From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 9 5:46:13 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from intranova.net (blacklisted.intranova.net [209.3.31.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8CF4414E87 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 05:46:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 17102 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2000 08:48:10 -0000 Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (user97895@209.201.95.10) by blacklisted.intranova.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2000 08:48:10 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:44:10 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Michael Lucas Cc: Peter Schwenk , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: license (no longer Re: uptimes, Woo Hoo) In-Reply-To: <200001071413.JAA17543@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG But if you're going to make open-source, expect it to be in a photocopier's brain, but that photocopier is required to give you recognition... Omachonu Ogali Intranova Networking Group On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, Michael Lucas wrote: > >From a business standpoint, yes, the BSDL is delightful. "Here, have > this, it's free, do whatever you want with it." What business > wouldn't like that? > > But what do *we* get out of it? Simply the satisfaction of knowing > your work is in a photocopier's brain? > > ==ml > > > > > It appears to me, at least from a business standpoint, that the BSDL is the > > free-est of all in that all it requires of the licensee is recognition of the > > source of the work. I think that's why Apple's used it for it's upcoming Mac OS > > X. They can use the FreeBSD source and still not be required to ship source with > > their product. That way they can keep whatever fancy stuff they've done to it > > private and keep a competitive advantage. Not very cool from a GPL, Open Source > > standpoint, but I'm sure Apple likes it. I thought I heard a rumor that Apple has > > contributed some source back to the FreeBSD project, but that's just hearsay. > > > > Michael Lucas wrote: > > > > > So, is there any highfalutin' purpose behind the BSDL? Or is it as > > > nonpolitical as it appears to be? Having had this argument many > > > times, I'd like something better than "we don't care"; from an > > > advocacy point of view, that never comes across well. > > > > -- > > PETER SCHWENK | UNIX System Administrator > > Department of Mathematical Sciences | University of Delaware > > schwenk@math.udel.edu | (302)831-0437 <-NEW!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 9 5:53:26 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from intranova.net (blacklisted.intranova.net [209.3.31.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 305DC152D8 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 05:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oogali@intranova.net) Received: (qmail 19811 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2000 08:55:10 -0000 Received: from hydrant.intranova.net (user29428@209.201.95.10) by blacklisted.intranova.net with SMTP; 9 Jan 2000 08:55:10 -0000 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 08:51:10 -0500 (EST) From: Omachonu Ogali To: Jamie Howard Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Michael Lucas , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: article on 4.0 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG *STATIC* Houston, we have a problem, over. *STATIC* Omachonu Ogali Intranova Networking Group On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Jamie Howard wrote: > On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Wes Peters wrote: > > > We've standardized on the ANSI/ISO buttload to avoid confusion, and > > conversion errors. > > Did you remember to tell the engineers at NASA and Lockheed-Martin? > > Jamie > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 9 15: 2:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82AF14D05; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 15:02:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21073; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:02:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 18:02:19 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Olaf Hoyer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: German FreeBSD and advocacy In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000109040233.00c481a0@mail.rz.fh-wilhelmshaven.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 9 Jan 2000, Olaf Hoyer wrote: > > (Please forgive me for using Microshit products, but my whole emailing > resides also for some compatibility/archiving (about 8000 mails) reasons > for years on it. If someone could recommend a product like Eudora Pro for > FreeBSD, I'd be happy ;-) ) > actually the mailbox formats are the same format that elm/pine/mutt read afaik. so there ya go ;) > Ok: My idea was to do some work in the advocacy field regarding germany, > and contributing to the documentation (translating/working on handbook and > howtos, perhaps a pile/booklet of manpages came to my mind), as my spare > time will allow. > If you;ve got the spare time, I'm sure that would help ALOT. Advocacy is just as important as coding IMHO. > > > Thought was to do something with a german booklet, a nice and snappy > packaging, so that it can compete against a big Linux package sitting next > to it on the shelf. > Of course, here has to be done some work/research with walnut creek, as > they are doing some business also with that, inhowfar one could come > together on that issue. > Thats probably a good idea, but I'll let the guys that do that for a living answer to that one ;) -Pat> __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Jan 9 20:15: 7 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailext03.compaq.com (mailext03.compaq.com [207.18.199.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5972E151E0 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 20:15:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com) Received: by mailext03.compaq.com (Postfix, from userid 12345) id D70CA15200A; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:15:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from mailint11.im.hou.compaq.com (mailint11.compaq.com [207.18.199.189]) by mailext03.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1201148506; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:15:01 -0600 (CST) Received: by mailint11.im.hou.compaq.com (Postfix, from userid 12345) id 7D84255F02; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:14:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (unknown [16.158.59.135]) by mailint11.im.hou.compaq.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B13252D01; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 22:14:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by mojave.worldwide.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA00659; Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:49:03 +0800 (SGT) (envelope-from grog) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 16:49:03 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: Terry Lambert , Bill Fumerola , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mention on Charlie Rose program Message-ID: <20000109164902.C515@mojave.worldwide.lemis.com> Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <200001080244.TAA24742@usr09.primenet.com> <20000108132012.A2853@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <20000108132012.A2853@marder-1>; from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 01:20:12PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 8 January 2000 at 13:20:12 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Jan 08, 2000 at 02:44:16AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>>> Charlie Rose asked him a leading question about "Linux Torvalds >>>> has stated that if he'd known about FreeBSD, he'd never have >>>> created Linux; what's your reaction to that?". >>> >>> When did Linus state that? >> >> Presumably, before Charlie Rose quoted him. >> > > IIRC, what Linus actually said was, "If FreeBSD had appeared 2 years > earlier, then Linux would never have happened". This is closer to what I recall. > Doesn't Linux pre-date FreeBSD? Yes. This statement might have done, too. I think he was referring to freely available BSD in general. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jan 10 13:22:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5412A1542A for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:22:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id ACC991C5C; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D673819; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:47:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 21:47:18 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mention on Charlie Rose program In-Reply-To: <200001080244.TAA24742@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Charlie Rose asked him a leading question about "Linux Torvalds > > > has stated that if he'd known about FreeBSD, he'd never have > > > created Linux; what's your reaction to that?". > > > > When did Linus state that? > > Presumably, before Charlie Rose quoted him. > > ar ar ar. The spirit of the question, Terry, not the letter. :-> -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Jan 10 13:22:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jade.chc-chimes.com (jade.chc-chimes.com [216.28.46.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F7B15AB0 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 13:22:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 255031C5B; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:35:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jade.chc-chimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C753819; Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:35:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 20:35:27 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mention on Charlie Rose program In-Reply-To: <200001080124.SAA21873@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Charlie Rose asked him a leading question about "Linux Torvalds > has stated that if he'd known about FreeBSD, he'd never have > created Linux; what's your reaction to that?". When did Linus state that? -- - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jan 11 8:59:12 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B827B14F25 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 08:59:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA37581 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:59:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <200001111659.LAA37581@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: review request To: advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:59:06 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Folks, I've taken the discussions we had (okay, that I started) on the high points of the BSDL, and churned them into an article. I would appreciate any commentary anyone might have before I start to shop it around. Unlike boring techie articles, a pure advocacy piece like this needs to have nice, clear-cut logic or the author will be flamed into a billion little crusty bits. (With clear-cut logic, the author will be flamed into only a million little crusty bits; that's enough to reassemble.) I'm not going to post it to the whole list; publishers, even most ezines, don't like that. But I'll happily send you a copy upon request. Be warned, it's about 1500 words. Thanks, ==ml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jan 11 14:30:41 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E96315341 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:30:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA24115 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:54:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:54:04 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: (forw) Vendor Listing Message-ID: <20000111145404.O9397@fw.wintelcom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Guys? :) ----- Forwarded message from jliao@dlink.ca ----- X-Lotus-FromDomain: D-LINKCA From: jliao@dlink.ca To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, drivers@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <85256863.007B50C4.00@camailsrv.dlinknet.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:26:55 -0500 Subject: Vendor Listing Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Would you advise me what to do if I'd like D-Link Corporation to be listed as a recognized network card vendor in the Freebsd system? James Liao D-Link CA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message ----- End forwarded message ----- -- -Alfred Perlstein - [bright@rush.net|alfred@freebsd.org] Wintelcom systems administrator and programmer - http://www.wintelcom.net/ [bright@wintelcom.net] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jan 11 15:47:57 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from aurora.rg.iupui.edu (aurora.rg.iupui.edu [134.68.31.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3655B1534D; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gunther@aurora.rg.iupui.edu) Received: from aurora.rg.iupui.edu (schadow_g.regenstrief.iupui.edu [134.68.31.121]) by aurora.rg.iupui.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA36728; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:47:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gunther@aurora.rg.iupui.edu) Message-ID: <387BC11A.57B3356D@aurora.rg.iupui.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:47:38 -0500 From: Gunther Schadow Organization: Regenstrief Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: misc@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Wall Street Journal Highlights -- dowjones.com Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------62DDB6E459579E0B8A086183" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------62DDB6E459579E0B8A086183 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You probably know this one already but it's still good, especially the following paragraph: The free programs are all variants of the venerable Unix system invented by AT&T Corp. And they aren't just running Yahoo. While Microsoft almost never talks about it, its own Hotmail free e-mail service runs not on its flagship Windows NT but on FreeBSD. http://dowjones.wsj.com/n/SB936961814325017645-d-main-c1.html -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include --------------62DDB6E459579E0B8A086183 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="SB936961814325017645-d-main-c1.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="SB936961814325017645-d-main-c1.html" Content-Base: "http://dowjones.wsj.com/n/SB9369618143 25017645-d-main-c1.html" Content-Location: "http://dowjones.wsj.com/n/SB9369618143 25017645-d-main-c1.html" Wall Street Journal Highlights -- dowjones.com
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WALL STREET JOURNAL HIGHLIGHTS

Beyond Linux, Free Systems Help Build The Web

By LEE GOMES
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

HERE's a little-known fact about the world's busiest Web site: It runs on a piece of free software. And it isn't the free operating system called Linux.

To serve nearly 80 million people each month, Yahoo! Inc. operates about 1,000 computers that run on FreeBSD, a program distributed without charge over the Internet. FreeBSD is the most popular in a trio of free operating systems -- all historically linked to the University of California at Berkeley -- that are quietly playing a major role in the evolution of the Internet.

Among operating systems, the internal engines that run computers, Linux has stolen the spotlight lately, as supporters hope it will eventually challenge the dominance of Microsoft Corp.'s Windows. The initial public offering of Red Hat Inc., the Linux software vendor, was one of the hottest deals on Wall Street this summer.

To find out more about subscribing to The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition, go to wsj.com.

But the role of FreeBSD and its cousins shows how free programs keep changing the software world and creating headaches for big established players. Sun Microsystems Inc., a leader in managing big Web sites, is carefully watching the growth of Linux and other free programs. And Microsoft faces a particularly significant challenge, since the Redmond, Wash., company wants its forthcoming Windows 2000 to dominate the "dot-com" world where the freebies are strong.

"With Linux capturing the public imagination, the BSDs have gotten lost in the noise," said International Data Corp. analyst Dan Kusnetzky. "But they are very sophisticated technologies that do a lot of work in the world, even if people don't know about them."

The BSD programs and Linux actually share a common lineage, a collective development process and a rambunctious cast of characters.

The free programs are all variants of the venerable Unix system invented by AT&T Corp. And they aren't just running Yahoo. While Microsoft almost never talks about it, its own Hotmail free e-mail service runs not on its flagship Windows NT but on FreeBSD.

In fact, one recent survey showed that BSD accounted for nearly 15% of all server machines connected to the Internet. Linux leads the pack with 31%,and is the only major operating system making any gains. Windows had 24%.

The Linux saga is already the stuff of modern legend. In 1991, Linus Torvalds, a 21-year-old student in Helsinki, began writing an operating system essentially from scratch so he could have something to use on his home computer. The programs FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, by contrast, are the descendants of code written in the late 1970s and early 1980s at UC Berkeley.

Factional battles and online fusillades between and among the various BSDs and Linux are common. OpenBSD was started in 1995 by Theo de Raadt, a mountain biking 31-year-old Canadian after being kicked out of the NetBSD movement.

BSD buffs like to think of themselves as a slightly more grown-up version of the "open source" movement, which distributes underlying programming instructions so users can study and modify software. While Mr. Torvalds has full control of Linux, for example, FreeBSD is overseen by a 15-person group called the "Core." What's more, the various BSDs say that their software, by virtue of its head start on Linux, is more mature and stable.

"We didn't write most of this code, so we don't have a lot of ego involved in getting people to use it," says Jordan K. Hubbard, 36 years old, an evangelist for FreeBSD who many people credit for its popularity.

David Filo is one fan. The co-founder of Yahoo says he tried several operating systems before settling on FreeBSD. Now, Yahoo has become a major sponsor. At FreeBSD's first users' convention, to be held next month in Berkeley, Yahoo is paying to fly in some key developers. Mr. Filo said he would still use FreeBSD if he could do it over again, since his team now has so much experience with the software. But for someone starting out, he says, he might recommend Linux. "Right now, there seems to be more energy and resources behind it," he says.

Such sentiments make some people wonder what the future is for the BSDs in a world where Linux is getting most of the "mindshare."

Mr. Hubbard says the ranks of FreeBSD users continue to swell. One reason is that all BSDs are distributed under a license that lets users do almost anything with them -- including put the software into traditional commercial products. The Linux license, by contrast, requires users to make any use of the software -- such as a piece of specialized computer networking gear -- freely available to everyone else. That restriction keeps many companies from using Linux in key products.

It might well make sense for the BSDs to put aside their differences and unite under a common set of specs. But peace may be too much to expect in the free software world. Two of the BSDs tried to merge a few years ago, recalls Charles M. Hannum, a programmer with the NetBSD project. But at a meeting between the two camps, "while everyone agreed it was a good idea," he says, "no one wanted to give anything up, and it just fell apart."
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--------------62DDB6E459579E0B8A086183 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="gunther.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Gunther Schadow Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gunther.vcf" begin:vcard n:Schadow;Gunther tel;fax:+1 317 630 6962 tel;home:+1 317 816 0516 tel;work:+1 317 630 7960 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu org:Regenstrief Institute adr:;;1050 Wishard Blvd;Indianapolis;Indiana;46202;USA version:2.1 email;internet:schadow_g@regenstrief.rg.iupui.edu title:M.D. fn:Gunther Schadow end:vcard --------------62DDB6E459579E0B8A086183-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Jan 11 17:49:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 673AB15121 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:49:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id RAA19371; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:48:46 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA22503; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:48:46 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn1.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.237]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id RAA14918; Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:47:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387BDE52.2FCB32E3@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:52:18 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lucas Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: review request References: <200001111659.LAA37581@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Lucas wrote: > > Folks, > > I've taken the discussions we had (okay, that I started) on the high > points of the BSDL, and churned them into an article. > > I would appreciate any commentary anyone might have before I start to > shop it around. Unlike boring techie articles, a pure advocacy piece > like this needs to have nice, clear-cut logic or the author will be > flamed into a billion little crusty bits. (With clear-cut logic, the > author will be flamed into only a million little crusty bits; that's > enough to reassemble.) > > I'm not going to post it to the whole list; publishers, even most > ezines, don't like that. But I'll happily send you a copy upon > request. > > Be warned, it's about 1500 words. I'd like to see it. I've even been known to read 1500 words in a single sitting. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 12 5:54:56 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from merlin.onsea.com (p4Cs13a01.client.global.net.uk [195.147.141.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E2014EFB for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 05:54:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dozprompt@onsea.com) Received: from localhost (dozprompt@localhost) by merlin.onsea.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA03014; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 02:16:12 GMT (envelope-from dozprompt@onsea.com) X-Authentication-Warning: merlin.onsea.com: dozprompt owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 02:16:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Cliff Rowley To: Michael Lucas Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: review request In-Reply-To: <387BDE52.2FCB32E3@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'd love to see it, send it away :) - while (!asleep) { code(); } - http://www.onsea.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 12 7:28:55 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5BB1551D; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:28:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id HAA25493; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:28:16 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id HAA22512; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:28:12 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.39]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id HAA16959; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:27:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387C9E64.9E0AB692@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:31:48 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gunther Schadow Cc: misc@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal Highlights -- dowjones.com References: <387BC11A.57B3356D@aurora.rg.iupui.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gunther Schadow wrote: > > You probably know this one already but it's still good, especially > the following paragraph: > > The free programs are all variants of the venerable Unix system invented by > AT&T Corp. And they aren't just running Yahoo. While Microsoft almost > never talks about it, its own Hotmail free e-mail service runs not on its > flagship Windows NT but on FreeBSD. > > http://dowjones.wsj.com/n/SB936961814325017645-d-main-c1.html Yeah, this was the WSJ's birthday present to me this year. I have the hardcopy in my office. It was posted on daily.daemonnews.org and Slashdot back when it was first published. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 12 8: 3:24 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D57B14E39 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:03:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18249; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:03:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:03:09 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: matt , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Possible idea to raise funds. In-Reply-To: <2501.947197592@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > FreeBSD.org accounts are already sort of the "executive perk" of those > who care enough about FreeBSD to volunteer their labor, either as > docs, ports or src committers. Not to say that this alone has been > their incentive, but hey, they're volunteers and there are so few > tangible things one gets as a volunteer that each and every one counts > for something. :) > > - Jordan > > what about those who have given themselves self(sense)lessly in advocacy efforts? (hint hint) , when I was at the bazaar, it would have been nice to give a freebsd.org address as a contact while I was manning the booth. of course the fact that I have bsdunix.net made it not so bad. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 12 8:46:14 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3199114E28 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 08:46:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA42412; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:45:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <200001121645.LAA42412@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: Re: Possible idea to raise funds. In-Reply-To: from Pat Lynch at "Jan 12, 2000 11: 3: 9 am" To: lynch@bsd.unix.sh (Pat Lynch) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:45:58 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, matt@BabCom.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > FreeBSD.org accounts are already sort of the "executive perk" of those > > who care enough about FreeBSD to volunteer their labor, either as > > docs, ports or src committers. Not to say that this alone has been > > their incentive, but hey, they're volunteers and there are so few > > tangible things one gets as a volunteer that each and every one counts > > for something. :) > > what about those who have given themselves self(sense)lessly in advocacy > efforts? > (hint hint) , when I was at the bazaar, it would have been nice to give a > freebsd.org address as a contact while I was manning the booth. On the other hand, it's nice to have people who aren't @freebsd.org promote it. We aren't just some fringe group all clustered around one domain. Perks for advocacy are pretty much non-existent. Having said that, if you do enough, well enough, publicly enough, people in the community will recognize you and your efforts. Personally, I don't think that advocacy is enough to warrant an @freebsd.org address. FreeBSD has taken me from a librarian sitting bored in a little box in a library basement making $18K, to a network engineer sitting bored in a little box in a skyscraper basement making $75K. I'm willing to give a little time in exchange for my house, nifty truck, and bad-ass saltwater aquarium with an urchin that resembles the Sputnik. Yes, I'd love an @freebsd.org address. Perhaps I'll get it one day. But I'm not a committer, I don't contribute actual zeroes and ones that make it onto CD-Roms. I could sit down, polish up my HTML skills, and contribute to the doc project, and get it, I'm sure. Anyone here could, if they wanted to. Personally, I make my own perks for advocacy; I write articles, and submit them to paying markets first. What's left I (plan to) rewrite and send to daemonnews. So far, I've been paid every time. Sorry, Chris. :) Through advocacy, we make friends we wouldn't have otherwise. We have a *community*. Thanks to freebsd, some cool hacker-type dudes across the world have some clue who I am, and consider me as someone with half a clue. > of course the fact that I have bsdunix.net made it not so bad. So whaddaya gripin' for? ;) (Although blackhelicopters.org isn't a bad name, either.) ==ml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 12 11:32:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC9C14EEA for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:32:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@bsd.unix.sh) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19628; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:31:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:31:58 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Michael Lucas Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, matt@BabCom.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Possible idea to raise funds. In-Reply-To: <200001121645.LAA42412@blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Michael Lucas wrote: > > On the other hand, it's nice to have people who aren't @freebsd.org > promote it. We aren't just some fringe group all clustered around one > domain. I agree, and I'm not really complaining, except for the fact that pretty much me and two other people manned the booth for 3 days straight at the bazaar, essentially representing FreeBSD. It was in some pseudo-official capacity that I did this, as one of the people in NYC that happens to be fairly involved in the effort. But when giving contact information in that capacity, while *I* may own bsdunix.net and it looked fairly official , others did not. When you are speaking to businesspeople, things like this *do* matter. -Pat __ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net lynch@unix.sh lynch@blowfi.sh Systems Administrator Rush Networking > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 12 11:42:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D42514D33 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:42:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA43466; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:42:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mwlucas) From: Michael Lucas Message-Id: <200001121942.OAA43466@blackhelicopters.org> Subject: official-looking advocacy (was re: Possible idea to raise funds.) In-Reply-To: from Pat Lynch at "Jan 12, 2000 2:31:58 pm" To: lynch@bsd.unix.sh (Pat Lynch) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:42:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I agree, and I'm not really complaining, except for the fact that pretty > much me and two other people manned the booth for 3 days straight at the > bazaar, essentially representing FreeBSD. It was in some pseudo-official > capacity > that I did this, as one of the people in NYC that happens to be fairly > involved in the effort. But when giving contact information in that > capacity, while *I* may own bsdunix.net and it looked fairly official , > others did not. > > When you are speaking to businesspeople, things like this *do* matter. (subject changed and cc's trimmed) Hmm... yes, this is a problem. Businesspeople definitely care about these things. Is there a NYC BUG? Perhaps you might ask for some sort of mail forwarder from freebsd.org for, say, nycbug@freebsd.org. Minimizes system load and administrator load at freebsd.org, and it's not focused on any one person. After all, the committers need *some* sort of perks. ;) ==ml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Jan 12 22:50:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kuzhmaker.tec2000.org.il (f194.ifirewall.israsrv.net.il [192.117.193.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE1A152A9 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2000 22:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aeg@iname.com) Received: from lair ([192.168.1.2]) by kuzhmaker.tec2000.org.il (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA32144 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:53:10 +0200 (IST) (envelope-from aeg@iname.com) From: "Alexandr Gribenko" To: Subject: FreBSD Rulez Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:03:22 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not to long ago two famous russian news web servers lenta.ru and vesti.ru were hacked up and their contents changed by some hacker To all russian community here is the interview with him in russian. http://humor.21.ru/atos/090100.html The fact is that he said that he, himself would use freebsd as an operating system NOT linux, which was used and he hacked. ;o) I by myself paranoic use openbsd for servers but my heart,workstation and laptop (soon) is FreeBSD ;o) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Jan 13 9:43:49 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ind.alcatel.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413E8155B1 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:43:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com (mailhub [198.206.181.70]) by ind.alcatel.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (ind.alcatel.com 3.0 [OUT])) with SMTP id JAA18361; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:41:25 -0800 (PST) X-Origination-Site: Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id JAA04927; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:41:25 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn1.utah.xylan.com [198.206.184.237]) by omni.xylan.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1 (Xylan engr [SPOOL])) with ESMTP id JAA23400; Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:40:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <387E0F1F.76F77455@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 10:45:03 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Lucas Cc: Pat Lynch , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: official-looking advocacy (was re: Possible idea to raise funds.) References: <200001121942.OAA43466@blackhelicopters.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Lucas wrote: > > > I agree, and I'm not really complaining, except for the fact that pretty > > much me and two other people manned the booth for 3 days straight at the > > bazaar, essentially representing FreeBSD. It was in some pseudo-official > > capacity > > that I did this, as one of the people in NYC that happens to be fairly > > involved in the effort. But when giving contact information in that > > capacity, while *I* may own bsdunix.net and it looked fairly official , > > others did not. > > > > When you are speaking to businesspeople, things like this *do* matter. > > (subject changed and cc's trimmed) > > Hmm... yes, this is a problem. Businesspeople definitely care about > these things. > > Is there a NYC BUG? Perhaps you might ask for some sort of mail > forwarder from freebsd.org for, say, nycbug@freebsd.org. Minimizes > system load and administrator load at freebsd.org, and it's not > focused on any one person. > > After all, the committers need *some* sort of perks. ;) I don't think anyone is resistant to giving out freebsd.org mail addresses or login accounts for people who mainly want to do advocacy. The only question is one of commitment. Sending email from an account @freebsd.org carries connotations of an official announcement or agreement to do some- thing, which may or may not be agreed to by core. Committers and at least one core member have been taken to task for expressing personal opinions from freebsd.org email accounts. If you want to become a dedicated advocate, email core@freebsd.org and ask for an email account @freebsd.org. Don't expect the answer to be yes unless you have a proven track record and have been around a while, that's just the way things work around here. In a commercial setting, the organization controls the individual by holding their job over them. Here, you have to prove you're not an idiot before you get to speak for the organization. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 14 4:34:22 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8724014F5B for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 04:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john_wilson100@excite.com) Received: from prance.excite.com ([199.172.153.84]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20000114123218.STH315.fortune.excite.com@prance.excite.com>; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 04:32:18 -0800 Message-ID: <9059022.947853138650.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 04:32:18 -0800 (PST) From: John Wilson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreBSD Rulez Cc: aeg@iname.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.0.169.58 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alexandr Gribenko wrote: > > Not to long ago two famous russian news web servers lenta.ru and vesti.ru > were hacked up and their contents changed by some hacker > To all russian community here is the interview with him in russian. > http://humor.21.ru/atos/090100.html The fact is that he said that he, > himself would use freebsd as an operating system NOT linux, which was used > and he hacked. ;o) > I by myself paranoic use openbsd for servers but my heart,workstation and > laptop (soon) is FreeBSD ;o) Well having read the interview, I came to the conclusion that it's nothing but FUD, and the guy is not to be taken seriously. I mean, break into any system? Secure a server to make it impenetrable by attackers? Pleeease. See for yourselves. John [who has translated selected parts into English from the original Russian] ... Atos: May I ask you a few technical questions? What operating systems were they running? [the servers he'd hacked into -J.W.] Webster: Linux, kernel 2.0.38 with no significant security holes, which is absolutely impossible to penetrate from outside without a user account on the system. [But he did nonetheless - does it mean he had an account? -J.W.] ... Atos: Can you break into any server, or do you use some known security holes or exploits? Webster: I can break into any system. ... Atos: In your professional opinion, which operating systems are most resistant to such attacks and should be deployed "on the battlefield"? Webster: FreeBSD, OpenBSD, but by no means Linux. ... Atos: What can you say about Sun Solaris or NT? Webster: There's currently an enormous number of security holes in SunOS; as for NT it's just a child's toy. Atos: Can you be sure than no-one will ever be able to hack into a server secured by you? Webster: I am absolutely certain. Atos: This interview is likely to be published on the Internet. Would you like to add anything, or give some advice to Internet Service Providers? Webster: They should follow the example of www.elvis.ru and never install Linux on a large number of servers, which is but a recipe for disaster. I personally recommend FreeBSD. _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 14 6: 8:39 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B42514FA5 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@fw.wintelcom.net) Received: (from bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA16366; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:30:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:30:06 -0800 From: Alfred Perlstein To: John Wilson Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, aeg@iname.com Subject: Re: FreBSD Rulez Message-ID: <20000114063005.C12995@fw.wintelcom.net> References: <9059022.947853138650.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <9059022.947853138650.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com>; from john_wilson100@excite.com on Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 04:32:18AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * John Wilson [000114 04:57] wrote: > Alexandr Gribenko wrote: > > > > Not to long ago two famous russian news web servers lenta.ru and vesti.ru > > were hacked up and their contents changed by some hacker > > To all russian community here is the interview with him in russian. > > http://humor.21.ru/atos/090100.html The fact is that he said that he, > > himself would use freebsd as an operating system NOT linux, which was used > > and he hacked. ;o) > > I by myself paranoic use openbsd for servers but my heart,workstation and > > laptop (soon) is FreeBSD ;o) > > > Well having read the interview, I came to the conclusion that it's nothing > but FUD, and the guy is not to be taken seriously. I mean, break into any > system? Secure a server to make it impenetrable by attackers? Pleeease. > See for yourselves. > > John > > [who has translated selected parts into English from the original Russian] > > ... hmm, a search for exploits on rootshell shows 116 exploits for 'linux' and 14 for FreeBSD. *shrug* -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 14 11:33:23 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from server.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (bitmcnit.bryansk.ru [195.239.213.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A5515013 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:33:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from alex@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by server.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (8.9.3/8.9.3) with UUCP id WAA00902 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:25:59 +0300 Received: (from alex@localhost) by kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA03236 for freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:47:06 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from alex) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:47:06 +0300 From: Alex Kapranoff To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreBSD Rulez Message-ID: <20000114214706.A2893@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <9059022.947853138650.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <9059022.947853138650.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com>; from john_wilson100@excite.com on Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 04:32:18AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 04:32:18AM -0800, John Wilson wrote: > Well having read the interview, I came to the conclusion that it's nothing > but FUD, and the guy is not to be taken seriously. I mean, break into any > system? Secure a server to make it impenetrable by attackers? Pleeease. > See for yourselves. > > John > > [who has translated selected parts into English from the original Russian] > > ... > > Atos: May I ask you a few technical questions? What operating systems were > they running? [the servers he'd hacked into -J.W.] > > Webster: Linux, kernel 2.0.38 with no significant security holes, which is > absolutely impossible to penetrate from outside without a user account on > the system. [But he did nonetheless - does it mean he had an account? > -J.W.] Yes, this was a two-stage break-in. First, some less secure server, then use those accounts on the main target. (people do use identical passwords) > Atos: Can you break into any server, or do you use some known security > holes or exploits? > > Webster: I can break into any system. Remember, he was just seeking for jobs. He clearly stated it on the spoofed pages. And he tried to make impression in all his interviews (there're lots of). Anyway no excuse for cracker. > Atos: Can you be sure than no-one will ever be able to hack into a server > secured by you? > > Webster: I am absolutely certain. Same thing. This country is still staggering and it's sometimes really hard to find job for a young professional. > Atos: This interview is likely to be published on the Internet. Would you > like to add anything, or give some advice to Internet Service Providers? > > Webster: They should follow the example of www.elvis.ru and never install > Linux on a large number of servers, which is but a recipe for disaster. I > personally recommend FreeBSD. FreeBSD is strong in Russia. It doesn't need any advocacy here. We grok values ;-)) -- Alex Kapranoff, 2:50/383.20@fidonet, Voice: +7(0832)791845. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 14 16:18:29 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D513B14F32 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:18:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john_wilson100@excite.com) Received: from prance.excite.com ([199.172.153.84]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20000115001540.KXGF311.gigi.excite.com@prance.excite.com>; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:15:40 -0800 Message-ID: <18331942.947895340614.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:15:40 -0800 (PST) From: John Wilson To: Alfred Perlstein Subject: Re: FreBSD Rulez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, aeg@iname.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.0.168.219 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 06:30:06 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > * John Wilson [000114 04:57] wrote: > > Alexandr Gribenko wrote: > > > > > > Not to long ago two famous russian news web servers lenta.ru and vesti.ru > > > were hacked up and their contents changed by some hacker > > > To all russian community here is the interview with him in russian. > > > http://humor.21.ru/atos/090100.html The fact is that he said that he, > > > himself would use freebsd as an operating system NOT linux, which was used > > > and he hacked. ;o) > > > I by myself paranoic use openbsd for servers but my heart,workstation and > > > laptop (soon) is FreeBSD ;o) > > > > > > Well having read the interview, I came to the conclusion that it's nothing > > but FUD, and the guy is not to be taken seriously. I mean, break into any > > system? Secure a server to make it impenetrable by attackers? Pleeease. > > See for yourselves. > > > > John > > > > [who has translated selected parts into English from the original Russian] > > > > ... > > hmm, a search for exploits on rootshell shows 116 exploits for 'linux' > and 14 for FreeBSD. > > *shrug* Well, Alfred, FreeBSD (out-of-the-box) is a lot more secure than Linux (out-of-the-box) - there's no doubt about it! Although... wait a minute, this doesn't make any sense... what the hell is Linux out-of-the-box? RedHat? Debian? SuSE? Slackware? Corel? Are we talking about the security of the Linux kernel or the userland that comes with it? Things can quickly get out of sync when people upgrade their kernels but not the rest of the system. FreeBSD, being a complete system, doesn't suffer from this problem (unless you use the ports collection, in which case it is your responsibility to keep track of security updates). However, gaining root on a machine running Linux 2.0.38 isn't that much of an achievement, especially considering the number of remote exploits on rootshell for that particular kernel. Imagine the following scenario - a hacker breaks into a server running a prehistoric version of FreeBSD and then goes around telling everyone that FreeBSD sucks and (insert your favorite system here) rules. Yes, absolutely, FreeBSD and OpenBSD (and NetBSD!) are more secure. And yes, I think they are better than Linux with its silly license and 2Gb filesystem. I also dislike Linux man pages, which always give you a little lecture about how the GNU project considers man pages obsolete and how people should use GNU info instead (which IMO is redundant and should be scrapped.) But if he claims he can compromise *any* system, then how comes he only chose to break into Linux servers? Some advocate! John _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 14 16:44:19 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8DD14C37 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:44:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john_wilson100@excite.com) Received: from prance.excite.com ([199.172.153.84]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20000115004357.JVCL315.fortune.excite.com@prance.excite.com>; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:43:57 -0800 Message-ID: <15637142.947897037719.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:43:57 -0800 (PST) From: John Wilson To: Alex Kapranoff Subject: Re: FreBSD Rulez Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 62.0.168.219 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex Kapranoff wrote: > > > > Atos: May I ask you a few technical questions? What operating systems were > > they running? [the servers he'd hacked into -J.W.] > > > > Webster: Linux, kernel 2.0.38 with no significant security holes, which is > > absolutely impossible to penetrate from outside without a user account on > > the system. [But he did nonetheless - does it mean he had an account? > > -J.W.] > > Yes, this was a two-stage break-in. First, some less secure server, then > use those accounts on the main target. (people do use identical passwords) > > > Atos: Can you break into any server, or do you use some known security > > holes or exploits? > > > > Webster: I can break into any system. > > Remember, he was just seeking for jobs. He clearly stated it on the spoofed > pages. And he tried to make impression in all his interviews (there're lots of). > Anyway no excuse for cracker. > > > Atos: Can you be sure than no-one will ever be able to hack into a server > > secured by you? > > > > Webster: I am absolutely certain. > > Same thing. This country is still staggering and it's sometimes really hard > to find job for a young professional. I really cannot imagine how this could possibly help someone get a job. Isn't attempting to gain unauthorised access to a computer a criminal offence in Russia? Yes, sometimes customer sites can hire groups of hackers to perform "penetration testing" on their systems, but even then there are some problems. If a company wants to hire someone to hack their own site, they must ensure that the scope of the hacking attempts are clearly defined beforehand, and the people they hire must ensure that they are insured against any accidental damage that they might cause to the system. I don't see it happening here. How can a person break into a computer system, tell everyone he did it and expect to get away with it? I realize that some laws are not enforced, but in this case it's like robbing a bank, killing a bunch of security guards, and then saying, "Hey! Your security's no good - you gotta hire me guys!" > > Atos: This interview is likely to be published on the Internet. Would you > > like to add anything, or give some advice to Internet Service Providers? > > > > Webster: They should follow the example of www.elvis.ru and never install > > Linux on a large number of servers, which is but a recipe for disaster. I > > personally recommend FreeBSD. > > FreeBSD is strong in Russia. It doesn't need any advocacy here. Well it looks like it does - or people wouldn't be running Linux! :) John _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Jan 14 20:19:38 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E54841500D for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:19:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ke6jqh@arrl.net) Received: from arrl.net ([12.67.64.52]) by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <20000115041918.GVYM5516@arrl.net> for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 04:19:18 +0000 Message-ID: <387FF566.27F271E4@arrl.net> Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:19:50 -0600 From: Rob Perry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Birmingham AL User group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm trying to find out if there is currently a FreeBSD user group in Birmingham, Alabama. I know the local CompUSA carries one or two copies of the PowerPak every once in a while and they seem to sell out fairly quickly. (By every once in a while I mean that they like to wait several months before re-stocking it.) Surely the friend that got me hooked on it and I are not the only users in the area. If nobody knows of a group here, I would appreciate some hints about starting one. Any mailing list search I've tried always brings up hits for England. That seems to me to be a bit of a rough drive. :-) Thanks for any info. Rob Perry -- "Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 15 7:50:27 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from spider.cris.net (spider.cris.net [212.110.128.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540B614FA7; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 07:50:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phantom@bird.cris.net) Received: from bird.cris.net (phantom@bird.cris.net [212.110.128.67]) by spider.cris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09545; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:48:28 +0200 (EET) Received: (from phantom@localhost) by bird.cris.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07099; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:49:41 +0200 (EET) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 17:49:41 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <200001151549.RAA07099@bird.cris.net> From: Alexey Zelkin To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org, doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: (fwd) looking for writers Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -- forwarded message -- From: Jack Wallen Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.misc Subject: looking for writers References: <386A667E.5EF6585A@techrepublic.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 14:09:41 -0500 (EST) Hello everyone, I am editor in chief of linux content for TechRepublic and we are expanding to add an alternate OS - which I plan on including the BSD OS. Because of this expansion, I am looking for writers to cover this topic. I'm looking for very knowlegable IT and administration types who are looking to make some spare income writing about a topic near and dear to them - BSD. If anyone is interested contact me at jwallen@techrepublic.com and we'll talk. I'm looking for people to submit sample writings and will need to get content coming in asap. We pay our beginning writers .25 cents per word and are looking for articles that are approx 2500 words per. Writers should be able to generate 2-4 articles per month and content should be very technical in nature. Thank you all for your concideration. -- end of forwarded message -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 15 13:18:25 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from plab.ku.dk (plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B0D15100 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:18:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from voland@plab.ku.dk) Received: from eagle.plab.ku.dk (voland@eagle.plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.63]) by plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA78923; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:18:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from voland@plab.ku.dk) Received: (from voland@localhost) by eagle.plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA94781; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:18:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from voland) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Comment-To: Alex Kapranoff To: Alex Kapranoff Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreBSD Rulez References: <9059022.947853138650.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> <20000114214706.A2893@kapran.bitmcnit.bryansk.su> From: Vadim Belman In-Reply-To: Alex Kapranoff's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:47:06 +0300" Date: 15 Jan 2000 22:18:17 +0100 Message-ID: <85wvpb3ug6.fsf@eagle.plab.ku.dk> Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Alex! On 14 Jan 00 at 19:47, "Alex" (Alex Kapranoff) wrote: Alex> FreeBSD is strong in Russia. It doesn't need any advocacy here. Alex> We grok values ;-)) You bet... Just before yesterday I had a stupid discussion on IRC channel with few Linux-crazy-fans and must admin - with no success. 8( Stupidly enough, it wasn't discussion about technical advantages/disadvantages of two systems (such kind of conversation is common and usually very interesting), but I tried to convince them that FreeBSD is not a dying system! Actually, as I found out later the most active opponent was exactly 20 years old (it was his birthday a day before 8). Hence he can be treated as a young maximalist. 8) But he is of that kind of people who will be making decisions in real business soon. Even more, this one is a holder of rather big Linux-dedicated news site and thus can have serious influence on others... What I'm saying here: whatever you see around you, advocacy is always necessary. As it is told in Carrol's 'Through the looking glass': 'Now, HERE, you see, it takes all the running YOU can do, to keep in the same place.' 8) So, 'run, Forrest, run!' or lose... -- /Voland Vadim Belman E-mail: voland@plab.ku.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Jan 15 13:39:10 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from plab.ku.dk (plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F81714E83 for ; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 13:39:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from voland@plab.ku.dk) Received: from eagle.plab.ku.dk (voland@eagle.plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.63]) by plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA78991; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:38:50 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from voland@plab.ku.dk) Received: (from voland@localhost) by eagle.plab.ku.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA14128; Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:38:43 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from voland) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Comment-To: John Wilson To: John Wilson Cc: Alex Kapranoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreBSD Rulez References: <15637142.947897037719.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> From: Vadim Belman In-Reply-To: John Wilson's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:43:57 -0800 (PST)" Date: 15 Jan 2000 22:38:42 +0100 Message-ID: <85snzz3ti5.fsf@eagle.plab.ku.dk> Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi John! On 15 Jan 00 at 01:43, "John" (John Wilson) wrote: John> I really cannot imagine how this could possibly help someone get a John> job. Isn't attempting to gain unauthorised access to a computer a John> criminal offence in Russia? Yes, sometimes customer sites can hire John> groups of hackers to perform "penetration testing" on their systems, He got what he wanted, AFAIK. He's calling himself 'security analist' and was offended by fact that most porposals was about breaking into servers. It seems like some companies proposed a normal (i.e. defence-related) job to this guy. -- /Voland Vadim Belman E-mail: voland@plab.ku.dk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message