeye.cs.iastate.edu: ghelmer owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:42:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Guy Helmer To: current@freebsd.org Subject: nvi, was Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl , broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <199708060119.KAA01570@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > [...] > All that has happened here is that it has become clear that it is not > reasonable to expect the version of Tcl in the base system to remain the > same. Just a "heads up" re: vi and tcl... I don't "clean" the object directories, and found that /usr/obj/usr/src/usr.bin/vi/.depend still expected libtcl.so.7.5 to be around after the "great update" to tcl 8 (I tend to remove old libraries to see what breaks). So, I had to rm vi's .depend and "make depend" again for vi to build successfully again after 7.5 disappeared. Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:53:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA23043 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x22 (ppp1659.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23038 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by x22 (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA01284; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:52:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Michael Smith cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) In-Reply-To: <199708060119.KAA01570@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek stands accused of saying: > > > > Doesn't something seem very wrong with saying "Ok, we're going to > > have Tcl in the base system, but no applications are allowed to > > use it."? > > No. Applications can _use_ it; what is wrong is the ports collection > _depending_ on it. Where "applications" roughly equals "ports". Yes, that I agree with completely. I may have misunderstood your intent (I was relying on your prev. messages than this one specifically). -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:56:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA23133 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23111; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA02704; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:22:50 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060252.MAA02704@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: from Atipa at "Aug 5, 97 08:25:14 pm" To: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:22:50 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Atipa stands accused of saying: > > > It does, indeed, have lots of "potential". It's also an incredible > > PITA to understand at the protocol level, much less actually work with. 8( > > I was wondering about that... It just clicked who "Atipa" is; sorry I didn't get it before. If you have customers asking about USB, a couple of useful tactics : - Have a list of all the USB periphs you can source. Often this is small enough that they get turned off straight away. - Have a printed copy of the USB spec that you can wave at them. This works best if they're technically minded and read it, or you can smite them with it later. - Have some FireWire promo lit. instead and sell them on that. 8) > > I think that the lack of peripheral support is telling; particularly > > the custom silicon that is almost critical to producing a > > cost-effective peripheral just hasn't made it to market yet. At the > > moment, a peripheral vendor has to undertake development of peripheral > > firmware several orders of magnitude more complex than anything that > > has ever been seen before, or wait for the silicon. > > Good observations! That was the answer I was looking for. It's a sad one though; if the promised silicon had materialised when it was due, on cost, a USB peripheral would be absolutely trivial to manufacture, and we would be seeing a lot of USB hobby projects too. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 19:58:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA23269 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA23260; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA02729; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:27:58 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060257.MAA02729@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: from Atipa at "Aug 5, 97 08:18:58 pm" To: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:27:58 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Atipa stands accused of saying: > > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > > > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > > > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > > > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices > > > > There are several developers working on this. IMHO USB is an abomination > > with "Job Security" written on almost every page of the spec. 8( > > Ha. I see no NEED for USB; only added convenience. It would be easier to > deal with than a cyclades! If a good API were present, it would be a nice > "geek-port" type of interface. It's a hideous "geek port" interface. It has a complex, demanding protocol that, if implemented entirely in software would be well beyond the ability of the average "geek" programmer to get right. > This type of interface, if well supported, would make computers EASIER. I > know that is not the main concern of people in this group (who are oviously > technically adept), but it is still a noble goal. One that is especially > appreciated by those of us in the support industry! :) On the contrary, I would be overjoyed to see USB succeed. However, it adds components to the desktop cable mess, and these components currently cost real money. When I can buy a USB hub/controller interface chip in small volumes for under AUD$50 each, I'll say that USB has hit the "geek" market. In 10k volumes, an integrated USB target/micro device would have to be under the AUD$1 mark before it is cost effective. Try getting that sort of quantity pricing on the Z8 or PIC micros commonly used in serial mice these days... > > > DVD CD-ROMs and hardware decoders > > How are they different from "normal" CD-ROMs? > > They require hadware decoders. The cinema and audio industries freaked > out when they saw the potential for digital duplicates. DVD is encrypted > on the media and passed through a decoder. I am certainly no expert, but > it does require additional hardware support, above and beyond the host > interface. Hmm. No documentation or hardware generally available? > Kevin -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:02:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23472 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23467 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA13270; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:59:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:59:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Alex cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Alex wrote: > Ok, I'm workin on a set of shell scripts to work as a kernel configurator, > however there's quite a bit of stuff in the LINT file that I can't > decipher. For instance, these networkdevices have no names attached to em, > so I don't know what they are: > > ex0, eg0. man 4 ex man 4 eg > The ambiguous wording on this options leaves me wonderin what device > it's attached to LINT_PCCARD_HACK, and if it's really needed. Cause > the generic kernel leaves this out afaict (as far as I can tell). > > - alex > > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:12:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23856 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23849 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id MAA02887; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:42:02 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060312.MAA02887@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-Reply-To: <199708060146.LAA18653@broon.off.connect.com.au> from George Michaelson at "Aug 6, 97 11:46:47 am" To: ggm@connect.com.au (George Michaelson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:42:02 +0930 (CST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk George Michaelson stands accused of saying: > > 1) can somebody add the DMA warning issues to an FAQ so we can understand > when it really means "DMA is disabled" as opposed to "your m.b. or BIOS > doesn't support enabling, who knows, lets wing it" If you are running -current you are expected to be able to work this sort of thing out for yourself. Adding diagnostic messages from a developmental driver to the FAQ is stupid. > 2) flags 0x80ff80ff blows up in config on wdc but works on wd instances This is nonsense; you can't put flags on 'wd' instances, and it works fine on 'wdc' (the only place you _can_ put it). > 3) assuming when an ASUS m.b. reports the disks are mode4 compliant its not > lying, does adding the flags buy me anything Which flags? The 80ff flags for each channel are required for 32-bit and multi-block mode to be used, yes. > 4) claims LINT explains how to enable new/untrustworthy DMA are untrue as > far as I can see (but then I'm hyper dumb :-) Read the commit message, or wait for the final version of the code 8) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:15:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24003 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-56.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23998 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA02246; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:15:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:15:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: Alex To: Tom cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Tom wrote: > man 4 ex > man 4 eg Couldn't _someone_ commit this to the lint file tho? It would be very very helpful. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:17:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24157 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24150 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id NAA19577 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:15:44 +1000 (EST) To: Michael Smith cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 12:42:02 +0930." <199708060312.MAA02887@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 13:15:39 +1000 Message-ID: <19569.870837339@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If you are running -current you are expected to be able to work this sort of thing out for yourself. Adding diagnostic messages from a developmental driver to the FAQ is stupid. Point taken. This is nonsense; you can't put flags on 'wd' instances, and it works fine on 'wdc' (the only place you _can_ put it). Goest thou and read LINT. I'm afraid you can flag wd0 as well as wdc0 and as I said, flag wdc0 broke for me. Its highly position specific and by adding said word, config blew up at me. Which flags? The 80ff flags for each channel are required for 32-bit and multi-block mode to be used, yes. Yes, but in the absence of any guidance, what does it buy me? I'm down-speeding from SPARCland where its all moot. I am not clue-dense with respect to the advantages one way or another. > 4) claims LINT explains how to enable new/untrustworthy DMA are untrue as > far as I can see (but then I'm hyper dumb :-) Read the commit message, or wait for the final version of the code 8) Impatience tending to a maximum. Bit concerned you abjure flags can't on devices and can on controllers. Tain't what I see since cvsup last night. -George From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:25:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA24612 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-56.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24607 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA02270; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:25:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:25:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Tom cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Tom wrote: > > man 4 ex > man 4 eg Well, I looked at the manpage again, and I saw this device ex0 at isa? port? net irq? vector exintr DESCRIPTION The ex driver provides support for the 16-bit PCI Intel EtherExpress Pro/10 Ethernet card based on the Intel i82595 chip. Is it PCI or Isa? or both? or what? - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:38:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA25291 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25286 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA03311; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:07:52 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060337.NAA03311@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-Reply-To: <19569.870837339@connect.com.au> from George Michaelson at "Aug 6, 97 01:15:39 pm" To: ggm@connect.com.au (George Michaelson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:07:52 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk George Michaelson stands accused of saying: > > This is nonsense; you can't put flags on 'wd' instances, and it works > fine on 'wdc' (the only place you _can_ put it). > > Goest thou and read LINT. I'm afraid you can flag wd0 as well as wdc0 > and as I said, flag wdc0 broke for me. Its highly position specific and > by adding said word, config blew up at me. # ST-506, ESDI, and IDE hard disks: `wdc' and `wd' # # NB: ``Enhanced IDE'' is NOT supported at this time. # # The flags fields are used to enable the multi-sector I/O and # the 32BIT I/O modes. The flags may be used in either the controller # definition or in the individual disk definitions. The controller # definition is supported for the boot configuration stuff. # # Each drive has a 16 bit flags value defined: # The low 8 bits are the maximum value for the multi-sector I/O, # where 0xff defaults to the maximum that the drive can handle. # The high bit of the 16 bit flags (0x8000) allows probing for # 32 bit transfers. # # The flags field for the drives can be specified in the controller # specification with the low 16 bits for drive 0, and the high 16 bits # for drive 1. # e.g.: #controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 flags 0x00ff8004 vector wdintr # # specifies that drive 0 will be allowed to probe for 32 bit transfers and # a maximum multi-sector transfer of 4 sectors, and drive 1 will not be # allowed to probe for 32 bit transfers, but will allow multi-sector # transfers up to the maximum that the drive supports. # # controller wdc0 at isa? port "IO_WD1" bio irq 14 vector wdintr disk wd0 at wdc0 drive 0 disk wd1 at wdc0 drive 1 controller wdc1 at isa? port "IO_WD2" bio irq 15 vector wdintr disk wd2 at wdc1 drive 0 disk wd3 at wdc1 drive 1 I'd have to say I can't see any flags on the 'wdX' entries there, and the syntax given for 'wdc' has worked fine for me ever since it was introduced. > Which flags? The 80ff flags for each channel are required for 32-bit > and multi-block mode to be used, yes. > > Yes, but in the absence of any guidance, what does it buy me? I'm down-speeding > from SPARCland where its all moot. I am not clue-dense with respect to the > advantages one way or another. What more do you need to know that's not covered above? Ifyou know understand, can you encapsulate the information you obtained in a fashion that could be presented to other people in the uninformed state? > Bit concerned you abjure flags can't on devices and can on > controllers. Tain't what I see since cvsup last night. Flags can go on devices and controllers, but not disks. I suspect you are looking at the wrong entry in LINT. (Note the above excerpt is from version 1.356, dated four days ago with my name on it...) -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:41:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA25614 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25606 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id NAA19839 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:39:50 +1000 (EST) To: Michael Smith cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 13:07:52 +0930." <199708060337.NAA03311@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 13:39:49 +1000 Message-ID: <19837.870838789@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # The flags fields are used to enable the multi-sector I/O and # the 32BIT I/O modes. The flags may be used in either the controller # definition or in the individual disk definitions. The controller ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ wot does this mean if not add flags to wd instead of wdc # definition is supported for the boot configuration stuff. -George From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:46:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA25909 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25903 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA03458; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:15:30 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060345.NAA03458@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-Reply-To: <19837.870838789@connect.com.au> from George Michaelson at "Aug 6, 97 01:39:49 pm" To: ggm@connect.com.au (George Michaelson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:15:30 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk George Michaelson stands accused of saying: > > # The flags fields are used to enable the multi-sector I/O and > # the 32BIT I/O modes. The flags may be used in either the controller > # definition or in the individual disk definitions. The controller > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > wot does this mean if not add flags to wd instead of wdc It would appear to mean that either someone made a mistake when they wrote that, or I have misunderstood the way that config(8) generates the data for the 'wd' disk entries. > -George -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:52:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA26170 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26165 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.8.6/8.8.5) id FAA02107; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:51:52 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199708060351.FAA02107@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: Another question In-Reply-To: from Alex at "Aug 5, 97 07:11:16 pm" To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:51:52 +0200 (SAT) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What devices is the pseudo sppp needed for? cx and ar? ar and sr? all > three? Man 4 ar, man 4 sr, man 4 cx. :-) Sppp is the layer between the protocol stacks ip and ipx (when we do it someday) and the hardware device drivers. John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 20:54:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA26251 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26246 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA03532; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:24:14 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060354.NAA03532@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-Reply-To: <199708060312.MAA02887@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "Aug 6, 97 12:42:02 pm" To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:24:13 +0930 (CST) Cc: ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith stands accused of saying: > > > 2) flags 0x80ff80ff blows up in config on wdc but works on wd instances > > This is nonsense; you can't put flags on 'wd' instances, and it works > fine on 'wdc' (the only place you _can_ put it). Yeep. Re: later messages on this thread, 'disk' is a subclass of 'device', so of course you can put flags on them. Sorry for any confusion. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 21:05:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA26613 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.serv.net (root@mindbender.serv.net [205.153.153.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA26607 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA10213; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708060404.VAA10213@MindBender.serv.net> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.serv.net: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: William Wong cc: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex), current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 05 Aug 97 18:09:00 -0700. <199708060109.SAA19780@wiley.csusb.edu> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 21:04:37 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > >> cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, >> > >> printers, etc. >> > > Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and >> > >higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of >> > >this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... >> > It's pretty unlikely you'll be saturating all those devices at the >> > _same_ time. And nobody is going to _force_ you to buy USB >> > peripherals, if you have higher-demand situations. Standard PCI, >> > SCSI, and in the future FireWire, devices will still exist for server >> > situations. >> That and don't most motherboards have two USB busses so you could put the >> network adaptors on one, and perhaps a cdrom, then the hdds on the other >> bus and still get decent performance. >IMO, USB is too limited in bandwidth. I wish the "powers that be" would skip >it and move onto Firewire (IEEE 1394). Only if FireWire can be made as cheaply, or more cheaply, for the same components. If they can't be made very cheap, they won't ever get built into common main-stream stuff. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 21:17:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27421 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-56.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA27415 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA02404; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:16:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:16:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: John Hay cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another question In-Reply-To: <199708060351.FAA02107@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, John Hay wrote: > > What devices is the pseudo sppp needed for? cx and ar? ar and sr? all > > three? > > Man 4 ar, man 4 sr, man 4 cx. :-) Sppp is the layer between the protocol > stacks ip and ipx (when we do it someday) and the hardware device > drivers. I had a vague idea what sppp is, as it's in the LINT file. And _yes_ I probably should look in the man pages but the info in the lint file conflicts itself. Could use some clarification afaiac. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 21:58:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA29130 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www2.shoppersnet.com (shoppersnet.com [204.156.152.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29108; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hlew@localhost) by www2.shoppersnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA12056; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:01:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Howard Lew To: Atipa cc: Michael Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > > > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > > Atipa stands accused of saying: > > > > > > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? > > > > > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > > > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > > > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > > > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices > > > > There are several developers working on this. IMHO USB is an abomination > > with "Job Security" written on almost every page of the spec. 8( > > Ha. I see no NEED for USB; only added convenience. It would be easier to > deal with than a cyclades! If a good API were present, it would be a nice > "geek-port" type of interface. > > This type of interface, if well supported, would make computers EASIER. I > know that is not the main concern of people in this group (who are oviously > technically adept), but it is still a noble goal. One that is especially > appreciated by those of us in the support industry! :) > > > > Intel 430TX Chipset / PIIX3 Controller > > > built-in UltraDMA IDE (33MByte/sec) > > > support for SDRAM > > > built-in USB > > > > All of these either require no support, are already supported, or have been > > discussed above. > > I do not believe UltraDMA is supported. The PIIX3 is quite a bit > different than the PIIX2, with the RTC and USB built in. > UltraDMA is starting to get support. New drives by Quantum are now starting to have Ultra DMA/33. > > > > DVD CD-ROMs and hardware decoders > > How are they different from "normal" CD-ROMs? > > They require hadware decoders. The cinema and audio industries freaked > out when they saw the potential for digital duplicates. DVD is encrypted > on the media and passed through a decoder. I am certainly no expert, but > it does require additional hardware support, above and beyond the host > interface. > > Kevin > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shoppers Network (Support) AMD K5/K6s, Cyrix 6x86, Intel Pentiums/Pro Phone: (415) 759-8584 Email: howard@shoppersnet.com ==============================> WWW - http://www.shoppersnet.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 22:35:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00766 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luna.e-planet.com (luna.e-planet.com [192.203.7.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00744; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by LUNA.e-planet.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:34:47 -0700 Message-ID: <0FDE707975DCD0119E75006097C2ED880296AE@LUNA.e-planet.com> From: "Rahimi, Ali" To: Michael Smith , freebsd@atipa.com Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:34:46 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [usb is hard] [people push usb like slaves pushed stones near the Nile] Agreed. >It would also be foolish to leap in in a hurry and waste scarce >developer resources on the next fad. Not so if every major manufacturer is looking at USB and if you're intereseted in staying competitive. >I think that the lack of peripheral support is telling; particularly I think it's telling of the fact that most PCs don't have a USB port on them yet. Compaq and Dell will soon be shipping with USB ports however. USB will be here soon. Whether it will be a success, I don't know, I'm not an analyst, PCs with USB ports will be here. >the custom silicon that is almost critical to producing a >cost-effective peripheral just hasn't made it to market yet. At the I regularly go to 7 different silicon manufacturers when I'm looking for parts. I went through all 7 of them (they're bookmarked in my netscape). 5 of them had a USB support chipset (the other two were memory companies). I'd say the silicon has made it to market. (the manufacturers, for your reference include TI, National, NEC,Motorola, etc). >moment, a peripheral vendor has to undertake development of peripheral >firmware several orders of magnitude more complex than anything that >has ever been seen before, or wait for the silicon. >Not being stupid, most are taking the latter approach. No, I think most are waiting for the PCs to have the USB port in the back. I can't wait to not have to hook up my mouse, my keyboard and my speakers to three different looking and completely separate and dispersed jacks. ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ Ali. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 23:15:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA01989 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01984 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA13846; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:14:22 -0700 (PDT) To: George Michaelson cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (stale)current ->(cvsup)current failed! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:43:52 +1000." <199708060143.LAA18615@broon.off.connect.com.au> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 23:14:22 -0700 Message-ID: <13842.870848062@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1) make world calls mtree but assumes group mail exists when > this isn't in the current /etc/groups. value can be found This is documented in the mail archives for freebsd-current as readers were warned when the change went in - you simply need to create a mail group. > manually from src/etc/groups so you can proceed but the > thing probably wants a clean fix in the top-level Makefile No, there's no such thing as clean fix since /usr/src/Makefile is NEVER supposed to touch the contents of /etc. :-) > 2) noting that for 2.2.2 login.conf is known to be missing, its All stated in ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.2.2-RELEASE/ERRATA.TXT Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 23:16:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02072 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02065 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA13863; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:15:44 -0700 (PDT) To: George Michaelson cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:51:46 +1000." <199708060151.LAA18687@broon.off.connect.com.au> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 23:15:43 -0700 Message-ID: <13860.870848143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So how can you tune the bootmgrs from within FreeBSD? Sure, lotsa recipes > to drop to DOS and run but given the damn thing is actually > written by sysinstall (albiet via weird magic in wizards.c returning hex > in structs) there really should be a way to tweak/frob from inside Unix > and modify the 1-2 bits needed to flag what the preferred booting option is. I suppose, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that functionality. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 23:29:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02473 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from counterintelligence.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02467; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by counterintelligence.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01367; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:29:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: Atipa cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It needs to be faster --- ramp that 12MBit/sec up to 200MBit/sec and then we can talk.... Do you know if it uses differential rx and tx signal lines? On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > > > On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > > > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? > > > > > > Universal Serial Bus (USB) > > > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 > > > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs > > > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices > > > > Just where did you see this high demand for USB? I sure haven't noticed > > it. > > It has very good potential. You can put several different types of > devices on it, including but not limited to: keyboards, mice, modems, > cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > printers, etc. > > It auto-detects the presence of devices with no need to reboot. Providing > power allows for MUCH nicer cabling. With the powers that be* supporting > USB, it would be foolish to show up late to the party. > > Even without broad peripheral support, consumer demand is high. It is our > business to fill demands for hardware, and I can tell you lots of > people are very interested. > > Kevin > > * From the FAQ: > > Who created USB anyway? > USB was developed by a group of seven companies that saw a > need for an interconnect to enable the growth of the > blossoming Computer Telephony Integration Industry. > The seven promoters of the USB definition are; Compaq, Digital > Equipment Corp, IBM PC Co., Intel, Microsoft, NEC > and Northern Telecom. > From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 23:36:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA02894 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02885 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01529; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:54:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Alex cc: current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 02:00:25 -0000." Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 07:54:17 +0200 Message-ID: <1527.870846857@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Alex wri tes: >Ok, I'm workin on a set of shell scripts to work as a kernel configurator, >however there's quite a bit of stuff in the LINT file that I can't >decipher. For instance, these networkdevices have no names attached to em, >so I don't know what they are: > eg0 is the 3com "3c505" also known as "EtherLink+". You can recognize the card by its full length, has to red LEDs and a 80186 CPU on it. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Tue Aug 5 23:39:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA03064 for current-outgoing; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com ([140.145.230.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03048; Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01343; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:40:47 +0200 (CEST) To: Atipa cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Aug 1997 15:41:45 MDT." Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 07:40:47 +0200 Message-ID: <1341.870846047@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Atipa wri tes: > > >On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > >> > Any news on the following high-demand technologies? >> > >> > Universal Serial Bus (USB) >> > http://www.usb.org (503)264-0590 >> > Modular, _Powered_ I/O w/ neato hubs >> > 12Mbit/sec, up to 127 devices >> >> Just where did you see this high demand for USB? I sure haven't noticed >> it. > >It has very good potential. So did MCA bus, EISA bus, IBM RT/6150, MULTICS and so on. There's a wide gap between "very good potential" and "high-demand". -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 00:03:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA04524 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-19.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04518 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02983 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:03:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: libdialog,etc,etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just went slogging through some sources, and found that the dialog program has been updated. Some of the new features look really useful, and perhaps could add a little dare I say flair to the FreeBSD install and anything that uses libdialog. Just another zainy thought. It seems to compile fine outta the box too. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 00:17:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA05070 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from counterintelligence.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA05064; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by counterintelligence.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00221; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:16:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: Atipa cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sessreg, and Webramp M3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk 1. Has anyone out there managed to get sessreg to work correctly -- I don't have the source but I plan on taking a look at it soon, I'd like to get it working beacuse I have some x-terminals that I am running xdm for on my freebsd server and I'd like it to be show in utmp/wtmp etc. when a user on one of those logs in. 2. How would a person with multiple modems attached (suppose through a cyclades card) make a freebsd do whatever tricks the Webramp M3 does with uses multiple modems on presumably multiple IP addresses, much like a multihoned network but without gated. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 00:24:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA05511 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from counterintelligence.ml.org (mdean.vip.best.com [206.86.94.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA05504; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jamil@localhost) by counterintelligence.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00229; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:22:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: Tom , Atipa , sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708052328.QAA07056@MindBender.serv.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk If usb was runnning at 800mbps i'd throw away all scsi drives and use it for everything. On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > > >> cameras, network cards, cd-roms, DATs, ZIP/Jaz/SyQuest, scanners, > >> printers, etc. > > > Ugh... network cards can pull 10mbs easily, cdroms can do 8mbs and > >higher, Jaz drives can do 16mbs easily, and you are going to put all of > >this stuff on a shared 12mbs bus? Ugh... > > It's pretty unlikely you'll be saturating all those devices at the > _same_ time. And nobody is going to _force_ you to buy USB > peripherals, if you have higher-demand situations. Standard PCI, > SCSI, and in the future FireWire, devices will still exist for server > situations. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@MindBender.serv.net > --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- > NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, > Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... > NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 01:22:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA07885 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA07863 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id DAA13183; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id DAA05300; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:43:42 -0400 (EDT) To: Alex cc: William Wong , current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 01:16:19 -0000." Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 03:43:42 -0400 Message-ID: <5298.870853422@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex wrote in message ID : > I haven't followed the two standards closely at all, however all I know is > that USB seems to be poppin up on more motherboards now for better or for > worse. Probably 'cos it comes as standard with more modern intel `PCISets', so it's kinda difficult NOT to get it :) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 01:22:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA07917 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA07868; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id DAA13423; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by orion.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with ESMTP id DAA06856; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 03:47:52 -0400 (EDT) To: Alex cc: Michael Smith , Atipa , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Aug 1997 19:40:29 PDT." Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 03:47:52 -0400 Message-ID: <6854.870853672@orion.webspan.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex wrote in message ID : > I have no idea, however Memphis has a whole set of drivers specific for > DVD stuff and a whole bug section. Where is the MPEG2 decoder hardware that is associated with the DVD player? How do you control it? I bet thats what its for. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 02:11:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA10465 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA10458; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA06556; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:40:02 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708060910.SAA06556@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <0FDE707975DCD0119E75006097C2ED880296AE@LUNA.e-planet.com> from "Rahimi, Ali" at "Aug 5, 97 10:34:46 pm" To: ARahimi@e-planet.com (Rahimi, Ali) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:40:02 +0930 (CST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd@atipa.com, sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Rahimi, Ali stands accused of saying: > > >It would also be foolish to leap in in a hurry and waste scarce > >developer resources on the next fad. > > Not so if every major manufacturer is looking at USB and if you're > intereseted in staying competitive. This isn't obvious though. Where are all the USB peripherals? > >I think that the lack of peripheral support is telling; particularly > > I think it's telling of the fact that most PCs don't have a USB port > on them yet. Compaq and Dell will soon be shipping with USB ports > however. USB will be here soon. Whether it will be a success, I don't > know, I'm not an analyst, PCs with USB ports will be here. Well, USB ports have been a selling point on a lot of systems here, but most of the motherboards that ship with it come with mini-8 DIN connectors rather than the "real" USB connector. For all the hype, nobody has yet offered me a USB peripheral of any sort. > >the custom silicon that is almost critical to producing a > >cost-effective peripheral just hasn't made it to market yet. At the > > I regularly go to 7 different silicon manufacturers when I'm looking > for parts. I went through all 7 of them (they're bookmarked in my > netscape). 5 of them had a USB support chipset (the other two were > memory companies). I'd say the silicon has made it to market. (the > manufacturers, for your reference include TI, National, NEC,Motorola, > etc). Can you be a little more specific about this? Particularly, can you point me at the online documentation covering the _peripheral_side_ chipsets, specifically the ones that live in the I/O space of a host micro and subsume all the protocol management? These, and the obvious next step (putting the macrocell on the same silicon as a micro) need to be out and _cheap_ before USB will go anywhere. > I can't wait to not have to hook up my mouse, my keyboard and my > speakers to three different looking and completely separate and > dispersed jacks. I _appreciate_ having separate ports and sensible I/O mechanisms for diverse peripherals. I wish that the PC keyboard and rodent were integrated and used a standard serial interface, but I don't think that having a set of _speakers_ on USB makes any real sense at all. -- ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 04:37:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA17868 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA17862 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id VAA15302; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:30:42 +1000 Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:30:42 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199708061130.VAA15302@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> > 2) flags 0x80ff80ff blows up in config on wdc but works on wd instances >> >> This is nonsense; you can't put flags on 'wd' instances, and it works >> fine on 'wdc' (the only place you _can_ put it). > >Yeep. Re: later messages on this thread, 'disk' is a subclass of >'device', so of course you can put flags on them. The driver ORs the flags together (the low 16 bits of the disk flags with the relevant 16 bits of the controller flags). This seems to be a hack to let the flags be configured by userconfig. Userconfig neither sets nor displays the disk flags, so you should never set them if you ever use userconfig, since the unseen flags are at best confusing. Bruce From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 04:54:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA18713 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whqvax.picker.com (whqvax.picker.com [144.54.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA18695; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by whqvax.picker.com with SMTP; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 7:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from elmer.ct.picker.com ([144.54.57.34]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24183; Wed, 6 Aug 97 07:53:38 EDT Received: by elmer.ct.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA24471; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:50:55 -0400 Message-Id: <19970806075054.63235@ct.picker.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:50:54 -0400 From: Randall Hopper To: George Michaelson Cc: current@freebsd.org, emulation@freebsd.org Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD References: <199708060151.LAA18687@broon.off.connect.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199708060151.LAA18687@broon.off.connect.com.au>; from George Michaelson on Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 11:51:46AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk George Michaelson: |So how can you tune the bootmgrs from within FreeBSD? Sure, lotsa recipes |to drop to DOS and run but given the damn thing is actually |written by sysinstall (albiet via weird magic in wizards.c returning hex |in structs) there really should be a way to tweak/frob from inside Unix |and modify the 1-2 bits needed to flag what the preferred booting option is. One thing you might look at is running these DOS multiboot utilities in FreeBSD inside PCEmu or DOSCMD. If the bootmanager uses the BIOS to do all its reading and writing, and if those ISRs are emulated correctly, it just might work. Caveat: Note that I haven't tried this nor heard of anyone that has (...but now that the thought's occurred to me, I'll put it on my list :-). I'd definitely try this first with a small file hard disk image inside a UFS (when not running as root and with the normal, restricting permissions on your /dev files), but if it appears to work successfully, if your system is backed up, and if you don't mind living on the edge, point C: at your raw wd0 or sd0 and give it a shot. (I'm Ccing emulation because I really don't know much about doscmd or pcemu's capabilities and limitations -- just started working with them a few days ago ... so please allow time for some of the experts to follow-up before trying this). Randall Hopper From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 04:58:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA18879 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA18874 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 04:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id VAA23819 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:57:02 +1000 (EST) To: Bruce Evans cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:30:42 +1000." <199708061130.VAA15302@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:57:00 +1000 Message-ID: <23816.870868620@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I applied them, made a kernel and ran bonnie single user under each on a fujitsu 1.2Gb drive. here is the outcomes: -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU p100-no3 20 2285 63.1 2715 11.0 2528 19.1 3820 96.5 36465 100.1 825.4 22.9 p100-no3 20 2340 65.6 2748 11.1 2459 17.5 3830 96.3 36437 100.0 860.8 23.0 p100-no3 20 2378 63.4 4863 18.8 5076 29.2 3956 99.1 36521 100.1 781.8 21.4 p100-no3 20 2462 65.3 4666 18.1 5384 33.6 3949 99.1 36485 100.1 788.5 21.6 p100+32 20 2879 77.9 6762 24.7 6655 39.8 3842 96.4 29165 100.0 798.9 22.6 p100+32 20 2900 78.9 5961 25.5 7216 42.6 3969 99.2 29109 98.9 789.9 23.0 p100+32 20 2821 77.7 4594 19.2 4592 29.8 3838 95.8 28799 99.9 809.3 23.7 p100+32 20 2821 78.2 4589 20.8 4607 27.2 3828 96.1 28850 100.0 784.8 23.8 no3 is no flags. +32 is with flags 80ff. Interesting that while per-char and sequential block output had slight improvement, input gets marginally worse for flagged disk! I'd say that on this evidence, the 32-bit and multi-sector transfers are of marginal benefit. The above doesn't really show clear wins. Does it? Asus MB 512k with P100, 32Mb non-EDO ram. -George From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 05:06:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA19372 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA19362 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id WAA23946 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:05:00 +1000 (EST) To: Bruce Evans cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 21:30:42 +1000." <199708061130.VAA15302@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:04:59 +1000 Message-ID: <23944.870869099@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk oops. a 32Mb system and bonnie on 20mb files, thats not flushing potential buffer cache size and gives inflated readings. somebody of large brain tell me how big to make the testfile and I will redo this to prove ?nothing? ?something? -George From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 06:20:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23758 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 06:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA23737; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 06:20:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from msmith@localhost) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA08867; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:50:02 +0930 (CST) From: Michael Smith Message-Id: <199708061320.WAA08867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-Reply-To: <19970806075054.63235@ct.picker.com> from Randall Hopper at "Aug 6, 97 07:50:54 am" To: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:50:01 +0930 (CST) Cc: ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG, emulation@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Randall Hopper stands accused of saying: > George Michaelson: > |So how can you tune the bootmgrs from within FreeBSD? Sure, lotsa recipes "tune"? Can you be more specific? > One thing you might look at is running these DOS multiboot utilities in > FreeBSD inside PCEmu or DOSCMD. If the bootmanager uses the BIOS to do all > its reading and writing, and if those ISRs are emulated correctly, it just > might work. For obvious reasons, none of the DOS emulators allow the emulated process direct access to the disk. ie. No, it won't work. ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer msmith@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] Genesis Software genesis@gsoft.com.au [[ ]] High-speed data acquisition and (GSM mobile) 0411-222-496 [[ ]] realtime instrument control. (ph) +61-8-8267-3493 [[ ]] Unix hardware collector. "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick [[ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 07:02:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26984 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA26934 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18865; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:55:31 +0400 (MSD) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:55:30 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: FreeBSD-current Subject: hub.freebsd.org sendmail problem Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I recent days sendmail got following replies from hub too often: NOQUEUE: timeout waiting for input from hub.freebsd.org. during client QUIT RAA18674: timeout waiting for input from hub.freebsd.org. during client EHLO First example can cause mail duplication and second deivery delays. What happens there? Ssh connections f.e. appearse to be as fast as was before. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 08:00:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA00733 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from papagaio.voga.com.br (papagaio.voga.com.br [200.239.39.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA00727 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by papagaio.voga.com.br(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.06 (346.7 3-18-1997)) id 032564EB.0052B707 ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:03:28 -0300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: VOGA From: "Daniel Sobral" To: tom@uniserve.com Message-ID: <032564EB.00522830.01@papagaio.voga.com.br> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:59:52 -0300 Subject: Re: Fetchmail Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've looked at fetchmail, but never used it. It would just be a waste > of space for me. Well, there are many daemons and network tools that come with FreeBSD, even though most computers, client and server, do not use them. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 09:06:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA04062 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04055 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA09002; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:05:46 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:05:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708061605.KAA09002@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Alex Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ex0, eg0. Don't know what these are, but they aren't related to LINT_PCCARD_HACK. > The ambiguous wording on this options leaves me wonderin what device > it's attached to LINT_PCCARD_HACK, and if it's really needed. LINT_PCCARD_HACK is used so that both the older PCCARD drivers(if_zp, if_ze) and the newer devices can both be compiled in the kernel. They both provide the same functionality, so both can't be actual *run* at the same time, but because LINT is the kernel with as much of everything as possible, Bruce had me add the option so both could be compiled in at the same time. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 10:11:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA07845 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.2.228.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07831; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bde@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.5/8.6.9) id DAA08697; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:07:13 +1000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:07:13 +1000 From: Bruce Evans Message-Id: <199708061707.DAA08697@godzilla.zeta.org.au> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: ext2fs currupts numdirtybuffers Cc: dyson@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ext2fs doesn't maintain the numdirtybuffers count properly. This makes all file systems very slow (throughput is reduced 10 times here). Bruce diff -c2 ext2_linux_ialloc.c~ ext2_linux_ialloc.c *** ext2_linux_ialloc.c~ Tue Aug 5 02:14:14 1997 --- ext2_linux_ialloc.c Thu Aug 7 02:42:00 1997 *************** *** 54,59 **** void mark_buffer_dirty(struct buf *bh) { ! numdirtybuffers++; ! bh->b_flags |= B_DELWRI; bh->b_flags &= ~(B_READ | B_ERROR); } --- 54,61 ---- void mark_buffer_dirty(struct buf *bh) { ! if (!(bh->b_flags & B_DELWRI)) { ! numdirtybuffers++; ! bh->b_flags |= B_DELWRI; ! } bh->b_flags &= ~(B_READ | B_ERROR); } From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 10:34:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08828 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-22.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08821 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00283; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:34:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Nate Williams cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? In-Reply-To: <199708061605.KAA09002@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > ex0, eg0. > > Don't know what these are, but they aren't related to LINT_PCCARD_HACK. Found out by looking in the manpages, I still think that at least a cursory description of them should be in LINT, if the rest have descriptions. > LINT_PCCARD_HACK is used so that both the older PCCARD drivers(if_zp, > if_ze) and the newer devices can both be compiled in the kernel. They > both provide the same functionality, so both can't be actual *run* at > the same time, but because LINT is the kernel with as much of everything > as possible, Bruce had me add the option so both could be compiled in at > the same time. Oh, the National Semiconductor/IBM pc card is the same as the 3Com one? - alex From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 11:16:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10858 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA10853; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA14421; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:10:58 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708061810.LAA14421@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:10:58 -0700 (MST) Cc: ARahimi@e-planet.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd@atipa.com, sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708060910.SAA06556@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at Aug 6, 97 06:40:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >It would also be foolish to leap in in a hurry and waste scarce > > >developer resources on the next fad. > > > > Not so if every major manufacturer is looking at USB and if you're > > intereseted in staying competitive. > > This isn't obvious though. Where are all the USB peripherals? Specifically, when will Logitech sell me a USB mouse? When will KeyTronic sell me a USB keyboard? > Well, USB ports have been a selling point on a lot of systems here, > but most of the motherboards that ship with it come with mini-8 DIN > connectors rather than the "real" USB connector. Well, that's it, then. The standard is doomed. There is already going to be a need for differential cable connectors. Might as well scrap the damn thing. Anyone wonder why IDE sells at all, even though SCSI is so obviously technically superior? 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 11:27:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11471 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA11464; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA14457; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:23:27 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708061823.LAA14457@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:23:27 -0700 (MST) Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd@atipa.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Alex" at Aug 5, 97 07:40:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Michael Smith wrote: > > > DVD CD-ROMs and hardware decoders > > > > How are they different from "normal" CD-ROMs? > > I have no idea, however Memphis has a whole set of drivers specific for > DVD stuff and a whole bug section. DVD's require more hardware because they can hold a significantly larger amount of information. I believe you can burn a "short" DVD in a normal CD burner, and then pretend it's a DVD in oly 1/3 of the DVD drives out there. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 11:28:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA11559 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA11536 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA14472; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:25:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708061825.LAA14472@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:25:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Alex" at Aug 6, 97 01:16:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > IMO, USB is too limited in bandwidth. I wish the "powers that be" > > would skip it and move onto Firewire (IEEE 1394). > > I haven't followed the two standards closely at all, however all I know is > that USB seems to be poppin up on more motherboards now for better or for > worse. With the connector compatability problems, it's going to be about as popular as SCSI, regardless of it's technical merits. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 12:06:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13372 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.tamis.com (tamis.com [206.24.116.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13338; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daveh@localhost) by sage.tamis.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA11365; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:04:31 -0700 (PDT) From: David Holloway To: Terry Lambert cc: Michael Smith , ARahimi@e-planet.com, freebsd@atipa.com, sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-Reply-To: <199708061810.LAA14421@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk they will first sell/make Dell and Compaq a USB mouse and keyboard... -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3i mQBtAzNlZLYAAAEDAMgNdZzjQLVUlL2iYYC5LXU7hGjB+NB6BPL5OyFM7/iAhhIo Z/u6VCQ9I3ly8c9kYwDcKoFCwn2qmEOFjiCDHdeGoUShtUD3UASm9j0yVlpUrzpS 8i8Rz9Ug1R1YtC9oEQAFEbQfRGF2aWQgSG9sbG93YXk8ZGF2ZWhAdGFtaXMuY29t PokAdQMFEDNlZLYg1R1YtC9oEQEBRJQC/3B3/CUirR2zTi/jxkU8vA1UtCiZXH1x oaUrSpeH3YDbV7zIRNBoIIgtncPgySACdH8+ikLAegfkImcYYqSDtu+y1qslYIAL XzTX9Wk6zE1k0JEPMkkKu8uLhx3Lk7Uscw== =8hwm -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >It would also be foolish to leap in in a hurry and waste scarce > > > >developer resources on the next fad. > > > > > > Not so if every major manufacturer is looking at USB and if you're > > > intereseted in staying competitive. > > > > This isn't obvious though. Where are all the USB peripherals? > > Specifically, when will Logitech sell me a USB mouse? When will > KeyTronic sell me a USB keyboard? > > > > Well, USB ports have been a selling point on a lot of systems here, > > but most of the motherboards that ship with it come with mini-8 DIN > > connectors rather than the "real" USB connector. > > Well, that's it, then. The standard is doomed. There is already > going to be a need for differential cable connectors. Might as > well scrap the damn thing. Anyone wonder why IDE sells at all, > even though SCSI is so obviously technically superior? 8-(. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 12:37:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA14903 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14882 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10012; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:36:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:36:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708061936.NAA10012@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Alex Cc: Nate Williams , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? In-Reply-To: References: <199708061605.KAA09002@rocky.mt.sri.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > LINT_PCCARD_HACK is used so that both the older PCCARD drivers(if_zp, > > if_ze) and the newer devices can both be compiled in the kernel. They > > both provide the same functionality, so both can't be actual *run* at > > the same time, but because LINT is the kernel with as much of everything > > as possible, Bruce had me add the option so both could be compiled in at > > the same time. > > Oh, the National Semiconductor/IBM pc card is the same as the 3Com one? No, there are two drivers, if_zp, and if_ze. Nate From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 13:01:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA16084 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (eivind@bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16075 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA15673; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:59:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:59:27 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199708061959.VAA15673@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Garrett Wollman CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Garrett Wollman's message of Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Philippe Charnier References: <199708051358.JAA16647@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I'd like to propose a public round of thanks to Philippe for going > through all the utilities and fixing their man pages, usage functions, > and whatnot to conform to the standards. It's this sort of scut-work > that most of us try to avoid, and I'm glad to see someone willing to > do it anyway... > > Good going, Philippe! Applause! Eivind. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 13:18:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA17089 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17084 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.136]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-32322U5000L100S10000) with ESMTP id AAA135; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:08:27 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA00563; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:18:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970806161810.08502@scsn.net> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:18:10 -0400 From: "Donald J. Maddox" To: George Michaelson Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net References: <199708061130.VAA15302@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <23816.870868620@connect.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <23816.870868620@connect.com.au>; from George Michaelson on Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 09:57:00PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 09:57:00PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > > no3 is no flags. +32 is with flags 80ff. ^^^^^^^^^^ If you want to enable DMA, flags needs to be 0xa0ff. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 13:48:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA18813 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-17.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA18807 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA00294 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:48:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:48:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: el(4) typo Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just noticed a small typo in the man page for the 3c501 network card. "they allows inexpensive access" afaik should be "they allow inexpensive access". Not a life threatening deal, still just thought I might bring it to the attention of those who fix these kinds of things. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 13:58:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19417 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.rice.edu (cs.rice.edu [128.42.1.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19387 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acpc.cs.rice.edu (acpc.cs.rice.edu [128.42.1.67]) by cs.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA22128 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:57:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from acpc.cs.rice.edu (localhost.cs.rice.edu [127.0.0.1]) by acpc.cs.rice.edu (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27718 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:57:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708062057.PAA27718@acpc.cs.rice.edu> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: current-digest V3 #125 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 12:37:16 PDT." <199708061937.MAA14912@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 15:57:10 -0500 From: Alan Cox Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unfortunately - in fft the beginning has take it - I want it back > type of ownership messages. That's not so bad. They're small messages. And, it's only going to happen once per page. If we were moving a whole copy of the page, then I would be feeling queasy about it. > IS - we have a problem. I'll look into this some more. > The only fix that I can see is for the consumer, when it discovers > that it does not need ownership to pass it back (may be too late > at that point). My inclination is to pull it back from the producer side. It fits into the existing framework that way. Unless we later piggyback it on some other message from the consumer, we won't really save ourselves anything by pushing. One note on the code that you sent me. In the page request code, it's not kosher to change the "page->writer" field. It's onlt supposed to be modified by interval create and interval incorporate. Alan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 14:05:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19867 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-17.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19844 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA00316 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:05:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-Reply-To: <19970806161810.08502@scsn.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Donald J. Maddox wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 09:57:00PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > > > > > no3 is no flags. +32 is with flags 80ff. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > > If you want to enable DMA, flags needs to be 0xa0ff. With all this talk about adding hex numbers, where could I find a small command line hex calculator? or would bash/sh/tcsh/csh/ksh/ash have one built in? - alex From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 14:35:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA21453 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mars.aros.net (mars.aros.net [207.173.16.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21423; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.aros.net (root@shell.aros.net [207.173.16.19]) by mars.aros.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA25519; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:34:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from shell.aros.net (msanders@localhost.aros.net [127.0.0.1]) by shell.aros.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29374; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:35:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708062135.PAA29374@shell.aros.net> X-Attribution: msanders To: Terry Lambert cc: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd@atipa.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:23:27 PDT." <199708061823.LAA14457@phaeton.artisoft.com> X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 15:35:30 -0600 From: "Michael K. Sanders" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708061823.LAA14457@phaeton.artisoft.com>, Terry Lambert writes: > >DVD's require more hardware because they can hold a significantly >larger amount of information. What? >I believe you can burn a "short" DVD in a normal CD burner, and >then pretend it's a DVD in oly 1/3 of the DVD drives out there. 8-(. Sorry Terry, but in a word "No". CD-Rs don't burn DVD, they burn CDs. You may be able to read that CD-R disc in a DVD-ROM drive, but that doesn't make the disc DVD. DVD uses a shorter wavelength laser than CD. It is not possible to read or write a DVD disc in a standard CD-ROM or CD-R drive. :: Mike :: From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 14:45:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA21990 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21980 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24622; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:54:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id QAA24253; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:46:48 -0500 Message-ID: <19970806164647.46100@right.PCS> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:46:47 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Alex Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc References: <19970806161810.08502@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Alex on Aug 08, 1997 at 02:05:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 08, 1997 at 02:05:02PM -0700, Alex wrote: > With all this talk about adding hex numbers, where could I find a small > command line hex calculator? or would bash/sh/tcsh/csh/ksh/ash have one > built in? Use 'dc'. Start it up, then enter 16o, 16i, to set base 16 output/input. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 14:53:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA22381 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA22376; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA18376; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:48:49 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708062148.OAA18376@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Status of USB, TX chipset, PIIX3, etc. To: msanders@aros.net (Michael K. Sanders) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:48:49 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, garbanzo@hooked.net, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, freebsd@atipa.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708062135.PAA29374@shell.aros.net> from "Michael K. Sanders" at Aug 6, 97 03:35:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I believe you can burn a "short" DVD in a normal CD burner, and > >then pretend it's a DVD in oly 1/3 of the DVD drives out there. 8-(. > > Sorry Terry, but in a word "No". > > CD-Rs don't burn DVD, they burn CDs. You may be able to read that CD-R > disc in a DVD-ROM drive, but that doesn't make the disc DVD. > > DVD uses a shorter wavelength laser than CD. It is not possible to > read or write a DVD disc in a standard CD-ROM or CD-R drive. You can burn a CD-ROM (NOT DVD) with a CD ROM burner, and have it contain a "short" DVD FS. Most (2/3's) of DVD players will believe it is a regular CD-ROM, not a DVD. Several DVD CDROM drives, however, recognize DVD's based on their format, not their recording technology (on the theory that software will want to be written to DVD's in a non-DVD revording format to make them "long" CD-ROMs). Unfortunately, the majority do not. The point is not to make a DVD, but to make a disk which the drive will interpret as a "short" DVD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 14:55:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA22513 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA22492 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id OAA10756; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma010754; Wed Aug 6 14:54:04 1997 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA24989; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:54:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199708062154.OAA24989@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc In-Reply-To: from Alex at "Aug 6, 97 02:05:02 pm" To: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Donald J. Maddox wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 09:57:00PM +1000, George Michaelson wrote: > > > > > > > > no3 is no flags. +32 is with flags 80ff. > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > > > If you want to enable DMA, flags needs to be 0xa0ff. > > With all this talk about adding hex numbers, where could I find a small > command line hex calculator? or would bash/sh/tcsh/csh/ksh/ash have one > built in? man dc(1) .. E.g.: $ dc 16 o 16 i ABCD EF00 + p 19ACD ^D Make sure you use upper case hex letters. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 15:22:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24112 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24089; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id IAA27543 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:21:38 +1000 (EST) To: Michael Smith cc: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper), current@freebsd.org, emulation@freebsd.org Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 22:50:01 +0930." <199708061320.WAA08867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 08:21:37 +1000 Message-ID: <27541.870906097@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Randall Hopper stands accused of saying: > George Michaelson: > |So how can you tune the bootmgrs from within FreeBSD? Sure, lotsa recipes "tune"? Can you be more specific? Four things: 1) at next boot, which of the menu of boot choices is to be the default ie under reboot, do you boot back into THIS unix or into W95, DOS, NetBSD, Linux etc 2) change the flag marking if the MBR is to be updated to reflect the current boot choice as the live preference. This is different to the above which states WHICH secondary boot is to be used, this marks if any alternate boot is actually taken because of keyboard selection, that the selection becomes the active default boot 3) change the textual stringprompts against each option 4) change which bootable partitions appear in the menu of choices -George From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 15:40:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25026 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25013 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA11829; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA07110; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:41:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:41:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Eivind Eklund cc: Garrett Wollman , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Philippe Charnier In-Reply-To: <199708061959.VAA15673@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Garrett Wollman wrote: > I'd like to propose a public round of thanks to Philippe for > going through all the utilities and fixing their man pages, > usage functions, and whatnot to conform to the standards. It's > this sort of scut-work that most of us try to avoid, and I'm > glad to see someone willing to do it anyway... Here! Let's give him a big hand! ___ ____ ___ ____( \ .-' `-. / )____ (____ \_____ / (O O) \ _____/ ____) (____ `-----( ) )-----' ____) (____ _____________\ .____. /_____________ ____) (______/ `-.____.-' \______) [Ok, so it was the best I could find and steal on short notice :] From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 15:55:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25831 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax1-6.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.13.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA25803; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA00801; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:54:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:54:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: George Michaelson cc: Michael Smith , Randall Hopper , current@FreeBSD.ORG, emulation@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-Reply-To: <27541.870906097@connect.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Michaelson wrote: > Four things: > > 1) at next boot, which of the menu of boot choices is to be the > default ie under reboot, do you boot back into THIS unix or into > W95, DOS, NetBSD, Linux etc > > 2) change the flag marking if the MBR is to be updated to reflect > the current boot choice as the live preference. This is different > to the above which states WHICH secondary boot is to be used, this > marks if any alternate boot is actually taken because of keyboard > selection, that the selection becomes the active default boot > > 3) change the textual stringprompts against each option > > 4) change which bootable partitions appear in the menu of choices > > -George Speaking of the boot manager, I noticed that when I installed Solaris, then BSD's manager, it detected the Solaris partitions partially correctly as type "Linux" (Solaris uses the same id type as Linux Swap), however my Fat32 partitions and Linux Native partitions show up as "???". Go figure - alex From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 15:56:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA25907 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA25896 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wwEzt-000593-00; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:56:05 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: canonical issue wrt DMA & wd/wdc Cc: Alex , current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 16:46:47 CDT." <19970806164647.46100@right.PCS> References: <19970806164647.46100@right.PCS> <19970806161810.08502@scsn.net> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 16:56:05 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <19970806164647.46100@right.PCS> Jonathan Lemon writes: : Use 'dc'. Start it up, then enter 16o, 16i, to set base 16 output/input. or echo 1234 | awk '{printf"0x%x 0%o %d\n", $1, $1, $1;}' :-) Warner From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 16:07:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26370 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helmholtz.salk.edu (helmholtz.salk.edu [198.202.70.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26346; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pauling.salk.edu (pauling [198.202.70.108]) by helmholtz.salk.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19114; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:06:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Bartol To: George Michaelson cc: Michael Smith , Randall Hopper , current@FreeBSD.ORG, emulation@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-Reply-To: <27541.870906097@connect.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Would it be too weird to do the following quick and dirty thing completely without the need for any documentation on which boot manager you're using: 1) setup your boot manager from dos or wherever necessary to do the initial install. 2) boot into freebsd or linux and use dd to read the boot blocks off the disk and into a file. 3) boot back into whatever environment can be used to "tune" your boot manager and do whatever "tuning" strikes your fancy. 4) boot back into freebsd or linux and use dd to read the modified boot blocks into a second file. 5) use diff or cmp to find out what effect your "tuning" had on the boot blocks and try to deduce the logic (i.e. reverse engineer) the mods. Hopefully this will not be very complicated. 6) you might then be able to use patch on your snap-shot copy of the boot blocks to "tune" it from within freebsd of linux. If you're really confident of your work you can then use dd to write your "tuned" boot blocks back to where they belong. Just a thought... Tom On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Michaelson wrote: > Four things: > > 1) at next boot, which of the menu of boot choices is to be the > default ie under reboot, do you boot back into THIS unix or into > W95, DOS, NetBSD, Linux etc > > 2) change the flag marking if the MBR is to be updated to reflect > the current boot choice as the live preference. This is different > to the above which states WHICH secondary boot is to be used, this > marks if any alternate boot is actually taken because of keyboard > selection, that the selection becomes the active default boot > > 3) change the textual stringprompts against each option > > 4) change which bootable partitions appear in the menu of choices > > -George > From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 16:10:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26559 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26554 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id JAA27993 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:09:19 +1000 (EST) To: Tom Bartol , current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 16:06:09 MST." Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:09:18 +1000 Message-ID: <27991.870908958@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [edited down the headers] Would it be too weird to do the following quick and dirty thing completely without the need for any documentation on which boot manager you're using: I also had this idea. I suspect that for the critical purpose: writing back that the current opsys is to be rebooted to irrespective of what tunings the manager has, this would do. But there are lots of reasons why its a bad move. its another critical path to go wrong if you change the boot manager in unexpected ways. If the damn thing is installed and hosted from inside FreeBSD, then changes are likely to be made in ways which are self-consistent. I think Jordans comments stand: don't hold your breath. -George From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 16:27:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA27572 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from helmholtz.salk.edu (helmholtz.salk.edu [198.202.70.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA27565 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pauling.salk.edu (pauling [198.202.70.108]) by helmholtz.salk.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19478; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:27:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Bartol To: George Michaelson cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-Reply-To: <27991.870908958@connect.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Michaelson wrote: > I also had this idea. I suspect that for the critical purpose: writing back > that the current opsys is to be rebooted to irrespective of what tunings > the manager has, this would do. > > But there are lots of reasons why its a bad move. its another critical path > to go wrong if you change the boot manager in unexpected ways. If the damn > thing is installed and hosted from inside FreeBSD, then changes are likely > to be made in ways which are self-consistent. Yes, this is certainly a big concern. If your master copy of the boot blocks lives inside FreeBSD then all will be well but then this would not be convenient from other environments... And of course whatever randomly chosen boot manager you happen to be using won't generally be tunable from any randomly chosen OS anyway, nor will there generally exist such powerful low-level I/O tools like dd. If your goal is to able to tune your boot blocks from "wherever you are" you're going to have to hold your breath for lots of different OSes to get it together (i.e. it ain't gonna happen). At least with FreeBSD, the tools exist now to do this sort of thing, even if you do have to roll your own. :-) > > I think Jordans comments stand: don't hold your breath. > > -George > And don't bang your head against the wall either... Just climb over it! Tom From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 19:04:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA09360 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from whqvax.picker.com (whqvax.picker.com [144.54.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA09343; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ct.picker.com by whqvax.picker.com with SMTP; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from elmer.ct.picker.com ([144.54.57.34]) by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00945; Wed, 6 Aug 97 22:03:06 EDT Received: by elmer.ct.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA29573; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:00:32 -0400 Message-Id: <19970806220031.07191@ct.picker.com> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:00:31 -0400 From: Randall Hopper To: Michael Smith Cc: ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG, emulation@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fun with DOSCMD (was Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD) References: <19970806075054.63235@ct.picker.com> <199708061320.WAA08867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199708061320.WAA08867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>; from Michael Smith on Wed, Aug 06, 1997 at 10:50:01PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Michael Smith: |Randall Hopper stands accused of saying: |> George Michaelson: |> |So how can you tune the bootmgrs from within FreeBSD? Sure, lotsa recipes | |> One thing you might look at is running these DOS multiboot utilities in |> FreeBSD inside PCEmu or DOSCMD. If the bootmanager uses the BIOS to do all |> its reading and writing, and if those ISRs are emulated correctly, it just |> might work. | |For obvious reasons, none of the DOS emulators allow the emulated |process direct access to the disk. ie. No, it won't work. Hmmm, well with doscmd tonight and "assign hard /dev/rwd0 621 64 63" doscmd happily booted my OS/BS2.0 boot manager right off my primary hard drive's abs sectors 1-5. I was impressed! (/dev/rwd0 set read-only of course :-) ...and it kept on going. Upon selecting the DOS/Windoze option, it chained right into the DOS 6.2 multiboot menu, and then after selecting my "Previous Version of MS-DOS" option to get me into cmd-line DOS, and bypassing the CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT files, and specifying the path to COMMAND.COM -- hey! I was at the DOS prompt browsin' around my hard drive using my hard drive's DOS! Pressing my luck, I then brought up my DOS hard disk manager -- and it worked. Then I ran WordStar 4.0, which I use on occasion, started editing a document on A: (mapped to fd0), and so far so good. The fun on that boot stopped when I tried to type the first character in the document and doscmd said: pushl %eax unsupported instruction (PRESS ANY MOUSE BUTTON TO exit) Man that's cool! Fun as any video game I've played lately. All inside FreeBSD and amazingly fast. Guess that's the gain for emulating just the environment, and not the CPU too. Nice work guys! Now to try out more of the DOS programs I flip over to use every so often. Would love to be able to run all these in FreeBSD. I also need to figure out how to run doscmd in gdb. I rebuild libkvm and gdb for the new kernel, so that's done. But I'm not sure how to "hook in" and set breakpoints inside doscmd.kernel after its read and control is transfered to it by doscmd. I played with the .gdbinit in the pkg but no luck. Randall Hopper From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 19:45:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA11385 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA11380 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jbarrm@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id WAA28132 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:45:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Barry Masterson To: FreeBSD-current Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX In-Reply-To: <688.870590262@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > The reason I'm asking, is that while 3.3 runs fine on this system, > > the XF86_SVGA server fails to restart after the first 'startx' > > session is closed on a freshly booted system. (running startx > > a second time results on a frozen keyboard and a blank screen). > A curious development. In order to track down a SIG11 fault I was having with ImageMagick's "convert" & large photo_cd files on 2.2.2, I backed up everything and did a clean install of 2.2.1. While I was at it, I restored the X33-src files, and built XFree86-33 (free of any of the authors patches) on the 2.2.1 system. So far the XF86_SVGA 'no second restart' problem has not occured. Barry Masterson jbarrm@panix.com >--->--->--->--->---> FreeBSD 2.2.1-R <---<---<---<---<---< From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 20:18:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA12852 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mantar.slip.netcom.com (mantar.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12846 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dual (DUAL [192.187.167.136]) by mantar.slip.netcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00867; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970806201754.00f71c00@mantar.slip.netcom.com> X-Sender: guest@mantar.slip.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:17:54 -0700 To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au From: Manfred Antar Subject: Re: Current is currently really a mess (was: Re: Tk/Tcl broken(?)) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, helbig@MX.BA-Stuttgart.De, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708050832.BAA15988@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> References: <199708050759.RAA27445@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 01:32 AM 8/5/97 -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > * I don't want to sound like I'm coming down on anyone here, but if the > * ports stuff was set up to be less intertwingled with the base system, > * this wouldn't be so much of an issue. > >Well, that is the crux of the problem. I am currently working on >that. (The shared library is the largest problem here...the rest is >not that hard if we choose to ignore tcl in the base system.) > >Satoshi > Not to change the subject but i have been getting many copies of this and other messages from the past two days. i have un subscribed from freebsd-current but they still keep coming.The messages are dated 8/5/97 and 8/6/97.i got home this afternoon and had about 100 all duplicates. Any ideas Thanks Manfred |==============================| | mantar@netcom.com | | Ph. (415) 681-6235 | |==============================| From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 23:17:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA21000 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail0.iij.ad.jp (mail0.iij.ad.jp [202.232.2.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20992 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:17:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp2.iij.ad.jp (uucp2.iij.ad.jp [202.232.2.202]) by mail0.iij.ad.jp (8.8.5+2.7Wbeta5/3.5Wpl4-MAIL) with SMTP id PAA09730 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:17:51 +0900 (JST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by uucp2.iij.ad.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.3W9-UUCP) with UUCP id PAA10188 for current@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:17:51 +0900 Received: from tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp [192.168.1.2]) by tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (8.8.6/3.4W2-uucp) with ESMTP id KAA03037 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:41:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (localhost.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp [127.0.0.1]) by tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (8.8.6/3.4Wnomx) with SMTP id KAA02082 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:41:37 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199708070141.KAA02082@tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp> X-Authentication-Warning: tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp: localhost.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Q) CVSup operation Reply-To: ken@tydfam.iijnet.or.jp X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.2 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 10:41:36 +0900 From: Takeshi Yamada Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am maintaining cvs source tree using cvsup, but since July 20th, I only receive the following message and cannot update the source. ( Tried several mirror sites, but it was the same.) What is wrong with me? I am using FreeBSD-current(smp) from 7/20 source tree. ----------------- Log ----------------- # {572} cvsup -g -L 2 supfile.cvsup Parsing supfile "supfile.cvsup" Looking up address of cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org Connecting to cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org Connected to cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org Server software version: REL_15_1 Negotiating file attribute support Exchanging collection information Establishing active-mode data connection Timed out waiting for connection from server Will retry at 11:08:42 --------------------------------------- ----------- supfile.cvsup ----------- *default host=cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org *default prefix=/home/SRC/FreeBSD-CVS *default base=/usr/local/etc/cvsup *default release=cvs delete use-rel-suffix compress src-all ports-all -------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Wed Aug 6 23:36:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA22381 for current-outgoing; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22376 for ; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.6/8.8.6) id WAA10903; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:54:41 +0200 (SAT) Message-ID: <19970806225439.18362@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:54:39 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Satoshi Asami Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More bogons in Makefiles... References: <19894.870331035@time.cdrom.com> <199707311007.DAA14325@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199707311007.DAA14325@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU>; from Satoshi Asami on Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 03:07:23AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Finally got around to this... On Thu, Jul 31, 1997 at 03:07:23AM -0700, Satoshi Asami wrote: > * Anyway, that's all for now. I'm still trying to understand make, *.mk and > * the Makefiles. > > You know, if you really want to do some work here, try calling the > source tree something else than "/usr/src" and try to build world from > there. You will be surprised to see just how many places that string > is hard-coded in. Only two places broke a 'make world' although it is hard coded in a number of source files and man pages. *** ./lkm/atapi/Makefile.orig Mon Aug 4 22:20:42 1997 --- ./lkm/atapi/Makefile Wed Aug 6 16:31:08 1997 *************** *** 29,35 **** echo "#define ATAPI 1"> opt_atapi.h .c.o: ! -@$(LN) /sys/i386/include machine $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -c $< -@rm -f machine --- 29,35 ---- echo "#define ATAPI 1"> opt_atapi.h .c.o: ! -@$(LN) ${.CURDIR}/../../sys/i386/include machine $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -c $< -@rm -f machine *** ./lkm/wcd/Makefile.orig Mon Aug 4 23:02:36 1997 --- ./lkm/wcd/Makefile Wed Aug 6 16:31:09 1997 *************** *** 25,31 **** echo "#define ATAPI 1"> opt_atapi.h .c.o: ! -@$(LN) /sys/i386/include machine $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -c $< -@rm -f machine --- 25,31 ---- echo "#define ATAPI 1"> opt_atapi.h .c.o: ! -@$(LN) ${.CURDIR}/../../sys/i386/include machine $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -c $< -@rm -f machine Both of these were because 'make distrib-dirs' links /sys -> usr/src/sys instead of to ${.CURDIR}../sys (etc/Makefile line 129). I'm not sure if the correct behaviour is to always link to /usr/src, because this might be the "real" src tree for the machine, while the current src tree is meant for other machines... either way, I think /sys shouldn't be used at all. -Jeremy -- .sig.gz From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 00:13:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA24304 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dog.farm.org (gw-serial2.farm.org [207.111.140.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA24119 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dk@localhost) by dog.farm.org (8.7.5/dk#3) id XAA16879; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:01:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Dmitry Kohmanyuk Message-Id: <199708070601.XAA16879@dog.farm.org> To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND Newsgroups: cs-monolit.gated.lists.freebsd.current Organization: FARM Computing Association Reply-To: dk+@ua.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (apologies for topic drift on this mailing list) In article <199708051639.JAA06341@phaeton.artisoft.com> you wrote: > > > I can live with my secondary MX queueing up mail. > > > > > > I can *not* live with my mail being refused for the lack of a > > > correctly named account at the primary MX's IP address. (re your multiple booting machine) Just don't use the development/experimental machine as your production mail system. Get a POP account if you don't have any other boxes ;-) > > You're already stuck with that due to caching behavior. > My primary MX is on the other side of a firewall. > Outside deliveries to my primary MX all fail. They are delivered > to a gateway machine -- my secondary MX. don't do that. Do not advertise an MX that nobody can use, thus creating delays for any mail reaching you. Instead, use a splitted DNS scheme (one name server for outside, on firewall machine, one inside; use inside name server in resolv.conf on firewall machine, so it would get correct internal MX records). In external DNS, have only 1 MX record (well, better more, but all reachable). In internal, have everything in external plus additional (`real') MXes. Alternatively, use one MX, single DNS and mailertable on your SMTP host. > The secondary MX contains the DNS records for the target of the > CNAME, and is the primary for the domain in which it is located. are you talking about MX pointing to CNAME or NS pointing to CNAME? > As far as DNS is concerned, a machine is available as a secondary, > and is looked up through the firewall machine, which knows the > target by multiple "alias" addresses. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 00:44:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA25469 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@[129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA25464 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA23421 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:10:13 +0200 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id JAA05005 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:44:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id JAA10007; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:43:42 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970807094341.20575@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:43:41 +0200 From: Philippe Regnauld To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Ipfilter in -current Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: Main Body X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey all, I've seen ipfilter in /usr/src for quite a while -- is it usable, let alone compilable ? -- -- Phil -[ Philippe Regnauld / Systems Administrator / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk ]- -[ Location.: +55.4N +11.3E PGP Key: finger regnauld@hotel.prosa.dk ]- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 02:14:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA29095 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca33-17.ix.netcom.com [199.35.209.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA29089 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.6/8.6.9) id CAA01179; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708070914.CAA01179@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: hoek@hwcn.org CC: perhaps@yes.no, wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Tim Vanderhoek on Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:41:06 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Philippe Charnier From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * From: Tim Vanderhoek * ___ ____ ___ * ____( \ .-' `-. / )____ * (____ \_____ / (O O) \ _____/ ____) * (____ `-----( ) )-----' ____) * (____ _____________\ .____. /_____________ ____) * (______/ `-.____.-' \______) Bwahahaha! I didn't know you were bald, Tim. ;) By the way, let me thank you too, Philippe! Satoshi From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 03:56:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA02512 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02507 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au id UAA03384 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6 for current@FreeBSD.ORG); Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:55:46 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:55:46 +1000 (EST) From: George Michaelson Message-ID: <199708071055.UAA03384@broon.off.connect.com.au> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok so news at 11 it isn't but I thought I'd add some figures to the pot. single-user 32Mb P100, fuji 1.2Gb drive, Asus mainboard with 512k cache. looks like 20%+ speedup across the board. Definately worth it. next stop, DMA. -George -------Sequential Output-------- ---Sequential Input-- --Random-- -Per Char- --Block--- -Rewrite-- -Per Char- --Block--- --Seeks--- Machine MB K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU K/sec %CPU /sec %CPU p100no 100 2377 64.9 4024 16.7 1392 9.0 2106 54.6 3785 16.0 65.7 2.6 p100no 100 2398 66.2 3943 16.3 1389 9.0 2158 55.2 3660 16.6 64.6 2.6 p100no 100 2406 65.1 4010 16.8 1379 8.8 2109 54.3 3732 15.3 63.8 2.9 p100no 100 2399 65.2 3989 16.5 1380 8.9 2154 55.8 3717 15.5 65.3 2.6 p100no 100 2404 66.0 3964 17.3 1355 9.2 2127 54.7 3692 15.8 64.4 2.6 p100-32 100 2806 77.6 4671 20.7 1511 10.1 2583 66.1 4916 15.5 66.2 2.9 p100-32 100 2786 76.5 4700 18.7 1520 10.1 2628 67.9 4937 15.5 66.0 2.9 p100-32 100 2811 77.7 4700 19.6 1507 9.7 2558 65.1 4756 15.7 65.9 2.9 p100-32 100 2780 76.7 4683 19.0 1530 10.2 2563 66.0 4631 14.9 65.4 2.9 p100-32 100 2818 77.5 4705 19.5 1525 9.9 2537 65.3 4724 15.0 65.6 2.9 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 05:07:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA04405 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pahtoh.cwu.edu (root@pahtoh.cwu.edu [198.104.65.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA04400 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opus.cts.cwu.edu (skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.92.71]) by pahtoh.cwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA29961; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (skynyrd@localhost) by opus.cts.cwu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA28311; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:39:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Timmons To: ken@tydfam.iijnet.or.jp cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q) CVSup operation In-Reply-To: <199708070141.KAA02082@tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Maybe a packet filter is blocking the connection that the server is trying to make back to your machine? If you like, try connecting to cvsup.freebsd.org and drop me a line in private email with the date/time utc that you tried, and your machine name. I can tell you a little more from looking at the server side log files. CVSup's author (John Polstra) has recently added support for mulitplexed mode, which may help you if there is a firewall problem. You will want to make sure you have the most recent release of the software: ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/CVSup/cvsup-bin-15.1.tar.gz And then RTM and try: cvsup -P m -g -L 2 supfile.cvsup hope this helps, -Chris On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Takeshi Yamada wrote: > I am maintaining cvs source tree using cvsup, but since July 20th, > I only receive the following message and cannot update the source. ( > Tried several mirror sites, but it was the same.) > > What is wrong with me? > I am using FreeBSD-current(smp) from 7/20 source tree. > > ----------------- Log ----------------- > # {572} cvsup -g -L 2 supfile.cvsup > Parsing supfile "supfile.cvsup" > Looking up address of cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org > Connecting to cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org > Connected to cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org > Server software version: REL_15_1 > Negotiating file attribute support > Exchanging collection information > Establishing active-mode data connection > Timed out waiting for connection from server > Will retry at 11:08:42 > --------------------------------------- > > ----------- supfile.cvsup ----------- > *default host=cvsup.jp.FreeBSD.org > *default prefix=/home/SRC/FreeBSD-CVS > *default base=/usr/local/etc/cvsup > *default release=cvs delete use-rel-suffix compress > > src-all > ports-all > -------------------------------------- > From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 06:02:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA06507 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@[129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA06495 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA28597 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:28:08 +0200 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id PAA05519 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:02:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id PAA10626; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:01:36 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970807150135.54660@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:01:35 +0200 From: Philippe Regnauld To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Natd and 2.2.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Description: Main Body X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, How likely is it that natd can be ported to 2.2.2 ? divert(4) is there, but it obviously won't compile out of the box. Particularly, which libraries/headers would need to be imported/updated for this ? -- -- Phil -[ Philippe Regnauld / Systems Administrator / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk ]- -[ Location.: +55.4N +11.3E PGP Key: finger regnauld@hotel.prosa.dk ]- From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 08:18:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12247 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cs.iastate.edu (cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12242 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from popeye.cs.iastate.edu (popeye.cs.iastate.edu [129.186.3.4]) by cs.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA02591; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:17:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (ghelmer@localhost) by popeye.cs.iastate.edu (8.8.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA19524; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:17:56 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: popeye.cs.iastate.edu: ghelmer owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:17:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Guy Helmer To: Philippe Regnauld cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natd and 2.2.2 In-Reply-To: <19970807150135.54660@deepo.prosa.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > How likely is it that natd can be ported to 2.2.2 ? > divert(4) is there, but it obviously won't compile out of > the box. Particularly, which libraries/headers would need > to be imported/updated for this ? I've done it - here's how. I ftp'ed the natd files out of the ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src/usr.sbin/natd and directory and the libalias files out of the ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src/lib/libalias directory to a 2.2.2 machine. Then, in the libalias directory, I did a "make" and then "make install". Finally, in the natd directory, I did a "make" and then "install -c -s -o bin -g bin -m 555 natd /usr/sbin" and "install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 natd.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8" to install natd ("make install" in the natd subdirectory didn't work since I wasn't in the /usr/src/usr.sbin/natd directory). It's off and running like a charm on my friend's 2.2.2 system... Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 08:27:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12596 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12590 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wwUT3-0005y9-00; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:27:13 -0600 To: hoek@hwcn.org Subject: Re: Philippe Charnier Cc: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Aug 1997 18:41:06 EDT." References: Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 09:27:13 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message Tim Vanderhoek writes: : [Ok, so it was the best I could find and steal on short notice :] At least it wasn't "Figure 1" :-) Warner From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 08:30:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA12813 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoke.marlboro.vt.us (smoke.marlboro.vt.us [198.206.215.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12808 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 08:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cgull@localhost) by smoke.marlboro.vt.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/cgull) id LAA09568; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199708071530.LAA09568@smoke.marlboro.vt.us> From: john hood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: George Michaelson Cc: Michael Smith , rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper), current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: modifying boot mgrs FROM FREEBSD In-Reply-To: <27541.870906097@connect.com.au> References: <199708061320.WAA08867@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <27541.870906097@connect.com.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under Emacs 19.34.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk George Michaelson writes: > Four things: > > 1) at next boot, which of the menu of boot choices is to be the > default ie under reboot, do you boot back into THIS unix or into > W95, DOS, NetBSD, Linux etc > > 2) change the flag marking if the MBR is to be updated to reflect > the current boot choice as the live preference. This is different > to the above which states WHICH secondary boot is to be used, this > marks if any alternate boot is actually taken because of keyboard > selection, that the selection becomes the active default boot > > 3) change the textual stringprompts against each option > > 4) change which bootable partitions appear in the menu of choices if you just want to change the active boot partition, all this is a lot of work. 'fdisk -a' does the simple thing, and twiddles the appropriate two bits in the boot sector for you. both the standard IBM bootsector and the optional bootmanager sector offered by FreeBSD (whose name i forget) do the right thing with this. --jh -- John Hood cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us Predictably, they all eventually wandered away, rubbing their bruises and brushing mud out of their hair. Some went off to work for the ESA, launching much smaller rockets into low orbits, while others elected to sit on their front porches drinking Jim Beam from the bottle and launching bottle rockets from the empties. [Jordan Hubbard] From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 09:12:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA14978 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:12:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA14972 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22173; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:08:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:08:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Philippe Regnauld cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natd and 2.2.2 In-Reply-To: <19970807150135.54660@deepo.prosa.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > Hello, > > How likely is it that natd can be ported to 2.2.2 ? > divert(4) is there, but it obviously won't compile out of > the box. Particularly, which libraries/headers would need > to be imported/updated for this ? It does compile out of the box, because natd is already in 2.2-stable and has been there for quite some time. > -- > -- Phil > > -[ Philippe Regnauld / Systems Administrator / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk ]- > -[ Location.: +55.4N +11.3E PGP Key: finger regnauld@hotel.prosa.dk ]- > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 09:14:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA15061 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15048 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22179; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:09:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:09:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Guy Helmer cc: Philippe Regnauld , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Natd and 2.2.2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Guy Helmer wrote: > On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Philippe Regnauld wrote: > > > How likely is it that natd can be ported to 2.2.2 ? > > divert(4) is there, but it obviously won't compile out of > > the box. Particularly, which libraries/headers would need > > to be imported/updated for this ? > > I've done it - here's how. I ftp'ed the natd files out of the > ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src/usr.sbin/natd and > directory and the libalias files out of the > ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-current/src/lib/libalias > directory to a 2.2.2 machine. Then, in the libalias directory, I did a > "make" and then "make install". Finally, in the natd directory, I did a > "make" and then "install -c -s -o bin -g bin -m 555 natd /usr/sbin" and > "install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 natd.8.gz /usr/share/man/man8" to install > natd ("make install" in the natd subdirectory didn't work since I wasn't > in the /usr/src/usr.sbin/natd directory). > > It's off and running like a charm on my friend's 2.2.2 system... Or you could upgrade to 2.2-stable and get important bug fixes and natd for free. > Guy Helmer, Computer Science Graduate Student - ghelmer@cs.iastate.edu > Iowa State University http://www.cs.iastate.edu/~ghelmer > > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 12:42:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27109 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.uninet.ee (ns.uninet.ee [194.204.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA27103 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (taavi@localhost) by ns.uninet.ee (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02745 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:42:31 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:42:30 +0300 (EET DST) From: Taavi Talvik To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: kernel with symbol table.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello ! I have configred kernel with "config -g BLAAH". However, when startig up it hangs after messages: Preserving kernel symbol table... Real memory reported by BIOS != ... best regards, taavi From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 14:14:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01373 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA01367 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA23004; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:12:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708072112.OAA23004@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Moving to a more current BIND To: dk+@ua.net Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:12:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708070601.XAA16879@dog.farm.org> from "Dmitry Kohmanyuk" at Aug 6, 97 11:01:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The secondary MX contains the DNS records for the target of the > > CNAME, and is the primary for the domain in which it is located. > > are you talking about MX pointing to CNAME or NS pointing to CNAME? Here is the secondary for when the machine is booted in FreeBSD: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ; zone 'lambert.org' last serial 199609260 ; from 161.28.224.20 at Wed Apr 16 02:26:39 1997 $ORIGIN org. lambert IN SOA park.uvsc.edu. terry.lambert.org. ( 199704160 21600 3600 2419200 86400 ) IN NS park.uvsc.edu. ; Ignoring info about park.uvsc.edu, not in zone lambert.org. ; $ORIGIN uvsc.edu. ; park 566122 IN A 161.28.224.20 $ORIGIN org. lambert IN NS sting.artisoft.com. IN MX 10 phaeton.artisoft.com. IN MX 20 coyote.artisoft.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- sting.artisoft.com is an alias for phaton.artisoft.com, and is delegated to an IP alias which varias based on what OS the physical machine is booted under, in order o make the MX records not refer to itself unless the machine is booted FreeBSD. Basically, the "phaeton" MX blinks on and off in DNS for whatever IP "sting" is an alias for at the moment. Anyway, that's enough information about this. The fact is, it works, despite BIND's whining, when the primary DNS is down and phaeton is subtracted out by virtue of being DNS software running on an OS other than FreeBSD. This is a typical configuration for when the physical hardware phaeton resides on is booted to another OS (NetBSD, OpenBSD, Windows95, Windows NT, OS/2, Linux). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 16:07:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA05965 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-6.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05959 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04366 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:07:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:07:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: Alex To: current@freebsd.org Subject: 16 bit bios calls? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think that I saw a message about someone who wanted native 16bit bios calls within FreeBSD (I hope I got the right list ;) ), and just had stumbled over something that does this for Linux. Anyways, it's on Sunsite, hope it helps. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 16:08:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06021 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06015; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25847; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:08:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708072308.RAA25847@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: smp@freebsd.org cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: HEADS UP: programming the SMP kernel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:08:17 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, This posting describes important issues for the ongoing coding effort of the SMP kernel. If you expect to be participating in this effort, or maintain kernel code that may be touched by it (every major sub-system: VFS, VM, net, etc.) then you should at least monitor this thread. Please trim 'current@freebsd.org' from replys, I want to keep the traffic limited to the smp list, both to eliminate redundancy and to spare those in current with no interest in it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- We need to agree on the set of primatives available for coding SMP specific kernel code. Along with this we need a concise document describing the dos and donts of SMP conforming code. --- The lock primitives: It is expected that the lite2 locks will be the primary locking mechanism for SMP. A description can be found in: http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/Locking.html The simplelock functions are implimented and working, but the higher level lock manager cannot yet be enabled. It is expected that this will be fixed by next week. --- Deadlock management: I am leaning towards deadlock prevention, using the "resource ordering method", as oppossed to deadlock detection or avoidance. In the "resource ordering method" all resources are uniquely ordered in ascending order. A process can only compete for resources higher in precedence than the highest it currently holds. This prevents 'circular wait' or 'deadly embrace' deadlocks. Its good points are simplicity and reliability. Its bad points are the enforced discipline in writting code, ie a fair amount of work will be necessary to produce the properly ordered list. --- The existing spl code: We will most likely have to introduce some form of queueing mutex to order the access of CPUs inside the kernel. This is more or less the equivilant of spl/cpl in the UP kernel. spl is ineffective for SMP and redundant in purpose to mutexs for the SMP case. Stated another way, SMP mutexs make spl obsolete. So the issue before the house is how to accommidate both in one source tree. The 'proper' method is probably to eliminate spl entirely for both UP and SMP, replacing it with a system of mutex calls. There would probably be minor differences in the coding for each(UP & SMP), but that detail would be localized to the implimentation file for mutex itself. I know this one is a biggie, and will probaly generate a lot of comment. But its the gate we stand at, and its time to enter... -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 16:23:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA06588 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (root@nepal-12.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06579 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04389 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:20:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org Reply-To: Alex To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Kernel Configurator thingy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, I finally got around to finishing this thing (collection of sh scripts), I hope it helps at least someone out there. It can/does: Be fairly easily modified Create a kernel configuration fairly similar to GENERIC if you hit enter the whole time Have most of the devices from the LINT file, with the exception of Sound Cards, and vid capture stuff. It can't/doesn't at the moment: Have the ability to read input from files, such as LINT. Have the ability to go back and modify things Support most flags Do do much error checking. I'm working on something that uses the version of Dialog hacked by the Linux people for their Menu Config thing, and hope to come up with something similar, and integrate the abililty to read and save files to the non lxdialog version of this thing soon. I've put it up at http://www.wenet.net/~garbanzo/temp/kernelconfig.tar.gz if anyone would like to take a look at it. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 17:03:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA08424 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mexcom.net (mail.mexcom.net [206.103.64.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08415 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunix (eculp@sunix.mexcom.net [206.103.64.3]) by mail.mexcom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA10055; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:03:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <33EA623B.6C8364DD@mexcom.net> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 19:03:07 -0500 From: Edwin Culp Organization: Mexico Communicates, S.C. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.14 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex CC: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kernel Configurator thingy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex wrote: > > Well, I finally got around to finishing this thing (collection of sh > scripts), I hope it helps at least someone out there. > > It can/does: > Be fairly easily modified > Create a kernel configuration fairly similar to GENERIC if you hit > enter the whole time > Have most of the devices from the LINT file, with the exception of Sound > Cards, and vid capture stuff. > It can't/doesn't at the moment: > Have the ability to read input from files, such as LINT. > Have the ability to go back and modify things > Support most flags > Do do much error checking. > > I'm working on something that uses the version of Dialog hacked by the > Linux people for their Menu Config thing, and hope to come up with > something similar, and integrate the abililty to read and save files to > the non lxdialog version of this thing soon. > > I've put it up at http://www.wenet.net/~garbanzo/temp/kernelconfig.tar.gz > if anyone would like to take a look at it. > > - alex Not Found The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it. :-( From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 17:41:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA10880 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@tibet-30.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10854 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA00620 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:40:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:40:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kernel Configurator thingy In-Reply-To: <33EA623B.6C8364DD@mexcom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Edwin Culp wrote: > > I've put it up at http://www.wenet.net/~garbanzo/temp/kernelconfig.tar.gz > > if anyone would like to take a look at it. > > > > - alex > > Not Found Ooops, looks like the email got sent out quicker than I could upload the file. Sorry. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 17:52:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11491 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@tibet-30.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11433 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA00638; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:51:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:51:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: George Michaelson cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <199708071055.UAA03384@broon.off.connect.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, George Michaelson wrote: > Ok so news at 11 it isn't but I thought I'd add some figures to the pot. > > single-user 32Mb P100, fuji 1.2Gb drive, Asus mainboard with 512k cache. > > looks like 20%+ speedup across the board. Definately worth it. > > next stop, DMA. Not to be rude, but you'd probably get an equall great increase if not more so by switching to SCSI, along with reduced cpu usage. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 17:55:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA11639 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@tibet-30.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.9.158]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11627 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA00644; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:53:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Barry Masterson cc: FreeBSD-current Subject: Re: XFree86-3.3, FBSD-2.2.2 & ViRGE/VX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Barry Masterson wrote: > While I was at it, I restored the X33-src files, and built > XFree86-33 (free of any of the authors patches) on the 2.2.1 > system. > > So far the XF86_SVGA 'no second restart' problem has not > occured. AFAIK, 3.3 has a few security (According to the Debian site) and other misc bug fixes, well worth using, and probably worth merging with -stable. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 18:46:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA14122 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broon.off.connect.com.au (broon.off.connect.com.au [203.63.69.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA14111 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from connect.com.au (ggm@localhost) by broon.off.connect.com.au with ESMTP id LAA07779 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:44:46 +1000 (EST) To: Alex cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:51:27 MST." Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 11:44:45 +1000 Message-ID: <7777.871004685@connect.com.au> From: George Michaelson Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > looks like 20%+ speedup across the board. Definately worth it. > > next stop, DMA. Not to be rude, but you'd probably get an equall great increase if not more so by switching to SCSI, along with reduced cpu usage. Sure. but I don't have the $$$ to do this. Anyway, if there is milage in making ISA work, I might as well try it. This is kinda a sore point for me. I've been at the top-end of box configs and I've been at the bottom. There are lots of users out there who just aren't going to get SMP enabled 512k cache m/b with fast-wide scsi, and making lower end configs work 'optimally' is important. I think it was said in 'insanely great' that shaving 1 second off the boot time for a Mac over the lifetime of the MacOS is like saving 10 peoples lifespans in time saved worldwide... -George -- George Michaelson | connect.com.au pty/ltd Email: ggm@connect.com.au | c/o AAPT, Phone: +61 7 3834 9976 | level 8, the Riverside Centre, Fax: +61 7 3834 9908 | 123 Eagle St, Brisbane QLD 4000 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 19:39:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA16627 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16620 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id VAA01532; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:39:05 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708080239.VAA01532@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <7777.871004685@connect.com.au> from George Michaelson at "Aug 8, 97 11:44:45 am" To: ggm@connect.com.au (George Michaelson) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:39:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: garbanzo@hooked.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > looks like 20%+ speedup across the board. Definately worth it. > > > > next stop, DMA. > > Not to be rude, but you'd probably get an equall great increase if not > more so by switching to SCSI, along with reduced cpu usage. > > Sure. but I don't have the $$$ to do this. Anyway, if there is milage > in making ISA work, I might as well try it. > Well, I have both SCSI and IDE. If I just need another 4GB or so, I can just slap in a $250 IDE drive and be done with it. Hope to have a Promise controller driver running soon, and that will allow a total of 8 of the little IDE jellybeans (some people have other names for them, but those names aren't very polite) in my machine. :-). Don't get me wrong, I want a few Cheetah drives in my collection also, but for price/performance in a workstation (not server) environment, the IDEs are not that bad. The biggest complaint that I have about IDE drives is that they tend to be slightly less reliable (cost-reduced), and that is likely the reason for the lower price. If I had my druthers, I would prefer having 8/9GB Cheetah drives, and a few other types for testing, using a couple of 3940 controllers to spread the load. I would also like to have an 8 processor Pentium-pro motherboard, to get my kernel compile times down from 90secs to 25secs :-). BTW, my kernel compile time of approx 90-100secs is when using IDE drives in an SMP environment. :-). John From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 20:08:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA17632 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from micron.efn.org (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.170.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA17627 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mini@localhost) by micron.efn.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00717; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19970807200907.36541@micron.efn.org> Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:09:07 -0700 From: Jonathan Mini To: Alex Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 16 bit bios calls? Reply-To: Jonathan Mini References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76e In-Reply-To: ; from Alex on Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 04:07:14PM -0700 X-files: The Truth is Out There. Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex stands accused of saying : > I think that I saw a message about someone who wanted native 16bit bios > calls within FreeBSD (I hope I got the right list ;) ), and just had > stumbled over something that does this for Linux. Anyways, it's on > Sunsite, hope it helps. > > - alex That was me. I had planned on writing it myself, since I needed something that did more. :) -- Jonathan Mini (j_mini@efn.org) ... bleakness ... desolation ... plastic forks ... From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 20:42:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA18642 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celebris.tddhome (sil-wa5-02.ix.netcom.com [206.214.137.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18637 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tomdean@localhost) by celebris.tddhome (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00262 for current@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:42:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Dean Message-Id: <199708080342.UAA00262@celebris.tddhome> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Trap 9 When Boot SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have been trying to get SMP running on my machine, a Digital Equipment Corp. Celebris XL 5133DP. I get a trap 9 when I try to run an SMP kernel. I tried -current and 3.0-970618-SNAP, with similar results. It looks like this machine will NOT run SMP. It does run WINNT and utilize both cpu's. Is there any hope for this machine (or me)? I have included some of the power-on-test output, the output from dmesg, the output from mptable, and a re-type of the trap message. I was running FreeBSD 3.0-970618-SNAP #0: Thu Aug 7 15:33:50 PDT 1997 GENERIC for the dmesg and the mptable output. I successfully built a kernel derived from GENERIC. It boots and runs fine. There were some warnings about pointer types during the build. I will locate these and send a proposed fix, later. I added the kernel options from mptable to this config file and built a kernel with only the same few warnings. The kernel boot process ended with a trap 9. I built SMP-GENERIC without change. Except for slightly different addresses, the results were the same. Is any of this information useful? ########################################################################### >From the machine POST - copyright notices, etc. deleted... Matrox Power Graphics Accelerator MGA Series VGA/VBE BIOS version V1.5 Phoenix BIOS Version 4.04 Plug and Play Celebris XL 5133DP Version 2.04 NCR SDMS V3.0 PCI SCSI BIOS PCI Rev 2.0 NCRPCI-3.05.03 ########################################################################### ########################################################################### First, dmesg: Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-970618-SNAP #0: Thu Aug 7 15:33:50 PDT 1997 root@celebris:/usr/src/sys/compile/CELEBRIS CPU: Pentium (133.35-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x525 Stepping=5 Features=0x3bf real memory = 33554432 (32768K bytes) avail memory = 30539776 (29824K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x11 on pci0.0.0 ncr0: rev 0x02 int a irq 11 on pci0.1.0 ncr0: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus0 at ncr0 bus 0 sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0: Direct-Access sd0: 10.0 MB/s (100 ns, offset 8) 1042MB (2134305 512 byte sectors) sd1 at scbus0 target 1 lun 0 sd1: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1: Direct-Access sd1: 10.0 MB/s (100 ns, offset 8) 3090MB (6328861 512 byte sectors) sd2 at scbus0 target 2 lun 0 sd2: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2: Direct-Access sd2: 10.0 MB/s (100 ns, offset 8) 1029MB (2109376 512 byte sectors) cd0 at scbus0 target 5 lun 0 cd0: type 5 removable SCSI 2 cd0: CD-ROM cd0: asynchronous. cd present [328355 x 2048 byte records] chip1: rev 0x88 on pci0.2.0 vga0: rev 0x01 int a irq 9 on pci0.6.0 de0: rev 0x11 int a irq 10 on pci0.8.0 de0: DE450-CA 21041 [10Mb/s] pass 1.1 de0: address 00:00:f8:02:76:db Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard psm0: device ID 0 fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface de0: enabling BNC port ########################################################################### ########################################################################### now, from mptable =============================================================================== MPTable, version 2.0.11 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MP Floating Pointer Structure: location: EBDA physical address: 0x0009fc30 signature: '_MP_' length: 16 bytes version: 1.1 checksum: 0x55 mode: Virtual Wire ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MP default config type: 5 bus: ISA+PCI, APIC: Integrated ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- # SMP kernel config file options: # Required: options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel options APIC_IO # Symmetric (APIC) I/O # Useful: #options SMP_AUTOSTART # start the additional CPUs during boot # Optional (built-in defaults will work in most cases): # found a note in the archive to add these, so, here goes. options NCPU=2 # number of CPUs options NBUS=2 # number of busses options NAPIC=1 # number of IO APICs options NINTR=24 # number of INTs # Currently broken: #options SMP_PRIVPAGES # BROKEN, DO NOT use! # Rogue hardware: # # Tyan Tomcat II: #options SMP_TIMER_NC # # # SuperMicro P6DNE: #options SMP_TIMER_NC # ########################################################################### ########################################################################### The kernel config file: # # CELEBRIS-SMP # # 970807 tomdean # # derived from $Id: GENERIC,v 1.91 1997/06/06 12:24:43 jkh Exp $ machine "i386" cpu "I586_CPU" ident CELEBRIS maxusers 50 #................................................................. # # options from mptable # #MPTable, version 2.0.11 # #-------------------------------------------------------------------------- # #MP Floating Pointer Structure: # # #location: EBDA # physical address: 0x0009fc30 # signature: '_MP_' # length: 16 bytes # version: 1.1 # checksum: 0x55 # mode: Virtual Wire # #-------------------------------------------------------------------------- # # MP default config type: 5 # # bus: ISA+PCI, APIC: Integrated # #-------------------------------------------------------------------------- # # SMP kernel config file options: # Required: options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel options APIC_IO # Symmetric (APIC) I/O # Useful: #options SMP_AUTOSTART # start the additional CPUs during boot # Optional (built-in defaults will work in most cases): #options NCPU=2 # number of CPUs #options NBUS=2 # number of busses #options NAPIC=1 # number of IO APICs #options NINTR=24 # number of INTs # Currently broken: #options SMP_PRIVPAGES # BROKEN, DO NOT use! # Rogue hardware: # # Tyan Tomcat II: #options SMP_TIMER_NC # # # SuperMicro P6DNE: #options SMP_TIMER_NC # #................................................................. options INET #InterNETworking options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem options NFS #Network Filesystem options MSDOSFS #MSDOS Filesystem options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 Filesystem options PROCFS #Process filesystem options "COMPAT_43" #Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THIS!] options SCSI_DELAY=15 #Be pessimistic about Joe SCSI device options BOUNCE_BUFFERS #include support for DMA bounce buffers options UCONSOLE #Allow users to grab the console options FAILSAFE #Be conservative options SYSVSHM # for X11 options SYSVSEM # for X11 options SYSVMSG # for X11 options PSM_CHECKSYNC # resync when switch console modes config kernel root on sd2 controller isa0 controller pci0 controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 tape ft0 at fdc0 drive 2 controller ncr0 controller scbus0 device sd0 #device od0 #See LINT for possible `od' options. device st0 device cd0 #Only need one of these, the code dynamically grows # syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr options XSERVER # support for X server device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" irq 13 vector npxintr device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty irq 4 vector siointr device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty irq 3 vector siointr device lpt0 at isa? port? tty irq 7 vector lptintr device psm0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" conflicts tty irq 12 vector psmintr device de0 pseudo-device loop pseudo-device ether pseudo-device log pseudo-device sl 1 # ijppp uses tun instead of ppp device #pseudo-device ppp 1 pseudo-device tun 1 pseudo-device pty 16 pseudo-device gzip # Exec gzipped a.out's # KTRACE enables the system-call tracing facility ktrace(2). # This adds 4 KB bloat to your kernel, and slightly increases # the costs of each syscall. options KTRACE #kernel tracing ########################################################################### ########################################################################### Booting the new kernel resulted in a trap: ... npx0: INT16 interface stray irq 13 Enabled INTS: 1,2,3,4,6,7,8,10,11,12,13,imem 0x00ffc221 Fatal Trap 9: general protection fault while in kernel mode cpunumber=0 ip = 0x8: 0xfo1d7c1e sp = 0x10:0xf4730eac fp = 0x10:0xf4730efc cs = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1 proc eflags = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL=0 current process = 5(cpuidle0) interrupt mask = trap number = 9 panic: general protection fault cpu #0 From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 20:49:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA18856 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bmccane.uit.net (bmccane.uit.net [208.129.189.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18842 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bmccane.uit.net (localhost.mccane.com [127.0.0.1]) by bmccane.uit.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA08583; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:47:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708080347.WAA08583@bmccane.uit.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Philippe Regnauld cc: Alex , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kernel configuration script In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 Aug 1997 11:52:19 +0200." <19970804115219.19743@deepo.prosa.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 22:47:53 -0500 From: Wm Brian McCane Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Alex writes: > > Well, since I've seen nobody else make one, or publish one, etc, etc. I > > spent a few hours, and created a trio of kludgy bash (not sh) scripts to > > make configuring kernels a bit easier for the average newbie. If anyone > > would like to give them a try, I'll tar,gz em and email em out. Otherwise > > I'll post em in my web space when I feel they're fairly useable. > > I'll take a look. But let's say right away that such a tool would > need three things (Terry is gonna love this :-) : > > - UI independent code, meaning you could have this as a batch > processor, command-line or pseudo-UI interaction (i.e.: dialog). > > - dependency check to see what's available relative to the > system we're runnning -- we don't want to have to customize > the script every time, and it should still be able to offer > SMP on 3.0, but not on 2.2.x. Device-dependent have to be > treated as such (don't want AHC_SCB_PAGING to be selectable > when one uses ncr0, or PCI devices on ISA machine :-) You might want to take a look at my kernel configuration program. It is written in "C" and allows many forms of interaction between the various options. It automatically checks for IRQ/DMA/IO conflicts. And is fairly easy to configure. > - some mechanism for reading and parsing pre-written configuration > files -- accepting files like /sys/i386/conf/GENERIC is obvious, > but I'm talking at something capable of reading "skeleton" > pieces, and filling in the blanks -- for instance: > > include net-subsystem-defs > include disk-subsystem-defs > figure out cpu for yourself, etc... My program can read all of the standard configuration files, and can in fact use /sys/i386/conf/LINT as the main configuration file for itemizing options. I use a modified version of LINT to do all the work. I had considered adding an include option to the program, but it didn't seem "profitable" at this time. If you would like to see the program, it is at: fetch ftp://bmccane.uit.net/pub/kc/kc1.1.tgz brian From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 21:06:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA19506 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user4467@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA19496 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 8 Aug 1997 04:08:44 -0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:08:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: George Michaelson , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <199708080239.VAA01532@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > > > > > looks like 20%+ speedup across the board. Definately worth it. > > > > > > next stop, DMA. > > > > Not to be rude, but you'd probably get an equall great increase if not > > more so by switching to SCSI, along with reduced cpu usage. > > > > Sure. but I don't have the $$$ to do this. Anyway, if there is milage > > in making ISA work, I might as well try it. > > > Well, I have both SCSI and IDE. If I just need another 4GB or so, I can > just slap in a $250 IDE drive and be done with it. Hope to have a Promise > controller driver running soon, and that will allow a total of 8 of the > little IDE jellybeans (some people have other names for them, but those > names aren't very polite) in my machine. :-). The main advantage with SCSI is the speed of the drive; not the interface. Typically SCSI drives are 5400RPM at worst, and IDEs are 5400RPM at best. I do not see IDE drives getting those 7-8ms seek times either. Good seeks for IDE are 10ms, roughly 30% slower than SCSI. Doing a very crude benchmark: $ time dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/file1 bs=1024 count=20000 $ time dd if=/tmp/file1 of=/dev/null bs=1024 count=20000 $ time dd if=/tmp/file1 of=/tmp/file2 bs=1024 count=20000 "Identical" (Quantum Fireball ST 6.4GB IDE/SCSI) drives have almost identical results. SCSI will be better with multiple drives, but in this case not worth the expense IMHO, especially when the cost of the host adapter is included. If you need really good performace (NFS server, news, etc.), SCSI is far superior. Using the above "benchmark", our Atlas-II drives go about 17MB/sec on files up to 40MB. On arbitrarily large files (200MB plus), the sustained throughput is about half that. Due to the lower rotational speed, IDE drives are actually more reliable in my experience. You'd be surprised how long an engine lasts when it never exceeds 55 miles per hour! I would not recommend a Cheetah for any mission critical machine. It produces so much heat that the system in general is jeopardized. Looking at all the last second "wire jumpers" on the PCB does not make me any more comfortable with the design. I'd wait for the next wave of 10,000RPM drives to hit the market. Kevin From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 21:27:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA20549 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA20536; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id XAA02012; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:27:19 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: from Atipa at "Aug 7, 97 10:08:44 pm" To: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:27:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The main advantage with SCSI is the speed of the drive; not the > interface. Typically SCSI drives are 5400RPM at worst, and IDEs are > 5400RPM at best. I do not see IDE drives getting those 7-8ms seek times > either. Good seeks for IDE are 10ms, roughly 30% slower than SCSI. > > Doing a very crude benchmark: > $ time dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/file1 bs=1024 count=20000 > $ time dd if=/tmp/file1 of=/dev/null bs=1024 count=20000 > $ time dd if=/tmp/file1 of=/tmp/file2 bs=1024 count=20000 > I certainly don't disagree that SCSI drives are generally better. However, IDE's are very very inexpensive. Here is an interesting benchmark: This is the result of my "slow" recent, but not the latest, greatest IDE drive (WD 4GB drive.): Command overhead is 88 usec (time_4096 = 348, time_8192 = 607) transfer speed is 1.57828e+07 bytes/sec dd if=/dev/rwd1 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k 1600+0 records in 1600+0 records out 104857600 bytes transferred in 10.881267 secs (9636525 bytes/sec) This is the result of my Hawk, SCSI drive, with an NCR 815 interface: Command overhead is 845 usec (time_4096 = 2071, time_8192 = 3297) transfer speed is 3.34201e+06 bytes/sec dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k 1600+0 records in 1600+0 records out 104857600 bytes transferred in 27.336979 secs (3835742 bytes/sec) Looks like the command overhead of the IDE drive is very low. In fact, I doubt that an Atlas-II or a WD Enterprise with an AHA2940 will do much better than 200usec. Sure, tagged command queuing, etc will make SCSI under load out-perform an IDE system -- however, 4GB for about $300 is very tempting. A good 4GB SCSI drive that has the 30% higher performance that you suggest would cost at least $600, right? A WD Enterprise, a Seagate Barracuda, or Quantum Atlas-II costs at least that... /* * I think that BDE wrote this: */ #include #include #include #include #include #define ITERATIONS 1000 static int syserror(const char *where); static long timeit(int fd, char *buf, unsigned blocksize); int main(int argc, char **argv) { char buf[2 * 4096]; int fd; long time_4096; long time_8192; if (argc != 2) { fprintf(stderr, "usage: %s device\n", argv[0]); exit(1); } fd = open(argv[1], O_RDONLY); if (fd == -1) syserror("open"); time_4096 = timeit(fd, buf, 4096); time_8192 = timeit(fd, buf, 8192); printf("Command overhead is %ld usec (time_4096 = %ld, time_8192 = %ld)\n", (time_4096 - (time_8192 - time_4096)) / ITERATIONS, time_4096 / ITERATIONS, time_8192 / ITERATIONS); printf("transfer speed is %g bytes/sec\n", 4096 * ITERATIONS * 1000000.0 / (time_8192 - time_4096)); exit(0); } static int syserror(const char *where) { perror(where); exit(1); } static long timeit(int fd, char *buf, unsigned blocksize) { struct timeval finish; int i; struct timeval start; if (read(fd, buf, blocksize) != blocksize) syserror("read"); if (gettimeofday(&start, (struct timezone *)NULL) != 0) syserror("gettimeofday(start)"); for (i = 0; i < ITERATIONS; ++i) { if (lseek(fd, (off_t)0, SEEK_SET) == -1) syserror("lseek"); if (read(fd, buf, blocksize) != blocksize) syserror("read"); } if (gettimeofday(&finish, (struct timezone *)NULL) != 0) syserror("gettimeofday(finish)"); return (finish.tv_sec - start.tv_sec) * 1000000 + finish.tv_usec - start.tv_usec; } From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 21:55:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA21973 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA21967 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA12483 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:54:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sil-wa5-02.ix.netcom.com(206.214.137.98) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma012467; Thu Aug 7 23:54:41 1997 Message-ID: <33EAA68E.167EB0E7@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 21:54:38 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Dean" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trap 9 When Boot SMP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for the bogus return address. This machine is not completely setup. I guess I should not be using it, but, ... tomdean From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 21:57:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA22124 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user4751@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22119 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 8 Aug 1997 05:00:22 -0000 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:00:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: "John S. Dyson" cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My thoughts exactly. Depending on the card and driver level, SCSI is actually slower in many cases. Similar IDE drives outperformed SCSIs unsing a 2940UW w/ 2.1.5-RELEASE. 2.2 kernels and above have noticably faster Adaptec drivers. Haven't played much with the NCR, but I think I heard the ncr.c does not support ultra or ultra-wide. True? I definitely recommend IDE for workstations and medium demand servers. However, SCSI will still have its market. When expandability and performance are key, SCSI is the only solution (for now!). Maybe fibre-channel will start to get more popular... Kevin On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > The main advantage with SCSI is the speed of the drive; not the > > interface. Typically SCSI drives are 5400RPM at worst, and IDEs are > > 5400RPM at best. I do not see IDE drives getting those 7-8ms seek times > > either. Good seeks for IDE are 10ms, roughly 30% slower than SCSI. > > > > Doing a very crude benchmark: > > $ time dd if=/dev/zero of=/tmp/file1 bs=1024 count=20000 > > $ time dd if=/tmp/file1 of=/dev/null bs=1024 count=20000 > > $ time dd if=/tmp/file1 of=/tmp/file2 bs=1024 count=20000 > > > I certainly don't disagree that SCSI drives are generally better. However, > IDE's are very very inexpensive. Here is an interesting benchmark: > > This is the result of my "slow" recent, but not the latest, greatest > IDE drive (WD 4GB drive.): > > Command overhead is 88 usec (time_4096 = 348, time_8192 = 607) > transfer speed is 1.57828e+07 bytes/sec > > dd if=/dev/rwd1 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > 1600+0 records in > 1600+0 records out > 104857600 bytes transferred in 10.881267 secs (9636525 bytes/sec) > > This is the result of my Hawk, SCSI drive, with an NCR 815 interface: > > Command overhead is 845 usec (time_4096 = 2071, time_8192 = 3297) > transfer speed is 3.34201e+06 bytes/sec > > dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > 1600+0 records in > 1600+0 records out > 104857600 bytes transferred in 27.336979 secs (3835742 bytes/sec) > > Looks like the command overhead of the IDE drive is very low. In fact, > I doubt that an Atlas-II or a WD Enterprise with an AHA2940 will do much > better than 200usec. Sure, tagged command queuing, etc will make SCSI under load > out-perform an IDE system -- however, 4GB for about $300 is very tempting. A good > 4GB SCSI drive that has the 30% higher performance that you suggest would cost > at least $600, right? A WD Enterprise, a Seagate Barracuda, or Quantum Atlas-II > costs at least that... > > > /* > * I think that BDE wrote this: > */ > #include > #include > #include > #include > #include > > #define ITERATIONS 1000 > > static int syserror(const char *where); > static long timeit(int fd, char *buf, unsigned blocksize); > > int main(int argc, char **argv) > { > char buf[2 * 4096]; > int fd; > long time_4096; > long time_8192; > > if (argc != 2) > { > fprintf(stderr, "usage: %s device\n", argv[0]); > exit(1); > } > fd = open(argv[1], O_RDONLY); > if (fd == -1) > syserror("open"); > time_4096 = timeit(fd, buf, 4096); > time_8192 = timeit(fd, buf, 8192); > printf("Command overhead is %ld usec (time_4096 = %ld, time_8192 = %ld)\n", > (time_4096 - (time_8192 - time_4096)) / ITERATIONS, > time_4096 / ITERATIONS, time_8192 / ITERATIONS); > printf("transfer speed is %g bytes/sec\n", > 4096 * ITERATIONS * 1000000.0 / (time_8192 - time_4096)); > exit(0); > } > > static int syserror(const char *where) > { > perror(where); > exit(1); > } > > static long timeit(int fd, char *buf, unsigned blocksize) > { > struct timeval finish; > int i; > struct timeval start; > > if (read(fd, buf, blocksize) != blocksize) > syserror("read"); > if (gettimeofday(&start, (struct timezone *)NULL) != 0) > syserror("gettimeofday(start)"); > for (i = 0; i < ITERATIONS; ++i) > { > if (lseek(fd, (off_t)0, SEEK_SET) == -1) > syserror("lseek"); > if (read(fd, buf, blocksize) != blocksize) > syserror("read"); > } > if (gettimeofday(&finish, (struct timezone *)NULL) != 0) > syserror("gettimeofday(finish)"); > return (finish.tv_sec - start.tv_sec) * 1000000 > + finish.tv_usec - start.tv_usec; > } > > > From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 22:00:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA22322 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA22313 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01075; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:00:16 +0200 (CEST) To: Thomas Dean cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: Trap 9 When Boot SMP In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:42:03 PDT." <199708080342.UAA00262@celebris.tddhome> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 07:00:16 +0200 Message-ID: <1073.871016416@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708080342.UAA00262@celebris.tddhome>, Thomas Dean writes: >I have been trying to get SMP running on my machine, >a Digital Equipment Corp. Celebris XL 5133DP. > >I get a trap 9 when I try to run an SMP kernel. I tried -current >and 3.0-970618-SNAP, with similar results. Hmm I have one such beast and have had it running, but my src are at least a month old (due to vacation). I'll get back to you when I've tried it again... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 22:06:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA22632 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA22624 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA13561 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:05:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sil-wa5-02.ix.netcom.com(206.214.137.98) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma013500; Fri Aug 8 00:05:03 1997 Message-ID: <33EAA8FC.2781E494@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 22:05:00 -0700 From: "Thomas D. Dean" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trap 9 When Boot SMP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for the bogus return address. I have not completed setup for this machine, and, should most likely not be using it. tomdean@ix.netcom.com From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 22:37:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA24003 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-4.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23998; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02080; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:37:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:37:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Atipa cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, George Michaelson , current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > The main advantage with SCSI is the speed of the drive; not the > interface. Typically SCSI drives are 5400RPM at worst, and IDEs are > 5400RPM at best. I do not see IDE drives getting those 7-8ms seek times > either. Good seeks for IDE are 10ms, roughly 30% slower than SCSI. Not to me. The main advantage is being able to hook up a cd-rom or other _non_ hard drive device easily, without having to worry if the atapi support on the particular os is good enough, or the ability to do external drives (IDE can't really). Parity checking is another plus, SCSI is also good for big drives. Performance is just an added bonus as far as I'm concerned. > Due to the lower rotational speed, IDE drives are actually more reliable > in my experience. You'd be surprised how long an engine lasts when it > never exceeds 55 miles per hour! What fun ;P But I think (don't know) that most scsi drives are probably built better, just a wild guess. > I would not recommend a Cheetah for any mission critical machine. It > produces so much heat that the system in general is jeopardized. Looking > at all the last second "wire jumpers" on the PCB does not make me any > more comfortable with the design. I'd wait for the next wave of 10,000RPM > drives to hit the market. So stick it in an external case with it's own ps and fan. Not too hard, nor too expensive if it's totally mission critical, or just a crappy (read puny sized) computer. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 22:44:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA24360 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-4.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA24351 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02108 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:44:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:44:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: SMP options in LINT? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just looked at the post about the person with problems using SMP, and noticed his earlier version of SMP-GENERIC had a lot of smp options to work around various rogue hardware. Are those deficiencies still present or did those options just disappear? - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 22:51:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA24823 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax3-4.ppp.wenet.net [206.80.14.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA24812; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02129; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:50:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:50:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Atipa cc: "John S. Dyson" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > > My thoughts exactly. Depending on the card and driver level, SCSI is > actually slower in many cases. Similar IDE drives outperformed SCSIs > unsing a 2940UW w/ 2.1.5-RELEASE. 2.2 kernels and above have noticably > faster Adaptec drivers. Haven't played much with the NCR, but I > think I heard the ncr.c does not support ultra or ultra-wide. True? My AHA-1542 with a Quantum Lightning was glacial, the oldish WD 212mb hdd I had out preformed it easily. > I definitely recommend IDE for workstations and medium demand servers. > However, SCSI will still have its market. When expandability and performance > are key, SCSI is the only solution (for now!). Maybe fibre-channel will > start to get more popular... No way. Any server is usually mission critical, and parity checking is a MUST for anything near mission critical. IDE doesn't do that. IMO a big no no. That and from what I've heard scsi outpreforms ide with multiple commands and the like, a simple dd if=/dev/zero won't show this at all. > Kevin - alex From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 23:17:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA25977 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail0.iij.ad.jp (mail0.iij.ad.jp [202.232.2.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA25972 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucp2.iij.ad.jp (uucp2.iij.ad.jp [202.232.2.202]) by mail0.iij.ad.jp (8.8.5+2.7Wbeta5/3.5Wpl4-MAIL) with SMTP id PAA25423; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:16:06 +0900 (JST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by uucp2.iij.ad.jp (8.6.12+2.4W/3.3W9-UUCP) with UUCP id PAA08129; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:16:06 +0900 Received: from tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp [192.168.1.2]) by tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (8.8.6/3.4W2-uucp) with ESMTP id KAA15683; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:48:42 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (localhost.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp [127.0.0.1]) by tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp (8.8.6/3.4Wnomx) with SMTP id KAA02182; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:48:42 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199708080148.KAA02182@tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp> X-Authentication-Warning: tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp: localhost.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q) CVSup operation Reply-To: ken@tydfam.iijnet.or.jp In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 7 Aug 1997 04:39:04 -0700 (PDT)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.2 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:48:41 +0900 From: Takeshi Yamada Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chris, thank you for your prompt reply. skynyrd> cvsup -P m -g -L 2 supfile.cvsup ^^^^^ -P m solved the problem, so skynyrd> Maybe a packet filter is blocking the connection that the server is trying skynyrd> to make back to your machine? If you like, try connecting to you are right. I renewed my cvsup using ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/CVSup/cvsup-bin-15.1.tar.gz as you suggested, of which version was; $: {1} cvsup -v CVSup client Software version: REL_15_1 Protocol version: 15.2 While my previous version from ports collection was; $: {1} cvsup -v CVSup client Software version: REL_15_1 Protocol version: 15.1 I did nothing with my network for these 6 months, and only did "make world" every other week automatically. And suddenly I got in trouble. I have no firewall for this source code archive machine. Thank you, anyway. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 23:27:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA26436 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA26429; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA25660; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:22:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:22:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Atipa cc: "John S. Dyson" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Atipa wrote: > My thoughts exactly. Depending on the card and driver level, SCSI is > actually slower in many cases. Similar IDE drives outperformed SCSIs Many cases? Only in command overhead. ... > > This is the result of my Hawk, SCSI drive, with an NCR 815 interface: > > > > Command overhead is 845 usec (time_4096 = 2071, time_8192 = 3297) > > transfer speed is 3.34201e+06 bytes/sec > > > > dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > > 1600+0 records in > > 1600+0 records out > > 104857600 bytes transferred in 27.336979 secs (3835742 bytes/sec) Hehe, I can do the above dd at 8738133 bytes/sec, on a NCR 810 (narrow!), with a Seagate Barracuda. Try to find a IDE drive that can do that. This is only a P120. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 23:40:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA27119 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27110; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA25725; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:36:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:36:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Alex cc: Atipa , "John S. Dyson" , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Alex wrote: > My AHA-1542 with a Quantum Lightning was glacial, the oldish WD 212mb hdd > I had out preformed it easily. If you can increase the DMA timings on your motherboard, and this doesn't upset your other cards, you can get a noticable performance improvent. The 1542 defaults to a really safe default transfer rate. You can increase it and run a test to verify. The main problem is the ISA bus, not SCSI. The 1542 tries hard to get around this, but ISA is just a pain. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 23:52:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA27536 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27513; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id IAA01405; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:50:15 +0200 (MEST) From: Sřren Schmidt Message-Id: <199708080650.IAA01405@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: from Tom at "Aug 7, 97 11:22:25 pm" To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:50:15 +0200 (MEST) Cc: freebsd@atipa.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to Tom who wrote: > > > > dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > > > 1600+0 records in > > > 1600+0 records out > > > 104857600 bytes transferred in 27.336979 secs (3835742 bytes/sec) > > Hehe, I can do the above dd at 8738133 bytes/sec, on a NCR 810 > (narrow!), with a Seagate Barracuda. Try to find a IDE drive that can do > that. This is only a P120. Don't get exicited yet :) I can do that like this: dd if=/dev/rwd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k 1600+0 records in 1600+0 records out 104857600 bytes transferred in 11.357939 secs (9232097 bytes/sec) So come again :) Oh did I tell you, its a P133 (Opti chipset) with a Maxtor 4G EIDE drive, I spent US$ 250 for that, how much was your Barracuda & controller ?? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sřren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-current Thu Aug 7 23:56:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA27772 for current-outgoing; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27767; Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id BAA00553; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:56:12 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708080656.BAA00553@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <199708080650.IAA01405@sos.freebsd.dk> from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Schmidt?= at "Aug 8, 97 08:50:15 am" To: sos@sos.freebsd.dk (Sřren Schmidt) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:56:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: tom@uniserve.com, freebsd@atipa.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In reply to Tom who wrote: > > > > > > dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > > > > 1600+0 records in > > > > 1600+0 records out > > > > 104857600 bytes transferred in 27.336979 secs (3835742 bytes/sec) > > > > Hehe, I can do the above dd at 8738133 bytes/sec, on a NCR 810 > > (narrow!), with a Seagate Barracuda. Try to find a IDE drive that can do > > that. This is only a P120. > > Don't get exicited yet :) I can do that like this: > > dd if=/dev/rwd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > 1600+0 records in > 1600+0 records out > 104857600 bytes transferred in 11.357939 secs (9232097 bytes/sec) > > So come again :) > Yep, the 9+MB/sec that I quoted was also for my 4GB Caviar. I guess that it could have been confusing since the WD Enterprise (SCSI) is also available in 4GB. These EIDEs even though middle/low end, actually perform pretty well. Wouldn't want to run a full feed newserver on them though :-). John From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 00:10:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA28220 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA28214; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id JAA01517; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:10:45 +0200 (MEST) From: Sřren Schmidt Message-Id: <199708080710.JAA01517@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <199708080656.BAA00553@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Aug 8, 97 01:56:12 am" To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:10:45 +0200 (MEST) Cc: tom@uniserve.com, freebsd@atipa.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to John S. Dyson who wrote: > > > Yep, the 9+MB/sec that I quoted was also for my 4GB Caviar. I guess that > it could have been confusing since the WD Enterprise (SCSI) is also available > in 4GB. These EIDEs even though middle/low end, actually perform pretty > well. Wouldn't want to run a full feed newserver on them though :-). Nope, but for a Workstation they are screamers. For small servers they are OK too, especially now with DMA support. You can actually build a 28G fileserver with 4 of the new Maxtor 7G drives for less than US$ 1800 for the drives. Add a decent mother board and a netcard and you have a very nice ftp/web/whatever server for less that US$ 3000. Beat that! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sřren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 00:17:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA28424 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sinbin.demos.su (sinbin.demos.su [194.87.0.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA28419; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sinbin.demos.su id LAA26524; (8.6.12/D) Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:13:10 +0400 From: bag@sinbin.demos.su (Alex G. Bulushev) Message-Id: <199708080713.LAA26524@sinbin.demos.su> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Aug 7, 97 11:27:18 pm" X-ELM-OSV: (Our standard violations) no-mime=1; no-hdr-encoding=1 To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:13:09 +0400 (MSD) Cc: freebsd@atipa.com, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is the result of my "slow" recent, but not the latest, greatest > IDE drive (WD 4GB drive.): > > Command overhead is 88 usec (time_4096 = 348, time_8192 = 607) > transfer speed is 1.57828e+07 bytes/sec > > dd if=/dev/rwd1 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > 1600+0 records in > 1600+0 records out > 104857600 bytes transferred in 10.881267 secs (9636525 bytes/sec) > This is results for Seagate Barracuda 9GB on second channel of adaptec 3940UW (no TAG, MEMIO etc in kernel): dmesg output: ------------- Probing for devices on PCI bus 2: ahc2 rev 0 int a irq 11 on pci2:4 ahc2: aic7880 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc2 waiting for scsi devices to settle (ahc2:0:0): "SEAGATE ST19171W 0023" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ dd output: ---------- dd if=/dev/rsd7e of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k 1600+0 records in 1600+0 records out 104857600 bytes transferred in 9.480124 secs (11060784 bytes/sec) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Alex. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 00:21:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA28573 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA28568; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id CAA00770; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 02:20:54 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708080720.CAA00770@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: <199708080713.LAA26524@sinbin.demos.su> from "Alex G. Bulushev" at "Aug 8, 97 11:13:09 am" To: bag@sinbin.demos.su (Alex G. Bulushev) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 02:20:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, freebsd@atipa.com, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This is the result of my "slow" recent, but not the latest, greatest > > IDE drive (WD 4GB drive.): > > > > Command overhead is 88 usec (time_4096 = 348, time_8192 = 607) > > transfer speed is 1.57828e+07 bytes/sec > > > > dd if=/dev/rwd1 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > > 1600+0 records in > > 1600+0 records out > > 104857600 bytes transferred in 10.881267 secs (9636525 bytes/sec) > > > > This is results for Seagate Barracuda 9GB on second channel of > adaptec 3940UW (no TAG, MEMIO etc in kernel): > > dmesg output: > ------------- > Probing for devices on PCI bus 2: > ahc2 rev 0 int a irq 11 on pci2:4 > ahc2: aic7880 Wide Channel A, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs > ahc2 waiting for scsi devices to settle > (ahc2:0:0): "SEAGATE ST19171W 0023" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > dd output: > ---------- > dd if=/dev/rsd7e of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k > 1600+0 records in > 1600+0 records out > 104857600 bytes transferred in 9.480124 secs (11060784 bytes/sec) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > What is the command overhead? John From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 00:44:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29594 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29588 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA27307; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:44:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708080744.BAA27307@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: "Thomas D. Dean" cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trap 9 When Boot SMP In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Aug 1997 20:42:03 PDT." <199708080342.UAA00262@celebris.tddhome> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:44:10 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, > I get a trap 9 when I try to run an SMP kernel. I tried -current > and 3.0-970618-SNAP, with similar results. don't bother playing with the 618 SNAP, its very different from current and not worth debugging. --- > MP default config type: 5 > > bus: ISA+PCI, APIC: Integrated we see very few default config type boards, and they frequently get "broken" as I have no way to test for them. --- > Fatal Trap 9: general protection fault while in kernel mode smells like we don't have the per-cpu pages set up properly for a default config. using current build an SMP-GENERIC kernel. make sure options ddb is set (I'm pretty sure SMP-GENERIC already sets it, but check). when you trap to ddb on the panic do a "trace" command and send us the results. -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 00:49:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA29844 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29836 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA27345; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:49:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708080749.BAA27345@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: Alex cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SMP options in LINT? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Aug 1997 22:44:41 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 01:49:23 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, > I just looked at the post about the person with problems using SMP, and > noticed his earlier version of SMP-GENERIC had a lot of smp options to > work around various rogue hardware. Are those deficiencies still present > or did those options just disappear? The current SMP-GENERIC and LINT describe the options now needed. The older options you refer to should no longer be needed or used. Specifically all these are gone: options SMP_AUTOSTART <- now automatic options SMP_PRIVPAGES <- now automatic options SMP_TIMER_NC <- programmed around except for a few special cases, you want these and only these: options SMP # Symmetric MultiProcessor Kernel options APIC_IO # Symmetric (APIC) I/O -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 05:10:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA10191 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 05:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lamb.sas.com (daemon@lamb.sas.com [192.35.83.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA10107; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 05:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mozart by lamb.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Gateway/01-23-95) id AA27523; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:08:59 -0400 Received: from iluvatar.unx.sas.com by mozart (5.65c/SAS/Domains/5-6-90) id AA10651; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:08:51 -0400 From: "John W. DeBoskey" Received: by iluvatar.unx.sas.com (5.65c/SAS/Generic 9.01/3-26-93) id AA04989; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:08:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199708081208.AA04989@iluvatar.unx.sas.com> Subject: scsi time-out & lockup under smp To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-smp@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:08:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm wondering if anyone might have some information relating to the following problem. I have the 3.0-970731-SNAP installed on a Dell PowerEdge 6100/200, four processor machine. The problem occurs on either of the two aic7880 onboard scsi devices, or a 2940 adapter board, when in multi-proccessor mode. Anywhere from 5 to 60 minutes after booting the machine, it freezes with the following messages on the console: sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed out in command pahse, SCSISIGI == 0x86 SEQADDR = 0x8c SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x7 SSTAT1 = 0x3 sd0: abort message in message buffer sd0: SCB 1 - Abort Completed. sd0: no longer in timeout sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed our while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI = 0x0 SEQADDR = 0xb SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0x2 sd0: Queueing an Abort SCB It only seems to occur when I start to initiate heavy disk io. It does not happen in the uni-proccesor situation. The complete output from dmesg is appended to this mail. If anyone can help me track this down, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, John Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-970731-SNAP #0: Thu Aug 7 12:18:00 EDT 1997 root@bb01.pc.sas.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/ONEWAY CPU: Pentium Pro (198.95-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x619 Stepping=9 Features=0xfbff real memory = 67108864 (65536K bytes) avail memory = 63643648 (62152K bytes) eisa0: Probing for devices on the EISA bus Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: fxp0: rev 0x02 int a irq 10 on pci0.11.0 fxp0: Ethernet address 00:a0:c9:69:d4:de vga0: rev 0x01 int a irq 11 on pci0.12.0 chip0: rev 0x15 on pci0.14.0 chip2: rev 0x05 on pci0.20.0 chip3: rev 0x06 on pci0.25.0 chip4: rev 0x06 on pci0.26.0 Probing for devices on PCI bus 1: ahc0: rev 0x00 int a irq 10 on pci1.10.0 ahc0: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc0: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0 sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0: Direct-Access 2061MB (4222640 512 byte sectors) ahc1: rev 0x00 int a irq 11 on pci1.11.0 ahc1: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc1: Host Adapter Bios disabled. Using default SCSI device parameters ahc1: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus1 at ahc1 bus 0 ahc2: rev 0x00 int a irq 10 on pci1.12.0 ahc2: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc2: Host Adapter Bios disabled. Using default SCSI device parameters ahc2: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus2 at ahc2 bus 0 Probing for devices on PCI bus 2: Probing for devices on PCI bus 3: Probing for devices on PCI bus 4: Probing for devices on PCI bus 5: Probing for devices on PCI bus 6: Probing for devices on PCI bus 7: Probing for devices on PCI bus 8: Probing for devices on PCI bus 9: Probing for devices on PCI bus 10: Probing for devices on PCI bus 11: Probing for devices on PCI bus 12: Probing for devices on PCI bus 13: Probing for devices on PCI bus 14: Probing for devices on PCI bus 15: Probing for devices on PCI bus 16: Probing for devices on PCI bus 17: Probing for devices on PCI bus 18: Probing for devices on PCI bus 19: Probing for devices on PCI bus 20: Probing for devices on PCI bus 21: Probing for devices on PCI bus 22: Probing for devices on PCI bus 23: Probing for devices on PCI bus 24: Probing for devices on PCI bus 25: Probing for devices on PCI bus 26: Probing for devices on PCI bus 27: 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Probing for devices on PCI bus 85: Probing for devices on PCI bus 86: Probing for devices on PCI bus 87: Probing for devices on PCI bus 88: Probing for devices on PCI bus 89: Probing for devices on PCI bus 90: Probing for devices on PCI bus 91: Probing for devices on PCI bus 92: Probing for devices on PCI bus 93: Probing for devices on PCI bus 94: Probing for devices on PCI bus 95: Probing for devices on PCI bus 96: Probing for devices on PCI bus 97: Probing for devices on PCI bus 98: Probing for devices on PCI bus 99: Probing for devices on PCI bus 100: Probing for devices on PCI bus 101: Probing for devices on PCI bus 102: Probing for devices on PCI bus 103: Probing for devices on PCI bus 104: Probing for devices on PCI bus 105: Probing for devices on PCI bus 106: Probing for devices on PCI bus 107: Probing for devices on PCI bus 108: Probing for devices on PCI bus 109: Probing for devices on PCI bus 110: Probing for devices on PCI bus 111: Probing for devices on PCI bus 112: Probing for devices on PCI bus 113: Probing for devices on PCI bus 114: Probing for devices on PCI bus 115: Probing for devices on PCI bus 116: Probing for devices on PCI bus 117: Probing for devices on PCI bus 118: Probing for devices on PCI bus 119: Probing for devices on PCI bus 120: Probing for devices on PCI bus 121: Probing for devices on PCI bus 122: Probing for devices on PCI bus 123: Probing for devices on PCI bus 124: Probing for devices on PCI bus 125: Probing for devices on PCI bus 126: Probing for devices on PCI bus 127: Probing for devices on PCI bus 128: Probing for devices on PCI bus 129: Probing for devices on PCI bus 130: Probing for devices on PCI bus 131: Probing for devices on PCI bus 132: Probing for devices on PCI bus 133: Probing for devices on PCI bus 134: Probing for devices on PCI bus 135: Probing for devices on PCI bus 136: Probing for devices on PCI bus 137: Probing for devices on PCI bus 138: Probing for devices on PCI bus 139: Probing for devices on PCI bus 140: Probing for devices on PCI bus 141: Probing for devices on PCI bus 142: Probing for devices on PCI bus 143: Probing for devices on PCI bus 144: Probing for devices on PCI bus 145: Probing for devices on PCI bus 146: Probing for devices on PCI bus 147: Probing for devices on PCI bus 148: Probing for devices on PCI bus 149: Probing for devices on PCI bus 150: Probing for devices on PCI bus 151: Probing for devices on PCI bus 152: Probing for devices on PCI bus 153: Probing for devices on PCI bus 154: Probing for devices on PCI bus 155: Probing for devices on PCI bus 156: Probing for devices on PCI bus 157: Probing for devices on PCI bus 158: Probing for devices on PCI bus 159: Probing for devices on PCI bus 160: Probing for devices on PCI bus 161: Probing for devices on PCI bus 162: Probing for devices on PCI bus 163: Probing for devices on PCI bus 164: Probing for devices on PCI bus 165: Probing for devices on PCI bus 166: Probing for devices on PCI bus 167: Probing for devices on PCI bus 168: Probing for devices on PCI bus 169: Probing for devices on PCI bus 170: Probing for devices on PCI bus 171: Probing for devices on PCI bus 172: Probing for devices on PCI bus 173: Probing for devices on PCI bus 174: Probing for devices on PCI bus 175: Probing for devices on PCI bus 176: Probing for devices on PCI bus 177: Probing for devices on PCI bus 178: Probing for devices on PCI bus 179: Probing for devices on PCI bus 180: Probing for devices on PCI bus 181: Probing for devices on PCI bus 182: Probing for devices on PCI bus 183: Probing for devices on PCI bus 184: Probing for devices on PCI bus 185: Probing for devices on PCI bus 186: Probing for devices on PCI bus 187: Probing for devices on PCI bus 188: Probing for devices on PCI bus 189: Probing for devices on PCI bus 190: Probing for devices on PCI bus 191: Probing for devices on PCI bus 192: Probing for devices on PCI bus 193: Probing for devices on PCI bus 194: Probing for devices on PCI bus 195: Probing for devices on PCI bus 196: Probing for devices on PCI bus 197: Probing for devices on PCI bus 198: Probing for devices on PCI bus 199: Probing for devices on PCI bus 200: Probing for devices on PCI bus 201: Probing for devices on PCI bus 202: Probing for devices on PCI bus 203: Probing for devices on PCI bus 204: Probing for devices on PCI bus 205: Probing for devices on PCI bus 206: Probing for devices on PCI bus 207: Probing for devices on PCI bus 208: Probing for devices on PCI bus 209: Probing for devices on PCI bus 210: Probing for devices on PCI bus 211: Probing for devices on PCI bus 212: Probing for devices on PCI bus 213: Probing for devices on PCI bus 214: Probing for devices on PCI bus 215: Probing for devices on PCI bus 216: Probing for devices on PCI bus 217: Probing for devices on PCI bus 218: Probing for devices on PCI bus 219: Probing for devices on PCI bus 220: Probing for devices on PCI bus 221: Probing for devices on PCI bus 222: Probing for devices on PCI bus 223: Probing for devices on PCI bus 224: Probing for devices on PCI bus 225: Probing for devices on PCI bus 226: Probing for devices on PCI bus 227: Probing for devices on PCI bus 228: Probing for devices on PCI bus 229: Probing for devices on PCI bus 230: Probing for devices on PCI bus 231: Probing for devices on PCI bus 232: Probing for devices on PCI bus 233: Probing for devices on PCI bus 234: Probing for devices on PCI bus 235: Probing for devices on PCI bus 236: Probing for devices on PCI bus 237: Probing for devices on PCI bus 238: Probing for devices on PCI bus 239: Probing for devices on PCI bus 240: Probing for devices on PCI bus 241: Probing for devices on PCI bus 242: Probing for devices on PCI bus 243: Probing for devices on PCI bus 244: Probing for devices on PCI bus 245: Probing for devices on PCI bus 246: Probing for devices on PCI bus 247: Probing for devices on PCI bus 248: Probing for devices on PCI bus 249: Probing for devices on PCI bus 250: Probing for devices on PCI bus 251: Probing for devices on PCI bus 252: Probing for devices on PCI bus 253: Probing for devices on PCI bus 254: Probing for devices on PCI bus 255: Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard psm0: device ID 0 fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in bt0 not found at 0x330 uha0 not found at 0x330 aha0 not found at 0x330 aic0 not found at 0x340 nca0 not found at 0x1f88 nca1 not found at 0x350 sea0 not found npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface changing root device to sd0a WARNING: / was not properly dismounted. -- jwd@unx.sas.com (w) John W. De Boskey (919) 677-8000 x6915 From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 05:31:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA11285 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 05:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from groa.uct.ac.za (groa.uct.ac.za [137.158.128.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA11270; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 05:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rv by groa.uct.ac.za with local (Exim 1.653 #1) id 0wwoAG-0006sF-00; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:29:08 +0200 Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp To: jwd@unx.sas.com (John W. DeBoskey) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:29:08 +0200 (SAT) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-smp@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199708081208.AA04989@iluvatar.unx.sas.com> from "John W. DeBoskey" at Aug 8, 97 08:08:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Message-Id: From: Russell Vincent Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk John W. DeBoskey wrote: > I have the 3.0-970731-SNAP installed on a Dell PowerEdge 6100/200, > four processor machine. The problem occurs on either of the two > aic7880 onboard scsi devices, or a 2940 adapter board, when in > multi-proccessor mode. Anywhere from 5 to 60 minutes after booting > the machine, it freezes with the following messages on the console: I was just about to report the exact same problem. A kernel from before mid-July (sorry, don't have the exact date) works fine. Kernels in the last week have all exhibited the same problem - I have tried various up until yesterday. The disk errors only start after some time (30 minutes to a few hours) and with heavy disk and CPU usage. My dmesg appended. -Russell --------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Tue Jul 22 10:43:10 SAT 1997 root@disa.uni.net.za:/usr/src/sys/compile/UNINET CPU: Pentium (586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x3bf real memory = 268435456 (262144K bytes) avail memory = 261255168 (255132K bytes) FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor motherboard cpu0 (BSP): apic id: 0, version: 0x00030010, at 0xfee00000 cpu1 (AP): apic id: 1, version: 0x00030010, at 0xfee00000 io0 (APIC): apic id: 2, version: 0x000f0011, at 0xfec00000 eisa0: Probing for devices on the EISA bus Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x01 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x05 on pci0.7.0 de0: rev 0x11 int a irq 9 on pci0.9.0 de0: SMC 21041 [10Mb/s] pass 1.1 de0: address 00:00:c0:35:5e:d6 ahc0: rev 0x00 int a irq 12 on pci0.10.0 ahc0: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc0: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0 sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0: Direct-Access 2050MB (4199760 512 byte sectors) sd0: with 3907 cyls, 10 heads, and an average 107 sectors/track sd1 at scbus0 target 1 lun 0 sd1: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd1: Direct-Access 4101MB (8399520 512 byte sectors) sd1: with 3907 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 107 sectors/track sd2 at scbus0 target 2 lun 0 sd2: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd2: Direct-Access 4101MB (8399520 512 byte sectors) sd2: with 3907 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 107 sectors/track ahc1: rev 0x00 int a irq 10 on pci0.11.0 ahc1: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc1: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus1 at ahc1 bus 0 sd3 at scbus1 target 0 lun 0 sd3: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd3: Direct-Access 4303MB (8813920 512 byte sectors) sd3: with 3907 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 112 sectors/track sd4 at scbus1 target 1 lun 0 sd4: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd4: Direct-Access 4101MB (8399520 512 byte sectors) sd4: with 3907 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 107 sectors/track ahc2: rev 0x00 int a irq 11 on pci0.12.0 ahc2: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc2: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus2 at ahc2 bus 0 sd5 at scbus2 target 0 lun 0 sd5: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd5: Direct-Access 4101MB (8399520 512 byte sectors) sd5: with 3907 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 107 sectors/track sd6 at scbus2 target 1 lun 0 sd6: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd6: Direct-Access 4101MB (8399520 512 byte sectors) sd6: with 3907 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 107 sectors/track Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface stray irq 7 de0: enabling 10baseT port ccd0-3: Concatenated disk drivers SMP: All idle procs online. SMP: *** AUTO *** starting 1st AP! SMP: AP CPU #1 LAUNCHED!! Starting Scheduling... SMP: TADA! CPU #1 made it into the scheduler!. SMP: All 2 CPU's are online! de0: enabling 10baseT port From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 07:57:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA22674 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haywire.csuhayward.edu (bsampley@haywire.csuhayward.edu [134.154.5.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA22666 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by haywire.csuhayward.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA06322; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:00:39 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:00:38 -0700 (PDT) From: BURTON SAMPLEY To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I just had to take a small amount of bandwidth to throw in my $20.00 (2 cents adjusted for inflation) I presently have a WD 1.6 & 3.1 EIDE drives. I was using 3.0 current, but recently down-graded to 2.2.2-R. I would love to give these drives the 'roof test' and go to SCSI but I have this common problem among college students (called 'empty wallet disease'). FYI - stay away from WD!!! I know too many people that have run into problems with these drives, myself included. My father has a 1.2 drive which had to be replaced by WD when it was only 8 months old due to media failure. My 1.6 drive was also only 8 months old when I had a similar problem. Both drives were purchased from different retailers about 1 year apart. Even though the drives were replaced, I just can not trust WD again. As for the comparison of EIDE and SCSI, wouldn't make world times be a better benchmark? With a P5-133 (on an ASUS P/I P55T2P4), 128MB 60NS EDO RAM, 1.6 & 3.1 EIDE drives, the last time I did make world (around July 1, with nothing else running) it took about 5.5 hours. I seem to recall faster times from people with similar hardware but using SCSI disks. To me, make world is more of a 'real world' type of measurement for the drive. Burton From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 08:43:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA24930 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24925 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00550 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708081543.IAA00550@austin.polstra.com> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Philippe Charnier In-Reply-To: <199708051358.JAA16647@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> References: <199708051358.JAA16647@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 08:43:36 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I'd like to propose a public round of thanks to Philippe for going > through all the utilities and fixing their man pages, usage functions, > and whatnot to conform to the standards. It's this sort of scut-work > that most of us try to avoid, and I'm glad to see someone willing to > do it anyway... Does anybody find it odd that Philippe appeared on the scene around the time that Mike Pritchard vanished? Could it be that they're one and the same person? We weren't born yesterday, Philippe/Mike. :-O Whatever you call yourself this month -- good work! John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 08:47:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25165 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pahtoh.cwu.edu (root@pahtoh.cwu.edu [198.104.65.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25159 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opus.cts.cwu.edu (skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu [198.104.92.71]) by pahtoh.cwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08532; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (skynyrd@localhost) by opus.cts.cwu.edu (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA04160; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:47:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Timmons To: ken@tydfam.iijnet.or.jp cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Q) CVSup operation In-Reply-To: <199708080148.KAA02182@tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ken@tydfam.iijnet.or.jp writes: > Chris, thank you for your prompt reply. > > skynyrd> cvsup -P m -g -L 2 supfile.cvsup > ^^^^^ > -P m solved the problem, so You're welcome. Glad it helped out! I know John spent a good bit of time designing and implementing this functionality. > I did nothing with my network for these 6 months, and only did > "make world" every other week automatically. And suddenly I got in > trouble. I have no firewall for this source code archive machine. > > Thank you, anyway. > Although you may not have installed a firewall on your network, the fact that '-P m' made things work does suggest that something has happened somewhere along the end-to-end path from your archive to cvsup.jp.freebsd.org. Cheers! -Chris From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 08:59:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25555 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA25549 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00625 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708081559.IAA00625@austin.polstra.com> To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Q) CVSup operation In-Reply-To: <199708080148.KAA02182@tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp> References: <199708080148.KAA02182@tyd1.tydfam.iijnet.or.jp> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 08:59:28 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I renewed my cvsup using ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/CVSup/cvsup-bin-15.1.tar.gz as you suggested, of which version was; > > $: {1} cvsup -v > CVSup client > Software version: REL_15_1 > Protocol version: 15.2 > > While my previous version from ports collection was; > > $: {1} cvsup -v > CVSup client > Software version: REL_15_1 > Protocol version: 15.1 No way! Surely the software version of your older copy was REL_15_0. I never change the protocol version (or anything else) without changing the software version too. John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 09:10:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26276 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sos.freebsd.dk (sos.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26259 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sos@localhost) by sos.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.7.3) id SAA02533; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:10:38 +0200 (MEST) From: Sřren Schmidt Message-Id: <199708081610.SAA02533@sos.freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) In-Reply-To: from BURTON SAMPLEY at "Aug 8, 97 08:00:38 am" To: bsampley@haywire.csuhayward.edu (BURTON SAMPLEY) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:10:38 +0200 (MEST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In reply to BURTON SAMPLEY who wrote: > > As for the comparison of EIDE and SCSI, wouldn't make world times be a > better benchmark? With a P5-133 (on an ASUS P/I P55T2P4), 128MB 60NS EDO > RAM, 1.6 & 3.1 EIDE drives, the last time I did make world (around July 1, > with nothing else running) it took about 5.5 hours. I seem to recall > faster times from people with similar hardware but using SCSI disks. To > me, make world is more of a 'real world' type of measurement for the > drive. Hmm, on my HW (P6@233/64Mb/2*Maxtor84000A6) I got a 10% improvement from ~45mins to ~40mins for a make world... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Sřren Schmidt (sos@FreeBSD.org) FreeBSD Core Team Even more code to hack -- will it ever end .. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 09:13:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26498 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26463; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA21228; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:12:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970808111245.30561@pmr.com> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:12:45 -0500 From: Bob Willcox To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: Atipa , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Thu, Aug 07, 1997 at 11:27:18PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I get some rather curious results with the program that John posted in his email (the one to time command overhead, etc.). I have 8 SCSI drives (sorry, I'm IDE phobic :-) on my workstation here with two NCR (Symbios) based SCSI controllers (one 810, the other 875) that give me the following results when running said program on them. Note that the dd command run was: dd bs=64k count=1600 if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null on each drive. sd0 (SEAGATE ST12550N 0014 on 810 controller): Program results: Command overhead is 1005 usec (time_4096 = 2181, time_8192 = 3358) transfer speed is 3.48128e+06 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 19.621211 secs (5344094 bytes/sec) sd1 (SEAGATE ST32430N 0510 on 810 controller): Program results: Command overhead is -8610 usec (time_4096 = 1312, time_8192 = 11236) transfer speed is 412762 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 18.049659 secs (5809395 bytes/sec) sd2 (SEAGATE ST32430N 0510 on 810 controller): Program results: Command overhead is -8481 usec (time_4096 = 1313, time_8192 = 11108) transfer speed is 418154 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 18.125932 secs (5784949 bytes/sec) sd3 (FUJITSU M1606S-512 6218 on 810 controller): Program results: Command overhead is 11101 usec (time_4096 = 11106, time_8192 = 11111) transfer speed is 7.94723e+08 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 23.335624 secs (4493456 bytes/sec) sd4 (FUJITSU M1606S-512 6218 on 810 controller): Program results: Command overhead is 11081 usec (time_4096 = 11110, time_8192 = 11140) transfer speed is 1.37759e+08 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 23.325748 secs (4495359 bytes/sec) sd5 (Quantum XP32150 81HB on 875 controller): Program results: Command overhead is 436 usec (time_4096 = 928, time_8192 = 1420) transfer speed is 8.32365e+06 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 15.045864 secs (6969198 bytes/sec) sd6 (CONNER CFP4207W 4.28GB 1524 on 875 controller): Program results: Command overhead is 8383 usec (time_4096 = 8424, time_8192 = 8465) transfer speed is 1.00552e+08 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 15.943513 secs (6576819 bytes/sec) sd7 (Quantum XP32150 576D on 875 controller): Program results: Command overhead is 540 usec (time_4096 = 965, time_8192 = 1390) transfer speed is 9.64218e+06 bytes/sec dd results: 104857600 bytes transferred in 15.646630 secs (6701609 bytes/sec) The first thing I noticed was that the command overhead times were significantly & consistently higher with certain disks. But what really through me was that some of them are negative! Take a look at sd1 & sd2. The 8k read times are almost an order of magnitude greater than the 4k times. Is it possible I'm seeing the results of some bazaar cache behavior in these disks (there 2gb Seagate Hawks)? Also, I noticed that for the disks with the outrageously high command overhead times (sd3, sd4, & sd6) that the dd times are in the range of what I expected. Also, when I modified the program to read sequential blocks, rather than offset zero repetitively, I get the following (improved) results: sd3: Command overhead is 684 usec (time_4096 = 1264, time_8192 = 1843) transfer speed is 7.06559e+06 bytes/sec sd4: Command overhead is 693 usec (time_4096 = 1264, time_8192 = 1836) transfer speed is 7.16623e+06 bytes/sec sd6: Command overhead is 1038 usec (time_4096 = 1323, time_8192 = 1607) transfer speed is 1.44067e+07 bytes/sec Anybody have any ideas on what's happening here? Perhaps the disks caching algorthms were designed to optimize sequential reads (e.g., emphasis on read ahead) rather than repetitively reading the same block (which isn't too likely with a reasonable OS). Thanks, -- Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 09:18:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26715 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA26710 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rover.village.org [127.0.0.1] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.60 #1) id 0wwrjM-0007Z5-00; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:17:36 -0600 To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Aug 1997 23:27:18 CDT." <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 10:17:36 -0600 From: Warner Losh Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708080427.XAA02012@dyson.iquest.net> "John S. Dyson" writes: : out-perform an IDE system -- however, 4GB for about $300 is very : tempting. A good I've found that IDE drives are great for when you need to keep large amounts of data online, but don't necessarily need that to be hugely fast. They perform OK on world build boxes, but SCSI has been better by 20% or so for me. My OpenBSD and NetBSD source trees on my FreeBSD box live either on IDE or on a JAZ cart. Given the cost of IDE drives these days, it is a lot cheaper and easier to migrate towards using cheap IDE drives for my big storage needs and away from the JAZ drive for that. As always, backups for a system are critical :-) Warner From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 09:33:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27319 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27254; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.8.6/8.8.5) id JAA03485; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:34:30 GMT From: Steve Kargl Message-Id: <199708080934.JAA03485@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-Reply-To: <199708081208.AA04989@iluvatar.unx.sas.com> from "John W. DeBoskey" at "Aug 8, 97 08:08:50 am" To: jwd@unx.sas.com (John W. DeBoskey) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 09:34:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-smp@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to John W. DeBoskey: > Hello, > > I'm wondering if anyone might have some information relating to the > following problem. > > I have the 3.0-970731-SNAP installed on a Dell PowerEdge 6100/200, > four processor machine. The problem occurs on either of the two > aic7880 onboard scsi devices, or a 2940 adapter board, when in > multi-proccessor mode. Anywhere from 5 to 60 minutes after booting > the machine, it freezes with the following messages on the console: > > sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed out in command pahse, SCSISIGI == 0x86 > SEQADDR = 0x8c SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x7 SSTAT1 = 0x3 > sd0: abort message in message buffer > sd0: SCB 1 - Abort Completed. > sd0: no longer in timeout > sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed our while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI = 0x0 > SEQADDR = 0xb SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0x2 > sd0: Queueing an Abort SCB > > > It only seems to occur when I start to initiate heavy disk io. It > does not happen in the uni-proccesor situation. The complete output > from dmesg is appended to this mail. If anyone can help me track this > down, I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks, > John > It occurs on uni-processor system, too. If I use dump(1) to backup my system, I eventually get the following: st0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 SEQADDR = 0x5 SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0xa st0(ahc0:2:0): Queueing an Abort SCB st0(ahc0:2:0): Abort Message Sent st0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0 - Abort Completed. st0(ahc0:2:0): no longer in timeout st0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out in dataout phase, SCSISIGI == 0xc6 SEQADDR = 0x42 SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x7 SSTAT1 = 0x13 sd0(ahc0:0:0): abort message in message buffer sd0(ahc0:0:0): SCB 3 - Abort Completed. sd0(ahc0:0:0): no longer in timeout st0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 SEQADDR = 0x5 SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0xa st0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0: Immediate reset. Flags = 0x1 ahc0: Issued Channel A Bus Reset. 3 SCBs aborted Clearing bus reset Clearing 'in-reset' flag st0(ahc0:2:0): no longer in timeout sd0(ahc0:0:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred, retries:3 sd1(ahc0:1:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 sd1(ahc0:1:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred, retries:4 >From dmesg: ahc0: rev 0x03 int a irq 11 on pci0.12.0 ahc0: aic7870 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc0: waiting for scsi devices to settle scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0 sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0: Direct-Access 1030MB (2109840 512 byte sectors) st0 at scbus0 target 2 lun 0 st0: type 1 removable SCSI 2 st0: Sequential-Access density code 0x13, drive empty -- Steve finger kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu http://troutmask.apl.washington.edu/~kargl/sgk.html From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 10:04:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29127 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@nepal-10.ppp.hooked.net [206.80.8.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28972; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27660; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:01:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:01:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: "John W. DeBoskey" cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-smp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-Reply-To: <199708081208.AA04989@iluvatar.unx.sas.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, John W. DeBoskey wrote: > sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed out in command pahse, SCSISIGI == 0x86 > SEQADDR = 0x8c SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x7 SSTAT1 = 0x3 > sd0: abort message in message buffer > sd0: SCB 1 - Abort Completed. > sd0: no longer in timeout > sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed our while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI = 0x0 > SEQADDR = 0xb SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0x2 > sd0: Queueing an Abort SCB > > > It only seems to occur when I start to initiate heavy disk io. It > does not happen in the uni-proccesor situation. The complete output > from dmesg is appended to this mail. If anyone can help me track this > down, I'd really appreciate it. > > Thanks, > John This is a fairly well known problem with the 2940U/UW, and probably anything else based on the 7880. All I can say is that for heavy disk io, don't use that controller, two controllers might be causing some of those problems too. However I'd also suggest that you take the number of busses down a notch, unless you have devices on bus 255, and that you cvsup the most recent FreeBSD sources,as I think some improvments have been made to this driver, and many improvments have been made to the smp code. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 10:24:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29984 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (root@mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29839; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06615; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:20:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708081720.LAA06615@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Steve Kargl cc: jwd@unx.sas.com (John W. DeBoskey), freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-smp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Aug 1997 09:34:30 GMT." <199708080934.JAA03485@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:20:12 +0000 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >It occurs on uni-processor system, too. If I use dump(1) to backup >my system, I eventually get the following: > >st0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 >SEQADDR = 0x5 SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0xa Do you know if this occurs during the rewind or during some other operation during the backup. These types of problems, at least when a tape drive is the culprit, are almost always caused by one of the timeouts in the driver being too short. For instance, you may have hit a bad tape block and the timeout for reading a tape block is simply too short to deal with the drives attempts to retry the read. >-- >Steve > >finger kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu >http://troutmask.apl.washington.edu/~kargl/sgk.html -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 10:27:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00185 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00177 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA24459; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:23:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708081723.KAA24459@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) To: ggm@connect.com.au (George Michaelson) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:23:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: garbanzo@hooked.net, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7777.871004685@connect.com.au> from "George Michaelson" at Aug 8, 97 11:44:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think it was said in 'insanely great' that shaving 1 second off the > boot time for a Mac over the lifetime of the MacOS is like saving 10 peoples > lifespans in time saved worldwide... This quote is from both the book "Accidental Empires" and the PBS series "Triumph of the Nerds", both by Robert Cringely. I'm a big advocate of giving developers slow hardware to run on, but fast hardware to compile on (unless they are compiler writers, in which case they get slow hardware both places). However, the point isn't that you can, for $9000, soup up a Ford Festiva, but that a Ford Mustang cost less than a Ford Festiva and $9000. There. Jordan should be happy... it's a car analogy. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 10:44:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01347 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01342 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.8.6/8.8.5) id KAA03954; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:47:05 GMT From: Steve Kargl Message-Id: <199708081047.KAA03954@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-Reply-To: <199708081720.LAA06615@pluto.plutotech.com> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at "Aug 8, 97 05:20:12 pm" To: gibbs@plutotech.com (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:47:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Justin T. Gibbs: > >It occurs on uni-processor system, too. If I use dump(1) to backup > >my system, I eventually get the following: > > > >st0(ahc0:2:0): SCB 0x0 - timed out while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI == 0x0 > >SEQADDR = 0x5 SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0xa > > Do you know if this occurs during the rewind or during some other operation > during the backup. These types of problems, at least when a tape drive is > the culprit, are almost always caused by one of the timeouts in the driver > being too short. For instance, you may have hit a bad tape block and the > timeout for reading a tape block is simply too short to deal with the > drives attempts to retry the read. > It occurs during a write to the tape drive. It will also occur when I use restore(1). I should note that if I use tar, then the problem does not occur. The driver did report a MEDIUM ERROR with at least 1 tape. I tried 3 different tapes. Note 1: I have options DDB in my kernel, but the machine does not panic. It just hangs, and a hard reset is necessary. Note 2: In a older version of your driver, use of TAG queuing and SCB were kernel option. If I did not enable TAG and SCB, dump and restore worked. Is there some kernel option that can be set to disable TAG queuing and SCB for a specific device? -- Steve finger kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu http://troutmask.apl.washington.edu/~kargl/sgk.html From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 10:54:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01832 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01827; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA24525; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:48:04 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708081748.KAA24525@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) To: sos@sos.freebsd.dk (Sřren Schmidt) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:48:03 -0700 (MST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, tom@uniserve.com, freebsd@atipa.com, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, ggm@connect.com.au, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199708080710.JAA01517@sos.freebsd.dk> from "Sřren Schmidt" at Aug 8, 97 09:10:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sigh... the "SCSI is too expensive" argument is still bogus. The only valid arguments are (1) it is a higher up front cost (unless you actually get *quality* IDE hardware, then it's the same) and (2) international costs are higher if you buy from local dealers (since you have to pay to get it shipped internationally anyway; you're just paying the dealer instead of the shipper). > You can actually build a 28G fileserver with 4 of the new Maxtor 7G > drives for less than US$ 1800 for the drives. Add a decent mother > board and a netcard and you have a very nice ftp/web/whatever server > for less that US$ 3000. Beat that! I have a Dual Pentium box (ASUS) with 32M of RAM, NCR PCI SCSI 2, a 4M S3 964 PCI card, DEC ethernet PCI card, and DEC SCSI drives. It cost ~$2000, both processors installed, with a 3v/5v power supply and a tower case. The machine is only ever down for me to reboot a new kernel, or, recently, to install a 1G JAZ drive (~$200) and a 9G 7200 RPM 3 1/2 IBM drive (~$650 from www.onsale.com, ~6ms avg. access). Once, I had to replace the power supply fan. Other than that, it has been powered on continuously for nearly two years now. Two *YEARS*. It has never had a hardware failure other than the fan (all power supply fans are designed to fail anyway; it's expected). What is the MTBF on IDE? IDE drives are only now getting to the point where they rival the speed of this 2 year old SCSI combo. What if you want to add a JAZ drive? A CDROM drive? A tape backup? For 2 of three of these, you will be installing another controller. If you have 2 hard drives, you will be installing another controller. If you want a DVD CDROM drive or a JAZ drive, you will be installing a SCSI controller. If you want a fast scanner, you will be installing a SCSI controller. A tiny investment up front (if you are silly enough to buy a motherboard without onboard SCSI... many have AHA2940 family chips on them today) and you have a *serious* amount of expandability that IDE just doesn't buy you. Plus if you go to explicit termination (cable terminator & external connector terminator), you will have *zero* termination problems (I have *zero* termination problems). In addition, it is trivial for me to use the "turbo" switch connected to a .100 cdrom sound cable connector to allow me to switch the JAZ drive between ID's 0 and 2 (JAZ drives read their SCSI Id's once at power-on), and boot multiple OS's. Try *that* with an IDE drive on a secondary controller once your two measley channels on your primary controller are used up by your boot drive and your CDROM drive... Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 10:55:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01898 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01721 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with UUCP id TAA17162; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:30:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id TAA26987; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970808192030.09468@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:20:30 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE=CF=D7?= Cc: FreeBSD-current Subject: Re: Easy way to panic -current (procfs), any user can References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3CPine=2EBSF=2E3=2E96=2E970805160111=2E231A-100000=40nag?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?ual=2Epp=2Eru=3E=3B_from_=E1=CE=C4=D2=C5=CA_=FE=C5=D2=CE?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=CF=D7_on_Tue=2C_Aug_05=2C_1997_at_04=3A14=3A46PM_+0400?= X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Aug 05, 1997 at 04:14:46PM +0400, áÎÄŇĹĘ ţĹŇÎĎ× wrote: > Start this three lines in background or on other screen and produce some > additional activity, compilations or grep are enough > > while(1) > cat /proc/1/map > end > > pmap_extract panic will follows within a minute. Here not (~10 minutes). With 2 rsa crack jobs, 1 find / -print, one compile job, reading -current mailing list => load 4-5. -current kernel of today. -- Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 10:59:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA02238 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02228 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28782; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:59:09 +0400 (MSD) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:59:03 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: Andreas Klemm cc: FreeBSD-current Subject: Re: Easy way to panic -current (procfs), any user can In-Reply-To: <19970808192030.09468@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=KOI8-R Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > On Tue, Aug 05, 1997 at 04:14:46PM +0400, áÎÄŇĹĘ ţĹŇÎĎ× wrote: > > Start this three lines in background or on other screen and produce some > > additional activity, compilations or grep are enough > > > > while(1) > > cat /proc/1/map > > end > > > > pmap_extract panic will follows within a minute. > > Here not (~10 minutes). > With 2 rsa crack jobs, 1 find / -print, one compile job, > reading -current mailing list => load 4-5. > > -current kernel of today. Maybe Dyson fix or mask it with his vm_zone changes, I not test yet very recent -current. I'll inform when I'll test. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 11:04:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02601 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wiley.csusb.edu (wiley.csusb.edu [139.182.2.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02595 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wwong@localhost) by wiley.csusb.edu (8.8.5/8.6.11) id LAA21141; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:03:50 -0700 (PDT) From: William Wong Message-Id: <199708081803.LAA21141@wiley.csusb.edu> Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) To: bsampley@haywire.csuhayward.edu (BURTON SAMPLEY) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "BURTON SAMPLEY" at Aug 8, 97 08:00:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I just had to take a small amount of bandwidth to throw in my $20.00 (2 > cents adjusted for inflation) > > I presently have a WD 1.6 & 3.1 EIDE drives. I was using 3.0 current, but > recently down-graded to 2.2.2-R. > > I would love to give these drives the 'roof test' and go to SCSI but I > have this common problem among college students (called 'empty wallet > disease'). FYI - stay away from WD!!! I know too many people that have > run into problems with these drives, myself included. My father has a 1.2 > drive which had to be replaced by WD when it was only 8 months old due to > media failure. My 1.6 drive was also only 8 months old when I had a > similar problem. Both drives were purchased from different retailers > about 1 year apart. Even though the drives were replaced, I just can not > trust WD again. > > As for the comparison of EIDE and SCSI, wouldn't make world times be a > better benchmark? With a P5-133 (on an ASUS P/I P55T2P4), 128MB 60NS EDO > RAM, 1.6 & 3.1 EIDE drives, the last time I did make world (around July 1, > with nothing else running) it took about 5.5 hours. I seem to recall > faster times from people with similar hardware but using SCSI disks. To > me, make world is more of a 'real world' type of measurement for the > drive. > > Burton > > > > My Intel P5-133 overclocked to 166 (83Mhz bus speed) on an ASUS P/I P55T2P4 with 64MB 60NS EDO (Toshiba) does make world in about 3.1 hours. This is using just 1 Seagate barracuda 32550N controlled by an Adaptec 2940UW. This is on 2.2.2-R. -- William T. Wong Cal State University, San Bernardino Phone: (909) 880-7281 email: wwong@wiley.csusb.edu From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 14:03:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13631 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13588 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA26186; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:55:58 +0200 (CEST) To: Bill Paul cc: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm), current@freebsd.org From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: httpd in free(): warning: modified (page-) pointer. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Aug 1997 02:24:07 EDT." <199708010624.CAA12780@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 16:55:58 +0200 Message-ID: <26184.871052158@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <199708010624.CAA12780@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu>, Bill Paul writes: > > o Electric Fence works by using mmap() to allocate memory instead > of brk()/sbrk(). To trap out of bounds references, it allocates > an extra page of memory immediately after the memory requested > with malloc()/calloc()/etc and uses mprotect() to disallow > read and write access to it. This is why a similar feature hasn't been implemented into phkmalloc yet, it would only give page size granularity, ie, you have to overrun by a LOT before you can figure it out, I tried it, and it didn't find one single problem in the two months I ran with it so I ditched it. (Electric Fence does much more than this though) I have a proof-of-concept patch that makes the kernel and the VM system do the "Purify" memory-coloring thing. I basically keep a shadow process which has in its address space the color of it's "mate" memory, byte for byte. It's very hairy and ugly, but it seems to work pretty good, although it is horribly slow, in that 92% of the memory accesses outside the text segment triggers a page fault. You can do the same thing with ptrace all in user-land, but that is even slower since you have the additional overhead of two context switches per instruction... There is probably 2 manmonths work in it, before it is any good :-( -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 14:17:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14834 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (critter.phk.freebsd.dk [195.8.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14821 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA00293 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:16:34 +0200 (CEST) To: current@freebsd.org Subject: a machine with two ISA-busses... From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 23:16:33 +0200 Message-ID: <291.871074993@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk All this time we have said that we would have one (going to zero) ISA busses to deal with. Well, look at this dmesg output from my HP800CT when attached to it's docking station: "Chip4" is actually bridging off to another ISA bus in the dockingstation. Two ISA busses, what a nightmare... Poul-Henning Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #1: Fri Aug 8 22:59:45 CEST 1997 root@critter.dk.tfs.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/CX CPU: Pentium (131.73-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x52c Stepping=12 Features=0x1bf real memory = 50331648 (49152K bytes) avail memory = 46632960 (45540K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x03 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x03 on pci0.1.0 chip2: rev 0x02 on pci0.2.0 vga0: rev 0x01 int a irq 0 on pci0.3.0 pcic0: rev 0x04 int a irq 255 on pci0.4.0 pcic1: rev 0x04 int b irq 255 on pci0.4.1 chip3: rev 0x02 int a irq 10 on pci0.6.0 Probing for devices on PCI bus 1: ncr0: rev 0x11 int a irq 10 on pci1.0.0 ncr0: minsync=25, maxsync=206, maxoffs=8, 16 dwords burst, normal dma fifo scbus0 at ncr0 bus 0 chip4: rev 0x00 on pci1.5.0 en0: rev 0x02 int a irq 15 on pci1.6.0 en0: ATM midway v0, board IDs 0.13, Utopia (pipelined), 512KB on-board RAM en0: passed 64 byte DMA test en0: 7 32KB receive buffers, 8 32KB transmit buffers allocated Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: Graphics display (VESA mode = 0x102) <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> pccard driver ed added ed0 not found at 0x280 pccard driver sio added sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface psm0 at 0x60-0x64 irq 12 on motherboard psm0: device ID 0 fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: NEC 72065B fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 flags 0xc0ff on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): , 32-bit, multi-block-16, sleep-hack wd0: 1378MB (2822400 sectors), 2800 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S npx0 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface apm0 flags 0x31 on isa apm: found APM BIOS version 1.2 device combination doesn't support shared irq4 intr_connect(irq4) failed, result=-1 device combination doesn't support shared irq7 intr_connect(irq7) failed, result=-1 device combination doesn't support shared irq10 intr_connect(irq10) failed, result=-1 device combination doesn't support shared irq12 intr_connect(irq12) failed, result=-1 device combination doesn't support shared irq14 intr_connect(irq14) failed, result=-1 device combination doesn't support shared irq15 intr_connect(irq15) failed, result=-1 PC-Card VLSI 82C146 (5 mem & 2 I/O windows) pcic: controller irq 3 Start pid=2 Start pid=3 Start pid=4 cmd XF86_VGA16 pid 161 tried to use non-present SYSVSHM -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 14:22:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA15192 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA15181 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA29053; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:18:26 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199708082118.OAA29053@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: httpd in free(): warning: modified (page-) pointer. To: phk@dk.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:18:26 -0700 (MST) Cc: wpaul@skynet.ctr.columbia.edu, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, current@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <26184.871052158@critter.dk.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Aug 8, 97 04:55:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > o Electric Fence works by using mmap() to allocate memory instead > > of brk()/sbrk(). To trap out of bounds references, it allocates > > an extra page of memory immediately after the memory requested > > with malloc()/calloc()/etc and uses mprotect() to disallow > > read and write access to it. > > This is why a similar feature hasn't been implemented into phkmalloc > yet, it would only give page size granularity, ie, you have to overrun > by a LOT before you can figure it out, I tried it, and it didn't find > one single problem in the two months I ran with it so I ditched it. It would be hard to underruns without a whole lot of code, but overrruns (the most common case anyway, IMO) could be handled by allocating the memory and returning the pointer so the end is on the page boundry (followed by an unmapped page). This would actually be pretty trivial to do, I think. The real problem, I suppose, is that you would not want the code active all the time (sort of implied by where you tried this?). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 14:41:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16311 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA16302; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06314; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd006311; Fri Aug 8 21:37:55 1997 Message-ID: <33EB912D.13728473@whistle.com> Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 14:35:41 -0700 From: Julian Elischer Organization: Whistle Communications X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: current@freebsd.org CC: dyson@freebsd.org Subject: tunable quantum patch for review Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2C67412E284797A9500F9F30" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2C67412E284797A9500F9F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We use this at whistle. john Dyson said he'd like it included.. So I've cleaned it up a bit (we didn't check against a 0 value) any objections before I add it? julian --------------2C67412E284797A9500F9F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xx" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xx" Index: kern_synch.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/kern/kern_synch.c,v retrieving revision 1.31 diff -c -r1.31 kern_synch.c *** kern_synch.c 1997/04/26 11:46:15 1.31 --- kern_synch.c 1997/08/08 21:33:16 *************** *** 51,56 **** --- 51,57 ---- #include #include #include + #include #include #include #include *************** *** 69,74 **** --- 70,98 ---- extern void endtsleep __P((void *)); extern void updatepri __P((struct proc *p)); + #define MAXIMUM_SCHEDULE_QUANTUM (1000000) /* arbitrary limit */ + #ifndef DEFAULT_SCHEDULE_QUANTUM + #define DEFAULT_SCHEDULE_QUANTUM 10 + #endif + static int quantum = DEFAULT_SCHEDULE_QUANTUM; /* default value */ + + static int + sysctl_kern_quantum SYSCTL_HANDLER_ARGS + { + int error; + int new_val = quantum; + + new_val = quantum; + error = sysctl_handle_int(oidp, &new_val, 0, req); + if ((error == 0) && (new_val > 0) && (new_val < MAXIMUM_SCHEDULE_QUANTUM)) { + quantum = new_val; + } + return (error); + } + + SYSCTL_PROC(_kern, OID_AUTO, quantum, CTLTYPE_INT|CTLFLAG_RW, + 0, sizeof quantum, sysctl_kern_quantum, "I", ""); + /* * Force switch among equal priority processes every 100ms. */ *************** *** 79,85 **** { need_resched(); ! timeout(roundrobin, NULL, hz / 10); } /* --- 103,109 ---- { need_resched(); ! timeout(roundrobin, NULL, hz / quantum); } /* --------------2C67412E284797A9500F9F30-- From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 17:18:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25045 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25040 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28233; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:15:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:15:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Alex cc: "John W. DeBoskey" , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Alex wrote: > On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, John W. DeBoskey wrote: > > > sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed out in command pahse, SCSISIGI == 0x86 > > SEQADDR = 0x8c SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x7 SSTAT1 = 0x3 > > sd0: abort message in message buffer > > sd0: SCB 1 - Abort Completed. > > sd0: no longer in timeout > > sd0: SCB 0x1 - timed our while idle, LASTPHASE == 0x1, SCSISIGI = 0x0 > > SEQADDR = 0xb SCSISEQ = 0x12 SSTAT0 = 0x5 SSTAT1 = 0x2 > > sd0: Queueing an Abort SCB > > > > > > It only seems to occur when I start to initiate heavy disk io. It > > does not happen in the uni-proccesor situation. The complete output > > from dmesg is appended to this mail. If anyone can help me track this > > down, I'd really appreciate it. > > > > Thanks, > > John > > This is a fairly well known problem with the 2940U/UW, and probably > anything else based on the 7880. All I can say is that for heavy disk io, > don't use that controller, two controllers might be causing some of those > problems too. However I'd also suggest that you take the number of busses > down a notch, unless you have devices on bus 255, and that you cvsup the > most recent FreeBSD sources,as I think some improvments have been made to > this driver, and many improvments have been made to the smp code. > > - alex Well known problem? I've never seen it, even with heavy io on a 3940UW. I use AHC_TAGENABLE, but NOT AHC_SCBPAGING. I don't believe that any changes have been made to the ahc driver lately. I think this problem is device dependant. Certain devices will seize the bus, and driver is unable to get it back. Tom From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 17:24:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25446 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax4-221.ppp.wenet.net [206.169.224.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25431 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07511; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:24:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:24:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Tom cc: "John W. DeBoskey" , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Tom wrote: > > This is a fairly well known problem with the 2940U/UW, and probably > > anything else based on the 7880. All I can say is that for heavy disk io, > > don't use that controller, two controllers might be causing some of those > > problems too. However I'd also suggest that you take the number of busses > > down a notch, unless you have devices on bus 255, and that you cvsup the > > most recent FreeBSD sources,as I think some improvments have been made to > > this driver, and many improvments have been made to the smp code. > > > > - alex > > Well known problem? I've never seen it, even with heavy io on a 3940UW. > I use AHC_TAGENABLE, but NOT AHC_SCBPAGING. I use both with no problems on an aic-7880 (2940UW). However I've seen many reports of people having problems with the 2940U/UW doing this sort of thing under _continuous heavy_ io. However there's a really great explaination of what scb paging is in the aic7xxx driver. Stuff like that deserves a place in either a.) the man pages or b.) the texinfo database (or whatever it's called). > I don't believe that any changes have been made to the ahc driver > lately. True. > I think this problem is device dependant. Certain devices will seize > the bus, and driver is unable to get it back. - alex From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 17:26:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25591 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@sfmax4-221.ppp.wenet.net [206.169.224.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25586 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07525 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:26:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:26:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: 93cx6.c?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I read the comments at the beginning of this file, and it appears to be a serial eeprom driver. So the question is, why's it in the scsi directory? - alex From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 17:26:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA25620 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.uniserve.com (tom@shell.uniserve.com [204.244.210.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA25202; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tom@localhost) by shell.uniserve.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28240; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:17:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell.uniserve.com: tom owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:17:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Steve Kargl cc: "John W. DeBoskey" , freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-smp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-Reply-To: <199708080934.JAA03485@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Steve Kargl wrote: ... > sd1(ahc0:1:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 > sd1(ahc0:1:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred, retries:4 ... > ahc0: waiting for scsi devices to settle > scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0 > sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 > sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > sd0: Direct-Access 1030MB (2109840 512 byte sectors) > st0 at scbus0 target 2 lun 0 > st0: type 1 removable SCSI 2 > st0: Sequential-Access density code 0x13, drive empty What is sd1? Also, are you sure you aren't having cable problems? The fact that all the devices go wacko at the same time is strange. Also, check your power supply. Heavy disk io will draw more power, is your PS cutting out causing the timeouts? > -- > Steve > > finger kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu > http://troutmask.apl.washington.edu/~kargl/sgk.html > Tom From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 18:38:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29345 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (root@mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA29338 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA18122; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:37:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708090137.TAA18122@pluto.plutotech.com> To: Alex cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 93cx6.c?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:26:39 MST." Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 01:37:43 +0000 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I read the comments at the beginning of this file, and it appears to be a >serial eeprom driver. So the question is, why's it in the scsi directory? > >- alex Because it is only used by the aic7xxx.c driver and it's interface, although somewhat generic, may not work for accessing 93cx6 seeproms on other devices. For example, I recently added support to read the seeprom on a 2842 to this code (not yet committed) and I had to make quite a few changes to the interface to make if flexible enough to be shared by the 2842 probe code and the aic78X0 probe code. I believe that the there are quite a few drivers (de??, fxp??) that access a 93cx6, so it may be worth changing the interface to make it even more flexible and making these other drivers use it, but until that happens, I don't think its worth moving it. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 19:11:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01426 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01421 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id VAA12997 for current@freebsd.org.; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:11:48 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708090211.VAA12997@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Doscmd info To: current@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:11:48 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gang, It is likely that the doscmd commits are done. The worst caveat is that it doesn't work on SMP kernels (at least I heard that.) I haven't had a chance to fix or check SMP kernels yet, but I have taken responsibility to do it. (Unless someone else wants to do it.) Good luck!!! John From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 19:45:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02857 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02850; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA25717; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:45:26 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:45:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: Julian Elischer cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tunable quantum patch for review In-Reply-To: <33EB912D.13728473@whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Julian Elischer wrote: > We use this at whistle. > john Dyson said he'd like it included.. > > So I've cleaned it up a bit (we didn't check against a 0 value) > > any objections before I add it? Wow, Neat! More gameplaying from config! Yeah, do it! Now we need 400 various new benchmarks! > > julian > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 20:53:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05034 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04811; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.8.6/8.8.5) id UAA18785; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:45:49 GMT From: Steve Kargl Message-Id: <199708082045.UAA18785@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-Reply-To: from Tom at "Aug 8, 97 05:17:36 pm" To: tom@uniserve.com (Tom) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:45:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jwd@unx.sas.com, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-smp@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Tom: > > On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Steve Kargl wrote: > > ... > > sd1(ahc0:1:0): UNIT ATTENTION asc:29,0 > > sd1(ahc0:1:0): Power on, reset, or bus device reset occurred, retries:4 > > ... > > ahc0: waiting for scsi devices to settle > > scbus0 at ahc0 bus 0 > > sd0 at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 > > sd0: type 0 fixed SCSI 2 > > sd0: Direct-Access 1030MB (2109840 512 byte sectors) > > st0 at scbus0 target 2 lun 0 > > st0: type 1 removable SCSI 2 > > st0: Sequential-Access density code 0x13, drive empty > > What is sd1? Whoops, cut and paste problem. sd1 is a Quantum Lightning 730E. st0 and sd1 are external drives with active termination on sd1. Termination is known to be correct (first thing I checked). > Also, are you sure you aren't having cable problems? The fact that all > the devices go wacko at the same time is strange. Same cables I've been using for 2 years. They could go bad (I guess). No. st0 goes south, then the SCSI bus locks up during the reset, and sd0 and sd1 sieze up. Never sd0 nor sd1 suffer any damage. > Also, check your power supply. Heavy disk io will draw more power, is > your PS cutting out causing the timeouts? sd0 is on the internal main PS. sd0 and st0 each have their own PS. -- Steve finger kargl@troutmask.apl.washington.edu http://troutmask.apl.washington.edu/~kargl/sgk.html From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 22:03:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07527 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tasogare.imasy.or.jp (root@tasogare.imasy.or.jp [202.227.24.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA07506 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ume@localhost) by tasogare.imasy.or.jp (8.8.6/3.4W4-96030215) with UUCP id NAA11846 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:42:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from peace.calm.imasy.or.jp (root@peace.calm.imasy.or.jp [158.214.107.233]) by chaos.calm.imasy.or.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta5-CHAOS1.5) with ESMTP id NAA11297 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:41:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from localhost (ume@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peace.calm.imasy.or.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta5-CALM1.0) with ESMTP id NAA27912 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:41:00 +0900 (JST) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: machine/pcb_ext.h: No such file or directory X-Mailer: Mew version 1.88 on Emacs 19.34.1 / Mule 2.3 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.or.jp/~ume/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19970809134059K.ume@calm.imasy.or.jp> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 13:40:59 +0900 From: Hajimu UMEMOTO X-Dispatcher: imput version 970806 Lines: 43 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I'm trying to make buildlworld with recent -currnet. But, it fails, because of lacking of pcb_ext.h. The log is as follows: ===> libkvm rm -f .depend mkdep -f .depend -a -DLIBC_SCCS -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/sys -I/usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm.c /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm_i386.c /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm_file.c /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm_getloadavg.c /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm_proc.c In file included from /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/sys/sys/user.h:40, from /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm.c:43: /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/machine/pcb.h:48: machine/pcb_ext.h: No such file or directory In file included from /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/sys/sys/user.h:40, from /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm_i386.c:48: /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/machine/pcb.h:48: machine/pcb_ext.h: No such file or directory In file included from /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/sys/sys/user.h:40, from /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm_file.c:46: /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/machine/pcb.h:48: machine/pcb_ext.h: No such file or directory In file included from /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/sys/sys/user.h:40, from /usr/src/lib/libkvm/kvm_proc.c:50: /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp/usr/include/machine/pcb.h:48: machine/pcb_ext.h: No such file or directory mkdep: compile failed *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. Thanks in advance. -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@imasy.or.jp ume@iabs.hitachi.co.jp http://www.imasy.or.jp/~ume/ From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 23:00:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA09406 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA09401 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id AAA02636; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:59:58 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708090559.AAA02636@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: machine/pcb_ext.h: No such file or directory In-Reply-To: <19970809134059K.ume@calm.imasy.or.jp> from Hajimu UMEMOTO at "Aug 9, 97 01:40:59 pm" To: ume@calm.imasy.or.jp (Hajimu UMEMOTO) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:59:57 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi! > > I'm trying to make buildlworld with recent -currnet. But, it fails, > because of lacking of pcb_ext.h. > Fix has been committed to the tree for the last few hours. Next time your CVS mirror picks it up, things should be okay. John From owner-freebsd-current Fri Aug 8 23:25:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA10397 for current-outgoing; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@pm3-ppp12.well.com [206.15.85.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA10389 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00283 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:25:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 23:25:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: current@freebsd.org Subject: aic7xxx driver Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk When I booted -v, I noticed that the ahc driver kinda formats the byte termination without the proper ahc#:, and the line proclaiming that it is/has downloaded the sequencer code looks ugly, so I just kinda went in and made a few snips here and there. In the process I also added a line that prints "Ultra " if you have an ultra controller. So "ahc0: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=2, 16/255 SCBs" becomes "ahc0: aic7880 Ultra Wide Channel, SCSI Id=2, 16/255 SCBs" if one has the Ultra scsi stuff enabled. I'd be interested in submitting this to the "powers that be". - alex From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 00:40:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA12756 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (msx-06-1-22.1033.cybercity.dk [195.8.138.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA12750 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.dk.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.dk.tfs.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA03080; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:25:25 +0200 (CEST) To: Alex cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG From: Poul-Henning Kamp Subject: Re: 93cx6.c?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:26:39 PDT." Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 09:25:24 +0200 Message-ID: <3078.871111524@critter.dk.tfs.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Alex wri tes: >I read the comments at the beginning of this file, and it appears to be a >serial eeprom driver. So the question is, why's it in the scsi directory? Alex, Considering the number of emails you send, your contributions to the advancement of the project are sadly lacking. Would you mind shutting up until you've done your homework ? Every time you feel the urge to send yet another message, ask youself this question: "How many out of 10000 people will be interested in this ?" -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Power and ignorance is a disgusting cocktail. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 00:53:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA13048 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wall.jhs.no_domain (vector.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13042; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wall.jhs.no_domain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wall.jhs.no_domain (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA01266; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 01:16:12 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199708052316.BAA01266@wall.jhs.no_domain> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG, isdn@muc.ditec.de Subject: Re: ISDN drivers/cards From: "Julian H. Stacey" Reply-To: "Julian H. Stacey" X-Email: Home: Lists: Work: X-web: http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ X-address: Holz Strasse 27d, 80469 Munich, Germany X-tel: Home +49.89.268616, Work +49.89.607.29788 Fax +49.89.2608126, Data +49.89.26023276 X-company: Vector Systems Ltd, Unix & Internet Consultants. X-software: FreeBSD (Unix) + EXMH 1.6.9 (PGP key on web) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Aug 1997 17:20:39 +0200." <9708051520.AA25084@cssmuc.frt.dec.com> Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 01:16:10 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > steve@visint.co.uk writes: > > I tried using bisdn, both with -current and 2.2.2, without much luck, Works fine for me on 2.2.1, used to be fine too on an ancient current, (but I got tired of the volatile nature of current & went to releases). > I'm > in europe (england) I'm in Germany, FWIW a friend of mine (Barry S) who has developed a number of isdn PC cards ( not supported by bisdn, far as I know, but described on http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/lion/ ) says nasty things about British Telecom's isdn service implementation, in comparison with Deutsche Telekom's implementation... maybe there is something different for you in the UK (the developers are mostly based in Germany) ? > and although bisdn connects and works most of the time > it did have a nasty habit of just halting the machine completely. Never has halted for me, but then my isdn machine runs lighter perhaps than yours (just does net, not X11 & keyboard driven other stuff, that I run on another ethernet'd box). > If I > used natd Huh ? man natd No manual entry for natd > and aliased a bunch of machines through it it crashed sooner.. > but it only seems to crash when bisdn I was using telnet. (ping etc. > wouldn't crash it for me). I rarely use telnet (but do use it) mostly I `just' use rlogin, ftp (& whatever make fetch calls) & popclient & http etc on a 16M 486 33MHz ISA 2.2.1 (going to 2.2.2 soon when I replace a 2nd monitor to do it with :-)) > Basically though, bisdn isn't a workable stable system. It _Is_ Stable for me on mine ! > It was a pain to > install True, but then there are copyright etc reasons why the code comes as old + new bits + patches, till the rewrite is done. There are also README cookbooks & patchkits (on ftp.muc.ditec.de/isdn, (personally I have a src/ customising script & same diffs in different format in my http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/customise ) > and IMHO is a total mess. I wouldn't know about the code stylistic quality, I've not looked, I've only hacked one trivial tiny morsel (to add bell on connect/disconnect). > Well, just wanted to say that in case someone suggests that we should all > be using bisdn. Because IMHO, it sucks, and really shouldn't be used as a > base for future code either. (except as a bad example.) I disagree ! PS I found a couple of phone calls to Gary J. helped me enormously, since then I've been a very happy user of the bisdn code that Hellmuth, Gary et al have given us, I'm just quietly waiting for the rewrite, which will only get delayed if those guys get side tracked by criticism such as this. The isdn has always suffered from an excess of demanding users, & lack of programmers, so I suggest, (without wishing to be rude), that you contribute code, or keep quiet, & figure out what you've done wrong on your system, .... 'cos it sure works fine for me :-) Ideally, invest in a couple of international calls to Gary J, and hope he's kind enought to talk you through to discover what you've probably done wrong. It works for me, so it could for you, I guess ? .... Good Luck :-) Julian -- Julian H. Stacey jhs@freebsd.org http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 01:24:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA14123 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA14118 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asterix.xs4all.nl (root@asterix.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.11]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.6/XS4ALL) with ESMTP id KAA10596 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:24:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from plm.xs4all.nl (uucp@localhost) by asterix.xs4all.nl (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id KAA28041 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:22:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from plm@localhost) by plm.xs4all.nl (8.8.6/8.7.3) id AAA16491; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:54:14 +0200 (MET DST) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IDE vs SCSI was: flags 80ff works (like anybody doubted it) References: <87k9hw723z.fsf@totally-fudged-out-message-id> From: Peter Mutsaers Date: 09 Aug 1997 00:54:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson"'s message of Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:27:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <877mdw2smi.fsf@plm.xs4all.nl> Lines: 81 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.25/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:27:18 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" >> said: JSD> This is the result of my "slow" recent, but not the latest, greatest JSD> IDE drive (WD 4GB drive.): JSD> Command overhead is 88 usec (time_4096 = 348, time_8192 = 607) JSD> transfer speed is 1.57828e+07 bytes/sec JSD> dd if=/dev/rwd1 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k JSD> 1600+0 records in JSD> 1600+0 records out JSD> 104857600 bytes transferred in 10.881267 secs (9636525 bytes/sec) JSD> This is the result of my Hawk, SCSI drive, with an NCR 815 interface: JSD> Command overhead is 845 usec (time_4096 = 2071, time_8192 = 3297) JSD> transfer speed is 3.34201e+06 bytes/sec JSD> dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k JSD> 1600+0 records in JSD> 1600+0 records out JSD> 104857600 bytes transferred in 27.336979 secs (3835742 bytes/sec) Hmm, my NCR815 does: ~> dd if=/dev/rsd2 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k 1600+0 records in 1600+0 records out 104857600 bytes transferred in 15.215823 secs (6891352 bytes/sec) This is a seagate ST15150N. But for Wide and/or Ultra SCSI you can expect better values. More interesting is: ~> dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k&;dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k& [2] 16410 [3] 16411 i.e. start two of them at the same time. I get as result: 104857600 bytes transferred in 41.430049 secs (2530955 bytes/sec) and 104857600 bytes transferred in 41.437855 secs (2530478 bytes/sec) So still >5MB/s What does IDE do in this case? Another variant: ~> dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k&; sleep 2; dd if=/dev/rsd0 of=/dev/null count=1600 bs=64k& [2] 16415 [3] 16417 i.e. two of them, but with 2 seconds wait in between to make sure that the two readers do not read blocks that are very close. Results are much, much lower now: 104857600 bytes transferred in 113.343774 secs (925129 bytes/sec) and 104857600 bytes transferred in 113.277994 secs (925666 bytes/sec) Less than 1 MB/s total throughput remains! Quite dissapointing. I wonder how IDE behaves in this case. Anyway, apart from performance, I mainly use SCSI because I have 3 disks, a CD-ROM and a tapestreamer all on 1 cable, all with good drivers and very reliable. -- /\_/\ ( o.o ) Peter Mutsaers | Abcoude (Utrecht), | Trust me, I know ) ^ ( plm@xs4all.nl | the Netherlands | what I'm doing. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 04:37:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA21258 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp (gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp [133.6.57.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA21247; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marble.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp (8.8.6/3.5Wpl3) with ESMTP id UAA05593; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:37:29 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199708091137.UAA05593@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: kato@gneiss.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vm_bounce_alloc: Unmapped page From: KATO Takenori In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:24:47 +0900" References: <199706171024.TAA07709@ganko.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.28.1 / Mule 2.3 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 03 72 85 36 62 46 23 03 52 B1 10 22 44 10 0D 9E Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 20:37:29 +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: KATO Takenori Subject: vm_bounce_alloc: Unmapped page Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:24:47 +0900 > I got `vm_bounce_alloc: Unmapped page' panic when I compiled in > union mounted /usr/src/usr.sbin directory. John's vm_zone related changes mask or fix this problem. I can compile in union mounted /usr/src/usr.sbin and /usr/src/sbin without problem, now. ---- KATO Takenori Dept. Earth Planet. Sci., Nagoya Univ., Nagoya, 464-01, Japan PGP public key: finger kato@eclogite.eps.nagoya-u.ac.jp ------------------- Powered by FreeBSD(98) ------------------- From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 09:24:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00723 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (Ilsa.StevesCafe.com [205.168.119.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00440; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Ilsa.StevesCafe.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA06802; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:18:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199708091618.KAA06802@Ilsa.StevesCafe.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 From: Steve Passe To: Russell Vincent cc: jwd@unx.sas.com (John W. DeBoskey), freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-smp@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: scsi time-out & lockup under smp In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Aug 1997 14:29:08 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 10:18:00 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Has anyone tried undefining PEND_INTS to fix this yet? We REALLY need to determine if this is being caused by the SMP code! Another thing I see that is a possible leak is in apic_vector.s: *** apic_vector.s.orig 1997/07/30 22:46:49 1.18 --- apic_vector.s 1997/08/09 05:55:31 *************** *** 45,50 **** --- 45,51 ---- orl $IOART_INTMASK,%eax ; /* set the mask */ \ movl %eax,IOAPIC_WINDOW(%ecx) ; /* new value */ \ 7: ; \ + lock ; \ orl $IRQ_BIT(irq_num), _ipending ; /* set _ipending bit */ \ IMASK_UNLOCK ; /* exit critical reg */ \ movl $0, lapic_eoi ; /* do the EOI */ \ -- Steve Passe | powered by smp@csn.net | Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 09:30:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01014 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arg1.demon.co.uk (arg1.demon.co.uk [194.222.34.166]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01006; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from arg@localhost) by arg1.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA02963; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:35:56 +0100 (BST) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:35:56 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Gordon X-Sender: arg@server.arg.sj.co.uk To: "Julian H. Stacey" cc: current@freebsd.org, isdn@muc.ditec.de Subject: Re: ISDN drivers/cards In-Reply-To: <199708052316.BAA01266@wall.jhs.no_domain> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > steve@visint.co.uk writes: > > > I tried using bisdn, both with -current and 2.2.2, without much luck, > > > I'm > > in europe (england) > > I'm in Germany, FWIW a friend of mine (Barry S) who has developed a number > of isdn PC cards ( not supported by bisdn, far as I know, but described on > http://www.freebsd.org/~jhs/lion/ ) says nasty things about British Telecom's > isdn service implementation, in comparison with Deutsche Telekom's > implementation... maybe there is something different for you in the UK > (the developers are mostly based in Germany) ? I don't believe this is the case. While there are various deficiencies in BT's ISDN implementation, most of them relate to services that BT simply don't provide. The main issues which cause interoperability problems relate to the bearer-capabilities, higher-layer-compatibility and lower-layer-compatibility fields, but since BISDN doesn't implent V.120 or outgoing voice calls, these have no effect on BISDN. Note that there are several implementations of ISDN available in the UK, all claiming to offer EuroISDN: 1) BT's older offering, implemented via an IMUX unit on the front of a DASS2 connection to a System X or AXE10. Identified by the tall, rectangular NTE box on your wall. 2) BT's current offering, implemented as an imbedded linecard in System X exchanges. Identified by the smaller, curved front NTE. This theoretically offers the same service as the IMUX version, but I believe there are some differences since the call is no longer mangled by the protocol conversion to DASS2 (I believe that this is where the BC/HLC/LLC corruption occurs). 3) BT's new offering, not yet available, providing "Full ETSI call control". Documentation of this (incuding the differences from the current offering) are available in SIN261, available from http://www1.btwebworld.com/sinet/ . I believe this is just a software upgrade from 2) above; I'm not sure what happens to people in areas served from AXE10 exchanges - maybe there will be a linecard for AXE10 too. 4) Various solutions offered by Cable TV companies. My local cableco serves this area from a Nortel DMS switch, but apparently Nortel's software for EuroISDN was too expensive, so they are providing ISDN from their smaller Nokia switch which provides telephone service to outlying villages. Other cablecos have Nortel and System X switches - and possibly others too. I have used BISDN with both BT lines (type 2 above) and a cableco line from a Nokia switch. I have had no interworking problems whatever, apart from when the cableco first introduced their service and the Nokia switch was generating completely invalid protocol and generally not working at all; unfortunately, they fixed it before I had a chance to debug why BISDN was crashing under this abuse. It's just possible that IMUX lines might cause problems (I haven't had the chance to test BISDN with one), but given the nature of the differences I would be very surprised. > > and although bisdn connects and works most of the time > > it did have a nasty habit of just halting the machine completely. > > Never has halted for me, but then my isdn machine runs lighter perhaps > than yours (just does net, not X11 & keyboard driven other stuff, that I run on > another ethernet'd box). I have seen problems with the PPP patches installed, but not otherwise. > > It was a pain to > > install Again, sounds like using PPP. The base BISDN install is trivial - you put up the Install.FreeBSD-2.1 in one xterm, cut and paste the instructions into another xterm, and you are installed in about 1 minute flat. PPP is much more of a fiddle. > > and IMHO is a total mess. > > I wouldn't know about the code stylistic quality, I've not looked, > I've only hacked one trivial tiny morsel (to add bell on connect/disconnect). Again, the base BISDN is quite sound, but the PPP patches are just a quick hack - as acknowledged by those involved in producing them. Given that BISDN is being re-written, there is little motivation to do further work on PPP for the old version. It does, however, work well if used carefully. > > Well, just wanted to say that in case someone suggests that we should all > > be using bisdn. Because IMHO, it sucks, and really shouldn't be used as a > > base for future code either. (except as a bad example.) Well, you are intitled to your opinion, but expressing it in the form of general abuse (as opposed to specific criticism of techniques used) is not at all helpful. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 10:22:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03323 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03314 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA28689; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:22:00 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA08376; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:01:46 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970809190145.TF08515@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:01:45 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Subject: Re: Could someone clarify this? References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Alex on Aug 5, 1997 20:25:46 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Alex wrote: > Well, I looked at the manpage again, and I saw this > > device ex0 at isa? port? net irq? vector exintr > > DESCRIPTION > The ex driver provides support for the 16-bit PCI Intel EtherExpress > Pro/10 Ethernet card based on the Intel i82595 chip. > > Is it PCI or Isa? or both? or what? Well, you made a glance on the man page, but you didn't look. Did you? Try again: device ex0 at isa? port? net irq? vector exintr ^^^^^^ So at which bus is it? Note also that PCI cards are 32-bit, and are usually configured by just: device ixp0 ...since the PCI bus allows for a working device autodetection. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 10:22:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03343 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03331 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA28692; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:22:09 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA08503; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:04:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970809190418.IG29739@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:04:18 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Subject: Re: Another question References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Alex on Aug 5, 1997 19:11:16 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Alex wrote: > What devices is the pseudo sppp needed for? cx and ar? ar and sr? all > three? All three. However, you could in theory stack a different layer on top of this hardware, other than SyncPPP (or Cisco). I'm using it together with BISDN (see my latest rewrite in the source). It's a fairly device-independent PPP stack. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 10:22:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA03365 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03352 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 10:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA28694; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:22:15 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA08707; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:05:32 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970809190531.IS50691@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:05:31 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: j_mini@efn.org (Jonathan Mini), garbanzo@hooked.net (Alex) Subject: Re: 16 bit bios calls? References: <19970807200907.36541@micron.efn.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970807200907.36541@micron.efn.org>; from Jonathan Mini on Aug 7, 1997 20:09:07 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jonathan Mini wrote: > > I think that I saw a message about someone who wanted native 16bit bios > > calls within FreeBSD (I hope I got the right list ;) ), and just had > > stumbled over something that does this for Linux. Anyways, it's on > > Sunsite, hope it helps. > > > > - alex > > That was me. See John Dyson's yesterday's commit... -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 11:22:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06266 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06254 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id UAA29019; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:22:19 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA27645; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:09:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970809200918.DJ10039@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:09:19 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: steve@visint.co.uk (Stephen Roome) Subject: Re: ISDN drivers/cards References: <199708052316.BAA01266@wall.jhs.no_domain> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Gordon on Aug 9, 1997 17:35:56 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Andrew Gordon wrote: > Again, the base BISDN is quite sound, but the PPP patches are just a > quick hack - as acknowledged by those involved in producing them. > Given that BISDN is being re-written, there is little motivation > to do further work on PPP for the old version. There is some motivation. Note that i've already implemented a diff- erent version of PPP for BISDN (using the /sys/net/if_sppp* stuff from Serge Vakulenko), but in the end it turns out both implementations have their pros and cons. My version is more targeted to people who wish to have semi-permanent connections with as little overhead as possible, i.e. i can ifconfig my various bppp devices, and get semi- permanent routing out to my various ISDN PPP peers. The pppd-based version is better suited for a typical ISDN dialin server, with many possible peers connecting. Martin promised to cleanup his (arguably hacky) code once he is convinced that his PPP solution will survive. My own PPP variant works fairly stable as well. A number of things are still missing however (PAP/CHAP are still undebugged and not working), that's why i haven't ever publically announced it so far. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 13:14:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11091 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsd.relcom.eu.net (lsd.relcom.eu.net [193.124.23.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA11084; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ache@localhost) by lsd.relcom.eu.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22321; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:14:27 +0400 (MSD) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:14:24 +0400 (MSD) From: =?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?= X-Sender: ache@lsd.relcom.eu.net To: dyson@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current Subject: /usr/dos for doscmd Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I see doscmd tries to install something to non-existent /usr/dos which is missing in mtree/BSD.usr.dist file... We need either add this directory to BSD.usr.dist or install into another existing place... -- Andrey A. Chernov http://www.nagual.pp.ru/~ache/ From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 13:34:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12116 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12111 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.148]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-32322U5000L100S10000) with ESMTP id AAA150 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:35:52 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA00218; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970809163338.62258@scsn.net> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:33:38 -0400 From: "Donald J. Maddox" To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: VM86? Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I added the following line to my kernel config: options "VM86" ran config, and recompiled. I also built and installed the doscmd binary. However, any attempt to execute a DOS binary (or to boot DOS from a floppy) results in: Init: -1 sigreturn failed : Invalid argument doscmd: fatal error vm86 returned (no kernel support?) What else do I need to do to get VM86 to work? From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 13:43:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12561 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12551 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.181]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-32322U5000L100S10000) with ESMTP id AAA148 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:45:51 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA00327; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970809164339.46312@scsn.net> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:43:39 -0400 From: "Donald J. Maddox" To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: VM86 Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I added the following line to my kernel config: options "VM86" ran config, and recompiled. I also built and installed the doscmd binary. However, any attempt to execute a DOS binary (or to boot DOS from a floppy) results in: Init: -1 sigreturn failed : Invalid argument doscmd: fatal error vm86 returned (no kernel support?) What else do I need to do to get VM86 to work? From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 13:43:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12590 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns2.scsn.net (root@ns2.scsn.net [206.25.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12577 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net (root@ppp181.coladlp2.scsn.net [208.133.153.181]) by ns2.scsn.net (8.7.1/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA00446 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:55:55 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA00218; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970809163338.62258@scsn.net> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:33:38 -0400 From: "Donald J. Maddox" To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: VM86? Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ok, I added the following line to my kernel config: options "VM86" ran config, and recompiled. I also built and installed the doscmd binary. However, any attempt to execute a DOS binary (or to boot DOS from a floppy) results in: Init: -1 sigreturn failed : Invalid argument doscmd: fatal error vm86 returned (no kernel support?) What else do I need to do to get VM86 to work? From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 13:50:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA12996 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA12989; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id PAA04951; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:50:27 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708092050.PAA04951@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: /usr/dos for doscmd In-Reply-To: from "[______ ______]" at "Aug 10, 97 00:14:24 am" To: ache@nagual.pp.ru (=?KOI8-R?B?4c7E0sXKIP7F0s7P1w==?=) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:50:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I see doscmd tries to install something to non-existent /usr/dos > which is missing in mtree/BSD.usr.dist file... > We need either add this directory to BSD.usr.dist or install into another > existing place... > Hmmm... You are right... What is a good "semi-standard" place to put such things. I don't necessarily think that we should create another directory, or should we? John From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 13:58:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA13289 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13284 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00401; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:09:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id PAA02496; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:59:14 -0500 Message-ID: <19970809155914.35878@right.PCS> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:59:14 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: dmaddox@scsn.net Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VM86? References: <19970809163338.62258@scsn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <19970809163338.62258@scsn.net>; from Donald J. Maddox on Aug 08, 1997 at 04:33:38PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Aug 08, 1997 at 04:33:38PM -0400, Donald J. Maddox wrote: > Ok, I added the following line to my kernel config: > > options "VM86" > > ran config, and recompiled. I also built and installed the doscmd > binary. > > However, any attempt to execute a DOS binary (or to boot DOS from > a floppy) results in: > > Init: -1 > sigreturn failed : Invalid argument > doscmd: fatal error vm86 returned (no kernel support?) > > What else do I need to do to get VM86 to work? You probably need to load the LKM as well. modload /lkm/vm86_mod.o -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 14:02:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13484 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13479 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07372 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708092102.OAA07372@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Bt848 driver and current? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 14:02:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk For some reason my bt848 video card stopped working with a recent -current. The -current May 22 release seems to work fine -- I have two boxes one with a recent -current and the other box is just a system for trashing about or for creative hacking 8) I have swapped my two bt848 video cards so I am pretty sure that that cards are working. Since from a kernel perspective the driver is very simple only one thing comes to mind and thats the PCI interface has changed in a incompatible way. Tnks, Amancio From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 14:03:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13593 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.scsn.net (scsn.net [206.25.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13582 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rhiannon.scsn.net ([208.133.153.181]) by mail.scsn.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-32322U5000L100S10000) with ESMTP id AAA165; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:05:39 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by rhiannon.scsn.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id RAA00435; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970809170325.31573@scsn.net> Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:03:25 -0400 From: "Donald J. Maddox" To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VM86? Reply-To: dmaddox@scsn.net References: <19970809163338.62258@scsn.net> <19970809155914.35878@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <19970809155914.35878@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 03:59:14PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Aug 09, 1997 at 03:59:14PM -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Aug 08, 1997 at 04:33:38PM -0400, Donald J. Maddox wrote: > > Ok, I added the following line to my kernel config: > > > > options "VM86" > > > > ran config, and recompiled. I also built and installed the doscmd > > binary. > > > > However, any attempt to execute a DOS binary (or to boot DOS from > > a floppy) results in: > > > > Init: -1 > > sigreturn failed : Invalid argument > > doscmd: fatal error vm86 returned (no kernel support?) > > > > What else do I need to do to get VM86 to work? > > You probably need to load the LKM as well. modload /lkm/vm86_mod.o Ah, yes... Thanks, Jonathan :-) From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 14:10:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13945 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13939 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA08819; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:10:02 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199708092110.QAA08819@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: VM86? In-Reply-To: <19970809163338.62258@scsn.net> from "Donald J. Maddox" at "Aug 9, 97 04:33:38 pm" To: dmaddox@scsn.net Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:10:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ok, I added the following line to my kernel config: > > options "VM86" > > ran config, and recompiled. I also built and installed the doscmd > binary. > > However, any attempt to execute a DOS binary (or to boot DOS from > a floppy) results in: > > Init: -1 > sigreturn failed : Invalid argument > doscmd: fatal error vm86 returned (no kernel support?) > > What else do I need to do to get VM86 to work? > The vm86 module needs to be built/loaded... Since the module is so small, I am thinking about installing it permanently when the VM86 option is enabled. John From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 15:16:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17430 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from abby.skypoint.net (abby.skypoint.net [199.86.32.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA17409 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by abby.skypoint.net (8.8.5/alexis 2.7) with UUCP id RAA00301; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:15:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from bruce@localhost) by zuhause.mn.org (8.8.6/8.8.5) id QAA14184; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:23:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:23:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199708092123.QAA14184@zuhause.mn.org> From: Bruce Albrecht To: Thomas Dean Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Trap 9 When Boot SMP In-Reply-To: <199708080342.UAA00262@celebris.tddhome> References: <199708080342.UAA00262@celebris.tddhome> X-Mailer: VM 6.30 under 19.15p2 XEmacs Lucid Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Thomas Dean writes: > I have been trying to get SMP running on my machine, > a Digital Equipment Corp. Celebris XL 5133DP. > > I get a trap 9 when I try to run an SMP kernel. I tried -current > and 3.0-970618-SNAP, with similar results. I'm also getting this error on a Tyan ATX 1668 MB. Strangely enough, I got this error when I first tried the SMP snap kernel from Jan/Feb, and went away for a week or so when SMP was integrated into -current, and I've been unable to boot SMP since. Steve Passe suggested that it might be hardware, since I've also been having problems with my memory getting parity error faults, but I sent it back to the company I bought it from, and they replaced the memory (still getting parity error faults, so I've got to do something about that again), and also the motherboard because it was damaged during shipping (don't ask, it took FedEx a month to deal with the claim). It looks like it's dying when sending the message saying the CPU is online, so I was thinking of switching to the other console driver to see if it makes any difference. My machine runing SMP Windows/NT just fine. I don't have enough disk to try Linux SMP, though. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 16:27:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA20294 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from friley01.res.iastate.edu (friley01.res.iastate.edu [129.186.189.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20289 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 16:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ccsanady@localhost) by friley01.res.iastate.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA01039 for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:27:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:27:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Csanady Message-Id: <199708092327.SAA01039@friley01.res.iastate.edu> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: exmh and current.. anyone? Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk How do you work around the stupid tcl8 problem? That aside, I'd like to point out just how disgusted I am with the people who are responsibe for the tcl/tk versioning mess.. Bad, bad, bad! Chris From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 17:56:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23948 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA23942 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA06237; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:53:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Chris Csanady cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: exmh and current.. anyone? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 Aug 1997 18:27:13 CDT." <199708092327.SAA01039@friley01.res.iastate.edu> Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 17:53:41 -0700 Message-ID: <6234.871174421@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That aside, I'd like to point out just how disgusted I am with the > people who are responsibe for the tcl/tk versioning mess.. > > Bad, bad, bad! I'm also pretty disgusted by somebody trying to fan the flames of all this just 3 days after the acrimony has died down and things are sort of back to normal. Chris? Shut up. Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 18:38:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA26281 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terror.hungry.com (fn@terror.hungry.com [169.131.1.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26276 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from fn@localhost) by terror.hungry.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) id SAA23048; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:38:48 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /usr/dos for doscmd References: <199708092050.PAA04951@dyson.iquest.net> From: Faried Nawaz Date: 09 Aug 1997 18:38:48 -0700 In-Reply-To: toor@dyson.iquest.net's message of 9 Aug 1997 14:15:43 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) writes: Hmmm... You are right... What is a good "semi-standard" place to put such things. I don't necessarily think that we should create another directory, or should we? What does it try to install? How about somewhere in /usr/libdata? From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 20:28:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA29472 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (root@ppp-167.halifax-01.ican.net [206.231.248.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA29467 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thelab.hub.org (scrappy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.6/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA00410 for ; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:27:51 -0300 (ADT) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 00:27:51 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: current@freebsd.org Subject: Network/Modem problems... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... I'm having a strange problem with my modem, and am wondering if anyone has any ideas... I'm running FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT, and due to the problem, figured I'd spend tonight upgrading my system. Previously, was running a July 12th kernel... The problem *appears* to be temporary network lag, except that ping reports something around a 1% packet loss. Right now, I'm trying to cvsup down the new source tree, and it is just hanging there, altho a ping runs perfectly (the 1% packet loss was on 75 packets, while cvsup was running...) If I telnet to a remote machine, I get relatively steady 'hangs' there also, where a screen refresh will clear the screen, then redraw part of the screen, pause, redraw a bit more, pause, etc...with the pausing being up to a minute or more. And, again, a ping doesn't show much packet loss, or much change in ping times (~300ms on a 33.6 modem).. Not sure if that presents near enough information for an educated guess/suggestion, but its all I can think of right now :( Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 20:59:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00632 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00627; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 20:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17255; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24846; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:59:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:59:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Ade Lovett cc: hoek@hwcn.org, current@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Ade Lovett wrote: > build anything itself, and (b) the idea of dependencies in both > source *and* binary form. Actually, (b) is supported in binary form. Because of the way I go about adding packages, I never noticed it until I went scavaging through the source. Had it been documented, I might have always gone about adding packages in a different way to take advantage of pkg_add's dependancy-autofetch functionality (hint Jordan! Hint! (I _can_ make diffs on request, btw... :-) [explan of pkg_add's handling of (b)] If the package being installed depends on another package which is not installed, pkg_add will clip the filename from the path of the package being installed (which could be ftp://moc.morcd.ptf/bup/DSBeerF/2.2.2-segakcap/llA/tvp-0.9.7.tgz), append the name of the dependancy's package (eg. tcl-4.2.tgz), and try and get the result (which will either be a pathname or an URL (in our example, ftp://moc.morcd/ptf/bup/DSBeerF/2.2.2-segakcap/llA/tcl-4.2.tgz). There is also the PKG_ADD_BASE environment variable which is intentionally undocumented (ie. "There is not also the PKG_..."). -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 21:26:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA01587 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 21:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01571; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 21:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA11251; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 21:23:06 -0700 (PDT) To: hoek@hwcn.org cc: Ade Lovett , current@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ports-current/packages-current discontinued In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 Aug 1997 23:59:43 EDT." Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 21:23:06 -0700 Message-ID: <11248.871186986@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > advantage of pkg_add's dependancy-autofetch functionality (hint > Jordan! Hint! (I _can_ make diffs on request, btw... :-) I'm not proud - send 'em on! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 22:06:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03154 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from hsu@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03148; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:06:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Hsu Message-Id: <199708100506.WAA03148@hub.freebsd.org> To: ccsanady@friley01.res.iastate.edu Subject: Re: exmh and current.. anyone? Cc: current Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How do you work around the stupid tcl8 problem? I had to do this the other day and I just ftp'ed the tcl8 and tk8 distribution from ftp.smli.com, untarred them in the same subdirectory, and built and installed just tk. From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 22:41:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA03904 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03898; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00914; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708100541.WAA00914@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: Jeffrey Hsu cc: ccsanady@friley01.res.iastate.edu, current@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: exmh and current.. anyone? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 Aug 1997 22:06:46 PDT." <199708100506.WAA03148@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 22:41:40 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of Jeffrey Hsu : > > How do you work around the stupid tcl8 problem? > > I had to do this the other day and I just ftp'ed the tcl8 and tk8 > distribution from ftp.smli.com, untarred them in the same subdirectory, > and built and installed just tk. Hmm... I think we have bigger problem and that is perhaps some that are running current shouldn't be running current. Amancio From owner-freebsd-current Sat Aug 9 23:51:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA05881 for current-outgoing; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05876 for ; Sat, 9 Aug 1997 23:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA04611 for freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:51:22 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA00240; Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:46:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970810084631.HZ57983@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 08:46:31 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /usr/dos for doscmd References: <199708092050.PAA04951@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Faried Nawaz on Aug 9, 1997 18:38:48 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Faried Nawaz wrote: > Hmmm... You are right... What is a good "semi-standard" place to > put such things. I don't necessarily think that we should create > another directory, or should we? > What does it try to install? How about somewhere in /usr/libdata? I also thought about /usr/libdata (or /usr/libexec -- it seems to be an executable file, although not a Unix executable). The Makefile would currently break `make release', btw., since it relies on X11 being installed. This should probably be made automatically dependant on the actual configuration. Negative side effect: the doscmd that ships with releases won't be able to do X11. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)