From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 01:58:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26171 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:58:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles336.castles.com [208.214.167.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26163 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:58:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04355 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 00:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Irritating cpp feature Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:53:48 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm coming across an irritating cpp feature trying to port a large body of foreign code; namely: #if 0 This is pointless text with one of ' in it. #endif Despite the #if-fing out, the quote is still parsed. Unfortunately, this conflicts with a substantial body of #if'd documentation, which contains (you guessed it) more comment delimiters. The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there something funny about our preprocessor? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 05:14:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21087 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:14:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806071214.FAA21087@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-hackers-outgoing Subject: Conversion to VMailer freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, please sort on the "Sender: " header. (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) this is a trial change, if all goes well, we will remain with VMailer, otherwise we will return to Sendmail. VMailer has been tested on freebsd-chat for over two weeks. the only issue was people sorting on headers other than Sender: jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 05:34:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22800 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:34:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22735; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806071233.FAA22735@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer In-Reply-To: <19980607142849.55764@insl2.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de> from Olaf Erb at "Jun 7, 98 02:28:49 pm" To: erb@inss1.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG no this is clearly a problem. i have reverted the list to sendmail until i can identify the problem. jmb Olaf Erb wrote: > On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 05:14:08AM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) > > How should this work, with a Sender: daemon@freebsd.org line? > > I use the Sender: field to put the lists into different folder, like > > * ^Sender.*owner-.*stable@.*freebsd.org > freebsd-stable > > If this remains, fine, if not - which field is appropriate to distinguish > the different lists? > > Thanks, > Olaf > -- > Don't mistake lack of talent for genius. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 05:43:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23768 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:43:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flarn.dyn.ml.org (mph@usr341.third-wave.com [147.72.122.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA23763 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@flarn.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from mph@localhost) by flarn.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00293; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:44:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980607084415.A261@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:44:15 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature References: <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:53:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:53:48AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > #if 0 > This is pointless text with one of ' in it. > #endif [...] > The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there > something funny about our preprocessor? I think there is something correct about our preprocessor. I Don't Have The Standard In Front Of Me (TM) but I think code that is #ifdef'ed out must still be syntactically correct, so the sample that you provided above is incorrect code. If somebody is using #ifdef around English text, that is wrong. Anybody with the Standard care to verify? The only one I have is the reprint of the Library portion of the Standard in Plauger's book. -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 06:38:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28469 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 06:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mexcom.net (ver2-96.uninet.net.mx [200.38.135.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA28458; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 06:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx) Received: from mc.mexcom.net (telmex@ppp-4.mexcom.net [206.103.65.196]) by ns.mexcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19904; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:34:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <357A986A.6B7FFA4F@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 08:40:58 -0500 From: Edwin Culp Organization: Mexico Communicates, S.A. de C.V. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer References: <199806071214.FAA21087@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Have any idea when there will be a vmailer port? thanks ed Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) > > this is a trial change, if all goes well, we will remain with VMailer, > otherwise we will return to Sendmail. > > VMailer has been tested on freebsd-chat for over two weeks. > the only issue was people sorting on headers other than Sender: > > jmb > > -- > Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG > FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ > PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 07:19:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03617 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 07:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA03605 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 07:19:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13058; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 07:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Open Systems Networking cc: Wolfram Schneider , dg@root.com, Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: annual USENIX conference, any plans? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:52:39 EDT." Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 07:17:39 -0700 Message-ID: <13054.897229059@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As a side note, are the people giving talks going to be making their > papers and slides available on say a central freebsd.org page? I highly doubt it. You expect a far more organized approach to this than typically exists in nature. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 07:31:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: from colin.muc.de (root@colin.muc.de [193.174.4.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA04970; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 07:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lutz@muc.de) Received: from tavari.muc.de ([193.174.4.22]) by colin.muc.de with SMTP id <140567-2>; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:23:42 +0200 Received: from muc.de (abraxas [192.168.42.5]) by tavari.muc.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09326; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:53:56 +0200 (CEST) Sender: lutz@muc.de Message-ID: <357A8D64.5FABF396@muc.de> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:53:56 +0200 From: Lutz Albers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: freebsd-hackers-outgoing@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer References: <199806071214.FAA21087@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) ... which just contains daemon@freebsd.org. This is somewhat unwieldy if you want to sort articles from different mailing lists to seperate mailboxes ... -- Lutz Albers, lutz@muc.de Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive. From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 07:46:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA06766 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 07:46:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA06746; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 07:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08459; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:46:04 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA14605; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:45:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980607164518.18704@follo.net> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:45:18 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernfs/procfs questions... References: <19980606162110.46376@follo.net> <199806061853.LAA22360@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199806061853.LAA22360@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 06:53:44PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 06:53:44PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > I've run with them here for a week without any problem (under various > > loads), and I'm waiting for Peter Wemm to test them under NFS. If > > they pass, I guess they might be safe enough to commit - I don't think > > they should be able to cause heavy instability. I don't claim to > > understand all interactions in the FS area, though, so I feel slightly > > uncomfortable... > > It's a plate of wet spaghetti. You have to pull one strand at a time > and lay it out straight to have any hope of it fitting neatly into the > box it came in (John Heidemann's design). 8-|. In case somebody doesn't have the papers on this design (I assume you have all of the below), they are available from Heidemann's homepage at http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/ The ACM TOCS paper on stackable layers (the prime reference) is described on this page, along with references to postscript copies: http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/PAPERS/Heidemann93b.html > Are your vput changes available to be looked at anywhere? http://www.freebsd.org/~eivind/vput-proc.patch Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 08:06:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11055 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (antiochus-fe0.ultra.net [146.115.8.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10958 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from moncrg@ma.ultranet.com) Received: from micron (d128.dial-2.cmb.ma.ultra.net [209.6.65.128]) by antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with SMTP id LAA03910; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002301bd9225$f1527480$804106d1@micron> From: "Gregory D Moncreaff" To: "Matthew Hunt" , "Mike Smith" , Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:07:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BD9204.6912B4C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BD9204.6912B4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit you can put anything you want in an #if 0/#endif block. by definition, the preprocessor deletes such before the compiler (which is the only thing that checks code syntax) even sees it -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hunt To: Mike Smith ; hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature >On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:53:48AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > >> #if 0 >> This is pointless text with one of ' in it. >> #endif >[...] >> The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there >> something funny about our preprocessor? > >I think there is something correct about our preprocessor. I Don't >Have The Standard In Front Of Me (TM) but I think code that is >#ifdef'ed out must still be syntactically correct, so the sample that >you provided above is incorrect code. If somebody is using #ifdef >around English text, that is wrong. > >Anybody with the Standard care to verify? The only one I have is >the reprint of the Library portion of the Standard in Plauger's book. > >-- >Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. >http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BD9204.6912B4C0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Gregory Donald Moncreaff.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Gregory Donald Moncreaff.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Moncreaff;Gregory;Donald; FN:Gregory Donald Moncreaff TEL;WORK;VOICE:508=3D490-2048 TEL;WORK;FAX:508-490-2086 ADR;HOME:;;po box 388;Marlborough;Massachusetts;01752-0388 LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:po box 388=3D0D=3D0AMarlborough, = Massachusetts 01752-0388 EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:moncrg@ma.ultranet.com REV:19980607T150706Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BD9204.6912B4C0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 08:08:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11300 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11196; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id RAA16044; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:07:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:07:51 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: erb@inss1.etec.uni-karlsruhe.de, hackers@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer References: <199806071233.FAA22735@hub.freebsd.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-email-address-1: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (for private or study-related mail) X-email-address-2: dagsm@hypnotech.no (for job-related mail) X-email-address-3: des@FreeBSD.org (for FreeBSD-related mail) X-email-address-4: finrod@ewox.org (for demoscene-related mail) X-disclaimer-1: I speak only for myself. The views expressed in this message X-disclaimer-2: are not those of the University of Oslo, the FreeBSD project, X-disclaimer-3: or any other organization or company to which I am or have at X-disclaimer-4: some time been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 07 Jun 1998 17:07:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler"'s message of "Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:33:59 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: > no this is clearly a problem. > i have reverted the list to sendmail > until i can identify the problem. I'm surprised to hear that there is a problem at all. I sort my FreeBSD mail on Sender - I always have - and have experienced no problems whatsoever. For the record, everything I have received from -hackers for the last week has "Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG". -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 08:15:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA12843 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12804 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id RAA16423; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:14:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:14:20 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt Cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature References: <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com> <19980607084415.A261@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-email-address-1: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (for private or study-related mail) X-email-address-2: dagsm@hypnotech.no (for job-related mail) X-email-address-3: des@FreeBSD.org (for FreeBSD-related mail) X-email-address-4: finrod@ewox.org (for demoscene-related mail) X-disclaimer-1: I speak only for myself. The views expressed in this message X-disclaimer-2: are not those of the University of Oslo, the FreeBSD project, X-disclaimer-3: or any other organization or company to which I am or have at X-disclaimer-4: some time been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 07 Jun 1998 17:14:20 +0200 In-Reply-To: Matthew Hunt's message of "Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:44:15 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 23 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew Hunt writes: > On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:53:48AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > > #if 0 > > This is pointless text with one of ' in it. > > #endif > [...] > > The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there > > something funny about our preprocessor? > > I think there is something correct about our preprocessor. I Don't > Have The Standard In Front Of Me (TM) but I think code that is > #ifdef'ed out must still be syntactically correct, so the sample that > you provided above is incorrect code. If somebody is using #ifdef > around English text, that is wrong. I can't find anything specific in the draft proposal, but common sense says it has to be at least *lexically* correct (and a single quote with no correpsonding closing quote is not lexically correct) unless your preprocessor is built around a DWIM engine :) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 09:11:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21724 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.force9.co.uk [195.166.136.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21619 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:11:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10140; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:53:11 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199806071453.PAA10140@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Mike Smith cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:53:48 PDT." <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 15:53:11 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'm coming across an irritating cpp feature trying to port a large body > of foreign code; namely: > > > #if 0 > This is pointless text with one of ' in it. > #endif > > Despite the #if-fing out, the quote is still parsed. Unfortunately, > this conflicts with a substantial body of #if'd documentation, which > contains (you guessed it) more comment delimiters. > > The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there > something funny about our preprocessor? I've seen this before.... it caused me a lot of problems when I first used (IRRC) version 2.7.*. I wrote a script to parse ~400000 lines of code and change the ' to a ", rebuilt and the problem went away. I thought it happened only for // This code isn't here Afterwards, I realised that I'd made a mistake in the script and missed a load of should-be-offenders.... but they compiled correctly ! I never got 'round to figuring out what exactly was going on (I got permanently side-tracked in a new job), but it wasn't easily reproducible :-( > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 09:22:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23871 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:22:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23738 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id QAA14266; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:43:13 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199806071443.QAA14266@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: annual USENIX conference, any plans? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:43:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org, dg@root.com, itojun@itojun.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13054.897229059@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 98 07:17:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > As a side note, are the people giving talks going to be making their > > papers and slides available on say a central freebsd.org page? > > I highly doubt it. You expect a far more organized approach to this > than typically exists in nature. :-) not only that. i prefer people to go to my web page, so that they can find much more stuff and more up to date, and I have to manage things only in one place. cheers luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 09:27:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24902 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:27:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24785 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA13243; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:01:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199806071601.MAA13243@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature In-Reply-To: <002301bd9225$f1527480$804106d1@micron> from Gregory D Moncreaff at "Jun 7, 98 11:07:07 am" To: moncrg@ma.ultranet.com (Gregory D Moncreaff) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Cc: mph@pobox.com, mike@smith.net.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > you can put anything you want in an #if 0/#endif block. > by definition, the preprocessor deletes such before the compiler > (which is the only thing that checks code syntax) > even sees it Not true according to info gcc. However, -traditional works around it: * GNU CC complains about unterminated character constants inside of preprocessing conditionals that fail. Some programs have English comments enclosed in conditionals that are guaranteed to fail; if these comments contain apostrophes, GNU CC will probably report an error. For example, this code would produce an error: #if 0 You can't expect this to work. #endif The best solution to such a problem is to put the text into an actual C comment delimited by `/*...*/'. However, `-traditional' suppresses these error messages. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 09:40:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27234 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.camalott.com (root@[208.203.140.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27221 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joelh@gnu.org) Received: from detlev.UUCP (tex-109.camalott.com [208.229.74.109] (may be forged)) by mail.camalott.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA25450; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:39:23 -0500 Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17751; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:40:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:40:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806071640.LAA17751@detlev.UUCP> To: mike@smith.net.au CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com> (message from Mike Smith on Sun, 07 Jun 1998 00:53:48 -0700) Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org References: <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm coming across an irritating cpp feature trying to port a large body > of foreign code; namely: > #if 0 > This is pointless text with one of ' in it. > #endif > Despite the #if-fing out, the quote is still parsed. Unfortunately, > this conflicts with a substantial body of #if'd documentation, which > contains (you guessed it) more comment delimiters. > The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there > something funny about our preprocessor? According to ANSI C, anything in an #if / #endif must still be, up to a point, valid C syntax. The fact that most preprocessors assume that all quotes are matched is irrelevant. I hate to break it to you, Mike, but it's invalid code. Now, that said, I'll look at fixing your problem. :-) Are you using the same version of gcc on said other gcc-wielding platforms? I wouldn't be suprised if cpp has changed in the interim. Depending on the code, it may be trivial to write a quick sed/awk/perl script to mung it into conformity. (I wouldn't mind taking that on as an exercise myself if you're busy; I might have use for it elsewhere.) Happy hacking, joelh -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 09:49:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28711 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:49:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28694 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id MAA03887; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:48:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Luigi Rizzo cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org, dg@root.com, itojun@itojun.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: annual USENIX conference, any plans? In-Reply-To: <199806071443.QAA14266@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > not only that. i prefer people to go to my web page, so that they > can find much more stuff and more up to date, and I have to > manage things only in one place. And thats fine, but some of them dont have pages like that. Like justin and others, or at least there not known to the majority of us :) Maybe jordan could take a camcorder and record the conference and sell the tapes :) Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 09:54:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29743 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29716 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13847; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:54:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Open Systems Networking cc: Luigi Rizzo , wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org, dg@root.com, itojun@itojun.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: annual USENIX conference, any plans? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 12:48:46 EDT." Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:54:03 -0700 Message-ID: <13842.897238443@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > And thats fine, but some of them dont have pages like that. Like justin > and others, or at least there not known to the majority of us :) > Maybe jordan could take a camcorder and record the conference and sell the > tapes :) Yeah, in your dreams, buddy. :-) Hey, if anyone wants to take a camera and film the event then they're most welcome, but I'm going to have more than enough to worry about at this show as it is. If you want to know what goes on at these things, then _come to the conference_ :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 10:05:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01605 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.camalott.com (root@[208.203.140.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01600 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joelh@gnu.org) Received: from detlev.UUCP (tex-109.camalott.com [208.229.74.109] (may be forged)) by mail.camalott.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26282; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:04:17 -0500 Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17835; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:05:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:05:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806071705.MAA17835@detlev.UUCP> To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no CC: mph@pobox.com, mike@smith.net.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org References: <199806070753.AAA04355@antipodes.cdrom.com> <19980607084415.A261@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> I think there is something correct about our preprocessor. I Don't >> Have The Standard In Front Of Me (TM) but I think code that is >> #ifdef'ed out must still be syntactically correct, so the sample that >> you provided above is incorrect code. If somebody is using #ifdef >> around English text, that is wrong. > I can't find anything specific in the draft proposal, but common sense > says it has to be at least *lexically* correct (and a single quote > with no correpsonding closing quote is not lexically correct) unless > your preprocessor is built around a DWIM engine :) ANSI dictates that the #if'd out code must still consist of "valid preprocessing tokens". Since the preprocessor will tokenize string and char literals, then that is correct. (References: ANSI X3.159-1989 Sec. 2.1.1.2 & Sec. 3.1, ISO 9899:1990 Sec. 5.1.1.2 & Sec. 6.1, comp.lang.c FAQ 11.19, _C:_A_Reference_Manual_ (Harbison & Steele) Sec. 3.2 p40.) The draft 5.1.1.2 still shows the tokenizing performed before preprocessing directive execution. None of this helps Mike compile the program, but at least we don't need to be concerned that our preprocessor isn't compliant. Happy hacking, joelh -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 10:07:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01845 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01746 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12046; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:06:04 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA16300; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:05:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980607190517.23293@follo.net> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:05:17 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Gregory D Moncreaff , Matthew Hunt , Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature References: <002301bd9225$f1527480$804106d1@micron> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <002301bd9225$f1527480$804106d1@micron>; from Gregory D Moncreaff on Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:07:07AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:07:07AM -0400, Gregory D Moncreaff wrote: > you can put anything you want in an #if 0/#endif block. > by definition, the preprocessor deletes such before the compiler > (which is the only thing that checks code syntax) > even sees it This is a common misconception. Your statement is completely false. It must be lexically correct - the relevant reference is 5.1.1.2 in the draft standard. I'm reproducing it here for your convenience (see specifically the difference between phase 3 and phase 4): 5.1.1.2 Translation phases The precedence among the syntax rules of translation is specified by the following phases.[5] 1. Physical source file multibyte characters are mapped to the source character set (introducing new-line characters for end-of-line indicators) if necessary. Any multibyte source file character not in the basic source character set is replaced by the universal-character-name that designates that multibyte character.[6] Then, trigraph sequences are replaced by corresponding single-character internal representations. 2. Each instance of a backslash character immediately followed by a newline character is deleted, splicing physical source lines to form logical source lines. Only the last backslash on any physical source line shall be eligible for being part of such a splice. A source file that is not empty shall end in a new-line character, which shall not be immediately preceded by a backslash character before any such splicing takes place. 3. The source file is decomposed into preprocessing tokens[7] and sequences of white-space characters (including comments). A source file shall not end in a partial preprocessing token or comment. Each comment is replaced by one space character. New-line characters are retained. Whether each nonempty sequence of white-space characters other than new-line is retained or replaced by one space character is implementation-defined. 4. Preprocessing directives are executed, macro invocations are expanded, and pragma unary operator expressions are executed. If a character sequence that matches the syntax of a universal-character-name is produced by token concatenation (6.8.3.3), the behavior is undefined. A #include preprocessing directive causes the named header or source file to be processed from phase 1 through phase 4, recursively. All preprocessing directives are then deleted. 5. Each source character set member, escape sequence, and universal-character- name in character constants and string literals is converted to a member of the execution character set. 6. Adjacent character string literal tokens are concatenated and adjacent wide string literal tokens are concatenated. 7. White-space characters separating tokens are no longer significant. Each preprocessing token is converted into a token. The resulting tokens are syntactically and semantically analyzed and translated as a translation unit. 8. All external object and function references are resolved. Library components are linked to satisfy external references to functions and objects not defined in the current translation. All such translator output is collected into a program image which contains information needed for execution in its execution environment. ------ [5] Implementations must behave as if these separate phases occur, even though many are typically folded together in practice. [6] The process of handling extended characters is specified in terms of mapping to an encoding that uses only the basic source character set, and, in the case of character literals and strings, further mapping to the execution character set. In practical terms, however, any internal encoding may be used, so long as an actual extended character encountered in the input, and the same extended character expressed in the input as a universal-character-name (i.e., using the \U or \u notation), are handled equivalently. [7] As described in 6.1, the process of dividing a source file's characters into preprocessing tokens is context-dependent. For example, see the handling of < within a #include preprocessing directive. The compilation of a program such as Mike's specifically require a diagnostic; this is in 5.1.1.3 section 1. Now, can we all cut this discussion at this point? Thanks. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 10:28:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06092 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles336.castles.com [208.214.167.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06063 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06442; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806071624.JAA06442@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Matthew Hunt cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 08:44:15 EDT." <19980607084415.A261@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:24:06 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 12:53:48AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > > #if 0 > > This is pointless text with one of ' in it. > > #endif > [...] > > The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there > > something funny about our preprocessor? > > I think there is something correct about our preprocessor. I Don't > Have The Standard In Front Of Me (TM) but I think code that is > #ifdef'ed out must still be syntactically correct, so the sample that > you provided above is incorrect code. If somebody is using #ifdef > around English text, that is wrong. > > Anybody with the Standard care to verify? The only one I have is > the reprint of the Library portion of the Standard in Plauger's book. Whilst I respsect our desire to be correct, my chances of convincing the "owners" of this code to DTRT are almost vanishingly small, especially since much of the offending code comes from third parties. Given that the product builds on all of the major Unix platforms as well as Win32 without this problem, I really need a workaround. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 10:47:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09502 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:47:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles336.castles.com [208.214.167.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09489 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06549; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 09:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806071642.JAA06549@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: joelh@gnu.org cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 11:40:15 CDT." <199806071640.LAA17751@detlev.UUCP> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 09:42:43 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'm coming across an irritating cpp feature trying to port a large body > > of foreign code; namely: > > #if 0 > > This is pointless text with one of ' in it. > > #endif > > Despite the #if-fing out, the quote is still parsed. Unfortunately, > > this conflicts with a substantial body of #if'd documentation, which > > contains (you guessed it) more comment delimiters. > > The code obviously builds OK on other gcc-wielding platforms; is there > > something funny about our preprocessor? > > According to ANSI C, anything in an #if / #endif must still be, up to > a point, valid C syntax. The fact that most preprocessors assume that > all quotes are matched is irrelevant. I hate to break it to you, > Mike, but it's invalid code. Now, that said, I'll look at fixing your > problem. :-) This is the least of my quibbles with the quality of the code in question, but I don't have the time to get too carried away "fixing" a source tree that bulks over 500MB. > Are you using the same version of gcc on said other gcc-wielding > platforms? I wouldn't be suprised if cpp has changed in the interim. The code is known to build on current Linux systems. The cpp barfage comes from 'cc -E', being invoked by a (their) custom prototype generator. It sounds like I can just tweak the cpp invocation to suppress this (it may also deal with the '...' construct in similar circumstances causing problems). > Depending on the code, it may be trivial to write a quick sed/awk/perl > script to mung it into conformity. (I wouldn't mind taking that on as > an exercise myself if you're busy; I might have use for it elsewhere.) If I were to do that, my chances of ever having the port enter their mainstream would be absolutely zero. 8( -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 11:59:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18686 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18632 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15053; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:59:28 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA19019; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:58:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980607205843.10503@follo.net> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:58:43 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Mike Smith , Matthew Hunt Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature References: <19980607084415.A261@flarn.dyn.ml.org> <199806071624.JAA06442@antipodes.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199806071624.JAA06442@antipodes.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 09:24:06AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 09:24:06AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > Whilst I respsect our desire to be correct, my chances of convincing > the "owners" of this code to DTRT are almost vanishingly small, > especially since much of the offending code comes from third parties. > > Given that the product builds on all of the major Unix platforms as > well as Win32 without this problem, I really need a workaround. 8) gcc -traditional Lemme guess: You're attempting to port some large, commercial package? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 12:29:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23142 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:29:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23113; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:29:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806071929.MAA23113@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer In-Reply-To: <357A986A.6B7FFA4F@ver1.telmex.net.mx> from Edwin Culp at "Jun 7, 98 08:40:58 am" To: eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx (Edwin Culp) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Edwin Culp wrote: > Have any idea when there will be a vmailer port? > Once Wietse Venema releases VMailer. there will be a port. i dont know when Wietse will release VMailer. jmb > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) > > > > this is a trial change, if all goes well, we will remain with VMailer, > > otherwise we will return to Sendmail. > > > > VMailer has been tested on freebsd-chat for over two weeks. > > the only issue was people sorting on headers other than Sender: > > > > jmb > > > > -- > > Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG > > FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ > > PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 12:50:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: from Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (ulf@gatekeeper.Alameda.net [207.90.181.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25773; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:50:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.9.0/8.8.6) id MAA26434; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980607125029.F18690@Alameda.net> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:50:29 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: Lutz Albers , "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: freebsd-hackers-outgoing@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net References: <199806071214.FAA21087@hub.freebsd.org> <357A8D64.5FABF396@muc.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <357A8D64.5FABF396@muc.de>; from Lutz Albers on Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 02:53:56PM +0200 Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 02:53:56PM +0200, Lutz Albers wrote: > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) > > ... which just contains daemon@freebsd.org. This is somewhat unwieldy if > you want to sort articles from different mailing lists to seperate > mailboxes ... I think, that Jonathan shouldn't send it to freebsd-hackers-outgoing, as that means not to use majordomo at all. > > > > -- > Lutz Albers, lutz@muc.de > Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive. -- Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 13:03:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27899 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27879 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:03:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20514 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:02:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: ben@rosengart.com To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: top doesn't know a process's time? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've never seen this before -- under the "TIME" header, top just has three question marks for this process. Could it have something to do with the process being multithreaded? last pid: 305; load averages: 0.57, 0.31, 0.20 15:58:50 44 processes: 2 running, 41 sleeping, 1 stopped CPU states: 8.9% user, 91.1% nice, 0.0% system, 0.0% interrupt, 0.0% idle Mem: 27M Active, 11M Inact, 14M Wired, 24M Cache, 8341K Buf, 17M Free Swap: 192M Total, 256K Used, 192M Free PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 287 ben 105 19 840K 608K RUN ??? 85.18% 85.18% rc5des Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 13:21:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00586 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:21:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.camalott.com (root@[208.203.140.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00581 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joelh@gnu.org) Received: from detlev.UUCP (tex-109.camalott.com [208.229.74.109] (may be forged)) by mail.camalott.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01264; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:20:39 -0500 Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18398; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:21:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:21:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806072021.PAA18398@detlev.UUCP> To: dufault@hda.com CC: moncrg@ma.ultranet.com, mph@pobox.com, mike@smith.net.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199806071601.MAA13243@hda.hda.com> (message from Peter Dufault on Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:01:54 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org References: <199806071601.MAA13243@hda.hda.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> you can put anything you want in an #if 0/#endif block. >> by definition, the preprocessor deletes such before the compiler >> (which is the only thing that checks code syntax) >> even sees it > Not true according to info gcc. However, -traditional > works around it: > The best solution to such a problem is to put the text into an > actual C comment delimited by `/*...*/'. However, `-traditional' > suppresses these error messages. Note that with gcc 2.8, you may prefer -traditional-cpp. This does have some other syntactic implications, of course. Happy hacking, joelh -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 13:26:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01152 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01032 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26103; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd026100; Sun Jun 7 20:24:42 1998 Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:24:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Mike Smith cc: joelh@gnu.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature In-Reply-To: <199806071642.JAA06549@antipodes.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG what is the code? julian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 13:33:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02005; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806072033.NAA02005@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer In-Reply-To: <19980607125029.F18690@Alameda.net> from Ulf Zimmermann at "Jun 7, 98 12:50:29 pm" To: ulf@Alameda.net Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: lutz@muc.de, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers-outgoing@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 02:53:56PM +0200, Lutz Albers wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > > > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > > > > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > > > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > > > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) > > > > ... which just contains daemon@freebsd.org. This is somewhat unwieldy if > > you want to sort articles from different mailing lists to seperate > > mailboxes ... > > I think, that Jonathan shouldn't send it to freebsd-hackers-outgoing, > as that means not to use majordomo at all. shhhh.....your revealing secrets ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 13:38:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02971 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:38:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles125.castles.com [208.214.165.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02894 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:38:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA06941; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806071933.MAA06941@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Eivind Eklund cc: Mike Smith , Matthew Hunt , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 20:58:43 +0200." <19980607205843.10503@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 12:33:49 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 09:24:06AM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > Whilst I respsect our desire to be correct, my chances of convincing > > the "owners" of this code to DTRT are almost vanishingly small, > > especially since much of the offending code comes from third parties. > > > > Given that the product builds on all of the major Unix platforms as > > well as Win32 without this problem, I really need a workaround. 8) > > gcc -traditional This exposes a spurious __signed in (2.2.6-RELEASE). I can work around this though. > Lemme guess: You're attempting to port some large, commercial package? Gosh, was it that obvious? 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 13:45:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03975 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dan.emsphone.com (dan@dan.emsphone.com [199.67.51.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03939 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:45:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@dan.emsphone.com) Received: (from dan@localhost) by dan.emsphone.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11090; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:44:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dan) Message-ID: <19980607154451.A10961@emsphone.com> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:44:51 -0500 From: Dan Nelson To: ben@rosengart.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: top doesn't know a process's time? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.8i In-Reply-To: ; from "Snob Art Genre" on Sun Jun 7 16:02:55 GMT 1998 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the last episode (Jun 07), Snob Art Genre said: > I've never seen this before -- under the "TIME" header, top just has > three question marks for this process. Could it have something to do > with the process being multithreaded? I doubt it. How long has the process been running? > > PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND > 287 ben 105 19 840K 608K RUN ??? 85.18% 85.18% rc5des PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 2248 dan 105 19 836K 332K RUN 122.3H 96.09% 96.09% rc5desbsd I could imagine it having a problem when the field hits "9999.9". In fact, in /usr/src/contrib/top/utils.c, line ~375 seems to check against seconds > (99999*360), which is close enough. How long HAS that process been running??? To trigger the "???" code, it would have to be running for over a year? -Dan Nelson dnelson@emsphone.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 14:02:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06340 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06211 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:01:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00972; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:01:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: ben@rosengart.com To: Dan Nelson cc: ben@rosengart.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: top doesn't know a process's time? In-Reply-To: <19980607154451.A10961@emsphone.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Dan Nelson wrote: > In the last episode (Jun 07), Snob Art Genre said: > > I've never seen this before -- under the "TIME" header, top just has > > three question marks for this process. Could it have something to do > > with the process being multithreaded? > > I doubt it. How long has the process been running? A few seconds, when I checked. *snip* > How long HAS that process been running??? To trigger the "???" code, > it would have to be running for over a year? After I sent my question, I noticed that all my processes have unreasonable times. I suspect a kernel/userland mismatch and am rebuilding the world right now. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 14:59:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12881 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12870 for hackers; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806072159.OAA12870@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: FORTH--any good books? To: hackers Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:59:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Starting FORTH" was recommended, but it seems to be out of print. any other recommendations? jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 15:16:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14802 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA14715 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:15:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yinik-0003wV-00; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:15:22 -0600 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA04764 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:15:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806072215.QAA04764@harmony.village.org> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD daemon icons Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 16:15:26 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm looking for good, semi-official, low color (4-10) icons for the FreeBSD project (the beastie or chuckie creature that appears on the cdroms, etc). I need resolutions in the 32x32 size as well as the 16x16 size. qvwm uses an icon from the M company and I'd like to change it, at least on my local machine, to the FreeBSD daemon. xpm format is best. Anybody have some good pointers? I have one line art drawing of an appropriate resolution, but it looks really cheezy (since I drew it based on the beastie bitmaps that were at Kirk's site). Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 16:06:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19884 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:06:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from keaggy.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19878; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by keaggy.canonware.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18289; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:03:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Evans To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FORTH--any good books? In-Reply-To: <199806072159.OAA12870@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > "Starting FORTH" was recommended, but it seems to be out of print. > > any other recommendations? I spent quite a bit of time looking for good Forth books a while back, and had very little luck finding stuff that was still in print. The only promising thing I found that I didn't follow up on was: http://www.forth.com/Content/Handbook/Handbook.html I'm guessing that this book is quite good, but I can't say for sure since I don't have it. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Web: [http://www.canonware.com/~jasone] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 16:15:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20619 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:15:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (b+tqrhm5Ib7XmhIB2bp7HIo5gSAAcHFF@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20613; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 16:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id SAA17064; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:15:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01816; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:09:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:09:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FORTH--any good books? In-Reply-To: <199806072159.OAA12870@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >"Starting FORTH" was recommended, but it seems to be out of print. > >any other recommendations? How about "Mastering Forth" by Martin Tracy, Anita Anderson and Advanced MicroMotion, Inc.? Published by Brady, ISBN 0-13-559957-1. It was copyright 1989 and went through 10 printings when I bought it. Don't know if it's still available or not. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 20:11:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14128 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from roma.coe.ufrj.br (jonny@roma.coe.ufrj.br [146.164.53.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13907; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonny@jonny.eng.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by roma.coe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11012; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:10:12 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199806080310.AAA11012@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Transparent packet diversion: Where is it? In-Reply-To: <35773444.59E2B600@whistle.com> from Julian Elischer at "Jun 4, 98 04:56:52 pm" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:10:11 -0300 (EST) Cc: ghelmer@scl.ameslab.gov, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, net@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG #define quoting(Julian Elischer) // > This code mostly adds support to the ipfw interface and code to support // > two things, which are based on the same thing: // > // > * Directing INCOMING traffic that match rules to a LOCAL TCP port. // > This is intended for transparent proxying without external calls // > to a LKM, it also doesn't touch the packet, so getsockname() works // > so there's also no need for a subsequent IOCTL to work out what the // > original destination/port was. // > It's freaky seeing random remote IP's listed as "Local addresses" // > in netstat! BSD-router-speed transparent diversion... :-) // > // > * Modifying the next-hop address of OUTBOUND traffic that matches the // > rule. My intention for this is to direct web traffic from a core // > router to a transparent proxy. David Sharnoff also wanted something // > similar, and the functionality of this thus extends to doing a route // > table lookup on the specified next-hop and using the route to it, // > meaning the next-hop doesn't need to be on a directly reachable // > interface. Remember though, this code only forwards to a directly // > reachable machine! It doesn't deliver it to the specified next-hop! // > TCP port numbers are ignored if this rule comes into affect. Cool !!! When will this be added to the main source tree ? :) Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 20:16:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15879 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:16:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iworks.InterWorks.org (deischen@iworks.interworks.org [128.255.18.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15783 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org) Received: (from deischen@localhost) by iworks.InterWorks.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01190; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:16:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:16:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "Daniel M. Eischen" Message-Id: <199806080316.WAA01190@iworks.InterWorks.org> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jb@cimlogic.com.au Subject: Re: ___error changes break CDE and mwm Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Daniel M. Eischen wrote: > > > > The recent changes to ___error have broken CDE (dtwm) and mwm (SWiM). I > > am left without my favorite window managers. OK, I can cope with this. > > But unless there is a planned remedy for this, I think there will be some > > unhappy campers, especially since Xig doesn't seem to be supporting CDE > > on FreeBSD anymore, when 3.0 is released. > > What does ldd say the dependencies are? > > I still think we need to bump all the shared library version numbers. bash-2.02$ ldd /usr/X11R6/bin/mwm /usr/X11R6/bin/mwm: -lXm.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXm.so.1.2 (0x2004c000) -lXintl.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXintl.so.6.1 (0x201d1000) -lXt.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6.0 (0x201d7000) -lSM.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6.0 (0x20213000) -lICE.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6.3 (0x2021b000) -lXext.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6.3 (0x2022c000) -lX11.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 (0x20235000) -lc.2 => /usr/lib/aout/libc.so.2.2 (0x202c6000) bash-2.02$ ldd /usr/dt/bin/dtwm /usr/dt/bin/dtwm: -lDtHelp.1 => not found (0x0) -lDtWidget.1 => not found (0x0) -lDtSvc.1 => not found (0x0) -ltt.2 => not found (0x0) -lXm.1 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXm.so.1.2 (0x20087000) -lXintl.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXintl.so.6.1 (0x2020c000) -lXt.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXt.so.6.0 (0x20212000) -lSM.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libSM.so.6.0 (0x2024e000) -lICE.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libICE.so.6.3 (0x20256000) -lXext.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libXext.so.6.3 (0x20267000) -lX11.6 => /usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 (0x20270000) -lm.2 => /usr/lib/aout/libm.so.2.0 (0x20301000) -lc.2 => /usr/lib/aout/libc.so.2.2 (0x2031c000) Before today, I was running X11 from CDE. Buat after the upgrade, CDE's xterm was broke by the ___error change. So I rebuilt XFree86 from source to get xterm and libraries. Installing these broke dtwm and mwm: bash-2.02$ /usr/dt/bin/dtwm /usr/libexec/ld.so: Undefined symbol "___error" called from dtwm:/usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 at 0x204d2610 bash-2.02$ /usr/X11R6/bin/mwm /usr/libexec/ld.so: Undefined symbol "___error" called from mwm:/usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 at 0x202c2610 I think you're suppose to be able to run XFree86 and CDE, but definitely not now. Reverting back to X11 from CDE should at least let me run the window manager, but I'll have to use a newer xterm (and perhaps a few other apps). Actually, just backing out to CDEs libX11.a/libX11.so.6.1 let's me run mwm, but dtwm/dtgreet/dtlogin are still busted apparently from other libraries. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 20:27:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18428 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:27:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18414 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA06566; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:29:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199806080329.NAA06566@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: ___error changes break CDE and mwm In-Reply-To: <199806080316.WAA01190@iworks.InterWorks.org> from "Daniel M. Eischen" at "Jun 7, 98 10:16:19 pm" To: deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org (Daniel M. Eischen) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:29:55 +1000 (EST) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, jb@cimlogic.com.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel M. Eischen wrote: > > bash-2.02$ /usr/dt/bin/dtwm > /usr/libexec/ld.so: Undefined symbol "___error" called from dtwm:/usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 at 0x204d2610 > bash-2.02$ /usr/X11R6/bin/mwm > /usr/libexec/ld.so: Undefined symbol "___error" called from mwm:/usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 at 0x202c2610 > > I think you're suppose to be able to run XFree86 and CDE, but definitely > not now. Reverting back to X11 from CDE should at least let me run the > window manager, but I'll have to use a newer xterm (and perhaps a few > other apps). Actually, just backing out to CDEs libX11.a/libX11.so.6.1 > let's me run mwm, but dtwm/dtgreet/dtlogin are still busted apparently > from other libraries. In your case, the XFree86 library versions need to be bumped to avoid this problem. But of course that will prevent dtwm and mwm from using the newer libraries (which defeats what you were trying to achieve). So the answer is "don't do that". 8-) FWIW, the __error change is designed to allow threaded programs to make X11 calls in threads other than the initial thread. Anyone who has being doing this before now will find that all the library functions spam errno. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 20:49:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21512 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:49:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from grebe.Stanford.EDU (grebe.Stanford.EDU [171.64.68.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21506 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:49:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from katz@grebe.Stanford.EDU) Received: (from katz@localhost) by grebe.Stanford.EDU (8.8.4/8.7.1) id UAA29145 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:49:12 -0700 From: "Edward P. Katz" Message-Id: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> Subject: Newbie 3 questions. To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:49:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, I'm considering plunging into FreeBSD rather than LINUX and would like to ask 3 questions: 1. First, does FreeBSD X windows support multiple monitors (e.g. 3 monitors and interface cards on one PC as in display:0.1, display:0.2, display:0.3)? 2. Can the COM1 serial port be configured as the console (I.e. have no monitor, but use an ASCII terminal as the system console)? 3. Folklore has it that for server kinds of applications, that FreeBSD is the way to go. But for an individual workstation applications (e.g. X Windows, X Term, etc.) LINUX gets the popular nod (at least from the sample space I've already tapped). What is your response to this, and how does X Windows under FreeBSD compare to X Windows under LINUX? Thanks, Ed Katz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 21:09:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24464 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24435 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:09:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25774; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:09:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: ben@rosengart.com To: "Edward P. Katz" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-Reply-To: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 7 Jun 1998, Edward P. Katz wrote: > Hello, > > I'm considering plunging into FreeBSD rather than LINUX and would like > to ask 3 questions: No problem, but for future reference, questions@freebsd.org is the place for this sort of thing. > 1. First, does FreeBSD X windows support multiple monitors > (e.g. 3 monitors and interface cards on one PC as in display:0.1, > display:0.2, display:0.3)? Yes. FreeBSD's X implementation is the same codebase as Linux's: XFree86. > 2. Can the COM1 serial port be configured as the console > (I.e. have no monitor, but use an ASCII terminal as the system > console)? Yes. > 3. Folklore has it that for server kinds of applications, that > FreeBSD is the way to go. But for an individual workstation > applications (e.g. X Windows, X Term, etc.) LINUX gets the > popular nod (at least from the sample space I've already tapped). > What is your response to this, and how does X Windows under > FreeBSD compare to X Windows under LINUX? There are more applications released for Linux; IMO, that is its chief advantage. However, FreeBSD can run most Linux programs under emulation, and many of them have FreeBSD-native or portable releases anyway. X itself is the same under FreeBSD as under Linux. The only exception would be if you had a window manager that runs under Linux but not FreeBSD; however, I don't know of any, and I do know of many popular window managers that run on both Linux and FreeBSD. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 21:14:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25383 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:14:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25353 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01195; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:14:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199806080414.XAA01195@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-Reply-To: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> from "Edward P. Katz" at "Jun 7, 98 08:49:11 pm" To: katz@robotics.Stanford.EDU (Edward P. Katz) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:14:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hello, > > I'm considering plunging into FreeBSD rather than LINUX and would like > to ask 3 questions: > > 1. First, does FreeBSD X windows support multiple monitors > (e.g. 3 monitors and interface cards on one PC as in display:0.1, > display:0.2, display:0.3)? > If the Xserver supports it... Otherwise, I don't know... > > 2. Can the COM1 serial port be configured as the console > (I.e. have no monitor, but use an ASCII terminal as the system > console)? > Yes. > > 3. Folklore has it that for server kinds of applications, that > FreeBSD is the way to go. But for an individual workstation > applications (e.g. X Windows, X Term, etc.) LINUX gets the > popular nod (at least from the sample space I've already tapped). > What is your response to this, and how does X Windows under > FreeBSD compare to X Windows under LINUX? > FreeBSD's niche is server applications, but as a workstation, it is also really good from an OS standpoint. FreeBSD can usually run popular commercial Linux apps, even out-performing Linux at times. FreeBSD has a massive "ports" collection, consisting of ported applications. Current count is >1500 applications pre-ported. The biggest minus (performance wise) that you'll likely notice about FreeBSD is that we have more synchronous metadata update policy on our filesystems. This can have a performance impact for massive filesystem manipulations. FreeBSD consiously chooses the conservative policy though. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sun Jun 7 23:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08670 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08654 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id GAA22913; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:11:24 GMT Message-ID: <19980607231124.G21932@nuxi.com> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:11:24 -0700 From: "David O'Brien" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: USENIX room shareing Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry to abuse the list... Any FreeBSD hackers going to be at USENIX on the Sunday the 14th and have room for one more? (only need a space Sunday night) -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 01:53:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27153 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 01:53:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (cyclone.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA26983 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 01:52:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.160]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:54:46 +0200 Received: from neuron.webmore.de (malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA00699; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:51:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 10:51:34 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com From: Malte Lance To: "Edward P. Katz" Subject: RE: Newbie 3 questions. Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 08-Jun-98 Edward P. Katz wrote: > Hello, > > I'm considering plunging into FreeBSD rather than LINUX and would like > to ask 3 questions: > > 1. First, does FreeBSD X windows support multiple monitors > (e.g. 3 monitors and interface cards on one PC as in display:0.1, > display:0.2, display:0.3)? X in general YES. For XFree86 you may need some specific X-server. > > 2. Can the COM1 serial port be configured as the console > (I.e. have no monitor, but use an ASCII terminal as the system > console)? Sure > > 3. Folklore has it that for server kinds of applications, that > FreeBSD is the way to go. But for an individual workstation > applications (e.g. X Windows, X Term, etc.) LINUX gets the > popular nod (at least from the sample space I've already tapped). > What is your response to this, and how does X Windows under > FreeBSD compare to X Windows under LINUX? Hm ... 1. Running XFree86-3.3.2 2. Heavily using Khoros-2.2.0.0 for digital-image/signal-processing. Linked it against the GL-clone MesaGL-2.6 3. Working on a high-performance volume-renderer for X (programming with XEmacs-20.4) 4. Debugging (if needed) with ddd-2.2.3 [ X-GUI for gdb and other debugger ] 5. Using StarOffice-4.0 sometimes .. => Every day impressed by the stability and performance of FreeBSD. Would you consider this to be "individual workstation applications" ? Malte. > > Thanks, > > Ed Katz > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Malte Lance Date: 08-Jun-98 Time: 10:29:08 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 02:47:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05460 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 02:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay1.fnet.fr (relay1.fnet.fr [192.134.192.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA05454 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 02:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fla@lrmh.fr) Received: by relay1.fnet.fr (5.65c8d/96.05.03) via EUnet-France id AA01953; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:47:37 +0200 (MET) Received: from ramidus.lrmh.fr by desiree.lrmh.fr with SMTP (1.38.193.4/fla-2.1) id AA13543; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:46:54 +0200 Received: by ramidus.lrmh.fr Message-Id: <19980608114650.35944@ramidus.lrmh.fr> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:46:50 +0200 From: Francois LAISSUS To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Page fault while in kernel mode Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, When I booted up my machine with 128 Mo instead of 64Mo I got a kernel panic. Here the message manually copy from screen : Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address = 0x2000 fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0xf012b4d7 stack pointer = 0x10:0xefbffba8 frame pointer = 0x10:0xefbffba8 code segment = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, def 32 1, gran 1 processor eflags = interrupt enable, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 1 (swapper) interrupt mask = bio panic : page fault -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The motherboard is an ASUS P2L97 with two DIMMs memory modules. I encounter the trouble with any of both. The boot message with only one memory module : Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc. Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE #0: Mon Jun 8 11:00:38 CEST 1998 root@clara.lrmh.fr:/usr/src/sys/compile/CLARA CPU: Pentium Pro (300.68-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x633 Stepping=3 Features=0x80f9ff real memory = 67108864 (65536K bytes) avail memory = 63365120 (61880K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0 rev 3 on pci0:0:0 chip1 rev 3 on pci0:1:0 chip2 rev 1 on pci0:4:0 chip3 rev 1 on pci0:4:1 chip4 rev 1 int d irq 10 on pci0:4:2 chip5 rev 1 on pci0:4:3 vga0 rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:10:0 ed2 rev 0 int a irq 10 on pci0:11:0 ed2: address 00:00:1c:30:7d:60, type NE2000 (16 bit) ahc0 rev 0 int a irq 11 on pci0:12:0 ahc0: aic7880 Wide Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs ahc0 waiting for scsi devices to settle (ahc0:3:0): "PLEXTOR CD-ROM PX-12TS 1.01" type 5 removable SCSI 2 cd0(ahc0:3:0): CD-ROM can't get the size ahc0:A:4: refuses WIDE negotiation. Using 8bit transfers ahc0:A:4: refuses synchronous negotiation. Using asynchronous transfers (ahc0:4:0): "PHILIPS CDD2600 1.07" type 5 removable SCSI 2 worm0(ahc0:4:0): Write-Once (ahc0:10:0): "IBM DCAS-34330W S65A" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:10:0): Direct-Access 4134MB (8467200 512 byte sectors) Probing for devices on PCI bus 1: Probing for devices on the ISA bus: sc0 at 0x60-0x6f irq 1 on motherboard sc0: VGA color <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x0> ed0 not found at 0x280 ed1 not found at 0x300 sio0 at 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 on isa sio0: type 16550A sio1 at 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on isa sio1: type 16550A lpt0 at 0x378-0x37f irq 7 on isa lpt0: Interrupt-driven port lp0: TCP/IP capable interface fdc0 at 0x3f0-0x3f7 irq 6 drq 2 on isa fdc0: FIFO enabled, 8 bytes threshold fd0: 1.44MB 3.5in npx0 flags 0x1 on motherboard npx0: INT 16 interface sb0 at 0x220 irq 7 drq 1 on isa sb0: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And here the config file : # # # $Id: GENERIC,v 1.77.2.12 1997/10/18 11:03:10 joerg Exp $ machine "i386" cpu "I686_CPU" ident CLARA maxusers 10 options CHILD_MAX=128 options OPEN_MAX=128 options "MAXMEM=(128*1024)" options MATH_EMULATE #Support for x87 emulation options INET #InterNETworking options FFS #Berkeley Fast Filesystem options NFS #Network Filesystem options MSDOSFS #MSDOS Filesystem options MFS #Memory File System options "CD9660" #ISO 9660 Filesystem options PROCFS #Process filesystem options "COMPAT_43" #Compatible with BSD 4.3 [KEEP THIS!] options SCSI_DELAY=5 #Be pessimistic about Joe SCSI device options BOUNCE_BUFFERS #include support for DMA bounce buffers options UCONSOLE #Allow users to grab the console options FAILSAFE #Be conservative options USERCONFIG #boot -c editor options VISUAL_USERCONFIG #visual boot -c editor config kernel root on sd0 # # This provides support for System V shared memory. # options SYSVSHM options SYSVSEM options SYSVMSG # options "MD5" # Routine MD5 dans le noyau options PERFMON # Cf perfmon(4) controller isa0 controller pci0 controller fdc0 at isa? port "IO_FD1" bio irq 6 drq 2 vector fdintr disk fd0 at fdc0 drive 0 # A single entry for any of these controllers (ncr, ahb, ahc, amd) is # sufficient for any number of installed devices. controller ahc0 controller scbus0 device sd0 device cd0 #Only need one of these, the code dynamically grows device worm0 at scbus? # SCSI worm # syscons is the default console driver, resembling an SCO console device sc0 at isa? port "IO_KBD" tty irq 1 vector scintr # Mandatory, don't remove device npx0 at isa? port "IO_NPX" flags 0x1 irq 13 vector npxintr device sio0 at isa? port "IO_COM1" tty irq 4 vector siointr device sio1 at isa? port "IO_COM2" tty irq 3 vector siointr device lpt0 at isa? port? tty irq 7 vector lptintr device psm0 at isa? disable port "IO_KBD" conflicts tty irq 12 vector psmintr device de0 device ed0 at isa? port 0x280 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector edintr device ed1 at isa? port 0x300 net irq 5 iomem 0xd8000 vector edintr # Controls all sound devices options EXCLUDE_MIDI # NO MIDI support whatsoever controller snd0 device sb0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 7 conflicts drq 1 vector sbintr pseudo-device loop pseudo-device ether pseudo-device log pseudo-device pty 128 pseudo-device speaker #Play IBM BASIC-style noises out your speaker pseudo-device gzip # Exec gzipped a.out's pseudo-device bpfilter 4 #Berkeley packet filter Any idea ? Thanks a lot F. Laissus To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 03:21:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11869 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc-server9 (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA11855 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Uacmebbs@massey.ac.nz) From: Uacmebbs@massey.ac.nz Message-Id: <199806081021.DAA11855@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from massey.ac.nz by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz id <01826-0@cc-server9.massey.ac.nz>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:19:58 +1200 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:19:57 +1200 To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From outpost.co.nz!crh Mon Jun 8 14:25:02 1998 remote from acme.gen.nz Received: from officedonkey by acme.gen.nz with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0yircL-0028ziC; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:25:01 +1200 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:08:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Problems with ddp_route console messages: a solution. Reply-to: crh@outpost.co.nz Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) There has been occasional traffic in recent months about people using appletalk getting lots(!) of console messages of the form "ddp_route: still no valid route to host" or "ddp_route: oops", with responses generally of the form "ignore it, it's not serious". I thought I'd add my experiences here for the interested and for anyone else who encounters this and searches through the mail archives for a solution. We've got a very small network (1 mac, 2 Win95 PCs, one FreeBSD server) and use the FreeBSD box as a general purpose everything (news, mail, dialup internet access etc) server, including fileserving for the Mac and PCs using CAP and Samba. Since recently upgrading from 2.2.2 to 2.2.6 (I usually only manage to install from every second CD set I get) we started having problems with file transfers to/from the Mac becoming very slow. Like, taking an hour(!) for a 3MB graphics file. Upon eventually discovering the ddp_route error messages on the console, I searched the mail archives with little success (and my knowledge of Appletalk networking grew from zero to a little bit) until finding a note in bugs that someone had very recently commented out these error messages in stable I did the same thing to my kernel and immediately saw a dramatic improvement in throughput (that 3MB file save operation went back down to a normal 30sec). Anyway, just thought I'd note that here in the hope that others having a similar problem will find this message useful, and to note the impact of seemingly innocent kernel printf statements on a less than state of the art machine (P75, only 16MB of RAM, doing way too many things at once). -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 03:34:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13327 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:34:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13292 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org) Received: from rigel (pm3-pt24.pcnet.net [206.105.29.98]) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (8.8.7/PCNet) with SMTP id GAA06239; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <357B1553.41C67EA6@iworks.InterWorks.org> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 18:33:55 -0400 From: "Daniel M. Eischen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jb@cimlogic.com.au CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ___error changes break CDE and mwm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Daniel M. Eischen wrote: > > > > bash-2.02$ /usr/dt/bin/dtwm > > /usr/libexec/ld.so: Undefined symbol "___error" called from dtwm:/usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 at 0x204d2610 > > bash-2.02$ /usr/X11R6/bin/mwm > > /usr/libexec/ld.so: Undefined symbol "___error" called from mwm:/usr/X11R6/lib/libX11.so.6.1 at 0x202c2610 > > > > I think you're suppose to be able to run XFree86 and CDE, but definitely > > not now. Reverting back to X11 from CDE should at least let me run the > > window manager, but I'll have to use a newer xterm (and perhaps a few > > other apps). Actually, just backing out to CDEs libX11.a/libX11.so.6.1 > > let's me run mwm, but dtwm/dtgreet/dtlogin are still busted apparently > > from other libraries. > > In your case, the XFree86 library versions need to be bumped to avoid > this problem. But of course that will prevent dtwm and mwm from using > the newer libraries (which defeats what you were trying to achieve). > So the answer is "don't do that". 8-) No, I think that is what I want :-) mwm and dtwm (and company) work with the X libraries built without the __error change. But xterm didn't work (it was libtermcap). As in the the other "Undefined symbol ___error" postings, xterm uses libtermcap which got updated and now references ___error (which doesn't exist in libc.so.2.2). Bumping the libtermcap version number would let it all work again. Bumping the affected X library version numbers would let one rebuild and install X without affecting CDE/mwm. Dan Eischen deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 03:45:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14418 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from penrose.isocor.ie (penrose.isocor.ie [194.106.155.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA14393; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 03:45:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter.edwards@isocor.ie) Received: from isocor.ie (194.106.155.26) by penrose.isocor.ie; 8 Jun 1998 11:44:20 +0100 Message-ID: <357BC029.58F4CA8A@isocor.ie> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 11:42:49 +0100 From: Peter Edwards Organization: ISOCOR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FORTH--any good books? References: <199806072159.OAA12870@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There is actually a pretty decent book available electronically. http://www.taygeta.com/forthlit.html -- Peter. Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > "Starting FORTH" was recommended, but it seems to be out of print. > > any other recommendations? > > jmb > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 05:34:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03032 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 05:34:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03010 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 05:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14158; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:34:18 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA06819; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:33:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980608143347.59513@follo.net> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:33:47 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Edward P. Katz" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. References: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> <199806080414.XAA01195@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199806080414.XAA01195@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:14:29PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:14:29PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > The biggest minus (performance wise) that you'll likely notice > about FreeBSD is that we have more synchronous metadata update > policy on our filesystems. This can have a performance impact > for massive filesystem manipulations. FreeBSD consiously chooses > the conservative policy though. ... and (as John well knows) it can be tuned to run an async policy similar to the one in Linux. Which policy you run is a tradeoff between the security of synchronous metadata updates (you get the guarantees that you don't get data crossing over from file to file during crashes, that directories don't get totally screwed up, etc) vs speed in massive manipulation of the filesystem (large amounts of renames, creation of lots of small files, etc). The default policy is the safest of these. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 07:29:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22318 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22271 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20643; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:29:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06268; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:29:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.cybercom.net: ksmm owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:29:40 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive X-Sender: ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net To: Francois LAISSUS cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Page fault while in kernel mode In-Reply-To: <19980608114650.35944@ramidus.lrmh.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Francois LAISSUS wrote: : Hello, : When I booted up my machine with 128 Mo instead of 64Mo I got a : kernel panic. Here the message manually copy from screen : : [ snip, snip ] : : The motherboard is an ASUS P2L97 with two DIMMs memory modules. I encounter : the trouble with any of both. I believe this is a similar problem to what I saw with my system on Windows, Linux, and OS/2 Warp. It seems that the ASUS P2L97 has some strange and nigh undocumented requirement that the middle DIMM slot be used last. Try putting the DIMMs in the outer two slots and see if that helps. K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 07:41:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23682 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com (cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com [199.94.215.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23655 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from moncrg@am026091.res.ray.com) Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) by cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24411; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10232; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:58:56 -0400 Received: from am026091.res.ray.com/138.125.142.48() by gatekeeper.ray.com id sma.897313948.008769; Mon Jun 8 09:52:28 1998 Received: (from moncrg@localhost) by am026091.res.ray.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21914; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:45:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moncrg) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:45:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Gregory D. Moncreaff" Message-Id: <199806081445.JAA21914@am026091.res.ray.com> To: dufault@hda.com, moncrg@ma.ultranet.com Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au, mph@pobox.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG according to `info cpp`->conditions->syntax->else example it should be ignored traditional-cpp should be all you need as gcc option to get the correct behavior To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 08:01:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: from colin.muc.de (root@colin.muc.de [193.174.4.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA26959; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lutz@muc.de) Received: from tavari.muc.de ([193.174.4.22]) by colin.muc.de with SMTP id <140554-3>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:47:05 +0200 Received: from muc.de (abraxas [192.168.42.5]) by tavari.muc.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13654; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:36:00 +0200 (CEST) Sender: lutz@muc.de Message-ID: <357B9466.7A80BF71@muc.de> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:36:06 +0200 From: Lutz Albers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: ulf@Alameda.net, freebsd-hackers-outgoing@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer References: <199806072033.NAA02005@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 02:53:56PM +0200, Lutz Albers wrote: > > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > > > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > > > > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > > > > > > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > > > > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > > > > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) > > > > > > ... which just contains daemon@freebsd.org. This is somewhat unwieldy if > > > you want to sort articles from different mailing lists to seperate > > > mailboxes ... > > > > I think, that Jonathan shouldn't send it to freebsd-hackers-outgoing, > > as that means not to use majordomo at all. > > shhhh.....your revealing secrets ;) not THAT much of a secret, there is a certain tell-tale sign missing that gives you away :-) -- Lutz Albers, lutz@muc.de Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 08:13:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: from gate.consol.de (gate1.consol.de [194.162.127.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29580; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from m2n@consol.de) Received: from msgsrv.bb.consol.de (m2n@msgsrv [10.250.0.100]) by gate.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11235; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:13:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from m2n@localhost) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA30174 for admins@consol.de; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:13:33 +0200 Received: from gate.consol.de (firewall1.bb.consol.de [10.250.0.2]) by msgsrv.bb.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA30168 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:13:32 +0200 X-Envelope-Sender-Is: majordom@freebsd.org (at relayer gate.consol.de) Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by gate.consol.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11230 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:13:33 +0200 (CEST) Delivered-To: vmailer-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (VMailer, from userid 1) id 99C7C1BE8; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colin.muc.de (root@colin.muc.de [193.174.4.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA26959; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lutz@muc.de) Received: from tavari.muc.de ([193.174.4.22]) by colin.muc.de with SMTP id <140554-3>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:47:05 +0200 Received: from muc.de (abraxas [192.168.42.5]) by tavari.muc.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13654; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:36:00 +0200 (CEST) Prev-Sender: lutz@muc.de Message-ID: <357B9466.7A80BF71@muc.de> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:36:06 +0200 From: Lutz Albers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: ulf@Alameda.net, freebsd-hackers-outgoing@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Conversion to VMailer References: <199806072033.NAA02005@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Filter: mailagent [version 3.0 PL61] for m2n@msgsrv.bb.consol.de Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > Ulf Zimmermann wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 02:53:56PM +0200, Lutz Albers wrote: > > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > > > > freebsd-hackers is being converted from Sendmail to Vmailer. > > > > Majordomo will remain our mailing list software. > > > > > > > > If you use procmail or slocal to sort your mail, > > > > please sort on the "Sender: " header. > > > > (save yourself, do this for all FreeBSD lists ;) > > > > > > ... which just contains daemon@freebsd.org. This is somewhat unwieldy if > > > you want to sort articles from different mailing lists to seperate > > > mailboxes ... > > > > I think, that Jonathan shouldn't send it to freebsd-hackers-outgoing, > > as that means not to use majordomo at all. > > shhhh.....your revealing secrets ;) not THAT much of a secret, there is a certain tell-tale sign missing that gives you away :-) -- Lutz Albers, lutz@muc.de Do not take life too seriously, you will never get out of it alive. From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 09:11:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09730 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from taz.bbcc.ctc.edu (taz.bbcc.ctc.edu [134.39.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09623 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@taz.bbcc.ctc.edu) Received: from localhost (chris@localhost) by taz.bbcc.ctc.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12824 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@taz.bbcc.ctc.edu) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:13:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Coleman To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ghost logins Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG 12:09PM up 2 days, 17:39, 3 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT chris p0 vnode.vmunix.com 11:55AM - w danj p1 :0.0 Fri08PM 33days - danj p2 :0.0 Fri08PM 33days - The user danj never logged into this machine. I just talked to him, also, it has him as idle for 33 days and I just put the machine on-line 2 days ago! I have -stable running, and I could be out of sync with my kernel a little, but it shouldn't be by much. Do I need to rebuild world, or has something weird really happened here? -Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 09:30:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14657 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:30:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kremvax.demos.su (kremvax.demos.su [194.87.0.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA14462 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:29:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sinbin.demos.su!bag@kremvax.demos.su) Received: by kremvax.demos.su (8.6.13/D) from 0@sinbin.demos.su [194.87.5.31] with ESMTP id UAA19650; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:29:02 +0400 Received: by sinbin.demos.su id UAA24532; (8.6.12/D) Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:28:13 +0400 From: bag@sinbin.demos.su (Alex G. Bulushev) Message-Id: <199806081628.UAA24532@sinbin.demos.su> Subject: Re: ghost logins In-Reply-To: from "Chris Coleman" at "Jun 8, 98 12:13:16 pm" X-ELM-OSV: (Our standard violations) no-mime=1; no-hdr-encoding=1 To: chris@taz.bbcc.ctc.edu (Chris Coleman) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:28:13 +0400 (MSD) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > 12:09PM up 2 days, 17:39, 3 users, load averages: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 > USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT > chris p0 vnode.vmunix.com 11:55AM - w > danj p1 :0.0 Fri08PM 33days - > danj p2 :0.0 Fri08PM 33days - ^^^^^^ may be u mount / noatime 33days ago ? Alex. > > The user danj never logged into this machine. I just talked to him, > also, it has him as idle for 33 days and I just put the machine on-line 2 > days ago! > > I have -stable running, and I could be out of sync with my kernel a > little, but it shouldn't be by much. Do I need to rebuild world, or has > something weird really happened here? > > -Chris > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 10:36:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29160 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA29101 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28910; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:35:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:35:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Darren Reed cc: Nate Williams , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-Reply-To: <199806061124.HAA00443@nova.sarnoff.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG darren, you just confused me. Here's the sequence again. 5606 telnet CALL socket(0x2,0x2,0) 5606 telnet RET socket 3 5606 telnet CALL connect(0x3,0x200ac010,0x10) 5606 telnet RET connect 0 5606 telnet CALL sendto(0x3,0xefbfcfd8,0x16,0,0,0) 5606 telnet GIO fd 3 wrote 22 bytes "\^B\M-Z\^A\0\0\^A\0\0\0\0\0\0\^Dc126\0\0\^A\0\^A" 5606 telnet RET sendto 22/0x16 5606 telnet CALL poll(0xefbfcd88,0x1,0x2710) 5606 telnet RET poll 1 5606 telnet CALL recvfrom(0x3,0xefbfd884,0x400,0,0xefbfce10,0xefbfcd7c) 5606 telnet RET recvfrom -1 errno 61 Connection refused 5606 telnet CALL close(0x3) So the socket works, the connect works, the sendto works, the poll shows data to read, i do a recvfrom and get ECONNREFUSED? what's normal about that, especially on a program that behaves differently on every other freebsd and linux and solaris that we have in-house? Am I doing something wrong that has just "happened to work" for the last few years? thanks ron Ron Minnich |Java: an operating-system-independent, rminnich@sarnoff.com |architecture-independent programming language (609)-734-3120 |for Windows/95 and Windows/NT on the Pentium ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 10:41:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00162 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:41:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29969 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07765; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:40:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA25392; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:40:31 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:40:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199806081740.LAA25392@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Ron G. Minnich" Cc: Darren Reed , Nate Williams , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-Reply-To: References: <199806061124.HAA00443@nova.sarnoff.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > darren, you just confused me. Here's the sequence again. I think Darren is confused. A valid socket shouldn't return ECONNREFUSED IMHO. (Still waiting for the source though Ron. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 11:08:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07363 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (omega.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07276 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fenner@parc.xerox.com) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <32677(1)>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:07:33 PDT Received: by crevenia.parc.xerox.com id <177515>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:07:28 -0700 From: Bill Fenner To: nate@mt.sri.com, rminnich@sarnoff.com Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <98Jun8.110728pdt.177515@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:07:23 PDT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Although the ktrace definitely didn't show it, I believe it's possible for this sequence of events to occur if the socket is in asynchronous mode. Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 11:13:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08557 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.numachi.com (numachi.numachi.com [198.175.254.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA08485 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reichert@numachi.numachi.COM) Received: (qmail 5656 invoked by uid 1001); 8 Jun 1998 18:12:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19980608141258.A5542@numachi.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:12:58 -0400 From: Brian Reichert To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: _secure_path and cron Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hiya- ( This is with 2.2.6-RELEASE, BTW. ) I was playing with setting up some really strict permissions on user accounts: > groups breicher breicher wheel users > ls -ld ~breicher drwxrws--T 11 root breicher 1024 Jun 8 13:52 /home/breicher/ Note that I'm in my own group, but root owns the directory, granting group access. Files in the directory are owned by the user. I'll spare the details of why I was persuing this. I began to note cron barfing: Jun 8 13:20:00 breichert CRON[12376]: _secure_path: cannot stat /home/breicher/ .login_conf: Permission denied The file in question does not exist, therefore _secure_path should have returned -2, which does not warrent logging via syslog. I presume that _secure_path instead returned -1, which confuses me. If cron, at that point, was running as either root, or me, there should be no permission errors. Is this a bug, or am I being too clever for my own good? What gives? -- Brian Reichert reichert@numachi.com 37 Crystal Ave. #303 Current daytime number: (617)-873-4337 Derry NH 03038-1713 USA Intel architecture: the left-hand path To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 11:45:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15798 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA15658 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29458; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:43:44 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:43:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Nate Williams cc: Darren Reed , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-Reply-To: <199806081740.LAA25392@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm having trouble getting it to fail. Also, today, the failure i got from telnet is not there. geez, this is weird. As soon as I get it to break again i'll let you know :-) And no, the machine was not rebooted and no, nothing else in the environment changed. anyone else seen this one? ron Ron Minnich |Java: an operating-system-independent, rminnich@sarnoff.com |architecture-independent programming language (609)-734-3120 |for Windows/95 and Windows/NT on the Pentium ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 11:45:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16048 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:45:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA15867 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA29469; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:44:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:44:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Bill Fenner cc: nate@mt.sri.com, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-Reply-To: <98Jun8.110728pdt.177515@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Bill Fenner wrote: > Although the ktrace definitely didn't show it, I believe it's possible for > this sequence of events to occur if the socket is in asynchronous mode. Thanks. The socket in my code is not in async. mode. The socket in telnet, well, I don't know, though I saw no sort of options set that would put it into async. mode. ron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 12:12:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21700 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lor.watermarkgroup.com (lor.watermarkgroup.com [207.202.73.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21627 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luoqi@lor.watermarkgroup.com) Received: (from luoqi@localhost) by lor.watermarkgroup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19671; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:07:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from luoqi) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:07:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Luoqi Chen Message-Id: <199806081907.PAA19671@lor.watermarkgroup.com> To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, rminnich@Sarnoff.COM Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > darren, you just confused me. Here's the sequence again. > 5606 telnet CALL socket(0x2,0x2,0) socket(PF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, 0), this is a UDP socket, the connect() call only assigns the default destination address (for send()). > 5606 telnet RET socket 3 > 5606 telnet CALL connect(0x3,0x200ac010,0x10) > 5606 telnet RET connect 0 > 5606 telnet CALL sendto(0x3,0xefbfcfd8,0x16,0,0,0) > 5606 telnet GIO fd 3 wrote 22 bytes > "\^B\M-Z\^A\0\0\^A\0\0\0\0\0\0\^Dc126\0\0\^A\0\^A" > 5606 telnet RET sendto 22/0x16 > 5606 telnet CALL poll(0xefbfcd88,0x1,0x2710) > 5606 telnet RET poll 1 > 5606 telnet CALL recvfrom(0x3,0xefbfd884,0x400,0,0xefbfce10,0xefbfcd7c) > 5606 telnet RET recvfrom -1 errno 61 Connection refused > 5606 telnet CALL close(0x3) > > So the socket works, the connect works, the sendto works, the poll shows > data to read, i do a recvfrom and get ECONNREFUSED? ECONNREFUSED here simply means there's no socket bound at the destination address/port. Probably you make a mistake in your code, you meant to use SOCK_STREAM to create a TCP socket. > what's normal about that, especially on a program that behaves > differently on every other freebsd and linux and solaris that we have > in-house? Am I doing something wrong that has just "happened to work" for > the last few years? > > thanks > ron > > Ron Minnich |Java: an operating-system-independent, > rminnich@sarnoff.com |architecture-independent programming language > (609)-734-3120 |for Windows/95 and Windows/NT on the Pentium > ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html -lq To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 13:00:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06591 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:00:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terra.Sarnoff.COM (terra.sarnoff.com [130.33.11.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA06338 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rminnich@Sarnoff.COM) Received: (from rminnich@localhost) by terra.Sarnoff.COM (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA29968; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:58:40 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:58:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Ron G. Minnich" X-Sender: rminnich@terra To: Luoqi Chen cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-Reply-To: <199806081907.PAA19671@lor.watermarkgroup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Luoqi Chen wrote: > > 5606 telnet CALL socket(0x2,0x2,0) > UDP socket OK, telnet is more of a mess than I thought. I just realized the same thing. So what piece of code (telnet, libtelnet, libc, ...) is creating a dgram socket and then trying to do a connect()? does that make any sense? I don't have the whole source tree handy. anybody want to look? This looks like part of dns client code from the trace. > > 5606 telnet CALL recvfrom(0x3,0xefbfd884,0x400,0,0xefbfce10,0xefbfcd7c) > > 5606 telnet RET recvfrom -1 errno 61 Connection refused > ECONNREFUSED here simply means there's no socket bound at the destination > address/port. Probably you make a mistake in your code, you meant to use > SOCK_STREAM to create a TCP socket. > Again, this is not my code. But recvfrom is perfectly OK on a dgram socket. Why ECONNREFUSED? Is this holdover state from the previous sendto? Is the connect call on a dgram socket putting the socket into a strange state? ron To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 13:58:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06831 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06808 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:58:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA09321; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:54:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA26627; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:54:27 -0600 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:54:27 -0600 Message-Id: <199806082054.OAA26627@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Bill Fenner Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, rminnich@sarnoff.com, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-Reply-To: <98Jun8.110728pdt.177515@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> References: <98Jun8.110728pdt.177515@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Although the ktrace definitely didn't show it, I believe it's possible for > this sequence of events to occur if the socket is in asynchronous mode. Why is that? Does asynchronous mode assume that there must be data to receive before-hand? I would think returning 0 would be acceptable. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 14:19:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11304 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:19:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (omega.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA11271 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:19:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fenner@parc.xerox.com) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <32675(2)>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:18:50 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177515>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:18:46 -0700 To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jun 98 13:54:27 PDT." <199806082054.OAA26627@mt.sri.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:18:31 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <98Jun8.141846pdt.177515@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG An asynchronous connect() returns immediately, before the connection is established (or refused). When the final connection status is known it is reported, possibly in response to a read(). Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 14:28:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12536 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (omega.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.95]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA12512 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fenner@parc.xerox.com) Received: from crevenia.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.11]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <32677(2)>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:28:11 PDT Received: from localhost by crevenia.parc.xerox.com with SMTP id <177515>; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:28:03 -0700 To: Luoqi Chen cc: rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jun 98 12:07:07 PDT." <199806081907.PAA19671@lor.watermarkgroup.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:28:02 PDT From: Bill Fenner Message-Id: <98Jun8.142803pdt.177515@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks, LQ, for pointing out the SOCK_DGRAM. This is clearly the resolver library doing a DNS query to a server that's not running a name server. The connect() on a datagram socket allows errors (like ICMP port unreachable) to be delivered to the socket. You do the sendto(), you get back an ICMP port unreachable error, and that ICMP error is delivered back to you by way of the recvfrom() call. Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 15:21:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22320 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([207.8.83.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22233 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA00295; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:47:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980607154713.49676@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:47:13 +1000 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wolfram Schneider Cc: dg@root.com, Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: annual USENIX conference, any plans? References: <10433.897179811@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <10433.897179811@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Jun 06, 1998 at 05:36:51PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 6 June 1998 at 17:36:51 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> David Greenman writes: >>>> Maybe I lost some incoming emails, but is there any plans/whatever >>>> for FreeBSD BOF or whatever, at annual USENIX conference this month? >>>> Who will be visiting there? >>> >>> About half of the core team, I believe. Me, Jordan, Justin, Poul-Henning, >>> just to name a few. Yes, there will be a FreeBSD BoF. >> This information should be at the /newsflash.html page. >> Can someon write a short paragraph (3-5 lines) about the >> upcoming FreeBSD BoF? >> >> Wolfram >> > Rather than put something in for the BOF itself, why not just > advertise the whole FREENIX track at Usenix this year? The > actual FreeBSD BOF is probably going to end up being the _least_ > interesting FreeBSD event at the show. :-) Interesting. This begs the question what you think the other interesting events will be. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 18:00:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16928 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from actcom.co.il (baum@actcom.co.il [192.114.47.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16857 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from baum@actcom.co.il) Received: from localhost by actcom.co.il with SMTP (8.8.6/actcom-0.2) id DAA00866; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 03:59:36 +0300 (EET DST) (rfc931-sender: baum@localhost) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 03:59:36 +0300 (EET DST) From: Alexander Indenbaum To: Stephen Hocking-Senior Programmer PGS Tensor Perth cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dialing into RAS/NT from FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: <199805270406.MAA06711@ariadne.tensor.pgs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 27 May 1998, Stephen Hocking-Senior Programmer PGS Tensor Perth wrote: > > Anybody done this using ppp or pppd? I dislike these blasted proprietry > protocols..... > I compiled pppd 2.3.0 half a year ago to get MS CHAP ( MS authentication ) and CBCP ( MS call back protocol ) and it works just fine. > > Stephen > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > Alexander Indenbaum baum@actcom.co.il To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 18:36:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23591 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (root@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23535 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23805; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:10:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd023625; Mon Jun 8 18:10:21 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22672; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:10:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806090110.SAA22672@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: ECONNREFUSED on a READ? To: rminnich@Sarnoff.COM (Ron G. Minnich) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:10:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: luoqi@watermarkgroup.com, avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, nate@mt.sri.com In-Reply-To: from "Ron G. Minnich" at Jun 8, 98 03:58:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > 5606 telnet CALL socket(0x2,0x2,0) > > UDP socket > > OK, telnet is more of a mess than I thought. I just realized the same > thing. > > So what piece of code (telnet, libtelnet, libc, ...) is creating a dgram > socket and then trying to do a connect()? does that make any sense? I > don't have the whole source tree handy. anybody want to look? This looks > like part of dns client code from the trace. gethostbyname(). > > > 5606 telnet CALL recvfrom(0x3,0xefbfd884,0x400,0,0xefbfce10,0xefbfcd7c) > > > 5606 telnet RET recvfrom -1 errno 61 Connection refused > > ECONNREFUSED here simply means there's no socket bound at the destination > > address/port. Probably you make a mistake in your code, you meant to use > > SOCK_STREAM to create a TCP socket. > > Again, this is not my code. But recvfrom is perfectly OK on a dgram > socket. Why ECONNREFUSED? Is this holdover state from the previous sendto? > Is the connect call on a dgram socket putting the socket into a strange > state? 2 possibilities: 1) Nameserver configuration error/default route error 2) You are porting Linux code, like the SLP sample implementation, and you are not doing: sockaddr_in sin; /* * Linux people forget this because their stack pages are zeroed * for "security" reasons. If this is the first time on the * stack, then stack variables will appear zero'ed as well. It * is _wrong_ to depend on this behaviour! */ memset( &sin, 0, sizeof(sin)); Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 20:37:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15564 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beatrice.rutgers.edu (beatrice.rutgers.edu [165.230.209.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA15491 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from easmith@beatrice.rutgers.edu) Received: (from easmith@localhost) by beatrice.rutgers.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id XAA20916; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:35:51 -0400 From: "Allen Smith" Message-Id: <9806082335.ZM20914@beatrice.rutgers.edu> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:35:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund "Re: Newbie 3 questions." (Jun 8, 2:33pm) References: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> <199806080414.XAA01195@dyson.iquest.net> <19980608143347.59513@follo.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 8, 2:33pm, Eivind Eklund (possibly) wrote: > ... and (as John well knows) it can be tuned to run an async policy > similar to the one in Linux. Which policy you run is a tradeoff > between the security of synchronous metadata updates (you get the > guarantees that you don't get data crossing over from file to file > during crashes, that directories don't get totally screwed up, etc) vs > speed in massive manipulation of the filesystem (large amounts of > renames, creation of lots of small files, etc). The default policy is > the safest of these. Is async necessary/desirable for an MFS, or is it automatic? From the 4.4BSD book, I know that the 4.4BSD MFS is built just like a FFS, only using pageable memory space instead of filesystem space. Thanks, -Allen P.S. If it isn't automatically async, I might see if I can patch things so that it is. Somebody else doing this would be preferable, however. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 21:32:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26337 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cardamom.itojun.org (root@kame204.kame.net [203.178.141.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26101; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:30:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cardamom.itojun.org (8.8.5/3.3W3) with ESMTP id NAA09932; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:21:53 +0900 (JST) To: core@FreeBSD.ORG cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG cc: tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org cc: itojun@itojun.org Subject: new config X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 X-Mailer: comp (MHng project) version 1997/09/27 08:21:12, by Jun-ichiro Itoh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-ID: Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 13:21:42 +0900 Message-ID: <9929.897366102@cardamom.itojun.org> From: Jun-ichiro Itoh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, this is Jun-ichiro Itoh. What is the plan for "config" program? Specifically, when will FreeBSD move to "new config" which is used by NetBSD or BSDI? On June 3rd, there was FreeBSD BOF at Interop98 Tokyo, and it became very clear that many project has been stucked due to the fact FreeBSD is using old config. For example (this is basically summary of discussion): - With old config, the order of probe/attach is defined sorely by the type of bus, say, pci_configure() then isa_configure(). There are devices that are not happy with this method, such as cardbus controller. - PAO/laptop support people would like to have separate bus type for pccard and cardbus. Cardbus people feels that they cannot make progress any more without bus separation. Current probe/attach mechanism used for laptop support is not clean enough, and very hard to understand. Also, this is affected by order-of-probe problem (the previous item). (pccard attach routine fills intr/port information and calls isa attach routines, basically) - Cannot pass "flags" field to pci devices. - isapnp/pci should have a separate bustype from isa, of course. - It is becoming really hard to port something from/to FreeBSD to/from NetBSD or BSDI. - There are many bus kind of hardware coming, for example, usb or IEEE1394. If we don't have separate bus type for them, config file will become too ugly. NetBSD usb team uses bus named "usb" for this, and it looks really clean. - New config gives a cleaner way to define relationship between "parent" device and "child" device. This must be incorporated for cleaner wdc/wd disk/atapi/whatever structure, and for parallel-port bus. - Having foo_softc[NFOO] is A BAD THING, thinking about pci/isapnp devices. We must avoid this. - The way to register interrupt is different between pci device and isa device. It is cumbersome. I understand that FreeBSD-current kernel is targetted toward LKM-centric approach, but I believe new config is inevitable for future development of FreeBSD kernel. I think this is the last chance to incorporate new config, it must be done before moving everything to 3.0. I also understand that it needs a whole bunch of rewrites to every drivers. I propose to have separate repository for a while for "new config" migration (machine and disk is almost ready, hosted by jp.freebsd camp), and merge it into freefall if completed. There's some work has already been done, initial patch is already available so we can start working right away. There are some volunteers from jp.freebsd camp already, and of course I'm waiting for more volunteers to come. If something is already decided about this topic, please give me some pointer for the discussion archive. I do not want to spend my time to this, if it will never be merged into. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 21:50:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29434 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29411 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:50:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id OAA06369; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:49:59 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma006342; Tue, 9 Jun 98 14:49:47 +1000 Received: from atlas.dtir.qld.gov.au (atlas.dtir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17201; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:49:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au (nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA23396; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:49:42 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21118; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:49:48 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199806090449.OAA21118@nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au> To: Eivind Eklund cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Irritating cpp feature References: <19980607190517.23293@follo.net> In-Reply-To: <19980607190517.23293@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 19:05:17 +0200" Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 14:49:48 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sunday, 7th June 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: >On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:07:07AM -0400, Gregory D Moncreaff wrote: >> you can put anything you want in an #if 0/#endif block. >> by definition, the preprocessor deletes such before the compiler >> (which is the only thing that checks code syntax) >> even sees it > >This is a common misconception. Your statement is completely false. Change "completely" to "currently" for maximum accuracy. ;-) The K&R cpp was a simpler beast and those of us from the pre-ANSI days were pretty pissed off with the damage done to the preprocessor by the ANSI committee. Well, at least I was. Another guy was so moved by the matter he gave a "You scumbags!" talk at an Australian UNIX Users' Group conference. Of course, nobody paid any attention, and the world has not yet fallen into chaos and barbarism... >Now, can we all cut this discussion at this point? Thanks. Ahh, but it's so much fun to poke the C Standards Committee in the eye. :-) Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 22:19:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02959 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles187.castles.com [208.214.165.187]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02922; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00467; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806090414.VAA00467@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jun-ichiro Itoh cc: core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 13:21:42 +0900." <9929.897366102@cardamom.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:14:10 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hello, this is Jun-ichiro Itoh. > What is the plan for "config" program? Specifically, when will > FreeBSD move to "new config" which is used by NetBSD or BSDI? Whilst I can't speak for core, I'm reasonably familiar with the work in this area. I don't believe that there are any plans at all to adopt the "new config", and certainly nobody with any code aimed in this direction. Newconfig imposes very strict hierarchical structure on the system, and whilst well-geared towards a static configuration, is much less well suited to dynamic operation (my evaluation only). Bearing in mind that it has been at least a year since I had anything to do with newconfig, I'd be interested in more clarification. Can you clarify when you talk about "new config", do you specifically mean the "new config" tool, or an improved bus/resource/driver model? > On June 3rd, there was FreeBSD BOF at Interop98 Tokyo, and > it became very clear that many project has been stucked due to the > fact FreeBSD is using old config. > For example (this is basically summary of discussion): > - With old config, the order of probe/attach is defined sorely by > the type of bus, say, pci_configure() then isa_configure(). > There are devices that are not happy with this method, such as > cardbus controller. This is very similar to newconfig, where discovery is performed in a tree-recursive fashion, no? > - PAO/laptop support people would like to have separate bus type > for pccard and cardbus. Cardbus people feels that they cannot make > progress any more without bus separation. Current probe/attach > mechanism used for laptop support is not clean enough, and very hard > to understand. Also, this is affected by order-of-probe problem > (the previous item). > (pccard attach routine fills intr/port information and calls isa > attach routines, basically) There is nothing stopping the CardBus people having a new bus type for CardBus; here I can see how the new config style of resource control by parent indirection would help. > - Cannot pass "flags" field to pci devices. Here we run up against one of the fundamental problems that the entire BSD config structure, new and old, possess - you can't pass parameters to something that you haven't already defined. If I have three instances of some hardware that uses the 'foo' driver, and I want to pass a parameter to one of the three, the parameter has to be associated with a structure that will in turn be associated with this hardware, and the structure has to be defined in advance. This makes truly dynamic handling of hardware very difficult. It is one of the reasons that nobody has become terribly enthused about "new config" - it's not that much better than "old config". > - isapnp/pci should have a separate bustype from isa, of course. Not at all. The issue here is one of functional separation between the "probe" and "attach" components. Probes are inherently bus specific, but attaches are not, provided that the correct bus abstraction is provided to the attach. A major problem faced with migrating our current (ISA) driver base towards this model is that many drivers perform parts of their hardware setup in the probe, and do not duplicate them in the attach. This means that all probes, even those that use completely out-of-band detection methods (eg. PnP) have to pretend to probe the "old" way. > - It is becoming really hard to port something from/to FreeBSD to/from > NetBSD or BSDI. You can point fingers in any direction here. It's hard to come down on either side of the issue. > - There are many bus kind of hardware coming, for example, usb or > IEEE1394. If we don't have separate bus type for them, config file > will become too ugly. > NetBSD usb team uses bus named "usb" for this, and it looks really > clean. If we do it right, there won't *be* a config file entry for USB. I can't imagine it getting much cleaner than that. 8) > - New config gives a cleaner way to define relationship between > "parent" device and "child" device. This must be incorporated for > cleaner wdc/wd disk/atapi/whatever structure, and for parallel-port > bus. This is one of the strengths of the structures that new config builds, yes. > - Having foo_softc[NFOO] is A BAD THING, thinking about pci/isapnp > devices. We must avoid this. ... and this is a major reason to avoid static configuration entirely. > - The way to register interrupt is different between pci device and > isa device. It is cumbersome. Agreed. > I understand that FreeBSD-current kernel is targetted toward > LKM-centric approach, but I believe new config is inevitable for > future development of FreeBSD kernel. It is inevitable purely and simply if someone(s) stand up and do the work. If you can sell the basic idea, and make it clear that it will work for people (like me) that feel strongly about this architecture, then it will truly be inevitable. > I propose to have separate repository for a while for "new config" > migration (machine and disk is almost ready, hosted by jp.freebsd > camp), and merge it into freefall if completed. Perhaps it would be better to use a branch on the main repository? > If something is already decided about this topic, please give me > some pointer for the discussion archive. I do not want to spend > my time to this, if it will never be merged into. >From an entirely pragmatic perspective, "new" config is better than "old" config. It's not the solution we are looking for, but it's a step in the right direction. If the integration will be carried through to completion, then I would be inclined to offer my support (whatever that's worth 8). -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 22:23:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03364 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03355 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:23:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02025; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: Wolfram Schneider , dg@root.com, Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: annual USENIX conference, any plans? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Jun 1998 15:47:13 +1000." <19980607154713.49676@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:21:41 -0700 Message-ID: <2022.897369701@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Interesting. This begs the question what you think the other > interesting events will be. Take a look at the Usenix schedule. The BOF should be fun, don't get me wrong, but a lot of FreeBSD folks are also giving more in-depth talks on their work which should, IMHO, prove the most instructive. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 22:41:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06062 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06012 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:40:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA24191; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:40:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: ben@rosengart.com To: Allen Smith cc: Eivind Eklund , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-Reply-To: <9806082335.ZM20914@beatrice.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Allen Smith wrote: > Is async necessary/desirable for an MFS, or is it automatic? From the > 4.4BSD book, I know that the 4.4BSD MFS is built just like a FFS, only > using pageable memory space instead of filesystem space. Sync and async refer to policies for when to commit certain writes to disk. MFS lives in RAM, except when it's paged out, and then it's the pager algorithm that determines which pages get written to disk, not the metadata update scheme. So the question doesn't really make sense. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 22:52:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07567 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07388; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA29579; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806090538.WAA29579@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Mike Smith Cc: Jun-ichiro Itoh , core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:38:19 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:14:10 -0700 Mike Smith wrote: So, to be quite honest, when I read the original post, I thought: "Wow... someone is finally going to do the right thing with autoconfiguration in FreeBSD." ..and when I read the reply, I literally laughed out loud. But one thing caught my eye, that I just have to comment on: > If we do it right, there won't *be* a config file entry for USB. I > can't imagine it getting much cleaner than that. 8) "How about those spiffy new USB keyboards! Sure would be nice to be able to use it before any user processes have started!" Before you ramble on about BIOS compatibility modes, I have two more words for you: alpha port Sure, new config might have some problems wrt. dynamic device configuration, but the problems are fairly well understood, and with a little time and effort, they could be fixed. Anyhow, I was amused, so I had to comment... Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 23:16:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10322 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10304 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:16:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02244; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jun-ichiro Itoh cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 13:21:42 +0900." <9929.897366102@cardamom.itojun.org> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 23:15:43 -0700 Message-ID: <2238.897372943@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If something is already decided about this topic, please give me > some pointer for the discussion archive. I do not want to spend > my time to this, if it will never be merged into. Well, every time this comes up, a number of folks chime in with "but config(8) is fundamentally WRONG! We must get rid of it entirely, not upgrade it!" and it is my suggestion that you simply ignore all of those people and go right on ahead with this idea. The reason I suggest ignoring them has to do with the fact that it's exceedingly easy to point out the flaws in config(8) but obviously not so easy to architect a complete replacement or someone would have done so by now. Note that I'm not even talking about an implementation, I'm talking about a reasonable attempt to even _architect_ such a thing. I've seen many a pie-in-the-sky treatise go by about how things ought to work, but not much which really went into significant detail on how a migration away from config(8) should be done and a sample timeline showing which tasks will need to be done and in what order. If the NetBSD/BSDI folks have improved config(8) to the point where it's signficantly more usable, I don't see the harm in going in that direction. If the new-paradigm weenies also want to use that as a sufficient goad to get them to really implement a complete replacement, then that's pretty much a win too since nothing else seems to be motivating them these days. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 23:20:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10693 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles187.castles.com [208.214.165.187]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10589; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:19:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00750; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806090514.WAA00750@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jason Thorpe cc: Mike Smith , Jun-ichiro Itoh , core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:38:19 PDT." <199806090538.WAA29579@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:14:37 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ... and for public consumption: > > So, to be quite honest, when I read the original post, I thought: > > "Wow... someone is finally going to do the right thing > with autoconfiguration in FreeBSD." > > ...and when I read the reply, I literally laughed out loud. I'll say it again, since you seem to have missed it: I speak for nobody other than myself. I have no "official" affiliations in this capacity, other than as someone that's attempting to contribute to a solution. > But one thing caught my eye, that I just have to comment on: > > > If we do it right, there won't *be* a config file entry for USB. I > > can't imagine it getting much cleaner than that. 8) > > "How about those spiffy new USB keyboards! Sure would be nice to be > able to use it before any user processes have started!" > > Before you ramble on about BIOS compatibility modes, I have two more > words for you: > > alpha port >From the technical perspective, I (at least) want a working solution. This does not involve static configuration. Oddly enough, most of the major vendors and their development teams have a very similar set of ideas. You don't need static configuration to support USB keyboards, even without working firmware support. Nor to support most other hardware (non-metadata-providing devices excepted). You need to be able to deal with the metadata involved, and be able to demand-load your support. That's really kinda obvious, no? > Sure, new config might have some problems wrt. dynamic device configuration, > but the problems are fairly well understood, and with a little time and > effort, they could be fixed. So how about the legendary spirit of cooperation and mutual assistance? You could share with Jun and his team your understanding of the problems, and ultimately share in the benefits that might accrue from their solving them. This would be far more admirable than anything you've done lately. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Mon Jun 8 23:32:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12040 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from proxy.unpar.ac.id (proxy.unpar.ac.id [167.205.206.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11894 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:31:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from 4196086@student.unpar.ac.id) Received: from student.unpar.ac.id (210student.unpar.ac.id [10.210.1.3]) by proxy.unpar.ac.id (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17561 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:12:49 +0700 (JAVT) Received: from localhost (4196086@localhost) by student.unpar.ac.id (8.8.5/8.8.5.D) with SMTP id NAA06042 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:34:46 +0700 (JAVT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:34:46 +0700 (JAVT) From: Kok Beng <4196086@student.unpar.ac.id> To: freeBSD-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 00:00:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15388 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:00:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sraigw.sra.co.jp (sraigw.sra.co.jp [202.32.10.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15320; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:58:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from furuta@sra.co.jp) Received: from sranhc.sra.co.jp (sranhc [133.137.20.3]) by sraigw.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-sraigw) with ESMTP id PAA07157; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:57:39 +0900 (JST) Received: from sras63.sra.co.jp (root@sras63 [133.137.20.191]) by sranhc.sra.co.jp (8.8.7/3.6Wbeta7-srambox) with SMTP id PAA17641; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:57:53 +0859 (JST) Received: from sras63.sra.co.jp (furuta@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sras63.sra.co.jp (8.6.12+2.4W3/3.4W-sras63) with ESMTP id PAA27116; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:57:52 +0900 Message-Id: <199806090657.PAA27116@sras63.sra.co.jp> To: mike@smith.net.au Cc: itojun@itojun.org, core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:14:10 -0700" References: <199806090414.VAA00467@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.28.7 / Mule 2.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:57:46 +0900 From: Atsushi Furuta Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> In article <199806090414.VAA00467@antipodes.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith writes: > Newconfig imposes very strict hierarchical structure on the system, and > whilst well-geared towards a static configuration, is much less well > suited to dynamic operation (my evaluation only). Bearing in mind that > it has been at least a year since I had anything to do with newconfig, > I'd be interested in more clarification. Please tell me your definition of "static/dynamic configuration" in this context. My understanding: static configuration -> to give parameters in compile time dynamic configuration -> to give parameters in boot time Is this correct? -- furuta@sra.co.jp (Atsushi Furuta) Advanced Technology Group. Software Research Associates, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 00:18:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17236 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:18:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17118; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA06813; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806090715.AAA06813@implode.root.com> To: Jun-ichiro Itoh cc: core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 13:21:42 +0900." <9929.897366102@cardamom.itojun.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:15:06 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What is the plan for "config" program? Specifically, when will > FreeBSD move to "new config" which is used by NetBSD or BSDI? ...(list of perceived benefits deleted) I'm fairly neutral regarding this issue. We haven't upgraded to the 'new' config because in the past, the benefits for x86 don't outway the pain of switching to it. This might change now that an Alpha port is on the horizon. The other argument against wasting the effort on this has always been that we wanted very much to migrate in the dynamic configuration direction and 'new' config is really only a step sideways toward that goal. Actually, the real reason we're still using the 'old' config is that I had too many other things to worry about when we did the port of 4.4BSD-lite that became FreeBSD 2.0. It was far easier to continue using the old mechanism than it was to update all of the device drivers as well as a fair amount of the rest of the low level code just to support it. Anyway, as long as I don't have to do it, I certainly won't stand in the way of progress. I don't speak for other core members, however, so a decision should be postponed until others have chimed in with their opinions. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 00:32:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18499 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18382; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA06730; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:30:03 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:30:03 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: Atsushi Furuta cc: mike@smith.net.au, itojun@itojun.org, core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-Reply-To: <199806090657.PAA27116@sras63.sra.co.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Atsushi Furuta wrote: > >> In article <199806090414.VAA00467@antipodes.cdrom.com>, > Mike Smith writes: > > > Newconfig imposes very strict hierarchical structure on the system, and > > whilst well-geared towards a static configuration, is much less well > > suited to dynamic operation (my evaluation only). Bearing in mind that > > it has been at least a year since I had anything to do with newconfig, > > I'd be interested in more clarification. > > Please tell me your definition of "static/dynamic configuration" in > this context. > > My understanding: > > static configuration -> to give parameters in compile time > dynamic configuration -> to give parameters in boot time > > Is this correct? My understanding is that static configuration means that drivers are built into the kernel and device instances (e.g. sio0, sio1) are fixed at compile time. Dynamic configuration for me means that both drivers and device instances can be added to the system at any time. My biggest problem with the new config system is that the device hierarchy must be declared in full in the config file and must be matched in the source code. The hierarchy is encoded in two seperate places. My dynamic configuration system which will prototype in FreeBSD/alpha does this slightly differently. The bus/device hierarchy grows downward from the root as each bus probes its devices and attaches them (some of which will be subordinate busses). The config file currently just declares which drivers should be compiled into the system statically. Each driver knows for itself which bus type it is relavent to. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 00:36:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18749 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18729 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07029; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806090734.AAA07029@implode.root.com> To: Atsushi Furuta cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:57:46 +0900." <199806090657.PAA27116@sras63.sra.co.jp> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 00:34:30 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>> In article <199806090414.VAA00467@antipodes.cdrom.com>, > Mike Smith writes: > >> Newconfig imposes very strict hierarchical structure on the system, and >> whilst well-geared towards a static configuration, is much less well >> suited to dynamic operation (my evaluation only). Bearing in mind that >> it has been at least a year since I had anything to do with newconfig, >> I'd be interested in more clarification. > > Please tell me your definition of "static/dynamic configuration" in >this context. > >My understanding: > > static configuration -> to give parameters in compile time > dynamic configuration -> to give parameters in boot time > >Is this correct? No. Static configuration: device drivers are compiled into the system. Dynamic configuration: device drivers are loaded/unloaded as part of the boot process. Device parameters are something altogether seperate and I would expect in the future that those will be implemented via some kind of extended sysctl type thing. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 01:12:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA23015 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from TomQNX.tomqnx.com (cpu2745.adsl.bellglobal.com [207.236.55.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA23003 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@tomqnx.com) Received: by TomQNX.tomqnx.com (Smail3.2 #1) id m0yjJW2-00087JC; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: From: freebsd@tomqnx.com (Tom Torrance) Subject: IPFW problem? To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 04:12:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The sample file to the contrary, it appears that ipfw will not allow the "established" keyword for the "allow icmp" case. Is this a misunderstanding on my part or a genuine fault"? Is there another way to allow ICMP only as part of the TCP protocol? TIA Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 05:49:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11048 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (daemon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10960 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806091249.FAA10960@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA265550751; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:12:32 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: IPFW problem? To: freebsd@tomqnx.com (Tom Torrance) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:12:31 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tom Torrance" at Jun 9, 98 04:12:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some mail from Tom Torrance, sie said: > > The sample file to the contrary, it appears that ipfw will not > allow the "established" keyword for the "allow icmp" case. > > Is this a misunderstanding on my part or a genuine fault"? > > Is there another way to allow ICMP only as part of the TCP protocol? No. Not even IP Filter does this (yet). It does for NAT (that is ICMP headers packets are checked for relevance to an active NAT mapping) and is on my TODO list for "keep state" 'connections' too. You've got several problems here, if you want to do it for ipfw, the first being it has no concept of what "sessions" are currently in progress across/through the firewall (whereas IP Filter can). Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 05:51:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11505 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:51:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from email.alpcom.it (email.alpcom.it [193.42.134.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11395 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:50:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Lorenzo.Cavassa@ALPcom.IT) Received: from monviso.alpcom.it by ALPCOM.IT (PMDF V5.1-9 #23639) with SMTP id <01IY1BKIPF5S004E9Z@ALPCOM.IT> for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:50:11 MET Received: by monviso.alpcom.it (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) id MAA15380; Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:49:47 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:09:14 +0100 From: Lorenzo.Cavassa@ALPcom.IT (Lorenzo Cavassa) Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-reply-to: <19980608143347.59513@follo.net> To: eivind@yes.no Cc: katz@robotics.Stanford.EDU, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: Lorenzo.Cavassa@ALPcom.IT Message-id: Organization: ALPnet - The Network Provider MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Yarn 0.92 with YES 0.22 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Editor: VIM 5.0 - http://www.vim.org X-PGP-Key-fingerprint: 203C 79AE 2A7A 6147 D4A8 8BEE D26A 06EB X-Mobile-Phone: +39 347 2731795 - SMS welcomed! Lines: 19 References: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> <199806080414.XAA01195@dyson.iquest.net> <19980608143347.59513@follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <19980608143347.59513@follo.net>, you wrote: : On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:14:29PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: : > for massive filesystem manipulations. FreeBSD consiously chooses : > the conservative policy though. : : ... and (as John well knows) it can be tuned to run an async policy : similar to the one in Linux. Which policy you run is a tradeoff how? thanx! Lorenzo -- ============================================================ Key fingerprint : 203C 79AE 2A7A 6147 D4A8 8BEE D26A 06EB KeyID : 1024/833FB7FD -- Key available on keyservers ============================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 05:55:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12678 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12673 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08735; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:55:48 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA19812; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:55:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980609145511.49071@follo.net> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:55:11 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Lorenzo.Cavassa@ALPcom.IT Cc: katz@robotics.Stanford.EDU, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. References: <199806080349.UAA29145@grebe.Stanford.EDU> <199806080414.XAA01195@dyson.iquest.net> <19980608143347.59513@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Lorenzo Cavassa on Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 09:09:14PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 09:09:14PM +0100, Lorenzo Cavassa wrote: > In article <19980608143347.59513@follo.net>, you wrote: > : On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:14:29PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > : > for massive filesystem manipulations. FreeBSD consiously chooses > : > the conservative policy though. > : > : ... and (as John well knows) it can be tuned to run an async policy > : similar to the one in Linux. Which policy you run is a tradeoff > > how? Add 'async' to your mount options. More information is available by looking at the manpages for mount and fstab. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 06:04:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14077 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA14065 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:04:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11782; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:01:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: ben@rosengart.com To: Tom Torrance cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFW problem? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Tom Torrance wrote: > The sample file to the contrary, it appears that ipfw will not > allow the "established" keyword for the "allow icmp" case. > > Is this a misunderstanding on my part or a genuine fault"? 'Established' matches on the ACK bit to make sure a packet is part of an established connection, right? It's a misunderstanding: ICMP is connectionless. > Is there another way to allow ICMP only as part of the TCP protocol? I'm not sure I understand this. ICMP is logically at the same level as TCP, it goes over IP. Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 06:35:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21754 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21725 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:34:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elect8 (elect8.jrc.it [139.191.71.152]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5688) with SMTP id PAA29903; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:34:40 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:28:47 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8 Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Lorenzo.Cavassa@ALPcom.IT cc: FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : ... and (as John well knows) it can be tuned to run an async policy > : similar to the one in Linux. Which policy you run is a tradeoff > > how? mount -o async or while the system is running mount -o update,async Example rm -rf /usr (coule of thousand files) Takes minutes. mount -o update,async /usr ; rm -rf /usr ; mount -o update,sync /usr Takes 2 seconds on a pentiumII and 13 seconds on a P233 (SDRAM, both cases) Try it! And see for yourself! BIG GRIN :-]]] If you have anything operational, DON'T USE ASYNC! You'll have 0 byte files before you know it after a crash/unexpected reboot. And believe me, you're going to search all over the place to find that one. Be warned. Nick STA-ISIS, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, Italy building: 27A tel.: +39 332 78 9549 fax.: +39 332 78 9185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 06:35:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21848 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:35:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@COPLAND.CODA.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.222.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21820 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA18154; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:34:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:34:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Tom Secula cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: isp billing s/w In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980513212416.006ee1cc@diablo.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tom, Did you ever receive an answer to this question? Unfortunately, I do not know of any, but would be very interested in hearing about one. One of the web services providers I work with uses BSD/OS and a Cisco router, and would love to get flow measurements by-IP into their existing billing system. Thanks On Wed, 13 May 1998, Tom Secula wrote: > has anyone developed an application for isp billing that can use exported > cisco netflow records or could poll the cisco ip precedence accounting mib ? > - Tom Secula > - voice 609-478-4579 > - fax 609-478-2842 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 07:52:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09777 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09675 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:51:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kengl+@andrew.cmu.edu) Received: from po6.andrew.cmu.edu (PO6.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.106]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28100 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po6.andrew.cmu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.2) id KAA02816 for freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: via switchmail; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nyquist.ini.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nyquist.ini.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jun.27.1996.03.02.53.sun4.51.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.nyquist.ini.cmu.edu.sun4m.54 via MS.5.6.nyquist.ini.cmu.edu.sun4_51; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Lian Keng Lim To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: mbufs Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, does anyone know what the size of the mbuf pool is for FreeBSD and whether this size is configurable? many thanks for any info. Keng. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 07:53:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10025 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:53:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09969 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11820; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:52:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: ben@rosengart.com To: Nick Hibma cc: Lorenzo.Cavassa@ALPcom.IT, FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Nick Hibma wrote: > mount -o update,async /usr ; rm -rf /usr ; mount -o update,sync /usr ^^^^ No, you mean "noasync". Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 07:54:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10330 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10244 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:54:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elect8 (elect8.jrc.it [139.191.71.152]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5688) with SMTP id QAA03544 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:54:07 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:48:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8 Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Nick Hibma wrote: > > > mount -o update,async /usr ; rm -rf /usr ; mount -o update,sync /usr > ^^^^ > No, you mean "noasync". 2.2.6 uses sync. Tried it yesterday. Nick STA-ISIS, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, Italy building: 27A tel.: +39 332 78 9549 fax.: +39 332 78 9185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 08:12:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14884 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13795; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id AAA10485; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:07:45 +0900 (JST) To: Mike Smith cc: core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org In-reply-to: mike's message of Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:14:10 MST. <199806090414.VAA00467@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: new config From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:07:45 +0900 Message-ID: <10481.897404865@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry that I was silent after starting the thread. I was dead busy today, too long meetings... (order of the quotation changed for some places) >Can you clarify when you talk about "new config", do you specifically >mean the "new config" tool, or an improved bus/resource/driver model? I think they will come together, but I'm talking about bus/resource/driver model, not the "new config" tool itself. More specifically, clearer bus identification/separation with "struct device" is what I really need. I really believe that the driver structure must be cleaned up, right away. (Maybe the subject "new config" made you misunderstand) >Newconfig imposes very strict hierarchical structure on the system, and >whilst well-geared towards a static configuration, is much less well >suited to dynamic operation (my evaluation only). Bearing in mind that >it has been at least a year since I had anything to do with newconfig, >I'd be interested in more clarification. Just to clarify, I don't say that "new config" is the magic wand for LKM drivers and statically-linked drivers. The structure generated by "new config" is just for statically-linked drivers. Also, what I really want to push is driver clarification by using "struct device". Even if structure generated by "new config" is not a solution for LKM, it is very important for FreeBSD kernel as a whole. Even if FULL-LKM-FreeBSD day has come, you'll need some (or minimal) static configuration for, say, IDE hard drive or pcic/cardbus controller. Even if you have newly formatted "static" driver configuration table, LKMs are possible. Other BSDs are working on LKMs on new driver configuration table, so I think they do not make much difference. "new config" does not make a big difference to LKMs. >> - With old config, the order of probe/attach is defined sorely by >> the type of bus, say, pci_configure() then isa_configure(). >> There are devices that are not happy with this method, such as >> cardbus controller. >This is very similar to newconfig, where discovery is performed in a >tree-recursive fashion, no? As I said, you'll need minimal static configuration table, anyway. For that tree-recursive is order of magnitude better than per-bus configuration order. >> - PAO/laptop support people would like to have separate bus type >> for pccard and cardbus. Cardbus people feels that they cannot make >There is nothing stopping the CardBus people having a new bus type for >CardBus; here I can see how the new config style of resource control by >parent indirection would help. So, I need common management structure based on "struct device" for every drivers. >> - Cannot pass "flags" field to pci devices. >Here we run up against one of the fundamental problems that the entire >BSD config structure, new and old, possess - you can't pass parameters >to something that you haven't already defined. >If I have three instances of some hardware that uses the 'foo' driver, >and I want to pass a parameter to one of the three, the parameter has >to be associated with a structure that will in turn be associated with >this hardware, and the structure has to be defined in advance. >This makes truly dynamic handling of hardware very difficult. It is >one of the reasons that nobody has become terribly enthused about "new >config" - it's not that much better than "old config". I never said that "new config" is the magic wand for all the LKM problems. It is a just starting point for clarification. "new config" solves static part of kernel configuration. It changes nothing for LKM-based drivers, I believe. I have a question: do you have the solution for the problem you raised in the above? Even with FULL-LKM-FreeBSD, you'll have some static drivers in your minimal kernel anyway. How do you pass configuration parameter for those drivers? How do you pass configuration parameter for LKM drivers? If everything can be automatically probed, that's really nice, a system of the dream. However, we got many badly-behaving hardwares that cannot be automatically probed at all (for example, cardbus chipsets that left uninitialized by bad BIOS). Just for example, BSDI has /etc/boot.default as text-based kernel config modification file. It has ability to disable/enable drivers, define irq/iomem for isa drivers, and so forth. This makes GENERIC driver workable on most platforms. This kind of approach can solve parameter-passing problems for statically configured drivers. >> - isapnp/pci should have a separate bustype from isa, of course. >Not at all. The issue here is one of functional separation between the >"probe" and "attach" components. Probes are inherently bus specific, >but attaches are not, provided that the correct bus abstraction is >provided to the attach. A major problem faced with migrating our >current (ISA) driver base towards this model is that many drivers >perform parts of their hardware setup in the probe, and do not duplicate >them in the attach. This means that all probes, even those that use >completely out-of-band detection methods (eg. PnP) have to pretend to >probe the "old" way. There were bunch of cardbus discussion in PAO group. The answer always end up with "current driver architecture depends too much onto isa. we can't go forward without bus type separation". >> - It is becoming really hard to port something from/to FreeBSD to/from >> NetBSD or BSDI. >You can point fingers in any direction here. It's hard to come down on >either side of the issue. Is it okay for you if FreeBSD is "left out" just by not integrating advanced device configuration structures (struct device)? I'm having too much troubles porting network code and driver code back and forth between three BSDs, and end up that FreeBSD kernel is too different from others... (maybe, this is just personal feeling...) >> I understand that FreeBSD-current kernel is targetted toward >> LKM-centric approach, but I believe new config is inevitable for >> future development of FreeBSD kernel. >It is inevitable purely and simply if someone(s) stand up and do the >work. If you can sell the basic idea, and make it clear that it will >work for people (like me) that feel strongly about this architecture, >then it will truly be inevitable. Alright, maybe I should send you the initial patch with some drivers modified... >> I propose to have separate repository for a while for "new config" >> migration (machine and disk is almost ready, hosted by jp.freebsd >> camp), and merge it into freefall if completed. >Perhaps it would be better to use a branch on the main repository? We maybe think again about the plans, but I think there are too many non-committer workers. Also, to merge this in it needs some time. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 08:31:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19325 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (dsiegel@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19272 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dave@siegelie.com) Received: (from dsiegel@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06977; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:31:09 -0700 (MST) From: Dave Siegel Message-Id: <199806091531.IAA06977@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Re: isp billing s/w In-Reply-To: from Robert Watson at "Jun 9, 98 09:34:40 am" To: robert@cyrus.watson.org Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:31:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: tsecula@cisco.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Did you ever receive an answer to this question? Unfortunately, I do not > know of any, but would be very interested in hearing about one. One of > the web services providers I work with uses BSD/OS and a Cisco router, and > would love to get flow measurements by-IP into their existing billing > system. there is a free one at ftp://ftp.rtd.com/pub/uta/uta-21.tar.gz (or something close to that). this billing software can use any unix application to generate output for a service line item on the invoice. I don't know that flow measurements are exactly what you want, however. There are probably other ways to get the information you want (you haven't gone into any detail). flow data is *very* expensive to process, summarize, and store...or at least it can be depending on your application. Dave > Thanks > > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Tom Secula wrote: > > > has anyone developed an application for isp billing that can use exported > > cisco netflow records or could poll the cisco ip precedence accounting mib ? > > - Tom Secula > > - voice 609-478-4579 > > - fax 609-478-2842 > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > > Robert N Watson > > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- Dave Siegel (520)572-9041 (work) Sr. Network Engineer (520)990-4883 (mobile) Frontier Globalcenter http://www.rtd.com/~dsiegel/ dsiegel@globacenter.net dave@siegelie.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 08:44:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22285 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:44:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from horst.bfd.com (horst.bfd.com [204.160.242.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22175 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Received: from harlie.bfd.com (bastion.bfd.com [204.160.242.14]) by horst.bfd.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA11732; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ejs@bfd.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:43:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eric J. Schwertfeger" To: Dave Siegel cc: robert@cyrus.watson.org, tsecula@cisco.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: isp billing s/w In-Reply-To: <199806091531.IAA06977@seagull.rtd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Dave Siegel wrote: > I don't know that flow measurements are exactly what you want, however. > There are probably other ways to get the information you want (you haven't > gone into any detail). flow data is *very* expensive to process, summarize, > and store...or at least it can be depending on your application. True, if you're only interested in bytes-per-ip-address, that can be done using ipfw and a perl script invoked by cron to extract the counts, provided everything you need to track flows through one (or one of a set of) freebsd box(es). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 08:50:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23878 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23628 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04291; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd004289; Tue Jun 9 15:37:22 1998 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:37:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Darren Reed cc: Tom Torrance , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFW problem? In-Reply-To: <199806091249.FAA10960@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG IPFW relies on a separate module (libnat) to keep track of stateful sessions. you could add code to libnat to do what you want julian On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Darren Reed wrote: > In some mail from Tom Torrance, sie said: > > > > The sample file to the contrary, it appears that ipfw will not > > allow the "established" keyword for the "allow icmp" case. > > > > Is this a misunderstanding on my part or a genuine fault"? > > > > Is there another way to allow ICMP only as part of the TCP protocol? > > No. > > Not even IP Filter does this (yet). It does for NAT (that is ICMP > headers packets are checked for relevance to an active NAT mapping) > and is on my TODO list for "keep state" 'connections' too. You've > got several problems here, if you want to do it for ipfw, the first > being it has no concept of what "sessions" are currently in progress > across/through the firewall (whereas IP Filter can). > > Darren > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 08:51:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24034 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:51:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nexus.astro.psu.edu (nexus.astro.psu.edu [128.118.147.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23627 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@astro.psu.edu) Received: from mstar.astro.psu.edu by nexus.astro.psu.edu (4.1/Nexus-1.3) id AA22708; Tue, 9 Jun 98 11:49:30 EDT Received: by mstar.astro.psu.edu (SMI-8.6/Client-1.3) id LAA27188; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:49:28 -0400 Message-Id: <19980609114927.A27109@mstar.astro.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:49:27 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: Nick Hibma , FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. (fwd) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nick Hibma on Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 04:48:13PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 04:48:13PM +0200, Nick Hibma wrote: > > No, you mean "noasync". > > 2.2.6 uses sync. Tried it yesterday. "sync" and "noasync" are different, by my reading of "man mount". I think "sync" causes all I/O to be done synchronously, while "noasync" only causes synchronous metadata I/O. More evidence that they are different: flarn:~# mount | grep /var /dev/wd0s1e on /var (local) flarn:~# mount -u -o async /var flarn:~# mount | grep /var /dev/wd0s1e on /var (asynchronous, local) flarn:~# mount -u -o sync /var flarn:~# mount | grep /var /dev/wd0s1e on /var (local, synchronous) flarn:~# mount -u -o nosync /var flarn:~# mount | grep /var /dev/wd0s1e on /var (local) -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 09:07:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28636 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28496 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:07:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806091607.JAA28496@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA296178420; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:07:00 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:06:59 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Installing 2.2.6 has been smooth except that various dependencies are broken. For example, something depended on rzsz* (not present) and another on ghostscript (also not present). Glad I wasn't counting on either of them anyway! Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 10:15:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14716 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:15:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14702 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28736 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id NAA06731; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Lian Keng Lim cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com Subject: Re: mbufs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Lian Keng Lim wrote: > hi, > does anyone know what the size of the mbuf pool is for FreeBSD and > whether this size is configurable? > many thanks for any info. > Keng. The size is what you set it to :) Use the kernel option "option NMBCLUSTERS=4096" for 4K worth of clusters or higher if needed. Or increase maxusers higher as well. Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 10:38:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19918 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:38:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19837 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA02361; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:40:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:39:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: Darren Reed cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-Reply-To: <199806091607.JAA28496@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Darren Reed wrote: > >Installing 2.2.6 has been smooth except that various dependencies are broken. >For example, something depended on rzsz* (not present) and another on >ghostscript (also not present). Glad I wasn't counting on either of them >anyway! Not sure what you mean by broken. I too had a lot of dependancies that weren't taken care of when I loaded 2.2.6. I think, however, that I found all the missing packages on one of the other disks. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 11:41:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05242 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:41:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05148 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id UAA06493 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:41:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id UAA08499 for hackers@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:25:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980609202515.A8489@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:25:15 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD hackers mailing list References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Nick Hibma on Tue, Jun 09, 1998 at 03:28:47PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4311 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Nick Hibma: > mount -o update,async /usr ; rm -rf /usr ; mount -o update,sync /usr The reverse of "async" is "noasync", not "sync" I believe. > If you have anything operational, DON'T USE ASYNC! You'll have 0 byte > files before you know it after a crash/unexpected reboot. And believe > me, you're going to search all over the place to find that one. Some of us have been using "async" mounts for years (including John Dyson) without losing anything. Before switching to softupdates, everything on my disks except /, /usr and /var were "async"... So YMMV :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 12:04:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10886 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:04:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (mail.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA10276 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:02:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ernie!bert.kts.org!hm@ppp.net) Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0yjTek-002ZjjC; Tue, 9 Jun 98 21:02 MET DST Received: from bert.kts.org(really [194.55.156.2]) by ernie.kts.org via sendmail with smtp id for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:56:10 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #3 built 1998-Feb-14) Received: by bert.kts.org via sendmail with stdio id for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:51:40 +0200 (CEST) (Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #1 built 1998-Jun-6) Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-Reply-To: <199806091607.JAA28496@hub.freebsd.org> from Darren Reed at "Jun 10, 98 02:06:59 am" To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:51:40 +0200 (CEST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Darren Reed wrote: > Installing 2.2.6 has been smooth except that various dependencies are broken. I noticed the same. Later i found them on CD #4. Some dependencies on CD #4 are then on CD #1. I think it would be too much work to sort out the packages and their dependencies to be either all on CD #4 or all on CD #1. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe A duck is like a bicycle because they both have two wheels except the duck (terry@cs.weber.edu) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 12:48:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19452 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:48:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19412 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25796; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:47:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA17356; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:47:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.cybercom.net: ksmm owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:47:58 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive X-Sender: ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net To: "Christopher R. Bowman" cc: Darren Reed , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Christopher R. Bowman wrote: : Not sure what you mean by broken. I too had a lot of dependancies that : weren't taken care of when I loaded 2.2.6. I think, however, that I : found all the missing packages on one of the other disks. I assume he means that the packages and their dependencies did not install cleanly (which is consistent with what I saw). Praytell, which CD of the four has the missing packages? Does it have all the packages contained on the first CD as well as the missing ones? Thanks in advance, K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 13:12:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23871 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23826 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA15614 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:42:29 +0200 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.8/8.6.12) id UAA01766; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:20:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199806091820.UAA01766@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-Reply-To: from Lorenzo Cavassa at "Jun 8, 98 09:09:14 pm" To: Lorenzo.Cavassa@ALPcom.IT Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:20:35 +0200 (CEST) Cc: eivind@yes.no, katz@robotics.Stanford.EDU, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As Lorenzo Cavassa wrote... > In article <19980608143347.59513@follo.net>, you wrote: > : On Sun, Jun 07, 1998 at 11:14:29PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > : > for massive filesystem manipulations. FreeBSD consiously chooses > : > the conservative policy though. > : > : ... and (as John well knows) it can be tuned to run an async policy > : similar to the one in Linux. Which policy you run is a tradeoff > > how? man mount _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands WWW: http://www.tcja.nl ______________________________________________ Powered by FreeBSD __________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 13:30:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27993 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beatrice.rutgers.edu (beatrice.rutgers.edu [165.230.209.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA27891 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from easmith@beatrice.rutgers.edu) Received: (from easmith@localhost) by beatrice.rutgers.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id QAA01010; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:29:03 -0400 From: "Allen Smith" Message-Id: <9806091629.ZM1008@beatrice.rutgers.edu> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:29:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: Snob Art Genre "Re: Newbie 3 questions." (Jun 9, 1:40am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: ben@rosengart.com Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. Cc: Eivind Eklund , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 9, 1:40am, Snob Art Genre (possibly) wrote: > On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Allen Smith wrote: > > > Is async necessary/desirable for an MFS, or is it automatic? From the > > 4.4BSD book, I know that the 4.4BSD MFS is built just like a FFS, only > > using pageable memory space instead of filesystem space. > > Sync and async refer to policies for when to commit certain writes to > disk. MFS lives in RAM, except when it's paged out, and then it's the > pager algorithm that determines which pages get written to disk, not the > metadata update scheme. So far as I can tell, the MFS uses the normal filesystem buffer cache, with transfers to the mount_mfs process's memory determined by the policies of that cache. Since some overhead is experienced with the memory copying, context switching, etcetera, it would be desirable to delay such as long as possible, or at least to avoid having a writing process delayed until such was done. After a closer look at the source code, it appears that ufs_direnter, ufs_dirremove, and ufs_dirrewrite use the MNT_ASYNC flag to tell whether to call bdwrite (which will simply mark the buffer dirty - called with MNT_ASYNC) or bwrite (which will wait on it to be done - called without MNT_ASYNC). In other words, mounting a MFS filesystem async may indeed help. (Of course, I'm by no means an expert, so I'd appreciate corrections to this.) I may later do some experiments to check on this - we'll be using an MFS for Squid. -Allen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 13:32:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28404 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27637; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21923; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:27:20 +0200 (CEST) To: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh cc: Mike Smith , core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:07:45 +0900." <10481.897404865@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 22:27:20 +0200 Message-ID: <21921.897424040@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have spent much time on the question of configuration, and because of lack of time I have not implemented my conclusion. Not that it would take long time to implement, quite the contrary, but because it would take long time to fight the battles against the "traditionalists" Basically: 1. Kernel contains a filesystem (MFS kind of thing). 2. Kernel initializes and mounts MFS as root filesystem. 3. Userland programs on the MFS, preferably in script form, direct the probe and attach process. 4. The last part of the configuration script mounts the quasi-root on "/rootfs" and establish symlinks to make things look like they used to: for i in etc bin sbin usr var tmp do ln -s /rootfs/$i done 5. Delete files no longer needed on the MFS to preserve RAM This has many advantages: 1. Device probe and attach happens in a "normal environment" timeouts work, you can microcode from files (from the MFS) 2. Much more complex instructions can be given to the driver at probe/attach time, without bloating the kernel. 3. You can probe/attach devices later on if you feel like it. 4. Loadable drivers will not be different from normal drivers, infact all drivers could be loadable and stored on the MFS, if they didn't find anything, we unload them again. 5. User has full control over probe/attach process 6. There is nothing magic about fsck'ing the rootfs. 7. There is nothing magic about the rootfs 8. Probe / Attach can easily be made interactive, vastly adding to the flexibility of the userconfig scheme. The few problems: 1. How to control the contents of the MFS filesystem. 2. Change drivers to probe/attach in civilized environment 3. Fix MFS to consume memory "as needed" only. 4. Convince the traditionalists that this is the right way to do things. References: AIX does it pretty much this way. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 13:45:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01625 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01028; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA02437; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806091239.FAA02437@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Atsushi Furuta cc: mike@smith.net.au, itojun@itojun.org, core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:57:46 +0900." <199806090657.PAA27116@sras63.sra.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 05:39:32 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> In article <199806090414.VAA00467@antipodes.cdrom.com>, > Mike Smith writes: > > > Newconfig imposes very strict hierarchical structure on the system, and > > whilst well-geared towards a static configuration, is much less well > > suited to dynamic operation (my evaluation only). Bearing in mind that > > it has been at least a year since I had anything to do with newconfig, > > I'd be interested in more clarification. > > Please tell me your definition of "static/dynamic configuration" in > this context. > > My understanding: > > static configuration -> to give parameters in compile time > dynamic configuration -> to give parameters in boot time > > Is this correct? Close. Static configuration bases everything on resources incorporated at compile time, yes. Dynamic configuration uses resources available at run time; not just user input before/during the boot process. In the context above, the key features of a "dynamic" approach include: - The ability to create/delete new instances of a driver. - The ability to create/delete new instances of a bus. - The ability to retain parametric hints for unknown driver instances. - The ability to obtain and manage resource information. - The ability to load/unload code supporting new devices/busses. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 13:51:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02658 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:51:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02528 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22307; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:50:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd022228; Tue Jun 9 13:50:00 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA09520; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:49:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806092049.NAA09520@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new config To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:49:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: itojun@itojun.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <2238.897372943@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 8, 98 11:15:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > If something is already decided about this topic, please give me > > some pointer for the discussion archive. I do not want to spend > > my time to this, if it will never be merged into. > > Well, every time this comes up, a number of folks chime in with "but > config(8) is fundamentally WRONG! We must get rid of it entirely, not > upgrade it!" and it is my suggestion that you simply ignore all of > those people and go right on ahead with this idea. > > The reason I suggest ignoring them has to do with the fact that it's > exceedingly easy to point out the flaws in config(8) but obviously not > so easy to architect a complete replacement or someone would have done > so by now. Note that I'm not even talking about an implementation, > I'm talking about a reasonable attempt to even _architect_ such a > thing. I've seen many a pie-in-the-sky treatise go by about how > things ought to work, but not much which really went into significant > detail on how a migration away from config(8) should be done and a > sample timeline showing which tasks will need to be done and in what > order. 1) Commit the ELF/a.out bootblock changes, the location of which was posted to the -current list some time ago. Yes, I know this leaves only 28 bytes and you have to disable the spashkit and the bad144 to build blocks that can boot both a.out and ELF kernels. I don't care. The bootblock issue is a boondoggle. It will go away when the a.out code is removed. The problem of bootblock size can be dealt with later; it won't hurt to put it off indefiniately, since it's been being put off since October of 1993 anyway. 2) Switch -current to ELF by default. You shouldn't be running -current unless you are either participating in or testing active developement work. ELF is active developement work. Switching -current to ELF *now* is within the charter for -current, as well as being a good idea: shake out the ELF problems *now*, not just prior to 3.0R, or you will regret it (the shakeout *must* occur; whether this happens before or after 3.0 is released is up to the people with commit priviledges). 3) Load only specifically attributed ELF sections. Section attribution via #pragma, ala MS Visual C++, was added by Cygnus support a while back, in their support of compilation of WIN32 programs using gcc. In general, these are sections marked "preload" by the compiler that you would be loading. The ELF bootblock can aready do this; they don't load debug sections, AFAIR. 4) Transition linker sets to inter-section loader agregates instead of true linker agregation. This will allow "sysinit" set elements to live in seperate ELF sections, yet function as if they were statically linked. I will be happy to help with this, but it's not brain surgery, and it's an obvious win for supporting pure virtual bas classes and Templates in ELF C++. You might even convince the Linux people to do the work for you... 5) Seperately attribute sections by driver name. Cygnus Support added this, as well, in support of the ability to develope WIN32 DLL's, COM modules, Active X components, and Windows 95/NT Virtual Device Drivers (VxD's). At this point, it is the job of an image archiver, *not* a linker, to "aggregate" drivers into the kernel image. The changes in (3), above, allow this to work. Basically, this is going through all the drivers and adding the appropriate "#pragma"'s to them. 6) Make room in the bootblocks. The simplest method would be to delete the a.out code. If someone doesn't want this to happen, then that "someone" should implement a three stage boot loader to resolve the problem, or the "someone" can lump it over the fact that their a,out kernels will no longer load. 7) Add code to the bootblocks to load the elf sections from multiple files. Instead of just the kernel file itself, a "/modules/active" directory containing discrete ELF modules (or call it whatever the hell is the most politically correct thing to call it, I don't care) is scanned, and all ELF images sections that meet the criteria in (3), above, are loaded. Now adding a commercial driver is as simple as copying an ELF module into a directory. This implies a number of small changes to the kernel build process; specifically, it implies the use of "ld -r" to make drivers atomic, single-file ELF objects. This is trivial to do, since the "-r" option is already supported by the binutils linker. 8) Write a small program that knows how to make hard links between "/modules/installed/xyz" and "/modules/active/xyz". Call the damn thing "config", if you want, so long as it routes around the political (rather than techinical) opposition. 9) Delete the original "config" program, since there is no longer any reason to perform variant builds. If you need a variant build, implement it semantically by providing a different module for each variation of the build, and making the apropriate hard links. Voila, no more variant builds, only variant modules. 10) Allow seperate sections to be discarded, and the pages used recovered, by the kernel. This is VM work, and need John Dyson or some other masochist like John to work on it. It is fundamentally kernel paging support. You will need to support the #pragma assigned "non-pageable" attribute at this point. You should also suppoirt the attribute "initialization" and/or "discardable". 11) Utilizing the facilities above, remove the need for dealing with the hard link management program from (8), above. This is accomplished by utilising the code changes in (10) to support: a) Fallback drivers, which are replaced when specific hardware is claimed by another driver. b) Loading of probe code seperate from other code, attempting the probe, and unloading the probe code if the probe fails. If the probe succeeds, then the rest of the driver is loaded, and the device is attached. And once again, the probe code is discarded. 12) Delete the hard link management program. It's no longer necessary. All installed drivers can be marked as "active". Now there is no such thing as "config" in any way, shape, or form. 13) Use "install"/"uninstall" to configure code. For PCI and other devices with generically discernable vendor ID's, you can put up "new hardware found, install driver?" requesters. 2 Bonus points 14) Document and firm up the interfaces used by drivers. Ideally, this will conform to the SCO/Novell/Sun driver framework so that FreeBSD can use driver disks supplied by hardware vendors. 15) Implement a VxD environment emulation. This will allow use of NT miniport drivers. If done right, you will be able to use drivers for PPC and Alpha hardware, as well. > If the new-paradigm weenies also want to use that as a > sufficient goad to get them to really implement a complete > replacement, then that's pretty much a win too since nothing else > seems to be motivating them these days. Please talk to the Johns (Polstra/Birrell) about starting on this list; specifically, someone with commit priviledges should commit the existing code that implements #1 on this grocery list some time very soon. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 14:03:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04642 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from att.com (kcgw1.att.com [192.128.133.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA04399; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:02:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sbabkin@dcn.att.com) From: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Received: by kcgw1.att.com; Tue Jun 9 16:02 CDT 1998 Received: from dcn71.dcn.att.com ([135.44.192.112]) by kcig1.att.att.com (AT&T/GW-1.0) with ESMTP id QAA16763; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:02:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: by dcn71.dcn.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:01:40 -0400 Message-ID: To: itojun@iijlab.net, phk@critter.freebsd.dk Cc: mike@smith.net.au, core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: RE: new config Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:01:38 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ---------- > From: Poul-Henning Kamp[SMTP:phk@critter.freebsd.dk] > > I have spent much time on the question of configuration, and because > of > lack of time I have not implemented my conclusion. > That's a really great concept! > 4. The last part of the configuration script mounts the > quasi-root on "/rootfs" and establish symlinks to > make things look like they used to: > > for i in etc bin sbin usr var tmp > do > ln -s /rootfs/$i > done > > 5. Delete files no longer needed on the MFS to preserve RAM > Alternative approach: mount the traditional root filesystem on /, and the config-filesystem on /stand or something like. > The few problems: > > 1. How to control the contents of the MFS filesystem. ... > 3. Fix MFS to consume memory "as needed" only. > Because this filesystem is almost-read-only (files can only be removed), it can be very simplified. In the simplest case, it can be just a tar image of this filesystem added to the end of the kernel image. The bootstrap code will automatically load it into the memory. The speed of lookup is not important, so the simple contiguous tar image is perfect. Each page can be freed after all files in the image located in this page are removed. This will need some changes to the VM subsystem that will have to recognize this tar image after the end of kernel image in memory. -Serge To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 14:10:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05870 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05499; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22168; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:07:26 +0200 (CEST) To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com cc: itojun@iijlab.net, mike@smith.net.au, core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 17:01:38 EDT." Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:07:25 +0200 Message-ID: <22166.897426445@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , sbabkin@dcn.att.com writes: >> 4. The last part of the configuration script mounts the >> quasi-root on "/rootfs" and establish symlinks to >> make things look like they used to: >> >> for i in etc bin sbin usr var tmp >> do >> ln -s /rootfs/$i >> done >> >> 5. Delete files no longer needed on the MFS to preserve RAM >> >Alternative approach: mount the traditional root filesystem >on /, and the config-filesystem on /stand or something like. That would take more magic, which doesn't buy us any advantage that I can see. There even is a performance gain in having the / directory live in ram. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 14:38:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10148 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:38:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from soleil.uvsq.fr (soleil.uvsq.fr [193.51.24.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10113 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from son@cezanne.prism.uvsq.fr) Received: from cezanne.prism.uvsq.fr (rtc105.reseau.uvsq.fr [193.51.24.21]) by soleil.uvsq.fr (8.8.8/jtpda-5.3) with ESMTP id XAA16022 ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:38:09 +0200 (METDST) Received: (from son@localhost) by cezanne.prism.uvsq.fr (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA00577; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:44:07 GMT Message-ID: <19980609234406.41618@breizh.prism.uvsq.fr> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:44:06 +0000 From: Nicolas Souchu To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Marc Bouget Subject: I2C bus Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e X-Operating-System: FreeBSD breizh 3.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi there, We're about to write Philips semiconductor support for the I2C bus. Of course, we think about writing something generic for the bus and specific independent code for different controllers (ISA, parallel...) If well designed this framework could accept new later developments with I2C support (ex. hardware monitoring and so on). The purpose of this mail is to collect: 1- opinions about the idea 2- suggestions about the architecture 3- pratical examples of using such a system Our plan is to develop a basic I/O driver for an ISA controller with no bus abstraction (almost ok), then write bus abstraction, a parallel controller driver to validate bus abstraction, and finally an IP network driver to validate the system. Thanks for your contribution. nicolas -- Nicolas.Souchu@prism.uvsq.fr FreeBSD - Turning PCs into workstations - http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 15:17:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16069 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16058 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elect8 (elect8.jrc.it [139.191.71.152]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5688) with SMTP id AAA11467; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:16:04 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:10:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8 Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Ollivier Robert cc: FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: Newbie 3 questions. In-Reply-To: <19980609202515.A8489@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The reverse of "async" is "noasync", not "sync" I believe. I believe you. One is never to young/dumb to learn. > > Some of us have been using "async" mounts for years (including John Dyson) > without losing anything. Before switching to softupdates, everything on my > disks except /, /usr and /var were "async"... > > So YMMV :-) 1st) I live in Italy and 2 people live in one house that is restricted to one kilowatt. Why ? I don't know. I do know where the fuses are however. 2nd) I do kernel programming :-) My makefile ends with a sync and does a sync every other command. Paranoid is the word I believe. Nick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 15:32:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18879 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:32:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18466; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07111; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:29:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd007004; Tue Jun 9 15:29:22 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA17328; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:29:12 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806092229.PAA17328@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new config To: phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:29:12 +0000 (GMT) Cc: sbabkin@dcn.att.com, itojun@iijlab.net, mike@smith.net.au, core@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <22166.897426445@critter.freebsd.dk> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jun 9, 98 11:07:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> 5. Delete files no longer needed on the MFS to preserve RAM > >> > >Alternative approach: mount the traditional root filesystem > >on /, and the config-filesystem on /stand or something like. > > That would take more magic, which doesn't buy us any advantage > that I can see. There even is a performance gain in having > the / directory live in ram. One thing that would buy something is to mount an fs that looks like: / /dev On /, end then union mount the actual root on /, leaving the devfs exposed through the union. The / directory would be in RAM, but it would be in RAM in the devfs hierarchy. This would also reduce the init complexity, since init should not be responsible for the devfs mounts anyway. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 15:35:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19297 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19256 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:35:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14509; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806092235.PAA14509@rah.star-gate.com> To: Nicolas Souchu cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Marc Bouget , hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: I2C bus In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:44:06 -0000." <19980609234406.41618@breizh.prism.uvsq.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <14506.897431717.1@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:35:17 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You can try to post on the -multimedia mailing list since thats probably the most active mailing list with respect to I2C. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 16:34:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01527 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:34:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01339 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:32:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15709; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:32:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Darren Reed cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:06:59 +1000." <199806091607.JAA28496@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 16:32:02 -0700 Message-ID: <15706.897435122@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Installing 2.2.6 has been smooth except that various dependencies are broken. > For example, something depended on rzsz* (not present) and another on > ghostscript (also not present). Glad I wasn't counting on either of them > anyway! They're on the other CD. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 23:11:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03105 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA03064; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:11:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id XAA29238; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:17:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Jaye Mathisen Subject: RE: Is the DPT client in -stable usable? Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id XAA03070 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-Jun-98 Jaye Mathisen wisely wrote: > > > I remember seeing some people were having problems building kernels after > 2.2.6 with DPT problems, but didn't see anything about resolution. > > I just got a new DPT in with firmware 07M0, and it seems to be OK > under the stock 2.2.6 kernel, but I want to keep up with developments > in -stable, but of course, don't want a non-bootable machine when I'm > done. > > DPT stuff works great if you A: setup and initialize the drivers via DOS B: Drop to F4 and build a kernel with DPT support as it does not have it in thei r yet. One HUGE problem I have found is that I can't make world when using RAID 5. I s ent in a message about that with no response. Same card same everying, redone wi th 2 drives mirrored works great. Also I had a card barf today doing a make world -j3 on a 400 MHZ pent II system . It bailed and rebooted the system. Without the j3 it seems to be OK. I plan on using Lots of these cards. So any&all insight/info would be welcome. Nicole nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Tue Jun 9 23:48:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09050 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:48:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Amnesiac.123.org (mcl@Amnesiac.mtl.pl [195.116.4.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08992; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:48:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mcl@Amnesiac.123.org) Received: from localhost (mcl@localhost) by Amnesiac.123.org (8.9.0/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id IAA28755; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:48:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:48:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Michal Listos To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG cc: bugs@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: system shitdown using mount Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 'bry After visiting few pubs I tried to mount some device, but I mistyped it: # mount /mnt/foo /mnt *shitdown*, wtf? So I tried again, as expected, my box crashed again. FreeBSD Amnesiac.123.org 2.2.6-STABLE FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE #0: Tue Jun 2 17:07:14 CEST 1998 mcl@Amnesiac.123.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/mcl i386 Dunno about 3.0, but all earlier versions (at least >2.1.0) are buggy. Michal * On the Net, _somebody_ always knows that you're a dog. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNX4sJ71rJn1VyAj1AQEltwP9F5fzv12nvuK8c99QyJgZlyadhqucpSQ2 eZSbFKTHsRL1gahOCe/k4wJeXjRj0g0/NNPgMuvQtKsQemVSPnpLUbWSNpO/0pu6 6eIkrKgdXp0YmeZ4DSgy56wX/1HgSGFq7dZFV3EmWG2cS0pbZOTQz3bmoJdnekgR vl7aI2R1OKk= =Ipj8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 06:36:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29772 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29738 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:35:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806101335.GAA29738@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA175975728; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:35:28 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:35:27 +1000 (EST) Cc: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <15706.897435122@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 9, 98 04:32:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some mail from Jordan K. Hubbard, sie said: > > > Installing 2.2.6 has been smooth except that various dependencies are > > broken. > > For example, something depended on rzsz* (not present) and another on > > ghostscript (also not present). Glad I wasn't counting on either of them > > anyway! > > They're on the other CD. Then it should say so... ...also, it would be good if FreeBSD's sysinstall told you how much disk space each package would take up (sort of like Solaris's installation program). oh, is there ESS audio support for 2.2.* or is it in 3.0-current anyway ? Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 07:17:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07646 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:17:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA07614 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18326; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Darren Reed cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:35:27 +1000." <199806101335.GAA18157@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:17:34 -0700 Message-ID: <18322.897488254@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > They're on the other CD. > > Then it should say so... It does. Each and every README.TXT, including the one with "missing" packages or ports, notes its contents and whether or not some of those contents are on another CD (and, if so, which). RTFR. :) > ...also, it would be good if FreeBSD's sysinstall told you how much disk > space each package would take up (sort of like Solaris's installation > program). That would be good, yes. Pity that info's not readily available right now or I'd have added such a feature 3 years ago. If you have some clever method up your sleeve, I'm always happy to review diffs to parts of /usr/src/release. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 07:38:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12122 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11975 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18753; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Darren Reed cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:31:40 +1000." <199806101431.HAA18656@time.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:38:00 -0700 Message-ID: <18749.897489480@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Okay...I'm installing 2.2.6 right now and I'm at the "Package Selection" > menu. Strange, I see no way to read the README.TXT file for any of these > packages. No, I haven't yet completed the installation. Yes, I'm > installing packages as part of the base install and there is no README to > RTFR on :) Bah, don't be deliberately obtuse. :-) If you're running /stand/sysinstall by hand then you obviously know enough to mount the CD and peruse its contents directly as well. If you're actually installing the CD, then you can flip over to the Emergency Holographic Shell at the first sign of trouble and say "Hmmm, I wonder if this behavior is documented anywhere", that hopefully leading you to the /dist/README file also. :-) And no, for the record, I don't consider this ideal and if you want a long and painful explanation on the whole subject then please look through Dejanews or something since I recently covered the subject in great detail over in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 07:55:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16405 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pat.idi.ntnu.no (0@pat.idi.ntnu.no [129.241.103.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16335 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Tor.Egge@fast.no) From: Tor.Egge@fast.no Received: from idi.ntnu.no (tegge@ikke.idi.ntnu.no [129.241.111.65]) by pat.idi.ntnu.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09941; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:53:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199806101453.QAA09941@pat.idi.ntnu.no> To: mcl@Amnesiac.123.org Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: system shitdown using mount In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:48:03 +0200 (CEST)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:53:44 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > 'bry > > After visiting few pubs I tried to mount some device, > but I mistyped it: > # mount /mnt/foo /mnt > > *shitdown*, wtf? So I tried again, as expected, my box crashed again. /mnt was locked while ffs_mount tried to lookup /mnt/foo. This probably caused a panic in ufs_lock, since a recursive lock on /mnt was not expected. This behavior is also present in 3.0-CURRENT. I'm using the following patch (for 3.0-CURRENT), after having made a similar mistake with the mount command (I forgot to specify the '-t null' option). Index: sys/sys/vnode.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/sys/vnode.h,v retrieving revision 1.71 diff -u -5 -r1.71 vnode.h --- vnode.h 1998/05/11 03:55:16 1.71 +++ vnode.h 1998/05/14 22:07:55 @@ -156,10 +156,11 @@ #define VOWANT 0x20000 /* a process is waiting for VOLOCK */ #define VDOOMED 0x40000 /* This vnode is being recycled */ #define VFREE 0x80000 /* This vnode is on the freelist */ #define VTBFREE 0x100000 /* This vnode is on the to-be-freelist */ #define VONWORKLST 0x200000 /* On syncer work-list */ +#define VMOUNT 0x400000 /* Mount in progress */ /* * Vnode attributes. A field value of VNOVAL represents a field whose value * is unavailable (getattr) or which is not to be changed (setattr). */ Index: sys/kern/vfs_syscalls.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/kern/vfs_syscalls.c,v retrieving revision 1.101 diff -u -5 -r1.101 vfs_syscalls.c --- vfs_syscalls.c 1998/05/11 03:55:28 1.101 +++ vfs_syscalls.c 1998/05/14 22:07:27 @@ -239,14 +239,19 @@ break; if (vfsp == NULL) { vput(vp); return (ENODEV); } - if (vp->v_mountedhere != NULL) { + simple_lock(&vp->v_interlock); + if ((vp->v_flag & VMOUNT) != 0 || + vp->v_mountedhere != NULL) { + simple_unlock(&vp->v_interlock); vput(vp); return (EBUSY); } + vp->v_flag |= VMOUNT; + simple_unlock(&vp->v_interlock); /* * Allocate and initialize the filesystem. */ mp = (struct mount *)malloc((u_long)sizeof(struct mount), @@ -258,13 +263,13 @@ mp->mnt_vfc = vfsp; vfsp->vfc_refcount++; mp->mnt_stat.f_type = vfsp->vfc_typenum; mp->mnt_flag |= vfsp->vfc_flags & MNT_VISFLAGMASK; strncpy(mp->mnt_stat.f_fstypename, vfsp->vfc_name, MFSNAMELEN); - vp->v_mountedhere = mp; mp->mnt_vnodecovered = vp; mp->mnt_stat.f_owner = p->p_ucred->cr_uid; + VOP_UNLOCK(vp, 0, p); update: /* * Set the mount level flags. */ if (SCARG(uap, flags) & MNT_RDONLY) @@ -302,15 +307,20 @@ mp->mnt_syncer = NULL; } vfs_unbusy(mp, p); return (error); } + vn_lock(vp, LK_EXCLUSIVE | LK_RETRY, p); /* * Put the new filesystem on the mount list after root. */ cache_purge(vp); if (!error) { + simple_lock(&vp->v_interlock); + vp->v_flag &= ~VMOUNT; + vp->v_mountedhere = mp; + simple_unlock(&vp->v_interlock); simple_lock(&mountlist_slock); CIRCLEQ_INSERT_TAIL(&mountlist, mp, mnt_list); simple_unlock(&mountlist_slock); checkdirs(vp); VOP_UNLOCK(vp, 0, p); @@ -318,11 +328,13 @@ error = vfs_allocate_syncvnode(mp); vfs_unbusy(mp, p); if (error = VFS_START(mp, 0, p)) vrele(vp); } else { - mp->mnt_vnodecovered->v_mountedhere = (struct mount *)0; + simple_lock(&vp->v_interlock); + vp->v_flag &= ~VMOUNT; + simple_unlock(&vp->v_interlock); mp->mnt_vfc->vfc_refcount--; vfs_unbusy(mp, p); free((caddr_t)mp, M_MOUNT); vput(vp); } - Tor Egge To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 08:04:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18900 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18845 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806101504.IAA18845@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA184971068; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:04:28 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:04:27 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <18749.897489480@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 10, 98 07:38:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some mail from Jordan K. Hubbard, sie said: > > > Okay...I'm installing 2.2.6 right now and I'm at the "Package Selection" > > menu. Strange, I see no way to read the README.TXT file for any of these > > packages. No, I haven't yet completed the installation. Yes, I'm > > installing packages as part of the base install and there is no README to > > RTFR on :) {...] > If you're actually installing the CD, then you can flip over to the > Emergency Holographic Shell at the first sign of trouble and say > "Hmmm, I wonder if this behavior is documented anywhere", that > hopefully leading you to the /dist/README file also. :-) Yes, I'm actually installing the CD :-) It might be worth finding a line on a screen somewhere which mentions to do the above if you encounter problems. Hmmm, maybe the error message which mentions the package that could not be found should say this ? Some other pet peeves: - 4 versions of TCL and 4 versions of TK. This seems slightly excessive to me. - no progress meters for pkg_add, just a message that it is "running" - whilst byte counts are shown, there's no % Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 08:19:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22179 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (daemon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22143 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806101519.IAA22143@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA181309100; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:31:40 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:31:40 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <18322.897488254@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 10, 98 07:17:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In some mail from Jordan K. Hubbard, sie said: > > > > They're on the other CD. > > > > Then it should say so... > > It does. Each and every README.TXT, including the one with "missing" > packages or ports, notes its contents and whether or not some of those > contents are on another CD (and, if so, which). RTFR. :) Okay...I'm installing 2.2.6 right now and I'm at the "Package Selection" menu. Strange, I see no way to read the README.TXT file for any of these packages. No, I haven't yet completed the installation. Yes, I'm installing packages as part of the base install and there is no README to RTFR on :) Is there a hidden key stroke that I'm missing to do this with ? :) Something like "ctrl-alt-del,F3,root,mount /cdrom,cd /cdrom/packages/All, vi */README.TXT" perhaps ? :-) Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 08:32:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25130 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:32:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from geek.grf.ov.com (geek.grf.ov.com [192.251.86.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25009 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:32:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from pebbles (pebbles.cam.veritas.com [166.98.49.16]) by geek.grf.ov.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA04377 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806101537.LAA04377@geek.grf.ov.com> X-Sender: ksmm@mail.cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:29:10 -0400 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-Reply-To: <199806101504.IAA18845@hub.freebsd.org> References: <18749.897489480@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:04 AM 6/10/98 , Darren Reed wrote: >Some other pet peeves: >- 4 versions of TCL and 4 versions of TK. This seems slightly excessive > to me. I'm sure the Tcl/Tk version fanatics out there are in heaven. >- no progress meters for pkg_add, just a message that it is "running" >- whilst byte counts are shown, there's no % Let me handle this one, Jordan. I assume this ties back to the fact that it's difficult/impossible to determine a package's install size before installation. K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 09:12:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05553 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05421 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806101611.JAA05421@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA190845106; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:11:47 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: 3c589D & 2.2.6 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:11:46 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm having some interesting experiences with a 3C589D (apparently the latest in this family) card and 2.2.6. If I boot up Windows95 and attempt to use the card with that driver (it fails), the card does not probe correctly under FreeBSD 2.2.6 (the card is there, but the CIS search returns an empty string in card_info. Fixing this requires a cold boot. I've had a little play with if_zp.c, but have not managed to do anything conclusive. If anyone has ideas or patches, I'm willing to try them out. Darren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 09:29:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10269 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:29:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA10209 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:29:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yjnkW-0005oF-00; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:29:20 -0600 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA04002 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:29:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806101629.KAA04002@harmony.village.org> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PnP BIOS Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:29:17 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greetings, for a variety of reasons, I'd like to be able to call the PnP BIOS that is on my machine. I notice that the kernel currently searches for the $PnP magic cookie, but just prints it on boot. It doesn't even bother to save it away like the SMBIOStable and the DMItable. Has anybody done any work in this area realting to calling PnP BIOS functions from a running system? Reading the PnP MindShare book leads me to believe that this should be fairly simple and easy to do (barring implementation bugs in the BIOS) once you have the "weird" segmentation addressing issues taken care of which the MindShare books seems to imply that you need to do. (I don't have the book in front of me, so it might not be weird but just different...). I'm actually interested in this because I'd like to play with the SMBIOS that my machine has, but it implements 2.0 and not the newer 2.1 (which has the table bios.c is searching for, unlike 2.0). So to do that, I have to be able to call the PnP BIOS. From code inspection it appears that the only BIOS calls that are supported are the INT xx type calls. Is that correct, or have I overlooked something? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 09:42:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13845 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13713 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:42:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07424; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:41:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Snob Art Genre Reply-To: ben@rosengart.com To: Darren Reed cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-Reply-To: <199806101519.IAA22143@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Darren Reed wrote: > Okay...I'm installing 2.2.6 right now and I'm at the "Package Selection" > menu. Strange, I see no way to read the README.TXT file for any of these > packages. No, I haven't yet completed the installation. Yes, I'm > installing packages as part of the base install and there is no README to > RTFR on :) Why is package installation in the install anyway? It's just as easily done when the system is up. Same with a lot of the configuration stuff in the install, don't you think someone setting a system up as a router can do it by hand? It seems to me that the sysinstall mechanism should be for getting a system *installed*, and that configuration, being largely orthogonal, should be left to other mechanisms. "Do one thing and do it well." Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 10:36:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23737 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23607; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:36:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20321; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:36:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd020176; Wed Jun 10 10:35:58 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29235; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:35:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806101735.KAA29235@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new config To: me@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:35:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806101155.NAA06221@fourier.int.consol.de> from "Michael Elbel" at Jun 10, 98 01:55:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [ very interesting things deleted ] > > Hmm, how would you store static mappings with your model, like: > > I absolutely, always, want SCSI-Id 2 on controller 3 to be sd0 and keeping > my root fs, like you now specify in the config file? > > I could image something with Poul Henning's MFS-in-the-kernel approach, but > am a bit at a loss how you'd put static mappings that absolutely have to be > there before you even mount the root fs in a fully dynamic environment like > you describe. > > Or should there be a "module" devmap.o or something that always gets loaded? No. Device parameters for devices that require parameters to be set (which should be fewer and fewer of them, as time goes on) should be code associative with the drivers that act on them. In other words, you have an ELF section linked into the kernel, or you have an ELF section in a seperate autonomous ELF module. This code implements the driver. It also implements the data for the driver, including a set of standard data in a vectorable block (either by symbol, by attribute, or by magic number and checksum; whatever). An external program can edit that data. I see this as being primarily for support of ISA, and then only for drivers that are somehow broken, either because of hardware, or because they aren't smart enough. The hardware, you can't do anything about. The drivers, you can. For example, the other day, a collegue was attempting to install FreeBSD on a system with an NE2000 at a known address (the probe found it), but at an unknown interrupt. It was possible for FreeBSD to determine the interrupt, yet the driver wasn't smart enough. The determination could have occurred four ways: 1) There was a driver setup disk. It knew how to identify the card and determine the interrupt. The FreeBSD driver could have done this as well, but it simply didn't have the code for it. This would not have been a destructive probe; the chip had already been located. 2) The card was a PnP ISA card in a non-PnP motherboard. Using the PnP commands, the card could have been binary searched and identified using the PnP information. This would resolve a large number of legacy motherboard + PnP hardware issues, but it wasn't done. FreeBSD doesn't (yet) have an ISA bus driver as a seperate bus attachment. 3) The existance of the "garbage interrupt" could be worked around. On the first "ed1 tiemout", the driver *could* have attempted to reattach at another interrupt. Certainly, the interrupt could have been identified. The method would be as follows: a) Establish a default interrupt handler for all interrupts -- a *seperate* one. b) Enable all interrupts. c) When a "missing interrupt" failure occurs, note which default interrupt handler was called. d) "Allocate" one of the "free" interrupts with any "spurious" activity on it, and retry the operation. e) Repeat until the hardware works. f) Record the information in the kernel image. g) Note that this cleans up the interference of "garbage" interrupts with the LPT port on IRQ 7. 4) A user, using a configuration program (in this case, the "visual" userconfig in the kernel) could do the same thing as #3, after visually noting which hardware interrupts were not allocated by running the BIOS setup. Then, at one reboot per attempt, the card could be located. The fourth was the method used, since a setup disk was unavailable. You have to got to bad hardware that *must* be destructively probed, and whose destructive probe conflicts with *other* bad hardwares destructive probing, before you can justify a device configuration for device parameter's sake. But what about for kernel configurations sake? My personal opinion is that the device name should map precisely and *invariantly* to the controller/target/LUN. That is, that what you want to do is technically undesirable. Given the example of the root device you've given, there are several alternatives, which you probably aren't going to like. The first is that the boot blocks must have identified the correct partition. If the bootblocks can get this information, so can the kernel. At a minimum, the file /etc/fstab, as well as the file /kernel, can be read. They are both on the same filesystem. In addition, it should be possible for the kernel to use BIOS-based drivers. If it could, the boot blocks could give the same BIOS information they used to locate the root device to the kernel so that it could also locate it. Switching to protected mode drivers can be accomplished by MD5'ing enough of the disk to make a determination about the BIOS-to-protected-mode-driver mapping. This is what VFAT in Windows 95 does in order to keep the registry and TSR files open across the switchover. A fallback position is that the 0x80 bit will be set on the active partition, and that this should be only one partition per bootable disk, at most. This identifies the DOS partition sufficiently to find the booted device in most instances. For the cases where two disks are bootable using a boot manager, the boot manager should unset the 0x80 bit on all partitions except the partition being booted, so that this is unambigous. Failing this, there is my favorite fallback soloution: Seperate the "last mounted on" marking from the mounting, and don't mark in the case of by-hand mounts. What this means is that the root partition may be identified by seeing the "/" as the "last mounted on" location. You may disambiguate devices with the same "last mounted on" by their superblock timestamp. Clearly, for compile-time options that are logical mappings (rather than mappings that result from the application of logic 8-)), you will need to make modifications. One would hope that this was a *great* exception to the general rule, and that we could count on you to add #define's to code by hand to get your behaviour (3 of you, 9 million of us). I don't presume to be able to answer all the little "I'm doing something this way, how can I ignore progress and keep doing it this way" type questions. Some existing practice will, inevitably, be required to change. The best we can hope for is to keep the impacts from the changes to a minimum (ie: avoid __errno and /dev/wd0a->/dev/wds0a type changes when possible, and to cluster them to minimize the duration of the impact when not possible). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 10:48:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26961 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26885 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18195; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:48:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd018145; Wed Jun 10 10:48:15 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA29713; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:48:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: PnP BIOS To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:48:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806101629.KAA04002@harmony.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Jun 10, 98 10:29:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > for a variety of reasons, I'd like to be able to call the PnP > BIOS that is on my machine. I notice that the kernel currently > searches for the $PnP magic cookie, but just prints it on boot. It > doesn't even bother to save it away like the SMBIOStable and the > DMItable. Has anybody done any work in this area realting to calling > PnP BIOS functions from a running system? Reading the PnP MindShare > book leads me to believe that this should be fairly simple and easy to > do (barring implementation bugs in the BIOS) once you have the "weird" > segmentation addressing issues taken care of which the MindShare books > seems to imply that you need to do. (I don't have the book in front > of me, so it might not be weird but just different...). To solve the BIOS calling issue if you need non-INT-based BIOS calls, you should examine a different MindShare book: Protected Mode Software Architecture MindShare, Inc. PC System Architecture Series Tom Shanley ISBN: 0-201-55447-X Yes, *that* Tom Shanley. It discusses all of the issues necessary to implement a VMM (Virtual Machine Manager) for 386 emulation, including all the necessary data to implement using the VM86 bit for virtual interrupt processing. This is basically enough information that, were it implemented, you *should* be able to boot FreeBSD or Linux -- under FreeBSD. And because of the use of a VMM rather than processor emulation, as under BOCHS -- run nearly full speed. Think of it as "the perfect Linux emulation"... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 10:54:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28300 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:54:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA28185 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yjp46-0005qw-00; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:53:38 -0600 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA04485; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:53:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806101753.LAA04485@harmony.village.org> To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: PnP BIOS Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:48:09 -0000." <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> References: <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:53:36 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> Terry Lambert writes: : Yes, *that* Tom Shanley. OK. I'll bit. Which Tom Shanley is *THAT* Tom Shanley? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 10:55:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28590 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:55:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.gamespot.com (ns2.gamespot.com [206.169.18.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28551 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian@gamespot.com) Received: from localhost (ian@localhost) by mail.gamespot.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA07466 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:11:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Kallen Reply-To: Ian Kallen To: freebsd-sf@arachna.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-announce@FreeBSD.ORG, postings@listfoundation.org, sfpug@pootpoot.com Subject: (event 6/11) BAFUG June meeting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, June 11. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: Brian Behlendorf, Core Developer from the Apache Group, will be on hand to discuss (celebrate ;) the release of Apache 1.3. A number of changes were implemented in this release including dynamic shared objects, an autoconf style configuration interface, configuration file modularization and chock full o' other nuts. We won't talk about Apache's support for WindowsNT though, there's another user group in the area for NT, but the new capabilities and portability with Apache are pretty snazzy. Ian Kallen and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on June 13 at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. This effort is aimed at making easing the uninitiated into the joys of running a real server OS on their PC's :) Further details on this project will also be emerging soon, see http://www.freebsd-support.com/install.html Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 8:00ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Street. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge and get off at the 5th street exit. Take a left on to Harrison. Follow Harrison to 17th. Take a right on to 17th. From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left on to Vermont Ave. At 17th Street take a left on to 17th. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html http://www.reef.com/ Contact: Ian Kallen can be reached at ian@gamespot.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 10:57:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29103 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA28698 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yjp6I-0005r3-00; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:55:54 -0600 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA04506; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:55:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806101755.LAA04506@harmony.village.org> To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: PnP BIOS Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:48:09 -0000." <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> References: <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:55:52 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> Terry Lambert writes: : This is basically enough information that, were it implemented, you : *should* be able to boot FreeBSD or Linux -- under FreeBSD. Would this open the door to using WinNT/Win95 32 bit drivers in the FreeBSD kernel? Or is that too evil a thought to even consider... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 11:08:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02782 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:08:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pau-amma.whistle.com (s205m64.whistle.com [207.76.205.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02678 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:07:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw@whistle.com) Received: (from dhw@localhost) by pau-amma.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21481 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:06:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dhw) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:06:54 -0700 (PDT) From: David Wolfskill Message-Id: <199806101806.LAA21481@pau-amma.whistle.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new config Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From: Terry Lambert >Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:35:53 +0000 (GMT) [Elision accomplished with wild abandon.... dhw] >> Hmm, how would you store static mappings with your model, like: >> I absolutely, always, want SCSI-Id 2 on controller 3 to be sd0 and keeping >> my root fs, like you now specify in the config file? >The hardware, you can't do anything about. The drivers, you can. For >example, the other day, a collegue was attempting to install FreeBSD >on a system with an NE2000 at a known address (the probe found it), >but at an unknown interrupt. It was possible for FreeBSD to determine >the interrupt, yet the driver wasn't smart enough. The determination >could have occurred four ways: >4) A user, using a configuration program (in this case, the > "visual" userconfig in the kernel) could do the same thing as > #3, after visually noting which hardware interrupts were not > allocated by running the BIOS setup. Then, at one reboot per > attempt, the card could be located. >The fourth was the method used, since a setup disk was unavailable. Yup. I remember, since I had a part in that (namely, implementing the role of "a user").... :-} >You have to got to bad hardware that *must* be destructively probed, >and whose destructive probe conflicts with *other* bad hardwares >destructive probing, before you can justify a device configuration >for device parameter's sake. And please note that it is NOT the case that the person (me, in this case) necessarily has any documentation for (or, in many cases, familiarity with) the hardware in question. >But what about for kernel configurations sake? >My personal opinion is that the device name should map precisely >and *invariantly* to the controller/target/LUN. That is, that >what you want to do is technically undesirable. Well... here, I'm less certain that saying that what the person who is using the machine wants to do "is technically undesirable" -- I recall supporting folks using software that has some bizarre tie-in to a specific (set of) device name(s). Now, granted, I think it's stupid to "design" software like that -- but not everyone has the luxury of always using software for which the source is available (and readily mungable). Given that, might it be worth considering "an additional level of indirection"? One possibility, for example, is to symlink a device name to a controller/target/LUN/slice, for example. Yes, this is similar to SysV; no, I'm not convinced that it's desirable to go quite as far as the SysV folks did. I just don't see much to be gained by contracting a rabid case of NIH. Of course, that doesn't address (sorry; no pun intended) the issue of how in the world the user who wants this should actually specify it. :-( david -- David Wolfskill UNIX System Administrator dhw@whistle.com voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (650) 371-4621 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 12:20:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19357 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18974; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:17:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA23788; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:05:13 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ Chris/Ross - I CC'd you so that are aware of it, and so that you can watch out for it in the future... Also, Chris... who's the right person at CMU to notify about this? ] So, I decided to take a look at the FreeBSD/alpha code that got checked in today. Nice to see that the CMU copyright was left out of locore.s, even though e.g. the following pieces were lifted basically verbatim from the NetBSD/alpha locore.s: - the SWITCH_CONTEXT macro - the kernel startup (locorestart) - the signal trampoline - the fpstate code Gee, pretty much the whole file! Amazing that Doug wrote that from scratch! Even the comments are the same! Uncanny! Also, looking at machdep.c: - alpha_dsr_sysname() [Where did you get your documentation on the DSR? Amazing that it looks _just like_ the code that I wrote for NetBSD/alpha...] - alpha_variation_name() - alpha_unknown_sysname() - identifycpu() - alpha_init() [a few tweaks here, but not many...] - setregs() [again, only a few tweaks here] - alpha_pa_access() This file is missing _BOTH_ the CMU and NetBSD Foundation, Inc. copyright notices. And vm_machdep.c: - cpu_fork() This file is missing the CMU copyright notice. *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 12:22:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20059 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19644; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cgd@pa.dec.com) Received: from dnaunix.pa.dec.com (dnaunix.pa.dec.com [16.4.208.21]) by mail1.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0e) with SMTP id MAA00959; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by dnaunix.pa.dec.com; id AA08720; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:19:27 -0700 To: Jason Thorpe Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "Chris G. Demetriou" Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 98 12:05:13 PDT." <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 12:19:26 -0700 Message-Id: <4228.897506366@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [ Chris/Ross - I CC'd you so that are aware of it, and so that you can > watch out for it in the future... Also, Chris... who's the right > person at CMU to notify about this? ] The standard CMU copyright should indicate a good place, If I recall. cgd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 12:29:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21782 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:29:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21361 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id MAA15576; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma015574; Wed Jun 10 12:26:56 1998 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id MAA05119; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:26:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199806101926.MAA05119@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? In-Reply-To: <199806101537.LAA04377@geek.grf.ov.com> from The Classiest Man Alive at "Jun 10, 98 11:29:10 am" To: ksmm@threespace.com (The Classiest Man Alive) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Classiest Man Alive writes: > >- no progress meters for pkg_add, just a message that it is "running" > >- whilst byte counts are shown, there's no % > > Let me handle this one, Jordan. I assume this ties back to the fact that > it's difficult/impossible to determine a package's install size before > installation. Possibly stupid question: why not estimate it with: gzip --list tarball.tgz | tail -1 | awk '{ print $2 }' ? Better yet, there should be a way to do this directly using libz. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 12:39:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23531 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:39:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23269; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09429; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806101937.OAA09429@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 12:05:13 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason Thorpe said: > > *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained > within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. On the other hand, I have to give Chuck Cranor applause for the approach of trying to be complete in credits (even including me, when it seems that it wasn't due to me at all :-)). I actually feel bad about his mentioning me, not because of association, but due to me not feeling like I deserved it. So we all make mistakes, even with the common and thinly disguised shared VMspace stuff. I truly don't care about crdit, but do care more about intentions than legal fine-points. FreeBSD-alpha will definitely be a screamer though!!! :-). Since FreeBSD is very server optimized anyway, the Alpha is a very advantageous platform for us to support. There is NOTHING wrong with giving credit where credit is due, and absolutely NO minuses. I am one of the stronger proponents of proper credit, and will help participate in a solution of the problem (whichever way it goes.) Even if something is sourced from older technology, doesn't mean that it has the same limitations!!! -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 12:57:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27905 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27572 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23816 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id MAA08334 for hackers@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:30:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806101930.MAA08334@tao.thought.org> Subject: internationalization To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG People, Is anyone else working on the internationalization of the standard utility set? GNU is far ahead of FreeBSD in most of it's code and I'm not refering to GPL'd code. Only things like most of what we have in bin, usr.bin, &c. I've been into this twice. The first time, briefly, in '96, and for the past few weeks. Generating simple, efficient catalogues for each of the 200+ utilities is a first task. There is a related issue of the system errs (currently in sys_errlist[]). There are at least two rational ways to turn:: $ ENOENT 2 No such file or directory into its French equiv:: $ ENOENT 2 Fichier ou r\xe9pertoire introuvable I'm going ahead with my current implementation and look forward to hearing from any other hackers who are interested in this. gary -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 13:02:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29418 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:02:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from IAEhv.nl (root@iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29222 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:01:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjw@surf.IAEhv.nl) Received: from surf.IAEhv.nl (root@surf.IAEhv.nl [194.151.66.2]) by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00350 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:01:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from wjw@localhost) by surf.IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03724 for hackers@freeBSD.org; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:01:42 +0200 (MET DST) From: Willem Jan Withagen Message-Id: <199806102001.WAA03724@surf.IAEhv.nl> Subject: debugging memory allocation in -stable To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:01:41 +0200 (MET DST) Reply-To: wjw@IAEhv.nl X-NCC-RegID: nl.iae X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Working on some stuff with variant links, crashed became my life. But I have some code partially working. Only a few symbolic links later, I get a crash due to having already free'ed some buffer. I'm pretty shure I have to release this buffer in my code, but know I'd like to know where this buffer was malloced in the first place. How do I figure this out? Once I enhanced a malloc package with tracing and tracking, and I must say that vmstat -m does reveil losts of nice info. But one feature I now mis: the string holding the filename/number where the allocation took place. --WjW -- Internet Access Eindhoven BV., voice: +31-40-2 393 393, data: +31-40-2 606 606 P.O. 928, 5600 AX Eindhoven, The Netherlands Full Internet connectivity for only fl 12.95 a month. Call now, and login as 'new'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 13:10:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01763 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:10:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nlsystems.com (nlsys.demon.co.uk [158.152.125.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01146; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dfr@nlsystems.com) Received: from herring.nlsystems.com (herring.nlsystems.com [10.0.0.2]) by nlsystems.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14670; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:09:50 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:09:49 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: "John S. Dyson" cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806101937.OAA09429@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > Jason Thorpe said: > > > > *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained > > within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... > > > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. This was an honest mistake Jason. I started both files from scratch at a time when I wasn't sure I could use any code from NetBSD/alpha. The NetBSD code came in during an 8 hour hacking session when I was getting the kernel to link and the copyrights got missed. Thanks for pointing it out so politely. I have added the relavent copyright to each of these files. If you see any other problems, be sure and let me know. A simple note by private email will suffice. > FreeBSD-alpha will definitely be a screamer though!!! :-). Since > FreeBSD is very server optimized anyway, the Alpha is a very > advantageous platform for us to support. There is NOTHING wrong > with giving credit where credit is due, and absolutely NO minuses. I have no idea what the performance will be since I haven't actually done much with it. I expect it to perform fairly well after tuning though. -- Doug Rabson Mail: dfr@nlsystems.com Nonlinear Systems Ltd. Phone: +44 181 951 1891 Fax: +44 181 381 1039 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 13:21:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04422 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03750; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA24467; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:06:19 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) "John S. Dyson" wrote: > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. This is a MUCH more serious issue than "due credit in a commit message". I seem to recall noting that the vmspace sharing code was somewhat based on FreeBSD's (although it is a little different, and the data structure were more-or-less ready for it, and the implementation _is_ obvious) when I committed it to the NetBSD source tree... but _I DID NOT INFRINGE ON ANYONE'S COPYRIGHT_... that is the issue. John: So nice of you to reply in your typical "we love everyone" warm-fuzzy manner, rather than addressing the SERIOUS ISSUE of a FreeBSD developer REMOVING copyright notices from code, copied _verbatim_ (right down to the comments), REPLACING IT WITH HIS OWN. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 13:50:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11739 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11247; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:48:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09808; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806102048.PAA09808@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 01:06:19 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason Thorpe said: > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. > > This is a MUCH more serious issue than "due credit in a commit message". > I seem to recall noting that the vmspace sharing code was somewhat based on > FreeBSD's (although it is a little different, and the data structure were > more-or-less ready for it, and the implementation _is_ obvious) when I > committed it to the NetBSD source tree... but _I DID NOT INFRINGE ON > ANYONE'S COPYRIGHT_... that is the issue. > > John: So nice of you to reply in your typical "we love everyone" warm-fuzzy > manner, rather than addressing the SERIOUS ISSUE of a FreeBSD developer > REMOVING copyright notices from code, copied _verbatim_ (right down to > the comments), REPLACING IT WITH HIS OWN. > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other than on purely legal necessity. *sigh* so much for being kind and helpful to your co-developers of your software. :-(. This lack of kindness and respect for people and their inventiveness is why we need to play games dealing with legal issues. I guess we need the law to protect us from mistakes, and people who have no respect for others inventiveness. We need the law to protect both from mistakes (like the recent commits), and intentions. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 13:55:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13262 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13158 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:55:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01191; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:55:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd001146; Wed Jun 10 13:54:55 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11155; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102054.NAA11155@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: PnP BIOS To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:54:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806101753.LAA04485@harmony.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Jun 10, 98 11:53:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <199806101748.KAA29713@usr01.primenet.com> Terry Lambert writes: > : Yes, *that* Tom Shanley. > > OK. I'll bit. Which Tom Shanley is *THAT* Tom Shanley? The well known hardware nut (said affectionately). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 13:57:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13693 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13653 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:57:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15439; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:56:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd015415; Wed Jun 10 13:56:47 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA11167; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:56:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102056.NAA11167@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: PnP BIOS To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:56:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806101755.LAA04506@harmony.village.org> from "Warner Losh" at Jun 10, 98 11:55:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : This is basically enough information that, were it implemented, you > : *should* be able to boot FreeBSD or Linux -- under FreeBSD. > > Would this open the door to using WinNT/Win95 32 bit drivers in the > FreeBSD kernel? Or is that too evil a thought to even consider... It's part of it. The other parts of it are emulating the VxD's expected environment, including use of ELF, honoring section attribution, formalizing virtual interrupts for top/bottom processing (mostly there), and supporting kernel paging. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:03:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15440 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14870 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:01:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15845; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:01:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd015824; Wed Jun 10 14:01:27 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11432; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:01:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102101.OAA11432@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new config To: dhw@whistle.com (David Wolfskill) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:01:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806101806.LAA21481@pau-amma.whistle.com> from "David Wolfskill" at Jun 10, 98 11:06:54 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >My personal opinion is that the device name should map precisely > >and *invariantly* to the controller/target/LUN. That is, that > >what you want to do is technically undesirable. > > Well... here, I'm less certain that saying that what the person who is > using the machine wants to do "is technically undesirable" -- I recall > supporting folks using software that has some bizarre tie-in to a > specific (set of) device name(s). > > Now, granted, I think it's stupid to "design" software like that -- but > not everyone has the luxury of always using software for which the > source is available (and readily mungable). > > Given that, might it be worth considering "an additional level of > indirection"? One possibility, for example, is to symlink a device name > to a controller/target/LUN/slice, for example. Yes, this is similar to > SysV; no, I'm not convinced that it's desirable to go quite as far as > the SysV folks did. I just don't see much to be gained by contracting a > rabid case of NIH. You can get this by renaming and hard-linking in the /dev directory to modify the existing devfs image presented to the user. Basically, you use rc.local (or rc.devfs, if you think a period is a better subdirectory delimiter than a slash, and are dead-set against rc.d because of anti-SysV sentiment). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:09:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17538 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16875; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA24707; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:53 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) "John S. Dyson" wrote: > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > than on purely legal necessity. ...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available via the exported RCS information. Y'know, I wouldn't be so upset about this, except for the fact that this is not the first time that something like this has happened. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:16:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19823 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19169; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09812; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:13:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806102113.PAA09812@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:53 PDT." <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:09:07 -0600 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head >revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available >via the exported RCS information. And you still have legal recourse to defend your claim to that code regardless of whether the copyright is there or not. Your legal rights are the same regardless of whether the user pulls the revision out of CVS that lacks your copyright or they delete the copyrights manually. >Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov >NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 >NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 >Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:23:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21931 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:23:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21010; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:20:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25613; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:19:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025502; Wed Jun 10 14:19:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12095; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:19:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102119.OAA12095@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:19:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Jun 10, 98 12:05:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [ Chris/Ross - I CC'd you so that are aware of it, and so that you can > watch out for it in the future... Also, Chris... who's the right > person at CMU to notify about this? ] > > So, I decided to take a look at the FreeBSD/alpha code that got checked > in today. > > Nice to see that the CMU copyright was left out of locore.s, even though > e.g. the following pieces were lifted basically verbatim from the NetBSD/alpha > locore.s: [ ... ] I don't think this was intentional "theft of work"; I think you just got an intermediate tree; clearly FreeBSD doesn't yet run on Alpha enough for it to be an issue. Yet. It will *definitely* be an issue later, however. Did you contact Doug directly? Also: isn't there precedent for removal of per-file copyright notices in favor of agregate notices? It may be that at least the CMU code is already covered under one of the blanket statements. I know that some of my code was "blanketed" in the same way by other BSD's (and even in VXWorks, from one vendor). I know that I was personally *real* offended by /bin/true and /bin/false have a zillion lines of copyright in them for a near-noop... though not as offended as when they were converted to binaries for stupid "copyright and intellectual protperty" claims. Certainly, credit that is not covered in a blanket statement should be given on individual files. Part of the problem may be that FreeBSD has a larger exposure of the internals of the source code control; is it more correct to commit the blanket copyright statement before the code, or vice versa? At what point is it required that the blanket statement be checked in... at the instant the other file is checked in? That's impossible. I think the answer is "as soon as is reasonable and prudent". That said, the exposed internals of the FreeBSD source control could certainly cause the commits to be construed as publication; therefore the blanket and/or file statements might have a requirement of being in sooner rather than later, when the code is actually usable on an Alpha system not running Linux. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:36:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25498 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24779; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:33:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10047; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:33:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806102133.QAA10047@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 01:54:53 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:33:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason Thorpe said: > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > > than on purely legal necessity. > > ...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head > revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available > via the exported RCS information. > > Y'know, I wouldn't be so upset about this, except for the fact that this > is not the first time that something like this has happened. > Ditto, and private communications are less damaging to both the messenger and the receiver of the message. My intentions about credit (personally) are true, and sometimes find that peoples public stance and actual behavior are inconsistent. I believe that people should be polite regarding credit, and as a side effect will strive to be complete and accurate legally. I think that following only the letter of the law can still be very impolite. All this said, I would be very surprised if the code stagnates as it is, and it is not likely that it will stay technologically the way it is for long. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:45:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27403 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:45:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26832; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22746; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd022658; Wed Jun 10 14:41:57 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13184; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:41:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102141.OAA13184@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:41:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from "Jason Thorpe" at Jun 10, 98 01:54:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > > than on purely legal necessity. > > ...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head > revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available > via the exported RCS information. But only via extraction from a file that has the information in it; I think the copyright notice on the RCS file covers the derivatives of that file. It's not like you can "cvs co" without having the full file available to you. I could make the same argument about the copyrights on my LKM code, which are not visible when I install NetBSD from a disk image, as when I installed my HP340 box. They would be just as invalid, given the blanketting and file level associativity of copyright statements. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:45:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27460 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27298; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA13468; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102142.OAA13468@implode.root.com> To: Terry Lambert cc: me@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new config In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:35:53 -0000." <199806101735.KAA29235@usr01.primenet.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:42:45 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >1) There was a driver setup disk. It knew how to identify the > card and determine the interrupt. The FreeBSD driver could > have done this as well, but it simply didn't have the code > for it. This would not have been a destructive probe; the > chip had already been located. In most cases, the software interface specification for how to do this is unavailable. I do actually have some info for WD/SMC cards, which is why I added support for "?" for the interrupt, in which case the kernel reads it from the EEPROM. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 14:57:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29502 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29369 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25600; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:55:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd025533; Wed Jun 10 14:55:47 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13862; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:55:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102155.OAA13862@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: kline@tao.thought.org (Gary Kline) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:55:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806101930.MAA08334@tao.thought.org> from "Gary Kline" at Jun 10, 98 12:30:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I've been into this twice. The first time, briefly, in '96, and > for the past few weeks. Generating simple, efficient catalogues > for each of the 200+ utilities is a first task. > > There is a related issue of the system errs (currently in sys_errlist[]). > There are at least two rational ways to turn:: > > $ ENOENT > 2 No such file or directory > > into its French equiv:: > > $ ENOENT > 2 Fichier ou r\xe9pertoire introuvable > > I'm going ahead with my current implementation and look forward to > hearing from any other hackers who are interested in this. I'm interested. Part of the problem here is that FreeBSD doesn't fully support XPG/4. Another part of the problem is that XPG/4 is encoded multibyte, which is bad from a number of major perspectives, starting with ISO2022. I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support all known human languages. I would suggest an initial 16 bit wchar_t with an assumption of a zero valued code page designator. If ISO ever gets around to adding other code pages, we can deal with that at that time using page selection. Meanwhile, we'll be able to interportate with Microsoft and JAVA, which use 16 bit wchar_t encodings. I think the first (and hardest) step is the shells. The shells need to be internationalized based on the fact that they (can) intrpret exit codes to the user as error messages. The last time I converted csh, this was absolute hell because the code was badly organized for internationalization. The next hardest step is the editors, starting with "vi". They have to be able to support Unicode. I have had FS-based Unicode support working for a very long time, though it has failed to be committed. One big issue is that directory entry blocks must grow from 512b to 1k. This has a number of implications to the soft updates work currently in progress. This is because, in order to support a maximally sized path component, 512 + 24 bytes is needed for unicaode, as opposed to 256 + 24 (which fits in 512b) for an 8 bit charaacter set. If we were to do something stupid, like UTF-7 or UTF-8, it would have to grow to 5 * 256 + 24, minimally, to support 5:1 character expansion possible, as opposed to the 2:1 of flat Unicode encoding. For character set attributed FS's (like NFS v2/v3 will have to be), you can do the translation in in the kernel on the blocks on their way out (a 2:1 expnasion in memory of a 1:1 disk image for a given ISO character set attribution for the filesystem). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 15:05:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01908 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01837 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16131; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:04:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd016096; Wed Jun 10 15:04:27 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14301; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:04:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102204.PAA14301@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: debugging memory allocation in -stable To: wjw@IAEhv.nl Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:04:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806102001.WAA03724@surf.IAEhv.nl> from "Willem Jan Withagen" at Jun 10, 98 10:01:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Working on some stuff with variant links, crashed became my life. But I > have some code partially working. Only a few symbolic links later, I get a > crash due to having already free'ed some buffer. > > I'm pretty shure I have to release this buffer in my code, but know I'd like > to know where this buffer was malloced in the first place. > How do I figure this out? I have not had a chance yet to look at your code. I *will* look at the code in the near future. From a cursory examination, I have: I think you are not treating symbol expansion as being exactly the same as link expansion. See the "Check for symbolic link" case in namei() in vfs_lookup.c. It is exactly analogous to the "readlink" case. In most cases, an inline expansion is possible. This is my opinion from the code integration location. IMO, you should be wedging the "$" into the cn_hash calaculation, which has to do the traversal anyway (making it two compares -- nearly free). You may want to look at the HASBUF/SAVESTART flags while you are there; after a manipulation, these should probably be reset on the allocated version, and tested for the FREE. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 15:07:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02423 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:07:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01820; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:04:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13537; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> To: Jason Thorpe cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:54:53 PDT." <199806102054.NAA24707@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:02:38 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:48:10 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > Again, it is an issue of an error (which Doug is trying to correct right > > away, as soon as being notified), vs. an attitude which you are > > showing clearly that you care little about giving credit other > > than on purely legal necessity. > >...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head >revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available >via the exported RCS information. > >Y'know, I wouldn't be so upset about this, except for the fact that this >is not the first time that something like this has happened. If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. Regarding this specific instance, we've been working with Doug for years now and I know him to be an honest person. Given the evolution of the files involved - being built up from various pieces and not starting whole, I'm not too surprised that some copyrights were missed. I assume that Doug will take care of this immediately. If he doesn't then we'll take appropriate action. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 15:07:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02457 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:07:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02307; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09484; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:06:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd009451; Wed Jun 10 15:06:39 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14360; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:06:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806102206.PAA14360@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: new config To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:06:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, me@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806102142.OAA13468@implode.root.com> from "David Greenman" at Jun 10, 98 02:42:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >1) There was a driver setup disk. It knew how to identify the > > card and determine the interrupt. The FreeBSD driver could > > have done this as well, but it simply didn't have the code > > for it. This would not have been a destructive probe; the > > chip had already been located. > > In most cases, the software interface specification for how to do this > is unavailable. I do actually have some info for WD/SMC cards, which is > why I added support for "?" for the interrupt, in which case the kernel > reads it from the EEPROM. Do you have a German contact with a copy of "Sourcer" from V Communications, Inc., to whom you could send the setup disk? This type of thing can get documented in minutes... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 15:36:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09181 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (lunacity.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.118.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08529; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mycroft@lunacity.ne.mediaone.net) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA20156; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:35:14 -0400 (EDT) To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: Jason Thorpe , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102113.PAA09812@pluto.plutotech.com> From: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:35:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Justin T. Gibbs"'s message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:09:07 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Justin T. Gibbs" writes: > >...an error made worse by the fact that, regardless of what the head > >revision of the file has, revisions LACKING the notice are still available > >via the exported RCS information. > > And you still have legal recourse to defend your claim to that code > regardless of whether the copyright is there or not. Your legal rights are > the same regardless of whether the user pulls the revision out of CVS that > lacks your copyright or they delete the copyrights manually. And you still are distributing a version that violates the license (c.f. `must retain the above copyright notice, ...'). And we are still informing you that you are doing so, which seems substantially more courteous than immediately talking to a lawyer about it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 15:44:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10822 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (lunacity.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.118.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10261; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:41:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mycroft@lunacity.ne.mediaone.net) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA20162; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:42:14 -0400 (EDT) To: dg@root.com Cc: Jason Thorpe , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> From: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: 10 Jun 1998 18:42:13 -0400 In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:02:38 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman writes: > If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has > happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, > then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware > of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 15:51:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12375 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:51:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au [203.17.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12342 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au) Received: from mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au ("port 2079"@[139.188.23.1]) by gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-7 #U2695) with ESMTP id <01IY3RL64ZKG003198@gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:50:25 +1000 Received: from gsms01.alcatel.com.au by cim.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-10 #U2695) with ESMTP id <01IY3RKF6Q68I3TUKY@cim.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:49:49 +1000 Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by gsms01.alcatel.com.au (8.8.8/8.7.3) id IAA23365 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:50:20 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:50:20 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <199806102250.IAA23365@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would like to do a make world using gcc-2.8.1, tweaked for my system (ie Pentium-II), rather than the modified gcc-2.7.2.1 included in 2.2.6-R. My preferred option is to change /usr/src/contrib/gcc to be gcc-2.8.1 (with the relevant FreeBSD native patches added from the old gcc) and modify /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/cc to compile it. I'm having problems trying to get the correct rules for building things like c-parse.o (where the object is wanted for cc1, but the source file was built from c-parse.in by cc_tools. A fallback procedure is to drop cc from the lib-tools list and /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/Makefile, relying on the version installed in /usr/local/bin instead. (This also needs a few other tweaks to make sure the system cc isn't used anywhere - particularly by mkdep). Has anyone else attempted this? Does anyone have any useful hints? Peter -- Peter Jeremy (VK2PJ) peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Alcatel Australia Limited 41 Mandible St Phone: +61 2 9690 5019 ALEXANDRIA NSW 2015 Fax: +61 2 9690 5247 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 15:55:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13022 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adam.adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12710; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:53:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leec@adonai.net) Received: from adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by adam.adonai.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17011; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:53:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <357F0E6D.2197C24E@adonai.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:53:33 -0500 From: Lee Crites Organization: Adonai Services X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gentlemen (I *assume* that term can apply); You have your list to carry out your argument. Please don't bother the -hackers email list with it. Actually, the fact that this is being carried on in the -hackers list instead of just the -alpha list (where it belongs) calls into question the intent of the original message as it is... Lee To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 16:00:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14139 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from IAEhv.nl (root@iaehv.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14094 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjw@surf.IAEhv.nl) Received: from surf.IAEhv.nl (root@surf.IAEhv.nl [194.151.66.2]) by IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13622; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:00:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from wjw@localhost) by surf.IAEhv.nl (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA23346; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:00:14 +0200 (MET DST) From: Willem Jan Withagen Message-Id: <199806102300.BAA23346@surf.IAEhv.nl> Subject: Re: debugging memory allocation in -stable In-Reply-To: <199806102204.PAA14301@usr01.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jun 10, 98 10:04:24 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:00:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: wjw@IAEhv.nl, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: wjw@IAEhv.nl X-NCC-RegID: nl.iae X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You ( Terry Lambert ) write: => > Working on some stuff with variant links, crashed became my life. But I => > have some code partially working. Only a few symbolic links later, I get a => > crash due to having already free'ed some buffer. => > => > I'm pretty shure I have to release this buffer in my code, but know I'd like => > to know where this buffer was malloced in the first place. => > How do I figure this out? => => I have not had a chance yet to look at your code. I *will* look at the => code in the near future. From a cursory examination, I have: I didn't want to sound impatient. :-} I'm just eager to get on..... But you'll have to be a little patient with me whilest I'm trying to parse all these data structures with their implicit pre and post conditions. => I think you are not treating symbol expansion as being exactly the same => as link expansion. See the "Check for symbolic link" case in namei() in => vfs_lookup.c. It is exactly analogous to the "readlink" case. In most => cases, an inline expansion is possible. You mean writing the code "inline", or expand the variant-symbol in the buffer? I'm finding a lot of extraneus field which need to be adjusted as well, so incline code seems to be easier. But it's not a clean to read. => This is my opinion from the code integration location. IMO, you should => be wedging the "$" into the cn_hash calaculation, which has to do the => traversal anyway (making it two compares -- nearly free). This one I don't parse at all, but probably will, once you've got full comments on my first attempt. As far as I see: cn_hash would help speedup the process, omitting it for now would not be wrong? => You may want to look at the HASBUF/SAVESTART flags while you are there; => after a manipulation, these should probably be reset on the allocated => version, and tested for the FREE. I'll be looking into that as well. Still my initial question holds: How can I "easily" debug MALLOC/FREE problems in the kernel. --WjW -- Internet Access Eindhoven BV., voice: +31-40-2 393 393, data: +31-40-2 606 606 P.O. 928, 5600 AX Eindhoven, The Netherlands Full Internet connectivity for only fl 12.95 a month. Call now, and login as 'new'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 16:01:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14280 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:01:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero.simon-shapiro.org.142.69.207.in-addr.arpa [207.69.142.25] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14081 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 28757 invoked by uid 1000); 11 Jun 1998 00:02:44 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Jason Thorpe Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Cc: core@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, cgd@netbsd.org, core@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 10-Jun-98 Jason Thorpe wrote: > On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:37:09 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > *smirk* I would appreciate credit for my shared VM space work in > > NetBSD also. Of course, the similarities in the code could be > > co-incedental, but it seems very unlikely. > > This is a MUCH more serious issue than "due credit in a commit message". > I seem to recall noting that the vmspace sharing code was somewhat based > on > FreeBSD's (although it is a little different, and the data structure were > more-or-less ready for it, and the implementation _is_ obvious) when I > committed it to the NetBSD source tree... but _I DID NOT INFRINGE ON > ANYONE'S COPYRIGHT_... that is the issue. > > John: So nice of you to reply in your typical "we love everyone" > warm-fuzzy > manner, rather than addressing the SERIOUS ISSUE of a FreeBSD developer > REMOVING copyright notices from code, copied _verbatim_ (right down to > the comments), REPLACING IT WITH HIS OWN. Hi Jason, I really do not know you. Just as much as I do not know most of the others, except for association by e-mail. I sent you a private note, proposing some cooperation between us on issues that will matter and benefit us both. Since I did not receive any reply, I was concerned maybe your e-mail was not working properly. I am glad to see that it does. Now that we have ``proof'' (albeit not legal proof) that your email does work, would you kindly relate to us your opinion of cooperating. I think I know your opinion on code sharing by now :-) Simon BTW, What is wrong with viewing the world with ``we love everyone'' attitude? I, for one love almost everyone. including you :-) Simon --- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG 770.265.7340 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 16:21:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18152 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:21:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18114; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA25810; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102309.QAA25810@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:09:00 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [ I trimmed the CC a bit... ] On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Simon Shapiro wrote: > I sent you a private note, proposing some cooperation between us on issues > that will matter and benefit us both. Yes, I got your message... and I even thought I replied with "Aie, I'm buried with work right now, and I'll get back to you." It is entirely possible that my reply didn't actually get sent (sigh, that happens when I am swamped, as has been the case for the last couple of months...) Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 16:25:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18565 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fep2.mail.ozemail.net (fep2.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18515 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:25:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.shevland@horizonti.com) Received: from horizonti.com ([203.33.128.245]) by fep2.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id JAA09463 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:24:59 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <357F158B.DD4B5027@horizonti.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:23:55 +1000 From: Joe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Apache & SSL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I've just installed the SSL patches for apache 1.2.5, as well as the SSLeay code. All compilation etc. went fine, however I believe I have a problem with the httpd.conf file (I must say the documentation for the SSL patch wasn't all that clear about what to do with the config files and srm.conf etc). I want to listen on port 80 as an unsecure, normal http service. On port 443 I want my SSL enabled http servicer. However, when I attempt to connect to port 80 (actually just using localhost at the moment) I get a 'Netscape error: document returned no data' dialog (Netscape 4.04). I can use 'https://localhost' and all works fine (brings up the certificate dialog blah blah), however I cannot use 'http://localhost:443'. Is this a VirtualHost problem? Cheers. -- Joe Shevland Horizon Technologies International To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 16:39:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20951 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20911 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00784; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102233.PAA00784@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Warner Losh cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PnP BIOS In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:29:17 MDT." <199806101629.KAA04002@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:33:39 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hmm, starting from the top... > Greetings, > for a variety of reasons, I'd like to be able to call the PnP > BIOS that is on my machine. I notice that the kernel currently > searches for the $PnP magic cookie, but just prints it on boot. It > doesn't even bother to save it away like the SMBIOStable and the > DMItable. Has anybody done any work in this area realting to calling > PnP BIOS functions from a running system? The $PnP cookie isn't actually very useful by itself. > Reading the PnP MindShare > book leads me to believe that this should be fairly simple and easy to > do (barring implementation bugs in the BIOS) once you have the "weird" > segmentation addressing issues taken care of which the MindShare books > seems to imply that you need to do. (I don't have the book in front > of me, so it might not be weird but just different...). Jonathan's 16-bit protected-mode call stuff actually handles the PnP BIOS quite well - I have some pretty trivial code here that I have been using for a while now that uses it. > I'm actually interested in this because I'd like to play with the > SMBIOS that my machine has, but it implements 2.0 and not the newer > 2.1 (which has the table bios.c is searching for, unlike 2.0). So to > do that, I have to be able to call the PnP BIOS. From code inspection > it appears that the only BIOS calls that are supported are the INT xx > type calls. Is that correct, or have I overlooked something? The 16-bit protected mode interface is the preferred call method these days. Just of curiosity, what information do you want that's not available from the table structure? Most systems that implement SMB/DMI 2.0 also have the table-based interface (because this is what they want to use with NT). You can do all the table-based stuff with /dev/mem, obviously enough. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 16:43:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21665 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21630 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:42:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806102342.QAA21630@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA234752158; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:42:38 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: further on missing packages... To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:42:37 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As a case example, a dependency is there somewhere for rzsz-3.48. There is no rzsz on CD's #1 or #4, #2 is live filesystem, #3 has some patches but there is no installable package (nothing to run pkg_add on). That something else depends on it seems somewhat broken to me if there is no complete package provided. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 16:53:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23570 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23560 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:52:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00872; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806102247.PAA00872@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Darren Reed cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: further on missing packages... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:42:37 +1000." <199806102342.QAA21630@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:47:47 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > As a case example, a dependency is there somewhere for rzsz-3.48. > > There is no rzsz on CD's #1 or #4, #2 is live filesystem, #3 has some > patches but there is no installable package (nothing to run pkg_add on). > > That something else depends on it seems somewhat broken to me if there > is no complete package provided. rzsz can't be included (for legal reasons). However the packages which depend on it have "soft" dependancies (they can still be used, with perhaps reduced functionality) on it. The general philosophy is to depend on as much as possible, rather than as little as possible, in order to maximise the flexibility and functionality of the ports. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 17:09:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27203 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:09:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flarn.dyn.ml.org (mph@usr123.third-wave.com [147.72.122.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27104 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:09:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@flarn.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from mph@localhost) by flarn.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29356; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:08:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980610200848.A29298@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:08:48 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: Darren Reed , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: further on missing packages... References: <199806102342.QAA21630@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806102342.QAA21630@hub.freebsd.org>; from Darren Reed on Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:42:37AM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:42:37AM +1000, Darren Reed wrote: > As a case example, a dependency is there somewhere for rzsz-3.48. I suppose so. If something needs rzsz, then there will be a dependency for it. > There is no rzsz on CD's #1 or #4, #2 is live filesystem, #3 has some > patches but there is no installable package (nothing to run pkg_add on). Right. The license for that software prohibits redistribution. Read /usr/ports/LEGAL or /usr/ports/comms/rzsz/Makefile. > That something else depends on it seems somewhat broken to me if there > is no complete package provided. No, nothing is broken. There's not much we can do about another package needing it, and it's not our fault that the license prohibits a package being put on the CD. -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 17:16:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28534 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28258; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10898; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:14:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110014.TAA10898@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Charles M. Hannum" at "Jun 10, 98 06:42:13 pm" To: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:14:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Charles M. Hannum said: > > David Greenman writes: > > > If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has > > happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, > > then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware > > of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > I remember something about that, but the allegations were very very untrue. I even witnessed the evolution of the code in question. At best, the allegation was a mistake. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 17:16:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28768 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28716 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00745; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA09151; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:15:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806110015.RAA09151@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806102155.OAA13862@usr01.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jun 10, 98 09:55:44 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Terry Lambert: [[ ... ]] > > I'm going ahead with my current implementation and look forward to > > hearing from any other hackers who are interested in this. ---I've been doing further digging since your mail. This black-hole keeps getting more interesting.... > > I'm interested. > > Part of the problem here is that FreeBSD doesn't fully support XPG/4. > > Another part of the problem is that XPG/4 is encoded multibyte, which > is bad from a number of major perspectives, starting with ISO2022. We've got v 2.0 of the xpg4 library in 2.2.6. Do you know if any other flavor of BSD has more complete support? > > I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > all known human languages. > This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly going toward the ISO families. > I would suggest an initial 16 bit wchar_t with an assumption of a > zero valued code page designator. If ISO ever gets around to adding > other code pages, we can deal with that at that time using page > selection. Meanwhile, we'll be able to interportate with Microsoft > and JAVA, which use 16 bit wchar_t encodings. > > > I think the first (and hardest) step is the shells. The shells need > to be internationalized based on the fact that they (can) intrpret > exit codes to the user as error messages. Exit codes, certainly; but where you've got syserror() output, that's another issue. Agree that the shells are the base. csh|tcsh, and the sh|ksh group. > > The last time I converted csh, this was absolute hell because the > code was badly organized for internationalization. > > The next hardest step is the editors, starting with "vi". They have > to be able to support Unicode. nvi/nex already have been tweaked for 8-bit international support. I learned this accidently. WAs quite surprised to see messages in French and German. :-) Nonetheless, I see why you like the Unicode solution. Someone said, ``Well, French support is great, but how are you going to handle Japanese?'' > > I have had FS-based Unicode support working for a very long time, > though it has failed to be committed. One big issue is that directory > entry blocks must grow from 512b to 1k. This has a number of > implications to the soft updates work currently in progress. This is > because, in order to support a maximally sized path component, 512 + 24 > bytes is needed for unicaode, as opposed to 256 + 24 (which fits in 512b) > for an 8 bit charaacter set. :-( ! How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the same for Japanese and Chinese? > > If we were to do something stupid, like UTF-7 or UTF-8, it would have > to grow to 5 * 256 + 24, minimally, to support 5:1 character expansion > possible, as opposed to the 2:1 of flat Unicode encoding. You've lost me here. What does the translation format do, or rather, how? > > For character set attributed FS's (like NFS v2/v3 will have to be), you > can do the translation in in the kernel on the blocks on their way out > (a 2:1 expnasion in memory of a 1:1 disk image for a given ISO character > set attribution for the filesystem). > > Thanks for your feedback. It's probably a good idea to consider the broader design issues now than to paint myself into a corner. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 17:39:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02757 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr [193.54.152.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02313; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr) Received: from neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.2]) by inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA28750; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:33:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (smt@alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.9]) by neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA23712; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:38:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (smt@localhost) by alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12086; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:33:27 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr: smt owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:33:26 +0200 (CEST) From: "Srdjan M. Tijanic" To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806102006.NAA24467@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG First word : I am using FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD (in alphabetical order). About Copyright : Why don't create something like "*BSD Copyright" ? Last word : My prefered OS is *BSD ! --- smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr http://www.cs.univ-paris8.fr/~smt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 17:43:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03547 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:43:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (lunacity.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.118.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02760; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mycroft@lunacity.ne.mediaone.net) Received: (from mycroft@localhost) by lunacity.ne.mediaone.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA20587; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:40:32 -0400 (EDT) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806110014.TAA10898@dyson.iquest.net> From: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: 10 Jun 1998 20:40:31 -0400 In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson"'s message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:14:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "John S. Dyson" writes: > Charles M. Hannum said: > > > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > > > I remember something about that, but the allegations were very > very untrue. I even witnessed the evolution of the code in question. > At best, the allegation was a mistake. That's *not* true. In the case in question, the code was *clearly* copied, and in fact a notice was later added -- but only after repeated insults and harassment by you, Garrett and Rod. Indeed, at one point I was told that a superset of the code had had my copyright notice removed and was sent to the Copyright Office to be registered under someone else's name (an allegation which itself appears to have been false). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 17:50:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04812 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:50:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04666 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id JAA06355; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:46:43 +0900 (JST) To: Gary Kline cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: kline's message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:15:33 MST. <199806110015.RAA09151@tao.thought.org> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:46:43 +0900 Message-ID: <6351.897526003@coconut.itojun.org> From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, >> Another part of the problem is that XPG/4 is encoded multibyte, which >> is bad from a number of major perspectives, starting with ISO2022. > We've got v 2.0 of the xpg4 library in 2.2.6. > Do you know if any other flavor of BSD has more > complete support? I've been working on iso-2022 encoding support for runelocale (xpg4) library. At this moment I'm working on some specific packages (for example, nvi or scheduler software called "sch") but will be able to merge the modification into xpg4 library part. >> I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support >> all known human languages. > This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly > going toward the ISO families. Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and unexpandable. >> I would suggest an initial 16 bit wchar_t with an assumption of a >> zero valued code page designator. If ISO ever gets around to adding >> other code pages, we can deal with that at that time using page >> selection. Meanwhile, we'll be able to interportate with Microsoft >> and JAVA, which use 16 bit wchar_t encodings. I would like wchar_t to be 32bit, OR MORE. We will see more mutliple 96x96 character pages at the same time so 16bit is really not enough. Modified xpg4 library assumes that wchar_t to be at least 32bit. Otherwise I cannot encode iso-2022 variant character sets into. >> The last time I converted csh, this was absolute hell because the >> code was badly organized for internationalization. >> The next hardest step is the editors, starting with "vi". They have >> to be able to support Unicode. > nvi/nex already have been tweaked for 8-bit international > support. I learned this accidently. WAs quite > surprised to see messages in French and German. :-) > Nonetheless, I see why you like the Unicode solution. > Someone said, ``Well, French support is great, but how > are you going to handle Japanese?'' Do you mean the internationalization of messages displayed by nvi? or file content? If it is the latter one, please install nvi-m17n from /usr/ports/{japanese,korean,chinese}/nvi-* and see how it works. (I'm responsible for nvi-m17n...) >> I have had FS-based Unicode support working for a very long time, >> though it has failed to be committed. One big issue is that directory >> entry blocks must grow from 512b to 1k. This has a number of >> implications to the soft updates work currently in progress. This is >> because, in order to support a maximally sized path component, 512 + 24 >> bytes is needed for unicaode, as opposed to 256 + 24 (which fits in 512b) >> for an 8 bit charaacter set. > :-( ! > How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the > same for Japanese and Chinese? Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx falls into the category) is really important. However, I personally believe that filenames must be kept in C locale for simplicity... itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 18:06:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08354 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:06:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fep2.mail.ozemail.net (fep2.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08282 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe.shevland@horizonti.com) Received: from horizonti.com ([203.33.128.245]) by fep2.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA03989 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:05:27 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <357F2D15.9CBF449@horizonti.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:04:21 +1000 From: Joe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apache & SSL References: <357F158B.DD4B5027@horizonti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joe wrote: > > I want to listen on port 80 as an unsecure, normal http service. On port > 443 I want my SSL enabled http servicer. However, when I attempt to > connect to port 80 (actually just using localhost at the moment) I get a > 'Netscape error: document returned no data' dialog (Netscape 4.04). > > I can use 'https://localhost' and all works fine (brings up the > certificate dialog blah blah), however I cannot use > 'http://localhost:443'. Is this a VirtualHost problem? > > Cheers. Just replying to my own message; the documentation on the Apache web site is much better than that provided with the source code patches. I should RTFM more often. Problems fixed. -- Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 18:06:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08471 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nanguo.chalmers.com.au (gateway.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07934; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@chalmers.com.au) Received: from chalmers.com.au (carbon.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.26]) by nanguo.chalmers.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06778; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:02:12 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <357F2EFC.958201C2@chalmers.com.au> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:12:28 +1000 From: Robert Chalmers Reply-To: robert@chalmers.com.au Organization: chalmers.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Charles M. Hannum" CC: dg@root.com, Jason Thorpe , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Enough Already!!! Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806102202.PAA13537@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Charles M. Hannum wrote: > > David Greenman writes: > > > If this is indeed "not the first time that something like this has > > happened", and there is another instance where this needs to be corrected, > > then by all means point it out so that it can be corrected. I'm not aware > > of any such cases ever occuring before myself, however. > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- Support Whirled Peas. Business in China? China House robert@chalmers.com.au ph:61 7 49440357 fx:61 7 49578425 China House Uses Webposition to ensure Top Spot in Searches http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/webposition To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 18:16:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09901 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09698; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11224; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110115.UAA11224@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Charles M. Hannum" at "Jun 10, 98 08:40:31 pm" To: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Charles M. Hannum said: > > "John S. Dyson" writes: > > > Charles M. Hannum said: > > > > > > I suppose that depends on how far back you want to go. I distinctly > > > recall another case of code being copied without retaining a notice, > > > and I was personally flamed quite vehemently when I mentioned it in in > > > a private forum. I can't claim there are more -- though I do wonder > > > -- because I haven't paid much attention to FreeBSD code since then. > > > > > > At any rate, this discussion can only lead to more flames. > > > > > I remember something about that, but the allegations were very > > very untrue. I even witnessed the evolution of the code in question. > > At best, the allegation was a mistake. > > That's *not* true. In the case in question, the code was *clearly* > copied, and in fact a notice was later added -- but only after > repeated insults and harassment by you, Garrett and Rod. Indeed, at > one point I was told that a superset of the code had had my copyright > notice removed and was sent to the Copyright Office to be registered > under someone else's name (an allegation which itself appears to have > been false). > That isn't true, if you are speaking of if_ed.c. Again, I wasn't the author, but I witnessed the evolution. The only reason for the flamage was outrage. If the claim wasn't so outrageous, I would have understood it better. The amazing thing about this was that the driver wasn't brain surgery, except took many hours of testing and debugging that I participated in with the author. Bottom line, such code is behind us, and in the future we are better covered by keeping up-to-date, publically available source code control. For example, I can show the evolution of our code base now, where before, I couldn't. It would probably be good to check code in more often, in order to make sure that specious claims aren't made against it. The problem we have with that is that we do have problems with others grabbing ideas from our stuff without attribution, and using it competitively. I guess the good news is that our codebases are diverging?!?!?!? In order to protect FreeBSD from NetBSD's litigious nature, it seems that is best? That is sad :-(. I suspect that due to the lack of cooperation, or cooperative attitude from NetBSD, that FreeBSD will eventually move forward with a less encumbered Alpha codebase, pushing the technology. We can either work together, or make each other enemies. I wonder how long sniping from NetBSD to FreeBSD will continue? -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 18:27:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11533 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:27:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11269; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11277; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:25:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110125.UAA11277@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Srdjan M. Tijanic" at "Jun 11, 98 02:33:26 am" To: smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (Srdjan M. Tijanic) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:25:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Srdjan M. Tijanic said: > > First word : > I am using FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD (in alphabetical order). > > About Copyright : > Why don't create something like "*BSD Copyright" ? > > Last word : > My prefered OS is *BSD ! > Certain groups have problems internally with their own copyright issues, how can we all agree when they have historically not been able to agree with themselves??? I am personally for the non-advertising clause pseudo-BSD copyright, in order to simplify commercialization of the code. Whatever is on the license can significantly change how code can effectively be used. If one is needing self-engrandisement, they can put all kinds of advertising clauses on the code. Of course, that can decrease the desirability of the code signficantly, even if the code is technically excellent. If the goal is for the code to be used, and while at it, make some money on it yourself, then simpler licenses with simple credits clauses are desirable. It seems to me that the license (and relative litigious nature) provided by the author is part of the formula that gives software value, along with technical excellence and applicability issues. All this said, if a license is totally unacceptable, or the risk is judged too high, the codebases will soon totally diverge. The existance of a project will not be in jeopardy, but usage of individual components will change as needed. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 18:31:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12283 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA12275 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0yjwD1-000673-00; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:19 -0600 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA06881; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806110131.TAA06881@harmony.village.org> To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: PnP BIOS Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 15:33:39 PDT." <199806102233.PAA00784@dingo.cdrom.com> References: <199806102233.PAA00784@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:21 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199806102233.PAA00784@dingo.cdrom.com> Mike Smith writes: : The $PnP cookie isn't actually very useful by itself. It just tells you where to call to get the BIOS' attention, nothing important or useful there :-)... : Jonathan's 16-bit protected-mode call stuff actually handles the PnP : BIOS quite well - I have some pretty trivial code here that I have been : using for a while now that uses it. Jonathan sent me some private mail telling me this as well... : Just of curiosity, what information do you want that's not available : from the table structure? Most systems that implement SMB/DMI 2.0 also : have the table-based interface (because this is what they want to use : with NT). : : You can do all the table-based stuff with /dev/mem, obviously enough. How do you think I found out that I don't have a table :-). The machine that I have was built BEFORE the 2.1 spec was released which is the first spec to define the table (at least according to the copy I grabbed from the Pheonix web site). I'm looking at two or three projects with the BIOS stuff. One is to have a program similar to one that exists on some (all?) windows boxes that will tell me the resources that my machine uses. One is to use this information to "dig" for undocumented features of the motherboard that I'm using. And one is to get the APM device mappings so that I can try to control the Libretto a little better. Not all of these are SMB, per se, but they are kind of cool side projects that I'd like to play with given some time. Warner P.S. Is dingo still around? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 18:40:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13777 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lestat.nas.nasa.gov (lestat.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.50.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13425; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thorpej@lestat.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lestat.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA26554; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: lestat.nas.nasa.gov: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha Reply-To: Jason Thorpe From: Jason Thorpe Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:25:59 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) "John S. Dyson" wrote: > I guess the good news is that our codebases are diverging?!?!?!? > In order to protect FreeBSD from NetBSD's litigious nature, it > seems that is best? That is sad :-(. I suspect that due to > the lack of cooperation, or cooperative attitude from NetBSD, that > FreeBSD will eventually move forward with a less encumbered Alpha > codebase, pushing the technology. We can either work together, > or make each other enemies. I wonder how long sniping from > NetBSD to FreeBSD will continue? What planet are you on, John? NetBSD's code is NO MORE ENCUMBERED than FreeBSD's. The fact that we bitched about a copyright notice botch DOES NOT MEAN that NetBSD's code is somehow "more encumbered". I suspect if I removed your copyright notice from the async i/o stuff you wrote, put my own at the top, and then committed it to the NetBSD source tree, you'd be a bit annoyed, too. NOW... Doug - I'm sorry that I came off rather harshly. I could have, and should have, reacted differently. The notice botch was one of many (unrelated) straws that broke the camel's back. That's not really an excuse for my behavior, but please accept my apology. Jason R. Thorpe thorpej@nas.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center Home: +1 408 866 1912 NAS: M/S 258-5 Work: +1 650 604 0935 Moffett Field, CA 94035 Pager: +1 650 428 6939 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 18:41:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13918 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13534; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17067; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:39:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jason Thorpe cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:05:13 PDT." <199806101905.MAA23788@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:39:03 -0700 Message-ID: <17063.897529143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > *smirk* I wonder how many other copyright infringements are contained > within "FreeBSD's" alpha port... 1. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, I'm sure it was not out of malice that the code was checked in this way and we're certainly happy to go back and fix any copyright/attribution information which was inadvertantly left out. Doug has been working with a large colletion of sources lately, NetBSD probably playing an even smaller roll than Linux considering that NetBSD did not, until very recently, work on his Miata, and such confusion is easy to understand. 2. If it's truly your goal to foster better relations between our two groups, and you've certainly intimated as such during our previous meetings, then I can only suggest more talking and less smirking. There's absolutely no need for that kind of behavior here, and it's nothing more than simple indulgence on your part to display it. It doesn't further our progress in any way. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:04:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18278 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr [193.54.152.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17901; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr) Received: from neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.2]) by inferno.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA29230; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (smt@alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr [192.168.3.9]) by neptune.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24027; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:04:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (smt@localhost) by alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA12103; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:32 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: alpha6.bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr: smt owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:59:32 +0200 (CEST) From: "Srdjan M. Tijanic" To: "John S. Dyson" cc: "Charles M. Hannum" , dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110115.UAA11224@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This story start to look like a story of Netscape vs. IE !!! Shame on you. Where is Ghandi ??? --- smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr http://www.cs.univ-paris8.fr/~smt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:23:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21893 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21725; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11647; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:20:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110220.VAA11647@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> from Jason Thorpe at "Jun 10, 98 06:25:59 pm" To: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:20:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason Thorpe said: > > What planet are you on, John? NetBSD's code is NO MORE ENCUMBERED than > FreeBSD's. The fact that we bitched about a copyright notice botch DOES > NOT MEAN that NetBSD's code is somehow "more encumbered". > > I suspect if I removed your copyright notice from the async i/o stuff > you wrote, put my own at the top, and then committed it to the NetBSD > source tree, you'd be a bit annoyed, too. > > NOW... > .... A kind, reminding notice would have fostered better communications. My comments about NetBSD's encumberance are rooted in the Alpha issues that NetBSD has had. By fully removing NetBSD encumberances, we can get rid of the NetBSD --> FreeBSD sniping clause??? Encumberances aren't just legal, and if as bonafide users of your code, we are also going to be sniped at, that is just as bad as an obnoxious advertising clause. :-). If we made a mistake, a private message would have done nicely. I have NO interest in and in fact seriously offended by theft of code, and you can gain great cooperation by working *with* us. If you would have removed the copyright from the AIO stuff, you would have gotten a message to core@NetBSD.org, cc:core@freeBSD.org. That would have been equivalent to an infringement letter. Such letters are not generally publically disclosed, are they? Of course, that is probably true, unless the sending party is doing so for some weird political reason, right? If you are believing the anecdotal issues regarding the misappropriation of early driver code, you are being mislead. That is probably one major reason why I have not trusted (or liked) certain NetBSD people since. To me, that was the end of future dealings with or around NetBSD (one cannot deal with those that one cannot trust.) You are very welcome to use any code that I write which is under the BSD copyright (or freer.) Just *please* don't take ideas from my work without attribution... That is probably in the realm of mostly legal, but very rude (and shows a little bit of deceit, by taking credit for someone elses inventiveness.) This only reinforces my opinion originating several years ago. Believe it or not, certain obvious things weren't that obvious, were they? If they were, why didn't those obvious things appear before I did them? The code has been there for how many years? It is best not to snipe, and I would greatly appreciate it if you would quit stirring the pot. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:24:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22223 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21881; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11654; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:22:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110222.VAA11654@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: from "Srdjan M. Tijanic" at "Jun 11, 98 03:59:32 am" To: smt@bocal.cs.univ-paris8.fr (Srdjan M. Tijanic) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:22:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, mycroft@mit.edu, dg@root.com, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Srdjan M. Tijanic said: > > This story start to look like a story of Netscape vs. IE !!! > > Shame on you. > > Where is Ghandi ??? > It takes generations to solve these problems, when those who remember the wrongs die off. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:33:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23841 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23773 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03183; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA09494; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806110231.TAA09494@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <6351.897526003@coconut.itojun.org> from Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh at "Jun 11, 98 09:46:43 am" To: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh: > > Hello, > > >> Another part of the problem is that XPG/4 is encoded multibyte, which > >> is bad from a number of major perspectives, starting with ISO2022. > > We've got v 2.0 of the xpg4 library in 2.2.6. > > Do you know if any other flavor of BSD has more > > complete support? > > I've been working on iso-2022 encoding support for runelocale (xpg4) > library. At this moment I'm working on some specific packages > (for example, nvi or scheduler software called "sch") but will be > able to merge the modification into xpg4 library part. Wonderful! With the broadly international reach of FreeBSD I was hoping that someone in China|Japan|Taiwan would be into this. There may be a broader need for wide character support--say Sanskrit and Thai. ... > > >> I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > >> all known human languages. > > This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly > > going toward the ISO families. > > Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting > asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and > unexpandable. Is there a way of explaining (briefly :) how the iso-2022 character set is displayed? This point came up the other day and I guessed that it was done by a ((large)) table-lookup under X. > > >> I would suggest an initial 16 bit wchar_t with an assumption of a > >> zero valued code page designator. If ISO ever gets around to adding > >> other code pages, we can deal with that at that time using page > >> selection. Meanwhile, we'll be able to interportate with Microsoft > >> and JAVA, which use 16 bit wchar_t encodings. > > I would like wchar_t to be 32bit, OR MORE. We will see more mutliple > 96x96 character pages at the same time so 16bit is really not enough. > Modified xpg4 library assumes that wchar_t to be at least 32bit. > Otherwise I cannot encode iso-2022 variant character sets into. > Hm! In my world, our wchar_t is 32-bits. So your library would work. Since wchar_t can be redefined, I ought to be able to build it anywhere. > > nvi/nex already have been tweaked for 8-bit international > > support. I learned this accidently. WAs quite > > surprised to see messages in French and German. :-) > > Nonetheless, I see why you like the Unicode solution. > > Someone said, ``Well, French support is great, but how > > are you going to handle Japanese?'' > > Do you mean the internationalization of messages displayed by nvi? > or file content? If it is the latter one, please install nvi-m17n > from /usr/ports/{japanese,korean,chinese}/nvi-* and see how it works. > (I'm responsible for nvi-m17n...) > The messages. And probably the display, too. For the 8-bit character set languages, they can be coded in standard 8859-1 with \hex and catalogued. If iso-2022 can be similarly catalogued; then my initial idea is valid---however iso-2022 is displayed. Thanks for the pointer:: I'll ftp your port and see. > >> I have had FS-based Unicode support working for a very long time, > >> though it has failed to be committed. One big issue is that directory > >> entry blocks must grow from 512b to 1k. This has a number of > >> implications to the soft updates work currently in progress. This is > >> because, in order to support a maximally sized path component, 512 + 24 > >> bytes is needed for unicaode, as opposed to 256 + 24 (which fits in 512b) > >> for an 8 bit charaacter set. > > :-( ! > > How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the > > same for Japanese and Chinese? > > Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx > falls into the category) is really important. However, I personally > believe that filenames must be kept in C locale for simplicity... > > itojun > I'll check out iso-2022 further; if you know of any english-language docs on this, please sent me a pointer. gary -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:37:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24594 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24268; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:35:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA14842; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806110233.TAA14842@implode.root.com> To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: mycroft@mit.edu (Charles M. Hannum), thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 CDT." <199806110115.UAA11224@dyson.iquest.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:33:36 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> That's *not* true. In the case in question, the code was *clearly* >> copied, and in fact a notice was later added -- but only after >> repeated insults and harassment by you, Garrett and Rod. Indeed, at >> one point I was told that a superset of the code had had my copyright >> notice removed and was sent to the Copyright Office to be registered >> under someone else's name (an allegation which itself appears to have >> been false). >> >That isn't true, if you are speaking of if_ed.c. Actually, I believe he is talking about if_ie.c. In that case there was some code, apparantly that had the origin of NetBSD/mycroft that was used in some way to add the 3c507 support. I must admit that I had completely forgotten about this (it was something like 4 years ago, after all). I don't know how much of his code was "copied", but nonetheless, I think Charles was poorly treated in that instance. For those that remember the environment that all of that occured in, it shouldn't be too surprising. Anyway, I'd really like to put this issue behind us. I see no reason to open old wounds and the mistake that Doug made has been corrected - even the RCS files have been purged of the old rev at Jason's request. On behalf of the FreeBSD Project, I offer our sincere apologies that the mistake was made in the first place and I want to thank Jason for pointing it out so that it could be promptly corrected. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:41:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25426 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24835; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29334; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:32:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 10 Jun 1998, Jason Thorpe wrote: > Doug - I'm sorry that I came off rather harshly. I could have, and should > have, reacted differently. The notice botch was one of many (unrelated) I think this is the point where everyone goes back and reads what someone dubbed Dyson's "We love everyone" original reply, solemnly swears to "always cache a copy or their code's credits", and goes back to hacking. I'm sure Doug, of course, is already quickly checking his work to make sure that no other uncredited code snuck into the open. An unintentionally harsh reply is _at least_ as forgiveable as unintentionally uncredited code. :-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:41:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25507 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:41:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from couatl.uchicago.edu (couatl.uchicago.edu [128.135.21.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25421 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sfarrell@couatl.uchicago.edu) Received: (from sfarrell@localhost) by couatl.uchicago.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA12135; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:41:08 -0500 (CDT) To: freebsd hackers Subject: perl forking causes panic in 2.2.6-stable From: sfarrell@farrell.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 10 Jun 1998 21:41:08 -0500 Message-ID: <87bts0lkxn.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Lines: 105 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG tom christiansen posted a nifty prime number generator script that uses forking to approximate threads [attached below]. i decided it was a little bit boring at only find primes under 1000, so i upped the number to 5000. unfortunately this panics my machine! the panic is get_pv_entry: cannot get a pv_entry_t. i tried a less creative fork bomb with sh and noticed that it gives "cannot fork", causes significant denial of service, but can be killed and does not panic. sparc/solaris gives an error: can't pipe: too many open files..., but no panic. FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE #0: Mon Jun 8 21:58:37 CDT 1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------- #!/usr/bin/perl # prime-fork: use sugalskd's thread algorithm # but with real processes. sub main; sub check_num; sub forksub(&); sub queue; sub enqueue(*$); sub dequeue(*); use strict; main(); exit; sub main { pipe(UPSTREAM, DOWNSTREAM); my($head,$tail) = queue(); my $kid = forksub { close($tail); check_num($head, 2) }; close $head; for (my $i = 3; $i <= 5000; $i++) { enqueue($tail, $i); } close $tail; waitpid($kid,0); } sub check_num { my ($stream, $cur_prime) = @_; my ($spawned, $num); my($head, $tail) = queue(); while ($num = dequeue($stream) ) { next unless $num % $cur_prime; if ($spawned) { enqueue($tail, $num); next; } print "Found prime $num\n"; $spawned = forksub { close($tail); check_num($head, $num) }; close $head; } close($head) unless $spawned; close($tail); waitpid($spawned,0) if $spawned; exit; } sub forksub(&) { my $coderef = $_[0]; my $pid = fork(); die "cannot fork: $!" unless defined $pid; return $pid if $pid; goto &$coderef; # don't need no stinkin' stack frames } sub queue { local(*READER, *WRITER); pipe(READER, WRITER) || die "can't pipe: $!"; return (*READER, *WRITER); } sub enqueue(*$) { my ($stream, $n) = @_; syswrite($stream, pack("L", $n), 4); # XXX: errno } sub dequeue(*) { my ($stream) = @_; my $n; sysread($stream, $n, 4) == 4 || return; unpack("L", $n); } -- Steve Farrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:42:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25784 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25258; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11806; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:40:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110240.VAA11806@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-Reply-To: <199806110233.TAA14842@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Jun 10, 98 07:33:36 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:40:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, mycroft@mit.edu, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman said: > >> > >That isn't true, if you are speaking of if_ed.c. > > Actually, I believe he is talking about if_ie.c. In that case there was > some code, apparantly that had the origin of NetBSD/mycroft that was used > in some way to add the 3c507 support. I must admit that I had completely > forgotten about this (it was something like 4 years ago, after all). I don't > know how much of his code was "copied", but nonetheless, I think Charles was > poorly treated in that instance. For those that remember the environment > that all of that occured in, it shouldn't be too surprising. > Ohhh if it was the ie thing (which I don't even remember), then I am probably wrong. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 19:51:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27662 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27573 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:51:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id LAA07853; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:50:08 +0900 (JST) To: Gary Kline cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: kline's message of Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:42 MST. <199806110231.TAA09494@tao.thought.org> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:50:08 +0900 Message-ID: <7849.897533408@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> I've been working on iso-2022 encoding support for runelocale (xpg4) >> library. At this moment I'm working on some specific packages >> (for example, nvi or scheduler software called "sch") but will be >> able to merge the modification into xpg4 library part. > Wonderful! With the broadly international reach of > FreeBSD I was hoping that someone in China|Japan|Taiwan > would be into this. There may be a broader need for > wide character support--say Sanskrit and Thai. ... No problem under my framework, if proper multilingual renderer such as modified xterm (sanskritterm, or thaiter?) is there. I'm only working on internal string representation of multibyte, and multilingual string. For X11 modification for total multilingualization, people at Waseda Univ (japan). is doing a big project. I have never seen their code (I dunno if it is redistributed or not) but the screenshot is simply STUNNING. http://www.mling.waseda.ac.jp/ (text is in Japanese but you can view the screenshot) >> > This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly >> > going toward the ISO families. >> Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting >> asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and >> unexpandable. > Is there a way of explaining (briefly :) how the > iso-2022 character set is displayed? This point > came up the other day and I guessed that it was > done by a ((large)) table-lookup under X. I don't see what you exactly mean, could you please explain? If you are talking about font bitmap, bitmap font for asian characters are, of course, very large. This is because we have multiple (3 for Japanese, almost 10 for mainland chinese) 96x96 character sets. (/usr/X11/lib/X11/fonts/misc may have some asian bitmap font, if you have installed those) There are several outline (vector) font there, but it needs CPU power to be rendered. If you are talking about visibility control in CUI (curses), scrwidth() should pass you the necessary screen width to render a wchar_t letter. I don't know which standard defines scrwidth(), but it is implemented in runelocale code found in BSDI. >> > :-( ! >> > How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the >> > same for Japanese and Chinese? >> Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx >> falls into the category) is really important. However, I personally >> believe that filenames must be kept in C locale for simplicity... > I'll check out iso-2022 further; if you know of any > english-language docs on this, please sent me a > pointer. "Understanding Japanese Information Processing" by Ken Lunde, from O'reilly should be a best starting point. If you would like to start it cheaper, there are various webpages. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 20:03:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29828 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29794 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from localhost (perlsta@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA02503; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:03:20 GMT Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:03:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Peter Jeremy cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 In-Reply-To: <199806102250.IAA23365@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG supposedly the whole world will compile fine, only problem is that the kernel won't link properly with 2.8.1 (haven't seen the problem myself but i know people that have tried) On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Peter Jeremy wrote: > I would like to do a make world using gcc-2.8.1, tweaked for my system > (ie Pentium-II), rather than the modified gcc-2.7.2.1 included in > 2.2.6-R. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 20:20:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03848 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03792 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12135; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:20:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110320.WAA12135@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: perl forking causes panic in 2.2.6-stable In-Reply-To: <87bts0lkxn.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> from "sfarrell@farrell.org" at "Jun 10, 98 09:41:08 pm" To: sfarrell@farrell.org Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:20:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG sfarrell@farrell.org said: > > tom christiansen posted a nifty prime number generator script that > uses forking to approximate threads [attached below]. > > i decided it was a little bit boring at only find primes under 1000, > so i upped the number to 5000. > > unfortunately this panics my machine! the panic is get_pv_entry: > cannot get a pv_entry_t. i tried a less creative fork bomb with sh > and noticed that it gives "cannot fork", causes significant denial of > service, but can be killed and does not panic. > I agree that we should catch the error witihout panicing. I have added code in (guess where) to reclaim pv_entries. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 20:35:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06275 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from couatl.uchicago.edu (couatl.uchicago.edu [128.135.21.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06238; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sfarrell@couatl.uchicago.edu) Received: (from sfarrell@localhost) by couatl.uchicago.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA12419; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:34:53 -0500 (CDT) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: perl forking causes panic in 2.2.6-stable References: <199806110320.WAA12135@dyson.iquest.net> From: stephen farrell Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 10 Jun 1998 22:34:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: "John S. Dyson"'s message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:20:11 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: <8790n4lig2.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "John S. Dyson" writes: > > unfortunately this panics my machine! the panic is get_pv_entry: > > > I agree that we should catch the error witihout panicing. I have > added code in (guess where) to reclaim pv_entries. pmap.c, i assume. which function? is/will the code be committed to -stable? -- Steve Farrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 20:41:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08126 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:41:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08084; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12283; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:40:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dyson) Message-Id: <199806110340.WAA12283@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: perl forking causes panic in 2.2.6-stable In-Reply-To: <8790n4lig2.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> from stephen farrell at "Jun 10, 98 10:34:53 pm" To: stephen@farrell.org (stephen farrell) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:40:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG stephen farrell said: > "John S. Dyson" writes: > > > > unfortunately this panics my machine! the panic is get_pv_entry: > > > > > I agree that we should catch the error witihout panicing. I have > > added code in (guess where) to reclaim pv_entries. > > pmap.c, i assume. which function? > pmap_collect > > is/will the code be committed to -stable? > I am afraid of destabilizing stable further. If someone else is willing to test and take ownership, I think that I can convince DG that it is a good thing. However, this is code that might more need other support infrastructure in place. (Alot of the VM code has side-effects.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 21:13:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13609 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (ulf@gatekeeper.Alameda.net [207.90.181.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13584 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ulf@Gatekeeper.Alameda.net) Received: by Gatekeeper.Alameda.net (8.9.0/8.8.6) id VAA19198; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980610211338.A18774@Alameda.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:38 -0700 From: Ulf Zimmermann To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Upgrading 2.2.2 kernel to understand newer fxp cards ? Reply-To: ulf@Alameda.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Organization: Alameda Networks, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello. For a temporary fix I want to upgrade only the fxp driver of a 2.2.2 kernel, as the current one doesn't know the PHY and is causing problems with autonegotiating 10/100 etc. Any tips, caveats ? A full upgrade to 2.2.6 is planed soon, but I need this fixed sooner. -- Ulf. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936 Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net | Fax#: 510-521-5073 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 21:13:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13610 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iconmail.bellatlantic.net (iconmail.bellatlantic.net [199.173.162.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13586; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmm125@bellatlantic.net) Received: from myname.my.domain (client201-122-35.bellatlantic.net [151.201.122.35]) by iconmail.bellatlantic.net (IConNet Sendmail) with SMTP id AAA05713; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:12:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Donn Miller X-Sender: dmm125@myname.my.domain To: ports@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: patch for wine-980601 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-2116600245-897523938=:248" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-2116600245-897523938=:248 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've got a patch to make the latest wine compile. Of course, maybe it needs a few #ifdef __FreeBSD__ #else type of things in relay32/kernel.spec, but I wasn't sure if .spec files can use preprocessor directives. 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In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:13:38 PDT." <19980610211338.A18774@Alameda.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:22:40 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >For a temporary fix I want to upgrade only the fxp driver of a 2.2.2 >kernel, as the current one doesn't know the PHY and is causing problems >with autonegotiating 10/100 etc. Any tips, caveats ? A full upgrade to >2.2.6 is planed soon, but I need this fixed sooner. Unfortunately, that's not possible due to the substantial differences that came in with Jason Thorpe's "if_media" support. You might be able to retrofit just the part of the driver that does the PHY frobbing, however (although you'll have to convert it back to using IFF flags). Good luck. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 22:45:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25876 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:45:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles69.castles.com [208.214.165.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25848 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA00693; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806110439.VAA00693@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Warner Losh cc: Mike Smith , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PnP BIOS In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:31:21 MDT." <199806110131.TAA06881@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:39:48 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In message <199806102233.PAA00784@dingo.cdrom.com> Mike Smith writes: > : The $PnP cookie isn't actually very useful by itself. > > It just tells you where to call to get the BIOS' attention, nothing > important or useful there :-)... Er, yeah. Forgot that bit. (Jonathan wrapped it all in a relatively nice thunking interface). > : Just of curiosity, what information do you want that's not available > : from the table structure? Most systems that implement SMB/DMI 2.0 also > : have the table-based interface (because this is what they want to use > : with NT). > : > : You can do all the table-based stuff with /dev/mem, obviously enough. > > How do you think I found out that I don't have a table :-). The > machine that I have was built BEFORE the 2.1 spec was released which > is the first spec to define the table (at least according to the copy > I grabbed from the Pheonix web site). I'd have to go check again, but I'm pretty certain that I have a couple of DMI 2.0 machines (Intel PR440FX and ASUS P2L97) that have the table - it's optional in 2.0 rather than mandatory IIRC. Still, if you don't have it, you don't have it. 8) > I'm looking at two or three projects with the BIOS stuff. One is to > have a program similar to one that exists on some (all?) windows boxes > that will tell me the resources that my machine uses. This is what I was playing with; extracting the available resource list as well as the occupancy of the system's onboard hardware. > One is to use this information to "dig" for undocumented features of > the motherboard that I'm using. Heh. 8) > And one is to get the APM device mappings so that I can try to control > the Libretto a little better. I'd be curious to know if you actually get any of those mappings out of it. You might want to see if the Libretto has an SMB Bus BIOS interface as well; you may be able to find stuff on that that's interesting. > Not all of these are > SMB, per se, but they are kind of cool side projects that I'd like to > play with given some time. Yes; there's lots of fun stuff, the biggest annoyance is that it's hard to work out from all the documentation what actually got implemented and what is just leftover wishfulness... > P.S. Is dingo still around? At times; it's one of the hats that my laptop wears. You're not trying to send replies to the envelope sender are you? I do my best to masquerade as a deliverable domain, but it'd hard without a single, visible host that I control somewhere in this new, harsh, relay-unfriendly world. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 22:47:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26244 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newserv.urc.ac.ru (newserv.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26127 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:47:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Received: from urc.ac.ru (y.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.37]) by newserv.urc.ac.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27440; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:41:33 +0600 (ESS) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Message-ID: <357F6E0D.FE51B0B2@urc.ac.ru> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:41:33 +0600 From: Konstantin Chuguev Organization: South Ural Regional Center of FREEnet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: Gary Kline , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806102155.OAA13862@usr01.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > all known human languages. > I agree at least because Unicode is not just a character set or subset of ISO 10646, but a database of character mnemonic names, collation rules, bidirectional writing, uppercasing, lowercasing, transliteration rules. This has huge importance in text processing. I am afraid ISO 2022 lacks these capabilities. Another thing is very simple conversion mechanism between UTF-8 and UCS-16/32, i.e. multibyte and wide character encodings. We need both encodings: the first for ASCII compatibility (and C zero-byte ended (char *)strings compatibility) and the second for fast searching/sorting. > I would suggest an initial 16 bit wchar_t with an assumption of a > zero valued code page designator. If ISO ever gets around to adding > other code pages, we can deal with that at that time using page > selection. Meanwhile, we'll be able to interportate with Microsoft > and JAVA, which use 16 bit wchar_t encodings. > > I think the first (and hardest) step is the shells. The shells need > to be internationalized based on the fact that they (can) intrpret > exit codes to the user as error messages. > > The last time I converted csh, this was absolute hell because the > code was badly organized for internationalization. > > The next hardest step is the editors, starting with "vi". They have > to be able to support Unicode. > That consists of 2 levels: character set level (wchar, mbyte, conversion, locale's LANG etc.) and message catalogues (locale's LANG). IMO, the second should be done only after the first is precisely developed. > I have had FS-based Unicode support working for a very long time, > though it has failed to be committed. One big issue is that directory > entry blocks must grow from 512b to 1k. This has a number of > implications to the soft updates work currently in progress. This is > because, in order to support a maximally sized path component, 512 + 24 > bytes is needed for unicaode, as opposed to 256 + 24 (which fits in 512b) > for an 8 bit charaacter set. > Do you mean processing UCS-16 in the kernel (FS-level)? I'm asking about it because any application is expecting 8-bit character zero-ended strings as file names. It does not matter if it is ASCII or any multibyte charset. So then we need a conversion between UCS-16 and UTF-8 (or probably locale's charset) in the kernel. > If we were to do something stupid, like UTF-7 or UTF-8, it would have > to grow to 5 * 256 + 24, minimally, to support 5:1 character expansion > possible, as opposed to the 2:1 of flat Unicode encoding. > > For character set attributed FS's (like NFS v2/v3 will have to be), you > can do the translation in in the kernel on the blocks on their way out > (a 2:1 expnasion in memory of a 1:1 disk image for a given ISO character > set attribution for the filesystem). > Another reason for including conversion routines into the kernel. -- Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Southern http://www.urc.ac.ru/~joy/ Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, mailto:joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 22:54:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27448 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from waru.life.nthu.edu.tw (waru.life.nthu.edu.tw [140.114.98.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27398 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from frankch@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw) Received: (from frankch@localhost) by waru.life.nthu.edu.tw (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22927; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:56:44 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from frankch) Message-ID: <19980611135643.05642@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:56:43 +0800 From: Chen Hsiung Chan To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: i18n - what I can do for it? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I found there're some interesing discussions about i18n on this list, so I subscribe to it. I have done some minor hack to libc(xpg4 part) to make it support big5, the encoding widely used in Taiwan and HongKong. The patches are located: http://waru.life.nthu.edu.tw/~frankch/locale/ These patches are toward some version between 2.2.5 and 2.2.6, so they might not applied cleanly to other systems. I am not sure about the way it is done. In fact big5 is not a good encoding (not conform to ISO-2022), but I can not get rid of it (it is the de facto standard in Taiwan now). -- Chen-Hsiung Chan [¸âÂíºµ](BIG5) Department of Life Science http://waru.life.nthu.edu.tw/~frankch/ National Tsing Hua University email: frankch@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw Taiwan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 22:56:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27891 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:56:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newserv.urc.ac.ru (newserv.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27636 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Received: from urc.ac.ru (y.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.37]) by newserv.urc.ac.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27516; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:51:28 +0600 (ESS) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Message-ID: <357F7060.2B5BBC16@urc.ac.ru> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:51:28 +0600 From: Konstantin Chuguev Organization: South Ural Regional Center of FREEnet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Kline CC: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806110015.RAA09151@tao.thought.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gary Kline wrote: > > ? I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > ? all known human languages. > ? > > This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly > going toward the ISO families. > What do you mean by ISO families? ISO 8859? ISO 2022? ISO 10646? Which of them? > ? The next hardest step is the editors, starting with "vi". They have > ? to be able to support Unicode. > > > nvi/nex already have been tweaked for 8-bit international > support. I learned this accidently. WAs quite > surprised to see messages in French and German. :-) > It's not internationalization. It's just localization. And generally, it's much easier to be done. > Nonetheless, I see why you like the Unicode solution. > Someone said, ``Well, French support is great, but how > are you going to handle Japanese?'' > And how are you going to handle both (+ Russian, for example :-) This certainly requires either one flat character set like ISO 10646 (at least its Plane 0) or ESC-switched one like ISO 2022. > ? > ? I have had FS-based Unicode support working for a very long time, > ? though it has failed to be committed. One big issue is that directory > ? entry blocks must grow from 512b to 1k. This has a number of > ? implications to the soft updates work currently in progress. This is > ? because, in order to support a maximally sized path component, 512 + 24 > ? bytes is needed for unicaode, as opposed to 256 + 24 (which fits in 512b) > ? for an 8 bit charaacter set. > > :-( ! > > How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the > same for Japanese and Chinese? ISO 2022 is just a mechanism of containing a number of subsets in one character set (switching between subsets with predefined ESC-sequences). -- Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Southern http://www.urc.ac.ru/~joy/ Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, mailto:joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 23:25:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02600 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:25:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newserv.urc.ac.ru (newserv.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02402 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Received: from urc.ac.ru (y.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.37]) by newserv.urc.ac.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27686; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:14:40 +0600 (ESS) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Message-ID: <357F75D0.CEBAC766@urc.ac.ru> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:14:40 +0600 From: Konstantin Chuguev Organization: South Ural Regional Center of FREEnet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh CC: Gary Kline , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <6351.897526003@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh wrote: > > ?? I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > ?? all known human languages. > ? This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly > ? going toward the ISO families. > > Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting > asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and > unexpandable. > Do you mean Unicode does not cover all the CJK characters? What is "unexpandable"? > ? How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the > ? same for Japanese and Chinese? > > Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx > falls into the category) is really important. However, I Why not to support both ISO 2022 and Unicode? Yes, it is more difficult to implement. But otherwise we can lose compatibility with other systems. > believe that filenames must be kept in C locale for simplicity... > IMO, any ASCII-compatible multibyte charset will do. In that case, if you prefer simplicity, just do not use characters with highest bit set. -- Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Southern http://www.urc.ac.ru/~joy/ Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, mailto:joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 23:40:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04655 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:40:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [195.8.129.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04488; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28103; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:38:12 +0200 (CEST) To: Jason Thorpe cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:25:59 PDT." <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:38:11 +0200 Message-ID: <28101.897547091@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199806110125.SAA26554@lestat.nas.nasa.gov>, Jason Thorpe writes: >On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > I guess the good news is that our codebases are diverging?!?!?!? > > In order to protect FreeBSD from NetBSD's litigious nature, it > > seems that is best? That is sad :-(. I suspect that due to > > the lack of cooperation, or cooperative attitude from NetBSD, that > > FreeBSD will eventually move forward with a less encumbered Alpha > > codebase, pushing the technology. We can either work together, > > or make each other enemies. I wonder how long sniping from > > NetBSD to FreeBSD will continue? > >What planet are you on, John? NetBSD's code is NO MORE ENCUMBERED than >FreeBSD's. The fact that we bitched about a copyright notice botch DOES >NOT MEAN that NetBSD's code is somehow "more encumbered". Interesting, If you have gotten rid of the NET2 stuff in your repository, couldn't you extend CVS read-only access to more people then ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." "ttyv0" -- What UNIX calls a $20K state-of-the-art, 3D, hi-res color terminal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Wed Jun 10 23:49:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05971 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jazz.snu.ac.kr (jazz.snu.ac.kr [147.46.59.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05944 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:49:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr) Received: (from junker@localhost) by jazz.snu.ac.kr (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA18183; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:43:06 +0900 (KST) To: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Cc: Gary Kline , tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <6351.897526003@coconut.itojun.org> From: CHOI Junho Date: 11 Jun 1998 15:43:06 +0900 In-Reply-To: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:46:43 +0900 Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh writes: > Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting > asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and > unexpandable. I don't understand why unicode is worse for Japanese. Just lack of some Kanji glyphs? (someone in Japan pointed me a book but I couldn't get the book...) > Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx > falls into the category) is really important. However, I personally > believe that filenames must be kept in C locale for simplicity... Yes, I agree. For internationalization, I suggest GNU gettext support. Although glibc or fileutils(except gnuls) is not used officially in the FreeBSD, there are many other program supporting GNU gettext. For multiple language messages, GNU gettext is used widely, so I think it is better to port it into FreeBSD(as a port). I am Korean language sub-maintainer in GNU NLS Project, but ironically I can't see the messages translated by me in my FreeBSD machine... gnuls, bison, a2ps, windowmaker, freetype need GNU gettext, but it is ignored in the phase of port compilation... -- ----Cool FreeBSD!----MSX Forever!---J.U.N.K.E.R/Beat Snatchers!---- CHOI Junho http://jazz.snu.ac.kr/~junker Distributed Computing System Lab,CS Dept.,Seoul National Univ., ROK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 00:50:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14332 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14272 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:50:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id QAA11479; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:48:42 +0900 (JST) To: CHOI Junho cc: Gary Kline , tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: junker's message of 11 Jun 1998 15:43:06 JST. X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:48:41 +0900 Message-ID: <11475.897551321@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting >> asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and >> unexpandable. >I don't understand why unicode is worse for Japanese. Just lack of >some Kanji glyphs? (someone in Japan pointed me a book but I couldn't >get the book...) For multilingualization Unicode is useless (as I wrote in the previous email to hackers). We already got a framework that is capable for multilingualization (iso-2022), we are already using it. euc-kr is one of iso-2022 family too, as you know. >> Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx >> falls into the category) is really important. However, I personally >> believe that filenames must be kept in C locale for simplicity... >Yes, I agree. >For internationalization, I suggest GNU gettext support. Although glibc >or fileutils(except gnuls) is not used officially in the FreeBSD, >there are many other program supporting GNU gettext. For multiple >language messages, GNU gettext is used widely, so I think it is better >to port it into FreeBSD(as a port). I am Korean language >sub-maintainer in GNU NLS Project, but ironically I can't see the >messages translated by me in my FreeBSD machine... gnuls, bison, a2ps, >windowmaker, freetype need GNU gettext, but it is ignored in the phase >of port compilation... yes, I agree that NLS is another important portion for internationalizing applications. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 00:50:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14346 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:50:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14317 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:50:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id QAA11421; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:44:15 +0900 (JST) To: Konstantin Chuguev cc: Gary Kline , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: joy's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:14:40 +0600. <357F75D0.CEBAC766@urc.ac.ru> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:44:15 +0900 Message-ID: <11417.897551055@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting >> asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and >> unexpandable. >Do you mean Unicode does not cover all the CJK characters? Unicode maps different Chinese/Japanese/Korean letters into the same codepoint. The actual appearance (gryph) will be determined by the selection of font. (so, there will be font just for Chinese, font just for Japanese, and font just for Korean). Therefore, it may be sufficient for supporting single asian language (for example Japanization), it is not sufficient for multilingualization (C/J/K support at the same time). With Unicode, you will never be able to write a plaintext with C/J/K letters mixed. For example, I frequently write such a plaintext, for list of plates for chinese restaurant, with description in Japanese attached. Such a plaintext cannot be generated with Unicode. >What is "unexpandable"? Unicode people stressed Unicode because of the "fixed bitwidth" nature of Unicode. Therefore, basically they will not be able to support more than 2^16 letters. Recently Unicode introduced "surrogate pair" which makes Unicode a variable bitwidth character set. This breaks the key feature of Unicode, and it shows that Unicode is not expandable as nature. (Correct me if I'm wrong about "surrogate pair"...) iso-2022 is well designed to accomodate new character sets to appear later. Even with the most simplest subset it can accomodate bunch of character sets. Handling bare iso-2022 string is some hard to implement because it is variable length (yes I agree). If we can provide a good library for iso-2022, then there's no reason for us to migrate to Unicode. >> Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx >> falls into the category) is really important. However, I >Why not to support both ISO 2022 and Unicode? Yes, it is more difficult >to implement. But otherwise we can lose compatibility with other systems. Of course my library support both of them. If you say setrunelocale("UTF2"), the internal and external representation will be come Unicode. If you say setrunelocale("ja_JP.iso-2022-jp") it will be come Japanese iso-2022-jp encoding. I'll try to release my library with sample application sooner. I think I can give you the tarball at New Olreans :-) itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 01:03:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16434 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newserv.urc.ac.ru (newserv.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16224 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Received: from urc.ac.ru (y.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.37]) by newserv.urc.ac.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28477; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:56:17 +0600 (ESS) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Message-ID: <357F8DA1.EDDBB6D0@urc.ac.ru> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:56:17 +0600 From: Konstantin Chuguev Organization: South Ural Regional Center of FREEnet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chen Hsiung Chan CC: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: i18n - what I can do for it? References: <19980611135643.05642@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chen Hsiung Chan wrote: > > I am not sure about the way it is done. In fact big5 is not a > good encoding (not conform to ISO-2022), but I can not get rid > of it (it is the de facto standard in Taiwan now). > There are no bad charset encodings, there are just incompatible ones :-) And there are no charset encodings compatible with all other practically used ones. Without speaking about 8-bit charsets, two major candidates for being elected as the universal are Unicode and ISO 2022. (Is big5 compatible/convertable to Unicode?) As we can see, none of them satisfies all users. While both are developing, there is a chance (but not a guarantee) that one of them will sometime satisfy all the people. We cannot say now, which of them. So there is a need in multiple charsets support in the OS and in powerful charset conversion mechanism. IMO it's worth choosing among something already developed in this area instead of making something completely from scratch. I am interesting, how many i18n APIs (or just source code pieces) are available for public use? Including charset conversion, gettext etc. BTW, TCL-8.1's conception looks very attractive. It uses Unicode (UTF-8) for its internal string representation, and has powerful and flexible charset conversion mechanism. There is one "system" character set (being got from locale), and all TCL's channels (virtual representation of files, sockets etc.) can have a charset associated other than "system". Currently supported charsets (not counting Unicode and UTF-8) are: ascii, big5, cp1250, cp1251, cp1252, cp1253, cp1254, cp1255, cp1256, cp1257, cp1258, cp437, cp737, cp775, cp850, cp852, cp855, cp857, cp860, cp861, cp862, cp863, cp864, cp865, cp866, cp869, cp874, cp932, cp936, cp949, cp950, dingbats, euc-jp, gb12345, gb1988, gb2312, iso2022-jp, iso2022-kr, iso2022, iso8859-1, iso8859-2, iso8859-3, iso8859-4, iso8859-5, iso8859-6, iso8859-7, iso8859-8, iso8859-9, jis0201, jis0208, jis0212, macCentEuro, macCroatian, macCyrillic, macDingbats, macGreek, macIceland, macJapan, macRoman, macRomania, macThai, macTurkish, macUkraine, shiftjis, symbol. All of them defined in external files. And as for TK-8.1, it has built-in mechanism of accepting keycodes in the system locale, and demultiplexing fonts' charsets from its internal Unicode to fonts available in the system. Tomorrow I added koi8-r to this list, and after patching lightly tcl-8.1 sources, made Zircon IRC client able to speak any of these charsets :-) I like it very much. I understand, that's i18n implementation in such high-level language as TCL is much simpler, than in C and the kernel. But the latter is not impossible, there's just the need in clear specification here. There is also TERENA's MAITS' internalization API, but there a few information about it in the Internet, and I don't know about its license terms and copyright. Anybody knows other examples? -- Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Southern http://www.urc.ac.ru/~joy/ Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, mailto:joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 02:11:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27122 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:11:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newserv.urc.ac.ru (newserv.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27042 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Received: from urc.ac.ru (y.urc.ac.ru [193.233.85.37]) by newserv.urc.ac.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28920; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:00:16 +0600 (ESS) (envelope-from joy@urc.ac.ru) Message-ID: <357F9CA0.F8F1DD61@urc.ac.ru> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:00:16 +0600 From: Konstantin Chuguev Organization: South Ural Regional Center of FREEnet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh CC: Gary Kline , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <11417.897551055@coconut.itojun.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh wrote: > > ?Do you mean Unicode does not cover all the CJK characters? > > Unicode maps different Chinese/Japanese/Korean letters into the same > codepoint. The actual appearance (gryph) will be determined by > the selection of font. (so, there will be font just for Chinese, > font just for Japanese, and font just for Korean). > > Therefore, it may be sufficient for supporting single asian language > (for example Japanization), it is not sufficient for > multilingualization (C/J/K support at the same time). With Unicode, > you will never be able to write a plaintext with C/J/K letters mixed. > For example, I frequently write such a plaintext, for list of plates > for chinese restaurant, with description in Japanese attached. > Such a plaintext cannot be generated with Unicode. > I see. Suppose it was made for saving space in the code table. And now, without external information about the language of the text, no one can properly render hieroglyphs. And I see ISO 2022 solves this problem for a plain text. But, although text/plain is very suitable for Email messages, for example, it is very difficult to index/search such documents without additional information (at least about language used), as different languages have different rules for sorting their letters/glyphs. Searching in multilingual documents is even more painful. How it can be realized with ISO 2022? I still think a flat character set table has many advantages in this case. Plus, as I said before, large database of each character's characteristics in Unicode. I don't want to say we should stop using ISO 2022. I just want to say we shouldn't stop (should start) using Unicode. I.e. to use both of them, as both have their advantages and disadvantages. > Handling bare iso-2022 string is some hard to implement because it > is variable length (yes I agree). If we can provide a good library > for iso-2022, then there's no reason for us to migrate to Unicode. > I think handling ISO 2022 texts for database purposes can require conversion of characters into some internal fixed width table, where all existing characters have a unique code. Then we get a kind of just superset of Unicode. For those Chinese/Japanese/Korean hieroglyphs, which now look differently, but have common historical root: I agree that they should have different character codes, at least because Latin, Cyrillic and Greek letters "A" are coded differently, although they have the same historical root as well. We cannot perfectly describe any glyph's meaning without historical, language and some other contexts. If any glyph has ambiguity in its usage, this ambiguity has to be reflected in a database for automatic processing. One way is to code every glyph's variant for every language in the world uniquely. Another is to save space but develop additional algorithms for distinguishing variants for the context provided. Truth is somewhere in the middle. I am not an expert in Unicode, just very interested person. Probably, we should consult with i18n teams of different authorities. > ?? Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx > ?? falls into the category) is really important. However, I > ?Why not to support both ISO 2022 and Unicode? Yes, it is more difficult > ?to implement. But otherwise we can lose compatibility with other systems. > > Of course my library support both of them. If you say > setrunelocale("UTF2"), the internal and external representation > will be come Unicode. If you say setrunelocale("ja_JP.iso-2022-jp") > it will be come Japanese iso-2022-jp encoding. > > I'll try to release my library with sample application sooner. > I think I can give you the tarball at New Olreans :-) > Great. What about conversion? Having an internationalized OS still require the ability of the user to comunicate with other, non-internationalized parties with 8-bit or other character sets. -- Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Southern http://www.urc.ac.ru/~joy/ Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, mailto:joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 03:30:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11467 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:30:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA11372 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA25375; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:05:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199806111005.GAA25375@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: I2C bus In-Reply-To: <19980609234406.41618@breizh.prism.uvsq.fr> from Nicolas Souchu at "Jun 9, 98 11:44:06 pm" To: Nicolas.Souchu@prism.uvsq.fr (Nicolas Souchu) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, mbouget@club-internet.fr X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > We're about to write Philips semiconductor support for the I2C bus. > > Of course, we think about writing something generic for the bus and > specific independent code for different controllers (ISA, parallel...) I have the code for both the Philips bus controller chip and a bit banging implementation. I've been using it as a /dev/io driver, but I have to make it into a FreeBSD device driver this month. I'll upload the latest by tomorrow AM - I have no time to do it this morning. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 04:42:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA26650 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:42:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA26529 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 04:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id UAA20422; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:33:33 +0900 (JST) To: Konstantin Chuguev cc: Gary Kline , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: joy's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:00:16 +0600. <357F9CA0.F8F1DD61@urc.ac.ru> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:33:33 +0900 Message-ID: <20418.897564813@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I see. Suppose it was made for saving space in the code table. >And now, without external information about the language of the text, >no one can properly render hieroglyphs. >And I see ISO 2022 solves this problem for a plain text. >But, although text/plain is very suitable for Email messages, for >example, >it is very difficult to index/search such documents without additional >information (at least about language used), as different languages >have different rules for sorting their letters/glyphs. Searching >in multilingual documents is even more painful. >How it can be realized with ISO 2022? >I still think a flat character set table has many advantages in this >case. >Plus, as I said before, large database of each character's >characteristics in Unicode. Handling (searching/indexing) multilingual data and storing multilingual data can be done in separate method (and I prefer them to be orthogonal). IMHO, for storing information we must retain as much information as possible, so iso-2022 wins here (because it is fully multilingual, even from standpoint of asian language users). For searching, there are several ways: 1. Have some dictionary, or regular expressions, to unify the item to be searched. For example, following regular expression should match the all occurance that means "data". (data|datum) We can do this for multiple languages. 2. Have canonical form, just for handling/searching. This can be Unicode maybe, or this can be wchar_t (rune_t for xpg4). Convert the source into canonical form, perform search/index over the canonical form, get the result, and dump the text in canonical form. If you store the original information using a format that unifies part of information in the source (e.g. Unicode) you'll lose some of the very important part in the file, and the lossage will not be recovered. For example, if you convert all the file you have into uppercase for searching, you'll never recover the uppercase/lowercase information. Unicode's unification is quite similar to this, for asian language speakers (especially multilingual-targetted people). xpg4 (runelocale) library provides a beautiful way of establishing (2) in the above. You can have a source file with ANY encoding you prefer. If you set environment variable LANG (setenv LANG=ja_JP.EUC), rune library will convert everything into wchar_t on read, via functions like fgetrune(). Your program will take care of wchar_t only, and you can output the result in the original encoding via fputrune(). The beauty here is, the mapping between the source file and wchar_t can be switched by environment variable LANG. It is not fixed, so we can be open about the internal encoding of wchar_t. Currently implemented xpg4 library uses 16bit UCS2 for LANG=UTF2, and 16bit packed EUC form for LANG=ja_JP.EUC. My library uses 32bit packed form for importing iso-2022 encoded string into 32bit wchar_t. >I don't want to say we should stop using ISO 2022. I just want to say >we shouldn't stop (should start) using Unicode. I.e. to use both >of them, as both have their advantages and disadvantages. Yes, I agree that Unicode can be useful in some places. But I do not like Unicode be the encoding for data sources (and Unicode tend to be stressed toward that). That way important portion of the information will be lost. >> Of course my library support both of them. If you say >> setrunelocale("UTF2"), the internal and external representation >> will be come Unicode. If you say setrunelocale("ja_JP.iso-2022-jp") >> it will be come Japanese iso-2022-jp encoding. >> I'll try to release my library with sample application sooner. >> I think I can give you the tarball at New Olreans :-) >Great. >What about conversion? For conversion, there seems to be a standard function defined such as iconv(3) or iconv_open(3). I'm thinking of implementing this, but it requires me to have a giant table, such as: iso-2022<->unicode with japanese gryphs iso-2022<->unicode with korean gryphs iso-2022<->unicode with chinese gryphs and more... somewhere in the filesystem. >Having an internationalized OS still require the ability of the user >to comunicate with other, non-internationalized parties with 8-bit >or other character sets. I maybe not getting what you mean here... For tagging encoding method we have charset parameter for Content-type: MIME header If charset parameter is incompatible mailer can notify the user of the incompatibility. Also there's multipart/alternative MIME multipart so that the same content with multiple encoding can be transmitted. We must also have a way to restrict some text to conform to some defined charset (say, charset=iso-2022-jp). Or, do you mean how to literally convert Japanese/Chinese into ASCII? Yes, there are several ways. Such as ROMA-JI for Japanese (I can write Japanese words in ASCII: "Fujiyama" "Geisha" "Sushi" "Harakiri"), or ping-ying for Chinese (correct?). itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 05:39:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04770 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 05:39:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tversu.ru (root@mail.tversu.ru [62.76.80.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04758 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 05:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vadim@gala.tversu.ru) Received: from gala.tversu.ru (vadim@gala.tversu.ru [62.76.80.10]) by tversu.ru (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24996 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:38:20 +0400 (MSD) Received: (from vadim@localhost) by gala.tversu.ru (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00406; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:38:59 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19980611163857.A304@tversu.ru> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:38:57 +0400 From: Vadim Kolontsov To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: sharity and panic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.90.11i Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, during playing with Sharity (http://www.obdev.at/Products/Sharity.html) I've got kernel panic with message "vrele: negative reference cnt". Something wrong with sys/kern/vfs_subr.c? FreeBSD 2.2.6. Regards, V. P.S. btw, does anybody uses Sharity to mount NT's disks? strange, but it doesn't work here (95/98/samba is just fine) -- Vadim Kolontsov Tver Internet Center NOC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 06:19:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10348 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheops.anu.edu.au (avalon@cheops.anu.edu.au [150.203.76.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09900; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au) Message-Id: <199806111317.GAA09900@hub.freebsd.org> Received: by cheops.anu.edu.au (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA067451027; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:17:07 +1000 From: Darren Reed Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:17:07 +1000 (EST) Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, core@FreeBSD.ORG, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, core@netbsd.org In-Reply-To: <199806110220.VAA11647@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Jun 10, 98 09:20:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Blah, you're all being very lame about this, IMHO. If people aren't going to credit work, then that's their problem. They're losers and probably have some sort of penis envy problem too. If you get depressed or angered over this then I reckon you've got bigger problems to worry about. Doing the work is more important than how many places your name is up in lights (well, I think so anyway). If you feel really like you've been robbed, speak to your lawyer. I don't understand why it is difficult for anyone to acknowledge the origins of source code written because so long as it is redistributable (as it is for nearly all *BSD code), it simply shouldn't matter. Just leave your ego at home. hmpf Too bad someone didn't see fit to cc the openbsd in this as well. I suspect there is blame to be shared there too, if blaming is what people want to do. Quite pathetic, really. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 07:01:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21133 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beer.org (lager.beer.org [199.166.37.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20608; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:57:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hpeyerl@beer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beer.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02509; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:57:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806111357.HAA02509@beer.org> X-Authentication-Warning: lager.beer.org: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: core@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha From: Herb Peyerl Cc: core@netbsd.org, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <2506.897573467.1@lager> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:57:47 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok, now that you've all had time to throw your diapers around; here's how this is going to work in the future: All copyright 'issues' will be discussed in private between two members of the two camps. There will be someone chosen on the FreeBSD side to represent FreeBSD and there will be someone chosen on the NetBSD side to represent NetBSD. I will be the person on the NetBSD side. FreeBSD will take a few days to decide who should represent them in these sorts of discussions and then they will inform me of their decision. Both parties will agree to notify one another of changes in staffing such that this mechanism is always in place. There will be no further discussion on this issue. That means people will drop this _NOW_. Please let me know before June 15th. Herb Peyerl Core Group The NetBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 07:31:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27139 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles322.castles.com [208.214.167.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27118 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA01739; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806111325.GAA01739@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: CHOI Junho cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , Gary Kline , tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization In-reply-to: Your message of "11 Jun 1998 15:43:06 +0900." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:25:12 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > For internationalization, I suggest GNU gettext support. Although glibc > or fileutils(except gnuls) is not used officially in the FreeBSD, > there are many other program supporting GNU gettext. For multiple > language messages, GNU gettext is used widely, so I think it is better > to port it into FreeBSD(as a port). I am Korean language > sub-maintainer in GNU NLS Project, but ironically I can't see the > messages translated by me in my FreeBSD machine... gnuls, bison, a2ps, > windowmaker, freetype need GNU gettext, but it is ignored in the phase > of port compilation... If the GNU gettext is GPL'd, using it for i18n work on the base FreeBSD system would seem to be a pretty bad idea. If we're serious about doing this "right", we need something that we can integrate entirely. Just for reference's sake, what's wrong with the XPG3 support we currently have (catopen/catclose/catgets)? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 07:55:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01496 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:55:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01071; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karl@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (karl@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id JAA01166; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:53:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id JAA07041; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:53:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980611095302.56559@mcs.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:53:02 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: Herb Peyerl Cc: core@FreeBSD.ORG, core@netbsd.org, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha References: <199806111357.HAA02509@beer.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199806111357.HAA02509@beer.org>; from Herb Peyerl on Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:57:47AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Uh, excuse me for just a second. First, WTF (decode that yourself) does this have to do with the -hackers list? I'm on this list to read about code, not about people pissing in each other's faces about this and that. Second, if you're writing code and giving it away under BSDish terms, you can be pissed, you can scream, you can moan, but UNLESS you file the code with the Copyright office you probably can't sue, and even then you probably can't get damages (what economic harm would you assert?). So drop the crap about lawyers and such. THIRD, and probably most importantly, NetBSD has zero - and I do mean zero - right to come storming in here and pontificate about how things will work on the FreeBSD side of the fence "in the future". I am not a CORE team member, but I use a lot of this code, and do my fair share of debugging on the -CURRENT release. Frankly, all this has done is convince me that ever looking into NetBSD would be a COMPLETE waste of my time. I've had a few run-ins with the FreeBSD core folks, but I've never see this kind of crap out of them - this is beyond silly, its insane. Grow the fsck up Herb. Having said all of this, I will say no more - except will you PLEASE get this off the -HACKERS list! -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/ | T1's from $600 monthly / All Lines K56Flex/DOV | NEW! Corporate ISDN Prices dropped by up to 50%! Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| EXCLUSIVE NEW FEATURE ON ALL PERSONAL ACCOUNTS Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | *SPAMBLOCK* Technology now included at no cost On Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 07:57:47AM -0600, Herb Peyerl wrote: > Ok, now that you've all had time to throw your diapers around; here's > how this is going to work in the future: > > All copyright 'issues' will be discussed in private between two > members of the two camps. There will be someone chosen on the > FreeBSD side to represent FreeBSD and there will be someone chosen > on the NetBSD side to represent NetBSD. I will be the person on > the NetBSD side. > > FreeBSD will take a few days to decide who should represent them > in these sorts of discussions and then they will inform me of their > decision. Both parties will agree to notify one another of changes > in staffing such that this mechanism is always in place. > > There will be no further discussion on this issue. That means people > will drop this _NOW_. > > Please let me know before June 15th. > > > Herb Peyerl > Core Group > The NetBSD Project > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 08:01:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02322 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from spoon.beta.com (root@mcgovern.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.106.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02285 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Received: from spoon.beta.com (mcgovern@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spoon.beta.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29559 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:00:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mcgovern@spoon.beta.com) Message-Id: <199806111500.LAA29559@spoon.beta.com> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: DIOCWLABEL not supported on vn devices Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:00:45 -0400 From: "Brian J. McGovern" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was just running through my 'make release' last night, and saw when doFS.sh was performing a disklabel on a vn device (the boot floppy), it returned the error: ioctl DIOCWLABEL: Operation not supported by device Now I understand that the primary purpose of this operation is to load the boot blocks on to the floppy image. I guess my question is whether this is actually working, or whether its failing for some strange reason? Comments? -Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 08:11:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03824 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com (cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com [199.94.215.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03789 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from moncrg@am026091.res.ray.com) Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) by cam-mail-relay1.bbnplanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01374 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09470 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:04:00 -0400 Received: from am026091.res.ray.com/138.125.142.48() by gatekeeper.ray.com id sma.897574838.019019; Thu Jun 11 10:20:38 1998 Received: (from moncrg@localhost) by am026091.res.ray.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01447 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:13:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from moncrg) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:13:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Gregory D. Moncreaff" Message-Id: <199806111513.KAA01447@am026091.res.ray.com> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: maxusers and panic in kmem_suballoc Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The other day I exceeded the system capacity of a 64meg ram machine via an overlarge (1000) maxusers [I was trying to build a kernel that would support several thousand descriptors >10k] I was wondering if anyone out there has a formula. script, etc that can evaluate maxusers and related parameters in a kernel config file against physical memory + swap and produce some kind of 'map' stating how much memory will be 'wired' etc, and perhaps some indication of sanity of such a configuration To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 09:16:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21364 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21336 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.9.0/8.9.0) id SAA28307 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:16:22 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199806111616.SAA28307@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Another softupdates panic To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:16:21 +0200 (SAT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I tried the new softupdate code here on our SMP machine and got a new panic that I haven't seen before. I did a "make release" and it paniced just after perl5 was installed and while it was busy compressing the perl5 man pages. The last thing on the xterm was: ------- ===> Compressing manual pages for perl-5.00404 ------- On the console, the following message was displayed: ------- panic: newdirrem: inum 250382 should be 250381 mp_lock = 01000001; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 Debugger("panic") Stopped at _Debugger+0x35: movb $0,_in_Debugger.98 ------- After the reboot fsck bailed out with the following message: ------- /dev/rsd1e: DIRECTORY CORRUPTED I=559752 OWNER=root MODE=40755 /dev/rsd1e: SIZE=1024 MTIME=Jun 11 15:01 1998 /dev/rsd1e: DIR=/3.0-980611-SNAP/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/i386-freebsd /dev/rsd1e: UNEXPECTED SOFTDEP INCONSISTENCY; RUN fsck MANUALLY. ------- And here is the output of bt in gdb: ------- beast# gdb -k kernel.3 vmcore.3 GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...(no debugging symbols found)... IdlePTD 289000 initial pcb at 2303fc panicstr: newdirrem: inum %d should be %d panic messages: --- panic: newdirrem: inum 250382 should be 250381 mp_lock = 01000001; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 panic: from debugger mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 boot() called on cpu#1 dumping to dev 20401, offset 557056 dump 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 --- #0 0xf011a9d3 in boot () (kgdb) bt #0 0xf011a9d3 in boot () #1 0xf011ad22 in panic () #2 0xf0101585 in db_panic () #3 0xf0101465 in db_command () #4 0xf01015f2 in db_command_loop () #5 0xf0103cb3 in db_trap () #6 0xf01dc244 in kdb_trap () #7 0xf01ed0e0 in trap () #8 0xf01dc4b1 in Debugger () #9 0xf011ad19 in panic () #10 0xf01b9361 in newdirrem () #11 0xf01b918c in softdep_setup_remove () #12 0xf01c18a7 in ufs_dirremove () #13 0xf01c3897 in ufs_remove () #14 0xf01c5a41 in ufs_vnoperate () #15 0xf013da47 in unlink () #16 0xf01edc2f in syscall () #17 0xe305 in ?? () #18 0x286d in ?? () #19 0x1f89 in ?? () #20 0x107e in ?? () (kgdb) ------ If anyone want more info, just tell me what you want. John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 09:18:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21925 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hacker.cybernet.com (hacker.cybernet.com [192.245.33.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21886 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:18:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from msuarez@cybernet.com) Received: from hacker.cybernet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hacker.cybernet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04263 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:16:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from msuarez@cybernet.com) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:16:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: }D[t[Ab}].h{eiac/Wh3wsauzw}Jy@.Oq-5sx=BEkHN!D+v#ae^9vIcp*.@QVOUv0F,DW`z F?tjUtmX{k=X5Cj\Z8{{fs^v[NvMHqDrzmc_\toRe~nMk(7uUNp?c_KTaA!{qqJ>Z8-cP2Y_Q7H]yG !c\3}\y?j{a&sa/kkCO8_EDcyt@TK?ZLbnfg%$mk\TuK Reply-To: msuarez@cybernet.com Organization: Cybernet Systems Corp. (734) 668-2567 From: "Michael A. Suarez" To: FreeBSD Hackers Subject: DES and Exporitng Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On the FreeBSD web site, it says the DES crypto code that is included in FreeBSD is not for export. With all the recent changes in cyrptography exporting laws, does anyone know if this is still the case? Can anyone suggest a place I might go for more information? Thanks, Michael msuarez@cybernet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 09:46:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28122 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (n4DHJwrRbQ30rSUtgwTs4qjcEafCnvUO@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.46.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA28012 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.46.71] ([zT/cebf1B3uAKr29aZMK1HBmKAf2U4eO]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0ykASy-0005Mp-00; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:44:44 +0100 Received: from njs3 by oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0ykASx-0003ly-00; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:44:43 +0100 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:44:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Michael A. Suarez" "DES and Exporitng" (Jun 11, 12:16pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: msuarez@cybernet.com, FreeBSD Hackers Subject: Re: DES and Exporitng Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 11, 12:16pm, "Michael A. Suarez" wrote: } Subject: DES and Exporitng > On the FreeBSD web site, it says the DES crypto code that is included in > FreeBSD is not for export. With all the recent changes in cyrptography > exporting laws, does anyone know if this is still the case? What changes in the crypto exporting laws? > Can anyone suggest a place I might go for more information? http://www.cdt.org/ http://www.nsa.gov:8080/mission.html Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 09:54:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29974 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29897 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA01482; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd001478; Thu Jun 11 16:47:34 1998 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:47:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: John Hay cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another softupdates panic In-Reply-To: <199806111616.SAA28307@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG what revision of ffs_softdep.c is that? (latest is 1.9 as I speak) On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, John Hay wrote: > Hi, > > I tried the new softupdate code here on our SMP machine and got a new > panic that I haven't seen before. I did a "make release" and it paniced > just after perl5 was installed and while it was busy compressing the > perl5 man pages. The last thing on the xterm was: > > ------- > ===> Compressing manual pages for perl-5.00404 > ------- > > On the console, the following message was displayed: > > ------- > panic: newdirrem: inum 250382 should be 250381 > mp_lock = 01000001; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 > Debugger("panic") > Stopped at _Debugger+0x35: movb $0,_in_Debugger.98 > ------- > > After the reboot fsck bailed out with the following message: > ------- > /dev/rsd1e: DIRECTORY CORRUPTED I=559752 OWNER=root MODE=40755 > /dev/rsd1e: SIZE=1024 MTIME=Jun 11 15:01 1998 > /dev/rsd1e: DIR=/3.0-980611-SNAP/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/i386-freebsd > > /dev/rsd1e: UNEXPECTED SOFTDEP INCONSISTENCY; RUN fsck MANUALLY. > ------- > > And here is the output of bt in gdb: > > ------- > beast# gdb -k kernel.3 vmcore.3 > GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it > under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions. > There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details. > GDB 4.16 (i386-unknown-freebsd), > Copyright 1996 Free Software Foundation, Inc...(no debugging symbols found)... > IdlePTD 289000 > initial pcb at 2303fc > panicstr: newdirrem: inum %d should be %d > panic messages: > --- > panic: newdirrem: inum 250382 should be 250381 > mp_lock = 01000001; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 > panic: from debugger > mp_lock = 01000002; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 > boot() called on cpu#1 > > dumping to dev 20401, offset 557056 > dump 128 127 126 125 124 123 122 121 120 119 118 117 116 115 114 113 112 111 110 109 108 107 106 105 104 103 102 101 100 99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90 89 88 87 86 85 84 83 82 81 80 79 78 77 76 75 74 73 72 71 70 69 68 67 66 65 64 63 62 61 60 59 58 57 56 55 54 53 52 51 50 49 48 47 46 45 44 43 42 41 40 39 38 37 36 35 34 33 32 31 30 29 28 27 26 25 24 23 22 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 > --- > #0 0xf011a9d3 in boot () > (kgdb) bt > #0 0xf011a9d3 in boot () > #1 0xf011ad22 in panic () > #2 0xf0101585 in db_panic () > #3 0xf0101465 in db_command () > #4 0xf01015f2 in db_command_loop () > #5 0xf0103cb3 in db_trap () > #6 0xf01dc244 in kdb_trap () > #7 0xf01ed0e0 in trap () > #8 0xf01dc4b1 in Debugger () > #9 0xf011ad19 in panic () > #10 0xf01b9361 in newdirrem () > #11 0xf01b918c in softdep_setup_remove () > #12 0xf01c18a7 in ufs_dirremove () > #13 0xf01c3897 in ufs_remove () > #14 0xf01c5a41 in ufs_vnoperate () > #15 0xf013da47 in unlink () > #16 0xf01edc2f in syscall () > #17 0xe305 in ?? () > #18 0x286d in ?? () > #19 0x1f89 in ?? () > #20 0x107e in ?? () > (kgdb) > ------ > > If anyone want more info, just tell me what you want. > > John > -- > John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 10:14:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03563 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fang.cs.sunyit.edu (perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu [192.52.220.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03453 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu) Received: from localhost (perlsta@localhost) by fang.cs.sunyit.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27360 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:15:34 GMT Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:15:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: compiled kernel with gcc 2.8.1 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG excuse the naiveness of this post. >From what i understand the reason FreeBSD isn't using gcc 2.8.1 is because the kernel doesn't link properly. Just today, (i don't know why) i decided to try to compile it with 2.8.1 and it seems to have worked. I edited the makefile in /usr/src/sys/compile/K6233 (my compile dir) and set CC=/usr/local/bin/gcc i also edited the makefile in the "aic7xxx" dir to also point to /usr/local/gcc then the usual: make clean && make depend && make -j24 all && make install rebooted and everything seems fine except my nerves (worrying about a panic of course.) :) anyhow this is on -current as of last night (built with the standard gcc of freebsd though 2.7.2.1 ) i think it's still using /usr/bin/ld though... anyhow i'm confused and wondering if anyone is interested in this. if not, sorry for the noise, -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 10:28:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06495 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za [146.64.24.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06191 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:27:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za) Received: (from jhay@localhost) by zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA29308; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:26:39 +0200 (SAT) From: John Hay Message-Id: <199806111726.TAA29308@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za> Subject: Re: Another softupdates panic In-Reply-To: from Julian Elischer at "Jun 11, 98 09:47:29 am" To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:26:39 +0200 (SAT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > what revision of ffs_softdep.c is that? > (latest is 1.9 as I speak) It is version 1.9. > > > > I tried the new softupdate code here on our SMP machine and got a new > > panic that I haven't seen before. I did a "make release" and it paniced > > just after perl5 was installed and while it was busy compressing the > > perl5 man pages. The last thing on the xterm was: > > > > ------- > > panic: newdirrem: inum 250382 should be 250381 > > mp_lock = 01000001; cpuid = 1; lapic.id = 00000000 > > Debugger("panic") > > Stopped at _Debugger+0x35: movb $0,_in_Debugger.98 > > ------- John -- John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 10:41:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09816 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (intranet.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09784 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:41:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA235 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:40:07 +0200 Message-ID: <3580168C.ED1F4831@pipeline.ch> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:40:28 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FB06272AE2F75264B6D537D8" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FB06272AE2F75264B6D537D8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This looks promising ;-) -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch --------------FB06272AE2F75264B6D537D8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from brimstone.netspace.org ([128.148.157.143]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA226 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:29:01 +0200 Received: from unknown@netspace.org (port 41264 [128.148.157.6]) by brimstone.netspace.org with ESMTP id <862-10799>; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:30:37 -0400 Received: from NETSPACE.ORG by NETSPACE.ORG (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 1149611 for BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:20:05 -0400 Received: from brimstone.netspace.org (brimstone.netspace.org [128.148.157.143]) by netspace.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21742 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:09:54 -0400 Received: from unknown@netspace.org (port 41264 [128.148.157.6]) by brimstone.netspace.org with ESMTP id <96094-10798>; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:10:58 -0400 Approved-By: aleph1@DFW.NET Received: from mail.sy.net (mail.sy.net [209.146.21.4]) by netspace.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA12188 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:36:53 -0400 Received: (qmail 23402 invoked from network); 11 Jun 1998 08:39:52 -0000 Received: from ip230.washington11.dc.pub-ip.psi.net (HELO buglord.erols.com) (buglord@38.30.47.230) by mail.sy.net with SMTP; 11 Jun 1998 08:39:52 -0000 X-Sender: buglord@buglord.erols.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:36:53 -0400 Reply-To: Bug Lord Sender: Bugtraq List From: Bug Lord Subject: Secure Ping 1.0 To: BUGTRAQ@NETSPACE.ORG This is a rather quick and dirty ping mod I whipped up, mostly stuff that is done by intelligent admins (or else they remove ping access entirely), but I have never seen a ready-made package for such mods so here goes. Besides there are far too many people with too much bandwidth who do not fall under the previous admin catagory (the most obvious example of this being almost anyone running redhat linux on a university dorm connection). =) This is done as a complete program rather then a patch in the hopes of making it as simple as possible for those less cluefully endowed. And if you're in it for new features, I don't think anyone has ever done the logging of sigalrm bombs. =) >From the README: Program ------- SecurePing 1.0 by Bug Lord. Based off of netkit-base-0.10 w/ping 0.12. Apologies to Solar Designer for ripping the name but I thought of it before I remembered Secure-Linux and I'm too tired to rename it. =) Purpose ------- Ping was designed with the best of intentions, allowing users and admins alike to test their networks. Unfortunately, too often it is associated with Denial of Service attacks, and is often disabled (at least for non-root users). With the standard ping distributed on most systems today, a non-root user can easily cause DoS attacks even without the -f flood option. What admin hasn't logged on one day to see twenty "ping -s 65000" processes happily sucking up your network resources? It seems anywhere there is ping and a non-trusted user, chaos ensues. Not to mention having to explain why your box was responsible when the person being hit calls you or your uplink. What a headache, no wonder people disable ping. The goal of this program is to permit benign activity from well-meaning users while preventing malicious users from flooding others, and logging such attempts. Features -------- - Admin-definable packet size limits for root and non-root users. - Log attempted unauthorized flood/preload and over-size-limit attempts. - Log and prevents SIGALRM-bomb floods. - REAL simple + easy Libc/Glibc support Possible Future Additions ------------------------- - Limits on the number of times one user can run ping simultaneously. - Size limits for more than "root" and "not-root". Groups, etc. - Dynamic configuration, perhaps /etc/ping.conf or some such. - Log total bytes sent/received during a ping session. Platforms --------- Linux... As much as I would like to develop programs for other environments, the unfortunate fact is that I don't have access to any non-linux systems. If you can provide a (legit) account on another environment (FreeBSD most especially needed), please contact me. How to use ---------- Just edit config.h, everything is clearly explained there. Then configure, make, and make install as root. If you can't figure this part out then maybe this program is not for you. =) Thanks to --------- Kerry and Kyle for the motivation (good job guys), habit for the spell checking, Ted & Ramsey for my phone bills, and anyone else that I forgot. Contact ------- IRC: Bug_Lord (EFnet) EMAIL: buglord@sy.net Latest Version -------------- The latest version of SecurePing can be found at http://www.sy.net/security Shameless Plug -------------- Visit http://shell.sy.net for the most affordable, reliable, stable, and secure shells available to mere mortals. --------------FB06272AE2F75264B6D537D8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 11:03:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15218 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hen.scotland.net (hen.scotland.net [194.247.65.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15156 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:02:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@timog.prestel.co.uk) Received: from e1c6p9.scotland.net ([148.176.233.73] helo=timog.prestel.co.uk) by hen.scotland.net with esmtp (Exim 1.90 #5) for hackers@freebsd.org id 0ykBg5-0006Lm-00; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:02:24 +0100 Received: (qmail 5814 invoked by uid 1002); 11 Jun 1998 07:41:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19980611084148.63477@timog.prestel.co.uk> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:41:48 +0100 From: Timo Geusch To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 References: <199806102250.IAA23365@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:03:20PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I can confirm this problem on 2.2.6-stable; it is not possible to link a kernel with the -stable gcc-2.8.1 port. It complains about some missing functions that seem to be necessary for handling quadwords (__qdiv? - has been some time, I'm not sure any more). The wierd thing is that you can compile and link the -current kernel without any problems using the -current 2.8.1 port. Timo On Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:03:20PM +0000, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > supposedly the whole world will compile fine, only problem is that the > kernel won't link properly with 2.8.1 (haven't seen the problem myself > but i know people that have tried) > > On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Peter Jeremy wrote: > > > I would like to do a make world using gcc-2.8.1, tweaked for my system > > (ie Pentium-II), rather than the modified gcc-2.7.2.1 included in > > 2.2.6-R. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 11:11:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16696 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@COPLAND.CODA.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.222.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16612 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA01304; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: IBS / Andre Oppermann cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] In-Reply-To: <3580168C.ED1F4831@pipeline.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > This looks promising ;-) Personally, I was under-impressed. This doesn't stop anyone from writing a tiny program that sends 64k UDP packets to deny service. Or using any number of simple network utilities to generate denial of service problems. Just to name a few that allow for abuse -- dig, nslookup, sendmail, telnet, finger, lynx, netscape (or maybe that one is too heavy-weight? :). Especially if you use the situation he describes where a bunch of ping processes are running. I'm not sure we gain anything from this situation, although the signal semantics arrangement that results in the sigalarm arrangement should be addressed, of course (if it hasn't been already). Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 11:14:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17181 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sctmg02.sct.ucarb.com (sctmg02.sct.ucarb.com [140.170.101.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17167; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from NguyenHM@ucarb.com) Received: by sctmg02.sct.ucarb.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:17:21 -0400 Message-ID: <332F90115D96D0119CD500805FEA976B01665FC4@HSCMS01> From: "Nguyen HM (Mike)" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ISE Eiffel, anyone Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:15:58 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone successfully run ISE Eiffel 4.2 for Linux on their systems? Thanks, Mike. // Mike Nguyen // Unix Systems Analyst and Geek // Union Carbide Corporation * (281) 212-8073 // nguyenhm@ucarb.com * mikenguyen@sprintmail.com (personal) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 11:16:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17707 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17392; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03361; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Herb Peyerl cc: core@FreeBSD.ORG, core@netbsd.org, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:57:47 MDT." <199806111357.HAA02509@beer.org> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:14:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3356.897588888@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Ok, now that you've all had time to throw your diapers around; here's > how this is going to work in the future: [speaking for FreeBSD-core] Herb, While I respect the fact that this idea may represent your best effort at bringing law and order to these currently mean streets, it also strikes many of us in FreeBSD-core as something of an over-engineered solution for a problem which honestly and truly is just not that complex. I also appreciate that you called for a hiatus on this issue, but you also requested a response from us before June 15th so here is it. >From our perspective, this is all quite simple. If one of our committers should find his code plagiarized or otherwise incorporated into any other *BSD, be it NetBSD or OpenBSD, without proper attribution then he will simply contact the committer in question and ask, not demand, that the omission be rectified. Should that other *BSD committer be indeterminate or unresponsive to such queries after a reasonable period of time, then the committer will send a 2nd message to *BSD-core, just as they would for any other problem involving some "administrative issue" with that OS, and hope for a resolution through that forum. Under no circumstances will our committer also send his complaints to foobsd-hackers, foobsd-announce or any other public mailing list for which the issue is truly not pertinent and good only for raising unnecessary passions. Should sending a message to foobsd-core also prove ineffective as a last resort in resolving such problems, I think I can safely say that this would be indicative of such a state of crisis in relations or general responsiveness from foobsd that no "designated representative" (especially one who's already a member of foobsd-core) would change a thing about it anyway. In any case, that's essentially our policy as it stands now and I find the evidence insufficiently compelling that changing it would result in any more positive results than we're currently seeing. Moreover, if we could have simple *parity* with respect to our mutual policies for committers as outlined above, I think we'd have far fewer problems and freebsd-core, of course, stands more than ready and willing to resolve any issues you or any other NetBSD committer may raise in the future. Designating a single representative is really not a necessary component in making someone in FreeBSD more "accountable" for such mistakes and it only creates a single point of failure should someone attempt to contact our "delegate" during a period of unavailability. The last thing we need is for someone to go ballistic at the lack of a timely response, bringing us all crashing back down to here again. I furthermore think that the policy which I've outlined is a good one given that it's also applicable to a far greater category of potential conflicts than copyright issues alone, I myself never having seen the point of publicly airing *any* type of dispute between the *BSDs given that it only hands additional ammunition to various mutual competitors who are already more than sufficiently armed as it is, thank you. If we get a vote here, and I'm hoping that we're discussing your proposal as a potential option rather than an externally imposed mandate, then we'd prefer to vote for exercising simple common sense in the future rather than adopting additional constraints on our communications. Regards, - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 12:29:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03055 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:29:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (gKM/Pk780ySyFfG/LYbe4MsTiBI+nSY9@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.46.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA03011 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.46.71] ([U9rtDajPwmaMkkg9524Wjm9HG7Jzh3Yk]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0ykD1g-0005ko-00; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:28:44 +0100 Received: from njs3 by oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0ykD1f-0004QK-00; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:28:43 +0100 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:28:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: Robert Watson "Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0]" (Jun 11, 2:10pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Robert Watson , IBS / Andre Oppermann Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 11, 2:10pm, Robert Watson wrote: } Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] > On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > > This looks promising ;-) > > Personally, I was under-impressed. This doesn't stop anyone from writing > a tiny program that sends 64k UDP packets to deny service. Yeah. Pointless or what? What you really need is resource limits for sockets. Some Japanese folks worked on this a while ago, but I've lost the URL. It looked good but I'm not sure if its still being maintained. Resource limits for sockets would be neato, I'm sure the virtual hosting people would go crazy for it. I'd guess that you could shim it in pretty easily at the top of the sockets interface without too much trouble. Linux can do something like this using some special device file but I don't think its enforcable on a user by user basis. Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 12:47:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08224 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (freefall.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08156 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA170; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:45:24 +0200 Message-ID: <358033EB.76AA3F80@pipeline.ch> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:45:47 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG CC: archie@whistle.com Subject: SKIP for FreeBSD if you are not in the US Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Have found the SKIP sources for FreeBSD on this server in the Netherlands: ftp://ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/crypto/crypto/APPS/skip/skipsrc-1.0.tar.Z It's kinda slow but you have no choice outside of the US. Archie: Can you integrate that into the port? -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 12:53:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10176 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:53:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10043 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:52:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27413; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:52:31 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA14685; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:52:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980611215230.33871@follo.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:52:30 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: IBS / Andre Oppermann , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: archie@whistle.com Subject: Re: SKIP for FreeBSD if you are not in the US References: <358033EB.76AA3F80@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <358033EB.76AA3F80@pipeline.ch>; from IBS / Andre Oppermann on Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:45:47PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Jun 11, 1998 at 09:45:47PM +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Have found the SKIP sources for FreeBSD on this server in the > Netherlands: > > ftp://ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/crypto/crypto/APPS/skip/skipsrc-1.0.tar.Z > > It's kinda slow but you have no choice outside of the US. > > Archie: Can you integrate that into the port? NO. Don't do that. Archie shouldn't directly aid europeans with cryptography; he could get arrested and stuff. Provide patches, and let me or somebody else from europe and with commit access do it. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 13:01:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12490 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from unix.tfs.net (as1-p98.tfs.net [139.146.210.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12445 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jbryant@unix.tfs.net) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA22953; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:01:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199806112001.PAA22953@unix.tfs.net> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] In-Reply-To: from Niall Smart at "Jun 11, 98 08:28:43 pm" To: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:01:22 -0500 (CDT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: jbryant@unix.tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Republican: The best kind!!! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #16: Fri Jun 5 01:17:30 CDT 1998 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In reply: > On Jun 11, 2:10pm, Robert Watson wrote: > } Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] > > On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > > > > This looks promising ;-) > > > > Personally, I was under-impressed. This doesn't stop anyone from writing > > a tiny program that sends 64k UDP packets to deny service. > > Yeah. Pointless or what? What you really need is resource limits for > sockets. Some Japanese folks worked on this a while ago, but I've lost > the URL. It looked good but I'm not sure if its still being maintained. > Resource limits for sockets would be neato, I'm sure the virtual hosting > people would go crazy for it. I'd guess that you could shim it in pretty > easily at the top of the sockets interface without too much trouble. > Linux can do something like this using some special device file but I > don't think its enforcable on a user by user basis. mebbe limiting icmp, but can global socket limits create an unusable situation. heck such limits could be imposed that would prevent people from doing legitimate tasks. whatever happened to bandwidth limiting? an intelligent bandwidth limiting algorithm could detect a icmp flood and filter it's bandwidth down to a trickle.. other protocols could be done the same way. the original "secure-ping" idea presented is useful for preventing abuse by the casual unix user. anyhow, what kind of idiot keeps a compiler user-accessable in an untrusted environment?! mebbe a rtprio-type function that would operate on valid streams that have been bandwidth limited. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 13:14:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16370 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16325 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03795; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Eivind Eklund cc: IBS / Andre Oppermann , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, archie@whistle.com Subject: Re: SKIP for FreeBSD if you are not in the US In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:52:30 +0200." <19980611215230.33871@follo.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:13:52 -0700 Message-ID: <3791.897596032@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > NO. Don't do that. Archie shouldn't directly aid europeans with > cryptography; he could get arrested and stuff. Provide patches, and > let me or somebody else from europe and with commit access do it. Erm... While it's good to be cautious about crypto, let's also not spread FUD by taking it all just a little *too* seriously here now. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 13:20:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17679 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from heron.doc.ic.ac.uk (hnh+2ofxIrI7Pq4F63EramF8Knp09a6D@heron.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.46.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA17399 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk) Received: from oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk [146.169.46.71] ([y84RvFcEYUS5+de4hccDoSMkvKBOKKvs]) by heron.doc.ic.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0ykDp7-0005qh-00; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:19:49 +0100 Received: from njs3 by oak71.doc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0ykDp6-0004bf-00; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:19:48 +0100 From: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:19:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jim Bryant "Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0]" (Jun 11, 3:01pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: jbryant@unix.tfs.net, njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart) Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 11, 3:01pm, Jim Bryant wrote: } Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] > In reply: > > > > What you really need is resource limits for > > sockets. > > mebbe limiting icmp, but can global socket limits create an unusable > situation. heck such limits could be imposed that would prevent > people from doing legitimate tasks. Show me a resource manager that this doesn't hold true for. It's up to the administrator to decide reasonable limits. Besides, just limiting ICMP would be pointless, as Robert Watson just pointed out, people can just use UDP instead. > whatever happened to bandwidth limiting? an intelligent bandwidth > limiting algorithm could detect a icmp flood and filter it's bandwidth > down to a trickle.. other protocols could be done the same way. Well, this exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about, except I make it more flexible, for example it would nice to be able to specify "allow 8 megabytes outgoing traffic per day, a peak of 4 megabytes per hour, and a limit of 2 megabytes per day to any given host except xyz.com". > the original "secure-ping" idea presented is useful for preventing > abuse by the casual unix user. anyhow, what kind of idiot keeps a > compiler user-accessable in an untrusted environment?! "secure-ping" and removing the compiler will only help you make your system more secure if your users are very casual, i.e. completely brain dead in the UNIX department, in which case you don't really fit into the "untrusted environment" category. Anyway, I suggest we take this to freebsd-security. Niall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 13:24:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18473 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18291 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:23:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03906; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: jbryant@unix.tfs.net cc: njs3@doc.ic.ac.uk (Niall Smart), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:01:22 CDT." <199806112001.PAA22953@unix.tfs.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:23:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3902.897596586@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > the original "secure-ping" idea presented is useful for preventing > abuse by the casual unix user. anyhow, what kind of idiot keeps a > compiler user-accessable in an untrusted environment?! Perhaps the kind of idiot who also knows that it makes about as much sense to "secure" a system that way as it does to install a locking door on a cardboard shack. :-) There are enough free shell accounts given out on the net that any reasonably determined newbie cracker can compile something somewhere else or just use the copy of PERL which is invariably found somewhere to do socket manipulation. You can't really control the creation or importation of strange executables onto your system, but what you can control is the execute bit itself. My first intro to this was what Paul Vixie first did on gatekeeper.dec.com - joblow could log in and FTP over all the ICMP killers they wanted, but any attempts to chmod them executable would just be silently ignored - it was blocked at the syscall level. I also believe there it was a kernel variable he could just set and unset with the debugger to turn this off when he himself needed to install something, but FreeBSD could probably more effectively key off the secure level and have "no new execs" as a kernel option to go along with a securelevel > 1, or something. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 13:36:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21149 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21059 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:35:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id WAA27982 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:35:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id WAA20701 for hackers@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:16:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980611221635.A20572@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:16:35 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 Mail-Followup-To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <199806102250.IAA23365@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Wed, Jun 10, 1998 at 10:03:20PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4311 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Alfred Perlstein: > kernel won't link properly with 2.8.1 (haven't seen the problem myself > but i know people that have tried) Interesting. What is the message ? I used to compile/link with egcs/pgcc which are very close to 2.8.1. I even compiled an ELF kernel :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 13:44:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22822 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:44:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beer.org (lager.beer.org [199.166.37.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21904; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:40:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hpeyerl@beer.org) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beer.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA00566; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:40:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806112040.OAA00566@beer.org> X-Authentication-Warning: lager.beer.org: localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: core@FreeBSD.ORG, core@netbsd.org, cgd@netbsd.org, ross@netbsd.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Copyright infringement in FreeBSD/alpha From: Herb Peyerl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <563.897597602.1@lager> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:40:02 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > I furthermore think that the policy which I've outlined is a good one > given that it's also applicable to a far greater category of potential > conflicts than copyright issues alone, I myself never having seen the > point of publicly airing *any* type of dispute between the *BSDs given > that it only hands additional ammunition to various mutual competitors > who are already more than sufficiently armed as it is, thank you. If > we get a vote here, and I'm hoping that we're discussing your proposal > as a potential option rather than an externally imposed mandate, then > we'd prefer to vote for exercising simple common sense in the future > rather than adopting additional constraints on our communications. If that's how you need to have it handled in the future, then that's fine by me. I was hoping to have all such issues in the future filtered through a small group of people who are able to act in an appropriate and business-like fashion. The sort of flying around (nowhere near the handle, so to speak) that happened in the last couple of days is just a PR disaster waiting to happen and frankly, neither of us needs it. Even my earlier proposal, which I thought was fair and businesslike, generated an extremely abusive response (thankfully in private) and we just don't need that sort of thing anymore... So, it is done. Herb Peyerl Core Group The NetBSD Project. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 13:47:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23629 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@COPLAND.CODA.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.222.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23524 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02033; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:46:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: jbryant@unix.tfs.net, Niall Smart , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Secure Ping 1.0] In-Reply-To: <3902.897596586@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Perhaps the kind of idiot who also knows that it makes about as much > sense to "secure" a system that way as it does to install a locking > door on a cardboard shack. :-) > > There are enough free shell accounts given out on the net that any > reasonably determined newbie cracker can compile something somewhere > else or just use the copy of PERL which is invariably found somewhere > to do socket manipulation. You can't really control the creation or Or better yet, sh and telnet, and cat /dev/zero? > importation of strange executables onto your system, but what you can > control is the execute bit itself. My first intro to this was what > Paul Vixie first did on gatekeeper.dec.com - joblow could log in and > FTP over all the ICMP killers they wanted, but any attempts to chmod > them executable would just be silently ignored - it was blocked at the > syscall level. I also believe there it was a kernel variable he could > just set and unset with the debugger to turn this off when he himself > needed to install something, but FreeBSD could probably more > effectively key off the secure level and have "no new execs" as a > kernel option to go along with a securelevel > 1, or something. I personally like the LKM someone wrote here at TIS that replaces all open() syscalls with filenames that are .gif files with opens to a specific gif file that is a picture of dilbert. Makes most web pages look great. :) Interpretters make the no new exec behavior not-so-useful in the real world, unfortunately. Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 14:18:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02700 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:18:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (max1-93.airnet.net [207.242.81.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02689 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:18:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA05534; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:18:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:18:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "Kristopher B. Kirby" X-Sender: kris@ninbox.ml.org To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SKIP for FreeBSD if you are not in the US In-Reply-To: <3791.897596032@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Erm... While it's good to be cautious about crypto, let's also not > spread FUD by taking it all just a little *too* seriously here > now. :-) > > - Jordan A law can't be ruled unconstitutional unless it is first challenged. Someone has to make a stand... This is what the DOJ is for. If anyone knows an attorney who might want to do something on this scale pro bono, by all means clue them in. Maybe make it class action. Kris Kirby --------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 14:58:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09995 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:58:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09952 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27166; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:56:51 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd027150; Thu Jun 11 14:56:48 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26420; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:56:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806112156.OAA26420@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:56:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <6351.897526003@coconut.itojun.org> from "Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh" at Jun 11, 98 09:46:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > >> all known human languages. > > This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly > > going toward the ISO families. > > Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting > asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and > unexpandable. There are valid objections to Unicode, but they are couched in technical issues that do not apply to Japanese information processing, and so they are issues which are not raised by the Japanese as objections. These issues are: 1) There is an inherent bias against fixed cell rendering technologies in the Unicode standard. Specifically, there is an apparent bias toward requiring the display system to contain a proprietary rendereing technology, with a specific bias towards PostScript and related technologies that resultin licensing fees being paid to consortium members. This bias exists in ligatured languages -- that is it exists in alphabetic languages, not ideogrammatic languages, like Japanese. The problem is that ligatures change the glyph rendering, and there are not interspersed "private use" code points that can be overloaded in order to greate a fixed font rendering that doesn't depend on processing the ligatures at the rendering device. This makes it difficult to support ligatured languages on X devices. Examples of Ligatured languages: Tamil, Devengari, Arabic, script Hebrew, script English, script German, etc.. This issue can be worked around, either by "caving in" and paying the license fees for PostScript, or by doing a lot of work (like "xtamil" demonstrates). 2) The use of 16 bit rather than 8 bit characters introduces synchronization issues for ttys, pty's, pipes, serial ports, byte-stream files, and other byte-stream oriented devices. This is resolvable through the use of wchar_t internally, and the use of reliable delivery protocol encapsulation of the byte-streams, externally. 3) The common recommended encoding (generally espoused by the US-ASCII using Unicode Consortium members) is UTF-7/UTF-8, on the theory that existing ASCII documents will not need conversion and/or attribution. This breaks fixed field length input mechanisms, fixed field record implementations, character, rather than byte, input method mechanisms (such as used by X). It breaks the ability to do record counting using file size divided by record size. It breaks the utility of the ability to memory map files. It damages compressability. It weakens cryptographic standards by providing another vector for statistical analysis based on common prefix bit patterns. It complicates greatly most word counting mechanisms, most protocol-based content interchanges, and any other places where the encoding must be converted into an internal representation. It increases all processing overhead due to the need to convert between the encoded form and the more useful to computing tasks "raw" representation. This is resolvable by storing the raw representation rather than the encoded form, despite the ASCII-bigots objections. The Japanese don't have a ligatured language, they don't use anything but byte-encoded data, and they are already used to putting up with the slings and arrows associated with indeterminate storage encoding length. The main arguments that have been put forth by the Japanese representatives to the Unicode Consortium are rather specious: 1) You can't simultaneously represent text that needs to be rendered with alternate glyphs but which has unified code points. This is a valid criticism, if what you are building is translation workbenches between languages which do not have a common character set, or engaging in linguistic scholarship. This same criticism, however, is just as valid when you level it against ISO 2022. The answer is to use a markup language of some kind to do the font selection. For example, SGML, or any of a dozen SGML DTD's (such as O'Reilly's "DocBook"). So while the criticism is valid, no other standard has been suggested as a workaround for inband representation of character set selection. It seems to me that the common opinion the other consortium members is that this is a straw man in support of other less rational objections. 2) You can't seperate document content based on language, given only a raw Unicode document. This is a valid criticism as well, if what you are building is translation workbenches between languages which do not have a common character set, or engaging in linguistic scholarship. Once again, the criticism is equally valid against all other standards, and no suggestion has been made to resolve it, save the use of a markup language. It seems to me that the common opinion the other consortium members is that this is a straw man in support of the irrational desire to be able to "grep -v" out all text in a compound document that is not Japanese text. That is, the opinion is that there is no technical basis for this objection. 3) The lexical sequence of the character sets are classified in what has been termed "Chinese Dictionary Order". This criticism is based on the irrational fear that the Japanese text processing is somehow disadvantaged compared to other nationalities, specifically Chinese, when it comes to being able to use the ordinal value of the character to do sorting. This objection is irrational for a number of reasons: a) The ordering is "stroke-radical"; this means that the order is *not* sufficient for correct lexical ordering of Chinese. b) Japan has two dictionary orders. It is impossible to select a single order and thus silence every possible Japanese objection. c) Code page 0/8 of the Unicode standard (0/0/0/8 of ISO-10646) is in ISO 8859-1 order; Japan is thus not the only country which must employ seperate collation tables: i) Countries whose native character set is ISO 8859-X, where X != 1, must use a seperate table. ii) Countries whose native character set is a defacto rather than an ISO standard (such as the former Russian Republics KOI-8 and KOI-8U) must use a seprate table. iii) Countries where there are multiple lexical orderings (such as German telephone book vs. German Dictionary ordering of the Sigma character) must use a seperate table. iv) Countries that have problems to solve that occur only in alphabetic languages and not in ideogrammatic languages (such as case insensitive collation in the United States) must use a sperate table. d) The JIS-208 ordering is not altered by the JIS-212 extensions. The Japanese representitives have not suggested an alternate character classification algorithm that can encompass the unified glyphs, including the non-Japanese glyphs in the CJK unification, yet still result in JIS-208 lexical ordering of purely Japanese text. In other words, they haven't solved the problem, yet they refuse to let anyone else solve it in a way which conflicts with existing partial soloutions of Japanese origin. Unicode is a tool for Internationalization. Internationalization is the process of creating code that allows data-driven localization to a single locale, or, more broadly, to a single round-trip character set. Internationalization is *NOT* the process of creating code to that can simultaneously process documents containing text in several non-subset round-trip character sets (for example, a Japanese language teaching text written in the Indic script Devengari, or in Arabic). That process is called "multinationalization". The utility of multinationalized software is limited to linguistic scholarship and human translation processing, and similar pursiuts. It is an acceptable trade-off to require the authors of such tools to bear the additional cost of processing a markup language, in order to simplify the requirements for the *VAST* majority of applciations that do not require multinationaliztion. If mutlinationalization is truly the real issue for the Japanese, or anyone else for that matter, they are free to petition the ISO for allocation of ISO 10646 code pages other than page 0, which is now allocated for use by Unicode. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 15:24:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15679 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:24:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15640 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19972; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:23:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA12719; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:23:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806112223.PAA12719@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <357F7060.2B5BBC16@urc.ac.ru> from Konstantin Chuguev at "Jun 11, 98 11:51:28 am" To: joy@urc.ac.ru (Konstantin Chuguev) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Konstantin Chuguev: [Charset koi8-r unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > Gary Kline wrote: > > > > ? I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > > ? all known human languages. > > ? > > > > This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly > > going toward the ISO families. > > > What do you mean by ISO families? ISO 8859? ISO 2022? ISO 10646? > Which of them? I meant whatever representation of the International Standards Org that would translate *.msg files into *.cat catalogues that can be sent to stdout|stderr using the generic locate mechanisms. For the Latinate languages, iso-8859-[12]. If the iso-2022 model works for the Asian languages, then that, too. I've seen iso-10646 referenced but do not understand much about it... > > > ? The next hardest step is the editors, starting with "vi". They have > > ? to be able to support Unicode. > > > > > > nvi/nex already have been tweaked for 8-bit international > > support. I learned this accidently. WAs quite > > surprised to see messages in French and German. :-) > > > It's not internationalization. It's just localization. And generally, > it's much easier to be done. > All right. Then my first concern is localization. Any shell or other utility should be understandable by people in their own society. > > Nonetheless, I see why you like the Unicode solution. > > Someone said, ``Well, French support is great, but how > > are you going to handle Japanese?'' > > > And how are you going to handle both (+ Russian, for example :-) Russian? Dunno. I've seen the KOI8-R character set; I have several cyrillic fonts in my X11 library, but know absolutely nothing about how this would work with my catalog code. Since Russian should fit into an 8-bit byte, I'm hoping that the KOI8-R set would fit. > This certainly requires either one flat character set like ISO 10646 > (at least its Plane 0) or ESC-switched one like ISO 2022. > > > ? > > > > How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the > > same for Japanese and Chinese? > > ISO 2022 is just a mechanism of containing a number of subsets > in one character set (switching between subsets with predefined > ESC-sequences). Ah. It's getting a bit clearer now. In an earlier mail message you mentioned that with Unicode collation (and possibly more) was easier. Doesn't the locale code take care of these issues (assuming the ISO method)? I'm not so radically ambitious as to suggest solving the entire i18n issue. That could take a few centuries, :-) I'm looking for a way to implement messaging; and later, as much of the rest of ``locale'' as I can. gary > > -- > Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Southern > http://www.urc.ac.ru/~joy/ Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, > mailto:joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 15:36:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17962 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17659 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:35:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20328; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id PAA12768; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:34:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806112234.PAA12768@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <357F75D0.CEBAC766@urc.ac.ru> from Konstantin Chuguev at "Jun 11, 98 12:14:40 pm" To: joy@urc.ac.ru (Konstantin Chuguev) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Cc: itojun@itojun.org, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Konstantin Chuguev: [Charset koi8-r unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh wrote: > > > > ?? I would prefer going to a full-on Unicode implementation to support > > ?? all known human languages. > > ? This was my first leaning, but I'm increasingly > > ? going toward the ISO families. > > > > Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting > > asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and > > unexpandable. > > > Do you mean Unicode does not cover all the CJK characters? > What is "unexpandable"? > > > ? How does the ISO2022 model work here? Isn't it the > > ? same for Japanese and Chinese? > > > > Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx > > falls into the category) is really important. However, I > > Why not to support both ISO 2022 and Unicode? Yes, it is more difficult > to > implement. But otherwise we can lose compatibility with other systems. > > > believe that filenames must be kept in C locale for simplicity... > > > IMO, any ASCII-compatible multibyte charset will do. In that case, > if you prefer simplicity, just do not use characters with highest bit > set. > Let me pose the same question, a bit more broadly. Why cannot we support _both_ the ISO and Unicode paradigms? Are these absolutely incompatible systems? Is there some kind of ``religious-war''? Or is it simply too difficult? gary > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 15:37:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18165 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18142 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:37:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05858; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:37:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd005840; Thu Jun 11 15:37:03 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA28653; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:36:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806112236.PAA28653@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: itojun@iijlab.net (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:36:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: joy@urc.ac.ru, kline@tao.thought.org, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <11417.897551055@coconut.itojun.org> from "Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh" at Jun 11, 98 04:44:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> Yes, iso-2022 families are quite important for supporting > >> asian languages. Unicode is, for us Japanese, quite incomplete and > >> unexpandable. > >Do you mean Unicode does not cover all the CJK characters? > > Unicode maps different Chinese/Japanese/Korean letters into the same > codepoint. The actual appearance (gryph) will be determined by > the selection of font. (so, there will be font just for Chinese, > font just for Japanese, and font just for Korean). This is an oversimplification. There will be a font for each round-trip character set. Character sets for which standards existed that codified code points in different languages were not unified. For example, English and Japanese. This is only a problem in the case of trying to use two locales simultaneously. This never happens, unless you are a linguistic scholar or translator. For linguistic scholars and translators, the issue is resolved by using a markup language. The cost of using a markup language is paid by the people needing more than one locale at the same time. As opposed to all of us having to pay for it, the tiny number of people engaged in scholarship and translation have to pay for it. This is better because the people who benefit are made to pay for the benefit, instead of everyone shoulding the burden for a few unique applications. > Therefore, it may be sufficient for supporting single asian language > (for example Japanization), it is not sufficient for > multilingualization (C/J/K support at the same time). With Unicode, > you will never be able to write a plaintext with C/J/K letters mixed. > For example, I frequently write such a plaintext, for list of plates > for chinese restaurant, with description in Japanese attached. > Such a plaintext cannot be generated with Unicode. It can be generated with marked up Unicode, however. Unicode is a character set, not a font. For resons previously detailed, Unicode can *never* be a font. And was never intended as one. I defy you to show me a locale that supports both Japanese and Chinese file names simultaneously. You won't be able to do it because there is no character set standard that includes both all of the Japanese and all of the Chinese code points. > >What is "unexpandable"? > > Unicode people stressed Unicode because of the "fixed bitwidth" > nature of Unicode. Therefore, basically they will not be able to > support more than 2^16 letters. > Recently Unicode introduced "surrogate pair" which makes Unicode > a variable bitwidth character set. This breaks the key feature of > Unicode, and it shows that Unicode is not expandable as nature. > (Correct me if I'm wrong about "surrogate pair"...) I believe you are. The real issue is not Unicode, which is code page 0 of ISO 10646, but ISO 10646 itself, which supports 2^32 letters; 2^16 letters in each of 2^16 code pages. The only code page defined ringht now is code page 0/16, which is defined to be Unicode. > iso-2022 is well designed to accomodate new character sets to appear > later. Even with the most simplest subset it can accomodate bunch of > character sets. ISO 2022 is a font family markup standard, where font families are made identical to round-trip character sets. ISO 2022 is an *inferior* markup language, compared to SGML. > Handling bare iso-2022 string is some hard to implement because it > is variable length (yes I agree). If we can provide a good library > for iso-2022, then there's no reason for us to migrate to Unicode. Except that 85% of the computer systems in the world and 90% of the computers in the Western world are going to be running Unicode by the year 2010 because of Microsoft Windows and JAVA. And we would like to be able to interoperate with them without paying a very high conversion overhead when we do it. > >> Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx > >> falls into the category) is really important. However, I > >Why not to support both ISO 2022 and Unicode? Yes, it is more difficult > >to implement. But otherwise we can lose compatibility with other systems. > > Of course my library support both of them. If you say > setrunelocale("UTF2"), the internal and external representation > will be come Unicode. If you say setrunelocale("ja_JP.iso-2022-jp") > it will be come Japanese iso-2022-jp encoding. This is certainly a step in the right direction; however, I would still deperately encourage the use of 16 bit wchar_t for internal data representation in programs operating in a single locale. The entire ISO 8859-X using world has 8 bit characters. Going to UTF2 is asking them to attribute FS's where possible, and where not possible, double the storage requirements for data. Going to 32 bits, especially given that ISO 10646, the largest character set standard you can point at, only defines code page 0/16, is madness. The Western world will simply refuse to bear the overhead of 4 times the dataspace requirements to benefit the few people making Chinese restraunt menus for use in Japan, and who refuse to use a markup language to do it. There are Western advocates, specifically those using US ASCII and 7 bit NRCS (National Replacement Character Sets) who advocate UTF-7 and UTF-8 encoding so that they don't have to change their existing data files to have their code support Japanese or Chinese. There's no real unified computing infrastructure in Japan (it being broken into vendor specific hardware hardware markets), and that makes it a lot of expense for very little potential market. It's going to be hard enough to convince the US idiots that trading more RAM for lower processing overhead is a good idea. The use of wchar_t as a font index is ill considered. The font is not the same as the character set, nor should it be. The index should be based on the relative offset into the font, and use a base+offset to deal with multiple fonts in a single rendering space. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 15:39:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18598 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18491 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA15508; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:38:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:38:42 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Ollivier Robert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 In-Reply-To: <19980611221635.A20572@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Alfred Perlstein: > > kernel won't link properly with 2.8.1 (haven't seen the problem myself > > but i know people that have tried) > > Interesting. What is the message ? I used to compile/link with egcs/pgcc > which are very close to 2.8.1. I even compiled an ELF kernel :-) With 2.2.6-STABLE from the end of last week I get: loading kernel procfs_vnops.o: Undefined symbol `___cmpdi2' referenced from text segment nfs_bio.o: Undefined symbol `___cmpdi2' referenced from text segment nfs_subs.o: Undefined symbol `___cmpdi2' referenced from text segment ffs_vnops.o: Undefined symbol `___cmpdi2' referenced from text segment -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 15:52:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21671 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21554 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:51:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11090; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:51:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd010964; Thu Jun 11 15:51:23 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA29278; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:51:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806112251.PAA29278@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:51:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr, itojun@itojun.org, kline@tao.thought.org, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806111325.GAA01739@antipodes.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Jun 11, 98 06:25:12 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If the GNU gettext is GPL'd, using it for i18n work on the base FreeBSD > system would seem to be a pretty bad idea. If we're serious about > doing this "right", we need something that we can integrate entirely. I agree completely. We must not bind ourselves to that cross. > Just for reference's sake, what's wrong with the XPG3 support we > currently have (catopen/catclose/catgets)? XPG/3 does not support multibyte encoding, such as EUC. It supports only character set shift encoding (per ISO 2022), such as used by what is calle "Shift-JIS". My opinions: I believe it is an error to use multibyte encodings, as they destroy important information which is utilized by 8-bit alphabetic programmers to make user interaction and data storage task drastically less complicated than they would otherwise be. The Japanese already have to deal with this problem because of their failure to use the Kana (an alphabetic Japanese that fits comfortably in 8 bits), so these problems (apparently) don't chafe them like they chafe us. The information density of Kanji is drastically higher, and the Japanese will, arguably, beat the heck out of us in storage density, once they figure out how to solve the input problem for the normally 20,000 ideogrammatic characters known to an average Japanese with a PhD. One of the main reasons Japan doesn't lead the world in software production and sales right now is their reliance on Kanji. The most damning argument I can put forth against ISO 2022 is that it is inferior to SGML, even if SGML is only used as a font family markup language (which is all that ISO 2022 is). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 16:01:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23371 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:01:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isf.kiev.ua (sunone.isf.kiev.ua [194.44.162.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23312 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:00:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kushn@mail.kar.net) Received: from olinet.isf.kiev.ua by isf.kiev.ua with ESMTP id BAA09825; (8.8.7/2.b2) Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:26:42 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from kushnir.kiev.ua by olinet.isf.kiev.ua with SMTP id BAA15375; (8.8.last/vAk3/1.9) Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:11:30 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:19:41 +0300 (EEST) From: Vladimir Kushnir X-Sender: volodya@kushnir.kiev.ua Reply-To: Vladimir Kushnir To: Ollivier Robert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 In-Reply-To: <19980611221635.A20572@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Alfred Perlstein: > > kernel won't link properly with 2.8.1 (haven't seen the problem myself > > but i know people that have tried) > > Interesting. What is the message ? I used to compile/link with egcs/pgcc > which are very close to 2.8.1. I even compiled an ELF kernel :-) > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 Have you also got working ELF bootloader? If so, would you mind pointing me to where it is? (Yes, I know there was post on -current list, but it points to freefall, and I've no access there). Oh, BTW, thanks again for XFree patches. Thanks in advance, Vladimir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 16:01:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23375 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23313 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00970; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806112151.OAA00970@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: itojun@iijlab.net (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh), joy@urc.ac.ru, kline@tao.thought.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:36:57 -0000." <199806112236.PAA28653@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:51:03 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > There will be a font for each round-trip character set. Character sets > for which standards existed that codified code points in different > languages were not unified. For example, English and Japanese. > > This is only a problem in the case of trying to use two locales > simultaneously. This never happens, unless you are a linguistic > scholar or translator. This is clearly fallacious, as evidenced by Ito-san's earlier message. It is not uncommon for the ordinary asiatic citizen to want to use several locale's glyph sets in a single context. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 16:08:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24390 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24249 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16762; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:07:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd016692; Thu Jun 11 16:07:48 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00116; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:07:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806112307.QAA00116@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: itojun@iijlab.net (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:07:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: joy@urc.ac.ru, kline@tao.thought.org, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20418.897564813@coconut.itojun.org> from "Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh" at Jun 11, 98 08:33:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Handling (searching/indexing) multilingual data and storing > multilingual data can be done in separate method (and I prefer > them to be orthogonal). I prefer collation sequence to be handled in a seperate methoid, as well. > IMHO, for storing information we must retain as much information as > possible, so iso-2022 wins here (because it is fully multilingual, > even from standpoint of asian language users). ISO 2022 is inferior to SGML. > If you store the original information using a format that unifies > part of information in the source (e.g. Unicode) you'll lose some of > the very important part in the file, and the lossage will not be > recovered. Not if you store the file in marked-up format, unless you are arguing that you can't store SGML tags in Unicode, but you *can* store them in ISO8859-1? > For example, if you convert all the file you have into uppercase > for searching, you'll never recover the uppercase/lowercase > information. This is why you compile your regular expressions: to save the expense of the duplcation and conversion to avoid damaging the original data. > Unicode's unification is quite similar to this, > for asian language speakers (especially multilingual-targetted > people). This is why there are round-trip character sets, and why there is still locale information required. > xpg4 (runelocale) library provides a beautiful way of establishing > (2) in the above. > You can have a source file with ANY encoding you prefer. If you > set environment variable LANG (setenv LANG=ja_JP.EUC), rune library > will convert everything into wchar_t on read, via functions like > fgetrune(). This is *NOT* beautiful, unless you are in the business of selling very fast microprocessors to people who already own fast microprocessors. Trading markup for storage encoding that doesn't match processing encoding is a bad trade. It increases processing overhead drastically for no real gain. > >I don't want to say we should stop using ISO 2022. I just want to say > >we shouldn't stop (should start) using Unicode. I.e. to use both > >of them, as both have their advantages and disadvantages. > > Yes, I agree that Unicode can be useful in some places. But I > do not like Unicode be the encoding for data sources (and Unicode > tend to be stressed toward that). That way important portion of > the information will be lost. Not if you encode it in-band, like the standard says you are supposed to do, using a markup language (preferaably a widely accepted standard, such as SGML or the SGML DTD for RTF). > For conversion, there seems to be a standard function defined such as > iconv(3) or iconv_open(3). I'm thinking of implementing this, but it > requires me to have a giant table, such as: > iso-2022<->unicode with japanese gryphs > iso-2022<->unicode with korean gryphs > iso-2022<->unicode with chinese gryphs > and more... > somewhere in the filesystem. It is not required in the kernel, except in support of legacy systems exporting FS's via NFS. Even then, it's still not required to be in the kernel, if you are willing to accept a latency penalty for accessing legacy systems that you are too stubborn (or otherwise unable) to upgrade like you should. > >Having an internationalized OS still require the ability of the user > >to comunicate with other, non-internationalized parties with 8-bit > >or other character sets. > > I maybe not getting what you mean here... NFS systems running an ISO 8859-1 character set are the most common deployed case. The data stream needs to be attributed in the kernel. It is very tempting to attribute files as "text" and convert only text files. For UTF2 (16 bit wchar_t process encoded Unicode or ISO 10646 0/16) encoded files, it is trivial to expand one page to two pages when memory mapping the file. It is a hell of a lot less trivial to memory map a EUC encoded JIS-208 (or UTF-7/8 encoded Unicode) file using only code points 0x0000 to 0x00ff. This is because there is not a fixed expansion/contraction ratio, nor is there a mechanism for faultin on non-page boundries in most modern processors. I'm not willing to give up the ability to memory map files that contain text. > Or, do you mean how to literally convert Japanese/Chinese into ASCII? > Yes, there are several ways. Such as ROMA-JI for Japanese > (I can write Japanese words in ASCII: "Fujiyama" "Geisha" "Sushi" > "Harakiri"), or ping-ying for Chinese (correct?). Or you can convert the Japanese words into Katakana, instead, so long as you are willing to use the appropriate 8-bit character set, and forsake Kanji to do it. The sword cuts both directions. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 16:40:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01656 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01410 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22064; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id QAA12958; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:38:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806112338.QAA12958@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <357F9CA0.F8F1DD61@urc.ac.ru> from Konstantin Chuguev at "Jun 11, 98 03:00:16 pm" To: joy@urc.ac.ru (Konstantin Chuguev) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Cc: itojun@iijlab.net, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Konstantin Chuguev: [Charset koi8-r unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh wrote: > > > > ?Do you mean Unicode does not cover all the CJK characters? > > > > Unicode maps different Chinese/Japanese/Korean letters into the same > > codepoint. The actual appearance (gryph) will be determined by > > the selection of font. (so, there will be font just for Chinese, > > font just for Japanese, and font just for Korean). > > > > Therefore, it may be sufficient for supporting single asian language > > (for example Japanization), it is not sufficient for > > multilingualization (C/J/K support at the same time). With Unicode, > > you will never be able to write a plaintext with C/J/K letters mixed. > > For example, I frequently write such a plaintext, for list of plates > > for chinese restaurant, with description in Japanese attached. > > Such a plaintext cannot be generated with Unicode. > > > I see. Suppose it was made for saving space in the code table. > And now, without external information about the language of the text, > no one can properly render hieroglyphs. > And I see ISO 2022 solves this problem for a plain text. > > But, although text/plain is very suitable for Email messages, for > example, > it is very difficult to index/search such documents without additional > information (at least about language used), as different languages > have different rules for sorting their letters/glyphs. Searching > in multilingual documents is even more painful. > How it can be realized with ISO 2022? This is an issue for me, too. Not immediately, but in several months when I've finished the utility-messaging. Using iso-2022, will I be able to collate the character sets? Or is this even relevant? > I still think a flat character set table has many advantages in this > case. > Plus, as I said before, large database of each character's > characteristics in Unicode. > > I don't want to say we should stop using ISO 2022. I just want to say > we shouldn't stop (should start) using Unicode. I.e. to use both > of them, as both have their advantages and disadvantages. > Yes! If we could use both of these major representations, that would serve well. At least (or particularly) in the wchar_t languages. Use ISO for messages, for text-editors, and wherever else. Use Unicode where it worked better. ...It seems to me somewhat like having to _choose_ between hex and decimal. > > Handling bare iso-2022 string is some hard to implement because it > > is variable length (yes I agree). If we can provide a good library > > for iso-2022, then there's no reason for us to migrate to Unicode. > > > I think handling ISO 2022 texts for database purposes can require > conversion of characters into some internal fixed width table, > where all existing characters have a unique code. > Then we get a kind of just superset of Unicode. > > For those Chinese/Japanese/Korean hieroglyphs, which now look > differently, > but have common historical root: I agree that they should have > different character codes, at least because Latin, Cyrillic and Greek > letters "A" are coded differently, although they have the same > historical > root as well. > > We cannot perfectly describe any glyph's meaning without historical, > language and some other contexts. If any glyph has ambiguity in its > usage, this ambiguity has to be reflected in a database for > automatic processing. > One way is to code every glyph's variant for every language in the world > uniquely. Another is to save space but develop additional algorithms > for distinguishing variants for the context provided. Truth is somewhere > in the middle. > > I am not an expert in Unicode, just very interested person. > Probably, we should consult with i18n teams of different authorities. > > > ?? Yes, for Japanese, Chinese and Korean iso-2022 based model (euc-xx > > ?? falls into the category) is really important. However, I > > ?Why not to support both ISO 2022 and Unicode? Yes, it is more difficult > > ?to implement. But otherwise we can lose compatibility with other systems. > > > > Of course my library support both of them. If you say > > setrunelocale("UTF2"), the internal and external representation > > will be come Unicode. If you say setrunelocale("ja_JP.iso-2022-jp") > > it will be come Japanese iso-2022-jp encoding. > > > > I'll try to release my library with sample application sooner. > > I think I can give you the tarball at New Olreans :-) > > > Great. > What about conversion? > > Having an internationalized OS still require the ability of the user > to comunicate with other, non-internationalized parties with 8-bit > or other character sets. > Is MIME a possible solution here? A friend of mine currently studying in Japan sends me mail (in English!), but my mailer//MUA can't understand it. And I'm using MIME. So there are bugs. If someone sends me mail in 8859-1 from a 2022-jp platform, his kernel (or an optional) driver should probably do the conversion. gary > -- > Konstantin V. Chuguev. System administrator of Southern > http://www.urc.ac.ru/~joy/ Ural Regional Center of FREEnet, > mailto:joy@urc.ac.ru Chelyabinsk, Russia. > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 16:45:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02971 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:45:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02755 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:44:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00169; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:44:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd000113; Thu Jun 11 16:44:03 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01779; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:43:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806112343.QAA01779@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:43:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, itojun@iijlab.net, joy@urc.ac.ru, kline@tao.thought.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806112151.OAA00970@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Jun 11, 98 02:51:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > There will be a font for each round-trip character set. Character sets > > for which standards existed that codified code points in different > > languages were not unified. For example, English and Japanese. > > > > This is only a problem in the case of trying to use two locales > > simultaneously. This never happens, unless you are a linguistic > > scholar or translator. > > This is clearly fallacious, as evidenced by Ito-san's earlier message. > It is not uncommon for the ordinary asiatic citizen to want to use > several locale's glyph sets in a single context. They can use a markup language to select fonts. Naturally, I'd prefer the language be SGML rather than ISO 2022. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 16:54:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05011 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04969 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01221; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806112245.PAA01221@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), itojun@iijlab.net, joy@urc.ac.ru, kline@tao.thought.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:43:56 -0000." <199806112343.QAA01779@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:45:36 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > There will be a font for each round-trip character set. Character sets > > > for which standards existed that codified code points in different > > > languages were not unified. For example, English and Japanese. > > > > > > This is only a problem in the case of trying to use two locales > > > simultaneously. This never happens, unless you are a linguistic > > > scholar or translator. > > > > This is clearly fallacious, as evidenced by Ito-san's earlier message. > > It is not uncommon for the ordinary asiatic citizen to want to use > > several locale's glyph sets in a single context. > > They can use a markup language to select fonts. Naturally, I'd prefer > the language be SGML rather than ISO 2022. If you're advocating the use of a markup language, ie. forcing the issue into the application domain, then you're buying out of the entire issue by suggesting that it's not required in the system domain. Not that I necessarily disagree, just that you're effectively moving the language/character set bigotry line rather than doing away with it. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 17:22:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11102 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11046 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:22:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23062; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id RAA13037; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806120021.RAA13037@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806111325.GAA01739@antipodes.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Jun 11, 98 06:25:12 am" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Cc: junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr, itojun@itojun.org, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Mike Smith: > > > > For internationalization, I suggest GNU gettext support. Although glibc > > or fileutils(except gnuls) is not used officially in the FreeBSD, > > there are many other program supporting GNU gettext. For multiple > > language messages, GNU gettext is used widely, so I think it is better > > to port it into FreeBSD(as a port). I am Korean language > > sub-maintainer in GNU NLS Project, but ironically I can't see the > > messages translated by me in my FreeBSD machine... gnuls, bison, a2ps, > > windowmaker, freetype need GNU gettext, but it is ignored in the phase > > of port compilation... > > If the GNU gettext is GPL'd, using it for i18n work on the base FreeBSD > system would seem to be a pretty bad idea. If we're serious about > doing this "right", we need something that we can integrate entirely. This is an issue for me since whatever I bring in has to have the BSD-type copyright. Or GNU with no GNU libraries. (*mumble*) > > Just for reference's sake, what's wrong with the XPG3 support we > currently have (catopen/catclose/catgets)? > This is exactly what I'm using as a first-cut. I take the strings (English), translate them to French and German, generate the xxx.cat NLS catalogs, and so far, very good results. We are getting rid of the const sys_errlist[] array and doing immediate catalog lookup. So strerror() returns a string in whatever locale you have set. Similarly for the individual messages from each utility. My questions here was whether the iso-2022-* sets will work as does, say, de_DE.ISO_8859-1. Itojun-san has given me a pointer to his internationalization|localization work in nvi, so I'll see what happens. gary > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 17:45:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15984 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au [203.17.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15879 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:44:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au) Received: from mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au ("port 2005"@[139.188.23.1]) by gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-7 #U2695) with ESMTP id <01IY58SA8LB40023GY@gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:13:45 +1000 Received: from gsms01.alcatel.com.au by cim.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-10 #23324) with ESMTP id <01IY58EOPSWGC2RZQ1@cim.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:02:22 +1000 Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by gsms01.alcatel.com.au (8.8.8/8.7.3) id KAA15906 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:02:20 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:02:20 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <199806120002.KAA15906@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:41:48 +0100, Timo Geusch wrote: >I can confirm this problem on 2.2.6-stable; it is not possible to link a kernel >with the -stable gcc-2.8.1 port. It complains about some missing functions >that seem to be necessary for handling quadwords (__qdiv? - has been some >time, I'm not sure any more). I had forgotten about that problem - I had fixed it already. I am not aware of any cases where gcc 2.8.1 generates incorrect code. I have identified 3 cases where it generates sub-optimal code: a) A long-long variable divided by a constant power-of-2 generates an unnecessary call to __cmpdi2. This prevents a 2.2.5-R (and presumably 2.2.6-R or -stable) kernel from linking because __cmpdi2 is not included in the kernel support library. This is presumably the problem referred to by Timo. b) The code for random() does divide and modulo operations which gcc-2.7 merges into a single idivl instruction, whilst 2.8.1 generates additional code to `optimise' the division. c) In some cases where gcc converts a loop index multiplied by a constant into a temporary variable incremented by the constant, gcc 2.8.1 unnecessarily splits the addition into two pieces. For the first problem, I have a patch (posted to freebsd-ports on 13th April) that fixes this by extending the code in the expmed.c to open-code the 64-bit compare. It's about 500 lines. Richard Kenner developed patches for the other two problems and mailed them to me. I don't know what further distribution has been made. They total about 50 lines. If there's sufficient interest, I can post the patches. I am currently running (though not stressing) 2.2.5-R and 2.2.6-R kernels built with gcc 2.8.1 and I haven't identified any problems as yet. Peter -- Peter Jeremy (VK2PJ) peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Alcatel Australia Limited 41 Mandible St Phone: +61 2 9690 5019 ALEXANDRIA NSW 2015 Fax: +61 2 9690 5247 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 17:46:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16424 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15450 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:43:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27580; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:43:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd027507; Thu Jun 11 17:43:18 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04594; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:43:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806120043.RAA04594@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:42:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, itojun@iijlab.net, joy@urc.ac.ru, kline@tao.thought.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806112245.PAA01221@dingo.cdrom.com> from "Mike Smith" at Jun 11, 98 03:45:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > This is clearly fallacious, as evidenced by Ito-san's earlier message. > > > It is not uncommon for the ordinary asiatic citizen to want to use > > > several locale's glyph sets in a single context. > > > > They can use a markup language to select fonts. Naturally, I'd prefer > > the language be SGML rather than ISO 2022. > > If you're advocating the use of a markup language, ie. forcing the issue > into the application domain, then you're buying out of the entire issue > by suggesting that it's not required in the system domain. > > Not that I necessarily disagree, just that you're effectively moving > the language/character set bigotry line rather than doing away with it. Yes. That's quite true. It is my contention that the vast majority of uses of a computer system will occur in a single locale. I'm moving the line so that the task before us is internationalization, not multinationalization. For a multi-language word processor, which is what would be used to create the "Japanese Chinese Restraunt Menu", the onus is on the word processor to do the multilingual support (the person making up the menu falls into the category "translator", by the way). This means that the word processor application author, not the system library author, is responsible for the multinationalization code, and it means that the word processing applciation, not every application needing localization but not multinationalization, bears the compute intensive burden of running the multinationalization code. This removes the onus to support the input/output processing overhead from other application programs. Like "/bin/cat", for example. PS: There is a TeX extension for multilingual word processing, using Unicode available; the URL is http://www.ens.fr/omega/ It supports English, French, Japanese, Korean, Arabic, etc.; in other words, everything Unicode supports. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 17:52:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17800 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:52:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17778 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19889; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:52:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd019860; Thu Jun 11 17:52:20 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA05044; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:52:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806120052.RAA05044@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: kline@tao.thought.org (Gary Kline) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:52:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: joy@urc.ac.ru, itojun@iijlab.net, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806112338.QAA12958@tao.thought.org> from "Gary Kline" at Jun 11, 98 04:38:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Great. > > What about conversion? > > > > Having an internationalized OS still require the ability of the user > > to comunicate with other, non-internationalized parties with 8-bit > > or other character sets. > > > Is MIME a possible solution here? > > A friend of mine currently studying in Japan sends > me mail (in English!), but my mailer//MUA can't > understand it. And I'm using MIME. So there are > bugs. > > If someone sends me mail in 8859-1 from a 2022-jp > platform, his kernel (or an optional) driver > should probably do the conversion. This is an MUA issue, not a kernel issue. It is also a display agent issue. The easiest workaround is to install the kterm port and a Sony font, and set the mimetypes for your mail reader. This is trivial if the reader is "elm" and you have compiled it using "metamail". Alternately, since they are writing in English, you should not that they are probably using EUC-encoding (because of the ISO2022). If the content has not been translated to BASE64 to get through a 7 bit mail gateway, then you can save it to a file and read it with "more". This is because the JIS-208 standard character set that will have been used for the message; like Unicode, ISO 10646, ISO 8859-X, et. al., the JIS-208 character set is identical to US-ASCII for the first 128 code points. You could also configure your external viewer for: "Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP" to be simply the "more" program. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 17:59:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19381 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isis.uniandes.edu.co (root@Isis.uniandes.edu.co [157.253.50.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19326; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from y-carden@uniandes.edu.co) Received: from isis.uniandes.edu.co (y-carden@Isis.uniandes.edu.co [157.253.50.5]) by isis.uniandes.edu.co (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA25482; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:00:52 +0500 (GMT) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:00:51 +0500 (GMT) From: Yonny Cardenas Baron To: freebsd-tokenring@FreeBSD.ORG cc: hackers BSD Subject: Run FreeBSD on Token Ring Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Recompiling kernel with code in http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/tr.html, for SMC TokenCard Elite (ISA/EISA) or IBM 4/16 Shared Memory cards, I can run FreeBSD on Token Ring ? What more I have do ? Thanks for your help. ------------------------------------ YONNY CARDENAS B. e-mail : y-carden@uniandes.edu.co To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 18:03:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20321 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20281 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23714; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA13195; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806120102.SAA13195@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806112151.OAA00970@dingo.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "Jun 11, 98 02:51:03 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, itojun@iijlab.net, joy@urc.ac.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Mike Smith: > > > > There will be a font for each round-trip character set. Character sets > > for which standards existed that codified code points in different > > languages were not unified. For example, English and Japanese. > > > > This is only a problem in the case of trying to use two locales > > simultaneously. This never happens, unless you are a linguistic > > scholar or translator. > > This is clearly fallacious, as evidenced by Ito-san's earlier message. > It is not uncommon for the ordinary asiatic citizen to want to use > several locale's glyph sets in a single context. > > Or then again, scholarly work is being done increasingly by computer. I'm familiar with Thais doing translations from Sanskrit to Thai and Manadarin, for example. If we limit ourselves to the computer-nerd|geek mindset we are short-circuiting our potential. gary > > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 18:15:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23526 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23413 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01633; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806120006.RAA01633@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Gary Kline cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), tlambert@primenet.com, itojun@iijlab.net, joy@urc.ac.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:02:07 PDT." <199806120102.SAA13195@tao.thought.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:06:39 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > According to Mike Smith: > > This is clearly fallacious, as evidenced by Ito-san's earlier message. > > It is not uncommon for the ordinary asiatic citizen to want to use > > several locale's glyph sets in a single context. > > Or then again, scholarly work is being done increasingly > by computer. I'm familiar with Thais doing translations > from Sanskrit to Thai and Manadarin, for example. > > If we limit ourselves to the computer-nerd|geek mindset > we are short-circuiting our potential. It's still perhaps debatable as to whether this is an issue for the system domain or the application domain, however. As Terry points out, the goal here is to be able to present messages to the user in their native language and character set. I think that there's a fairly wide slew of perspective here, and some confusion as to what the various targets of desire are. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 18:16:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23838 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23755 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:16:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id KAA00354; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:14:35 +0900 (JST) To: Terry Lambert cc: kline@tao.thought.org (Gary Kline), joy@urc.ac.ru, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: tlambert's message of Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:52:15 GMT. <199806120052.RAA05044@usr09.primenet.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:14:35 +0900 Message-ID: <350.897614075@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Alternately, since they are writing in English, you should not that >they are probably using EUC-encoding (because of the ISO2022). If >the content has not been translated to BASE64 to get through a 7 bit >mail gateway, then you can save it to a file and read it with "more". > >This is because the JIS-208 standard character set that will have been >used for the message; like Unicode, ISO 10646, ISO 8859-X, et. al., >the JIS-208 character set is identical to US-ASCII for the first 128 >code points. Just to clarify: The Japanese character set mentioned above is JIS X0201, not JIS X0208. JIS X0201 has 94+96 characters, and it contains slightly modified ASCII (currency sign and some others) as well as katakana (Japanese). (modified ASCII is defined for other countries too, for example UK variant maps L-like "pound" sign for 0x24 (#)) JIS X0208 has 94x94 characters (yes, 94 times 94) and it has bunch of kanji letters. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 18:21:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24717 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24451 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01296; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:19:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd001280; Thu Jun 11 18:19:34 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA06619; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:19:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806120119.SAA06619@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: kline@tao.thought.org (Gary Kline) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:19:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: joy@urc.ac.ru, itojun@itojun.org, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806112234.PAA12768@tao.thought.org> from "Gary Kline" at Jun 11, 98 03:34:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Let me pose the same question, a bit more broadly. > Why cannot we support _both_ the ISO and Unicode > paradigms? Are these absolutely incompatible systems? > Is there some kind of ``religious-war''? Or is it > simply too difficult? ISO 10646 code page 0 *is* Unicode, by definition. The religious aspects have to do with the old trade-offs the various programmers are already used to, the new trade-offs the various programmers would have to start putting up with, and the various language bigotries people bring to the table. Major premise: everyone is going to have to put up with a non-8-bit wchar_t internally in their applications. This is called the "raw" or "process" representation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Are most of your files in ASCII? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you want UTF7/UTF8/ISO2022 encoding, so you don't have to change them. Unless you plan to export your software. Let the non-English speaking world deal with the incompatabilities and storage bloat problems. You'll deal with it in your software when Japan and Europe "get their act together" and standardize on IBM-PC derived hardware so that your software won't have to be ported to run. Besides, C code is in the "C" locale, and that's US-ASCII already. GCC supports tri-glyphs, right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Are most of your files in ISO8859-X and/or KOI-8X? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you don't want UTF7/UTF8, because if you get them, some characters that currently take up one byte will take up between one and three bytes (one if they are US ASCII, more if they are in the 0x80-0xff range). You also don't want ISO2022, because instead of simply choosing a locale for all your data, you will have to deal with character set shift processing. You could put up with UTF2, because you could do kernel magic to expand existing text files on existing filesystems by setting a per FS attribute that tells how to get the data in and out of Unicode representation. You still need a "magic doohickey" that tells the filesystem to do this for text files, but not for other files. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Are most of your files in ISO2022-jp (JIS-208/JIS-212)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Then you don't want UTF7/UTF8/UTF2 encoding, because you don't want to have to convert your data. You don't want Unicode because it means you'll have to deal with the sorting problem all over again because Unicode's collation sequence isn't the JIS-208/JIS-212 collation sequence. You don't care about all the crap that goes withmultibyte encoding, because you've already dealt with all the bugs that causes in all your existing software already. You don't care about the storage bloat, because you already need as many bytes as the bloat will cause to store the characters in the character sets you use, so it doesn't matter to you that the code produced in other countries will bloat up and start evidencing bugs it didn't used to have before they tried to localize into your locale. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What this boils down to is language bigotry, and whose language you prefer. Generally, the preference is either driven by personal or economic interests (like competitive advantage to your own locale from having your locale's preferred method chosen. The short sighted approach is to make the decision based on your own personal bigotry. The longer sighted approach is to make the decision which has the best workarounds for backward compatability and in-place conversion, and the least impact in the future based on the assumption that the software market is going to normalize all over the world at some point in the future, and you just may be around still and have to deal with it. Like the Y2K problem. Of course, this totally ignores the fact that Microsoft owns the world at the present time, and they've already made the correct long term decision on the assumption that they will be around forever and have to deal with it... another decision based on economic interests, in fact. If the aliens land, and we end up needing more than 2^16 characters in out wchar_t space, well, we can deal with that problem when it happens. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 18:33:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26375 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26348 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15947; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:33:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd015939; Thu Jun 11 18:33:15 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07148; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:33:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806120133.SAA07148@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: kline@tao.thought.org (Gary Kline) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:33:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806120102.SAA13195@tao.thought.org> from "Gary Kline" at Jun 11, 98 06:02:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Or then again, scholarly work is being done increasingly > by computer. I'm familiar with Thais doing translations > from Sanskrit to Thai and Manadarin, for example. What is the ISO character set standard for Linear B? The issues of multinational processing need to be left to the narrow range of applications for multinational processing, and not addressed by the vast majority of applications, which neither know nor care about anything more than a single locale. > If we limit ourselves to the computer-nerd|geek mindset > we are short-circuiting our potential. I don't think so. Nothing suggested prevents the word processor writer from expending the multinationalization effort. I will be entirely happy if my tcsh can only output "Bus Error" in only one of English, Japanese, Chinese, German, etc., at one time. I would prefer that my scrollback buffer be filled with information pertinent to the failure, and not an infinite number of translations of the error message in case I, the viewer, read only some obscure dialect of Urdlu and have been too lazy to tell the computer which language I speak. In general, computer users have a single native language. This is because, in general, humans have a single native language, and the set of computer users and the set of humans are the same set (well, except for CoCo the Gorilla, and she speaks American Sign Language, which, other than the phonetic modifications the the Utah School for the Deaf has been doggedly attempting to introduce, is pretty much stuck as a dialect of English). It would be ridiculous to localize to a "locale" for that one human somewhere who was brought up in a Chinese speaking household in Wiesbattan, Germany, so that we can display errors in the particular Creole that one human speaks. Presuming we can get someone to translate into that Creole, of course. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 18:37:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27134 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:37:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (itojun@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27077 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W/smtpfeed 0.63) with ESMTP id KAA00650; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:37:10 +0900 (JST) To: Terry Lambert cc: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith), junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr, kline@tao.thought.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: tlambert's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:51:13 GMT. <199806112251.PAA29278@usr09.primenet.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:37:10 +0900 Message-ID: <646.897615430@coconut.itojun.org> From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I got too many messages so I respond only to where can't resist to. >My opinions: > >I believe it is an error to use multibyte encodings, as they destroy >important information which is utilized by 8-bit alphabetic programmers >to make user interaction and data storage task drastically less complicated >than they would otherwise be. We got too much computation power already (most of the computers are just waiting for human input, as shown by the success of distributed DES challenge). It is just posible to use multibyte encoding, maybe with some help from library (runelocale for multibyte encoding). The problems are: - there are too many programs that assume character bitwidth is proportional to the width on the screen (this is also harmful for propotional font handling. GUI people already takes care of this) - there are too many programs that assume 8th bit of "char" is availble as flag bit - and more >The Japanese already have to deal with this problem because of their >failure to use the Kana (an alphabetic Japanese that fits comfortably >in 8 bits), so these problems (apparently) don't chafe them like they >chafe us. >The information density of Kanji is drastically higher, and the Japanese >will, arguably, beat the heck out of us in storage density, once they >figure out how to solve the input problem for the normally 20,000 >ideogrammatic characters known to an average Japanese with a PhD. One >of the main reasons Japan doesn't lead the world in software production >and sales right now is their reliance on Kanji. I agree that the man-months are eaten for Kanji processing in Japanese software industry, but I certanly not agree that Japanese should have been moved to Kana-only world. How do you think if you are told to move to 6-letter (yea, A to F) world just to fit letters and digits into 4bits? People should not be forced to fit to information processing tools. Information processing tools must evolve to support the natural thing people wants to perform. Because people got Kanji letters already, we support that. The summary based on "do you store your files in xxx?" was nice :-) itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 19:04:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03235 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03221 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:04:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id LAA00957; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:03:12 +0900 (JST) To: Terry Lambert cc: joy@urc.ac.ru, kline@tao.thought.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: tlambert's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:36:57 GMT. <199806112236.PAA28653@usr09.primenet.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:03:12 +0900 Message-ID: <953.897616992@coconut.itojun.org> From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> Handling bare iso-2022 string is some hard to implement because it >> is variable length (yes I agree). If we can provide a good library >> for iso-2022, then there's no reason for us to migrate to Unicode. >Except that 85% of the computer systems in the world and 90% of the >computers in the Western world are going to be running Unicode by the >year 2010 because of Microsoft Windows and JAVA. By the year 2010 FreeBSD rules the world, as you know :-) >And we would like to be able to interoperate with them without paying >a very high conversion overhead when we do it. I've never wanted people in US to use iso-2022-jp/kr/whatever. If I got 32bit wchar_t, runelocale library can support Unicode encoded data source and iso-2022 (incl. EUC) encoded data source just by setting environment variable LANG. There's also standardizing effort (or it maybe already done, I dunno about the current status) for stateful encodings support with wchar_t, as ANSI C extension standard so this is not just me wanting such as support for runelocale. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 20:09:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14528 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14478 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11581; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:09:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd011560; Thu Jun 11 20:09:06 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11238; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:09:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:09:02 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <646.897615430@coconut.itojun.org> from "Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh" at Jun 12, 98 10:37:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >I believe it is an error to use multibyte encodings, as they destroy > >important information which is utilized by 8-bit alphabetic programmers > >to make user interaction and data storage task drastically less complicated > >than they would otherwise be. > > We got too much computation power already (most of the computers > are just waiting for human input, as shown by the success of > distributed DES challenge). And we should be spending that processing thime on useful work, not on rune processing. Kirk McKusick is often quoted as saying "The number of MIPS delivered the the keyboard has remained constant since 1976". Just because the MIPS are there doesn't mean they should be burned on processing required by an intionally mismatched process and storage encoding. Also note that translations of this type are cache busters. This means that your processing rate will be limited by your memory bus fetch rate (33MHz), not your clock-multiplied CPU speed (400MHz). This is incidently why I think clock multipliers are the worst idea since DOS. > It is just posible to use multibyte > encoding, maybe with some help from library (runelocale for multibyte > encoding). The problems are: > - there are too many programs that assume character bitwidth > is proportional to the width on the screen > (this is also harmful for propotional font handling. GUI people > already takes care of this) Proportional fonts are obnoxious. However, they can be lived with, using "gravity" notation to hang them based on their right end instead of the left end (for English; insert your directional coding and symmetry requirements here). Not assuming that character bitwidth is proportional to storage encoding is a bad idea. It destroys useful information and a number of simplifying assumptions which bear on computational complexity. Being in a multibyte locale, this may not be obvious to you, since using a multibyte locale destroys the same information. The fact that Americans are not in a multibyte locale and can make these simplifying assumptions is one of the competitive advantages of the American and European software industries. I would prefer that the Japanese enjoy the American and European competitive advantage, rather than the Americans and Europeans being forced to suffer the Japanese disadvantage. > - there are too many programs that assume 8th bit of "char" is > availble as flag bit > - and more Most newer software is 8-bit clean. The obvious offendors were SMTP and termcap, both of which have since been corrected. I think this assumption is not widespread. > I agree that the man-months are eaten for Kanji processing in Japanese > software industry, but I certanly not agree that Japanese should > have been moved to Kana-only world. How do you think if you are > told to move to 6-letter (yea, A to F) world just to fit letters > and digits into 4bits? The point is not a reduction in an alphabetic symbol space, as in your A-F example. A switch from Kanji to Kana would not damage the ability to represent any Japanese words; it's a switch from an ideogrammatic to an alphabetic representation. The origins of Kanji as an ideogrammatic writing system owe more to the need for Imperial China to control the availability of persistent information available to Chinese Serfs in support of a feudal society than they do to their information density compared to alphabetic writing systems. > People should not be forced to fit to information processing tools. > Information processing tools must evolve to support the natural thing > people wants to perform. Because people got Kanji letters already, > we support that. U.S. Robotics, the inventors of "Graffiti", might disagree with you. 8-). The "limit English to A through F" argument is really a strawman. The issue I was addressing was the need for a large educational infrastructure, front-loading of language skills, and the inability to phonetically derive words a child knows verbally, but for which the child has not been taught the symbolic representation. For alphabetic languages, even badly pseudo-phonetic languages like English, a child aware of phonics can guess, with a high probability of success, the symbols needed to represent any given spoken word, and thus communicate it persistently. Despite the ill-considered effort the American educational system historically has made to turn clusters of English letters into ideograms. With an ideogrammatic language, the child can not even guess at the correct word. I believe it is common to use Katakana dictionaries to look up Kanji for children in primary language education in Japan... my copy of "Peach boy Momo" has Katakana superscript for new Kanji symbols I wasn't previously exposed to. 8-). I would certainly support switching the English speaking world to a phonetic alphabet, or other synthetic written language with 100% regular rules. It would give us one hell of a competitive advantage, if our kids were to learn to read and write say 2 years earlier on average, while their brains were still highly plastic. In any case, the Japanese problem is not the same. The Japanese problem is "how do I put 20,000 symbols on a keyboard smaller than the largest room in my house?" (that's 200 PC keyboards for us 8-bit alphabetic language using readers). Solving this problem by chording is inefficient, and introduces a third representational geometry that users the language must also learn (tactile). Kanji may have a higher information density, but the absolute information transfer rate from humans to computers is much higher for English, and will be, until the Kanji handwriting recognition problem is fully resolved. > The summary based on "do you store your files in xxx?" was nice :-) Thanks; we're all language bigots at heart. 8-). I support Unicode encoding because it's advantageous to me personally in the long term. It just happens to be advantageous to everyone else in the long term, as well (which is what makes it advantageous to me personally in the long term: I will have a soloution to sell when they come looking for one to buy). I would also like to solve this problem once (and only once) in such away that I can make the maximum number of simplifying assumptions while writing my code (which is the source of my support for the "fixed 16 bit storage" model). I'm willing to double my text data memory and disk footprint now in order to keep from multiplying it by 3, 4, or 5 later because I was too lazy to consider my potential markets desirable when I made the short-sighted decision. Not to mention the conversion overhead going up the longer documents are being created in anything other than the final format I'd have to decide on eventually, anyway. If I have to pay the costs now, I'd rather pay them now. I'm not willing to pay the penalty to fully multinationalize all of my applications, because I fully expect to use COM/DCOM/ActiveX/CORBA objects and object request brokers to access code that someone else has expended effort to multinationalize, if I ever decide I need to support multinational text. Engineers are basically lazy. They will write a 200 line program just to avoid typing the same set of 5 commands another three times, in the expectation they will (maybe) need to type them again. That's where tools like "make" and "lex" and "yacc" come from. It doesn't make sense sometimes, but it tends to benefit the rest of the world in the long run... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 20:55:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21633 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jazz.snu.ac.kr (jazz.snu.ac.kr [147.46.59.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21615 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr) Received: (from junker@localhost) by jazz.snu.ac.kr (8.9.0/8.9.0) id MAA22748; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:49:06 +0900 (KST) To: Mike Smith Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , Gary Kline , tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806111325.GAA01739@antipodes.cdrom.com> From: CHOI Junho Date: 12 Jun 1998 12:49:05 +0900 In-Reply-To: Mike Smith's message of Thu, 11 Jun 1998 06:25:12 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith writes: > If the GNU gettext is GPL'd, using it for i18n work on the base FreeBSD > system would seem to be a pretty bad idea. If we're serious about > doing this "right", we need something that we can integrate entirely. > > Just for reference's sake, what's wrong with the XPG3 support we > currently have (catopen/catclose/catgets)? catopen interface is for native FreeBSD sources(usr.bin or usr.sbin?). I mean the applications using GNU gettext in the ports. -- ----Cool FreeBSD!----MSX Forever!---J.U.N.K.E.R/Beat Snatchers!---- CHOI Junho http://jazz.snu.ac.kr/~junker Distributed Computing System Lab,CS Dept.,Seoul National Univ., ROK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 21:09:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23932 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23882 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id NAA02758; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:07:07 +0900 (JST) To: Terry Lambert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: tlambert's message of Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:09:02 GMT. <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:07:07 +0900 Message-ID: <2754.897624427@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Not assuming that character bitwidth is proportional to storage encoding >is a bad idea. It destroys useful information and a number of simplifying >assumptions which bear on computational complexity. Being in a multibyte >locale, this may not be obvious to you, since using a multibyte locale >destroys the same information. >The fact that Americans are not in a multibyte locale and can make >these simplifying assumptions is one of the competitive advantages of >the American and European software industries. >I would prefer that the Japanese enjoy the American and European >competitive advantage, rather than the Americans and Europeans being >forced to suffer the Japanese disadvantage. Just by supporting Unicode, you can't assume that every wchar_t will be rendered into a fixed-width font. You'll have to use scrwidth() for your curses programming, anyway:-) >> - there are too many programs that assume 8th bit of "char" is >> availble as flag bit >> - and more >Most newer software is 8-bit clean. The obvious offendors were SMTP >and termcap, both of which have since been corrected. I think this >assumption is not widespread. How about regex? Anyway, we have to work for "wchar_t ready" termcap/regex/curses/ whatever. >> I agree that the man-months are eaten for Kanji processing in Japanese >> software industry, but I certanly not agree that Japanese should >> have been moved to Kana-only world. How do you think if you are >> told to move to 6-letter (yea, A to F) world just to fit letters >> and digits into 4bits? >The point is not a reduction in an alphabetic symbol space, as in >your A-F example. >A switch from Kanji to Kana would not damage the ability to represent >any Japanese words; it's a switch from an ideogrammatic to an >alphabetic representation. bzzzz, you are wrong. We Japnaese can't live without Kanji. Kanji is not an extra character sets. Kanji is mandatory character set for us, just like G-Z for you. Believe me, I speak and write Japanese every day :-) The number of kanji used as a daily basis varies by person to person. However, it is clear that current JIS X0208 character set (occupies 94x94 space, has some 6000 or 7000 Kanji letters) is not enough for daily use as it does not even cover the letters used for name, by some people. We learn several thousands of Kanji letters in elementary school. >With an ideogrammatic language, the child can not even guess at the >correct word. I believe it is common to use Katakana dictionaries to >look up Kanji for children in primary language education in Japan... The above is correct. Kana has very tight relationship to its sound and it is very nice. >my copy of "Peach boy Momo" has Katakana superscript for new Kanji >symbols I wasn't previously exposed to. 8-). Oops, you are misunderstanding something... I believe you mean a book by Osamu Hashimoto. Superscript on that book is not a standard sound for those Kanji letters. The author adds some "taste" to his text, by let people read Kanji letters in non-standard manner. It is just like writing "Gimme" for "give me". itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 21:38:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27788 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from waru.life.nthu.edu.tw (frankch@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw [140.114.98.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27735 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from frankch@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw) Received: (from frankch@localhost) by waru.life.nthu.edu.tw (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26507; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:42:45 +0800 (CST) (envelope-from frankch) Message-ID: <19980612124245.33715@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:42:45 +0800 From: Chen Hsiung Chan To: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> <2754.897624427@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=big5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <2754.897624427@coconut.itojun.org>; from Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 01:07:07PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 01:07:07PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh wrote: [deleted] > >The point is not a reduction in an alphabetic symbol space, as in > >your A-F example. > >A switch from Kanji to Kana would not damage the ability to represent > >any Japanese words; it's a switch from an ideogrammatic to an > >alphabetic representation. > > bzzzz, you are wrong. We Japnaese can't live without Kanji. > Kanji is not an extra character sets. Kanji is mandatory > character set for us, just like G-Z for you. Believe me, > I speak and write Japanese every day :-) That's also true for Chinese. We can not live with only phonetic symbols, whether that be bopomofo or pinyin or anything else. -- Chen-Hsiung Chan [¸âÂíºµ](BIG5) Department of Life Science http://waru.life.nthu.edu.tw/~frankch/ National Tsing Hua University email: frankch@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw Taiwan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 21:57:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29741 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:57:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beatrice.rutgers.edu (beatrice.rutgers.edu [165.230.209.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA29715 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from easmith@beatrice.rutgers.edu) Received: (from easmith@localhost) by beatrice.rutgers.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) id AAA11423; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:55:54 -0400 From: "Allen Smith" Message-Id: <9806120055.ZM11421@beatrice.rutgers.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:55:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: Chen Hsiung Chan "Re: internationalization" (Jun 12, 12:42pm) References: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> <2754.897624427@coconut.itojun.org> <19980612124245.33715@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.3 08feb96 MediaMail) To: Chen Hsiung Chan , Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Subject: Re: internationalization Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Jun 12, 12:42pm, Chen Hsiung Chan (possibly) wrote: > On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 01:07:07PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh wrote: > [deleted] > > >The point is not a reduction in an alphabetic symbol space, as in > > >your A-F example. > > >A switch from Kanji to Kana would not damage the ability to represent > > >any Japanese words; it's a switch from an ideogrammatic to an > > >alphabetic representation. > > > > bzzzz, you are wrong. We Japnaese can't live without Kanji. > > Kanji is not an extra character sets. Kanji is mandatory > > character set for us, just like G-Z for you. Believe me, > > I speak and write Japanese every day :-) > > That's also true for Chinese. We can not live with only > phonetic symbols, whether that be bopomofo or pinyin or > anything else. Umm... so Chinese people can't talk to one another? I'd known that was the case between the dialects, but not within them :-}. Now, I'm not claiming that any of the current phonetic representations are necessarily fully usable - for instance, IIRC Chinese is a tonal language, and a phonetic representation that didn't encompass tonalities would be incomplete - but that the space of sounds emitable by the human voice is smaller than the number of Chinese characters, Kanji, etcetera, and people are capable of conversing in Mandarin, Japanese, etcetera vocally. What I would therefore suggest is that whatever standard is used (e.g., Unicode) should contain within it characters for phonetic representation - probably using one of the standard linguist's representations, possibly with expansions where that is inadequate - and this will allow it to represent all non-alphabetic languages that are capable of being spoken. -Allen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 22:30:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03870 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:30:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shire.domestic.de (kuebart.stuttgart.netsurf.de [194.233.216.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03841 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joki@kuebart.stuttgart.netsurf.de) Received: from yacht.domestic.de (yacht.domestic.de [192.168.1.4]) by shire.domestic.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15687 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:29:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from joki@shire.domestic.de) From: Joachim Kuebart Received: (from joki@localhost) by yacht.domestic.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id HAA02023 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:31:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from joki@shire.domestic.de) Message-Id: <199806120531.HAA02023@yacht.domestic.de> Subject: SYM20402 SCSI adaptor with 53C416 chip To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:31:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I'm looking for support for the abovementioned SCSI chip. I don't think there's any in the main trunk. Would CAM solve my problems? cu Jo --------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve Joachim Kuebart Tel: +49 711 653706 Replicants are like any other machine -- Germany they're either a benefit or a hazard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 22:39:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04551 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (winter@sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04535; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06953; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:39:20 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Yonny Cardenas Baron cc: freebsd-tokenring@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers BSD Subject: Re: Run FreeBSD on Token Ring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Yonny Cardenas Baron wrote: > Recompiling kernel with code in http://www.jurai.net/~winter/tr/tr.html, > for SMC TokenCard Elite (ISA/EISA) or IBM 4/16 Shared Memory > cards, I can run FreeBSD on Token Ring ? > > What more I have do ? > > Thanks for your help. Nope. /* Matthew N. Dodd | A memory retaining a love you had for life winter@jurai.net | As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53 */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 23:30:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11819 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from coconut.itojun.org (root@coconut.itojun.org [210.160.95.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11787 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:30:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from itojun@itojun.org) Received: from localhost (itojun@localhost.itojun.org [127.0.0.1]) by coconut.itojun.org (8.8.8+3.0Wbeta12/3.6W) with ESMTP id PAA01627; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:28:42 +0900 (JST) To: "Allen Smith" cc: Chen Hsiung Chan , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: easmith's message of Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:55:54 -0400. <9806120055.ZM11421@beatrice.rutgers.edu> X-Template-Reply-To: itojun@itojun.org X-Template-Return-Receipt-To: itojun@itojun.org X-PGP-Fingerprint: F8 24 B4 2C 8C 98 57 FD 90 5F B4 60 79 54 16 E2 Subject: Re: internationalization From: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:28:42 +0900 Message-ID: <1623.897632922@coconut.itojun.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG this thread is becoming not very suitable for "hackers" so this is my last comment ;-) >> > bzzzz, you are wrong. We Japnaese can't live without Kanji. >> > Kanji is not an extra character sets. Kanji is mandatory >> > character set for us, just like G-Z for you. Believe me, >> > I speak and write Japanese every day :-) >> That's also true for Chinese. We can not live with only >> phonetic symbols, whether that be bopomofo or pinyin or >> anything else. >Umm... so Chinese people can't talk to one another? I'd known that was >the case between the dialects, but not within them :-}. Now, I'm not >claiming that any of the current phonetic representations are >necessarily fully usable - for instance, IIRC Chinese is a tonal >language, and a phonetic representation that didn't encompass >tonalities would be incomplete - but that the space of sounds >emitable by the human voice is smaller than the number of Chinese >characters, Kanji, etcetera, and people are capable of conversing in >Mandarin, Japanese, etcetera vocally. Wow, this is the point. Phonetic expression (and sound itself) has ambiguity in Japanese/Chinese/Korean language. If you hear some sound, you can interpret that in several ways. We resolve the ambiguity by context in spoken Japanese, and by Kanji letters in written Japanese. For example, Japanese sound, "Hashi", can be translated into both "bridge" and "chopsticks". There's slight difference in sound (intonation) which makes those sound distinct. Also, Japanese sound "Saru" can be translated to "monkey (noun)" and "leaving from somewhere (verb)". In this case there's no difference in sound. We make a distinction by context for spoken Japansese, and by Kanji letters in written Japanese. Therefore, if we write "saru" in Kana (phonetic letter), we cannot figure out what these letters mean. This makes it really hard for us to read Kana-only teletype, which were used about 20 years ago. itojun To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 23:47:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15721 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from linux.cca.usart.ru (max@linux.cca.usart.ru [194.226.230.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15670 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from max@cca.usart.ru) Received: from localhost (max@localhost) by linux.cca.usart.ru (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA25316; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:52:12 -0600 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:52:12 -0600 (GMT+6) From: Max Gotlib To: "Brian J. McGovern" cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DIOCWLABEL not supported on vn devices In-Reply-To: <199806111500.LAA29559@spoon.beta.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! While trying to construct MFS-ROOT image for 2.2.6 kernel patched with INRIA's IPv6 package, I've faced with the same problem. While tracing the /usr/src/release sourse branch I discovered "the right way" to perform this operation. The conclusion I've came to is: you can just ignore this message - everything will be done... Strange things, BUT IT WORKS for me... Max. On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Brian J. McGovern wrote: > I was just running through my 'make release' last night, and saw when doFS.sh > was performing a disklabel on a vn device (the boot floppy), it returned the > error: > > ioctl DIOCWLABEL: Operation not supported by device > > Now I understand that the primary purpose of this operation is to load the boot > blocks on to the floppy image. I guess my question is whether this is actually > working, or whether its failing for some strange reason? Comments? > -Brian > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Thu Jun 11 23:53:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16967 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:53:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles357.castles.com [208.214.167.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16954 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:53:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00486; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806120549.WAA00486@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Joachim Kuebart cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SYM20402 SCSI adaptor with 53C416 chip In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:31:43 +0200." <199806120531.HAA02023@yacht.domestic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:49:06 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'm looking for support for the abovementioned SCSI chip. I don't > think there's any in the main trunk. Would CAM solve my problems? No. The 53c4xx family are low-cost low-power derivatives of the 53c80, making them such poor contenders in this day and age that unless you have an embedded application where one is forced on you, support for it would only encourage you to continue beating your head against the wall. If you have a pressing need, you might be able to resuscitate the 'nca' driver to the point where it will work for you. If you're serious about it, a renovation of the driver would be worthwhile. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 00:19:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21919 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jazz.snu.ac.kr (jazz.snu.ac.kr [147.46.59.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21908 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:18:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr) Received: (from junker@localhost) by jazz.snu.ac.kr (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA24465; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:12:39 +0900 (KST) To: Chen Hsiung Chan Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> <2754.897624427@coconut.itojun.org> <19980612124245.33715@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> From: CHOI Junho Date: 12 Jun 1998 16:12:39 +0900 In-Reply-To: Chen Hsiung Chan's message of Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:42:45 +0800 Message-ID: Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chen Hsiung Chan writes: > On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 01:07:07PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh wrote: > [deleted] > > >The point is not a reduction in an alphabetic symbol space, as in > > >your A-F example. > > >A switch from Kanji to Kana would not damage the ability to represent > > >any Japanese words; it's a switch from an ideogrammatic to an > > >alphabetic representation. > > > > bzzzz, you are wrong. We Japnaese can't live without Kanji. > > Kanji is not an extra character sets. Kanji is mandatory > > character set for us, just like G-Z for you. Believe me, > > I speak and write Japanese every day :-) > > That's also true for Chinese. We can not live with only > phonetic symbols, whether that be bopomofo or pinyin or > anything else. That's also true for Korean. :) We are somehow different from Japanese and Chinese, because generally we are using almost only Hangul glyphs in Computers(usually chatting, mail, short articles not serious). But Hanja - aka Kanji in Japanese - is used widely for Office, Newspapers, Books, formal articles, etc. We learned Hanja in middle and high school. CJK people can't live without Hanja|Kanji|Hanzi :) -- ----Cool FreeBSD!----MSX Forever!---J.U.N.K.E.R/Beat Snatchers!---- CHOI Junho http://jazz.snu.ac.kr/~junker Distributed Computing System Lab,CS Dept.,Seoul National Univ., ROK To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 00:45:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27238 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:45:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.KS.co.id (root@ns1.ks.co.id [202.155.16.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27206 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Indrajaya@KS.co.id) Received: from infinity (infinity.teknologi.KS.co.id [10.7.1.230]) by ns1.KS.co.id (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id OAA14624 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:45:32 +0700 (JVT) Message-ID: <199806121448320326.0BAC688F@access1.ks.co.id> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 2.40.40 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:48:32 +0700 From: "I Indrajaya" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Sendmail and Quota Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA27217 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi,.. Could some one tell me how make mail with quota, so that users can only recieve mail until the file /var/mail/[user] reaches the file size limitation. At the mo. I'm using freebsd 2.1.7 and sendmail 8.8.8 Thank You Indrajaya To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 01:39:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA09257 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:39:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA09134 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hans@news.IAEhv.nl) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.8.8/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 12490 on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:38:46 GMT; id IAA12490 efrom: hans; eto: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: by truk.brandinnovators.com (8.8.7/BI96070101) for id KAA00529; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:31:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199806120831.KAA00529@truk.brandinnovators.com> From: hans@brandinnovators.com (Hans Zuidam) Subject: TCP sequence numbers To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:31:56 +0200 (CEST) Cc: cees@news.IAEhv.nl (Cees Lambrechtse) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, For a particularly nasty TCP problem I have with an embedded target I would like to have the ability to always use the same initial sequence number on a particular connection. It would make it easier to compare tcpdump traces. Could someone show where to find the initial sequence number assignment for a specific TCP connection (i.e. target IP address and port number) in the TCP source? Thanks in advance, Hans -- H. Zuidam E-Mail: hans@brandinnovators.com Brand Innovators B.V. P-Mail: P.O. Box 1377 de Pinckart 54 5602 BJ Eindhoven, The Netherlands 5674 CC Nuenen Tel. +31 40 2631134, Fax. +31 40 2831138 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 02:14:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17384 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:14:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au [203.17.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17298 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:13:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au) Received: from mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au ("port 1191"@[139.188.23.1]) by gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-7 #U2695) with ESMTP id <01IY5RM9EUJ40036KJ@gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:12:53 +1000 Received: from gsms01.alcatel.com.au by cim.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-10 #23324) with ESMTP id <01IY5RM0AXB4C2RCSK@cim.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:12:43 +1000 Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by gsms01.alcatel.com.au (8.8.8/8.7.3) id TAA03824 for hackers@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:12:39 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:12:39 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <199806120912.TAA03824@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri Jun 12 10:02:20 1998, I wrote: >I am not aware of any cases where gcc 2.8.1 generates incorrect code. Actually, I should correct that statement: I don't know of any cases where using gcc 2.8.1 to compile C generates incorrect code. There is a cpp mis-feature that interacts with [g]as to generate incorrect string constants. In particular, cpp _does_not_ remove backslash-newline sequences from string constants (and maybe elsewhere as well). This causes problems with the DEVICE_NAMES macro defined in vector.h and used in vector.s. At this time, I don't know of any way to disable this - the only work- around is to use a gcc-2.7.x derived cpp (eg the standard cpp). And, as a side issue, anyone wanting to build shared libraries should check out the patch that David O'Brien wrote in gnu.gcc.bug (Message-ID: <19980521141645.A12507@nuxi.com>) Peter -- Peter Jeremy (VK2PJ) peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Alcatel Australia Limited 41 Mandible St Phone: +61 2 9690 5019 ALEXANDRIA NSW 2015 Fax: +61 2 9690 5247 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 03:12:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02311 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:12:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au [203.17.66.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02149 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 03:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au) Received: from mfg1.cim.alcatel.com.au ("port 1486"@[139.188.23.1]) by gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-7 #U2695) with ESMTP id <01IY5TO2QFC0003A6I@gatekeeper.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:11:37 +1000 Received: from gsms01.alcatel.com.au by cim.alcatel.com.au (PMDF V5.1-10 #U2695) with ESMTP id <01IY5TN5P3YOI3U4I5@cim.alcatel.com.au> for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:10:53 +1000 Received: (from jeremyp@localhost) by gsms01.alcatel.com.au (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA05833 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:11:22 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:11:22 +1000 (EST) From: Peter Jeremy Subject: Configuring PnP soundcard DRQs To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <199806121011.UAA05833@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am having problems getting a Creative (not clone) PnP SB16 to work with with either the Voxware snd or Luigi Rizzo's pcm drivers (with the pnp driver defined in both cases). The machine _does_ have a PnP BIOS (from Award). Using the pcm driver, the card is correctly detected and initialised using the same IO/IRQ/DRQ values as Win'95 reports. Only problem is that no audio comes out :-(. Using xanim, I do get a noise which can be varied with the volume control. I also get lots of "WARNING: rdintr but read DMA inactive!" messages. Using the snd driver, I can get mxv to plau .au files, but xanim is still not behaving. And the sbxvi will not configure. I believe that the problem is caused by the DRQs selected by the SB16: 1 and 3. The IO addresses and IRQs appear sensible. On pre-PnP ISA machines, DRQs 0 to 3 are 8-bit and DRQs 4-7 are 16-bit. The (pre-PnP) SB16 needs both an 8-bit and 16-bit DRQ. I would assume that these statements are also true for PnP machines and cards. Both the snd and pcm drivers are full of code which assumes that one DRQ is <4 and the other is >= 4. I've tried using the Win'95 control panel to manually select what I believe to be sensible DRQs (eg 1 and 5), but it only allows a range of 0..3. The soundcard does appear to work under Win'95 (I haven't checked all the features). I've tried looking through the FAQs, handbook, `The Complete FreeBSD', and the mailing list archives to no avail. Can anyone offer any suggestions. Peter -- Peter Jeremy (VK2PJ) peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Alcatel Australia Limited 41 Mandible St Phone: +61 2 9690 5019 ALEXANDRIA NSW 2015 Fax: +61 2 9690 5247 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 04:43:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA20651 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from labinfo.iet.unipi.it (labinfo.iet.unipi.it [131.114.9.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA20614 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:42:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it) Received: from localhost (luigi@localhost) by labinfo.iet.unipi.it (8.6.5/8.6.5) id MAA24422; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:03:32 +0200 From: Luigi Rizzo Message-Id: <199806121003.MAA24422@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Subject: Re: Configuring PnP soundcard DRQs To: peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au (Peter Jeremy) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:03:32 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806121011.UAA05833@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> from "Peter Jeremy" at Jun 12, 98 08:11:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I am having problems getting a Creative (not clone) PnP SB16 to work > with with either the Voxware snd or Luigi Rizzo's pcm drivers (with ... > Using the pcm driver, the card is correctly detected and initialised > using the same IO/IRQ/DRQ values as Win'95 reports. Only problem is > that no audio comes out :-(. Using xanim, I do get a noise which can > be varied with the volume control. I also get lots of "WARNING: > rdintr but read DMA inactive!" messages. from the rest of the message I assume you have a new "Vibra16X" card, that's why it wants two 8-bit DRQ. There is no documentation available on this card and it is, according to my experience, sufficiently different from the old one to make it hard to support. I suggest to upgrade the /sys/i386/isa/snd directory to what you find at http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/snd980607.tgz , there i have some fixes for the Vibra16X. > I've tried using the Win'95 control panel to manually select what I > believe to be sensible DRQs (eg 1 and 5), but it only allows a range > of 0..3. The soundcard does appear to work under Win'95 (I haven't > checked all the features). BTW: i have no idea if this card can do full duplex at all. Since you have Win95, could you try if it can work in full duplex under windows ? cheers luigi -----------------------------+-------------------------------------- Luigi Rizzo | Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione email: luigi@iet.unipi.it | Universita' di Pisa tel: +39-50-568533 | via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy) fax: +39-50-568522 | http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ _____________________________|______________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 04:58:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22813 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:58:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tyree.iii.co.uk (tyree.iii.co.uk [195.89.149.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA22800 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 04:58:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@iii.co.uk) From: nik@iii.co.uk Received: from carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (carrig.strand.iii.co.uk [192.168.7.25]) by tyree.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17431; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:58:05 +0100 (BST) Received: (from nik@localhost) by carrig.strand.iii.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA09954; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:56:45 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19980612125645.26761@iii.co.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:56:45 +0100 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <646.897615430@coconut.itojun.org> <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <199806120309.UAA11238@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:09:02AM +0000 Organization: interactive investor Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:09:02AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > The origins of Kanji as an ideogrammatic writing system owe more to > the need for Imperial China to control the availability of persistent > information available to Chinese Serfs in support of a feudal society > than they do to their information density compared to alphabetic > writing systems. I have absolutely nothing to add to the discussion, I just want to hold up the above paragraph as a shining example of why I like these mailing lists so much :-) N -- Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 05:25:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27733 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 05:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.4.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27675 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 05:24:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from k.stevenson@louisville.edu) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (ktstev01@homer.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21178; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:24:55 -0400 Received: (from ktstev01@localhost) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13595; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980612082453.C9135@homer.louisville.edu> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:24:53 -0400 From: Keith Stevenson To: I Indrajaya Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota Mail-Followup-To: I Indrajaya , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <199806121448320326.0BAC688F@access1.ks.co.id> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806121448320326.0BAC688F@access1.ks.co.id>; from I Indrajaya on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:48:32PM +0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We (the University of Louisville) use a combination of custom sendmail rules and a perl script. The perl script (which is run from cron) examines all non- privileged mail spools and creates a db file of users who have mail spools larger than a predefined limit. Our sendmail rules examine the db file and reject mail to users listed within it. We've been using this system for several months now on a very large mailserver. If anyone wants to know exactly how I'm doing this, feel free to contact me. I'm not publishing all of the gory details here because this is more of a sendmail issue than a FreeBSD topic. Regards, --Keith Stevenson-- -- Keith Stevenson System Programmer - Data Center Services - University of Louisville k.stevenson@louisville.edu PGP key fingerprint = 4B 29 A8 95 A8 82 EA A2 29 CE 68 DE FC EE B6 A0 On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 02:48:32PM +0700, I Indrajaya wrote: > Hi,.. > > Could some one tell me how make mail with quota, so that users can only recieve mail until the file /var/mail/[user] reaches the file size limitation. > > At the mo. I'm using freebsd 2.1.7 and sendmail 8.8.8 > > Thank You > > Indrajaya > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 06:26:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08530 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.ucb.crimea.ua (relay.ucb.crimea.ua [194.93.177.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08391 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@ucb.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by relay.ucb.crimea.ua (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03165; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:23:03 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Message-ID: <19980612162302.A1419@ucb.crimea.ua> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:23:02 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: Doug White Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Updated section 4.2 of the Formatting Media tutorial Mail-Followup-To: Doug White , hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! The section 4.2 of the Formatting Media tutorial utilizes pax(1). The pax (even with ``-p e'') doesn't preserve file flags. The cp(1) can preserve file flags: mount /dev/wd2 /mnt cp -R -p /usr/home /mnt umount /mnt rm -rf /usr/home/* mount /dev/wd2 /usr/home The section 4.3 contains a minor error The line ccdconfig ccd0 32 0 /dev/sd0c /dev/sd2c /dev/sd2c obviously, should look like ccdconfig ccd0 32 0 /dev/sd0c /dev/sd1c /dev/sd2c Regards, -- Ruslan Ermilov System Administrator ru@ucb.crimea.ua United Commercial Bank +380-652-247647 Simferopol, Crimea 2426679 ICQ Network, UIN To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 06:59:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13350 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA13313 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00998; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id VAA13595; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:51:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806120451.VAA13595@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806120119.SAA06619@usr09.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Jun 12, 98 01:19:28 am" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Cc: joy@urc.ac.ru, itojun@itojun.org, tlambert@primenet.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Terry Lambert: > > Let me pose the same question, a bit more broadly. > > Why cannot we support _both_ the ISO and Unicode > > paradigms? Are these absolutely incompatible systems? > > Is there some kind of ``religious-war''? Or is it > > simply too difficult? > > ISO 10646 code page 0 *is* Unicode, by definition. > > The religious aspects have to do with the old trade-offs the various > programmers are already used to, the new trade-offs the various > programmers would have to start putting up with, and the various > language bigotries people bring to the table. I'm approaching this with relatively little bigotry or other baggage; my bias is against bias itself. That said, I've been around enough decades to realize that virtually everyone carries latent bigotries of some ilk. I'd just rather stay above as much of it as possible here. So far this discussion looks promiising; and thanks here noted to everyone. > > > Major premise: everyone is going to have to put up with a non-8-bit > wchar_t internally in their applications. This is called the "raw" > or "process" representation. This, I not only believe, but agree with. Memory is cheap; disk is cheap; so having character set be a wchar_t (either 16 or 32 bits) is no major obstacle. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Are most of your files in ASCII? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Then you want UTF7/UTF8/ISO2022 encoding, so you don't have to change > them. Unless you plan to export your software. Let the non-English > speaking world deal with the incompatabilities and storage bloat > problems. You'll deal with it in your software when Japan and Europe > "get their act together" and standardize on IBM-PC derived hardware > so that your software won't have to be ported to run. > > Besides, C code is in the "C" locale, and that's US-ASCII already. > GCC supports tri-glyphs, right? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Are most of your files in ISO8859-X and/or KOI-8X? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Then you don't want UTF7/UTF8, because if you get them, some > characters that currently take up one byte will take up between one > and three bytes (one if they are US ASCII, more if they are in the > 0x80-0xff range). > > You also don't want ISO2022, because instead of simply choosing a > locale for all your data, you will have to deal with character set > shift processing. > > You could put up with UTF2, because you could do kernel magic to > expand existing text files on existing filesystems by setting a > per FS attribute that tells how to get the data in and out of > Unicode representation. You still need a "magic doohickey" that > tells the filesystem to do this for text files, but not for other > files. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Are most of your files in ISO2022-jp (JIS-208/JIS-212)? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Then you don't want UTF7/UTF8/UTF2 encoding, because you don't > want to have to convert your data. You don't want Unicode because > it means you'll have to deal with the sorting problem all over > again because Unicode's collation sequence isn't the JIS-208/JIS-212 > collation sequence. > I understand your point, Terry. Over the coming days, weeks, I'll experiment with 16- and 32-bit wide chars, and see how Ito-san's nvi's port works. If his iso-2022 messages are catalogs, that's most of the battle. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What this boils down to is language bigotry, and whose language > you prefer. Generally, the preference is either driven by personal > or economic interests (like competitive advantage to your own locale > from having your locale's preferred method chosen. > > The short sighted approach is to make the decision based on your own > personal bigotry. > > The longer sighted approach is to make the decision which has the > best workarounds for backward compatability and in-place conversion, > and the least impact in the future based on the assumption that the > software market is going to normalize all over the world at some point > in the future, and you just may be around still and have to deal with > it. Like the Y2K problem. By the time the market normalizes we're likely to be dust. Eventually tho, sure. > > > > If the aliens land, and we end up needing more than 2^16 characters > in out wchar_t space, well, we can deal with that problem when it > happens. > I think we already need 32-bit wchar_t's now. For the sake of completeness. ... To be continued. gary > > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 06:59:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13367 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:59:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA13343 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00995; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA13615; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:03:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806120503.WAA13615@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <646.897615430@coconut.itojun.org> from Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh at "Jun 12, 98 10:37:10 am" To: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tp.mail-lists.freebsd-hackers@trumpet.csl.kecl.ntt.co.jp Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh: > > I got too many messages so I respond only to where can't resist to. > I've been planted before one CRT or another going on 17 hours. My wife just called ``T'' so this is where I time-out, gentlemen. gary > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 07:25:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18217 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18190 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elect8 (elect8.jrc.it [139.191.71.152]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5688) with SMTP id QAA23874; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:21:10 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:15:09 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8 Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Gary Kline cc: FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806120451.VAA13595@tao.thought.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Gary Kline wrote: Could someone translate this into a language called English? Some people on this list are non native speakers of English, like myself, and have a 'syntax error' or 'decoding error' on the fragment below. My compliments for your grasp of the English language and my compliments as well to the makers of the dictionary at http://www.leo.org/cgi-bin/dict-search http://dict.leo.org/dict/dictionaries.html If people could restrict themselves to general English language, not slang nor uncommon words and no n dimensional (with n big) sentences, that would be appreciated. Nick P.S.: English German Dutch bigotry die Engstirnigkeit kortzichtigheid ilk die Sorte vorm premise die Voraussetzung de veronderstelling grasp die Auffassungsgabe het begrip > According to Terry Lambert: > > > Let me pose the same question, a bit more broadly. > > > Why cannot we support _both_ the ISO and Unicode > > > paradigms? Are these absolutely incompatible systems? > > > Is there some kind of ``religious-war''? Or is it > > > simply too difficult? > > > > ISO 10646 code page 0 *is* Unicode, by definition. > > > > The religious aspects have to do with the old trade-offs the various > > programmers are already used to, the new trade-offs the various > > programmers would have to start putting up with, and the various > > language bigotries people bring to the table. > > > I'm approaching this with relatively little bigotry or > other baggage; my bias is against bias itself. That said, > I've been around enough decades to realize that virtually > everyone carries latent bigotries of some ilk. I'd just > rather stay above as much of it as possible here. > > So far this discussion looks promiising; and thanks here > noted to everyone. > > > > > > > > Major premise: everyone is going to have to put up with a non-8-bit > > wchar_t internally in their applications. This is called the "raw" > > or "process" representation. > > > This, I not only believe, but agree with. Memory is cheap; > disk is cheap; so having character set be a wchar_t (either > 16 or 32 bits) is no major obstacle. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Are most of your files in ASCII? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Then you want UTF7/UTF8/ISO2022 encoding, so you don't have to change > > them. Unless you plan to export your software. Let the non-English > > speaking world deal with the incompatabilities and storage bloat > > problems. You'll deal with it in your software when Japan and Europe > > "get their act together" and standardize on IBM-PC derived hardware > > so that your software won't have to be ported to run. > > > > Besides, C code is in the "C" locale, and that's US-ASCII already. > > GCC supports tri-glyphs, right? > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Are most of your files in ISO8859-X and/or KOI-8X? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Then you don't want UTF7/UTF8, because if you get them, some > > characters that currently take up one byte will take up between one > > and three bytes (one if they are US ASCII, more if they are in the > > 0x80-0xff range). > > > > You also don't want ISO2022, because instead of simply choosing a > > locale for all your data, you will have to deal with character set > > shift processing. > > > > You could put up with UTF2, because you could do kernel magic to > > expand existing text files on existing filesystems by setting a > > per FS attribute that tells how to get the data in and out of > > Unicode representation. You still need a "magic doohickey" that > > tells the filesystem to do this for text files, but not for other > > files. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Are most of your files in ISO2022-jp (JIS-208/JIS-212)? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Then you don't want UTF7/UTF8/UTF2 encoding, because you don't > > want to have to convert your data. You don't want Unicode because > > it means you'll have to deal with the sorting problem all over > > again because Unicode's collation sequence isn't the JIS-208/JIS-212 > > collation sequence. > > > > I understand your point, Terry. Over the coming days, > weeks, I'll experiment with 16- and 32-bit wide chars, > and see how Ito-san's nvi's port works. If his iso-2022 > messages are catalogs, that's most of the battle. > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > What this boils down to is language bigotry, and whose language > > you prefer. Generally, the preference is either driven by personal > > or economic interests (like competitive advantage to your own locale > > from having your locale's preferred method chosen. > > > > The short sighted approach is to make the decision based on your own > > personal bigotry. > > > > The longer sighted approach is to make the decision which has the > > best workarounds for backward compatability and in-place conversion, > > and the least impact in the future based on the assumption that the > > software market is going to normalize all over the world at some point > > in the future, and you just may be around still and have to deal with > > it. Like the Y2K problem. > > > By the time the market normalizes we're likely to be dust. > Eventually tho, sure. > > > > > > > > > If the aliens land, and we end up needing more than 2^16 characters > > in out wchar_t space, well, we can deal with that problem when it > > happens. > > > > I think we already need 32-bit wchar_t's now. For the sake > of completeness. ... To be continued. > > gary > > > > > > > > -- > Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > STA-ISIS, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, Italy building: 27A tel.: +39 332 78 9549 fax.: +39 332 78 9185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 07:39:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21502 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:39:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21460 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:39:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp@austin.polstra.com) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11334; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdp) Message-Id: <199806121439.HAA11334@austin.polstra.com> To: hans@brandinnovators.com Subject: Re: TCP sequence numbers In-Reply-To: <199806120831.KAA00529@truk.brandinnovators.com> References: <199806120831.KAA00529@truk.brandinnovators.com> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:39:28 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <199806120831.KAA00529@truk.brandinnovators.com>, Hans Zuidam wrote: > For a particularly nasty TCP problem I have with an embedded target > I would like to have the ability to always use the same initial > sequence number on a particular connection. It would make it easier > to compare tcpdump traces. Are you sure? Tcpdump prints TCP sequence numbers in relative form, relative to the initial one, unless you give it the "-S" option. Your traces should match already, except for the initial packet from each side. -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 08:12:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27686 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:12:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27664 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15230; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:12:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd015154; Fri Jun 12 08:11:51 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA08464; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:11:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806121511.IAA08464@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: frankch@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw (Chen Hsiung Chan) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:11:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: itojun@iijlab.net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980612124245.33715@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> from "Chen Hsiung Chan" at Jun 12, 98 12:42:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >The point is not a reduction in an alphabetic symbol space, as in > > >your A-F example. > > >A switch from Kanji to Kana would not damage the ability to represent > > >any Japanese words; it's a switch from an ideogrammatic to an > > >alphabetic representation. > > > > bzzzz, you are wrong. We Japnaese can't live without Kanji. > > Kanji is not an extra character sets. Kanji is mandatory > > character set for us, just like G-Z for you. Believe me, > > I speak and write Japanese every day :-) > > That's also true for Chinese. We can not live with only > phonetic symbols, whether that be bopomofo or pinyin or > anything else. This is still not valid for the A-F example. What you are complaining about is not the lack of symbols, but the lack of diacritical markings; the use of "radicals" in Kanji servers the equivalent purpose. An English analogy is the meter in poetry, which can not be represented without invented diacritical marks: - | - | - | - | The boy stood on the burning deck - | - | - | | His feet were full of blisters Alternately, you can use dipthongs (such as the "ae" in "Gilbrae") to make written kana/bopomofo/pinyan pseudo phonetic, like English. I would discourage this, for reasons previously stated, and use the less intrusive punctuational methods. For example, in written Romaji, vowel extension is generally done via hyphenated repetition: oba-san oba-a-san Romanized Chinese requires syllabic hypenation and intonational markings: / - _ Ni-hou-ma ie: it's possible to do. Definition of diacritics is (obviously, from my examples of Western markup schemas 8-)) better left to native speakers to decide. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 08:52:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04950 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04687 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rivers@dignus.com) Received: from dignus.com (ponds.vnet.net [166.82.177.48]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA22282 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lakes.dignus.com (lakes [10.0.0.3]) by dignus.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA12996 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rivers@localhost) by lakes.dignus.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) id JAA08199 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:16:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas David Rivers Message-Id: <199806121316.JAA08199@lakes.dignus.com> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BYTE & LINUX vs. FreeBSD. Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Perhaps this should go into freebsd-chat; but I thought the -hackers audience would be more germain. Anyway, I got this month's small edition of BYTE - with the notice that it will be the last edition for some months. Unfortunately, likely due to hasty/last-minute edits - the "What's coming next month" box (i.e. what to expect in the now-not-coming August edition) remained. There was an interesting article coming up; something along the lines of FreeBSD vs. LINUX. Does anyone know the details of this article - is there something we could get access to? - Thanks - - Dave Rivers - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 09:22:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12998 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:22:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from avrasya.ispro.net.tr (avrasya.ispro.net.tr [195.174.18.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12757 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:21:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yurtesen@ispro.net.tr) Received: from localhost (yurtesen@localhost) by avrasya.ispro.net.tr (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA30129 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:28:21 +0300 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:28:21 +0300 (EET DST) From: Evren Yurtesen To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: hello Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hello I have a so serious problem... my /var/mail directory is nearly full... and I do not know what to do, also I do not want to change the current hard drive with a newer one, I just want to add a new drive... how may I tell sendmail to have some users' emails to store to the new disk??? thank you Evren +--------------------------------------------------------+ | Name : Evren Yurtesen - yurtesen@ispro.net.tr | | S-mail: Mithatpasa Cad. No:1079/13 35290 Guzelyali | | Home:+90-232-2857604 Work:+90-232-2463992 Izmir/TURKEY | +--------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 09:28:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14341 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14221 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11993; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:28:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd011973; Fri Jun 12 09:27:59 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09298; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:27:50 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806121627.JAA09298@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota To: Indrajaya@KS.co.id (I Indrajaya) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:27:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806121448320326.0BAC688F@access1.ks.co.id> from "I Indrajaya" at Jun 12, 98 02:48:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Could some one tell me how make mail with quota, so that users can > only recieve mail until the file /var/mail/[user] reaches the file > size limitation. > > At the mo. I'm using freebsd 2.1.7 and sendmail 8.8.8 Install a mail server whose delivery module can enforce quotas. I specifically recommend the "Cyrus" IMAP4/POP3 server, which comes with a program "deliver" that allows you to set quotas on a per user basis. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 09:35:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15974 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:35:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15744 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:34:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20387; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:34:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd020317; Fri Jun 12 09:34:35 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09705; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:34:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806121634.JAA09705@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: hello To: yurtesen@ispro.net.tr (Evren Yurtesen) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:34:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Evren Yurtesen" at Jun 12, 98 08:28:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have a so serious problem... > my /var/mail directory is nearly full... > and I do not know what to do, also I do not want to > change the current hard drive with a newer one, I just want to > add a new drive... > how may I tell sendmail to have some users' emails to store > to the new disk??? One of the sample maps distributed with AMD places mail files in user's home directories. This may be one soloution. You could also specify a map that moved only specific users mailboxes to a different directory, ie: # cd /var # mv mail real_mail # mkdir mail Then start AMD with a map for /var/mail as a mount point, with some users mapped from /var/mail/xxx to /var/real_mail/xxx, and others to /new_disk/mail/yyy. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 09:46:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18972 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18887 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id JAA12585; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bubba.whistle.com(207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V1.3) id sma012581; Fri Jun 12 09:45:36 1998 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA21255; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199806121645.JAA21255@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: SKIP for FreeBSD if you are not in the US In-Reply-To: <358033EB.76AA3F80@pipeline.ch> from IBS / Andre Oppermann at "Jun 11, 98 09:45:47 pm" To: andre@pipeline.ch (IBS / Andre Oppermann) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG IBS / Andre Oppermann writes: > Have found the SKIP sources for FreeBSD on this server in the > Netherlands: > > ftp://ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/crypto/crypto/APPS/skip/skipsrc-1.0.tar.Z > > It's kinda slow but you have no choice outside of the US. > > Archie: Can you integrate that into the port? Hmm.. looks like the NSA has already firebombed it.. I can't even ping. $ traceroute ftp.hacktic.nl [ ... ] 9 188.ATM11-0-0.GW2.NYC4.ALTER.NET (146.188.178.141) 65.283 ms 64.773 ms 77.108 ms 10 newyork1.att-unisource.net (157.130.8.2) 65.748 ms 65.162 ms 65.697 ms 11 amsterdam3.att-unisource.net (195.206.65.57) 159.115 ms 153.468 ms 152.984 ms 12 ccr01.asd-dr.unisrc.net (195.206.65.170) 181.741 ms 144.277 ms 145.636 ms 13 par10.asd-kl.unisrc.net (194.151.0.6) 148.771 ms 145.805 ms 146.297 ms 14 XS4ALLISUH101.unisrc.net (194.151.250.66) 201.407 ms 174.725 ms 176.681 ms 15 speed.xs4all.net (194.109.7.77) 173.013 ms 156.631 ms 156.327 ms 16 * * * 17 * * * -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 09:53:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20528 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bangkok.office.cdsnet.net (bangkok.office.cdsnet.net [204.118.245.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20454 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:52:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cts@bangkok.office.cdsnet.net) Received: (from cts@localhost) by bangkok.office.cdsnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id JAA14959; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806121651.JAA14959@bangkok.office.cdsnet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Craig Spannring To: "I Indrajaya" Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota In-Reply-To: <199806121448320326.0BAC688F@access1.ks.co.id> References: <199806121448320326.0BAC688F@access1.ks.co.id> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under Emacs 20.2.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG qmail does a good job of this and is easier to understand to boot. See http://www.qmail.org -- ======================================================================= Life is short. | Craig Spannring Ski hard, Bike fast. | cts@internetcds.com --------------------------------+------------------------------------ Any sufficiently perverted technology is indistinguishable from Perl. ======================================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 10:10:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23334 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:10:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23086 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id TAA24719; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:04:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id GAA23990; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:44:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980612064449.A23986@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 06:44:49 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: Vladimir Kushnir Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD ELF status? Mail-Followup-To: Vladimir Kushnir , hackers@freebsd.org References: <19971229234514.54134@keltia.freenix.fr> <199712301405.PAA03533@zed.ludd.luth.se> <19971230162350.28393@keltia.freenix.fr> <199712311725.JAA20023@austin.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <199712311725.JAA20023@austin.polstra.com>; from John Polstra on Wed, Dec 31, 1997 at 09:25:41AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4374 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Vladimir Kushnir: > Have you also got working ELF bootloader? If so, would you mind pointing > me to where it is? (Yes, I know there was post on -current list, but it > points to freefall, and I've no access there). Here is an old message from John: According to John Polstra: > In article <19971230162350.28393@keltia.freenix.fr>, > Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > Where can one find ELF aware boot blocks ? > > There are some old ones at: > > ftp://ftp.polstra.com/pub/FreeBSD/elfboot/ > > I'm too busy to help people with them right now, so ... use them at > your own risk and don't bug me. :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 10:29:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26366 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA26341 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:29:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 17056 invoked by uid 1017); 12 Jun 1998 16:26:19 -0000 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:26:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: Terry Lambert cc: Evren Yurtesen , freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hello In-Reply-To: <199806121634.JAA09705@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I have a so serious problem... > > my /var/mail directory is nearly full... > > and I do not know what to do, also I do not want to > > change the current hard drive with a newer one, I just want to > > add a new drive... > > how may I tell sendmail to have some users' emails to store > > to the new disk??? Install qmail. Set up qmail to deliver to user's home directories (as long as the are on local (non-NFS) disks). You'll need to add a special case for the user "root". Then: bash# cd /var/mail bash# for i in *; do > export USERHOME=`finger $i |grep home| head -1| awk '{print $2}'` > echo -n "Copying mail for user $i to $USERHOME/Mailbox... " > cp $i $USERHOME/Mailbox > chown $i $USERHOME/Mailbox > chmod 600 $i $USERHOME/Mailbox > echo "Done" > done Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 10:34:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27135 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27042 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id NAA12865 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:34:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Applixware anywhere?? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone used applixware anywhere the 100% java version. Im trying to find out if I get a copy if I can run it on a FreeBSD with the jdk, and have it on a shared drive space mounted to a PC/FreeBSD and a Mac and have them both use it as their office suite so they can share files using netscape to load it. I loaded their demo voer my ppp link yesterday :) It looked OK. Enough to get work done. And If I can run it on the FreeBSD server and let the mac and other FreeBSD box use it with their web browsers that would REALLY be helpfull. The biggest problem ive got is file format's for shared documents. So im hoping someone has done something like this with applixware anywhere. Ive tried calling their sales rep's, and there never there :) Thanks for any info! Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 10:39:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27904 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:39:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27855 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16756; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:39:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016726; Fri Jun 12 10:38:54 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA13739; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:38:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806121738.KAA13739@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: nick.hibma@jrc.it Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:38:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: kline@tao.thought.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Nick Hibma" at Jun 12, 98 04:15:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Could someone translate this into a language called English? Some people > on this list are non native speakers of English, like myself, and have > a 'syntax error' or 'decoding error' on the fragment below. If you could give a specific fragment, I could "translate" it for you; the "fragment" you attached was rather large: a whole message. A translation would be too large for this list, especially given the fact that it would be a repost of the same information, and that the information itself is dangerously close to being off topic, like this post. 8-). > If people could restrict themselves to general English language, not > slang nor uncommon words and no n dimensional (with n big) sentences, > that would be appreciated. Discussions of highly technical issues require *precise* language. This is why all highly technical fields develop their own jargon. Most computer scientists couldn't tell you how an Adson-Toennis scissors differs from a Barraquer corneoscleral scissors, or why autologous transplants don't require antirejection drugs, etc.. It's possible to be precise in retrograde ("High School") English, but it takes a lot more words to get the same meaning. I'm willing to provide retrograde English "translations" if requested, but I think it should be done in private email, not on the lists. For comparison, consider someone wanting/usr/src/sys/i386/i386/locore.s be written in C instead of 386 assembly so that more people could understand it. It could probably be done, with a small number of inlines, but it would not be very efficient to do it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 10:46:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29406 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:46:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from osiris.staff.udg.mx (leonf@[148.202.3.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29274 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:46:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from leonf@osiris.staff.udg.mx) Received: (from leonf@localhost) by osiris.staff.udg.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05551 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:45:45 GMT From: "Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR" Message-Id: <9806121245.ZM5549@osiris.staff.udg.mx> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:45:39 -0700 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Try procmail To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 11:15:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06324 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06298 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:14:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elect8 (elect8.jrc.it [139.191.71.152]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5688) with SMTP id UAA28712; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:14:33 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:08:30 +0200 (MET DST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elect8 Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: Terry Lambert cc: FreeBSD hackers mailing list Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <199806121738.KAA13739@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Could someone translate this into a language called English? Some people > > on this list are non native speakers of English, like myself, and have > > a 'syntax error' or 'decoding error' on the fragment below. > > If you could give a specific fragment, I could "translate" it for > you; the "fragment" you attached was rather large: a whole message. No thanks, my English is well^H^H^H^Hgood enough. :) > A translation would be too large for this list, especially given > the fact that it would be a repost of the same information, and that > the information itself is dangerously close to being off topic, > like this post. 8-). Oh well, let's climb the barricades then. > Discussions of highly technical issues require *precise* language. > This is why all highly technical fields develop their own jargon. Highly technical, as in: ilk, bigotry, premise? :-) Nope, that was an excursion into the land of poetry and was definitely not within the jargon of the topic being discussed. I was referring to 'some ilk' vs. 'some sort' (fancy language) rather than "Why cannot we support _both_ the ISO and Unicode paradigms." (jargon) A small child will have no difficulty with the Dutch phrase 'Save File' to save a file, it is appropriately used 'jargon'. Some people, Microsoft for example make the mistake of translating this into 'Bestand Opslaan', which makes it incomprehensible for me _and_ changes the keyboard shortcut. This change moves the language away from jargon and makes life more difficult (for me). Using jargon improves the readability as you say. > For comparison, consider someone wanting/usr/src/sys/i386/i386/locore.s > be written in C instead of 386 assembly so that more people could > understand it. It could probably be done, with a small number of > inlines, but it would not be very efficient to do it. Another example: writing Apache in C++. But, let's stop the thread before someone finds a way to attach a hammer object that just knows how to hit you to an e-mail. Nick Hibma P.S.: It's Feierabend. I go for a gin&tonic. STA-ISIS, T.P.270, Joint Research Centre, Italy building: 27A tel.: +39 332 78 9549 fax.: +39 332 78 9185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 12:30:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18959 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ranma.nectar.com (c019.n.communique.net [204.27.67.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18745 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@ranma.nectar.com) Received: from ranma.nectar.com (localhost.communique.net [127.0.0.1]) by ranma.nectar.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13445; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:05:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806121905.OAA13445@ranma.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x094724A9 From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <199806121627.JAA09298@usr02.primenet.com> References: <199806121627.JAA09298@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota To: Terry Lambert cc: Indrajaya@KS.co.id (I Indrajaya), hackers@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:05:27 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Note that in normal operation, ``over quota'' is treated as a temporary failure (meaning it stays in queue until it can be delivered). If you have lots of mailboxes with lots of newbie users who subscribe to every mailing list in existance and then don't check mail for months at a time, this is a problem. It is trivial to patch sendmail's sysexits.h with a new return code, such as EX_QUOTA, and use that return code in `deliver' for over quota conditions. You can then handle EX_QUOTA as a temporary or a permanent error, as you wish. Jacques Vidrine On 12 June 1998 at 16:27, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Could some one tell me how make mail with quota, so that users can > > only recieve mail until the file /var/mail/[user] reaches the file > > size limitation. > > > > At the mo. I'm using freebsd 2.1.7 and sendmail 8.8.8 > > Install a mail server whose delivery module can enforce quotas. > > I specifically recommend the "Cyrus" IMAP4/POP3 server, which > comes with a program "deliver" that allows you to set quotas on > a per user basis. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNYF79jeRhT8JRySpAQER2gP+LYlzlRTRrG6MBBaR3xEW0ugeG1d7koiP Qqop1gtGTrSmOcJns8TuFZAWDHtFDkw3/p3uoqiUk3DjtOCcyHxMhTCTwWJbHSoj HsaW50J7r+txaDLYmV7LULzglj70P+YH2h4D9ugH6eiKf9/JTr31uQ4bpDECmIXn E43c1z70Z+E= =xAWo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 12:48:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27110 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ve7tcp.ampr.org (ve7tcp.ampr.org [198.161.92.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27062 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:48:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org) Received: from ve7tcp.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by ve7tcp.ampr.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA19181; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:47:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806121947.NAA19181@ve7tcp.ampr.org> To: Jacques Vidrine cc: tlambert@primenet.com, Indrajaya@KS.co.id, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:05:27 CDT." <199806121905.OAA13445@ranma.nectar.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:47:29 -0600 From: Lyndon Nerenberg Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jacques> It is trivial to patch sendmail's sysexits.h with a new Jacques> return code, such as EX_QUOTA, and use that return code Jacques> in `deliver' for over quota conditions. You can then Jacques> handle EX_QUOTA as a temporary or a permanent error, as Jacques> you wish. Even easier is to have sendmail use LMTP to talk to deliver, in which case deliver returns a 4XX code to sendmail in an overquota condition. No code hacking required (plus you get the other benefits of using LMTP with Cyrus). --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 13:11:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02511 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ntu-kpi.kiev.ua (vovik@ntu-kpi.kiev.ua [195.178.136.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02363 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:11:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vovik@ntu-kpi.kiev.ua) Received: (from vovik@localhost) by ntu-kpi.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.7.3) id XAA07718; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:09:32 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <19980612230931.49179@NTU-KPI.Kiev.UA> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:09:31 +0300 From: "Vladimir A. Jakovenko" To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: getty issue file Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! I found some possible "typos" in FreeBSD getty implementation, and whant ask: is it possible to fix it? Generally, I need to load russian fonts into DEC VT420/DEC VT240 terminals. After looking at gettytab(5) I found the easiest way -- use the "if" (issue file) tag, because getty cat it to terminal when terminal comming up. According to /usr/src/libexec/getty/main.c getty uses function getline() for reading an issue file. And this function allocates only 512 bytes buffer for issue file. But in our case, russian fonts need about 1727 bytes. Also I found a currios comment in function getline (line 682): /* * This is certainly slow, but it avoids having to include * stdio.h unnecessarily. Issue files should be small anyway. */ The easiest way should be add stat() call and dynamically allocate buffer, or at least increase size of default static buffer from 512 to something like 2048. But I don't know that using "if" tag is the right way to load fonts. May be for some reasons issue file must be no more then 512 bytes long? -- Regards, Vladimir. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 13:49:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10652 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ranma.nectar.com (c019.n.communique.net [204.27.67.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10597 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:49:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@ranma.nectar.com) Received: from ranma.nectar.com (localhost.communique.net [127.0.0.1]) by ranma.nectar.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22673; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:44:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806122044.PAA22673@ranma.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x094724A9 From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <199806121947.NAA19181@ve7tcp.ampr.org> References: <199806121947.NAA19181@ve7tcp.ampr.org> Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota To: Lyndon Nerenberg cc: tlambert@primenet.com, Indrajaya@KS.co.id, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:44:25 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I wasn't aware of LMTP. Can you provide references? I prefer no patches even to trivial patches ;-) Jacques Vidrine On 12 June 1998 at 13:47, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > Jacques> It is trivial to patch sendmail's sysexits.h with a new > Jacques> return code, such as EX_QUOTA, and use that return code > Jacques> in `deliver' for over quota conditions. You can then > Jacques> handle EX_QUOTA as a temporary or a permanent error, as > Jacques> you wish. > > Even easier is to have sendmail use LMTP to talk to deliver, in which > case deliver returns a 4XX code to sendmail in an overquota condition. > No code hacking required (plus you get the other benefits of using > LMTP with Cyrus). > > --lyndon > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNYGTKTeRhT8JRySpAQFBzgQAnwSlLyYYHVi/r0BOJuLWTzpeE1Q9ZKxK t+F6Euqmme7eney7eKgkLp/y60Yexitodw1yAqmm2bTlcZ7s6ZGf/zWOPzhZuurO 6MvjXQ6WhzwD2hfC0BYPPX//q61vlXvIlW5sN3h0yzblOHxfQJ5ZZVQcPmJwBJUy WD2gAiEB5u4= =A1MY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 14:34:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20338 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:34:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tim.xenologics.com (tim.xenologics.com [194.77.5.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20104 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:33:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seggers@semyam.dinoco.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tim.xenologics.com (8.8.5/8.8.8) with UUCP id XAA20767 for freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:31:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by semyam.dinoco.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25486; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:29:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from seggers@semyam.dinoco.de) Message-Id: <199806122129.XAA25486@semyam.dinoco.de> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:42:45 +0800." <19980612124245.33715@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw> Cc: seggers@semyam.dinoco.de Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 23:29:34 +0200 From: Stefan Eggers Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >A switch from Kanji to Kana would not damage the ability to represent > > >any Japanese words; it's a switch from an ideogrammatic to an > > >alphabetic representation. At this point I was imaging someone suggesting it the other way round to English speaking people. ;-) Even assuming it would be advantage- ous in the long run for some good reason (lets assume this reason does exist) a complete switch will be at least a long, long time away because people don't want to give up the old way of using their own language. Guess why the "Rechtschreibreform" (where there are some rather small changes to the writing taught in school) gets so much opposition in Germany. The old version probably won't die before the last person who learned it dies. And your suggestion is even more extreme than just changing the spelling of a few words. > > bzzzz, you are wrong. We Japnaese can't live without Kanji. > > Kanji is not an extra character sets. Kanji is mandatory > That's also true for Chinese. We can not live with only > phonetic symbols, whether that be bopomofo or pinyin or Would be very hard to read for me with the ambiguities. It's hard enough to learn reading it with Chinese characters. :-( Anyway, as long as there are good and easy to use converters from the representation FreeBSD uses from and to Big5, GB, ISO 2022, Unicode and others in the base system and the complete system (including syscons/pcvt) gets converted I think I can live with the result. For practical reasons I'd prefer a fixed length of a character. The software has to be written and modified by someone and for most of the FreeBSD system software and ports collections this is people who use ISO 646, ISO 8859 and KIOR-8. If they have to take into account variable length characters it might scare some of them away and those not scared have to deal with additional complexity. Stefan. -- Stefan Eggers Lu4 yao2 zhi1 ma3 li4, Max-Slevogt-Str. 1 ri4 jiu3 jian4 ren2 xin1. 51109 Koeln Federal Republic of Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 14:58:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24349 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:58:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24276 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22501; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:57:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022463; Fri Jun 12 14:57:38 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA20184; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:57:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806122157.OAA20184@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: getty issue file To: vovik@ntu-kpi.kiev.ua (Vladimir A. Jakovenko) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:57:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980612230931.49179@NTU-KPI.Kiev.UA> from "Vladimir A. Jakovenko" at Jun 12, 98 11:09:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Generally, I need to load russian fonts into DEC VT420/DEC VT240 > terminals. After looking at gettytab(5) I found the easiest way > -- use the "if" (issue file) tag, because getty cat it to terminal > when terminal comming up. We used to download and select sixel fonts on vt220, vt320, and vt420 hardware. We used the "rf" (reset file) or "if" (initialization file) attributes to specify a file with a sixel font image, complete with escape sequences, to send to the terminal. Then we used the standard "reset" variant of "tset" to get the font out there: eval `reset -s vt320-russian` (for example). If you insist on using getty to do the work (a bad idea, since it makes the terminal russian instead of the login account), as long as you didn't run more than 512 characters between newlines, it's not an problem. This means you needs to ensure the terminal is in the base state before doing the newline. This is relatively easy to do, and won't damage the ability to download the sixel based character sets. You *will* have to deal with a number-of-characters-in-the-sixel-set lines of CRLF, however... I prefer the tset method (for the obvious reasons). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 15:06:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26433 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26344 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:05:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22665; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:05:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd022641; Fri Jun 12 15:05:23 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20631; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:05:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806122205.PAA20631@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: seggers@semyam.dinoco.de (Stefan Eggers) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:05:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, seggers@semyam.dinoco.de In-Reply-To: <199806122129.XAA25486@semyam.dinoco.de> from "Stefan Eggers" at Jun 12, 98 11:29:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Anyway, as long as there are good and easy to use converters from the > representation FreeBSD uses from and to Big5, GB, ISO 2022, Unicode > and others in the base system and the complete system (including > syscons/pcvt) gets converted I think I can live with the result. Shift encoding, such as ISO 2022 uses, requires the use of a state machine to convert. Or even use in the first place. This is one of the major objections to it, since I could "shift in" ISO 10646 and be done with it. > For practical reasons I'd prefer a fixed length of a character. The > software has to be written and modified by someone and for most of the > FreeBSD system software and ports collections this is people who use > ISO 646, ISO 8859 and KIOR-8. If they have to take into account > variable length characters it might scare some of them away and those > not scared have to deal with additional complexity. Actually, the ports maintainer is Japanese. 8-). My other objection, to the use of a 32 bit instead of a 16 bit wchar_t, is not based on memory and disk footprint. My objection is based on the fact that Unicode supports byte order determination for a two byte encoding, ISO 10646 doesn't support byte order and word order determination for a four byte encoding. So while I can select an ISO 10646 character set using ISO 2022, I can't write interoperable software using it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 15:17:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28493 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:17:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whqvax.picker.com (whqvax.picker.com [144.54.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA28377; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rhh@ct.picker.com) Received: from ct.picker.com by whqvax.picker.com with SMTP; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from elmer.ct.picker.com by ct.picker.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23843; Fri, 12 Jun 98 18:15:50 EDT Received: by elmer.ct.picker.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA29469; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:15:40 -0400 Message-Id: <19980612181540.C29182@ct.picker.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:15:40 -0400 From: Randall Hopper To: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X-10 Mouse Remote patch Mail-Followup-To: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980601194116.A25497@ct.picker.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980601194116.A25497@ct.picker.com>; from Randall Hopper on Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 07:41:16PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | http://multiverse.com/~rhh/moused.x10remote.patch.gz Hey Amancio. Just browsing my cvs list mail and I didn't see the X-10 commit go through yet. Do you think you could do this when you get a few minutes? Thanks, Randall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 15:40:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03637 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:40:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from swift.physics.wisc.edu (swift.physics.wisc.edu [128.104.222.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA03438 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kauer@pheno.physics.wisc.edu) Received: by swift.physics.wisc.edu; id AA05702; 5.65v3.2/42; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:40:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:40:04 -0500 From: Nikolas Kauer Message-Id: <9806122240.AA05702@swift.physics.wisc.edu> To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ld's trace option Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, I want to check out how the linker resolves a certain symbol. I tried to use ld's option -y, however it didn't print any information to stdout or stderr. Does anybody know how this works? Maybe there is a better way to do this ... Any hints are appreciated! Nikolas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 15:55:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06151 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nanguo.chalmers.com.au (gateway.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06129 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:54:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@chalmers.com.au) Received: from chalmers.com.au (carbon.chalmers.com.au [203.1.96.26]) by nanguo.chalmers.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14965; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 08:53:22 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <3581B3D6.8DB56D38@chalmers.com.au> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:03:50 +1000 From: Robert Chalmers Reply-To: robert@chalmers.com.au Organization: chalmers.com.au X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Archie Cobbs CC: IBS / Andre Oppermann , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SKIP for FreeBSD if you are not in the US References: <199806121645.JAA21255@bubba.whistle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Try these sites: http://www.sw.com.sg/Download/unix/security/skip/ http://www.sw.ru/Archive/security/skip/ http://ftp.task.gda.pl/pub/security/crypto/CRYPTOapps/skip/ http://skip.incog.com/BUILD http://www.sw.ru/Archive/security/ls-lR And now for the 64k question... what does SKIP actually do? bob Archie Cobbs wrote: > > IBS / Andre Oppermann writes: > > Have found the SKIP sources for FreeBSD on this server in the > > Netherlands: > > > > ftp://ftp.hacktic.nl/pub/crypto/crypto/APPS/skip/skipsrc-1.0.tar.Z > > > > It's kinda slow but you have no choice outside of the US. > > > > Archie: Can you integrate that into the port? > > Hmm.. looks like the NSA has already firebombed it.. I can't even ping. > > $ traceroute ftp.hacktic.nl > > [ ... ] > > 9 188.ATM11-0-0.GW2.NYC4.ALTER.NET (146.188.178.141) 65.283 ms 64.773 ms 77.108 ms > 10 newyork1.att-unisource.net (157.130.8.2) 65.748 ms 65.162 ms 65.697 ms > 11 amsterdam3.att-unisource.net (195.206.65.57) 159.115 ms 153.468 ms 152.984 ms > 12 ccr01.asd-dr.unisrc.net (195.206.65.170) 181.741 ms 144.277 ms 145.636 ms > 13 par10.asd-kl.unisrc.net (194.151.0.6) 148.771 ms 145.805 ms 146.297 ms > 14 XS4ALLISUH101.unisrc.net (194.151.250.66) 201.407 ms 174.725 ms 176.681 ms > 15 speed.xs4all.net (194.109.7.77) 173.013 ms 156.631 ms 156.327 ms > 16 * * * > 17 * * * > > -Archie > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message -- Support Whirled Peas. Business in China? China House robert@chalmers.com.au ph:61 7 49440357 fx:61 7 49578425 China House Uses Webposition to ensure Top Spot in Searches http://www.chalmers.com.au/ChinaHouse/Business/webposition To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 16:19:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11328 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:19:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isf.kiev.ua (sunone.isf.kiev.ua [194.44.162.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11230 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:18:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kushn@mail.kar.net) Received: from olinet.isf.kiev.ua by isf.kiev.ua with ESMTP id CAA03564; (8.8.7/2.b2) Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:06:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from kushnir.kiev.ua by olinet.isf.kiev.ua with SMTP id BAA22363; (8.8.last/vAk3/1.9) Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:59:28 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 02:07:40 +0300 (EEST) From: Vladimir Kushnir X-Sender: volodya@kushnir.kiev.ua Reply-To: Vladimir Kushnir To: Ollivier Robert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD ELF status? In-Reply-To: <19980612064449.A23986@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Vladimir Kushnir: > > Have you also got working ELF bootloader? If so, would you mind pointing > > me to where it is? (Yes, I know there was post on -current list, but it > > points to freefall, and I've no access there). > > Here is an old message from John: > > According to John Polstra: > > In article <19971230162350.28393@keltia.freenix.fr>, > > Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > > > Where can one find ELF aware boot blocks ? > > > > There are some old ones at: > > > > ftp://ftp.polstra.com/pub/FreeBSD/elfboot/ > > > > I'm too busy to help people with them right now, so ... use them at > > your own risk and don't bug me. :-) > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 > > Sorry for being anoying but I've (at least) some questions here: does this boot loader work with -current? (I mean, yes, it compiles all right as aout thing, but if I install it would it work or am I going to screw up my system?) how d'you compile the ELF kernel? What options do work? 'Cause I'm getting undefined symbols for switchtime all the time, and link_aout.c compiles only when I add the flag "-DFREEBSD_AOUT" manually. Besides, if I understand correctly, LKM shouldn't work at all. What I'm getting at, how (if at all) can one make (and boot) the _working_ completely ELF system? Thanks in advance, Vladimir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 16:30:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13728 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13613 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:30:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA28593; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:31:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199806122331.JAA28593@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: FreeBSD ELF status? In-Reply-To: from Vladimir Kushnir at "Jun 13, 98 02:07:40 am" To: kushn@mail.kar.net Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 09:31:43 +1000 (EST) Cc: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Vladimir Kushnir wrote: > Sorry for being anoying but I've (at least) some questions here: > > does this boot loader work with -current? (I mean, yes, it compiles all > right as aout thing, but if I install it would it work or am I going to > screw up my system?) > > how d'you compile the ELF kernel? What options do work? 'Cause I'm getting > undefined symbols for switchtime all the time, and link_aout.c compiles > only when I add the flag "-DFREEBSD_AOUT" manually. Besides, if I > understand correctly, LKM shouldn't work at all. What I'm getting at, how > (if at all) can one make (and boot) the _working_ completely ELF system? Would you mind just waiting for the people working on ELF to complete their work? -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 16:41:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15563 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:41:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15526 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA11329; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:40:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Ruslan Ermilov cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Updated section 4.2 of the Formatting Media tutorial In-Reply-To: <19980612162302.A1419@ucb.crimea.ua> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > The section 4.2 of the Formatting Media tutorial utilizes pax(1). > > The pax (even with ``-p e'') doesn't preserve file flags. > The cp(1) can preserve file flags: [..] > > obviously, should look like > > ccdconfig ccd0 32 0 /dev/sd0c /dev/sd1c /dev/sd2c OK, I'll make those updates. Thanks! Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 17:38:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25378 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25256; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:37:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20024; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: Mike Smith cc: Nate Williams , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernfs/procfs questions... In-Reply-To: <199806042232.PAA02556@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > But users aren't expected to use gdb/nm/hexdump, but sysctl is. Many of > > > > these parameters *should* be tweaked to get better performance, avoid > > > > errors, etc... > > > > > > > Only some of them, if any. > > > > Again I say, if they're not meant to be touched, then don't expose > > them. It's stupid to expose something that is useless for 99.9% of the > > population. > > They're no more or less "exposed" than, say, the diskslice ioctls. If > they serve a function as (eg.) maintenance tools, then they're superior > to the Sun "just use adb on the kernel and set this to that..." > approach. > > > It's not my place to enforce, but if it were I'd start removing any > > sysctl's that weren't documented/used. As Mike pointed out in private > > email, there are 434 sysctl nodes in our system, and 20 of them are > > documented one way or the other. The rest are magic. > > > > I think of sysctl as a bunch of big global variable, or OPTIONS in the > > kernel config file. If it isn't documented, it isn't needed. Could I make a suggestion? How about allowing the documentation on sysctl to be outside the norm a little, so as to make it much easier for folks adding new ones to make the doc? This eliminates the need to add the troff/man formatting, which can bre a pain. Something like a file in /usr/share/doc (maybe /usr/share/doc/sysctl.list) where every new knob needs to get a short def, of a form that encourages (at least) a minimum in completeness? This would allow huge howls if a new sysctl was implemented without a doc entry. The man page on sysctl could refer to that file, and everyone wouldn't have to stumble over troff. If you don't want the doc in a separate file, it _could_ go in the man page. I know troff well enough to do that, but I'd have to be a short term pest while getting the info. Won't do that without your agreement that it's necessary. I'd really rather have it in a separate file, so documenting new ones could have a firm requirement of documentation (because there'd be no excuse not to do that). I think, personally, the fs route is overkill, myself, but the doc angle is the real point, isn't it? ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (NetBSD). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 18:08:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00488 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:08:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00383; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18939; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:07:32 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA00402; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 03:07:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980613030730.29068@follo.net> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 03:07:30 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Chuck Robey , Mike Smith Cc: Nate Williams , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernfs/procfs questions... References: <199806042232.PAA02556@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 07:36:09PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 07:36:09PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > Could I make a suggestion? How about allowing the documentation on > sysctl to be outside the norm a little, so as to make it much easier for > folks adding new ones to make the doc? This eliminates the need to add > the troff/man formatting, which can bre a pain. Something like a file > in /usr/share/doc (maybe /usr/share/doc/sysctl.list) where every new > knob needs to get a short def, of a form that encourages (at least) a > minimum in completeness? This would allow huge howls if a new sysctl > was implemented without a doc entry. The man page on sysctl could refer > to that file, and everyone wouldn't have to stumble over troff. % cat /usr/include/sys/sysctl.h | grep 'define.*SYSCTL_OID' #define SYSCTL_OID(parent, nbr, name, kind, a1, a2, handler, fmt, descr) \ % That descr is for description. I can't see any way we can make this easier - you only type a string into the place you define the sysctl anyway. Of course, people tend to put empty strings there - so let's peer-pressure them a little ;-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 18:15:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02187 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:15:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02160; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:14:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01561; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806130007.RAA01561@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Chuck Robey cc: Mike Smith , Nate Williams , dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: kernfs/procfs questions... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:36:09 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:07:54 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > It's not my place to enforce, but if it were I'd start removing any > > > sysctl's that weren't documented/used. As Mike pointed out in private > > > email, there are 434 sysctl nodes in our system, and 20 of them are > > > documented one way or the other. The rest are magic. > > > > > > I think of sysctl as a bunch of big global variable, or OPTIONS in the > > > kernel config file. If it isn't documented, it isn't needed. > > Could I make a suggestion? How about allowing the documentation on > sysctl to be outside the norm a little, so as to make it much easier for > folks adding new ones to make the doc? This eliminates the need to add > the troff/man formatting, which can bre a pain. Something like a file > in /usr/share/doc (maybe /usr/share/doc/sysctl.list) where every new > knob needs to get a short def, of a form that encourages (at least) a > minimum in completeness? This would allow huge howls if a new sysctl > was implemented without a doc entry. The man page on sysctl could refer > to that file, and everyone wouldn't have to stumble over troff. Actually, you're supposed to supply at least a description of the sysctl in the SYSCTL_* macro itself. > If you don't want the doc in a separate file, it _could_ go in the man > page. I know troff well enough to do that, but I'd have to be a short > term pest while getting the info. Won't do that without your agreement > that it's necessary. I'd really rather have it in a separate file, so > documenting new ones could have a firm requirement of documentation > (because there'd be no excuse not to do that). > > I think, personally, the fs route is overkill, myself, but the doc angle > is the real point, isn't it? It's one of them, yes. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 20:21:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17043 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:21:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from monk.via.net (monk.via.net [209.81.9.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA17016 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:21:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@via.net) Received: (from joe@localhost) by monk.via.net (8.6.11/8.6.12) id UAA28358 for hackers@freebsd.org; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:20:32 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:20:32 -0700 From: Joe McGuckin Message-Id: <199806130320.UAA28358@monk.via.net> To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Stable fails to compile X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In libskey: skeyaccess.c cc1: warnings being treated as errors: ... '__sputc' defined but not used. *** Error code 1 Stop. How do I fix this? How do I continue my build without starting from scratch? Thanks, Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Fri Jun 12 21:22:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24325 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gdi.uoregon.edu (metriclient-1.uoregon.edu [128.223.172.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24319 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 21:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@gdi.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by gdi.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA00314 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@gdi.uoregon.edu) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:39:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White Reply-To: Doug White To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATAPI CD ROM Installation Failure on BSD 2.2.6 (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Somebody want to try to decode the ATAPI error message that this guy is getting? We've checked cabling and it all checks out. I forget the model of drive tho. Doug White | University of Oregon Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major NOTICE: Make sure your mailer replies to dwhite@resnet or I won't get it! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:15:09 -0400 From: Hartong To: Doug White Subject: Re: ATAPI CD ROM Installation Failure on BSD 2.2.6 Hello Doug... Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, I had to go into the hospital again.. ye olde kidneys went into failure mode .... >Hm.... verify that your master/slave jumpers are correct and you cable is >okay. That's about all I can figure is going on. I've tried all the combinations of the CD-ROM as master and slave both on the primary and secondary ide controller with the same results. ATAPI1.O: INVALID COMMAND PHASE, IREASON=0xd8,STATUS=d8, ERROR=d8 Any other ideas? Do you know anyone on the core team who spent some time writing the interface driver could read the error message? Maybe they could put the error message in context and that will provide some clues as to what is going wrong? Thanks Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 01:06:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15666 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.net-link.net (mail.net-link.net [205.217.6.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15419 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:03:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wpub1@net-link.net) Received: from ricecake.fastnet0.net (pmr200-1.bc.net-link.net [207.49.227.41]) by mail.net-link.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id EAA02548 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:03:47 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980613041000.006bb5b4@smtp.net-link.net> X-Sender: wpub1@smtp.net-link.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 04:10:00 -0400 To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Matthew Hagerty Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 In-Reply-To: References: <199806102250.IAA23365@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I tried to compile a 2.2.6-R kernel with gcc-2.8.1, did not work. I posted a question about it, but no one replied so I figured 2.8.1 is to broken to use (or to much of a hassel for anyone to fix right now). If you get it to work, please let me know. Matthew >supposedly the whole world will compile fine, only problem is that the >kernel won't link properly with 2.8.1 (haven't seen the problem myself >but i know people that have tried) > >On Thu, 11 Jun 1998, Peter Jeremy wrote: > >> I would like to do a make world using gcc-2.8.1, tweaked for my system >> (ie Pentium-II), rather than the modified gcc-2.7.2.1 included in >> 2.2.6-R. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 01:36:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18028 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18018 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id KAA06239 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:36:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id KAA29941 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:30:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980613103033.A29938@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:30:33 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota Mail-Followup-To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <199806121947.NAA19181@ve7tcp.ampr.org> <199806122044.PAA22673@ranma.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <199806122044.PAA22673@ranma.nectar.com>; from Jacques Vidrine on Fri, Jun 12, 1998 at 03:44:25PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4374 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Jacques Vidrine: > I wasn't aware of LMTP. Can you provide references? I prefer > no patches even to trivial patches ;-) See the mail.local program shipped with 8.9.0. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 01:37:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18128 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18120 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:37:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id KAA06520 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:36:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id KAA29905 for hackers@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:19:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980613101940.A29885@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:19:40 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD ELF status? Mail-Followup-To: hackers@freebsd.org References: <19980612064449.A23986@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Vladimir Kushnir on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 02:07:40AM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4374 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Vladimir Kushnir: > does this boot loader work with -current? (I mean, yes, it compiles all > right as aout thing, but if I install it would it work or am I going to > screw up my system?) Probably the latter :-) I've not tested booting... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 10:21:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12399 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@COPLAND.CODA.CS.CMU.EDU [128.2.222.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12352 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:21:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00828; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:20:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Terry Lambert cc: I Indrajaya , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota In-Reply-To: <199806121627.JAA09298@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Could some one tell me how make mail with quota, so that users can > > only recieve mail until the file /var/mail/[user] reaches the file > > size limitation. > > > > At the mo. I'm using freebsd 2.1.7 and sendmail 8.8.8 > > Install a mail server whose delivery module can enforce quotas. > > I specifically recommend the "Cyrus" IMAP4/POP3 server, which > comes with a program "deliver" that allows you to set quotas on > a per user basis. Better yet, on a per-mailbox-subtree basis using quota roots and the hierarchal namespace. Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 12:50:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28613 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles301.castles.com [208.214.167.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28608 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00629; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806131845.LAA00629@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Doug White cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ATAPI CD ROM Installation Failure on BSD 2.2.6 (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:39:58 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:45:54 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Somebody want to try to decode the ATAPI error message that this guy is > getting? We've checked cabling and it all checks out. I forget the model > of drive tho. > > Doug White | University of Oregon > Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | Residence Networking Assistant > http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | Computer Science Major > NOTICE: Make sure your mailer replies to dwhite@resnet or I won't get it! > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:15:09 -0400 > From: Hartong > To: Doug White > Subject: Re: ATAPI CD ROM Installation Failure on BSD 2.2.6 > > Hello Doug... > > Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, I had to go into the hospital > again.. ye olde kidneys went into failure mode .... > > > >Hm.... verify that your master/slave jumpers are correct and you cable is > >okay. That's about all I can figure is going on. > > > I've tried all the combinations of the CD-ROM as master and slave both on > the primary and secondary ide controller with the same results. > > ATAPI1.O: INVALID COMMAND PHASE, > IREASON=0xd8,STATUS=d8, ERROR=d8 > > > Any other ideas? > > Do you know anyone on the core team who spent some time writing the > interface driver could read the error message? Maybe they could put the > error message in context and that will provide some clues as to what is > going wrong? Sure; the driver is saying "the drive is not in the phase I expected it to be in". Sort of "what the hell does it think it's doing?" More interestingly, note that the 'ireason', 'status' and 'error' values are *all* 0xd8. This implies that there's a really basic problem talking to the drive. My suspicions would tend to suggest timing problems of some sort; either we are not giving the drive enough time to behave, or perhaps the user is overclocking and their IDE controller isn't playing the game. Seeing the full set of wd* probe messages would be useful, especially if there are other devices involved. Also, knowing the set of actions leading to the fault would help. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 12:56:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29079 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bingsun1 (bingsun1.cc.binghamton.edu [128.226.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA29048 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bf20761@binghamton.edu) Received: from localhost (bf20761@localhost) by bingsun1 (SMI-8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA26730 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:56:13 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:56:13 -0400 (EDT) From: zhihuizhang X-Sender: bf20761@bingsun1 To: hackers Subject: linker set defintion (ls_item) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am reading freeBSD source code concerning the linker set which I believe is a set of *addresses* of similar symbols. The linker set structure is defined in kernel.h as: struct linker_set { int ls_length; const void * ls_item[1]; } The value of ls_item should be the address of an array of pointers. Since the size of this array is not fixed, I wonder why it is not defined as: struct linker_set [ int ls_length; const void ** ls_item; } This may have something to do with the C compiler. I hope some C expert can give me a hint. Thanks in advance. ------------------------------------------------- Zhihui Zhang Department of Computer Science State University of New York at Binghamton Web Site: http://cs.binghamton.edu/~zzhang ------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 13:04:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00488 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles301.castles.com [208.214.167.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00452 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:04:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00727; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806131859.LAA00727@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: zhihuizhang cc: hackers Subject: Re: linker set defintion (ls_item) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:56:13 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:59:19 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I am reading freeBSD source code concerning the linker set which I believe > is a set of *addresses* of similar symbols. The linker set structure is > defined in kernel.h as: > > struct linker_set { > int ls_length; > const void * ls_item[1]; > } > > The value of ls_item should be the address of an array of pointers. No. ls_item is the first entity in an array of pointers. The linker _set structure is prepended to the array, rather than pointing to it. > Since > the size of this array is not fixed, I wonder why it is not defined as: > > struct linker_set [ > int ls_length; > const void ** ls_item; > } > > This may have something to do with the C compiler. I hope some C expert > can give me a hint. Thanks in advance. Because the above is incorrect. If you were dynamically allocating a linker_set structure, you would do something like this: lsptr = (struct linker_set *)malloc(sizeof(struct linker_set) + (num_items - 1) * sizeof(void *)); This then lets you address items in the linker set thus: iptr = lsptr->ls_item[item_number] This technique takes advantage of the fact that C performs no range-checking. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 13:12:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01504 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:12:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [204.27.67.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01429 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:11:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@bone.nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (localhost.communique.net [127.0.0.1]) by bone.nectar.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA20988; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:10:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806132010.PAA20988@bone.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: References: Subject: Re: linker set defintion (ls_item) To: zhihuizhang cc: hackers Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:10:48 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- One definition results in the list of void* immediately following the structure, i.e. +------------------+ | int ls_length | +- - - - - - - - - + | void* ls_item[0] |---> +- - - - - - - - - + | void* ls_item[1] |---> +- - - - - - - - - + | etc.... | The other definition results in the list void* being somewhere unknown. +------------------+ | int ls_length | +- - - - - - - - - + +------------------+ | void** ls_item |---> | void* ls_item[0] |---> +------------------+ +- - - - - - - - - + | void* ls_item[1] |---> +- - - - - - - - - + | etc.... | Hope this helps, Jacques Vidrine On 13 June 1998 at 15:56, zhihuizhang wrote: > > I am reading freeBSD source code concerning the linker set which I believe > is a set of *addresses* of similar symbols. The linker set structure is > defined in kernel.h as: > > struct linker_set { > int ls_length; > const void * ls_item[1]; > } > > The value of ls_item should be the address of an array of pointers. Since > the size of this array is not fixed, I wonder why it is not defined as: > > struct linker_set [ > int ls_length; > const void ** ls_item; > } > > This may have something to do with the C compiler. I hope some C expert > can give me a hint. Thanks in advance. > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Zhihui Zhang > > Department of Computer Science > State University of New York at Binghamton > > Web Site: http://cs.binghamton.edu/~zzhang > > ------------------------------------------------- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNYLcyDeRhT8JRySpAQFu/wP+MymEvMbjsb4nnxTSPwSMKetKcqMye1BU u2XNGzPxjLdynreye+3h7Ob06UZGa+h0hURBgWd5c1pbVwqyUcQGC+K0B40mPzwh cwSbpFfn/SEjjhZ5Vs8C8W8msy4mkaF1h1zaYtJxRT/2gRDAFpxUJRwYZ0JOxxLe OmaJ3Hc5Lqg= =R3eV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 14:14:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09563 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:14:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09420 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:13:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: from tao.thought.org (tao.tera.com [207.108.223.55]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22785; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA20249; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:12:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199806132112.OAA20249@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <1623.897632922@coconut.itojun.org> from Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh at "Jun 12, 98 03:28:42 pm" To: itojun@iijlab.net (Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Cc: easmith@beatrice.rutgers.edu, frankch@waru.life.nthu.edu.tw, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh: > this thread is becoming not very suitable for "hackers" > so this is my last comment ;-) > [[[ ... ]]] (( probably should move at least this issue to -chat if anyone cares to continue it... )) > > Wow, this is the point. Phonetic expression (and sound itself) > has ambiguity in Japanese/Chinese/Korean language. If you hear > some sound, you can interpret that in several ways. We resolve > the ambiguity by context in spoken Japanese, and by Kanji letters > in written Japanese. > > For example, Japanese sound, "Hashi", can be translated into > both "bridge" and "chopsticks". There's slight difference > in sound (intonation) which makes those sound distinct. > Also, Japanese sound "Saru" can be translated to "monkey (noun)" and > "leaving from somewhere (verb)". In this case there's no > difference in sound. We make a distinction by context > for spoken Japansese, and by Kanji letters in written Japanese. > > Therefore, if we write "saru" in Kana (phonetic letter), > we cannot figure out what these letters mean. This makes it > really hard for us to read Kana-only teletype, which were > used about 20 years ago. > > itojun > The issues here are well presented and well-taken. They are analogous to the many homologues in English that not infrequently cause some confusion even in context. Words like "to," "two," and "too." "Blew" and "blue." I didn't realize this until now, and see a solution in a diacritical with the Kana. A contrived example would be "hashi'" == "bridge" and "hashi`" == "chopsticks". I think it is almost certain sometime in the next century that some sort of alphabet will replace the ideogram. I see China leading the way on this. When//if this happens, the 8- or 16- (or 32-bit) character set issue will become moot; or at least muted. For the present, when your runelocale library can accept both Unicode and ISO_2022-* that seems altogether workable. gary > -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 14:34:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11949 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:34:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isf.kiev.ua (sunone.isf.kiev.ua [194.44.162.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11931 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:34:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kushn@mail.kar.net) Received: from olinet.isf.kiev.ua by isf.kiev.ua with ESMTP id AAA19813; (8.8.7/2.b2) Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:26:51 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from kushnir.kiev.ua by olinet.isf.kiev.ua with SMTP id AAA26272; (8.8.last/vAk3/1.9) Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:20:23 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:28:37 +0300 (EEST) From: Vladimir Kushnir X-Sender: volodya@kushnir.kiev.ua To: Ollivier Robert cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD ELF status? In-Reply-To: <19980613101940.A29885@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Vladimir Kushnir: > > does this boot loader work with -current? (I mean, yes, it compiles all > > right as aout thing, but if I install it would it work or am I going to > > screw up my system?) > > Probably the latter :-) I've not tested booting... > -- A pity :-( Well, I can't have them all. Thanks anyway. > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 > Regards, Vladimir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 15:37:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16932 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:37:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ve7tcp.ampr.org (ve7tcp.ampr.org [198.161.92.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16888 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lyndon@ve7tcp.ampr.org) Received: from ve7tcp.ampr.org (localhost.ampr.org [127.0.0.1]) by ve7tcp.ampr.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA01625; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:36:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806132236.QAA01625@ve7tcp.ampr.org> To: Jacques Vidrine cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sendmail and Quota In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:44:25 CDT." <199806122044.PAA22673@ranma.nectar.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:36:28 -0600 From: Lyndon Nerenberg Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >>>>> "Jacques" == Jacques Vidrine writes: Jacques> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I wasn't aware of Jacques> LMTP. Can you provide references? I prefer no patches Jacques> even to trivial patches ;-) RFC2033. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 16:23:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21986 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:23:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21978 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06557; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:23:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199806132323.SAA06557@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980613041000.006bb5b4@smtp.net-link.net> from Matthew Hagerty at "Jun 13, 98 04:10:00 am" To: wpub1@net-link.net (Matthew Hagerty) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:23:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew Hagerty said: > > I tried to compile a 2.2.6-R kernel with gcc-2.8.1, did not work. I posted > a question about it, but no one replied so I figured 2.8.1 is to broken to > use (or to much of a hassel for anyone to fix right now). If you get it to > work, please let me know. > I have played with various versions of gcc, and have found that 2.7.X.X that FreeBSD uses is certainly a sweet-spot for reliability. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 16:34:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23218 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23209; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27171; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:34:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806132334.QAA27171@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: wpub1@net-link.net (Matthew Hagerty), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Making world with gcc-2.8.1 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:23:23 CDT." <199806132323.SAA06557@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:34:29 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You can say that again !! Amancio > Matthew Hagerty said: > > > > I tried to compile a 2.2.6-R kernel with gcc-2.8.1, did not work. I posted > > a question about it, but no one replied so I figured 2.8.1 is to broken to > > use (or to much of a hassel for anyone to fix right now). If you get it to > > work, please let me know. > > > I have played with various versions of gcc, and have found that > 2.7.X.X that FreeBSD uses is certainly a sweet-spot for reliability. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 17:33:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28299 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles301.castles.com [208.214.167.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28270 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02021; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806132328.QAA02021@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Nicolas Souchu cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Marc Bouget Subject: Re: I2C bus In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 23:44:06 -0000." <19980609234406.41618@breizh.prism.uvsq.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:28:27 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hi there, > > We're about to write Philips semiconductor support for the I2C bus. > > Of course, we think about writing something generic for the bus and > specific independent code for different controllers (ISA, parallel...) > > If well designed this framework could accept new later developments with > I2C support (ex. hardware monitoring and so on). Indeed. I was actually thinking about this while I was playing with the SMB BIOS stuff, and in fact this is perhaps an interface worth considering. See http://www.sbs-forum.org/specs.htm for the SMB stuff, including the bus specification (closely derived from I2C) and the SMB BIOS interface, which you may choose to implement (perhaps with some augmentation) as the API. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-hackers Sat Jun 13 19:05:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05642 for freebsd-hackers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (castles361.castles.com [208.214.167.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05607 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@antipodes.cdrom.com) Received: from antipodes.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by antipodes.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02222; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806140021.RAA02222@antipodes.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), itojun@itojun.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, tech-jp@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Modular kernel (was Re: new config ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Jun 1998 20:49:52 -0000." <199806092049.NAA09520@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:21:03 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > 1) Commit the ELF/a.out bootblock changes, the location of which > was posted to the -current list some time ago. No. Let me/help me finish the new bootloader, which doesn't have these silly size restrictions. > Yes, I know this leaves only 28 bytes and you have to disable > the spashkit and the bad144 to build blocks that can boot both > a.out and ELF kernels. I don't care. The bootblock issue is > a boondoggle. It will go away when the a.out code is removed. Bollocks. Apart from the fact that the splash code was never committed, the bootblock size problems will never "go away". > 2) Switch -current to ELF by default. > > You shouldn't be running -current unless you are either > participating in or testing active developement work. ELF > is active developement work. Switching -current to ELF > *now* is within the charter for -current, as well as being > a good idea: shake out the ELF problems *now*, not just > prior to 3.0R, or you will regret it (the shakeout *must* > occur; whether this happens before or after 3.0 is released > is up to the people with commit priviledges). I'd want to give the integration folks a little longer on this, just because the volume of noise following the cutover will be *huge*, and the degree of *huge*ness depends on how well they've covered the bases. We also want current.freebsd.org back online before then, simply because for many people an upgrade install to an ELF world will be the easiest way to go when they screw themselves during the build upgrade. > 3) Load only specifically attributed ELF sections. > > Section attribution via #pragma, ala MS Visual C++, was added > by Cygnus support a while back, in their support of compilation > of WIN32 programs using gcc. Please write up some documentation on this (not in a mail message), including how to attribute a module to a section, and a list of sections that you'd recommend for the kernel. Also, how to differentiate between them when you're loading them, etc. > 4) Transition linker sets to inter-section loader agregates > instead of true linker agregation. > > This will allow "sysinit" set elements to live in seperate > ELF sections, yet function as if they were statically linked. > > I will be happy to help with this, but it's not brain surgery, > and it's an obvious win for supporting pure virtual bas classes > and Templates in ELF C++. You might even convince the Linux > people to do the work for you... Whether it's brainsurgery or not isn't so much relevant as that you have the information to hand and a belief that it should be realised. > 6) Make room in the bootblocks. > > The simplest method would be to delete the a.out code. If > someone doesn't want this to happen, then that "someone" > should implement a three stage boot loader to resolve the > problem, or the "someone" can lump it over the fact that > their a,out kernels will no longer load. I'm working on this. Usenix and exams have prevented me from committing a significantly modified adaption of the NetBSD 'libsa' (which I will be calling 'libstand'), which provides a fairly comfortable runtime environment for standalone applications. The x86-specific components are not really clean enough, and I am not yet sure whether they ought to be in a separate library yet. The 'boot' application is at the point where it loads and runs, and loads a.out kernels (thanks to Doug Rabson for this). It doesn't support running other standalone apps, nor ELF kernels at all, but I consider these secondary. When I get back from Usenix, I expect to be able to devote considerable time to getting this finished, and I'll make more noise at that point in time. > 7) Add code to the bootblocks to load the elf sections from > multiple files. > > Instead of just the kernel file itself, a "/modules/active" > directory containing discrete ELF modules (or call it whatever > the hell is the most politically correct thing to call it, I > don't care) is scanned, and all ELF images sections that meet > the criteria in (3), above, are loaded. Now adding a commercial > driver is as simple as copying an ELF module into a directory. Hmm, would you advocate the 'push' approach here over a 'pull' approach, ie. PCI/PnP/whatever id translates to module lookup, module lookup provides dependancies, dependancies list modules, modules are loaded, etc.? This avoids having modules loaded when they are/might not be needed. > 14) Document and firm up the interfaces used by drivers. > > Ideally, this will conform to the SCO/Novell/Sun driver > framework so that FreeBSD can use driver disks supplied > by hardware vendors. How do you feel about UDI (SCO/HP/Digital/etc.)? > 15) Implement a VxD environment emulation. > > This will allow use of NT miniport drivers. If done right, > you will be able to use drivers for PPC and Alpha hardware, > as well. Eyecch. Last time I looked these made large numbers of assumptions about the internal structure and behaviour of the kernel. 8( -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message