From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 1:39:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005AC14EA0; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 01:39:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from giovannelli.it (ppp-massa52-64-56.iol.it [212.52.64.56]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05841; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:36:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-ID: <379ACD46.69BB36E4@giovannelli.it> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 10:39:34 +0200 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ports@freebsd.org, dirk@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is there a mysql user that want to save a FreeBSD box ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for crossposting in ports, chat ad to mantainer itself... but all my previous email on this topic were not answered, but I really need a quick , very quick answer... Hi, I am doing a project for my university and I need to use a database. We worked great with PostreSQL, but now it has a big limitation on the query size (8kb) and we have to add text records (via Web) of about 70-100kb so we have to looking for other options. We arrive to MySql that seems to not suffers from this limitation and I have installed it, but our port seems not able to make the MySql socket /tmp/mysql.sock at all... We need that because the product we are using for manage the database remotely is HeiTML and it needs it to work. The bad news is that the LINUX rpm package works well and it create the right socket. Linux [root@seaside /]# find . -name "*.sock" -print ./var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock [root@seaside /]# FreeBSD seaside:/# find . -name "*.sock" -print seaside:/# and to make thing manually : seaside:/# /usr/local/etc/rc.d/mysql-server.sh mysql seaside:/# ll /tmp/ total 1 drwxrwxrwt 2 root wheel 512 Jul 25 09:48 vi.recover seaside:/# seaside:/# ps -auxc | grep mysql mysql 438 0.0 1.4 11008 1856 p2 I 10:33AM 0:00.03 mysqld Now on tuesday perhaps I have to wipe my FreeBSD (freebsd.ds.unifi.it) box (it was the first in a Linux jungle, and perhaps :-( also the last) and installed another Linux box. It was a very annoying thing because I make a big advocacy to FreeBSD there and I think I can continue to replace Linux boxes with FreeBSD ones, but ... Probably is a my fault, and what seems a big problem is a little thing, but the default port installed by a plain make install in the port dir make this situation and I was not able to correct this. I really tried to change the configure args by adding the line to explicit set the path of the socket but also that is not working... I then dig in the script that starts the server (/usr/local/bin/safe_mysqld)and I found : #Default communication ports #MYSQL_TCP_PORT=3306 if test -z "$MYSQL_UNIX_PORT" then MYSQL_UNIX_PORT="/tmp/mysql.sock" export MYSQL_UNIX_PORT fi #export MYSQL_TCP_PORT that seems to handle the socket, but probably make the right thing, becaus e the socket is never created... Please let me know... Thanks for attention... -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 3:59:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FCAE14D32 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 03:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA07926 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:58:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id NAA49303; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:14:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990725131417.45718@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:14:17 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Unisys backing NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI -- I'm ignoring the marketspeak, but does anybody have more info on CMP (pointers, etc..) -----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<----- UNISYS BEEFS UP WINDOWS NT SERVER LINE Unisys is preparing to release its Windows NT server computer, which the company had delayed due to concerns of consumer distraction over Y2K issues. The server was due for release at the end of 1998, but it was intentionally delayed to ensure that it would not be overlooked among Y2K preparations. The servers, which will be introduced at the end of October or early November, feature cellular microprocessing, or CMP, architecture that allows up to 32 processors to be used simultaneously in a single server. This is eight times as many processors as most top-end Intel servers can handle, making the Unisys product an attractive offering for companies that require powerful performance. CMP also allows a single server to run multiple operating systems, such as Windows NT and Linux, at once. Analysts have noted that this feature will make CMP an efficient and economical alternative for many companies. (C|Net 07/20/99) -----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<-----8<----- -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 7:53:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hermit.bcs.nostrum.com (hermit.bcs.nostrum.com [206.28.8.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DBFD1516E; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:53:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daved@nostrum.com) Received: (from daved@localhost) by hermit.bcs.nostrum.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA54028; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:52:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:52:23 -0500 From: Dave Duchscher To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: ports@FreeBSD.ORG, dirk@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is there a mysql user that want to save a FreeBSD box ? Message-ID: <19990725095223.A53952@hermit.bcs.nostrum.com> References: <379ACD46.69BB36E4@giovannelli.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <379ACD46.69BB36E4@giovannelli.it>; from Gianmarco Giovannelli on Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 10:39:34AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Sorry for crossposting in ports, chat ad to mantainer itself... but > all my previous email on this topic were not answered, but I really > need a quick , very quick answer... Then you should probably read the supplied docs. From the online manual: http://www.tcx.se/Manual_chapter/manual_Installing.html#FreeBSD http://www.tcx.se/Manual_chapter/manual_Installing.html#MIT-pthreads * MIT-pthreads doesn't support the `AF_UNIX' protocol used to implement Unix sockets. This means that if you compile using MIT-pthreads, all connections must be made using TCP/IP (which is a little slower). If you find after building *MySQL* that you cannot connect to the local server, it may be that your client is attempting to connect to `localhost' using a Unix socket as the default. Try making a TCP/IP connection with `mysql' by using a host option (`-h' or `--host') to specify the local host name explicitly. The default on FreeBSD is to compile MySQL with MIT-pthreads. When using the port, there is an option to use native threads which I believe does not have this limitation. Here is the message that is printed when you make the port: You may set NATIVE_THREADS (make NATIVE_THREADS=yes) to compile mysql with the native FreeBSD threads (libc_r). Warning: There are still some bugs in libc_r which prevent 'mysqladmin shutdown' from working properly and killing mysqld might not work. DaveD --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use MessageID: kSwspWwCu7QMad+dmOhYanNQmghA+212 iQCVAwUBN5sWk/sJYFdBGj/VAQFe7gQAn/FJtt1jaxtOMfPjlNT0nZYXdWuVyczm KVP5T8TQ2QEngrWu7D9cY43/NlhPnt8I+aOYjQ9jxzBkwY3pi+HqYKhK5XY43Xen vqzOexa/s9yGQUqzo+hbAaQosf3DDnQ5W+/y8xPBy2AoD6+QG2no7HnMiGktYrNm OJjfxNhOZcg= =ApCm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cWoXeonUoKmBZSoM-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 8:29:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3ACE314CCD for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:29:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from summoner@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 21684 invoked by alias); 25 Jul 1999 15:27:14 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 21654 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jul 1999 15:27:12 -0000 Received: from edsl209.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.175.209) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 1999 15:27:12 -0000 Message-ID: <379B2CCE.8AA96D86@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 08:27:10 -0700 From: Summoner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT References: <19990725131417.45718@ns.int.ftf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.marketplace.unisys.com/ent/cmparch.pdf To put it simply, a CMP system is a (2x2)x2x8 32-way cluster-in-a-box with lots of inter-machine shared memory, 96 PCI slots, the ability to run 8 OSes at once, and a crossbar switch that would give any hardware junkie wet dreams. I want two. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 9:22: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B954D15175; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from giovannelli.it (ppp-massa52-64-30.iol.it [212.52.64.30]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06295; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:21:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-ID: <379B3A2C.21311667@giovannelli.it> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:24:12 +0200 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org, ports@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is there a mysql user that want to save a FreeBSD box ? References: <379ACD46.69BB36E4@giovannelli.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks to everyone for the lot of answers about my problem... Now I have the socket. :-) I also discovered the problem was also pointed out in the manual. But it was not so easy to find it. I am not an expert user and very difficult I could associate the MIT-pthreads (which are for me a very obscure thing right now :-) to the fact my socket don't come out... Perhaps when the new port of MySql is coming out we can think to improve with a more verbose note that can point out better the problem... So instead of only : "You may set NATIVE_THREADS (make NATIVE_THREADS=yes) to compile mysql with the native FreeBSD threads (libc_r). Warning: There are still some bugs in libc_r which prevent 'mysqladmin shutdown' from working properly and killing mysqld might not work." I think we can add also a line explaing that if you don't use this NATIVE_THREADS opt you can't use the socket as well.. Thanks very much to everyone who has kindly answered me... -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 9:31: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23CC1151E2 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from tracy.umd.edu (tracy.umd.edu [128.8.10.51]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA05865; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by tracy.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA11514; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:28:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tracy.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 12:28:42 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@tracy.umd.edu To: Summoner Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT In-Reply-To: <379B2CCE.8AA96D86@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 25 Jul 1999, Summoner wrote: > http://www.marketplace.unisys.com/ent/cmparch.pdf > > To put it simply, a CMP system is a (2x2)x2x8 32-way cluster-in-a-box > with lots of inter-machine shared memory, 96 PCI slots, the ability to > run 8 OSes at once, and a crossbar switch that would give any hardware > junkie wet dreams. > > I want two. :-) Does FreeBSD run on it? Would it be useful for RSA cracking? :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 14:10:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2EDDD150DE for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:10:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from summoner@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 1178 invoked by alias); 25 Jul 1999 21:07:25 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 1151 invoked by uid 0); 25 Jul 1999 21:07:25 -0000 Received: from edsl209.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.175.209) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 25 Jul 1999 21:07:25 -0000 Message-ID: <379B7C8B.3DCAF146@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 14:07:23 -0700 From: Summoner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Howard Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Howard wrote: > On Sun, 25 Jul 1999, Summoner wrote: >> http://www.marketplace.unisys.com/ent/cmparch.pdf >> >> To put it simply, a CMP system is a (2x2)x2x8 32-way cluster-in-a-box >> with lots of inter-machine shared memory, 96 PCI slots, the ability to >> run 8 OSes at once, and a crossbar switch that would give any hardware >> junkie wet dreams. >> >> I want two. :-) > > Does FreeBSD run on it? Would it be useful for RSA cracking? :) Cracking keys? It's proven that any civilian encryption system, given enough CPU cycles, can be broken. It's a waste of time IMO, but then it's your electricity bill, not mine. I think something like GIMPS is far more productive (and lucritive). Unisys's changes in the architecture design are supposedly invisible to the OS running on each sub-pod. It's based on Intel Xeon CPUs, so it's at least theoretically possible that FreeBSD would run on it. The hype-pages do say that Unisys has been working closly with MS on this one to get NT working on it, so they may very well be using a special kernel (like what SGI did with the 320 and 540). If that's the case, then it's likely FreeBSD compatibility is making a sprint for the nearest window. But I'm no kernel hacker, so I have little idea of what would break "our" kernel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 17:21:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E28914CBA for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 17:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-241.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.241]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA30531; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:21:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <379BA9F6.C903EC90@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:21:10 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Summoner Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT References: <19990725131417.45718@ns.int.ftf.net> <379B2CCE.8AA96D86@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Summoner wrote: > > http://www.marketplace.unisys.com/ent/cmparch.pdf > > To put it simply, a CMP system is a (2x2)x2x8 32-way cluster-in-a-box > with lots of inter-machine shared memory, 96 PCI slots, the ability to > run 8 OSes at once, and a crossbar switch that would give any hardware > junkie wet dreams. Damn. You shouldn't have said that, I'm going to have to clean the computer. ;-) > I want two. :-) If FreeBSD ran on it, it could probably run Ebay. But that's a lot of moo-la in Xeons. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 19:45: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47F214F3B for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:44:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (207-172-143-156.s29.as2.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.156]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18415; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907260243.WAA18415@smtp1.erols.com> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: James Gill Subject: RE: UNIX, Darwin, NT (was: Installing Linux (was: Sanity regaine Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jamie Bowden , a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality , Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-Jul-99 James Gill wrote: > > i'm now considering serously making this my .sig : > > "You might like to know that I looked at a detailed map of NT, and I'm > now able to confirm that in all probability Microsoft NT does not > exist. If it does, it's so small as to be completely insignificant." > --Greg Lehey, Author, _The Complete FreeBSD_ > > ;) > > ===================================== > James Gill * http://www.topsecret.net > ===================================== It should at least go into fortune. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 25 21:59:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C300D14CC2 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 21:59:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA14645; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:25:49 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA58796; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:25:46 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:25:46 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Baldwin Cc: James Gill , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Jamie Bowden , a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Subject: Re: UNIX, Darwin, NT (was: Installing Linux (was: Sanity regaine Message-ID: <19990726142546.T51019@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199907260243.WAA18415@smtp1.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199907260243.WAA18415@smtp1.erols.com>; from John Baldwin on Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 10:43:11PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 25 July 1999 at 22:43:11 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 25-Jul-99 James Gill wrote: >> >> i'm now considering serously making this my .sig : >> >> "You might like to know that I looked at a detailed map of NT, and I'm >> now able to confirm that in all probability Microsoft NT does not >> exist. If it does, it's so small as to be completely insignificant." >> --Greg Lehey, Author, _The Complete FreeBSD_ > > It should at least go into fortune. Done. > grog 1999/07/25 20:35:10 PDT > > Modified files: > games/fortune/datfiles fortunes > Log: > Add recognition that Microsoft NT does not exist. > > Requested-by: John Baldwin > > Revision Changes Path > 1.14 +5 -0 src/games/fortune/datfiles/fortunes Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 0:54:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from atena.eurocontrol.fr (atena.uneec.eurocontrol.fr [147.196.69.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB1014C07 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 00:54:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@eurocontrol.fr) Received: from caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr (caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr [147.196.43.2]) by atena.eurocontrol.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9C67753 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:52:32 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from roberto@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr) Received: by caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr (Postfix, from userid 1193) id C17233BA8; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:52:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:52:26 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: XFree86 3.9.15 Message-ID: <19990726095226.E1079@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List References: <19990723142540.A79492@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jack on Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 09:29:01AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to jack: > Yes. Just used `make World', on 3.2-STABLE as of about a mont I was told by one of the developers that the XInput extention is required (and of course I didn't know that :-). Compiled fine. RUn fine except that it eats even more memory than before and DPMS doesn't work anymore. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- Eurocontrol EEC/TEC -=- Ollivier.Robert@eurocontrol.fr The Postman hits! The Postman hits! You have new mail. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 2:11:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C0C14BF7 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:11:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA02612; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:11:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <73448.932787007@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990724102734.A20171@daemon.ninth-circle.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 Jul 1999 11:11:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai's message of "Sat, 24 Jul 1999 10:27:34 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > * Jordan K. Hubbard (jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) [990724 09:51]: > > Not everyone likes bash, you know, and for > > everyone saying "bash should be the default!" there's someone else > > going "NO! Tcsh as the default or death!" or "zsh is the One True > > Shell you heathens! Bash sucks!" > That zsh freak reminds me of Eivind ;) ...or one of his convertites. I think jkh was referring to my recent rant on -committers :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 2:21:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D67115332 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 02:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA02800; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:18:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Kris Kirby Cc: Summoner , Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT References: <19990725131417.45718@ns.int.ftf.net> <379B2CCE.8AA96D86@uswest.net> <379BA9F6.C903EC90@airnet.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 Jul 1999 11:18:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: Kris Kirby's message of "Sun, 25 Jul 1999 19:21:10 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kirby writes: > If FreeBSD ran on it, it could probably run Ebay. But that's a lot of > moo-la in Xeons. moo-la? Is that furbish? I can't find it in the furbish-english dictionary... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 3:26:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0963152F1 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 03:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-232.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.232]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA18636; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:26:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <379C37E1.ED6365C5@airnet.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:26:41 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT References: <19990725131417.45718@ns.int.ftf.net> <379B2CCE.8AA96D86@uswest.net> <379BA9F6.C903EC90@airnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Kris Kirby writes: > > If FreeBSD ran on it, it could probably run Ebay. But that's a lot of > > moo-la in Xeons. > > moo-la? Is that furbish? I can't find it in the furbish-english > dictionary... I kinda meant it in both the sense of money and of the Bovine RC5 client. Granted that the prizes aren't high enough for that... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 4:49: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B95152FF for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 04:48:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id VAA12118; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:46:54 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma012116; Mon, 26 Jul 99 21:46:43 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17011; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:44:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22868; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:44:56 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13220; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:44:55 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199907261144.VAA13220@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Kris Kirby , Summoner , Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT References: In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "26 Jul 1999 11:18:11 +0200" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:44:55 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 26th July 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Kris Kirby writes: >> If FreeBSD ran on it, it could probably run Ebay. But that's a lot of >> moo-la in Xeons. > >moo-la? Is that furbish? I can't find it in the furbish-english >dictionary... I lived for years in a town called Moola. Actually, it fell short of being a town, being more like a couple of farms and two houses near the Moola signpost. The sign itself rotted and fell over, and it took folks a few years to get around to putting up another one. Wouldn't want to rush that sort of thing. Probably had to save up for it, the new one being metal and all... Are we still on topic? Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 5:11:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [207.239.68.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0488814BE7 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:11:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA12250 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:08:23 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Priority: 5 X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD essentials Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After many years of just "playing" with FreeBSD I am finally doing some real production work with it... the only true way to learn... I would like a list of recommended "essentials" for maintaining a FreeBSD box. For instance on every single box of FreeBSD I have ever installed I have Midnight Commander and less. From the feedback I get I will make a "FreeBSD Essentials Page" In particular I am interested in admin type of tools (email, network performance, log maintenance, ...) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 6:29:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9813C14F76 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:29:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA08431; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:27:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Stephen McKay Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Kris Kirby , Summoner , Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT References: <199907261144.VAA13220@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 26 Jul 1999 15:27:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: Stephen McKay's message of "Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:44:55 +1000" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen McKay writes: > Are we still on topic? Topic? This is freebsd-chat, m'boy. We don't need no steenkin' topic. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 6:57:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from student-mailhub.dcu.ie (ns.dcu.ie [136.206.1.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF3C1512B for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pooka@redbrick.dcu.ie) Received: from mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (postfix@Mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE [136.206.15.2]) by student-mailhub.dcu.ie (8.9.3/8.9.3/893-FD) with ESMTP id OAA15855 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:56:20 +0100 (BST) Received: by mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (Postfix, from userid 2033) id 15EE343886; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:57:57 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:57:57 +0100 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unisys backing NT Message-ID: <19990726145757.C17722@mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE> References: <199907261144.VAA13220@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 03:27:55PM +0200 Organization: My Own Private Hideyhole, Inc. From: pooka@redbrick.dcu.ie (Tiny Non Cats) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 03:27:55PM +0200 Dag-Erling Smorgrav said: > Stephen McKay writes: > > Are we still on topic? > Topic? This is freebsd-chat, m'boy. We don't need no steenkin' topic. > Stimpy! You washed my used celebrity topics!! Cian ;o) -- What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? Will you, like Peter, boldly say: "Who?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 7:24:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C41C15329 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 75672 invoked by uid 1003); 26 Jul 1999 14:22:26 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:22:26 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Message-ID: <19990726162226.A75170@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 08:08:23AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 1999-07-26 (08:08), Francisco Reyes wrote: > >From the feedback I get I will make a "FreeBSD Essentials Page" > > In particular I am interested in admin type of tools (email, > network performance, log maintenance, ...) I may be wrong, but I think Doug White was the guy who asked for a list of everyone's five first-installed packages so as to order the packages on the CDs correctly, and it's possible still have that information. No need to duplicate the work. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 9:17:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E78414D56 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:17:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.201]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAC497F; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:15:21 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA01391; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:56:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:56:25 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990726175625.A1384@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <73448.932787007@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990724102734.A20171@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 11:11:19AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no) [990726 13:15]: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > > * Jordan K. Hubbard (jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) [990724 09:51]: > > > Not everyone likes bash, you know, and for > > > everyone saying "bash should be the default!" there's someone else > > > going "NO! Tcsh as the default or death!" or "zsh is the One True > > > Shell you heathens! Bash sucks!" > > That zsh freak reminds me of Eivind ;) > > ...or one of his convertites. I think jkh was referring to my recent > rant on -committers :) *rephrases* That zsh freak reminds me of Dag-Erling! ;) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 10:47:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C65114D96 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 10:47:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07792 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 13:44:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: cool digital camera Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just got a digital camera, and of course had myself resigned to using windows to retrieve the pics, but I found out theres a program for FreeBSD called "The Washington Photo Server" that works with my Kodak DC210+ grin...I made a good choice without knowing it. (the thing takes great pics too) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 14:15:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E861314CFB for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01907; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:13:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:13:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cool digital camera In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > I just got a digital camera, and of course had myself resigned to > using windows to retrieve the pics, but I found out theres a program > for FreeBSD called "The Washington Photo Server" that works with my > Kodak DC210+ That's great. There's also gphoto in ports that will work w/ this camera. Note also that Kodak openly specifies their protocols allowing relatively easy porting. :-) Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 14:39:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 326E91514E for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.238]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA4F80 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:37:50 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA05350 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:33:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:33:27 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: NLFUG Announcement Message-ID: <19990726233327.D4938@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Aankondiging ============ Een aantal enthousiaste Nederlandse FreeBSD gebruikers is van plan om een gebruikersgroep te gaan oprichten. Op 17 september zal er een eerste bijeenkomst plaatsvinden. Tijdens deze bijeenkomst zal worden gekeken wat we willen en hoe we dat willen bereiken. Tijd en exacte lokatie zijn nog steeds open ter discussie. We zijn nog op zoek naar een centrale gelegen ruimte. Mocht je interesse hebben, dan kun je je subscriben op de nlfug mailinglist. Stuur een mailtje naar majordomo@nl.freebsd.org met als inhoud: subscribe nlfug Hopelijk tot ziens op die eerste bijeenkomst... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Announcement ============ A couple of enthusiastic Dutch FreeBSD users has been planning to start an usergroup. On the 17th of September there will be a meeting. During this meeting we will discuss what we want and how to reach those goals. Time and location are still open for discussion. We are still looking for a centrally located space in which to gather. Are you interested, then you can subscribe to the nlfug mailinglist. Send a mail to majordomo@nl.freebsd.org with the body subscribe nlfug [please note that the primary language on that list is dutch] Hopefully we will see you at the first meeting... Signed, Guido van Rooij/Mark Huizer/Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 14:40:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAE91514E for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA21487; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:39:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:39:30 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Message-ID: <19990726163930.A12369@futuresouth.com> References: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> <19990726162226.A75170@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990726162226.A75170@rucus.ru.ac.za>; from Neil Blakey-Milner on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 04:22:26PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 04:22:26PM +0200, a little birdie told me that Neil Blakey-Milner remarked > On Mon 1999-07-26 (08:08), Francisco Reyes wrote: > > >From the feedback I get I will make a "FreeBSD Essentials Page" > > > > In particular I am interested in admin type of tools (email, > > network performance, log maintenance, ...) > > I may be wrong, but I think Doug White was the guy who asked for a list of > everyone's five first-installed packages so as to order the packages on the > CDs correctly, and it's possible still have that information. I don't recall hearing that call go out, but here's a few ideas... 1) tcsh (*thwap* no bash! tcsh dammit!) 2) ssh 3) cvsup if(X) { 4) xlock 5) xv 6) lesstif 7) ctwm (need them virtual desktops) 8) bgrot! (*cheer*) } 9) Linux compat libs Other high-prio stuff: - Mail client (elm, pine, mutt, [[e]x]mh...) - Compressers ([un]zip, bzip2...) Other things such as various libraries/toolkits, gmake, etc, also get installed as necessary for prereqs. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 14:52:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E4714C1F for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 14:52:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id XAA23763; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:51:22 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id AAA52216; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:07:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990727000734.60376@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:07:34 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Francisco Reyes , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials References: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> <19990726162226.A75170@rucus.ru.ac.za> <19990726163930.A12369@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990726163930.A12369@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 04:39:30PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller writes: > > everyone's five first-installed packages so as to order the packages on the > > CDs correctly, and it's possible still have that information. > > Other high-prio stuff: > - Mail client (elm, pine, mutt, [[e]x]mh...) > - Compressers ([un]zip, bzip2...) I think we should be focusing on *categories* (see below) and have the user prioritize them: 1) shells bash <-- user suggestions zsh <-- tcsh <-- 2) compression unzip bzip 3) communication mutt trn 4) security tripwire ssh 5) admin tools swatch/logsurfer snmpd 6) misc [...] -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 15:16:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE87514BCF for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA24298; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:15:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:15:06 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Phil Regnauld Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , Francisco Reyes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Message-ID: <19990726171505.B12369@futuresouth.com> References: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> <19990726162226.A75170@rucus.ru.ac.za> <19990726163930.A12369@futuresouth.com> <19990727000734.60376@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990727000734.60376@ns.int.ftf.net>; from Phil Regnauld on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 12:07:34AM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 12:07:34AM +0200, a little birdie told me that Phil Regnauld remarked > > I think we should be focusing on *categories* (see below) > and have the user prioritize them: Yes, I'm liking this... We could probably put some time into this and come up with a good useful list. The ports/packages list as a whole is so huge nowadays that 'skim through it and see what you might want' is far from a useful sugestion. However, if we could put together something to spew out a few basic categories and some choices within them, it shouldn't be too hard to at least reap some feedback off it... -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 16:11:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4E914C12 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:11:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (207-172-143-180.s53.as2.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.180]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25584; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:10:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907262310.TAA25584@smtp3.erols.com> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990726163930.A12369@futuresouth.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:10:49 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Cc: FreeBSd Chat list , Francisco Reyes , Neil Blakey-Milner Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jul-99 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 04:22:26PM +0200, a little birdie told me > that Neil Blakey-Milner remarked >> On Mon 1999-07-26 (08:08), Francisco Reyes wrote: >> > >From the feedback I get I will make a "FreeBSD Essentials Page" >> > >> > In particular I am interested in admin type of tools (email, >> > network performance, log maintenance, ...) >> >> I may be wrong, but I think Doug White was the guy who asked for a list of >> everyone's five first-installed packages so as to order the packages on the >> CDs correctly, and it's possible still have that information. > > I don't recall hearing that call go out, but here's a few ideas... > 1) tcsh (*thwap* no bash! tcsh dammit!) > 2) ssh 2a) tripwire 2b) sudo > 3) cvsup > if(X) { > 4) xlock > 5) xv > 6) lesstif > 7) ctwm (need them virtual desktops) or fvwm2 (what flamewar do you want to start today?) > 8) bgrot! (*cheer*) > } else { 4) lynx } > 9) Linux compat libs > > Other high-prio stuff: > - Mail client (elm, pine, mutt, [[e]x]mh...) if(X) { xfmail } > - Compressers ([un]zip, bzip2...) --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 16:57:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C81E14DA9 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 42962 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Jul 1999 00:00:11 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:00:11 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Message-ID: <19990727020010.J46076@paert.tse-online.de> References: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> <19990726162226.A75170@rucus.ru.ac.za> <19990726163930.A12369@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <19990726163930.A12369@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 04:39:30PM -0500 Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, ... ok. here the 'to-be-immediately-installed-{packages|ports}' from a rather 'normal user'. I'm used to install the following types of systems: * Internet-Gateway / Firewalls * Personal Workstations * Business Servers (tm) ;) (Samba / intranet, etc) * Webserver And the following packages / ports are the very firsts most of the time: On Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 04:39:30PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > 1) tcsh (*thwap* no bash! tcsh dammit!) 1) zsh (*thwap* ... csh programming and usig is considered harmful ;) ) > 2) ssh dito (1.2x) 3) mergemaster 4) vim (currently 5.3) > 3) cvsup dito other useful tools: team screen less various 'server'-applications qmail wide-dhcp (... hmmm, currently I'm thinking of switching to ISC-dhcp) > if(X) { ... only on demand, ... and then defininately not from packages afterstep-1.0 xemacs gvim > 9) Linux compat libs yes. but not on each system > Other high-prio stuff: > - Mail client (elm, pine, mutt, [[e]x]mh...) fetchmail mutt pgp > - Compressers ([un]zip, bzip2...) zip / unzip unrar bzip2 not to forget: apsfilter a2ps ghostscript hmmm. but I have to admit that I'm used to do install only the really important packages (see above) and then do something like [newmachine] scp whoops@klingklag:my-preferred-ports.sh . [newmachine] ./my-preferred-ports.sh Bye, Andreas -- : TSE GmbH Neue Medien : Gsf: Arne Reuter : : : Hovestrasse 14 : Andreas Braukmann : We do it with : : D-48351 Everswinkel : HRB: 1430, AG WAF : FreeBSD/SMP : :--------------------------------------------------------------------: : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 17: 5:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gbtb.com (modem11.tekrab.net [208.30.20.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF59E14DA9 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by gbtb.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id UAA32372 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:03:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:03:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Miscellany of chat-type questions... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As customers and, I assume, some vendors, (1) How do ye FreeBSD list-ers feel about the free source/paid support model of software distribution? I.e., free source and/or binaries, free bugfixes, paid customer support/modifications? How do your managers feel? :) I've lived a short life, and I've had the luck of only working under people who, at heart, were misers. So I've never encountered the "costs a grand, must be great" mindset. My gut (and maybe Debian) tells me that if I print up a set of manuals in nice glossy covers and hire a graphic designer to draw a nice, stylish box, I could probably sell something out of one hand that I'm giving away out of the other. Part of me questions the ethics of that, but I could probably live with it if I sold support separately from the box (i.e., download and buy support). I should mention that I'm not talking about reselling FreeBSD, I'm talking about distribution of my own stuff, written in-house. I'm not thinking of one of those "tap the internet open-source lovefest for profit" things like Mozilla; I think it's in my best interest to distribute the source to people who can use it to their benefit, especially if my target market is professionals, because it increases trust in the product. At least, that's the warm fuzzy I get from FreeBSD. Plus, I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to diff the latest release because they broke something... :) (2) Would anyone want to use COBOL on FreeBSD? Why? :) Marc. -- Marc Ramirez - Owner Great Big Throbbing Brains mrami@gbtb.com http://www.gbtb.com Our brains throb, so yours won't have to! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 17:13:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A6714DA3 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16486; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:13:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016455; Mon Jul 26 17:13:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23423; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:13:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907270013.RAA23423@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Miscellany of chat-type questions... To: mrami@gbtb.com (Marc Ramirez) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:13:36 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Marc Ramirez" at Jul 26, 99 08:03:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (2) Would anyone want to use COBOL on FreeBSD? Why? :) I actually considered writing a COBOL compiler, and went so far as to create a grammar. I think that it might be an OK thing for TenDRA (so it doesn't get GPL'ed), but for use with GNU tools, I'm afraid that it would have to be a COBOL-TO-C translator, if I ever decided that it was worthwhile finishing the thing for use on FreeBSD. Oh, yeah, it's not ANSI COBOL-85 (I hate what Harris did to the language that I thought could not get more bloated...). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 17:26:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com (cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.185.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8EEB715089 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 17:26:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dark@idiotswitch.org) Received: (qmail 85315 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 00:25:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a11.idiotswitch.org) (10.0.0.11) by 10.0.0.1 with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 00:25:24 -0000 From: Rod Taylor To: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:20:53 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain References: <19990727020010.J46076@paert.tse-online.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99072620254800.58232@a11.idiotswitch.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It would be quite slick if the installer would present you with a list of the preferred stuff, then upon your first login, along with asking you to change your root password, a script would chug along in hte background installing all the ports. (Packages are for wimps). Another option that would be really nice in the installer, would be a method by which you could choose to keep -stable updated. Meaning, it makes a cron entry so once a week it cvsup's the source. I'm afraid I just can't follow /stand/sysinstall source very well to implement these :( -- An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today. -Laurence J. Peter (contributed by Chris Johnston) -- Rod Taylor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 19:35: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [207.239.68.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F133514F04 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA00390; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907270232.WAA00390@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Phil Regnauld" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Neil Blakey-Milner" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:32:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:07:34 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > I think we should be focusing on *categories* (see below) > and have the user prioritize them: > > 1) shells > bash <-- user suggestions > zsh <-- > tcsh <-- I did a page as a proof concept. http://natserv.com/francisco/Geeky_Goodies/FreeBSD_Essentials/fre ebsd_essentials.html Should this be oriented mostly to new users? I did my test page as if geared towards them. comments/suggestions? specially in the colors... color matching has never been one of my strenghts. :-( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 19:58:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B692814DA9 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 19:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from huppe@execpc.com) Received: from execpc.com (galaan-9.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.40.201]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.1) id VAA07370; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:57:53 -0500 Message-ID: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:00:26 -0500 From: Len Huppe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <73448.932787007@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990724102734.A20171@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990726175625.A1384@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you *hate* bash. Len Huppe Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > * Dag-Erling Smorgrav (des@flood.ping.uio.no) [990726 13:15]: > > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > > > * Jordan K. Hubbard (jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) [990724 09:51]: > > > > Not everyone likes bash, you know, and for > > > > everyone saying "bash should be the default!" there's someone else > > > > going "NO! Tcsh as the default or death!" or "zsh is the One True > > > > Shell you heathens! Bash sucks!" > > > That zsh freak reminds me of Eivind ;) > > > > ...or one of his convertites. I think jkh was referring to my recent > > rant on -committers :) > > *rephrases* > > That zsh freak reminds me of Dag-Erling! ;) > > -- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl > The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project > Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best > Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 20:15:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A8014F94 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:15:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:4626 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:13:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:13:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Len Huppe Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Len Huppe wrote: > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > *hate* bash. It can't complete user@host:path like zsh can :) Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 20:46:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D492151CC for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:46:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA07292; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907270346.XAA07292@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Rod Taylor" Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:46:33 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:20:53 -0400, Rod Taylor wrote: >It would be quite slick if the installer would present you with a list of the >preferred stuff, Never mind the technical difficulties of this.. it will be much more difficult to get a concensus of what the "preferred stuff" is. Different audiences will have different preferences. ie. new users, vs people who have already signed on with a particular shell/program/utility. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 20:52:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A6AB15249 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.39]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2BCF for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:50:20 -0400 Message-ID: <379D1E2F.36646378@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:49:19 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Miscellany of chat-type questions... References: <199907270013.RAA23423@usr01.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert escribió: > ... > > I think that it might be an OK thing for TenDRA (so it doesn't > get GPL'ed), but for use with GNU tools, I'm afraid that it > would have to be a COBOL-TO-C translator, if I ever decided > that it was worthwhile finishing the thing for use on FreeBSD. > TenDRA has some beautiful things if one wants to start a complete compiler toolkit; I understand it uses some sort of pseudo-code (I am probably the only person here that got to use OS9-Pascal for the Color Computer :-). I have a copy of Samuel Harbison's introductory Modula 3 book; it explains that SRC's Modula 3 is actually a modula to C translator. One of these days I'll try to build and use it with TenDRA C; if I'm not wrong this would mean I would be able to mix C and M3 libraries (NO I don't know why someone would want this, but it would be interesting). cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 21: 0: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tch.org (tacostand.tch.org [199.74.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE041509A for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser@tch.org) Received: (from ser@localhost) by tch.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA30078 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:50:19 -0700 From: Steve Rubin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Point of Sale software Message-ID: <19990726205019.A30069@tch.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of any point of sale software that runs under FreeBSD? -or- Anyone interested in writing one with me? ;) -- Steve Rubin - ser@tch.org - http://www.tch.org/~ser/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 22:59:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF59914FA4 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:59:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28467; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:57:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990726182054.045ccce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 18:27:24 -0600 To: Neil Blakey-Milner , Francisco Reyes From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Cc: FreeBSd Chat list In-Reply-To: <19990726162226.A75170@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> <199907261209.IAA12250@vulcan.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:22 PM 7/26/99 +0200, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: >I may be wrong, but I think Doug White was the guy who asked for a list of >everyone's five first-installed packages so as to order the packages on the >CDs correctly, and it's possible still have that information. For me, it's always stuff like: jove lynx less BIND 8 ssh I'd like to be able to specify a "heavily secured" setup from the get-go, in which most or all of the daemons are sandboxed and the rest are turned off. I'd like to get to a high securelevel immediately after honing the kernel. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 23: 7:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gbtb.com (modem6.tekrab.net [208.30.20.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C05E152BD for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by gbtb.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id CAA33850; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:05:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:05:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Steve Rubin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Point of Sale software In-Reply-To: <19990726205019.A30069@tch.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Steve Rubin wrote: > Anyone know of any point of sale software that runs under FreeBSD? > > -or- > > Anyone interested in writing one with me? ;) Hey! POS entry + COBOL = a free trip back to 1979 in the old Chevy Impala! I used to have MicroVAX 2000 and a VT420 in my bedroom that was jury-rigged with a light pen and cash drawer (I forgot the model number; it's the ones they use(d) at Bloickbuster) back when I was the SMG$ god at my place of employ. I should have just stripped to pay my way through college! :) Marc. > > -- > Steve Rubin - ser@tch.org - http://www.tch.org/~ser/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Marc Ramirez - Owner Great Big Throbbing Brains mrami@gbtb.com http://www.gbtb.com Our brains throb, so yours won't have to! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 23:30: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gbtb.com (modem6.tekrab.net [208.30.20.206]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F4A14F83 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) Received: from localhost (mrami@localhost) by gbtb.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id CAA33935; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:28:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mrami@gbtb.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:28:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Ramirez To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Miscellany of chat-type questions... In-Reply-To: <199907270013.RAA23423@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > (2) Would anyone want to use COBOL on FreeBSD? Why? :) > > I actually considered writing a COBOL compiler, and went so > far as to create a grammar. > > I think that it might be an OK thing for TenDRA (so it doesn't > get GPL'ed), but for use with GNU tools, I'm afraid that it > would have to be a COBOL-TO-C translator, if I ever decided > that it was worthwhile finishing the thing for use on FreeBSD. Yeah; it seems to me that any system worth its salt nowadays has to have at least a "compile to Java" type function... no sense going GNU that I can see... > Oh, yeah, it's not ANSI COBOL-85 (I hate what Harris did to the > language that I thought could not get more bloated...). :) Then they went and put OO on it. Marc. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Marc Ramirez - Owner Great Big Throbbing Brains mrami@gbtb.com http://www.gbtb.com Our brains throb, so yours won't have to! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 23:34:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1712C14F83 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25540; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <379D524D.53FD8463@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:31:41 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Rubin Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Point of Sale software References: <19990726205019.A30069@tch.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Rubin wrote: > > Anyone know of any point of sale software that runs under FreeBSD? As much as I love freebsd, 80-90% of POS stuff runs on OS/2, and is time and battle tested. I really doubt that most businesses would be willing to risk their livelihood on something new, on an OS they've never heard of. But, good luck if you decide to do it anyway. You might want to search the archives, this has come up before. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 26 23:40:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F20E152CC for ; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25580; Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:39:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <379D5428.DAE3BF21@gorean.org> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:39:36 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Len Huppe Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <73448.932787007@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990724102734.A20171@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990726175625.A1384@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Len Huppe wrote: > > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > *hate* bash. Because they are silly. :) But seriously folks, csh was developed in berkely, and became the "traditional" BSD shell. At different times bash has not had some features that people wanted, so other shells became "better" because they offered those features. There has now been so much convergence between the major shells that any "differences" are basically matters of style, and not terribly important. There are also some foolish people who think that because linux had the foresight to adopt bash as their standard system shell that it must be bad. At this point, whatever shell feels comfortable to you is the one you should use. Personally I've used bash for 5 years, I like it, I have lots of scripts for it, a killer .bashrc file, and can't stand csh, in any flavor. But, the great thing about unix is that there is always more than one way to do things. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 0: 3:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A75B14F64 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:03:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id JAA28955; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:00:28 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA52945; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:16:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990727091643.44383@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:16:43 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Doug Cc: Steve Rubin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Point of Sale software References: <19990726205019.A30069@tch.org> <379D524D.53FD8463@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <379D524D.53FD8463@gorean.org>; from Doug on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 11:31:41PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug writes: > Steve Rubin wrote: > > > > Anyone know of any point of sale software that runs under FreeBSD? > > As much as I love freebsd, 80-90% of POS stuff runs on OS/2, and is time > and battle tested. I really doubt that most businesses would be willing to > risk their livelihood on something new, on an OS they've never heard of. > But, good luck if you decide to do it anyway. You might want to search the > archives, this has come up before. I know of at least one supermarket franchise using them as in France. -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 0: 5: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5B914F64 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id JAA29354; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:04:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA52969; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:20:53 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990727092053.30255@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:20:53 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Terry Lambert Cc: Marc Ramirez , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Miscellany of chat-type questions... References: <199907270013.RAA23423@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199907270013.RAA23423@usr01.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 12:13:36AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > (2) Would anyone want to use COBOL on FreeBSD? Why? :) > > I actually considered writing a COBOL compiler, and went so > far as to create a grammar. PHK almost fooled me intro writing one :-) > would have to be a COBOL-TO-C translator, if I ever decided > that it was worthwhile finishing the thing for use on FreeBSD. That would be better than nothing. -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 0: 9:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34BA715351 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id JAA29915; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:09:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id JAA52990; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:25:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990727092518.65113@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:25:18 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Francisco Reyes Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , FreeBSd Chat list , Neil Blakey-Milner Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials References: <199907270232.WAA00390@vulcan.addy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199907270232.WAA00390@vulcan.addy.com>; from Francisco Reyes on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 10:32:41PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Francisco Reyes writes: > > http://natserv.com/francisco/Geeky_Goodies/FreeBSD_Essentials/freebsd_essentials.html Needs to be filled out more -- maybe use a table. How about checkboxes, and a script to collect how "popular" each port is (so the list can be ordered on popularity). -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 0:18:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C9314F64 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:18:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id JAA13948 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:17:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 926C68838; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:50:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:50:26 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990727075026.A27880@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <73448.932787007@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990724102734.A20171@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990726175625.A1384@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com>; from Len Huppe on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 10:00:26PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5468 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Len Huppe: > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > *hate* bash. I don't hate bash, it is just that it lacks so many cool features of zsh/tcsh (programmable completion, variables, fancy prompt) and have some key bindings different from the other shells. I don't care about POSIX compliancy, something bash has always insisted on. Ollivier, very heavy tcsh user for 10 years, recently converted to zsh. PS: note that the next version of bash will have programmable completion. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #72: Mon Jul 12 08:26:43 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 1:44:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ruhr.de (ns.ruhr.de [141.39.224.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0756152F2 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:44:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ch@adimus.de) Received: (qmail 28523 invoked by alias); 27 Jul 1999 08:43:38 -0000 Received: from mail by mx.adimus.de with local (Exim 1.92 #1) id 1192iO-0005xI-00; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:36:00 +0200 Received: from det.adimus.de(192.168.0.1) via SMTP by adimus.de, id smtpdi22813; Tue Jul 27 10:35:51 1999 Received: from ch by det.adimus.de with local (Exim 1.92 #1) id 1192gX-0005i2-00; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:34:05 +0200 To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Point of Sale software References: <19990726205019.A30069@tch.org> <379D524D.53FD8463@gorean.org> <19990727091643.44383@ns.int.ftf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Christoph Haas Date: 27 Jul 1999 10:34:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: Phil Regnauld's message of "Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:16:43 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 29 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Phil Regnauld writes: > Doug writes: > > Steve Rubin wrote: > > > > > > Anyone know of any point of sale software that runs under FreeBSD? > > > > As much as I love freebsd, 80-90% of POS stuff runs on OS/2, and is time Well, at least SCO provides as POS base system which runs on, you guess it, SCO OpenServer (designed for embedded systems that run on one of those PC based cash registers). So there must be some sort of POS software that runs on OpenServer, and thinking of iBCS2 compatibility, one should give it a try and run those packages on FreeBSD with SCO compatibility. I don't have an url at hand for those packages, but it should not be hard to find some. Maybe a look at SCO's homepage offers some hints. HTH, Christoph -- Christoph Haas Adimus Beratungsgesellschaft für System- System Administration & Design, und Netzwerkadministration mbH & Co KG IT Security, Remote System Mgmt Universitätsstr. 142, 44799 Bochum Opinions presented are my own. Tel. +49-(0)234-971971-0, Fax -9 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 1:56:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA291152BD for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:56:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA35053; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:56:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Len Huppe Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <73448.932787007@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990724102734.A20171@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990726175625.A1384@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Jul 1999 10:56:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: Len Huppe's message of "Mon, 26 Jul 1999 22:00:26 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Len Huppe writes: > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > *hate* bash. It's buggy and bloated. It provides much fewer features than zsh yet has a larger memory footprint. It's under GPL. I don't *hate* bash, BTW. I just think it (and every other shell out there) is vastly inferior to zsh. But bash is still better than most. Try zsh. Don't just install it and use it as a drop-in bash replacement, but read the man pages and use its features. For starters, learn to use its extended globbing and its programmable completion. Trust me, you'll get addicted soon enough. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 2:26:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C6C515052 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 60434 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 09:26:13 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 09:26:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:26:13 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Len Huppe , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jul 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Len Huppe writes: > > Try zsh. Don't just install it and use it as a drop-in bash > replacement, but read the man pages and use its features. For > starters, learn to use its extended globbing and its programmable > completion. Trust me, you'll get addicted soon enough. I started to get addicted to zsh, and had to give it up. I do most of my work on machines that have ksh and sh, and nothing else. Let my tell you, ksh'88 makes bash look like sliced bread. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 4:14:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [207.239.68.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C4414D38 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:14:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA00417; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907271113.HAA00417@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Phil Regnauld" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" , "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Neil Blakey-Milner" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:25:18 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >Francisco Reyes writes: >> http://natserv.com/francisco/Geeky_Goodies/FreeBSD_Essentials/freebsd_essentials.html > Needs to be filled out more -- maybe use a table. Yes I know it needs more content. As I mentioned it was just a proof of concept. Just as to get feedback on the design (or lack of it). My main concern is who is the target audience? Should this be for New users or as a reference for those who have gone beyond the basics? Another way to put it is do we need descriptions like those I tried to write. >How about checkboxes, and a script to collect how "popular" each port >is (so the list can be ordered on popularity). I like the idea except that until someone can suggest a good way to prevent false votes it is not of much use. Take for example what happened with Distributed net recently. Someone falsified stats just "to proof it could be done and that they lacked proper security". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 4:32:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com (cr575310-a.shprd1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.185.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D7C6514D71 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dark@idiotswitch.org) Received: (qmail 72220 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 11:32:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO a11.idiotswitch.org) (10.0.0.11) by 10.0.0.1 with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 11:32:03 -0000 From: Rod Taylor To: "Francisco Reyes" , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:29:32 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.21] Content-Type: text/plain References: <199907271113.HAA00417@vulcan.addy.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <99072707323300.76617@a11.idiotswitch.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Francisco Reyes wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:25:18 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > > >Francisco Reyes writes: > >> http://natserv.com/francisco/Geeky_Goodies/FreeBSD_Essentials/freebsd_essentials.html > > Needs to be filled out more -- maybe use a table. > >How about checkboxes, and a script to collect how "popular" each port > >is (so the list can be ordered on popularity). > > I like the idea except that until someone can suggest a good way > to prevent false votes it is not of much use. Take for example > what happened with Distributed net recently. Someone falsified > stats just "to proof it could be done and that they lacked > proper security". Whelp... You could use the IP and block it from voting again for 2 hours or something. This would allow dynamic people to both vote (should they get the ip), and wouldn't allow one person to load it up very quickly. That combined with email verification, where the vote is only passed if the email is different would sufficiently block off most loadings.... Then again.... Anyone with a c-class also has a ream of email addresses :) -- Originality is the fine art of remembering what you hear but forgetting where you heard it. -Laurence J. Peter (contributed by Chris Johnston) -- Rod Taylor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 4:38: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FAA1532F for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA38738; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:37:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Rod Taylor Cc: "Francisco Reyes" , FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials References: <199907271113.HAA00417@vulcan.addy.com> <99072707323300.76617@a11.idiotswitch.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Jul 1999 13:37:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: Rod Taylor's message of "Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:29:32 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rod Taylor writes: > Whelp... You could use the IP and block it from voting again for 2 > hours or something. This would allow dynamic people to both vote > (should they get the ip), and wouldn't allow one person to load it > up very quickly. Consider how many -chat readers work for (or are) ISPs. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 4:43:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vulcan.addy.com (vulcan.addy.com [207.239.68.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46965153B3 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:43:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from francisco@natserv.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by vulcan.addy.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA02529; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907271142.HAA02529@vulcan.addy.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" , "Rod Taylor" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:40:15 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jul 1999 13:37:36 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> Whelp... You could use the IP and block it from voting again for 2 >> hours or something. This would allow dynamic people to both vote >> (should they get the ip), and wouldn't allow one person to load it >> up very quickly. > >Consider how many -chat readers work for (or are) ISPs. The only thing I could think of was verifying a user by sending an email to which they need to reply and to verify this id is a valid user of one of the freebsd lists... but I can't remember if the lists currently allow to see members (which I actually hope they don't since this would allow spammers to get the names). Overall having people have to reply is one of the better methods I can think off.. although somewhat of an inconvinience. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 4:49:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.mato.com (Mail.mato.com [199.240.78.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C4571532F for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dragonk@mato.com) Received: from dragonk [199.240.78.238] by mail.mato.com with smtp id 1195iM-00008O-00; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:48:11 -0600 Message-ID: <01e801bed825$c1e2ac00$0101a8c0@mato.com> From: "Dragon Knight ][" To: "Francisco Reyes" , "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" , "Rod Taylor" Cc: "FreeBSd Chat list" References: <199907271142.HAA02529@vulcan.addy.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:47:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 27 Jul 1999 13:37:36 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > >> Whelp... You could use the IP and block it from voting again for 2 > >> hours or something. This would allow dynamic people to both vote > >> (should they get the ip), and wouldn't allow one person to load it > >> up very quickly. > > > >Consider how many -chat readers work for (or are) ISPs. > > The only thing I could think of was verifying a user by sending > an email to which they need to reply and to verify this id is a > valid user of one of the freebsd lists... but I can't remember > if the lists currently allow to see members (which I actually > hope they don't since this would allow spammers to get the > names). > > Overall having people have to reply is one of the better methods > I can think off.. although somewhat of an inconvinience. > I would think that slight inconvenience is the whole idea. Because one being a slight inconvenience, 1000 = big inconvenience. Of course there are always ways around this, scripts and the like that auto-reply.. etc, .. But if a slight inconvenience is involved you might want to ask a person if they wish to vote? which might, again, taint the pool of votes. Samuel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 4:54: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01198153B8 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:52:38 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDWN2; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:52:37 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 1195ma-000HJa-00; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:52:32 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:52:32 +0100 To: David Scheidt Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!' Message-Id: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from David Scheidt on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 04:26:13AM -0500 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 04:26:13AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > I started to get addicted to zsh, and had to give it up. I do most of my > work on machines that have ksh and sh, and nothing else. Let my tell you, > ksh'88 makes bash look like sliced bread. Ksh is fine, and a lot better than a lot of people realise. The one beef that I have with it, after coming from zsh/bash is that completion is ESC ESC (or ESC \ in vi mode), instead of TAB. Dammit, everything should use TAB!! For scripting, it's a nice modern shell available practically everywhere. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 4:59:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A794F15401 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 04:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA39259; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:58:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!' References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Jul 1999 13:58:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: Dominic Mitchell's message of "Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:52:32 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dominic Mitchell writes: > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 04:26:13AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > > I started to get addicted to zsh, and had to give it up. I do most of my > > work on machines that have ksh and sh, and nothing else. Let my tell you, > > ksh'88 makes bash look like sliced bread. > Ksh is fine, and a lot better than a lot of people realise. The one > beef that I have with it, after coming from zsh/bash is that completion > is ESC ESC (or ESC \ in vi mode), instead of TAB. Dammit, everything > should use TAB!! zsh is primarily a ksh derivative. Read the FAQ; it lists the differences between ksh and zsh. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 5:27:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CDEB1153F5 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 36521 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 12:26:02 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 12:26:02 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:26:02 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 04:26:13AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > > I started to get addicted to zsh, and had to give it up. I do most of my > > work on machines that have ksh and sh, and nothing else. Let my tell you, > > ksh'88 makes bash look like sliced bread. > > Ksh is fine, and a lot better than a lot of people realise. The one > beef that I have with it, after coming from zsh/bash is that completion > is ESC ESC (or ESC \ in vi mode), instead of TAB. Dammit, everything > should use TAB!! Completion and the lack of ! history are the two things that get me. As scripting language ksh is quite nice. It could do with floating point math, which I hear ksh93 has. (Does anyone actually ship one?) David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 5:42:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55A4153F8 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 05:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 954F54192; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CA369B5E for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:42:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990726182054.045ccce0@localhost> Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The first five things I install are: tcsh (category: shell) ctwm (category: window mangler) pine (category: mail reader) xsysstats (category: system monitor) netscape (category: web browser) I install alot of stuff, but those are routinely first. This is for my desktop at home. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 6: 7:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAEB1541A for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:07:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18416.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.96]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25027; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA34415; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:07:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:07:07 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Message-ID: <19990727090707.A34395@mad> References: <4.2.0.58.19990726182054.045ccce0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jamie Bowden on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 08:42:18AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 08:42:18AM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > The first five things I install are: > > tcsh (category: shell) > ctwm (category: window mangler) > pine (category: mail reader) > xsysstats (category: system monitor) > netscape (category: web browser) I vote this entry be stricken from the record. ;-) -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 6:20:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3319A15408 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:20:03 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDWQT; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:20:02 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11979A-000HQA-00; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:19:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:19:56 +0100 To: David Scheidt Cc: Dominic Mitchell , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-Id: <19990727141955.A66937@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from David Scheidt on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 07:26:02AM -0500 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 07:26:02AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > Completion and the lack of ! history are the two things that get me. As > scripting language ksh is quite nice. It could do with floating point > math, which I hear ksh93 has. (Does anyone actually ship one?) It has completion, it's just not as convenient as it could be... As to ! history, 1) Why do you want this foul abomination? and 2) Look at ksh's "fc" cmd and it's "r" alias. Quite handy, although probably not as powerful as csh's history. Of course you've got interactive history, so it doesn't need to be. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 6:34:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35A9714EF5 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 06:34:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 74867 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 13:32:53 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 13:32:53 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 08:32:53 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <19990727141955.A66937@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: > It has completion, it's just not as convenient as it could be... > > As to ! history, 1) Why do you want this foul abomination? and 2) Look > at ksh's "fc" cmd and it's "r" alias. Quite handy, although probably not The lack of !$ and its friends drive me bonkers. I have been known to drive people looking over my shoulder bonkers by typing screenfulls of nothing but history operations. > as powerful as csh's history. Of course you've got interactive history, > so it doesn't need to be. Interactive history implies typing! Unnecessary keystrokes are evil! David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 9: 0:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0713814DBE for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:00:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29413; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <379DD793.892C7A68@gorean.org> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:00:19 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christoph Haas Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Point of Sale software References: <19990726205019.A30069@tch.org> <379D524D.53FD8463@gorean.org> <19990727091643.44383@ns.int.ftf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christoph Haas wrote: > > Phil Regnauld writes: > > > Doug writes: > > > Steve Rubin wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyone know of any point of sale software that runs under FreeBSD? > > > > > > As much as I love freebsd, 80-90% of POS stuff runs on OS/2, and is time > > Well, at least SCO provides as POS base system which runs on, you > guess it, SCO OpenServer Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was talking installed base (in the US anyway), not the universe of all possibilities. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 9: 5:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from caladan.tdx.co.uk (caladan.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04B215391 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:05:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk) Received: from tdx.co.uk (lorca-tx.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.242]) by caladan.tdx.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Kp) with ESMTP id RAA88402; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:05:24 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <379DD8C2.DF9772D7@tdx.co.uk> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:05:22 +0100 From: Karl Pielorz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Ames Cc: LutzRab@omc.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Project looking for a switch References: <199907271522.KAA31267@ns1.cioe.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [this has been cc'd to -chat - which I think/hope is more appropriate] Steve Ames wrote: > I thought subscribing to the CDs _IS_ a form of donation... since most > of us really have no need of CDs really, just something tangeble to > show to our bosses and controllers. I've convinced my company to subscribe > to every version of FreeBSD for the last couple of years. Subscribed to > snapshots when they were available. I'd guess they get a higher %age of the money from just the 'donate' button, but at the same time - if you get something thats more sellable to managers etc. - and a usefull copy of FreeBSD, you can't complain :) > Its hard to convince the corporate types to _donate_. Yes, I've hit the same problem here... What would be good / interesting is to have some feedback from this... I myself have been to the donate page (I'm trying to pursuade my employer to :) - But it would be good form a 'feel good factor' to hear when they actually get enough cash to get the switch... I guess this could easily get out of hand though - i.e. we don't want people suddenly demanding detailed expenditure reports, or precise details of "where my money" went... :( -Kp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 9:33:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9955414D61 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:33:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id BAA24818; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:32:46 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <379DDF13.B7846D08@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:32:19 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@NUXI.com Cc: Sheldon Hearn , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newsyslog owner.group -> owner:group References: <19990727081046.B46030@dragon.nuxi.com> <19851.933089123@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <19990727090734.H46030@dragon.nuxi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David O'Brien wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 05:25:23PM +0200, Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > > Hi Brian, > > To paraphase Bill Paul: > > Grrrr that's part of my last name. Yeah, that sounds like Bill Paul all right. Once someone recommended contacting him (Bill Paul) to a guy in the brazilian mailing lists. I immediately sent a warning message, explaining that he would be wanting to provide FULL details (and going into details into what, exactly, is a "detail" :). "Too late," the guy replies to me, "he stopped just short of coming here to beat me." :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Is it true that you're a millionaire's son who never worked a day in your life?" "Yeah, I guess so." "Lemme tell you, son, you ain't missed a thing." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 10:45:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40A21538D for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 10:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.14]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAC64D0; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:45:07 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA08432; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:17:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:17:38 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!' Message-ID: <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk>; from Dominic Mitchell on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 12:52:32PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Dominic Mitchell (Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) [990727 17:15]: > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 04:26:13AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > > I started to get addicted to zsh, and had to give it up. I do most of my > > work on machines that have ksh and sh, and nothing else. Let my tell you, > > ksh'88 makes bash look like sliced bread. > > Ksh is fine, and a lot better than a lot of people realise. The one > beef that I have with it, after coming from zsh/bash is that completion > is ESC ESC (or ESC \ in vi mode), instead of TAB. Dammit, everything > should use TAB!! *cough* bullshit *cough* set -o vi-tabcomplete Questions? [that's pdksh btw] -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 11:14:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8D814E4F for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA76720 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 19:06:44 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12558 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:38:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:38:35 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Describing FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990727133835.E535@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was at a friend's house the other night, sorting out various bits and pieces, which included at one point booting up my FreeBSD laptop (which drops in to X, running fvwm95. This friend's brother pokes his head around the door, and sees the fvwm screen. The conversion then went. Brother: Hey, what's that? [ Peers at the screen ] Brother: Is that Windows 98? Me : No, this is FreeBSD. Brother: What's that? Friend : You know what a Macintosh is, right? Well, it's almost exactly unlike one of those. Well, it made me smile. N ... FreeBSD: Almost exactly unlike a Macintosh. -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 11:33:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freeflow.macrowerx.com (freeflow.macrowerx.com [207.212.196.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904D314BFF for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sysjedi@freeflow.macrowerx.com) Received: from localhost (sysjedi@localhost) by freeflow.macrowerx.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA30738; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 11:25:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Tadhg Christopher Bird Cain To: Len Huppe Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Len Huppe wrote: > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > *hate* bash. Its almost obvious. Notice that the BSD folks identify with a devilish looking fellow, our Daemon. This implies that most of the FreeBSD community are probably pagans, and would resist any shell that is "Bourne Again" :) Another reason comes from my best friend: "All the wannabe hackers and Script Kiddies practice on Linux, using bash, and all thier scripts are written for bash." So this makes it in his mind, a security issue. Smooth Roads, -- Tadhg -- Tadhg "Christopher" Bird Cain Systems Jedi http://www.MacroWerx.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 12:32:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9911539C for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:32:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA30912; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:34:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from sue) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:34:41 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Describing FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990728053439.G7324@welearn.com.au> Mail-Followup-To: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990727133835.E535@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990727133835.E535@kilt.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:38:35PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:38:35PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > Me : No, this is FreeBSD. > > Brother: What's that? > > Friend : You know what a Macintosh is, right? > > Well, it's almost exactly unlike one of those. Right. Are you going to tell them about Mac OS X? :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 12:48:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDBE14C1B for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01550; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:46:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 12:46:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt011n65.san.rr.com To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <19990727075026.A27880@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Len Huppe: > > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > > *hate* bash. > > I don't hate bash, it is just that it lacks so many cool features of zsh/tcsh > (programmable completion, Agreed, but like you said, it's coming. :) > variables, Errr... Not sure what you mean by this one. > fancy prompt) How fancy do you want? :) Take a look at http://home.san.rr.com/freebsd/Bash-prompts.txt. > and have some key bindings > different from the other shells. Heh, "It's different" is a good description of how people usually criticize things. Also, most of the key bindings are configurable, including built in emacs and vi modes. > I don't care about POSIX compliancy, something bash has always insisted on. Personally I think this is another plus in bash's favor. > Ollivier, very heavy tcsh user for 10 years, recently converted to zsh. Note that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but I do like to promote factual discourse. If you think this is bad, try comp.unix.shells. *chuckle* Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 13: 0:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6BF4153D1 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:00:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01625; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:00:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:00:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt011n65.san.rr.com To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jul 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Len Huppe writes: > > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > > *hate* bash. > > It's buggy How and where? > and bloated. It provides much fewer features than zsh yet > has a larger memory footprint. I won't try to defend the memory footprint, but how many fewer features (other than programmable completion) are we talking about? > It's under GPL. No argument there, although frankly that's not an issue for me. Also, as I understand it Bash's license is a slightly modified version of the first GPL, so it's not quite as bad as all that. > Try zsh. Don't just install it and use it as a drop-in bash > replacement, but read the man pages and use its features. For > starters, learn to use its extended globbing and its programmable > completion. Trust me, you'll get addicted soon enough. What features specifically do you recommend that we look at other than those two, and how do they differ from bash? I'm willing to give another shell a look, but "Use this, it's better" isn't a convincing argument for me. :) Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 13:33: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 839A514DE3 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 96863 invoked from network); 27 Jul 1999 20:32:20 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 1999 20:32:20 -0000 Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:32:20 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Describing FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990727133835.E535@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > Friend : You know what a Macintosh is, right? > > Well, it's almost exactly unlike one of those. Bah. One thing the Mac and FreeBSD have in common is that they aren't designed to make it harder to use the computer to do what you want it to, unlike certain other alleged operating systems. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 15:29:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A6F14EEA for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:29:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id AAA22036 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 00:29:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 8B666884A; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:42:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:42:25 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990727234225.A33009@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990727075026.A27880@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: ; from Doug on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 12:46:33PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5468 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Doug: > > variables, > > Errr... Not sure what you mean by this one. Many variables to control features and shell behaviour, some coming from tcsh and new to zsh, examples : setopt auto_list setopt auto_menu setopt always_to_end setopt always_last_prompt setopt append_history setopt auto_remove_slash setopt extended_glob setopt glob_complete setopt hist_ignore_dups watch=(all) > How fancy do you want? :) Take a look at > http://home.san.rr.com/freebsd/Bash-prompts.txt. Is this a contest ? :) Here is mine (zsh / tcsh): PS1="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%2.%(#.#.>)%b " export PS1 -=-=- set prompt="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " > Heh, "It's different" is a good description of how people usually > criticize things. Also, most of the key bindings are configurable, > including built in emacs and vi modes. Different from both tcsh and zsh (at least in emacs mode). The defaults suit me more in both of these than in bash. > Personally I think this is another plus in bash's favor. You should care if you write scripts with the shell where I mostly use the sell only for interactive purposes. Most of my scripting is done in more or less pure sh if less than 10 lines and in Perl if more :) > Note that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but I do like to > promote factual discourse. If you think this is bad, try comp.unix.shells. I know the group :) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #72: Mon Jul 12 08:26:43 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 15:41:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5221C153E7 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA14488; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:40:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:40:37 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990727174037.I12369@futuresouth.com> References: <19990727075026.A27880@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990727234225.A33009@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990727234225.A33009@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 11:42:25PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 11:42:25PM +0200, a little birdie told me that Ollivier Robert remarked > According to Doug: > > > How fancy do you want? :) Take a look at > > http://home.san.rr.com/freebsd/Bash-prompts.txt. > > Is this a contest ? :) > > Here is mine (zsh / tcsh): > > PS1="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%2.%(#.#.>)%b " > export PS1 > -=-=- > set prompt="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " Wimp :P See http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/projects.html and link to my .tcshrc. Digested prompt: set prompt="%B[%P]%b %m:%~\n(%l):{%h}%% " The bored who read the full thing will note that %m can become %M based on a value in a seperate config file, and that a completely seperate and distinctive prompt is used if EUID==0. > > Personally I think this is another plus in bash's favor. > > You should care if you write scripts with the shell where I mostly use the > sell only for interactive purposes. Most of my scripting is done in more or > less pure sh if less than 10 lines and in Perl if more :) Indeed. I LIKE using a different shell for scripting than interactive. Interactive, tcsh is perfect. Scripting, /bin/sh works great for me; anything too complicated for that is what Perl is made for. -- Matthew Fuller (MF4839) | fullermd@over-yonder.net Unix Systems Administrator | fullermd@futuresouth.com Specializing in FreeBSD | http://www.over-yonder.net/ FutureSouth Communications | ISPHelp ISP Consulting "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 16:16:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8BC414D88 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08238; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:14:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd008213; Tue Jul 27 16:14:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA00814; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 16:14:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907272314.QAA00814@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: huppe@execpc.com (Len Huppe) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:14:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, des@flood.ping.uio.no, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> from "Len Huppe" at Jul 26, 99 10:00:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > *hate* bash. Speaking for myself, it's because people who don't know better depend upon its features, rendering shell scripts non-portable. In order to run these scripts, you have to install bash. In order to do that, you have to run "configure". In order to do that, you have to install GNU "make". ... It's a hellish web of interdependency, which could have been avoided, had no one installed bash. Of course, some people blame the idiots who put "bash-isms" in their scripts, but you really can't blame the people who drive automatics for your inability to rent a manual transmission car, right? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 17:14:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0B714EEA for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 17:14:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA25247; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:23 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA67134; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:21 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: Jamie Bowden , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD essentials Message-ID: <19990728094321.G66861@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990726182054.045ccce0@localhost> <19990727090707.A34395@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990727090707.A34395@mad>; from Tim Vanderhoek on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 09:07:07AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 27 July 1999 at 9:07:07 -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 08:42:18AM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: >> >> The first five things I install are: >> >> tcsh (category: shell) >> ctwm (category: window mangler) >> pine (category: mail reader) >> xsysstats (category: system monitor) >> netscape (category: web browser) > > I vote this entry be stricken from the record. ;-) Huh? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 18:49: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5404C14CD1 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:48:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA25583; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:18:56 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA67522; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:18:54 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:18:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') Message-ID: <19990728111853.K66861@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 07:17:38PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 27 July 1999 at 19:17:38 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > * Dominic Mitchell (Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) [990727 17:15]: >> On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 04:26:13AM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: >>> I started to get addicted to zsh, and had to give it up. I do most of my >>> work on machines that have ksh and sh, and nothing else. Let my tell you, >>> ksh'88 makes bash look like sliced bread. >> >> Ksh is fine, and a lot better than a lot of people realise. The one >> beef that I have with it, after coming from zsh/bash is that completion >> is ESC ESC (or ESC \ in vi mode), instead of TAB. Dammit, everything >> should use TAB!! > > *cough* bullshit *cough* > > set -o vi-tabcomplete > > Questions? [that's pdksh btw] Yup. Why doesn't this work? \[\]=== \u@\h (/dev/ttyp8) \[\]\w\[\] \# ->\[\] set -o emacs-tabcomplete ksh: set: emacs-tabcomplete: bad option Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 22:12:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6291815444 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:12:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 85909 invoked from network); 28 Jul 1999 05:11:56 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by queasy.outpost.co.nz with SMTP; 28 Jul 1999 05:11:56 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:57:51 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: Terry Lambert In-reply-to: <199907272314.QAA00814@usr01.primenet.com> References: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> from "Len Huppe" at Jul 26, 99 10:00:26 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990728051209.6291815444@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Speaking for myself, it's because people who don't know better > depend upon its features, rendering shell scripts non-portable. > > In order to run these scripts, you have to install bash. > > In order to do that, you have to run "configure". > > In order to do that, you have to install GNU "make". You must be doing it the hard way, Terry. I usually find: $ cd /usr/ports/shells/bash2 $ make install works fine. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 22:50:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D5A11502A for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 22:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.4]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6AE5; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:50:09 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA09966; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:33:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:33:05 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') Message-ID: <19990728073305.A9956@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728111853.K66861@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990728111853.K66861@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 11:18:53AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990728 06:20]: > On Tuesday, 27 July 1999 at 19:17:38 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > set -o vi-tabcomplete > > > > Questions? [that's pdksh btw] > > Yup. Why doesn't this work? > > \[\]=== \u@\h (/dev/ttyp8) \[\]\w\[\] \# ->\[\] set -o emacs-tabcomplete > ksh: set: emacs-tabcomplete: bad option Because that option doesn't exist under my pdksh 5.2.14? [asmodai@daemon:/usr/home/asmodai] (2) $ set -o Current option settings allexport off keyword off nolog off trackall off braceexpand on login on notify off verbose off bgnice off markdirs off nounset off vi on emacs off monitor on physical off viraw off errexit off noclobber off posix off vi-show8 off gmacs off noexec off privileged off vi-tabcomplete on ignoreeof off noglob off restricted off vi-esccomplete off interactive on nohup on stdin on xtrace off HTH, -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 23: 1:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from br3-de0.dnsmgr.net (br3-de0.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824271542C for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@hamell.hpc1.com) Received: from heorot.hamell.hpc1.com (host74-43.iwbc.net [216.228.74.43]) by br3-de0.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA92573; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@hamell.hpc1.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:23:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: Tadhg Christopher Bird Cain Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Its almost obvious. Notice that the BSD folks identify with a devilish > looking fellow, our Daemon. This implies that most of the FreeBSD > community are probably pagans, and would resist any shell that is "Bourne > Again" :) Unless they belive in reincarnation, then they could be Bourne Again, and again, and again, and again. But then I suppose they would prefer csh with it's !! command.... :) Rick, back to !! :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 27 23:13:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222E815437 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 1999 23:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA26483; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:42:08 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA16860; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:42:08 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:42:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') Message-ID: <19990728154207.V66861@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728111853.K66861@freebie.lemis.com> <19990728073305.A9956@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990728073305.A9956@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 07:33:05AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 28 July 1999 at 7:33:05 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > * Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990728 06:20]: >> On Tuesday, 27 July 1999 at 19:17:38 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>> set -o vi-tabcomplete >>> >>> Questions? [that's pdksh btw] >> >> Yup. Why doesn't this work? >> >> \[\]=== \u@\h (/dev/ttyp8) \[\]\w\[\] \# ->\[\] set -o emacs-tabcomplete >> ksh: set: emacs-tabcomplete: bad option > > Because that option doesn't exist under my pdksh 5.2.14? Bingo! So it's not as good after all. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 1:33: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9442F14F47 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:32:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:27:39 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDW0A; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:27:38 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 119P3l-0004C9-00; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:27:33 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:27:33 +0100 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!' Message-Id: <19990728092732.C16017@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org>; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 07:17:38PM +0200 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 07:17:38PM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > * Dominic Mitchell (Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) [990727 17:15]: > > Ksh is fine, and a lot better than a lot of people realise. The one > > beef that I have with it, after coming from zsh/bash is that completion > > is ESC ESC (or ESC \ in vi mode), instead of TAB. Dammit, everything > > should use TAB!! > > *cough* bullshit *cough* > > set -o vi-tabcomplete > > Questions? [that's pdksh btw] I know that's pdksh. The same pdksh that doesn't come installed on all the commercial Unixes I have to deal with. And if I've *got* to install software add-ons, I'll zsh, as it's far superior than ksh anyway. The point I was trying to make is that ordinary, plain-jane David Korn's own shell (1998 edition) is *almost* reasonable for interactive use bar that one teensy point. If only the vendors would get around to installing ksh93 instead of ksh88 (dtksh don't count), as that does allow arbitrary key bindings. Bloody typical of the Unix vendors that they're still 11 years out of date... Talk about stifling development. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 1:38:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ducky.nz.freebsd.org (210-55-152-99.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.152.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D817215453 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dan@freebsddiary.org) Received: from wocker (wocker.int.nz.freebsd.org [192.168.0.99]) by ducky.nz.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA63207; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:37:45 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199907280837.UAA63207@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Terry Lambert Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:37:46 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Reply-To: dan@freebsddiary.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199907272314.QAA00814@usr01.primenet.com> References: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> from "Len Huppe" at Jul 26, 99 10:00:26 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 27 Jul 99, at 23:14, Terry Lambert wrote: > > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > > *hate* bash. > > Speaking for myself, it's because people who don't know better > depend upon its features, rendering shell scripts non-portable. > > In order to run these scripts, you have to install bash. > > In order to do that, you have to run "configure". > > In order to do that, you have to install GNU "make". > > ... > > It's a hellish web of interdependency, which could have been > avoided, had no one installed bash. Ummmm, might I introduce you to: http://www.freebsddiary.org/freebsd/shell.htm You'll see that the above is not correct. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 1:44:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B6681523E for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:41 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDW0R; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:40 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 119PJI-0004DT-00; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:36 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:43:36 +0100 To: Doug Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-Id: <19990728094335.D16017@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from Doug on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:00:17PM -0700 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:00:17PM -0700, Doug wrote: > What features specifically do you recommend that we look at other > than those two, and how do they differ from bash? I'm willing to give > another shell a look, but "Use this, it's better" isn't a convincing > argument for me. :) Extended globbing. eg: less [A-Z]*(.) to view all the README files and suchlike in a directory, whilst ignoring things like CVS. Another favorite is "find /sys/*~compile | xargs egrep", which looks in all kernel source directories except the compile tree. Programmable completion. Takes a while to set up, but you can't live without it when you're done. I found it particularly useful for use with MH commands, and pkg_delete. eg: "show +in" -> "show +inbox". Not only that, but with the menu completion, you just keep hitting tab until you get what you want. Very lazy, very nice. How about completion for cd that only looks at directories? You can get implicit tees and cats with redirection syntax. eg: "ls -l > file1 > file2". You can turn off csh-style history easily ("setopt nobanghist"). Very important! For new users, if it sees a command beginning with rm and ending in "*", it asks if you're sure. That's gotta be the number one complaint about Unix from DOS people. Autoloaded functions (load on demand is a better description). I know that ksh and zsh have these, but I don't think bash does. One thing I find quite useful is that you can extend the "~user" syntax with your own variables. So, on our web cache machine, I automatically set "squid=/cacheboy/data01/squid" and I can then do "cd ~squid/logs". Generally, there are lots of little extensions that make life much easier. I would reccomend looking at: http://sunsite.auc.dk/zsh/Intro/index.html And going through the "tutorial on zsh" as a good introduction to some of the capabilities. Once you've done that, looking through the hypertext manual is interesting to see precisely what the extensions are. -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 1:53: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7B51523E for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 01:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA67748; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:52:51 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Doug Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jul 1999 10:52:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: Doug's message of "Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:00:17 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 41 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug writes: > On 27 Jul 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Len Huppe writes: > > > As a newcomer to FreeBSD, I am intersted in knowing why so many of you > > > *hate* bash. > > > > It's buggy > > How and where? Most prominently, it suffers from the same globbing bugs (well, they're documented, so I guess they're features now) as every other Bourne shell out there (specifically, if no files match a given pattern, the pattern is left unexpanded. Real Shells [tm] issue an error.) > What features specifically do you recommend that we look at other > than those two, and how do they differ from bash? I'm willing to give > another shell a look, but "Use this, it's better" isn't a convincing > argument for me. :) Better scripting contructs. Multiple selectable scripting syntaxes (even csh syntax, if you absolutely must). Built-in test with -nt, -ot etc. operators (like NetBSD's test(1)). Advanced variable expansion. Very advanced globbing, which includes selecting files based on their types, selecting only part of the names of the selected files, excluding files which match a specific pattern, etc. Programmable completion which can for instance be configured to complete arguments to common commands, e.g. package names for pkg_info or pkg_delete, CVS commands for cvs, user names for chown. More flexible prompt. A startup script sequence you can actually understand (why the h* won't bash read .bashrc if the shell is a login shell?). A large number of options which allow one to fine-tune completion behaviour, scripting syntax, globbing behaviour, and bug compatibility with other shells. Autoloading of functions when they're invoked. Builtin scheduler. Tons of other stuff. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 4:29:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF4D14D2D for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 04:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (207-172-143-89.s26.as1.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.89]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA20823; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907281128.HAA20823@smtp2.erols.com> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990728051209.6291815444@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:27:27 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Craig Harding Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Jul-99 Craig Harding wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > >> Speaking for myself, it's because people who don't know better >> depend upon its features, rendering shell scripts non-portable. >> >> In order to run these scripts, you have to install bash. >> >> In order to do that, you have to run "configure". >> >> In order to do that, you have to install GNU "make". > > You must be doing it the hard way, Terry. I usually find: > > $ cd /usr/ports/shells/bash2 > $ make install > > works fine. His point is more general than FreeBSD. Digital UNIX doesn't have a ports system for example. Thus, in order to install bash on Digital UNIX, you do have to do that extra couple of steps that you might not have to do with csh or tcsh or whatnot. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 4:37:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA7DF1542C for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 04:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:37:07 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDXF9; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:37:06 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 119S18-0004cP-00; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:37:02 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:37:02 +0100 To: John Baldwin Cc: Craig Harding , Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-Id: <19990728123701.A17739@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990728051209.6291815444@hub.freebsd.org> <199907281128.HAA20823@smtp2.erols.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199907281128.HAA20823@smtp2.erols.com>; from John Baldwin on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 07:27:27AM -0400 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 07:27:27AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > On 28-Jul-99 Craig Harding wrote: > > You must be doing it the hard way, Terry. I usually find: > > > > $ cd /usr/ports/shells/bash2 > > $ make install > > > > works fine. > > His point is more general than FreeBSD. Digital UNIX doesn't have a > ports system for example. Thus, in order to install bash on Digital > UNIX, you do have to do that extra couple of steps that you might not > have to do with csh or tcsh or whatnot. You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of ships with tcsh by default. On an aside, I seem to recall that there is an option to enable full command-line editing in Digital Unix's csh. It's been a while since I've used a digital box, though (it was OSF/1 still!). Wish they'd contributed their changes back to the community... -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 4:53:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from student-mailhub.dcu.ie (ns.dcu.ie [136.206.1.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 700C114F22 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 04:53:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pooka@redbrick.dcu.ie) Received: from mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (postfix@Mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE [136.206.15.2]) by student-mailhub.dcu.ie (8.9.3/8.9.3/893-FD) with ESMTP id MAA07651 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:50:39 +0100 (BST) Received: by mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (Postfix, from userid 2033) id B68FA43821; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:50:38 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:50:38 +0100 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990728125038.A4004@mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE> References: <19990728051209.6291815444@hub.freebsd.org> <199907281128.HAA20823@smtp2.erols.com> <19990728123701.A17739@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990728123701.A17739@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk>; from Dominic Mitchell on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 12:37:02PM +0100 Organization: My Own Private Hideyhole, Inc. From: pooka@redbrick.dcu.ie (Tiny Non Cats) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 12:37:02PM +0100 Dominic Mitchell said: > On an aside, I seem to recall that there is an option to enable full > command-line editing in Digital Unix's csh. It's been a while since > Yep, there is. I'm one of those ksh perverts, though. > I've used a digital box, though (it was OSF/1 still!). Wish they'd > contributed their changes back to the community... > Hah, little chance. Especially since Compaq own them now - I don't see Digital Unix going anywhere other than off the burner. Hey, with all the support Compaq are giving Linux, maybe DU will one day be open sourced. ;o) Speaking of DU and it's many namechanges, has anyone ever, in their wildest dreams, even imagined a name as horrific as "Tru64 Unix"? Are they _trying_ to kill it? Cian -- What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? Will you, like Peter, boldly say: "Who?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 5:55:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1871D1546D for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 05:55:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id A3A684209; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98C6F9B7D; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:55:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: John Baldwin , Craig Harding , Terry Lambert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <19990728123701.A17739@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: :You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of :ships with tcsh by default. 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %uname -a IRIX64 thunder 6.5 01221553 IP27 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %which tcsh /bin/tcsh 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %uname -a SunOS saisun31 5.7 Generic_106541-01 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %which tcsh /bin/tcsh Both Irix and Solaris ship with tcsh. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 6: 8:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D6116.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.157.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77FF715035 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:08:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07792; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:05:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:05:53 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: John Baldwin , Craig Harding , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <19990728123701.A17739@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: | You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of | ships with tcsh by default. Mac OS X does. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ I am root, hear me kill -9. -><- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 6:10:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D6116.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.157.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E085154A3 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07815; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:09:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:09:18 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: Sue Blake Cc: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Describing FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990728053439.G7324@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Sue Blake wrote: | On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:38:35PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: | > | > Me : No, this is FreeBSD. | > | > Brother: What's that? | > | > Friend : You know what a Macintosh is, right? | > | > Well, it's almost exactly unlike one of those. | | Right. Are you going to tell them about Mac OS X? :-) Ugh, don't remind me--I have to babysit one of these beasts at work :P -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ I am root, hear me kill -9. -><- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 6:38:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DFE14D9C for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:36:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id PAA21797 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:34:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m119QAw-000WyXC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:39:02 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Date: 28 Jul 1999 11:39:41 +0200 Message-ID: <7nmj4t$2uip$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <379D20CA.F7EC7E15@execpc.com> <199907272314.QAA00814@usr01.primenet.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > In order to run these scripts, you have to install bash. > In order to do that, you have to run "configure". > In order to do that, you have to install GNU "make". gmake is not required to build bash. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 6:46:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from merlin.rz.tu-clausthal.de (merlin.rz.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.1.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A7E15542 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rk@merlin.rz.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from rk@localhost) by merlin.rz.tu-clausthal.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA72783; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:44:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:44:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <199907281344.PAA72783@merlin.rz.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! From: Ronald Kuehn X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #124 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > :You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of > :ships with tcsh by default. > 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %uname -a > IRIX64 thunder 6.5 01221553 IP27 > 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %which tcsh > /bin/tcsh > 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %uname -a > SunOS saisun31 5.7 Generic_106541-01 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 > 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %which tcsh > /bin/tcsh > Both Irix and Solaris ship with tcsh. > Jamie Bowden Well, Solaris doesn't. And I doubt Irix does. Seems to be installed by the admin. Bye, Ronald To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 6:53: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567BE15084 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:52:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:35599 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:52:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:52:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Greg Lehey , Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') In-Reply-To: <19990728073305.A9956@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > \[\]=== \u@\h (/dev/ttyp8) \[\]\w\[\] \# ->\[\] set -o emacs-tabcomplete > > ksh: set: emacs-tabcomplete: bad option > > Because that option doesn't exist under my pdksh 5.2.14? All this means is that you could install zsh and bindkey -em to your heart's content. Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 6:57:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A16614FFB for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 06:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 16998 invoked from network); 28 Jul 1999 13:55:58 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 1999 13:55:58 -0000 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:55:58 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Alex Perel Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > All this means is that you could install zsh and bindkey -em to your heart's > content. > Some of us have the misfortune of only be able to run vendor supplied crap. We just got perl5 this year on some of the systems I deal with. I expect hell to freeze before I get to install a non-standard shell. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 7:10:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA56614F25 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA74826; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:09:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: David Scheidt Cc: Alex Perel , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jul 1999 16:09:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Scheidt's message of "Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:55:58 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > Some of us have the misfortune of only be able to run vendor supplied crap. > We just got perl5 this year on some of the systems I deal with. I expect > hell to freeze before I get to install a non-standard shell. Get a real job. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 7:11:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73502154A5 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:11:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:40207 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:08:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:08:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: David Scheidt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, David Scheidt wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > > > All this means is that you could install zsh and bindkey -em to your heart's > > content. > > > > Some of us have the misfortune of only be able to run vendor supplied crap. > We just got perl5 this year on some of the systems I deal with. I expect > hell to freeze before I get to install a non-standard shell. Well, you know, air conditioning technology has come a long way in the last few years.......... Seriously though, I know what you mean. A good friend of mine spent some time working in AIX shop. He desperately wanted to use perl to talk to their SyBase databases, but the (disorganized as hell) admin staff refused to use anything that did not come with a support contract. Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 7:26:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985BA14E1D for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:26:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id HAA45485; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:25:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:25:52 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newsyslog owner.group -> owner:group Message-ID: <19990728072552.A45334@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <19990727081046.B46030@dragon.nuxi.com> <19851.933089123@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <19990727090734.H46030@dragon.nuxi.com> <379DDF13.B7846D08@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <379DDF13.B7846D08@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 01:32:19AM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 01:32:19AM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Yeah, that sounds like Bill Paul all right. Once someone recommended > contacting him (Bill Paul) to a guy in the brazilian mailing lists. > I immediately sent a warning message, explaining that he would be > wanting to provide FULL details (and going into details into what, > exactly, is a "detail" :). "Too late," the guy replies to me, "he > stopped just short of coming here to beat me." :-) From my personal fortune file: You know if they ever find a way to harness sarcasm as an energy source, you people are all going to owe me big. -- Bill Paul -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 7:31:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BB7E154A5 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 44BF84200; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F7AE9B7D; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Ronald Kuehn Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <199907281344.PAA72783@merlin.rz.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Ronald Kuehn wrote: :> :You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of :> :ships with tcsh by default. : :> 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %uname -a :> IRIX64 thunder 6.5 01221553 IP27 :> 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %which tcsh :> /bin/tcsh : :> 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %uname -a :> SunOS saisun31 5.7 Generic_106541-01 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 :> 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %which tcsh :> /bin/tcsh : :> Both Irix and Solaris ship with tcsh. : :> Jamie Bowden : :Well, Solaris doesn't. And I doubt Irix does. Seems to be :installed by the admin. Irix does in fact install it. I happen to be the admin. Had I compiled and installed it, it would be in /usr/local where it belongs. The Solaris boxes are questionable. The previous admin was wierd, and may have just mimicked Irix's location. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 7:42:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ruhr.de (ns.ruhr.de [141.39.224.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3154E154A4 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 07:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ch@adimus.de) Received: (qmail 64280 invoked by alias); 28 Jul 1999 14:41:08 -0000 Received: from mail by mx.adimus.de with local (Exim 1.92 #1) id 119Uue-0008CF-00; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:42:32 +0200 Received: from det.adimus.de(192.168.0.1) via SMTP by adimus.de, id smtpdk30711; Wed Jul 28 16:42:27 1999 Received: from ch by det.adimus.de with local (Exim 1.92 #1) id 119UsM-0007B4-00; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:40:10 +0200 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Dominic Mitchell , John Baldwin , Craig Harding , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Christoph Haas Date: 28 Jul 1999 16:40:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: Jamie Bowden's message of "Wed, 28 Jul 1999 08:55:40 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 34 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden writes: > On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > :You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of > :ships with tcsh by default. > > 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %uname -a > IRIX64 thunder 6.5 01221553 IP27 > 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %which tcsh > /bin/tcsh Maybe, I don't have a SGI machine around to check, but ... > 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %uname -a > SunOS saisun31 5.7 Generic_106541-01 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 > 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %which tcsh > /bin/tcsh ... Solaris does defintely NOT ship with tcsh in it's base system. Ask your system administrator about it, this is definetly an add-on. > Both Irix and Solaris ship with tcsh. Nope. And I doubt that Irix does. Christoph -- Christoph Haas Adimus Beratungsgesellschaft für System- System Administration & Design, und Netzwerkadministration mbH & Co KG IT Security, Remote System Mgmt Universitätsstr. 142, 44799 Bochum Opinions presented are my own. Tel. +49-(0)234-971971-0, Fax -9 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 9:25:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C2614D54 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:24:56 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDXQZ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:24:54 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 119WVe-0004rk-00; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:24:50 +0100 Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:24:50 +0100 To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Cc: Dominic Mitchell , John Baldwin , Craig Harding , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-Id: <19990728172450.A18692@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990728123701.A17739@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: ; from a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 09:05:53AM -0400 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 09:05:53AM -0400, a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > | You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of > | ships with tcsh by default. > > Mac OS X does. Call that a Unix? ;-) -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 9:31: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D6116.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.157.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43DCF14DD8 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:31:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08381; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:29:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:29:41 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: John Baldwin , Craig Harding , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <19990728172450.A18692@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Dominic Mitchell wrote: | > | You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of | > | ships with tcsh by default. | > | > Mac OS X does. | | Call that a Unix? ;-) It's nothing more than 4.4BSD with a Mac gui slapped on top of it..so yeah, I do. :) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ I am root, hear me kill -9. -><- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 10: 4: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C96815367 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.220]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAC704; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:04:04 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA11734; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:56:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:56:56 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Len Huppe , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') Message-ID: <19990728185656.A11730@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728111853.K66861@freebie.lemis.com> <19990728073305.A9956@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728154207.V66861@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990728154207.V66861@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 03:42:07PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990728 10:20]: > On Wednesday, 28 July 1999 at 7:33:05 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > Because that option doesn't exist under my pdksh 5.2.14? > > Bingo! So it's not as good after all. *bwerk* Can't believe you asked a trick question Greg... That's not fair =) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 10: 4:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3174D14F9C for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:04:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.220]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA667A; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:04:11 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA11918; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:04:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:04:31 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Matthew Hunt Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newsyslog owner.group -> owner:group Message-ID: <19990728190431.D11730@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990727081046.B46030@dragon.nuxi.com> <19851.933089123@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <19990727090734.H46030@dragon.nuxi.com> <379DDF13.B7846D08@newsguy.com> <19990728072552.A45334@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <19990728072552.A45334@wopr.caltech.edu>; from Matthew Hunt on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 07:25:52AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Matthew Hunt (mph@astro.caltech.edu) [990728 18:20]: > > You know if they ever find a way to harness sarcasm as an energy source, > you people are all going to owe me big. > > -- Bill Paul ROFL!!! *spills his cappucino over his keyboard* This one really oughtta make it in fortune ;) -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 10:48:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tch.org (tacostand.tch.org [199.74.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8188D14C0E for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:48:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser@tch.org) Received: (from ser@localhost) by tch.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA36864; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:48:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:48:16 -0700 From: Steve Rubin To: Doug Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Point of Sale software Message-ID: <19990728104815.A36859@tch.org> References: <19990726205019.A30069@tch.org> <379D524D.53FD8463@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <379D524D.53FD8463@gorean.org>; from Doug on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 11:31:41PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As much as I love freebsd, 80-90% of POS stuff runs on OS/2, and is time > and battle tested. I really doubt that most businesses would be willing to > risk their livelihood on something new, on an OS they've never heard of. > But, good luck if you decide to do it anyway. You might want to search the > archives, this has come up before. Acually, I needed it for a store I was going to be opening. For what i'm going to be doing it crashing wouldnt be a really big deal, so it would be a good testing grounds :). -- Steve Rubin - ser@tch.org - http://www.tch.org/~ser/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 11:55:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [209.201.74.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A470E15025 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:55:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8AF3E4222; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BDFC9B7D for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 14:52:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! (fwd) Message-ID: X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I sent this earlier, but it doesn't appear to have ever made it to the list. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 10:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Ronald Kuehn Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Ronald Kuehn wrote: :> :You'll have to do the same steps with tcsh; no commercial Unix I know of :> :ships with tcsh by default. : :> 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %uname -a :> IRIX64 thunder 6.5 01221553 IP27 :> 8:54am thunder /home/jamie %which tcsh :> /bin/tcsh : :> 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %uname -a :> SunOS saisun31 5.7 Generic_106541-01 sun4u sparc SUNW,Ultra-1 :> 8:54am saisun31 /home/jamie %which tcsh :> /bin/tcsh : :> Both Irix and Solaris ship with tcsh. : :> Jamie Bowden : :Well, Solaris doesn't. And I doubt Irix does. Seems to be :installed by the admin. Irix does in fact install it. I happen to be the admin. Had I compiled and installed it, it would be in /usr/local where it belongs. The Solaris boxes are questionable. The previous admin was wierd, and may have just mimicked Irix's location. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 16:17:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFE515557 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02549; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:16:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd002505; Wed Jul 28 16:16:15 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18018; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:16:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907282316.QAA18018@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: crh@outpost.co.nz Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:16:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, tlambert@primenet.com In-Reply-To: <199907280512.WAA16356@smtp02.primenet.com> from "Craig Harding" at Jul 28, 99 04:57:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Speaking for myself, it's because people who don't know better > > depend upon its features, rendering shell scripts non-portable. > > > > In order to run these scripts, you have to install bash. > > > > In order to do that, you have to run "configure". > > > > In order to do that, you have to install GNU "make". > > You must be doing it the hard way, Terry. I usually find: > > $ cd /usr/ports/shells/bash2 > $ make install > > works fine. I tried this on my HP340, but it stopped me cold at the "cd". Funny enough, the same thing happened on my Solaris, SunOS 4.1, and AIX (PPC) boxes, too. Too bad I can't install (standard) FreeBSD on any of these. And I tried rerunning the shell script under all the other shells on the box, but it failed for lack of bash "extensions". My conclusion? "Standard plus extensions" is the same thing as "non-standard". I guess whoever wrote bash never had to deal with NDS being "Standard X.500 plus Novell extensions" or the Novell print model being "Palladium plus Novell extensions". Morons who add extensions, and then turn them on by default, are the bane of interoperability everywhere. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 16:31:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2399D15534 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13335; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:31:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd012997; Wed Jul 28 16:31:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19144; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:30:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907282330.QAA19144@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: dan@freebsddiary.org Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:30:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199907280837.UAA63207@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> from "Dan Langille" at Jul 28, 99 08:37:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Speaking for myself, it's because people who don't know better > > depend upon its features, rendering shell scripts non-portable. -------- ** **** ****** ******** ** ** > > It's a hellish web of interdependency, which could have been > > avoided, had no one installed bash. > > Ummmm, might I introduce you to: > > http://www.freebsddiary.org/freebsd/shell.htm > > You'll see that the above is not correct. I understand that the ports hierarchy has handled most of this for FreeBSD (except updating /etc/shells, like it should), but I'm complaining about script portability, and that means that at least one of the machines involved isn't FreeBSD (or Linux, to forestall anyone who wants to flame me on that particular technicality). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 16:32:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4965214C3C for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:31:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13759; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:31:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd013483; Wed Jul 28 16:31:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA19206; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:31:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907282331.QAA19206@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 23:31:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7nmj4t$2uip$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> from "Christian Weisgerber" at Jul 28, 99 11:39:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > In order to run these scripts, you have to install bash. > > In order to do that, you have to run "configure". > > In order to do that, you have to install GNU "make". > > gmake is not required to build bash. Really? How do you handle the expansion of an expansion that the current version of configure spits out when processing Makefile.in? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 17:31: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829D914EEF for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15319; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:30:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt011n65.san.rr.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <199907282316.QAA18018@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snipped] On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > And I tried rerunning the shell script under all the other > shells on the box, but it failed for lack of bash "extensions". > > My conclusion? > > "Standard plus extensions" is the same thing as "non-standard". > > I guess whoever wrote bash never had to deal with NDS being > "Standard X.500 plus Novell extensions" or the Novell print > model being "Palladium plus Novell extensions". > > Morons who add extensions, and then turn them on by default, > are the bane of interoperability everywhere. Aren't we mixing apples and cumquats here? You can't blame the shell itself if some twit writes a script that's supposed to be portable using non-portable scripting conventions, can you? I'm one of the biggest Bash advocates I know, but whenever I write sh scripts I am very careful to use only standard sh bits. In fact, Bash is probably the most POSIX compliant shell going, especially when invoked as sh. At the same time, I share your frustration with the "web of dependencies" that seems to envelop anything that goes near a GNU product. Bash is better than most, but obviously my preference would be that it was less GNU (and/or GPL, yes, I realize they aren't totally the same thing), but that's how the sky falls sometimes. Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 17:34:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C46014EEF for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:34:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15323; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:33:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 17:33:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt011n65.san.rr.com To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! In-Reply-To: <19990727234225.A33009@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Doug: > > > variables, > > > > Errr... Not sure what you mean by this one. > > Many variables to control features and shell behaviour, some coming from tcsh > and new to zsh, examples : > > setopt auto_list Bash has at least 3 different ways to control that kind of stuff, some with variables, some with the shopt builtin, and some with the set builtin. Some have more than one way to be changed for backwards compatability. > > How fancy do you want? :) Take a look at > > http://home.san.rr.com/freebsd/Bash-prompts.txt. > > Is this a contest ? :) Nope. My point was merely that you can get as fancy as you want with Bash prompts. > > Heh, "It's different" is a good description of how people usually > > criticize things. Also, most of the key bindings are configurable, > > including built in emacs and vi modes. > > Different from both tcsh and zsh (at least in emacs mode). The defaults suit > me more in both of these than in bash. Non sequitur. The fact that the defaults for one or another shell suit you better don't have anything to do with anything. If you couldn't easily twiddle something to fit your needs, that would be significant. The Bash defaults don't suit me all that well, which is why I have a set of configuration files that I use to "fix" them. :) Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 18: 9:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0939115550 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09498; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990728210934.A8627@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:09:34 -0400 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cool digital camera Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Brett Taylor on Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 03:13:09PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 03:13:09PM -0600, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, 26 Jul 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > > > I just got a digital camera, and of course had myself resigned to > > using windows to retrieve the pics, but I found out theres a program > > for FreeBSD called "The Washington Photo Server" that works with my > > Kodak DC210+ > > That's great. There's also gphoto in ports that will work w/ this > camera. Feh. You people all suck. Not using my software.. what's that? So what if I never got around to finishing it and actually releasing it somewhere. -- Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 18:35:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E4D15308 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 18:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA12852 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:31:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m119efH-000WyXC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:07:19 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Date: 29 Jul 1999 03:07:50 +0200 Message-ID: <7no9h6$1jol$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: <7nmj4t$2uip$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> <199907282331.QAA19206@usr06.primenet.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > gmake is not required to build bash. > > Really? The FreeBSD port doesn't depend on gmake. In order to be sure, I just build it with no gmake available. No problem. A lot of the GNU world is designed to be very portable, that's part of their claim to fame. > How do you handle the expansion of an expansion that > the current version of configure spits out when processing > Makefile.in? Please be more specific. Where exactly do you perceive a problem? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 20: 8:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (outpost2.inspire.net.nz [203.96.157.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CDA714CBF for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 20:08:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 88007 invoked from network); 29 Jul 1999 03:06:11 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by outpost2.inspire.net.nz with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 03:06:11 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: Terry Lambert Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:52:05 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199907282316.QAA18018@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199907280512.WAA16356@smtp02.primenet.com> from "Craig Harding" at Jul 28, 99 04:57:51 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990729030814.5CDA714CBF@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > Morons who add extensions, and then turn them on by default, > are the bane of interoperability everywhere. Ahhh, I see, you mean Microsoft syndrome? "Embrace & Extend", what a wonderful euphemism for covertly stealing control. We should start using it for the same purpose in international geopolitics. -- C. -- Craig Harding crh@outpost.co.nz "I don't know about God, I Outpost Digital Media Ltd crh@inspire.net.nz just think we're handmade" http://www.outpost.co.nz ICQ# 26701833 - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 21:21: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E651A1546E for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA01439 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:50:51 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA54922 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:50:51 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:50:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Asia Top 50 Web Site Award Message-ID: <19990729135050.J66861@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This nonsense was sent to FreeBSD-doc. I wonder how they selected that one. Greg ----- Forwarded message from top50@asiaco.com ----- > Delivered-To: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org > Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:09:24 +0800 > > Dear Webmaster, > > Congratulation! Your web site has been selected as the > "Asiaco Asia Top 50" web site. This is a competition among > 30,000 Asian web sites! > > Only the best Asian web sites will be selected and qualified > to be > nominated to this award. You can find your site at: > http://www.asiaco.com/top50/developer/ > > You can now place the award logo on your homepage, or > collect the logo > at: > http://www.asiaco.com/top50/awards/index.shtml#collect > > Attached is the award logo for you to place on your web > site: > [Asia Top 50 Award] > You can link to: http://www.asiaco.com/top50/ > > Keep it up and we hope to see you in the next winning list! > > Yours truly, > H.E.Mah ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 28 21:26:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A83FE154E6 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:26:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA01458 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:54:36 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA58658 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:54:34 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:54:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Asia Top 50 Web Site Award Message-ID: <19990729135433.K66861@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990729135050.J66861@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990729135050.J66861@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 01:50:50PM +0930 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 29 July 1999 at 13:50:50 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > This nonsense was sent to FreeBSD-doc. I wonder how they selected > that one. Hmm. Looks like I was too hasty. It seems they really have awarded www.FreeBSD.org tenth place in their list of developer web sites (but they didn't attach the logo :-). On a brief scan, I don't see *any* Asian web sites on the list, though there are a lot of Java sites :-) Greg > ----- Forwarded message from top50@asiaco.com ----- > >> Delivered-To: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org >> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:09:24 +0800 >> >> Dear Webmaster, >> >> Congratulation! Your web site has been selected as the >> "Asiaco Asia Top 50" web site. This is a competition among >> 30,000 Asian web sites! >> >> Only the best Asian web sites will be selected and qualified >> to be >> nominated to this award. You can find your site at: >> http://www.asiaco.com/top50/developer/ >> >> You can now place the award logo on your homepage, or >> collect the logo >> at: >> http://www.asiaco.com/top50/awards/index.shtml#collect >> >> Attached is the award logo for you to place on your web >> site: >> [Asia Top 50 Award] >> You can link to: http://www.asiaco.com/top50/ >> >> Keep it up and we hope to see you in the next winning list! >> >> Yours truly, >> H.E.Mah > > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 3:33:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9359814ED4 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 03:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA18475; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:31:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall network performance References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <37A02B42.C41FFAE7@newsguy.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Jul 1999 12:31:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Daniel C. Sobral"'s message of "Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:21:54 +0900" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved from -current] "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Jordan, God, what's the difference? > God does not belong to the -core. Good point. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 6:50:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cyberthrill.com. (dialup-hobax5121.mpx.com.au [198.142.190.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C02014E4E; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jillian_geddes@my-syte.com) From: Subject: web email Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:21:27 Message-Id: <161.156806.694513@cyberthrill.com.> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is hotmail as good as my-syte.com email? Jillian Geddes _*__ access anywhere anytime free email at http://my-syte.com __*_ 1st choice of name. my-name@my-syte.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 7:39:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2466415603 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 07:38:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-95.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.95] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA18311; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:37:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <37A0671F.581CFE7A@airnet.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:37:19 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: sysinstall network performance References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <37A02B42.C41FFAE7@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > [moved from -current] > > "Daniel C. Sobral" writes: > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Jordan, God, what's the difference? > > God does not belong to the -core. > > Good point. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no Sounds like a fortune to me. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 8:19: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224E214C8F; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA13592; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:18:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:18:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <199907291518.LAA13592@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c In-Reply-To: References: <199907291156.NAA06494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org < said: > Hehe. The point is that '8' does not specifically make apparent that we > want the 'Number of Bits per BYtes'. Your examples of ZERO and ONE do > not make anything more clear, whereas NBBY does. To be fair, what's usually needed in C programs is not Number of Bits per BYte (NBBY), but rather CHARacter's count of BITs (CHAR_BIT). To some extent, this is a result of a significant historical shift in meaning: Originally, a ``byte'' was simply a contiguous string of bits, with no universally-accepted length. Different machines had different byte sizes, and some were only word-addressable to begin with so packing and unpacking had to be done in software. Most famously, in PDP-10 terminology, a byte could be any chunk of the 36-bit word, and there were machine instructions to extract such chunks. Of course, we all know what happened: IBM took over the world, and DEC abandoned the PDP-10 in favor of the VAX. IBM decided to make an eight-bit character set (EBCDIC), and since their machines had 32-bit words it was natural to fix their byte size at eight. Eight-bit-long characters became standard rather before the eight-bit bytes did; this is why network protocols often speak of ``octets'' rather than ``bytes'' -- at the time protocolspeak was being developed, there was no unambiguous term for ``eight-bit byte'', so ``octet'' was borrowed from the French. 36-bit machines like the PDP-10 persisted for quite a while. Depending on the application and character set, character sizes of seven, eight, nine, and twelve bits were used. (This is the reason the `TYPE L' command in FTP takes the byte size as an argument.) They persisted through the era of C standardization, and the fine folks on X3J11, recognizing the need to for C to be portable, eschewed any notion of ``bytes'' or other explicit bit-lengths and defined everything in terms of characters. Hence, the smallest object in C as defined by X3.159-1989 is a character, and the sizeof operator is defined to give values in character-lengths. It was obviously necessary for programmers to know how big these characters were, so the committee invented the macro CHAR_BIT which provides the answer. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 8:55: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D5680.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.49.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06ADD155E1 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:54:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10830 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:54:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:54:45 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: ?? file Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I noticed the following file in ~ today: -rw-rw-r-- 1 cjc26 cjc26 255 Jul 15 20:09 ?? Both 'rm \?\?' and 'rm "??"' respond with "rm: ??: No such file or directory". Anyone have an idea where such a weirdly named file would come from? -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ I am root, hear me kill -9. -><- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 9:10:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923BE14C2D for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:10:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id SAA19703; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:09:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id SAA71185; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:26:38 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990729182638.54524@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:26:38 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ?? file References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 11:54:45AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality writes: > I noticed the following file in ~ today: > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 cjc26 cjc26 255 Jul 15 20:09 ?? > > Both 'rm \?\?' and 'rm "??"' respond with "rm: ??: No such file or > directory". rm -i * -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 9:30:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0DC26150A1 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 21152 invoked from network); 29 Jul 1999 16:30:01 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 16:30:01 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:30:01 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ?? file In-Reply-To: <19990729182638.54524@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality writes: > > I noticed the following file in ~ today: > > > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 cjc26 cjc26 255 Jul 15 20:09 ?? > > > > Both 'rm \?\?' and 'rm "??"' respond with "rm: ??: No such file or > > directory". > > rm -i * Or less error-prone: bash-2.02# ls -i 341631 ?? 342177 README.html 24717 pkg 350121 CVS 357958 files 341630 trace 342176 Makefile 222996 patches 39858 work bash-2.02# find . -inum 341631 -remove find: -remove: unknown option bash-2.02# find . -inum 341631 -delete bash-2.02# ls CVS README.html patches trace Makefile files pkg work David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 10:15:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB3315607 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14223; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19990729131526.B8627@netmonger.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:15:26 -0400 From: Christopher Masto To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <19990727075026.A27880@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990727234225.A33009@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990727174037.I12369@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990727174037.I12369@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 05:40:37PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 05:40:37PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 11:42:25PM +0200, a little birdie told me > that Ollivier Robert remarked > > According to Doug: > > > > > How fancy do you want? :) Take a look at > > > http://home.san.rr.com/freebsd/Bash-prompts.txt. > > > > Is this a contest ? :) > > > > Here is mine (zsh / tcsh): > > > > PS1="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%2.%(#.#.>)%b " > > export PS1 > > -=-=- > > set prompt="%h [%T] %B%n%b@%m:%B%.2%#%b " > > Wimp :P > See > http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/projects.html > and link to my .tcshrc. > Digested prompt: > set prompt="%B[%P]%b %m:%~\n(%l):{%h}%% " I have this abomination from when I first switched to zsh.. I'm not proud. function Sf () { echotc me [[ $1 != '-' ]] && echotc AF $1 [[ -n $2 && $2 != '-' ]] && echotc AB $2 [[ $3 -ne 0 ]] && echotc md } PS1=%{`Sf 6 4`%}%n%{`Sf 7 4`%}@%{`Sf 3 4 1`%}%m%{`Sf 7 4`%}:%{`Sf 6 4 1`%}%~%{`Sf 2 0 1`%}%(#.#.\$)%{`Sf - - 0`%}' ' -- Christopher Masto Senior Network Monkey NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 10:32:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from plab.ku.dk (plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4CB814D53 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:32:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tobez@plab.ku.dk) Received: from lion.plab.ku.dk (lion.plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.49]) by plab.ku.dk (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA26543 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:31:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tobez@localhost) by lion.plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA85388 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:29:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from tobez) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:29:08 +0200 From: Anton Berezin To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990729192908.E71112@lion.plab.ku.dk> References: <19990727075026.A27880@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990727234225.A33009@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990727174037.I12369@futuresouth.com> <19990729131526.B8627@netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990729131526.B8627@netmonger.net>; from Christopher Masto on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 01:15:26PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 01:15:26PM -0400, Christopher Masto wrote: > I have this abomination from when I first switched to zsh.. I'm not > proud. > > function Sf () { > echotc me > [[ $1 != '-' ]] && echotc AF $1 > [[ -n $2 && $2 != '-' ]] && echotc AB $2 > [[ $3 -ne 0 ]] && echotc md > } > > PS1=%{`Sf 6 4`%}%n%{`Sf 7 4`%}@%{`Sf 3 4 1`%}%m%{`Sf 7 4`%}:%{`Sf 6 4 1`%}%~%{`Sf 2 0 1`%}%(#.#.\$)%{`Sf - - 0`%}' ' Nice, though I would not say I like the colors. I have this, which saves me from running any kind of xclock on my desktop: PS1="%(t.(%T).)%30(t.(%T).)%15(t.(%T).)%45(t.(%T).)%n@%m %2.%(#.#.>) " Can bash do this? Cheers, -- Anton Berezin The Protein Laboratory, University of Copenhagen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 11:38:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51E81514D for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id UAA21550; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:37:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id UAA71446; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:54:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990729205428.49306@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:54:28 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ?? file References: <19990729182638.54524@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from David Scheidt on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 11:30:01AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > > Or less error-prone: > > 341631 ?? 342177 README.html 24717 pkg > 350121 CVS 357958 files 341630 trace > 342176 Makefile 222996 patches 39858 work > bash-2.02# find . -inum 341631 -remove > find: -remove: unknown option > bash-2.02# find . -inum 341631 -delete For several files with consecutive inodes, I think not, as in: 34567^H8 oops -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 12:10:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (rh5.bfm.org [208.18.213.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2244C1575A for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA00239; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:09:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:08:37 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 02:59:22AM +0900 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Expediently moved to chat.] On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 02:59:22AM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > Jordan exists. > > Don't go there. This whole existance-of-perl-scripts thingy is > dangerous territory. Jordan's existence is beyond reasonable doubt, which means legally he exists. I can present two arguments for his existence: 1. I once received personal email from Jordan. That would not mean much as of itself. But the *contents* of that email could not have been conjured up by any software except that running inside a human brain. 2. The mere lack of existence of Jordan's Witnesses, or any other proselytizing group, shows that anyone who claims he/she has actually met Jordan in person is telling the truth, as they, obviously, have no psychological need to prove it to themselves first. (I never met him personally.) So, why do I go beyond *reasonable* doubt rather than having *absolute* certainty? Because there is one tiny detail that may raise small doubts: Any photograph I have ever seen that purported to be of Jordan, was actually a picture of Keanu Reeves, just touched up to make him look younger. BUT! The pictures were touched up under FreeBSD, therefore Jordan exists. QED. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 12:24:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E422D15171 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 69727 invoked from network); 29 Jul 1999 19:21:08 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 19:21:08 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:21:08 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ?? file In-Reply-To: <19990729205428.49306@ns.int.ftf.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Phil Regnauld wrote: > David Scheidt writes: > > > > Or less error-prone: > > > > 341631 ?? 342177 README.html 24717 pkg > > 350121 CVS 357958 files 341630 trace > > 342176 Makefile 222996 patches 39858 work > > bash-2.02# find . -inum 341631 -remove > > find: -remove: unknown option > > bash-2.02# find . -inum 341631 -delete > > For several files with consecutive inodes, I think not, as in: Okay, then do this: bash# ls -i 341631 ???? 342177 README.html 24717 pkg 350121 CVS 357958 files 341630 trace 342176 Makefile 222996 patches 39858 work bash# find . -inum 341631 -print ./cee bash# bash# !!:s/print/remove find . -inum 341631 -remove find: -remove: unknown option bash# find . -inum 341631 -print ./cee bash# bash# !!:s/print/delete/ find . -inum 341631 -delete David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 12:44:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C24C150E6 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id EAA28432; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:43:29 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:42:59 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > Jordan's existence is beyond reasonable doubt, which means legally he exists. > I can present two arguments for his existence: > > 1. I once received personal email from Jordan. That would not mean much as > of itself. But the *contents* of that email could not have been conjured > up by any software except that running inside a human brain. So you say... but unless you show the contents as proof, this cannot be considered an "argument". > 2. The mere lack of existence of Jordan's Witnesses, or any other > proselytizing group, shows that anyone who claims he/she has actually > met Jordan in person is telling the truth, as they, obviously, have > no psychological need to prove it to themselves first. (I never met > him personally.) Aha! But you forget that Jordan employs avatars! It seems he usually prefer an unbearded one (of all things!), but one Karen (responsible for the daemonatrix) has photos of a bearded one. > So, why do I go beyond *reasonable* doubt rather than having *absolute* > certainty? Because there is one tiny detail that may raise small doubts: > Any photograph I have ever seen that purported to be of Jordan, was > actually a picture of Keanu Reeves, just touched up to make him look > younger. When you factor in that these are just avatars, it all makes sense. :-) > BUT! The pictures were touched up under FreeBSD, therefore Jordan exists. Ah, but the question is much more complicated than that. Does Jordan exists only while it is running, or it's physical representation on the disk (or maybe even listings!) is enough for him to "exist"? I mean, suppose freefall crashed (or wherever Jordan is running on nowadays), but the source to Jordan still existed, would you say Jordan itself still existed? And, in this case, what if there are multiple copies of Jordan? What if it's stored over RAID5? What if it has been mmapped() with MAP_PRIVATE, and then dirtied and stored in swap? These and other Jordan questions have busied the minds of many Jesuits for years! -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Is it true that you're a millionaire's son who never worked a day in your life?" "Yeah, I guess so." "Lemme tell you, son, you ain't missed a thing." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 12:57:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35F9155D5 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id EAA29323; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:56:27 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37A0B1CB.91D4498@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:55:55 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Scheidt Cc: Peter Holm , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: panic: softdep_flushfiles: looping References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > > Six weeks, and no computer more sophisticated than the SCUBA one, are what > I remembered. Someone remind me what a vacation is again? That would be a topic for freebsd-dreams or freebsd-utopia, I think. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Is it true that you're a millionaire's son who never worked a day in your life?" "Yeah, I guess so." "Lemme tell you, son, you ain't missed a thing." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13: 8:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E87150BF for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01329; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:07:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd001283; Thu Jul 29 13:07:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29868; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:07:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907292007.NAA29868@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:07:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: from "Doug" at Jul 28, 99 05:30:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > And I tried rerunning the shell script under all the other > > shells on the box, but it failed for lack of bash "extensions". > > > > My conclusion? > > > > "Standard plus extensions" is the same thing as "non-standard". > > > > I guess whoever wrote bash never had to deal with NDS being > > "Standard X.500 plus Novell extensions" or the Novell print > > model being "Palladium plus Novell extensions". > > > > Morons who add extensions, and then turn them on by default, > > are the bane of interoperability everywhere. > > Aren't we mixing apples and cumquats here? No. > You can't blame the shell itself if some twit writes a script > that's supposed to be portable using non-portable scripting > conventions, can you? Yes, I can. Scripting should be, by definition, twit-proof. No exceptions. > I'm one of the biggest Bash advocates I know, but whenever I > write sh scripts I am very careful to use only standard sh bits. Well, you aren't a twit. 8-). An apt analogy would be to say that the person who dies without ever getting into an automobile accident didn't need to use seatbelts, and so should have had the option of buying a car without them. > In fact, Bash is probably the most POSIX compliant shell going, > especially when invoked as sh. Does this turn off extensions? If it doesn't, then it isn't. > At the same time, I share your frustration with the "web of > dependencies" that seems to envelop anything that goes near a GNU product. > Bash is better than most, but obviously my preference would be that it was > less GNU (and/or GPL, yes, I realize they aren't totally the same thing), > but that's how the sky falls sometimes. I'm not complaining about the sky falling; we were asked why we (the people who do not like bash) don't like bash. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:11: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r17.bfm.org [208.18.213.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05A1F15630 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA00249; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:10:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:10:18 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990729151018.C223@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 04:42:59AM +0900 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 04:42:59AM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > Jordan's existence is beyond reasonable doubt, which means legally he exists. > > I can present two arguments for his existence: > > > > 1. I once received personal email from Jordan. That would not mean much as > > of itself. But the *contents* of that email could not have been conjured > > up by any software except that running inside a human brain. > > So you say... but unless you show the contents as proof, this cannot > be considered an "argument". What do you think I'm some kind of a Paparazzo to give out contents of Jordan's PRIVATE email? Ha! Not even for a million dollars! Adam P.S. Bids start at $10,000,000, cash only, US currency. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:18:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA6614F98 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16031; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:17:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016009; Thu Jul 29 13:17:09 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01029; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:17:09 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907292017.NAA01029@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:17:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7no9h6$1jol$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> from "Christian Weisgerber" at Jul 29, 99 03:07:50 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > gmake is not required to build bash. > > > > Really? > > The FreeBSD port doesn't depend on gmake. In order to be sure, I just > build it with no gmake available. No problem. A lot of the GNU world is > designed to be very portable, that's part of their claim to fame. Feel free to build gcc; first you will need configure, and gmake, and bison, and ... God forbid that you should be able to install one GNU program with replacing make and yacc with other GNU programs... > > How do you handle the expansion of an expansion that > > the current version of configure spits out when processing > > Makefile.in? > > Please be more specific. Where exactly do you perceive a problem? ${${X}} Replace "X" with whatever the current Makefile.in is causing configure to spit out today. If the FreeBSD port has patched to hack around that restriction, fine. I could have installed the thing as a package (binary) and also avoided the issue. I wouldn't be able to do a real "make world" if I did that, though. This is, of course, totally off the point, since if one non-default UNIX program (e.g. "configure") is required to build the program, my point is upheld, even if you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you can make it without "gmake" (I can to; I just have to edit out the expansion of an expansion, which causes Berkeley make to cough up a hairball). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:21:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84C214C1D for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17386; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:20:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd017338; Thu Jul 29 13:20:26 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01432; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:20:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907292020.NAA01432@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: crh@outpost.co.nz Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:20:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199907290306.UAA27042@smtp02.primenet.com> from "Craig Harding" at Jul 29, 99 02:52:05 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Morons who add extensions, and then turn them on by default, > > are the bane of interoperability everywhere. > > Ahhh, I see, you mean Microsoft syndrome? "Embrace & Extend", what a > wonderful euphemism for covertly stealing control. We should start > using it for the same purpose in international geopolitics. The way Germany did "embrace and extend" much of Europe in World War II... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:24:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F280014F98 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 23787 invoked from network); 29 Jul 1999 20:20:21 -0000 Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.40) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 29 Jul 1999 20:20:21 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:20:21 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Peter Holm , Freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: panic: softdep_flushfiles: looping In-Reply-To: <37A0B1CB.91D4498@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > David Scheidt wrote: > > > > Six weeks, and no computer more sophisticated than the SCUBA one, are what > > I remembered. Someone remind me what a vacation is again? > > That would be a topic for freebsd-dreams or freebsd-utopia, I think. > :-) Wrong emoticon there, I think! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:29:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CADB14F39 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:29:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24394; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:28:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37A0B958.1E4251D6@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:28:08 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <199907292007.NAA29868@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > You can't blame the shell itself if some twit writes a script > > that's supposed to be portable using non-portable scripting > > conventions, can you? > > Yes, I can. Scripting should be, by definition, twit-proof. No > exceptions. No matter how twit-proof you make something, they will always come up with a better twit. > > I'm one of the biggest Bash advocates I know, but whenever I > > write sh scripts I am very careful to use only standard sh bits. > > Well, you aren't a twit. 8-). Not this week anyway. :) > An apt analogy would be to say that the person who dies without > ever getting into an automobile accident didn't need to use > seatbelts, and so should have had the option of buying a car > without them. Hmmm... I'm not sure that I understand your metaphor. It sounds like you're advocating a "One true shell" approach, with no non-POSIX sh things added to it. While there might be some merit to it, it's not a very unix-y thing to advocate. If different shells are bad, how are different unices good? I strongly believe that you can't blame the tool if the craftsman uses it improperly. > > In fact, Bash is probably the most POSIX compliant shell going, > > especially when invoked as sh. > > Does this turn off extensions? Yes. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:29:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r29.bfm.org [208.18.213.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6B4D14F39 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA00262; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:27:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:27:25 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990729152725.D223@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 04:42:59AM +0900 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 04:42:59AM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > 2. The mere lack of existence of Jordan's Witnesses, or any other > > proselytizing group, shows that anyone who claims he/she has actually > > met Jordan in person is telling the truth, as they, obviously, have > > no psychological need to prove it to themselves first. (I never met > > him personally.) > > Aha! But you forget that Jordan employs avatars! It seems he usually > prefer an unbearded one (of all things!), but one Karen (responsible > for the daemonatrix) has photos of a bearded one. And you forget I *created* Avatar. :-) > > So, why do I go beyond *reasonable* doubt rather than having *absolute* > > certainty? Because there is one tiny detail that may raise small doubts: > > Any photograph I have ever seen that purported to be of Jordan, was > > actually a picture of Keanu Reeves, just touched up to make him look > > younger. > > When you factor in that these are just avatars, it all makes sense. > :-) > > > BUT! The pictures were touched up under FreeBSD, therefore Jordan exists. > > Ah, but the question is much more complicated than that. Does Jordan > exists only while it is running, or it's physical representation on > the disk (or maybe even listings!) is enough for him to "exist"? I > mean, suppose freefall crashed (or wherever Jordan is running on > nowadays), but the source to Jordan still existed, would you say > Jordan itself still existed? And, in this case, what if there are > multiple copies of Jordan? What if it's stored over RAID5? What if > it has been mmapped() with MAP_PRIVATE, and then dirtied and stored > in swap? These and other Jordan questions have busied the minds of > many Jesuits for years! Well, Jesuits tend to over-intellectualize things (I know, I graduated from the Gregorian University in Rome, technically in the Vatican, and most of my teachers were Jesuits). These questions are largely irrelevant because they cannot be answered by anyone running inside that system, and that includes all of us, except maybe Agent Smith, and those who took the red pill. Adam P.S. Just because Jordan's picture was touched up under FreeBSD does not imply that the Universe in which Jordan exists is running under FreeBSD, although that certainly would be an interesting possibility. Imagine the headlines if this were proven: "Jordan & Co. rediscover the Code" or "Universe Unleashed by Hackers". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:38:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from d66.ryd.student.liu.se (d66.ryd.student.liu.se [130.236.235.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5737E1509C for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:38:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eel@d66.ryd.student.liu.se) Received: (from eel@localhost) by d66.ryd.student.liu.se (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA00749 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:39:49 -0400 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:39:49 -0400 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alexander_Hav=E4ng?= To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990829223949.A598@d66.ryd.student.liu.se> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729151018.C223@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <19990729151018.C223@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 03:10:18PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > So you say... but unless you show the contents as proof, this cannot > > be considered an "argument". Hehe.. I've got proof. Jack on the icecast team made a live recording of a mp3 telephone interview with jordan. You can download the mp3 file at http://radio.audiotoday.com/archives/19990721-wnw.mp3. The jkh part is somewhere in the middle of the file, first is an interview with zed (the author of XChat). Enjoy :) -- Alexander Haväng [eel@icecast.org] - Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer, for chaos and madness await thee at its end. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:48: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89691511D for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24448; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37A0BDCE.B37C489A@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:47:10 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dominic Mitchell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <19990728094335.D16017@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:00:17PM -0700, Doug wrote: > > What features specifically do you recommend that we look at other > > than those two, and how do they differ from bash? I'm willing to give > > another shell a look, but "Use this, it's better" isn't a convincing > > argument for me. :) > > Extended globbing. eg: less [A-Z]*(.) to view all the README files and > suchlike in a directory, whilst ignoring things like CVS. Another > favorite is "find /sys/*~compile | xargs egrep", which looks in all > kernel source directories except the compile tree. You can do both of these with extglob in Bash. You could also put CVS in your GLOBIGNORE variable if you wanted to. > Programmable completion. As mentioned, this is coming. > You can get implicit tees and cats with redirection syntax. eg: > "ls -l > file1 > file2". Hmmm.. ok, that sounds cool, but personally I dislike adding features to a shell that are already present elsewhere. > You can turn off csh-style history easily ("setopt nobanghist"). Very > important! 'set +H' Why is it important (to you)? > For new users, if it sees a command beginning with rm and ending in "*", > it asks if you're sure. That's gotta be the number one complaint about > Unix from DOS people. Heh... well idiot proofing can be considered a feature. > Autoloaded functions (load on demand is a better description). I know > that ksh and zsh have these, but I don't think bash does. Hmmm... that sounds interesting, but I don't have so many functions defined that keeping them in memory is a burden. > One thing I find quite useful is that you can extend the "~user" syntax > with your own variables. So, on our web cache machine, I automatically > set "squid=/cacheboy/data01/squid" and I can then do "cd ~squid/logs". You could do the same thing with the 'cdable_vars' shopt, and not have to type the ~. :) > Generally, there are lots of little extensions that make life much > easier. I would reccomend looking at: Ok, I will look at those resources, and probably try zsh out when I get some free time. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, just pointing out that a lot of the perceived differences that people base their decisions on just don't exist. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 13:56:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5203E15197 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:56:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24458; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37A0BFD8.468A2177@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:55:52 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Doug writes: > > On 27 Jul 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > It's buggy > > > > How and where? > > Most prominently, it suffers from the same globbing bugs (well, > they're documented, so I guess they're features now) as every other > Bourne shell out there (specifically, if no files match a given > pattern, the pattern is left unexpanded. Real Shells [tm] issue an > error.) IIRC that's a POSIX thing, but you can also adjust that behavior with various options. In any case, it's not a bug. It's a feature that you don't like. > > What features specifically do you recommend that we look at other > > than those two, and how do they differ from bash? I'm willing to give > > another shell a look, but "Use this, it's better" isn't a convincing > > argument for me. :) > > Better scripting contructs. Multiple selectable scripting syntaxes > (even csh syntax, if you absolutely must). Built-in test with -nt, -ot > etc. operators (like NetBSD's test(1)). Advanced variable expansion. > Very advanced globbing, which includes selecting files based on their > types, selecting only part of the names of the selected files, > excluding files which match a specific pattern, etc. Programmable > completion which can for instance be configured to complete arguments > to common commands, e.g. package names for pkg_info or pkg_delete, CVS > commands for cvs, user names for chown. More flexible prompt. A > startup script sequence you can actually understand (why the h* won't > bash read .bashrc if the shell is a login shell?). A large number of > options which allow one to fine-tune completion behaviour, scripting > syntax, globbing behaviour, and bug compatibility with other shells. > Autoloading of functions when they're invoked. Builtin scheduler. Tons > of other stuff. I addressed some of those in my previous post. Once again, programmable completion is on its way. 'test' is a built-in, not sure about those flags, what do they do? What does the zsh prompt do that bash's doesn't? My experience is that it's very flexible. My prompt has xterm escapes and changes color when I su. As for the startup sequence, I don't have any problems with it... my .bashrc file starts every time I want it to. :) I also don't regard "bug compatibility" as a feature, but reasonable minds can differ on this. Doug PS, you seem to have [san.]rr.com blocked from your mailserver at yes.no for spam. rr.com is the road runner cable modem network, and while there are individual aberrations it is generally not a spam haven. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 15:31:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED7171560F for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id AAA23109; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:30:57 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id AAA71888; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:47:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990730004739.27227@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:47:39 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729152725.D223@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990729152725.D223@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 03:27:25PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav writes: > > P.S. Just because Jordan's picture was touched up under FreeBSD does > not imply that the Universe in which Jordan exists is running under > FreeBSD, although that certainly would be an interesting possibility. > Imagine the headlines if this were proven: "Jordan & Co. rediscover > the Code" or "Universe Unleashed by Hackers". Then you have to read "Permutation City", by Greg Egan (yet another Aussie). -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 15:37:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2111C14E5C for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:37:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (Hamilton-ppp44858.sympatico.ca [206.172.76.51]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA10005; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA24713; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:37:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:37:56 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990729183756.F24296@mad> References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 02:08:37PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 02:08:37PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > So, why do I go beyond *reasonable* doubt rather than having *absolute* > certainty? Because there is one tiny detail that may raise small doubts: ITYM "moral absolute certainty". HTH. HAND. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 16:13:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028F9154E6 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:13:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15730; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:11:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd015629; Thu Jul 29 16:11:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA12642; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:11:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907292311.QAA12642@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! To: Doug@gorean.org (Doug) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:11:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <37A0B958.1E4251D6@gorean.org> from "Doug" at Jul 29, 99 01:28:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Yes, I can. Scripting should be, by definition, twit-proof. No > > exceptions. > > No matter how twit-proof you make something, they will always come up with > a better twit. "If bash did not exist, some twit would invent it"? > > An apt analogy would be to say that the person who dies without > > ever getting into an automobile accident didn't need to use > > seatbelts, and so should have had the option of buying a car > > without them. > > Hmmm... I'm not sure that I understand your metaphor. It sounds like > you're advocating a "One true shell" approach, with no non-POSIX sh things > added to it. While there might be some merit to it, it's not a very unix-y > thing to advocate. If different shells are bad, how are different unices > good? I strongly believe that you can't blame the tool if the craftsman > uses it improperly. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"? While I agree with the sentiment, one could imagine a gun that would only shoot for its owner, and then only at people not previously designated as "friendlies". One could take this further, and preload the friendlies list with all politicians, police officers, and liquor store owners. It's easy to do a /reductio ad absurdum/ argument on such a basis, and prove the major premise false. To extend your craftsman/tool analogy, I blame the tool for being a poor tool if it leaves tool marks on the work. We can drag in the "x86Open" thread now, with the point that it really doesn't matter if you define a universal ABI that is supported by all x86 UNIX and UNIX clones if you can't turn off the platform specific extensions. You can't write code that even _accidently_ uses a platform specific extension, if your intent is to write portable code. The same reasoning is applicable to shell scripts. > > > In fact, Bash is probably the most POSIX compliant shell going, > > > especially when invoked as sh. > > > > Does this turn off extensions? > > Yes. Then bash is "mostly harmless", but _only_ if it is used exactly this way. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 16:14:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r15.bfm.org [208.18.213.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE3DC14DBC for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA00237; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:10:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:09:43 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Phil Regnauld Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990729180942.A223@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729152725.D223@whizkidtech.net> <19990730004739.27227@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990730004739.27227@ns.int.ftf.net>; from Phil Regnauld on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 12:47:39AM +0200 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 12:47:39AM +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Then you have to read "Permutation City", by Greg Egan (yet another > Aussie). Thanks for the tip. I looked it up at amazon.com, and it looks like something I would definitely want to to read! BTW, my own perspective on all this is expressed in the SF novel "Trapped" I wrote about four years ago. Alas, the title was self- fulfilling: The novel itself is trapped on my old 486 with Windows 3.10 on it, no monitor, and no 3.5" diskette drive. I wish I could somehow transfer it to my current computer, edit it, and submit it to a publisher. > Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. Hehe. Talk about Permutations. :-) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 16:16:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r15.bfm.org [208.18.213.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794C51561E for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA00247; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:16:08 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:16:05 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990729181605.B223@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <19990729183756.F24296@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990729183756.F24296@mad>; from Tim Vanderhoek on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 06:37:56PM -0400 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 06:37:56PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 02:08:37PM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > > So, why do I go beyond *reasonable* doubt rather than having *absolute* > > certainty? Because there is one tiny detail that may raise small doubts: > > ITYM "moral absolute certainty". HTH. HAND. Too aristotelian for my taste. I prefer "relative certainty," which is another way of saying "beyond reasonable doubt." Otherwise, I would suggesting that anyone who claims Jordan does not exist is working off an immoral certainty. :-) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 16:25:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt011n65.san.rr.com (dt011n65.san.rr.com [204.210.13.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C02815639 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gorean.org (master [10.0.0.2]) by dt011n65.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26238; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Message-ID: <37A0E26A.65662229@gorean.org> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:23:22 -0700 From: Doug Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <199907292311.QAA12642@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > It's easy to do a /reductio ad absurdum/ argument on such a > basis, and prove the major premise false. *Nod* That's why I didn't bother. > To extend your craftsman/tool analogy, I blame the tool for > being a poor tool if it leaves tool marks on the work. You can redesign the tool to a certain extent, but eventually it comes down to how it's used. > We can drag in the "x86Open" thread now, with the point that > it really doesn't matter if you define a universal ABI that is > supported by all x86 UNIX and UNIX clones if you can't turn > off the platform specific extensions. You can't write code > that even _accidently_ uses a platform specific extension, if > your intent is to write portable code. That would be a great tool, and you could argue that bash in 'sh mode' is almost that, except that depending on how fine you cut it I could make the argument that there are at least 3, and maybe even 5 different versions of "the true bourne shell," and up till recently there were some POSIX sh things that we didn't even support on FreeBSD. Of course, the most persuasive argument inre the problem of non-portability is the fact that it's easy to prove that the same people who abuse portability now would continue to do so no matter how good the tools were to avoid these problems because those people are completely ignoring the tools that do exist now. 42, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 18:29:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E747A15678 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:29:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA06314; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:59:09 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA56887; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:59:07 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:59:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Anton Berezin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Shells (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!) Message-ID: <19990730105907.N93194@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990727075026.A27880@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990727234225.A33009@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990727174037.I12369@futuresouth.com> <19990729131526.B8627@netmonger.net> <19990729192908.E71112@lion.plab.ku.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990729192908.E71112@lion.plab.ku.dk>; from Anton Berezin on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 07:29:08PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 29 July 1999 at 19:29:08 +0200, Anton Berezin wrote: > On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 01:15:26PM -0400, Christopher Masto wrote: > >> I have this abomination from when I first switched to zsh.. I'm not >> proud. >> >> function Sf () { >> echotc me >> [[ $1 != '-' ]] && echotc AF $1 >> [[ -n $2 && $2 != '-' ]] && echotc AB $2 >> [[ $3 -ne 0 ]] && echotc md >> } >> >> PS1=%{`Sf 6 4`%}%n%{`Sf 7 4`%}@%{`Sf 3 4 1`%}%m%{`Sf 7 4`%}:%{`Sf 6 4 1`%}%~%{`Sf 2 0 1`%}%(#.#.\$)%{`Sf - - 0`%}' ' > > Nice, though I would not say I like the colors. I have this, which > saves me from running any kind of xclock on my desktop: > > PS1="%(t.(%T).)%30(t.(%T).)%15(t.(%T).)%45(t.(%T).)%n@%m %2.%(#.#.>) " > > Can bash do this? Yes. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 20: 3: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763AB14DED for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA15392; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:02:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:02:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <199907300302.XAA15392@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c In-Reply-To: <19990730093259.A93194@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199907291156.NAA06494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19990730093259.A93194@freebie.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At the risk of continuing this already pointless thread... < said: > The primary purpose of the DATA statement is to give names to > constants; instead of referring to pi as 3.141592653589793 at every > appearance, the variable PI can be given that value with a DATA > statement and used instead of the longer form of the constant. This > also simplifies modifying the program, should the value of pi change. > -- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers From my ever-excrescent .plan file: There is no _inherent_ virtue in symbolic names. Pi over two is GROSSLY unlikely to change in circumstances where Pi remains constant. The *only* reason such idiotic symbols became popular is (I believe) that [a] bug in the original Pascal type definition mechanism forbids expressions in some random selection of contexts. Do not bow down to Wirth nor worship him. - Stephen P. Spackman -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 20: 8:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554B014EED for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from huppe@execpc.com) Received: from execpc.com (tigella-1-79.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.41.79]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.1) id WAA00526; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:06:51 -0500 Message-ID: <37A11765.A1F89957@execpc.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:09:25 -0500 From: Len Huppe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Greg Lehey , Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728111853.K66861@freebie.lemis.com> <19990728073305.A9956@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728154207.V66861@freebie.lemis.com> <19990728185656.A11730@daemon.ninth-circle.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is getting to be quite amusing. The camps are digging themselves in for the inevitable showdown over who's shell is better. Who will win the great shelling bee? Will it be a battle of wits or a bucket of bits? But seriously folks. I have taught the basics of Unix to several friends and coworkers and they all asked me the same question. I'm sure that most of you are asked the same thing as well. I always tell people that choosing a shell is the same as choosing any other tool. You use the one that will work best for you. Coming from a Linux and NT background, I feel comfortable working with Bash. It's better than what NT has, and it has more functionality than I'll ever use. As far as its capabilities as a programming language, I would much rather use Perl for that. If I write all of my user-land scripts in Perl, it won't matter which shell each user prefers. any rebuttals? > * Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990728 10:20]: > > On Wednesday, 28 July 1999 at 7:33:05 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > > > Because that option doesn't exist under my pdksh 5.2.14? > > > > Bingo! So it's not as good after all. > > *bwerk* > > Can't believe you asked a trick question Greg... > > > > That's not fair > > > > =) > > -- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl > The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project > Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best > Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 20:17:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (D5680.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.49.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFD214FC7 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:17:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11936; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:17:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: tankgrrl.bridget.mindriot.net: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:17:21 -0400 (EDT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@tankgrrl To: Len Huppe Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Greg Lehey , Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') In-Reply-To: <37A11765.A1F89957@execpc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Len Huppe wrote: | As far as its capabilities as a programming language, I would much rather use | Perl for that. If I write all of my user-land scripts in Perl, it won't matter | which shell each user prefers. | | any rebuttals? You moron! Python is clearly superior! ;-) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- main(q){q-6&&main(q+1),putchar(67+3*(19%q-q/4));} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 20:23:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7A81562F for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:23:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA06803; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:53:12 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA55093; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:53:08 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:53:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Len Huppe Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dominic Mitchell , David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') Message-ID: <19990730125307.X93194@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990727125231.A66520@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <19990727191738.A8427@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728111853.K66861@freebie.lemis.com> <19990728073305.A9956@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <19990728154207.V66861@freebie.lemis.com> <19990728185656.A11730@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <37A11765.A1F89957@execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37A11765.A1F89957@execpc.com>; from Len Huppe on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 10:09:25PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 29 July 1999 at 22:09:25 -0500, Len Huppe wrote: >> * Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990728 10:20]: >>> On Wednesday, 28 July 1999 at 7:33:05 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> >>>> Because that option doesn't exist under my pdksh 5.2.14? >>> >>> Bingo! So it's not as good after all. >> >> *bwerk* >> >> Can't believe you asked a trick question Greg... >> >> >> >> That's not fair >> >> >> >> =) > > This is getting to be quite amusing. The camps are digging themselves in for the > inevitable showdown over who's shell is better. Who will win the great shelling > bee? Will it be a battle of wits or a bucket of bits? > > But seriously folks. I have taught the basics of Unix to several friends and > coworkers and they all asked me the same question. I'm sure that most of you are > asked the same thing as well. I always tell people that choosing a shell is the > same as choosing any other tool. You use the one that will work best for you. > > Coming from a Linux and NT background, I feel comfortable working with Bash. > It's better than what NT has, I think that's one thing which applies to any of the shells we've been discussing. > and it has more functionality than I'll ever use. As far as its > capabilities as a programming language, I would much rather use Perl > for that. If I write all of my user-land scripts in Perl, it won't > matter which shell each user prefers. > > any rebuttals? If it works for you, go with it. I've found this discussion interesting enough that I've made the switch from bash to zsh, which doesn't have one of the more irritating bugs in bash: when working in a Microsoft file system with these brain-dead directory names with embedded blanks, bash goes completely crazy, while zsh is fine. I've got zsh configured (which takes far too long, btw. The port maintainer should add some .zsh* files with typical configs) to the point where it can replace bash, and I'll learn the finer points as time goes on. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 20:27:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA3515071 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:27:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from huppe@execpc.com) Received: from execpc.com (tigella-1-79.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.41.79]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.1) id WAA03195; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:25:28 -0500 Message-ID: <37A11BBE.C45B2B90@execpc.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:27:58 -0500 From: Len Huppe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hav=E4ng?= Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jordan exists References: <199907281524.LAA61875@dean.pc.sas.com> <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729151018.C223@whizkidtech.net> <19990829223949.A598@d66.ryd.student.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I realise that this will sound incredibly stupid to you guys, but what in tarnations are you talking about? It certainly sounds interesting to those of you that know who or what Jordon is or is supposed to be. Care to share? > > > So you say... but unless you show the contents as proof, this cannot > > > be considered an "argument". > > Hehe.. I've got proof. Jack on the icecast team made a live recording > of a mp3 telephone interview with jordan. > You can download the mp3 file at > http://radio.audiotoday.com/archives/19990721-wnw.mp3. > > The jkh part is somewhere in the middle of the file, first is an interview > with zed (the author of XChat). > > Enjoy :) > > -- > Alexander Haväng [eel@icecast.org] > - Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer, for chaos and madness await thee at its end. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 21:18:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D159514D84 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:18:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 70753 invoked from network); 30 Jul 1999 04:18:07 -0000 Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.42) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 30 Jul 1999 04:18:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:18:07 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Greg Lehey Cc: Len Huppe , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Dominic Mitchell , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') In-Reply-To: <19990730125307.X93194@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 29 July 1999 at 22:09:25 -0500, Len Huppe wrote: > >> * Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) [990728 10:20]: > > and it has more functionality than I'll ever use. As far as its > > capabilities as a programming language, I would much rather use Perl > > for that. If I write all of my user-land scripts in Perl, it won't > > matter which shell each user prefers. > > > > any rebuttals? I find there is a point at which writing a shell script is easier than writing the same thing in perl. My scripts start as shell, with bits of awk and sed, and as they get more complex, I tend to rewrite them in perl. For less than 100 lines or so, shell wins for lots of stuff. > I've found this discussion interesting enough that I've made the > switch from bash to zsh, which doesn't have one of the more irritating > bugs in bash: when working in a Microsoft file system with these > brain-dead directory names with embedded blanks, bash goes completely > crazy, while zsh is fine. I've got zsh configured (which takes far > too long, btw. The port maintainer should add some .zsh* files with > typical configs) to the point where it can replace bash, and I'll > learn the finer points as time goes on. The difficulty of changing tools is one of things that annoys me about the UNIX world. I've a friend that keeps badgering me to use mutt over pine. I have looked at it, and tried it a couple of times. But the learning curve is too great. There are any number of things I am told it does better than pine, but I can't do them in my sleep, so it doesn't matter. Lack of decent docs makes it even harder. A man page that tells me to go look at a web page is almost as bad as no man page at. In many ways, it is worse. Of course, outside of the UNIX world, one of the reasons that it is easy to change tools is that none of them do anything useful. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 21:36:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r33.bfm.org [208.18.213.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9246014D84 for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:36:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA00237; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:36:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:36:02 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Len Huppe Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alexander_Hav=E4ng?= , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990729233602.A223@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729151018.C223@whizkidtech.net> <19990829223949.A598@d66.ryd.student.liu.se> <37A11BBE.C45B2B90@execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37A11BBE.C45B2B90@execpc.com>; from Len Huppe on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 10:27:58PM -0500 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why, Jordan is the guy aliens have in mind when they say: "Take us to FreeBSD leader!" That's the answer to your question WHO Jordan is. As for WHAT Jordan is, that is precisely what we are so hopelessly divided about. I say he is an actual person, while many others are convinced he is a Perl script. Adam P.S. The US is going through the biggest heat wave in its history. Our brains are all drained. So it's actually not you who is incredibly stupid... On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 10:27:58PM -0500, Len Huppe wrote: > I realise that this will sound incredibly stupid to you guys, but what in tarnations are > you talking about? It certainly sounds interesting to those of you that know who or what > Jordon is or is supposed to be. Care to share? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 29 22:48: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9074C14D2A for ; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net ([216.78.101.43]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA26167; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA01733; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:50:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199907300550.BAA01733@bellsouth.net> To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Jordan exists In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:36:02 CDT." <19990729233602.A223@whizkidtech.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:50:27 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. -- Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 0:15:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8ED14BFE for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18369.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.49]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA02763; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 03:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id DAA05491; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 03:15:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 03:15:19 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: David Scheidt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!') Message-ID: <19990730031519.B2502@mad> References: <19990730125307.X93194@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from David Scheidt on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 11:18:07PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 11:18:07PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: > > The difficulty of changing tools is one of things that annoys me about the > UNIX world. I've a friend that keeps badgering me to use mutt over pine. I found mutt had one of the nicest learning curves around, actually. Or, at least, the nice /usr/local/share/doc/mutt/manual.txt file made it seem that way. total 214 -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 462 Jan 2 1999 Mush.rc -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 5491 Jan 2 1999 PGP-Notes.txt -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 1062 Jan 2 1999 Pine.rc -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 185573 Jan 2 1999 manual.txt -r--r--r-- 1 root wheel 12621 Jan 2 1999 sample.muttrc -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 1:23:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7D814CC7 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:22:11 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDYTN; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:22:09 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11A7vb-000MDU-00; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:22:07 +0100 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:22:07 +0100 To: Doug Cc: Dominic Mitchell , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-Id: <19990730092207.A85066@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990728094335.D16017@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> <37A0BDCE.B37C489A@gorean.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <37A0BDCE.B37C489A@gorean.org>; from Doug on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 01:47:10PM -0700 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 01:47:10PM -0700, Doug wrote: > Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:00:17PM -0700, Doug wrote: > > > What features specifically do you recommend that we look at other > > > than those two, and how do they differ from bash? I'm willing to give > > > another shell a look, but "Use this, it's better" isn't a convincing > > > argument for me. :) > > > > Extended globbing. eg: less [A-Z]*(.) to view all the README files and > > suchlike in a directory, whilst ignoring things like CVS. Another > > favorite is "find /sys/*~compile | xargs egrep", which looks in all > > kernel source directories except the compile tree. > > You can do both of these with extglob in Bash. You could also put CVS in > your GLOBIGNORE variable if you wanted to. OK, I wasn't aware of that. But can bash do: * recursive globbing? * numeric based globbing (ideal for working with MH)? * date based globbing? * uid/gid based globbing? Looking at the bash manual page, I see that it has inherited ksh's extended globbing, which is useful, but not quite as advanced as zsh's (bizzare? baroque?) globbing. > > Programmable completion. > > As mentioned, this is coming. Cool! It'll be interesting to see it when it happens. It can take a *long* time to get it set up exactly correctly and understand what you are doing, however. And by the time that you need to do it again, you've forgotten. :-) > > You can get implicit tees and cats with redirection syntax. eg: > > "ls -l > file1 > file2". > > Hmmm.. ok, that sounds cool, but personally I dislike adding features to a > shell that are already present elsewhere. True. I suppose it's a convenience thing though. I actually find it quite logical doing it the zsh way... > > You can turn off csh-style history easily ("setopt nobanghist"). Very > > important! > > 'set +H' Why is it important (to you)? Because I have cause to use uucp? > > For new users, if it sees a command beginning with rm and ending in "*", > > it asks if you're sure. That's gotta be the number one complaint about > > Unix from DOS people. > > Heh... well idiot proofing can be considered a feature. Sad, but true. > > Autoloaded functions (load on demand is a better description). I know > > that ksh and zsh have these, but I don't think bash does. > > Hmmm... that sounds interesting, but I don't have so many functions > defined that keeping them in memory is a burden. Well, it gets more convenient as your collection grows. > > One thing I find quite useful is that you can extend the "~user" syntax > > with your own variables. So, on our web cache machine, I automatically > > set "squid=/cacheboy/data01/squid" and I can then do "cd ~squid/logs". > > You could do the same thing with the 'cdable_vars' shopt, and not have to > type the ~. :) Well, that's assuming you're using cd. What happens if you're using less or any other command? > > Generally, there are lots of little extensions that make life much > > easier. I would reccomend looking at: > > Ok, I will look at those resources, and probably try zsh out when I get > some free time. And I'd like to reiterate that I'm not trying to change > anyone's mind here, just pointing out that a lot of the perceived > differences that people base their decisions on just don't exist. There are more differences than you think. A close look of the zsh man page is definitely in order! However, at the end of the day, so long as it lets you type in commands and get on with your job, it doesn't matter which shell you use! (an oft forgotten point) -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 1:30:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB04514CC7 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA01492; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:30:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA72802; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:47:02 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990730104701.52112@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:47:01 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists References: <199907281539.LAA09614@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729152725.D223@whizkidtech.net> <19990730004739.27227@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990729180942.A223@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990729180942.A223@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 06:09:43PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav writes: > > BTW, my own perspective on all this is expressed in the SF novel > "Trapped" I wrote about four years ago. Alas, the title was self- > fulfilling: The novel itself is trapped on my old 486 with Windows > 3.10 on it, no monitor, and no 3.5" diskette drive. Mount the hard disk on the FreeBSD box ? -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 1:32:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90B3E150EF for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA01849; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:31:31 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA72816; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:48:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990730104817.56382@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:48:17 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Len Huppe , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alexander_Hav=E4ng?= , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists References: <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729151018.C223@whizkidtech.net> <19990829223949.A598@d66.ryd.student.liu.se> <37A11BBE.C45B2B90@execpc.com> <19990729233602.A223@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990729233602.A223@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 11:36:02PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav writes: > Why, Jordan is the guy aliens have in mind when they say: "Take us to > FreeBSD leader!" That's the answer to your question WHO Jordan is. "I've Met Jordan -- He Doeth Not Liketh the French". -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 1:54:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from student-mailhub.dcu.ie (ns.dcu.ie [136.206.1.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A8CB14D94 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from singer@redbrick.dcu.ie) Received: from mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (postfix@Mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE [136.206.15.2]) by student-mailhub.dcu.ie (8.9.3/8.9.3/893-FD) with ESMTP id JAA05586 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:53:01 +0100 (BST) Received: by mother.redbrick.dcu.ie (Postfix, from userid 3245) id E0F4143822; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:53:00 +0100 (BST) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:53:00 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990730095300.A17114@mother.RedBrick.DCU.IE> References: <199907292007.NAA29868@usr06.primenet.com> <37A0B958.1E4251D6@gorean.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37A0B958.1E4251D6@gorean.org>; from Doug on Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 01:28:08PM -0700 From: singer@redbrick.dcu.ie (Brian Scanlan) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi. > No matter how twit-proof you make something, they will always come up with > a better twit. "Design a better idiot-proof piece of software, and the genetic pool will design a better idiot..." That is all... Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 2:26:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1BDD14D69 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA50005; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:26:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Garrett Wollman Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c References: <199907291156.NAA06494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19990730093259.A93194@freebie.lemis.com> <199907300302.XAA15392@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jul 1999 11:26:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: Garrett Wollman's message of "Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:02:07 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garrett Wollman writes: > From my ever-excrescent .plan file: > > There is no _inherent_ virtue in symbolic names. Pi over two is > GROSSLY unlikely to change in circumstances where Pi remains constant. So imagine you write a large program which uses Pi a lot. Imagine further that this program is being developed by several different people. They use literal constants instead of symoblic constants. So the program has different literal constants for Pi scattered all over: 3.14, 3.1415, 3.14159265, 3.14159265358 (truncated) and 3.14159265359 (rounded) - and that's assuming none of them ever makes a typo. Even if you manage to get them all to agree on one specific value (say, 3.14159265359), what are you going to do if you decide to port your application to a different system which has higher floating-point precision and want to use a more precise value of pi? Search-replace throughout the entire source tree? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 2:31:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071EE156AC for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA50104; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:30:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ?? file References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jul 1999 11:30:29 +0200 In-Reply-To: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality's message of "Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:54:45 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality writes: > I noticed the following file in ~ today: > > -rw-rw-r-- 1 cjc26 cjc26 255 Jul 15 20:09 ?? > > Both 'rm \?\?' and 'rm "??"' respond with "rm: ??: No such file or > directory". > Anyone have an idea where such a weirdly named file would come from? Try 'ls -b' or 'ls -B'. I'll bet the file isn't named "??", but rather some sequence of unprintable characters such as "\n\n", possibly followed by a handful of spaces. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 2:36:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6033614D69 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:36:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA50219; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:35:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Terry Lambert Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! References: <199907292020.NAA01432@usr06.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jul 1999 11:35:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:20:24 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > Ahhh, I see, you mean Microsoft syndrome? "Embrace & Extend", what a > > wonderful euphemism for covertly stealing control. We should start > > using it for the same purpose in international geopolitics. > The way Germany did "embrace and extend" much of Europe in World War II... Puh-lease! are you trying to invoke Goodwin's law? DES (whose grandfather fought in WWII, but who doesn't use that as an excuse to drag Germany's name in the dust) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 4:11: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B73153C4 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (207-172-143-219.s28.as3.hgt.md.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.143.219]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA02673; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907301108.HAA02673@smtp1.erols.com> X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199907300550.BAA01733@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: W Gerald Hicks Subject: Re: Jordan exists Cc: wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "G. Adam Stanislav" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30-Jul-99 W Gerald Hicks wrote: > No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. No. Haven't you seen the directory listing fo "jordan.pl"? Thus clearly showing that Jordan is a Perl script. Or perhaps a Prolog program. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 4:32:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37EF5156D8 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA53202; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:32:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: John Baldwin Cc: W Gerald Hicks , wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Jordan exists References: <199907301108.HAA02673@smtp1.erols.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jul 1999 13:32:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Baldwin's message of "Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:08:57 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Baldwin writes: > On 30-Jul-99 W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. > No. Haven't you seen the directory listing fo "jordan.pl"? Thus clearly > showing that Jordan is a Perl script. Or perhaps a Prolog program. Logic? What does logic have to do with it? Definitely Perl. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 6: 0:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45EBA15144 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18338.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.18]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29693; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA63492; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:57:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:57:38 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990730085738.C63365@mad> References: <199907292020.NAA01432@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:35:43AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:35:43AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > The way Germany did "embrace and extend" much of Europe in World War II... > > Puh-lease! are you trying to invoke Goodwin's law? If someone's trying to end this thread, I just thought I should point out, before they succeed, that Jordan, whose very existance has been brought into question by a thread of the same subject as this message, is a known and (possibly even confessed) bash user. Once again, we have a case of people spouting off in the mailing-lists without doing their research. All current academic papers studying the question already work from the assumption that Jordan is a bash script. I'll have to leave posting the appropriate references to Terry. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 6:50:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (rh23.bfm.org [208.18.213.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639CC156D1 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:50:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id IAA00243; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:49:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:49:05 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990730084905.A228@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907300550.BAA01733@bellsouth.net> <199907301108.HAA02673@smtp1.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199907301108.HAA02673@smtp1.erols.com>; from John Baldwin on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 07:08:57AM -0400 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 07:08:57AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 30-Jul-99 W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. > > No. Haven't you seen the directory listing fo "jordan.pl"? Thus clearly > showing that Jordan is a Perl script. Or perhaps a Prolog program. Has it occured to anyone that he may simply be of Polish descent? Or, a "popular leader"? "Programming legend"? The possibilities are endless. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 6:57:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r21.bfm.org [208.18.213.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06A9814C08 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id IAA00251; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:57:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:56:17 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Changing the value of Pi Message-ID: <19990730085617.B228@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907291156.NAA06494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19990730093259.A93194@freebie.lemis.com> <199907300302.XAA15392@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:26:36AM +0200 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:26:36AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Even if you manage to get them all to agree on one specific value > (say, 3.14159265359), what are you going to do if you decide to port > your application to a different system which has higher floating-point > precision and want to use a more precise value of pi? Search-replace > throughout the entire source tree? Is this a trick question? You should just change one occurence in an include file and run make. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 7: 3:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r21.bfm.org [208.18.213.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6C114C08 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA00257; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:02:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:02:32 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Phil Regnauld Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990730090232.C228@whizkidtech.net> References: <379F4390.950D08FA@newsguy.com> <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729152725.D223@whizkidtech.net> <19990730004739.27227@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990729180942.A223@whizkidtech.net> <19990730104701.52112@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990730104701.52112@ns.int.ftf.net>; from Phil Regnauld on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 10:47:01AM +0200 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 10:47:01AM +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > G. Adam Stanislav writes: > > > > BTW, my own perspective on all this is expressed in the SF novel > > "Trapped" I wrote about four years ago. Alas, the title was self- > > fulfilling: The novel itself is trapped on my old 486 with Windows > > 3.10 on it, no monitor, and no 3.5" diskette drive. > > Mount the hard disk on the FreeBSD box ? I wish it were that simple. It is an old MFM disk in an old computer with Win 3.10 with no networking support. I think the only viable option is to transfer everything to my regular computer via null modem. I never got to doing it because that is going to take an eternity. :-( Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 7:14:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9531C14C08 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:14:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA56937; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:11:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Changing the value of Pi References: <199907291156.NAA06494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19990730093259.A93194@freebie.lemis.com> <199907300302.XAA15392@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <19990730085617.B228@whizkidtech.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Jul 1999 16:11:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: "G. Adam Stanislav"'s message of "Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:56:17 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:26:36AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Even if you manage to get them all to agree on one specific value > > (say, 3.14159265359), what are you going to do if you decide to port > > your application to a different system which has higher floating-point > > precision and want to use a more precise value of pi? Search-replace > > throughout the entire source tree? > Is this a trick question? You should just change one occurence in an > include file and run make. You miss the point. Garrett was advocating the use of literal constants instead of centrally defined symbolic constants. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 7:28:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r36.bfm.org [208.18.213.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E801568E for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id JAA00237; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:27:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:26:50 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Changing the value of Pi Message-ID: <19990730092650.A223@whizkidtech.net> References: <199907291156.NAA06494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19990730093259.A93194@freebie.lemis.com> <199907300302.XAA15392@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <19990730085617.B228@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 04:11:24PM +0200 Organization: Whiz Kid Technomagic X-URL: http://www.whizkidtech.net/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD whizkidtech.net 3.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 04:11:24PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Is this a trick question? You should just change one occurence in an > > include file and run make. > > You miss the point. Garrett was advocating the use of literal > constants instead of centrally defined symbolic constants. I have just re-read the original message, and you are right. I have to side with you. Literal constants are dangerous. If you misspell one, the compiler will have no objections. You may be tearing your hair later on trying to figure out what's wrong with your program. If, on the other hand, you misspell a symbolic name, the compiler will generally complain (I'm saying generally, because you may misspell it into another symbolic name - a good reason not to use similar names), and you will catch the error right away. This, to me, is even more important than changing the value later on (although, that is important as well). Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 8: 1:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E351B156F2 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA17704; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:01:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:01:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <199907301501.LAA17704@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_fw.c In-Reply-To: References: <199907291156.NAA06494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19990730093259.A93194@freebie.lemis.com> <199907300302.XAA15392@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org < said: >> [I quoted Stephen Spackman:] >> There is no _inherent_ virtue in symbolic names. Pi over two is >> GROSSLY unlikely to change in circumstances where Pi remains constant. > So imagine you write a large program which uses Pi a lot. Imagine > further that this program is being developed by several different > people. They use literal constants instead of symoblic constants. So > the program has different literal constants for Pi scattered all over: > 3.14, 3.1415, 3.14159265, 3.14159265358 (truncated) and 3.14159265359 > (rounded) - and that's assuming none of them ever makes a typo. You totally missed the point. Go read what I quoted again. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 8: 3:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C04D1516B for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id RAA29283; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:02:57 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id RAA73547; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:19:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990730171945.22912@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:19:45 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists References: <19990729125245.A224@whizkidtech.net> <37A09679.88910EFD@newsguy.com> <19990729140837.A223@whizkidtech.net> <37A0AEC3.26237FB0@newsguy.com> <19990729152725.D223@whizkidtech.net> <19990730004739.27227@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990729180942.A223@whizkidtech.net> <19990730104701.52112@ns.int.ftf.net> <19990730090232.C228@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990730090232.C228@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 09:02:32AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav writes: > > I wish it were that simple. It is an old MFM disk in an old computer > with Win 3.10 with no networking support. I think there is still support for those controllers in FreeBSD, no ? -- Divizion by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 8:29:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B89B15701 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:43793 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:28:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:28:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Phil Regnauld , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists In-Reply-To: <19990729180942.A223@whizkidtech.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > BTW, my own perspective on all this is expressed in the SF novel > "Trapped" I wrote about four years ago. Alas, the title was self- > fulfilling: The novel itself is trapped on my old 486 with Windows > 3.10 on it, no monitor, and no 3.5" diskette drive. > > I wish I could somehow transfer it to my current computer, edit it, > and submit it to a publisher. What's stopping you from ripping out the hard drive and putting it on a nice FreeBSD box? A mount and a cp later, your work is saved! Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 8:32:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [205.236.147.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1645915274 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:29:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([205.236.147.18]:47633 "EHLO shattered.disturbed.net") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:32:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:32:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan exists In-Reply-To: <199907300550.BAA01733@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 30 Jul 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. Jordan really runs within his copy of xemacs. Yes. That's the ticket! Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 veers@disturbed.net -=- veers@samurai.com Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 8:40:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from high-voltage.com (voltage.high-voltage.com [205.243.158.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA55915274 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from BMCGROARTY@high-voltage.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:15 -0600 From: "Brian McGroarty" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <9D21C5EF5D46D31186D40008C7333C82@high-voltage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan is the name of one of the machines at Walnut Creek CDROM. (jordan.dev.cdrom.com) The machine was previously responsible for creating ISO images of FreeBSD distributions, which is why you see people writing to this very list asking about the location of downloadable ISO images time an= d again. At some point in the last year or so the machine realized itself - became self-aware - owing to a chemical reaction when the dander and accumulated fuzz of about a dozen cats held in residence gathered to bake in JORDAN-1's power supply fan. Today the JORDAN-1 continues to oversee FreeBSD development in capacities varying from president to cheerleader to code geek, ensuring the continued forward progress of the OS. This allows him the secure knowledge that he wi= ll continue to be needed for additional CD-ROM pressings, thus ensuring his continued existence. -----Original Message----- From: Len Huppe [mailto:huppe@execpc.com] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 9:27 PM To: Brian McGroarty; Alexander Hav=E4ng Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Jordan exists I realise that this will sound incredibly stupid to you guys, but what in tarnations are you talking about? It certainly sounds interesting to those of you that kn= ow who or what Jordon is or is supposed to be. Care to share? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 8:42:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from high-voltage.com (voltage.high-voltage.com [205.243.158.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D9D6156CE for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from BMCGROARTY@high-voltage.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:32 -0600 From: "Brian McGroarty" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org kitty_p kp; LITHT_FOREACH(kp, &kitty_lithth[JORDANTH_KITTYTH], linkth) if((*kp->appearanthetetht)() == THILLY_HUNGRY_KITTYLOOK) (*kp->kittybowl->fill)(tendervittleth&THOME_NITHE_TUNA); I thtill don't get why thith ith better for AI. -----Original Message----- From: W Gerald Hicks [mailto:wghicks@bellsouth.net] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 11:50 PM To: Brian McGroarty; G. Adam Stanislav Cc: freebsd-chat; wghicks Subject: Re: Jordan exists No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 9: 5:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from btm4r4.alcatel.be (btm4r4.alcatel.be [195.207.101.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F9B14D7D for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from livensw@rc.bel.alcatel.be) Received: from btmq9s.rc.bel.alcatel.be (btmq9s.rc.bel.alcatel.be [138.203.65.182]) by btm4r4.alcatel.be (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA13277 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:05:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from btm0uk.rc.bel.alcatel.be (btm0uk [138.203.64.189]) by btmq9s.rc.bel.alcatel.be (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12388 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:07:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from livensw@localhost) by btm0uk.rc.bel.alcatel.be (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id SAA09368 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:05:12 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:05:12 +0200 From: Wim Livens To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Wordprocessor/OS recommendation ? Message-ID: <19990730180512.J20292@rc.bel.alcatel.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I looking for some recommendations here. A friend of mine just got a new PC and is sick and tired of Windows. He never heard of unix before, but I got him very enthousiatic. He doesn't like fancy stuff, just somthing that *works*. He doesn't know anything about computers but just want to run a word processor, spreadsheet and some database application. Now, I don't know what I should recommend to someone like him. First choice is the OS: FreeBSD or Linux ? As a FreeBSD administrator, programmer, enthousiast I like him to use that so I can help with installation, etc. But since his primary use is desktop applications maybe he's better of with linux instead of running a lot of stuff (like wordperfect etc.) under emulation. Next, what's the easiest wordprocessor ? LyX ? WP ? StarOffice ? (I don't think I can get him as far as learning LaTeX...) So, is anyone using FreeBSD a lot for wordprocessing and such that is NOT a programmer / computer-addict / unix-guru ? Please reply to me, i'm not on -chat. Thanks, Wim. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 9:34: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (mail.palmerharvey.co.uk [62.172.109.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D6515180 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:33:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk) Received: from ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk (unverified) by mail.palmerharvey.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:31:35 +0100 Received: from voodoo.pandhm.co.uk (VOODOO [10.100.35.12]) by ho-nt-01.pandhm.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id PJ2VDZJ2; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:31:32 +0100 Received: from dom by voodoo.pandhm.co.uk with local (Exim 2.10 #1) id 11AFZE-000OLR-00; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:31:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:31:32 +0100 To: Wim Livens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wordprocessor/OS recommendation ? Message-Id: <19990730173131.A93553@voodoo.pandhm.co.uk> References: <19990730180512.J20292@rc.bel.alcatel.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990730180512.J20292@rc.bel.alcatel.be>; from Wim Livens on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 06:05:12PM +0200 From: Dominic Mitchell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 06:05:12PM +0200, Wim Livens wrote: > I looking for some recommendations here. > > A friend of mine just got a new PC and is sick and tired of Windows. > He never heard of unix before, but I got him very enthousiatic. He > doesn't like fancy stuff, just somthing that *works*. He doesn't > know anything about computers but just want to run a word processor, > spreadsheet and some database application. > > Now, I don't know what I should recommend to someone like him. First > choice is the OS: FreeBSD or Linux ? As a FreeBSD administrator, > programmer, enthousiast I like him to use that so I can help with > installation, etc. But since his primary use is desktop applications > maybe he's better of with linux instead of running a lot of stuff > (like wordperfect etc.) under emulation. > > Next, what's the easiest wordprocessor ? LyX ? WP ? StarOffice ? (I > don't think I can get him as far as learning LaTeX...) > > So, is anyone using FreeBSD a lot for wordprocessing and such that is > NOT a programmer / computer-addict / unix-guru ? Well, I'd personally reccomend LyX. It's really easy to use for simple documents (all I've ever needed), and because it's LaTeX as the backend, you get very nice output. You may need to spend a bit of time with him to do the initial setup (depending on his needs; the defaults are quite good), but after that, it'll be plain sailing. I don't think abiword is ready for prime time yet. http://www.abisource.com I've never used StarOffice or Applix. He may also like to try WordPerfect (it installs pretty easily from the port, but it's a big download. One of these days I might even get around to writing to that front-end to troff that I've always wanted... :-) -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 12:48:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2781570A for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:46:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA79386; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:36:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01773; Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:54:07 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:54:07 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Terry Lambert Cc: dan@freebsddiary.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990729105407.A1364@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> References: <199907280837.UAA63207@ducky.nz.freebsd.org> <199907282330.QAA19144@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199907282330.QAA19144@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 11:30:10PM +0000 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a point of information, and not generally disagreeing with Terry's other points; On Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 11:30:10PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > I understand that the ports hierarchy has handled most of this > for FreeBSD (except updating /etc/shells, like it should), The tcsh port correctly updates /etc/shells when the port is installed and when it is removed. It looks like the bash2 and zsh ports do as well. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 15:33:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF60D1573C for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09199; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:32:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd008706; Fri Jul 30 15:31:49 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA29953; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:30:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199907302230.PAA29953@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Jordan exists To: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:30:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jobaldwi@vt.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990730084905.A228@whizkidtech.net> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at Jul 30, 99 08:49:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 07:08:57AM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 30-Jul-99 W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. > > > > No. Haven't you seen the directory listing fo "jordan.pl"? Thus clearly > > showing that Jordan is a Perl script. Or perhaps a Prolog program. > > Has it occured to anyone that he may simply be of Polish descent? Or, > a "popular leader"? "Programming legend"? The possibilities are endless. Quiet... we don't want to let out the dirty little secret about why "jordan.pl" isn't in the source repository (hint: why did FreeBSD have to start over with the BSD 4.4-Lite release, instead of just integrating it piecemeal?). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 15:33:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7772D1573C for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA12624 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:32:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de!naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m11AL2a-000WyXC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:22:12 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Just who is Terry Lambert? Date: 31 Jul 1999 00:22:20 +0200 Message-ID: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I guess asking that question here isn't the height of tact, but asking behind a person's back isn't either. Just who is Terry Lambert? According to my copy of the FreeBSD handbook, he's not part of the core team. In fact, he isn't even listed as a committer. Which makes me wonder just what backs up his voice of authority. I'm increasingly suffering from the impression that I'm dealing with an intellectual version of Brett Glass. If I'm doing Terry injustice, I'd prefer to be told. Feel free to reply in private. ;-) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 16: 0:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104AB14DF6 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:00:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18321.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.1]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08505; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA67850; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:00:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:00:10 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just who is Terry Lambert? Message-ID: <19990730190010.A67824@mad> References: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 12:22:20AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 12:22:20AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > According to my copy of the FreeBSD handbook, he's not part of the core > team. In fact, he isn't even listed as a committer. He does exist. :) http://www.FreeBSD.org/~terry -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 16:21: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from slave2.aa.net (slave2.aa.net [204.157.220.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA71D14D28 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from normj@aa.net) Received: from aa.net (host8.207-55-125.aadsl.com [207.55.125.8]) by slave2.aa.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14132 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:20:27 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-ID: <37A234FB.95051D2C@aa.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:27:55 -0700 From: Norm Jacobowitz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.9-19mdk i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Cooperative Funding of Development Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Humbly begging your pardon lest this be perceived as spam ... but please take a moment to check out http://www.cosource.com/ . We are actively seeking help to make the site work for the BSD community in the way it now works for the Linux and broader Open Source world. Where you now see Linux folders, we'd like to add BSD folders where members request and fund BSD development. Norm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 16:53: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E830414E6F for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:52:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA13677; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:20:41 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA64490; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:20:39 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:20:39 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just who is Terry Lambert? Message-ID: <19990731092038.L56925@freebie.lemis.com> References: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 12:22:20AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 31 July 1999 at 0:22:20 +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > I guess asking that question here isn't the height of tact, but asking > behind a person's back isn't either. > > Just who is Terry Lambert? To quote one opinion: > From: Michael Smith > Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:50:19 +1030 (CST) > > Hmm. Listening to your litany of physical complaints, I have this > vision of you as a brain in a little clear plasic box, probably with > an ethernet jack somewhere. (end quote) > According to my copy of the FreeBSD handbook, he's not part of the core > team. In fact, he isn't even listed as a committer. Which makes me > wonder just what backs up his voice of authority. > > I'm increasingly suffering from the impression that I'm dealing with an > intellectual version of Brett Glass. If I'm doing Terry injustice, I'd > prefer to be told. You're doing Terry injustice. Terry is one of the fathers of FreeBSD, even if, as you observe, he's not a committer. Let's say that there were certain differences of opinion. That doesn't lessen Terry's contribution, though: without him, there probably wouldn't be a FreeBSD as we know it. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 17:46:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8849914BED for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:46:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07132; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:45:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990730183249.040d2220@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 18:34:19 -0600 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Just who is Terry Lambert? In-Reply-To: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just because Terry happens to be brilliant enough to agree with me on many points (and also in other ways, from what I've seen of his work), it does NOT mean that he and I are the same person. ;-) --Brett Glass At 12:22 AM 7/31/99 +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >I guess asking that question here isn't the height of tact, but asking >behind a person's back isn't either. > >Just who is Terry Lambert? > >According to my copy of the FreeBSD handbook, he's not part of the core >team. In fact, he isn't even listed as a committer. Which makes me >wonder just what backs up his voice of authority. > >I'm increasingly suffering from the impression that I'm dealing with an >intellectual version of Brett Glass. If I'm doing Terry injustice, I'd >prefer to be told. > >Feel free to reply in private. ;-) > >-- >Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 19:28:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E8B15239 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 19:28:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07940; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:27:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990730202201.040563c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:27:36 -0600 To: Norm Jacobowitz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Cooperative Funding of Development In-Reply-To: <37A234FB.95051D2C@aa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I personally am concerned about this approach, because I see in it some serious potential for abuse. Suppose Software Company A and Software Company B are competitors in the market for Product X, but only Software Company B produces Product Y. Software Company A comes up with a brilliant idea: why not put a "bounty" on the development of an open source copy of Product Y? Company B, which may have spent years developing the concept behind Product Y and building a market for it, suddenly has the legs kicked out from under it. I could see this as a nasty anticompetitive tactic. Even Microsoft might use it. --Brett Glass At 04:27 PM 7/30/99 -0700, Norm Jacobowitz wrote: >Hi, > >Humbly begging your pardon lest this be perceived as spam ... > >but please take a moment to check out http://www.cosource.com/ . > >We are actively seeking help to make the site work for the BSD community >in the way it now works for the Linux and broader Open Source world. > >Where you now see Linux folders, we'd like to add BSD folders where >members request and fund BSD development. > >Norm > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 20:11:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6561714DF6 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA14222; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:41:44 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA64950; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:41:41 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:41:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: Terry Lambert , crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What to tell to Linux-centric people?! Message-ID: <19990731124141.C64532@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199907292020.NAA01432@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:35:43AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 30 July 1999 at 11:35:43 +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Terry Lambert writes: >>> Ahhh, I see, you mean Microsoft syndrome? "Embrace & Extend", what a >>> wonderful euphemism for covertly stealing control. We should start >>> using it for the same purpose in international geopolitics. >> The way Germany did "embrace and extend" much of Europe in World War II... > > Puh-lease! are you trying to invoke Goodwin's law? > > DES (whose grandfather fought in WWII, but who doesn't use that as an > excuse to drag Germany's name in the dust) That begs the question of what side he fought on. (ducks) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 20:17:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05CE814C30 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA14231; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:44:32 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA64974; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:44:31 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:44:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Mailer wars (was: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!')) Message-ID: <19990731124430.D64532@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990730125307.X93194@freebie.lemis.com> <19990730031519.B2502@mad> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990730031519.B2502@mad>; from Tim Vanderhoek on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 03:15:19AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 30 July 1999 at 3:15:19 -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Thu, Jul 29, 1999 at 11:18:07PM -0500, David Scheidt wrote: >> >> The difficulty of changing tools is one of things that annoys me about the >> UNIX world. I've a friend that keeps badgering me to use mutt over pine. > > I found mutt had one of the nicest learning curves around, actually. > > Or, at least, the nice /usr/local/share/doc/mutt/manual.txt file made > it seem that way. That depends on what you're used to. I found pine impossible to use, otherwise I would have left elm a long time before. But mutt was easy. What does that say? mutt is more like elm than pine is. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 21:17:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAFD14FB2 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:15:32 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Norm Jacobowitz" , Subject: RE: Cooperative Funding of Development Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:15:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000801bedb0b$54637540$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990730202201.040563c0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Suppose Software Company A and Software Company B are competitors > in the market for Product X, but only Software Company B produces > Product Y. Software Company A comes up with a brilliant idea: why > not put a "bounty" on the development of an open source copy of > Product Y? Company B, which may have spent years developing the > concept behind Product Y and building a market for it, suddenly > has the legs kicked out from under it. Of course, this could only affect a company that was subsidizing the unprofitable development of one product with the proceeds of another. So it would really only act to level the playing field. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 21:31:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553691524B for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08684; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:30:56 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990730222252.040353c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:30:45 -0600 To: "David Schwartz" , "Norm Jacobowitz" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Cooperative Funding of Development In-Reply-To: <000801bedb0b$54637540$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19990730202201.040563c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:15 PM 7/30/99 -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Of course, this could only affect a company that was subsidizing the >unprofitable development of one product with the proceeds of another. Not true. Destroy a revenue stream, and unless the company lets a whole bunch of people go and downsizes, it can be in serious trouble. And if it acts ethically and continues to support its existing users, this will likely be sufficient to produce a big loss. The fact is that subsidizing the development of open source software -- particularly GPLed software -- in an effort to destroy a market and hurt a company can be a very dangerous weapon. Microsoft did something similar to Quarterdeck in the late 80's, with software that wasn't open source but WAS free. To ensure that DESQview could not compete with Windows 3.0, Microsoft made Windows incompatible with Quarterdeck's QEMM memory manager and at the same time began to give away its own memory manager for free. DESQview was not unprofitable, but the loss of the revenue stream from QEMM -- the company's best seller -- threw the company into turmoil and sapped its marketing budget. Quarterdeck never recovered. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 21:31:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B861524E for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id AAA03378; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907310431.AAA03378@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "Brett Glass" , "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" , "Norm Jacobowitz" Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:32:02 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Cooperative Funding of Development Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:27:36 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >I personally am concerned about this approach, because I see in it >some serious potential for abuse. > >Suppose Software Company A and Software Company B are competitors >in the market for Product X, but only Software Company B produces >Product Y. Software Company A comes up with a brilliant idea: why >not put a "bounty" on the development of an open source copy of >Product Y? Company B, which may have spent years developing the >concept behind Product Y and building a market for it, suddenly >has the legs kicked out from under it. Right now nothing stops any company from doing what you describe above. At least if they go through a site like cosource it would be publicly known that they are going this route. >I could see this as a nasty anticompetitive tactic. Even >Microsoft might use it. Not really. Microsoft likes better buying whole companies for this purpose (Fox Holdings, Hotmail, the 150M investment in Apple...) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 21:56:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C041014D32 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp18368.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.130.48]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA16684; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA70873; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:56:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:56:32 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Greg Lehey Cc: David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mailer wars (was: Shell wars (was: What to tell to Linux-centric people?!')) Message-ID: <19990731005632.B70832@mad> References: <19990730125307.X93194@freebie.lemis.com> <19990730031519.B2502@mad> <19990731124430.D64532@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990731124430.D64532@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:14:30PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:14:30PM -0400, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > I found mutt had one of the nicest learning curves around, actually. > > That depends on what you're used to. I found pine impossible to use, > otherwise I would have left elm a long time before. But mutt was > easy. What does that say? mutt is more like elm than pine is. I was used to pine. I had actually tried elm once but found it impossible to use. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 30 23:34:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2DA14EE7 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:34:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (ppp-1055-15-157-199.iol.it [151.15.157.199]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15865; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 08:33:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990731083132.01ab3300@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.2 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 08:36:09 +0200 To: Wim Livens From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Wordprocessor/OS recommendation ? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990730180512.J20292@rc.bel.alcatel.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 30/07/99, you wrote: >Now, I don't know what I should recommend to someone like him. First choice is >the OS: FreeBSD or Linux ? As a FreeBSD administrator, programmer, enthousiast >I like him to use that so I can help with installation, etc. But since his >primary use is desktop applications maybe he's better of with linux instead of >running a lot of stuff (like wordperfect etc.) under emulation. For the use of a good wordpro you can install FreeBSD... The main two wordpro programs for Linux, staroffice and wordperfect, run fine under emulation. I use both of them and I found that wordperfect is lighter to use but has a worse compatibility with windows word (and some bugs too :-) StarOffice 5.1 works fine but is heavier to load (you need at least 64mb and a good cpu). Take both of them and try yourself to see ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 0:51:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA7E14BCC for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:51:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.9]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAB617B; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:50:03 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA56852; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:37:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:37:08 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Just who is Terry Lambert? Message-ID: <19990731093708.B56789@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <7nt8is$2dlv$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 12:22:20AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Christian Weisgerber (naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) [990731 03:50]: > Just who is Terry Lambert? Some call him Mr. Init or Mr. Kernel on occasion... Take a peek 'round /usr/src/sbin/init IIRC. Terry falls into the line like bde, jkh, and such when it comes to statements... -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 0:52: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C5714FA5 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:51:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.9]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAC617B; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:50:04 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA56856; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:39:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:39:59 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Jordan exists Message-ID: <19990731093958.C56789@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <19990729233602.A223@whizkidtech.net> <199907300550.BAA01733@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.3i In-Reply-To: <199907300550.BAA01733@bellsouth.net>; from W Gerald Hicks on Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 01:50:27AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * W Gerald Hicks (wghicks@bellsouth.net) [990730 08:22]: > No. Jordan is coded in Lisp. Franz Lisp to be exact. Actually, you are wrong, and the lot of you... jordan.pl was a typo, it really ought to have been jordan.tcl using tcl 8.1 And I thought someone just mv'd him to his new name... -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Cum angelis et pueris, fideles inveniamur. Quis est iste Rex gloriae...? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 7:30:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4751314CE0 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (freyes.static.inch.com [207.240.212.43]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UTIL-INCH-2.0.0) with SMTP id KAA07337 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907311430.KAA07337@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:30:22 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: BSD lightness: Free/Net/Open Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As part of some talks about about a NY BSD users group I found a technical school using NetBSD. They mentioned a project of converting a number of old 486s to NetBSD. One of the topics that came up was which BSD would need less resources and run best with old hardware (assuming both Free/Net would install). From what I gather the project will be making the old 486s Xterminals. Could this be something that could be done with PicoBSD? Also what would me a MINIMUN usable amount of memory to run X. 16MB? These are computers other departments were throwing out so I don't think they have much of a budget to go around upgrading memory. I have always wanted to take a look at the other BSDs so I am looking forward to help them and see how NetBSD compares. They are also doing a BSD lab which sounds like it would be interesting too (research, students and faculty connectivity to the network...). I was very please to read from them all they are doing with BSDs. Although NetBSD seems their primary BSD they also have some FreeBSDs (although it seemed it was just a couple of them). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 9: 0:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF9114CD3 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13536 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:00:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990731095921.04050540@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:00:05 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Linux port for IA-64 expected in SIX MONTHS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?990730.pilin64.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 10:37:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C68A415113 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 86576 invoked from network); 31 Jul 1999 17:36:17 -0000 Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@207.229.143.41) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 31 Jul 1999 17:36:17 -0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:36:17 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt To: Francisco Reyes Cc: FreeBSd Chat list Subject: Re: BSD lightness: Free/Net/Open In-Reply-To: <199907311430.KAA07337@arutam.inch.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Francisco Reyes wrote: > Also what would me a MINIMUN usable amount of memory to run X. 16MB? > These are computers other departments were throwing out so I don't > think they have much of a budget to go around upgrading memory. I ran X on a 16MB P60, with a 512KB video card. Don't forget to configure your swap space. It works. There are things like occaisonal pauses while the machine swaps. This was running almost everyting locally. If you were running things off of a remote compute server, i would expect it be much better, expecially if you can avoid running things like Netscape. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 13:11: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B2214D06; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id FAA25719; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 05:08:59 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37A357BD.6BFC5778@newsguy.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 05:08:29 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting inside, looking out... References: <14964.933450146.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Subject: Sitting inside, looking out... > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:42:26 +0200 > From: Poul-Henning Kamp > BCC: Blind Distribution List: ; Poul, this message is the best description I have seen of how FreeBSD works from an administrative point of view (and focusing on the politics of it, instead of the procedures). I'd say a revised version of it might be good stuff for the handbook. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org - Jordan, God, what's the difference? - God doesn't belong to the -core. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 20:17: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9785915123; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17407; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:15:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990731210805.0404c460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:08:37 -0600 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Sitting inside, looking out... In-Reply-To: <37A357BD.6BFC5778@newsguy.com> References: <14964.933450146.1@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If that's so, where can one find the message? --Brett Glass At 05:08 AM 8/1/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > Subject: Sitting inside, looking out... > > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:42:26 +0200 > > From: Poul-Henning Kamp > > BCC: Blind Distribution List: ; > >Poul, this message is the best description I have seen of how >FreeBSD works from an administrative point of view (and focusing on >the politics of it, instead of the procedures). > >I'd say a revised version of it might be good stuff for the >handbook. > >-- >Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) >dcs@newsguy.com >dcs@freebsd.org > > - Jordan, God, what's the difference? > - God doesn't belong to the -core. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 20:23:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DC8E15871 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:23:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 6726173C; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:20:48 -0700 From: Chris Piazza To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sitting inside, looking out... Message-ID: <19990801202048.C337@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <14964.933450146.1@critter.freebsd.dk> <37A357BD.6BFC5778@newsguy.com> <4.2.0.58.19990731210805.0404c460@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990731210805.0404c460@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 09:08:37PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 09:08:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > If that's so, where can one find the message? > It was posted to -current at least: http://docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=456700+0+current/freebsd-current -Chris > > At 05:08 AM 8/1/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > >Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > > > > Subject: Sitting inside, looking out... > > > Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:42:26 +0200 > > > From: Poul-Henning Kamp > > > BCC: Blind Distribution List: ; > > > >Poul, this message is the best description I have seen of how > >FreeBSD works from an administrative point of view (and focusing on > >the politics of it, instead of the procedures). > > > >I'd say a revised version of it might be good stuff for the > >handbook. > > -- cpiazza@home.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org "I don't like principles. I prefer prejudices." -Oscar Wilde To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 31 23:56:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C341C14DBB for ; Sat, 31 Jul 1999 23:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-74-202.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.74.202]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (3.3.0/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA21263; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 02:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA01159; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 02:57:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199908010657.CAA01159@bellsouth.net> To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Linux port for IA-64 expected in SIX MONTHS In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:00:05 MDT." <4.2.0.58.19990731095921.04050540@localhost> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 02:57:46 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yawn... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message