From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 11:42:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23538 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:42:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23528 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:42:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08649; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:42:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd008638; Sun Nov 1 12:42:02 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23590; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:41:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:41:50 +0000 (GMT) Cc: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, tlambert@primenet.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Oct 31, 98 11:34:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape > code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in > violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to as yet unresolve court decisions. Not. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 11:52:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25011 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:52:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25005 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:52:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16987; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:52:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd016966; Sun Nov 1 12:52:01 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23905; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:52:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811011952.MAA23905@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD certified software (was: WordPerfect 8 for Linux) To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:52:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Oct 30, 98 05:54:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >o Can be made to run with effort > > > > This is the "publicity" tool, where anything that can be made > > to run, painfully, or as a result of a downloading install > > stuff from some other unknown place gets "branded". > > I don't like this as a brand. Neither do I. But the point was FreeBSD advocacy, so in addition to the two "useful to the users" brandings, there is probably a need, at least in the context of this discussion, for a branding whose intention is to advocate FreeBSD, where that goal is ahead of the goal of telling users anything useful other than "get FreeBSD". I don't personally buy into this theme, but since it was one of the main impetus for the branding discussion in the first place, I thought that I'd be remiss to not include it. The reason I suggested differences in treatment for this brand is that it lacks utility for your average consumer, compared to the other two marks. For the other two marks to be useful, they have to be distinct, rigidly controlled, and visually different from the advocacy brand. > There has been the idea that any of these brands could go on a shrink wrap > product. I don't think "half works" of "half broke" should go on anything > with the name FreeBSD. Well, take it up with the "can be made to work with FreeBSD with effort" branding advocacy. > FreeBSD goes out of it's way to dissuade people from running -current > unless they are developers. Stuff that requires "painful" work is in the > realm of developer's level of skill. Actually, FreeBSD goes out of it's way to avoid supporting -current, which is a slightly different thing, albeit with similar results. > We should approach neither vendors nor potential customers with > developmental software. There are two different goals to this discussion, and I don't think they are on the same axis. One is a consumer confidence goal, and the other is a marketing exposure goal. The "best" brand for marketing exposure is one that's pervasive in the target market. The "best" brand for consumer confidence is one that guarantees a maximum pain threshold which will not be exceeded, for the consumer. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 11:55:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25586 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:55:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25576 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:55:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16960; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:55:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016942; Sun Nov 1 12:55:03 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA24027; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:55:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811011955.MAA24027@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD certified software (was: WordPerfect 8 for Linux) To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:55:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981030212143.00a84420@genesis.ispace.com> from "Drew Baxter" at Oct 30, 98 09:22:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I would like to see three categories: > >> > >> o Can be made to run with effort > >> o Install tools, but non-native binaries > >> o Native binaries. > > > >You're late on the scene, Terry. This is exactly what I suggested > >several days ago. Not quite exactly what you suggested... I think I've drawn a harder line on the limits of marketing implied by the first item. > >I think that others have made a valid point, though: if we include the > >first category, we don't give much incentive for them to take the > >relatively small step to the second category. I think we should refer > >to the first category in an also-ran web page, but not issue > >certificates unless they go at least to the second category. > > That makes sense. It's not like it's going to kill anyone to throw > together some install tools. After all, it's a good plug for their product > as well to have support for FreeBSD.. The install tools should be thrown together *by* FreeBSD people, and *given* to the vendor, for non-native binaries. Branding at all should *require* a FreeBSD "install presence". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 13:35:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09922 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:35:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09911 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:35:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA07637; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:04:20 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA20938; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:04:13 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981102080413.G19187@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:04:13 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX References: <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 07:41:50PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, 1 November 1998 at 19:41:50 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape >> code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in >> violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. > > By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications > that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas > unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to > as yet unresolve court decisions. 1. This stuff doesn't run on FreeBSD. 2. I don't care too much about court decisions. The evidence I've seen leaves no doubt that Microsoft is in deliberate breach of contract with Sun over the Java content. In my book, that's piracy. > Not. Not for the first time, you're missing the point. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 13:38:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10421 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10397 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:38:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4017.ime.net [209.90.195.27]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id QAA11758; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:37:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981101163444.00980100@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 16:35:04 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981102080413.G19187@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:04 AM 11/2/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Sunday, 1 November 1998 at 19:41:50 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape >>> code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in >>> violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. >> >> By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications >> that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas >> unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to >> as yet unresolve court decisions. > >1. This stuff doesn't run on FreeBSD. >2. I don't care too much about court decisions. The evidence I've > seen leaves no doubt that Microsoft is in deliberate breach of > contract with Sun over the Java content. In my book, that's > piracy. > >> Not. > >Not for the first time, you're missing the point. > >Greg Got a URL to show this? I'm suddenly interested.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 14:01:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13352 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:01:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13339 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:01:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA07717; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:30:54 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA20977; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:30:47 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981102083046.H19187@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:30:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Drew Baxter , Terry Lambert Cc: wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX References: <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> <19981102080413.G19187@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981101163444.00980100@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981101163444.00980100@genesis.ispace.com>; from Drew Baxter on Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 04:35:04PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, 1 November 1998 at 16:35:04 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 08:04 AM 11/2/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sunday, 1 November 1998 at 19:41:50 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>>> I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape >>>> code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in >>>> violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. >>> >>> By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications >>> that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas >>> unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to >>> as yet unresolve court decisions. >> >> 1. This stuff doesn't run on FreeBSD. >> 2. I don't care too much about court decisions. The evidence I've >> seen leaves no doubt that Microsoft is in deliberate breach of >> contract with Sun over the Java content. In my book, that's >> piracy. > > Got a URL to show this? I'm suddenly interested.. The only one I have offhand is http://www.sunworld.com/swol-03-1998/swol-03-microjustice.html. You could also check the DOJ stuff, or go to Yahoo! and search for Microsoft and Sun. This stuff has been all over the media for the past year or so--where've you been? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 14:03:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13679 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13672 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:03:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4017.ime.net [209.90.195.27]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id RAA11793; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:03:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981101170045.009a7ee0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 17:01:09 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981102083046.H19187@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981101163444.00980100@genesis.ispace.com> <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> <19981102080413.G19187@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981101163444.00980100@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:30 AM 11/2/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Sunday, 1 November 1998 at 16:35:04 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 08:04 AM 11/2/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Sunday, 1 November 1998 at 19:41:50 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>>>> I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape >>>>> code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in >>>>> violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. >>>> >>>> By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications >>>> that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas >>>> unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to >>>> as yet unresolve court decisions. >>> >>> 1. This stuff doesn't run on FreeBSD. >>> 2. I don't care too much about court decisions. The evidence I've >>> seen leaves no doubt that Microsoft is in deliberate breach of >>> contract with Sun over the Java content. In my book, that's >>> piracy. >> >> Got a URL to show this? I'm suddenly interested.. > >The only one I have offhand is >http://www.sunworld.com/swol-03-1998/swol-03-microjustice.html. You >could also check the DOJ stuff, or go to Yahoo! and search for >Microsoft and Sun. This stuff has been all over the media for the >past year or so--where've you been? > >Greg Not paying attention to Microshaft, and not paying attention to Sun.. :-) Microsoft's in court for a ton of things, I tend to filter it out. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 14:38:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18046 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:38:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18040 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:38:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16414; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:38:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd016395; Sun Nov 1 15:38:21 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA29226; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:38:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811012238.PAA29226@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:38:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981102080413.G19187@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 2, 98 08:04:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape > >> code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in > >> violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. > > > > By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications > > that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas > > unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to > > as yet unresolve court decisions. > > 1. This stuff doesn't run on FreeBSD. Solaris Binaries now run on FreeBSD, if you install the execution class loader and the Solaris shared libraries (to cover the gratuitous incompatability of FreeBSD with the IABI). I haven't personally tried to run IE, but there's little reason to believe that it wouldn't work. > 2. I don't care too much about court decisions. The evidence I've > seen leaves no doubt that Microsoft is in deliberate breach of > contract with Sun over the Java content. In my book, that's > piracy. Actually, that's "breach of contract" if you can prove it, and "libel" if you can't. It's not up to us to enforce Microsoft to comply with rules of law or even of some fuzzy definition of sportsmanlike conduct. > > Not. > > Not for the first time, you're missing the point. You're the one missing the point. I don't give a damn if Microsoft is Evil with a capital 'E', or if Bill Gates is The One True AntiChrist, with the 6's tatooed under his hairline to prove it. It's irrelevent and orthogonal to better advocacy of FreeBSD. Not that I think that Microsoft would put a FreeBSD daemon on the artwork for IE for Solaris in any case... But if they *did*, it'd be tantamount to diplomatic recognition of FreeBSD by the equivalent of a country on the UN Security council. And that's good for advocacy of FreeBSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 14:44:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18870 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18825 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:43:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4017.ime.net [209.90.195.27]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id RAA11831; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:43:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981101173945.00af9ee0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 17:41:01 -0500 To: Terry Lambert , grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811012238.PAA29226@usr05.primenet.com> References: <19981102080413.G19187@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:38 PM 11/1/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape >> >> code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in >> >> violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. >> > >> > By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications >> > that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas >> > unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to >> > as yet unresolve court decisions. >> >> 1. This stuff doesn't run on FreeBSD. > >Solaris Binaries now run on FreeBSD, if you install the execution >class loader and the Solaris shared libraries (to cover the gratuitous >incompatability of FreeBSD with the IABI). > >I haven't personally tried to run IE, but there's little reason to >believe that it wouldn't work. > > >> 2. I don't care too much about court decisions. The evidence I've >> seen leaves no doubt that Microsoft is in deliberate breach of >> contract with Sun over the Java content. In my book, that's >> piracy. > >Actually, that's "breach of contract" if you can prove it, and >"libel" if you can't. > >It's not up to us to enforce Microsoft to comply with rules of >law or even of some fuzzy definition of sportsmanlike conduct. > > >> > Not. >> >> Not for the first time, you're missing the point. > > >You're the one missing the point. I don't give a damn if Microsoft >is Evil with a capital 'E', or if Bill Gates is The One True >AntiChrist, with the 6's tatooed under his hairline to prove it. > >It's irrelevent and orthogonal to better advocacy of FreeBSD. > > >Not that I think that Microsoft would put a FreeBSD daemon on >the artwork for IE for Solaris in any case... > >But if they *did*, it'd be tantamount to diplomatic recognition of >FreeBSD by the equivalent of a country on the UN Security council. > >And that's good for advocacy of FreeBSD. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Interesting thought. Personally I think the IE4 Logo should be a picture of Bill Gates getting a bullet to the head, over, and over, and over.. At the same time, where abouts is the material on Solaris binaries? I have a Solaris box running 2.6 right now, if I don't need it, I can nuke it and make it another FreeBSD box.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 20:03:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27397 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:03:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA27389 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:03:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 29773 invoked by uid 1003); 2 Nov 1998 04:02:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19981102060257.A29444@rucus.ru.ac.za> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:02:57 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Halloween Document Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi This was pushed in my direction, I thought it might be relevant reading. Distressing to see various inconsistencies/untruths about BSD there, too. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 20:17:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29630 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:17:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA29623 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:17:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 2049 invoked by uid 1003); 2 Nov 1998 04:17:50 -0000 Message-ID: <19981102061750.A1862@rucus.ru.ac.za> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 06:17:50 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 6am stupidity, and the actual URL. References: <19981102060257.A29444@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981102060257.A29444@rucus.ru.ac.za>; from Neil Blakey-Milner on Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 06:02:57AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon 1998-11-02 (06:02), Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > Hi > > This was pushed in my direction, I thought it might be relevant reading. > > Distressing to see various inconsistencies/untruths about BSD there, too. Let's try that again - http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 21:03:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04999 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04984 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id VAA07924; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:02:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981101210227.B6579@best.com> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:02:28 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Neil Blakey-Milner , FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 6am stupidity, and the actual URL. References: <19981102060257.A29444@rucus.ru.ac.za> <19981102061750.A1862@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981102061750.A1862@rucus.ru.ac.za>; from Neil Blakey-Milner on Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 06:17:50AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Nov 02, 1998 at 06:17:50AM +0200, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Mon 1998-11-02 (06:02), Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > Hi > > > > This was pushed in my direction, I thought it might be relevant reading. > > > > Distressing to see various inconsistencies/untruths about BSD there, too. > > Let's try that again - http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html > > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message Seem to me neither esr nor MS have a clue when they are talking about BSD. *sigh* -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 21:24:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08584 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:24:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-12.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08569 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:24:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28629; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:28:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:28:47 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Neil Blakey-Milner cc: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Halloween Document In-Reply-To: <19981102060257.A29444@rucus.ru.ac.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: [...] > This was pushed in my direction, I thought it might be relevant reading. > > Distressing to see various inconsistencies/untruths about BSD there, too. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Kinda worrysome to see that they claimed Linux has the fastest networking stack and is the only one gaining market share. Just makes me wonder, what tests could IIS possibly be faster than Apache on? And if they're going to put IIS into the kernel, why not put Office *grin* and see how much faster that gets. Hum, all this laughing hurts. - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 21:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10816 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:42:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10809 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:42:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01162; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:40:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <363D45D1.2887F23@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 22:40:33 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: Drew Baxter , grog@lemis.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD certified software (was: WordPerfect 8 for Linux) References: <199811011955.MAA24027@usr05.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > That makes sense. It's not like it's going to kill anyone to throw > > together some install tools. After all, it's a good plug for their product > > as well to have support for FreeBSD.. > > The install tools should be thrown together *by* FreeBSD people, > and *given* to the vendor, for non-native binaries. > > Branding at all should *require* a FreeBSD "install presence". I think the discussion has evolved beyond this point. The general consensus now seems to be will have a web page of "works in progress" that includes applications currently known to work on FreeBSD, but which do not yet qualify for the logo status because they don't yet have a relatively goof-proof installer. We've also come to a rough consensus that the installer required for the "Works with" (or whatever we call it) logo may be supplied by the vendor OR by FreeBSD volunteers; the existence of the installer is far more important than who created. We also feel that vendors should be encouraged to develop FreeBSD installers. ;^) I think we're ready to move forward with this; if anyone has any strong disagreements please voice them. This proposal, once fully developed, should be run by the core team for their comment as well. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 21:58:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12846 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:58:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12838 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris (56k-port4017.ime.net [209.90.195.27]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id AAA12176; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:58:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981102004810.009c5ee0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 00:49:29 -0500 To: Wes Peters , Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD certified software (was: WordPerfect 8 for Linux) Cc: grog@lemis.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <363D45D1.2887F23@softweyr.com> References: <199811011955.MAA24027@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:40 PM 11/1/98 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> > That makes sense. It's not like it's going to kill anyone to throw >> > together some install tools. After all, it's a good plug for their product >> > as well to have support for FreeBSD.. >> >> The install tools should be thrown together *by* FreeBSD people, >> and *given* to the vendor, for non-native binaries. >> >> Branding at all should *require* a FreeBSD "install presence". > >I think the discussion has evolved beyond this point. The general >consensus now seems to be will have a web page of "works in progress" >that includes applications currently known to work on FreeBSD, but >which do not yet qualify for the logo status because they don't yet >have a relatively goof-proof installer. > >We've also come to a rough consensus that the installer required for >the "Works with" (or whatever we call it) logo may be supplied by the >vendor OR by FreeBSD volunteers; the existence of the installer is >far more important than who created. We also feel that vendors should >be encouraged to develop FreeBSD installers. ;^) > >I think we're ready to move forward with this; if anyone has any >strong disagreements please voice them. This proposal, once fully >developed, should be run by the core team for their comment as well. > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes Peters Softweyr LLC >http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com Well I've got a question namely.. I think after all of the revision (2 or 3 logo classes, etc), that there should be a recap of what actually has been established. But from what I've seen and recollected.. I haven't had any reason to disagree anyway. It's just a lot of mail that's streamed through here regarding the topic lately. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 22:01:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13279 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13271 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05485; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:00:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981101220056.A5338@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:00:56 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Alex Zepeda , Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Halloween Document Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19981102060257.A29444@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Zepeda on Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 09:28:47PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 09:28:47PM -0800, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > [...] > > This was pushed in my direction, I thought it might be relevant reading. > > > > Distressing to see various inconsistencies/untruths about BSD there, too. > > Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Kinda worrysome to see that they > claimed Linux has the fastest networking stack and is the only one gaining > market share. hmmmm, this does not compute. If they claim that Linux has the fastest networking stack then why did they, reportedly, lift the FreeBSD stack for use in either win98 or NT ? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 22:07:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14567 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-12.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14561 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:07:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29075; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:11:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:11:16 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Josef Grosch cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Halloween Document In-Reply-To: <19981101220056.A5338@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: [...] > > Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Kinda worrysome to see that they > > claimed Linux has the fastest networking stack and is the only one gaining > > market share. > > hmmmm, this does not compute. If they claim that Linux has the fastest > networking stack then why did they, reportedly, lift the FreeBSD stack for > use in either win98 or NT ? Have you seen Queso? It can't distinguish between NT and 95 from what I've heard. Ever wonder why? Winsock2 is somewhat of a rewrite, but I seriously doubt it's based on FreeBSD specifically. Somehow I doubt it's based on ANY rfc. - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 22:44:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19840 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:44:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19830 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02222; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:43:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <363D548C.45B659F0@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 23:43:24 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Baxter CC: Terry Lambert , grog@lemis.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD certified software (was: WordPerfect 8 for Linux) References: <199811011955.MAA24027@usr05.primenet.com> <4.1.19981102004810.009c5ee0@genesis.ispace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter wrote: > > At 10:40 PM 11/1/98 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > >I think we're ready to move forward with this; if anyone has any > >strong disagreements please voice them. This proposal, once fully > >developed, should be run by the core team for their comment as well. > > Well I've got a question namely.. I think after all of the revision (2 or 3 > logo classes, etc), that there should be a recap of what actually has been > established. Yeah, it's too late to do it tonight, so I'll try to write up the points we've pretty much summed up so far. We still haven't come up with names for the two logo categories, or for the third category of "works in progress." Keep in mind this is marketing work, so they need to be representative, but most of all they need to roll off the tongue easily and to appeal to the widest possible market. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 1 22:48:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20278 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:48:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20273 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 22:48:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id BAA13661 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 01:48:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 01:48:17 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 6am stupidity, and the actual URL. In-Reply-To: <19981102061750.A1862@rucus.ru.ac.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This whole document is laughable. The ammount of facts = 0. My favorite parts are the BSD ones. "Linux is killing BSD Unix" No accounting for taste. Of course the windows of the UNIX world is going to be more popular to the masses. But as has been stated before the *BSD's are not gimp boxes for the home drooler, were a server OS. In that context we shred Linux. And in many countries outside the US I would beg to differ on Linux killing us in any regard. "However, Berkeley put severe restrictions on non-academic uses of the codebase." ??? Someone is smoking some heavy ganja. "In order to create a fully free version of BSD UNIX, an ad hoc (but closed) team of developers created FreeBSD." See above. Im assuming in a theoretical, backwards, time traveling way these statements tie in with the BSD/USL thing. I guess. Id have to be smoking what the author is to understand for sure. I don't tend to believe this came from MS. While possible I find the absolute disregard for facts, and Pro Linux, Con BSD tilt to this a little to strong. I mean if the DOJ has trouble getting dox out of MS, It's not too likely that something like this would just "slip out" into someones hands. Its a good laugh if you need one though. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 2 09:32:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11060 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:32:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11052 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:32:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with UUCP id KAA11629; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:32:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA05519; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:27:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:27:23 -0800 (PST) From: Marc Slemko To: Alex Zepeda cc: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Halloween Document In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > [...] > > This was pushed in my direction, I thought it might be relevant reading. > > > > Distressing to see various inconsistencies/untruths about BSD there, too. > > Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Kinda worrysome to see that they > claimed Linux has the fastest networking stack and is the only one gaining > market share. Distressing? Not at all. The whole reason why MS is having to deal with this open source issue now is that they were somewhat blindsided by the extent to which it could develop. Having them be dismissive is good in a lot of ways. > > Just makes me wonder, what tests could IIS possibly be faster than Apache > on? Many benchmark situations involving strictly static content will show IIS to be faster than Apache[0] > And if they're going to put IIS into the kernel, why not put Office > *grin* and see how much faster that gets. Moving parts of IIS to the kernel _IS_ something that I know they are working on. This is just one of the several things in there that are not secret, but aren't really public knowledge AFAIK. Regardless of if this is true MS speak or not, it is still very useful for anyone interested in advocacy (of things other than MS) to read since it quite accurately depicts their mindframe. [0] Well, if you want advocacy you can claim that Apache holds (or did anyway, these things change weekly) the single procssor specweb96 record. Just don't mention that it is on NT using IBM's in-kernel web caching stuff. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 2 17:21:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA13115 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:21:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thyme.cisco.com (thyme.cisco.com [171.69.43.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13107 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:21:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shibumi@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thyme.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA28929; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:21:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811030121.RAA28929@thyme.cisco.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 6am stupidity, and the actual URL. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Nov 1998 01:48:17 EST." Reply-to: shibumi@cisco.com X-Disclaimer: Unless otherwise noted below, this is not a policy statement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:21:03 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It's (reportedly) been confirmed by MS that the document is theirs. The WSJ is supposed to print a story about it on Wednesday. > > This whole document is laughable. The ammount of facts = 0. > My favorite parts are the BSD ones. > > "Linux is killing BSD Unix" No accounting for taste. Of course the windows > of the UNIX world is going to be more popular to the masses. But as has > been stated before the *BSD's are not gimp boxes for the home drooler, > were a server OS. In that context we shred Linux. And in many countries > outside the US I would beg to differ on Linux killing us in any regard. > > "However, Berkeley put severe restrictions on non-academic uses of > the codebase." ??? Someone is smoking some heavy ganja. > > "In order to create a fully free version of BSD UNIX, an ad hoc (but > closed) team of developers created FreeBSD." See above. Im assuming in a > theoretical, backwards, time traveling way these statements tie in with > the BSD/USL thing. I guess. Id have to be smoking what the author is to > understand for sure. > > I don't tend to believe this came from MS. While possible I find the > absolute disregard for facts, and Pro Linux, Con BSD tilt to this a little > to strong. I mean if the DOJ has trouble getting dox out of MS, It's not > too likely that something like this would just "slip out" into someones > hands. > > Its a good laugh if you need one though. > > Chris > -- > "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is > driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't > tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters > > ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. > FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 > -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 > FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Securit y > ===================================| http://open-systems.net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message | Kenton A. Hoover Network Team Manager | shibumi@cisco.com | | Engineering Computer Services | | | Cisco Systems, Inc. | +1.408.526.5249 | |===================== http://www.shockwave.com/~shibumi ====================| | "Years ago my mother said to me, 'In this world, Ellwood, you must be oh | | so smart or oh so pleasant.' For years I was smart. I recommend | | pleasant." -- Ellwood P. Dowd, "Harvey" | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 2 18:01:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18309 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-10.airnet.net [207.242.81.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18297 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA03560; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:59:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <363E6362.47F996E3@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:58:58 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: shibumi@cisco.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 6am stupidity, and the actual URL. References: <199811030121.RAA28929@thyme.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kenton A. Hoover wrote: > > It's (reportedly) been confirmed by MS that the document is theirs. The WSJ > is supposed to print a story about it on Wednesday. > All its going to prove is that the Dilbert Principle is alive and well in Microsoft. That and they obviously don't know how to write something original. I like Jordan's explaination. -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 2 19:31:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29663 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:31:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29627 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:31:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05384; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:32:01 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:32:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: "Kenton A. Hoover" cc: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 6am stupidity, and the actual URL. In-Reply-To: <199811030121.RAA28929@thyme.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, it is clear MS does not do their homework... I guess that is why Linux is able to gain market share. You also have to remember, Microsoft started late into the Internet boom, and is not clear on how to win the race anymore. Before it was all money, how they are dealing with several operating systems that are free. I think by the end of the century MS will have a free OS, like Linux and FreeBSD. -- Phillip Salzman "The mind is but a single process of pity..." On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Kenton A. Hoover wrote: > It's (reportedly) been confirmed by MS that the document is theirs. The WSJ > is supposed to print a story about it on Wednesday. > > > > > This whole document is laughable. The ammount of facts = 0. > > My favorite parts are the BSD ones. > > > > "Linux is killing BSD Unix" No accounting for taste. Of course the windows > > of the UNIX world is going to be more popular to the masses. But as has > > been stated before the *BSD's are not gimp boxes for the home drooler, > > were a server OS. In that context we shred Linux. And in many countries > > outside the US I would beg to differ on Linux killing us in any regard. > > > > "However, Berkeley put severe restrictions on non-academic uses of > > the codebase." ??? Someone is smoking some heavy ganja. > > > > "In order to create a fully free version of BSD UNIX, an ad hoc (but > > closed) team of developers created FreeBSD." See above. Im assuming in a > > theoretical, backwards, time traveling way these statements tie in with > > the BSD/USL thing. I guess. Id have to be smoking what the author is to > > understand for sure. > > > > I don't tend to believe this came from MS. While possible I find the > > absolute disregard for facts, and Pro Linux, Con BSD tilt to this a little > > to strong. I mean if the DOJ has trouble getting dox out of MS, It's not > > too likely that something like this would just "slip out" into someones > > hands. > > > > Its a good laugh if you need one though. > > > > Chris > > -- > > "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is > > driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't > > tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters > > > > ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. > > FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 > > -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 > > FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Securit > y > > ===================================| http://open-systems.net > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > | Kenton A. Hoover Network Team Manager | shibumi@cisco.com | > | Engineering Computer Services | | > | Cisco Systems, Inc. | +1.408.526.5249 | > |===================== http://www.shockwave.com/~shibumi ====================| > | "Years ago my mother said to me, 'In this world, Ellwood, you must be oh | > | so smart or oh so pleasant.' For years I was smart. I recommend | > | pleasant." -- Ellwood P. Dowd, "Harvey" | > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 05:00:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04043 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 05:00:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04038 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 05:00:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris ([209.90.195.16]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id PAA11483; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:01:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981101145424.00a62a00@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 14:56:02 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD certified software (was: WordPerfect 8 for Linux) Cc: grog@lemis.com, tlambert@primenet.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811011955.MAA24027@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19981030212143.00a84420@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:55 PM 11/1/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> I would like to see three categories: >> >> >> >> o Can be made to run with effort >> >> o Install tools, but non-native binaries >> >> o Native binaries. >> > >> >You're late on the scene, Terry. This is exactly what I suggested >> >several days ago. > >Not quite exactly what you suggested... I think I've drawn a >harder line on the limits of marketing implied by the first item. > > >> >I think that others have made a valid point, though: if we include the >> >first category, we don't give much incentive for them to take the >> >relatively small step to the second category. I think we should refer >> >to the first category in an also-ran web page, but not issue >> >certificates unless they go at least to the second category. >> >> That makes sense. It's not like it's going to kill anyone to throw >> together some install tools. After all, it's a good plug for their product >> as well to have support for FreeBSD.. > >The install tools should be thrown together *by* FreeBSD people, >and *given* to the vendor, for non-native binaries. > >Branding at all should *require* a FreeBSD "install presence". > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Different tools are for different things though. I don't see a specific install-tool set for Windows 95 Certified materials. Sure, this is a different level because we have to deal with source issues, but there should be a similarity of some sort. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 05:01:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04100 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 05:01:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04095 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 05:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from Celeris ([209.90.195.16]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id OAA11467; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:48:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981101144057.00a425e0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 14:42:23 -0500 To: Terry Lambert , grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811011941.MAA23590@usr05.primenet.com> References: <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:41 PM 11/1/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I don't think that's being creative. We don't know how much Netscape >> code is in IE, but Microsoft has abused Java code in there in >> violation of the licensing restrictions. In my book, that's piracy. > >By all means, let's artificially limit the number of applications >that appear to run on FreeBSD by imposing political agendas >unrelated to the agenda of FreeBSD advocacy, and unrelated to >as yet unresolve court decisions. > >Not. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 06:03:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11216 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11207 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 06:03:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28802; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:00:19 GMT Message-ID: <363F0C98.A28707D@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:00:56 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://ints.ml.org/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Baxter CC: Terry Lambert , grog@lemis.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD certified software (was: WordPerfect 8 for Linux) References: <4.1.19981030212143.00a84420@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19981101145424.00a62a00@genesis.ispace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter wrote: > > Different tools are for different things though. I don't see a specific > install-tool set for Windows 95 Certified materials. That's because the "official" way of installing programs with win95 is a routine that searches floppies and CD's for a program named "setup" "install" and the like (see "add/remove programs" control panel). The "official" way for FreeBSD is presumably ports or packages... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 08:21:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27951 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27944 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00713 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 08:21:56 -0800 Message-ID: <709.910110116@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ caution - this is a bit long. Lots of points here I've been wanting to cover for awhile and now seems as good a time as any.. ] OK, so we've all seen this latest bit of Linux leaping about and shouting from the rooftops and some of us have even gone "agh!" and run around a bit ourselves, but now that we've all hopefully calmed down again I'd like to say a few words about this and the state of FreeBSD advocacy in general. First off, just to cover the Halloween memo in brief, yes it appears to be genuinely from Microsoft and yes, it appears to be genuinely full of statements culled from various Linux evangelists who feel no pangs at making blatantly false pronouncements like "Linux is the only OS experiencing growth" or "Linux is the only contender for the x86 platform." These types of statements are pure hooey, of course, and FreeBSD is currently doing better than it has at any previous point in its history. Our releases are starting to finally hit their stride, it seems (and try to remember back to the days when it was more like: "My god! We did it! A release!"), and our rate of innovation and self- improvement hasn't been higher since the 2.0 days - it's very encouraging to see that we can spur ourselves to such heights of productivity *without* legal injunctions staring us in the face! :-) Second, we have to keep sight of the fact that none of this is particularly new or even interesting. We know that Linux is the current poster child of the press and we also know about the press's irritating predilection for focusing on one and only one champion rather than looking more in depth at the situation. We can yell and scream all we like, but we're not going to change the fact that for many journalists investigating "Open Source", Linux is the first and possibly only thing they're going to look at. It simply has the right sized hype-bubble surrounding it where we do not. We also have to accept the fact that ISVs are going to target their products at the much more obvious Linux market and try to strike deals with it, going "FreeBSD? What's that?" when asked about a native port. The same goes for investment, selling shares in Red Hat, Inc., etc. Money always goes after the visible markets first. What you have to ask yourselves, looking at the dynamics of this situation as dispassionately as possible, is whether all of this is necessarily as bad a thing as some of the gloom-n-doomers would have us believe. Looking at only the superficial indicators, it's easy to say that "Linux is winning and we're losing", pointing to the stacks of Linux books and magazines in the bookstores, the Clinton transcripts where he mentions Linux, the Goodyear blimp circling overhead with Linus's smiling face shining from it, etc etc. It's especially easy to say that when you hold Linux and FreeBSD in your mind as equivalent products, started at the same time and with the same overall development mentality. The fact of the matter is that Linux and FreeBSD are NOT equivalent products with identical user and developer communities surrounding them, however. We've *always* been lower key about things, preferring to quietly focus on the business of steadily turning out quality products to only moderate fanfare. It's no use screaming for teams of FreeBSD fan dancers to come out and start singing the praises of FreeBSD in full 4-part hyperbole with some grinning, cigar-chomping promoter standing in the background - that's just not us. The nay-sayers will also say that "this not being us" will surely be our downfall since you gotta sing and dance now if you want to be noticed, but I'm really not so sure about that. To my way of thinking, we have our style and we have our niche and they're both respectable in their own way. Not everyone buys toilet paper because a team of singing rabbits (to paraphrase the great Rod Serling) suggested it on television, and some people DO react positively to the somewhat less superficial attributes of quality, consistency and a focus on the technology rather than on standing in front of the cameras and saying things like "open source validates the concept of a basic human sociological tropism towards cooperation and the free and open exchange of .." to some vapid blond on Technology Week. That kind of approach might also get all the sound bites this week, but remember the old "15 minutes of fame" effect and the fact that the press is going to get bored with Linux eventually and go off in search of other things they don't understand to dissect. When that inevitably happens, it's going to be back to quality and those groups who remained true to their basic operating principles and didn't get sucked in and destroyed by excessive growth or hype. The opportunities for wandering off and getting lost in the woods in pursuit of some bright and shiny object have never been higher than they are now, and somebody's bound to panic and go off and do something stupid in an effort to differentiate themselves. I don't think we have any need to panic at all and should simply keep doing what we're doing and try to do it as best we can. I'm not saying that there's no room for improvement, and some alliances *are* being made with various artist/marketing types whom we think can help us get the attention we deserve, but it's not the same as saying that we're going to drop everything and go play Linux's game now. That would be the wrong move and I can only point to the history of BSD itself when searching for good examples of technologies which have remained viable long after "losing" a war to a competitor. BSD "lost" to SYSV over a decade ago, but did that kill it? Quite apparently not and it appears to be doing better today than it ever did even back in its heyday, when it ran on a large collection of VAXes but hardly any of the commodity (68K) hardware at all (you had to buy an obscure 32016 based machine if you wanted to run BSD at home :-). The situation today is vastly improved by comparison and most people don't even stop to think about that. In any case, I didn't mean this posting as a fluffy "we're fine!" sorta thing, though I do think that people sometimes lose sight of our own growth rate and notable successes when furrowing their brows over the latest Linux PR victory, I do have a summary of points I think we can and should improve: 1. Keep pushing the magazine articles out. These seem to be easier for people than books and I've largely given up on trying to incite a FreeBSD book to happen - I guess that will just occur in its own good time. Walnut Creek CDROM is still paying a bounty for magazine articles (matching funds for your fee) and has enabled more than one person to buy a new machine for the price of one weekend's writing for a good cause. Pick a target publication and go for it, folks! I've done about 3 of these so far (maybe more, I forget :) and can say that it's not that hard. You generate a simple article outline and you submit it to the editor along with your proposal for what you're trying to accomplish with the article (just a paragraph or two of text, not a thesis). If they're interested, they'll send you back details on how long they want the article to be (generally 500-1000 words) and how much they're willing to pay. When they pay, send us a photocopy/FAX of your royalty check and we'll pay too. It's that simple, and it good for FreeBSD to appear in print like this since it reaches outside the somewhat closed audience of the mailing lists. 2. Look at Linux as a door opener, not a threat. I mean this, folks, even you rabid Linux haters out there. Consider very carefully the fact that if customer A needs a PC to do server job B, customer A is going to do one of four things: A) Buy NT B) Buy a commercial Unix C) Buy Linux D) Buy *BSD Those really are about the only 4 options for building a department fileserver or gateway box with cheap, commodity hardware (we'll assume the people who don't want cheap buy Cisco gear, Suns and NetApp filers anyway) and let's look at them in turn: A) If they buy NT, you can pretty much write them off. By the time they realize what they've gotten themselves into, the investment (or embarrassment) is generally too great to back out of anyway and it's actually very few IS shops that seem to claw their way back from NT and install a free OS instead. Sure, you hear widely trumpeted stories whenever some large ISP does make it back from NT, but its very rareness is what makes it something to trumpet about. NT is Darth Vader here and we must fear his control of the dark side (marketing) and the fact that "everybody knows NT" when the issue of personnel comes up with most pointy-haired managers. B) Is a much better option since at least the customer has accepted Unix as their savior and can potentially be won over at some point by OSS, but the fact that they chose a commercial Unix probably also means that they have deep-seated needs for tech support or inter-operability with other parts of the IS shop and you'll probably have to work on them for awhile to win them over. C) Here now we've at least accomplished two things: We've got the customer admitting that they want Unix and that they want a free Unix. Furthermore, they've chosen a solution which we think we can beat in all the taste tests if we can just get the CD in front of their faces. All in all, this has got to be the easiest conversion of the three and a definite win if their only other options were A or B. D) Yay! Of course we like this one, but if it's not FreeBSD then we still have a bit of a conversion job to do and it might even require something like a SPARC port to be able to offer the same cross-platform inter-operability that the user has chosen the other *BSD for. It's something to think about, and certainly no better than the Linux scenario in some ways (again, if you're just thinking about this from the pure, mercenary "how do we get more FreeBSD users" perspective). 3. Hold your advocacy to a higher standard, and by this I mean that if we're to weather this whole PR blitz period with our reputation for being "the calm and level-headed ones" intact, we can't stoop to the level of some Linux advocates when trying to make short-term gains against their PR blitzes. Sometimes you just have to be Gandi. When the press have gone away, believe me, people will remember which groups stuck to their guns and didn't compromise their identities or ideals and which went sort of nuts and participated in a few raping and pillaging sessions. I'd far rather be the group still standing there when the smoke clears going "Yup, we're still here and still doing good software without the fanfare or fancy costumes. Have a look!" To put it another way: If FreeBSD were a respected musical entertainer, I would want her to be the one who stuck to doing the kind of music she liked and always did it well rather than horrifying us during the disco years by suddenly putting on spandex pants and lip-syncing to formulaic, song-factory material or shrieking out heavy-metal lyrics in heavy makeup with Axel Rose 10 years later. :-) Sometimes the price of "success" is too high. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 09:17:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07262 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07257 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:17:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id JAA16529; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA01168; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:15:41 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id KAA28388; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:15:39 -0700 Message-ID: <363F3A3B.2C4F2B9B@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 10:15:39 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phillip Salzman CC: "Kenton A. Hoover" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the Halloween Document References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Phillip Salzman wrote: > > Yes, it is clear MS does not do their homework... I guess that is > why Linux is able to gain market share. You also have to remember, > Microsoft started late into the Internet boom, and is not clear > on how to win the race anymore. > > Before it was all money, how they are dealing with several operating > systems that are free. I think by the end of the century MS will have > a free OS, like Linux and FreeBSD. As several prominent Linuxers have pointed out, Microsoft can't really "hijack" Linux. They certainly can, however, produce "MS-BSD", and can do it quite quickly. (How long does it take to add a Microsoft copyright to every source and binary file in the FreeBSD distribution? See what I mean?) While I'm not that hyped on the idea of Microsoft attempting to dominate the market through yet another soon-to-be-proprietary standard, it sure would be straightforward to implement an "MS-BSD" binary emulator in FreeBSD, wouldn't it? This might even give us "Office" for FreeBSD. What a pleasant thought. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 09:25:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08989 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:25:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08981 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA28109; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:24:39 -0500 (EST) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199811031724.MAA28109@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:24:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <709.910110116@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 3, 98 08:21:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > [ caution - this is a bit long. Lots of points here I've been > wanting to cover for awhile and now seems as good a time as any.. ] > > OK, so we've all seen this latest bit of Linux leaping about and > shouting from the rooftops and some of us have even gone "agh!" and > run around a bit ourselves, but now that we've all hopefully calmed > down again I'd like to say a few words about this and the state of > FreeBSD advocacy in general. Agreed... Actually, the memo was interesting. I'm going to re-edit it to drop the ESR comments and reread it. I want to see the unedited MS comments to judge on its own merits. > > First off, just to cover the Halloween memo in brief, yes it appears > to be genuinely from Microsoft and yes, it appears to be genuinely > full of statements culled from various Linux evangelists who feel no > pangs at making blatantly false pronouncements like "Linux is the only > OS experiencing growth" or "Linux is the only contender for the x86 > platform." These types of statements are pure hooey, of course, and > FreeBSD is currently doing better than it has at any previous point in > its history. Our releases are starting to finally hit their stride, > it seems (and try to remember back to the days when it was more like: > "My god! We did it! A release!"), and our rate of innovation and > self- improvement hasn't been higher since the 2.0 days - it's very > encouraging to see that we can spur ourselves to such heights of > productivity *without* legal injunctions staring us in the face! :-) > Yup.. > Second, we have to keep sight of the fact that none of this is > particularly new or even interesting. We know that Linux is the > current poster child of the press and we also know about the press's > irritating predilection for focusing on one and only one champion > rather than looking more in depth at the situation. We can yell and > scream all we like, but we're not going to change the fact that for > many journalists investigating "Open Source", Linux is the first and > possibly only thing they're going to look at. It simply has the right > sized hype-bubble surrounding it where we do not. So far. Actually, having Linux in the sights of MS keeps them from looking at us... and I think they have much more to worry about from the *BSD community. (Although I feel a unified BSD thrust on installation, SVR4 package support, Unix95 complience would be better, although not too likely. Imagine loading Solaris X86 binaries on FreeBSD, Sun FrameMaker on NetBSD...) > We also have to accept the fact that ISVs are going to target their > products at the much more obvious Linux market and try to strike deals > with it, going "FreeBSD? What's that?" when asked about a native > port. The same goes for investment, selling shares in Red Hat, Inc., > etc. Money always goes after the visible markets first. > > What you have to ask yourselves, looking at the dynamics of this > situation as dispassionately as possible, is whether all of this is > necessarily as bad a thing as some of the gloom-n-doomers would have > us believe. Looking at only the superficial indicators, it's easy to > say that "Linux is winning and we're losing", pointing to the stacks > of Linux books and magazines in the bookstores, the Clinton > transcripts where he mentions Linux, the Goodyear blimp circling > overhead with Linus's smiling face shining from it, etc etc. It's > especially easy to say that when you hold Linux and FreeBSD in your > mind as equivalent products, started at the same time and with the > same overall development mentality. That's the mistake. Linux and FreeBSD didn't start at the same time. Linux started from nothing. *BSD's got over 20 years of history and engineering in it. We SHOULD be proud of this and advertise that. > > The fact of the matter is that Linux and FreeBSD are NOT equivalent > products with identical user and developer communities surrounding > them, however. We've *always* been lower key about things, preferring > to quietly focus on the business of steadily turning out quality > products to only moderate fanfare. It's no use screaming for teams of > FreeBSD fan dancers to come out and start singing the praises of > FreeBSD in full 4-part hyperbole with some grinning, cigar-chomping > promoter standing in the background - that's just not us. The > nay-sayers will also say that "this not being us" will surely be our > downfall since you gotta sing and dance now if you want to be noticed, > but I'm really not so sure about that. To my way of thinking, we have > our style and we have our niche and they're both respectable in their > own way. Not everyone buys toilet paper because a team of singing > rabbits (to paraphrase the great Rod Serling) suggested it on > television, and some people DO react positively to the somewhat less > superficial attributes of quality, consistency and a focus on the > technology rather than on standing in front of the cameras and saying > things like "open source validates the concept of a basic human > sociological tropism towards cooperation and the free and open > exchange of .." to some vapid blond on Technology Week. Well, Eveready's done real well with a bunny and Intel's done well with a guy in a bunny suit. Ah, if I can FreeBSD flamethrower an MS guy in a bunny suit on TV just once 8-). Win95, it needs rebooting and rebooting and rebooting... WinNT, it needs resources and resources and resources... FreeBSD, it keeps running and running and running... > > That kind of approach might also get all the sound bites this week, > but remember the old "15 minutes of fame" effect and the fact that the > press is going to get bored with Linux eventually and go off in search > of other things they don't understand to dissect. When that > inevitably happens, it's going to be back to quality and those groups > who remained true to their basic operating principles and didn't get > sucked in and destroyed by excessive growth or hype. The > opportunities for wandering off and getting lost in the woods in > pursuit of some bright and shiny object have never been higher than > they are now, and somebody's bound to panic and go off and do > something stupid in an effort to differentiate themselves. I don't > think we have any need to panic at all and should simply keep doing > what we're doing and try to do it as best we can. > > I'm not saying that there's no room for improvement, and some > alliances *are* being made with various artist/marketing types whom we > think can help us get the attention we deserve, but it's not the same > as saying that we're going to drop everything and go play Linux's game > now. That would be the wrong move and I can only point to the history > of BSD itself when searching for good examples of technologies which > have remained viable long after "losing" a war to a competitor. BSD > "lost" to SYSV over a decade ago, but did that kill it? Quite > apparently not and it appears to be doing better today than it ever > did even back in its heyday, when it ran on a large collection of > VAXes but hardly any of the commodity (68K) hardware at all (you had > to buy an obscure 32016 based machine if you wanted to run BSD at home :-). > The situation today is vastly improved by comparison and most people > don't even stop to think about that. > It's time to stop worrying about the *BSD vs. SysV history and flame wars. SysV won. They've got the applications we need here commercially (Frame, Acrobat Distiler). I'd put FreeBSD on the desktops for my office in a minute if it could do those things under emulation or otherwise. We (my office and probably most IS driven shops) need Win95's office97 compatible output from a Word Processor and Spreadsheet to make Linux or SCO or Solaris or *BSD my desktop box. Right now I'm recommending Ultra 10's with Insignia's RealPC Pentium emulation. I'm working on crash problems in Win95 with Word, however. > In any case, I didn't mean this posting as a fluffy "we're fine!" > sorta thing, though I do think that people sometimes lose sight of our > own growth rate and notable successes when furrowing their brows over > the latest Linux PR victory, I do have a summary of points I think we > can and should improve: > > 1. Keep pushing the magazine articles out. These seem to be easier for > people than books and I've largely given up on trying to incite a > FreeBSD book to happen - I guess that will just occur in its own > good time. Walnut Creek CDROM is still paying a bounty for magazine > articles (matching funds for your fee) and has enabled more than one > person to buy a new machine for the price of one weekend's writing > for a good cause. Pick a target publication and go for it, folks! > I've done about 3 of these so far (maybe more, I forget :) and can > say that it's not that hard. You generate a simple article outline and > you submit it to the editor along with your proposal for what > you're trying to accomplish with the article (just a paragraph or > two of text, not a thesis). If they're interested, they'll send you > back details on how long they want the article to be (generally > 500-1000 words) and how much they're willing to pay. When they > pay, send us a photocopy/FAX of your royalty check and we'll pay > too. It's that simple, and it good for FreeBSD to appear in print > like this since it reaches outside the somewhat closed audience of > the mailing lists. > > 2. Look at Linux as a door opener, not a threat. I mean this, folks, > even you rabid Linux haters out there. Consider very carefully the > fact that if customer A needs a PC to do server job B, customer A is > going to do one of four things: > > A) Buy NT > B) Buy a commercial Unix > C) Buy Linux > D) Buy *BSD > > Those really are about the only 4 options for building a department > fileserver or gateway box with cheap, commodity hardware (we'll assume > the people who don't want cheap buy Cisco gear, Suns and NetApp filers > anyway) and let's look at them in turn: Having NetApp filers and Suns I'm looking to something as nice and easy to admin and reliable as my FreeBSD stuff for general computing use and desktop use. I think FreeBSD beats Solaris and SunOS hands down for quality. I believe I get better support from FreeBSD mailing lists than ANY vendor out there. The NetApp's fine but limited and I'd love to have a FreeBSD 486 box on my desk instead of an Ultra 10. > > A) If they buy NT, you can pretty much write them off. By the time > they realize what they've gotten themselves into, the investment > (or embarrassment) is generally too great to back out of anyway and > it's actually very few IS shops that seem to claw their way back from > NT and install a free OS instead. Sure, you hear widely trumpeted > stories whenever some large ISP does make it back from NT, but its > very rareness is what makes it something to trumpet about. NT is > Darth Vader here and we must fear his control of the dark side > (marketing) and the fact that "everybody knows NT" when the issue > of personnel comes up with most pointy-haired managers. > > B) Is a much better option since at least the customer has accepted > Unix as their savior and can potentially be won over at > some point by OSS, but the fact that they chose a commercial Unix > probably also means that they have deep-seated needs for tech support > or inter-operability with other parts of the IS shop and you'll probably > have to work on them for awhile to win them over. > > C) Here now we've at least accomplished two things: We've got the > customer admitting that they want Unix and that they want a free Unix. > Furthermore, they've chosen a solution which we think we can beat > in all the taste tests if we can just get the CD in front of their > faces. All in all, this has got to be the easiest conversion of the > three and a definite win if their only other options were A or B. > > D) Yay! Of course we like this one, but if it's not FreeBSD then > we still have a bit of a conversion job to do and it might even require > something like a SPARC port to be able to offer the same cross-platform > inter-operability that the user has chosen the other *BSD for. It's > something to think about, and certainly no better than the Linux > scenario in some ways (again, if you're just thinking about this from > the pure, mercenary "how do we get more FreeBSD users" perspective). > > > 3. Hold your advocacy to a higher standard, and by this I mean that > if we're to weather this whole PR blitz period with our reputation > for being "the calm and level-headed ones" intact, we can't stoop > to the level of some Linux advocates when trying to make short-term > gains against their PR blitzes. Sometimes you just have to be Gandi. Sure. Let's lay out a plan beyond elf migration... Let's figure on having a FreeBSD press blitz in a year with 3.0 really moved to -STABLE and our emulation stuff ready... > > When the press have gone away, believe me, people will remember > which groups stuck to their guns and didn't compromise their > identities or ideals and which went sort of nuts and participated > in a few raping and pillaging sessions. I'd far rather be the > group still standing there when the smoke clears going "Yup, we're > still here and still doing good software without the fanfare or > fancy costumes. Have a look!" OK, when do we go forward. I think it's time to say something like "by June 99 we need Full 100% Linux emulation including /proc and installation tools for rpm's and such" and by December 99we should be beta-ing Solaris x86 and Unixware compatibility (including install capability). > > To put it another way: If FreeBSD were a respected musical > entertainer, I would want her to be the one who stuck to doing > the kind of music she liked and always did it well rather than > horrifying us during the disco years by suddenly putting on spandex > pants and lip-syncing to formulaic, song-factory material or > shrieking out heavy-metal lyrics in heavy makeup with Axel Rose 10 > years later. :-) Sometimes the price of "success" is too high. The point is *BSD is more versatile than a server OS and I don't want to concede the desktops to remain the Apache webserver alone. > > - Jordan > Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 09:50:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12214 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12058 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:49:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA12972; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:50:24 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:50:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Wes Peters cc: "Kenton A. Hoover" , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: re: the emails In-Reply-To: <363F3A3B.2C4F2B9B@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG True, except they would also expand on our Linux stuff to make it more like-linux because (even tho we wish it not to be) Linux is a big workstation OS. The majority of computers are workstations. This may be good in some ways, MS would bring more 3rd party developers to us. Simply because, once they port to MS-BSD - it may be real simple to also port their software to FreeBSD. But you cannot expect MS to do the Right Thing[tm]. -- Phillip Salzman "I did it, but you must prove me wrong..." On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > Phillip Salzman wrote: > > > > Yes, it is clear MS does not do their homework... I guess that is > > why Linux is able to gain market share. You also have to remember, > > Microsoft started late into the Internet boom, and is not clear > > on how to win the race anymore. > > > > Before it was all money, how they are dealing with several operating > > systems that are free. I think by the end of the century MS will have > > a free OS, like Linux and FreeBSD. > > As several prominent Linuxers have pointed out, Microsoft can't really > "hijack" Linux. They certainly can, however, produce "MS-BSD", and can > do it quite quickly. (How long does it take to add a Microsoft copyright > to every source and binary file in the FreeBSD distribution? See what I > mean?) > > While I'm not that hyped on the idea of Microsoft attempting to dominate > the market through yet another soon-to-be-proprietary standard, it sure > would be straightforward to implement an "MS-BSD" binary emulator in > FreeBSD, wouldn't it? This might even give us "Office" for FreeBSD. > > What a pleasant thought. ;^) > > -- > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? > > Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 > Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 10:15:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15665 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15658 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:15:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from snowfox@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (snowfox@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id MAA07137 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:15:38 -0600 (CST) Received: (from snowfox@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id MAA12469 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:15:38 -0600 (CST) From: Message-Id: <199811031815.MAA12469@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:15:38 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <709.910110116@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 3, 98 08:21:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [ caution - this is a bit long. Lots of points here I've been > wanting to cover for awhile and now seems as good a time as any.. ] Yay! COREDUMP! =) Myself, I run FreeBSD and Linux both. I use Linux when I want to see what's hot and new - I use FreeBSD when I actually want to use it. Linux tends to do things first, FreeBSD tends to do things right. When a non-technical friend asked why I tend to choose FreeBSD over Linux, the best way I could think of putting it was that "FreeBSD is basically Linux that stops to tie its shoes. Kind of like waiting to buy Windows until it ships with service pack eight." Linux is innovative, and FreeBSD takes no risks - when you guys say "-STABLE," you mean it. There's room for both in the OSS OS market. And the cool thing is that the professional, conservative approach seems to be paying off: FreeBSD is beginning to pull ahead a bit at a time. In some cases, FreeBSD has been months or even years ahead of Linux in adding significant features. Now, does it matter if Linux is the one in the spotlight right now? Jordan put it pretty well, but it's worth restating - this isn't just about Linux. It's about OSS. When people are just starting to get a glimpse of the OSS community is NOT the time to be jumping up and down, screaming or slamming Linux (or any other OSS OS)! Look at the situation as a very real blessing; Linux is establishing the credibility of open software. And when the hubub is all over and people are examining their options, if the FreeBSD team has kept the current pace, if the advocates have maintained a respectable image, if we -all- keep our acts together, Linux just may have beaten the cleanest, clearest path FreeBSD could have ever hoped for. Cheers! Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 10:35:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18701 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:35:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18695 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:35:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22617; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:35:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022590; Tue Nov 3 11:35:22 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01373; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:35:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811031835.LAA01373@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 18:35:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811031724.MAA28109@shell.monmouth.com> from "Bill/Carolyn Pechter" at Nov 3, 98 12:24:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It's time to stop worrying about the *BSD vs. SysV history and flame wars. > SysV won. They've got the applications we need here commercially > (Frame, Acrobat Distiler). I'd put FreeBSD on the desktops for my > office in a minute if it could do those things under emulation or > otherwise. [ ... ] > OK, when do we go forward. I think it's time to say something like > "by June 99 we need Full 100% Linux emulation including /proc and > installation tools for rpm's and such" and by December 99we should > be beta-ing Solaris x86 and Unixware compatibility (including > install capability). I think you have these in the wrong order. I think FreeBSD should move toward IABI and Solaris binary compatability in the default OS, changing system calls and manifest constant values, as necessary, to achieve this. That will get you your applications the fastest. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 11:07:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22426 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:07:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22421 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03785; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:07:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd003751; Tue Nov 3 12:07:24 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02861; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:07:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811031907.MAA02861@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:07:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981101144057.00a425e0@genesis.ispace.com> from "Drew Baxter" at Nov 1, 98 02:42:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded > the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the > whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of > Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/download/unix.htm Oops. Looks like they support HP/UX as well as Solaris... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 11:15:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23777 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:15:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23764 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:15:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4025.ime.net [209.90.195.35]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id OAA14238; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:14:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:12:31 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811031907.MAA02861@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19981101144057.00a425e0@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:07 PM 11/3/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded >> the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the >> whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of >> Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. > >http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/download/unix.htm > >Oops. Looks like they support HP/UX as well as Solaris... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org HP/UX and Solaris.. How many people are running that at home? I run Solaris here, but I'm not running HP/UX and never intend to.. Linux probably has a larger single-user base than those two combined. I'm still trying to fathom why Netscape servers (and Microsoft IE, if we're going to jaunt down that road) are not ported to FreeBSD, Linux, etc. After all, the operating system (to build/test ports) is obtainable at a convenient cost of 0$, I'd imagine the BSDI version (which there are also slim ports of as well) would port rather well to FreeBSD.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 11:17:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24185 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:17:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24173 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:17:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28890; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:17:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028838; Tue Nov 3 12:17:36 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA03061; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:17:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811031917.MAA03061@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:17:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> from "Drew Baxter" at Nov 3, 98 02:12:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > HP/UX and Solaris.. How many people are running that at home? I run Solaris > here, but I'm not running HP/UX and never intend to.. Linux probably has a > larger single-user base than those two combined. That's irrelevent. The porting effort for one UNIX vs. another is miniscule compared to what it must have taken to get it onto UNIX from Windows in the first place. > I'm still trying to fathom why Netscape servers (and Microsoft IE, if we're > going to jaunt down that road) are not ported to FreeBSD, Linux, etc. I think you mean IIS... > After all, the operating system (to build/test ports) is obtainable at a > convenient cost of 0$, I'd imagine the BSDI version (which there are also > slim ports of as well) would port rather well to FreeBSD.. Why port? The BSDI versions of the servers already run on FreeBSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 11:23:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24924 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24848 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:22:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4025.ime.net [209.90.195.35]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id OAA14249; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:22:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981103141736.00b57180@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:20:32 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811031917.MAA03061@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:17 PM 11/3/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> HP/UX and Solaris.. How many people are running that at home? I run Solaris >> here, but I'm not running HP/UX and never intend to.. Linux probably has a >> larger single-user base than those two combined. > >That's irrelevent. The porting effort for one UNIX vs. another is >miniscule compared to what it must have taken to get it onto UNIX >from Windows in the first place. > > >> I'm still trying to fathom why Netscape servers (and Microsoft IE, if we're >> going to jaunt down that road) are not ported to FreeBSD, Linux, etc. > >I think you mean IIS... > >> After all, the operating system (to build/test ports) is obtainable at a >> convenient cost of 0$, I'd imagine the BSDI version (which there are also >> slim ports of as well) would port rather well to FreeBSD.. > >Why port? The BSDI versions of the servers already run on FreeBSD. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that Netscapes Servers (I invite you to find me a version of Enterprise Server, Directory Server 3.5+, Messaging Server 3.5+, that'll work on FreeBSD) are only for Solaris, sometimes DEC Unix, and HP/UX.. I've seen some cases of Netscape only releasing something for DEC UNIX and/or Solaris, and everyone else is stuck a version back. Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program anyway, why not support Free Unixes? --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 11:57:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00300 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:57:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00294 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:57:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4020.ime.net [209.90.195.30]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id OAA14276; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:55:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981103145110.00a733d0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:53:20 -0500 To: Wes Peters From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <363F5DA4.5A56B326@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19981103141736.00b57180@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:46 PM 11/3/98 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Drew Baxter wrote: >> >> Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) >> HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that > >Because that's where they can make money? Microsoft is looking to invade >the CORPORATE desktop, and this includes people with Sun and HP workstations >on their desk, and people with Sun and HP servers in the datacenter and an >X terminal on their desk. > >> Netscapes Servers (I invite you to find me a version of Enterprise Server, >> Directory Server 3.5+, Messaging Server 3.5+, that'll work on FreeBSD) are >> only for Solaris, sometimes DEC Unix, and HP/UX.. I've seen some cases of >> Netscape only releasing something for DEC UNIX and/or Solaris, and everyone >> else is stuck a version back. > >Usually, it's Solaris, then HP/UX, then DEC, IRIX, and AIX in any order, >because that's where the installed base is, and where the sales are going. > >> Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm >> getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program >> anyway, why not support Free Unixes? > >Because Netscape can't make money there? Obviously, they believe they can >make more money for their efforts on Solaris, HP/UX, and other "big iron" >than on "itty bitty boxes." Another reason is probably the predominance >of Apache and Apache-based solutions at the low end; they have very little >incentive to compete in that arena. Would you want to compete with something >that is entrenched, widely recognized to be a good solution, and FREE? > >-- > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? > >Wes Peters >+1.801.915.2061 >Softweyr LLC >wes@softweyr.com They aren't making money by giving away server software either. On the other side, I'd use NCSA Mosaic over IE4 any day. I use Netscape on the FreeBSD box, and on the Solaris box. Microsoft's browser share is wrapped up in their monopoly (domainance anyway) in America Online. I wonder if the DOJ is going to nail that one to the wall next. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 12:13:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02739 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:13:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02733 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA18346; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA14270; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:46:45 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA29738; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:46:44 -0700 Message-ID: <363F5DA4.5A56B326@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:46:44 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Baxter CC: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX References: <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19981103141736.00b57180@genesis.ispace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter wrote: > > Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) > HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that Because that's where they can make money? Microsoft is looking to invade the CORPORATE desktop, and this includes people with Sun and HP workstations on their desk, and people with Sun and HP servers in the datacenter and an X terminal on their desk. > Netscapes Servers (I invite you to find me a version of Enterprise Server, > Directory Server 3.5+, Messaging Server 3.5+, that'll work on FreeBSD) are > only for Solaris, sometimes DEC Unix, and HP/UX.. I've seen some cases of > Netscape only releasing something for DEC UNIX and/or Solaris, and everyone > else is stuck a version back. Usually, it's Solaris, then HP/UX, then DEC, IRIX, and AIX in any order, because that's where the installed base is, and where the sales are going. > Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm > getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program > anyway, why not support Free Unixes? Because Netscape can't make money there? Obviously, they believe they can make more money for their efforts on Solaris, HP/UX, and other "big iron" than on "itty bitty boxes." Another reason is probably the predominance of Apache and Apache-based solutions at the low end; they have very little incentive to compete in that arena. Would you want to compete with something that is entrenched, widely recognized to be a good solution, and FREE? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 12:42:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06992 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:42:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bbcc.ctc.edu (bbcc.ctc.edu [134.39.180.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06984 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:42:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@bbcc.ctc.edu) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by bbcc.ctc.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA23523 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:42:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:42:03 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Coleman To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Corel Port to FreeNix. (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Oct 30th Corel made an announcement to support Wine to make Corel Suite available to Linux. I wrote an e-mail to the guy from Corel and this is his response. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:17:14 -0500 From: Gavriel State To: chris@bbcc.ctc.edu Cc: kellyf@COREL.CA Subject: Re: Corel Port to FreeNix. >>> Chris Coleman 11/02 9:52 PM >>> >Gavriel, > > Using wine seems like a wonderful Idea. This will allow FreeBSD to >run Corel Suite also. Do you have any active plans to market this to the >FreeBSD community? > >We are currently putting together a "Logo" that identifies vendors who >have FreeBSD Compatible binaries. Would you be interested in posting >these on your web sites? We would also list your site in our "FreeBSD >Commercial Products" Web pages. > >When your product it available, I can announce in my FreeBSD Newsletter >and write up an article for the Daemon News (BSD online Magazine.) > >Keep me posted on your progress, we use Corel Suite 8 at the college I >work at, and it would be great to have it for BSD. > >BSD really needs a good Word Processing Suite. We're aware of Winelib's portability to other OSes and CPU platforms - it was in fact one of the reasons we chose to support it. That said, my understanding is that there are still some compatability issues for Wine that have yet to be resolved for non-Linux OSes (specifically threading support). In addition to this, there are also quality assurance considerations; when we ship something, we want to ensure that what goes out the door is a high quality product. To do this we have to make a significant investment in QA resources, which has to be duplicated across every OS and CPU platform our products run on. Because of this, we're not ready to make a firm commitment to supporting these other platforms yet. It is certainly something we will be looking at very carefully in the future. Thanks, -Gav -- Gavriel State Project Leader - Linux Applications Software Corel Corp. gavriels@corel.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 12:46:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07561 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:46:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thyme.cisco.com (thyme.cisco.com [171.69.43.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07556 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shibumi@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thyme.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id MAA17117 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:46:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811032046.MAA17117@thyme.cisco.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Nov 1998 14:12:31 EST." <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> Reply-to: shibumi@cisco.com X-Disclaimer: Unless otherwise noted below, this is not a policy statement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 12:46:27 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG IE for UNIX is clearly targeted at the corporate, not the home user base. Its to "check off the box" on corporate requirements. Get IE in the door and NT will then push out UNIX, right? > HP/UX and Solaris.. How many people are running that at home? I run Solaris > here, but I'm not running HP/UX and never intend to.. Linux probably has a > larger single-user base than those two combined. | Kenton A. Hoover Network Team Manager | shibumi@cisco.com | | Engineering Computer Services | | | Cisco Systems, Inc. | +1.408.526.5249 | |===================== http://www.shockwave.com/~shibumi ====================| | Members of the Corps | | All hate the thought of war | | They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means | | -- "Send the Marines", Tom Lehrer | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 13:27:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13134 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:27:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13127 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id QAA14350; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:27:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981103162429.00a9a560@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 16:25:05 -0500 To: shibumi@cisco.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX In-Reply-To: <199811032046.MAA17117@thyme.cisco.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:46 PM 11/3/98 -0800, Kenton A. Hoover wrote: >IE for UNIX is clearly targeted at the corporate, not the home user base. Its >to "check off the box" on corporate requirements. Get IE in the door and NT >will then push out UNIX, right? I'd hope not.. NT gives me weird rashes in all sorts of places. I'm trying to find a way to get rid of the one running the Netscape servers.. >> HP/UX and Solaris.. How many people are running that at home? I run Solaris >> here, but I'm not running HP/UX and never intend to.. Linux probably has a >> larger single-user base than those two combined. > > >| Kenton A. Hoover Network Team Manager | shibumi@cisco.com | >| Engineering Computer Services | | >| Cisco Systems, Inc. | +1.408.526.5249 | >|===================== http://www.shockwave.com/~shibumi ====================| >| Members of the Corps | >| All hate the thought of war | >| They'd rather kill them off by peaceful means | >| -- "Send the Marines", Tom Lehrer | > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 13:56:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17827 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17820 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:56:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA06319; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:55:33 -0500 (EST) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199811032155.QAA06319@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:55:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <363F5DA4.5A56B326@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Nov 3, 98 12:46:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Drew Baxter wrote: > > > > Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) > > HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that > > Because that's where they can make money? Microsoft is looking to invade > the CORPORATE desktop, and this includes people with Sun and HP workstations > on their desk, and people with Sun and HP servers in the datacenter and an > X terminal on their desk. Actually, so they can get a corporate deal for IE as the official corporate browser of the XYZ corporation and bundle it with an NT and 95 rollout and site license. (And maybe an Exchange or Back Office server deal...) > > > Netscapes Servers (I invite you to find me a version of Enterprise Server, > > Directory Server 3.5+, Messaging Server 3.5+, that'll work on FreeBSD) are > > only for Solaris, sometimes DEC Unix, and HP/UX.. I've seen some cases of > > Netscape only releasing something for DEC UNIX and/or Solaris, and everyone > > else is stuck a version back. > > Usually, it's Solaris, then HP/UX, then DEC, IRIX, and AIX in any order, > because that's where the installed base is, and where the sales are going. > Yup, Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, DEC Unix and IRIX in that order. I still see SunOS up there with DEC Unix and IRIX in a lot of places. Solaris, HP/UX, AIX seem to be the big three in the commercial sector with DEC and SGI following behind. At Lucent we've got a lot of Solaris and SunOS, some HP/UX. Bell Labs Research was using IRIX. (Interestingly, there's actually some FreeBSD used up there because they're looking for NON-GPL'd stuff to play with). 8-) At IBM there was a fair Linux following in addition to AIX (no FreeBSD because they're still heavily Token Ring in the field and office environments). I ran Linux on a Compaq 486 consumer Presario box 8-) inside IBM. I was hoping to see FreeBSD Token Ring support, but the job didn't last that long. (management shuffle) > Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 > Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 14:02:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19171 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:02:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from netcom14.netcom.com (netcom14.netcom.com [192.100.81.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19155; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:02:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@netcom.com) Received: (from hasty@localhost) by netcom14.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id OAA13297; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:01:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:01:40 -0800 (PST) From: Amancio Hasty Jr Message-Id: <199811032201.OAA13297@netcom14.netcom.com> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org Subject: Re: Ariel Faigon: The Holloween Document (fwd) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The e-mail made it to today's San Jose Mercury NewsPaper in the business section. The news article claims that the e-mail was confirmed by Microsoft to be authenticate --- not sure who to believe Microsoft or the Linux camp 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 14:04:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19472 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:04:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19467 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:04:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA06724; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199811032203.RAA06724@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Software Update practices (was Internet Explorer and Unix To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:03:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981103162429.00a9a560@genesis.ispace.com> from "Drew Baxter" at Nov 3, 98 04:25:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > At 12:46 PM 11/3/98 -0800, Kenton A. Hoover wrote: > >IE for UNIX is clearly targeted at the corporate, not the home user base. > Its > >to "check off the box" on corporate requirements. Get IE in the door and NT > >will then push out UNIX, right? > > I'd hope not.. NT gives me weird rashes in all sorts of places. I'm trying > to find a way to get rid of the one running the Netscape servers.. > Want some fun... try booting the Netscape servers with year 9000. $5.00 says the web server blows chunks. It did at work, here, on a Compaq who's laptop battery ran down enough to let the date randomize. The earlier non-Y2k complient one core'd. This one just doesn't allow non-server control connections. Resetting the date and rebooting fix the problems. Don't know if it's NT4 fixpack 3 or the Netscape stuff, though. Who knows if it's year9k compliant. I wish all software was as well tested as FreeBSD. Unfortunately, the fix it in next release/slipstream patch set mentality has set in. DEC's VAX/VMS (who had a pretty common patch set back in the early to mid '80's) never put new functionality in a bug fix set. Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't agree with that and slips goodies in with every new Win95 cd. (DLL differences, Fat32, Fat32+, USB support) At least DEC would put a dot release upgrade in for new device support. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 14:04:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19539 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:04:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19533 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:04:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA13833; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:01:47 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 16:01:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Terry Lambert cc: Drew Baxter , grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX In-Reply-To: <199811031907.MAA02861@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded > > the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the > > whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of > > Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. > I disagree. If we want third-party software companies to create applications for our platform, we cannot be totally anti-microsoft. Even if the company who is creating the software is against MS. I note that Microsoft's tactics are not the nicest in the world, but we have nothing to fear of them - free software cannot be bought and shut down. Porting MSIE to Solaris and HP-UX was actually a good move for the UNIX industry. It shows the most popular OS vendor, making software for an operating system it does not produce. This has slapped suit's in the face with ``Hey, whats Solaris?'' questions that will get them looking at other systems. When people start asking questions, things happen. I think I am going to go back to playing with IE on my FreeBSD workstation right now (running it off the SPARC20 that is across the office, to my display.) -- Phillip Salzman "I didn't break it, I swear!..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 14:14:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21643 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21622 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:14:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id RAA14399; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:14:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981103171004.00a92100@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:12:40 -0500 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Software Update practices (was Internet Explorer and Unix Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811032203.RAA06724@shell.monmouth.com> References: <4.1.19981103162429.00a9a560@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:03 PM 11/3/98 -0500, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >> >> At 12:46 PM 11/3/98 -0800, Kenton A. Hoover wrote: >> >IE for UNIX is clearly targeted at the corporate, not the home user base. >> Its >> >to "check off the box" on corporate requirements. Get IE in the door and >NT >> >will then push out UNIX, right? >> >> I'd hope not.. NT gives me weird rashes in all sorts of places. I'm trying >> to find a way to get rid of the one running the Netscape servers.. >> > >Want some fun... try booting the Netscape servers with year 9000. > >$5.00 says the web server blows chunks. It did at work, here, on a >Compaq who's laptop battery ran down enough to let the date randomize. > >The earlier non-Y2k complient one core'd. This one just doesn't allow >non-server control connections. Resetting the date and rebooting >fix the problems. > >Don't know if it's NT4 fixpack 3 or the Netscape stuff, though. > >Who knows if it's year9k compliant. > >I wish all software was as well tested as FreeBSD. Unfortunately, >the fix it in next release/slipstream patch set mentality has >set in. DEC's VAX/VMS (who had a pretty common patch set back in the >early to mid '80's) never put new functionality in a bug fix set. > >Unfortunately, Microsoft doesn't agree with that and slips goodies in >with every new Win95 cd. (DLL differences, Fat32, Fat32+, USB support) > >At least DEC would put a dot release upgrade in for new device support. > >Bill >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | >| Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | >| a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | >+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ But see, who's going to say to Microsoft, "Don't do that!". There's no book setting a practice for introductions of new standards. The people who hold the cards are the people that introduce 3 different versions of the OEM release of their product, yet their SHELF product becomes 'out of date'. Where do we, the people that upgraded first thing to Windows 95 from Win3.1 go for updates and Fat32? The answer? "Go buy a new Dell, or a Micron, or a Sony.. or someone that OEM's a newer version". --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 14:15:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21701 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21693 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:15:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id RAA14395; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:11:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981103170405.00a94280@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:09:01 -0500 To: Phillip Salzman , Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199811031907.MAA02861@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:01 PM 11/3/98 +0000, Phillip Salzman wrote: > > >On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> > I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded >> > the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the >> > whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of >> > Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. >> > > > I disagree. If we want third-party software companies to create >applications for our platform, we cannot be totally anti-microsoft. Even >if the company who is creating the software is against MS. I note that >Microsoft's tactics are not the nicest in the world, but we have nothing >to fear of them - free software cannot be bought and shut down. > > Porting MSIE to Solaris and HP-UX was actually a good move for the >UNIX industry. It shows the most popular OS vendor, making software for >an operating system it does not produce. This has slapped suit's in the >face with ``Hey, whats Solaris?'' questions that will get them looking >at other systems. When people start asking questions, things happen. > > I think I am going to go back to playing with IE on my FreeBSD >workstation right now (running it off the SPARC20 that is across the >office, to my display.) > >-- >Phillip Salzman >"I didn't break it, I swear!..." > I don't agree with that. Sure it's PR for Microsoft regarding favoring their own OS, but Netscape already had a pretty decent handle on the market before they came in. Microsoft buys into markets where they do not belong. See Microsoft Network? That's a pretty clear view of that. America Online already has the market in "Internet Online" Services (I find that title rather corny). Microsoft also bought into Web Browsers. By basing their product off of Mosaic, they enter yet another market where there is already a more capable company (Netscape) producing a product that is their sole reason for existance. Netscape makes products for the web and having to do with the net and the web. I would buy a toaster from Proctor-Silex, not from the Seiko Watch Company. People and corporations need to learn to have a DISTINCT existance in a market, and leave the one-level marketplaces alone, ESPECIALLY Netscape. It's one thing to make a product to compete with a company that isn't fulfilling their end of the bargain, it's another to try to eradicate them with the ability of hiring a ton of programmers and submerge them with their 86%(?) Home OS Power.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 14:33:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24407 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:33:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24402 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:33:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02327; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:33:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd002209; Tue Nov 3 15:33:28 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22645; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:31:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811032231.PAA22645@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:31:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981103141736.00b57180@genesis.ispace.com> from "Drew Baxter" at Nov 3, 98 02:20:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I'm still trying to fathom why Netscape servers (and Microsoft IE, if we're > >> going to jaunt down that road) are not ported to FreeBSD, Linux, etc. > > > >I think you mean IIS... > > > >> After all, the operating system (to build/test ports) is obtainable at a > >> convenient cost of 0$, I'd imagine the BSDI version (which there are also > >> slim ports of as well) would port rather well to FreeBSD.. > > > >Why port? The BSDI versions of the servers already run on FreeBSD. > > Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) > HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that > Netscapes Servers (I invite you to find me a version of Enterprise Server, > Directory Server 3.5+, Messaging Server 3.5+, that'll work on FreeBSD) are > only for Solaris, sometimes DEC Unix, and HP/UX.. I've seen some cases of > Netscape only releasing something for DEC UNIX and/or Solaris, and everyone > else is stuck a version back. I'll have a hard time finding Directory Server 3.5+, for sure, since the current release is 3.1. I guess this is a trick question? Let's see: Enterprise Server 3.5.1 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b Directory Server 3.0 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b Messaging Server 3.5 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b Why doesn't this run under FreeBSD Alpha? Well, because FreeBSD Alpha does not conform to the published ABI's for the DEC Alpha platform. For the BSDI x86 stuff... you have to buy it through BSDI, since BSDI helped port the code. So you're looking in the wrong location. > Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm > getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program > anyway, why not support Free Unixes? Because you're not a potential revenue source, and those products are offered as a hook to people who are expected to become revenue sources at a later date. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 14:40:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25449 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:40:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25441 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id RAA14428; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:39:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981103173605.00a8d1b0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 17:37:19 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811032231.PAA22645@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19981103141736.00b57180@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:31 PM 11/3/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> >> I'm still trying to fathom why Netscape servers (and Microsoft IE, if >we're >> >> going to jaunt down that road) are not ported to FreeBSD, Linux, etc. >> > >> >I think you mean IIS... >> > >> >> After all, the operating system (to build/test ports) is obtainable at a >> >> convenient cost of 0$, I'd imagine the BSDI version (which there are also >> >> slim ports of as well) would port rather well to FreeBSD.. >> > >> >Why port? The BSDI versions of the servers already run on FreeBSD. >> >> Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) >> HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that >> Netscapes Servers (I invite you to find me a version of Enterprise Server, >> Directory Server 3.5+, Messaging Server 3.5+, that'll work on FreeBSD) are >> only for Solaris, sometimes DEC Unix, and HP/UX.. I've seen some cases of >> Netscape only releasing something for DEC UNIX and/or Solaris, and everyone >> else is stuck a version back. > >I'll have a hard time finding Directory Server 3.5+, for sure, since >the current release is 3.1. I guess this is a trick question? > > >Let's see: > >Enterprise Server 3.5.1 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b > >Directory Server 3.0 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b > >Messaging Server 3.5 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b > >Why doesn't this run under FreeBSD Alpha? > >Well, because FreeBSD Alpha does not conform to the published ABI's >for the DEC Alpha platform. > > >For the BSDI x86 stuff... you have to buy it through BSDI, since >BSDI helped port the code. So you're looking in the wrong location. > > >> Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm >> getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program >> anyway, why not support Free Unixes? > >Because you're not a potential revenue source, and those products >are offered as a hook to people who are expected to become revenue >sources at a later date. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Messaging 3.56 is under Solaris last I knew. I think most of those servers mentioned are. I have a boxed set of Solaris 2.6 here for Sparc.. Maybe I'll just have to go over to MiniComputer Exchange and get one.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 15:42:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05097 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:42:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05090 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:42:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (IDENT:WHAT_THE_HELL_YOU_LOOKING_AT_@d60-147.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.147]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14580; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:42:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA22048; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:42:20 GMT (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19981103154219.E17695@nuxi.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 15:42:19 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Terry Lambert , Drew Baxter Cc: grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> <199811031917.MAA03061@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199811031917.MAA03061@usr05.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 07:17:33PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > HP/UX and Solaris.. How many people are running that at home? I run Solaris > > here, but I'm not running HP/UX and never intend to.. Linux probably has a > > larger single-user base than those two combined. > > That's irrelevent. The porting effort for one UNIX vs. another is > miniscule compared to what it must have taken to get it onto UNIX > from Windows in the first place. It may also be that what ever GUI/interface libs they used to pull this off are only available for Solaris and HP-UX. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 17:57:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25396 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:57:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gregory.dyn.ml.org (cgowave-22-127.cgocable.net [24.226.22.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25389 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:57:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@gregory.dyn.ml.org) From: dave@gregory.dyn.ml.org Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by gregory.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24411 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:57:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:57:40 -0500 (EST) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >> I'm still trying to fathom why Netscape servers (and Microsoft IE, if we're > > >> going to jaunt down that road) are not ported to FreeBSD, Linux, etc. > > > > > >I think you mean IIS... > > > > > >> After all, the operating system (to build/test ports) is obtainable at a > > >> convenient cost of 0$, I'd imagine the BSDI version (which there are also > > >> slim ports of as well) would port rather well to FreeBSD.. > > > > > >Why port? The BSDI versions of the servers already run on FreeBSD. > > > > Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) > > HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that > > Netscapes Servers (I invite you to find me a version of Enterprise Server, > > Directory Server 3.5+, Messaging Server 3.5+, that'll work on FreeBSD) are > > only for Solaris, sometimes DEC Unix, and HP/UX.. I've seen some cases of > > Netscape only releasing something for DEC UNIX and/or Solaris, and everyone > > else is stuck a version back. > > I'll have a hard time finding Directory Server 3.5+, for sure, since > the current release is 3.1. I guess this is a trick question? > > > Let's see: > > Enterprise Server 3.5.1 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b > > Directory Server 3.0 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b > > Messaging Server 3.5 Digital Alpha Digital Unix 4.0b > > Why doesn't this run under FreeBSD Alpha? > > Well, because FreeBSD Alpha does not conform to the published ABI's > for the DEC Alpha platform. > > > For the BSDI x86 stuff... you have to buy it through BSDI, since > BSDI helped port the code. So you're looking in the wrong location. > > > > Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm > > getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program > > anyway, why not support Free Unixes? > > Because you're not a potential revenue source, and those products > are offered as a hook to people who are expected to become revenue > sources at a later date. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- My company is a source of substantial revenue for Netscape. Netscape is foolish to not port these servers to Linux and FreeBSD. Our company was NT-free (we're Mac & Sun) until our higher-ups decided to purchase an NT box specifically to run Netscape servers (another Sparc was out of the question). This server would have been Linux or BSD otherwise. Netscape really needs to support Freenix if they want to slow Microsoft's momentum. Now that we have an NT server more people will be tempted to run microsoft apps, which will lead to more NT servers.... > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 21:26:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20478 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-103.airnet.net [207.242.81.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20421 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07955; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:23:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <363FE4CA.E224EDE2@airnet.net> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:23:22 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Baxter CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX References: <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981101144057.00a425e0@genesis.ispace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter wrote: > I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded > the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the > whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of > Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. > Let's just not make IE the default browser :-). But really, if any browser should be default, why not lynx? :-)). -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 21:32:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21136 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:32:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21131 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:32:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4040.ime.net [209.90.195.50]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id AAA14836; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:32:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981104002956.00aaf100@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 00:30:03 -0500 To: Kris Kirby From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <363FE4CA.E224EDE2@airnet.net> References: <19981031113411.W5846@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981101144057.00a425e0@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:23 PM 11/3/98 -0600, Kris Kirby wrote: >Drew Baxter wrote: >> I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded >> the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the >> whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of >> Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. >> >Let's just not make IE the default browser :-). But really, if any >browser should be default, why not lynx? :-)). >-- >Kris Kirby >UAH Mail UAH CS >Home WWW >------------------------------------------- Why not Chimera? :P --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 3 21:47:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23383 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:47:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23378 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 21:47:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA08312; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:49:34 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19981103234933.A19042@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:49:33 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <709.910110116@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <709.910110116@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 08:21:56AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 08:21:56AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > First off, just to cover the Halloween memo in brief, yes it appears > to be genuinely from Microsoft and yes, it appears to be genuinely > full of statements culled from various Linux evangelists who feel no > pangs at making blatantly false pronouncements like "Linux is the only > OS experiencing growth" or "Linux is the only contender for the x86 > platform." These types of statements are pure hooey, of course, and > FreeBSD is currently doing better than it has at any previous point in > its history. Something that really concerns me is the Linux advocates myth, perpetuated by this memo, that FreeBSD is a closed development project. We all know this is untrue, and that in fact, we have a more open model than the Linux kernel, since we can (and frequently do ;) have conflicts about the correctness of checkins. This stems from the mantle of cathedral style development forced upon us by ESR and is something that needs active fighting IMHO. An observation: How come the cathedral has no god, but the bazaar seems to have a shrine at every corner? Bow to the penguin, -Jeremy -- | "In this world of temptation, I will stand for what is right. --+-- With a heart of salvation, I will hold up the light. | If I live or if I die, if I laugh or if I cry, | in this world of temptation, I will stand." -Pam Thum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 01:36:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24248 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:36:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (smtp.newsguy.com [207.211.168.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24243 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:36:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com ([133.8.10.23]) by newsguy.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA10249; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:36:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <364020B1.A21D6174@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 18:38:57 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Drew Baxter CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX References: <199811031907.MAA02861@usr05.primenet.com> <4.1.19981103170405.00a94280@genesis.ispace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter wrote: > > Microsoft also bought into Web Browsers. By basing their product off of > Mosaic, they enter yet another market where there is already a more capable > company (Netscape) producing a product that is their sole reason for > existance. Netscape makes products for the web and having to do with the > net and the web. > > I would buy a toaster from Proctor-Silex, not from the Seiko Watch Company. > People and corporations need to learn to have a DISTINCT existance in a > market, and leave the one-level marketplaces alone, ESPECIALLY Netscape. > It's one thing to make a product to compete with a company that isn't > fulfilling their end of the bargain, it's another to try to eradicate them > with the ability of hiring a ton of programmers and submerge them with > their 86%(?) Home OS Power.. Now, come on! Microsoft had very good reasons to compete in the browser market! If Internet-based client-server applications became too important, the operating system you were running wouldn't matter! That meant Microsoft needed things like FrontPage (sp?) and that horrible alternative to Java they have that I have even forgotten it's name (no, don't remind me!). And, if they wanted that, they needed a server *and* a client. A client they could control, of course. Moreover, at the time MS decided to get into this market, it was widely claimed by the press that "browser" software would *replace the desktop UI*. That *is* a very serious treat to Microsoft. If the public can't see it, it doesn't matter. That's why Windows 95 is an "operating system", instead of a GUI over an operating system. You may hate them, and they may have been _illegally_ unfair, but it was *not* something out of the blue. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com You can't modify a constant, float upstream, win an argument with the IRS, or satisfy this compiler To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 01:51:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26163 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26147 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06682; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:29:19 GMT Message-ID: <36401E98.E20EBDC4@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:30:00 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://ints.ml.org/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <199811031724.MAA28109@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > Agreed... Actually, the memo was interesting. I'm going to > re-edit it to drop the ESR comments and reread it. > I want to see the unedited MS comments to judge on its own merits. You won't have to do much to the last half :) The comments about the gimp were most amusing (on a level with paintbrush? ROFL). I was also interested to note the author didn't seem at all worried about the desktop/home market. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 05:54:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA25879 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 05:54:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA25873 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 05:54:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA25406; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:53:37 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19981104145337.A25068@cons.org> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:53:37 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Terry Lambert , Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <199811031724.MAA28109@shell.monmouth.com> <199811031835.LAA01373@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199811031835.LAA01373@usr05.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 06:35:20PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'd like to second the opinion that strong emulation of other OSes is a key point for FreeBSD and that the current level is already much better than we expected it could even become, so why stop here? :) In <199811031835.LAA01373@usr05.primenet.com>, Terry Lambert wrote: > I think FreeBSD should move toward IABI and Solaris binary > compatability in the default OS, changing system calls and > manifest constant values, as necessary, to achieve this. > > That will get you your applications the fastest. Why is that better than a syscall emulator? The obvious advantage is that you can use their shared and static libraries in FreeBSD binaries. But to do so, you would also have to change all of libc in the same way, wouldn't you? If you invented a clever scheme to link a shared - say - Solaris Library against a Solaris libc until everything but syscalls have been pulled into and then link the combination thereof against your FreeBSD object files and libc, you would have a lot of double code, with possible bookkeeping problems in things like malloc/free, so the automatic way can't possibly work. What about wrapper calls around the FreeBSD libc? solaris_objects --> wrapper -+ | freebsd_objects -------------+--> FreeBSD libc You would link all Solaris objects together, put in the wrapper that resolves all incompatible calls on the Solaris objct's side and maps the calls to adapapted calls to functions with possibly the same name on the other side (the FreeBSD side that is used to produce an executable). So, for further linking you just pull in just one big block (Solaris objects and wrapper) and you can be sure that this blocks expects the FreeBSD interface for every symbol it wants resolved. Of course, that requires the same research we do for system calls to be done for all libraries. Given that tracing userlevel library calls is a lot more difficult (since you can't trace them as easily as system calls) and therefore is a lot easier to do for Linux. This will probably fail for thread programs that use native Solaris thread interfaces, since we presumely don't copy their way of sheduling userlevel threads on kernel threads, but programs that just use the Posix calls are save since we resolve the Posix thread calls in userlevel. The question here is how many binary-only software providers care to restruct themself to standard interfaces :-( You can add a /dev compatiblity feature to the TODO. /compat/linux/dev/audio may want to talk a different interface. I won't even start talking about STREAMS or anything networking-related that uses /dev entries. Linux would be a lot easier here, since Software vendors have to use some sane way to construct packets. BTW, where can I see/buy a copy of the SystemV/Intel binary standards? Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 06:09:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28029 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:09:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA28003 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15228; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:09:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981104060901.A15161@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:09:01 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Wes Peters , Drew Baxter Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19981103141736.00b57180@genesis.ispace.com> <363F5DA4.5A56B326@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <363F5DA4.5A56B326@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 12:46:44PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 12:46:44PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Drew Baxter wrote: > > > > Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) > > HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that > > Because that's where they can make money? Microsoft is looking to invade > the CORPORATE desktop, and this includes people with Sun and HP workstations > on their desk, and people with Sun and HP servers in the datacenter and an > X terminal on their desk. > My current contract is at a very big HP/UX shop. HP/UX ships with Netscape on the OS CD. We do have IE installed on a few machines but almost no one uses it. In most corporate environments IT decides what tools, as in editors, browsers, etc, will be on the servers unless some bigwig makes a real stink. Most users go along with what ever IT decides to use. Baaaaa ! I don't think microsoft will make much headway with IE on the "Big" Unixes in corporate environments simply because IE does not ship on the OS CD. Most companies have a whole process to select the software to installed and used on their servers. One has to give them a very compelling reason to use a particular piece of software. Installing and using IE just because it is from microsoft is just not a good enough reason anymore. Lots of big companies are using win95/98 just because, and only because, of office. Most companies know how bad microsoft software is, there is just not a viable alternative to Office out there. [ DELETED ] > > Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm > > getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program > > anyway, why not support Free Unixes? > > Because Netscape can't make money there? Obviously, they believe they can > make more money for their efforts on Solaris, HP/UX, and other "big iron" > than on "itty bitty boxes." Another reason is probably the predominance > of Apache and Apache-based solutions at the low end; they have very little > incentive to compete in that arena. Would you want to compete with something > that is entrenched, widely recognized to be a good solution, and FREE? At this big HP/UX shop we are using Apache for our default web server. I asked my supervisor why we were using Apache and not Netscape server. The answer was "Everybody is using Apache". Baaaaaa! Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 06:33:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02497 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:33:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02492 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:33:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05459; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jeremy Lea cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:49:33 +0200." <19981103234933.A19042@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 06:31:42 -0800 Message-ID: <5456.910189902@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Something that really concerns me is the Linux advocates myth, > perpetuated by this memo, that FreeBSD is a closed development project. For as long as it's up, please point anyone suffering from this myth at: http://www.performance-computing.com/features/9810of1.shtml Not blowing my own horn here, but I did cover this exact topic in my article. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 08:29:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19145 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:29:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19128 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:28:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10378; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:28:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd010254; Wed Nov 4 09:28:29 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21574; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:28:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811041628.JAA21574@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (Phillip Salzman) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:28:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Phillip Salzman" at Nov 3, 98 04:01:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > I'd rather live on the assumption that Internet Explorer has not invaded > > > the UNIX world. even if they are on Solaris. That way we can leave the > > > whole Microsoft channel out of the mix altogether and live in a life of > > > Happy Little Trees and the wonderful world of Not-Microsoft. If you are going to quote people, have the courtesy to observe nesting depth on quotations. The above was not written by me, it was written by Drew Baxter. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 08:33:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19716 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:33:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19711 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:33:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10829; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:33:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd010803; Wed Nov 4 09:33:39 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA21936; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:33:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811041633.JAA21936@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:33:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net, tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981103170405.00a94280@genesis.ispace.com> from "Drew Baxter" at Nov 3, 98 05:09:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Microsoft buys into markets where they do not belong. I think, perhaps, you need to decide if you are first and foremost a pro-FreeBSD advocate, or an anti-Microsoft advocate. Is it more important to you that FreeBSD win, or that Microsoft lose? This list is generally for discussions by and for people for whom it is more important that FreeBSD win, and trying to fight on two fronts is a good way to lose. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 08:44:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20839 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:44:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20827 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:44:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21590; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:44:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd021571; Wed Nov 4 09:44:26 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA22477; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:44:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811041644.JAA22477@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... To: reg@shale.csir.co.za (Jeremy Lea) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:44:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981103234933.A19042@shale.csir.co.za> from "Jeremy Lea" at Nov 3, 98 11:49:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Bow to the penguin, Do be do be doooo... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 09:25:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28017 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:25:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.84.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28005 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.84.217]) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.9.1a+3.1W/8.9.1/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id NAA06620; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:18:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:18:08 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: "David O'Brien" cc: Terry Lambert , Drew Baxter , grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX In-Reply-To: <19981103154219.E17695@nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > It may also be that what ever GUI/interface libs they used to pull this > off are only available for Solaris and HP-UX. > I don't believe so, but i'll send an email off to the guys who did the port. I think it's more that a grand total of 2 people are doing the ports. MS also just released IE5 for Solaris Beta. Whoa: "Special Note: Internet Explorer for Solaris now integrates the Sun Microsytems Java Virtual Machine (JVM) to support Java applets. The Sun JVM is natively optimized for Solaris, includes a Just-In-Time (JIT) Compiler and provides support for JDK 1.1.6. It is available for Solaris 2.5.1 and 2.6." Daniel Berlin Microsoft Research To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 10:29:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06764 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:29:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06757 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA15772; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:28:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981104132327.00a802f0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:26:45 -0500 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <364020B1.A21D6174@newsguy.com> References: <199811031907.MAA02861@usr05.primenet.com> <4.1.19981103170405.00a94280@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:38 PM 11/4/98 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Drew Baxter wrote: >> >> Microsoft also bought into Web Browsers. By basing their product off of >> Mosaic, they enter yet another market where there is already a more capable >> company (Netscape) producing a product that is their sole reason for >> existance. Netscape makes products for the web and having to do with the >> net and the web. >> >> I would buy a toaster from Proctor-Silex, not from the Seiko Watch Company. >> People and corporations need to learn to have a DISTINCT existance in a >> market, and leave the one-level marketplaces alone, ESPECIALLY Netscape. >> It's one thing to make a product to compete with a company that isn't >> fulfilling their end of the bargain, it's another to try to eradicate them >> with the ability of hiring a ton of programmers and submerge them with >> their 86%(?) Home OS Power.. > >Now, come on! Microsoft had very good reasons to compete in the >browser market! If Internet-based client-server applications became >too important, the operating system you were running wouldn't matter! >That meant Microsoft needed things like FrontPage (sp?) and that >horrible alternative to Java they have that I have even forgotten it's >name (no, don't remind me!). And, if they wanted that, they needed a >server *and* a client. A client they could control, of course. > >Moreover, at the time MS decided to get into this market, it was >widely claimed by the press that "browser" software would *replace the >desktop UI*. That *is* a very serious treat to Microsoft. If the >public can't see it, it doesn't matter. That's why Windows 95 is an >"operating system", instead of a GUI over an operating system. > >You may hate them, and they may have been _illegally_ unfair, but it >was *not* something out of the blue. > >-- >Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) >dcs@newsguy.com > How do you call this competitive? They don't give open paperwork for their "ActiveX" standard, otherwise I'd imagine someone (Maybe even Netscape) would portal it into Netscape products.. The other thing is, I don't see an option to install Netscape anywhere on a Win95 or a Win98 CD. That's using their market share in the Home (and business) PC market to promote their own product. The consumer should have an option over what they want to install during bootup. Win98's IE4 is integrated into the shell (without any prayer of removing it).. Microsoft tells customers "Oh no chance that Win95 will run under Caldera/Digital Research DR. DOS" Like hell, they just don't want to market it without their DOS layer under it so people can use DR. DOS. As it goes, Caldera proved them wrong, but still, let's be real here. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 10:30:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07066 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:30:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07058 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:30:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA15780; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:30:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981104132722.00986ca0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:28:12 -0500 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Wes Peters From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981104060901.A15161@mooseriver.com> References: <363F5DA4.5A56B326@softweyr.com> <4.1.19981103140957.00b4d100@genesis.ispace.com> <4.1.19981103141736.00b57180@genesis.ispace.com> <363F5DA4.5A56B326@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:09 AM 11/4/98 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: >On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 12:46:44PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> Drew Baxter wrote: >> > >> > Alright, first off, no I meant IE. IE is available for (as you pointed out) >> > HP/UX and Solaris. My question is *why* HP/UX and Solaris? Why is it that >> >> Because that's where they can make money? Microsoft is looking to invade >> the CORPORATE desktop, and this includes people with Sun and HP workstations >> on their desk, and people with Sun and HP servers in the datacenter and an >> X terminal on their desk. >> > >My current contract is at a very big HP/UX shop. HP/UX ships with Netscape >on the OS CD. We do have IE installed on a few machines but almost no one >uses it. In most corporate environments IT decides what tools, as in >editors, browsers, etc, will be on the servers unless some bigwig makes a >real stink. Most users go along with what ever IT decides to use. Baaaaa ! > >I don't think microsoft will make much headway with IE on the "Big" Unixes >in corporate environments simply because IE does not ship on the OS CD. Most >companies have a whole process to select the software to installed and used >on their servers. One has to give them a very compelling reason to use a >particular piece of software. Installing and using IE just because it is >from microsoft is just not a good enough reason anymore. Lots of big >companies are using win95/98 just because, and only because, of >office. Most companies know how bad microsoft software is, there is just >not a viable alternative to Office out there. > >[ DELETED ] > >> > Windows NT is easy to obtain at 300 or so bucks (workstation). But if I'm >> > getting Netscape Servers under Netscape Free Server Software program >> > anyway, why not support Free Unixes? >> >> Because Netscape can't make money there? Obviously, they believe they can >> make more money for their efforts on Solaris, HP/UX, and other "big iron" >> than on "itty bitty boxes." Another reason is probably the predominance >> of Apache and Apache-based solutions at the low end; they have very little >> incentive to compete in that arena. Would you want to compete with something >> that is entrenched, widely recognized to be a good solution, and FREE? > >At this big HP/UX shop we are using Apache for our default web server. I >asked my supervisor why we were using Apache and not Netscape server. The >answer was "Everybody is using Apache". Baaaaaa! > > > >Josef > >-- >Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 >jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > I use Apache too on my FreeBSD box. However, the Messenger Express software doesn't work on anything other than FastTrack and Enterprise Server. Have I tried it on Apache? Nope.. Why? because I still have the damned NT box running Messaging Server and Directory LDAP Server anyway, might as well have one machine do all of THAT work. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 10:35:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07497 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:35:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07487 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:35:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA15784; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:34:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981104132838.00ae4180@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:32:19 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Internet Explorer and UNIX Cc: psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net, tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, wes@softweyr.com, scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk, licia@o-o.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811041633.JAA21936@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19981103170405.00a94280@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:33 PM 11/4/98 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Microsoft buys into markets where they do not belong. > >I think, perhaps, you need to decide if you are first and foremost >a pro-FreeBSD advocate, or an anti-Microsoft advocate. > >Is it more important to you that FreeBSD win, or that Microsoft >lose? --- Both are of equal importance to me really. Unfortunately my workplace is severely in-debt to Microsoft products because of the lack of support for them for FreeBSD.. I'd prefer to do all of my server-related stuff on one machine, and I certainly don't want it to be that POS NT server. --- > >This list is generally for discussions by and for people for whom >it is more important that FreeBSD win, and trying to fight on >two fronts is a good way to lose. --- Certainly it's important for FreeBSD to win. My original comment of not seeing ports of Netscapes Servers has been blown out of proportion (partially by me, indeed) into this anti-Microsoft browser war. I was happier with my remark "Phew, thank god IE isn't on Unix". That fits when we're talking about FreeBSD, does it not? So I guess what I have to do is email my Netscape Sales rep and say "Sooo when am I going to see this for FreeBSD?" .. In the meantime, I'm stuck with the 'dreaded NT box'. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 10:42:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08642 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:42:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08597 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:42:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11413 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:42:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:42:17 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linksys supports us? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I did not know this : http://www.linksys.com/support/solution/nos/freebsd.htm [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 10:51:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10321 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:51:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10312 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA23666 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19981104105133.E22394@nuxi.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:51:33 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: A nice thing to see. Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is from a non-FreeBSD email conversation I had with someone at Purdude. Nice to see we are even on secretaries' desks. :-) Who ever said you need to be computer savey to use FreeBSD. ----- Forwarded message I've been a longtime fan, but not much of a contributor. I'm a NeXTguy and haven't brought myself to use anything but OPENSTEP on my desk for years. Damn fine servers, though. (I know I should help GNUSTEP. I'm getting there.) ..snip.. Purdue's not a huge FreeBSD installation yet. Physics (my former job) is. They do everything from secretaries' stations to web service from FreeBSD boxes. I haven't turned this place around yet... ----- End forwarded message ----- -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 11:10:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14382 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14327 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:09:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14605; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:10:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Licia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linksys supports us? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Nov 1998 12:42:17 CST." Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:10:06 -0800 Message-ID: <14601.910206606@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I did not know this : > > http://www.linksys.com/support/solution/nos/freebsd.htm Bill Paul probably provided them directly with the HTML to use, just judging by the content, but it's still most impressive to start seeing this kind of vendor buy-in. Three cheers for Mr. Paul and his PNIC driver! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 11:17:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15536 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:17:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15527 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:17:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA17534 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:18:55 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:18:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Linux Review (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If you haven't read it yet, C|Net has done a full feature article on Linux. I emailed the author, this is his reply. Note: i have also replied to this. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:42:11 -0800 From: Cormac Foster To: Phillip Salzman Subject: RE: Linux Review Phillip, Hi. Thanks for writing in. We actually did mention FreeBSD back in our Alternative Operating System roundup (http://www.cnet.com/Content/Reviews/Compare/AltOS/), but while it's a great OS (I run it at home), CNET.COM's audience consists largely of mainstream desktop/notebook consumers, so I'm not sure if we'd be able to run a full-length feature. Not that I won't try to push it through... ;-) I'll also pass the thought on to our sister site, BUILDER.COM. BUILDER handles the admin/developer communities, so a FreeBSD piece might fit in really well for them. Thanks again, and I'll let you know if anything develops! = ), c > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Salzman [mailto:phill@corp.gulf.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 9:31 AM > To: cormacf@cnet.com > Subject: Linux Review > > > > I was wondering if you and/or your coworkers have any plans > to write an article on FreeBSD? This ``alternative'' OS is > very much like Linux, except it focuses on the server-side of > life a little more. Linux moves to the desktop to try to take > on Windows. > > With FreeBSD, you can also run most compiled Linux programs > extreamly fast. I use the Linux version of the RealVideo player, > for instance. > > FreeBSD also follows the BSD license, which enables software > developers to use it - and sell it for however much money they > like. It enables profit more than the GPL. > > If no one there wishes to write the article because of the lack of > knowledge with the OS, I will do it if you wish. > > > ____ _ _ _ _ > | _ \ | |__ (_)| || | @corp.gulf.net > | |_) || '_ \ | || || | Phillip Salzman, Systems Engineering > | __/ | | | || || || | Gulf Coast Internet Company > |_| |_| |_||_||_||_| http://www.gulf.net/ > * The Views of this person are those of his own, and not of > * Gulf Coast Internet Company or their clients. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 11:24:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17081 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:24:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17050 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:24:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (IDENT:WHAT_THE_HELL_YOU_LOOKING_AT_@d60-147.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.147]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA24343 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:24:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA20983 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:24:23 GMT (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19981104112423.A20974@nuxi.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:24:23 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (FWD) FWD: the day after make Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This article has some good points we too need to keep in mind on what it takes for an applications shop to port their product to FreeBSD. (warning long....) -- David X-URL: http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1998-10/lw-10-thesource2.html The day after make Some practical consequences to consider when developing the open source way Summary The benefits of open source software are becoming well understood in the high-tech industry: A few of the benefits include better bug testing, quicker development, and happy customers who can improve open source applications on their own. But what are the areas to watch? Why are many ISVs still reluctant to adopt the open source model? Using Linux as his reference point, Software Developer Ian Nandhra discusses some of the areas of concern for ISVs looking to write software for Linux the open source way, including which C library to support, which version of which distribution, and training and quality assurance issues. From the Source is LinuxWorld's Forum for industry insiders who have something to say about important issues. (2,400 words) By Ian Nandhra At the risk of understatement, open source represents a sea-change in the way that intellectual property is viewed and copyright is administered. For once the source code has been released, it is difficult, if not impossible, to reverse the situation. The open source model is extraordinarily successful at getting product developed and tested on a huge array of disparate systems in a host of different languages. Better yet, almost 100% of the development and testing effort is done without much money changing hands. It's a huge development resource, and one that has proved to be extremely beneficial to many organizations. (Open-source software is not necessarily the same as free software, see the [21]glossary below for definitions.) Open source also simplifies support and future maintenance and makes the practice of keeping software in escrow almost obsolete. Since source code is always available, companies can hire their own developers to implement any changes they like. In short, it the perfect situation for the developer, delivering unlimited access to a huge library of royalty-free source code. In competitive markets where one vendor wants to completely dominate, releasing source code to establish one's APIs as the de facto standard makes a lot of sense. This was Netscape's strategy in releasing the Mozilla source code. Furthermore, porting an existing Unix application to the open source Linux OS is generally a breeze. While Linux is still not formally Unix, most Unix applications will at least compile on it. And any defects in these ports are generally easy to identify and repair. But the open source world does present some significant challenges to developers. Take Linux, for example. With Linux, the trick is not deciding whether to port, but rather, deciding which Linux to port to, and how best to maintain that port. Which Linux? Most ISV ports to Linux will target a specific distribution (check out [22]www.linux.org for lists), often without knowing that there are major portability differences among Linux flavors. The most serious concern involves the C libraries -- of which there are two incompatible versions in circulation. This fact, coupled with some other inter-distribution incompatibilities quickly creates multiple source trees for your Linux application, as it tries to conform to the various distributions. Hey, if you love Unix, you should feel right at home here. Split source trees are prime ingredients for future problems. In any case, porting is not just a case of typing make, burning a CD, and throwing it at your customers. The majority of the work, often unseen by the developer, concerns testing, quality assurance (QA), support infrastructure, and training. The large customers (be honest, everyone wants lots and lots of large customers; we're talking about world domination, after all) will invest in internal support and lots of internal training. None of the participants welcome change. Change costs money. Eliminate the negative The most fundamental difference among the various Linux distributions concerns lib -- the C library. There are two flavors in use, libc5 and glibc2 (also known as libc6). So which lib do we port with? Simple. If we want compatibility with the latest (but not necessarily best) version of Linux, port with glibc2 (a.k.a. libc6). If you want compatibility with the overwhelming majority of existing Linux installations, go with libc5. Distributions installing glibc2 also install libc5, so you should have no problems. There are two basic reasons not to port to glibc2. * Maturity. Glibc2 is still being developed, and ISV reviews of its use have been mixed. Glibc2 is also closely linked to kernel releases and has not proved stable enough to be universally adopted. Most people seem content to wait until things mature. * Compatibility. Porting to glibc2 excludes your application from a very large installed user base of libc5 systems. Though some argue that by providing source code to the application allows the binary to be recompiled when the libraries change is, in fact, impractical. A potential customer, say a large bank, will be both unwilling and unable to recompile and re-install the code on several hundred workstations. Even if the bank were to recompile, the question of testing and QA remains unaddressed -- except for the fact that the bank is now using an untested product. You don't need an MBA to know that this is not a winning sales pitch. Future proofing The problem of keeping your application maintainable is addressed by every ISV port. The port has to meet current and future customer requirements, and must also be flexible enough to interface with existing legacy systems. Proving the source code allows changes to be made to the application to meet changes in a given installation or site. There is no shortage of help on the Internet where almost any programming question will lead to a myriad of answers. But what of applications ported to an open source platform (say Linux) and released without the source code? And what if the source code cannot be recompiled on-site? Let's say a product is ported to Linux and becomes popular, the installed base rising to 5,000 systems spread over, say, 1,500 sites. The provision of source code could easily result in several hundred individual source trees springing up over a number of different organizations and sites. Those of us who can remember releasing interpreted BASIC applications will remember the problems of the customers "fixing" their systems by changing the source code. Linux deployment is too new to determine the nature or impact of this problem, but there are already Linux applications statically linking to libraries to avoid the inconsistencies and problems resulting from the rapid Linux upgrade cycles. There is also a growing market for old Linux distributions, loosely termed "legacy Linux." People continue to buy Red Hat 4.1, old SuSE, and who knows what else. Why? They do it because they either don't want to or cannot upgrade. This "if it ain't broke don't fix it" thinking is backed by the costs of upgrading large-scale deployments. Binary only? No Way! There is no such thing as a free lunch. Anyone porting to open source will quickly discover that there is a huge groundswell of opinion that really frowns on so-called closed software releases. While there is support for organizations distributing such products, there is always a strong desire to see an open source (and free) equivalent. There is also constant downward price pressure on any product ported to Linux. For example, it is possible to get a complete Red Hat distribution, with manual, for less than $10. The price originally started at $50. Releasing the source code reveals all your intellectual property to the world at large, most notably to your competition (who will obviously want to profit from it). Releasing an open source distribution will result in a quicker development-to-market cycle -- that can often result in a competitive advantage to which competitors may have difficulty responding. One of the consequences of opening up your source code is that one source version will quickly prevail over the others -- a form of software Darwinism. This, in turn, will mean that there is one version of the product (say for example, a Web browser) which will make it very difficult for commercial competition. The open source business model assumes companies will make money from support and other related activities. Paradoxically, the chances of this are actually enhanced by the difficulty of finding qualified developers to make the required changes to the source code that the frantic development pace fosters. Given the pace at which open source technology changes, it could be argued that the entire business model is future-proofing jobs for the developers writing the code. Think this is wrong? Consider how many operating system kernel specialists are available. Or how many people have experience with compiler internals. Regardless of anything else, the first company to get a good source code release to market will almost certainly win. The penalty for getting it wrong is severe, since the intellectual property has been put into the public domain for anyone (that means your competition) to use. This is a paramount consideration for any organization considering releasing its source code under the GPL or open source licenses. Don't tell anyone, but... A lesser mentioned side-effect concerns the possibility that the source code can be taken and used in binary-only releases in ways that would be almost impossible to detect. The availability of such a vast range of free source code makes a very tempting target for organizations wanting to get product to market. This formerly taboo subject is just starting to be acknowledged as the benefits of a large, free, Internet developer resource is recognized and exploited. It is perfectly possible for anyone to build a product from open source code, but release it in a binary-only form. Any organization doing this would have an immediate commercial advantage over its competition -- the potential development savings are enormous and dramatically cuts the time to market. Update chaos For better or worse, Unix and Windows versions change slowly, allowing ISVs time for the four re's: react, recode, retest, and redeploy. It also allows the user community time to re-train as necessary. It is this stability that underpins the ISV, VAR, and enterprise markets. The constant update cycles that fuel the Linux industry make things difficult for enterprise deployment. In the same way that larger installations will be reluctant to constantly keep pace with the "latest kernel," it is equally unreasonable to make the ISV community do the same. Development is a small part of the life cycle of a software product. The real costs are incurred after deployment, when costs of legacy updates and changes make themselves felt. The support and maintenance costs created by the slow, careful update cycles of Unix and Windows are well understood (OK, at least we have experience with them), but calculating support contracts based on a changing number of Linux distributions with a rapidly changing source base is another matter entirely. One can reasonably assume that an HP-UX installation will not change the entire OS several times a year, but with Linux such changes are common. This is usually done under the assumption that all Linux is the same and everything will be OK. Linux resellers who install multiple applications on a Linux system already know that Linux distributions are different and that considerable problems can be encountered finding a distribution that will run a range of applications. Once a successful formula is found (it currently seems to be libc5-based), there is considerable reluctance to change. ISV applications porting to Linux absolutely have to ensure that they are compatible with all current and future flavors of Linux. Source code availability is irrelevant unless the ISV is happy for the open source development community to change the code base, a move that many may regard as a product takeover. This open development model is incredibly good in specific market segments where there is one, or maybe two competing products. Netscape for example, is the most (possibly the only) successful open source browser; competition is unlikely. How many open source alternatives to Oracle or Sybase are likely? When the source code is mind-bogglingly complex, open source releases win. If the code is relatively straightforward (most ISV applications), source code releases (and their products) will quickly merge. Let's just consider QA Better still, ask your QA VPs about their views on the customer base having unrestricted access to the source code. All ports have to come to terms with the customer's ability to change the underlying platform components and/or the source of the ported product. Having broken the entire installation, they will then complain that the product is defective and will require redress of some sort. (Perhaps this is why support contracts are linked so closely with open source business models.) With non-open source operating systems like Windows NT or Solaris, it is unlikely that the customer base will be able to substantially alter the operating system. For ISVs, this stability is important because it means the developer doesn't have to worry about what the customer might or might not have done to break the OS. Source code availability also requires that all the test and QA procedures for the product are released as well. Now let's be honest, how many products have a less-than-perfect test and QA process? It's not just technical issues Porting to Linux and/or open source is not just a case of the technical difficulties of making the product work. That's the easy part. Other considerations are harder to come to terms with. It has been commented many times that once ISVs are convinced there is money to be made in open source, they will come running. There is already great interest in the potential gold-mine of free development and royalty-free source code. But there is more concern about the way in which free source code availability will undermine a product's revenue-earning ability. This is ably demonstrated by the way that a Linux product will typically be priced 60% lower than its Unix or Windows equivalent. The product is identical, the source is (or should be) identical, so why the drastic price reduction? It's a question at the top of the list of unknowns when considering a port to Linux. And one that your customers will not miss. In conclusion, open source is an incredibly effective tool at breaking into specific or new markets and solving tough problems. It is left to the individual ISV to quantify the associated commercial risks against the potential benefits. The technical part is easy. The commercial risks are not widely known nor debated. So talk to some existing Linux ISVs, check out the competition's plans, and have fun with all the free code. Correction: The original version of this article incorrectly referred to the newer version of the C library as glib. The correct name is, in fact, glibc2. Thanks to Paul Iadonisi for pointing this out. [INLINE] Glossary free software: The original concept of releasing the source code with the executable, governed by the GPL license by Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation (FSF). Advocating that all software should be "freely available and available for free." The majority of Linux and "Open Source" code is covered by the GPL. Bottom line: The source code and all changes to it will remain in royalty-free use. open source: The main difference between open source and FSF is that open source software can be sold at whatever price the market will bear. Like the GPL, once source is released under the open source license, it remains royalty-free. Open source is widely seen as more business friendly than the FSF model, since you can at least sell your product. The differences (if any) between open source and Free Software are still debated, but at first glance it seems that both models prompt the same fundamental question from ISVs: How do you make money from something you give away? About the author Ian Nandhra Starting with Intel 8008 CPU's, Ian Nandhra has been developing systems for over 22 years. He is the president and co-founder of NC Laboratories Inc., a Stockton, CA-based application development company. NC Laboratories creates software for a variety of operating systems, including Linux. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 12:38:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29688 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:38:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29683 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:38:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA28645; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA21406; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:34:31 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA10460; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:34:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3640BA56.B5C70AA5@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:34:30 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linksys Designed for FreeBSD! (was: Linksys supports us?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > I did not know this : > > http://www.linksys.com/support/solution/nos/freebsd.htm Oh, this is tres cool. These guys *obviously* need a logo for their card. I'd even let'em put logos on the hubs and switches if they're willing. ;^) How's that artwork coming along, gang? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 12:43:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00676 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:43:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00671 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:43:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11828; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:43:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:43:31 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Wes Peters cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linksys Designed for FreeBSD! (was: Linksys supports us?) In-Reply-To: <3640BA56.B5C70AA5@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > Licia wrote: > > > > I did not know this : > > > > http://www.linksys.com/support/solution/nos/freebsd.htm > > Oh, this is tres cool. These guys *obviously* need a logo for their card. > I'd even let'em put logos on the hubs and switches if they're willing. ;^) > > How's that artwork coming along, gang? > > -- > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? > > Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 > Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com > At the moment, I've given up on artwork. I've no talent for it, and have received some unpleasant comments on the matter regarding my meager efforts. I will concentrate for now on developing my site, and let others with more talent handle this issue. [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 13:48:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12638 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:48:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail2.svr.freeserve.net (mail2.svr.freeserve.net [195.92.193.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12629 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:48:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-123.francium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.43.123] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail2.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #4) id 0zbAmd-0004Ig-00 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:48:07 +0000 Message-ID: <3640CB79.8312AD94@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 21:47:37 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Did you see? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While browsing for some info I found this (assuming it was lost): http://www.lexmark.com/networking/NSTL.html#_Toc390767648 There were two machines used in their test, one was NT ~ the other was FreeBSD. Can this be spun any way for advocacy? Admittedly it was in June '97. Quote: Server used for all NetWare network adapter tests: Intel Pentium Pro 200 System (Windows NT 4.0/NetWare 4.1 dual boot) Host used for TCP/IP network adapter tests: Intel Pentium Pro 200 System (FreeBSD OS) Or is this all old hat? -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 14:20:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17371 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:20:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17361 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:20:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4010.ime.net [209.90.195.20]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id RAA15994; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:19:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981104171703.00a9e5e0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:17:27 -0500 To: Christopher Raven , "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Did you see? In-Reply-To: <3640CB79.8312AD94@ukonline.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:47 PM 11/4/98 +0000, Christopher Raven wrote: >While browsing for some info I found this (assuming it was lost): > >http://www.lexmark.com/networking/NSTL.html#_Toc390767648 > > >There were two machines used in their test, one was NT ~ the other was >FreeBSD. Can this be spun any way for advocacy? Admittedly it was in >June '97. > > >Quote: >Server used for all NetWare network adapter tests: Intel Pentium Pro >200 System (Windows NT 4.0/NetWare 4.1 dual boot) > >Host used for TCP/IP network adapter tests: Intel Pentium Pro 200 >System (FreeBSD OS) > > > >Or is this all old hat? > > > > > > > > >-- >Christopher Raven >E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 >http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" >http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" > This is wild.. 2nd post today about somewhere using FreeBSD in their support list.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 14:36:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20420 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:36:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20220 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07954; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:41:07 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:41:06 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Jeremy Lea , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <709.910110116@time.cdrom.com> <19981103234933.A19042@shale.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19981103234933.A19042@shale.csir.co.za>; from Jeremy Lea on Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:49:33PM +0200 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:49:33PM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Something that really concerns me is the Linux advocates myth, > perpetuated by this memo, that FreeBSD is a closed development project. This is message I've been meaning to send out, but I haven't finished it, and other things have got in the way. Should anyone want to pick this up and run with it, please feel free; ========================================================================== I'm thinking of putting together a 'FreeBSD Myths' web page, either on my own site or as part of the FreeBSD site, to dispell some of the myths about FreeBSD, particularly in relation to other OS's. This is prompted (partly) by yet another posting on SlashDot from someone proclaiming that Linux follows the Bazaar development model, while FreeBSD is strictly Cathedral. I think there are a number of these myths out there, and a page or two countering them is probably a good thing. Possibly this might be better served as a 'Myths' section in the FAQ, but I haven't got that far yet. So I'm after myths about FreeBSD. Like the following. Myth: FreeBSD's development model is 'closed'. Only a select few can contribute code. It's 'Cathedral' style, where Linux follows the 'Bazaar' model. Reality: FreeBSD's development model is probably *more* Bazaar than Linux's. * The current, bleeding edge, source code for FreeBSD is available for anyone to download, 24 hours a day. There's no need to wait for someone to roll a release every few days. You can use this source code in conjunction with an existing system to stay up to date. * A snapshot is automatically generated every 24 hours. This snapshot can be installed in the same way as you would install every other released version of FreeBSD. * The CVS tree, with *all* versions of *every* file in the FreeBSD codebase is available for anyone to download, 24 hours a day. * Anyone can submit patches, bug reports, documentation, and so on, either from their FreeBSD machine or using a CGI program on the FreeBSD web site. Anyone can view the current list of these reports (and details) on the web. * Becomming a committer (someone who can make changes to the source tree without needing to submit a patch) typically happens after you've submitted several good patches or shown a willingness to work on an area of the system that's been neglected. Much like Linux. * There's a core team of 12 (?) people who have overall architectural control of where FreeBSD is heading. Just like Linus has overall control of the Linux kernel. Myth: You can't make your own distributions or derivative works of FreeBSD. Reality: Yes you can. You just need to say in the documentation and source files where the code is derived from (see the BSD license for more details). For example, PicoBSD is a tailored distribition of FreeBSD that fits on a floppy. Great for turning a diskless 386 into a router or network print server. Or look at the Whistle Interjet () which uses FreeBSD as the underlying OS in their 'network appliance'. Whistle have contributed many of their enhancements back to the FreeBSD codebase. Myth: FreeBSD makes a great server, but a poor desktop machine. Reality: FreeBSD makes a great server. It also makes a great desktop. The requirements for a server (responsiveness under load, stability, effective use of system resources) are the same requirements for a desktop machine. Myth: The BSD codebase is old, outdated, and dieing. Reality: Myth: You can't do clustering (parallel computers) with FreeBSD. Reality: Myth: There's no commercial support for FreeBSD. Reality: Myth: Linux is better than FreeBSD. Reality: Mu. Myth: FreeBSD is better than Linux. Reality: Mu. -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 15:11:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27228 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:11:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27223 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:11:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16302; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Nik Clayton cc: Jeremy Lea , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Nov 1998 21:41:06 GMT." <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 15:10:40 -0800 Message-ID: <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm thinking of putting together a 'FreeBSD Myths' web page, either on my > own site or as part of the FreeBSD site, to dispell some of the myths Please do! This looks like a very good start and I think you should just convert what you have to SGML immediately and let others contribute to an active page rather than waiting for "completion" before releasing it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 15:52:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04353 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:52:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04336 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:52:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25432; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:51:48 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981104235147.52127@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:51:47 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nik Clayton Cc: Jeremy Lea , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 03:10:40PM -0800 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 03:10:40PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm thinking of putting together a 'FreeBSD Myths' web page, either on my > > own site or as part of the FreeBSD site, to dispell some of the myths > > Please do! This looks like a very good start and I think you should > just convert what you have to SGML immediately and let others > contribute to an active page rather than waiting for "completion" > before releasing it. With the Handbook conversion ongoing, I haven't got time to do this now. As I say, if anyone else wants to pick this up and run with it, feel free. Otherwise, I'll get to it sometime next week no doubt. N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 15:53:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04511 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04503 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25432; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:51:48 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981104235147.52127@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:51:47 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nik Clayton Cc: Jeremy Lea , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 03:10:40PM -0800 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 03:10:40PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm thinking of putting together a 'FreeBSD Myths' web page, either on my > > own site or as part of the FreeBSD site, to dispell some of the myths > > Please do! This looks like a very good start and I think you should > just convert what you have to SGML immediately and let others > contribute to an active page rather than waiting for "completion" > before releasing it. With the Handbook conversion ongoing, I haven't got time to do this now. As I say, if anyone else wants to pick this up and run with it, feel free. Otherwise, I'll get to it sometime next week no doubt. N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 16:47:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14257 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (gamefish.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14251 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:47:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (psalzman@localhost) by gamefish.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA18513 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:48:15 GMT (envelope-from psalzman@gamefish.pcola.gulf.net) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:48:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Phillip Salzman To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Linux Review (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I forwarded this here earlier, but it did not appear to go through for some reason. Note, this email has been replied to. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:42:11 -0800 From: Cormac Foster To: Phillip Salzman Subject: RE: Linux Review Phillip, Hi. Thanks for writing in. We actually did mention FreeBSD back in our Alternative Operating System roundup (http://www.cnet.com/Content/Reviews/Compare/AltOS/), but while it's a great OS (I run it at home), CNET.COM's audience consists largely of mainstream desktop/notebook consumers, so I'm not sure if we'd be able to run a full-length feature. Not that I won't try to push it through... ;-) I'll also pass the thought on to our sister site, BUILDER.COM. BUILDER handles the admin/developer communities, so a FreeBSD piece might fit in really well for them. Thanks again, and I'll let you know if anything develops! = ), c > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillip Salzman [mailto:phill@corp.gulf.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 9:31 AM > To: cormacf@cnet.com > Subject: Linux Review > > > > I was wondering if you and/or your coworkers have any plans > to write an article on FreeBSD? This ``alternative'' OS is > very much like Linux, except it focuses on the server-side of > life a little more. Linux moves to the desktop to try to take > on Windows. > > With FreeBSD, you can also run most compiled Linux programs > extreamly fast. I use the Linux version of the RealVideo player, > for instance. > > FreeBSD also follows the BSD license, which enables software > developers to use it - and sell it for however much money they > like. It enables profit more than the GPL. > > If no one there wishes to write the article because of the lack of > knowledge with the OS, I will do it if you wish. > > > ____ _ _ _ _ > | _ \ | |__ (_)| || | @corp.gulf.net > | |_) || '_ \ | || || | Phillip Salzman, Systems Engineering > | __/ | | | || || || | Gulf Coast Internet Company > |_| |_| |_||_||_||_| http://www.gulf.net/ > * The Views of this person are those of his own, and not of > * Gulf Coast Internet Company or their clients. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 17:37:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20499 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:37:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20492 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:37:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA06066 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:07:04 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA06819; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:07:03 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981105120703.W784@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:07:03 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/copyright daemon.sgml Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FYI. For those of you who may not have seen this format before, it's the message which accompanies any change of the FreeBSD source repository. Greg ----- Forwarded message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" ----- > Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:20:51 -0800 (PST) > To: cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG > Precedence: bulk > X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > jkh 1998/11/04 15:20:50 PST > > Modified files: > en/copyright daemon.sgml > Log: > Remove all mention of the hated name "Chuck" from the description of > the daemon. He can just remain nameless on an official basis and, > unofficially, people can just call him whatever the heck they want, > I guess. :-) > > Requested many times by: mckusick > > Revision Changes Path > 1.12 +2 -7 www/en/copyright/daemon.sgml ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 17:44:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21377 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:44:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21370 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:44:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4043.ime.net [209.90.195.53]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA16195; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:44:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:42:25 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD advocacy list From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/copyright daemon.sgml In-Reply-To: <19981105120703.W784@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:07 PM 11/5/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >FYI. For those of you who may not have seen this format before, it's >the message which accompanies any change of the FreeBSD source >repository. > >Greg > >----- Forwarded message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" ----- > >> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:20:51 -0800 (PST) >> To: cvs-committers@FreeBSD.ORG, cvs-all@FreeBSD.ORG >> Precedence: bulk >> X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> jkh 1998/11/04 15:20:50 PST >> >> Modified files: >> en/copyright daemon.sgml >> Log: >> Remove all mention of the hated name "Chuck" from the description of >> the daemon. He can just remain nameless on an official basis and, >> unofficially, people can just call him whatever the heck they want, >> I guess. :-) >> >> Requested many times by: mckusick >> >> Revision Changes Path >> 1.12 +2 -7 www/en/copyright/daemon.sgml > >----- End forwarded message ----- > >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > Oh what a pity. Do we call it BrandX Daemon now? :-) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 17:49:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22300 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:49:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22285 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:49:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA06106; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:18:41 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA06859; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:18:36 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981105121836.Z784@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:18:36 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Drew Baxter , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/copyright daemon.sgml References: <19981105120703.W784@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com>; from Drew Baxter on Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 08:42:25PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 4 November 1998 at 20:42:25 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 12:07 PM 11/5/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> FYI. For those of you who may not have seen this format before, it's >> the message which accompanies any change of the FreeBSD source >> repository. >> >> ----- Forwarded message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" ----- >> >>> Remove all mention of the hated name "Chuck" from the description of >>> the daemon. He can just remain nameless on an official basis and, >>> unofficially, people can just call him whatever the heck they want, >>> I guess. :-) >>> >>> Requested many times by: mckusick >> ----- End forwarded message ----- >> >> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >> finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > Oh what a pity. Do we call it BrandX Daemon now? :-) To quote Kirk (16 Feb 1996; as Jordan says, "requested many times"): Also, he does not have a name. If he did have a name, it certainly would not be Chuck! So, please do not continue this Chuck travesty that Walnut Creek CD-ROM started in their catalog! I suggested 'bsdd', but he didn't like that either. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 17:51:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22700 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:51:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22693 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:51:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4038.ime.net [209.90.195.48]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA16206; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:51:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981104204858.00aa9420@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:49:30 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD advocacy list From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/copyright daemon.sgml In-Reply-To: <19981105121836.Z784@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com> <19981105120703.W784@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:18 PM 11/5/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wednesday, 4 November 1998 at 20:42:25 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 12:07 PM 11/5/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> FYI. For those of you who may not have seen this format before, it's >>> the message which accompanies any change of the FreeBSD source >>> repository. >>> >>> ----- Forwarded message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" ----- >>> >>>> Remove all mention of the hated name "Chuck" from the description of >>>> the daemon. He can just remain nameless on an official basis and, >>>> unofficially, people can just call him whatever the heck they want, >>>> I guess. :-) >>>> >>>> Requested many times by: mckusick >>> ----- End forwarded message ----- >>> >>> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >>> finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >> >> Oh what a pity. Do we call it BrandX Daemon now? :-) > >To quote Kirk (16 Feb 1996; as Jordan says, "requested many times"): > > Also, he does not have a name. If he did have a name, it certainly > would not be Chuck! So, please do not continue this Chuck travesty > that Walnut Creek CD-ROM started in their catalog! > >I suggested 'bsdd', but he didn't like that either. > >Greg >-- How about fuzzy little red Not-Devil Brand-X FreeBSD Daemon? --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 18:07:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25481 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25473 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:07:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id SAA01754; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id SAA09562; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:06:08 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id TAA13570; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:06:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3641080F.3FF66E8A@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 19:06:07 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Nik Clayton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > I'm thinking of putting together a 'FreeBSD Myths' web page, either on my > > own site or as part of the FreeBSD site, to dispell some of the myths > > Please do! This looks like a very good start and I think you should > just convert what you have to SGML immediately and let others > contribute to an active page rather than waiting for "completion" > before releasing it. I'll start off by contributing a title: "The Cathedral of the Bizarre". Sorry, this has been running through my head since I first heard of snark's somewhat goofy and inappropriate paper. ;^) Nik, when this is pretty much ready to go, please submit it to Daemon News; it'd make a great article. You may even want to consult with the NetBSD and OpenBSD teams, and compare their develoment models to ours and Linux. It seems, from the outside, that NetBSD is more and OpenBSD less distributed than FreeBSD, but all three are points along a line rather than being divergent methodologies. Be nice, stick to the facts, and do a great job! -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 18:41:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00829 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:41:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00815 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:41:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA12976; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:41:12 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981105134107.32872@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:41:08 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: Drew Baxter , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/copyright daemon.sgml References: <19981105120703.W784@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com> <19981105121836.Z784@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19981105121836.Z784@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:18:36PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:18:36PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 4 November 1998 at 20:42:25 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > > At 12:07 PM 11/5/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> FYI. For those of you who may not have seen this format before, it's > >> the message which accompanies any change of the FreeBSD source > >> repository. > >> > >> ----- Forwarded message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" ----- > >> > >>> Remove all mention of the hated name "Chuck" from the description of > >>> the daemon. He can just remain nameless on an official basis and, > >>> unofficially, people can just call him whatever the heck they want, > >>> I guess. :-) > >>> > >>> Requested many times by: mckusick > >> ----- End forwarded message ----- > >> > >> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > >> finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > > Oh what a pity. Do we call it BrandX Daemon now? :-) > > To quote Kirk (16 Feb 1996; as Jordan says, "requested many times"): > > Also, he does not have a name. If he did have a name, it certainly > would not be Chuck! So, please do not continue this Chuck travesty > that Walnut Creek CD-ROM started in their catalog! > > I suggested 'bsdd', but he didn't like that either. I think it should be called Freebie, but that name's kinda taken :-) Freebie the Silent Daemon BTW, I'm still not convinced it's a male, I mean, well, you can tell by looking. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 18:42:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01058 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:42:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01051 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:42:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA06411; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:12:37 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA07538; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:12:36 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981105131235.I784@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:12:35 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: Drew Baxter , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/copyright daemon.sgml References: <19981105120703.W784@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com> <19981105121836.Z784@freebie.lemis.com> <19981105134107.32872@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981105134107.32872@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 01:41:08PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 5 November 1998 at 13:41:08 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > BTW, I'm still not convinced it's a male, I mean, well, you can tell > by looking. Sorry to disappoint you, Sue. Daemons are neuter. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 22:39:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22364 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:39:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22353 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id WAA16540 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:39:06 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id WAA20081 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:39:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:38:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Status of Branding Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It seems the branding discussion was getting settled when the Halloween thingy struck. I guess I will have to see what all the ruckus is about. As I lurked from afar I saw TWO brands develop: "Works with" and "Designed for". I proposed several different names but that thread died an early death. Subliminal Hint: I like "100% FreeBSD Compatible" for the top honor. It is very assertive. I like "Works with FreeBSD" as it means what it says. I also saw some discussion about "up and coming" software distinction to be provided on a local level but not distributed to the world at large. What became of this? Have the names been set? If not, then let's pick them. Has anyone committed to committing our current _plan_ into a less morphable HTML format? I could do that this weekend if no one else has stepped up. The one thing I can actually do is write. :) I did read just about everything that came out of that thread so I think I could meld all of the ideas forwarded into a reasonably close document. Do we have an artist working on logo's yet? Have we seen any nice logo's yet? Eventually, we have to move from pure brainstorming to Rev. 1. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 23:02:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24348 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:02:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24320 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:02:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA17922 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:01:52 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA18298 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:01:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:01:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linksys Letter In-Reply-To: <3640BA56.B5C70AA5@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We can't pass up gimme's like this one. I invited Linksys to email this list and meet new "friends". I sent this one via an html form to "Public Relations" Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ cut and paste ****** I am a FreeBSD user and a Linksys user. My linksys Ether16 has worked flawlessly under FreeBSD since version 2.1.5 under the NE2000 compatible ed0 driver. I look forward to checking out the Linksys specific driver. I would like to thank you for supporting FreeBSD. I can assure Linksys that you have won many friends among FreeBSD advocates. Vendor supplied hardware support is highly appreciated by users of alternative operating systems. Thank You, Jason Wells P.S. Feel free to CC freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org if you would like to communicate directly with a large number of people who would be pleased to hear from you. ***** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 23:22:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26444 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:22:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26438 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA27734 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:22:02 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA06190 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:22:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:21:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linksys supports us? In-Reply-To: <14601.910206606@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Bill Paul probably provided them directly with the HTML to use, just >judging by the content, but it's still most impressive to start seeing >this kind of vendor buy-in. Three cheers for Mr. Paul and his PNIC >driver! Was this driver coded by us or them? In any case... I say let's "buy-in" right back. Can we fold their driver into our source tree and make the relationship between them and us more solid? I actually have an Ether16 that I could test the driver on. Though I really don't know how to fully test something like this, I could try. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 4 23:26:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27247 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:26:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27240 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:26:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA13392; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:25:53 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA05109; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:25:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:25:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Licia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linksys Designed for FreeBSD! (was: Linksys supports us?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Licia wrote: >At the moment, I've given up on artwork. I've no talent for it, >and have received some unpleasant comments on the matter regarding >my meager efforts. Your efforts are appreciated and to date I have neither seen, nor created an art of my own. Artists? Anyone? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 00:57:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07582 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:57:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calvin.saturn-tech.com ([207.229.19.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07575 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by calvin.saturn-tech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA09816; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:57:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:57:01 -0700 (MST) From: Doug Russell To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Do we have an artist working on logo's yet? Have we seen any nice logo's > yet? I've been meaning to toy with that, but I can't find a handy copy of CorelTrace or equiv. on my disk anywhere right now. :) Does anyone have some high(er) res pictures of the Mr. daemon, etc handy? (Higher than are on the gallery pages?) Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 01:46:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14446 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:46:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14441 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id EAA18953; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:45:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:45:56 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Doug Russell cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Doug Russell wrote: > I've been meaning to toy with that, but I can't find a handy copy of > CorelTrace or equiv. on my disk anywhere right now. :) Does anyone have > some high(er) res pictures of the Mr. daemon, etc handy? (Higher than are > on the gallery pages?) The one used at www.freebsdmall.com appears to have been cleaned up or redone. I dont think I've seen one of the daemon that clean and sharp before. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 05:22:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA09922 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA09880 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id IAA22943; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:21:10 -0500 (EST) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199811051321.IAA22943@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Did you see? To: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk (Christopher Raven) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:21:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3640CB79.8312AD94@ukonline.co.uk> from "Christopher Raven" at Nov 4, 98 09:47:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > While browsing for some info I found this (assuming it was lost): > > http://www.lexmark.com/networking/NSTL.html#_Toc390767648 > > > There were two machines used in their test, one was NT ~ the other was > FreeBSD. Can this be spun any way for advocacy? Admittedly it was in > June '97. > Quote: > Server used for all NetWare network adapter tests: Intel Pentium Pro > 200 System (Windows NT 4.0/NetWare 4.1 dual boot) > > Host used for TCP/IP network adapter tests: Intel Pentium Pro 200 > System (FreeBSD OS) > Or is this all old hat? > Actually, Lexmark is using FreeBSD internally as part of their Windows software development network. They use FreeBSD to download Windows images on to various machines for software testing and for use as a backup-catching machine for Windows boxes. > -- > Christopher Raven > E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 There's also some information on this at Usenix's web site under last year's SAGE symposium. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 10:45:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12420 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:45:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12413 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id KAA08800; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:43:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id KAA16797; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:43:25 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id LAA19303; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:43:24 -0700 Message-ID: <3641F1CC.BD949C66@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:43:24 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Sue Blake , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/copyright daemon.sgml References: <19981105120703.W784@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981104204210.00a9f810@genesis.ispace.com> <19981105121836.Z784@freebie.lemis.com> <19981105134107.32872@welearn.com.au> <19981105131235.I784@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 5 November 1998 at 13:41:08 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > BTW, I'm still not convinced it's a male, I mean, well, you can tell > > by looking. > > Sorry to disappoint you, Sue. Daemons are neuter. > And Sue, please get your mind out of the gutter. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 11:23:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17595 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17590 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:22:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28228; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:12:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:12:02 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Nik Clayton cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... In-Reply-To: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 11:49:33PM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: > > Something that really concerns me is the Linux advocates myth, > > perpetuated by this memo, that FreeBSD is a closed development project. > > This is message I've been meaning to send out, but I haven't finished > it, and other things have got in the way. Should anyone want to pick > this up and run with it, please feel free; > > ========================================================================== > > I'm thinking of putting together a 'FreeBSD Myths' web page, either on my > own site or as part of the FreeBSD site, to dispell some of the myths > about FreeBSD, particularly in relation to other OS's. This is prompted > (partly) by yet another posting on SlashDot from someone proclaiming > that Linux follows the Bazaar development model, while FreeBSD is > strictly Cathedral. I think there are a number of these myths out there, > and a page or two countering them is probably a good thing. > This is an excellent idea! Here's one to add. Not only does it show up in the "Halloween Document", but I have to constantly fight this myth with local Linux users who are not familiar with the history of the various BSD's. Myth: There are all these BSD groups in direct competition and not sharing their work. a.k.a the "BSD-spinoff-group-of-the-week phenomenon" Yes, there are several BSD projects, but each project has a disctinct focus to their work. Their goals are generally not in direct competition with one another. Furthermore the BSD's all separated many years ago. NetBSD, FreeBSD and BSD/OS projects have all been distinct projects for more than 5 years. OpenBSD is the exception and it is the _only_ new BSD based OS project to form outside of one of the existing groups in the last 5 years. The FreeBSD project is primarily focused on providing the best Intel based UNIX available. NetBSD has traditionally been focused on creating the best, most portable UNIX. Lastly the OpenBSD group is targeting their efforts at making the most secure UNIX available. The only other BSD based OS currently being developed is BSD/OS, and BSD/OS is an entirely commercial project and aims to be the best commercially supported server OS. True, all of the above support the Intel platform, but competing against the other BSD's in the Intel arena is not the goal of any of the projects. Source code developments are openly and frequently shared. BSDi has even donated proprietary code to the Open Source BSD's. Good and proven technology from one project frequently finds its way into the other projects. (Do I dare?) In contrast with the state of the Linux universe, there few enough BSD's that I can count them on one hand. it is diffucult to recall all of the different Linux distributions I have seen or encountered. There's Slackware, Cladera, Red Had, Yaggsdrill(sp?), Debian, etc... Where as source that builds on one BSD usually works without modification on the other, there are portability problems caused by the differences between the various Linux distributions, even though they all share the same kernel. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 11:32:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19155 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:32:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19134 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:32:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA09499; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA19216; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:31:59 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA19694; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:31:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:31:58 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > It seems the branding discussion was getting settled when the Halloween > thingy struck. I guess I will have to see what all the ruckus is about. > To sum up, we seem to have come to a rough consensus on what the two levels of branding mean, and that OUR web pages should include a third category for works-in-progress that do not yet meet the criteria for the lower level brand. I don't think we've achieved quite this level of agreement on the hardware side, but I think the software guidelines are pretty easy to adapt to hardware products. I'm not sure there is any hardware that really qualifies as "Designed for" or "Pure" FreeBSD, so perhaps we only apply the lower logo to hardware? What we need now are: 1) names for the two branding levels, and 2) artwork for both logos I can write up a description of the requirements for the two branding levels, and the "works in progress" and email it this weekend if that will help; I've been archiving the entire discussion. I've seen a number of good and quite a few bad names bandied about; I'm laying no claims to which of mine fall in which categories. My current favorites are "Pure FreeBSD" and "Works with FreeBSD," but cannot claim either of those have reached ANY level of consensus. ;^) With regard to graphics, IMHO each should include the FreeBSD daemon, and we should have at least two similar logos for each, one suitable for web pages and other advertising materials, and another small icon (roughly 25x25 mm) suitable for product boxes and/or media. If we can get going on the name discussion and the artwork, I think we might be able to put this to bed early next week. We can then run it past the FreeBSD core team to see if anyone is wildly opposed, and start emailing vendors. It would be nice to see a thread develop nominating vendors, both hard and software, for brand awards as soon as we're finished. We've seen quite a few mentioned in our discussions, but collecting a list would be a good idea. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 11:35:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19616 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19609 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:35:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA09553; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA19330; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:35:32 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA19712; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:35:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3641FE03.7AA4A278@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:35:31 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Branding project names Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is the start of the thread collecting suggestions for names for the FreeBSD branding programs. Please respond ONLY TO THE ADVOCACY mailing list, adding your suggested names. When the responses drop off, I'll collect the names into a coherent list and call for a vote via the mailing list. Thanks for your participation. Please don't cc me on your replies! 1) Designed for FreeBSD Pure FreeBSD 100% FreeBSD 2) Works with FreeBSD Works in FreeBSD Works on FreeBSD FreeBSD Compatible Great with FreeBSD (less filling! ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 11:43:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20564 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20551 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA09605; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:43:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA19522; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:43:14 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA19927; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:43:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3641FFD1.B98FA8DA@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 12:43:13 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This thread serves to list products suggested for initial branding under the FreeBSD Branding project logos. I've included three categories, two for software and one for hardware. My hardware list includes only hardware products that have some mention of FreeBSD on their web pages, or are known to have supported FreeBSD development in some way. Please feel free to object to nominations, but don't remove them from the list. Software category 1: (designed for) Netscape Navigator Applixware (once port is finished) Software category 2: (works with) Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux Hardware: (works with) Linksys EtherFast 10/100 NI card Adaptec SCSI controllers (haven't they helped with drivers?) Please add to the list as needed, replying ONLY to freebsd-advocacy. Once the logo project is ready to roll, we'll get these people on OUR web page, and get volunteers to contact them about reciprocating. Please note that this is a FreeBSD project, vendors do not have to agree to use the logo to be branded. The logo designs and web links are available if they wish to use them. All decisions about who does and does not recieve brands remains with us, the FreeBSD Advocates. (We are the marketing department, right?) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 11:56:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22239 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:56:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22210 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:56:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.21]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA46AA for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:56:09 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3641FE03.7AA4A278@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:00:01 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD Branding project names Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tsk, tsk forgetting all about picoBSD eh? ;) On 05-Nov-98 Wes Peters wrote: > This message is the start of the thread collecting suggestions for names > for the FreeBSD branding programs. Please respond ONLY TO THE ADVOCACY > mailing list, adding your suggested names. When the responses drop off, > I'll collect the names into a coherent list and call for a vote via the > mailing list. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 12:11:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24455 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24417 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:10:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23774; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:04:31 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981105200431.62325@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:04:31 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Nik Clayton , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Jeremy Lea , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com> <19981104235147.52127@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19981104235147.52127@nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 11:51:47PM +0000 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Nov 04, 1998 at 11:51:47PM +0000, Nik Clayton wrote: > With the Handbook conversion ongoing, I haven't got time to do this now. > As I say, if anyone else wants to pick this up and run with it, feel > free. Otherwise, I'll get to it sometime next week no doubt. Oh sod it, I didn't want a lunch hour today anyway :-) Comments appreciated. I've also got in touch with the NetBSD and OpenBSD advocacy groups -- the next revision of this document won't be FreeBSD specific. Oh, FWIW I've mailed Eric Raymond a copy of the first section and asked him whether or not he thinks I've mis-represnted his position. His reply will no doubt be interesting. . . If I don't get any complaints, I'll add the successor to this to the FreeBSD web site at some point over the weekend. My thanks to opsys@mail.webspan.net and grog@lemis.com, both of whom were quick to the mark with their own HTML versions. N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 12:12:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24682 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24672 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:12:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16147 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:11:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:11:57 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names In-Reply-To: <3641FE03.7AA4A278@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > This message is the start of the thread collecting suggestions for names > for the FreeBSD branding programs. Please respond ONLY TO THE ADVOCACY > mailing list, adding your suggested names. When the responses drop off, > I'll collect the names into a coherent list and call for a vote via the > mailing list. > > Thanks for your participation. Please don't cc me on your replies! > > 1) Designed for FreeBSD > Pure FreeBSD > 100% FreeBSD > I am personally not comfortable with any of these three. (speaking as a programmer who is interested in 'certifying' some of her software as it's released). These current names seem to imply things that may not be true, and would cause me to think twice before applying the label if my software were designed for native release on multiple os's. Something like FreeBSD Native, Native FreeBSD, or FreeBSD Compatible would pose fewer quandries in the decision to certify. > 2) Works with FreeBSD > Works in FreeBSD > Works on FreeBSD > FreeBSD Compatible > Great with FreeBSD (less filling! ;^) > In this category, I prefer either FreeBSD Compatible, FreeBSD Adaptable or Works on FreeBSD. > -- > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? > > Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 > Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 12:34:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26738 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26733 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:34:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA26038; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:34:41 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA20740; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:34:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Wes Peters cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Vendor List In-Reply-To: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >It would be nice to see a thread develop nominating vendors, both hard >and software, for brand awards as soon as we're finished. We've seen >quite a few mentioned in our discussions, but collecting a list would >be a good idea. Let's get started. I nominate everything in the ports tree that needs no emulation for the "Upper" brand. I nominate everything in the ports tree that needs emulation for the "Lower" brand. I would like to also point out these vendors and invite everyone to just add to the list. Hardware: Linksys - Upper Adaptec - Upper (they gave us code right?) Software: Applixware - Upper Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 12:37:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27183 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:37:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27156 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:37:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA14954 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:37:20 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA22043 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:37:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:36:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names In-Reply-To: <3641FE03.7AA4A278@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >This message is the start of the thread collecting suggestions for names >for the FreeBSD branding programs. Please respond ONLY TO THE ADVOCACY >mailing list, adding your suggested names. When the responses drop off, >I'll collect the names into a coherent list and call for a vote via the >mailing list. > >Thanks for your participation. Please don't cc me on your replies! > >1) Designed for FreeBSD > Pure FreeBSD > 100% FreeBSD 100% FreeBSD Compatible >2) Works with FreeBSD > Works in FreeBSD > Works on FreeBSD > FreeBSD Compatible > Great with FreeBSD (less filling! ;^) Nothing to add here. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 12:39:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27620 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27612 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:39:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA39372 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:39:05 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA21078 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:39:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:38:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: DIE THREAD! Was: Vendor List Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes beat me to it by a little. Just let this thread die. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 12:47:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28967 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28949 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:47:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA39678 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:46:58 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA14705 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:46:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:46:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations In-Reply-To: <3641FFD1.B98FA8DA@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >Software category 1: (designed for) > Netscape Navigator > Applixware (once port is finished) Everything in the ports tree that doesn't need emulation, commercial or not. >Software category 2: (works with) > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux Linux Netscape Linux Rvplayer Everything in the ports tree that needs emulation, commercial or not. >Hardware: (works with) > Linksys EtherFast 10/100 NI card Some other Linksys cards are covered too, right? > Adaptec SCSI controllers (haven't they helped with drivers?) Video Cards that are supported by XFree86 (sure to invite commentary. This is a FAQ though. People want to know if some card "works with FreeBSD) >Please add to the list as needed, replying ONLY to freebsd-advocacy. I had this one written already too and was going to post it. You are jsut too fast Wes. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:03:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01433 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:03:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wopr.inetu.net (wopr.inetu.net [207.18.13.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01428; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:03:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ziggy@wopr.inetu.net) Received: from localhost (ziggy@localhost) by wopr.inetu.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06849; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:03:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:03:02 -0500 (EST) From: Ryan Ziegler To: Terry Lambert cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Documentation upgrade: where are the other humans? In-Reply-To: <199811041850.LAA10454@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG lets move this to advocacy, On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > When not getting paid, programmers tend to code what they find > > interesting. We can say the same thing for writers when writing. I would > > say technical documentation is not the most exciting literary form, nor > > are the arguments for kmem_free() the most exciting subject matter. > > > > What we need are technical writers who feel a severe allegiance to > > FreeBSD. > > Or people who get off on techinical writing, or a professor with > an allegiance to FreeBSD in charge of a Technical Writing class. > > I have to say that there exist people who actually enjoy doing > things that the rest of us would find about as enjoyable as > home dentistry (those of you with capped teeth, imagine removing > your caps with an awl). > > I have a sister who happens to enjoy double-column bookkeeping. > It takes all kinds... > > > I also think that it's very likely that someone who had to take > a technical writing class for their CS/CIS/MIS/BIS degree would > have classmates who were English Majors or whatever, also looking > for writing projects, and that it would be a good idea to encourage > them suggesting FreeBSD documentation to their classmates as a > potential "project fodder gold mine". > > I know that if I were to adjunct teach a technical writing class, > I'd be please as punch if I could find a never-ending supply of > projects, all in the same general problem space; it'd make it a > hell of a lot easier to grade on a curve. Its more of a question of how many people who really enjoy home dentistry exist. Not many, simply isn't glamorous enough. What we need to do is to paint the technical writer as some sort of a hero or rogue. Give him a catchy name. "The dockers, a brand new breed of technical writers, infiltrating open source archives and documenting everything they see. They stop at nothing to see the cvs repositories of the world bloating up with inline documentation." Get an article on CNet and we're off. Approaching professors of technical writing classes doesn't seem like a bad idea, but those students have no allegiance to freebsd. We would easily wind up with inferior documentation (you can argue if thats better than no documentation at all). Maybe we could set up a synergy with the professor. The prof refers his students to us, they do what we want, and if we accept their work they get A's, otherwise, F's. > > > > > Maybe it's just that the majority of people are too busy sitting > > > on their butts hacking code in cave-like computer labs to talk > > > to people in other departments on campus? > > > > You're not suggesting that we're a tad clannish, are you? :) > > Well, this *is* a "free software" project, not a "free product" > project... it's kind of self-limiting in its involvement of > people not that interested in producing software. > > The Linux Documentation project has that whole "Young Communist" > thing going for it... I am still suprised to see that the microsoft vs good-software division hasn't erased the their-free-os vs our-free-os division. I also would think that with all the talk of OSS nowadays, people would be eager to latch onto the 'its not just linux and apache, its everyone' idea. Maybe they have, I don't know. Has freebsd tried to jump in the pool yet? Maybe, also, I make too many assumptions -Ryan > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:16:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02863 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:16:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02858 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.21]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA258D; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:15:44 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:19:37 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Licia Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Nov-98 Licia wrote: > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >> 1) Designed for FreeBSD >> Pure FreeBSD >> 100% FreeBSD >> > > I am personally not comfortable with any of these three. (speaking as a > programmer who is interested in 'certifying' some of her software as it's > released). These current names seem to imply things that may not be true, > and would cause me to think twice before applying the label if my software > were designed for native release on multiple os's. Something like FreeBSD > Native, Native FreeBSD, or FreeBSD Compatible would pose fewer quandries in > the decision to certify. Does the term Open Source seem valid with a term such as the above motto's? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:25:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03699 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03693 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA01918; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:25:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:24:54 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Linux "best of breed?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ESR is circulating another memo that's supposedly been leaked from Mirosoft. This one calls Linux a "best of breed" UNIX implementation; see http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28397,00.html Ahem! It's beginning to sound as if these Linux memos, leaked by Linux zealots, are a little too self-serving to be real. Maybe a word or two from the FreeBSD PR machine might be useful here. Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:25:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03724 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ryan.org (kenny.inetu.net [206.245.142.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03694 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@ryan.org) Received: from localhost (ryan@localhost) by ryan.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07826 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:23:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ryan@ryan.org) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:23:17 -0500 (EST) From: Ryan To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe ryan@ryan.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:25:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03776 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03752 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA27702; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981105132504.A27664@oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:25:04 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: "Jason C. Wells" , Wes Peters Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Vendor List Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:34:19PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:34:19PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > > >It would be nice to see a thread develop nominating vendors, both hard > >and software, for brand awards as soon as we're finished. We've seen > >quite a few mentioned in our discussions, but collecting a list would > >be a good idea. > > Let's get started. > > I nominate everything in the ports tree that needs no emulation for the > "Upper" brand. > > I nominate everything in the ports tree that needs emulation for the > "Lower" brand. > > I would like to also point out these vendors and invite everyone to just > add to the list. > > Hardware: > > Linksys - Upper > Adaptec - Upper (they gave us code right?) I would add Etinc here.. Even though they dont give us code for the driver the card does work well. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 1:23PM up 14:04, 5 users, load averages: 0.82, 0.82, 0.83 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:26:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04120 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:26:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04107 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:26:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16427; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:26:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:26:24 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 05-Nov-98 Licia wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > >> 1) Designed for FreeBSD > >> Pure FreeBSD > >> 100% FreeBSD > >> > > > > I am personally not comfortable with any of these three. (speaking as a > > programmer who is interested in 'certifying' some of her software as it's > > released). These current names seem to imply things that may not be true, > > and would cause me to think twice before applying the label if my software > > were designed for native release on multiple os's. Something like FreeBSD > > Native, Native FreeBSD, or FreeBSD Compatible would pose fewer quandries in > > the decision to certify. > > Does the term Open Source seem valid with a term such as the above motto's? > > > --- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai > asmodai(at)wxs.nl > Junior Network/Security Specialist > FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... > I'm sorry, I don't seem to understand your question. What is the connection between open source and the process of labeling software and hardware which does or can be made to run under FreeBSD? Is the labeling to be withheld from any proprietary or closed source material that fits the other criteria? [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:54:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07641 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07631 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:54:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id NAA00375; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:53:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981105135340.A29556@best.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:53:40 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" References: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 02:24:54PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 02:24:54PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > ESR is circulating another memo that's supposedly been leaked from > Mirosoft. This one calls Linux a "best of breed" UNIX implementation; see > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28397,00.html > > Ahem! It's beginning to sound as if these Linux memos, leaked by Linux > zealots, are a little too self-serving to be real. > > Maybe a word or two from the FreeBSD PR machine might be useful here. > > Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message Yup. You got it. It is FreeBSD users that do PR for FreeBSD. -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 13:56:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07781 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07776 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:56:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.21]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4BA; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:55:43 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:59:36 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Licia Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Nov-98 Licia wrote: >> > I'm sorry, I don't seem to understand your question. What is the > connection > between open source and the process of labeling software and hardware which > does or can be made to run under FreeBSD? Is the labeling to be withheld > from any proprietary or closed source material that fits the other > criteria? That Open Source and in a way an open project such as FreeBSD and then labeling software with terms such as 'Designed for FreeBSD' might tend to Microsoft like practices... Just in my opinion offcourse... I think that terms that focus on the openess of FreeBSD and it's associated packages might be a better idea... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 14:11:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09567 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09562 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:11:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.21]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA7129; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:11:28 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:15:22 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Nov-98 Brett Glass wrote: > ESR is circulating another memo that's supposedly been leaked from > Mirosoft. This one calls Linux a "best of breed" UNIX implementation; see > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28397,00.html > > Ahem! It's beginning to sound as if these Linux memos, leaked by Linux > zealots, are a little too self-serving to be real. > > Maybe a word or two from the FreeBSD PR machine might be useful here. > > Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. Do we really want the type of users Linux users aspire too? I have been doing Linux for a while and the average user tends to average to the script kiddi3z... I prefer the more mature radiance of FreeBSD... All IMHO offcourse... Plus the sources are better readable instead of being hacks =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 14:14:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09942 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:14:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09934 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:14:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA16460; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:14:00 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA07601; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:13:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:13:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Brett Glass cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. Would you get off it? Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 14:27:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11177 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:27:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11172 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA19310; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:27:38 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA21798; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:27:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:27:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >That Open Source and in a way an open project such as FreeBSD and then >labeling software with terms such as 'Designed for FreeBSD' might tend to >Microsoft like practices... Just in my opinion offcourse... > >I think that terms that focus on the openess of FreeBSD and it's associated >packages might be a better idea... You are a bit late to the table. Nothing in this discussion compromises FreeBSD's commitment to openness. This idea is to help users now what works with FreeBSD and to help vendors be recognized as providing software or hardware that is useful with FreeBSD. If all goes well, people will eventually look for a little daemon on a box or a website and immmediately recognize that they can use this product on their FreeBSD box. It might be to Kirk McKusick's chagrin, maybe people will come to know and love "Chuck." Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 14:34:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11782 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:34:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11775 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.21]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5E52; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:33:49 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:37:42 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Nov-98 Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>That Open Source and in a way an open project such as FreeBSD and then >>labeling software with terms such as 'Designed for FreeBSD' might tend to >>Microsoft like practices... Just in my opinion offcourse... >> >>I think that terms that focus on the openess of FreeBSD and it's associated >>packages might be a better idea... > > You are a bit late to the table. Nothing in this discussion compromises > FreeBSD's commitment to openness. That might account for it ;) > This idea is to help users now what works with FreeBSD and to help vendors > be recognized as providing software or hardware that is useful with > FreeBSD. ok, logical step > If all goes well, people will eventually look for a little daemon on a box > or a website and immmediately recognize that they can use this product on > their FreeBSD box. Icky... Although the goal may be noble, it's too MS-like IMHO... > It might be to Kirk McKusick's chagrin, maybe people will come to know and > love "Chuck." Heh, I know one thing, want to scare away non-US people using FreeBSD? Call him "Chuck" ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 14:56:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14301 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:56:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14295 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:56:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28587; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 14:58:25 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:31:58PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:31:58PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > I don't think we've achieved quite this level of agreement on the hardware > side, but I think the software guidelines are pretty easy to adapt to > hardware products. I'm not sure there is any hardware that really > qualifies as "Designed for" or "Pure" FreeBSD, so perhaps we only apply > the lower logo to hardware? Whistle InterJet ftp.cdrom.com :) Nokia VPN200 routing firewall modules and most likely more... Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Was Jimi's modem a Purple Hayes? mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 15:11:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16436 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:11:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16389 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:11:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA10165 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:41:14 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA00689; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:41:12 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981106094112.B438@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:41:12 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project names References: <3641FE03.7AA4A278@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3641FE03.7AA4A278@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:35:31PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 5 November 1998 at 12:35:31 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > This message is the start of the thread collecting suggestions for names > for the FreeBSD branding programs. Please respond ONLY TO THE ADVOCACY > mailing list, adding your suggested names. When the responses drop off, > I'll collect the names into a coherent list and call for a vote via the > mailing list. > > Thanks for your participation. Please don't cc me on your replies! > > 1) Designed for FreeBSD > Pure FreeBSD > 100% FreeBSD How about "FreeBSD version"? In this category, we can assume it doesn't run on anything else. If they include a special version for FreeBSD on the CD, they have the option of changing the text to "includes [native] FreeBSD version". > 2) Works with FreeBSD > Works in FreeBSD > Works on FreeBSD > FreeBSD Compatible > Great with FreeBSD (less filling! ;^) "Runs on FreeBSD". I don't like "works". Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 15:29:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19014 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:29:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19009 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:29:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26587; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:28:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Nik Clayton cc: Jeremy Lea , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:04:31 GMT." <19981105200431.62325@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:28:03 -0800 Message-ID: <26583.910308483@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Oh sod it, I didn't want a lunch hour today anyway :-) > > Looking good! The graphic at the top is hosed, though I imagine you knew that. Also, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin posted some stuff about the true nature of the "splits" in BSD; you might want to suck that in. All in all, a very good start and something which needed to be said. I wonder if we want to also drag my posting out of the advocacy archives and attach it to this doc as a link under "our position on the hallowwen document" or something? Just a thought. Thanks for giving up your lunch hour, anyway. :) - Jordan > > Comments appreciated. I've also got in touch with the NetBSD and OpenBSD > advocacy groups -- the next revision of this document won't be FreeBSD > specific. Oh, FWIW I've mailed Eric Raymond a copy of the first section > and asked him whether or not he thinks I've mis-represnted his position. > His reply will no doubt be interesting. . . > > If I don't get any complaints, I'll add the successor to this to the > FreeBSD web site at some point over the weekend. > > My thanks to opsys@mail.webspan.net and grog@lemis.com, both of whom > were quick to the mark with their own HTML versions. > > N > -- > C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 15:38:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20091 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:38:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20086 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:38:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA03255; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:38:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981105161409.042f3e20@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:15:05 -0700 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:15 PM 11/5/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Do we really want the type of users Linux users aspire too? Be uppity about which customers you'll accept, and pretty soon you'll have none. I see businesses fail this way all the time. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 15:44:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20695 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:44:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20687 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA03303; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:44:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981105163821.00c0dbb0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:44:07 -0700 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, I'm sorry, but I don't continue to nag, it doesn't look as if anything is going to happen. Fact is, FreeBSD is losing fast to Linux in mindshare, and if this trend isn't turned around soon there will be no way to do anything about it later. You'll see lots of great UNIX programming tools, applications, etc. coded in a way that's so Linux-specific that you won't be able to get by without a Linux box. Do you really want to have to shake your head and tell people, "I'd like to recommend FreeBSD for this task, but under the circumstances you'd really best go with Linux?" Sorry to disturb you, but this is your wake-up call. --Brett Glass At 02:13 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: >On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > >>Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. > >Would you get off it? > >Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering >Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 15:49:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21283 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21276 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:49:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.21]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA338C; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:48:42 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105161409.042f3e20@127.0.0.1> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:52:36 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Nov-98 Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:15 PM 11/5/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>Do we really want the type of users Linux users aspire too? > > Be uppity about which customers you'll accept, and pretty soon > you'll have none. I see businesses fail this way all the time. OK, valid point and taken ;) I just was aiming at the script kiddi3z side of Linux... Ah well... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 15:55:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21975 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21970 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:55:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id PAA10314; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:55:05 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id PAA08586; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:55:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:54:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: DIE THREAD! Was: Vendor List In-Reply-To: <19981106093310.A438@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >Which thread? > >Greg Allow me to be more clear. I started the "Vendor list" thread about the same time the Wes Peters started a like thread. His format was better, so I am asking folks to just ignore the thread I started which is titled "Vendor List". Sorry for the confusion. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 16:07:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24432 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:07:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24427 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4005.ime.net [209.90.195.15]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id TAA17519; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:07:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981105185704.00a92400@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:05:12 -0500 To: Brett Glass , "Jason C. Wells" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105163821.00c0dbb0@127.0.0.1> References: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:44 PM 11/5/98 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >Well, I'm sorry, but I don't continue to nag, it doesn't look as >if anything is going to happen. Fact is, FreeBSD is losing fast >to Linux in mindshare, and if this trend isn't turned around soon >there will be no way to do anything about it later. You'll see >lots of great UNIX programming tools, applications, etc. coded >in a way that's so Linux-specific that you won't be able to get >by without a Linux box. Do you really want to have to shake your >head and tell people, "I'd like to recommend FreeBSD for this >task, but under the circumstances you'd really best go with Linux?" > >Sorry to disturb you, but this is your wake-up call. > >--Brett Glass > >At 02:13 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >> >>>Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. >> >>Would you get off it? >> >>Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering >>Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ >> Wakeup calls would be kinda neat if they were at the bottom of the thread, thanks. Lets just say, it's not the cute penguin, that's for sure. You're right, it could happen, all of the tools come out for Linux... A user is a user though, even if it's some 12 year old thinking he's K-R4D and 31337 for using Linux and smurfing the crap out of people. Unfortunately such tools don't usually compile on FreeBSD. I think that this whole certification idea is going to take off though. Hopefully this will put FreeBSD on the board somewhere.. Either way, I'm not planning on changing, and nor are many of the people that are on here now. And we have DEMANDS of what we want to do with it.. So your wake-up call isn't valid. Too many people post to this list let alone the other lists. Too many places are using FreeBSD technology integrated into their solutions, and who knows how many people didn't register when they installed it. If suddenly -hackers is getting 2 posts a day.. And most of the regular posters in -advocacy somehow become dead.. THEN there is a problem. First place I'm looking, is for that damned penguin.. ;-) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 16:50:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28104 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28097 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:50:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26922; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:24:54 MST." <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:50:33 -0800 Message-ID: <26919.910313433@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Maybe a word or two from the FreeBSD PR machine might be useful here. Already in the works - a FreeBSD myths page is being generated by Nik and I hope he'll also put in a reference to my recent posting to -advocacy which pretty much clarified my view, at least, of this whole halloween nonsense. > Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. Now now, such hyperbole is beneath you. Of course we do PR, just not enough PR to please everyone out there. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 16:57:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28708 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:57:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28701 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:57:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA04366; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:57:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981105165738.A4070@oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:57:38 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: Brett Glass , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> <4.1.19981105161409.042f3e20@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105161409.042f3e20@127.0.0.1>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 04:15:05PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 04:15:05PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:15 PM 11/5/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > >Do we really want the type of users Linux users aspire too? > > Be uppity about which customers you'll accept, and pretty soon > you'll have none. I see businesses fail this way all the time. > > --Brett Most corporations only go by what Society shows as acceptable. So in saying that all Corporations have been uppity to the Free Software ideal. So Brett if you want to see anything happen get off your duff and do something. Don't complain if you aint doing anything. Ron P.S. Just my 2 Cents worth -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 4:53PM up 17:34, 5 users, load averages: 1.03, 0.88, 0.78 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 17:06:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29346 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29341 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:06:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4005.ime.net [209.90.195.15]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA17574; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:06:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981105200329.00a96950@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:04:05 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <26919.910313433@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:50 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Maybe a word or two from the FreeBSD PR machine might be useful here. > >Already in the works - a FreeBSD myths page is being generated by Nik >and I hope he'll also put in a reference to my recent posting to >-advocacy which pretty much clarified my view, at least, of this whole >halloween nonsense. > >> Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. > >Now now, such hyperbole is beneath you. Of course we do PR, just not >enough PR to please everyone out there. > >- Jordan > Last I knew, PR = Money, and that'd kinda kill the *Free* word.. I'd say any PR that FreeBSD gets is 'better than nothing'. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 17:36:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01662 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:36:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01656 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27118; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:37:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:44:07 MST." <4.1.19981105163821.00c0dbb0@127.0.0.1> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:37:13 -0800 Message-ID: <27114.910316233@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Sorry to disturb you, but this is your wake-up call. Sean Connery has a great line in The Untouchables where he, riddled with gunfire and dying, grabs Kevin Costner by the shirt and demands "What are you prepared to DO? WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO??" A lot more than be an alarm clock with an expensive college school education, one hopes? A lot more than that is certainly needed, of course, and having an advocacy group which spends its days going "wail! moan! despair!" in a collective fashion also strikes me as a fine way of going under. Any group of people engaged in such activity are not generally notable for actually being productive. More to the point, if we actually subjected all the messages posted to this mailing list over the last 6 months to even the most rudimentary statistical analysis, I'm highly confident that we'd find something like: 78% General gnashing of teeth, rending of cloth 22% Content actually dedicated to furthering advocacy and I'm probably being far too lenient with those figures, if anything. The psych majors will probably tell us that numbers like these are a general indication of Some Sort of Group Dysfunction which Only Trained Sociologists Can Really Understand, but I say bah. The numbers indicate to *me* that too many people have simply fallen in love with reporting on the game from the sidelines and have forgotten that they were supposed to be out on the field actually playing it. To put it another way, if people devoted themselves to the process of conducting their own advocacy efforts with the same energies I've seen them devote to freaking out about Linux's own efforts or screaming about falling chunks of sky, we'd have the BSD daemon on the cover of Time Magazine by now. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 17:43:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02273 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:43:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02264 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4005.ime.net [209.90.195.15]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA17601; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:43:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981105204113.00a77c40@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:41:32 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <27114.910316233@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:37 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Sorry to disturb you, but this is your wake-up call. > >Sean Connery has a great line in The Untouchables where he, riddled with >gunfire and dying, grabs Kevin Costner by the shirt and demands "What >are you prepared to DO? WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO DO??" > >A lot more than be an alarm clock with an expensive college school >education, one hopes? A lot more than that is certainly needed, of >course, and having an advocacy group which spends its days going >"wail! moan! despair!" in a collective fashion also strikes me as a >fine way of going under. Any group of people engaged in such activity >are not generally notable for actually being productive. > >More to the point, if we actually subjected all the messages posted to >this mailing list over the last 6 months to even the most rudimentary >statistical analysis, I'm highly confident that we'd find something >like: > > 78% General gnashing of teeth, rending of cloth > 22% Content actually dedicated to furthering advocacy > >and I'm probably being far too lenient with those figures, if >anything. The psych majors will probably tell us that numbers like >these are a general indication of Some Sort of Group Dysfunction which >Only Trained Sociologists Can Really Understand, but I say bah. The >numbers indicate to *me* that too many people have simply fallen in >love with reporting on the game from the sidelines and have forgotten >that they were supposed to be out on the field actually playing it. > >To put it another way, if people devoted themselves to the process of >conducting their own advocacy efforts with the same energies I've seen >them devote to freaking out about Linux's own efforts or screaming >about falling chunks of sky, we'd have the BSD daemon on the cover of >Time Magazine by now. > >- Jordan > And here I thought that this years Time Man of the Year was the BSD Daemon itself... Damn I lost the bet. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 18:16:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04217 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04212 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA147088; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:17:26 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:16:34 -0500 To: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 2:24 PM -0700 11/5/98, Brett Glass wrote: > ESR is circulating another memo that's supposedly been leaked > from Microsoft. This one calls Linux a "best of breed" UNIX > implementation; see > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28397,00.html Microsoft thinks Windows is a "best of breed" operating system. Clearly they measure "best of breed" by counting the number of machines it is running on. Based on that criteria, it's quite believable that Microsoft might think linux is "best of breed". > Ahem! It's beginning to sound as if these Linux memos, leaked > by Linux zealots, are a little too self-serving to be real. > > Maybe a word or two from the FreeBSD PR machine might be useful > here. Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. I'm hearing more about freebsd and openbsd than I used to. It seems to me that things are improving. But even ignoring that, what *exactly* do you think the FreeBSD project should do for this specific instance? Send email to news.com saying "Oh yeah? We're best of breed, not Linux!". news.com is just reporting this story, and it is a valid story for them to report. We don't need to go running around after every story about Linux and say "HEY, WE EXIST TOO, OVER HERE, OVER HERE, PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!!". We need to write our own stories, and make our own case for our own project. Seems to me that several people have been encouraging FreeBSD users to do just that. Write our own stories, talking about our own goals. Running after every Linux story just makes us look like we don't have anything of our own to say, other than we want to get in on Linux's fame. I think that's the wrong kind of PR to have. I think Jordan had it right in the message that started off the "On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo..." thread. Just my opinion, of course. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 18:48:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06707 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:48:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06694 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09430; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:48:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36426366.3485FF76@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:48:06 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Other "brands" (not: FreeBSD Branding project names) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > Tsk, tsk > > forgetting all about picoBSD eh? ;) > Yes and no. picoBSD is more a "variant" of FreeBSD than an application of it. It is really a special case, more like combined hw/sw products based on FreeBSD, like the InterJet and Pluto Space, which *I* think are just as cool as can be. Maybe we need to come up with a special category for these: "FreeBSD Inside" or "Built on FreeBSD." Anything built using picoBSD would obviously qualify. Right now, we're mostly trying to push through the two software application logos; we'll learn enough doing this that the next one (or two) shouldn't be as difficult. Please, folks, let's keep the "Names" replies ON-TOPIC! You really CAN change that subject line, you know! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 18:52:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07179 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:52:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07172 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:52:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09438; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:51:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3642643C.88EFB4DB@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 19:51:40 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai CC: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: NOT! FreeBSD Branding project names References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 05-Nov-98 Licia wrote: > >> > > I'm sorry, I don't seem to understand your question. What is the > > connection > > between open source and the process of labeling software and hardware which > > does or can be made to run under FreeBSD? Is the labeling to be withheld > > from any proprietary or closed source material that fits the other > > criteria? > > That Open Source and in a way an open project such as FreeBSD and then > labeling software with terms such as 'Designed for FreeBSD' might tend to > Microsoft like practices... Just in my opinion offcourse... > > I think that terms that focus on the openess of FreeBSD and it's associated > packages might be a better idea... Could we please keep this ON-TOPIC. If you want to add a name, add one, if you want to discuss this to death, you should have been here last week or the week before. If you don't like the names we have now, suggest a better alternative and vote when the vote is called for! PLEASE KEEP THIS ON-TOPIC! Add names to the lists or don't hit the reply button! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 19:00:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA07977 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:00:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA07970 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:00:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09451; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:00:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36426650.66564522@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:00:32 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding recommendations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, please note how I changed the subject line since this isn't on-topic for the original discussion. I know I'm harping about this, but you're going to make it much more difficult to collate real recommendations from angst-ridden diatribes in the end. "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > Everything in the ports tree that doesn't need emulation, > commercial or not. > > Everything in the ports tree that needs emulation, commercial or > not. The main idea here is to get vendors to add FreeBSD logos to their web pages. While I'm not opposed to awarding logos to *anything* that runs on FreeBSD, I'm not sure we need to try to stick a daemon on ls or make. On the other hand, we do want OUR web page touting FreeBSD applications to be complete, nay even exhaustive. So I'll leave the above on the list, and we'll work on fleshing out the accompanying list of applications as the web page comes to life. Many of those non-commercial applications have web sites of their own, and might be willing to (ahem) chuck a daemon on their page. ;^) > Video Cards that are supported by XFree86 (sure to invite > commentary. This is a FAQ though. People want to know if some > card "works with FreeBSD) > > >Please add to the list as needed, replying ONLY to freebsd-advocacy. > > I had this one written already too and was going to post it. You are jsut > too fast Wes. I'm home sick today. I really am sick, and far too tired to write code that has to keep up with a 1,000,000 packet per second switching backplane. Apparently not too sick to outrun Jason, though. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 19:40:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10809 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:40:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10804 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:40:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09528; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:39:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:39:49 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter CC: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:31:58PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > I don't think we've achieved quite this level of agreement on the hardware > > side, but I think the software guidelines are pretty easy to adapt to > > hardware products. I'm not sure there is any hardware that really > > qualifies as "Designed for" or "Pure" FreeBSD, so perhaps we only apply > > the lower logo to hardware? > > Whistle InterJet > ftp.cdrom.com :) > Nokia VPN200 routing firewall modules Pluto Space I'm thinking of a "built with FreeBSD" logo for hw/sw products. Or, dare I say it, "FreeBSD Inside"?!?!?! Sound good? bad? perverse? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 19:47:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11730 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:47:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11718 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:47:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4042.ime.net [209.90.195.52]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id WAA17695; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:47:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981105224429.0091e340@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 22:45:00 -0500 To: Wes Peters , Gregory Sutter From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Status of Branding Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy In-Reply-To: <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:39 PM 11/5/98 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:31:58PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >> > >> > I don't think we've achieved quite this level of agreement on the hardware >> > side, but I think the software guidelines are pretty easy to adapt to >> > hardware products. I'm not sure there is any hardware that really >> > qualifies as "Designed for" or "Pure" FreeBSD, so perhaps we only apply >> > the lower logo to hardware? >> >> Whistle InterJet >> ftp.cdrom.com :) >> Nokia VPN200 routing firewall modules >Pluto Space > >I'm thinking of a "built with FreeBSD" logo for hw/sw products. Or, >dare I say it, "FreeBSD Inside"?!?!?! > >Sound good? bad? perverse? > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes Peters Softweyr LLC >http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > Alright.. I'm giving my 2 cents worth.. I think it'd be cool.. See "Uses FreeBSD Technology" would be cool too, but I think it sounds kinda lame in comparison. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 19:49:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12059 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:49:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12053 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:49:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09548; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:49:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <364271BB.7923DF1B@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:49:15 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Clayton CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com> <19981104235147.52127@nothing-going-on.org> <19981105200431.62325@nothing-going-on.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik Clayton wrote: > > Oh sod it, I didn't want a lunch hour today anyway :-) > > > > Comments appreciated. I've also got in touch with the NetBSD and OpenBSD > advocacy groups -- the next revision of this document won't be FreeBSD > specific. Great! Now you need to mention Daemon News, and the level of cooperation between all three Free BSD's that makes this news magazine possible. Don't forget to link it to http://www.daemonnews.org/ -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 20:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13411 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:06:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13404 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:06:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA11161; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:35:45 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA01712; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:35:40 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:35:39 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , Gregory Sutter Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 08:39:49PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 5 November 1998 at 20:39:49 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:31:58PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >>> >>> I don't think we've achieved quite this level of agreement on the hardware >>> side, but I think the software guidelines are pretty easy to adapt to >>> hardware products. I'm not sure there is any hardware that really >>> qualifies as "Designed for" or "Pure" FreeBSD, so perhaps we only apply >>> the lower logo to hardware? >> >> Whistle InterJet >> ftp.cdrom.com :) >> Nokia VPN200 routing firewall modules > > Pluto Space > > I'm thinking of a "built with FreeBSD" logo for hw/sw products. Not necessarily the case. > Or, dare I say it, "FreeBSD Inside"?!?!?! I'm sure you dare. I hope you won't say it again :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 20:07:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13571 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:07:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13562 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09586; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:07:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <364275E7.5656F1FF@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:07:03 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: article@daemonnews.org CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD NewsFlash: High-speed router research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Copyright © 1998 Wes Peters An article entitled "High-Speed Data Paths in Host-Based Routers" in the November 1998 issue of Computer, the journal of the IEEE Computer Society, details research into high-speed network routing. The researchers, Simon Walton, Anne Hutton, and Joe Touch, describe their research into speeding the deliver of packets from one network interface (NI) to another. Their research network included high- speed Myrinet NIs and switches from Myricom, and test workstations and a routing host comprised of 200 Mhz PentiumPro processors running FreeBSD 2.2.5. "We found that as a host-based router, the hosts provide bandwidths near 335 Mbps using existing production drivers and the FreeBSD software." Once again, the quality and reliability of the BSD networking stack has been recognized in a leading-edge research project. [Editorial note, not for publication in Daemon News: this is startingly close to the work I do at my "day job", where I am working on an enhancement using new hardware to do basically what is described in this paper. The difference is, we have a lot of dedicated hardware to help us with this, and we can switch almost any kind of physical layer traffic.] -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 20:13:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14124 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:13:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14089 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:12:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09601; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:12:03 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36427713.295D836A@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:12:03 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linksys supports us? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Licia wrote: > > I did not know this : > > http://www.linksys.com/support/solution/nos/freebsd.htm > I just revisited the Linksys page to refresh my memory on how many of their cards they mention on this page. They even cover the 10/100 PC-Card! I feel pretty strongly this is a good candidate for our hardware compatiblity logo, and that they will be willing to drop it on this page. We should also tell them about the boot-time configuration editor, for the ISA cards. They still thing you have to edit the config file and build a new kernel in order to support a NE2000-type device at nonstandard settings. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 20:19:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14662 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:19:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14655 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:18:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09613; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:18:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:18:18 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Gregory Sutter , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > > Or, dare I say it, "FreeBSD Inside"?!?!?! > > I'm sure you dare. I hope you won't say it again :-) Yeah, I can be pretty shameless, huh? I realized we already have the ideal logo for products like the above, which come prepacked with FreeBSD in their brain: "Powered by FreeBSD" All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the two computers in front of me. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 20:22:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15004 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:22:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14999 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:22:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA11222; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:52:12 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA01742; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:52:02 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:52:02 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: Gregory Sutter , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 09:18:18PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 5 November 1998 at 21:18:18 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>> Or, dare I say it, "FreeBSD Inside"?!?!?! >> >> I'm sure you dare. I hope you won't say it again :-) > > Yeah, I can be pretty shameless, huh? > > I realized we already have the ideal logo for products like the > above, which come prepacked with FreeBSD in their brain: > > "Powered by FreeBSD" Now that has a nice ring to it :-) > All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the > two computers in front of me. It would be a good start to have the stickers. This looks like a separate thread... Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 20:45:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16422 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:45:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16400 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:45:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09674; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:44:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36427EB4.AABA1891@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:44:36 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG CC: miker@cnet.com Subject: Halloween memo - what does it mean? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have just re-read several portions of the "Halloween Memo," and some of the on-line media coverage of it. While wading through all of the hooplah, I came across a nugget of wisdom in a C|Net article entitled "Memo angers open source advocates," in which writer Mike Ricciuti paraphrases the memo thusly: "Warning that the growing popularity of Linux and other so-called open source software (OSS) poses a direct threat to Microsoft's revenue stream..." Now how many of us here REALLY believe Microsoft is concerned with the impact of Linux, Apache, Sendmail, or any other "Open Source Software" on their bottom line? Show of hands? Yes, Terry, you may go to the bathroom. Anyone else? I thought not. So why, you must ask yourself, are we hearing about the "Linux threat" daily? Why is something that has NEVER before popped up on the radar screen suddenly become the "talk of the town?" Why do we suddenly have two memos leaked from one of the most paranoid organizations in the world, perhaps second only to Intel? Why indeed! What is Microsoft up to? The LAWSUIT, dummy! I wonder how Mr. Raymond is going to feel, when he wakes up after all this is over, faced with his real position in this global power play. The Microsoft PR engine, recognizing Mr. Raymond for his rabid advocacy and limited foresight, has played him like a Stradivarius. They don't even have to conduct the campaign themselves; all they have to do is conjure up a fake memo each week, "leak" it to their unwitting friend Snark, and let him tell the entire Internet and hence the world that Linux is going to clobber Microsoft and render them monopoly-less. And that is the point of all this, is it not: Microsoft cannot have a MONOPOLY on desktop computing because all those rabid Linux fans out there are giving away their system, right? I can't wait to see what next week's memo will bring. Another internal memo describing how IE 5.0 will recognize Apache and Netscape web servers and respond slower to them, making them look less responsive? (Oh, that's right, IE 4.0 *already does this.*) Extensions to Exchange that make it incompatible with mail clients from Netscape and Eudora. But that's already public policy, leaked in this week's memo. Boy, you never know what "innovation" those Microsoft product planners will come up with next, do you? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 21:02:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17283 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:02:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17272 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:02:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4042.ime.net [209.90.195.52]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id AAA17758; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:02:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981105234842.00aa25c0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:00:18 -0500 To: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? In-Reply-To: <36427EB4.AABA1891@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ---Cnet.com was dropped from the CC, didn't think it needed to go to them?--- At 09:44 PM 11/5/98 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >I have just re-read several portions of the "Halloween Memo," and >some of the on-line media coverage of it. While wading through all >of the hooplah, I came across a nugget of wisdom in a C|Net article >entitled "Memo angers open source advocates," in which writer Mike >Ricciuti paraphrases the memo thusly: > >"Warning that the growing popularity of Linux and other so-called open >source software (OSS) poses a direct threat to Microsoft's revenue >stream..." > >Now how many of us here REALLY believe Microsoft is concerned with >the impact of Linux, Apache, Sendmail, or any other "Open Source >Software" on their bottom line? Show of hands? > >Yes, Terry, you may go to the bathroom. Anyone else? I thought not. > Damn, can I have the pass when he gets back, Mr. Peters? >So why, you must ask yourself, are we hearing about the "Linux threat" >daily? Why is something that has NEVER before popped up on the radar >screen suddenly become the "talk of the town?" Why do we suddenly >have two memos leaked from one of the most paranoid organizations in >the world, perhaps second only to Intel? Why indeed! What is Microsoft >up to? I don't hear about it every day. But pretty close. I started to hear about the Linux threat when I was reading up on Caldera's "You can use DR DOS Under Windows 95, it's just Microsoft sucks" stuff. > >The LAWSUIT, dummy! > >I wonder how Mr. Raymond is going to feel, when he wakes up after all >this is over, faced with his real position in this global power play. >The Microsoft PR engine, recognizing Mr. Raymond for his rabid >advocacy and limited foresight, has played him like a Stradivarius. >They don't even have to conduct the campaign themselves; all they >have to do is conjure up a fake memo each week, "leak" it to their >unwitting friend Snark, and let him tell the entire Internet and >hence the world that Linux is going to clobber Microsoft and render >them monopoly-less. Oh yeah, we're going to see the Penguin stomp the Microsoft logo. Personally I think the 100+ messages regarding the damn thing over the last week or two in the FreeBSD lists alone is getting rather old. Does this really affect FreeBSD? Not yet. Could Microsoft eventually affect FreeBSD and OSS? Maybe. But I could tell you I'm going to shit on your foot, but if I do it, it's a totally other thing.. >And that is the point of all this, is it not: Microsoft cannot have >a MONOPOLY on desktop computing because all those rabid Linux fans >out there are giving away their system, right? Free is the universal solvent. You can't beat free. That's why you see people (Netmarket for instance) giving away free Travel stuff and things like that. Because if they give it away, you look at their site, maybe buy something, sign up, etc. >I can't wait to see what next week's memo will bring. Another >internal memo describing how IE 5.0 will recognize Apache and Netscape >web servers and respond slower to them, making them look less responsive? >(Oh, that's right, IE 4.0 *already does this.*) Extensions to >Exchange that make it incompatible with mail clients from Netscape >and Eudora. But that's already public policy, leaked in this week's >memo. Boy, you never know what "innovation" those Microsoft product >planners will come up with next, do you? No that's Microsoft's Media Player 2.0 intentionally causing a problem in which it breaks Realplayer. Oracle(?) reported issues of this happening with their software too. Personally, I think Operating System manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to make market-competitive applications. Not if we're just going to have intentional flukes exploited by installing Exchange and Eudora on a machine or something like that. Microsoft is testing the waters for laws that haven't been established. HOPEFULLY, We will get some standards as to what is correct etiquette and what is downright bad for competition. > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes Peters Softweyr LLC >http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 21:19:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18661 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:19:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18650 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:19:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA11360; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:49:10 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA01796; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:49:09 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981106154908.A1776@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:49:08 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: miker@cnet.com Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? References: <36427EB4.AABA1891@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <36427EB4.AABA1891@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 09:44:36PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 5 November 1998 at 21:44:36 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > I have just re-read several portions of the "Halloween Memo," and > some of the on-line media coverage of it. While wading through all > of the hooplah, I came across a nugget of wisdom in a C|Net article > entitled "Memo angers open source advocates," in which writer Mike > Ricciuti paraphrases the memo thusly: > > "Warning that the growing popularity of Linux and other so-called open > source software (OSS) poses a direct threat to Microsoft's revenue > stream..." > > Now how many of us here REALLY believe Microsoft is concerned with > the impact of Linux, Apache, Sendmail, or any other "Open Source > Software" on their bottom line? Show of hands? > > Yes, Terry, you may go to the bathroom. Anyone else? Me. > I thought not. > > So why, you must ask yourself, are we hearing about the "Linux threat" > daily? Why is something that has NEVER before popped up on the radar > screen suddenly become the "talk of the town?" Why do we suddenly > have two memos leaked from one of the most paranoid organizations in > the world, perhaps second only to Intel? Why indeed! What is Microsoft > up to? > > The LAWSUIT, dummy! No doubt. > I wonder how Mr. Raymond is going to feel, when he wakes up after all > this is over, faced with his real position in this global power play. > The Microsoft PR engine, recognizing Mr. Raymond for his rabid > advocacy and limited foresight, has played him like a Stradivarius. > They don't even have to conduct the campaign themselves; all they > have to do is conjure up a fake memo each week, "leak" it to their > unwitting friend Snark, and let him tell the entire Internet and > hence the world that Linux is going to clobber Microsoft and render > them monopoly-less. Certainly there's a good question about how Eric came to get hold of these documents. > And that is the point of all this, is it not: Microsoft cannot have > a MONOPOLY on desktop computing because all those rabid Linux fans > out there are giving away their system, right? Right. It's a good thing that FreeBSD doesn't figure Yes, I got the impression pretty early on that this whole business is at least partially related to the lawsuit. But that doesn't mean that that is the only reason, nor that Microsoft deliberately planted it. Think back to when it came out, and people claimed that esr had written it himself, and others said that it looked nothing like Microslop. I suspect that this memo does, in fact, reflect Microsoft's concerns to some degree. It's been written by a minion (I got a mail message from somebody who went to school with him and gave him a call when he heard. He doesn't want his name to be mentioned), and there's no evidence that Microsoft is going to do what he recommends. Maybe they decided the best thing they could do with it is leak it. But I think you're misjudging Microsoft if you think that's the only reason it was written. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 21:33:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19208 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19203 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA21411; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:34:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:34:53 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Nik Clayton cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jeremy Lea , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... In-Reply-To: <19981105200431.62325@nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Nik Clayton wrote: > specific. Oh, FWIW I've mailed Eric Raymond a copy of the first section > and asked him whether or not he thinks I've mis-represnted his position. > His reply will no doubt be interesting. . . Oh you MUST post that :-) -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 21:33:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19330 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:33:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calvin.saturn-tech.com ([207.229.19.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19324 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:33:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by calvin.saturn-tech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13253; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:32:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:32:45 -0700 (MST) From: Doug Russell To: Brett Glass cc: "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105163821.00c0dbb0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > Well, I'm sorry, but I don't continue to nag, it doesn't look as > if anything is going to happen. Fact is, FreeBSD is losing fast > to Linux in mindshare, and if this trend isn't turned around soon > there will be no way to do anything about it later. You'll see > lots of great UNIX programming tools, applications, etc. coded > in a way that's so Linux-specific that you won't be able to get > by without a Linux box. Do you really want to have to shake your > head and tell people, "I'd like to recommend FreeBSD for this > task, but under the circumstances you'd really best go with Linux?" I have to agree. I don't want to see EVERYTHING go too linux-specific. Now, I'm not saying we need to go CrazyNuts about it as some linux camps have done, but I think it is important to get some basic exposure during these critical times! We can't just have the attitude that we can sit back and wait for everything to fall into FreeBSD's lap, so to speak. There are far too many people out there who do not have access to all the facts and information. (Yet) It is our job to help educate the masses. Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 21:47:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20161 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calvin.saturn-tech.com ([207.229.19.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20154 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:47:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by calvin.saturn-tech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13304 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:46:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:46:57 -0700 (MST) From: Doug Russell To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" In-Reply-To: <27114.910316233@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > To put it another way, if people devoted themselves to the process of > conducting their own advocacy efforts with the same energies I've seen > them devote to freaking out about Linux's own efforts or screaming > about falling chunks of sky, we'd have the BSD daemon on the cover of > Time Magazine by now. Amen! Please, everyone. When you have an idea, no matter how small or insignificant it may seem. GO FOR IT. We must. We MUST! I'm in the process of drawing up some signs and banners to put in out reception area at the office. I'm ordering some CDs from Walnut Creek to have right there for all those who walk in our door and ask "What on earth is THAT?!". Well, my friends. Say hello to the Daemon. :) Even the little things help. Even if it's a FreeBSD poster you put on your office wall, or a sticker on your car, or whatever you can think of. Write an article. Talk to your local news stations! Go have a chat with your friendly neighborhood computer book store. Run an ad in your local paper. School paper. University free classified ads. Start a users group. I should have dressed as a daemon for Halloween..... EVERY BIT HELPS. Do it. Do it. Do it! Later...... ps: Sorry, Nike. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 22:08:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21538 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:08:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21519 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:07:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09796; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:07:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36429226.49A3B42D@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 23:07:34 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, miker@cnet.com Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? References: <36427EB4.AABA1891@softweyr.com> <19981106154908.A1776@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > Yes, I got the impression pretty early on that this whole business is > at least partially related to the lawsuit. But that doesn't mean that > that is the only reason, nor that Microsoft deliberately planted it. > Think back to when it came out, and people claimed that esr had > written it himself, and others said that it looked nothing like > Microslop. > > I suspect that this memo does, in fact, reflect Microsoft's concerns > to some degree. It's been written by a minion (I got a mail message > from somebody who went to school with him and gave him a call when he > heard. He doesn't want his name to be mentioned), and there's no > evidence that Microsoft is going to do what he recommends. Maybe they > decided the best thing they could do with it is leak it. But I think > you're misjudging Microsoft if you think that's the only reason it was > written. No, I suspect it was written because someone was told to research Linux and come up with ways to respond to it. I've done the same work many times, even *against* open-source software. Yes, indeed, when I designed Security Toolkit/UNIX, our number-one competition was COPS. I met Dan Farmer at Uniforum that year, and he was quite condescending. This is probably the primary reason why COPS, and nearly everything else Mr. Farmer has done, have sunk into obscurity, while what remains of Security Toolkit/UNIX is now a $50,000,000/year business. Nobody THERE was condescending to their customers, or condescending about potential business adversaries, including COPS. I authored a similar multi-page memo outlining to the sales staff how to sell Security Toolkit/UNIX vs. COPS. It touches on many of the points Microsoft makes vs. Linux, FreeBSD, and other essentially unsupported "OSS." None of this has anything to do with the timing of this memo, where it showed up, or the bare fact that Microsoft is just not a "leaking" culture. Their product plans and market research are among the most closely held secrets on this planet, and I am highly suspicious of the number of holes that have opened up in Redmond in the last few weeks. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 22:36:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23136 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:36:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23130 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:36:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29530; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:36:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:36:34 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Wes Peters cc: Nik Clayton , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... In-Reply-To: <364271BB.7923DF1B@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: > > > > Oh sod it, I didn't want a lunch hour today anyway :-) > > > > > > > > Comments appreciated. I've also got in touch with the NetBSD and OpenBSD > > advocacy groups -- the next revision of this document won't be FreeBSD > > specific. > > Great! > > Now you need to mention Daemon News, and the level of cooperation > between all three Free BSD's that makes this news magazine possible. > Don't forget to link it to http://www.daemonnews.org/ Even better, submit it as an article for the next issue of Daemon News. The current one is noticably lighter than the last issue. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 22:39:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23368 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:39:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.84.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23363 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:39:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu) Received: from danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu [128.151.84.217]) by danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (8.9.1a+3.1W/8.9.1/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id CAA14716; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:34:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 02:34:27 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Berlin To: Greg Lehey cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, miker@cnet.com Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? In-Reply-To: <19981106154908.A1776@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > I wonder how Mr. Raymond is going to feel, when he wakes up after all > > this is over, faced with his real position in this global power play. > > The Microsoft PR engine, recognizing Mr. Raymond for his rabid > > advocacy and limited foresight, has played him like a Stradivarius. > > They don't even have to conduct the campaign themselves; all they > > have to do is conjure up a fake memo each week, "leak" it to their > > unwitting friend Snark, and let him tell the entire Internet and > > hence the world that Linux is going to clobber Microsoft and render > > them monopoly-less. > > Certainly there's a good question about how Eric came to get hold of > these documents. Sigh. The memos aren't conjured up. They are just months old. Unless all of us at MS are in some great conspiracy to lie to the entire world. I dunno about the rest of the people who work for/at MS, but I sure as hell don't get paid enough to do that. I saw the first one in August, and the second after. Any intern will tell you they are authentic. Don't have to take the word of the ones who still work for MS, find some disgruntled ones, and they'll tell you the same thing. I have no idea how Eric gets ahold of these documents. MS has a very large number of employees. Our letters to Beta testers get leaked to the press constantly, as do other sensitive things (not for any intentional reason. I've personally helped track down people (outside MS) who were the source of some of the leaks, and trust me, bad things happened to them.). It's not that tricky for someone to forward this to Eric. There are plenty of people at MS who run Linux/FreeBSD/what have you. And there are plenty of us who contribute to Open Source stuff. Personally, i'm not about to violate all kinds of legal agreements, as the money i make working part time for MS research helps pay for my college tuition. But remember, the average employee is a millionaire. (Note i said EMPLOYEE. I don't know stats offhand, but i'd say most MS'ers are contractors) There are those willing to take the risks. MS leaks like a sieve. Why now? Who the hell knows. Maybe Bill got drunk. (I know that one will come back to haunt me). Who the hell cares anyway? It seems to me that if it had come anytime during the timeframe of the antitrust stuff, from the beginning of when the case started, everyone would still say the same thing. So it's like anything leaked in the past 5 months is a plant. And anything leaked until the case is over is also a plant. It's getting out of hand. People saying that MS is planting people on Slashdot, mailing lists, etc. Like the same marketing people who thought up "Windows 2000" would think up planting people. They must be schizophrenic, since some days they are completely stupid and innocent, others, brilliant and diabolical. Completely different personalities, complete opposites. I've had people tell me i'm a plant. I've always thought myself an animal, but thats okay. I'm a plant. No, really, I am. Want proof? I subscribed a few weeks ago. I work for MS Research. Therefore, i'm a plant. Quod Erot(sp?) Demonstratum. It's as if they pay me big bucks to sit here and write the freebsd mailing list, while i procrastinate instead of doing my calc homework. It looks great on my resume too. "Fall 1998-Present Plant for Microsoft in the FreeBSD advocacy list - I was responsible for sitting around and writing the mailing list, doing absolutely nothing important." Can't you just see some employer looking at that and being impressed? Gotta run, the black helicopters are chasing me again, Dan Covert Plant - FreeBSD mailing lists^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Microsoft Research^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H danielb@university.microsoft.com^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H root@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu (Pheww, almost gave it away there. The life of a spy is always exciting) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 23:04:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25796 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25788 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:04:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA31310; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:04:06 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA12116; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:04:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:03:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Wes Peters cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: The call for input tired out already? In-Reply-To: <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have seen maybe 4 whole messages that actually added items to Wes' lists. There was a hell of a lot of email flying the last couple days. What? Everyones fingers are tired. You can rest assured that after the few people who gave their input give their vote on the names of branding that we will see hordes of people saying "But you can't use that name. I like this better!" I will then be forced to repost this letter to say "Man we tried like crazy to get input. Where were you before we set our course?" In other words, speak now or forever keep your peace. Please, please, if you haven't, add your input to both of Wes' lists. The time for big discussions is past. Just add some simple stuff to Wes' list. It's easy. It's fun. It's time to get it done. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 23:08:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26155 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26150 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA06751; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:08:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981106000654.040b1e70@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:08:22 -0700 To: insane@oneinsane.net, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981105165738.A4070@oneinsane.net> References: <4.1.19981105161409.042f3e20@127.0.0.1> <4.1.19981105142239.00c6f340@127.0.0.1> <4.1.19981105161409.042f3e20@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:57 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: >Most corporations only go by what Society shows as acceptable. So in saying >that all Corporations have been uppity to the Free Software ideal. So Brett >if you want to see anything happen get off your duff and do something. Don't >complain if you aint doing anything. Hey -- over the last few months I've mentioned FreeBSD in more major venues than anyone I know. But it's not enough for ME to do it; there should be press releases. From the source. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 23:10:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26479 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:10:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26469 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:10:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA54462; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:10:40 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA10202; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:10:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:10:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Wes Peters cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: branding recommendations In-Reply-To: <36426650.66564522@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >Folks, please note how I changed the subject line since this isn't >on-topic for the original discussion. I know I'm harping about this, >but you're going to make it much more difficult to collate real >recommendations from angst-ridden diatribes in the end. Thank you for taking the bit and getting this going. It is going to be hard to get all of this "opinion" in here moving in a well defined direction. >The main idea here is to get vendors to add FreeBSD logos to their >web pages. While I'm not opposed to awarding logos to *anything* >that runs on FreeBSD, I'm not sure we need to try to stick a daemon >on ls or make. Fair enough. >On the other hand, we do want OUR web page touting FreeBSD applications >to be complete, nay even exhaustive. So I'll leave the above on the >list, and we'll work on fleshing out the accompanying list of applications >as the web page comes to life. Many of those non-commercial applications >have web sites of their own, and might be willing to (ahem) chuck a >daemon on their page. ;^) Even exhaustive. Even people like the author of 'xmcd' can help us get mindshare while we help them get users. The list for ports is quite long. You'll note I did not list them individually. I am having a hard enough time keeping up with the sickly one in the handbasket. :) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 23:13:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26739 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26732 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:13:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id XAA16189 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:12:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981105231258.A15866@oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:12:58 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <27114.910316233@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Doug Russell on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 10:46:57PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would love to have a couple of FreeBSD posters of Chuck, One at home and a fedw in the office. Where can I get some good ones ;-) TTYL Ron On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 10:46:57PM -0700, Doug Russell wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > To put it another way, if people devoted themselves to the process of > > conducting their own advocacy efforts with the same energies I've seen > > them devote to freaking out about Linux's own efforts or screaming > > about falling chunks of sky, we'd have the BSD daemon on the cover of > > Time Magazine by now. > > Amen! > > Please, everyone. When you have an idea, no matter how small or > insignificant it may seem. GO FOR IT. We must. We MUST! > > I'm in the process of drawing up some signs and banners to put in out > reception area at the office. I'm ordering some CDs from Walnut Creek to > have right there for all those who walk in our door and ask "What on earth > is THAT?!". Well, my friends. Say hello to the Daemon. :) > > Even the little things help. Even if it's a FreeBSD poster you put on > your office wall, or a sticker on your car, or whatever you can think of. > > Write an article. Talk to your local news stations! Go have a chat with > your friendly neighborhood computer book store. Run an ad in your local > paper. School paper. University free classified ads. Start a users > group. > > I should have dressed as a daemon for Halloween..... > > EVERY BIT HELPS. > > Do it. Do it. Do it! > > Later...... > > ps: Sorry, Nike. :) > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 11:11PM up 23:52, 3 users, load averages: 0.51, 0.68, 0.68 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 23:22:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27532 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27516 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:22:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA15337; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:21:47 +1100 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:21:47 +1100 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" In-Reply-To: <19981105231258.A15866@oneinsane.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: : I would love to have a couple of FreeBSD posters of Chuck, One at home : and a fedw in the office. Where can I get some good ones ;-) : TTYL : Ron A topic in a freebsd channel i frequent once was: Like, what does FreeBSD have over linux? | Except for the Daemon of course... That daemon is *BSD's biggest ally. Where can we get some bigass posters from? Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 23:27:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28019 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:27:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28014 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:27:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id XAA16704 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:27:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981105232738.C15866@oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:27:38 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 02:52:02PM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How hard would it be to make some small stickers of "Powered by FreeBSD" and package them with the CD set. That way we have recognition on our machines. And for people selling servers they can put them on there as well.. Justa thought. Ron On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 02:52:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > "Powered by FreeBSD" > > Now that has a nice ring to it :-) > > > All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the > > two computers in front of me. > > It would be a good start to have the stickers. This looks like a > separate thread... > > Greg -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 11:23PM up 1 day, 4 mins, 3 users, load averages: 0.60, 0.88, 0.81 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 5 23:32:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28431 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:32:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28426 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:31:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id XAA16876 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:31:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981105233148.D15866@oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 23:31:48 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> <16298.910221040@time.cdrom.com> <19981104235147.52127@nothing-going-on.org> <19981105200431.62325@nothing-going-on.org> <364271BB.7923DF1B@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <364271BB.7923DF1B@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 08:49:15PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nik, Awesome Job. On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 08:49:15PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: > > > > Oh sod it, I didn't want a lunch hour today anyway :-) > > > > > > > > Comments appreciated. I've also got in touch with the NetBSD and OpenBSD > > advocacy groups -- the next revision of this document won't be FreeBSD > > specific. > Wes, You are doing an Awesome job > Great! > > Now you need to mention Daemon News, and the level of cooperation > between all three Free BSD's that makes this news magazine possible. > Don't forget to link it to http://www.daemonnews.org/ > Everyone is doing an awesome job. We just need to get out on the field and start playing instead of chering on the sidelines like a bunch of big breasted cheerleaders. ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 11:29PM up 1 day, 10 mins, 3 users, load averages: 0.86, 0.79, 0.78 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 00:06:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01280 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:06:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01267 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id AAA04489 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:05:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981106000533.A3901@best.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:05:33 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What can YOU do? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok folks, I think I need to rant here a bit: Who cares about what Microsoft thinks about Linux? Who cares about what ESR thinks about MS thinking about Linux? Who cares what Linus thinks about ESR thinking about MS thinking about Linux? Look. Right now we are ahead of Linux in terms of kernel development IMHO: we got 3.0 out already and their 2.2 is not even out yet. No, I am not comparing this by numbers, but by similar features. We have a head start with SMP, CAM, etc. We should and must take advantage of that. Our system is more stable, we got examples of it, and we must tell others about it. You want to do advocacy? Go for it. Just do it. Don't ask anyone permission - it is you and only YOU who can do it. IOW: go for it. For now - can we just end all of those MS and Linux threads? This is a FreeBSD list after all people. -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 00:12:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02064 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:12:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02056 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:12:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.05demon1 #1) id 0zbh0D-0003lE-00; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:12:17 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA01642; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:11:54 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02646; Fri, 6 Nov 98 08:11:52 GMT Message-Id: <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:11:26 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: insane@oneinsane.net Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> <19981105232738.C15866@oneinsane.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > > How hard would it be to make some small stickers of "Powered by FreeBSD" and > package them with the CD set. That way we have recognition on our machines. > And for people selling servers they can put them on there as well.. > Justa thought. Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers that appear on just about every new PC :-) > Ron > On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 02:52:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > "Powered by FreeBSD" > > > > Now that has a nice ring to it :-) > > > > > All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the > > > two computers in front of me. > > > > It would be a good start to have the stickers. This looks like a > > separate thread... > > > > Greg > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... > The InSaNe One rm -rf * > insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. > [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] > 11:23PM up 1 day, 4 mins, 3 users, load averages: 0.60, 0.88, 0.81 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- "Software is like sex, it's better when it's free" - Linus Torvalds. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath, Avon, England. Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 00:13:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02234 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:13:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02226 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.59.35]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA31E2; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:13:03 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981106000654.040b1e70@127.0.0.1> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:17:00 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, insane@oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:57 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > >>Most corporations only go by what Society shows as acceptable. So in saying >>that all Corporations have been uppity to the Free Software ideal. So Brett >>if you want to see anything happen get off your duff and do something. >>Don't >>complain if you aint doing anything. > > Hey -- over the last few months I've mentioned FreeBSD in more major venues > than anyone I know. But it's not enough for ME to do it; there should be > press releases. From the source. Whenever I get the chance of writing documentation in which I can and may name the Operating Systems we run, I always emphasize on the robusteness and reliability our firewalls and nameservers give us, which run on FreeBSD 2.2.5. So I am doing my bit around where I can at work, and also try to get more and more other people to try FreeBSD as well... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 01:36:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08129 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08099 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13984; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:31:13 GMT Message-ID: <3642C218.8770C6D1@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:32:08 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://ints.ml.org/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters CC: Gregory Sutter , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Status of Branding References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > Whistle InterJet > > ftp.cdrom.com :) > > Nokia VPN200 routing firewall modules > Pluto Space Anything FreeBSD in racks at internet exchanges :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 01:37:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08261 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:37:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08252 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) Received: from brunos-sun.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.185]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5/S-4.0) with SMTP; for ""; id JAA08434; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:36:32 GMT Received: locally by brunos-sun (SMI-8.6/QMW-client-3.2b); for "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG"; poster "scott"; id JAA07526; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:35:50 GMT Message-ID: <19981106093550.L11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:35:50 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations References: <3641FFD1.B98FA8DA@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3641FFD1.B98FA8DA@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:43:13PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:43:13PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > This thread serves to list products suggested for initial branding > under the FreeBSD Branding project logos. I've included three > categories, two for software and one for hardware. My hardware list > includes only hardware products that have some mention of FreeBSD > on their web pages, or are known to have supported FreeBSD development > in some way. Please feel free to object to nominations, but don't > remove them from the list. [..snip..] > Software category 2: (works with) > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux Corel WordPerfect for Linux (version 7 worked better on my BSD box than the Debian boxes at work, I assume the soon-to-be-released version 8 will work also). Scott. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 04:38:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24475 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:38:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail6.svr.freeserve.net (mail6.svr.freeserve.net [195.92.193.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24470 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:38:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-94.boron.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.2.94] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail6.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zbl9I-00088W-00 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:37:56 +0000 Message-ID: <3642ED87.C7BB5433@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:37:27 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Status of Branding References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:31:58PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > I don't think we've achieved quite this level of agreement on the hardware > > > side, but I think the software guidelines are pretty easy to adapt to > > > hardware products. I'm not sure there is any hardware that really > > > qualifies as "Designed for" or "Pure" FreeBSD, so perhaps we only apply > > > the lower logo to hardware? > > > > Whistle InterJet > > ftp.cdrom.com :) > > Nokia VPN200 routing firewall modules > Pluto Space > > I'm thinking of a "built with FreeBSD" logo for hw/sw products. Or, > dare I say it, "FreeBSD Inside"?!?!?! > > Sound good? bad? perverse? > If you did the "FreeBSD inside" one, I think the logo can't look like another we know ~ that might be pushing it a bit? just my 2 pfenig's worth -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 04:39:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24639 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24633 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.34]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5693; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:39:09 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36427713.295D836A@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:43:08 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Wes Peters Subject: Vendors (Re: Linksys supports us?) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Wes Peters wrote: > Licia wrote: >> >> I did not know this : >> >> http://www.linksys.com/support/solution/nos/freebsd.htm >> > > I just revisited the Linksys page to refresh my memory on how many of > their cards they mention on this page. They even cover the 10/100 > PC-Card! I feel pretty strongly this is a good candidate for our > hardware compatiblity logo, and that they will be willing to drop > it on this page. How about addressing hardware vendors and asking them to mention FreeBSD for the equipment we know we can support correctly or even better with their help (docs, specs, etc)? (sorry if this has already been done/addressed in the past) In my opinion some vendors would be proud to be able to say they are even supported with this or that OS. I as vendor would at least. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 04:39:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24676 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24647 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.34]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA961; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:39:12 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105234842.00aa25c0@genesis.ispace.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:43:12 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Wes Peters Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Drew Baxter wrote: > ---Cnet.com was dropped from the CC, didn't think it needed to go to > them?--- > At 09:44 PM 11/5/98 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >>Yes, Terry, you may go to the bathroom. Anyone else? I thought not. > Damn, can I have the pass when he gets back, Mr. Peters? Djeez guys, knock it off, choking in my tea here... =) >>So why, you must ask yourself, are we hearing about the "Linux threat" >>daily? Why is something that has NEVER before popped up on the radar >>screen suddenly become the "talk of the town?" Why do we suddenly >>have two memos leaked from one of the most paranoid organizations in >>the world, perhaps second only to Intel? Why indeed! What is Microsoft >>up to? > > I don't hear about it every day. But pretty close. I started to hear > about the Linux threat when I was reading up on Caldera's "You can use DR > DOS Under Windows 95, it's just Microsoft sucks" stuff. Good article btw. I still wonder why they choose the penguin and not the lemming as a mascot. >>And that is the point of all this, is it not: Microsoft cannot have >>a MONOPOLY on desktop computing because all those rabid Linux fans >>out there are giving away their system, right? > > Free is the universal solvent. You can't beat free. That's why you see > people (Netmarket for instance) giving away free Travel stuff and things > like that. Because if they give it away, you look at their site, maybe buy > something, sign up, etc. There is the prime that makes it all tick, the free emphasis. I used to be an Amiga user and loved the free effort available back then. And now FreeBSD... (Can we say Matthew Dillon?) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 04:39:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24719 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24691 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.34]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA43A6; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:39:16 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105185704.00a92400@genesis.ispace.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:43:15 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jason C. Wells" , Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Drew Baxter wrote: > At 04:44 PM 11/5/98 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Wakeup calls would be kinda neat if they were at the bottom of the thread, > thanks. > > Lets just say, it's not the cute penguin, that's for sure. Well, I always had a knack for the Daemon. Besides, to quote some Linux people: "We should start referring to processes which run in the background by their correct technical term... paenguins." They gotta be kidding ;) Actually come to think of it, 't would be better if they started to use paenguin instead of daemon, less desecrating for the poor Daemon. =D > You're right, it could happen, all of the tools come out for Linux... A > user is a user though, even if it's some 12 year old thinking he's K-R4D > and 31337 for using Linux and smurfing the crap out of people. > Unfortunately such tools don't usually compile on FreeBSD. Is that: a) because FreeBSD's architecture is better b) Linux' architecture is better c) the coders know jack of programming > I think that this whole certification idea is going to take off though. > Hopefully this will put FreeBSD on the board somewhere.. Either way, I'm > not planning on changing, and nor are many of the people that are on here > now. And we have DEMANDS of what we want to do with it.. There, there ye have it exactly. Linux is but a kernel surrounded by a chaos of distributions in which some good ideas emerge. FreeBSD is an entire Operating System effort. Can we even compare the two then? IMHO, yes and no. Yes: we can compare the different Linux distributions and the entire FreeBSD package. We can also compare the Linux kernel with the FreeBSD kernel. No, we cannot compare FreeBSD to Linux without specifying what we're comparing. The entire problem being is that without the influx Linux generated with regard to users and programs would the combined *BSD effort have come this close as well? Aren't we already benefitting from the attention Linux gets? Aren't we getting people who liked Linux but prefer more stability with regard to the entire package instead of the Mach 3 approach Linux and all it's distributions take? As I said before, I myself, the guru friend of mine, two associates of mine all prefer FreeBSD (*BSD) over Linux for reasons that can only be described as real life experience and preference for certain things. > So your wake-up call isn't valid. Too many people post to this list let > alone the other lists. Too many places are using FreeBSD technology > integrated into their solutions, and who knows how many people didn't > register when they installed it. That's a good thing that Wes started, to accumulate the effort out there. Linux users are so keen on quoting where, what and how Linux is used. I only know of the picoBSD project, the Whistle InterJet, Pluto Space and the yes.no website from Eivind (sorry if that is the Pluto Eivind, still working on my Norwegian ;) > If suddenly -hackers is getting 2 posts a day.. And most of the regular > posters in -advocacy somehow become dead.. THEN there is a problem. First > place I'm looking, is for that damned penguin.. ;-) Heh, did they ever name it? My guess would be, Lilo, for reasons that can only be described as meanspirited =) Oh and btw, "Linux is obsolete" -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 04:39:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24752 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24711 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.34]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA298E; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:39:19 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:43:18 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 2:24 PM -0700 11/5/98, Brett Glass wrote: >> Ahem! It's beginning to sound as if these Linux memos, leaked >> by Linux zealots, are a little too self-serving to be real. >> >> Maybe a word or two from the FreeBSD PR machine might be useful >> here. Oh, I forgot: FreeBSD doesn't DO PR. > > I'm hearing more about freebsd and openbsd than I used to. It > seems to me that things are improving. Let me stress yer point even more, when I was in university last year, all I heard about was Linux this, Linux that. Not surprisingly that many of us only knew of one open UNIX, namely Linux. Ye can understand my estactic cheer when I discovered FreeBSD at work along with a part-time/freelance UNIX guru here in the Netherlands. He taught me a lot about UNIX and got me hooked on FreeBSD by the sheer logic of it all... Needless to say FreeBSD is still way more logical than Linux and whenever I talk to old classmastes whom still use Linux I will voice my opinion about FreeBSD to them. > But even ignoring that, what *exactly* do you think the FreeBSD > project should do for this specific instance? Send email to > news.com saying "Oh yeah? We're best of breed, not Linux!". > news.com is just reporting this story, and it is a valid story > for them to report. We don't need to go running around after > every story about Linux and say "HEY, WE EXIST TOO, OVER HERE, > OVER HERE, PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!!". We need to write our own > stories, and make our own case for our own project. No, yer right, the least thing we want to achieve is being viewed as a bunch of whiners who think they are getting behind in PR with regard to Linux. > Seems to me that several people have been encouraging FreeBSD > users to do just that. Write our own stories, talking about > our own goals. Running after every Linux story just makes us > look like we don't have anything of our own to say, other than > we want to get in on Linux's fame. I think that's the wrong > kind of PR to have. Indeed, Linux' history != *BSD history. In fact we predate Linux. On a side note, isn't it very handy to unite the three free BSD's by means of a bar on the homepage and providing a quick jump point to those sites? FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD Just a thought, --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 04:39:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA24758 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24733 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.34]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2190; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:39:22 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36426366.3485FF76@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:43:21 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Wes Peters Subject: RE: Other "brands" (not: FreeBSD Branding project names) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Andrzej Bialecki Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Wes Peters wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> >> Tsk, tsk >> >> forgetting all about picoBSD eh? ;) >> > > Yes and no. picoBSD is more a "variant" of FreeBSD than an application > of it. It is really a special case, more like combined hw/sw products > based on FreeBSD, like the InterJet and Pluto Space, which *I* think > are just as cool as can be. And a damn fine variant it is and will be =) Sorry, but yer vision of picoBSD is slightly out of sync of what we're trying to achieve. Surely picoBSD (Andrzej is still keen on PicoBSD ;) will target for embedded hardware, but in fact as the project is unvolving we're going towards a modular package which can be used with embedded devices as well as yer average 386, 486, old pentium with little memory use. But mayhaps Andrzej can provide us with the latest perspective of what picoBSD will be... > Maybe we need to come up with a special category for these: "FreeBSD > Inside" or "Built on FreeBSD." Anything built using picoBSD would > obviously qualify. I think stuff like the Whistle InterJet and the Pluto Space are more a hw/sw combination. picoBSD is a full sibling of FreeBSD, shall we say the little brother/sister? =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 04:43:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25515 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:43:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA25510 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (IDENT:WHAT_THE_HELL_YOU_LOOKING_AT_@d60-147.leach.ucdavis.edu [169.237.60.147]) by relay.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA05627; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:43:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@dragon.nuxi.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA27796; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:43:05 GMT (envelope-from obrien) Message-ID: <19981106044305.J23818@nuxi.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 04:43:05 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <19981104214106.45111@nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin on Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 02:12:02PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > (Do I dare?) In contrast with the state of the Linux universe, > there few enough BSD's that I can count them on one hand. it is diffucult > to recall all of the different Linux distributions I have seen or > encountered. There's Slackware, Cladera, Red Had, Yaggsdrill(sp?), > Debian, etc... And if we look back 5 years for Linux too, we also get SuSE, SLS, Bogus -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 06:46:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06887 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:46:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06882 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:46:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.59.83]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA284D; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:46:25 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19981106044305.J23818@nuxi.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:50:24 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "David O'Brien" Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Adrian Filipi-Martin Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 David O'Brien wrote: >> (Do I dare?) In contrast with the state of the Linux universe, >> there few enough BSD's that I can count them on one hand. it is diffucult >> to recall all of the different Linux distributions I have seen or >> encountered. There's Slackware, Cladera, Red Had, Yaggsdrill(sp?), >> Debian, etc... Caldera, Red Hat and Yggdrasil > And if we look back 5 years for Linux too, we also get > > SuSE, SLS, Bogus Stampede. But anyways, that doesn't all matter ;) Fact is, how can we beat all of those distributions again and again? What makes Linux, apart from the attention it now gets, so attractive to newbies? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 06:47:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA07022 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:47:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA07003 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id GAA02381 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:46:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981106064654.B1890@oneinsane.net> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:46:54 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> <19981105232738.C15866@oneinsane.net> <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 08:11:26AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark I am a subscriber to the CD SET < Wonder where they are? > So you are saying they just started this. TIA Ron On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 08:11:26AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > > > > How hard would it be to make some small stickers of "Powered by FreeBSD" and > > package them with the CD set. That way we have recognition on our machines. > > And for people selling servers they can put them on there as well.. > > Justa thought. > > Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small > sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless > they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for > covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers > that appear on just about every new PC :-) > > > Ron > > On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 02:52:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > "Powered by FreeBSD" > > > > > > Now that has a nice ring to it :-) > > > > > > > All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the > > > > two computers in front of me. > > > > > > It would be a good start to have the stickers. This looks like a > > > separate thread... > > > > > > Greg > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... > > The InSaNe One rm -rf * > > insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. > > [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] > > 11:23PM up 1 day, 4 mins, 3 users, load averages: 0.60, 0.88, 0.81 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > -- > "Software is like sex, it's better when it's free" - Linus Torvalds. > > Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. > Bath, Avon, England. Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 6:45AM up 1 day, 7:26, 3 users, load averages: 1.16, 0.98, 0.88 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 07:57:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14940 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 07:57:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.scancall.no (www.scancall.no [195.139.183.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA14935 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 07:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marius.Bendiksen@scancall.no) Received: from super2.langesund.scancall.no [195.139.183.29] by www with smtp id JTDKXFEJ; Fri, 06 Nov 98 15:57:16 GMT (PowerWeb version 4.04r6) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981106165715.0098f710@mail.scancall.no> X-Sender: Marius@mail.scancall.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:57:15 +0100 To: insane@oneinsane.net From: Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy In-Reply-To: <19981106064654.B1890@oneinsane.net> References: <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> <19981105232738.C15866@oneinsane.net> <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Would it be possible to order sticker sheets by themselves, and/or ordering additional sheets with the CDs ? --- Marius Bendiksen, IT-Trainee, ScanCall AS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 08:10:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16950 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16898 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01536; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:10:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Mark Ovens cc: insane@oneinsane.net, FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:11:26 GMT." <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:10:12 -0800 Message-ID: <1532.910368612@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small > sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless > they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for > covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers > that appear on just about every new PC :-) Yep, and added to this we now (as of yesterday) also give you a "Powered by FreeBSD" aluminized case plate for that little empty square* on your PC. :-) - Jordan * If something else is already there, it can be easily prised off. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 08:11:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17153 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:11:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17140 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:11:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14000; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:11:29 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981106161128.B13656@helan.org> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:11:28 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: insane@oneinsane.net Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> <19981105232738.C15866@oneinsane.net> <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> <19981106064654.B1890@oneinsane.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981106064654.B1890@oneinsane.net>; from Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 06:46:54AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 06:46:54AM -0800, Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > Mark I am a subscriber to the CD SET < Wonder where they are? > If you didn't request otherwise, you won't get sent 3.00 automatically, as was explained in the leaflet sent with 2.2.7 (which didn't, in my case, come with any stickers). Personally I didn't ask for 3.0 as I ordered a 3.0-snap which didn't materialise so now I'm wishing I had...:( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 08:17:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17998 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:17:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17990 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:17:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA06654; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:17:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981106081703.A5679@oneinsane.net> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:17:03 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> <1532.910368612@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <1532.910368612@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 08:10:12AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can you make sure there is at least three in my order ;-) - Ron On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 08:10:12AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small > > sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless > > they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for > > covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers > > that appear on just about every new PC :-) > > Yep, and added to this we now (as of yesterday) also give you a > "Powered by FreeBSD" aluminized case plate for that little empty > square* on your PC. :-) > > - Jordan > > * If something else is already there, it can be easily prised off. :) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 8:16AM up 1 day, 8:57, 5 users, load averages: 1.50, 0.98, 0.77 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 08:23:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19223 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:23:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19213 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:23:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA06806; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:23:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981106082300.B5679@oneinsane.net> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:23:00 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: Stuart Henderson Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> <19981105232738.C15866@oneinsane.net> <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> <19981106064654.B1890@oneinsane.net> <19981106161128.B13656@helan.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981106161128.B13656@helan.org>; from Stuart Henderson on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 04:11:28PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks for refreshing me. I thought I selected #3 but I didn't just ratified that problem. TIA Ron On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 04:11:28PM +0000, Stuart Henderson wrote: > On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 06:46:54AM -0800, Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > > Mark I am a subscriber to the CD SET < Wonder where they are? > > > If you didn't request otherwise, you won't get sent 3.00 automatically, > as was explained in the leaflet sent with 2.2.7 (which didn't, in my case, > come with any stickers). > > Personally I didn't ask for 3.0 as I ordered a 3.0-snap which didn't > materialise so now I'm wishing I had...:( -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 8:19AM up 1 day, 9 hrs, 5 users, load averages: 0.98, 0.90, 0.77 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 08:35:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22057 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22052 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.05demon1 #1) id 0zborD-0002xC-00; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:35:31 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA00601; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:34:57 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15444; Fri, 6 Nov 98 16:34:53 GMT Message-Id: <36432512.DE3A57FE@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:34:26 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) References: <1532.910368612@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small > > sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless > > they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for > > covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers > > that appear on just about every new PC :-) > > Yep, and added to this we now (as of yesterday) also give you a > "Powered by FreeBSD" aluminized case plate for that little empty > square* on your PC. :-) > Excellent, I look forward to 2.2.8 arriving :-) > - Jordan > > * If something else is already there, it can be easily prised off. :) I've put one of the stickers there. Hmm, wonder how good the adhesive is? -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. This is what caused the problem in the first place. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath, Avon, England. Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 08:44:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23315 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23309 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01770; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:44:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Stuart Henderson cc: insane@oneinsane.net, FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:11:28 GMT." <19981106161128.B13656@helan.org> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:44:36 -0800 Message-ID: <1767.910370676@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Personally I didn't ask for 3.0 as I ordered a 3.0-snap which didn't > materialise so now I'm wishing I had...:( Sorry, I've discontinued the snaps until 3.0 moves off the main branch and there's something to honestly make snapshots of. 3.0.1 is due in February so there's really no time to make a snapshot of -current that wouldn't be quickly outdated by the next -release anyway. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 08:56:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24732 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:56:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scribe.intop.net (scribe.intop.net [206.156.254.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24704 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:56:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from smiledon@intop.net) From: smiledon@intop.net Received: from pc4.intop.net (pc4.intop.net [206.156.254.247]) by scribe.intop.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id KAA15035 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:55:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199811061655.KAA15035@scribe.intop.net> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:57:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) In-reply-to: <3642AF2E.C12CB65@uk.radan.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Date sent: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:11:26 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd To: insane@oneinsane.net Copies to: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) > Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > > > > How hard would it be to make some small stickers of "Powered by FreeBSD" > > and package them with the CD set. That way we have recognition on our > > machines. And for people selling servers they can put them on there as > > well.. Justa thought. > > Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small > sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless > they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for > covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers that > appear on just about every new PC :-) > > > Ron > > On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 02:52:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > "Powered by FreeBSD" > > > > > > Now that has a nice ring to it :-) > > > > > > > All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the > > > > two computers in front of me. > > > > > > It would be a good start to have the stickers. This looks like a > > > separate thread... > > > > > > Greg I think a nice sticker of our mascot with 'Powered by FreeBSD' written underneath would be a nice addition to the front of my machines. Including these stickers with WC's CDROMS is a great idea, IMHO. Yet another suggestion: What about 'Screams on FreeBSD'? :-) -Charlie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 09:36:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01592 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:36:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail4.svr.freeserve.net (mail4.svr.freeserve.net [195.92.193.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01579 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:36:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-87.nitrogen.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.3.87] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail4.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zbpo2-0001z2-00; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:36:18 +0000 Message-ID: <36433383.CA578331@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:36:03 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smiledon@intop.net CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) References: <199811061655.KAA15035@scribe.intop.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG smiledon@intop.net wrote: > > Date sent: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:11:26 +0000 > From: Mark Ovens > Organization: Radan Computational Ltd > To: insane@oneinsane.net > Copies to: FreeBSD-advocacy > Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) > > > Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > > > > > > How hard would it be to make some small stickers of "Powered by FreeBSD" > > > and package them with the CD set. That way we have recognition on our > > > machines. And for people selling servers they can put them on there as > > > well.. Justa thought. > > > > Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small > > sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless > > they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for > > covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers that > > appear on just about every new PC :-) > > > > > Ron > > > On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 02:52:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > "Powered by FreeBSD" > > > > > > > > Now that has a nice ring to it :-) > > > > > > > > > All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the > > > > > two computers in front of me. > > > > > > > > It would be a good start to have the stickers. This looks like a > > > > separate thread... > > > > > > > > Greg > > I think a nice sticker of our mascot with 'Powered by FreeBSD' > written underneath would be a nice addition to the front of my > machines. Including these stickers with WC's CDROMS is a great idea, > IMHO. > > Yet another suggestion: What about 'Screams on FreeBSD'? Sounds like a Linux gag-bomb waiting to go off :-() IMHO > > :-) > -Charlie -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 10:25:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07931 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07924 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26431; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:23:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:23:04 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What can YOU do? In-Reply-To: <19981106000533.A3901@best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > We have a head start with SMP, CAM, etc. We should and > must take advantage of that. Our system is more stable, we got > examples of it, and we must tell others about it. Exactly. > You want to do advocacy? Go for it. Just do it. Don't ask anyone > permission - it is you and only YOU who can do it. IOW: go for it. And if you have a PERSONAL example where things have worked out for you well w/ FreeBSD (or Open or Net) please write it up and send it in to Daemon News - we had one this month and I have another on tap for next month. Send this, or any BSD-related article, to article@daemonnews.org Brett ****************************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ "There is something uncanny in the noiseless rush of the cyclist, as he comes into view, passes by, and disappears." - Popular Science, 1891 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 10:33:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09542 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09535 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:33:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (bangor-1.ime.net [209.90.195.58]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA18526; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:33:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981106133040.00b72f00@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:31:04 -0500 To: insane@oneinsane.net From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy In-Reply-To: <19981105232738.C15866@oneinsane.net> References: <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3641FD2E.B03C4D7E@softweyr.com> <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36426F85.A3FCE875@softweyr.com> <19981106143539.B1555@freebie.lemis.com> <3642788A.59BC64E6@softweyr.com> <19981106145202.C1555@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:27 PM 11/5/98 -0800, Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: >How hard would it be to make some small stickers of "Powered by FreeBSD" and >package them with the CD set. That way we have recognition on our machines. >And for people selling servers they can put them on there as well.. >Justa thought. >Ron >On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 02:52:02PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> > "Powered by FreeBSD" >> >> Now that has a nice ring to it :-) >> >> > All we gotta do is get the vendors to put the stickers on, like the >> > two computers in front of me. >> >> It would be a good start to have the stickers. This looks like a >> separate thread... >> >> Greg > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... >The InSaNe One rm -rf * >insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void >------------------------------------------------------------------- >It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. >[----------------------------System Info---------------------------] >11:23PM up 1 day, 4 mins, 3 users, load averages: 0.60, 0.88, 0.81 > Hey I got stickers with my FreeBSD t-shirt last week.. They have ones that'll fit in the 1x1 on the generic cases and stuff like that. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 10:38:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10520 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10493 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id KAA18588; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id KAA21050; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:36:25 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id LAA04960; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:36:24 -0700 Message-ID: <364341A8.5D32F671@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:36:24 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Berlin CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel Berlin wrote: > > > None of this has anything to do with the timing of this memo, where > > it showed up, or the bare fact that Microsoft is just not a "leaking" > > culture. Their product plans and market research are among the most > > closely held secrets on this planet, and I am highly suspicious of > > the number of holes that have opened up in Redmond in the last few > > weeks. > Keep in mind as school progresses, and winter sets in, a lot of interns > completely finish up (they tend to start school late, or just go second > semester). And to be involved in FreeBSD, Linux, or (gasp!) BeOS, right?!?! I know all of this, and I also know the "culture of secrecy" that Microsoft fosters; I am an ex-Intel employee after all. Microsoft DOES participate in a well-organized conspiracy to get their software onto every computer in the world, it's called "the Marketing Department." It's obviously very effective, because they haven't won their current sales figures through technological superiority; if that were the buying criterion we'd all be running Aegis on HP hardware. I was attempting to explain to FreeBSD Advocates that getting all excited about the "Halloween Documents" is not going to do them any good. The best plan is to come up with innovative ways to get FreeBSD, with its generally good reputation for reliability and quality, in front of MORE eyeballs. Thanks for your input, though, you do help keep this from turning into another X-files episode. We'll probably even give you commit privs if you're willing to have your implant removed. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 10:45:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11209 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11192 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:45:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (bangor-1.ime.net [209.90.195.58]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA18539; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:45:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981106133411.00b1a750@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:43:02 -0500 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jason C. Wells" , Brett Glass In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981105185704.00a92400@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ---Yanked my own original comments out and placed new ones in hopes to shorten--- At 01:43 PM 11/6/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >Well, I always had a knack for the Daemon. Besides, to quote some Linux >people: > >"We should start referring to processes which run in the background by their >correct technical term... paenguins." Lets call them 'Crap Processes' with no controlling terminal :P >They gotta be kidding ;) >Actually come to think of it, 't would be better if they started to use >paenguin instead of daemon, less desecrating for the poor Daemon. =D > >> You're right, it could happen, all of the tools come out for Linux... A >> user is a user though, even if it's some 12 year old thinking he's K-R4D >> and 31337 for using Linux and smurfing the crap out of people. >> Unfortunately such tools don't usually compile on FreeBSD. > >Is that: > >a) because FreeBSD's architecture is better >b) Linux' architecture is better >c) the coders know jack of programming > Probably a little of each. I don't use Linux enough to give a crap, I nuked my box.. I don't like how there is like 5 major distribs for Linux, and there's 1 for FreeBSD. There should be one way of doing things, and it should be the RIGHT WAY.. Probably that'd be Red Hat in the case of the Linux Escapade.. FreeBSD has 1 distrib, and it works, so who's the crackerass that needs 5 distribs for the same thing? >There, there ye have it exactly. Linux is but a kernel surrounded by a chaos >of distributions in which some good ideas emerge. FreeBSD is an entire >Operating System effort. Can we even compare the two then? IMHO, yes and no. >Yes: we can compare the different Linux distributions and the entire FreeBSD >package. We can also compare the Linux kernel with the FreeBSD kernel. No, we >cannot compare FreeBSD to Linux without specifying what we're comparing. You're right, the packaging makes the OS. Noone cares about the core (nucleus) but moreso about the surrounding architecture.. Which is probably why Windows is bundled with a bunch of software generally. >The entire problem being is that without the influx Linux generated with >regard to users and programs would the combined *BSD effort have come this >close as well? Aren't we already benefitting from the attention Linux gets? >Aren't we getting people who liked Linux but prefer more stability with >regard to the entire package instead of the Mach 3 approach Linux and all >it's distributions take? OSS in general is getting the attention because of the Linux escapade.. I don't think saying that Linux itself is a market loss for Microsoft.. They should have said "OSS is causing loss for Microsoft" and then zoomed in on the key packages that are affecting them the MOST.. >As I said before, I myself, the guru friend of mine, two associates of mine >all prefer FreeBSD (*BSD) over Linux for reasons that can only be described >as real life experience and preference for certain things. Friends of mine are all Linux heads, now suddenly they want to switch.. I'm like "Why?" and they can't answer.. Everyone wants to be somebody I guess. >That's a good thing that Wes started, to accumulate the effort out there. >Linux users are so keen on quoting where, what and how Linux is used. I only >know of the picoBSD project, the Whistle InterJet, Pluto Space and the yes.no >website from Eivind (sorry if that is the Pluto Eivind, still working on my >Norwegian ;) And all those are accomplishments, definitely.. Think this though.. U-Haul has been around for years (US and Canada only), and they never once put an ad on TV.. That's a common name in a household, "Well you could get a U-Haul and move it..".. Sometimes you can generate better and more publicity from word of mouth then you ever could with these speils in CNet.. >Heh, did they ever name it? My guess would be, Lilo, for reasons that can >only be described as meanspirited =) Not sure :) > >Oh and btw, "Linux is obsolete" -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum Obsolete stuff usually never gets updated.. As long as there is revision, there will never be total obsoletion... >--- >Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai >asmodai(at)wxs.nl >Junior Network/Security Specialist >FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 10:48:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11716 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:48:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11709 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (bangor-1.ime.net [209.90.195.58]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id NAA18544; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:47:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981106134539.009875e0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:45:49 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mark Ovens From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Cc: insane@oneinsane.net, FreeBSD-advocacy In-Reply-To: <1532.910368612@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:10 AM 11/6/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Place an order for something FreeBSD from WC and you'll get a small >> sheet of 11 stickers of various shapes and sizes and colours (unless >> they've none left ), including 3 25mm square ones that are perfect for >> covering up those "Intel Inside" & "Designed for Windows" stickers >> that appear on just about every new PC :-) > >Yep, and added to this we now (as of yesterday) also give you a >"Powered by FreeBSD" aluminized case plate for that little empty >square* on your PC. :-) > >- Jordan > I want, I want, I want! :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 10:52:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12271 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:52:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12266 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:52:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02744; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Drew Baxter cc: Mark Ovens , insane@oneinsane.net, FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:45:49 EST." <4.1.19981106134539.009875e0@genesis.ispace.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:52:49 -0800 Message-ID: <2740.910378369@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I want, I want, I want! :-) OK, I just got the scoop on ordering these things from our pres.: If you send Walnut Creek CDROM $5 to cover shipping and handling, they will ship you up to 10 stickers and, I think (still not confirmed yet but a good possibility) a case plate. The "up to 10" clause there is also WC's way of saying "we're doing this for PR purposes and the $5 just keeps us from losing too much money at it - please don't ask for more stickers than you actually need." As to how you get the $5 to them, I've no idea - I guess they process $5 orders by credit card or the usual means, so just go via orders@cdrom.com or www.cdrom.com as normal and ask for "FreeBSD stickers" (with count). The same, BTW, is true of all FreeBSD product orders. If you want extra stickers (up to 10) with your CD or T-shirt, just say so in the order. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 11:08:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14632 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14613 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike.jeays@statcan.ca) Received: from stcinet (stcinet.statcan.ca [142.206.128.146]) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.9.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA10180 For ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03964; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:12:07 -0500; sender mike.jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from bora2.statcan.ca (bora2.statcan.ca [142.206.248.251]) by smtpshb.statcan.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28756 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:11:12 -0500 Received: from smtpsha.statcan.ca by bora2.statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA06028 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:17:34 -0500 ; sender mike.jeays@a.statcan.ca Received: from imap1a.statcan.ca (imap1a.statcan.ca [142.205.234.34]) by smtpsha.statcan.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08911 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:55:30 -0500 X-Internal-ID: 3641B2960000272A Received: from a.statcan.ca (142.205.168.21) by imap1a.statcan.ca (NPlex 2.0.112) for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:46:56 -0500 Message-ID: <364337A8.D9B5C992@a.statcan.ca> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:53:45 -0500 From: "Mike.Jeays" Organization: Statistics Canada/Statistique Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On advocating FreeBSD and the Halloween memo... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Why does Linux get more attention than FreeBSD? I think it is a VHS/Beta avalanche, which is caused by positive feedback in a situation of unstable equilibrium. A pin balanced on its point falls in essentially a random direction. VHS won even though it was the inferior product. Linux is getting the attention at the moment, at the very moment that there is a groundswell against monopolistic practices by Microsoft. Microsoft is in its current dominant position for similar reasons; partly because it has bundled disparate items together to lock out competitors, but partly because its very success has caused others to jump on the bandwagon. Now a new niche has opened up for an alternative operating system, not least because Microsoft is beginning to cash in on its de-facto monopoly by raising licence fees. For many corporations, there is seen to be no alternative, and for private individuals, costs are becoming prohibitive. One of the things that is needed is a free equivalent to Office 97. A workstation equipped with easy to use email, net browsing, word-processing, spreadsheet and presentation-preparer forms the core of many office needs. The more it uses open file formats, the better. FreeBSD's ability to run Linux binaries is an essential asset, in my opinion, so that the two free OSs can share a base of applications. I would simply hate to see FreeBSD go the way of Beta videotapes, and I think that the present resentment against Microsoft gives us an excellent opportunity. Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 06-Nov-98 David O'Brien wrote: > >> (Do I dare?) In contrast with the state of the Linux universe, > >> there few enough BSD's that I can count them on one hand. it is diffucult > >> to recall all of the different Linux distributions I have seen or > >> encountered. There's Slackware, Cladera, Red Had, Yaggsdrill(sp?), > >> Debian, etc... > > Caldera, Red Hat and Yggdrasil > > > And if we look back 5 years for Linux too, we also get > > > > SuSE, SLS, Bogus > > Stampede. > > But anyways, that doesn't all matter ;) > > Fact is, how can we beat all of those distributions again and again? What > makes Linux, apart from the attention it now gets, so attractive to newbies? > > --- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai > asmodai(at)wxs.nl > Junior Network/Security Specialist > FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 11:08:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14665 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14650 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA32380; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:43 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA07286; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:08:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What can YOU do? In-Reply-To: <19981106000533.A3901@best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > For now - can we just end all of those MS and Linux threads? This > is a FreeBSD list after all people. Hear, Hear! Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 11:09:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14904 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:09:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14892 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:09:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA30530; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:09:44 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA07262; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:09:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:09:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Vendors (Re: Linksys supports us?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >How about addressing hardware vendors and asking them to mention FreeBSD for >the equipment we know we can support correctly or even better with their help >(docs, specs, etc)? (sorry if this has already been done/addressed in the >past) The branding effort will support this idea. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 11:46:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19415 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:46:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19347 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.164]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA21C0; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:45:44 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981106133411.00b1a750@genesis.ispace.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 20:49:46 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Drew Baxter wrote: > At 01:43 PM 11/6/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >>There, there ye have it exactly. Linux is but a kernel surrounded by a chaos >>of distributions in which some good ideas emerge. FreeBSD is an entire >>Operating System effort. Can we even compare the two then? IMHO, yes and no. >>Yes: we can compare the different Linux distributions and the entire FreeBSD >>package. We can also compare the Linux kernel with the FreeBSD kernel. No, we >>cannot compare FreeBSD to Linux without specifying what we're comparing. > > You're right, the packaging makes the OS. Noone cares about the core > (nucleus) but moreso about the surrounding architecture.. Which is probably > why Windows is bundled with a bunch of software generally. I very much care about the nucleus, that's why we also have nuclean members, errr, _core_ members =) >>As I said before, I myself, the guru friend of mine, two associates of mine >>all prefer FreeBSD (*BSD) over Linux for reasons that can only be described >>as real life experience and preference for certain things. > > Friends of mine are all Linux heads, now suddenly they want to switch.. I'm > like "Why?" and they can't answer.. Everyone wants to be somebody I guess. The term lemming applies... ;) >>That's a good thing that Wes started, to accumulate the effort out there. >>Linux users are so keen on quoting where, what and how Linux is used. I only >>know of the picoBSD project, the Whistle InterJet, Pluto Space and the yes.no >>website from Eivind (sorry if that is the Pluto Eivind, still working on my >>Norwegian ;) > > And all those are accomplishments, definitely.. Think this though.. U-Haul > has been around for years (US and Canada only), and they never once put an > ad on TV.. That's a common name in a household, "Well you could get a > U-Haul and move it..".. Sometimes you can generate better and more > publicity from word of mouth then you ever could with these speils in CNet.. I came to FreeBSD by word of mouth... (sees Eivind and Jordan still regretting the day I started posting ;) >>Oh and btw, "Linux is obsolete" -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum > > Obsolete stuff usually never gets updated.. As long as there is revision, > there will never be total obsoletion... Sorry, ye obviously might not know the background, and ye couldn't since it isn't evident in one sentence =) Andrew and Linus were discussing kernels and Linus insisted on using a monolithic kernel anno 1991, Andy simply said that that was obsolete (take a look at Amoebe and Mach). --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 11:53:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20656 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:53:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20651 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4025.ime.net [209.90.195.35]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id OAA18647; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:52:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981106144821.00ab3dc0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:50:44 -0500 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981106133411.00b1a750@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:49 PM 11/6/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >On 06-Nov-98 Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 01:43 PM 11/6/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>>There, there ye have it exactly. Linux is but a kernel surrounded by a chaos >>>of distributions in which some good ideas emerge. FreeBSD is an entire >>>Operating System effort. Can we even compare the two then? IMHO, yes and no. >>>Yes: we can compare the different Linux distributions and the entire FreeBSD >>>package. We can also compare the Linux kernel with the FreeBSD kernel. No, we >>>cannot compare FreeBSD to Linux without specifying what we're comparing. >> >> You're right, the packaging makes the OS. Noone cares about the core >> (nucleus) but moreso about the surrounding architecture.. Which is probably >> why Windows is bundled with a bunch of software generally. > >I very much care about the nucleus, that's why we also have nuclean members, >errr, _core_ members =) > Yeah but there's other people applying the rest of the OS. I just don't see Linux's approach 'Build a kernel, let everyone else build the rest around it".. >>>As I said before, I myself, the guru friend of mine, two associates of mine >>>all prefer FreeBSD (*BSD) over Linux for reasons that can only be described >>>as real life experience and preference for certain things. >> >> Friends of mine are all Linux heads, now suddenly they want to switch.. I'm >> like "Why?" and they can't answer.. Everyone wants to be somebody I guess. > >The term lemming applies... ;) > I think that'd be an appropriate Linux 3.0 logo whenever it comes out *eg*. >>>That's a good thing that Wes started, to accumulate the effort out there. >>>Linux users are so keen on quoting where, what and how Linux is used. I only >>>know of the picoBSD project, the Whistle InterJet, Pluto Space and the yes.no >>>website from Eivind (sorry if that is the Pluto Eivind, still working on my >>>Norwegian ;) >> >> And all those are accomplishments, definitely.. Think this though.. U-Haul >> has been around for years (US and Canada only), and they never once put an >> ad on TV.. That's a common name in a household, "Well you could get a >> U-Haul and move it..".. Sometimes you can generate better and more >> publicity from word of mouth then you ever could with these speils in CNet.. > >I came to FreeBSD by word of mouth... (sees Eivind and Jordan still regretting >the day I started posting ;) > Word of mouth is the way to go though.. Ads are generally biased or created by people that probably don't even use the stuff.. >>>Oh and btw, "Linux is obsolete" -- Andrew S. Tanenbaum >> >> Obsolete stuff usually never gets updated.. As long as there is revision, >> there will never be total obsoletion... > >Sorry, ye obviously might not know the background, and ye couldn't since it >isn't evident in one sentence =) > >Andrew and Linus were discussing kernels and Linus insisted on using a >monolithic kernel anno 1991, Andy simply said that that was obsolete (take a >look at Amoebe and Mach). Mach is rather obsolete.. but for some reason Tenon Intersystems (www.tenon.com) decided to make some sort of a Mach+BSD4.4 type thing called MachTen for Macubators.. er uh. .Mac Users. > >--- >Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai >asmodai(at)wxs.nl >Junior Network/Security Specialist >FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 12:01:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22203 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:01:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22174 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.164]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2CB6; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:01:28 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2740.910378369@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 21:05:30 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy , insane@oneinsane.net, Mark Ovens , Drew Baxter Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I want, I want, I want! :-) > The same, BTW, is true of all FreeBSD product orders. If you want > extra stickers (up to 10) with your CD or T-shirt, just say so in the > order. OMG, the heart of us 'nerds' jump for joy, LOL! =) I have to say though it's cute to have them sticking around the office... Them case plates sound coolies for our boxen: Devil, Barkley, KillBill, FreeBee and DieHard ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 12:52:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00308 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:52:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00164 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:51:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA19806; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA24829; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:48:19 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA06136; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:48:18 -0700 Message-ID: <36436092.CFD40CDA@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:48:18 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Mitchell CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations References: <3641FFD1.B98FA8DA@softweyr.com> <19981106093550.L11520@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Scott Mitchell wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:43:13PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > This thread serves to list products suggested for initial branding > > under the FreeBSD Branding project logos. I've included three > > categories, two for software and one for hardware. My hardware list > > includes only hardware products that have some mention of FreeBSD > > on their web pages, or are known to have supported FreeBSD development > > in some way. Please feel free to object to nominations, but don't > > remove them from the list. > [..snip..] > > > Software category 2: (works with) > > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux > > Corel WordPerfect for Linux (version 7 worked better on my BSD box than the > Debian boxes at work, I assume the soon-to-be-released version 8 will work > also). Thanks, Scott. Please let me try this ONE MORE TIME. The idea here is to build a list of applications, in an ongoing mail thread. PLEASE EVERYONE: don't delete the rest of the thread. Add your item to the appropriate spot on the list. I know it'll consume a little bit more bandwidth, but it will also allow us to see the list grow. I'll try to poke through the archives this afternoon and put the list back together, but you all are sure making this harder than it needs to be. Maybe we should just put up a web page, with an "add an application" form for each list? -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 14:23:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12263 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12241 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:23:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4025.ime.net [209.90.195.35]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id RAA18764; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:23:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981106172008.00aa7c90@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:21:18 -0500 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD stickers (was: Status of Branding) Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy , insane@oneinsane.net, Mark Ovens In-Reply-To: References: <2740.910378369@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:05 PM 11/6/98 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >On 06-Nov-98 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> I want, I want, I want! :-) > >> The same, BTW, is true of all FreeBSD product orders. If you want >> extra stickers (up to 10) with your CD or T-shirt, just say so in the >> order. > >OMG, the heart of us 'nerds' jump for joy, LOL! =) > >I have to say though it's cute to have them sticking around the office... > >Them case plates sound coolies for our boxen: > >Devil, Barkley, KillBill, FreeBee and DieHard ;) > >--- >Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai >asmodai(at)wxs.nl >Junior Network/Security Specialist >FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... Hey that'll be enough out of you :P I may be a FreeBSD user and a network admin, but I'm also 17 and I like my stickers, K? :-) Nah I just want to stop people asking "Is that running NT?" hehe.. I'll stick em on the NT box as well, they won't know the diff.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 14:25:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12695 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:25:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12688 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:25:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA26024; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:25:17 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id OAA12769; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:25:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:24:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Wes Peters cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: NOT FreeBSD Branding project recommendations In-Reply-To: <36436092.CFD40CDA@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >Maybe we should just put up a web page, with an "add an application" >form for each list? I don't know. It looks like the input has tapered off. I did not even spur a flame when I asked people to get busy. You did say that (loosely) "When input tapers off I will collate the list and put it to a vote." You have taken the lead. This may seem undemocratic. I propose to you that collate the list (of branding names at least) now put it to a vote and keep the current momentum. You can't please all of the people all of the time. This effort is unlike "-hackers" where people have technical reasons for doing things. This one effort can set a precedent for -advocacy. Once a precedent is established, the infrastructure is in place, then we can really make it happen. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 14:48:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15102 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:48:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15092 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:48:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.164]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5BA8; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:47:37 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:51:40 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: RE: NOT FreeBSD Branding project recommendations Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy , FreeBSD-advocacy , Wes Peters Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 06-Nov-98 Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > >>Maybe we should just put up a web page, with an "add an application" >>form for each list? > > I don't know. It looks like the input has tapered off. I did not even spur > a flame when I asked people to get busy. You did say that (loosely) "When > input tapers off I will collate the list and put it to a vote." > > You have taken the lead. This may seem undemocratic. I propose to you that > collate the list (of branding names at least) now put it to a vote and > keep the current momentum. Problem being that almost everything is ported at this point... That already needs us to think more carefully ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist FreeBSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 15:14:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19073 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19062 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:14:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA20812; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA27356; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:14:06 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA07463; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:14:05 -0700 Message-ID: <364382BD.AEC35B90@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:14:05 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: NOT FreeBSD Branding project recommendations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Maybe we should just put up a web page, with an "add an application" > >form for each list? > > I don't know. It looks like the input has tapered off. I did not even spur > a flame when I asked people to get busy. You did say that (loosely) "When > input tapers off I will collate the list and put it to a vote." I don't think it's even had a chance to START. Maybe I'm drastically overestimating the size of -advocacy, but we've only had 6 or 7 replies so far, and I'd hate to cut it off until after the weekend. If the reply rate doesn't pick up over the weekend, I'll summarize the results and post them here. In the meantime, I've got an hour or so this afternoon; I'll go try to put our current list together and post it back, so others can (hopefully) add to it in a neat, orderly manner. > You have taken the lead. This may seem undemocratic. I propose to you that > collate the list (of branding names at least) now put it to a vote and > keep the current momentum. Yeah, but reluctantly, and only because everyone else here has such a proclivity to "tangetize." If we ever want this discussion to go somewhere, somebody has to keep kicking it back on track, and you're the only help I've had. Which, by the way, makes you the semi-official deputy logo advocate. Or is that vice-advocate? ;^) (Jim Pumpelly, my great friend and boss at GTE, would be ROTFL to hear *me* accuse others of "tangetizing," he insists he made up the word to describe me. ;^) > You can't please all of the people all of the time. This effort is unlike > "-hackers" where people have technical reasons for doing things. It is much like hackers in that nothing gets done unless somebody owns the problem. I came up with this idea, and have accepted ownership, and will keep kicking and prodding and pushing, and will assume the lack of loud opposition is the same as agreement. Like it or not, this is the only way to run an anarchy. ;^) > This one effort can set a precedent for -advocacy. Once a precedent is > established, the infrastructure is in place, then we can really make it > happen. Actually, we already set one a couple of months ago. Daemon News. This is an attempt to do it again. Last time I managed to get someone else to pick up the reins and drive the cart, which has worked well because I'm great at building carts and not so great at driving them. This effort is going to require somebody to continue to babysit it after the initial work is done, and so far YOU (Jason) are the prime victim, er, candidate. If you want to take over now, and just let me throw suggestions, I would be ecstatic to have you take the lead. OTOH, I'm not going to drop this if somebody else doesn't come along, I've invested too much effort and engergy over the last three weeks to let it fall on the floor. I need to get started on my next Daemon's Advocate column, and have a VERY important holiday coming up. I won't be doing any FreeBSD, BeOS, work, or anything else over Thanksgiving weekend, and so need to have my column done except for reviews before the 22nd. As far as getting this kicked out the door goes, we certainly don't expect this to be a closed list EVER. Maybe the few applications we've got in each category IS enough to start with. It'll certainly make the initial web page a lot easier to start. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 15:39:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22387 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:39:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22377 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:39:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA01461; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:09:10 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA00768; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:09:07 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981107100906.D499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:09:06 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: NOT FreeBSD Branding project recommendations References: <364382BD.AEC35B90@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <364382BD.AEC35B90@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 04:14:05PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 6 November 1998 at 16:14:05 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > "Jason C. Wells" wrote: >> >> On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >> >>> Maybe we should just put up a web page, with an "add an application" >>> form for each list? >> >> I don't know. It looks like the input has tapered off. I did not even spur >> a flame when I asked people to get busy. You did say that (loosely) "When >> input tapers off I will collate the list and put it to a vote." > > I don't think it's even had a chance to START. Maybe I'm drastically > overestimating the size of -advocacy, FYI, 255 entries in the list, some of which appear to be mailing lists. > but we've only had 6 or 7 replies so far, and I'd hate to cut it off > until after the weekend. If the reply rate doesn't pick up over the > weekend, I'll summarize the results and post them here. I think that the "form" idea (which could be pretty informal) is probably the way to go. > In the meantime, I've got an hour or so this afternoon; I'll go try to > put our current list together and post it back, so others can (hopefully) > add to it in a neat, orderly manner. You're obviously not expecting many products. Did anybody mention StarOffice? >> You can't please all of the people all of the time. This effort is unlike >> "-hackers" where people have technical reasons for doing things. > > It is much like hackers in that nothing gets done unless somebody owns > the problem. I came up with this idea, and have accepted ownership, and > will keep kicking and prodding and pushing, and will assume the lack of > loud opposition is the same as agreement. > > Like it or not, this is the only way to run an anarchy. ;^) By definition, there are plenty of ways to run an anarchy. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 15:46:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23363 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:46:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calvin.saturn-tech.com ([207.229.19.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23358 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by calvin.saturn-tech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA17748 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:46:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 16:46:17 -0700 (MST) From: Doug Russell To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8 for Linux (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:29:23 -0500 From: web master To: drussell@saturn-tech.com Subject: Re: WordPerfect 8 for Linux Hello Doug: I'll pass this information onto the developers. Our Linux strategy is evolving daily and these suggestions are taken seriously. Thanks Dan Enright Corel Web Team x1069 >>> Doug Russell 10/27 3:40 AM >>> I'd just like to voice my appreciation for your support of Linux, and I look forward to using this and other programs that (I hope!) are sure to follow. The PC Free-Unixes desperately need some world-class programs like WordPerfect (and the rest of the WordPerfect Suite.) I personally run several FreeBSD based systems (no Linux boxes at this time), however, I must point out that the Linux binary emulation under FreeBSD works extremely well. I happen to be typing this message into the Linux version of Netscape 4.05. The Linux version of Netscape actually works a little better than the current FreeBSD native version! I fully expect to be able to run the Linux version on FreeBSD, however, I would like to suggest that someone at Corel at least TRY running it during it's development on other Linux-emulating OSes (ie. FreeBSD), or have any of us eager FreeBSD team members take a crack at a beta for you. I don't see how this could possibly not be a good idea. There are, after all, an estimated 1 million FreeBSD users. I certainly only use Windows at all for a few major applications, however, that is changing. With WP8 for Linux, I will no longer need my WP8 for Windows. I currently run CorelDraw 3.0 under WINE (a Windows Emulator) on FreeBSD, and it works quite well. Many of the drawings I use each day are still in 3.0 format. (I drew our company logo master file years ago, and it still sits in version 2.x format. :) ) It can't quite run version 6 yet, but it's coming. :) Rest assured, as soon as I verify that WP8L runs under FreeBSD, I'll be buying a copy. The same goes for CorelDraw, Quattro, and any others you decide to port. There are customers out here waiting. Go ahead and build us the software! :) Thanks Doug Russell President Saturn Computer Technologies Inc. (98 -- 10 Years!) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 17:05:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03162 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:05:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03156 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:05:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id RAA09235; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:03:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981106170342.C28582@best.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:03:42 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Brett Taylor Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What can YOU do? References: <19981106000533.A3901@best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Brett Taylor on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:23:04AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 11:23:04AM -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > > We have a head start with SMP, CAM, etc. We should and > > must take advantage of that. Our system is more stable, we got > > examples of it, and we must tell others about it. > > Exactly. > > > You want to do advocacy? Go for it. Just do it. Don't ask anyone > > permission - it is you and only YOU who can do it. IOW: go for it. > > And if you have a PERSONAL example where things have worked out for you > well w/ FreeBSD (or Open or Net) please write it up and send it in to > Daemon News - we had one this month and I have another on tap for next > month. > > Send this, or any BSD-related article, to > > article@daemonnews.org I already write short note for DN :) (I might write more if/when I get an idea/time). I guess we can have "What I did this month" column where people can write about what they did to promote *BSD. Can you bring up this idea on DN mailing list if you think it's worth it? We can even have friendly competition between three BSDs to see which camp has done more advocacy (on the honor system I guess). An example of a "personal" advocacy is giving talks which in one way or another involve FreeBSD. Writing polite letter to other authors who write about Unix/Open Source. Writing (and trying to get published) articles. Talking to profs if you are a student and talking to other students who seem to have a clue. Catching press at the computer events and not giving up w/o some promise of taking a look at FreeBSD. All those little things add up IMHO. -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 18:36:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11518 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:36:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11508 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:36:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id VAA07033; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:36:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:36:01 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Wes Peters cc: Scott Mitchell , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations In-Reply-To: <36436092.CFD40CDA@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adding a web page would make this alot easier IMO. With a small form to add names. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 18:40:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12101 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12095 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:40:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4025.ime.net [209.90.195.35]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id VAA18989; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:40:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981106213738.009d1ee0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 21:37:57 -0500 To: Open Systems Networking , Wes Peters From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations Cc: Scott Mitchell , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <36436092.CFD40CDA@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:36 PM 11/6/98 -0500, Open Systems Networking wrote: > >Adding a web page would make this alot easier IMO. >With a small form to add names. > >Chris > >-- >"You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is >driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't >tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." --Wes Peters > >===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. > FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: (402)573-9124 / ICQ # 20016186 >-----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza, Omaha, NE 68134 > FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security >===================================| http://open-systems.net > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message I kinda want "Porn Capable Webserver - Runs FreeBSD"... --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 18:41:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12240 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:41:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12201 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:40:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.05demon1 #1) id 0zbyIu-0004ZM-00; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:40:45 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id CAA00476; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:40:13 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22350; Sat, 7 Nov 98 02:40:10 GMT Message-Id: <3643B2DC.4397743B@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 02:39:24 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Daniel Berlin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? References: <364341A8.5D32F671@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > Microsoft DOES participate in a well-organized conspiracy to get their > software onto every computer in the world, it's called "the Marketing > Department." It's obviously very effective, because they haven't won > their current sales figures through technological superiority;> A classic example of "Well-marketed mediocrity will triumph over technical excellence every time" > -- > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? > > Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 > Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.uk.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 18:51:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13423 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13414 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 18:51:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4025.ime.net [209.90.195.35]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id VAA18997; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:45:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981106214312.00b897f0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 21:43:50 -0500 To: Mark Ovens , Wes Peters From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? Cc: Daniel Berlin , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3643B2DC.4397743B@uk.radan.com> References: <364341A8.5D32F671@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:39 AM 11/7/98 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >Wes Peters wrote: >> Microsoft DOES participate in a well-organized conspiracy to get their >> software onto every computer in the world, it's called "the Marketing >> Department." It's obviously very effective, because they haven't won >> their current sales figures through technological superiority;> > >A classic example of "Well-marketed mediocrity will triumph over >technical excellence every time" > >> -- >> Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? >> >> Wes Peters >+1.801.915.2061 >> Softweyr LLC >wes@softweyr.com >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > >-- > When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. > >Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd >Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions >mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.uk.radan.com Well if you're underminding the public (which is easy to do with the 70% of the Windows users that don't give a crap what they're running as long as Need For Speed works), then yeah, it's pretty easy to market :) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 19:35:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17755 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:35:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calvin.saturn-tech.com ([207.229.19.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17750 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by calvin.saturn-tech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA18472; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:35:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:34:59 -0700 (MST) From: Doug Russell To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > Adding a web page would make this alot easier IMO. > With a small form to add names. Yes, I agree. Someone suggested it earlier, and I started to set it up, but ran out of time this afternoon. Is anyone else working on a page? I had a couple suggestions last night... (Actually, more like 3 this am), but I can't remember what they were... I need to see a full list again to jog my memory. Sheesh, I wish I could remember..... DOH! I was noticing that all the previous suggestions were along the "compatible".. and such... I started thinking more along the lines of "supports", or... DOH! what was it. Smack Smack Smack. Someone please do a list so I can stop hitting my head on the workbench. :) I guess that's what I get for not sleeping. :) Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 6 22:20:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00533 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:20:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00526 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:20:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id WAA47612; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:20:24 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id WAA24927; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:20:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:20:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Wes Peters cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: NOT FreeBSD Branding project recommendations In-Reply-To: <364382BD.AEC35B90@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >"Jason C. Wells" wrote: >> >> I don't know. It looks like the input has tapered off. I did not even spur >> a flame when I asked people to get busy. You did say that (loosely) "When >> input tapers off I will collate the list and put it to a vote." > >I don't think it's even had a chance to START. Maybe I'm drastically >overestimating the size of -advocacy, but we've only had 6 or 7 replies >so far, and I'd hate to cut it off until after the weekend. If the >reply rate doesn't pick up over the weekend, I'll summarize the results >and post them here. I guess there is no real hurry as long as the listing process doesn't die. >In the meantime, I've got an hour or so this afternoon; I'll go try to >put our current list together and post it back, so others can (hopefully) >add to it in a neat, orderly manner. Good Idea(tm)! >> You have taken the lead. This may seem undemocratic. I propose to you that >> collate the list (of branding names at least) now put it to a vote and >> keep the current momentum. > >Yeah, but reluctantly, and only because everyone else here has such a >proclivity to "tangetize." If we ever want this discussion to go >somewhere, somebody has to keep kicking it back on track, and you're >the only help I've had. Which, by the way, makes you the semi-official >deputy logo advocate. Or is that vice-advocate? ;^) Sure. >Actually, we already set one a couple of months ago. Daemon News. This >is an attempt to do it again. Last time I managed to get someone else >to pick up the reins and drive the cart, which has worked well because >I'm great at building carts and not so great at driving them. > >This effort is going to require somebody to continue to babysit it after >the initial work is done, and so far YOU (Jason) are the prime victim, >er, candidate. If you want to take over now, and just let me throw >suggestions, I would be ecstatic to have you take the lead. OTOH, I'm >not going to drop this if somebody else doesn't come along, I've invested >too much effort and engergy over the last three weeks to let it fall on >the floor. I will let you have it at least until the initial voting is done. Does freebsd dedicate a space to advocacy on it's website. I had previously tried to propose a charter. Tangetization was a problem. It seems that -advocacy is forming an identity anyway. Perhaps it is time to spawn an "Advocacy Project" with Daemon Newswriting and Branding as it's primary activities. Daemon news is nice in that it is not a moving target. I have written a small article about my trip down the path to BSD. I will submit it after I take a second look at it. Perhaps we can talk once again about "sanctioned advocacy" activities. I say let the branding effort get a head of steam before we really try to "officialize" advocacy too much. I do like the recent post "Don't ask for permission. Just go for it." >As far as getting this kicked out the door goes, we certainly don't expect >this to be a closed list EVER. Neither do I. We can make the policy surrounding branding well defined though. I would hate to confuse people with something designed to make FreeBSD computing more clear. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 01:49:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15119 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:49:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-17.airnet.net [207.242.81.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15111 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:49:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA03806; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 03:46:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <364416DD.2C2AA3F3@airnet.net> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 03:46:05 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Indeed, Linux' history != *BSD history. In fact we predate Linux. On a side > note, isn't it very handy to unite the three free BSD's by means of a bar on > the homepage and providing a quick jump point to those sites? > > FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD Maybe a sub tree under FreeBSD with PicoBSD, FreeBSD SMP, etc.? -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 02:16:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17703 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:16:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17698 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:16:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08592; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:12:57 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981107101257.03186@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:12:57 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: "Jason C. Wells" , Wes Peters Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: NOT FreeBSD Branding project recommendations References: <364382BD.AEC35B90@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 10:20:06PM -0800 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Nov 06, 1998 at 10:20:06PM -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Does freebsd dedicate a space to advocacy on it's website. Not as far as I know. I've started creating one (more news in a couple of days) which will hold * Jordan's e-mail about the Halloween leaks. * My BSD myths page * General advice about advocating FreeBSD to start with, and can be expanded as necessary. More news, as I say, in a couple of days. N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 02:24:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18542 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18531 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:24:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.59.248]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4884; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:24:00 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <364416DD.2C2AA3F3@airnet.net> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 11:27:56 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Kris Kirby Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Nov-98 Kris Kirby wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> Indeed, Linux' history != *BSD history. In fact we predate Linux. On a side >> note, isn't it very handy to unite the three free BSD's by means of a bar on >> the homepage and providing a quick jump point to those sites? >> >> FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD > > Maybe a sub tree under FreeBSD with PicoBSD, FreeBSD SMP, etc.? IMHO it sounds good =) problem being the size ye want to give the banner/logo/whatever... But I like the idea: FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD FreeBSD SMP | NetBSD architectures | OpenBSD ... picoBSD | ... | ... But surely the webmaster have ideas on that? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 05:52:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04800 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 05:52:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail5.svr.freeserve.net (mail5.svr.freeserve.net [194.152.65.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04795 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 05:52:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-11.cobalt.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.13.11] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail5.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zc8md-0006tJ-00; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:52:07 +0000 Message-ID: <36445054.6D8DC694@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 13:51:16 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai CC: Kris Kirby , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 07-Nov-98 Kris Kirby wrote: > > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >> Indeed, Linux' history != *BSD history. In fact we predate Linux. On a side > >> note, isn't it very handy to unite the three free BSD's by means of a bar on > >> the homepage and providing a quick jump point to those sites? > >> > >> FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD > > > > Maybe a sub tree under FreeBSD with PicoBSD, FreeBSD SMP, etc.? > > IMHO it sounds good =) > > problem being the size ye want to give the banner/logo/whatever... > > But I like the idea: > > FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD > FreeBSD SMP | NetBSD architectures | OpenBSD ... > picoBSD | ... | ... > > But surely the webmaster have ideas on that? > It could be done very easily using a java applet. A rotating banner that scrolled the information WITH active hyperlinks to the areas concerned. That assumes Java is an acceptable solution here? -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 05:52:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04854 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 05:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04849 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 05:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.05demon1 #1) id 0zc8n6-0002FZ-00; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:52:37 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA01405; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:52:09 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28238; Sat, 7 Nov 98 13:52:05 GMT Message-Id: <36444CF2.A4B49393@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 13:36:50 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > > >Software category 1: (designed for) > > Netscape Navigator > > Applixware (once port is finished) > > Everything in the ports tree that doesn't need emulation, > commercial or not. > > >Software category 2: (works with) > > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux > > Linux Netscape > Linux Rvplayer > Everything in the ports tree that needs emulation, commercial or > not. > > >Hardware: (works with) > > Linksys EtherFast 10/100 NI card > > Some other Linksys cards are covered too, right? > > > Adaptec SCSI controllers (haven't they helped with drivers?) > > Video Cards that are supported by XFree86 (sure to invite > commentary. This is a FAQ though. People want to know if some > card "works with FreeBSD) > ATI cards (Mach64 & 3D Rage Pro) in my experience Diamond Fireport SCSI cards (someone said, Doug White I think, that they are helpful to people writing device drivers) > >Please add to the list as needed, replying ONLY to freebsd-advocacy. > > I had this one written already too and was going to post it. You are jsut > too fast Wes. > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.uk.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 05:58:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05216 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 05:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05211 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 05:58:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.10]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3A2; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:58:13 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36445054.6D8DC694@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 15:02:11 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Christopher Raven Subject: Re: Linux "best of breed?" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Kris Kirby Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Nov-98 Christopher Raven wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> >> On 07-Nov-98 Kris Kirby wrote: >> > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> >> Indeed, Linux' history != *BSD history. In fact we predate Linux. On a >> >> side >> >> note, isn't it very handy to unite the three free BSD's by means of a bar >> >> on >> >> the homepage and providing a quick jump point to those sites? >> >> >> >> FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD >> > >> > Maybe a sub tree under FreeBSD with PicoBSD, FreeBSD SMP, etc.? >> >> IMHO it sounds good =) >> >> problem being the size ye want to give the banner/logo/whatever... >> >> But I like the idea: >> >> FreeBSD | NetBSD | OpenBSD >> FreeBSD SMP | NetBSD architectures | OpenBSD ... >> picoBSD | ... | ... >> >> But surely the webmaster have ideas on that? >> > > > It could be done very easily using a java applet. A rotating banner > that scrolled the information WITH active hyperlinks to the areas > concerned. > > That assumes Java is an acceptable solution here? That's what I am wondering about too... www.visualirc.com -> great use of java --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 07:12:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09563 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:12:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09558 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:12:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.228]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAADE8 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:12:39 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36444CF2.A4B49393@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:16:37 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Nov-98 Mark Ovens wrote: > Jason C. Wells wrote: >> >> On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >> >> >Software category 1: (designed for) >> > Netscape Navigator >> > Applixware (once port is finished) >> >> Everything in the ports tree that doesn't need emulation, >> commercial or not. >> >> >Software category 2: (works with) >> > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux >> >> Linux Netscape >> Linux Rvplayer >> Everything in the ports tree that needs emulation, commercial or >> not. >> >> >Hardware: (works with) >> > Linksys EtherFast 10/100 NI card >> >> Some other Linksys cards are covered too, right? >> >> > Adaptec SCSI controllers (haven't they helped with drivers?) >> >> Video Cards that are supported by XFree86 (sure to invite >> commentary. This is a FAQ though. People want to know if some >> card "works with FreeBSD) >> > > ATI cards (Mach64 & 3D Rage Pro) in my experience > > Diamond Fireport SCSI cards (someone said, Doug White I think, > that they are helpful to people writing device drivers) Tseng Labs ET6000 SVGA card Quantum Fireball HD's (just for those who like to make double sure) Royal Information DH-1570M Monitor Logitech mice Sony CDU 415 SCSI CD-ROM drive Vadem PC-Card/3.5" diskdrive mix Diamond Flower Inc. Motherboard G586IPV LVD HD's with CAM-enabled kernels Dell OptiPlex, most models if not all Dell PowerEdge 2300 without PERC, with CAM --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 10:18:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23111 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:18:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from limbo.rtfm.net (limbo.rtfm.net [207.198.222.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23092; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:18:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathan@limbo.rtfm.net) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by limbo.rtfm.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA20079; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:13:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nathan) Message-ID: <19981107131325.A20032@rtfm.net> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:13:25 -0500 From: Nathan Dorfman To: Amancio Hasty Jr , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, imp@village.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ariel Faigon: The Holloween Document (fwd) References: <199811032201.OAA13297@netcom14.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199811032201.OAA13297@netcom14.netcom.com>; from Amancio Hasty Jr on Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 02:01:40PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 02:01:40PM -0800, Amancio Hasty Jr wrote: > The e-mail made it to today's San Jose Mercury NewsPaper in the business > section. The news article claims that the e-mail was confirmed by > Microsoft to be authenticate --- not sure who to believe Microsoft or > the Linux camp 8) > > Cheers, > Amancio > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/highlights/editorletter.asp -- ________________ ___________________________________________ / Nathan Dorfman \ / "`IE4 brings the web to UNIX'? *laughing* / nathan@rtfm.net \/ Isn't that similar to Ronald McDonald bringing / finger for PGP key \ religion to the pope?" -Jamie Bowden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 11:41:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02504 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:41:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02498 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26087 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:41:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:41:01 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: I Need Advice Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. Right now, I am thinking something like : |---------------------------| 1 FreeBSD 2 A Free Operating System 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org 4 The Power To Serve I suspect there must be much better wording to get the message across and get people's attention. I plan to leave these pens in book stores, computer stores, give them to friends, maybe ask some people to take some to their schools with them. I know it's not much, but I really want to get this message done right :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 12:49:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08716 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:49:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (the.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08709 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:49:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from insane@the.oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) by the.oneinsane.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA08686; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:49:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981107124926.A8613@oneinsane.net> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:49:26 -0800 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: Mark Ovens , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations Reply-To: insane@oneinsane.net References: <36444CF2.A4B49393@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36444CF2.A4B49393@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 01:36:50PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.7-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM X-WWW: http://www.oneinsane.net Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 01:36:50PM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > >Software category 1: (designed for) > > > Netscape Navigator > > > Applixware (once port is finished) > > > > Everything in the ports tree that doesn't need emulation, > > commercial or not. > > > > >Software category 2: (works with) > > > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux > > > > Linux Netscape > > Linux Rvplayer > > Everything in the ports tree that needs emulation, commercial or > > not. > > > > >Hardware: (works with) > > > Linksys EtherFast 10/100 NI card > > > > Some other Linksys cards are covered too, right? > > > > > Adaptec SCSI controllers (haven't they helped with drivers?) > > > > Video Cards that are supported by XFree86 (sure to invite > > commentary. This is a FAQ though. People want to know if some > > card "works with FreeBSD) > > > > ATI cards (Mach64 & 3D Rage Pro) in my experience > > Diamond Fireport SCSI cards (someone said, Doug White I think, > that they are helpful to people writing device drivers) > Emerging Technologies Cards work.. Even if we dont have source. > > > > >Please add to the list as needed, replying ONLY to freebsd-advocacy. > > > > I had this one written already too and was going to post it. You are jsut > > too fast Wes. > > > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void ------------------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. [----------------------------System Info---------------------------] 12:47PM up 2 days, 13:28, 3 users, load averages: 1.02, 0.79, 0.80 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 13:10:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10421 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:10:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10416 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:10:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.106]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6FD1; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:10:32 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 22:14:29 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Licia Subject: RE: I Need Advice Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Nov-98 Licia wrote: > > I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. > I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place > my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how > best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. > > Right now, I am thinking something like : > > |---------------------------| > > 1 FreeBSD > 2 A Free Operating System > 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org > 4 The Power To Serve Clear enough for me though... =) Mayhaps FreeBSD A Free Operating System Home of the Daemon: http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power and Stability to Serve... just an idea... ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 13:22:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11426 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11421 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:22:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29635; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:22:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:22:14 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: I Need Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thank you for your reply, but those lines are a bit too long. It can only be a maximum of 26 characters per line, (that's what the |---------------------------| is for, to show line length :) ) which is why I am having trouble deciding on the text. I am better at expressing myself, if I have more room to work with :) On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 07-Nov-98 Licia wrote: > > > > I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. > > I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place > > my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how > > best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. > > > > Right now, I am thinking something like : > > > > |---------------------------| > > > > 1 FreeBSD > > 2 A Free Operating System > > 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org > > 4 The Power To Serve > > Clear enough for me though... =) > > Mayhaps > > FreeBSD > A Free Operating System > Home of the Daemon: http://www.FreeBSD.org > The Power and Stability to Serve... > > just an idea... ;) > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 13:42:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13078 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:42:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13061 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 13:42:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08614; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:12:39 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981107211239.09261@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:12:39 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: TeX problems; Doc. Proj. needs you! Reply-To: nik@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ multi-posted, because of x-post limits, to -hackers, -advocacy, -newbies, and -doc. -hackers, because we might have some hackers who know TeX, but wouldn't think of reading -doc because they don't think they can write. -advocacy, for similar reasons -newbies, for similar reasons (some of the folks in there are new to FreeBSD, but not knew to Unix and/or Unix apps) -doc, because it's Doc. Proj. related. Also posted to comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc. Reply-To set back to me, nik@freebsd.org ] Calling all TeX hackers, your Documentation Project needs you. The Handbook has been converted to DocBook. This process is (bar some merging from current content) complete. One of the last hurdles is getting PostScript and PDF versions of the Handbook generated. When that's done, we can retire the LinuxDoc version (and start working on the FAQ, and other tutorials). I don't know TeX, and I don't have reference materials handy. There's also a bunch of other Doc. Proj. related stuff that I can do to help bring others up to speed. So I need your help. Briefly, this is how the Handbook is now arranged; * The DocBook Handbook is in the doc/en/handbook subdirectory of the CVS tree. There's a Makefile in there, which should work, as long as you've installed ports/textproc/docproj -- this is a meta-port which will pull in all the others. * The Handbook is processed by an application called Jade. Jade produces a .tex file. * This .tex file then needs to be used, in conjunction with some macros, called JadeTeX, to produce a DVI file. The JadeTeX macros also have a PDF variant. JadeTex needs teTeX v0.9. In theory, that's all the pieces that are needed. I can sort of get things to work. But there are problems, and I don't know how to fix them. This where I've got to so far; * Download and install textproc/docproj from the ports system. This will give you Jade, the DTDs for the Doc. Proj. (don't worry, you don't need to know what they are) and supporting applications. * Download and install print/teTeX-beta from the ports system (you want a version which identifies itself as 0.9-YYMMDD). It's large, ~30MB of required distfiles. * Configure TeX with /usr/local/bin/texconfig. - Rebuild the ls-R database - Change the hyphenation table. Uncomment the British entry (and keep a stiff upper lip as you do so). - Set an xdvi default papertype - Set a dvips default papertype - In the fonts menu, add global write permissions * Fetch the JadeTeX macro package from a CTAN repository, such as You want the contents of that directory and all the subdirectories, so somewhere that supports on the fly tarring of directories is useful. The RCS string in jadetex.dtx should be 2.3 or higher. * Install it. It comes with a Makefile, but it's got problems; 1. The line tex -ini "&hugelatex" jadetex.ini doesn't work, there is no &hugelatex. I used &latex. 2. It references dsssl.def and isoents.tex. I don't know where they come from. 3. Building pdfjadetex doesn't work, due to problems with hyperref. Ignoring those problems, I can get it to install using the Makefile. * Checkout a copy of /doc/en/handbook/ from the CVS repository. You'll also need /doc/en/sgml checked out (and in the same relative position in the filesystem). Run make handbook.tex and wait for it to generate a ~5MB .tex file. If the "handbook.tex" target doesn't exist, it means I haven't committed the Makefile yet. Instead, you can run the following /usr/local/bin/jade -c ../../sgml/catalog \ -c /usr/local/share/sgml/docbook/dsssl/modular/catalog \ -c /usr/local/share/sgml/docbook/3.0/catalog \ -c /usr/local/share/sgml/jade/catalog \ -d /usr/local/share/sgml/docbook/dsssl/modular/print/docbook.dsl \ -t tex handbook.sgml * Bump up your TeX limits, since the Handbook's size pushes TeX fairly hard. In particular, you want these settings hash_extra = 60000 pool_size = 1000000 max_strings = 70000 in /usr/local/share/texmf/web2c/texmf.cnf (adjust the path depending on your $PREFIX setting). * Run tex "&jadetex" handbook.tex You will see errors go by, but it will eventually generate handbook.dvi. The generated file has some problems, in particular, most of the ISO entities (>, ö, and so on) are still in that form, and haven't been translated. Also, the table of contents doesn't have the page numbers correct. You should also be able to do tex "&pdfjadetex" handbook.tex to get the PDF version. I can't do this because of the hyperref problems I outline above. If you can get this working, *and* come up with a jadetex port, I'll be very grateful. If you can get this working, and can give me detailed instructions so that I can write a jadetex port, I'll still be pretty grateful :-) Many thanks to anyone who can help with this. N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 14:24:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16821 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:24:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16816 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:24:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17586; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:24:19 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981107222418.18373@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:24:18 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Advocacy web pages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, not quite. Here's the beginnings of what could be the advocacy area on the FreeBSD site. Obviously, it needs more content. Comments and suggestions for additions welcome. If all goes well, I should be able to commit this to the site some time on Monday evening. N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 15:32:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22472 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22464 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:32:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA04863; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:02:19 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA02815; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:02:18 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981108100217.U499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 10:02:17 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Licia on Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 01:41:01PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 13:41:01 -0600, Licia wrote: > > I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. > I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place > my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how > best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. > > Right now, I am thinking something like : > > | ---------------------------| > > 1 FreeBSD > 2 A Free Operating System > 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org > 4 The Power To Serve > > > I suspect there must be much better wording to get the message > across and get people's attention. I plan to leave these pens > in book stores, computer stores, give them to friends, maybe > ask some people to take some to their schools with them. I know > it's not much, but I really want to get this message done right :) It would be nice to get something in there that indicates the nature of the operating system. I can't think of anything myself, but maybe somebody else can. That's a generous offer. Is this your own money, or is somebody else behind you? Also, why pens? I keep suggesting mouse pads, but nobody has got around to it yet. Of course, I don't know the relative cost. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 15:37:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22904 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22898 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:37:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4031.ime.net [209.90.195.41]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id SAA23111; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:36:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107183347.0098ce20@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 18:34:23 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-Reply-To: <19981108100217.U499@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:02 AM 11/8/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 13:41:01 -0600, Licia wrote: >> >> I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. >> I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place >> my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how >> best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. >> >> Right now, I am thinking something like : >> >> | ---------------------------| >> >> 1 FreeBSD >> 2 A Free Operating System >> 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org >> 4 The Power To Serve >> >> >> I suspect there must be much better wording to get the message >> across and get people's attention. I plan to leave these pens >> in book stores, computer stores, give them to friends, maybe >> ask some people to take some to their schools with them. I know >> it's not much, but I really want to get this message done right :) > >It would be nice to get something in there that indicates the nature >of the operating system. I can't think of anything myself, but maybe >somebody else can. > >That's a generous offer. Is this your own money, or is somebody else >behind you? Also, why pens? I keep suggesting mouse pads, but nobody >has got around to it yet. Of course, I don't know the relative cost. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > There's a company called Best Impressions that does stuff like that. I nearly regularly get their catalog. I find most of their minimum orders for ANY item costs about 200 bucks after setup and all. Otherwise I'd get pens with the OneEX logo on them or something. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 16:08:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27515 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:08:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27508 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:08:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.97]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA69A9; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:08:10 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:12:09 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Licia Subject: RE: I Need Advice Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Nov-98 Licia wrote: > > Thank you for your reply, but those lines are a bit too > long. It can only be a maximum of 26 characters per line, > (that's what the |---------------------------| is for, to show > line length :) ) which is why I am having trouble deciding on > the text. I am better at expressing myself, if I have more > room to work with :) D'oh! Thought they were drawn as a guide, but not that definite ;) Ehm... Well as long as ye don't try to rewrite Shakespeare's works on that pen ;) Make it short and to the point then? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl Junior Network/Security Specialist *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 16:20:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28989 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28897; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:18:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199811080018.QAA28897@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Status of Branding In-Reply-To: <19981105145825.V23039@orcrist.mediacity.com> from Gregory Sutter at "Nov 5, 98 02:58:25 pm" To: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:18:43 -0800 (PST) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Thu, Nov 05, 1998 at 12:31:58PM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > I don't think we've achieved quite this level of agreement on the hardware > > side, but I think the software guidelines are pretty easy to adapt to > > hardware products. I'm not sure there is any hardware that really > > qualifies as "Designed for" or "Pure" FreeBSD, so perhaps we only apply > > the lower logo to hardware? > > Whistle InterJet > ftp.cdrom.com :) > Nokia VPN200 routing firewall modules all Nokia VPN and firewall products. not just the VPN200, but also the IP410 and IP440. i believe that is their entire product list. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 16:28:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00351 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00343 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:28:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00373; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:28:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:28:24 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-Reply-To: <19981108100217.U499@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 13:41:01 -0600, Licia wrote: > > > > I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. > > I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place > > my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how > > best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. > > > > Right now, I am thinking something like : > > > > | ---------------------------| > > > > 1 FreeBSD > > 2 A Free Operating System > > 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org > > 4 The Power To Serve > > > > > > I suspect there must be much better wording to get the message > > across and get people's attention. I plan to leave these pens > > in book stores, computer stores, give them to friends, maybe > > ask some people to take some to their schools with them. I know > > it's not much, but I really want to get this message done right :) > > It would be nice to get something in there that indicates the nature > of the operating system. I can't think of anything myself, but maybe > somebody else can. > I tried various comma delimited word groups to get that effect, but it didn't look right, perhaps because I didn't think of the right words. The last group I tried was something like : net, web, dns, email, irc on the line I currently list "The Power To Serve" > That's a generous offer. Is this your own money, or is somebody else > behind you? Also, why pens? I keep suggesting mouse pads, but nobody > has got around to it yet. Of course, I don't know the relative cost. > > Greg > -- :) Yes, it's my own money. I wish there were someone behind me, but I can't seem to interest many people in my ideas, so i'm doing them all on my own :) Most of them just involve work, which costs me nothing but time and give me some fun :) I'm trying to do several things right now to advocate and support FreeBSD and will hopefully begin getting very public about them within the next 30 or 40 days, quicker if I can get the time to do more of the work. I chose pens because I saw an advertisement sent to a friend owning a small business. She buys these pens with her business information on them for something like 48 cents each. When I saw that, it occured to me what works for a small commercial business would likely work well for a free operating system :) Mouse pads I don't know anything about. The cheapest usable one's I've found retail for $1 plus tax here in Houston. I imagine it would be at least that much for wholesale pads with things printed on them to order. The pens are much cheaper, I think :) Also, people tend to keep their mousepads in one place. I figure cheap pens will get moved around more, getting more exposure hopefully resulting in more people hearing about this marvelous gift that's just waiting for them to accept it :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 16:35:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01432 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:35:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01424; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:35:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199811080035.QAA01424@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981105234842.00aa25c0@genesis.ispace.com> from Drew Baxter at "Nov 6, 98 00:00:18 am" To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:35:04 -0800 (PST) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Drew Baxter wrote: > Personally, I think Operating System manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to > make market-competitive applications. Not if we're just going to have > intentional flukes exploited by installing Exchange and Eudora on a machine > or something like that. indeed. this is the maximal result from the lawsuit or string of lawsuits that microsoft will/may face over the next decade. breakup into OS company and applications company(ies)....its happened before jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 16:37:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01700 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01694; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:37:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4031.ime.net [209.90.195.41]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id TAA23169; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:37:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107193443.00a8a420@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 19:35:14 -0500 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Halloween memo - what does it mean? Cc: wes@softweyr.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199811080035.QAA01424@hub.freebsd.org> References: <4.1.19981105234842.00aa25c0@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:35 PM 11/7/98 -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: >Drew Baxter wrote: >> Personally, I think Operating System manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to >> make market-competitive applications. Not if we're just going to have >> intentional flukes exploited by installing Exchange and Eudora on a machine >> or something like that. > > indeed. this is the maximal result from the lawsuit or > string of lawsuits that microsoft will/may face over > the next decade. breakup into OS company and applications > company(ies)....its happened before >jmb Here's some theory.... I bet they'll build a building down the street and it'll be "Microsoft 2.0".. :-) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 17:35:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06936 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:35:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail5.svr.freeserve.net (mail5.svr.freeserve.net [194.152.65.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06931 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:35:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-114.zinc.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.14.242] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail5.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zcJkd-0001E0-00 for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:34:47 +0000 Message-ID: <3644F526.5A7DADCF@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:34:30 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations References: <36444CF2.A4B49393@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > >Software category 1: (designed for) > > > Netscape Navigator > > > Applixware (once port is finished) > > > > Everything in the ports tree that doesn't need emulation, > > commercial or not. > > > > >Software category 2: (works with) > > > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux > > > > Linux Netscape > > Linux Rvplayer > > Everything in the ports tree that needs emulation, commercial or > > not. > > > > >Hardware: (works with) > > > Linksys EtherFast 10/100 NI card > > > > Some other Linksys cards are covered too, right? > > > > > Adaptec SCSI controllers (haven't they helped with drivers?) > > > > Video Cards that are supported by XFree86 (sure to invite > > commentary. This is a FAQ though. People want to know if some > > card "works with FreeBSD) > > > > ATI cards (Mach64 & 3D Rage Pro) in my experience > > Diamond Fireport SCSI cards (someone said, Doug White I think, > that they are helpful to people writing device drivers) > Can we add motherboards to this list? Micronics :- Twister AT (Jumpered MB) Legend QDI :- P51430TX-250 Titanium IB (Jumperless MB) -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 17:39:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07176 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:39:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07170 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:39:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4031.ime.net [209.90.195.41]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA23228; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:38:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107203611.0098af00@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:36:40 -0500 To: Christopher Raven , "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD Branding project recommendations In-Reply-To: <3644F526.5A7DADCF@ukonline.co.uk> References: <36444CF2.A4B49393@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:34 AM 11/8/98 +0000, Christopher Raven wrote: >Mark Ovens wrote: >> >> Jason C. Wells wrote: >> > >> > On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Wes Peters wrote: >> > >> > >Software category 1: (designed for) >> > > Netscape Navigator >> > > Applixware (once port is finished) >> > >> > Everything in the ports tree that doesn't need emulation, >> > commercial or not. >> > >> > >Software category 2: (works with) >> > > Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 /linux >> > >> > Linux Netscape >> > Linux Rvplayer >> > Everything in the ports tree that needs emulation, commercial or >> > not. >> > >> > >Hardware: (works with) >> > > Linksys EtherFast 10/100 NI card >> > >> > Some other Linksys cards are covered too, right? >> > >> > > Adaptec SCSI controllers (haven't they helped with drivers?) >> > >> > Video Cards that are supported by XFree86 (sure to invite >> > commentary. This is a FAQ though. People want to know if some >> > card "works with FreeBSD) >> > >> >> ATI cards (Mach64 & 3D Rage Pro) in my experience >> >> Diamond Fireport SCSI cards (someone said, Doug White I think, >> that they are helpful to people writing device drivers) >> > >Can we add motherboards to this list? > >Micronics :- Twister AT (Jumpered MB) >Legend QDI :- P51430TX-250 Titanium IB (Jumperless MB) The Supermicro P6SBA works rather well under FreeBSD too, which is what I'm using.. I have yet to try the P6DBS with DualProcessor support. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 17:45:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07926 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07894 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:45:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13874; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:45:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Licia cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Nov 1998 18:28:24 CST." Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 17:45:38 -0800 Message-ID: <13870.910489538@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > :) Yes, it's my own money. I wish there were someone behind me, but > I can't seem to interest many people in my ideas, so i'm doing them > all on my own :) Most of them just involve work, which costs me nothing When you get the invoice for these pens, please send it to me and I'll either pay it or send you a cheque to cover your having paid it. This kind of initiative is to be encouraged. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 17:49:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09656 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:49:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09651 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:49:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00815; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:49:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:49:13 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-Reply-To: <13870.910489538@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > :) Yes, it's my own money. I wish there were someone behind me, but > > I can't seem to interest many people in my ideas, so i'm doing them > > all on my own :) Most of them just involve work, which costs me nothing > > When you get the invoice for these pens, please send it to me and I'll > either pay it or send you a cheque to cover your having paid it. This > kind of initiative is to be encouraged. :) > > - Jordan > Hehehe thank you :) I'll be happy to send you some of the pens, but I would really rather see the money go back into FreeBSD :) I don't need monetary encouragement, I really do love this project :) if you want to do something to encourage me even more, look at my website and tell me what you think :) or test my software and give me feedback :) that's all for FreeBSD too :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 17:52:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09940 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:52:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail4.svr.freeserve.net (mail4.svr.freeserve.net [195.92.193.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09933 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 17:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-62.oxygen.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.3.190] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail4.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zcK1I-0005i9-00; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:52:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3644F91A.E69CD49F@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:51:22 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: <19981108100217.U499@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 13:41:01 -0600, Licia wrote: > > > > I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. > > I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place > > my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how > > best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. > > > > Right now, I am thinking something like : > > > > | ---------------------------| > > > > 1 FreeBSD > > 2 A Free Operating System > > 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org > > 4 The Power To Serve > > > > > > I suspect there must be much better wording to get the message > > across and get people's attention. I plan to leave these pens > > in book stores, computer stores, give them to friends, maybe > > ask some people to take some to their schools with them. I know > > it's not much, but I really want to get this message done right :) > > It would be nice to get something in there that indicates the nature > of the operating system. I can't think of anything myself, but maybe > somebody else can. > > That's a generous offer. Is this your own money, or is somebody else > behind you? Also, why pens? I keep suggesting mouse pads, but nobody > has got around to it yet. Of course, I don't know the relative cost. I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:13:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11584 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:13:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11577 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:13:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13983; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:13:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Christopher Raven cc: Greg Lehey , Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:51:22 GMT." <3644F91A.E69CD49F@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 18:13:17 -0800 Message-ID: <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek > was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. Stickers, case buttons, tee shirts, polo shirts, jackets and hats will have to do for now... If anyone else wants to do FreeBSD mouse pads or bumper stickers or marital aids, they should feel free to jump right in. WC will not stand in your way or attempt to duplicate your efforts. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:14:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11740 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:14:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11722 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA05472; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:44:29 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA03283; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:44:28 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:44:27 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Raven Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: <3644F91A.E69CD49F@ukonline.co.uk> <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 06:13:17PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 18:13:17 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek >> was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? > > At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment most likely to get attention from potential users. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:17:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11968 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:17:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11955 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14040; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:17:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Licia cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Nov 1998 19:49:13 CST." Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 18:17:13 -0800 Message-ID: <14037.910491433@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hehehe thank you :) I'll be happy to send you some of the pens, but > I would really rather see the money go back into FreeBSD :) I don't > need monetary encouragement, I really do love this project :) if you > want to do something to encourage me even more, look at my website and > tell me what you think :) or test my software and give me feedback :) > that's all for FreeBSD too :) I looked at your web site and find it to be a good start, though the graphics and backgrounds are a bit garish for my tastes. Perhaps I'm just a boring sort, but the 3 color (white/black/red or white/black/yellow) corporate look and feel really does it for me. :-) The general ideas here are certainly sound and I look forward to seeing the various sub-sections fleshed out! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:18:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12128 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12121 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:18:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14066; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:18:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: Christopher Raven , Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 08 Nov 1998 12:44:27 +1030." <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 18:18:11 -0800 Message-ID: <14062.910491491@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment > most likely to get attention from potential users. I think WC is simply maxed out on FreeBSD merchandise for the moment. Making all of this costs money, especially when you're giving it away (like we do with stickers and case plates). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:18:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12185 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12178 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:18:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4031.ime.net [209.90.195.41]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id VAA23262; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:17:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107211410.00a78a70@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:15:25 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Raven From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) Cc: Greg Lehey , Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:13 PM 11/7/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek >> was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? > >At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. Stickers, case buttons, >tee shirts, polo shirts, jackets and hats will have to do for now... > >If anyone else wants to do FreeBSD mouse pads or bumper stickers or >marital aids, they should feel free to jump right in. WC will not >stand in your way or attempt to duplicate your efforts. :-) > >- Jordan Gee and I wanted a Motorola Pager with the FreeBSD Daemon on it *pout*... No fair, the Olympics gets one and not FreeBSD? :P you guys need more T-Shirt designs though, that'd be cool.. I got one, but I can't have more than 1 of the same thing, otherwise that'd cause rumour around the office that I may not shower, etc.. hehe.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:20:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12650 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:20:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12626 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4031.ime.net [209.90.195.41]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id VAA23269; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:20:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107211638.00af7eb0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:17:52 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Raven From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> References: <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> <3644F91A.E69CD49F@ukonline.co.uk> <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:44 PM 11/8/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 18:13:17 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek >>> was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? >> >> At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. > >Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment >most likely to get attention from potential users. > >Greg I dunno about you, but my FreeBSD box is near my network patch panel with no monitor, keyboard or mouse breathing on it.. I'm sure I'm not the only one like that :-) At the same time, my preferred pointing device is a Logitech Vista trackball. It's lower maint than Mice, partially because of gravity, and partially because if the rollers are gummed, I just screw driver off the crap off the rollers, and it's flawless again.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:24:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13039 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:24:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13030 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:24:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01234; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:23:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 20:23:50 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-Reply-To: <14037.910491433@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Hehehe thank you :) I'll be happy to send you some of the pens, but > > I would really rather see the money go back into FreeBSD :) I don't > > need monetary encouragement, I really do love this project :) if you > > want to do something to encourage me even more, look at my website and > > tell me what you think :) or test my software and give me feedback :) > > that's all for FreeBSD too :) > > I looked at your web site and find it to be a good start, though the > graphics and backgrounds are a bit garish for my tastes. Perhaps I'm > just a boring sort, but the 3 color (white/black/red or > white/black/yellow) corporate look and feel really does it for me. :-) > Thanks for looking :) I'm one of those people who is always desperately in need of feedback :) Hmm I'll look into a more corporate set of graphics I love doing backgrounds anyway, so I should be able to make up some that are more conservative :) > The general ideas here are certainly sound and I look forward to seeing > the various sub-sections fleshed out! > > - Jordan > Thank you again :) Do you think there is any problem with the rightmost column of links? they all point into the www.freebsd.org site, and I have been wondering if that's quite appropriate? The sections are what i'm working on now :) I'm hoping to have the first 10 reviews for the FOSA section done tonight, and I'm about 30% done with an article server CGI I need for the library section. (and I have already finished an article for it, regarding the choosing of software licenses :) ) Thanks again for the critique! :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:39:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14733 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:39:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.svr.freeserve.net (mail3.svr.freeserve.net [194.152.65.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14707 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:39:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-48.chromium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.11.176] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail3.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zcKkw-0003N7-00; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 02:39:10 +0000 Message-ID: <3645043C.E926B84D@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 02:38:53 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek > > was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? > > At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. Stickers, case buttons, > tee shirts, polo shirts, jackets and hats will have to do for now... > > If anyone else wants to do FreeBSD mouse pads or bumper stickers or > marital aids, they should feel free to jump right in. WC will not ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hmm, now theres a thought ...... powered by FreeBSD ;-) > stand in your way or attempt to duplicate your efforts. :-) > > - Jordan -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:40:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14898 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:40:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14892 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:40:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA05578; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:10:28 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA03331; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:10:27 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981108131027.H499@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 13:10:27 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Drew Baxter , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Raven Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> <3644F91A.E69CD49F@ukonline.co.uk> <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981107211638.00af7eb0@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981107211638.00af7eb0@genesis.ispace.com>; from Drew Baxter on Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 09:17:52PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 21:17:52 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 12:44 PM 11/8/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 18:13:17 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>>> I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek >>>> was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? >>> >>> At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. >> >> Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment >> most likely to get attention from potential users. >> >> Greg > > I dunno about you, but my FreeBSD box is near my network patch panel with > no monitor, keyboard or mouse breathing on it.. I'm sure I'm not the only > one like that :-) Definitely not. But you're not the only kind of user, and maybe you'd still like a FreeBSD mouse pad with a friendly daemon on the SGI box you have on your desktop. > At the same time, my preferred pointing device is a Logitech Vista > trackball. Ah. That's less useful. Still, trackballs aren't that common. I found them quite useful on my cluttered desk before I went beyond 800x600. After that they become too difficult to point with accurately. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:43:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15252 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15245 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:43:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id SAA00768; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:42:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19981107184159.A633@best.com> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:41:59 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Greg Lehey Cc: Christopher Raven , Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> <14062.910491491@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <14062.910491491@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 06:18:11PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 06:18:11PM -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment > > most likely to get attention from potential users. > > I think WC is simply maxed out on FreeBSD merchandise for the moment. > Making all of this costs money, especially when you're giving it away > (like we do with stickers and case plates). > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message Can someone tell me what are "case plates" please? Thanks. :) -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:47:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15949 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:47:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15935 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:47:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4031.ime.net [209.90.195.41]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id VAA23290; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:46:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107214253.00a814c0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:44:24 -0500 To: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Raven From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) Cc: Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981108131027.H499@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981107211638.00af7eb0@genesis.ispace.com> <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> <3644F91A.E69CD49F@ukonline.co.uk> <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981107211638.00af7eb0@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:10 PM 11/8/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 21:17:52 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: >> At 12:44 PM 11/8/98 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Saturday, 7 November 1998 at 18:13:17 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>>>> I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek >>>>> was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? >>>> >>>> At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. >>> >>> Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment >>> most likely to get attention from potential users. >>> >>> Greg >> >> I dunno about you, but my FreeBSD box is near my network patch panel with >> no monitor, keyboard or mouse breathing on it.. I'm sure I'm not the only >> one like that :-) > >Definitely not. But you're not the only kind of user, and maybe you'd >still like a FreeBSD mouse pad with a friendly daemon on the SGI box >you have on your desktop. > >> At the same time, my preferred pointing device is a Logitech Vista >> trackball. > >Ah. That's less useful. Still, trackballs aren't that common. I >found them quite useful on my cluttered desk before I went beyond >800x600. After that they become too difficult to point with >accurately. > >Greg 300dpi on my trackball.. extremely useful in anything from Photoshop to Command and Conquer: Red Alert.... I have no desk space.. my main machine is a DualPII-333 with 128mb and 17.7gig.. and it's sitting here at the edge of my bed.. I hate to sit up (my back sucks), so I just sorta like lay here and code... I find I'm more productive that way. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:54:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16501 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16494 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:54:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4031.ime.net [209.90.195.41]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id VAA23297; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:54:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107215130.009fdf00@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:51:59 -0500 To: "Jan B. Koum " , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Greg Lehey From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) Cc: Christopher Raven , Licia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981107184159.A633@best.com> References: <14062.910491491@time.cdrom.com> <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> <14062.910491491@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:41 PM 11/7/98 -0800, Jan B. Koum wrote: >On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 06:18:11PM -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > wrote: >> > Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment >> > most likely to get attention from potential users. >> >> I think WC is simply maxed out on FreeBSD merchandise for the moment. >> Making all of this costs money, especially when you're giving it away >> (like we do with stickers and case plates). >> >> - Jordan >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > Can someone tell me what are "case plates" please? Thanks. :) > >-- Yan Jordan touched on this earlier in the thread.. I guess they are the steel plates that go into the 1x1 square on the front of generic computer cases.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 18:55:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16582 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:55:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail4.svr.freeserve.net (mail4.svr.freeserve.net [195.92.193.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16577 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 18:55:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from modem-21.gallium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.15.21] helo=ukonline.co.uk) by mail4.svr.freeserve.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05iplimit-2 #5) id 0zcKzy-0000OR-00; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 02:54:42 +0000 Message-ID: <364507C3.FC4F9B9@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 02:53:55 +0000 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jan B. Koum" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: <19981108124427.E499@freebie.lemis.com> <14062.910491491@time.cdrom.com> <19981107184159.A633@best.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jan B. Koum wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 06:18:11PM -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Any reason why not? I still think these are the kind of advertisment > > > most likely to get attention from potential users. > > > > I think WC is simply maxed out on FreeBSD merchandise for the moment. > > Making all of this costs money, especially when you're giving it away > > (like we do with stickers and case plates). > > > > - Jordan > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > Can someone tell me what are "case plates" please? Thanks. :) > > -- Yan I *believe* they are the small, square, brass / plastic OEM tags that sit in that little recess on the box's front panel. -- Christopher Raven E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk & ICQ: 2254369 http://www.FreeBSD.org/ "The Power To Serve" http://www.unmetered.org.uk/ "A PC is for life, not just for Xmas" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 19:15:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19029 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:15:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19017 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:15:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA25836; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:14:28 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981108141424.00692@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:14:24 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Licia Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I Need Advice References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Licia on Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 01:41:01PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 01:41:01PM -0600, Licia wrote: > > I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. > I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place > my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how > best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. > > Right now, I am thinking something like : > > |---------------------------| > > 1 FreeBSD > 2 A Free Operating System > 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org > 4 The Power To Serve Why not utilise some of that area as free space to accentuate the rest? Then you could say more with less, and arouse curiosity, e.g. |---------------------------| 1 The power to serve 2 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org 4 or use line 4 instead of 3 (I'm not sure whether line 4 would lead onto line 1 without a gap or not, and that's important), so that some text is visible at any angle. People don't usually spend much time reading pens :-) The name is obvious from the URL. Another way to spice up the mystery would be something like: |---------------------------| 1 My other writing tool is 2 FreeBSD 3 4 http://www.FreeBSD.org |---------------------------| 1 My other writing tool has 2 the power to serve. 3 4 http://www.FreeBSD.org |---------------------------| 1 My other communication tool 2 has the power to serve. 3 4 http://www.FreeBSD.org Come on folks, think of something better. Whatever doesn't get used on pens will give us ideas for other uses. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 19:21:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19780 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19772 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4002.ime.net [209.90.195.12]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id WAA23324; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 22:20:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981107221812.00a6eee0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 22:18:22 -0500 To: Sue Blake , Licia From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: I Need Advice Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981108141424.00692@welearn.com.au> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:14 PM 11/8/98 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: >On Sat, Nov 07, 1998 at 01:41:01PM -0600, Licia wrote: >> >> I'm about to place an order for 1,000 ink pens to give away. >> I am allowed 4 lines of 26 characters each in which to place >> my message. I would really like some suggestions as to how >> best to use these lines to advocate FreeBSD. >> >> Right now, I am thinking something like : >> >> |---------------------------| >> >> 1 FreeBSD >> 2 A Free Operating System >> 3 http://www.FreeBSD.org >> 4 The Power To Serve > >Why not utilise some of that area as free space to accentuate the rest? >Then you could say more with less, and arouse curiosity, e.g. > > |---------------------------| >1 The power to serve >2 >3 http://www.FreeBSD.org >4 > >or use line 4 instead of 3 (I'm not sure whether line 4 would lead onto >line 1 without a gap or not, and that's important), so that some text >is visible at any angle. People don't usually spend much time reading >pens :-) The name is obvious from the URL. > >Another way to spice up the mystery would be something like: > > |---------------------------| >1 My other writing tool is >2 FreeBSD >3 >4 http://www.FreeBSD.org > > > |---------------------------| >1 My other writing tool has >2 the power to serve. >3 >4 http://www.FreeBSD.org > > > |---------------------------| >1 My other communication tool >2 has the power to serve. >3 >4 http://www.FreeBSD.org > > >Come on folks, think of something better. Whatever doesn't get used >on pens will give us ideas for other uses. > >-- > >Regards, > -*Sue*- Some of those are really good, Sue.. :-) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange 207-942-0275 http://www.droo.orland.me.us My Latest Kernel: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT (ONEEX) #14: Mon Oct 19 22:36:58 EDT 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 19:25:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20400 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:25:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20377 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:25:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA25879; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:25:12 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19981108142508.29313@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:25:08 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Christopher Raven Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) References: <13980.910491197@time.cdrom.com> <3645043C.E926B84D@ukonline.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3645043C.E926B84D@ukonline.co.uk>; from Christopher Raven on Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 02:38:53AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Nov 08, 1998 at 02:38:53AM +0000, Christopher Raven wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > I believe the mouse pads stalled when it was mentioned Walnut Creek > > > was going to pick up on them. Guess we are still waiting on that one? > > > > At this time, we do not plan on mouse pads. Stickers, case buttons, > > tee shirts, polo shirts, jackets and hats will have to do for now... > > > > If anyone else wants to do FreeBSD mouse pads or bumper stickers or > > marital aids, they should feel free to jump right in. WC will not > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Hmm, now theres a thought ...... powered by FreeBSD ;-) Hmmm... something in black satin and lace please. No power plays, just a little daemon saying "grep". -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 19:51:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22896 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:51:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22891 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:51:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14409; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:51:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Licia cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 07 Nov 1998 20:23:50 CST." Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 19:51:41 -0800 Message-ID: <14405.910497101@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Thank you again :) Do you think there is any problem with the rightmost > column of links? they all point into the www.freebsd.org site, and I Not at all. Just so long as they point different places so as to be moderately interesting. :-) -Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 7 19:54:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23159 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23153 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 19:54:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02258; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:54:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 21:54:22 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD giveaway pens (was: I Need Advice) In-Reply-To: <14405.910497101@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Thank you again :) Do you think there is any problem with the rightmost > > column of links? they all point into the www.freebsd.org site, and I > > Not at all. Just so long as they point different places so as to be > moderately interesting. :-) > > -Jordan > (giggle) Yes, they point to the main page, handbook, faq, and man pages cgi :) I thought it would be nice to provide some quick references for people just stumbling into the FreeBSD area for the first time :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/ ] [ IrcNick : Licia ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Why crawl through windows when you can walk through a door? ] [ This user boycotts all Microsoft products and services ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message