From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Oct 24 15:20:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B069B14A21 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11fVzj-0003J4-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:20:07 +0000 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:20:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Marc Schneiders To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: article in dutch pc-magazine Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In case it may otherwise be lost to history: I did a little article about FreeBSD in a Dutch PC-magazine, mainly devoted to windows. Details: FreeBSD: Unix voor thuis? [= FreeBSD: Unix at home?], in: PC-Active 11 (1999) no. 11, November, 105-107. Even got paid for it :-) Marc Marc Schneiders || In re tam justa || nulla est deliberatio! marc@venster.nl || marc@oldserver.demon.nl || Acta SS. MM. Scillitanorum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Oct 24 20:59:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7908714CA5 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:59:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id NAA15378; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:58:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xman15267; Mon, 25 Oct 99 13:58:02 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22525 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:57:17 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA28519 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:57:16 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03173; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:57:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Need anti-exchange ammunition Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:57:15 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greetings fellow defenders of right and good. Well, I feel like I'm under siege, so I'm looking for fellow defenders. :-) A project here that we thought was just looking for a new mail system to replace CCMail (for the PC centric general users) has expanded beyond recognition and wants to take over everything. One of their expectations is that we will toss out our existing FreeBSD/sendmail mail hub and put in M$ Exchange. Eeek! So, I'm looking for as much anti exchange ammunition as I can find. I'm interested, of course, in technical stuff, but even more interested in war stories of managers getting fired for breaking the mail system. And it can't hurt to be directed to sites that describe how to build an exchange replacement from open source tools, just to scare them with. Thanks, Stephen. Disclaimer: Um, well, what sort of disclaimer can I put here? I'm acting on my own, nobody put me up to it, this is not official policy, official policy is to stick your head in the sand, no oops, I can't say that, strike that bit, OK? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Oct 24 21:22:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcon.com.au (firewall.bbcon.com.au [203.28.19.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E6F1519E for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:21:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from firewall.bbcon.com.au (stargate [10.0.0.1]) by bbcon.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA25313; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:22:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from localhost (jsutton@localhost) by firewall.bbcon.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA02910; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:26:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) X-Authentication-Warning: stargate.home: jsutton owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:26:04 +1000 (EST) From: Joel Sutton X-Sender: jsutton@stargate.home To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ADV] Need anti-exchange ammunition In-Reply-To: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stephen, On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > Greetings fellow defenders of right and good. Well, I feel like I'm > under siege, so I'm looking for fellow defenders. :-) Well, I'll give it a go. ;-) > A project here that we thought was just looking for a new mail system > to replace CCMail (for the PC centric general users) has expanded > beyond recognition and wants to take over everything. One of their > expectations is that we will toss out our existing FreeBSD/sendmail > mail hub and put in M$ Exchange. Eeek! Eeek indeed! I'm feeling ill already. > So, I'm looking for as much anti exchange ammunition as I can find. > I'm interested, of course, in technical stuff, but even more > interested in war stories of managers getting fired for breaking the > mail system. And it can't hurt to be directed to sites that describe > how to build an exchange replacement from open source tools, just to > scare them with. Firstly, how about cost?? Exchange isn't cheap but if your organisation already owns it... One of the things I try to push with FreeBSD is the availability of extra low-cost bits and pieces: - imap access - pop access - telnet access to mail via pine/elm/whatever - imp for web based email - server based filtering with procmail - majordomo Lets not forget the anti-spaming facilities that come with sendmail by default on a FreeBSD install. Taking the other side of the argument for a moment. Is there an already existing NT setup? (ie fileserver with 100 user accounts). I haven't done much with Exchange, but I have with Groupwise (Novell's groupware product). One of the major advantages of using Groupwise in a netware environment is that it can access the authentication info in an existing NDS tree. Can we achieve something similar with FreeBSD (radius???)? Also, these is the administration of the system. Are the techo's in your organisation mainly UNIX people? If so, they would be more productive with FreeBSD boxes. If something goes wrong with an email system like Exchange (or Groupwise), the database can be difficult to clean up. At my previous job, people's email would simply vapourise when the Groupwise post office got screwed up. Sometimes we could get it back, but not often. Perhaps someone who has had experience with Exchange could comment on this? Using IMAP and Pegasus mail is one of the methods I recommend for people in this situation. It's cost effective and centralised. If someone can't download their email, there's a good chance you can fix it with vi in /var/mail. Well, there's a few bits and pieces. Hope they help. Cheers, Joel... --- Joel Sutton | Busy Bee Consulting Phone: 0409 426-563 | Melbourne, Australia Email: jsutton@bbcon.com.au | http://www.bbcon.com.au/ VicFUG Webmaster/Acting President | http://www.vicfug.au.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Oct 24 22:32:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B52C14A0E for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 22:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@hons.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:32:03 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Henry" In-Reply-To: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> from "Stephen McKay" at Oct 25, 99 01:57:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 505 Message-Id: <19991025053211.8B52C14A0E@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > So, I'm looking for as much anti exchange ammunition as I can find. I'm > interested, of course, in technical stuff, but even more interested in > war stories of managers getting fired for breaking the mail system. And > it can't hurt to be directed to sites that describe how to build an > exchange replacement from open source tools, just to scare them with. Have they come up with any good arguments *for* replacing FreeBSD/Sendmail with Windows NT/Exchange? If so, I'd like to hear them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 3:17:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (no-dns-yet.demon.co.uk [194.217.50.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5614915104 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 03:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (octopus.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.234]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F6B7C54; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:17:38 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <38142E67.C73FA6B5@originative.co.uk> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:18:15 +0100 From: Paul Richards Organization: Originative Solutions Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joel Sutton Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [ADV] Need anti-exchange ammunition References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joel Sutton wrote: > > Stephen, > > On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > > > Greetings fellow defenders of right and good. Well, I feel like I'm > > under siege, so I'm looking for fellow defenders. :-) > > Well, I'll give it a go. ;-) > > > A project here that we thought was just looking for a new mail system > > to replace CCMail (for the PC centric general users) has expanded > > beyond recognition and wants to take over everything. One of their > > expectations is that we will toss out our existing FreeBSD/sendmail > > mail hub and put in M$ Exchange. Eeek! > > Eeek indeed! I'm feeling ill already. > > > So, I'm looking for as much anti exchange ammunition as I can find. > > I'm interested, of course, in technical stuff, but even more > > interested in war stories of managers getting fired for breaking the > > mail system. And it can't hurt to be directed to sites that describe > > how to build an exchange replacement from open source tools, just to > > scare them with. > > Firstly, how about cost?? Exchange isn't cheap but if your organisation > already owns it... > > One of the things I try to push with FreeBSD is the availability of extra > low-cost bits and pieces: > > - imap access > - pop access > - telnet access to mail via pine/elm/whatever > - imp for web based email > - server based filtering with procmail > - majordomo Exchange does most if not all of the above so it's not the best argument. The biggest problem I've had with exchange is restoring failed systems. Exchange puts the SID into the mail repository (the SID is a security ID) and because of that you can't use a mail repository from one machine on another machine. The SID is generated uniqely when you install NT so if you install NT on to another box you get a different SID. The effect of this is that if your Exchange box fails then you can't restore your mail repository on another box, unless you have a backup of the NT security hive then your mail is lost. Even if you do have a copy of your security hive (and you better make sure you do backup it up regularly) the fact that the SID is in the mail repository means that you can't build a clean Exchange server and move the mail across, you have to restore you're old hive and effectively create a clone of the original box. This caused me no end of hassles when I first came across it and has been my main criticism of Exchange ever since. You can duplicate most of NT's functionality using sendmail (postfix, whatever), cyrus and ldap. Performance is also worth considering, Exchange eats resources much like everything else Microsoft. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 4:38:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freenix.no (freenix.no [195.139.70.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67121513D for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 04:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@freenix.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freenix.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04022 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:38:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:38:22 +0200 (METDST) From: "Morten A. Middelthon" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in the latest issue of ;login: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the latest issue of ;login: there are two very positive articles talking about FreeBSD: "FreeBSD Tracking Stable" by Rick Leir, where, among many other things, he says "I think that FreeBSD is the best *nix system and that it is particularly suitable as a server." "musings" by Rik Farrow, where he talks about the history of the Free/Net/OpenBSD projects. -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 6: 1:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE97151DC for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 06:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA65719; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:00:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Adam Szilveszter Cc: Gregory Sutter , Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Well, FreeBSDCon has already made it into upside magazine... References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Oct 1999 15:00:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: Adam Szilveszter's message of "Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:58:21 +0200 (CEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adam Szilveszter writes: > If you consider mp3 (which would be a good choice because it is available > on practically any platform, (almost like NetBSD:-) then consider bladeenc > from the ports for encoding the raw audio file. We had very good results > with it even using high bitrates. High bit rates make it easier, not harder. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 8:48: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from behemoth.redcart.com (behemoth.lehub.com [209.24.238.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F819151AC for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:47:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shibumi@redcart.com) Received: from miranda.redcart.com (www.marketinsights.com [209.24.238.77] (may be forged)) by behemoth.redcart.com (8.9.2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA38216; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shibumi@redcart.com) Received: from miranda.redcart.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miranda.redcart.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01773; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:48:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shibumi@redcart.com) Message-Id: <199910251548.IAA01773@miranda.redcart.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.0 04/14/1999 To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:57:15 +1000." <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Reply-To: shibumi@redcart.com X-Disclaimer: Unless otherwise noted below, this is not a policy statement X-Url: http://www.shockwave.org/~shibumi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 08:48:02 -0700 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Scaleability has been the issue in the past. If you beat on M$, they will eventually admit that a given Exchange server can only support about 50 users. You'll still need to head-end the server with a UNIX box to handle the organization mail, unless you only have about 100 user accounts total to manage. If the mail clients handle MIME correctly, Exchange offers little to no advantage over the usual SMTP/POP/IMAP combination. On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:57:15 +1000, Sendmail channeled Stephen McKay saying: > Greetings fellow defenders of right and good. Well, I feel like I'm under > siege, so I'm looking for fellow defenders. :-) > > A project here that we thought was just looking for a new mail system to > replace CCMail (for the PC centric general users) has expanded beyond > recognition and wants to take over everything. One of their expectations > is that we will toss out our existing FreeBSD/sendmail mail hub and put > in M$ Exchange. Eeek! > > So, I'm looking for as much anti exchange ammunition as I can find. I'm > interested, of course, in technical stuff, but even more interested in > war stories of managers getting fired for breaking the mail system. And > it can't hurt to be directed to sites that describe how to build an > exchange replacement from open source tools, just to scare them with. > > Thanks, > > Stephen. > > Disclaimer: Um, well, what sort of disclaimer can I put here? I'm acting > on my own, nobody put me up to it, this is not official policy, official > policy is to stick your head in the sand, no oops, I can't say that, strike > that bit, OK? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > | Kenton A. Hoover | shibumi@marchordie.org | | Private Citizen | | | San Francisco, California | | |===================== http://www.shockwave.org/~shibumi ====================| | Dolores breezed along the surface of her life like a flat stone forever | | skipping along smooth water, rippling reality sporadically but oblivious | | to it consistently, until she finally lost momentum, sank, and due to an | | overdose of fluoride as a child which caused her to suffer from chronic | | apathy, doomed herself to lie forever on the floor of her life as useless | | as an appendix and as lonely as a five-hundred pound barbell in a | | steroid-free fitness center. | | -- Winning sentence, 1990 Bulwer-Lytton bad fiction contest. | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 10:40:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from impatience.valueclick.com (impatience.valueclick.com [216.64.159.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 66A5C151FC for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:40:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ask@valueclick.com) Received: (qmail 31999 invoked by uid 500); 25 Oct 1999 17:40:34 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 25 Oct 1999 17:40:34 -0000 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:40:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Ask Bjoern Hansen To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition In-Reply-To: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: Exchange 5.0 had a big built in security hole you could not work around (it could not be configured to disallow 3th party relaying), and you had to buy the upgrade to 5.5. Stuff like that seems to be standard MS policy. "Oh, it allows everyone to abuse it? You can upgrade to our latest bugfix that replaces that problem with another for only $2000!" - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - more than 50M impressions per day, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 14: 6:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from logisticsoftware.co.nz (logisticsoftware.co.nz [202.37.163.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CF814D54 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02279; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:06:16 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:06:16 +1300 (NZDT) From: Jonathan Chen To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition In-Reply-To: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Stephen McKay wrote: > So, I'm looking for as much anti exchange ammunition as I can find. I'm > interested, of course, in technical stuff, but even more interested in > war stories of managers getting fired for breaking the mail system. And > it can't hurt to be directed to sites that describe how to build an > exchange replacement from open source tools, just to scare them with. Hmm. If you have a sizeable amount of users (ie 40+ users) Exchange tends to gets its knickers in a twist approx every 1.5 months. At which time you have to *REINSTALL* the software + patches; that's what I seem to observe with a friend handling MS Support for a company here in Auckland. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Chen | When all else fails, RTFM ------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 18:22:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5AAB152C9 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (ind.alcatel.com 2.3 [OUT])) id QAA07684; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA03566; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:55:09 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn7.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA06468; Mon, 25 Oct 99 16:54:40 PDT Message-Id: <3814EDC6.2C2A5F39@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:54:46 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Well, FreeBSDCon has already made it into upside magazine... References: <38129B2B.55722F2D@softweyr.com> <19991023224354.A85574@azazel.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 11:37:47PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > By the way, Greg Lehey and I were the featured guests on the KSL Computer > > Show on KSL Radio 1160 AM here in Salt Lake City this afternoon. We have > > a casette tape of the show recorded off-air in the studio. Suggestions on > > how to digitize this for web presentation, and formats? .au seems widely > > useful for UNIX systems, should we attempt to create an MP3 as well/instead? > > What (FreeBSD-based, of course) recording tools might we find useful? > > mp3 is pretty near universal these days; you'd probably have better > results (and certainly better quality for the file size) than a more > raw audio file. Congratulations on your radio appearance! OK, MP3 it is. Now, how do I get the darned thing digitized? I know I need a cable from my tape player to the line-in on my sound card, but what app do I use to "record" it to digital format? I'd prefer to "produce" this with FreeBSD and mention that on the web page... ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 22:15: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6402614A25 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.199.140]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB45F8; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:14:55 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA24365; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:26:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:26:23 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Message-ID: <19991026062623.G24278@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [19991025 07:24], Stephen McKay (syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) wrote: >So, I'm looking for as much anti exchange ammunition as I can find. I'm >interested, of course, in technical stuff, but even more interested in >war stories of managers getting fired for breaking the mail system. And >it can't hurt to be directed to sites that describe how to build an >exchange replacement from open source tools, just to scare them with. Of all the reports I get on our abuse mail at the ISP I work for, about 90% are MS Exchange boxes. That, and that MS Exchange doesn't fully follow RFC spec from time to time. Best option would be: Internet<--->Sendmail<--->Exchange This allows all the whiners to use their groupware internal and make sure mail to the outside world gets handled normally and is adequate to providing anti-spam measures. (Even with MS fixes to Exchange server you need to delve into the registry to enable them all.) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best To desire immortality is to desire the eternal perpetuation of a great mistake. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 25 23: 5:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774EC15313 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 23:05:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id IAA02939; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:05:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11fzsK-0003QJ-00; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:14:28 +0200 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:14:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Adam Szilveszter To: Wes Peters Cc: Gregory Sutter , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Well, FreeBSDCon has already made it into upside magazine... In-Reply-To: <3814EDC6.2C2A5F39@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > OK, MP3 it is. Now, how do I get the darned thing digitized? I know I need > a cable from my tape player to the line-in on my sound card, but what app > do I use to "record" it to digital format? I'd prefer to "produce" this with > FreeBSD and mention that on the web page... ;^) > Hi! As I see the rec(1) utility does it which is installed when you install "play" from the ports. I have not managed to find out though, which device under /dev is responsible for receiving "line" input. Can anyone help? Cheers! Szilveszter ADAM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 6:51: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C9E14CB7 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id XAA14642; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:49:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma014625; Tue, 26 Oct 99 23:49:34 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11110 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01035 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:38 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16538; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:37 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 23:48:37 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG First, thanks to those who have responded so far. What I've seen is enough to show me that there are troubled times ahead. But none of it will convince the "opposition", for want of a better word. I'm still hoping for more extreme evidence. Forgive me if I don't attribute everyone. You'll be able to spot your own bits. Cost. Normally a strong point, you'd think. But I believe we are in the position of already having paid. We'd have to un-pay. Very rare thing for the Government. Leads to finger pointing, and nasty letters in the paper. So, I think exchange will replace CCMail here, but I'm hoping to stop it spreading too far. The high cost of Exchange and the big iron needed to run it might just stop the onrushing tide before it engulfs the mail hub, but it is unlikely to stop it anywhere else. In fact, the whole thing has been sold as a money saving operation. But not from equipment or software costs, but administration costs. For this sort of thing, management are utterly convinced that point and click is better than a command line interface. After all, they have no idea what to do with a command line interface, and their Unix jockeys are way expensive. Ergo, in with the GUI, out with the CLI! To summarise that point (because I'm sure we could have a big advocacy storm on this one if we really wanted), the reasoning goes like this: expensive people use CLI, cheap people use GUI, so let's buy a lot of GUI software. It's not really about sendmail vs exchange. Someone asked about sizing. We have approximately the same number of Unix server admins as Novell server admins, and about twice as many Unix boxes as Novell boxes. This is partially because the existing mail system is CCMail, and that keeps them busy repairing it all the time. A couple NT boxes have appeared under the guise of pilot studies. There are a whole heap of PC support people who manage desktops and do the user hand holding stuff. Our current mail system supports about 1500 people. We know we could do the lot with imap and a couple FreeBSD boxes (distributed over the state), but I've discovered that the killer argument is that the mail program must come with a scheduler/organiser, just like CCMail. Again, management are utterly convinced that scheduling and mail are the same stuff. They can point to CCMail and say "We want one just like this, except that works". We have nothing to offer, calendar wise. Suggestions solicited! The argument about broken Exchange systems being hard to repair because of embedded SIDs is enough to keep me away, but not compelling at a higher level. A manager says, "Mail administrator! Fix that box!" and their work is done. They do that already with CCMail. Nice try though. I'll use it against some irritating opposition techies. Someone mentioned NDS. This is the new wonder product, I'm told. We are getting it here in a big way, and it will link in with Exchange too. Apparently it will replace all our account login details on every system in our entire organisation, and will replace DNS and DHCP. Phew! That's another story though, and we are well advanced in arguing against it. Still, if anyone has any reason to believe that NDS distributed replication doesn't work, I'm all ears. :-) In fact, the "Save Our DNS/DHCP" campaign is the only thing to bear fruit so far. Partially it's because of my catchy slogan: "It's a text file. And we *love* it!" referring to the plain text config files which we use for everything, and which we revision control and grep etc, vs the difficulty of doing anything sensible with a GUI. The slogan is so catchy that I've convinced a layer or two of management to fight our cause. In the "you win some, you lose some" situation, I'll keep the DNS, DHCP and password file, and lose the mail system, if I have to. Stephen. PS We're dropping in on an Exchange "success story" tomorrow. If you have any really pointed questions I can ask, feel free to send them in. Ta! I've got a few myself, and I'll let you know if anything fun happens. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 7:32:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77D614E9F for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:32:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id QAA10974; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:32:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11g7n5-0006JX-00; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:41:35 +0200 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:41:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Adam Szilveszter To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: radio appearance in mp3 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! Updating my previous post from this morning, appearantly the thing to do is a 'mixer =rec line' to set Line as the recording device before you start. After this you can use rec(1) as 'rec $OUTFILE' where $OUTFILE is where you want the thing to go if you specify an appropriate suffix (e.g wav) you don't even have to set the type of the sound file...I could only test it here to create an empty file (silence) because I lack the appropriate cable... but good luck! Cheers! Szilveszter ADAM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * Adam Szilveszter * JATE Szeged * email: sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu * * Homepage : none * alternate email: cc@flanker.itl.net.ua * * Finger sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu for PGP key. * * I prefer using the door instead of Windows(tm)... * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 8:17:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02F314A03 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 11g8LQ-00038B-00; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:17:04 -0600 Message-ID: <3815C5F1.3D4F3B14@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:17:05 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stephen McKay wrote: > > In fact, the whole thing has been sold as a money saving operation. But > not from equipment or software costs, but administration costs. For this > sort of thing, management are utterly convinced that point and click is > better than a command line interface. After all, they have no idea what > to do with a command line interface, and their Unix jockeys are way > expensive. Ergo, in with the GUI, out with the CLI! > > To summarise that point (because I'm sure we could have a big advocacy > storm on this one if we really wanted), the reasoning goes like this: > expensive people use CLI, cheap people use GUI, so let's buy a lot of > GUI software. It's not really about sendmail vs exchange. Was any thought given to purchasing the commercial, supported Sendmail Pro GUI for administration? See http://www.sendmail.com/guide/index.html. > Someone asked about sizing. We have approximately the same number of Unix > server admins as Novell server admins, and about twice as many Unix boxes > as Novell boxes. This is partially because the existing mail system is > CCMail, and that keeps them busy repairing it all the time. A couple NT > boxes have appeared under the guise of pilot studies. There are a whole > heap of PC support people who manage desktops and do the user hand holding > stuff. My partner is a full-time UNIX SA for a local call-center company. They have 21 large HP machines, 2 Sun servers, and one lonely UnixWare machine, and 2 SAs. They only had one until 4 months ago, when they hired a backup so they wouldn't have to call Jody everytime one of the Oracle DBAs hiccuped. They also have 8 NT servers owned by the "end luser computing" group, and 7 full-time NT admins to keep them running. I'll leave the math up to you. > Our current mail system supports about 1500 people. We know we could do > the lot with imap and a couple FreeBSD boxes (distributed over the state), > but I've discovered that the killer argument is that the mail program must > come with a scheduler/organiser, just like CCMail. Again, management are > utterly convinced that scheduling and mail are the same stuff. They can > point to CCMail and say "We want one just like this, except that works". > We have nothing to offer, calendar wise. Suggestions solicited! Netscape Enterprise server. If there is a (recent) version that runs on FreeBSD, I'd love to hear about it. It's certainly a better answer than Ex-crud. > Someone mentioned NDS. This is the new wonder product, I'm told. We are > getting it here in a big way, and it will link in with Exchange too. > Apparently it will replace all our account login details on every system > in our entire organisation, and will replace DNS and DHCP. Phew! That's > another story though, and we are well advanced in arguing against it. > Still, if anyone has any reason to believe that NDS distributed replication > doesn't work, I'm all ears. :-) In fact NDS works pretty well. It's a damn good thing we have LDAP support in FreeBSD, isn't it? > In fact, the "Save Our DNS/DHCP" campaign is the only thing to bear fruit > so far. Partially it's because of my catchy slogan: > > "It's a text file. And we *love* it!" > > referring to the plain text config files which we use for everything, and > which we revision control and grep etc, vs the difficulty of doing anything > sensible with a GUI. The slogan is so catchy that I've convinced a layer > or two of management to fight our cause. In the "you win some, you lose > some" situation, I'll keep the DNS, DHCP and password file, and lose the > mail system, if I have to. Tell them they can use the RCS logs to determine who to fire when somebody screws up. Managers just love having someone to point a finger at. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 8:27:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008BD14E9F for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:27:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: by mercury.jorsm.com (Postfix, from userid 1850) id 81E2FE4A17; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.jorsm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 768B7E0C0B; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:27:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: Greg Lehey Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Well, FreeBSDCon has already made it into upside magazine... In-Reply-To: <19991025102409.34180@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 23 October 1999 at 19:25:17 -0500, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > I agree. I would have done as much when I setup the mirror, but: > > > > 1) gmarco didn't create real thumbnails. > > 2) The workstations in the terminal room weren't equipped with the Gimp. > > You can use xv. Bill Fumerola did exactly that from the terminal^Whub > room, and it worked fine. D0h!. He's since created thumbnails (and made description changes), I just need to update the mirror. -Jeremy -=========================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov, Biz, Indivds Since 1995 -=========================================================================- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 9:36:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.kana.com (mail.kana.com [206.107.225.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A613914F2A for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:36:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ren@kana.com) Received: from moulokin.kana.com (dmz-gate.kana.com [206.107.225.129]) by mail.kana.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06455; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:36:47 -0700 Received: (from ren@localhost) by moulokin.kana.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA21081; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:36:44 -0700 From: Anthony Cordeiro To: Wes Peters Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Message-ID: <19991026093644.A20925@kana.com> References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3815C5F1.3D4F3B14@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <3815C5F1.3D4F3B14@softweyr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:17:05AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: [snip] > > Our current mail system supports about 1500 people. We know we could do > > the lot with imap and a couple FreeBSD boxes (distributed over the state), > > but I've discovered that the killer argument is that the mail program must > > come with a scheduler/organiser, just like CCMail. Again, management are > > utterly convinced that scheduling and mail are the same stuff. They can > > point to CCMail and say "We want one just like this, except that works". > > We have nothing to offer, calendar wise. Suggestions solicited! > > Netscape Enterprise server. If there is a (recent) version that runs on > FreeBSD, I'd love to hear about it. It's certainly a better answer than > Ex-crud. You really, really want nothing to do with Netscape's Calendar server. Trust me on this one. (Look Ma, I'm on ex-mozilla) Unless they've done a complete re-write in the past six months, you don't even want to go there. But, it'll run on any OS you like, so long as it's Solaris. Which means it's really not a consideration for us freaky daemon lovers. The problem here is a major one, and unless something absolutely revolitionary happens, I'm almost willing to concede that the free source crowd has lost the "messaging and collaboration" market. People want point'n' click address books, and whiz-bang one-button calendaring, and such. Exchange gives you all of that and more right out of the box. Sure, it doesn't scale, but all the person paying the bills cares about is that it works. Stripping years off their IS staff's life is not their concern. This is a really tough argument that I've yet to win. NT fanboys can say, "Look, I can just install Exchange, and Outlook on everyone's desk, and all our users are happy". What can I do with FreeBSD? Well, I can set up an IMAP server, okay. Oops, gotta write some sort of script to sync the mail server user database with the NT password database, well, okay. Calendar? Er, flat files and grep? Address book? Well, we've got LDAP, sort of, until Captive Directory shows up with its new LDAP with "extra features", and it's not compatible with anyone's client anymore. Has /anyone/ managed to put together an elegant all-in-one solution on FreeBSD that can run a whole shop, and keep all the Outlook drones happy? We've had a bunch of arguments against Exchange so far, but this is -advocacy. Anyone got a success story for something other than Exchange? --Ren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 11:29: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDD014F6B for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 5DBD51C29; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9213817; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:31:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: Jeremy Shaffner Cc: Greg Lehey , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Well, FreeBSDCon has already made it into upside magazine... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > You can use xv. Bill Fumerola did exactly that from the terminal^Whub > > room, and it worked fine. Greg is my savior. Those pictures were looking mighty ugly until he showed me the ways of xv. -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 12:20:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [207.154.84.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5518A15236 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 80735 invoked by uid 1001); 26 Oct 1999 19:20:31 -0000 Date: 26 Oct 1999 12:20:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:20:31 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: "Morten A. Middelthon" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the latest issue of ;login: Message-ID: <19991026122031.E79420@dub.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 01:38:22PM +0200, Morten A. Middelthon wrote: > > In the latest issue of ;login: there are two very positive articles > talking about FreeBSD: > > "FreeBSD Tracking Stable" by Rick Leir, where, among many other things, > he says "I think that FreeBSD is the best *nix system and that it is > particularly suitable as a server." > > "musings" by Rik Farrow, where he talks about the history of the > Free/Net/OpenBSD projects. When I get some time I intend to write Rik Farrow to point out a glaring error in his article, page 75, paragraph 6 where he states that Theo formed OpenBSD as a splinter group off of FreeBSD. In fact it was a splinter group off of NetBSD. -Bill -- -=| --- B i l l S w i n g l e --- http://www.dub.net/ -=| unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| Different all twisty a of in maze are you, passages little To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 12:35:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D4714F90 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:35:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA48875; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:34:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:34:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Anthony Cordeiro Cc: Wes Peters , Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition In-Reply-To: <19991026093644.A20925@kana.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Anthony Cordeiro wrote: > The problem here is a major one, and unless something > absolutely revolitionary happens, I'm almost willing to concede > that the free source crowd has lost the "messaging and > collaboration" market. People want point'n' click address books, > and whiz-bang one-button calendaring, and such. Exchange gives you > all of that and more right out of the box. Sure, it doesn't scale, > but all the person paying the bills cares about is that it works. > Stripping years off their IS staff's life is not their concern. > > This is a really tough argument that I've yet to win. NT > fanboys can say, "Look, I can just install Exchange, and Outlook > on everyone's desk, and all our users are happy". What can I do > with FreeBSD? Well, I can set up an IMAP server, okay. Oops, gotta > write some sort of script to sync the mail server user database > with the NT password database, well, okay. Calendar? Er, flat > files and grep? Address book? Well, we've got LDAP, sort of, until > Captive Directory shows up with its new LDAP with "extra > features", and it's not compatible with anyone's client anymore. > > Has /anyone/ managed to put together an elegant all-in-one > solution on FreeBSD that can run a whole shop, and keep all the > Outlook drones happy? We've had a bunch of arguments against > Exchange so far, but this is -advocacy. Anyone got a success story > for something other than Exchange? Well, if Horde's Kronolith calendar application is ever finished, it should integreate nicely with IMP, giving you that all-in-one feel. See http://www.horde.org. I've seen lots of other web-based calendars on places like Freshmeat, but I doubt those integrate much with anything else. The only problem left is the account/password sync between the NT and Unix boxes. I'm checking into that right now, since I'm stuck in the same dilemma (nobody is pushing me to use anything else, I just hate managing multiple accounts). So far there is Unix Services for NT which supposedly offers password sync of some sort and even NIS support, neither of which I have looked into yet since I can't get the damn Microsoft Management Console that it requires to work correctly. The other, better solution, is to have one central LDAP database holding all the account information that both the NT and Unix boxes consult. This seems to be easy enough to implement on the Unix side using PAM and nsswitch (or in my case, all I should need is an LDAPified Cyrus pwcheck daemon), but I can't find anything for NT that would do essentially the same. Not without forking out heaps of money and/or going to Win2000 with its Acrid Directory. -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 15:26:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829B614EA6 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 15:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bottemanne@capitolonline.nl) Received: from capitolonline.nl ([195.121.170.255]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA36F1; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:26:06 +0200 Message-ID: <3816384C.52ED34B0@capitolonline.nl> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:25:01 +0100 From: Aernoudt Bottemanne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (OS/2; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Stephen, Well about costs I can give you some figures. These figures are all from IDG and Gartner Group, so were talking about objective and quality information. This information, amongst others, I use to convine people to go for Linux/FreeBSD/any other Unix: TCO (Total Cost of Ownership): Unix versus NT, in general > 20 % cheaper to have Unix: * users Unix=14,57% cheaper * staff Unix=20,34% cheaper *admin Unix=8.76% cheaper * network Unix=49,77% cheaper These figures are based upon 1000 users in anetwork. When the figures grow, the differences become bigger (in Unix advantage !) Up-time: based on a thorough investigation ( > 100.000 companies...) Unix=23,6 hours per year of the air NT=224,5 hours per year of the air These are the official figures. Several large Dutch organizations, some big banks, calculate 300 hours downtime per year per NT server..... These figures are for Unix on Intel, the downtime of Unix on proprietary hardware is even lower. AIX servers on RS/6000 or SP are leading the compitition here. Good luck ! FreeBSD: with patented Gates-Be-Gone(TM) gets rid of blue screens in a flash ! It forks ! It blits ! Look at those fantastic pixels ! It surfs the web ! You could even host an ISP with it ! Stephen McKay wrote: > First, thanks to those who have responded so far. What I've seen is > enough to show me that there are troubled times ahead. But none of > it will convince the "opposition", for want of a better word. I'm > still hoping for more extreme evidence. > > Forgive me if I don't attribute everyone. You'll be able to spot your > own bits. > > Cost. Normally a strong point, you'd think. But I believe we are in > the position of already having paid. We'd have to un-pay. Very rare > thing for the Government. Leads to finger pointing, and nasty letters > in the paper. So, I think exchange will replace CCMail here, but I'm > hoping to stop it spreading too far. > > The high cost of Exchange and the big iron needed to run it might just > stop the onrushing tide before it engulfs the mail hub, but it is unlikely > to stop it anywhere else. > > In fact, the whole thing has been sold as a money saving operation. But > not from equipment or software costs, but administration costs. For this > sort of thing, management are utterly convinced that point and click is > better than a command line interface. After all, they have no idea what > to do with a command line interface, and their Unix jockeys are way > expensive. Ergo, in with the GUI, out with the CLI! > > To summarise that point (because I'm sure we could have a big advocacy > storm on this one if we really wanted), the reasoning goes like this: > expensive people use CLI, cheap people use GUI, so let's buy a lot of > GUI software. It's not really about sendmail vs exchange. > > Someone asked about sizing. We have approximately the same number of Unix > server admins as Novell server admins, and about twice as many Unix boxes > as Novell boxes. This is partially because the existing mail system is > CCMail, and that keeps them busy repairing it all the time. A couple NT > boxes have appeared under the guise of pilot studies. There are a whole > heap of PC support people who manage desktops and do the user hand holding > stuff. > > Our current mail system supports about 1500 people. We know we could do > the lot with imap and a couple FreeBSD boxes (distributed over the state), > but I've discovered that the killer argument is that the mail program must > come with a scheduler/organiser, just like CCMail. Again, management are > utterly convinced that scheduling and mail are the same stuff. They can > point to CCMail and say "We want one just like this, except that works". > We have nothing to offer, calendar wise. Suggestions solicited! > > The argument about broken Exchange systems being hard to repair because of > embedded SIDs is enough to keep me away, but not compelling at a higher > level. A manager says, "Mail administrator! Fix that box!" and their work > is done. They do that already with CCMail. Nice try though. I'll use it > against some irritating opposition techies. > > Someone mentioned NDS. This is the new wonder product, I'm told. We are > getting it here in a big way, and it will link in with Exchange too. > Apparently it will replace all our account login details on every system > in our entire organisation, and will replace DNS and DHCP. Phew! That's > another story though, and we are well advanced in arguing against it. > Still, if anyone has any reason to believe that NDS distributed replication > doesn't work, I'm all ears. :-) > > In fact, the "Save Our DNS/DHCP" campaign is the only thing to bear fruit > so far. Partially it's because of my catchy slogan: > > "It's a text file. And we *love* it!" > > referring to the plain text config files which we use for everything, and > which we revision control and grep etc, vs the difficulty of doing anything > sensible with a GUI. The slogan is so catchy that I've convinced a layer > or two of management to fight our cause. In the "you win some, you lose > some" situation, I'll keep the DNS, DHCP and password file, and lose the > mail system, if I have to. > > Stephen. > > PS We're dropping in on an Exchange "success story" tomorrow. If you have > any really pointed questions I can ask, feel free to send them in. Ta! > I've got a few myself, and I'll let you know if anything fun happens. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 26 22:24:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9968115011 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.63]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6EF1; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 07:24:36 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA28992; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 07:24:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 07:24:39 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Wes Peters Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Message-ID: <19991027072439.B28697@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3815C5F1.3D4F3B14@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <3815C5F1.3D4F3B14@softweyr.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [19991026 19:26], Wes Peters (wes@softweyr.com) wrote: >Stephen McKay wrote: >> Someone mentioned NDS. This is the new wonder product, I'm told. We are >> getting it here in a big way, and it will link in with Exchange too. >> Apparently it will replace all our account login details on every system >> in our entire organisation, and will replace DNS and DHCP. Phew! That's >> another story though, and we are well advanced in arguing against it. >> Still, if anyone has any reason to believe that NDS distributed replication >> doesn't work, I'm all ears. :-) > >In fact NDS works pretty well. It's a damn good thing we have LDAP support >in FreeBSD, isn't it? Trust me, I did NDS for 450 Novell servers nationwide (Netherlands) over framerelay. The versions we used were around the 6.xx digit and wasn't really suitable for low-end framerelay links. Also, by default the NDS tree's security sucked and now they want to have Cisco config files in there? No thank you. Having said all that though, Boris Popov (hi Boris ;) ) is working up on getting NDS support in his stuff he committed into the tree in CURRENT. Sounds good eh? -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Do unto others, as ye would have done unto you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 6: 3:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907DB153DB for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 06:03:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) id VAA00623; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19991026212347.43852@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:23:47 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: Bill Fumerola , Jeremy Shaffner Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Well, FreeBSDCon has already made it into upside magazine... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Tue, Oct 26, 1999 at 01:31:26PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 26 October 1999 at 13:31:26 -0400, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Tue, 26 Oct 1999, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > >>> You can use xv. Bill Fumerola did exactly that from the terminal^Whub >>> room, and it worked fine. > > Greg is my savior. Those pictures were looking mighty ugly until he > showed me the ways of xv. I think you're overstating the case. But for others who may be interested: apart from resizing the pics, it's usually necessary to increase the gamma to about 1.7 or so, otherwise the pics are really dim. Do that in the colour editor, in the box mid bottom. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 6: 3:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 415C1153C0 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 06:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) id VAA00617; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19991026212140.10723@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:21:40 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: Bill Swingle , "Morten A. Middelthon" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the latest issue of ;login: References: <19991026122031.E79420@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19991026122031.E79420@dub.net>; from Bill Swingle on Tue, Oct 26, 1999 at 12:20:31PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 26 October 1999 at 12:20:31 -0700, Bill Swingle wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 01:38:22PM +0200, Morten A. Middelthon wrote: >> >> In the latest issue of ;login: there are two very positive articles >> talking about FreeBSD: >> >> "FreeBSD Tracking Stable" by Rick Leir, where, among many other things, >> he says "I think that FreeBSD is the best *nix system and that it is >> particularly suitable as a server." >> >> "musings" by Rik Farrow, where he talks about the history of the >> Free/Net/OpenBSD projects. > > When I get some time I intend to write Rik Farrow to point out a > glaring error in his article, page 75, paragraph 6 where he states that > Theo formed OpenBSD as a splinter group off of FreeBSD. In fact it was a > splinter group off of NetBSD. Well, yes, it's wrong, but is it so glaring? Anyway, I bet that Theo gets there first :-) Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 7:10:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F423B14C92 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 07:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id AAA15540; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:10:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xmaa15531; Thu, 28 Oct 99 00:09:46 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22527; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:01:11 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA29784; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:01:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25376; Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:01:10 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199910271401.AAA25376@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Aernoudt Bottemanne Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3816384C.52ED34B0@capitolonline.nl> In-Reply-To: <3816384C.52ED34B0@capitolonline.nl> from Aernoudt Bottemanne at "Wed, 27 Oct 1999 00:25:01 +0100" Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 00:01:10 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 27th October 1999, Aernoudt Bottemanne wrote: >TCO (Total Cost of Ownership): >Unix versus NT, in general > 20 % cheaper to have Unix: > >* users Unix=14,57% cheaper >* staff Unix=20,34% cheaper >* admin Unix=8.76% cheaper >* network Unix=49,77% cheaper >Up-time: based on a thorough investigation ( > 100.000 companies...) >Unix=23,6 hours per year of the air >NT=224,5 hours per year of the air I'm interested in where you got this from. You say "Gartner", but do you have a more precise reference? Gartner have said a lot of stuff over the years. If I know the exact reference, I can get someone else here to look it up for me. Thanks, Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 9: 9:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C464115408 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:09:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bottemanne@capitolonline.nl) Received: from capitolonline.nl ([195.121.169.58]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA4FE5; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:09:00 +0200 Message-ID: <381731ED.4248F28D@capitolonline.nl> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:10:05 +0100 From: Aernoudt Bottemanne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (OS/2; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3816384C.52ED34B0@capitolonline.nl> <199910271401.AAA25376@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Stephen, If I can help somebody kick M$ ass, you have my full support ! The figures below are from IDC, the January report (of 1999) Stephen McKay wrote: > On Wednesday, 27th October 1999, Aernoudt Bottemanne wrote: > > >TCO (Total Cost of Ownership): > >Unix versus NT, in general > 20 % cheaper to have Unix: > > > >* users Unix=14,57% cheaper > >* staff Unix=20,34% cheaper > >* admin Unix=8.76% cheaper > >* network Unix=49,77% cheaper > These figures (below) are from gartner Group October 1998. The latest I've heard, is that the differences is even growing ! that is good news. (also the TCO of M$ is getting higher in comparison with Unix. As soon as I've got the latest, advocacy is the first to know !) > >Up-time: based on a thorough investigation ( > 100.000 companies...) > >Unix=23,6 hours per year of the air > >NT=224,5 hours per year of the air > > Just for info: S/390 downtime is less then 10 minutes per year.... Tandem 1,7 hours, AS/400 5,2 and VAX 18,9 Unix on Intel = 23,6. AIX (RS/6000 and SP) and HP-UX boxes have lower downtimes then the mentioned 23,6 hours. > I'm interested in where you got this from. You say "Gartner", but do > you have a more precise reference? Gartner have said a lot of stuff > over the years. If I know the exact reference, I can get someone else > here to look it up for me. > > Thanks, > > Stephen. Your welcome ! FreeBSD: with patented Gates-Be-Gone(TM) gets rid of blue screens in a flash ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 9:17:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from penelope.skunk.org (penelope.skunk.org [208.133.204.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C120F15401 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@penelope.skunk.org) Received: from localhost (ben@localhost) by penelope.skunk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA95162 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:23:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Ben Rosengart To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Compaq's testdrive program now supports FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/27/0910227&mode=thread -- Ben Rosengart UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group StarMedia Network, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 9:53: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7691E14EF0 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (ind.alcatel.com 2.3 [OUT])) id JAA08373; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA00067; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 09:52:46 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn7.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA03691; Wed, 27 Oct 99 09:52:36 PDT Message-Id: <38172DDB.897FBEE5@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:52:43 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3815C5F1.3D4F3B14@softweyr.com> <19991027072439.B28697@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > -On [19991026 19:26], Wes Peters (wes@softweyr.com) wrote: > > > >In fact NDS works pretty well. It's a damn good thing we have LDAP support > >in FreeBSD, isn't it? > > Trust me, > > I did NDS for 450 Novell servers nationwide (Netherlands) over > framerelay. The versions we used were around the 6.xx digit and wasn't > really suitable for low-end framerelay links. > > Also, by default the NDS tree's security sucked and now they want to > have Cisco config files in there? No thank you. By "pretty well" I meant "better than slapd or Active Deathtrap." Over a large network, it might even mean "nearly as good as yellow pages, which sucks." > Having said all that though, Boris Popov (hi Boris ;) ) is working up on > getting NDS support in his stuff he committed into the tree in CURRENT. Yay, Boris! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 10: 1:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bamf.demon.co.uk (bamf.demon.co.uk [158.152.173.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0466C14A24 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:01:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rich@dynamite.org) Received: from clyde (unverified [192.168.1.2]) by clyde.chugaboom.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:22:19 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Rich Wood" Organization: dynamite.org To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 18:22:19 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Reply-To: rich@dynamite.org References: <199910250357.NAA03173@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12a) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26 Oct 99, at 10:06, Jonathan Chen wrote: > Hmm. If you have a sizeable amount of users (ie 40+ users) Exchange > tends to gets its knickers in a twist approx every 1.5 months. At > which time you have to *REINSTALL* the software + patches; that's > what I seem to observe with a friend handling MS Support for a company > here in Auckland. Not wanting to defend MS too much, but if your 40 user Exchange installation needs reinstalling every 6 weeks, you need a better administrator. My 2 server (one for users, one for external connectors) 1500 account setup has been fault-free for the last year or more, except for the time someone let it run out of disk space whilst I was on holiday. However, Exchange is an absolute pain to secure, and will quite happily relay mail unless you chant the appropriate incantations. If you need the group-scheduling facilities, you could do worse than use Exchange. If you don't need them, don't go anywhere near it. Rich -- rich@dynamite.org rich@FreeBSD.org.uk If that's what they call normal, I'd rather be insane To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 11:24:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server.computeralt.com (server.computeralt.com [207.41.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5E714CF6 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@computeralt.com) Received: from scott (scott.computeralt.com [207.41.29.100]) by server.computeralt.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA00920 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.1.9.19991027141609.00af5800@mail.computeralt.com> X-Sender: scott@mail.computeralt.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.1.9 (Beta) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:23:55 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "Scott I. Remick" Subject: Compaq supports FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Compaq's Testdrive program now supports FreeBSD: ----------------------- Scott I. Remick scott@computeralt.com Network and Information (802)388-7545 ext. 236 Systems Manager FAX:(802)388-3697 Computer Alternatives, Inc. http://www.computeralt.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 12:15: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964E314D3E for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.212]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB1353; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:14:43 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30940; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:44:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:44:14 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Wes Peters Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Message-ID: <19991027204414.C30916@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3815C5F1.3D4F3B14@softweyr.com> <19991027072439.B28697@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <38172DDB.897FBEE5@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <38172DDB.897FBEE5@softweyr.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [19991027 20:02], Wes Peters (wes@softweyr.com) wrote: > >By "pretty well" I meant "better than slapd or Active Deathtrap." Over a >large network, it might even mean "nearly as good as yellow pages, which >sucks." No denying that. Given choice between Windows and Novell, hell yeah, Novell! Of course I prefer BSD. =) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best After a silent, peaceful night, you took my Heart and slipped away... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 12:15: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A797414D43 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.212]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAD1353; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:14:44 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30936; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:42:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:42:56 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Greg Lehey Cc: Bill Swingle , "Morten A. Middelthon" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the latest issue of ;login: Message-ID: <19991027204256.B30916@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19991026122031.E79420@dub.net> <19991026212140.10723@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991026212140.10723@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [19991027 16:01], Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) wrote: > >Well, yes, it's wrong, but is it so glaring? Anyway, I bet that Theo >gets there first :-) Something the BSD community, sometimes unfortunately taught me, be the first to do something since others say they will or take for granted others will. You go correct the guy Bill. Don't count on Theo. -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Peace at any price. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 12:15: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9374715042 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.212]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAC1353; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:14:43 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA30947; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:46:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:46:18 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Aernoudt Bottemanne Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition Message-ID: <19991027204618.D30916@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3816384C.52ED34B0@capitolonline.nl> <199910271401.AAA25376@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <381731ED.4248F28D@capitolonline.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <381731ED.4248F28D@capitolonline.nl> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -On [19991027 20:01], Aernoudt Bottemanne (bottemanne@capitolonline.nl) wrote: > >Just for info: S/390 downtime is less then 10 minutes per year.... >Tandem 1,7 hours, AS/400 5,2 and VAX 18,9 >Unix on Intel = 23,6. AIX (RS/6000 and SP) and HP-UX boxes have lower >downtimes then the >mentioned 23,6 hours. Is this hard downtime or soft downtime? E.g. did the hardware fail or were there situations for which the equipment needed to be turned of? Hi Aernoudt btw =) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Let the dead bury their dead... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 13:23:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313AA1519F for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:23:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bottemanne@capitolonline.nl) Received: from capitolonline.nl ([195.121.170.229]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2C91; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:22:57 +0200 Message-ID: <38176D8C.A1CF0C3E@capitolonline.nl> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 22:24:28 +0100 From: Aernoudt Bottemanne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (OS/2; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition References: <199910261348.XAA16538@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <3816384C.52ED34B0@capitolonline.nl> <199910271401.AAA25376@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> <381731ED.4248F28D@capitolonline.nl> <19991027204618.D30916@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Total downtime: so a mix of hardware and software. (mostly software (except on Intel...)) Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > -On [19991027 20:01], Aernoudt Bottemanne (bottemanne@capitolonline.nl) wrote: > > > >Just for info: S/390 downtime is less then 10 minutes per year.... > >Tandem 1,7 hours, AS/400 5,2 and VAX 18,9 > >Unix on Intel = 23,6. AIX (RS/6000 and SP) and HP-UX boxes have lower > >downtimes then the > >mentioned 23,6 hours. > > Is this hard downtime or soft downtime? > > E.g. did the hardware fail or were there situations for which the > equipment needed to be turned of? > > Hi Aernoudt btw =) > > -- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl > The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project > Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best > Let the dead bury their dead... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 13:25: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667201519F for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA60814; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38173155.DAD37D2@owp.csus.edu> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:07:33 +0000 From: Joseph Scott Organization: Water Programs - CSU Sacramento X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Rosengart Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compaq's testdrive program now supports FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ben Rosengart wrote: > > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/10/27/0910227&mode=thread > > -- Just to be fair, see also : http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=154 dated 20 Oct 99 -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 27 14:51:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 661DF14E08 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) id PAA02747; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19991027155219.00688@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:52:19 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Bill Swingle , "Morten A. Middelthon" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the latest issue of ;login: References: <19991026122031.E79420@dub.net> <19991026212140.10723@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> <19991027204256.B30916@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19991027204256.B30916@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 08:42:56PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 27 October 1999 at 20:42:56 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > -On [19991027 16:01], Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) wrote: >> >> Well, yes, it's wrong, but is it so glaring? Anyway, I bet that Theo >> gets there first :-) > > Something the BSD community, sometimes unfortunately taught me, be the > first to do something since others say they will or take for granted > others will. > > You go correct the guy Bill. Don't count on Theo. Agreed. I wasn't suggesting he shouldn't try. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 29 9:12:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CDC5154A8 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 09:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com ([199.103.141.157]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA23809 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 01:41:26 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Message-ID: <19991025102409.34180@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:24:09 -0600 From: Greg Lehey To: Jeremy Shaffner , Brett Taylor Cc: Gregory Sutter , Mike Tancsa , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Well, FreeBSDCon has already made it into upside magazine... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from Jeremy Shaffner on Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 07:25:17PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 23 October 1999 at 19:25:17 -0500, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > On Fri, 22 Oct 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: >> On Thu, 21 Oct 1999, Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >>> There are more pointers and comments being posted on the Daily Daemon >>> News, http://daily.daemonnews.org/. Check out the pictures! >> >> Note that while the pictures are great, the downloads are SLOW even on the >> mirror site, which has better connectivity, because the "thumbnails" >> aren't really thumbnails, just rescaled, via HTML, images of the full size >> images. That means instead of loading about (for the pictures from >> the 19th) 200kB worth of thumbnails, you download about 4.5 MB worth of >> stuff. >> >> It would REALLY help if the "thumbnails" were really thumbnails. > > I agree. I would have done as much when I setup the mirror, but: > > 1) gmarco didn't create real thumbnails. > 2) The workstations in the terminal room weren't equipped with the Gimp. You can use xv. Bill Fumerola did exactly that from the terminal^Whub room, and it worked fine. > 3) It was rushed. Nik was posting it, and the 128K wasn't going to cut > it. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 29 10: 2:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65841569B for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA11541; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:02:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAKiayCw; Fri Oct 29 10:01:58 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA16171; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 10:02:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910291702.KAA16171@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:02:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991027072439.B28697@daemon.ninth-circle.org> from "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" at Oct 27, 99 07:24:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Trust me, > > I did NDS for 450 Novell servers nationwide (Netherlands) over > framerelay. The versions we used were around the 6.xx digit and wasn't > really suitable for low-end framerelay links. > > Also, by default the NDS tree's security sucked and now they want to > have Cisco config files in there? No thank you. > > Having said all that though, Boris Popov (hi Boris ;) ) is working up on > getting NDS support in his stuff he committed into the tree in CURRENT. > > Sounds good eh? Interesting. Is this based on the NDS source code for the NetWare for UNIX server that we wrote at Novell, and that Novell released the source code for two years ago? I'm sure my former coworker Mark Muhlestein (who now works for Network Appliance) would be interested in this as well, since he's the guy who did the original Native NetWare version of the code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 29 14:10:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B0315118 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:10:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA69592 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <381A0D2B.7C8BDF8B@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:10:03 +0000 From: Joseph Scott Organization: Water Programs - CSU Sacramento X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Another FreeBSD Con '99 article Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Linux World has an article on FreeBSD Con '99. Very positive article. http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-10/lw-10-bsd.html I also posted it at DDN : http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=181 -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 29 14:50:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from yana.lemis.com (yana.lemis.com [192.109.197.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC92714C37 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com ([199.103.141.157]) by yana.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26418; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 07:20:19 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Message-ID: <19991029174601.08938@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:46:01 -0400 From: Greg Lehey To: Joseph Scott , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another FreeBSD Con '99 article References: <381A0D2B.7C8BDF8B@owp.csus.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <381A0D2B.7C8BDF8B@owp.csus.edu>; from Joseph Scott on Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 09:10:03PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 29 October 1999 at 21:10:03 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > > Linux World has an article on FreeBSD Con '99. Very positive article. > > http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-10/lw-10-bsd.html > > I also posted it at DDN : > > http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=181 Have you looked at this one recently? I get: Warning: 0 is not a MySQL result index in /usr/home/freebsd/daily/view_story.php3 on line 37 Warning: 0 is not a MySQL result index in /usr/home/freebsd/daily/view_story.php3 on line 41 Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 29 14:55: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA8114BF3 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA69706; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <381A179C.7BEBE0FB@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 21:54:36 +0000 From: Joseph Scott Organization: Water Programs - CSU Sacramento X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another FreeBSD Con '99 article References: <381A0D2B.7C8BDF8B@owp.csus.edu> <19991029174601.08938@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Friday, 29 October 1999 at 21:10:03 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > > Linux World has an article on FreeBSD Con '99. Very positive article. > > > > http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-10/lw-10-bsd.html > > > > I also posted it at DDN : > > > > http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=181 > > Have you looked at this one recently? I get: > > Warning: 0 is not a MySQL result index in > /usr/home/freebsd/daily/view_story.php3 on line 37 > > Warning: 0 is not a MySQL result index in > /usr/home/freebsd/daily/view_story.php3 on line 41 I'm not exactly sure what happened, but yes I went back and noticed this. Some where along the line the story id changed and now that link doesn't work. I'll be looking into this to see what happened. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 29 14:57:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217B115132 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 14:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27840; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 17:57:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Greg Lehey Cc: Joseph Scott , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another FreeBSD Con '99 article In-Reply-To: <19991029174601.08938@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think that is because the article is at: http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=179 Chris Coleman Daemon News Editor in Chief http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 29 October 1999 at 21:10:03 +0000, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > > Linux World has an article on FreeBSD Con '99. Very positive article. > > > > http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-1999-10/lw-10-bsd.html > > > > I also posted it at DDN : > > > > http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=181 > > Have you looked at this one recently? I get: > > > Warning: 0 is not a MySQL result index in > /usr/home/freebsd/daily/view_story.php3 on line 37 > > Warning: 0 is not a MySQL result index in > /usr/home/freebsd/daily/view_story.php3 on line 41 > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 29 15: 5:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1378C15019 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA69757; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 15:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <381A1A33.4C9D7833@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 22:05:39 +0000 From: Joseph Scott Organization: Water Programs - CSU Sacramento X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another FreeBSD Con '99 article References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > I think that is because the article is at: > > http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=179 > Yep, my bad, apparently this story had already been submitted to DDN, so mine got deleted. Sorry about that. -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 30 4:15: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lion.butya.kz (butya-gw.butya.kz [194.87.112.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD7514DEB for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 04:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bp@butya.kz) Received: from bp (helo=localhost) by lion.butya.kz with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11hWRZ-000DsA-00; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:13:09 +0700 Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 18:13:08 +0700 (ALMST) From: Boris Popov To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , wes@softweyr.com, syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Need anti-exchange ammunition In-Reply-To: <199910291702.KAA16171@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 29 Oct 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Also, by default the NDS tree's security sucked and now they want to > > have Cisco config files in there? No thank you. > > > > Having said all that though, Boris Popov (hi Boris ;) ) is working up on > > getting NDS support in his stuff he committed into the tree in CURRENT. > > > > Sounds good eh? > > Interesting. > > Is this based on the NDS source code for the NetWare for UNIX > server that we wrote at Novell, and that Novell released the > source code for two years ago? No, I'm dig it from other sources. Can you point me at this code ? -- Boris Popov http://www.chat.ru/~rbp/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message