From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 2 13:33:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BDA437B407 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f82KXRJ07704; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:33:27 -0600 Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:33:27 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: Fabio Miranda Cc: Subject: Re: offtopic In-Reply-To: <20010901000358.45923.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You have three days left to do it in... On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Fabio Miranda wrote: >hi, I'm curious is freebsd is doing something special >for its 4.4 release, like BSD4.4 software, i mean, >maybe there is a conmemoration or something like that. >let's do a conmemoration in which users talk about >theirs experience with freebsd. >we are a free comunity... > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger >http://im.yahoo.com > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- EMACS == Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 2 13:39:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.lordlegacy.org (lordlegacy.org [209.61.182.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB8237B405 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sharon ([216.13.207.127]) by server1.lordlegacy.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA32690; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:49:50 -0500 From: "Stephen Hurd" To: "John Galt" , "Fabio Miranda" Cc: Subject: RE: offtopic Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:44:11 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is it possible to get off-topic in freebsd-chat? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 2 13:40:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742B237B401 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.com ([24.12.186.185]) by femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010902204053.HLBL4276.femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com@home.com>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:40:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3B92993D.F4A6FED5@home.com> Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 13:40:29 -0700 From: Rob X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.3-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Hurd Cc: John Galt , Fabio Miranda , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: offtopic References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stephen Hurd wrote: > > Is it possible to get off-topic in freebsd-chat? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- The Numeric Python EM Project www.members.home.net/europax Spam/get rich quick schemes/etc might be off topic :) Rob. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 2 14:13:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.lordlegacy.org (lordlegacy.org [209.61.182.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A658C37B403 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sharon ([216.13.207.127]) by server1.lordlegacy.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA32753; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 11:23:32 -0500 From: "Stephen Hurd" To: "Fabio Miranda" , Subject: RE: offtopic Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 15:17:51 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-reply-to: <20010901000358.45923.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > hi, I'm curious is freebsd is doing something special > for its 4.4 release, like BSD4.4 software, i mean, > maybe there is a conmemoration or something like that. > let's do a conmemoration in which users talk about > theirs experience with freebsd. > we are a free comunity... I don't know exactly what you have in mind, but it sounds like a good idea... but shouldn't something like this been done in Reno for 4.3BSD? :-) But anyways, my experience with FreeBSD is pretty good on the whole with a few "dark spots". I'll try and kick it off... I first started using FreeBSD when I left university... we had used VAX/VMS almost exclusively all through school, and I needed SOMETHING that was at least slightly familiar to me - and within my budget - for at home. I fiddled with most personal OSs that were available at the time, and after a breif love affair with OS/2, settled comfortably into FreeBSD. I used it for a couple of years, then all of my computer geek friends started asking me things like "How would I do X in Linux" and after hearing some of the stuff they were doing, figured it was a more flexible system and decended into the "Dark Years of Confusion" with Linux. I installed and fiddled with almost every distro that was out there and became frustrated with the fragmentation that existed. I'd just get a handle on something and start feeling confident about being able to do it, then someone else would have a different distro installed, and I would have to have a seperate tty just for the man pages. The final straw was when Linux decided it wanted to be on everyones desktop, and it started a subtle lean towards that... most of the newer Linux development was pushing towards a user-friendly, newbie user base, and - although the functionality was still there - It became harder and harder to figure out just what I was looking at with a new Linux install. Instead of one system coming out ahead (which is what I expected) they all seperated more, and the distro wars were getting to me. So I switched back to FreeBSD. It was like slipping back into an old pair of shoes. Everything was just where I expected it to be, I could install any FreeBSD binary package, and if I wanted to FIND software, it was all there... at my fingertips... in ports or packages. Ever since, I've used FreeBSD wherever it was applicable... but still steering many of my friends to Linux... the standard conversation went something like this: Him: "I want to install FreeBSD... how should I set it up" Me: "What do you want to use it for?" Him: "I just want to learn how to use UNIX" Me: "But what do you want to *do* with it?" Him: "I don't know... just learn... use it for my main OS... I hate windows" Me: "So you don't really have a reason to use it?" Him: "Well, you know, to learn it... and not use that MicroSlugde crap" Me: "You know, I use windows for my main desktop system at home. The games are better, and new software is MUCH easier to install and learn." Him: "Yeah, I know... I don't understand why you do that." Me: "You know, you'd probobly be better off using Linux." Him: "Why do you say that?" Me: "Most of the home user software being developed for nix systems is being done on Linux, and it has more help available... look at all the HOW-TOs that exist. The window managers are easier to learn, and more intuitive." Him: "So you say to use Linux rather than FreeBSD?" Me: "Yeah, it would suit your needs better." Him: "Ok, can you help me?" Me: "Nope, but there's a bunch of help all over the place..." It's not that I'm pro-Linux, or anti-FreeBSD, but I just don't feel that FreeBSD should be a home desktop OS. At the office, it makes a nice desktop OS, but there are different needs... different requirements. I don't like the idea of my fiance not being able to read the shopping list I wrote up because I was in a hurry and didn't set the permissions right. However, when one of my friends has an actually USE for FreeBSD, I'll spend hours on the phone and at their place teaching them how to make it "be a firewall" or "A personal web server" or whatever... I just hate to see people install it to be cool... Linux is "cooler" anyways. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 2 16:54:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A87AE37B407; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 16:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f82Nrmv00732; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 01:53:48 +0200 (CEST) To: Rahul Siddharthan Subject: Re: docs/30203: description of security profiles in FAQ is just plain wrong Message-ID: <999474828.3b92c68c38136@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 01:53:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Dima Dorfman , mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <999306309.3b903445f411a@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010901095417.A618@lpt.ens.fr> In-Reply-To: <20010901095417.A618@lpt.ens.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.236.237 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ it's becoming OT even for chat...] Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Salvo Bartolotta said on Sep 1, 2001 at 03:05:09: > > >> "...what each of the security profiles does". The verb (does) > doesn't > > >> agree in number with the subject (profiles). Or something like > > > > >Actually, the subject is "each", which is singular. I'm pretty sure > > > >Michael is right on this one. > > > > As others have pointed out, this is essentially correct. > > > > More precisely, "each of" is used before a pronoun or determiner (the, > my, > > those...); the pronoun or noun is plural. As subject, "each of + > plural > > expression" is *usually* followed by a singular verb; however, the > verb can > > be plural in an informal style. > > > > The use of "each" makes us think of things/people "separately". This > explains > > why "nearly every + countable noun" is preferred to "nearly each + > (countable > > noun)"; it also explains the (normal) singular verb in the foregoing. > > But it's also singular for "every" -- for instance, "nearly every > sheep has four legs" where "sheep" and "has" are both singular. But > it would be plural with "all". When you prefer a plural, you'd > probably say "what all of the security profiles do" but in this case > that's probably inappropriate. Also it leads to ambiguity: do you > mean they all do it together, or any one of them does it? Sorry for the unwanted implication. When "every" determines the (singular) head of a subject noun phrase, a singular verb IS required. BTW, there are slight differences in meaning between "every" and "each", illustrated in these nice examples (cf M. Swan, Practical English Usage, 2nd edition, OUP, 1995): -- The business makes less money each/every year. [year, NOT years] -- She had a child holding on to each hand. [Only "each" is possible] -- Each person in turn went to see the doctor. [Think different^Wseparate] -- He gave every patient the same medicine. [closer to "all"] In a more "anonymous" context, the last sentence might become: "Every patient was given the same medicine". > > > The prepositional phrase "of the security profiles" confuses things > a > > > bit. A trick that my seventh-grade English teacher Mrs. Cantrell > taught > > > me was to take out the prepositional phrase (which is optional in a > > > structural sense anyways) and see if the sentence still seems > > > correct...in this case, "each [...] does" vs. "each [...] do". > > > > Sorry, but Mrs Cantrell was plain wrong. :-) > > > > The reasons originate in syntax, as it were, interwoven with > semantics, "a > > number of people are wrong" being a trivial counter-example. > > It certainly *sounds* wrong but that's perhaps more to do with common > usage than formal rules of syntax or semantics. That is, the word > "number" could grammatically be a collective noun, but here the phrase > "a number of people" is normally taken as a single, plural unit with a > specific connotation (you won't replace "a" with "the" in the next > sentence, for instance). This roughly agrees with what your faq says. Ooops, maybe I used an obscure expression. :-) In "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language", Longman, 1985, R. Quirk discusses concord (also termed agreement) at some lenght, introducing: 1) the principle of grammatical concord: singular subject, singular verb; 2) the principle of notional concord: singular subject with plural meaning, plural verb; 3) the principle of proximity (also termed attraction): "agreement of the verb with a closely preceding noun phrase that functions as subject". Difficulties over concord arise through occasional conflict between 1) and the other principles. A few examples from Quirk's book: -- The government have broken all their promises. ^^^^ ^^^^^ [Notional concord prevailing over grammatical concord] -- ?No one except his own supporters agree with him. [Proximity principle reinforced by notional concord. It is the reason for a number of mistakes, as Mrs. Cantrell had noticed. "?" means that native speakers are unsure about acceptability] -- Ten dollars is all I have left. [Notional concord. "That amount is..."] ^^ -- Fifteen years represents a long period of his life. [Notional concord] ^^^^^^^^^^ At the phrase level: -- That/these five dollars; this/these last few weeks; every few miles; each ten ounces; another two days; a happy three months... Other interesting examples: -- More than one member has protested against the proposal. -- Many a member has protested against the proposal. [Grammatical concord conflicting with notional concord. The noun head is seen as singular ("member"), which determines concord. Cf "More members than one have protested..." or "Many members have protested..."] > Collective nouns aren't clear-cut too; I was having an argument with > someone once about this. Do you say "the committee has met" or "the > committee have met"? He said the English prefer the latter (today, at > least) and the Americans prefer the former. In British English, the plural is used (well, it is more likely) when a group seen as a collection of individuals; the singular when a group is seen as a whole. -- The audience were enjoying every minute of it. [The plural is more likely, since attention is directed at the individual reactions] Cf: -- The audience was enormous. [The plural here might imply enormous people :-)] Americans do prefer the singular. However, they also sometimes use the plural: -- The couple are happily married. [Cf Each couple was asked to complete a form] -- The public has a right to know. [But also: "have a right to know"] -- The committee has not yet decided how they should react to the Governor's letter. ^^^^ Yet another example from Quirk's awesomemegasuperbloated book (1,800 pages): -- Danish bacon and eggs makes a good solid English breakfast. [A single meal] -- Danish bacon and eggs sell very well in London. Since English has a reduced morphology (no declensions; almost no conjugation), certain people think that it is an easy (!) language. As you may imagine, a good number of grammar rules (eg determiners, tense & aspect, consecutio temporum, etc) are quite different in Italian. It is NOT easy to "just sound natural". My only consolation being that nobody speaks English perfectly. :-) -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 2 17:51: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C303137B403; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 17:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA21628; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:50:50 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:50:50 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Bruce A. Mah" , Dima Dorfman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: docs/30203: description of security profiles in FAQ is just plain wrong Message-ID: <20010902205050.A21613@blackhelicopters.org> References: <999306309.3b903445f411a@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010901095417.A618@lpt.ens.fr> <999474828.3b92c68c38136@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <999474828.3b92c68c38136@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 01:53:48AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh, dear... You know, all I wanted to accomplish was something better than what was there. Yes, I was technically correct, but it's not worth the electrons to argue over, especially when it sounds OK as is. I have yet to see a human brain coredump over a mismatched verb. Sigh. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 3 0:43: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F068037B403 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 00:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-9-137.dial.proxad.net [213.228.9.137]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A35AB221 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:42:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 735 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Sep 2001 07:40:49 -0000 Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:40:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Michael Lucas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: docs/30203: description of security profiles in FAQ is just plain wrong Message-ID: <20010903094049.A713@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Michael Lucas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <999306309.3b903445f411a@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010901095417.A618@lpt.ens.fr> <999474828.3b92c68c38136@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010902205050.A21613@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010902205050.A21613@blackhelicopters.org>; from mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org on Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:50:50PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-PRERELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Michael Lucas said on Sep 2, 2001 at 20:50:50: > > Oh, dear... > > You know, all I wanted to accomplish was something better than what > was there. Yes, I was technically correct, but it's not worth the > electrons to argue over, especially when it sounds OK as is. > > I have yet to see a human brain coredump over a mismatched verb. No, but arguing about grammar is *fun* :-) Also, computational linguists (eg, people who write natural language parsers, etc) have to worry about just such petty details: it often makes the difference to what the sentence really means. Maybe some day it will be relevant to FreeBSD too... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 3 2: 1:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.inspire.net.nz (pobox.inspire.net.nz [203.79.89.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F30A37B405 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 02:01:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Debug (pobox.inspire.net.nz [203.79.89.4]) by pobox.inspire.net.nz (8.10.2/8.10.2) with SMTP id f8391s726311 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 21:01:55 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <200109030901.f8391s726311@pobox.inspire.net.nz> To: chat@freebsd.org From: bdh@inspire.net.nz Subject: Weird Network protocol Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:01:55 GMT X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan Standard Edition v3.0.24 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I sent this to chat rather than questions as it's more annoying than critical After helping setup a firewall for an ISP I get the following in my log files : ipfw: 65534 Deny P:2 192.168.32.17 224.0.0.1 in via fxp0 Can anyone tell me what the P:2 stands means. Note the address 192.168.32.17 is not a local machine, it belongs to the upstream provider. --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InSPire Web Mail. http://www.inspire.net.nz/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 3 2: 9:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E18F37B407 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 02:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 14DD666D0A; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 02:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 02:09:45 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: bdh@inspire.net.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Weird Network protocol Message-ID: <20010903020945.A29966@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <200109030901.f8391s726311@pobox.inspire.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200109030901.f8391s726311@pobox.inspire.net.nz>; from bdh@inspire.net.nz on Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 09:01:55AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 09:01:55AM +0000, bdh@inspire.net.nz wrote: > I sent this to chat rather than questions as it's more annoying than crit= ical >=20 > After helping setup a firewall for an ISP I get the following in my log f= iles : >=20 > ipfw: 65534 Deny P:2 192.168.32.17 224.0.0.1 in via fxp0 >=20 > Can anyone tell me what the P:2 stands means. Protocol 2. See /etc/protocols. The packet is harmless, though possibly annoying..it probably comes from a router. Kris --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7k0jZWry0BWjoQKURAgHsAKCQx4hVAaTi8fo4ISOjUQx7uWlZtgCfU5Mq oJ9kP6h0W7zd2Hmgoz8KY/M= =m/i7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OXfL5xGRrasGEqWY-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 3 3:31:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1FC37B403; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 03:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f83AVUw17767; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:31:30 +0200 (CEST) To: Michael Lucas Subject: Re: docs/30203: description of security profiles in FAQ is just plain wrong Message-ID: <999513090.3b935c021d38d@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 12:31:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Bruce A. Mah" , Dima Dorfman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.162.116 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Oh, dear... > You know, all I wanted to accomplish was something better than what > was there. Yes, I was technically correct, but it's not worth the > electrons to argue over, especially when it sounds OK as is. The messages were sent to -chat. > I have yet to see a human brain coredump over a mismatched verb. > Sigh. On a pleasantly cool Sunday night, in a galaxy far, far away, a little green being posted several free KISS considerations for the fun of it -- no generative grammars discussed, no axiom of choice ever involved, no Hamiltonians studied, no questions or money asked, and no coredumps intended. :-) -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 3 12:21: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.lordlegacy.org (lordlegacy.org [209.61.182.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BB6437B403 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sharon ([216.13.207.127]) by server1.lordlegacy.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13124 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:31:15 -0500 From: "Stephen Hurd" To: "Freebsd-Chat" Subject: Who came up with the quote... Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 13:25:35 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just trying to track down the origin of the following quote: "Linux is for people who hate Windows. FreeBSD is for people that like UNIX." I like it and want to give proper credit for it, but can't seem to track the guy down. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 4 5: 7:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp016.mail.yahoo.com (smtp016.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DBA3737B408 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 05:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mkc-65-31-219-45.kc.rr.com (HELO yahoo.com) (65.31.219.45) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 2001 12:07:44 -0000 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <3B94C40F.80005@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 07:07:43 -0500 From: Jim Bryant Reply-To: kc5vdj@yahoo.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i386; en-US; rv:0.9.2) Gecko/20010726 Netscape6/6.1 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Russia issues travel warning to programmers! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.ln.mid.ru/WEBSITE/BRP_4.NSF/e78a48070f128a7b43256999005bcbb3/cbdf8538362a0e7e43256abc002cdcc1?OpenDocument STATEMENT BY THE OFFICIAL SPOKESMAN OF RUSSIA'S MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS Regarding Case of Russian Programmer Dmitry Sklyarov, Arrested in USA 1537-31-08-2001 We have been closely following the developments with regard to the case of Russian programmer Dmitry Sklyarov, arrested in the United States on the basis of an American law protecting copyright in the digital millennium. This is the first instance of this law being applied in practice. Approved in 1998, it has caused a mixed reaction among lawyers, including in the US, most of them believing the law violates the right of users to freedom of transfer of electronic data. On August 30, 2001, the first session of court took place in San Jose, California, during which charges were brought against Sklyarov that may entail up to 25 years' imprisonment. At the session, Sklyarov did not plead guilty. His lawyers consider the accusation groundless and intend to prove that the Russian citizen's right to freedom of speech has been violated as a result of the arrest. The Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs and its agencies abroad maintain constant contact with the US authorities, the defendant and his lawyers. We would like to draw the attention of all the Russian software and programming specialists cooperating with US firms that, regardless of a final decision in the Sklyarov case, provisions of the 1998 Act may be used against them on the territory of the United States. August 31, 2001 jim -- ET has one helluva sense of humor! He's always anal-probing right-wing schizos! -------------------------------------------- POWER TO THE PEOPLE! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 4 20:55:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.moondog.org (freebsd.moondog.org [208.186.117.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E170B37B401 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from elden@localhost) by freebsd.moondog.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f853thY11278 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:55:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from elden) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:55:43 -0700 From: Elden Fenison To: Freebsd-Chat Subject: Re: Who came up with the quote... Message-ID: <20010904205543.D11169@moondog.org> Mail-Followup-To: Freebsd-Chat References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from deuce@lordlegacy.org on Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 01:25:35PM -0600 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 01:25:35PM -0600, Stephen Hurd wrote: > Just trying to track down the origin of the following quote: > > "Linux is for people who hate Windows. FreeBSD is for people that like > UNIX." Hmm, good quote. Probably pretty accurate as well. :) -- -=Elden=- http://www.moondog.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 0:10:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904D437B40B; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intruder.bmah.org ([24.176.204.87]) by femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010905071010.ORPI13169.femail44.sdc1.sfba.home.com@intruder.bmah.org>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:10:10 -0700 Received: (from bmah@localhost) by intruder.bmah.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f857AAO32112; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Warner Losh Cc: Mike Silbersack , Ruslan Ermilov , Valentino Vaschetto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) In-Reply-To: <200109050525.f855PZh41449@harmony.village.org> References: <20010904231554.I7815-100000@achilles.silby.com> <200109050525.f855PZh41449@harmony.village.org> Comments: In-reply-to Warner Losh message dated "Tue, 04 Sep 2001 23:25:35 -0600." From: "Bruce A. Mah" Reply-To: bmah@FreeBSD.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_1603200320P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 00:10:10 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_1603200320P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20010904231554.I7815-100000@achilles.silby.com> Mike Silbersack w > rites: > : I think it's finally about time that you create a mdoc police emblem. > : Without it, we're not going to be able to tell whether someone is really > : from the mdoc agency or is just one of the Village People. > > Hey, I'm the only one that can issue Village People cards around here. [moved to -chat] Gee thanks guys, for getting "YMCA" lodged into my brain while I was working on the release notes. I propose that we throw out our README file and replace it with this instead... Bruce. ----- "FreeBSD" Sung to the tune of: "YMCA", by The Village People Inspired by: {silby,imp}@freebsd.org Lyrics mangled by: bmah@freebsd.org Young man, I said don't mope around I said, young man, 'cause your servers are down I said, young man, pick yourself off the ground There's no need to be unhappy Young man, there's an O.S. for you I said, young man, if you've got work to do You can boot it, and I'm sure you will find Many ways to have a good time {Refrain} It's always fun to run FreeBSD It's always fun to run FreeBSD They have all that you need, right there on the net You can run it and not get upset It's always fun to run FreeBSD It's always fun to run FreeBSD You can serve the whole Web, you can send all your mail You can run it and it won't fail Young man, are you ready to roll I said, young man, where do you want to go I said, young man, you can do a "buildworld" But you've got to read UPDATING You don't need to pay anything I said, young man, Beastie's got the right thing So just run it, get the latest release I'm sure it will help you and me {Refrain} Young man, I was once in your shoes I said, I had a screen that was so blue I felt that Bill didn't care not at all I felt the whole world was so small That's when Beastie came up to me And said, young man, take a walk up the street There's a O.S. that's called FreeBSD It can start you back on your way {First part of refrain} FreeBSD you'll find it running FreeBSD Young man, young man, servers shouldn't be down Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground. FreeBSD you'll like it running on FreeBSD Young man, young man, servers shouldn't be down Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground FreeBSD you'll like it running on FreeBSD Young man, young man, are you listening to me Young man, young man, what do you wanna be --==_Exmh_1603200320P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.3.1+ 05/14/2001 iD8DBQE7lc/R2MoxcVugUsMRAgNaAJ0dojOrlDxDJny6cZXiAsXg9Wp+3wCg8iYi l3TMKi5Lg24IwrEcJcckKUQ= =Dcnr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_1603200320P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 0:29:58 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8965337B40C; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f857TcT98546; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:29:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) To: bmah@freebsd.org Cc: imp@harmony.village.org, silby@silby.com, ru@freebsd.org, logo@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) In-Reply-To: <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> References: <20010904231554.I7815-100000@achilles.silby.com> <200109050525.f855PZh41449@harmony.village.org> <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010905002938O.jkh@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 00:29:38 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 90 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Don't make me have to hurt you, Pinky." From: "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 00:10:10 -0700 > If memory serves me right, Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <20010904231554.I7815-100000@achilles.silby.com> Mike Silbersack w > > rites: > > : I think it's finally about time that you create a mdoc police emblem. > > : Without it, we're not going to be able to tell whether someone is really > > : from the mdoc agency or is just one of the Village People. > > > > Hey, I'm the only one that can issue Village People cards around here. > > [moved to -chat] > > Gee thanks guys, for getting "YMCA" lodged into my brain while I was > working on the release notes. > > I propose that we throw out our README file and replace it with this > instead... > > Bruce. > > ----- > > "FreeBSD" > Sung to the tune of: "YMCA", by The Village People > Inspired by: {silby,imp}@freebsd.org > Lyrics mangled by: bmah@freebsd.org > > Young man, I said don't mope around > I said, young man, 'cause your servers are down > I said, young man, pick yourself off the ground > There's no need to be unhappy > > Young man, there's an O.S. for you > I said, young man, if you've got work to do > You can boot it, and I'm sure you will find > Many ways to have a good time > > {Refrain} > > It's always fun to run FreeBSD > It's always fun to run FreeBSD > They have all that you need, right there on the net > You can run it and not get upset > It's always fun to run FreeBSD > It's always fun to run FreeBSD > You can serve the whole Web, you can send all your mail > You can run it and it won't fail > > Young man, are you ready to roll > I said, young man, where do you want to go > I said, young man, you can do a "buildworld" > But you've got to read UPDATING > > You don't need to pay anything > I said, young man, Beastie's got the right thing > So just run it, get the latest release > I'm sure it will help you and me > > {Refrain} > > Young man, I was once in your shoes > I said, I had a screen that was so blue > I felt that Bill didn't care not at all > I felt the whole world was so small > > That's when Beastie came up to me > And said, young man, take a walk up the street > There's a O.S. that's called FreeBSD > It can start you back on your way > > {First part of refrain} > > FreeBSD you'll find it running FreeBSD > > Young man, young man, servers shouldn't be down > Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground. > FreeBSD you'll like it running on FreeBSD > Young man, young man, servers shouldn't be down > Young man, young man, get yourself off the ground > FreeBSD you'll like it running on FreeBSD > Young man, young man, are you listening to me > Young man, young man, what do you wanna be > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 1:15: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from winston.freebsd.org (adsl-64-173-15-98.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [64.173.15.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE84D37B408 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 01:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by winston.freebsd.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f858ETT98726; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 01:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@freebsd.org) To: tlambert2@mindspring.com Cc: phk@critter.freebsd.dk, nate@yogotech.com, zzhang@cs.binghamton.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What is VT_TFS? In-Reply-To: <3B95DAB1.67861BCF@mindspring.com> References: <79373.999627125@critter> <3B95DAB1.67861BCF@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.1 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.0 (HANANOEN) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20010905011429W.jkh@freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:14:29 -0700 From: Jordan Hubbard X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 52 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Erm, this thread really comes far closer to the charter for freebsd-chat than for -hackers. Now that I've redirected it there, I hope Terry will keep it where it belongs. Thanks. - Jordan P.S. Yes, I do obviously have my own view of these events, but I'm also far too busy right now to get anywhere close to this thread. :) From: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: What is VT_TFS? Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 00:56:33 -0700 > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > Nate, > > > > You're replying to Terry for christs sake! What did you expect if not > > revisionist $anything ? > > > > Which reminds me, Adrian still oves us his story about ref :-) > > Poul, you're going off again, without regard for facts. > > Remember the last time FreeBSD history came up, I proved Nate > mistaken in his claim that my authorship of the original 386BSD > FAQ was "revisionist history". > > You can check these facts out in the archives on Minnie; I can > also provide almost every email I ever sent or received (if it > resulted in a response from me to the author), from 1988 forward, > since I have it all archived, since even at the time, I felt it > might end up being an important historical record. At the very > least, it has provided me with a rich source of information from > which to draw, in order to study "Open Source" projects in general, > and 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD, in particular. > > I am only willing to open up the non-private email sent or > received, and then only with considerable incentive (it is a > very large archive). > > Alternately, you can go to Warren's archive and look there, > before making accusations of revisionism. > > However, if you insist, I can and will happily quote large > sections of it to this mailing list, in support of any contended > claims of inaccuracy... > > Thanks, > -- Terry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 1:17:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.yogotech.com (ns.yogotech.com [206.127.123.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB0B37B406; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 01:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nomad.yogotech.com (nomad.yogotech.com [206.127.123.131]) by ns.yogotech.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA09059; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 02:17:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@nomad.yogotech.com) Received: (from nate@localhost) by nomad.yogotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA13652; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 02:17:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate) From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15253.57219.108354.702579@nomad.yogotech.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 02:17:07 -0600 To: Jordan Hubbard Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, nate@yogotech.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What is VT_TFS? In-Reply-To: <20010905011429W.jkh@freebsd.org> References: <79373.999627125@critter> <3B95DAB1.67861BCF@mindspring.com> <20010905011429W.jkh@freebsd.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.95 under 21.1 (patch 12) "Channel Islands" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@yogotech.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > P.S. Yes, I do obviously have my own view of these events, but I'm > also far too busy right now to get anywhere close to this thread. :) You already got to writeup your version as the definitive history in the handbook. :) Nate > > Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > > Nate, > > > > > > You're replying to Terry for christs sake! What did you expect if not > > > revisionist $anything ? > > > > > > Which reminds me, Adrian still oves us his story about ref :-) > > > > Poul, you're going off again, without regard for facts. > > > > Remember the last time FreeBSD history came up, I proved Nate > > mistaken in his claim that my authorship of the original 386BSD > > FAQ was "revisionist history". > > > > You can check these facts out in the archives on Minnie; I can > > also provide almost every email I ever sent or received (if it > > resulted in a response from me to the author), from 1988 forward, > > since I have it all archived, since even at the time, I felt it > > might end up being an important historical record. At the very > > least, it has provided me with a rich source of information from > > which to draw, in order to study "Open Source" projects in general, > > and 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD, in particular. > > > > I am only willing to open up the non-private email sent or > > received, and then only with considerable incentive (it is a > > very large archive). > > > > Alternately, you can go to Warren's archive and look there, > > before making accusations of revisionism. > > > > However, if you insist, I can and will happily quote large > > sections of it to this mailing list, in support of any contended > > claims of inaccuracy... > > > > Thanks, > > -- Terry > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 5:21:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za (msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za [196.2.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C9137B408 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athalon ([196.30.183.10]) by msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GJ6007USVNWX5@msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:21:44 +0200 (SAST) Received: by athalon (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:21:40 +0200 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:21:40 +0200 From: Piet Delport Subject: Scripts and setuid To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010905142139.A2190@athalon> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RC X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 6.0as BETA (http://www.vim.org/) X-Crypto: gpg (GnuPG) 1.0.6 (http://www.gnupg.org/) X-GPG-Key-ID: 0x6B191427 X-GPG-Fingerprint: C7FF A540 2199 F7BF 1933 5640 CD15 0FF3 6B19 1427 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tidings, Some background: Having recently discovered cdcontrol(1), and finding it useful for playing CDs from the console, i was in search of a way to cleanly run it as a non-root user. I initially tried playing around with the modes of /dev/acd0c and the /usr/sbin/cdcontrol binary, which works, but has the disadvantage of being overwritten whenever i "make world". So my next solution was to create a setuid root shell script in /usr/local/sbin called cdc, which simply contains: #!/bin/sh /usr/sbin/cdcontrol -f /dev/acd0c "$@" and has the dual advantage of saving me some typing, and being immune to "make world" clobberage. It didn't work however, always giving permission denied errors despite any combination of setuid and setgid modes and ownerships i tried. After some testing with "id" and R'ing of TFM, i eventually stumbled across this bit from execve(2): The set-ID bits are not honored if the respective file system has the nosuid option enabled or if the new process file is an interpreter file. Maybe i'm just dense, but this came as a surprise for me. :) I was always under the general impression that the setuid bit works on all executable files (despite never trying it firsthand before now, obviously), and can't see how it's harmful to make scripts setuid[1]. So, to satisfy my own curiosity, why is this so? Historical, technical, or traditional reasons, or what? (And in case anyone is interested, i'm currently settling for making cdcontrol(1) setuid root, and calling it from cdc. Not the best solution by far, i know, but this is mainly an informal desktop box. hence me playing CDs on it in the first place.) [1] Well, not more harmful than making binary executables setuid in the first place. --=20 Piet Delport Today's subliminal thought is: --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7lhjTzRUP82sZFCcRAk5xAJ98Cj2S9xZ7Auop8mr3jImBPV+Z6QCffnxO pjn3MiVjDvrNhOi2uUdjtmw= =HLTJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --45Z9DzgjV8m4Oswq-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 7:44:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fling.sanbi.ac.za (fling.sanbi.ac.za [196.38.142.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444FA37B403; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 07:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from johann by fling.sanbi.ac.za with local (Exim 3.13 #4) id 15edum-000G0r-00; Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:44:28 +0200 Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:44:28 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Ruslan Ermilov Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 style.9 Message-ID: <20010905164428.E59559@fling.sanbi.ac.za> References: <200109050046.f850kqZ94002@freefall.freebsd.org> <20010905143804.Q96906@sunbay.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010905143804.Q96906@sunbay.com>; from ru@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:38:04PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ cvs-committers -> chat ] Ruslan Ermilov on 2001-09-05 (Wed) at 14:38:04 +0300: > > And what was wrong with exclamation marks? Unrelated, but... http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Anti-exclamation_20mark_20overuse_20key!!! (Yes, the exclamation marks form part of the URL.) -- V To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 8: 6:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AA5E37B403; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16203; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:06:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010905090148.04638bf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:06:41 -0600 To: Jordan Hubbard , bmah@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: imp@harmony.village.org, silby@silby.com, ru@FreeBSD.ORG, logo@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010905002938O.jkh@freebsd.org> References: <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> <20010904231554.I7815-100000@achilles.silby.com> <200109050525.f855PZh41449@harmony.village.org> <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not to mention the filk of John Lennon's "Free as a Bird" (Surely you've heard this one).... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 9:40:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EFB37B401 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:40:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f85GeXi12486; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:40:33 +0200 (CEST) To: Piet Delport Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid Message-ID: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:40:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.170.42 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Tidings, > Some background: > Having recently discovered cdcontrol(1), and finding it useful for > playing CDs from the console, i was in search of a way to cleanly run it > as a non-root user. > I initially tried playing around with the modes of /dev/acd0c and the > /usr/sbin/cdcontrol binary, which works, but has the disadvantage of > being overwritten whenever i "make world". Maybe I am missing something. Surely your /dev/MAKEDEV.local doesn't work? (cf MAKEDEV(8)) Anyway, the [device-creating &] chmod'ing commands could be put in a two-liner, or rather, a one-liner to be executed as part of your make world. As to user settings, this is an excerpt from my ~/.login: # Cdcontrol(1) & mixer(8) stuff. setenv CDROM /dev/acd0c mixer vol 86:86 > /dev/null mixer igain 75:75 > /dev/null mixer ogain 75:75 > /dev/null mixer pcm 33:33 > /dev/null mixer cd 100:100 > /dev/null mixer mic 0:0 > /dev/null mixer speaker 0:0 > /dev/null mixer line 0:0 > /dev/null mixer bass 75:75 > /dev/null mixer treble 75:75 > /dev/null mixer synth 75:75 > /dev/null ------------------------------ HTH, Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 10:40:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from silby.com (cb34181-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.14.173.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EFB37B40F for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10653 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Sep 2001 17:40:05 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Sep 2001 17:40:05 -0000 Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:40:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Warner Losh , Ruslan Ermilov , Valentino Vaschetto , Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) In-Reply-To: <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> Message-ID: <20010905123542.T10514-100000@achilles.silby.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > [moved to -chat] > > Gee thanks guys, for getting "YMCA" lodged into my brain while I was > working on the release notes. > > I propose that we throw out our README file and replace it with this > instead... > > Bruce. > > ----- > > "FreeBSD" > Sung to the tune of: "YMCA", by The Village People > Inspired by: {silby,imp}@freebsd.org > Lyrics mangled by: bmah@freebsd.org Hm. I guess I'm glad that I didn't suggest mdoc police Fan Fic or something similar. :) Your song does flow pretty well, though. Maybe you have a future in parody song writing. Mike "Silby" Silbersack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 10:45:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from silby.com (cb34181-a.mdsn1.wi.home.com [24.14.173.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D2637B40D for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10667 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Sep 2001 17:45:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Sep 2001 17:45:16 -0000 Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:45:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Silbersack To: Ruslan Ermilov Cc: Kris Kennaway , Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9 In-Reply-To: <20010905101020.E96906@sunbay.com> Message-ID: <20010905124359.E10514-100000@achilles.silby.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:17:26PM -0500, Mike Silbersack wrote: > > > > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > > > > Hey, you've just got a yellow card for this commit! > > > > I think it's finally about time that you create a mdoc police emblem. > > Without it, we're not going to be able to tell whether someone is really > > from the mdoc agency or is just one of the Village People. > > > The "minimal" emblem should look like this: > > Reviewed by: groff -ww -man -mtty-char -Tascii >/dev/null No, I mean a real graphical one. We could stick it somewhere on the website. On that note, what does a ports wraith look like? Mike "Silby" Silbersack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 11: 4:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E786C37B40B; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA05970; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:04:06 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: RE: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Sep-01 Bruce A. Mah wrote: > If memory serves me right, Warner Losh wrote: >> In message <20010904231554.I7815-100000@achilles.silby.com> Mike Silbersack >> w >> rites: >> : I think it's finally about time that you create a mdoc police emblem. >> : Without it, we're not going to be able to tell whether someone is really >> : from the mdoc agency or is just one of the Village People. >> >> Hey, I'm the only one that can issue Village People cards around here. > > [moved to -chat] > > Gee thanks guys, for getting "YMCA" lodged into my brain while I was > working on the release notes. > > I propose that we throw out our README file and replace it with this > instead... > > Bruce. This belongs in fortune. Perhaps a new fortunes-freebsd file for FreeBSD-specific fortunes. (Like PWMF.) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 11:35:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45E837B40D; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a159.otenet.gr [212.205.215.159]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f85IYv724933; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:34:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f85IOAw03889; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:24:11 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:24:10 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Mike Silbersack Cc: Ruslan Ermilov , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9 Message-ID: <20010905212410.A3812@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010905101020.E96906@sunbay.com> <20010905124359.E10514-100000@achilles.silby.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010905124359.E10514-100000@achilles.silby.com>; from silby@silby.com on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:45:16PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:45:16PM -0500, Mike Silbersack wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:17:26PM -0500, Mike Silbersack wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Ruslan Ermilov wrote: > > > > > > > Hey, you've just got a yellow card for this commit! > > > > > > I think it's finally about time that you create a mdoc police emblem. > > > Without it, we're not going to be able to tell whether someone is really > > > from the mdoc agency or is just one of the Village People. > > > > > The "minimal" emblem should look like this: > > > > Reviewed by: groff -ww -man -mtty-char -Tascii >/dev/null > > No, I mean a real graphical one. We could stick it somewhere on the > website. Excellent idea. But then we'll probably need a logo to for kernel people too, one for core members, one for plain good ol' committers, and one for porters (which brings us to the next topic): > On that note, what does a ports wraith look like? He's hooded, with his eyes gleaming during a ports-freeze. The optional crown with the FreeBSD-porter logo is probably an essential part of the general look too. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 11:41: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za (msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za [196.2.46.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128E837B40D for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athalon ([196.30.181.37]) by msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GJ7005ESD80P8@msg-proxy2.mweb.co.za> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:40:50 +0200 (SAST) Received: by athalon (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:40:55 +0200 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:40:55 +0200 From: Piet Delport Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid In-reply-to: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <20010905204055.A268@athalon> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RC X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 6.0as BETA (http://www.vim.org/) X-Crypto: gpg (GnuPG) 1.0.6 (http://www.gnupg.org/) X-GPG-Key-ID: 0x6B191427 X-GPG-Fingerprint: C7FF A540 2199 F7BF 1933 5640 CD15 0FF3 6B19 1427 References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 at 18:40:32 +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: [...] > > I initially tried playing around with the modes of /dev/acd0c and > > the /usr/sbin/cdcontrol binary, which works, but has the > > disadvantage of being overwritten whenever i "make world". >=20 > Maybe I am missing something. Surely your /dev/MAKEDEV.local doesn't > work? (cf MAKEDEV(8)) >=20 > Anyway, the [device-creating &] chmod'ing commands could be put in a > two-liner, or rather, a one-liner to be executed as part of your make > world. [snip] Ah, wasn't aware MAKEDEV.local was used for this. Thanks. :) That still leaves me with the original question though, why can't scripts be run setuid? --=20 Piet Delport Today's subliminal thought is: --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7lnG3zRUP82sZFCcRApMMAJ0dvIKroK6Yy+brLzCGDIBAoOHyBQCePueZ 8l1bOP2QlgdApQRCV7b+k/E= =q2Oa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sdtB3X0nJg68CQEu-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 11:52:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF7537B409 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a159.otenet.gr [212.205.215.159]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f85Iqd729203; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:52:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f85IqxG04364; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:52:59 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:52:58 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Piet Delport Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid Message-ID: <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010905204055.A268@athalon>; from pjd@siberiyan.dyndns.org on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:40:55PM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:40:55PM +0200, Piet Delport wrote: > > That still leaves me with the original question though, why can't > scripts be run setuid? Allowing scripts to be run with setuid is VERY insecure. It is very easy to set up the environment of the parent process and execute a script with certain things in the environment that will cheat and have the script execute code with elevated priviledges. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 14:25:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C81837B405; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA33623; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:25:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:25:45 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Warner Losh , Mike Silbersack , Ruslan Ermilov , Valentino Vaschetto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Message-ID: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010904231554.I7815-100000@achilles.silby.com> <200109050525.f855PZh41449@harmony.village.org> <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: <200109050710.f857AAO32112@intruder.bmah.org>; from bmah@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:10:10AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bruce, I suggest that you get three other guys with you and perform this at BSDCon. Would make a wonderful opening act before the keynote. And it sure beats out my Dire Straits' "I want my... I want my B S D..." ==ml -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 14:48:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BCB837B401; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10236; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 14:47:33 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Michael Lucas Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , Warner Losh , "Bruce A. Mah" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Sep-01 Michael Lucas wrote: > Bruce, > > I suggest that you get three other guys with you and perform this at > BSDCon. Would make a wonderful opening act before the keynote. > > And it sure beats out my Dire Straits' "I want my... I want my B S D..." Hmm, I don't know how well it would fair against intoxicated developers from another, unnamed, *BSD project "singing" various national anthems. *duck* (No disrespect to said developers intended.) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 15:19:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C09A37B405; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA33840; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:19:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:19:47 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , Warner Losh , "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Message-ID: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from jhb@FreeBSD.org on Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:47:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:47:33PM -0700, John Baldwin wrote: > On 05-Sep-01 Michael Lucas wrote: > > I suggest that you get three other guys with you and perform this at > > BSDCon. Would make a wonderful opening act before the keynote. > > Hmm, I don't know how well it would fair against intoxicated developers from > another, unnamed, *BSD project "singing" various national anthems. *duck* > > (No disrespect to said developers intended.) "Gong Show" anyone? Whoever lasts longest is hereby hailed as the Penultimate BSD of BSDCon? Of course, Apple has money, and could hire a real musician or two. We'd have to restrict this to actual BSD developers/contributors only. I bet Jordan and Mike could really get down if they had the motivation. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 15:22:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.bsdimp.com [204.144.255.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2D537B403; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f85MMOX25588; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:22:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f85MMOh48599; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:22:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Message-Id: <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> To: Michael Lucas Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , "Bruce A. Mah" In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:19:47 EDT." <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 16:22:24 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Michael Lucas writes: : "Gong Show" anyone? Whoever lasts longest is hereby hailed as the : Penultimate BSD of BSDCon? I'll have to dust off my parody of hotel california: "next thing I remember, I was cvs | grep | more. I had to put the change back to the code just like before" Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 15:23:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849A537B40B for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.241.123] ([194.78.241.123]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.12) with ESMTP id f85MMs205442; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 00:22:54 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 00:22:59 +0200 To: Michael Lucas From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:19 PM -0400 9/5/01, Michael Lucas wrote: > Of course, Apple has money, and could hire a real musician or two. > We'd have to restrict this to actual BSD developers/contributors only. > I bet Jordan and Mike could really get down if they had the > motivation. Ahh, but would Jordan be representing his employer (Apple), or the FreeBSD project? ;-) -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 15:36:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D82A37B406; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA07767; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 15:36:11 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Warner Losh Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Mike Silbersack , Ruslan Ermilov , Valentino Vaschetto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Michael Lucas Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Sep-01 Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Michael Lucas writes: >: "Gong Show" anyone? Whoever lasts longest is hereby hailed as the >: Penultimate BSD of BSDCon? > > I'll have to dust off my parody of hotel california: > "next thing I remember, I was cvs | grep | more. > I had to put the change back to the code just like before" I can provide some simple guitar accompaniment for that (just chords, no fancy picking). -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 15:43: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2053137B405 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010905224302.PVCU29510.femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:43:02 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:42:37 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) In-Reply-To: <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now I think we're beginning to see the real reason behind the delay in shipping 5.0-RELELASE. All our developers are secretly aspiring to join the next big boy band of the world. :-) --Chip Morton At 06:22 PM 9/5/2001, you wrote: >In message <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Michael Lucas writes: >: "Gong Show" anyone? Whoever lasts longest is hereby hailed as the >: Penultimate BSD of BSDCon? > >I'll have to dust off my parody of hotel california: > "next thing I remember, I was cvs | grep | more. > I had to put the change back to the code just like before" > >Warner > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 15:49:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackhelicopters.org (geburah.blackhelicopters.org [209.69.178.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF1637B405 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mwlucas@localhost) by blackhelicopters.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA33946; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:49:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mwlucas) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:49:17 -0400 From: Michael Lucas To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Message-ID: <20010905184917.B33657@blackhelicopters.org> References: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:22:59AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:22:59AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > Ahh, but would Jordan be representing his employer (Apple), or > the FreeBSD project? ;-) I suppose that would depend on which act he was a part of. If he hooks up with Bruce, then it's FreeBSD. -- Michael Lucas mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 15:56: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from msg-proxy3.mweb.co.za (msg-proxy3.mweb.co.za [196.2.46.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B72237B405 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberiyan.dyndns.org ([196.30.181.37]) by msg-proxy3.mweb.co.za (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GJ7000KXP15UQ@msg-proxy3.mweb.co.za> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 06 Sep 2001 00:55:55 +0200 (SAST) Received: by siberiyan.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 06 Sep 2001 00:56:00 +0200 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 00:56:00 +0200 From: Piet Delport Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid In-reply-to: <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <20010906005600.A4157@athalon> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RC X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 6.0as BETA (http://www.vim.org/) X-Crypto: gpg (GnuPG) 1.0.6 (http://www.gnupg.org/) X-GPG-Key-ID: 0x6B191427 X-GPG-Fingerprint: C7FF A540 2199 F7BF 1933 5640 CD15 0FF3 6B19 1427 References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 at 21:52:58 +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:40:55PM +0200, Piet Delport wrote: > > That still leaves me with the original question though, why can't > > scripts be run setuid? >=20 > Allowing scripts to be run with setuid is VERY insecure. >=20 > It is very easy to set up the environment of the parent process and > execute a script with certain things in the environment that will > cheat and have the script execute code with elevated priviledges. True, but isn't the same thing generally true for non-script executables as well? How insecure is it, for example, to have a small setuid script (with basic checks in place like overriding PATH to something conservative, etc.) that writable only by root, and owned by root:bar, with the intent that users in group bar can execute it? I'm very probably missing something important (if so, please enlighten me), but how is the the above much worse than having a similar setuid binary doing the same? Thanks, --=20 Piet Delport Today's subliminal thought is: --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7lq2AzRUP82sZFCcRAkn5AJoDiwIAEY8Qhymp912OM/kV/Nr8sQCgpJZJ vrEzuspbQysNsRFkpYVZThc= =kKU6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Q68bSM7Ycu6FN28Q-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 16: 5:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC3C737B40B for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 83532 invoked by uid 100); 5 Sep 2001 23:04:55 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15254.44951.324019.272341@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:04:55 -0500 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Whatever it takes to get funding. :-) types: > Now I think we're beginning to see the real reason behind the delay in > shipping 5.0-RELELASE. All our developers are secretly aspiring to join > the next big boy band of the world. :-) > > --Chip Morton > > > > At 06:22 PM 9/5/2001, you wrote: > >In message <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Michael Lucas writes: > >: "Gong Show" anyone? Whoever lasts longest is hereby hailed as the > >: Penultimate BSD of BSDCon? > > > >I'll have to dust off my parody of hotel california: > > "next thing I remember, I was cvs | grep | more. > > I had to put the change back to the code just like before" > > > >Warner > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Mike Meyer http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 16:14:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9E937B407 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9FD2A66D0A; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:14:08 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Piet Delport Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid Message-ID: <20010905161408.A80303@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> <20010906005600.A4157@athalon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010906005600.A4157@athalon>; from siberiyan@mweb.co.za on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:56:00AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:56:00AM +0200, Piet Delport wrote: > > It is very easy to set up the environment of the parent process and > > execute a script with certain things in the environment that will > > cheat and have the script execute code with elevated priviledges. >=20 > True, but isn't the same thing generally true for non-script executables > as well? No. > How insecure is it, for example, to have a small setuid script (with > basic checks in place like overriding PATH to something conservative, > etc.) that writable only by root, and owned by root:bar, with the intent > that users in group bar can execute it? I forget where I saw it, but there was a tutorial which went through about a dozen ways to gain privilege using a setuid shell script on OSes which allow it. It's just too easy. > I'm very probably missing something important (if so, please enlighten > me), but how is the the above much worse than having a similar setuid > binary doing the same? Setuid binaries ignore all dangerous environment variables and so (modulo implementation bugs) can't be controlled by the attacker to gain privilege. Setuid shell scripts don't. Kris --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7lrHAWry0BWjoQKURArrUAJ49rv81QA+tU1abJu9cR4TXm3UZkgCeJfcm CEDVxB07H4MPWSIZF7PjuNQ= =hmT4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vtzGhvizbBRQ85DL-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 16:35:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moutvdom00.kundenserver.de (moutvdom00.kundenserver.de [195.20.224.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949F937B405 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [195.20.224.209] (helo=mrvdom02.schlund.de) by moutvdom00.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15emC7-0005TT-00; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:34:55 +0200 Received: from p3ee2944f.dip.t-dialin.net ([62.226.148.79] helo=pc3) by mrvdom02.schlund.de with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15emC7-0006Db-00; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:34:55 +0200 Message-ID: <00c101c13662$c3716cd0$0364000a@abc> From: "Nicolas Rachinsky" To: "Piet Delport" , "Giorgos Keramidas" Cc: References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> <20010906005600.A4157@athalon> Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:30:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't know if this applies to FreeBSD, but I found the=20 following in the Perl documentation. from perldoc perlsec: Beyond the obvious problems that stem from giving special privileges to systems as flexible as scripts, on many versions of Unix, set-id scripts are inherently insecure right from the start. The problem is a race condition in the kernel. Between the time the kernel opens the file to see which interpreter to run and when the (now-set-id) interpreter turns around and reopens the file to interpret it, the file in question may have changed, especially if you have symbolic links on your system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 17:54:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B7037B405; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23406; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:54:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184618.0461f460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 18:54:28 -0600 To: John Baldwin , Warner Losh From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Mike Silbersack , Ruslan Ermilov , Valentino Vaschetto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Michael Lucas In-Reply-To: References: <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:36 PM 9/5/2001, John Baldwin wrote: >I can provide some simple guitar accompaniment for that (just chords, no fancy >picking). To do the original arrangement takes 3 guitars plus bass; however, it's possible to do a pretty good version with less. I've done it with Syntax (Jeff and Maya Bonhoff) with two guitars and bass. If folks are interested, we could get a "BSD Daemon Band" together or use karaoke tapes. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 5 18:24: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FF837B401 for ; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b009.otenet.gr [195.167.121.137]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f861Nu719682; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:23:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f861OHV03677; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:24:17 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:24:15 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Piet Delport Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid Message-ID: <20010906042415.A2464@hades.hell.gr> References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> <20010906005600.A4157@athalon> <00c101c13662$c3716cd0$0364000a@abc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <00c101c13662$c3716cd0$0364000a@abc>; from list@rachinsky.de on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:30:30AM +0200 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was trying to come up with a practical example why a setuid shell script is a very unsafe thing to have around. This is what I came up with during the last few hours. To support this opinion, imagine that even with code like below wrapped around your normal shell script, you are never really sure if the script is really very safe. The code tries to minimize the effect the execution environment has on the rest of the shell script, by clearing the environment and executing itself only if HOME is set in the current environment. The only 'saved' environment entry is the one of LOGNAME, which is used further below: #!/bin/sh ( env | grep HOME >/dev/null 2>&1 ) &&\ exec /usr/bin/env - LOGNAME="$LOGNAME" /bin/sh $0 ## Insert your real shell script code below this line. echo "Hello $LOGNAME ..." ## EOF [ Enters the pimply faced youth, the assistant of BOFH, trying to fool around with your newly crafted shell magick. ] It is a shell script remember. To have the interpreter be able to run it, one must have read permissions on it. So the user can 'see' that you base your check for an `empty' environment in HOME being set. He can also see that you are passing $LOGNAME to the `cleared' environment. By playing with various values of LOGNAME and env, I came up with this interesting thing about the above, 'secure environment' script. $ sh hello.sh Hello charon ... $ env - LOGNAME="dear" sh lala.sh Hello dear ... $ env - LOGNAME="HOME" sh lala.sh [ here started the fork bomb ] Can you see why the above code that tries to minimize the effects of the environment to the rest of the shell script, falls in an infinite "exec env ..." loop ? Hint: The value of HOME is *always* unset and the value of LOGNAME is 'HOME' which matches the grep pattern. What I'm trying to prove is that shell scripts rely heavily on the environment passed to them, and they are inherently unsafe, without being setuid. Imagine fooling around with a script like the one above (which is at first glance a very 'secure' script), and also *has* the setuid bit on. Horrors... -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 4:11:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hollowman.mweb.co.za (hollowman.mweb.co.za [196.2.46.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CCE37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberiyan.dyndns.org ([196.30.181.18]) by hollowman.mweb.co.za (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GJ80011CN3BHD@hollowman.mweb.co.za> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:11:37 +0200 (SAST) Received: by siberiyan.dyndns.org (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:11:41 +0200 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:11:41 +0200 From: Piet Delport Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid In-reply-to: <20010905161408.A80303@xor.obsecurity.org> To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <20010906131141.B4157@athalon> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=l76fUT7nc3MelDdI; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RC X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 6.0as BETA (http://www.vim.org/) X-Crypto: gpg (GnuPG) 1.0.6 (http://www.gnupg.org/) X-GPG-Key-ID: 0x6B191427 X-GPG-Fingerprint: C7FF A540 2199 F7BF 1933 5640 CD15 0FF3 6B19 1427 References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> <20010906005600.A4157@athalon> <20010905161408.A80303@xor.obsecurity.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 at 16:14:08 -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:56:00AM +0200, Piet Delport wrote: > > How insecure is it, for example, to have a small setuid script (with > > basic checks in place like overriding PATH to something > > conservative, etc.) that writable only by root, and owned by > > root:bar, with the intent that users in group bar can execute it? >=20 > I forget where I saw it, but there was a tutorial which went through > about a dozen ways to gain privilege using a setuid shell script on > OSes which allow it. It's just too easy. Did some web-digging (thanks Google!) and came up with the following: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/unix-faq/faq/part4/section-7.html http://www.softlab.ntua.gr/~taver/security/secur11.html Ouch. So besides numerous already-mentioned tricks for /bin/sh like making symlinks named `-i' and fooling around with the environment, the entire #! script interpreter system is vulnerable to a race condition where the script to be executed is swapped out from underneath the interpreter and replaced with malicious code, after privileges have been raised. Which blows out of the water the idea that even if /bin/sh was too vulnerable, other interpreters might be safe. Apparently the only exception to the above is perl (in the form of suidperl or something), which is even used in the base system (/usr/bin/keyinfo). I've also found the sudo package though, which seems to do achieve roughly what i'm trying here, without the risk of setuid scripts. Neat. So, next question, isn't it a good idea to mention this stuff in the execve(2) (and/or chmod(1)) manpages, to prevent future confusion by similar souls? Is this where i learn groff and join freebsd-doc? :) --=20 Piet Delport Today's subliminal thought is: --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7l1ntzRUP82sZFCcRAstRAJsEmEzbIQJNxcr+9t6MCCvgr0Oz7ACfdxGS zzvr0pkG0gHXLS1/M4XhZ5g= =+tx9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --l76fUT7nc3MelDdI-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 5:12:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0104F37B406 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 05:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA85119; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:12:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Sep 2001 14:12:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> Message-ID: Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information writes: > Now I think we're beginning to see the real reason behind the delay in > shipping 5.0-RELELASE. All our developers are secretly aspiring to > join the next big boy band of the world. :-) Yeah, the BSD Boys, with their all-time favorite "(You Gotta) Fight for Your Right (To Source Code)" DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 6:15:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6995237B407 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010906131522.UFKC10302.femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:15:22 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906090300.017cc7d0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:15:05 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) In-Reply-To: <15254.44951.324019.272341@guru.mired.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Funding, eh? * rubbing chin * So, do you guys need any representation? :-) --Chip Morton At 07:04 PM 9/5/2001, Mike Meyer wrote: >Whatever it takes to get funding. :-) > > >Technical Information types: > > Now I think we're beginning to see the real reason behind the delay in > > shipping 5.0-RELELASE. All our developers are secretly aspiring to join > > the next big boy band of the world. :-) > > > > --Chip Morton > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 7: 7:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CCD0F37B408 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 99558 invoked by uid 100); 6 Sep 2001 14:07:37 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15255.33577.367972.284194@guru.mired.org> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:07:37 -0500 To: Piet Delport Cc: Kris Kennaway , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid In-Reply-To: <20010906131141.B4157@athalon> References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> <20010906005600.A4157@athalon> <20010905161408.A80303@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010906131141.B4157@athalon> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Piet Delport types: > On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 at 16:14:08 -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:56:00AM +0200, Piet Delport wrote: > Which blows out of the water the idea that even if /bin/sh was too > vulnerable, other interpreters might be safe. Other interpreters just make the problem worse. Each scripting language has to provide all the facilities required to let people protect against all the problems. > Apparently the only exception to the above is perl (in the form of > suidperl or something), which is even used in the base system > (/usr/bin/keyinfo). First, perl isn't an exception. It's a lot safer than shell scripting because it can do real work without executing external code. It also provides "taint checking" which prevents you from accidently executing strings that came from the user. The latter is a major source of security holes in any programs with elevated privileges. But you still have to gaurd against the race condition problem. Second, keyinfo in the base system doesn't work in the default install. The suidperl program is installed with the suid bit off for security reasons. > I've also found the sudo package though, which seems to do achieve > roughly what i'm trying here, without the risk of setuid scripts. Neat. That's probably a good solution to your particular problem, yes. > So, next question, isn't it a good idea to mention this stuff in the > execve(2) (and/or chmod(1)) manpages, to prevent future confusion by > similar souls? Is this where i learn groff and join freebsd-doc? :) It would be nice if it were mentioned somewhere. It's just not clear where. But yeah, this would be a good starting point if yo want to contribute to the doc set. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 7:20:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.newgold.net (aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 89C1937B408 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33032 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Sep 2001 14:20:19 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:20:19 +0000 From: Joseph Mallett To: Warner Losh Cc: Michael Lucas , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Message-ID: <20010906142019.B32970@NewGold.NET> References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Organisation: New Gold Technology Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:22:24PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Michael Lucas writes: > : "Gong Show" anyone? Whoever lasts longest is hereby hailed as the > : Penultimate BSD of BSDCon? > > I'll have to dust off my parody of hotel california: > "next thing I remember, I was cvs | grep | more. > I had to put the change back to the code just like before" > I don't think it will win the eurosong contest for best free unix related song... In any case, I don't think it's fair with pre-done songs, you should have to take a request and parody that song on the spot! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 9: 7:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3D1637B403; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01655; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:07:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906100417.047fd2e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 10:04:47 -0600 To: Joseph Mallett , Warner Losh From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: Michael Lucas , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , "Bruce A. Mah" In-Reply-To: <20010906142019.B32970@NewGold.NET> References: <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:20 AM 9/6/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: >In any case, I don't think it's fair with pre-done songs, you should have >to take a request and parody that song on the spot! In science fiction circles, this is commonly known as an "instafilk." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 10:26:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8512E37B403 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15f2v5-0007B5-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:26:27 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f86HQRW29311 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:26:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:26:27 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know anything about the OS and apps NASA uses for computer/instrument/flight control? It must be pretty reliable, despite the occasional glitches we hear about. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 10:34:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp005pub.verizon.net (smtp005pub.verizon.net [206.46.170.184]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDD8037B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtp005pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id f86HYhW00929 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:34:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA56287; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:35:47 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Brad Knowles Cc: Michael Lucas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Message-ID: <20010906103547.C56182@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:22:59AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The rumor is that SUN and Apple will merge next. The new company will be called Snapple. Could you imagine OS X with a Solaris core? Has someone already done "Beastie in the Sky with Diamonds"? [RC] On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:22:59AM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:19 PM -0400 9/5/01, Michael Lucas wrote: > > > Of course, Apple has money, and could hire a real musician or two. > > We'd have to restrict this to actual BSD developers/contributors only. > > I bet Jordan and Mike could really get down if they had the > > motivation. > > Ahh, but would Jordan be representing his employer (Apple), or > the FreeBSD project? ;-) > > -- > Brad Knowles, > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 10:59: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDD837B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03097; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:57:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:57:35 -0600 To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? In-Reply-To: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wind River Systems makes a big deal in its press materials about NASA using its stuff, but I doubt that NASA goes with only one vendor for everything. --Brett At 11:26 AM 9/6/2001, j mckitrick wrote: >Does anyone know anything about the OS and apps NASA uses for >computer/instrument/flight control? It must be pretty reliable, despite the >occasional glitches we hear about. > >jm >-- >My other computer is your windows box. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 10:59:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ED0937B401 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03138; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:59:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115809.00c7fb10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:58:59 -0600 To: Robert Clark , Brad Knowles From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: Michael Lucas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010906103547.C56182@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:35 AM 9/6/2001, Robert Clark wrote: >Could you imagine OS X with a Solaris core? I'll bet it would core all the time. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 11:45:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.newgold.net (aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 082AD37B406 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4864 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Sep 2001 18:45:41 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:45:41 +0000 From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: Warner Losh , Michael Lucas , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Message-ID: <20010906184541.B87722@NewGold.NET> References: <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906100417.047fd2e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906100417.047fd2e0@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Organisation: New Gold Technology Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 10:04:47AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:20 AM 9/6/2001, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > >In any case, I don't think it's fair with pre-done songs, you should have > >to take a request and parody that song on the spot! > > In science fiction circles, this is commonly known as an "instafilk." That's frightening. I'd just call it 'freestylin' but that may/may not be accurate :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 11:49:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.newgold.net (aphex.newgold.net [209.42.222.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D0E137B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21715 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Sep 2001 18:49:13 -0000 Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:49:13 +0000 From: Joseph Mallett To: Brett Glass Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET> References: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.21i Organisation: New Gold Technology Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to someone I talked to at LinuxExpo '97, they used Debian Linux fairly widely. Take it for what it's worth, which is hearsay, but I got it from a hopefully reliable person. On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 11:57:35AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Wind River Systems makes a big deal in its press materials about NASA > using its stuff, but I doubt that NASA goes with only one vendor for > everything. > > --Brett > > At 11:26 AM 9/6/2001, j mckitrick wrote: > > > >Does anyone know anything about the OS and apps NASA uses for > >computer/instrument/flight control? It must be pretty reliable, despite the > >occasional glitches we hear about. > > > >jm > >-- > >My other computer is your windows box. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- -- Joseph A. Mallett http://srcsys.org xMach Core Team, www.xMach.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 12:36:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6EC37B403; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.168.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.168]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f86JZq524665; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B97D044.7DA64735@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 12:36:36 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warner Losh Cc: Michael Lucas , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Warner Losh wrote: > > In message <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> Michael Lucas writes: > : "Gong Show" anyone? Whoever lasts longest is hereby hailed as the > : Penultimate BSD of BSDCon? > > I'll have to dust off my parody of hotel california: > "next thing I remember, I was cvs | grep | more. > I had to put the change back to the code just like before" I could dust off "The LAN of Hello Subroutines"... In the proc where I was forked lived a main that was in C and it told us when to run on the LAN our subroutines So at SAIL on a SUN ... Of chorus... We all ran the Hello Subroutine The Hello Subroutine The Hello Subroutine -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 12:37:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7834337B403 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.168.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.168]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f86JbM502841; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B97D09F.E2D4B4E1@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 12:38:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010905184122.02aca708@threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technical Information wrote: > > Now I think we're beginning to see the real reason behind the delay in > shipping 5.0-RELELASE. All our developers are secretly aspiring to join > the next big boy band of the world. :-) Linux? -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 12:52:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59DB37B407; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 12:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04483; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:51:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906134830.00cb44a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:51:38 -0600 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Warner Losh From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: Michael Lucas , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , "Bruce A. Mah" In-Reply-To: <3B97D044.7DA64735@mindspring.com> References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:36 PM 9/6/2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > So at SAIL > on a SUN > ... SAIL? That takes me back. When I was at Stanford in 1983, they still ran DECSystem-20's.... The hackers there produced some truly classic song parodies. Here's one of my favorites from the LOTS song file: 26-Oct-86 20:21:15-PST,3756;000000000001 Mail-From: A.APPLEHACKS created at 26-Oct-86 20:21:14 Date: Sun 26 Oct 86 20:21:14-PST From: Ed Conger Subject: Here's one for G&S fans as well... To: songs@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU Address: P.O. Box 10131, Stanford CA 94305 (U.S. Snail) Domicile: Burbank Rm. 11 Phone: 322-6869 (Home) 725-2677 (Work) Message-ID: <12250036676.204.A.APPLEHACKS@HAMLET.STANFORD.EDU> It's to the tune of 'I am the very model of a modern major general'... Enjoy! -Ed. I've Built A Better Model Than The One At Data General [Lyrics: Heironymous Anonymous, Music: Arthur Sullivan] I've built a better model that the one at Data General, For databases vegetable, animal and mineral, My OS handles CPUs with multiplexed duality; My PL/1 compiler shows impressive functionality. My storage system's hotter than magnetic core polarity, You never have to bother checking out a bit for parity; There isn't any reason to install non-static floor matting; My disk drive has capacity for variable format-formatting. His disk drive has capacity for variable formatting, His disk drive has capacity for variable formatting, His disk drive has capacity for variable format-formatting. I feel compelled to mention what I know is a gloating point: There;s lots of room in memory for variables floating-point, Which shows for input vegetable, animal and mineral I've built a better model than the one a Data General. Which shows for input vegetable, animal and mineral He's built a better model than the one at Data General. The IBM new home computer's nothing more than germinal; At Prime they still have trouble with an interactive terminal; While Tandy's done a lousy job with operations Boolean At Wang the byte capacity's too small to fit a coolie in. Intel's finances are something of the trouble sort; The Timex-Sinclair crashes when you implement a bubble sort. All DEC investors soon will find they haven't spent their money well; And need I even mention Nixdorf, Univac or Honeywell? And need he even mention Nixdorf, Univac or Honeywell? And need he even mention Nixdorf, Univac or Honeywell? And need he even mention Nixdorf, Univac or Honey-Honeywell? By striving to eliminate all source code that's repetitive I've brought my benchmark standings to results that are competitive. In short, for input vegetable, animal and mineral I've built a better model that the one at Data General. In short, for input vegetable, animal and mineral He's built a better model than the one at Data General. In fact when I've a floppy of maximum diameter, When I can call a subroutine of infinite parameter, When I can point to registers and keep their current map around, And when I can preven the need for mystifying wraparound, When I can update record blocks with minimum of suffering, And when I can afford to use a hundred K for buffering, When I've performed a matrix sort and tested the addition reate, You'll marvel at the speed of my asynchronous transmission rate. You'll marvel at the speed of my asynchronous transmission rate. You'll marvel at the speed of my asynchronous transmission rate. You'll marvel at the speed of my asynchronous transmission-mission rate. Though all my better programs that self-reference recursively Have only been obtained through expert spying, done subversively, But still for input vegetable, animal and mineral, I've built a better model than the one at Data General. But still for input vegetable, animal and mineral, I've built a better model than the one at Data General. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 13:28:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C90937B405; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.244.104.168.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.244.104.168]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20969; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B97DC82.96189B49@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 13:28:50 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Mallett Cc: Warner Losh , Michael Lucas , John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Valentino Vaschetto , Ruslan Ermilov , Mike Silbersack , "Bruce A. Mah" Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) References: <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <200109052222.f85MMOh48599@harmony.village.org> <20010906142019.B32970@NewGold.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joseph Mallett wrote: > I don't think it will win the eurosong contest for best free unix related > song... And who could forget that Chumbawumba classic, "EarthLink"? I get logged out But I log in again You're never gonna keep the link down -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 13:34:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25AF537B40B for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5382B66D24; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:34:09 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Joseph Mallett Cc: Brett Glass , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="wULyF7TL5taEdwHz" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET>; from jmallett@NewGold.NET on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:49:13PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --wULyF7TL5taEdwHz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:49:13PM +0000, Joseph Mallett wrote: > According to someone I talked to at LinuxExpo '97, they used Debian Linux= =20 > fairly widely. Take it for what it's worth, which is hearsay, but I got i= t=20 > from a hopefully reliable person. I'm sure they don't use it for flight systems -- at least, I PRAY TO ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN that they don't :-) Kris --wULyF7TL5taEdwHz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7l93AWry0BWjoQKURAlroAKDz3MJ5Phgu77Ut5S1f06B3S6eOgACg4vth kno6Jv4mwkxcW8UDEy0bPuQ= =PBaC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --wULyF7TL5taEdwHz-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 13:58:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F1337B401 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 13:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA87268; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:58:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Mike Meyer Cc: Piet Delport , Kris Kennaway , Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Scripts and setuid References: <999708032.3b96558062cd2@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010905204055.A268@athalon> <20010905215258.A4304@hades.hell.gr> <20010906005600.A4157@athalon> <20010905161408.A80303@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010906131141.B4157@athalon> <15255.33577.367972.284194@guru.mired.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 06 Sep 2001 22:58:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <15255.33577.367972.284194@guru.mired.org> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Meyer writes: > First, perl isn't an exception. It's a lot safer than shell scripting > because it can do real work without executing external code. It also > provides "taint checking" which prevents you from accidently executing > strings that came from the user. Taint checks also prevent you from opening or deleting files whose names were constructed from strings taken from the environment, command line, or user input, or read from a file. They also prevent you from calling exec() or system() with an insecure $PATH (for some definition of "insecure"). There are of course mechanisms to circumvent these checks for strings that the programmer is certain are safe (regexp match variables don't inherit taint from the string the regexp was matched against). One other advantage of Perl is that it isn't vulnerable to IFS tickling. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 14:20:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9437237B415; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA06030; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3B97DC82.96189B49@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:20:12 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Mike Silbersack , Ruslan Ermilov , Valentino Vaschetto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, Michael Lucas , Warner Losh , Joseph Mallett Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Sep-01 Terry Lambert wrote: > Joseph Mallett wrote: >> I don't think it will win the eurosong contest for best free unix related >> song... > > And who could forget that Chumbawumba classic, "EarthLink"? > > I get logged out > But I log in again > You're never gonna keep the link down ROTFL!! That's too much... -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 15:28:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA1237B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15f7dX-0003aV-00; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:28:39 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f86MSd031618; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:28:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:28:39 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Joseph Mallett , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010906232838.A31571@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET> <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:34:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:34:09PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: | On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:49:13PM +0000, Joseph Mallett wrote: | > According to someone I talked to at LinuxExpo '97, they used Debian Linux | > fairly widely. Take it for what it's worth, which is hearsay, but I got it | > from a hopefully reliable person. | | I'm sure they don't use it for flight systems -- at least, I PRAY TO | ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN that they don't :-) I wonder what window manager they use... jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 16:46:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from web13608.mail.yahoo.com (web13608.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.119]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A62B937B401 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010906234632.69025.qmail@web13608.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13608.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Sep 2001 16:46:32 PDT Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:46:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: surprise: he finds FreeBSD is a better OS To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org from Byte Blabber Centre http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1267/byt20010829s0001/0903_moshe.html I found, with little surprise, that the FreeBSD system of "ports collection," which lets you get updated precompiled binaries from the standard FTP servers around the world in a secure way and have it installed automatically, far outperforms the Red Hat update agent (which on top of all things is subscription based and therefore costs you money). When you work remotely, it is important that these updates work flawlessly and don't leave your machine in an undefined or broken state. The Red Hat update agent in a few occasions failed to resolve dependencies correctly and only half-installed the necessary binaries or sources. The FreeBSD system always correctly installed or denied to install subsystems. Also, the "make world" compile-everything option in FreeBSD comes in very handy when you download sources and then leave the server up to itself for a few hours to recompile everything freshly. I logged in the next day and found everything working perfectly. I also advise you to turn on softupdates (for faster files metadata operation, in some cases up to 2000% faster) and increase the "maxusers" parameter. ACS Datanet provided me with a 256-MB RAM, 30-GB disk, 900-MHz CPU box for the FreeBSD server, and so the "maxusers" really makes things go faster. Once everything was fixed and tuned, I found the FreeBSD to often outshine the Linux servers. The more I use FreeBSD the more I like it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 16:47: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from inconnu.isu.edu (inconnu.isu.edu [134.50.8.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5084337B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (galt@localhost) by inconnu.isu.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f86NjmN01481; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:45:48 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:45:47 -0600 (MDT) From: John Galt To: j mckitrick Cc: Kris Kennaway , Joseph Mallett , Brett Glass , Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? In-Reply-To: <20010906232838.A31571@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: galt@inconnu.isu.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, j mckitrick wrote: >On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:34:09PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: >| On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:49:13PM +0000, Joseph Mallett wrote: >| > According to someone I talked to at LinuxExpo '97, they used Debian Linux >| > fairly widely. Take it for what it's worth, which is hearsay, but I got it >| > from a hopefully reliable person. >| >| I'm sure they don't use it for flight systems -- at least, I PRAY TO >| ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN that they don't :-) > >I wonder what window manager they use... F-15VWM? A-10fterstep? B-52lackbox? > > > > >jm > -- * You are not expected to understand this. --comment from Unix system 6 source, credited to Lions and Johnson Who is John Galt? galt@inconnu.isu.edu, that's who: finger me for GPG key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 18:10: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5633F37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b024.otenet.gr [195.167.121.152]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f8719nA26707; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:09:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f871ACZ09509; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:10:12 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:10:11 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: John Galt Cc: j mckitrick , Kris Kennaway , Joseph Mallett , Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010907041011.B8700@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010906232838.A31571@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from galt@inconnu.isu.edu on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:45:47PM -0600 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: John Galt Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Date: Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 05:45:47PM -0600 > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > > >On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:34:09PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >| On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:49:13PM +0000, Joseph Mallett wrote: > >| > According to someone I talked to at LinuxExpo '97, they used Debian Linux > >| > fairly widely. Take it for what it's worth, which is hearsay, but I got it > >| > from a hopefully reliable person. > >| > >| I'm sure they don't use it for flight systems -- at least, I PRAY TO > >| ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN that they don't :-) > > > >I wonder what window manager they use... > > F-15VWM? A-10fterstep? B-52lackbox? Most likely S-300awfish is among the options too :-) At least if Russians are involved in the plot. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 18:12:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3528737B406 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b024.otenet.gr [195.167.121.152]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f871CNA28105; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:12:23 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f871CoD09577; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:12:50 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 04:12:50 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Joseph Mallett , Brett Glass , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010907041249.C8700@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET> <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org>; from kris@obsecurity.org on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:34:09PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Date: Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:34:09PM -0700 > On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:49:13PM +0000, Joseph Mallett wrote: > > According to someone I talked to at LinuxExpo '97, they used Debian Linux > > fairly widely. Take it for what it's worth, which is hearsay, but I got it > > from a hopefully reliable person. > > I'm sure they don't use it for flight systems -- at least, I PRAY TO > ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN that they don't :-) Would you rather they used (horrors) Windows? This is a reference to the story I had read somewhere about US Navy migrating ship-control systems to NT. I seem to have failed locating the URL again, but if I find it, it'll be posted here :-P /me runs to hide -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 18:38:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obsecurity.dyndns.org (adsl-63-207-60-54.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net [63.207.60.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C6F37B406 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by obsecurity.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3655366D0A; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:38:51 -0700 From: Kris Kennaway To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: Kris Kennaway , Joseph Mallett , Brett Glass , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010906183851.B44542@xor.obsecurity.org> References: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET> <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010907041249.C8700@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010907041249.C8700@hades.hell.gr>; from charon@labs.gr on Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 04:12:50AM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 04:12:50AM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > I'm sure they don't use it for flight systems -- at least, I PRAY TO > > ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN that they don't :-) >=20 > Would you rather they used (horrors) Windows? I'd rather they use a robust special-purpose OS designed for real-time systems control. I'm sure they do this..any use of Linux (or FreeBSD) would probably be limited to support roles. Kris --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7mCUqWry0BWjoQKURAiQ1AKDKkHQeySl7kCCh38X2o/Zknb90PQCfe8Tb eJatlxI+artvPq4L4qdFYnk= =nrOx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BOKacYhQ+x31HxR3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 18:40:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net [207.44.96.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F86A37B405 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24194 invoked by uid 50005); 7 Sep 2001 01:39:52 -0000 Received: from tms2@mail.ptd.net by smtpe with qmail-scanner-1.00 (uvscan: v4.1.40/v4155. . Clean. Processed in 1.264654 secs); 07 Sep 2001 01:39:52 -0000 Received: from mail1.ha-net.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([207.44.96.65]) (envelope-sender ) by smtpe.ha-net.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Sep 2001 01:39:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 11950 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2001 01:40:02 -0000 Received: from du211.cli.ptd.net (HELO mail.ptd.net) ([204.186.33.211]) (envelope-sender ) by mail.ptd.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 7 Sep 2001 01:40:02 -0000 Message-ID: <3B98258F.B9DE41FC@mail.ptd.net> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:40:31 -0400 From: "T.M. Sommers" Organization: None X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 4.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? References: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET> <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010906232838.A31571@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 01:34:09PM -0700, Kris Kennaway wrote: > | On Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:49:13PM +0000, Joseph Mallett wrote: > | > According to someone I talked to at LinuxExpo '97, they used Debian Linux > | > fairly widely. Take it for what it's worth, which is hearsay, but I got it > | > from a hopefully reliable person. > | > | I'm sure they don't use it for flight systems -- at least, I PRAY TO > | ALMIGHTY GOD IN HEAVEN that they don't :-) > > I wonder what window manager they use... I don't think opening windows on the space shuttle is a terribly good idea. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 19:44:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-57-209.knology.net [24.214.57.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F57C37B401 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f872htw89354; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 21:43:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200109070243.f872htw89354@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? In-reply-to: Message from Giorgos Keramidas of "Fri, 07 Sep 2001 04:12:50 +0300." <20010907041249.C8700@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 21:43:55 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > > This is a reference to the story I had read somewhere about US Navy > migrating ship-control systems to NT. I seem to have failed locating > the URL again, but if I find it, it'll be posted here :-P First hit Yahoo! turned up on "+navy +nt +ship +towed" http://www.info-sec.com/OSsec/OSsec_080498g_j.shtml In all fairness to NT the failure was in the Navy's software and not Microsoft's. Then again some claim an advantage of Windows is the ability to use personnel of lower skills. And some believe "garbage in, garbage out." -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 22:25: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from server1.lordlegacy.org (lordlegacy.org [209.61.182.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D526637B403 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 22:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sharon ([216.13.207.127]) by server1.lordlegacy.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19213; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:34:24 -0500 From: "Stephen Hurd" To: "Brett Glass" , "j mckitrick" , Subject: RE: NASA's Operating System? Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:28:44 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Wind River Systems makes a big deal in its press materials about NASA > using its stuff, but I doubt that NASA goes with only one vendor for > everything. something I ran across years ago... and it's actually still there! http://www.cantrip.org/leap.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 6 23:27: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E12A37B403 for ; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 23:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA11061; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:25:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010907002442.00ca6d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 00:25:26 -0600 To: "Stephen Hurd" , "j mckitrick" , From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: NASA's Operating System? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:28 PM 9/6/2001, Stephen Hurd wrote: >http://www.cantrip.org/leap.html Hmmm. Maybe it's time for a BEAP. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 0:17: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gadolinium.btinternet.com (gadolinium.btinternet.com [194.73.73.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3622137B406 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [213.122.124.16] (helo=fluoxetine.lan) by gadolinium.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #6) id 15fFsr-00010R-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:17:02 +0100 Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:18:14 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew McKay To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: NASA's Operating System? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org SH> something I ran across years ago... and it's actually still there! SH> SH> http://www.cantrip.org/leap.html 'We can put linux in (permanent) Orbit!' Can they take RMS with them? -- Andrew McKay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 0:58:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29BDA37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f877wXk19789; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:58:33 +0200 (CEST) To: Mike Meyer Subject: Re: Good practice for /tmp Message-ID: <999849513.3b987e2986344@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:58:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: chat@freebsd.org References: <999807502.3b97da0e9af9f@webmail.neomedia.it> <15255.61590.455896.440737@guru.mired.org> <999814880.3b97f6e003967@webmail.neomedia.it> <15256.3384.39546.241663@guru.mired.org> In-Reply-To: <15256.3384.39546.241663@guru.mired.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.236.150 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected 'cause it's probably OT ] Scrive Mike Meyer : > Salvo Bartolotta types: > > > While it's certainly correct that the system runs better with swap - > a > > > minimum of 256MB is recommended by tuning(7) - that doesn't mean it > > > absolutely has to have any swap at all. > > IIRC, some people complained about FreeBSD always using swap. I can ^^^^ ^^^^ > now assume > > there is no such "problem". > > This sounds like a FAQ. In particular, this one: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#MORE-SWAP Actually, I said IIRC, **not** IRC. :-) I recall reading (on some FreeBSD **mailing** list) messages about VM -- the tendency to always swap, even in machines with a large amount of RAM. The important point is that systems can not only be _configured_ to work without any swap, but they can also be _used_ without any swap -- namely, there seem to exist no related anomalies/bugs. BTW, I have a junk^Wworkstation with 384 MB of RAM (soon to become a, er, dual system, with 512+MB RAM); while my interest in the subject was theoretical, er, it was NOT purely theoretical. However, in such cases, IIUC the best choice is probably an amount of swap sligthly larger then that of RAM. Whether it applies to graphs or vector spaces, to projective geometry entities or... processors, the concept of duality is all-pervasive nowadays. :-) -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 2: 6:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85CE37B403 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 02:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a089.otenet.gr [212.205.215.89]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f8796YA24738; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:06:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f874Dn801185; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:13:49 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 07:13:48 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Message-ID: <20010907071348.A1167@hades.hell.gr> References: <200109070243.f872htw89354@grumpy.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200109070243.f872htw89354@grumpy.dyndns.org>; from dkelly@hiwaay.net on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 09:43:55PM -0500 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: David Kelly Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? Date: Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 09:43:55PM -0500 > Giorgos Keramidas writes: > > > > This is a reference to the story I had read somewhere about US Navy > > migrating ship-control systems to NT. I seem to have failed locating > > the URL again, but if I find it, it'll be posted here :-P > > First hit Yahoo! turned up on "+navy +nt +ship +towed" > http://www.info-sec.com/OSsec/OSsec_080498g_j.shtml > > In all fairness to NT the failure was in the Navy's software and not > Microsoft's. Then again some claim an advantage of Windows is the > ability to use personnel of lower skills. And some believe "garbage in, > garbage out." This is what I was looking for, yes. I'll read the article again, because it left me with an impression that 'it was all NT's fault'. Just about time I got some extra sleep, I guess. Thanks for looking this up... -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 5:42:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from venice.iwaynet.net (venice.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1936637B401 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (IDENT:nobody@venice.iwaynet.net [198.30.29.17]) by venice.iwaynet.net (8.12.0.Beta19/8.12.0.Beta19) with ESMTP id f87CihjN011077; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:44:43 -0400 Received: from 204.210.226.249 ( [204.210.226.249]) as user cfuhrman@pop.iwaynet.net by webmail.iwaynet.net with HTTP; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:44:43 -0400 Message-ID: <999866683.3b98c13b61a96@webmail.iwaynet.net> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:44:43 -0400 From: cfuhrman@iwaynet.net To: Robert Clark Cc: Brad Knowles , Michael Lucas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "FreeBSD" (was Re: cvs commit: src/share/man/man9 mutex.9) References: <20010905172545.A33603@blackhelicopters.org> <20010905181947.A33657@blackhelicopters.org> <20010906103547.C56182@darkstar.gte.net> In-Reply-To: <20010906103547.C56182@darkstar.gte.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 2.3.7-cvs X-Originating-IP: 204.210.226.249 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Robert Clark : > Has someone already done "Beastie in the Sky with Diamonds"? ${DIETY} forbid it have ANYTHING to do with William Shatner... > > [RC] > - Chris Fuhrman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 6: 7:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funnel.cisco.com (funnel.cisco.com [161.44.131.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C46037B407 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bmcgover-pc.cisco.com (bmcgover-pc.cisco.com [161.44.149.69]) by funnel.cisco.com (8.8.5-Cisco.1/8.6.5) with ESMTP id JAA08380 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bmcgover-pc.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by bmcgover-pc.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f87D3ur05167 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:03:57 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bmcgover@bmcgover-pc.cisco.com) Message-Id: <200109071303.f87D3ur05167@bmcgover-pc.cisco.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NASA's Operating system? Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:03:56 -0400 From: "Brian J. McGovern" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Flight control? Heh, the Shuttle uses systems probably 30 years old. I can't believe the ISS would be far ahead of it ;) Seriously, having worked in the industry, flight control code/hardware of any kind is beaten to extreems before its ever actually used. At our weekly projects for an autopilot system, the saying was "We don't ship until everyone in this room would strap themselves in and go for a ride.". The number of cycles spent on QA was astronomical, especially compared to the normal amount spent on today's software. As far as hardware, if I remember, the shuttle has 5 interconnected special purpose systems to do flight management. The interface and displays are cryptic, and actually quite entertaining trying to figure out how to read (IN 75 MOD 7 ENT, to turn on the lights, anyone?). If anyone is actually interested, I can try to dig out some docs I have at home, and get a more accurate description of the system. -Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 6:32:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from d06lmsgate.uk.ibm.COM (d06lmsgate.uk.ibm.com [195.212.29.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED0037B403 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.166.84.147]) by d06lmsgate.uk.ibm.COM (1.0.0) with ESMTP id OAA117212 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:12:50 +0100 Received: from d09ml006.mul.ie.ibm.com (d09ml006.mul.ie.ibm.com [9.166.161.63]) by d06relay01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.11.1m3/NCO v4.97.1) with ESMTP id f87DWFd194650 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:32:17 +0100 Importance: Normal Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.5 September 22, 2000 Message-ID: From: "Keith M McDonnell" Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:31:53 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D09ML006/09/M/IBM(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 07/09/2001 14:32:17 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all , I think nasa use forth for mission critical components . http://forth.gsfc.nasa.gov/ Regards kmcd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 8:36:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from omega.lovett.com (omega.lovett.com [209.249.90.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D6437B409 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.lovett.com ([66.25.157.243] helo=klendathu.lovett.com ident=ident) by omega.lovett.com with esmtp (Exim 3.31 #1) id 15fNgP-0003fw-00; Fri, 07 Sep 2001 08:36:42 -0700 Received: from ade by klendathu.lovett.com with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15fNgP-0002BF-00; Fri, 07 Sep 2001 10:36:41 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:36:41 -0500 From: Ade Lovett To: "Brian J. McGovern" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NASA's Operating system? Message-ID: <20010907103641.A8088@FreeBSD.org> References: <200109071303.f87D3ur05167@bmcgover-pc.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200109071303.f87D3ur05167@bmcgover-pc.cisco.com>; from bmcgover@cisco.com on Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 09:03:56AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 09:03:56AM -0400, Brian J. McGovern wrote: > (IN 75 MOD 7 ENT, to turn on the lights, anyone?). Sounds like my car stereo system. -aDe -- Ade Lovett, Austin, TX. ade@FreeBSD.org FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 9:22:21 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wrs.com (unknown-1-11.windriver.com [147.11.1.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7875F37B41E for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@[147.11.46.201]) by mail.wrs.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25832; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 09:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200109071303.f87D3ur05167@bmcgover-pc.cisco.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:22:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Brian J. McGovern" Subject: Re: NASA's Operating system? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Sep-01 Brian J. McGovern wrote: > Flight control? Heh, the Shuttle uses systems probably 30 years old. I can't > believe the ISS would be far ahead of it ;) ISS is using NT according to the logs and having problems with Exchange. :) So it can't be but so old. They also have wireless networking on the ISS according to the logs. > As far as hardware, if I remember, the shuttle has 5 interconnected special > purpose systems to do flight management. The interface and displays are > cryptic, and actually quite entertaining trying to figure out how to read > (IN 75 MOD 7 ENT, to turn on the lights, anyone?). Didn't they just replace the displays at least with 4 LCD displays that are supposed to be more intuitive, etc.? -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 10:49:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from heorot.1nova.com (heorot.1nova.com [63.105.24.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD5037B406 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 4D36E18EB; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by heorot.1nova.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4472B18EA; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:50:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Rick Hamell To: "Brian J. McGovern" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NASA's Operating system? In-Reply-To: <200109071303.f87D3ur05167@bmcgover-pc.cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As far as hardware, if I remember, the shuttle has 5 interconnected special > purpose systems to do flight management. The interface and displays are > cryptic, and actually quite entertaining trying to figure out how to read > (IN 75 MOD 7 ENT, to turn on the lights, anyone?). > > If anyone is actually interested, I can try to dig out some docs I have at > home, and get a more accurate description of the system. I ran across an article somewhere that talks about upgrading the Columbia's computers, in preperation to do the rest. They're all digital these days with touch screens. Unluckily I can't find that link either! :( But it was in relation to the next Hubble upgrade.... Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 11:20:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC7E37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 11:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17163; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:20:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010907121832.00cec790@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 12:20:23 -0600 To: "T.M. Sommers" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? In-Reply-To: <3B98258F.B9DE41FC@mail.ptd.net> References: <20010906182627.C29203@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010906115638.00c7f100@localhost> <20010906184913.D87722@NewGold.NET> <20010906133409.D18228@xor.obsecurity.org> <20010906232838.A31571@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:40 PM 9/6/2001, T.M. Sommers wrote: >I don't think opening windows on the space shuttle is a terribly good >idea. "Don't open up the cabin hatch, The air is sure to leave it. And air is very hard to catch; You never will retrieve it. And though you think that life's a bore, Don't open the reactor door...." --Frank Hayes, "Never Set the Cat on Fire" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 15:30:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0302837B403 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 15:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b096.otenet.gr [195.167.121.224]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f87MUKA16319 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:30:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f87M46G13581 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:04:06 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:04:05 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: cat(1) strangeness when '-' and options are combined Message-ID: <20010908010405.A13448@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The manpage of cat(1) says that an argument of '-' is interpreted as the filename of 'stdin'. The cat(1) source uses getopt() to parse its args, and '-' has a special meaning for getopt too. This makes cat(1) act in a seemingly strange manner in the following cases: -:- Running cat(1) without *any* command line switches If one runs cat as shown below: % cat - /etc/fstab - Then both '-' occurences are considered to be filenames, and you have to press once ^D before fstab is displayed, and once more after it's printed to stdout, to exit cat. -:- Running cat(1) with similar command line including some switches % cat -b - /etc/fstab - In this case, the first '-' is eaten up by getopt() after the parsing of -b option. The first '-' is taken by getopt() to mean 'the end of command line options'. Thus, cat numbers all non-blank lines (the -b option), but works as if it was called with: % cat /etc/fstab - This is not a bug, since it is the documented way that getopt() works. However, it seems to be somewhat confusing :-( What do the standards-people have to say about this? -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 19:14:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2317137B405 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 58608756B; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559931D89; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cat(1) strangeness when '-' and options are combined In-Reply-To: <20010908010405.A13448@hades.hell.gr> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: :The manpage of cat(1) says that an argument of '-' is interpreted as :the filename of 'stdin'. The cat(1) source uses getopt() to parse its :args, and '-' has a special meaning for getopt too. This makes cat(1) :act in a seemingly strange manner in the following cases: : :-:- Running cat(1) without *any* command line switches : :If one runs cat as shown below: : : % cat - /etc/fstab - : :Then both '-' occurences are considered to be filenames, and you have :to press once ^D before fstab is displayed, and once more after it's :printed to stdout, to exit cat. : :-:- Running cat(1) with similar command line including some switches : : % cat -b - /etc/fstab - : :In this case, the first '-' is eaten up by getopt() after the parsing :of -b option. The first '-' is taken by getopt() to mean 'the end of :command line options'. Thus, cat numbers all non-blank lines (the -b :option), but works as if it was called with: : : % cat /etc/fstab - : :This is not a bug, since it is the documented way that getopt() works. :However, it seems to be somewhat confusing :-( : :What do the standards-people have to say about this? It works exactly as I'd expect it to, see below: 7:14pm moo /home/ragnar %cat -- /etc/fstab # Device Mountpoint FStype Options Dump Pass# /dev/wd0s1b none swap sw 0 0 /dev/wd0s1a / ufs rw 1 1 /dev/wd0s1f /usr ufs rw 2 2 /dev/wd0s1e /var ufs rw 2 2 proc /proc procfs rw 0 0 Like many utilies, you need the -- because a single - is a valid filename in unix. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 19:58:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7D037B405 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 19:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b024.otenet.gr [195.167.121.152]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f882wCA14627; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 05:58:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f882vu219327; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 05:57:56 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 05:57:56 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cat(1) strangeness when '-' and options are combined Message-ID: <20010908055755.A16153@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010908010405.A13448@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from ragnar@sysabend.org on Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 07:16:16PM -0700 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Jamie Bowden Subject: Re: cat(1) strangeness when '-' and options are combined Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 07:16:16PM -0700 > On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > :The manpage of cat(1) says that an argument of '-' is interpreted as > :the filename of 'stdin'. The cat(1) source uses getopt() to parse its > :args, and '-' has a special meaning for getopt too. This makes cat(1) > :act in a seemingly strange manner in the following cases: > : > :-:- Running cat(1) without *any* command line switches > : > :-:- Running cat(1) with similar command line including some switches > : > :This is not a bug, since it is the documented way that getopt() works. > :However, it seems to be somewhat confusing :-( > : > :What do the standards-people have to say about this? > > It works exactly as I'd expect it to, see below: > > 7:14pm moo /home/ragnar %cat -- /etc/fstab > # Device Mountpoint FStype Options Dump > Pass# > /dev/wd0s1b none swap sw 0 0 > /dev/wd0s1a / ufs rw 1 1 > /dev/wd0s1f /usr ufs rw 2 2 > /dev/wd0s1e /var ufs rw 2 2 > proc /proc procfs rw 0 0 > > Like many utilies, you need the -- because a single - is a valid filename > in unix. Nope, there was absolutely no place where I used a 'double' dash. Please read again what I wrote. I think you're somehow missing the point I tried to make. A single '-' is internally interpreted by the code in src/bin/cat/cat.c as a valid filename referring to "stdin". 220 if (*argv) { 221 if (!strcmp(*argv, "-")) 222 fd = fileno(stdin); 223 else if ((fd = open(*argv, O_RDONLY, 0)) < 0) { ... 228 } 229 filename = *argv++; That interpretation, however, changes slightly when at least one switch has been given that starts with '-' because getopt seems to eat the first '-' and stops at the first command line arg that does /not/ start with '-'. I was probably unclear in what I said. If you invoke cat like this: % cat - /etc/fstab - you have to press ^D *twice*. The first '-' is left intact by getopt() [probably because it isn't followed by any 'switches'] and then translated as a reference to "stdin" by cat. When you press ^D once, /etc/fstab is printed, and a second '-' is again assumed to be stdin. Pressin ^D again stops that too, and the command finishes successfully. If at least one option is given to cat though before the first '-', then cat stops waiting for input from stdin, and upon a *single* press of ^D /etc/fstab is printed and cat terminates. A sample of this can be seen when you try running: % cat -n - /etc/fstab - What I meant to ask (hopefully more clear this time) is: Is this something that one can rely upon as 'standard' getopt() / cat behavior. One of those '-' arguments is interpreted in different ways depending on whether at least one switch has been passed to cat. Of course I can always use: % cat -n -- - /etc/fstab - and have the exact same behavior as the first command (plus the extra feature of having all line snumbered), but the difference in those two first commands still exists. I am going to have access to a GNU/Linux box in a few minutes, and test it there too with their getopt() and cat. /me hides again, still puzzled -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 20:10:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC01337B408 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-b024.otenet.gr [195.167.121.152]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f883A7A20203; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 06:10:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f883AYu19484; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 06:10:35 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 06:10:34 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Jamie Bowden Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cat(1) strangeness when '-' and options are combined Message-ID: <20010908061034.A19365@hades.hell.gr> References: <20010908010405.A13448@hades.hell.gr> <20010908055755.A16153@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010908055755.A16153@hades.hell.gr>; from charon@labs.gr on Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 05:57:56AM +0300 X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3A 75 52 EB F1 58 56 0D - C5 B8 21 B6 1B 5E 4A C2 X-URL: http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~keramida/index.html Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Giorgos Keramidas Subject: Re: cat(1) strangeness when '-' and options are combined Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 05:57:56AM +0300 Replying to own post, after doing an extra bit of research. > From: Jamie Bowden > Subject: Re: cat(1) strangeness when '-' and options are combined > Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 07:16:16PM -0700 > > If you invoke cat like this: > > % cat - /etc/fstab - > > If at least one option is given to cat though before the first '-', ... > > % cat -n - /etc/fstab - > > I am going to have access to a GNU/Linux box in a few minutes, and > test it there too with their getopt() and cat. As I suspected, the behavior of Linux utils on these two commands is different. In both cases, cat reads data from stdin *twice*, expecting two ^D presses to finish successfully. On the other hand, the two commands shown above, behave exactly like FreeBSD when they are executed in Solaris 7 running on a sun4u machine that I could ssh to. Ok, now I really need some sleep and a cup of strong black coffee. Or someone to point me in the correct direction, be it "you are wrong for [this] and [that] reason", or "hmmm, this is truly weird, fix it yourself and make it behave [this] or [that] way and send us a patch". -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 7 20:25:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from grumpy.dyndns.org (user-24-214-57-209.knology.net [24.214.57.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BA3C37B401 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 20:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grumpy.dyndns.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f883Oow82902; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 22:24:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@grumpy.dyndns.org) Message-Id: <200109080324.f883Oow82902@grumpy.dyndns.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: NASA's Operating System? In-reply-to: Message from Giorgos Keramidas of "Fri, 07 Sep 2001 07:13:48 +0300." <20010907071348.A1167@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 22:24:50 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas writes: > From: David Kelly > > > > In all fairness to NT the failure was in the Navy's software and not > > Microsoft's. Then again some claim an advantage of Windows is the > > ability to use personnel of lower skills. And some believe "garbage in, > > garbage out." > > This is what I was looking for, yes. I'll read the article again, > because it left me with an impression that 'it was all NT's fault'. Several of the reports erroniously tried to blame it all on NT. The problem is higher up the chain of command. If software tries to divide by zero and hasn't set error handlers to catch the situation beforehand then it is correct for the OS to dump the process. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 8 1:42:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.quidel.com (webmail.quidel.com [63.125.144.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACE7F37B409 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 01:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.quidel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:54:37 -0700 Message-ID: <9D4A4E19244ED4119BE90050DAD5DD47BC5669@mail.quidel.com> From: Etienne de Bruin To: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: test ignore please Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:54:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 8 8: 5:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zsh.profile.sh (rdu57-31-178.nc.rr.com [66.57.31.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F26237B406 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (ksh [10.0.0.7]) by zsh.profile.sh (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9AA1252A for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:05:37 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v388) From: thomas@stromberg.org To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.388) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD Stickers? Where? Message-Id: <20010908150542.DD9AA1252A@zsh.profile.sh> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now that freebsdmall.com looks to be dried up, where does one pick up FreeBSD stickers? I've looked far and low, and asked on #FreeBSD, but no one seems to have an answer. I got a new car, that is unfortunately a virgin, and needs a nice big FreeBSD sticker to go by the white Apple sticker. I've only got 4 tiny stickers left from FreeBSD, all of the larger ones are on my 2001 RANS Rocket. Will FreeBSD 4.4 come with stickers? If so, it's worth the money. Otherwise, I intend to buy a set of 20 or so sheets of stickers this time, just in case. Here's the synopsis Think Geek: International BSD sticker - http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/stickers/28e9.shtml (ordering) BSD Central: none FreeBSDmall: dead EBay: none thomas stromberg systems guru / unemployment specialist 919-412-8530 "Good news is just life's way of keeping you off balance." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message