From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Nov 25 15: 5:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-64-165-226-105.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [64.165.226.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E11137B416; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E4B9F66C79; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:05:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:05:31 -0800 From: Kris Kennaway To: Robert Watson Cc: Kris Kennaway , Ian Dowse , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/tail forward.c Message-ID: <20011125150531.A93698@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20011125144540.A93369@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.org on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:55:42PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:55:42PM -0500, Robert Watson wrote: >=20 > > On Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 10:03:28AM -0800, Ian Dowse wrote: > > > iedowse 2001/11/25 10:03:28 PST > > >=20 > > > Modified files: > > > usr.bin/tail forward.c=20 > > > Log: > > > Since kqueue support was added to tail, the "-F" option (check for > > > renames/rotations) only detected cases where the file itself was > > > moved or deleted. If part of the path to the file (or a symlink > > > in the path) was changed instead, tail would not notice. > > > =20 > > > Fix this by ensuring that we stat the path at least once every > > > second in the -F case to check for changes. We still use kqueue > > > when possible to inform us quickly when the file has changed. > >=20 > > Hmm, this strikes me as a bit nasty...ideally you shouldn't have to poll > > for any status changes in a kqueue world. Is there an easy way kq could > > be improved to handle this?=20 >=20 > Note that, regardless of kq supporting non-polling, most applications need > to know how to poll anyway so as to support non-local file systems that > don't send around event information (nfs, etc). tail has such logic for > nonkqe-aware file systems, and others will need it also. It would be nice if this could be abstracted somehow so the application doesn't have to do both. Most application writers are going to forget this. Kris --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8AXjBWry0BWjoQKURAtD7AJ0fYBlnravAPCvuGMBB3F5gsMEaxQCgn3+f lWQRtyI64PTVr77p8vUcQN8= =DECu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sun Nov 25 18:33:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 821) id 0E8FF37B405; Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:33:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:33:45 -0800 From: "John W. De Boskey" To: Arch List Subject: Comments on kern/32106 (MAXSHELLCMDLEN increase) Message-ID: <20011125183344.A1257@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/32106 This pr seems particulary straight forward. However, I believe the real problem lies in libc/gen/exec.c and it's handling of the ENOEXEC errno being returned from exec_shell_imgact(). ENOEXEC as a return code appears to be overloaded. A quick review of the code leads me to believe that exec_shell_imgact() could/should return E2BIG which is handled correctly in execvp() by dropping through to the done label and returning -1 (ie: the interpreter path is too big). As to the pr submitters original request, I do not see any earth shattering reasons why MAXSHELLCMDLEN can't be increased (if only to 128 and not 512). Comments? -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 7: 6:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9525037B405 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:06:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.seasidesoftware.co.za) by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 168NMP-00091C-00; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:07:53 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Matthew Dillon Cc: Kirk McKusick , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using a larger block size on large filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:45:22 PST." <200111241845.fAOIjM377587@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:07:53 +0200 Message-ID: <34669.1006787273@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:45:22 PST, Matthew Dillon wrote: | The only thing I worry about is reduced performance when doing | random database accesses, which makes me kinda want to give the | system the capability to do smaller I/O's :-) Yes. My feeling is that there is sufficient breadth of access pattern in the spectrum of useful applications as to make a "one size fits all" default impossible to attain. I'm off the opinion that the set of useful applications installed on FreeBSD systems is weighted more toward MTA-like access on small files. This may just be because we don't seem to have an Oracle-class RDBMS available for FreeBSD. I'm guessing that the graph looks something like this: Installations ^ | ************ | ****** **** | ***** *** |**** ** | * | * +------------------------------------------| Access Pattern MTA-like access <-|-> RDBMS-like access We can either continue along the middle ground that does not offer optimal performance to anyone, or we can try to deliver optimal performance to the applications that weigh in heavier on the spectrum and require operators of other applications to be sensible about filesystem tuning. The status quo forces operators of high-performance applications at BOTH ends of the spectrum to engage in fs tuning. So I think it's worthwhile to to decide on the end of the spectrum that delivers optimal performance to the largest number of installations (NOT the largest number of available applications). Do you agree with me that we'd benefit the largest number of installations by targetting applications with MTA-like access on small files? Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 8:12: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from hal-5.inet.it (hal-5.inet.it [213.92.5.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A01837B405 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by hal-5.inet.it (8.11.1/8.11.1) id fAQGBt8212678 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:11:55 +0100 Received: from acampi.inet.it(213.92.1.165) by hal-5.inet.it via I-SMTP id s-213.92.1.165-mcykCo; Mon Nov 26 17:11:54 2001 Received: from webcom.it (brian.inet.it [213.92.1.190]) by acampi.inet.it (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C2BF15551 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:11:49 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 15829 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Nov 2001 15:59:15 -0000 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:59:15 +0100 From: Andrea Campi To: Robert Watson Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Importing AFS / Arla in kernel Message-ID: <20011126155915.GB3625@webcom.it> References: <20011122104225.GC1600@webcom.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i X-Echelon: BND CIA NSA Mossad KGB MI6 IRA detonator nuclear assault strike Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Picking a semi-random message to reply, exp. since you volunteered to commit] OK, so you can find the patch at this URL: http://www.webcom.it/freebsd/arla.diff A few things to note: - first, this patch imports in contrib a selection of the needed files as will be in the arla repo as soon as assar gets to commit them. This means we still need a few days, but also that we will need no patch (don't want to take files off the vendor branch). I will try to ensure things stay this way as much as possible, i.e. commit first to arla and then import over. This also means that something might change a little bit as I get more feedback from Arla people. - I propose to name the module arlaxfs even if the original name is xfs, to avoid possible future conflicts with SGI XFS, should we ever want to have that. However, if you guys feel this is not important, we could call this xfs and stay more compatible with original Arla. - Previously Arla allocated a dynamic syscall number; I want to use 339 as that's been reserved for AFS. I had to do this, don't know if it's correct: Index: sys/kern/syscalls.master =================================================================== RCS file: /u/ncvs/src/sys/kern/syscalls.master,v retrieving revision 1.100 diff -u -r1.100 syscalls.master --- sys/kern/syscalls.master 2 Nov 2001 17:58:26 -0000 1.100 +++ sys/kern/syscalls.master 23 Nov 2001 23:26:24 -0000 @@ -483,7 +483,7 @@ struct sf_hdtr *hdtr, off_t *sbytes, int flags); } 337 STD BSD { int kldsym(int fileid, int cmd, void *data); } 338 MSTD BSD { int jail(struct jail *jail); } -339 UNIMPL BSD pioctl +339 NODEF NOHIDE lkmressys lkmressys nosys_args int 340 MSTD POSIX { int sigprocmask(int how, const sigset_t *set, \ sigset_t *oset); } 341 MSTD POSIX { int sigsuspend(const sigset_t *sigmask); } Please note that I am currently at the point where I am able to compile in the kernel or as module, and load the module with no error. However I am sure actually using this module would give errors, and almost certainly panic your machine (I still need to touch WITNESS code, for starters); but I need to have something committed or I risk losing so much time redoing things when something changes. I am confident that it won't be long until I have it 100% working. One area I need help with is, if I compile arla in the kernel (vs. as a module) it doesn't register. I'm sure I've forgotten something, so I obviously need some tutoring in this. So, if anybody care to review and comment, I'd be grateful. Bye, Andrea > > There's lots of existing precedent for this, including in the form of > Coda, which uses a very similar model. Boasting out-of-the-box support > for AFS also has its advantages :-). I'd be happy to do the commit-work > fo this if Assar is otherwise occupied. > -- It's not a bug, it's tradition! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 9:10:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from bazooka.trit.org (bazooka.trit.org [63.198.170.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17CF37B419 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id F39FD3EDE; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:10:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bazooka (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27EC3C148 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:10:18 +0000 (UTC) To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Anybody working on devd? Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:10:13 +0000 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is anybody working, or planning on starting in the near future, on devd or similar? I'm thinking of giving it a shot, but I'd rather not duplicate effort and/or step on anybody's toes. Thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 9:58: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo.feral.com [192.67.166.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217A537B417 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.feral.com (mjacob@mailhost.feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by beppo.feral.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fAQHvxW61331; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:57:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:57:58 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob X-Sender: mjacob@beppo Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Dima Dorfman Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm curious what you think a devd is now needed for. On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dima Dorfman wrote: > Is anybody working, or planning on starting in the near future, on > devd or similar? I'm thinking of giving it a shot, but I'd rather not > duplicate effort and/or step on anybody's toes. > > Thanks. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 10:12:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBEBC37B419 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAQIAvO09289; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:10:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:57:58 PST." Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:10:56 +0100 Message-ID: <9287.1006798256@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Matthew Jacob writes : >I'm curious what you think a devd is now needed for. Devd would be responsible for doing much of what usbd and pccardd is doing wrt "doing things when devices appear" but in a more general setting so that we end up having 3-4 places things should be configured. As the worst case example: The flash-card from my camera can be plugged into a USB gadget, a pccard gadget or a parallel port gadget. I wouldn't want to have to configure it three different places to act the same. I have no plans for working on devd directly, but I'll happily put any needed hooks into DEVFS. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 10:28:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D1837B41B for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dg@localhost) by root.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id fAQILiL69097; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dg) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:21:44 -0800 From: David Greenman To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Matthew Dillon , Kirk McKusick , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using a larger block size on large filesystems Message-ID: <20011126102144.A68993@nexus.root.com> References: <200111241845.fAOIjM377587@apollo.backplane.com> <34669.1006787273@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <34669.1006787273@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za>; from sheldonh@starjuice.net on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:07:53PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Do you agree with me that we'd benefit the largest number of >installations by targetting applications with MTA-like access on small >files? Given the radial density of modern disk drives, the amount of time needed to read an additional 8KB in a random access scenario is quite trivial - usually less than .25ms, making the total percentage increase in access time small enough to not be a significant concern. -DG David Greenman Co-founder, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org President, TeraSolutions, Inc. - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 13:23: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from salmon.maths.tcd.ie (salmon.maths.tcd.ie [134.226.81.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D69737B417; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 26 Nov 2001 21:23:02 +0000 (GMT) To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Robert Watson , arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/tail forward.c In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:05:31 PST." <20011125150531.A93698@xor.obsecurity.org> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:23:01 +0000 From: Ian Dowse Message-ID: <200111262123.aa20504@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20011125150531.A93698@xor.obsecurity.org>, Kris Kennaway writes: > >It would be nice if this could be abstracted somehow so the >application doesn't have to do both. Most application writers are >going to forget this. Yes, it would be nice to have some sort of conversion layer that used polling of the underlying filesystem to allow use of the kqueue API even when active notification is not directly available. There would of course be a trade-off between efficiency and timely notifications; maybe some sort backoff algorithm for polling would give acceptable results. I'm not sure I'd like to see what would happen if an application that expects to be able to monitor hundreds of files efficiently was to try to do this over NFS though :-) Ian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 13:29:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from peter3.wemm.org (c1315225-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com [24.14.150.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024EB37B41D for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from overcee.netplex.com.au (overcee.wemm.org [10.0.0.3]) by peter3.wemm.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAQLTbM72892 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:29:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) Received: from wemm.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by overcee.netplex.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD31B380D; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:29:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@wemm.org) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:29:37 -0800 From: Peter Wemm Message-Id: <20011126212937.AD31B380D@overcee.netplex.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew Jacob wrote: > I'm curious what you think a devd is now needed for. As a common place to hook in "device related" trigger events. Currently pccardd (on OLDCARD) performs two functions.. It drives the bus scan and driver assignment, and secondly it runs userland programs in response to device events (insert/remove). usbd used to do the same thing, but now it is solely an optional userland event trigger. NEWCARD does not have this functionality anywhere. Insert a card and a network interface appears.. and thats it. There is no place to add (for example) a dhclient event. devd would be a general purpose replacement for usbd and the trigger part of pccardd, and provide the functionality to newcard. It would also be a place where a program could be called to respond to new nodes appearing in /dev for adjusting any permissions needed according to some sort of template system or something. (But it would be a mistake to mix the two things up at this point, as the permissions setter is prime bikeshed material. IMHO, provide the hooks first, then once we have the framework, then revisit the permissions). > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Dima Dorfman wrote: > > > Is anybody working, or planning on starting in the near future, on > > devd or similar? I'm thinking of giving it a shot, but I'd rather not > > duplicate effort and/or step on anybody's toes. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > > Cheers, -Peter -- Peter Wemm - peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; peter@netplex.com.au "All of this is for nothing if we don't go to the stars" - JMS/B5 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 13:37:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail12.speakeasy.net (mail12.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8679837B419 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:37:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24635 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2001 21:37:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail12.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 26 Nov 2001 21:37:09 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20011126212937.AD31B380D@overcee.netplex.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 13:37:07 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Peter Wemm Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Dima Dorfman , mjacob@feral.com Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26-Nov-01 Peter Wemm wrote: > Matthew Jacob wrote: >> I'm curious what you think a devd is now needed for. > > As a common place to hook in "device related" trigger events. Currently > pccardd (on OLDCARD) performs two functions.. It drives the bus scan and > driver assignment, and secondly it runs userland programs in response to > device events (insert/remove). usbd used to do the same thing, but now > it is solely an optional userland event trigger. NEWCARD does not > have this functionality anywhere. Insert a card and a network interface > appears.. and thats it. There is no place to add (for example) a dhclient > event. > > devd would be a general purpose replacement for usbd and the trigger part > of pccardd, and provide the functionality to newcard. > > It would also be a place where a program could be called to respond to new > nodes appearing in /dev for adjusting any permissions needed according > to some sort of template system or something. (But it would be a mistake > to mix the two things up at this point, as the permissions setter is prime > bikeshed material. IMHO, provide the hooks first, then once we have the > framework, then revisit the permissions). At BSDCon, the discussion seemed to reflect that we actually have two devds. - devd - Handles device events including insertion/deletion, etc. This would not only handle removable devices like pccard and USB, but "static" devices like ethernet adapters, etc. This allows one to centralize device configuration for all devices. - devfsd - Manages devfs. This includes permissions, permission policies, etc. Warner was originally going to have funded time to spend on devd, but that is now looking like less of a reality. -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 15: 5:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo.feral.com [192.67.166.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882E237B416 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.feral.com (mjacob@mailhost.feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by beppo.feral.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fAQN5iW69528; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:05:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 15:05:44 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob X-Sender: mjacob@beppo Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Peter Wemm Cc: Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <20011126212937.AD31B380D@overcee.netplex.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Peter Wemm wrote: > Matthew Jacob wrote: > > I'm curious what you think a devd is now needed for. > > As a common place to hook in "device related" trigger events. Currently > pccardd (on OLDCARD) performs two functions.. It drives the bus scan and > driver assignment, and secondly it runs userland programs in response to > device events (insert/remove). usbd used to do the same thing, but now > it is solely an optional userland event trigger. NEWCARD does not > have this functionality anywhere. Insert a card and a network interface > appears.. and thats it. There is no place to add (for example) a dhclient > event. > > devd would be a general purpose replacement for usbd and the trigger part > of pccardd, and provide the functionality to newcard. Yes, I see that now. I would rather imagine, though, that infrastructure that comes and goes should be only coincidental to device node creation- whole stacks of devices come and go that don't have device nodes. Still- one has to ask, "if usbd or pccard disks are driven by 'ata' or 'da', then it's up to 'ata' or 'da' to call make_dev"- and that seems like this is all that we need devfs to do. Adding hooks via devfs makes a linkage that requires a device node when in fact most of the stuff that usbd or pccard do has nothing to do with device node names. (I guess implicit in all of this is a desire to see FreeBSD avoid the obligate device tree hierarchy path (no pun intended) that Sun and other OBP machines have taken). > > It would also be a place where a program could be called to respond to new > nodes appearing in /dev for adjusting any permissions needed according > to some sort of template system or something. (But it would be a mistake > to mix the two things up at this point, as the permissions setter is prime > bikeshed material. IMHO, provide the hooks first, then once we have the > framework, then revisit the permissions). It seems to me wrong to do 'adjustments'. Either you have a model that trusts drivers to do the right thing when the call make_dev, or you don't. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 16: 8: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422F337B405 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.9.1) id fAR07mZ85526; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:07:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:07:48 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200111270007.fAR07mZ85526@apollo.backplane.com> To: David Greenman Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Kirk McKusick , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using a larger block size on large filesystems References: <200111241845.fAOIjM377587@apollo.backplane.com> <34669.1006787273@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> <20011126102144.A68993@nexus.root.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG : :>Do you agree with me that we'd benefit the largest number of :>installations by targetting applications with MTA-like access on small :>files? : : Given the radial density of modern disk drives, the amount of time needed :to read an additional 8KB in a random access scenario is quite trivial - :usually less than .25ms, making the total percentage increase in access :time small enough to not be a significant concern. : :-DG : :David Greenman Not to mention the increased memory capacity in modern machines. When you put it together, we ought to see only small differences in regards to random seek+read performance. apollo:/src/misc# ./rs /dev/da0s1c 4096 calculating size using seek/read search...24461946880 bytes Random seek/read test file size 23328.73MB blockSize 4.00KB 172.00 seek+read/sec 174.07 seek+read/sec 176.03 seek+read/sec 173.59 seek+read/sec apollo:/src/misc# ./rs /dev/da0s1c 8192 calculating size using seek/read search...24461942784 bytes Random seek/read test file size 23328.73MB blockSize 8.00KB 169.70 seek+read/sec 171.59 seek+read/sec 168.59 seek+read/sec 146.61 seek+read/sec apollo:/src/misc# ./rs /dev/da0s1c 16384 calculating size using seek/read search...24461934592 bytes Random seek/read test file size 23328.72MB blockSize 16.00KB 159.41 seek+read/sec 160.67 seek+read/sec 164.88 seek+read/sec 160.14 seek+read/sec I've included the program below.. it would be cool if people with RAID systems could run the same tests. -Matt Matthew Dillon /* * RANDSEEK.C * * randseek file/device [blocksize] */ #include #include #include #include #include #include static void startTiming(void); static long stopTiming(void); static off_t sizeSearch(int fd, int blockSize, char *buf); int main(int ac, char **av) { int fd; int blockSize = 8192; int load; int count; struct stat st; off_t size; char *buf; srandom(1); /* use same sequence every time */ if (ac == 1) { fprintf(stderr, "%s file_or_device [blocksize]\n", av[0]); exit(1); } if (ac > 2) blockSize = strtol(av[2], NULL, 0); if ((buf = malloc(blockSize)) == NULL) { fprintf(stderr, "Unable to malloc block size\n"); exit(1); } if ((fd = open(av[1], O_RDONLY)) < 0) { perror("open"); exit(1); } size = lseek(fd, 0L, 2); if (size <= 0) { if (fstat(fd, &st) == 0) size = st.st_size; } if (size <= 0) { printf("calculating size using seek/read search..."); size = sizeSearch(fd, blockSize, buf); printf("%qd bytes\n", (quad_t)size); } size = size - size % blockSize; if (size <= 0 || blockSize <= 0 || blockSize > size) { fprintf(stderr, "Unusable file or block size\n"); exit(1); } printf( "Random seek/read test file size %6.2fMB blockSize %6.2fKB\n", (double)size / (1024.0 * 1024.0), (double)blockSize / 1024.0 ); count = load = 0; startTiming(); for (;;) { off_t off = (random() % size / blockSize) * blockSize; lseek(fd, off, 0); read(fd, buf, blockSize); if (load == 0) { /* * Calculatin timing window (approx 3 seconds) */ ++count; if (count % 10 == 0 && stopTiming() > 3000000) { load = count; count = 0; startTiming(); } } else { /* * Compute seek+read rate for timing window */ if (++count == load) { int us = stopTiming(); printf( "%6.2f seek+read/sec\n", (double)load / (double)us * 1000000.0 ); fflush(stdout); count = 0; startTiming(); } } } } static struct timeval Tv1; static struct timeval Tv2; static void startTiming(void) { gettimeofday(&Tv1, NULL); } static long stopTiming(void) { gettimeofday(&Tv2, NULL); return ((Tv2.tv_usec + 1000000 - Tv1.tv_usec) + (Tv2.tv_sec - Tv1.tv_sec - 1) * 1000000); } static off_t sizeSearch(int fd, int blockSize, char *buf) { off_t beg = 4096; off_t off = 0; for (;;) { lseek(fd, beg, 0); if (read(fd, buf, blockSize) != blockSize) break; beg <<= 1; } off = beg; beg = beg >> 1; while (beg != off) { off_t mid = (beg + off) / 2; mid -= mid % blockSize; lseek(fd, mid, 0); if (read(fd, buf, blockSize) == blockSize) { beg = mid; if (mid + blockSize == off) break; } else { off = mid; } } return(off); } To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 17:31:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from bsdone.bsdwins.com (www.bsdwins.com [192.58.184.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 142B437B405 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jwd@localhost) by bsdone.bsdwins.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id fAR1V6G00486 for freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:31:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jwd) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:31:06 -0500 From: John De Boskey To: Arch List Subject: Re: Comments on kern/32106 (MAXSHELLCMDLEN increase) Message-ID: <20011126203106.A450@bsdwins.com> References: <20011125183344.A1257@FreeBSD.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011125183344.A1257@FreeBSD.org>; from jwd@FreeBSD.ORG on Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 06:33:45PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG 3 small patches can be found at: http://people.freebsd.org/~jwd/execve/execve.patch and are included below. Please let me know if you see any major problems. -John Index: sys/sys/imgact.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/sys/imgact.h,v retrieving revision 1.24 diff -u -r1.24 imgact.h --- sys/sys/imgact.h 26 Sep 2000 05:09:15 -0000 1.24 +++ sys/sys/imgact.h 27 Nov 2001 01:16:43 -0000 @@ -36,7 +36,7 @@ #ifndef _SYS_IMGACT_H_ #define _SYS_IMGACT_H_ -#define MAXSHELLCMDLEN 64 +#define MAXSHELLCMDLEN 128 struct image_params { struct proc *proc; /* our process struct */ Index: sys/kern/imgact_shell.c =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/kern/imgact_shell.c,v retrieving revision 1.22 diff -u -r1.22 imgact_shell.c --- sys/kern/imgact_shell.c 26 Apr 2000 20:58:39 -0000 1.22 +++ sys/kern/imgact_shell.c 26 Nov 2001 23:52:46 -0000 @@ -74,7 +74,7 @@ */ for (ihp = &image_header[2]; *ihp != '\n' && *ihp != '#'; ++ihp) { if (ihp >= &image_header[MAXSHELLCMDLEN]) - return(ENOEXEC); + return(ENAMETOOLONG); } line_endp = ihp; Index: lib/libc/sys/execve.2 =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/lib/libc/sys/execve.2,v retrieving revision 1.29 diff -u -r1.29 execve.2 --- lib/libc/sys/execve.2 26 Oct 2001 17:38:20 -0000 1.29 +++ lib/libc/sys/execve.2 27 Nov 2001 00:17:22 -0000 @@ -210,6 +210,9 @@ .It Bq Er ENAMETOOLONG A component of a pathname exceeded 255 characters, or an entire path name exceeded 1023 characters. +.It Bq Er ENAMETOOLONG +When invoking an interpreted script, the interpreter name +exceeds MAXSHELLCMDLEN characters. .It Bq Er ENOENT The new process file does not exist. .It Bq Er ELOOP ----- John W. De Boskey's Original Message ----- > http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/32106 > > This pr seems particulary straight forward. However, I believe > the real problem lies in libc/gen/exec.c and it's handling > of the ENOEXEC errno being returned from exec_shell_imgact(). > ENOEXEC as a return code appears to be overloaded. > > A quick review of the code leads me to believe that > exec_shell_imgact() could/should return E2BIG which > is handled correctly in execvp() by dropping through > to the done label and returning -1 (ie: the interpreter > path is too big). > > As to the pr submitters original request, I do not see > any earth shattering reasons why MAXSHELLCMDLEN can't > be increased (if only to 128 and not 512). > > Comments? > > -john > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 19:25:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3B6337B417 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:25:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.11.4/8.11.4) id fAR3P6e25466; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:25:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:25:06 -0500 (EST) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <200111270325.fAR3P6e25466@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: mjacob@feral.com Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <20011126230600$59b3@traf.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20011126212937.AD31B380D@overcee.netplex.com.au> Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In article <20011126230600$59b3@traf.lcs.mit.edu> you write: >It seems to me wrong to do 'adjustments'. Either you have a model that trusts >drivers to do the right thing when the call make_dev, or you don't. My site policy about what permissions certain device nodes should have should not, and in some cases probably cannot, be written directly into a device driver. The driver should use the most conservative possible settings -- in most cases, root:wheel/600 -- and let user-land code apply whatever policy is desired. We already have mechanisms for expressing some of that policy (e.g., /etc/fbtab) but it's not cognizant of transient devices. That's part of the problem which needs to be solved. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 22:29:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C45937B416 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fAR6TYa03593; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:29:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAR6TVM10680; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:29:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200111270629.fAR6TVM10680@harmony.village.org> To: Dima Dorfman Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:10:13 GMT." <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> References: <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:29:31 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Dima Dorfman writes: : Is anybody working, or planning on starting in the near future, on : devd or similar? I'm thinking of giving it a shot, but I'd rather not : duplicate effort and/or step on anybody's toes. Which part of devd? "The do commands when devices are added to the configured device tree," or "the preserve permissions in /dev" one :-) I had funding to do the former, but it has dried up now. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 22:31:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758CC37B419 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:31:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fAR6Via03604; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:31:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAR6ViM10710; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:31:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200111270631.fAR6ViM10710@harmony.village.org> Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? To: Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:29:31 MST." <200111270629.fAR6TVM10680@harmony.village.org> References: <200111270629.fAR6TVM10680@harmony.village.org> <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:31:44 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200111270629.fAR6TVM10680@harmony.village.org> Warner Losh writes: : I had funding to do the former, but it has dried up now. I may do it anyway, but if you wanted to help with/drive what we called devd at BSDcon, that would be great. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Mon Nov 26 22:37:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo.feral.com [192.67.166.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DFF37B419 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.feral.com (mjacob@mailhost.feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by beppo.feral.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fAR6bLW71606; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 22:37:21 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob X-Sender: mjacob@beppo Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Garrett Wollman Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <200111270325.fAR3P6e25466@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Again, this seems wrong to me, but maybe I'm just lacking sleep right now. It seems to me that permissions set by the driver are meaningless if you then want the userland daemon to set 'real' policy- remember that there's a time gap between creating the node (in the driver) and the userland daemon setting the 'real' mode. Seems to me that you should then go further (if the device driver isn't really the owner of mode setting)- make this a ring system where drivers create nodes that only other entities in the kernel see- but it becomes a userland devd that makes them visible to the user applications. More like solaris or the AIX model (I *think* for the latter- just inferring from what I see from user space - haven't seen AIX source code). -matt On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Garrett Wollman wrote: > In article <20011126230600$59b3@traf.lcs.mit.edu> you write: > > >It seems to me wrong to do 'adjustments'. Either you have a model that trusts > >drivers to do the right thing when the call make_dev, or you don't. > > My site policy about what permissions certain device nodes should have > should not, and in some cases probably cannot, be written directly > into a device driver. The driver should use the most conservative > possible settings -- in most cases, root:wheel/600 -- and let > user-land code apply whatever policy is desired. We already have > mechanisms for expressing some of that policy (e.g., /etc/fbtab) but > it's not cognizant of transient devices. That's part of the problem > which needs to be solved. > > -GAWollman > > -- > Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same > wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom > Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame > MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 0:44: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6D937B69B for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 00:44:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (ilmar@localhost) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with ESMTP id fAR8hhv06853 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 03:43:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ilmar@watson.org) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 03:43:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Ilmar S. Habibulin" To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: ACL on device nodes (Re: Anybody working on devd?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011127034122.X6652-100000@fledge.watson.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wonder does it has any sense to include ACL support in DEVFS? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 1:50:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from argyre.fr.uu.net (mail.fr.uu.net [194.98.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C03F37C2B6 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 01:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [213.11.39.71] ([213.11.39.71]) by argyre.fr.uu.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00908 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:54:52 +0100 (MET) From: annuaire@annuairefrancais.com Message-Id: <200111270954.KAA00908@argyre.fr.uu.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:47:09 +0100 To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Info : L'Annuaire Francais par Departement facilite vos recherches Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bonjour, L'annuaire Francais Par departement http://www.annuairefrancais.com integre desormais un moteur de recherche pour affiner vos recherches sur le web. L'inscription reste gratuite et la validation toujours manuelle. L'adresse d'inscription est desormais http://inscrip.annuairefrancais.com Pour toutes suggestions contactez par mail : direction : laurent@annuairefrancais.com validation : validation@annuairefrancais.com publicite : publicite@annuairefrancais.com partenariat : partenariat@annuairefrancais.com INFORMATIONS : retrait de notre liste d'info : http://supressinfo.annuairefrancais.com (L'annuaire francais envoi 2 infos par an) L'annuaire Francais 119 Rue des Pyrenees 75020 PARIS +33 (0)1 43 67 00 74 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 3:41:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from tao.org.uk (genius.tao.org.uk [212.135.162.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82BFB37B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 03:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by tao.org.uk (Postfix, from userid 100) id 30DE737C; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:41:33 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:41:33 +0000 From: Josef Karthauser To: Garrett Wollman Cc: mjacob@feral.com, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Message-ID: <20011127114133.S643@tao.org.uk> References: <20011126212937.AD31B380D@overcee.netplex.com.au> <20011126230600$59b3@traf.lcs.mit.edu> <200111270325.fAR3P6e25466@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TOcFo/l1T3s1H/TJ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111270325.fAR3P6e25466@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 10:25:06PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --TOcFo/l1T3s1H/TJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 10:25:06PM -0500, Garrett Wollman wrote: > In article <20011126230600$59b3@traf.lcs.mit.edu> you write: >=20 > >It seems to me wrong to do 'adjustments'. Either you have a model that t= rusts > >drivers to do the right thing when the call make_dev, or you don't. >=20 > My site policy about what permissions certain device nodes should have > should not, and in some cases probably cannot, be written directly > into a device driver. The driver should use the most conservative > possible settings -- in most cases, root:wheel/600 -- and let > user-land code apply whatever policy is desired. We already have > mechanisms for expressing some of that policy (e.g., /etc/fbtab) but > it's not cognizant of transient devices. That's part of the problem > which needs to be solved. Devices that come and go can come and go quickly. For instance a USB sync'd palmpilot only appears as a usb device once the hotsync button has been pressed, and disappears once the sync process has finished. A userland process that wants to sync has to wait until it sees the usb device node appear to know that it is there (unless usbd can fire the process off at enumeration time). If a userland process pokes with the node permissions sometime after the device node appears, there's a race between the application and the userland devd. Sometimes the sync will succeed, sometimes it will fail due to wrong dev node permissions. For this reason I'd prefer the devnode to be created with the right permissions in the first place. Phk was talking about loading user/group policies into the kernel so that make_dev can use them whilst creating the node. Joe --TOcFo/l1T3s1H/TJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjwDe+wACgkQXVIcjOaxUBb/uACgvQ+Mi481V5gr3ZguLE+uZJds 9esAnjJbFGG5K6qsiokduaZhbayVJ6rW =IYWY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TOcFo/l1T3s1H/TJ-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 5:39:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from Awfulhak.org (gw.Awfulhak.org [217.204.245.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6FDF37B405 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 05:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (root@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org [fec0::1:12]) by Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fARDdF650399; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:39:15 GMT (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Received: from hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (brian@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hak.lan.Awfulhak.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fARDdAU25756; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:39:10 GMT (envelope-from brian@freebsd-services.com) Message-Id: <200111271339.fARDdAU25756@hak.lan.Awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Garrett Wollman , mjacob@feral.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@freebsd-services.com Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Message from Josef Karthauser of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:41:33 GMT." <20011127114133.S643@tao.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:39:10 +0000 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 10:25:06PM -0500, Garrett Wollman wrote: > > In article <20011126230600$59b3@traf.lcs.mit.edu> you write: > >=20 > > >It seems to me wrong to do 'adjustments'. Either you have a model that t= > rusts > > >drivers to do the right thing when the call make_dev, or you don't. > >=20 > > My site policy about what permissions certain device nodes should have > > should not, and in some cases probably cannot, be written directly > > into a device driver. The driver should use the most conservative > > possible settings -- in most cases, root:wheel/600 -- and let > > user-land code apply whatever policy is desired. We already have > > mechanisms for expressing some of that policy (e.g., /etc/fbtab) but > > it's not cognizant of transient devices. That's part of the problem > > which needs to be solved. > > Devices that come and go can come and go quickly. For instance a > USB sync'd palmpilot only appears as a usb device once the hotsync > button has been pressed, and disappears once the sync process has > finished. A userland process that wants to sync has to wait until > it sees the usb device node appear to know that it is there (unless > usbd can fire the process off at enumeration time). If a userland > process pokes with the node permissions sometime after the device > node appears, there's a race between the application and the userland > devd. Sometimes the sync will succeed, sometimes it will fail due > to wrong dev node permissions. > > For this reason I'd prefer the devnode to be created with the right > permissions in the first place. Phk was talking about loading > user/group policies into the kernel so that make_dev can use them > whilst creating the node. One of the possibilities for solving the persistency problem that was suggested at the Kernel Summit at Usenix this year was to simply keep the data in a file underneath the devfs mount point. A default set of permissions will be known about by the device driver that does the make_dev(). If the user tells devfs to use different permissions, they get stored in the file underneath the mount point and simply override whatever make_dev() asks for. You can subsequently umount the devfs and move/copy the file around (this is good for creating chroot/jail environments). At mount time, devfs validates the file. If it's garbage, the mount fails. I'd like if devfs *had* to be mounted on top of this file instead of on a directory: # mkdir /chroot .... create chroot environment .... # touch /chroot/dev # ls -ld /chroot/dev -rw------- 1 root wheel 0 Nov 27 13:14 /chroot/dev # mount -t devfs devfs /chroot/dev # ls -l /chroot/dev crw-r--r-- 1 root operator 117, 0 Nov 26 19:13 acd0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 5 Nov 26 19:13 acd0a -> acd0 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 5 Nov 26 19:13 acd0c -> acd0 crw-rw---- 1 root operator 152, 0 Nov 26 19:13 acpi ..... crw------- 1 root wheel 12, 15 Nov 26 19:13 ttyvf crw------- 1 root wheel 52, 0 Nov 27 13:20 tun0 crw------- 1 root wheel 52, 1 Nov 26 19:13 tun1 crw------- 1 root wheel 52, 2 Nov 26 19:13 tun2 crw------- 1 root wheel 52, 3 Nov 26 19:13 tun3 lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 Nov 26 19:13 urandom -> random ..... # chmod 664 /chroot/dev/tun0 # chmod 665 /chroot/dev/tun4 # umount /chroot/dev # ls -l /chroot/dev -rw------- 1 root wheel 2048 Nov 27 13:25 /chroot/dev Of course doing this sort of thing is a bit of a PITA (take a look at Solaris's namefs). It may be easier to have the mountpoint as a directory and have a reserved file name for the persistency info, but I don't think that's as orthogonal. It could also be made possible to ``chmod -f'' and ``chown -f'' things that don't exist (and won't be created by a clone handler like tun4 is above) so that policy can be set for removable devices. It might also be necessary to allow something like ``chmod -f 660 /dev/tun*'' and for devfs to store this and apply it to matching devices as they are make_dev()d. I'm not sure how the policies should be listed - probably with a new application. -- Brian http://www.freebsd-services.com/ Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 6:33: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F97237B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fAREWw628016 for arch@freebsd.org; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:32:58 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAREVjF12886 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:31:45 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200111271431.fAREVjF12886@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: arch@freebsd.org Subject: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:31:44 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi OpenBSD and NetBSD both use BSD sort from BSD 4.4, while we use GNU sort. Is there a reason for this? I have locally replaced our sort with NETBSD's, and things are running just fine. OK to commit this? M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 6:52:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE61137B405 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 06:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.seasidesoftware.co.za) by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 168jc3-000LJc-00; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:53:31 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Mark Murray Cc: arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:31:44 GMT." <200111271431.fAREVjF12886@grimreaper.grondar.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:53:31 +0200 Message-ID: <81939.1006872811@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:31:44 GMT, Mark Murray wrote: | I have locally replaced our sort with NETBSD's, and things are | running just fine. | | OK to commit this? If you've tested the startup and periodic scripts locally, I think it's fair to unleash it on -CURRENT and see if anyone bleeds. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 7:38: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765C637B41A for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.seasidesoftware.co.za) by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 168kKC-000LTx-00; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:39:08 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Matthew Dillon Cc: David Greenman , Kirk McKusick , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using a larger block size on large filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:07:48 PST." <200111270007.fAR07mZ85526@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:39:08 +0200 Message-ID: <82580.1006875548@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:07:48 PST, Matthew Dillon wrote: | Not to mention the increased memory capacity in modern machines. | When you put it together, we ought to see only small differences | in regards to random seek+read performance. That's encouraging. | I've included the program below.. it would be cool if people | with RAID systems could run the same tests. I'm almost finished with my batch of postmark benchmarks and will try your program next. Postmark seems to reflect MTA-like access patterns very accurately. Postmark shows my Mylex eXtremeRAID + 15Krpm storage as about 3 times faster than my Compaq SmartArray + 10Krpm storage, and Exim shows a corresponding performance increase approaching a factor of 3. Can we rely on your program to be similarly reflective of a RDBMS-like access patterns? Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 8: 2:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.bsdhome.com (rdu25-2-113.nc.rr.com [24.25.2.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BF737B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:02:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from neutrino.bsdhome.com (jupiter [192.168.220.13]) by smtp.bsdhome.com (8.11.3nb1/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fARG2C716719; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from bsd@localhost) by neutrino.bsdhome.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fARG27q20819; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:02:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bsd) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:02:07 -0500 From: Brian Dean To: John De Boskey Cc: Arch List Subject: Re: Comments on kern/32106 (MAXSHELLCMDLEN increase) Message-ID: <20011127110207.A4106@neutrino.bsdhome.com> References: <20011125183344.A1257@FreeBSD.org> <20011126203106.A450@bsdwins.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011126203106.A450@bsdwins.com>; from jwd@bsdwins.com on Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 08:31:06PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 08:31:06PM -0500, John De Boskey wrote: > > 3 small patches can be found at: > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jwd/execve/execve.patch > > and are included below. Please let me know if you see > any major problems. > > -John Looks ok to me. The only thing that I can think of that may be of concern is increasing the command length results in additional kernel stack space being required, which is probably why it is fairly small to begin with. The PR had 512 which is probably way too much for a stack allocated variable. Making this variable allocate dynamic storage is probably not a good idea either for performance reasons. While increasing to 128 adds an additional 64 bytes to what is already required, it seems like a reasonable compromise. -Brian -- Brian Dean bsd@FreeBSD.org bsd@bsdhome.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 10:32: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts6.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AC937B41C for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from khan.anarcat.dyndns.org ([65.94.177.56]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20011127183155.QPCY9997.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@khan.anarcat.dyndns.org> for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:31:55 -0500 Received: from shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (shall.anarcat.dyndns.org [192.168.0.1]) by khan.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 717BE1A24 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by shall.anarcat.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D6E2A20ADB; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:33:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:33:08 -0500 From: The Anarcat To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: C99 standard: stdint.h Message-ID: <20011127183307.GB520@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="s/l3CgOIzMHHjg/5" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --s/l3CgOIzMHHjg/5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! It seems the C99 standard added a few headers to the crowd. One of those is stdint.h and is used to allow programmers to "portably" access macros such as uint32_t and such..=20 I know we have sys/types.h and that we don't really *need* stdint.h, but shouldn't we include it anyways, just for standards compliance sake? I guess I could make some research to find out what exactly is this .h supposed to provide and hack some file together... A. --s/l3CgOIzMHHjg/5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iEYEARECAAYFAjwD3GIACgkQttcWHAnWiGcJfACcDVQmNbmdymbnUfqWI2Fk/Kx/ ywYAnjWd/jC+F7drQvOw+MkQWzFd731t =TaMl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --s/l3CgOIzMHHjg/5-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 10:39:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E8D37B41D for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.seasidesoftware.co.za) by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 168nAI-000MHF-00; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:41:06 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: The Anarcat Cc: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C99 standard: stdint.h In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:33:08 EST." <20011127183307.GB520@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:41:06 +0200 Message-ID: <85636.1006886466@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:33:08 EST, The Anarcat wrote: | I know we have sys/types.h and that we don't really *need* stdint.h, but | shouldn't we include it anyways, just for standards compliance sake? Yes, and we do in -CURRENT. Allow it time to melt down to -STABLE. :-) Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 11:15:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from apollo.backplane.com (apollo.backplane.com [216.240.41.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4487E37B41C for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:15:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dillon@localhost) by apollo.backplane.com (8.11.6/8.9.1) id fARJEhn93832; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dillon) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:14:43 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Dillon Message-Id: <200111271914.fARJEhn93832@apollo.backplane.com> To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: David Greenman , Kirk McKusick , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using a larger block size on large filesystems References: <82580.1006875548@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :I'm almost finished with my batch of postmark benchmarks and will try :your program next. : :Postmark seems to reflect MTA-like access patterns very accurately. :Postmark shows my Mylex eXtremeRAID + 15Krpm storage as about 3 times :faster than my Compaq SmartArray + 10Krpm storage, and Exim shows a :corresponding performance increase approaching a factor of 3. : :Can we rely on your program to be similarly reflective of a RDBMS-like :access patterns? : :Ciao, :Sheldon. It should be reflective of the absolute worst case type of database access - a random seek/read. This is quite typical of what databases handling large numbers of independant transactions (think VISA) have to deal with. It is not reflective of a general purpose RDBMS, since those rely heavily on caching (and would look more like an MTA access pattern). -Matt Matthew Dillon To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 11:34: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E522937B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id fARJXfc02002; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:33:41 -0800 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:33:41 -0800 From: Brooks Davis To: The Anarcat Cc: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C99 standard: stdint.h Message-ID: <20011127113341.A1681@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20011127183307.GB520@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011127183307.GB520@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org>; from anarcat@anarcat.dyndns.org on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:33:08PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:33:08PM -0500, The Anarcat wrote: > Hi! >=20 > It seems the C99 standard added a few headers to the crowd. One of those > is stdint.h and is used to allow programmers to "portably" access macros > such as uint32_t and such..=20 >=20 > I know we have sys/types.h and that we don't really *need* stdint.h, but > shouldn't we include it anyways, just for standards compliance sake? >=20 > I guess I could make some research to find out what exactly is this .h > supposed to provide and hack some file together... An implementation of stdint.h was commited to current 11/2. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8A+qUXY6L6fI4GtQRAppwAJ9Anqran3hUOsE/OTghwT8t37UEowCfbMNu DR0RiziZBzAtQGxzmYN8ngg= =tcP7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --pf9I7BMVVzbSWLtt-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 11:36:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from axl.seasidesoftware.co.za (axl.seasidesoftware.co.za [196.31.7.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2595937B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:36:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.seasidesoftware.co.za) by axl.seasidesoftware.co.za with local-esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 168o32-000MWq-00; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:37:40 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Matthew Dillon Cc: David Greenman , Kirk McKusick , freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Using a larger block size on large filesystems In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:14:43 PST." <200111271914.fARJEhn93832@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:37:40 +0200 Message-ID: <86603.1006889860@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:14:43 PST, Matthew Dillon wrote: | It should be reflective of the absolute worst case type of database | access - a random seek/read. Well, having been unable to run your program, let me post the Postmark results. The results [shown at the end of the message] show that, for file sizes below 2KB, the new defaults (block/frag 16KB/2KB) would have a noticeable impact. I'm not convinced, however, that applications that use a large number of such small files could be considered "mainstream" and think that it is not unreasonable to expect operators of such applications to do some tuning. If you (and whoever else understands more about RDBMS-like operations) are comfortable with the impact of the change on that class of appliations, then this looks like a bit of a no-brainer. Regarding the minimum filesystem size for which the new defaults should apply, I can't really find a filesystem size for which they _don't_ improve performance (and can't think why there would be one). I got down to 128MB and was still seeing performance improvements. David O'Brien suggested on IRC that the concerns probably had more to do with the number of superblocks, which shouldn't be reduced below 2 by default if possible. I think we shouldn't force a filesystem down to 1 cylinder group when it might have had more with a smaller block/frag size. Otherwise, I think it's all systems go for the change! Ciao, Sheldon. Postmark results showing the impact of increased fs block/frag sizes: ===================================================================== File size: TPS (16/2): TPS (8/1): 16/2 %Gain over 8/1: (CPG 89) (CPG 22) 0.5KB-1KB 1041 1136 -8.36% 0.5KB-2KB 1086 961 13.01% 0.5KB-4KB 925 862 7.31% 0.5KB-8KB 781 735 6.26% 0.5KB-16KB 694 555 25.05% 0.5KB-32KB 454 333 36.34% 1KB-2KB 781 961 -18.73% 1KB-4KB 781 925 -15.57% 1KB-8KB 735 714 2.94% 1KB-16KB 714 510 40.00% 1KB-32KB 454 337 34.72% 2KB-4KB 806 781 3.20% 2KB-8KB 781 714 9.38% 2KB-16KB 694 531 30.70% 2KB-32KB 446 316 41.14% 4KB-8KB 735 657 11.87% 4KB-16KB 657 471 39.49% 4KB-32KB 446 312 42.95% 8KB-16KB 641 490 30.82% 8292-32KB 431 294 46.60% 16KB-32KB 416 312 33.33% 32KB-128KB 124 117 5.00% 128KB-128KB 119 109 9.00% File size shows the max and min file sizes for each batch run, with actual sizes evenly distributed through the range (effectively; a PRNG is used). A mixed selection of transactions is used: create, read, write, delete. TPS is the number of transactions per second, taken over the entire lifetime of the batch run, including the initial creation and subsequent deletion of files. A sufficiently large pool of files and number of transactions was selected such that TPS values for repeated runs differed by no more than 2 or 3 transactions for quicker runs, and not at all for longer runs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 11:37: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA3B37B419 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (relay2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3-2) with ESMTP id fARJb3720204; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:37:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3/6) with ESMTP id fARJb1W20195; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:37:01 +0100 (MET) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07349; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:37:02 +0100 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fARJb6t19029; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:37:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from alex) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:37:04 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Mark Murray , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011127203704.B14575@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> References: <200111271431.fAREVjF12886@grimreaper.grondar.org> <81939.1006872811@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <81939.1006872811@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za>; from sheldonh@starjuice.net on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 04:53:31PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Sheldon Hearn (sheldonh@starjuice.net): > If you've tested the startup and periodic scripts locally, I think it's > fair to unleash it on -CURRENT and see if anyone bleeds. :-) IIRC, there was some unicode special char handling, that was better in GNU sort and missing in BSD 4.4 sort. Check before please :) Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 14:38:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from bazooka.trit.org (bazooka.trit.org [63.198.170.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F15AB37B419 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 78E853EF3; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:38:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bazooka (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778203C130; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:38:54 +0000 (UTC) To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <200111270629.fAR6TVM10680@harmony.village.org>; from imp@harmony.village.org on "Mon, 26 Nov 2001 23:29:31 -0700" Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:38:49 +0000 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20011127223854.78E853EF3@bazooka.trit.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Dima Dorfman writes: > : Is anybody working, or planning on starting in the near future, on > : devd or similar? I'm thinking of giving it a shot, but I'd rather not > : duplicate effort and/or step on anybody's toes. > > Which part of devd? "The do commands when devices are added to the > configured device tree," or "the preserve permissions in /dev" one :-) I was talking about the former. What I have in mind is a generic "something has happened to this device, would the userland like to do anything in response?" kind of thing. Basically, we can have a notify_userland() API in the kernel which takes a dev_t and an event type, which gets filtered down to a devd userland daemon, which can take the appropriate action (this can either be executing an external program, or, in the case of something more complex and integrated like pccard, a builtin function). The advantages of this approach is that it's very simple, doesn't strictly depend on devfs, can probably be used to replace pccardd and usbd (although I haven't looked at the latter much), and if we stick a call to the hypothetical notify_userland() function in make_dev(), it can somewhat be used to control permissions in /dev, although not satisfactorily. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 14:43: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from green.bikeshed.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FBF337B423; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:42:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by green.bikeshed.org (8.11.4/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fARFWG336259; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:32:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green@green.bikeshed.org) Message-Id: <200111271532.fARFWG336259@green.bikeshed.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: Mark Murray , arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. In-Reply-To: Message from Sheldon Hearn of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:53:31 +0200." <81939.1006872811@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> From: "Brian F. Feldman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:32:15 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn wrote: > > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:31:44 GMT, Mark Murray wrote: > > | I have locally replaced our sort with NETBSD's, and things are > | running just fine. > | > | OK to commit this? > > If you've tested the startup and periodic scripts locally, I think it's > fair to unleash it on -CURRENT and see if anyone bleeds. :-) Does it support a superset of GNU sort features? At one point, I would have gone really nuts if anyone took my sort -k away from me :) -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 14:43:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A90D37B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:43:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fARMhca07828; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:43:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fARMhbM17326; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:43:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org> To: Dima Dorfman Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 22:38:49 GMT." <20011127223854.78E853EF3@bazooka.trit.org> References: <20011127223854.78E853EF3@bazooka.trit.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:43:37 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <20011127223854.78E853EF3@bazooka.trit.org> Dima Dorfman writes: : Warner Losh wrote: : > In message <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Dima Dorfman writes: : > : Is anybody working, or planning on starting in the near future, on : > : devd or similar? I'm thinking of giving it a shot, but I'd rather not : > : duplicate effort and/or step on anybody's toes. : > : > Which part of devd? "The do commands when devices are added to the : > configured device tree," or "the preserve permissions in /dev" one :-) : : I was talking about the former. What I have in mind is a generic : "something has happened to this device, would the userland like to do : anything in response?" kind of thing. Basically, we can have a : notify_userland() API in the kernel which takes a dev_t and an event : type, which gets filtered down to a devd userland daemon, which can : take the appropriate action (this can either be executing an external : program, or, in the case of something more complex and integrated like : pccard, a builtin function). But pccard doesn't deal in terms of dev_t, but rather device_t. The pccard bus system has no earthly clue what you just added to the system. Plus, unless jlemon has been busy, the network drivers do not add dev_t's. : The advantages of this approach is that it's very simple, doesn't : strictly depend on devfs, can probably be used to replace pccardd and : usbd (although I haven't looked at the latter much), and if we stick a : call to the hypothetical notify_userland() function in make_dev(), it : can somewhat be used to control permissions in /dev, although not : satisfactorily. I dislike this approach because it depends on dev_t rather than device_t. And there's no way to notify userland that "The bus says the plug and play info is XYZ, but no driver attached." so that the daemon can load the right driver. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 14:45:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC9337B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fARMjLa07839; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:45:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fARMjKM17357; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:45:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200111272245.fARMjKM17357@harmony.village.org> Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? To: Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:43:37 MST." <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org> References: <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org> <20011127223854.78E853EF3@bazooka.trit.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:45:20 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org> Warner Losh writes: : But pccard doesn't deal in terms of dev_t, but rather device_t. The : pccard bus system has no earthly clue what you just added to the : system. Plus, unless jlemon has been busy, the network drivers do not : add dev_t's. : : : The advantages of this approach is that it's very simple, doesn't : : strictly depend on devfs, can probably be used to replace pccardd and : : usbd (although I haven't looked at the latter much), and if we stick a : : call to the hypothetical notify_userland() function in make_dev(), it : : can somewhat be used to control permissions in /dev, although not : : satisfactorily. : : I dislike this approach because it depends on dev_t rather than : device_t. And there's no way to notify userland that "The bus says : the plug and play info is XYZ, but no driver attached." so that the : daemon can load the right driver. I'd also point out that devfsd, in my world view, dealt with dev_t, while devd dealt with device_t. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 14:47:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail11.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C0E37B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15850 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2001 22:48:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 27 Nov 2001 22:48:08 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200111272245.fARMjKM17357@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:47:35 -0800 (PST) From: John Baldwin To: Warner Losh Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG, Dima Dorfman Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 27-Nov-01 Warner Losh wrote: > In message <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org> Warner Losh > writes: >: But pccard doesn't deal in terms of dev_t, but rather device_t. The >: pccard bus system has no earthly clue what you just added to the >: system. Plus, unless jlemon has been busy, the network drivers do not >: add dev_t's. >: >: : The advantages of this approach is that it's very simple, doesn't >: : strictly depend on devfs, can probably be used to replace pccardd and >: : usbd (although I haven't looked at the latter much), and if we stick a >: : call to the hypothetical notify_userland() function in make_dev(), it >: : can somewhat be used to control permissions in /dev, although not >: : satisfactorily. >: >: I dislike this approach because it depends on dev_t rather than >: device_t. And there's no way to notify userland that "The bus says >: the plug and play info is XYZ, but no driver attached." so that the >: daemon can load the right driver. > > I'd also point out that devfsd, in my world view, dealt with dev_t, > while devd dealt with device_t. That's a good way of putting it, yes. :) > Warner -- John Baldwin <>< http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 14:58: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BE4337B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fARN1nj04294 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:01:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200111272301.fARN1nj04294@mass.dis.org> To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:45:20 MST." <200111272245.fARMjKM17357@harmony.village.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:01:49 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'd also point out that devfsd, in my world view, dealt with dev_t, > while devd dealt with device_t. I think the problem here is that the line is being drawn in the wrong place. Yes, there are a group of different things which need to be considered; responses to new devices, new device nodes, new media, etc. However, all of these group under the single heading of "dynamic changes in system configuration". And it would be highly desirable to group the policies that react to these changes in a single place, and manage them with a single tool. The alternative is a confusing mess. So, yes, we want a generic event-responsive architecture. And yes, we need to be able to script the responses to these events accordingly. And whether we call this facility "devd" or "devfsd" or "theamazingmancinid" is IMO immaterial. There are a couple of well-understood sets of event-response sets already: - new dev_t - new device_t - new media / media ejection request and probably several more that I've left out. Let's quite the squabbling over what the damn application is going to be called and get on with implementing something do to the work, ok? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 15: 0:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48AFD37B439 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id fARMvEW50742; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:57:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:57:13 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Warner Losh Cc: Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Message-ID: <20011127165713.S75389@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20011127223854.78E853EF3@bazooka.trit.org> <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 03:43:37PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > But pccard doesn't deal in terms of dev_t, but rather device_t. The > pccard bus system has no earthly clue what you just added to the > system. Plus, unless jlemon has been busy, the network drivers do not > add dev_t's. You rang? :-) Yes, -current has a dev_t for network devices, if that makes any difference. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 15: 1:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7838537B417; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fARN1ua07916; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:01:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fARN1tM17507; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:01:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200111272301.fARN1tM17507@harmony.village.org> To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:01:49 PST." <200111272301.fARN1nj04294@mass.dis.org> References: <200111272301.fARN1nj04294@mass.dis.org> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:01:55 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200111272301.fARN1nj04294@mass.dis.org> Mike Smith writes: : and probably several more that I've left out. Let's quite the : squabbling over what the damn application is going to be called and : get on with implementing something do to the work, ok? I don't share your optimism that this can be abstracted into one ball of goo and be ready for 5.0. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 15: 9:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo.feral.com [192.67.166.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A922737B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from wonky.feral.com (wonky.feral.com [192.67.166.7]) by beppo.feral.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fARN9bW77347; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:09:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:09:37 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob Reply-To: To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: Warner Losh , Dima Dorfman , Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <20011127165713.S75389@prism.flugsvamp.com> Message-ID: <20011127150929.R5474-100000@wonky.feral.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 03:43:37PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > But pccard doesn't deal in terms of dev_t, but rather device_t. The > > pccard bus system has no earthly clue what you just added to the > > system. Plus, unless jlemon has been busy, the network drivers do not > > add dev_t's. > > You rang? :-) > > Yes, -current has a dev_t for network devices, if that makes any difference. required or optional? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 15:21:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from bazooka.trit.org (bazooka.trit.org [63.198.170.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D16237B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2AED53EE0; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:21:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bazooka (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bazooka.trit.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D313C148; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:21:24 +0000 (UTC) To: Warner Losh Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <200111272243.fARMhbM17326@harmony.village.org>; from imp@harmony.village.org on "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:43:37 -0700" Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 23:21:19 +0000 From: Dima Dorfman Message-Id: <20011127232124.2AED53EE0@bazooka.trit.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20011127223854.78E853EF3@bazooka.trit.org> Dima Dorfman writes: > : Warner Losh wrote: > : > In message <20011126171018.F39FD3EDE@bazooka.trit.org> Dima Dorfman write > s: > : > : Is anybody working, or planning on starting in the near future, on > : > : devd or similar? I'm thinking of giving it a shot, but I'd rather not > : > : duplicate effort and/or step on anybody's toes. > : > > : > Which part of devd? "The do commands when devices are added to the > : > configured device tree," or "the preserve permissions in /dev" one :-) > : > : I was talking about the former. What I have in mind is a generic > : "something has happened to this device, would the userland like to do > : anything in response?" kind of thing. Basically, we can have a > : notify_userland() API in the kernel which takes a dev_t and an event > : type, which gets filtered down to a devd userland daemon, which can > : take the appropriate action (this can either be executing an external > : program, or, in the case of something more complex and integrated like > : pccard, a builtin function). > > But pccard doesn't deal in terms of dev_t, but rather device_t. The > pccard bus system has no earthly clue what you just added to the > system. Plus, unless jlemon has been busy, the network drivers do not > add dev_t's. > > : The advantages of this approach is that it's very simple, doesn't > : strictly depend on devfs, can probably be used to replace pccardd and > : usbd (although I haven't looked at the latter much), and if we stick a > : call to the hypothetical notify_userland() function in make_dev(), it > : can somewhat be used to control permissions in /dev, although not > : satisfactorily. > > I dislike this approach because it depends on dev_t rather than > device_t. And there's no way to notify userland that "The bus says > the plug and play info is XYZ, but no driver attached." so that the > daemon can load the right driver. Well then, it looks like I've done an excellent job of misunderstanding the issue. I'll go reread the usenix conference logs to see if I can figure it out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 15:25:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from prism.flugsvamp.com (cb58709-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.17.241.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3CE837B41B for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by prism.flugsvamp.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id fARNN6W51646; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:23:06 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jlemon) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:23:06 -0600 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Matthew Jacob Cc: Jonathan Lemon , Warner Losh , Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? Message-ID: <20011127172306.U75389@prism.flugsvamp.com> References: <20011127165713.S75389@prism.flugsvamp.com> <20011127150929.R5474-100000@wonky.feral.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <20011127150929.R5474-100000@wonky.feral.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 03:09:37PM -0800, Matthew Jacob wrote: > > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 03:43:37PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > > But pccard doesn't deal in terms of dev_t, but rather device_t. The > > > pccard bus system has no earthly clue what you just added to the > > > system. Plus, unless jlemon has been busy, the network drivers do not > > > add dev_t's. > > > > You rang? :-) > > > > Yes, -current has a dev_t for network devices, if that makes any difference. > > required or optional? Non-optional, but not invasive; this is done within if_attach(). See /dev/net* on a -current box. hydra[5:09pm]> ifconfig net3 lp0: flags=8810 mtu 1500 -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 17:18:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from espresso.q9media.com (espresso.q9media.com [216.254.138.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B41137B417 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mike@localhost) by espresso.q9media.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fAS1Hjv13439; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:17:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:17:45 -0500 From: Mike Barcroft To: Sheldon Hearn Cc: The Anarcat , freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C99 standard: stdint.h Message-ID: <20011127201745.A13067@espresso.q9media.com> References: <20011127183307.GB520@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <85636.1006886466@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <85636.1006886466@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za>; from sheldonh@starjuice.net on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 08:41:06PM +0200 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sheldon Hearn writes: > On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:33:08 EST, The Anarcat wrote: > > | I know we have sys/types.h and that we don't really *need* stdint.h, but > | shouldn't we include it anyways, just for standards compliance sake? > > Yes, and we do in -CURRENT. Allow it time to melt down to -STABLE. :-) There are a couple items that I would like completed before MFCing and , namely most of the new printf(3) and scanf(3) functionality. I maintain a project web page detailing the current tasks, [http://people.FreeBSD.org/~mike/c99/]. Best regards, Mike Barcroft To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 17:31:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from white.imgsrc.co.jp (ns.imgsrc.co.jp [210.226.20.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 659B037B416 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from black.imgsrc.co.jp (black.imgsrc.co.jp [2001:218:422:2:290:27ff:fe98:c0b7]) by white.imgsrc.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E27B24D29 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:31:43 +0900 (JST) Received: from waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp (waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp [2001:218:422:2:2d0:b7ff:fea0:d487]) by black.imgsrc.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D194D1401 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:31:42 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:31:41 +0900 Message-ID: <7mofln7kaq.wl@waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp> From: Jun Kuriyama To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Make localhost. and 127.IN-ADDR.ARPA. static file in named.conf User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.6.0 (Twist And Shout) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.3 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Unebigory=F2mae?=) APEL/10.3 Emacs/21.1 (i386--freebsd) MULE/5.0 (=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCOC1MWhsoQg==?=) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.3 - "Ushinoya") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is it acceptable to use static file for localhost. and 127.in-addr.arpa. domain in /etc/namedb, not providing make-localhost script? NetBSD have 127, localhost and loopback.v6 file in their repository for domains in local/loopback use. This will help administrators to set up named by skipping usual step (exec make-localhost script). -- Jun Kuriyama // IMG SRC, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Tue Nov 27 18:48:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from bsdone.bsdwins.com (www.bsdwins.com [192.58.184.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3A037B416; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jwd@localhost) by bsdone.bsdwins.com (8.11.6/8.11.0) id fAS2m3T16927; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:48:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jwd) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 21:48:03 -0500 From: "John W. De Boskey" To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Sheldon Hearn , The Anarcat , Mike Barcroft Subject: Re: C99 standard: stdint.h Message-ID: <20011127214803.A16836@bsdwins.com> References: <20011127183307.GB520@shall.anarcat.dyndns.org> <85636.1006886466@axl.seasidesoftware.co.za> <20011127201745.A13067@espresso.q9media.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011127201745.A13067@espresso.q9media.com>; from mike@FreeBSD.ORG on Tue, Nov 27, 2001 at 08:17:45PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Another small c99 related issue is va_copy(). I posted about this to -current a few weeks back and received zero feedback... Index: sys/i386/include/stdarg.h =================================================================== RCS file: /home/ncvs/src/sys/i386/include/stdarg.h,v retrieving revision 1.11 diff -u -r1.11 stdarg.h --- sys/i386/include/stdarg.h 19 Oct 2001 20:07:46 -0000 1.11 +++ sys/i386/include/stdarg.h 26 Oct 2001 22:33:21 -0000 @@ -55,6 +55,8 @@ #define va_arg(ap, type) \ (*(type *)((ap) += __va_size(type), (ap) - __va_size(type))) +#define va_copy(d,s) ((va_list)(d) = (va_list)(s)) + #define va_end(ap) #endif /* !_STDARG_H_ */ -John ----- Mike Barcroft's Original Message ----- > Sheldon Hearn writes: > > On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:33:08 EST, The Anarcat wrote: > > > > | I know we have sys/types.h and that we don't really *need* stdint.h, but > > | shouldn't we include it anyways, just for standards compliance sake? > > > > Yes, and we do in -CURRENT. Allow it time to melt down to -STABLE. :-) > > There are a couple items that I would like completed before MFCing > and , namely most of the new printf(3) and > scanf(3) functionality. I maintain a project web page detailing the > current tasks, [http://people.FreeBSD.org/~mike/c99/]. > > Best regards, > Mike Barcroft > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 3:33: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDC8837B417 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fASBWhn82603; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:32:43 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAS9sfu01505; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:54:41 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200111280954.fAS9sfu01505@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: Alexander Langer Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. References: <20011127203704.B14575@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> In-Reply-To: <20011127203704.B14575@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> ; from Alexander Langer "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:37:04 +0100." Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:54:41 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Thus spake Sheldon Hearn (sheldonh@starjuice.net): > > > If you've tested the startup and periodic scripts locally, I think it's > > fair to unleash it on -CURRENT and see if anyone bleeds. :-) > > IIRC, there was some unicode special char handling, that was better in > GNU sort and missing in BSD 4.4 sort. Check before please :) How? M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 3:33:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B2F37B41B; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 03:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fASBXDq82623; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:33:13 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fASAu2u03397; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:56:02 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200111281056.fASAu2u03397@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. References: <200111271532.fARFWG336259@green.bikeshed.org> In-Reply-To: <200111271532.fARFWG336259@green.bikeshed.org> ; from "Brian F. Feldman" "Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:32:15 EST." Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:56:02 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Does it support a superset of GNU sort features? At one point, I would have > gone really nuts if anyone took my sort -k away from me :) I dunnup about a true superset of GNU Sort, but it certainly has the right stuff when it comes to selecting keys. For those whe need GNU Sort, I can easily make a port. M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 4:53:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cheer.mahoroba.org (flets-f0022.kamome.or.jp [211.8.127.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A926237B417 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 04:53:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from peace.mahoroba.org (IDENT:vB5Zp8zIMPPi7MSgAxBElQWXTKpvlKixLKZZM1XmVQkXctN9Q8CSwph0wFOdArXK@peace.mahoroba.org [IPv6:2001:200:301:0:200:f8ff:fe05:3eae]) (user=ume mech=CRAM-MD5 bits=0) by cheer.mahoroba.org (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP/inet6 id fASCreCf049606 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:53:42 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from ume@mahoroba.org) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:53:40 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <20011128.215340.10289455.ume@mahoroba.org> To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Make localhost. and 127.IN-ADDR.ARPA. static file in named.conf From: Hajimu UMEMOTO In-Reply-To: <7mofln7kaq.wl@waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp> References: <7mofln7kaq.wl@waterblue.imgsrc.co.jp> X-PGP-Public-Key: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/publickey.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 0C 53 FC 5D D0 37 91 05 D0 B3 EF 36 9B 6A BC X-URL: http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT X-Mailer: xcite1.38> Mew version 2.1 on Emacs 21.1 / Mule 5.0 =?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjgtTFobKEIp?= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS-perl11-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, >>> Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:31:41 +0900, >>> Jun Kuriyama said: kuriyama> Is it acceptable to use static file for localhost. and kuriyama> 127.in-addr.arpa. domain in /etc/namedb, not providing make-localhost kuriyama> script? kuriyama> NetBSD have 127, localhost and loopback.v6 file in their repository kuriyama> for domains in local/loopback use. kuriyama> This will help administrators to set up named by skipping usual step kuriyama> (exec make-localhost script). I think it conforms to RFC1912 4.1 Boot file setup. -- Hajimu UMEMOTO @ Internet Mutual Aid Society Yokohama, Japan ume@mahoroba.org ume@bisd.hitachi.co.jp ume@{,jp.}FreeBSD.org http://www.imasy.org/~ume/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 6: 5:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7364B37B417 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 06:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (relay2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.3.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3-2) with ESMTP id fASE5a714167; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:05:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@kawoserv.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.180.1]) by r220-1.rz.RWTH-Aachen.DE (8.10.1/8.11.3/6) with ESMTP id fASE5ZW14156; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:05:35 +0100 (MET) Received: from fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (root@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.181.148]) by kawoserv.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16465; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:05:35 +0100 Received: (from alex@localhost) by fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de (8.11.3/8.11.3) id fASE5Y923577; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:05:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from alex) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:05:32 +0100 From: Alexander Langer To: Mark Murray Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011128150532.E19449@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> References: <20011127203704.B14575@fump.kawo2.rwth-aachen.de> <200111280954.fAS9sfu01505@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111280954.fAS9sfu01505@grimreaper.grondar.org>; from mark@grondar.za on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 09:54:41AM +0000 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 44 28 CA 4C 46 5B D3 A8 A8 E3 BA F3 4E 60 7D 7F X-PGP-at: finger alex@big.endian.de X-Verwirrung: Dieser Header dient der allgemeinen Verwirrung. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thus spake Mark Murray (mark@grondar.za): > > > If you've tested the startup and periodic scripts locally, I think it's > > > fair to unleash it on -CURRENT and see if anyone bleeds. :-) > > IIRC, there was some unicode special char handling, that was better in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ erm, I think I wanted to write "unicode AND special char" handling, e.g. Umlauts, IIRC. > > GNU sort and missing in BSD 4.4 sort. Check before please :) > How? Erm, no idea. Compare code? Sort some foreign text? Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 8:52:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29E937B41A for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fASGpei40508; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:51:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:51:39 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Matthew Jacob Cc: Peter Wemm , Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Matthew Jacob wrote: > > It would also be a place where a program could be called to respond to new > > nodes appearing in /dev for adjusting any permissions needed according > > to some sort of template system or something. (But it would be a mistake > > to mix the two things up at this point, as the permissions setter is prime > > bikeshed material. IMHO, provide the hooks first, then once we have the > > framework, then revisit the permissions). > > It seems to me wrong to do 'adjustments'. Either you have a model that > trusts drivers to do the right thing when the call make_dev, or you > don't. There are a couple of reasons why it would be desirable to allow devd (or devfsd, if you will) manage permissions. They include: (1) Avoid having device drivers and the kernel aware of specific userland uid assignments. (2) Avoid having device drivers know the system policy for accessing devices, such as cdrom drives, where you can imagine a variety of models. (3) Avoid having device drivers be aware of a "console policy", which allocates rights to a device based on login sessions. (4) Avoid having to modify drivers to learn about new security models (mandatory access control, et al) or make use of privilege calls (such as suser) on device open. Generally speaking, it seems desirable the devices would appear in /dev with conservative permissions, and then userland policy might adjust those permissions to be more liberal based on files in /etc, and so on. Encapsulating that policy in each device driver seems undesirable. It's not a question of trusting device drivers to do the right thing, it's a question of whether a device driver author can even have enough information about where the device is being used to make that decision. For example, you as a device driver shouldn't need to know that my workstation runs with a Biba hierarchal integrity policy, which prohibits access to /dev/pass* by the root user when the root user is running with a low integrity level, but that the root user at low integrity can access one of my scsi disks. That's something that can be addressed by using 0600 in make_dev, having the kernel assign a default label as part of instantiating the node, and that devfsd can then fix up by assigning appropriate labels on picking up the event from devfs. Ideally, devfsd would export a socket in /dev that would notify consumers of the arrival of devices *after* it was done processing, meaning you might want /dev/devfsctl # generated by kernel, read only by devfsd /dev/devfsevent # generated by devfsd, read by other consumers Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 8:55: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6612C37B41D for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 08:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fASGsni40605; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:54:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:54:49 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: "Ilmar S. Habibulin" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: ACL on device nodes (Re: Anybody working on devd?) In-Reply-To: <20011127034122.X6652-100000@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Probably. I had some initial patches around to do that, but they got caught up in generic object labeling code, which I need to put into p4. Unfortunately, Peter hasn't had a chance to export the trustedbsd p4 branches to cvsup10, as yet. Adding ACL support to devfs should be trivial; adding general labeling for mac labels, et al, is probably more challenging, and something I have funding to look at. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Ilmar S. Habibulin wrote: > > I wonder does it has any sense to include ACL support in DEVFS? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 9:36:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275FF37B422; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fASHZ5V36375; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:35:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Robert Watson Cc: Matthew Jacob , Peter Wemm , Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:51:39 EST." Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:35:04 +0100 Message-ID: <36373.1006968904@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Robert Watson writes: >On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Matthew Jacob wrote: > >> > It would also be a place where a program could be called to respond to new >> > nodes appearing in /dev for adjusting any permissions needed according >> > to some sort of template system or something. (But it would be a mistake >> > to mix the two things up at this point, as the permissions setter is prime >> > bikeshed material. IMHO, provide the hooks first, then once we have the >> > framework, then revisit the permissions). >> >> It seems to me wrong to do 'adjustments'. Either you have a model that >> trusts drivers to do the right thing when the call make_dev, or you >> don't. > >There are a couple of reasons why it would be desirable to allow devd (or >devfsd, if you will) manage permissions. They include: Let me jump ahead a bit in the discussion here. There are a number of questions to answer when a new device node appears, the main two are: 1. What mode/owner/group should it have. 2. Should it appear in a particular devfs mount instance (ie: a jail) While it may sound simple to make everything start out 0/0/0 and have devd fix it up, it isn't simple once you start to implement it because now you have devices in two states (those only devd can see and the real ones). How do you recognize the authorized "devd" process from other processes ? What about small/picobsd systems ? My preferred solution therefore, is to add a rule-set facility to devfs, so that for each mount-point, the policy can be expressed in the kernel, by userland, if the defaults are not wanted. I would imagine the rules [cw]ould look like this: class=disk owner=root group=wheel mode=0600 # nonstandard everything name=uscanner* mode=666 chown chmod=0600 # nonstandard mode. On open chown to opening # process and mode 0600 name=pty* hide # we don't want ptys in this jail. In practice it will probably be devd which manages these lists. The advantage to this scheme is that devd is not mandatory for small systems, yet the policy is configurable. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 9:41: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo.feral.com [192.67.166.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B1F37B41F; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.feral.com (mjacob@mailhost.feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by beppo.feral.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fASHf0W36655; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:41:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:41:00 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob X-Sender: mjacob@beppo Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Robert Watson Cc: Peter Wemm , Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Generally speaking, it seems desirable the devices would appear in /dev > with conservative permissions, and then userland policy might adjust those > permissions to be more liberal based on files in /etc, and so on. I think that if this is the case, there's no point in device drivers knowing about permissions at all, and shouldn't be even *allowed* to set them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 9:46:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52D437B416; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:46:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fASHjAV36657; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:45:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: Robert Watson , Peter Wemm , Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:41:00 PST." Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:45:10 +0100 Message-ID: <36655.1006969510@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Matthew Jacob writes: >> Generally speaking, it seems desirable the devices would appear in /dev >> with conservative permissions, and then userland policy might adjust those >> permissions to be more liberal based on files in /etc, and so on. > >I think that if this is the case, there's no point in device drivers knowing >about permissions at all, and shouldn't be even *allowed* to set them. Well, true in the theoretical sense, but it makes a lot of sense for picobsd like systems that they do. As long as the default policy is (ie: becomes) configurable (see my other email), it is not harmful that the drivers gives a first stab at mode/owner/group. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 9:56:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778DF37B416 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fASHtfi43212; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:55:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:55:41 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: mjacob@feral.com, Peter Wemm , Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <36655.1006969510@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Matthew Jacob writes: > >> Generally speaking, it seems desirable the devices would appear in /dev > >> with conservative permissions, and then userland policy might adjust those > >> permissions to be more liberal based on files in /etc, and so on. > > > >I think that if this is the case, there's no point in device drivers knowing > >about permissions at all, and shouldn't be even *allowed* to set them. > > Well, true in the theoretical sense, but it makes a lot of sense for > picobsd like systems that they do. > > As long as the default policy is (ie: becomes) configurable (see my > other email), it is not harmful that the drivers gives a first stab at > mode/owner/group. I'm not opposed to a 'first stab', but in the case of picobsd, I suspect 0/0 0600 would be just fine. I think that this "conservative policy" viewpoint actually makes a fair amount of sense: we start up init with a high level of privilege, and start up devices protected tightly, but accessible via privilege (which init has). The boot process can open up protections, as can devd, as it sees fit. What I would like to avoid is kernel code knowing much about non-0 uids and gids. When dealing with NFS and multiple platforms, you almost immediately run into different use of those other uids and gids. In general, with the exception of device owner initialization, the kernel knows nothing about uids except for 0 and VNONVAL. In the device code, we find a lot of #define's that teach device drivers things that are usually defined in the password file. One thing that might be worth considering, if we adopted this approach, would be having rc.devfs (or just devfsd) set up initial permissions for a variety of objects in a nice configurable way: chown root:kmem /dev/kmem /dev/mem chmod 0640 /dev/kmem /dev/mem chmod 0666 /dev/null ... Regarding the multiple instantiation--it does raise an interesting question. Should the protections be on the device "objects" or on the file system representations? While my leaning is towards "objects", I can see arguments that might suggest other possibilities. Might depend a little on what you want to protect: I personally don't mind having all devices listed in all jails, as long as protections on jails are "done right". But the ability to use purely namespace to restrict access to devices in jail is a cute (and useful) trick, involving low cost and high benefit. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 10: 0:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4530537B41D; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:00:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fASHwlV37074; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:58:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Robert Watson Cc: mjacob@feral.com, Peter Wemm , Dima Dorfman , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:55:41 EST." Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:58:47 +0100 Message-ID: <37072.1006970327@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Robert Watson writes: >I'm not opposed to a 'first stab', but in the case of picobsd, I suspect >0/0 0600 would be just fine. I think that this "conservative policy" >viewpoint actually makes a fair amount of sense: we start up init with a >high level of privilege, and start up devices protected tightly, but >accessible via privilege (which init has). Well, we use the same as we had in MAKEDEV for "conservative". > What I would like to avoid is >kernel code knowing much about non-0 uids and gids. I agree this is not nice, but given the rule-system I proposed this would be a non-issue. >When dealing with NFS >and multiple platforms, you almost immediately run into different use of >those other uids and gids. Well, in a devfs context this is a non-issue since devices are local in NFS. >In general, with the exception of device owner >initialization, the kernel knows nothing about uids except for 0 and >VNONVAL. In the device code, we find a lot of #define's that teach device >drivers things that are usually defined in the password file. Please read my email about the proposal for rules, that would move this back to the password file. >Regarding the multiple instantiation--it does raise an interesting >question. Should the protections be on the device "objects" or on the >file system representations? Nope, it is on the file system representation. No doubt about that from the author of jail. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 10: 5:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B40A37B417 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fASI3wi43726; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:03:59 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:03:58 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Garrett Wollman , mjacob@feral.com, arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <20011127114133.S643@tao.org.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Josef Karthauser wrote: > Devices that come and go can come and go quickly. For instance a USB > sync'd palmpilot only appears as a usb device once the hotsync button > has been pressed, and disappears once the sync process has finished. A > userland process that wants to sync has to wait until it sees the usb > device node appear to know that it is there (unless usbd can fire the > process off at enumeration time). If a userland process pokes with the > node permissions sometime after the device node appears, there's a race > between the application and the userland devd. Sometimes the sync will > succeed, sometimes it will fail due to wrong dev node permissions. > > For this reason I'd prefer the devnode to be created with the right > permissions in the first place. Phk was talking about loading > user/group policies into the kernel so that make_dev can use them whilst > creating the node. Note that the race can be fixed by modifying your source of events for "the common application". Hence my recommendation (made after your post, as I caught up) that devd/devfsd feed off of a /dev/somethinginparticular, and that they generate event information on /dev/somethingmoregeneral, giving the daemon an opportunity to do whatever it wants before consumers leap for it, or rather, allowing consumers to wait for a formal notification that the device is ready before using it. Note that if you were processing new serial devices (usb ones, say) using stty before use, you'd have similar requirements. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 10:23:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from beppo.feral.com (beppo.feral.com [192.67.166.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC6F37B417 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.feral.com (mjacob@mailhost.feral.com [192.67.166.1]) by beppo.feral.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fASINeW90495; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:23:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:23:40 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Jacob X-Sender: mjacob@beppo Reply-To: mjacob@feral.com To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: <36655.1006969510@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Matthew Jacob writes: > >> Generally speaking, it seems desirable the devices would appear in /dev > >> with conservative permissions, and then userland policy might adjust those > >> permissions to be more liberal based on files in /etc, and so on. > > > >I think that if this is the case, there's no point in device drivers knowing > >about permissions at all, and shouldn't be even *allowed* to set them. > > Well, true in the theoretical sense, but it makes a lot of sense > for picobsd like systems that they do. > > As long as the default policy is (ie: becomes) configurable (see > my other email), it is not harmful that the drivers gives a first > stab at mode/owner/group. There's a race between some joblow driver setting completely loose permissions and devd setting the policy based ones. This is a security hole. This is what I meant by "either you trust the driver or you don't". The consensus here is that "we don't". Therefore, internally make_dev uses 0/0 600 as default- not settable by driver. The default policy for picobsd would be 666 I assume. -matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 10:43: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAAC37B417 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:42:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fASIfZV38093; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:41:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: mjacob@feral.com Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:23:40 PST." Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:41:35 +0100 Message-ID: <38091.1006972895@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Matthew Jacob writes: > >There's a race between some joblow driver setting completely loose permissions >and devd setting the policy based ones. This is a security hole. This is what >I meant by "either you trust the driver or you don't". The consensus here is >that "we don't". > >Therefore, internally make_dev uses 0/0 600 as default- not settable by >driver. The default policy for picobsd would be 666 I assume. Guys, Witht rules system I'm proposing you can have "any of the above" if you want. No matter which single one we choose, it is inadequate for one or more of the other cases. It needs to be possible to specify a policy and the default policy if you don't do that need to be sensible. If anyone has a better suggestion how to express the policy than by sticking rules like I proposed into the kernel from a userland program, I'm all ears... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 10:44:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C2D37B419; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fASIhFV38119; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:43:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Robert Watson Cc: Josef Karthauser , Garrett Wollman , mjacob@feral.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 13:03:58 EST." Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:43:15 +0100 Message-ID: <38117.1006972995@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Robert Watson writes: >Note that the race can be fixed by modifying your source of events for >"the common application". Hence my recommendation (made after your post, >as I caught up) that devd/devfsd feed off of a /dev/somethinginparticular, >and that they generate event information on /dev/somethingmoregeneral, >[...] And where do you want to run the devd for jails ? Inside the jail ? Do you really want to spend a process per jail to be able to open a PTY in the jail ? It doesn't scale... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 12:26: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from wellington.cnchost.com (wellington.concentric.net [207.155.252.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6485037B405 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from bitblocks.com (adsl-209-204-185-216.sonic.net [209.204.185.216]) by wellington.cnchost.com id PAA03173; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:25:39 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <200111282025.PAA03173@wellington.cnchost.com> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: mjacob@feral.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:41:35 +0100." <38091.1006972895@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:25:38 -0800 From: Bakul Shah Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >There's a race between some joblow driver setting completely loose permissions > >and devd setting the policy based ones. This is a security hole. This is what > >I meant by "either you trust the driver or you don't". The consensus here is > >that "we don't". > > > >Therefore, internally make_dev uses 0/0 600 as default- not settable by > >driver. The default policy for picobsd would be 666 I assume. > > Guys, > > Witht rules system I'm proposing you can have "any of the above" > if you want. > > No matter which single one we choose, it is inadequate for one or > more of the other cases. > > It needs to be possible to specify a policy and the default policy > if you don't do that need to be sensible. > > If anyone has a better suggestion how to express the policy than > by sticking rules like I proposed into the kernel from a userland > program, I'm all ears... May be device nodes should be created by a user process, not any kernel entity, so that the process can implement any policy it wants. This is what we did 20 years back (at Fortune Systems) and I still prefer it. A syscall queried each device driver which returned a list of supported canonical device names and major+minor for each (IIRC, a printf string like "tty%d" and a range of acceptable numbers). A user program run at boot time created the actual indoes, create links (e.g. cuaa0 for ttyd0), etc. Back then devices only appeared at boot time so this was good enough. Now I'd probably create a notification facility accessed via a socket or something (like the one for route add/change/deletes). A daemon (devd?) can be notified of appearance/disappearance events of devices and create/delete appropriate device nodes as well as perform any auxiliary actions such as automounting/dismounting. I believe such a daemon can be taught to create the right nodes for any jail (and no it doesn't have to run in one) assuming it is told where each jail's devices live. You can also start devd in a jail if you wish since any number of processes can listen for device events. At my last company we needed something similar -- depending on which io cards were plugged in the router we needed to create different kinds of and number of network interfaces (the actual numbers were far higher than your typical freebsd system). We then needed to download firmware on certain boards + we wanted each properly working interface to be automatically configured in a particular way. We also needed to `watch' all IO cards, power supplies, fans and backplanes to handle any failure and apply appropriate switch over. We certainly did not want the kernel to directly deal with all this mess. Even the daemon watching device events did not do it all -- it called on other programs as necessary. So I think a user level devd + a device change notification scheme makes a lot of sense compared to sticking policy in the kernel. FWIW. -- bakul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 12:39:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B7F37B417 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fASKcBV40213; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:38:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Bakul Shah Cc: mjacob@feral.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:25:38 PST." <200111282025.PAA03173@wellington.cnchost.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:38:11 +0100 Message-ID: <40211.1006979891@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200111282025.PAA03173@wellington.cnchost.com>, Bakul Shah writes: >May be device nodes should be created by a user process, not >any kernel entity, so that the process can implement any >policy it wants. > [...] This is what I call "DEVFS by simulation", and it has many drawbacks: 1. Complexity. This is actually more code to write and less intuitive to document than doing a DEVFS. 2. Functionality. This doesn't work on a R/O root filesystem or on a filesystem which does not implement device nodes. 3. POLA. If you lack the device node for your root disk, or if your root filesystem is damaged so you cannot remount it RW, you are in a sticky widget: your daemon cannot create device nodes you may need to recover from the mess. 4. JAILS. This almost invariably will cost you a process per jail, something I am trying very hard to avoid. 5. Efficiency. Opening a PTY now needs at least 4 context switches. etc etc. >So I think a user level devd + a device change notification >scheme makes a lot of sense compared to sticking policy in >the kernel. I am trying not to put policy in the kernel (or in the system at all for that matter), what I am proposing is a way to enforce whatever policy the admin wants. For reasons of code complexity it makes sense to do this enforcement in the kernel, rather than add a layer of complexity by sending notices out into userland and back into the kernel before the nodes can be created. I have a paper about all of this for BSDcon2002, but it would be bad style for me to publish it before the conference, so you will have to wait until feb2002 to read it. Sorry. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 15:12: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mass.dis.org (mass.dis.org [216.240.45.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C893437B419 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mass.dis.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mass.dis.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fASNFrA04958; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:15:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msmith@mass.dis.org) Message-Id: <200111282315.fASNFrA04958@mass.dis.org> To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Message from Poul-Henning Kamp of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:41:35 +0100." <38091.1006972895@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:15:53 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > If anyone has a better suggestion how to express the policy than > by sticking rules like I proposed into the kernel from a userland > program, I'm all ears... Like I proposed well over a year ago? 8) No, rules are the way to go, with a simple default hardcoded into the kernel and an arbitrary interface for loading them (whether via a daemon or whatever). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 19:24:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D44037B416; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id fAT3OLo26606; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:24:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:24:21 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: Mark Murray Cc: "Brian F. Feldman" , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011128192421.A26522@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <200111271532.fARFWG336259@green.bikeshed.org> <200111281056.fASAu2u03397@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111281056.fASAu2u03397@grimreaper.grondar.org>; from mark@grondar.za on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:56:02AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:56:02AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > For those whe need GNU Sort, I can easily make a port. Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really leave things alone. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 19:45:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from green.bikeshed.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1151937B417; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by green.bikeshed.org (8.11.4/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fAT3jKB54798; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:45:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green@green.bikeshed.org) Message-Id: <200111290345.fAT3jKB54798@green.bikeshed.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Mark Murray , "Brian F. Feldman" , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:24:21 PST." <20011128192421.A26522@dragon.nuxi.com> From: "Brian F. Feldman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:45:19 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "David O'Brien" wrote: > On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:56:02AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > > > For those whe need GNU Sort, I can easily make a port. > > Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence > yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really > leave things alone. They both seem to sort ja_JP.EUC in the order I'd expect them to (the same way)... Those are the only two environments I use. -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Wed Nov 28 23:43:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750DE37B417; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAT7fqV52290; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:41:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: Mike Smith Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:15:53 PST." <200111282315.fASNFrA04958@mass.dis.org> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:41:52 +0100 Message-ID: <52288.1007019712@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <200111282315.fASNFrA04958@mass.dis.org>, Mike Smith writes: >> >> If anyone has a better suggestion how to express the policy than >> by sticking rules like I proposed into the kernel from a userland >> program, I'm all ears... > >Like I proposed well over a year ago? 8) Yeah, I remember :-) Although you are not the first person to propose it to me, that honour goes to Billie Alsup at TFS way back in '96. Only recently have I come to accept it as the least evil option. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 2:48:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A800A37B41B; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fATAmUd31389; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:48:30 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fATAeBu13122; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:40:11 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200111291040.fATAeBu13122@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. References: <20011128192421.A26522@dragon.nuxi.com> In-Reply-To: <20011128192421.A26522@dragon.nuxi.com> ; from "David O'Brien" "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:24:21 PST." Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:40:11 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:56:02AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > > > For those whe need GNU Sort, I can easily make a port. > > Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence > yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really > leave things alone. Nobody has (or can?) tell me what that support actually is. I figure that I'm right with 99% odds if it just comes down to being able to specify sort order with LOCALE/I18N stuff. I also suspect (with 99% odds) that Andrey can insert this trivially. M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 2:49: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B9C137B505; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 02:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fATAmn031406; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:48:49 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fATAgvu13138; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:42:57 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200111291042.fATAgvu13138@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. References: <200111290345.fAT3jKB54798@green.bikeshed.org> In-Reply-To: <200111290345.fAT3jKB54798@green.bikeshed.org> ; from "Brian F. Feldman" "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:45:19 EST." Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:42:57 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence > > yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really > > leave things alone. > > They both seem to sort ja_JP.EUC in the order I'd expect them to (the same > way)... Those are the only two environments I use. Good to hear! Any other locales, folks? M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 7:31:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F32837B417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id fATFVb227422; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:31:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:31:37 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011129073137.B27328@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011128192421.A26522@dragon.nuxi.com> <200111290345.fAT3jKB54798@green.bikeshed.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111290345.fAT3jKB54798@green.bikeshed.org>; from green@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:45:19PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:45:19PM -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > "David O'Brien" wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:56:02AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > > > > > For those whe need GNU Sort, I can easily make a port. > > > > Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence > > yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really > > leave things alone. > > They both seem to sort ja_JP.EUC in the order I'd expect them to (the same > way)... Those are the only two environments I use. That is probably a suffient test. I would imagine if .jp is handled fine, every thing else can be. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 7:57:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from cypherpunks.cryptohill.net (sub-168ip36.carats.net [216.152.168.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B04937B42A; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from jeroen (sub-168ip56.carats.net [216.152.168.56]) by cypherpunks.cryptohill.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFE571C8F7; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:57:28 -0400 (AST) From: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" To: "'Poul-Henning Kamp'" , "'Robert Watson'" Cc: "'Josef Karthauser'" , "'Garrett Wollman'" , , Subject: RE: Anybody working on devd? Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:57:27 -0400 Message-ID: <001401c178ee$8b6d7300$38a898d8@cryptohill.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 In-Reply-To: <38117.1006972995@critter.freebsd.dk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >And where do you want to run the devd for jails ? Inside the > jail ? I assumed that Robert was aiming at a single devd for the whole system. Here is how I imagined it would work: There seems to be a parent-child relationship between the host and the various jail devfs instances. The devfs instance in a jail contains a subset of the nodes in the host (parent) devfs. Now if each jail devfs has as a parent the hosts devfs and the host is its own parent, we have each devfs instance put a control node (/dev/devfsctl) in its parent. Thus the host devfs would end up containing a series of /dev/devfsctl* nodes controlling all devfs instances on the machine and a single devd would open those and control every devfs. Each devfs would have a local /dev/devfsevent node that clients can listen to to be notified about device arrival and removal. Another thought was that each jail devfs could show up in a directory on the main devfs: /dev/ad0s1a /dev/ad0s1c /dev/ad0s1e /dev/ttya /dev/ttyb /dev/jail0/ttyb /dev/jail0/ad0s1e /dev/jail1/ttyb This would in fact allow for easy management of the jail devfs. Maybe the jails could be controlled with a device node as well: /dev/jail0.ctl /dev/jail0/ttyb /dev/jail0/ad0s1e /dev/jail1.ctl /dev/jail1/ttyb Whether this is possible or not I don't know. But it is what I imagined from Robert's mails... Cheers, Jeroen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 8: 6:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 007B437B43E; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fATG6Hn08319; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:06:17 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:06:16 +0300 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "David O'Brien" Cc: "Brian F. Feldman" , Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011129160616.GB8233@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20011128192421.A26522@dragon.nuxi.com> <200111290345.fAT3jKB54798@green.bikeshed.org> <20011129073137.B27328@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011129073137.B27328@dragon.nuxi.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:31:37 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:45:19PM -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > > "David O'Brien" wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:56:02AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > > > > > > > For those whe need GNU Sort, I can easily make a port. > > > > > > Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence > > > yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really > > > leave things alone. > > > > They both seem to sort ja_JP.EUC in the order I'd expect them to (the same > > way)... Those are the only two environments I use. > > That is probably a suffient test. I would imagine if .jp is handled > fine, every thing else can be. Just opposite. If .jp is handled fine, it means nothing. We don't support collation for multi-byte encoding. You test missing feature in that case. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 8: 8:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from green.bikeshed.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B206037B41E; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by green.bikeshed.org (8.11.4/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fATG8Ze60644; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:08:36 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green@green.bikeshed.org) Message-Id: <200111291608.fATG8Ze60644@green.bikeshed.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: "David O'Brien" , Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. In-Reply-To: Message from "Andrey A. Chernov" of "Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:06:16 +0300." <20011129160616.GB8233@nagual.pp.ru> From: "Brian F. Feldman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:08:35 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Andrey A. Chernov" wrote: > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:31:37 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:45:19PM -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > > > "David O'Brien" wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 10:56:02AM +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > > > > > > > > > For those whe need GNU Sort, I can easily make a port. > > > > > > > > Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence > > > > yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really > > > > leave things alone. > > > > > > They both seem to sort ja_JP.EUC in the order I'd expect them to (the same > > > way)... Those are the only two environments I use. > > > > That is probably a suffient test. I would imagine if .jp is handled > > fine, every thing else can be. > > Just opposite. If .jp is handled fine, it means nothing. We don't support > collation for multi-byte encoding. You test missing feature in that case. In that case, they're both broken just enough to work perfectly well for me so I will support either :-) -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 8:13:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F6C37B417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:13:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fATGDOv08417; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:13:24 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:13:23 +0300 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: "David O'Brien" , Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011129161322.GC8233@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20011129160616.GB8233@nagual.pp.ru> <200111291608.fATG8Ze60644@green.bikeshed.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200111291608.fATG8Ze60644@green.bikeshed.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 11:08:35 -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > > Just opposite. If .jp is handled fine, it means nothing. We don't support > > collation for multi-byte encoding. You test missing feature in that case. > > In that case, they're both broken just enough to work perfectly well for me > so I will support either :-) FYI: GNU sort not support multi-byte encodings as designed and sort them always as signle-byte ones. Don't know about BSD sort. If you want sufficient test for single-byte sorting & collation, try to use ru_RU.KOI8-R encoding. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 8:19:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from dragon.nuxi.com (trang.nuxi.com [66.92.13.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F80637B50C; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by dragon.nuxi.com (8.11.6/8.11.1) id fATGJ2f28364; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:19:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:19:01 -0800 From: "David O'Brien" To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: "Brian F. Feldman" , Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011129081901.B28000@dragon.nuxi.com> Reply-To: obrien@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011129160616.GB8233@nagual.pp.ru> <200111291608.fATG8Ze60644@green.bikeshed.org> <20011129161322.GC8233@nagual.pp.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011129161322.GC8233@nagual.pp.ru>; from ache@nagual.pp.ru on Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:13:23PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT Organization: The NUXI BSD group X-Pgp-Rsa-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Rsa-Keyid: 1024/34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:13:23PM +0300, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > If you want sufficient test for single-byte sorting & collation, try to > use ru_RU.KOI8-R encoding. I am not sure most of us could do that well. Can you test BSD sort and report back? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 8:28: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9626E37B439; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fATGRts08639; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:27:56 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:27:52 +0300 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "David O'Brien" Cc: "Brian F. Feldman" , Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011129162751.GD8233@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20011129160616.GB8233@nagual.pp.ru> <200111291608.fATG8Ze60644@green.bikeshed.org> <20011129161322.GC8233@nagual.pp.ru> <20011129081901.B28000@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011129081901.B28000@dragon.nuxi.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 08:19:01 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:13:23PM +0300, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > > If you want sufficient test for single-byte sorting & collation, try to > > use ru_RU.KOI8-R encoding. > > I am not sure most of us could do that well. Can you test BSD sort and > report back? I don't have it in hand. The test is simple: 1) Create the file with single character per line from \000 to \377 2) Sort it using LC_CTYPE=ru_RU.KOI8-R gnu_sort < file (I mean _patched_ GNU sort we currently have in sources, not original one which not support collation) 3) Sort it using LC_CTYPE=ru_RU.KOI8-R bsd_sort < file 4) Compare results. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 8:48: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from green.bikeshed.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC5937B41A; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 08:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by green.bikeshed.org (8.11.4/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fATGlXK61006; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:47:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green@green.bikeshed.org) Message-Id: <200111291647.fATGlXK61006@green.bikeshed.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: "David O'Brien" , "Brian F. Feldman" , Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:27:52 +0300." <20011129162751.GD8233@nagual.pp.ru> From: "Brian F. Feldman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:47:33 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Andrey A. Chernov" wrote: > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 08:19:01 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 07:13:23PM +0300, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: > > > If you want sufficient test for single-byte sorting & collation, tr= y to > > > use ru_RU.KOI8-R encoding. > > = > > I am not sure most of us could do that well. Can you test BSD sort a= nd > > report back? > = > I don't have it in hand. = > = > The test is simple: > = > 1) Create the file with single character per line from \000 to \377 > = > 2) Sort it using = > LC_CTYPE=3Dru_RU.KOI8-R gnu_sort < file > (I mean _patched_ GNU sort we currently have in sources, not original = > one which not support collation) > = > 3) Sort it using = > LC_CTYPE=3Dru_RU.KOI8-R bsd_sort < file > = > 4) Compare results. {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ ruby File.open('f', 'w') {|f| 1.upto(255) {|n| f.puts(n.chr) if n.chr !~ /^[[:cntrl:]]/ } } {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ ls -l f -rw-r--r-- 1 green green 446 29 =CE=CF=D1 11:46 f {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ md5 f MD5 (f) =3D 60369ee3857999b452c560c7a8256734 {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ sort f | md5 3c31168a9159c2df8d8ce56370579c58 {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ ./sort f | md5 60369ee3857999b452c560c7a8256734 -- = Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 12: 1:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.inka.de (quechua.inka.de [212.227.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A9C37B405 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:01:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from kemoauc.mips.inka.de (uucp@) by mail.inka.de with local-bsmtp id 169XN0-0004rd-00; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:01:18 +0100 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by kemoauc.mips.inka.de (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fATIYKW54302 for freebsd-arch@freebsd.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:34:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 18:34:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <9u5v3c$1l0l$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> References: <200111271532.fARFWG336259@green.bikeshed.org> <200111281056.fASAu2u03397@grimreaper.grondar.org> <20011128192421.A26522@dragon.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Originator: naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David O'Brien wrote: > Native non-English language may need it. So unless you can convence > yourself 4.4BSD will work well in today's environment, I would really > leave things alone. Well, that's easy enough to check. Our GNU sort does this: $ cat foo blaa blab blaä blac blaz bla~ $ LANG=de_DE.ISO8859-1 sort foo blaa blaä blab blac blaz bla~ $ LANG=sv_SE.ISO8859-1 sort foo blaa blab blac blaz blaä bla~ Does the 4.4BSD-derived sort agree? Where can we fetch it, anyway? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 12:54:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.86.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDD337B405; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fATKqf903005; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:52:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) To: "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" Cc: "'Robert Watson'" , "'Josef Karthauser'" , "'Garrett Wollman'" , mjacob@feral.com, arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anybody working on devd? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 29 Nov 2001 11:57:27 -0400." <001401c178ee$8b6d7300$38a898d8@cryptohill.net> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:52:41 +0100 Message-ID: <3003.1007067161@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message <001401c178ee$8b6d7300$38a898d8@cryptohill.net>, "Jeroen C. van Geld eren" writes: >>And where do you want to run the devd for jails ? Inside the >> jail ? > >I assumed that Robert was aiming at a single devd for the whole >system. Here is how I imagined it would work: While technically possible, it would be an administrative liability I think. That being said, since I am not going to write devd, I will not try to impose my view on things purely internal to its design. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk@FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Thu Nov 29 15:52:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D9637B41B; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 15:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fATNqXP12735; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:52:33 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:52:32 +0300 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: "David O'Brien" , Mark Murray , Sheldon Hearn , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011129235232.GA12700@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20011129162751.GD8233@nagual.pp.ru> <200111291647.fATGlXK61006@green.bikeshed.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200111291647.fATGlXK61006@green.bikeshed.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 11:47:33 -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ sort f | md5 > 3c31168a9159c2df8d8ce56370579c58 > {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ ./sort f | md5 > 60369ee3857999b452c560c7a8256734 And it means that bsd sort not support collate. BTW, there is much simpler way exist: grep strcoll in BSD sort sources. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Nov 30 8:27:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D05C137B419 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fAUGQns14897; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:26:49 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fAUGML095766; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:22:21 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200111301622.fAUGML095766@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. References: <20011129235232.GA12700@nagual.pp.ru> In-Reply-To: <20011129235232.GA12700@nagual.pp.ru> ; from "Andrey A. Chernov" "Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:52:32 +0300." Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:22:21 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 11:47:33 -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > > {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ sort f | md5 > > 3c31168a9159c2df8d8ce56370579c58 > > {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ ./sort f | md5 > > 60369ee3857999b452c560c7a8256734 > > And it means that bsd sort not support collate. > > BTW, there is much simpler way exist: grep strcoll in BSD sort sources. Andrey, Do you think you would be able to engineer proper i18n support into this BSD sort if I were to import it? M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Nov 30 8:44:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from green.bikeshed.org (freefall.FreeBSD.org [216.136.204.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF5A37B416; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:44:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by green.bikeshed.org (8.11.4/8.11.1) with ESMTP id fAUGiW073421; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:44:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from green@green.bikeshed.org) Message-Id: <200111301644.fAUGiW073421@green.bikeshed.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Mark Murray Cc: "Andrey A. Chernov" , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. In-Reply-To: Message from Mark Murray of "Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:22:21 GMT." <200111301622.fAUGML095766@grimreaper.grondar.org> From: "Brian F. Feldman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:44:32 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Murray wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 11:47:33 -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > > > {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ sort f | md5 > > > 3c31168a9159c2df8d8ce56370579c58 > > > {"/home/green/netbsd-sort/basesrc/usr.bin/sort"}$ ./sort f | md5 > > > 60369ee3857999b452c560c7a8256734 > > > > And it means that bsd sort not support collate. > > > > BTW, there is much simpler way exist: grep strcoll in BSD sort sources. > > Andrey, > > Do you think you would be able to engineer proper i18n support into > this BSD sort if I were to import it? What would be the point of this proper "i18n" support anyway if it wouldn't support some of the most common locales, just like GNU sort doesn't support them now??? Andrey, you make me seriously wonder why I should care about the i18n "support" currently in GNU sort now. What would keeping GNU sort instead of switching to BSD sort buy me? I say we switch to BSD sort immediately, get rid of more crappy GNU code, and if we want to say that our sort supports i18n we can ACTUALLY MAKE IT SUPPORT I18N not some half-assed "this is internationalized where 'international' means 'probably works for some latin languages, and stuff'". -- Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! / green@FreeBSD.org `------------------------------' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Nov 30 8:56:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from h132-197-179-27.gte.com (h132-197-179-27.gte.com [132.197.179.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5211837B417 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ak03@localhost) by h132-197-179-27.gte.com (8.11.6/8.11.4) id fAUGufE00689 for arch@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:56:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ak03) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.5.1 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200111301644.fAUGiW073421@green.bikeshed.org> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:56:40 -0500 (EST) Organization: Verizon Laboratories Inc. From: "Alexander N. Kabaev" To: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Switching to BSD sort will not buy anything, but there are other people who happen to have Russian as their native language and current half-assed locale support in GNU sort is still much better for them than no locale support whatsoever. They will lose, you will gain nothing - this looks like the total outcome of the change will be negative. Just my $0.2 On 30-Nov-2001 Brian F. Feldman wrote: > Mark Murray wrote: > What would be the point of this proper "i18n" support anyway if it > wouldn't > support some of the most common locales, just like GNU sort doesn't > support > them now??? Andrey, you make me seriously wonder why I should care > about > the i18n "support" currently in GNU sort now. What would keeping GNU > sort > instead of switching to BSD sort buy me? > > I say we switch to BSD sort immediately, get rid of more crappy GNU > code, > and if we want to say that our sort supports i18n we can ACTUALLY > MAKE IT > SUPPORT I18N not some half-assed "this is internationalized where > 'international' means 'probably works for some latin languages, and > stuff'". > > -- > Brian Fundakowski Feldman \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! > / > green@FreeBSD.org > `------------------------------' > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message -------------------------------------------- E-Mail: Alexander N. Kabaev Date: 30-Nov-2001 Time: 11:51:01 -------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Nov 30 17:12: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16DD837B416; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB11Bmb28697; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:11:48 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:11:45 +0300 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: "Brian F. Feldman" Cc: Mark Murray , arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011201011143.GD28257@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200111301622.fAUGML095766@grimreaper.grondar.org> <200111301644.fAUGiW073421@green.bikeshed.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200111301644.fAUGiW073421@green.bikeshed.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 11:44:32 -0500, Brian F. Feldman wrote: > the i18n "support" currently in GNU sort now. What would keeping GNU sort > instead of switching to BSD sort buy me? The l10n of GNU sort is already done (by me). The l10n of BSD sort not yet. So keeping GNU sort buy you no additional l10n work required from my side. > I say we switch to BSD sort immediately, get rid of more crappy GNU code, > and if we want to say that our sort supports i18n we can ACTUALLY MAKE IT > SUPPORT I18N not some half-assed "this is internationalized where > 'international' means 'probably works for some latin languages, and stuff'". It seems you know very little about i18n. 1) What happens with sort called l10n. 2) What you descrive as half-assed is most common situation in l10n at whole, multi-byte l10n is very different subject from single-byte l10n. Currently we have single-byte l10n of GNU sort modulo limitations comes from its byte-per-byte algorithm which not allows collation sequences longer than one char. I don't see BSD sort sources yet, but don't think it will be different in that area. -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Fri Nov 30 17:14:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from nagual.pp.ru (pobrecita.freebsd.ru [194.87.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E60B37B405 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from ache@localhost) by nagual.pp.ru (8.11.6/8.11.6) id fB11EhD28748; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:14:43 +0300 (MSK) (envelope-from ache) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 04:14:39 +0300 From: "Andrey A. Chernov" To: Mark Murray Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. Message-ID: <20011201011438.GE28257@nagual.pp.ru> References: <20011129235232.GA12700@nagual.pp.ru> <200111301622.fAUGML095766@grimreaper.grondar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200111301622.fAUGML095766@grimreaper.grondar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.23.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 16:22:21 +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > Do you think you would be able to engineer proper i18n support into > this BSD sort if I were to import it? Where I can look at the its latest sources? NetBSD? -- Andrey A. Chernov http://ache.pp.ru/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Dec 1 2:37:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (storm.FreeBSD.org.uk [194.242.139.170]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9A437B419 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 02:37:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by storm.FreeBSD.org.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with UUCP id fB1AawE62603; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:36:58 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grimreaper.grondar.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fB1A8s028305; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 10:08:54 GMT (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <200112011008.fB1A8s028305@grimreaper.grondar.org> To: "Andrey A. Chernov" Cc: arch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD sort vs GNU sort. References: <20011201011438.GE28257@nagual.pp.ru> In-Reply-To: <20011201011438.GE28257@nagual.pp.ru> ; from "Andrey A. Chernov" "Sat, 01 Dec 2001 04:14:39 +0300." Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:08:53 +0000 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 16:22:21 +0000, Mark Murray wrote: > > > > Do you think you would be able to engineer proper i18n support into > > this BSD sort if I were to import it? > > Where I can look at the its latest sources? NetBSD? Yes. I can get a copy somewhere if you need me to. M -- o Mark Murray \_ FreeBSD Services Limited O.\_ Warning: this .sig is umop ap!sdn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Dec 1 20:27:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44B337B416 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id fB24RUi11903 for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:27:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:27:30 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Enabling Softupdates in default install on -CURRENT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't time to switch sysinstall to start configuring softupdates "by default" for file systems at install-time. We currently allow it to be selected, but don't enable it by default. I would propose it be turned on by default for all non-root file systems, or some other similar rule (file systems <64MB, ..). Given that this is the primary recommendation made for system performance tuning, and not only addresses performance but improved reliability, it seems to me that this would be a sensible change to introduce at some useful breaking point, and 5.0 provides a good opportunity to do that. Any objections? Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Dec 1 20:39:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [216.33.66.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEEF137B417; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by elvis.mu.org (Postfix, from userid 1192) id 6693E81D04; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:39:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 22:39:37 -0600 From: Alfred Perlstein To: Robert Watson Cc: arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Enabling Softupdates in default install on -CURRENT Message-ID: <20011201223937.C92148@elvis.mu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.org on Sat, Dec 01, 2001 at 11:27:30PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * Robert Watson [011201 22:27] wrote: > > I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't time to switch sysinstall to start > configuring softupdates "by default" for file systems at install-time. We > currently allow it to be selected, but don't enable it by default. I > would propose it be turned on by default for all non-root file systems, or > some other similar rule (file systems <64MB, ..). Given that this is the > primary recommendation made for system performance tuning, and not only > addresses performance but improved reliability, it seems to me that this > would be a sensible change to introduce at some useful breaking point, and > 5.0 provides a good opportunity to do that. > > Any objections? No objections, please do this! Btw, it's a shame that people are so reluctant to do it on '/' i know there's issues about it filling up, but I think rather than saying no softdep on '/', it would make sense to say no softdep on '/' if it's smaller than 120 megs, the main reason being /tmp. Perhaps a dialog at install time that clearly states: "Would you like to enable 'soft-updates' on your root partition? This can dramatically speed up operations involving temporary files, but you may experience 'out of space' errors if you are not careful. [YES] [NO] " The default being to disable them. -- -Alfred Perlstein [alfred@freebsd.org] 'Instead of asking why a piece of software is using "1970s technology," start asking why software is ignoring 30 years of accumulated wisdom.' http://www.morons.org/rants/gpl-harmful.php3 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Dec 1 21: 2: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rpi.edu (mail.rpi.edu [128.113.22.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A1637B405; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 21:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail.rpi.edu (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB2521M31162; Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:02:01 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: drosih@mail.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 00:01:58 -0500 To: Robert Watson , arch@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: Enabling Softupdates in default install on -CURRENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:27 PM -0500 12/1/01, Robert Watson wrote: >I'm beginning to wonder if it isn't time to switch sysinstall to start >configuring softupdates "by default" for file systems at install-time. >We currently allow it to be selected, but don't enable it by default. >I would propose it be turned on by default for all non-root file >systems, or some other similar rule (file systems <64MB, ..). I expect it would be best to have it default 'off' for /, because the user can get into strange-seeming failures when installing a new kernel. I do like the idea of it being on for most other filesystems. I don't have much of an opinion as to whether it should also default to off for other "small" file systems. >[this change] not only addresses performance but improved reliability, >it seems to me that this would be a sensible change to introduce at some >useful breaking point, and 5.0 provides a good opportunity to do that. Given the benefits, it might even be reasonable for 4.5. Certainly it would be nice to do with 5.0. [whatever happened to softupdates becoming a mount-option, instead of something set in the partition via 'tunefs'? ] -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or gad@freebsd.org Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute or drosih@rpi.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-arch" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-arch Sat Dec 1 23:35: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from LexanSoft.com (h24-83-56-254.va.shawcable.net [24.83.56.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5698737B41D for ; Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25996 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2001 23:27:42 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO IBM?SERVER) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Dec 2001 23:27:42 -0000 Message-ID: <917304402.1007249262854.JavaMail.root@IBM_SERVER> From: postmaster@lexansoft.com To: freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.org Subject: Beta Testing Started! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:33:48 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG
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Talk Back Allows a visitor to leave a commentary to an article or any other information on your Web site.
...more info

An important feature of all our services is that they look native on your Web pages. They do not have any embedded advertisements (banners) and do not impose any stylistic decisions (fonts, colours, etc.) You have complete control over the appearance of our services on your pages.

Our services allow users to enchance their Web sites with features that have been inaccessible to them before.

Our services are not free, but our prices are quite reasonable. You can easily compare them with the prices for similar services provided by other companies. Our services are an order of magnitude cheaper than simlar solutions that require complicated installation procedures and maintenance of server-side applications.

The official launch date is set for December 25, 2001. On this day, all registered users will receive an additional $10 in their accounts (besides the usual $10 registration gift).

You can find additional information and examples of using our services on our Web site: www.lexansoft.com


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