From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Oct 5 14:44: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D16F151E6 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA01630 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:43:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA21594 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:43:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from nomis.simon-shapiro.org (nomis.simon-shapiro.org [209.86.126.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF55914E77 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 96330 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 21:42:17 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO simon-shapiro.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 21:42:17 -0000 Message-ID: <37FA70B9.B5DBA345@simon-shapiro.org> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 17:42:17 -0400 From: Simon Shapiro as Himself Organization: Simon's Garage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Minor Device numbers Content-Type: text/plain; charset= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hope this is the correct forum. If not let me know. Am struggling with mapping device numbers to IOPs in i2o; * There can be any number of I/O Processors (IOPs) in a system. Think of an IOP as a device driver, NOT as a controller, nor as a device. IOPs have device drivers running on them which control devices. * Each IOP can have any number of devices attached to it. * Each IOP can have any type of device attached to it. It is a bit like SCSI in this sense. * Part of the boot process is to inquire each IOP of their devices and then tell each IOP which devices all the IOPs have (IOPs talk to each other, without O/S intervention). This leads me to a structure where I have a list of IOPs, in which each IOP has an array of devices. I cannot have a list of devices, as the i2o standard specifies an array with a header. The array can be redefined at any time so that dvices can come and go (as far as IOPs are concerned), How the O/S deals with an vaporized or materialized device is outside the spec. Now is my problem. When I get (in open, close, strategy, etc.) a dev_t argument, I want to quickly extract the IOP number from it. In other words, the device number must be unique across IOPs and somehow contain the IOP identity. Problem is that according to disklabel.h (which presumably covers ``only disks'', there are only 9 bits for unit'' (512 unique unit numbers). ANy which way I slice it, this is not enough. Assume a system with 4 DPT PM2755F IOPs, each with 2 fiber channels. This is a total of 8 channels, or over a thousand devices. In reality there would not be as many devices on most systems, but assume 4 IOPs for disks, 2 for Networking, and 2 more for something else (video, whatever.). This gives me 8 IOPS, which means 3 bits for IOP number, and 6 bits for device or no more than 64 devices per IOP. Not enough. 4xPIII-600 can do lots of useful stuff on 100 drives. They may NEED hundreds of drives to max the CPUs. I am open to any polite suggestion, but my inclination is to recommend 32bit major devices where the lower 8 bits do exactly what they do today, and the upper 24 are as per driver. The problem with that is that the major number is stuck in the middle of the minor. Actually was the upper byte on the PDP-11 :-). To solve that one would need either separate arguments, or turn dev_t to a 64bit integer. -- Sincerely Yours, Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG 404.644.6401 Simon Shapiro Unwritten code has no bugs and executes at twice the speed of mouth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Oct 5 22: 9:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2563C156E4 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:09:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06431 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:09:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA23501 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 07:09:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16272156DF for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkoshy@FreeBSD.org) Received: (from jkoshy@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id WAA21602; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:09:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkoshy@FreeBSD.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:09:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Message-Id: <199910060509.WAA21602@freefall.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Cc: Subject: how do we support internationalization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Some internationalization related questions: How does FreeBSD (BSD4.4) support internationalization? How does one go about adding a new language to the base system? What are the issues to be taken care of? I did make a start with man -k locale, but the tools seem somewhat different from their SysV counterparts. Any references that could speed up my learning curve would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Koshy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Oct 6 5: 0: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88711527F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 05:00:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17028 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:59:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA24921 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:59:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC7715130 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p20-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.149]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id UAA02976; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:57:55 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FB29E3.94672E74@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 19:52:19 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Shapiro as Himself Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minor Device numbers References: <37FA70B9.B5DBA345@simon-shapiro.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simon Shapiro as Himself wrote: > > I am open to any polite suggestion, but my inclination > is to recommend 32bit major devices where the lower > 8 bits do exactly what they do today, and the upper > 24 are as per driver. The problem with that is that > the major number is stuck in the middle of the minor. > Actually was the upper byte on the PDP-11 :-). > To solve that one would need either separate arguments, > or turn dev_t to a 64bit integer. Well, I'd like devfs people to correct me if I'm incorrect, but... It is my impression that devfs solves your problem, to a certain extent. As devices get their numbers as they come and go, there is no need to reserve ranges to specific devices. I wouldn't mind someone taking this opportunity to explain exactly how devfs deals with this. :-) Now, the main point of this message... the solution to all of dev's problem is devfs (axiom). As a result, nobody is going to help with work-arounds to your problem, since the correct solution is devfs. Or, in other words, until devfs comes along, you are not getting a solution to your problem. :-( Furthermore, I'm not sure devfs/slice can get into the tree before RELENG_4 comes along, and that would delay it, and anything depending on it, until 5.0-RELEASE! Frankly, that's a scenario I'd rather avoid. I think we'll be seriously impaired if we delay devfs further. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Oct 6 9:49:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9641570E for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22425 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:49:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA26749 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:49:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from nomis.simon-shapiro.org (nomis.simon-shapiro.org [209.86.126.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BFC515708 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:48:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shimon@simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 6707 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 16:48:53 -0000 Received: from localhost.simon-shapiro.org (HELO simon-shapiro.org) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.simon-shapiro.org with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 16:48:53 -0000 Message-ID: <37FB7D75.1A413D00@simon-shapiro.org> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 12:48:53 -0400 From: Simon Shapiro as Himself Organization: Simon's Garage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Minor Device numbers References: <37FA70B9.B5DBA345@simon-shapiro.org> <37FB29E3.94672E74@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Simon Shapiro as Himself wrote: > > > > I am open to any polite suggestion, but my inclination > > is to recommend 32bit major devices where the lower > > 8 bits do exactly what they do today, and the upper > > 24 are as per driver. The problem with that is that > > the major number is stuck in the middle of the minor. > > Actually was the upper byte on the PDP-11 :-). > > To solve that one would need either separate arguments, > > or turn dev_t to a 64bit integer. > > Well, I'd like devfs people to correct me if I'm incorrect, but... > > It is my impression that devfs solves your problem, to a certain > extent. As devices get their numbers as they come and go, there is > no need to reserve ranges to specific devices. I wouldn't mind > someone taking this opportunity to explain exactly how devfs deals > with this. :-) This does not help production people like me who want 3.x support and many more who actually want 2.2 support. > Now, the main point of this message... the solution to all of dev's > problem is devfs (axiom). As a result, nobody is going to help with > work-arounds to your problem, since the correct solution is devfs. > Or, in other words, until devfs comes along, you are not getting a > solution to your problem. :-( > > Furthermore, I'm not sure devfs/slice can get into the tree before > RELENG_4 comes along, and that would delay it, and anything > depending on it, until 5.0-RELEASE! Frankly, that's a scenario I'd > rather avoid. I think we'll be seriously impaired if we delay devfs > further. > > -- > Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) > dcs@newsguy.com > dcs@freebsd.org > > "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a > conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of > allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself > a little more?" -- Sincerely Yours, Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG 404.644.6401 Simon Shapiro Unwritten code has no bugs and executes at twice the speed of mouth To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 7:23:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C740E1500B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:23:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11011 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:23:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA43003 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:23:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD83C1500B; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:23:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p17-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.146]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA20497; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:22:59 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:08:34 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Evans Cc: committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: /etc/make.conf abuse References: <199906171027.UAA03438@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [From my cvs-all archives:] Bruce Evans wrote: > > Right. /etc/make.conf is for configuring make(1), not for configuring > /usr/src. It is already abused too much for the latter. Can we consider stopping this abuse? It doesn't look like rocket science to read another file for the specific purpose of configuring /usr/src, by inserting include lines in the appropriate files at /usr/share/mk. Perhaps I'm missing something? And, assuming wide opposition does not arise (though this DOES look like a bike shed), would such a file be better located at /usr/src or /etc? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 7:45:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 202EF15826 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11296 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:44:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA43225 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:44:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from relay.ucb.crimea.ua (relay.ucb.crimea.ua [212.110.138.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 481271537D; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:43:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ru@ucb.crimea.ua) Received: (from ru@localhost) by relay.ucb.crimea.ua (8.9.3/8.9.3/UCB) id RAA90336; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:38:10 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from ru) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:38:10 +0300 From: Ruslan Ermilov To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Message-ID: <19991008173810.E76996@relay.ucb.crimea.ua> References: <199906171027.UAA03438@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:08:34PM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:08:34PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > [From my cvs-all archives:] > > Bruce Evans wrote: > > > > Right. /etc/make.conf is for configuring make(1), not for configuring > > /usr/src. It is already abused too much for the latter. > > Can we consider stopping this abuse? It doesn't look like rocket > science to read another file for the specific purpose of configuring > /usr/src, by inserting include lines in the appropriate files at > /usr/share/mk. Perhaps I'm missing something? > Examples :-) > And, assuming wide opposition does not arise (though this DOES look > like a bike shed), would such a file be better located at /usr/src > or /etc? > /etc seems more appropriate, since it is isolated from CVS, while /usr/src is not. -- Ruslan Ermilov Sysadmin and DBA of the ru@ucb.crimea.ua United Commercial Bank, ru@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD committer, +380.652.247.647 Simferopol, Ukraine http://www.FreeBSD.org The Power To Serve http://www.oracle.com Enabling The Information Age To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 9:18:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7611587F for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12403 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:18:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA43770 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:18:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7531E14FC2; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20545; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:17:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA67936; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:17:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910081617.KAA67936@harmony.village.org> To: Ruslan Ermilov Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 17:38:10 +0300." <19991008173810.E76996@relay.ucb.crimea.ua> References: <19991008173810.E76996@relay.ucb.crimea.ua> <199906171027.UAA03438@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:17:43 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <19991008173810.E76996@relay.ucb.crimea.ua> Ruslan Ermilov writes: : /etc seems more appropriate, since it is isolated from CVS, while : /usr/src is not. I think /usr/src, for all valuses of /usr/src, is the right place to do this. Do it like the ports tree does things now. However, I'd be loathe to force people to set BSDSRCDIR when building the system just to get this. It would allow people to have different build trees with different settings on the same machine, which is desirable. eg I have a beefy server machine that gets everything, I have a client that gets a subset or build with certain compile time things turned off. The client is so slow things get built on the server for it... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 10:31:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2840814A1B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13459 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:31:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA44192 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:31:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B40715840; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:30:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13430; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:29:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA44159; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:29:43 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:29:43 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Bruce Evans , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Message-ID: <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199906171027.UAA03438@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:08:34PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Bruce Evans wrote: > > Right. /etc/make.conf is for configuring make(1), not for configuring > > /usr/src. It is already abused too much for the latter. > > Can we consider stopping this abuse? It doesn't look like rocket > science to read another file for the specific purpose of configuring > /usr/src, by inserting include lines in the appropriate files at > /usr/share/mk. Perhaps I'm missing something? > > And, assuming wide opposition does not arise (though this DOES look > like a bike shed), would such a file be better located at /usr/src > or /etc? IMO: Neither. It should be located in src, whereever you check that out, so you can do several different builds with different configurations. It would be nice if it was possible to specify the name of the file on the build command line, so you could do several differently configured builds from the same source tree. I don't think this would be too difficult. In an ideal world, we would be able to do a lot more configuring of the build than today. If we want to move in that direction, it seems natural to do the entire build by doing something like # cd /usr/src # make CONFIGFILE= buildworld # make CONFIGFILE= installworld or similar (e.g, with a special command instead of make, and just the config file name as the parameter), and the below is written with this as a view of the world. * We would be able to add and remove parts of the build from the config file. I've added some infrastructure that should be usable for this to bsd.subdir.mk previously (with the intent of making it easier to create a configurable build) * We would be able to set variables for each part of the build, not just overall. * We would be able to build the kernel as part of the normal build (with configuration), using the build tools built as part of the world. * We would be able to re-use the parts of a previous build that matched the present configuration, to avoid having to do full rebuilds. Note that these are in an ideal world; these are by no means requirements, but moving in a direction which could eventually accomplish these would be nice. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 18:30:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3AB153BC for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:30:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA03334 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:30:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA46891 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:30:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C5F1589A; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA63667; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:29:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:29:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Bruce Evans , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse In-Reply-To: <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:08:34PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > Bruce Evans wrote: > > > Right. /etc/make.conf is for configuring make(1), not for configuring > > > /usr/src. It is already abused too much for the latter. > > > > Can we consider stopping this abuse? It doesn't look like rocket > > science to read another file for the specific purpose of configuring > > /usr/src, by inserting include lines in the appropriate files at > > /usr/share/mk. Perhaps I'm missing something? > > > > And, assuming wide opposition does not arise (though this DOES look > > like a bike shed), would such a file be better located at /usr/src > > or /etc? > > IMO: Neither. It should be located in src, whereever you check that > out, so you can do several different builds with different > configurations. It would be nice if it was possible to specify the > name of the file on the build command line, so you could do several > differently configured builds from the same source tree. I don't > think this would be too difficult. I agree with Eivind; seeing as our make has a nice way to include files (such as a /usr/src/make.local) only if they exist, allowing an automatic place for users to do whatever they wish, with no interference from cvs, why don't we just have a little include in /usr/src/Makefile, with the proviso that anyone who makes any build complaint had better darn well be able to say they did their test build with an empty make.local, or be willing to have everyone inspect (and laugh at) the silly thing. Make.conf should not have extra pollution, it's polluted enough as it is, and this change at least seems to be pretty innocent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C programming, Electronics, 213 Lakeside Dr. Apt. T-1 | communications, and signal processing. Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 19:10:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3AF9152CC for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:10:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA05071 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 04:10:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA50353 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 04:10:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD40152CC; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:10:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: from current1.whiste.com (current1.whistle.com [207.76.205.22]) by alpo.whistle.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA34303; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:06:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: arch@freebsd.org Cc: mckusick@mckusick.com, core@freebsd.org Subject: The eventual fate of BLOCK devices. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There has been lot of movement on the device interface within the kernel recently. One of the things that has been going on is the removal of block device references. I spoke with Kirk for a point of view an dhe indicated that historically they were an accident and that he thought that they could probably be gotten rid of. to quote him: --------------- Q: Can you give us some hints as to how you envision the world? A: Every device is a character device. ------------------------- DG has also given an opinion on this topic.. which is: --------------------------- Well, for one thing, the block-buffered device existed originally because it was the mechanism that the system used to cache filesystem data. In 4.4BSD this is no longer the way it works (caching is file based), so its original purpose of existing is gone now. Second, support for device based caching causes a lot of internal problems with buffer aliasing/cache coherency whenever someone opens the device and starts using it when the underlying filesystem is also mounted. Third, since writes to buffered devices are asynchronous, there is no way to know when/if you get an I/O error (e.g. floppies or other removable media), so the most common use of the device is much better served by using the character device. The general feeling of both myself and Kirk McKusick is that the blocking/buffering should be done at the application level and not by the kernel and that the block/buffered device should go away. -DG ----------------------------- PHK has been moving steadily in this direction to remove as many dependencies within the kernel on block devices as possible. The question is, When did the decision to do so become official? I don't believe it has been a stated official decision yet and so in order to put some clarity into the air over this I'd like to launch a PURELY TECHNICAL discussion on the topic. Here are some starters. 1/ block device writes have to be synchrnous or the user doesn't get write errors. 1A/ if they are not synchronous, errors need to be coped with in some other manner. 2/ People with old UNIX experience expect to be able to do unalligned transfers on block devices. 3/ DEVFS can cope just fine with block and char devices (I include this because DEVFS has been used as an argument for removing them) 4/ Most of the block buffering code in the kernel will remain due to the VM and VFS systems. 5/ New users don't tend to understand the rather strange distinctions between BLK and CHR devices. Some people consider having both POLA and others consider having only one POLA. Linux had til just recently, only BLK disk devices. They just aded CHR disk devices but I don't know if they created a whole second calss of device to do so. (I doubt it) 6/ It should be possible to make an overlay device (similar to the way ccd works), that supplies buffered characteristics to a disk. This may be a different minor number or a differnt major number.. but be a CHR type device. I'd like ot hear soem real thoughts and reasons here.. We need an official position on this or things will just get nasty. julian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 19:59:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F1D15000 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA05269 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 04:59:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA50479 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 04:59:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50DB15000; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22537; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:59:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA71301; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:59:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910090259.UAA71301@harmony.village.org> To: Julian Elischer Subject: Re: The eventual fate of BLOCK devices. Cc: arch@freebsd.org, mckusick@mckusick.com, core@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:06:30 PDT." References: Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 20:59:29 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message Julian Elischer writes: : The question is, When did the decision to do so become official? My guess would be the moment that DG said they can go. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 23:13:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B2F158BE for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06324 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:13:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA50934 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:13:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE73815140; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:13:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from d146.syd2.zeta.org.au (beefcake.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.12]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22805; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:14:21 +1000 Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:12:10 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-Sender: bde@alphplex.bde.org To: Warner Losh Cc: Ruslan Ermilov , "Daniel C. Sobral" , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse In-Reply-To: <199910081617.KAA67936@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Warner Losh wrote: > I think /usr/src, for all valuses of /usr/src, is the right place to > do this. Do it like the ports tree does things now. I.e., it should work in in src tree, and in as many src subtrees as possible. > However, I'd be > loathe to force people to set BSDSRCDIR when building the system just > to get this. It would allow people to have different build trees with > different settings on the same machine, which is desirable. eg I have I agree. The problem is that the default configuration files and .mk files are hard to locate when building deep in a src tree or in an incomplete tree (especially when the incomplete tree doesn't contain the files). The ".." searching hacks that I added to bsd.kmod.mk can probably be improved. They currently know too much about the layout of sys/modules and search up through only 2 or 3 ".."'s. Naively searching higher is worse than useless since it is too easy to search out of the tree and end up in a different tree (a different tree is more likely to have wrong defaults than the standard places). This can be improved by putting marker files at critical places in the tree (especially at the top), so that a searcher can know if it found a critical place. If no critical place is found before reaching "/", then use standard defaults (/usr/share/mk, etc.). For traversing trees, the search should only be done at the top level, only if the user hasn't specified the root of the src tree that contains the defaults. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 23:18: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3218E158CB for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06353 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:18:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA50964 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:18:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95888158BE; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:17:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p20-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.149]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id PAA27832; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 15:15:35 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FEDD1B.24FDF38E@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 15:13:47 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuck Robey Cc: Eivind Eklund , Bruce Evans , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chuck Robey wrote: > > I agree with Eivind; seeing as our make has a nice way to include files > (such as a /usr/src/make.local) only if they exist, allowing an automatic > place for users to do whatever they wish, with no interference from cvs, > why don't we just have a little include in /usr/src/Makefile, with the > proviso that anyone who makes any build complaint had better darn well be > able to say they did their test build with an empty make.local, or be > willing to have everyone inspect (and laugh at) the silly thing. /usr/src/Makefile is a bad place, as it would not affect subdirs. I'm inclined to have a /usr/src/make.conf (world.conf? :), included by the mk files, with path and name overridable by environment variables. > Make.conf should not have extra pollution, it's polluted enough as it is, > and this change at least seems to be pretty innocent. The idea is removing anything pertaining to /usr/src stuff from /etc/make.conf. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Oct 8 23:53:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884DF14FF6 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:53:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06524 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:53:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA51024 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:53:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B31D614FF6; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:53:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA09799; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:53:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: arch@freebsd.org, mckusick@mckusick.com, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The eventual fate of BLOCK devices. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:06:30 PDT." Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 08:53:04 +0200 Message-ID: <9797.939451984@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My position on this is as earlier stated: The use of block vs. char to decide if buffering should be used or not, leads to complexity and bites users who are used to Linux. I think that buffering behaviour should be specifically enabled with an ioctl(), and be reset to unbuffered on close. Since we currently don't have a defined semantics for mmap() on disk like devices, implmenting buffered behaviour through mmap() can be done in addition to the above mentioned ioctl. The migration path: 1. Implement an ioctl(DIOC_SCACHE) to enable buffered behaviour. 2. Make access to /dev/foo and /dev/rfoo from userland act the same. 3. Collapse behaviour of VBLK and VCHR vnodes in the kernel, so that they act all the same, apart from stat(2), mknod(2) and nfs exports. 4. Remove the block major numbers from device drivers, substituting a static, recording the, from this point forward, historical mapping from bmaj to cmaj. 5. Fix userland progams which know too much about blk/chr devices: mount, fdisk, fsck, newfs etc. etc. 6. Change MAKEDEV and sysinstall to only create char devices. 7. Change sysinstall to not create /dev/rfoo device nodes. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 0:25:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935E8158FD for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06713 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:25:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA51159 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:25:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC74158FD; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bde@zeta.org.au) Received: from d146.syd2.zeta.org.au (beefcake.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.12]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24992; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:26:52 +1000 Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:24:43 +1000 (EST) From: Bruce Evans X-Sender: bde@alphplex.bde.org To: Julian Elischer Cc: arch@freebsd.org, mckusick@mckusick.com, core@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The eventual fate of BLOCK devices. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > PHK has been moving steadily in this direction to remove as many > dependencies within the kernel on block devices as possible. > The question is, When did the decision to do so become official? Never. > I don't believe it has been a stated official decision yet and so in order > to put some clarity into the air over this I'd like to launch a PURELY > TECHNICAL discussion on the topic. > > Here are some starters. > > 1/ block device writes have to be synchrnous or the user doesn't get > write errors. Block devices should be implmented properly or the user doesn't get write errors. A proper implementation is quite close. Write errors should be reported on last-close and on fsync(). They already are as far as I can see, modulo the bugs that (in -current) VOP_FSYNC() = ffs_fsync() sometimes hangs instead of returning a write error and vinvalbuf() sometimes panics instead of returning a write error. The bugs are different and worse in RELENG_3. The bugs are different and more benign in RELENG_2_2 (write errors are ignored). Note that the bugs have very little to do with specfs. All specfs can reasonably do is kill the endless retries at a suitable time, probably after calling vinvalbuf() in last-close. > 1A/ if they are not synchronous, errors need to be coped with in some > other manner. Normal error handling suffices, modulo bugs. > 2/ People with old UNIX experience expect to be able to do unalligned > transfers on block devices. > 3/ DEVFS can cope just fine with block and char devices > (I include this because DEVFS has been used as an argument for > removing them) Correct. > 4/ Most of the block buffering code in the kernel will remain due to > the VM and VFS systems. Well, if the Nth rewrite of vm wants to drop support for buffers in vfs, then use of buffers for block devices shouldn't stop it. > 5/ New users don't tend to understand the rather strange distinctions > between BLK and CHR devices. Some people consider having both POLA and This is an argument for removing character (disk) devices, since most new users will be from Linux where block (disk) devices were the only ones available until recently. Block devices have always worked better in Linux. E.g., media change is detected for floppies, and buffers remain valid across last-close, until media change. The latter behaviour can be not what is wanted (extra ioctls are needed to discard the buffers), but it is often useful. > others consider having only one POLA. Linux had til just recently, > only BLK disk devices. They just aded CHR disk devices but I don't > know if they created a whole second calss of device to do so. (I doubt it) > 6/ It should be possible to make an overlay device (similar to the way > ccd works), that supplies buffered characteristics to a disk. This may > be a different minor number or a differnt major number.. but be a CHR > type device. This would involve needless duplicatication of half of the buffer cache implementation (maybe the simple half) unless the buffer cache goes away. Bruce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 2:12:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C13815075 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:12:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07151 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:12:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA51411 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:12:37 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5001B15069; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 02:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.20]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA49BD; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:12:29 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28126; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:49:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:49:02 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Eivind Eklund Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Bruce Evans , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Message-ID: <19991009104902.F28001@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <199906171027.UAA03438@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991008 20:00], Eivind Eklund (eivind@freebsd.org) wrote: >In an ideal world, we would be able to do a lot more configuring of >the build than today. In the ongoing porting of FreeBSD to other architectures, PPC, MIPS, ARM, and SPARC come to mind, we also need something which enables developers without access to either of these platforms to at least try and see if they can build this. Dare I even touch the subject of cross-compilation in association with /usr/src and it's proposed new configuration files and knobs? -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Like cures like... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 7:16: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E97814BD2 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08862 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:16:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA52103 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:16:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C74B14BD2; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:15:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p25-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.122]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA21195; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:15:44 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FF4DA2.629AABA6@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:13:54 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Eivind Eklund , Bruce Evans , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse References: <199906171027.UAA03438@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> <19991009104902.F28001@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > In the ongoing porting of FreeBSD to other architectures, PPC, MIPS, > ARM, and SPARC come to mind, we also need something which enables > developers without access to either of these platforms to at least try > and see if they can build this. > > Dare I even touch the subject of cross-compilation in association with > /usr/src and it's proposed new configuration files and knobs? You can touch whatever subject you want. I'm going to try to separate the make.conf information, and then I'll submit the patches for review. People will think they are so horrible that there will be calls for immediate removal of my commit rights, less I continue to shame that august body with my presence, or inflict any damage in our cvs tree. BUT, while they get flamed, people might just spend 2% of their messages explaining how they should have been done instead, and a viable patch result from that. THEN you can add whatever knob you can get through bde. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 12:29:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85ADD1545C for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10949 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 21:29:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA53656 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 21:29:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A0714DB5; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:29:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA18201; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:54:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:54:03 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Chuck Robey Cc: Eivind Eklund , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Bruce Evans , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Message-ID: <19991009175403.A54620@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:29:47PM -0400 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:29:47PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > IMO: Neither. It should be located in src, whereever you check that > > out, so you can do several different builds with different > > configurations. It would be nice if it was possible to specify the > > name of the file on the build command line, so you could do several > > differently configured builds from the same source tree. I don't > > think this would be too difficult. > > I agree with Eivind; seeing as our make has a nice way to include files > (such as a /usr/src/make.local) One snag with that. Sometimes a remedy for fixing a build problem is # rm -rf /usr/src and start again. I know that's probably ingrained in a lot of people's fingers, and they treat /usr/src as an expendable file system. Suddenly we'll be putting a config file there. Perhaps /usr/local/etc/make.conf would be better? Or at least a variable (which can be defined in /etc/make.conf) which points to the file, so that the admin can easily set local policy. N -- PS: Sorry for the delay in replying. What with work, buying a house, moving in to the house, fixing the plumbing in the house, and paying the bills, I've been a little busy recently. I'm back to e-mail now, and catching up. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 13:54: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413D214C26 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA11535 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:53:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA54153 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:53:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBB0914C26; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA71147; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:53:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:53:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Nik Clayton Cc: Eivind Eklund , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Bruce Evans , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse In-Reply-To: <19991009175403.A54620@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 Oct 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:29:47PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > > > IMO: Neither. It should be located in src, whereever you check that > > > out, so you can do several different builds with different > > > configurations. It would be nice if it was possible to specify the > > > name of the file on the build command line, so you could do several > > > differently configured builds from the same source tree. I don't > > > think this would be too difficult. > > > > I agree with Eivind; seeing as our make has a nice way to include files > > (such as a /usr/src/make.local) > > One snag with that. Sometimes a remedy for fixing a build problem is > > # rm -rf /usr/src > > and start again. I know that's probably ingrained in a lot of people's > fingers, and they treat /usr/src as an expendable file system. Suddenly > we'll be putting a config file there. > > Perhaps /usr/local/etc/make.conf would be better? Or at least a variable > (which can be defined in /etc/make.conf) which points to the file, so that > the admin can easily set local policy. Where do you stick your kernel config files? I have mine in sys/i386/conf (for my i386 machine), I back it up regularly, and always remember not to scrag it. Until we get a working union filesystem (what a day!) I think I don't want to have a spot outside the tree to worry about. I think we can't allow a /usr/local, for the reason that everyone does not have a /usr/local (I know for a fact that /opt/local is used by many). The ports system uses $(PREFIX), I guess you could use that, but I'd rather have it in the tree. > > N > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include C programming, Electronics, 213 Lakeside Dr. Apt. T-1 | communications, and signal processing. Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic.mat.net: FreeBSD-current(i386) and (301) 220-2114 | jaunt.mat.net : FreeBSD-current(Alpha) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 21:29:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5EF14D2D for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 21:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14164 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 06:29:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id GAA56368 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 06:29:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077CF14D28; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 21:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27338; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:28:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id WAA79115; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:28:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910100428.WAA79115@harmony.village.org> To: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Cc: Chuck Robey , Eivind Eklund , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Bruce Evans , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 Oct 1999 17:54:03 BST." <19991009175403.A54620@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19991009175403.A54620@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 22:28:58 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <19991009175403.A54620@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Nik Clayton writes: : Perhaps /usr/local/etc/make.conf would be better? Or at least a variable : (which can be defined in /etc/make.conf) which points to the file, so that : the admin can easily set local policy. How is that different from /etc/make.conf? No, an in tree method is needed, even if it isn't the only one? Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 22:26:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF8515196 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:25:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14569 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:25:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA56462 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:25:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B2115181 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27434; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:25:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA79286; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:24:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910100524.XAA79286@harmony.village.org> To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Cc: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 Oct 1999 10:49:02 +0200." <19991009104902.F28001@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19991009104902.F28001@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <199906171027.UAA03438@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <37FDFAE2.3A7E312B@newsguy.com> <19991008192943.S71340@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:24:55 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [[ Removed committers ]] In message <19991009104902.F28001@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: : Dare I even touch the subject of cross-compilation in association with : /usr/src and it's proposed new configuration files and knobs? Yes. That's why I want the config IN /usr/src, for all values of /usr/src. That way I can have ~imp/FreeBSD/src for the sources that live on my system, and ~imp/FreeBSD/mips/src for my mips tree. And they can have two different setups. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Oct 9 22:33:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE62E154D5 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:33:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14631 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:33:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA56487 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 07:33:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D14215196; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27450; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:32:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id XAA79326; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:32:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199910100532.XAA79326@harmony.village.org> To: Garrett Wollman Subject: Re: /etc/make.conf abuse Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , committers@freebsd.org, arch@freebsd.org Reply-To: arch@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 Oct 1999 21:23:36 EDT." <199910100123.VAA75785@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> References: <199910100123.VAA75785@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <37FEDD1B.24FDF38E@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 23:32:59 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <199910100123.VAA75785@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Garrett Wollman writes: : Compromise: /etc/bsd.conf.mk and (logically or) $(SRCTOP)/conf.mk. ... : ----/usr/src/Makefile.inc0 : .if exists(${.CURDIR}/conf.mk) : MK_ENV+= CONF_MK=${.CURDIR}/conf.mk : CONF_MK=${.CURDIR}/conf.mk : .endif : ------------------------- If the intent is to have only make world and friend be configured this way, but not a simple make elsewhere in the tree, this will work. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message