From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 1:33:27 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sonata.leads4less.com (H146.C206.tor.velocet.net [216.138.206.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB81037B40C; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 01:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BRIAN (brian.leads4less.com [192.168.0.2]) by sonata.leads4less.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f8U8XGW10447; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 04:33:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from bmirkalami@leads4less.com) From: "Seyed Bahram Mirkalami" To: , Subject: FreeBSD training in the Toronto area??? Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 04:33:20 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C14969.0839BD40" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C14969.0839BD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all: If you know of any schools/colleges that offer FreeBSD administration Course in or around Toronto, please let me know. Regards Seyed Bahram (Brian) Mirkalami Leads4less.com Inc. ------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C14969.0839BD40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=20 all:
 
If you = know of any=20 schools/colleges that offer FreeBSD administration Course in or around = Toronto,=20 please let me know.
 
Regards
Seyed Bahram (Brian) = Mirkalami
Leads4less.com Inc.
 
------=_NextPart_000_01BE_01C14969.0839BD40-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 2:14:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DD837B40E for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-45-115.dial.proxad.net [212.27.45.115]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39B38AB236 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:14:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 525 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Sep 2001 08:59:55 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:59:55 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930105955.B352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:57:06PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 21:57:06: > > You *may* be thinking of forehead markings worn for religious reasons > > which tend to vary among castes (eg, Iyengars in the south have a > > peculiar style, and this is sported only by the men, not the women). > > These are increasingly rare even in India except in traditional > > settings and religious occasions, so while I could be charitable and > > assume that you were thinking of some such thing, > > This is, in fact, the case, at least for the examples I was > giving, according to the examples themselves ...as I pointed > out in a previous email. In that case I'm interested in knowing what exactly they are. As I said earlier, such caste-specific marks are worn normally by men, and increasingly only on religious occasions. It would be pretty rare to see them in the workplace even in India. I can't imagine seeing 3 on the same day in the same workplace in America. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 2:14:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9D037B408 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-45-115.dial.proxad.net [212.27.45.115]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61846AB273 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:14:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 558 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Sep 2001 09:08:19 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:08:19 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930110818.C352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930003318.A384@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A529.1C45D0EF@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB6A529.1C45D0EF@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:52:57PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 21:52:57: > Good answer to a parenthetical observation, while ducking > the main point, which was that India's society has been > historically segregated, and that this is the root of many > of the social ills which we do not see frequently in the > U.S., erm.... US society has been historically segregated too, and this was enforced by law until the 1960s in many states (at least in India legal support for such segregation has not existed since independence). I think if you haven't been living under your rock you'll agree that American society isn't free of the consequent social ills. Here's another "ad hominem attack" (not a good term because it's an attack on your writings, I haven't met you in person). I initially got into this argument because I seriously wanted to correct what you were saying. Now I'm just curious to see how far you will go to defend your views. The results are quite interesting ("Saddam will gas his people anyway", "Israel will destroy the middle east if America doesn't control it", "we do not see social ills [such as segregation] in the US", etc). Apparently you believe everything you read, provided the CIA wrote it. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 2:15:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55AED37B408 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 02:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-45-115.dial.proxad.net [212.27.45.115]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B3EAB1AE for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:15:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 503 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Sep 2001 08:57:46 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:57:46 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930105746.A352@lpt.ens.fr> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 10:03:58PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 22:03:58: > > PS: I will happily listen to your alternative theories as to why > there is continued ethnic and religious violence in India; For much the same reasons there is everywhere else in the world, including the US. Much of it historical enmities, generated by religious bigotry, of all religions. As I said in another mail in this thread, I consider all ideologies, religious and otherwise, to be bad things. However, religion is so deeply embedded in the world that it's hard to dislodge it. But that's a separate topic altogether. > language sources (there's a dearth of Tamil, Devengari, and other > Indic script writing on the subject on the Internet, There's a dearth, yes. Though the amount of Tamil writing is increasingly large, and several Hindi magazines now do have web sites. One reason is that most Indians who are likely to have internet access do speak English; and most internet news sites were originally set up to cater to Indians abroad, the domestic audience has grown only in the last 2-3 years. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 3:18:25 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82DE737B40B for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 03:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-6-8-78.dial.proxad.net [213.228.8.78]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E462AB24F for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:18:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 808 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Sep 2001 10:16:38 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:16:38 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , paul@freebsd-services.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930121638.A757@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927205547.B69066@lpt.ens.fr> <20010927192517.AAA2063@shell.webmaster.com@whenever> <20010927213312.C69066@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB43B65.C3ED251F@mindspring.com> <20010928142314.B7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB61126.3321A396@mindspring.com> <20010930003647.A501@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A2FD.D6546160@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BB6A2FD.D6546160@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:43:41PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Sep 29, 2001 at 21:43:41: > In fact, any country which has a patent system supports the > idea of regulated monopolies. Well, ok, but your earlier mail talked about antitrust, and cases where monopolies were broken up for the good of the economic system. > Any time you have any regulation whatsoever, you do not have > a free market: free markets have no constraints. This is the first time I've heard that. Most economic literature I've read, and economists I know, recognise that in the absence of constraints, monopolies are likely to grow. The government has a role in a free-market economy; that role is to provide a level playing field which enables competition to arise, rather than to dictate to or control companies and their production. (I think this goes all the way back to Adam Smith in the 18th century, actually.) Antitrust is part of that role of the government, not a negation of free markets. Other monopolies, such as railways and post, and your examples of professional baseball and AT&T (pre-breakup) may exist; no country is truly free of them, but these are confined to certain sectors in public infrastructure and don't necessarily invalidate the free market nature of the other sectors. I think, in theory, the free marketeers believe that it is best to open all such sectors to competition too, but in practice it is difficult and the results may be bad. These sectors apart, the US is a free market economy, by any definition I've read. Which leads to an example I read of, on why privatisation of such government monopolies, unless done properly, can be a bad thing: the Los Angeles tram system. I can't remember the source, but the story was that it was sold off, and the car companies got together, bought it and dismantled it. (LA is the only city I have seen where there are more cars than pedestrians, in fact there are places where it's hard to see any pedestrians at all.) This is partly an example where the government did not sufficiently encourage competition (the car companies had too much power), and a privatisation which foresaw such possibilities may have worked better; but many privatisation programmes all over the world have gone awry, usually for different reasons. For instance, in Britain there are frequent complaints about the train system after it was privatised. > aware of any capitalist country which actually has had a free > market That's because your definition of a "free market" doesn't fit anything I've heard before. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 4:53:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCDB37B40E for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 04:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f8UBrK709271; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:53:20 +0200 (CEST) To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Terry Lambert Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <1001850800.3bb707b075fb4@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:53:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> In-Reply-To: <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.152.243 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scrive Terry Lambert : > Can we stop with the ad hominim attacks already? They do not ^^^^^^^^^^ > make your arguments more persuasive. BTW, I have really been enjoying the conversation. I have to make a incidental remark, though. In Italian, a language directly coming from Latin (more so than others), "ad hominem" has a limited meaning: "[argument/statement] directed towards confuting somebody else's argument(s)/statement(s) by showing that the (latter) argument(s) is/are inconsistent with its/their premises, regardless of the truth or validity of the argument(s) per se". Compare with arguments "ad veritatem" (truth). By the way, the English "ad hominem" may mean the Italian "ad personam". That is, in different languages, Latin expressions are used differently. :-) -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 5:45:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE3E37B40C for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 05:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E971E1D169; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:45:32 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:45:32 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Rahul Siddharthan , Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <34350000.1001853932@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Saturday, September 29, 2001 22:03:58 -0700 Terry Lambert wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: >> > it's far more likely >> > that as usual you stepped way out of your field of expertise and don't >> > have a clue what you're talking about. >> >> Can we stop with the ad hominim attacks already? They do not >> make your arguments more persuasive. > > PS: I will happily listen to your alternative theories as to why > there is continued ethnic and religious violence in India; I'm > willing to admit that the scholarly sources from which I have > derived my own opinions may be wrong, even if they agree in the > great majority... they are, after all, predominantly English > language sources (there's a dearth of Tamil, Devengari, and other > Indic script writing on the subject on the Internet, or perhaps > it's just badly indexed). Predominantly the cause of all social tension is the state of the economy. When all elements of society are doing well then there tends to be harmony because nobody is interested in disrupting an environment in which most people are benefitting. When the economy starts to decline then social tensions come to the fore, because each social group is chasing after the declining wealth that exists and in those circumstances it is easy for fanaticism to whip up hatred of other social groups. Of course in many societies there is also intrinsic economic division, where one element of society is doing well while another element is suffering so the antagonisms between the social groups can be prevalent even when the economy is doing well. The social conditions can be seen to be behind most of the conflicts in the world, the fanaticism that arises is a symptom of these conditions and not the root cause of the divisions. Paul Richards To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 6: 5:49 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4F437B40A for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 06:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-26-233.dial.proxad.net [213.228.26.233]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC16AB287 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:05:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 463 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Sep 2001 13:05:34 -0000 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:05:34 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Paul Richards Cc: tlambert2@mindspring.com, Salvo Bartolotta , Konstantinos Konstantinidis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Message-ID: <20010930150534.A388@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com> <34350000.1001853932@lobster.originative.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <34350000.1001853932@lobster.originative.co.uk>; from paul@freebsd-services.com on Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 01:45:32PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The social conditions can be seen to be behind most of the conflicts in the > world, the fanaticism that arises is a symptom of these conditions and not > the root cause of the divisions. True. As I said in another mail, fanatics like David Duke and the Ku Klux Klan certainly exist in the US. They don't get much of a following because ordinary Americans are comfortable; but their counterparts in Europe are actually winning elections. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 10:13:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8708D37B403; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 10:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f8UHD8q21564; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 19:13:08 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 18:16:44 +0200 To: Kris Kirby , Chern Lee From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad Drivers Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 6:23 AM +0000 9/30/01, Kris Kirby wrote: > Shoot, you should have see the local city cop at midnight in > after-festival traffic... Jumped three lanes at 65 -- in a 50. No lights, > no turn-signals ... just jumped. Sometimes I wonder about emergency services personnel. For example, do they appreciate or even known what some citizens do on their behalf? This past week, for the second time in my life, I heard a siren and didn't know where it was coming from, so I decided to simply sit where I was (the first car in the line, waiting for the light) until I could find out. And again, the vehicle comes *flying* up the wrong side of the road (at speeds well in excess of sixty or even a hundred miles an hour), makes an insanely short "whip" turn right in front of me, and then continues driving at high speed in the lane I would have been in. The first time was about eighteen years ago, when I was still in high school. I was driving my very first car (a 1974 white Chevy Malibu Classic with a 350 V-8, which I had bought from my parents using the money I had made from a summer job), and I was turning left from one very busy street onto another, as I was headed back home from school. It was rush hour, and I had a very long line of cars behind me -- most of whom probably wanted to go straight, but we only had one lane of traffic that direction. Cars were probably stacked up for a quarter of a mile, or maybe more. A little before the light was due to turn, I heard something that I couldn't be sure what it was. So, I turned off the radio, and rolled down the windows. I didn't hear anything for several seconds, but then I thought I heard a siren. Even when the light turned green, not knowing where the siren was coming from I decided to stay put, and the people behind me got considerably more pissed-off than they already were. A few seconds later, way the hell back at the end of the line, I see this cop car with flashing lights snap into the lane of the oncoming traffic, and he covered that distance faster than any car I've ever personally witnessed (please note that portions of my family have been professional sprint car drivers or otherwise involved in racing cars, and have done so for generations). If I had started to turn left, there would have been no stopping a pile-up of truly horrific proportions (remember, this is before they had air bags), and dozens of people would have died or been seriously injured. This second time, I was headed straight, but stopped at another busy intersection. The fire engine ran up at very high speed in the empty left turn lane beside me, and then whipped over into my lane just in time to avoid the median right in front of it. But otherwise, the circumstances were pretty much the same. Even if all we do is stay put when we hear a siren but we can't figure out where it's coming from, do they know what we sometimes do for them? Do they appreciate it? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 11:52:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-94-248-46.mmcable.com [24.94.248.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E9BE37B40B for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 76950 invoked by uid 100); 30 Sep 2001 18:52:18 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15287.27106.597022.196835@guru.mired.org> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:52:18 -0500 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kirby , Chern Lee , Subject: Re: Bad Drivers In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles types: > This second time, I was headed straight, but stopped at another > busy intersection. The fire engine ran up at very high speed in the > empty left turn lane beside me This used to be SOP for drivers in Frankfurt AM. If you watched a busy intersection for about 10 minutes, you were sure to see at least one private car go through the intersection in the two left turn lanes. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 12:16:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35DF37B410 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010930191644.JYHW7703.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:16:44 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010930150810.017fe7d0@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:10:35 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: helping victims of terror In-Reply-To: <34350000.1001853932@lobster.originative.co.uk> References: <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com> <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB216E8.89F3419@mindspring.com> <20010926202630.C10954@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB427FD.61AE3E6A@mindspring.com> <20010928144755.C7471@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6174E.BCDCCAA6@mindspring.com> <20010930021157.A315@lpt.ens.fr> <3BB6A622.58C86193@mindspring.com> <3BB6A7BE.8157B03F@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is the explanation I've personally accepted for most of the anti-U.S. sentiment that I've noticed worldwide, though I never suspected it would erupt as violently as it did on September 11th. --Chip Morton At 08:45 AM 9/30/2001, you wrote: >Predominantly the cause of all social tension is the state of the economy. >When all elements of society are doing well then there tends to be harmony >because nobody is interested in disrupting an environment in which most >people are benefitting. When the economy starts to decline then social >tensions come to the fore, because each social group is chasing after the >declining wealth that exists and in those circumstances it is easy for >fanaticism to whip up hatred of other social groups. Of course in many >societies there is also intrinsic economic division, where one element of >society is doing well while another element is suffering so the antagonisms >between the social groups can be prevalent even when the economy is doing >well. > >The social conditions can be seen to be behind most of the conflicts in the >world, the fanaticism that arises is a symptom of these conditions and not >the root cause of the divisions. > >Paul Richards > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 12:17: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4230237B40E for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010930191653.JYKH7703.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:16:53 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010930151406.021b7290@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:15:51 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: Bad Drivers In-Reply-To: References: < Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You know, as I read this, I imagined comic book-style panels, captions, and thought bubbles. You even had a Spidey-sense. :-) I gotta lay off the comic books. --Chip Morton At 12:16 PM 9/30/2001, Brad Knowles wrote: > Sometimes I wonder about emergency services personnel. For > example, do they appreciate or even known what some citizens do on their > behalf? > > > This past week, for the second time in my life, I heard a siren > and didn't know where it was coming from, so I decided to simply sit > where I was (the first car in the line, waiting for the light) until I > could find out. And again, the vehicle comes *flying* up the wrong side > of the road (at speeds well in excess of sixty or even a hundred miles an > hour), makes an insanely short "whip" turn right in front of me, and then > continues driving at high speed in the lane I would have been in. > > > The first time was about eighteen years ago, when I was still in > high school. I was driving my very first car (a 1974 white Chevy Malibu > Classic with a 350 V-8, which I had bought from my parents using the > money I had made from a summer job), and I was turning left from one very > busy street onto another, as I was headed back home from school. It was > rush hour, and I had a very long line of cars behind me -- most of whom > probably wanted to go straight, but we only had one lane of traffic that > direction. Cars were probably stacked up for a quarter of a mile, or > maybe more. A little before the light was due to turn, I heard something > that I couldn't be sure what it was. So, I turned off the radio, and > rolled down the windows. I didn't hear anything for several seconds, but > then I thought I heard a siren. > > Even when the light turned green, not knowing where the siren was > coming from I decided to stay put, and the people behind me got > considerably more pissed-off than they already were. A few seconds > later, way the hell back at the end of the line, I see this cop car with > flashing lights snap into the lane of the oncoming traffic, and he > covered that distance faster than any car I've ever personally witnessed > (please note that portions of my family have been professional sprint car > drivers or otherwise involved in racing cars, and have done so for > generations). If I had started to turn left, there would have been no > stopping a pile-up of truly horrific proportions (remember, this is > before they had air bags), and dozens of people would have died or been > seriously injured. > > > This second time, I was headed straight, but stopped at another > busy intersection. The fire engine ran up at very high speed in the > empty left turn lane beside me, and then whipped over into my lane just > in time to avoid the median right in front of it. But otherwise, the > circumstances were pretty much the same. > > > Even if all we do is stay put when we hear a siren but we can't > figure out where it's coming from, do they know what we sometimes do for > them? Do they appreciate it? > >-- >Brad Knowles, > >H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 >Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes >MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il >wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP >dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ >uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 12:29:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.nc.rr.com (fe5.southeast.rr.com [24.93.67.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77AA037B40F; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 12:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tbird-850 ([24.25.29.45]) by mail5.nc.rr.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:24:45 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 14:25:15 -0400 From: Neill Robins X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.48f) Personal Reply-To: Neill Robins X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17366261188.20010930142515@nc.rr.com> To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kirby , Chern Lee , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad Drivers In-reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sunday, September 30, 2001, 12:16:44 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: BK> At 6:23 AM +0000 9/30/01, Kris Kirby wrote: >> Shoot, you should have see the local city cop at midnight in >> after-festival traffic... Jumped three lanes at 65 -- in a 50. No lights, >> no turn-signals ... just jumped. BK> Sometimes I wonder about emergency services personnel. For BK> example, do they appreciate or even known what some citizens do on BK> their behalf? Do we appreciate what they do on our behalf? I understand that these situations probably fall in the 'not-so-wise' department but I am sure these scenarios are a very small minority of most emergency personnel decisions. There may have even been a reason to make such drastic moves. I'm sure we all know how time is crucial in emergency situations. The reason I say this is that I have many, many personal friends and relatives who are firefighters, police and paramedics, and they are truly under paid and under-thanked (?) for the work they do and the things they see every day. I also know that we (civillian drivers) make their jobs much harder a majority of the time. -Neill freebsd@nc.rr.com P.S. I don't mean to imply that you don't respect these folks, but as in all circumstances you can't judge a group of people based on the small portion that have made some (possibly) poor decisions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 13:17:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop2pub.verizon.net (smtppop2pub.gte.net [206.46.170.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297DC37B40F for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop2pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id PAA15888796 Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:19:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA01027; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:17:07 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fundamentalism (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20010930131707.A1004@darkstar.gte.net> References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010926104925.A318@lpt.ens.fr> <1001617805.3bb3798d9bd0f@webmail.neomedia.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <1001617805.3bb3798d9bd0f@webmail.neomedia.it>; from bartequi@neomedia.it on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 09:10:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If religion stops being the motivation for war, what takes its place? Nationalism? Technology? Fashion? Sport? Brand name Loyalty? How much of an excuse do humans need for war? [RC] On Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 09:10:05PM +0200, Salvo Bartolotta wrote: > Scrive Rahul Siddharthan : > > > And, where India (perhaps Pakistan too) is concerned, *this* is the > > problem. The Muslim masses look to their mullahs for inspiration and > > not to their scientists, artists, writers or even the forward-looking > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > This is one of the most dangerous effect of ignorance, ignorance associated > with the inability to think for oneself. It's worse than cancer. :-) > > Those who distort, inter alia, religion essentially wish to take away your > freedom [of thought]. Those "people" would use any pretext for their > purposes, and distorted religion happens to be one of the most poweful means. > > > > > > politicians, while these latter don't make an effort to reach to the > > masses (well, maybe some of the politicians do, but they're not very > > successful). > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that 1) the distortion of Islam/any religion has nothing > > > to do with Islam and with religion at large; 2) these ideas can only > > > be accepted by **ignorant** and [more or less large] [more or less] > > > poor masses; 3) most of these religious/political leaders, for a > > > variety of reasons, wish to keep these populations as ignorant [and > > > poor] as they can. > > > > Partially right on 1: I think every religious text has things in it > > which seem barbaric from our present-day point of view, and while we > > can justify moderate behaviour by quoting the Koran, these people can > > equally well justify their extremism from the same source. I won't > > argue with them there, since their knowledge of the Koran is obviously > > vastly greater than mine. Quite right on 2 and 3. > > > > > Yes and no. > > A few days ago, a moderate Egyptian mullah stated that, in the Koran, there's > no mention of "holy war". The fact is, the people good at misrepresenting > religion are very good at creating packs of lies. If religions didn't exist, > they would simply create other lies. > > > Also, I was thinking of Christian religion(s). The figure of Christ as a > thinker is strikingly universal. However, in the past few centuries, this > hasn't prevented many people from perverting his thought and, in particular, > from: > > 1) organizing crusades (the speeches of certain popes on the subject > are very illuminating, as well as the real motives of the ahem "crusaders"); > > 2) burning, among others, Bruno at the stake; condemning and humiliating one > of the greatest *Catholic* scientists of all times (viz Galileo); > > 3) making wars of "religion" -- religion being a mere pretext. > > > > > > > > I once read (fortune cookie?) that government lies, and newspapers lie, but in > a democracy they are different lies. :-) I consider myself lucky to live in > the West. Nowadays, to be able, ie to have the opportunity to think for > oneself is real luxury. > > -- Salvo > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 13:24:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D990537B411; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id PAA18441653 Sun, 30 Sep 2001 15:23:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA01062; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:23:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:23:26 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Robert Watson Cc: Robert Clark , Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NAI Labs Announces DARPA-Funded FreeBSD Security Initiative Message-ID: <20010930132326.A1035@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010710214613.C24198@darkstar.gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: ; from rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG on Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 07:21:32PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How have things been going? I see active involvement in the list, by people from NAI. What has been happening? How are people? (Just curious.) [RC] On Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 07:21:32PM -0400, Robert Watson wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Jul 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > > > It would be nice if one of the *BSD periodicals would cronicle the > > (public) goings on at the lab. > > > > Hearing what progress was being made would be good for morale. > > > > (Not that morale is bad now.) > > Robert, > > NAI Labs would be happy to talk with members of the *BSD media about the > activities going on in the Labs, either specifically to do with FreeBSD, > or general work. We can even arrange tours at our Glenwood, MD office, if > people would like :-). > > Also, we plan to present regularly at various conferences relating to open > source, unix, and security, including the USENIX Technical Conference, > USENIX Security Symposium, and BSD Conference. And we'll update our Open > Source site (http://opensource.nailabs.com/) as appropriate. In fact, > some updates on the LOMAC port to FreeBSD went up today, I think, and we > announced the change in licensing on LOMAC to a BSD license. For general > information on NAI Labs, peruse our web site at http://www.nailabs.com/. > > Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project > robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 13:40:22 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BFC37B40A; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 13:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f8UKdmq01787; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:39:50 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <17366261188.20010930142515@nc.rr.com> References: <17366261188.20010930142515@nc.rr.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:28:41 +0200 To: Neill Robins From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad Drivers Cc: Kris Kirby , Chern Lee , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 2:25 PM -0400 9/30/01, Neill Robins wrote: > Do we appreciate what they do on our behalf? I certainly do. If I didn't, then neither of these situations would have happened, and there would probably be a number of additional people who were dead as a result. > I understand that these situations probably fall in the 'not-so-wise' > department but I am sure these scenarios are a very small minority of > most emergency personnel decisions. There may have even been a reason > to make such drastic moves. I'm sure we all know how time is crucial > in emergency situations. That may well be true, but I am still lead to ask the same question. > The reason I say this is that I have many, many personal friends and > relatives who are firefighters, police and paramedics, and they are > truly under paid and under-thanked (?) for the work they do and the > things they see every day. I also know that we (civillian drivers) > make their jobs much harder a majority of the time. A friend of mine back in college was a police officer, and a damn good one. He was putting himself through college on his time off, on his way to medical school. I rode with him in his patrol car once, and he took me to a firing range on a couple of occasions and taught me how to shoot revolvers, semi-automatics, rifles, and shotguns. He felt it was important that people know how to properly use firearms, and since I was his friend and interested, he was going to make sure that I had proper instruction. Even today, I feel that rigorous mandatory instruction would be one of the best things we could do to help reduce the amount of crime that occurs through the use of firearms -- usually through the criminal taking the firearm away from the private citizen, and then using it against them. It would also help significantly reduce the incidence of accidental injury or death due to firearms, because people would know better how to use them, clean them, and store them, and they should be less likely to cause or result in the kinds of accidents we hear so frequently about. But I do still wonder if they appreciate what some of us do for them sometimes. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 17:15:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net (we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net [66.27.250.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA98A37B40E for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.homeip.net (ividqf@unix.homeip.net [66.27.250.19]) by we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f910Ge017395 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:16:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@unix.homeip.net) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:16:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: Bad Drivers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010930171236.O13286-100000@we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Chern Lee wrote: > Cut me off on I5. You came six inches from what would've been an 80 mph > fast-lane accident. Okay, so you were doing 80 mph? What's the speed limit on the I5? That's the I5 in California right? I'm assumming you're up north (I'm in L.A.). Down here the limit is 65 mph. Seems like you were speeding. =P~ Just thought I'd point that out. ;) Joey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 17:53:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (fledge.watson.org [204.156.12.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE62737B40F for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.11.6/8.11.5) with SMTP id f910aaB69645; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 20:36:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from robert@fledge.watson.org) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 20:36:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org To: Robert Clark Cc: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NAI Labs Announces DARPA-Funded FreeBSD Security Initiative In-Reply-To: <20010930132326.A1035@darkstar.gte.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Robert Clark wrote: > How have things been going? > > I see active involvement in the list, by people from NAI. > > What has been happening? How are people? We're really still just ramping up at this points -- government contracts have a long an laborous life cycle. The process of getting our sub-contractors going took a while due to contracting complications, and so that work should be going soon also, and will involve more of the FreeBSD development community, so there should be more visible action on that front. One area where we've made a lot of progress is in porting the LOMAC security work to FreeBSD -- that's almost done, and we actually hope to import it as an optional kernel module in FreeBSD 5.0 (if you follow the lomac-users list, you've seen new releases come out supporting FreeBSD, and under a BSD license). You will be seeing some announcements about that soon. Most of my travel and TrustedBSD work is now being funded by DARPA, and so more of that is happening, and shortly the resources allocates to LOMAC will be going towards more TrustedBSD work. We're also looking to hire one or two FreeBSD kernel-hacking security types, especially if they live in the Washington, DC area. We also have LA and Santa Clara offices (resumes to rwatson@tislabs.com). Since there has been substantial interest, I'll send out a status note in the next two weeks to give a bit more of a material resposne :-). Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project robert@fledge.watson.org NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 30 22:30:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6121937B413; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.247.136.133.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.247.136.133]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f915OfT13905; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BB7FE4A.DCF3D207@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:25:30 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Knowles Cc: Kris Kirby , Chern Lee , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Bad Drivers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 6:23 AM +0000 9/30/01, Kris Kirby wrote: > > > Shoot, you should have see the local city cop at midnight in > > after-festival traffic... Jumped three lanes at 65 -- in a 50. No lights, > > no turn-signals ... just jumped. > > Sometimes I wonder about emergency services personnel. For > example, do they appreciate or even known what some citizens do on > their behalf? Foster City occasionally runs the fire engine with the lights and sirens, followed a few seconds later by a cop car, which pulls over an tickets drivers who do not pull over or otherwise yield right of way to emergency vehicles. I have a friend who is the driver on a paramedic fire engine. If you stop at a light in front of him when he needs to go though, and you do not run the light on his behalf, if that is the only way to get the hell out of the way, he will edge the truck up behind you, and _push_ your car through the red light to the other side of the intersection (assuming you don't get the point and start moving yourself). I, for one, am absolutely tickled pink about this: if he were responding to an emergency involving me, or someone I cared about, I would be very, very glad that he's willing to do this (I _am_ very, very glad that he's willing to do this, even without that, in fact). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 1:43:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from riker.skynet.be (riker.skynet.be [195.238.3.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C84437B40A; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 01:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by riker.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f918gUq29303; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:42:31 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3BB7FE4A.DCF3D207@mindspring.com> References: <3BB7FE4A.DCF3D207@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:40:29 +0200 To: tlambert2@mindspring.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Bad Drivers Cc: Kris Kirby , Chern Lee , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:25 PM -0700 9/30/01, Terry Lambert wrote: > I have a friend who is the driver on a paramedic fire engine. > If you stop at a light in front of him when he needs to go > though, and you do not run the light on his behalf, if that is > the only way to get the hell out of the way, he will edge the > truck up behind you, and _push_ your car through the red light > to the other side of the intersection (assuming you don't get > the point and start moving yourself). That assumes that you can pull over, and that he is immediately behind you. When there are twenty or a hundred cars between him and you, the situation can be rather different. In this case, the best thing to do may well be to *NOT* move, but to instead hold your lane where it is (instead of letting it move forward, in a mistaken attempt to also move over), and let them come up through a lane that is completely clear. Basically, when it comes to emergency services vehicles, just pulling over to the right side of the road is not always the best thing to do. You need to figure out what the best thing is, and then do that. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 3:27:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8997837B40D for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 03:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f91ARHb00149; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:27:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Clark Subject: Re: fundamentalism (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <1001932037.3bb845057872f@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:27:17 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Salvo Bartolotta , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010926104925.A318@lpt.ens.fr> <1001617805.3bb3798d9bd0f@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010930131707.A1004@darkstar.gte.net> In-Reply-To: <20010930131707.A1004@darkstar.gte.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.170.196 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert Clark wrote: > > If religion stops being the motivation for war, what takes its place? > > Nationalism? Technology? Fashion? Sport? Brand name Loyalty? > > How much of an excuse do humans need for war? I am afraid that the two world wars had little to do with religion; and a good number of other more "limited" wars have nothing to do with religion. Nationalism/race (cf "lebensraum" ~ "living space") makes an excellent pretext (cf world war II); [more or less "scientific"] ideology makes another. By the way, in the Koran "jihad" means "effort", not "holy war"; further, there is no mention of "holy war", no war being "holy"; and it is considered a Bad Thing(tm) to force people to convert to Islam (!). The troglodytes who use Islam, or any religion/belief, as a means of government just don't know or care; they would use *anything* to attain their goals (ignorance/illiteracy of their people being one of those goals). Incidentally, the idea of *using* religion is ancient ("religio instrumentum regni"). Distorted religion certainly offers a bonus, namely the ability to [completely] restrict people's freedom in the name of some "god" -- Afghanistan being a good but by no means unique example. Of course, this is not the only way to do so -- cf the former Soviet Union, China, etc. -- Salvo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 3:35: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DAE37B408 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 03:35:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA34876; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:34:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Robert Clark , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fundamentalism (was Re: helping victims of terror) References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010926104925.A318@lpt.ens.fr> <1001617805.3bb3798d9bd0f@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010930131707.A1004@darkstar.gte.net> <1001932037.3bb845057872f@webmail.neomedia.it> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 01 Oct 2001 12:34:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1001932037.3bb845057872f@webmail.neomedia.it> Message-ID: Lines: 12 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Salvo Bartolotta writes: > I am afraid that the two world wars had little to do with religion; > and a good number of other more "limited" wars have nothing to do > with religion. Nationalism/race (cf "lebensraum" ~ "living space") > makes an excellent pretext (cf world war II); [more or less > "scientific"] ideology makes another. You mean to say that those aren't religions?! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 5: 0:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aragorn.neomedia.it (aragorn.neomedia.it [195.103.207.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A952537B405 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 05:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from httpd@localhost) by aragorn.neomedia.it (8.11.4/8.11.4) id f91C0RY26416; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:00:27 +0200 (CEST) To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: fundamentalism (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <1001937627.3bb85adb50217@webmail.neomedia.it> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 14:00:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Salvo Bartolotta Cc: Robert Clark , Rahul Siddharthan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <1001447850.3bb0e1aa11dfc@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010925222900.A71817@lpt.ens.fr> <1001463692.3bb11f8ccca43@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010926104925.A318@lpt.ens.fr> <1001617805.3bb3798d9bd0f@webmail.neomedia.it> <20010930131707.A1004@darkstar.gte.net> <1001932037.3bb845057872f@webmail.neomedia.it> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.4-cvs X-WebMail-Company: Neomedia s.a.s. X-Originating-IP: 62.98.170.196 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Salvo Bartolotta writes: > > I am afraid that the two world wars had little to do with religion; > > and a good number of other more "limited" wars have nothing to do > > with religion. Nationalism/race (cf "lebensraum" ~ "living space") > > makes an excellent pretext (cf world war II); [more or less > > "scientific"] ideology makes another. > > You mean to say that those aren't religions?! Nice remark. I would say that the negation of religion may be pursued with religious zeal (!), ideology replacing religion. Yes, those who [believe that they] possess The One Truth may be as zealous and dangerous as fundamentalists. Nowadays, Freedom of Thought is real luxury. -- Salvo P.S. Public opinion exists only where there are no ideas. --Salvo Bart^W^WOscar Wilde To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 12:20: 8 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1707637B403 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.140.234.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.140.234]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f91JJVT21153; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f91JJ7m01004; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:19:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:18:58 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: Joey Garcia Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad Drivers Message-ID: <20011001121858.A304@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010930171236.O13286-100000@we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010930171236.O13286-100000@we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net>; from bear@unix.homeip.net on Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 05:16:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 05:16:40PM -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: > > > On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Chern Lee wrote: > > > Cut me off on I5. You came six inches from what would've been an 80 mph > > fast-lane accident. > > Okay, so you were doing 80 mph? What's the speed limit on the I5? That's > the I5 in California right? I'm assumming you're up north (I'm in L.A.). > Down here the limit is 65 mph. Seems like you were speeding. =P~ > > Just thought I'd point that out. ;) The speed limit on I-5 in the San Jaquin Valley is 70 mph. Of course, if you actually are driving anything less than 80, you'll get run down. I can hold a steady 90-95 for miles and still get passed quite a bit. The traffic density is typically low, the road is flat, straight has good visibility off to the sides. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 12:48:51 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com (c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com [24.176.204.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340C237B40C for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bmah@localhost) by c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f91JmaO07477; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 12:48:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmah) Message-Id: <200110011948.f91JmaO07477@c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: Joey Garcia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad Drivers In-Reply-To: <20011001121858.A304@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <20010930171236.O13286-100000@we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net> <20011001121858.A304@blossom.cjclark.org> Comments: In-reply-to "Crist J. Clark" message dated "Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:18:58 -0700." From: bmah@acm.org (Bruce A. Mah) Reply-To: bmah@acm.org X-Face: g~c`.{#4q0"(V*b#g[i~rXgm*w;:nMfz%_RZLma)UgGN&=j`5vXoU^@n5v4:OO)c["!w)nD/!!~e4Sj7LiT'6*wZ83454H""lb{CC%T37O!!'S$S&D}sem7I[A 2V%N&+ X-Image-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/Images/bmah-cisco-small.gif X-Url: http://www.employees.org/~bmah/ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_1946747668P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 12:48:36 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --==_Exmh_1946747668P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If memory serves me right, "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > The speed limit on I-5 in the San Jaquin Valley is 70 mph. Of course, ^^^^^^^^^^ "San Joaquin" > if you actually are driving anything less than 80, you'll get run > down. I can hold a steady 90-95 for miles and still get passed quite a > bit. The traffic density is typically low, the road is flat, straight > has good visibility off to the sides. ...and it's incredibly boring. Ranks up there with California state route 152, which is also flat and straight, but you have to contend occasionally with various pieces of agricultural equipment crossing the roadway. Lucky me, I get to drive both of these roads every time I visit my parents. Bruce. --==_Exmh_1946747668P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: Exmh version 2.3.1+ 05/14/2001 iD8DBQE7uMiU2MoxcVugUsMRAs44AKDIC0EPy9VIffGbi0omwiiDweZbXACgoIc7 Z12Ga6eR9+qVwqZZTMSCKUo= =QCw9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_1946747668P-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 17: 2:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9571737B40B for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blossom.cjclark.org (dialup-209.245.140.234.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.140.234]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24960; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by blossom.cjclark.org (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f9201vR02044; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:01:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:01:57 -0700 From: "Crist J. Clark" To: "Bruce A. Mah" Cc: Joey Garcia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad Drivers Message-ID: <20011001170157.F304@blossom.cjclark.org> Reply-To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu References: <20010930171236.O13286-100000@we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net> <20011001121858.A304@blossom.cjclark.org> <200110011948.f91JmaO07477@c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200110011948.f91JmaO07477@c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com>; from bmah@acm.org on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 12:48:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 12:48:36PM -0700, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > If memory serves me right, "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > > > The speed limit on I-5 in the San Jaquin Valley is 70 mph. Of course, > ^^^^^^^^^^ > "San Joaquin" > > > if you actually are driving anything less than 80, you'll get run > > down. I can hold a steady 90-95 for miles and still get passed quite a > > bit. The traffic density is typically low, the road is flat, straight > > has good visibility off to the sides. > > ...and it's incredibly boring. Ranks up there with California state > route 152, which is also flat and straight, but you have to contend > occasionally with various pieces of agricultural equipment crossing the > roadway. Lucky me, I get to drive both of these roads every time I > visit my parents. I presume you are taking 152 east from I-5. 152 west from I-5 is not so boring, past the San Luis Reservoir and then down through Gilroy (mmm, garlic) to get to US 101 back up to San Jose. But I can appreciate your plight. I've been driving to Lemoore, CA. CA 198 from I-5 to Lemoore. Twenty-seven miles straight as an arrow through the desert-turned-agricultural fields on the valley. I'm from the midwest originally and the midwest's got nothin' on the valley for being mindnumbingly featureless and flat. I mean f-l-a-t. I've just about killed myself jogging out there, "I'll just go to that next stop sign that looks a couple of hundred yards away and turn around." Well, that stop sign is two or three miles away (and the temperatures and total lack of cover don't help either). -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@alum.mit.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 17:17:42 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A84837B40C for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1146 invoked by uid 100); 2 Oct 2001 00:17:38 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15289.1954.299038.129558@guru.mired.org> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 19:17:38 -0500 To: cjclark@alum.mit.edu Cc: "Bruce A. Mah" , Joey Garcia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bad Drivers In-Reply-To: <20011001170157.F304@blossom.cjclark.org> References: <20010930171236.O13286-100000@we-66-27-250-19.we.mediaone.net> <20011001121858.A304@blossom.cjclark.org> <200110011948.f91JmaO07477@c527597-a.cstvl1.sfba.home.com> <20011001170157.F304@blossom.cjclark.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Crist J. Clark types: > On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 12:48:36PM -0700, Bruce A. Mah wrote: > > If memory serves me right, "Crist J. Clark" wrote: > > > The speed limit on I-5 in the San Jaquin Valley is 70 mph. Of course, > > "San Joaquin" > > > if you actually are driving anything less than 80, you'll get run > > > down. I can hold a steady 90-95 for miles and still get passed quite a > > > bit. The traffic density is typically low, the road is flat, straight > > > has good visibility off to the sides. > > ...and it's incredibly boring. Ranks up there with California state > > route 152, which is also flat and straight, but you have to contend > > occasionally with various pieces of agricultural equipment crossing the > > roadway. Lucky me, I get to drive both of these roads every time I > > visit my parents. > I presume you are taking 152 east from I-5. 152 west from I-5 is not > so boring, past the San Luis Reservoir and then down through Gilroy > (mmm, garlic) to get to US 101 back up to San Jose. I used to drive that route then I-5 south to visit my folks. I agree about 152 west of I-4 - that's *much* more interesting than the northern route to I-5, taking I-580. Neither of those was the most boring part of the drive. 58 east from I-5 - across the Mojave and then through Kramers Junction, which has *got* to have to worst traffic jam in CA on Sunday afternoons - to I-40 beats it hands down. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 1 17:57:48 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C057037B40B for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f920vhW13112 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 02:57:43 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 02:57:33 +0200 To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List From: Brad Knowles Subject: Deadline extended: SANE 2002 paper submissions now due by 8 Oct 2001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, As a program committee member for SANE 2002, I'd like to take this opportunity to inform you that the the deadline for the submission of abstracts has been extended to the 8th of October. Please find the Announcement/Call-for-papers information at . We would appreciate it if you would pass this information on to any other parties you believe may be interested. Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 5: 0:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3D037B403 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 05:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15oODw-0004CK-00; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:00:32 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f92C0Vx97839; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:00:31 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:00:31 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002130030.C97629@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:26:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:26:05PM +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: | At 2:13 PM +0100 9/27/01, j mckitrick wrote: | | > what guidelines do you personally follow to balance readability vs | > efficiency of source code? | | Whatever feels right. ;-) It seems that changes every time I look at my code after working on something else for a while. :-) | > Can lack of blank lines and other whitespace easily become an impediment to | > readability? When (IYO) is there TOO much? | | Yup, this can be a problem. | | Myself, I see it like writing prose. I don't put a blank line | between every sentence, only between paragraphs. However, as verbose | as I am, sometimes even just a single sentence is several lines long, | and becomes a paragraph in and of itself. In C, I also like to put | opening and closing braces on a line by themselves, in a more | Pascal-like style as opposed to classic K&R style. I agree. I have emacs set for bsd-style indenting. Try reading some of the hardware driver code, or filesystem code. Especially the older stuff from Tahoe (IIUC). Those guys just all grokked what they were writing and could assume others did as well. It's a trial by fire for newbies reading it the first time. (See 'You are not expected to understand this' references ;-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 5:31:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B2C237B407 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 05:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15oOhd-000AUi-00; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:31:13 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f92CVCE98164; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:31:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:31:12 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:26:05PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > One of the software engineers I work with (from mainframe/DOS days) has his | > code spread out so thin, you can page down 3 or 4 pages before you start to | > see meaningful code, and he seems to skip a line after almost every line of | > code. Not to mention spaces before and after every parenthesis, brace, or | > bracket. It seems this would make it easy to read the first time, but a | > nuisance after that. I just came to a new conclusion. I think code formatting and personal style might be directly related to the editor preferred. This programmer has used Brief for years, and the other programmers here use Visual Studio's editor (blech!). With Emacs, I get parenthesis/brace matching, auto-formatting, better searches, comment handling, etc that make a lot of whitespace unnecessary. All of this occurred to me as I was reading some new VS code that also has spaces before and after parentheses. It's because the editor does not match pairs, so they rely on visual cues to do it themselves. God, i love real editors. And i've only been using them a relatively short time. I can imagine how the veterans feel about modern editors. Interesting, our Japanese team hates VS and only uses it for compilation. They all use a programmer's editor for any real work. That seems to be the case in Europe as well. It seems only US programmers (the new ones, anyway) have been snowed by the MS dominance of programming tools. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 5:52:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A6E937B406 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 05:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15oP1y-0003wp-00; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:52:14 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15oP2A-0008o6-00; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:52:26 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:52:26 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: j mckitrick Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:31:12PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15oP1y-0003wp-00*$AK$fvVAPs46/aYSS/s0DEshr/* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 2, j mckitrick wrote: > I just came to a new conclusion. I think code formatting and personal > style might be directly related to the editor preferred. This In that case, I must be a freak. I do about 90% of my code editing in vi and ed, with mail editing (like now) in pico (backed onto mutt). I have to say, it takes hard work, but the nature of my job means I end up doing a hell of a lot of code editing on live, remote servers. Don't ask. Needless to say, when you have minicom up, and you're dialled into a BSD box 300 miles away and you need to change that line *there* and the term settings aren't right, you end up quickly re-learning ed. Very quickly. And yes, we can talk about rolling out code releases etc. but customer confidentiality stops me from telling you quite what it is we do, and why I need to mod code already released. :-) Anyway, I really used to get on with nedit but the PHP support was non-existant and a lot of my bigger projects get done in that rather cute language. I don't know why I stopped using nedit, I just did. Found myself back in the world of :wq! all of a sudden. I once tried learning emacs but didn't get on with it. Maybe one day. -- PR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 6:23: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B7F37B408 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15oPVi-000GcQ-00; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:22:58 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f92DMwb98425; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:22:58 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:22:57 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: Paul Robinson Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk>; from paul@akita.co.uk on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:52:26PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:52:26PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: | On Oct 2, j mckitrick wrote: | | > I just came to a new conclusion. I think code formatting and personal | > style might be directly related to the editor preferred. This | | | | In that case, I must be a freak. I do about 90% of my code editing in vi and | ed, with mail editing (like now) in pico (backed onto mutt). I have to say, So i'll bet you don't have a lot of blank lines or unnecessary "*****" comment lines and fancy boxes. :-) When every keystroke counts, especially during editing itself, you would probably have a more parsimonious style. | it takes hard work, but the nature of my job means I end up doing a hell of | a lot of code editing on live, remote servers. Don't ask. Needless to say, | when you have minicom up, and you're dialled into a BSD box 300 miles away | and you need to change that line *there* and the term settings aren't right, | you end up quickly re-learning ed. Very quickly. And yes, we can talk about This is why they tell us we should all learn our way around vi because it is *always* there, unlike other editors, and it was *designed* for just this kind of environment (slow terminals, odd settings, etc). | back in the world of :wq! all of a sudden. I once tried learning emacs | but didn't get on with it. Maybe one day. I finally took several people's advice. I didn't give up VI, but emacs is amazing for big, complicated jobs. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 6:46:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444EF37B407 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92DkLN14982 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:46:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id PAA12799 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:46:21 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:46:21 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Kehlog Albran? Message-ID: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know the history of Kehlog Albran's "The Profit"? That is, who wrote this thing, and when? I keep seeing this stuff in fortune files. From what I can make out, it seems to have been some small-time thing, not a bestseller, and long out of print. I'd love to find a copy. There used to be a web version on http://www.moonboy.com/profit but it doesn't seem to exist any more; besides it was not complete and lacked most of the stuff in the FreeBSD fortune database, for example. Luckily I had the foresight to make a text copy of what was there. That page used to direct you to Barnes & Noble to buy a copy, but I could never find one in any online bookseller. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 6:56:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jake.akitanet.co.uk (jake.akitanet.co.uk [212.1.130.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2851337B40A for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-212-135-208-201.dsl.easynet.co.uk ([212.135.208.201] helo=wopr.akitanet.co.uk) by jake.akitanet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #3) id 15oQ1x-0004WS-00; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 14:56:17 +0100 Received: from wiggy by wopr.akitanet.co.uk with local (Exim 3.21 #2) id 15oQ2B-0008qg-00; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 14:56:31 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:56:31 +0100 From: Paul Robinson To: j mckitrick Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002145631.C33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 02:22:57PM +0100 X-Scanner: exiscan *15oQ1x-0004WS-00*$AK$t6gTx7DvaXUxFQFRYmapW.* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Oct 2, j mckitrick wrote: > So i'll bet you don't have a lot of blank lines or unnecessary "*****" > comment lines and fancy boxes. :-) Not really. If I'm writing stuff for servers nearby, then vi or vim is flexible enough to allow me to do all that, and I often will, but what I might be writing might end up only ed'able (no pun intended) later on, so certain things have to be thought about for certain applications. For me, a 'for' loop works better in that environment like this: for( i = 0; i < top_of_count; i++ ){ ... } Which I dare say you won't find on any other sites, and you probably wouldn't use yourself. Indenting is fine, but the idea behind this is that in ed I can do say '/i++' and it will find the above line, which I can replace with 's/i/i = a' to produce the line 'i = a++', but perhaps with some escaping on the command to be safe. Seems weird, but sometimes it needs to be done that way. Thankfully not very often. :-) > When every keystroke counts, especially during editing itself, you would > probably have a more parsimonious style. See above. Code comments are incredibly important to some of the stuff I do, and readability is pretty important. However, tightness is kind of important as well. I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as parsimonious though. :-) Thankfully I get to work on easier projects as well, which means I don't have to write code like the above all the time. :-) > This is why they tell us we should all learn our way around vi because > it is *always* there, unlike other editors, and it was *designed* for > just this kind of environment (slow terminals, odd settings, etc). Absolutely. It's also quite easy to pick up after a while. I remember having to spend a good few weeks getting my head around h, j, k and l though and probably wasted many hours trying to get my cursor to go in the direction I needed it in. :-) > I finally took several people's advice. I didn't give up VI, but emacs > is amazing for big, complicated jobs. I always hate the emacs bigotry though - when you're a vi-man and it's made known, the tone of voice that I sometimes encounter is most annoying. But then, I also run Zeus as my webserver, exim as my MTA, and my FTP is all handled out of SQL tables. I get a lot of people telling me I'm not doing things 'right'. I shall look at emacs again soon though and see if I can get the hang of it. -- PR To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 7:13:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3FF37B406 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 07:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 594EA17BD5; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B67215CC5; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:11:05 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: j mckitrick Cc: Paul Robinson , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability In-Reply-To: <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, j mckitrick wrote: > On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:52:26PM +0100, Paul Robinson wrote: > | a lot of code editing on live, remote servers. Don't ask. Needless to say, > | when you have minicom up, and you're dialled into a BSD box 300 miles away > | and you need to change that line *there* and the term settings aren't right, > | you end up quickly re-learning ed. Very quickly. And yes, we can talk about > > This is why they tell us we should all learn our way around vi because > it is *always* there, unlike other editors, and it was *designed* for > just this kind of environment (slow terminals, odd settings, etc). No, vi only works if you've got a reasonable terminal. If you're using a teletype, or a some sort of hardcopy terminal, or you're connected to a terminal server who thinks all the world is some sort AT&T terminal that you've never seen, or you're missing /etc/termcap, you're not going to be doing well with vi. That's why you need to know ed. ed(1) is your friend. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 7:19:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C48B37B40B for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 07:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15oQOP-000D9U-00; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:19:29 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f92EJS798828; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:19:28 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:19:28 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Paul Robinson , Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002151928.G98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from rufus@brain.mics.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 10:11:05AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 10:11:05AM -0400, David Scheidt wrote: | No, vi only works if you've got a reasonable terminal. If you're using a | teletype, or a some sort of hardcopy terminal, or you're connected to a | terminal server who thinks all the world is some sort AT&T terminal that | you've never seen, or you're missing /etc/termcap, you're not going to be | doing well with vi. That's why you need to know ed. ed(1) is your friend. Point taken. I really hope not too many people out there are working with teletypes, though. :-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 10:27:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0E137B408 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA42268; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:27:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Oct 2001 19:27:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > Does anyone know the history of Kehlog Albran's "The Profit"? "Kehlog Albran" is almost certainly a fictive person or a pseudonym, along the lines of Kurt Vonnegut's "Kilgore Trout". Think breakfast cereals... DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 10:29: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A845737B408 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92HSvN44382 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:28:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id TAA23224 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:28:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:28:57 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? Message-ID: <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@ofug.org on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 07:27:31PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav said on Oct 2, 2001 at 19:27:31: > > Does anyone know the history of Kehlog Albran's "The Profit"? > > "Kehlog Albran" is almost certainly a fictive person or a pseudonym, > along the lines of Kurt Vonnegut's "Kilgore Trout". Think breakfast > cereals... That's obvious enough. It's a spoof of Kahlil Gibran. But who? R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 11:19:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lists.blarg.net (lists.blarg.net [206.124.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A1C37B401 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thig.blarg.net (thig.blarg.net [206.124.128.18]) by lists.blarg.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C636BD11; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([206.124.139.115]) by thig.blarg.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17344; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:19:42 -0700 Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.11.6/8.11.3) id f92INOe84568; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:23:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from swear@blarg.net) To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: swear@blarg.net (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 02 Oct 2001 11:23:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Message-ID: Lines: 21 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick writes: > I finally took several people's advice. I didn't give up VI, but emacs > is amazing for big, complicated jobs. I've been using only Emacs (actually mostly XEmacs and some small Emacs clones like Jed) for a long time, but recently decided it would be better to try to force myself to use vi for editing as root. (I learned it 20 years ago and liked the two-mode concept, but I've forgotten all but the very basics.) I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. Is that overly paranoid? Do other people have this concern? Do many people run XEmacs or Emacs as root on a regular basis? Does vim have a lot of similarly suspectable code in it too? (I say this as someone who just installed as root a bunch of ports from all over the world which ran their install (I hope) scripts as root.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 11:39:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D63537B40A for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15oUS7-0007i9-00; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:39:35 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f92IdYD00827; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:39:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:39:34 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002193933.A148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:23:23AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:23:23AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: | I've been using only Emacs (actually mostly XEmacs and some small Emacs That's what I use: Xemacs. But only for large(r) coding projects. | clones like Jed) for a long time, but recently decided it would be | better to try to force myself to use vi for editing as root. (I learned When I am working on scripts or config files on the local machine, I use vi. I use only vi when running as root. | I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect | that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am | thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. I guess that is possible. I use vi in my shell accounts just because it is faster, easier to setup for useful tasks, and less of a resource hog. And it might be more secure as well, I don't know. | (I say this as someone who just installed as root a bunch of ports from | all over the world which ran their install (I hope) scripts as root.) Say, could I have your IP address? ;-) jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 11:42:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4607737B401 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92IgdN50773 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:42:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA26764 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:42:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:42:39 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:23:23AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary W. Swearingen said on Oct 2, 2001 at 11:23:23: > I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect > that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am > thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. > > Is that overly paranoid? Do other people have this concern? It certainly never occurred to me to worry about the security of an editor. Now that you have mentioned it, I'm still not worrying. (I use vim, not emacs. I love vim and detest FreeBSD's default nvi, one of the few things I dislike in FreeBSD but it's easily fixed.) What sort of concerns do you have? Bugs? Trojans? Are you only worried about accidental data loss, or about someone else breaking into your system? If the latter, I don't see how. But then I know very little of emacs. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 11:45:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8E237B40B for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92IjZN50905 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:45:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA26906 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:45:35 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:45:35 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002204535.C22031@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 08:42:39PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan said on Oct 2, 2001 at 20:42:39: > What sort of concerns do you have? Bugs? Trojans? Are you only > worried about accidental data loss, or about someone else breaking > into your system? If the latter, I don't see how. Well, ok if you're editing system files I suppose this could be a concern. I myself seldom edit them directly, only backup copies. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 12: 0: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7D337B40A for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 15oUlo-000CnR-00; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:59:56 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f92Ixuv00952; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:59:56 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:59:56 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 08:42:39PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | use vim, not emacs. I love vim and detest FreeBSD's | default nvi, one of the few things I dislike in FreeBSD but it's | easily fixed.) Interesting. I know one guy who uses nvi just because of the license. I must admit I like the multiple buffer and screen support. I never could get vim to do that in regular console mode. Why do you detest it? jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 12:31: 0 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B16537B401 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92JUpN54367 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:30:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id VAA28270 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:30:51 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:30:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@FreeBSD-uk.eu.org on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 07:59:56PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on Oct 2, 2001 at 19:59:56: > Interesting. I know one guy who uses nvi just because of the license. > I must admit I like the multiple buffer and screen support. I never > could get vim to do that in regular console mode. Why do you detest it? Oh, probably because I was used to vim, I admit... That apart, I found vim's "multiple undo" scheme much more sensible than nvi's. (u for undo, repeatedly if desired, ^R for redo. Also more compatible with "traditional vi" where u is always undo, but once only.) But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, eg gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, but a huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I don't think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. For programs, I like its syntax highlighting. I don't know whether nvi has that. And I think vim does handle multiple buffers in console mode. I haven't investigated it, when doing "serious" work I'm always running X and I just find it easier to open two xterms... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 13:13:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F54337B40A for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 0EFB717BD4; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB45A15CC5; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability In-Reply-To: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > j mckitrick said on Oct 2, 2001 at 19:59:56: > > Interesting. I know one guy who uses nvi just because of the license. > > I must admit I like the multiple buffer and screen support. I never > > could get vim to do that in regular console mode. Why do you detest it? > > Oh, probably because I was used to vim, I admit... > > That apart, I found vim's "multiple undo" scheme much more sensible > than nvi's. (u for undo, repeatedly if desired, ^R for redo. Also > more compatible with "traditional vi" where u is always undo, but once Bull feathers! That's entirely unlike real vi. That's u undoes, and u again redoes the changes. That's a huge finger macro breakage; I pretty often flip back and forth between changed and unchanged versions (dozens of times a day). nvi's multiple undo with . is completely in line with how vi works. > only.) But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, eg > gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, but a > huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email > correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I don't > think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. > I'm not convinced this needs to be part of the editor. Checkout par (ports/textproc/par), I think it does everything vim does. > For programs, I like its syntax highlighting. I don't know whether > nvi has that. I hope not... > > And I think vim does handle multiple buffers in console mode. I > haven't investigated it, when doing "serious" work I'm always running > X and I just find it easier to open two xterms... vim does do multiple buffers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 13:22:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6995E37B403 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92KMWN58241 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:22:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA29834 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:22:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:22:32 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Scheidt Cc: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002222232.B28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: David Scheidt , j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rufus@brain.mics.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:13:46PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt said on Oct 2, 2001 at 16:13:46: > > That apart, I found vim's "multiple undo" scheme much more sensible > > than nvi's. (u for undo, repeatedly if desired, ^R for redo. Also > > more compatible with "traditional vi" where u is always undo, but once > > Bull feathers! That's entirely unlike real vi. That's u undoes, and u > again redoes the changes. Sorry, you're right. I somehow had the other impression, with my earlier use of ibm and irix machines; but I checked on hp-ux and dec unix just now and it matches with what you say. > > only.) But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, eg > > gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, but a > > huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email > > correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I don't > > think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. > > > > I'm not convinced this needs to be part of the editor. Checkout par > (ports/textproc/par), I think it does everything vim does. Well, I want it to be part of the editor. I use the editor more for normal text than for programming. > > For programs, I like its syntax highlighting. I don't know whether > > nvi has that. > > I hope not... Well, you're obviously not an emacs user, anyway :) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 13:26:50 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B5937B406 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92KQjN58446 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:26:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA29984 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:26:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:26:45 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Scheidt Cc: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002222645.C28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: David Scheidt , j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002222232.B28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011002222232.B28111@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 10:22:32PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > only.) But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, eg > > gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, but a > > huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email > > correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I don't > > think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. > > > > I'm not convinced this needs to be part of the editor. Checkout par > (ports/textproc/par), I think it does everything vim does. I just looked at the package description file. Par is a filter that copies its input to its output, changing all white characters (except newlines) to spaces, and reformatting each paragraph. Paragraphs are separated by protected, blank, and bodiless lines (see the Terminology section for definitions), and optionally delimited by indentation (see the d option in the Options section). So what would you do with par if you only wanted to format one paragraph in one text, and didn't want to jump through several hoops to do so? A common occurrence with latex documents, I assure you, where you want to format text but not equations, for instance. Anyway, afaiac there's no question this stuff belongs in the editor. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 13:47: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B019637B406 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15oWRP-0002ax-00; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:46:59 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f92Kkxo01782; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:46:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:46:55 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: David Scheidt Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from rufus@brain.mics.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:13:46PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org | > For programs, I like its syntax highlighting. I don't know whether | > nvi has that. | | I hope not... No offense to David..... Why do some people, especially advanced programmers, hate this feature so much? Isn't it great for catching misspellings before compiling, and for helping the eye locate a target? It also seems good for helping the mind quickly understand the structure of the code. It simply includes more valuable information. I realize it can be overdone, but since you can configure it any way you like, why is it so bad? Why does everything that makes programming easier get labeled a 'crutch' at some point? I mean, LINT could be called a remedy for poor programming skills in the first place, but many accomplished programmers us it, correct? | > And I think vim does handle multiple buffers in console mode. I | > haven't investigated it, when doing "serious" work I'm always running | > X and I just find it easier to open two xterms... | | vim does do multiple buffers. How? Does it do split screens? I once spent the better part of an hour trying to figure this out. That either means poor documentation, or I didn't have the foggiest where to find it in all of those linked documentation menus. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 13:51:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0925537B405 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92KpTN60191 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:51:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id WAA30829 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:51:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 22:51:28 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: j mckitrick Cc: David Scheidt , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002225128.A30801@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , David Scheidt , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org>; from jcm@freebsd-uk.eu.org on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 09:46:55PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick said on Oct 2, 2001 at 21:46:55: > point? I mean, LINT could be called a remedy for poor programming > skills in the first place, but many accomplished programmers us it, > correct? I think many accomplished programmers use syntax highlighting too. Not to mention emacs. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 13:52:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6E937B407 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 73CE817BD4; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFAC15CC5; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:52:51 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability In-Reply-To: <20011002222645.C28111@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > only.) But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, eg > > > gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, but a > > > huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email > > > correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I don't > > > think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. > > > > > > > I'm not convinced this needs to be part of the editor. Checkout par > > (ports/textproc/par), I think it does everything vim does. > > I just looked at the package description file. > > Par is a filter that copies its input to its output, changing all > white characters (except newlines) to spaces, and reformatting > each paragraph. Paragraphs are separated by protected, blank, and > bodiless lines (see the Terminology section for definitions), and > optionally delimited by indentation (see the d option in the Options > section). > > So what would you do with par if you only wanted to format one > paragraph in one text, and didn't want to jump through several hoops > to do so? A common occurrence with latex documents, I assure you, !{par Is how I normally invoke par from vi. Sometimes, !} or ![[ or !]] too. !{par pass the text from the cursor to the previous paragraph break (a blank line, or as set using the para command) to par, and replaces it with the output. !} does until the next paragraph. ]] and [[ are on sections. Both will take a numeric arguement in the normal vi fashion. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 14: 9:23 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BBB37B408 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f92L9GN61985 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:09:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id XAA31399 ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:09:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:09:16 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: David Scheidt Cc: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011002230916.A31182@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: David Scheidt , j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002222645.C28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rufus@brain.mics.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:52:51PM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt said on Oct 2, 2001 at 16:52:51: > > > > So what would you do with par if you only wanted to format one > > paragraph in one text, and didn't want to jump through several hoops > > to do so? A common occurrence with latex documents, I assure you, > > !{par > > Is how I normally invoke par from vi. Sometimes, !} or ![[ or !]] too. > !{par pass the text from the cursor to the previous paragraph break (a > blank line, or as set using the para command) to par, and replaces it > with the output. !} does until the next paragraph. ]] and [[ are on > sections. Interesting. I may have found it useful if I didn't use vim... it may still be useful to batch-process text. BTW - I checked with vim, if you use :set compatible you get the traditional vi undo behaviour (the second u = redo). Of course, that way you don't get multiple undo... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 14:59:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A43DA37B403 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f92Lv8W18346; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:57:08 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:39:32 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , j mckitrick From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: code density vs readability Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 9:30 PM +0200 10/2/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, eg > gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, but a > huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email > correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I don't > think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. I've never seen anything from any other program that could begin to compare with the paragraph formatting available in "par". Does vim incorporate this code from par, or have you compared the two? -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 14:59:20 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F314837B405 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.78.144.27] ([194.78.144.27]) by picard.skynet.be (8.11.6/8.11.6/Skynet-OUT-2.15) with ESMTP id f92Lv9W18370; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:57:09 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brad.knowles@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20011002222232.B28111@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002222232.B28111@lpt.ens.fr> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:42:44 +0200 To: Rahul Siddharthan , David Scheidt From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: code density vs readability Cc: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:22 PM +0200 10/2/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> I'm not convinced this needs to be part of the editor. Checkout par >> (ports/textproc/par), I think it does everything vim does. > > Well, I want it to be part of the editor. I use the editor more for > normal text than for programming. You use "gqap". I use "{!}par". What's the difference? >> > For programs, I like its syntax highlighting. I don't know whether >> > nvi has that. >> >> I hope not... > > Well, you're obviously not an emacs user, anyway :) I definitely like the idea of syntax highlighting. -- Brad Knowles, H4sICIFgXzsCA2RtYS1zaWcAPVHLbsMwDDvXX0H0kkvbfxiwVw8FCmzAzqqj1F4dy7CdBfn7 Kc6wmyGRFEnvvxiWQoCvqI7RSWTcfGXQNqCUAnfIU+AT8OZ/GCNjRVlH0bKpguJkxiITZqes MxwpSucyDJzXxQEUe/ihgXqJXUXwD9ajB6NHonLmNrUSK9nacHQnH097szO74xFXqtlbT3il wMsBz5cnfCR5cEmci0Rj9u/jqBbPeES1I4PeFBXPUIT1XDSOuutFXylzrQvGyboWstCoQZyP dxX4dLx0eauFe1x9puhoi0Ao1omEJo+BZ6XLVNaVpWiKekxN0VK2VMpmAy+Bk7ZV4SO+p1L/ uErNRS/qH2iFU+iNOtbcmVt9N16lfF7tLv9FXNj8AiyNcOi1AQAA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 15: 0: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from itouch.co.nz (itouch.co.nz [203.99.66.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1690D37B405 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jonc.itouch ([192.168.2.21]) by itouch.co.nz with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15oWqS-0004wJ-00; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:12:52 +1200 Received: (from jonc@localhost) by jonc.itouch (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f92LCp582415; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:12:51 +1200 (NZST) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:12:51 +1200 From: Jonathan Chen To: "Gary W. Swearingen" Cc: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003091251.A80459@jonc.itouch> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from swear@blarg.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:23:23AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:23:23AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: [...] > I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect > that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am > thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. Yup. You never know what's hidden as easter-eggs in emacs. I came across one the other day at: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/read.cgi?id=20010928&tid=134701 -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older, it starts avoiding you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 15:10:39 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D27D37B405 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA43513; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 00:10:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Jonathan Chen Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011003091251.A80459@jonc.itouch> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 03 Oct 2001 00:10:24 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20011003091251.A80459@jonc.itouch> Message-ID: Lines: 34 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Chen writes: > Yup. You never know what's hidden as easter-eggs in emacs. I came > across one the other day at: > > http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/read.cgi?id=20010928&tid=134701 That's not an easter egg, it's documented: root@des /tmp/jail# porteasy -iu editors/emacs20 U editors/Makefile U emacs20/Makefile U emacs20/files/patch-cb U emacs20/files/patch-cc U emacs20/files/patch-cd U devel/Makefile +--- Description for editors/emacs20 (emacs-20.7): | GNU Emacs is a self-documenting, customizable, extensible real-time | display editor. | | Users new to Emacs will be able to use basic features fairly rapidly | by studying the tutorial and using the self-documentation features. | Emacs also has an extensive interactive manual browser. It is easily | extensible since its editing commands are written in Lisp. | | GNU Emacs's many special packages handle mail reading (RMail) and | sending (Mail), outline editing (Outline), compiling (Compile), | running subshells within Emacs windows (Shell), running a Lisp | read-eval-print loop (Lisp-Interaction-Mode), automated psychotherapy | (Doctor :-) and many more. +--- DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 15:49:14 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1AD237B40A for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a009.otenet.gr [212.205.215.9]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f92Mn4I05425; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:49:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f92Mn5V16727; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:49:05 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:49:04 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: David Scheidt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003014904.E16142@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-GPG-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-URL: http://labs.gr/~charon/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > only.) But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, eg > > gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, but a > > huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email > > correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I don't > > think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. > > > > I'm not convinced this needs to be part of the editor. Checkout par > (ports/textproc/par), I think it does everything vim does. nvi and par are nice. Now, if only i could get it to keep words that are 'too long' in one line and continue on the next one. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 16:21:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F7237B401 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ATLANTA.threespace.com ([24.21.224.204]) by femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20011002232116.GRFL4599.femail32.sdc1.sfba.home.com@ATLANTA.threespace.com> for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:21:16 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011002191509.017e3a40@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 19:21:02 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Technical Information Subject: Re: code density vs readability In-Reply-To: <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:31 AM 10/2/2001, j mckitrick wrote (edited): >All of this occurred to me as I >was reading some new VS code that also has spaces before and after >parentheses. It's because the editor does not match pairs, so they rely >on visual cues to do it themselves. God, i love real editors. Unless you're talking about something different than what I'm thinking about, the default editor in Visual Studio does match parentheses and braces. But this still doesn't really change the fact that regardless of how easy it is for my editor/compiler to match parentheses, it doesn't make it one bit easier for *me* to see those pairs when I'm looking at my code on screen or paper. Those code structuring techniques are for us people, not the tools. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 18: 4:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [63.86.88.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54CCE37B405 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 1C81A7567; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079851D8E; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:05:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: David Scheidt , j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability In-Reply-To: <20011002222232.B28111@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: :David Scheidt said on Oct 2, 2001 at 16:13:46: :> > That apart, I found vim's "multiple undo" scheme much more sensible :> > than nvi's. (u for undo, repeatedly if desired, ^R for redo. Also :> > more compatible with "traditional vi" where u is always undo, but once :> :> Bull feathers! That's entirely unlike real vi. That's u undoes, and u :> again redoes the changes. : :Sorry, you're right. I somehow had the other impression, with my :earlier use of ibm and irix machines; but I checked on hp-ux and dec :unix just now and it matches with what you say. Irix vi doesn't do recursed undo. It behaves as David describes above. Jamie Bowden -- "It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold" Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur" Iain Bowen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 20:21:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ubermail.mweb.co.za (ubermail.mweb.co.za [196.2.53.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0B937B401 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [196.3.240.235] (helo=siberiyan.dyndns.org) by ubermail.mweb.co.za with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 15ocUr-0004wG-00; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 05:14:57 +0200 Received: by siberiyan.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 855133AE; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 05:17:00 +0200 (SAST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 05:17:00 +0200 From: Piet Delport To: j mckitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003051700.B964@athalon.homenet> Mail-Followup-To: j mckitrick , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gKMricLos+KVdGMg" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 6.0 (http://www.vim.org/) X-Crypto: gpg (GnuPG) 1.0.6 (http://www.gnupg.org/) X-GPG-Key-ID: 0x6B191427 X-GPG-Fingerprint: C7FF A540 2199 F7BF 1933 5640 CD15 0FF3 6B19 1427 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [ Cc's trimmed ] On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 at 21:46:55 +0100, j mckitrick wrote: >>> And I think vim does handle multiple buffers in console mode. I >>> haven't investigated it, when doing "serious" work I'm always >>> running X and I just find it easier to open two xterms... >>=20 >> vim does do multiple buffers. =20 >=20 > How? Does it do split screens? I once spent the better part of an > hour trying to figure this out. That either means poor documentation, > or I didn't have the foggiest where to find it in all of those linked > documentation menus. :h buffers :h split (at least under Vim 6.0, might be somewhere else under Vim 5.8) Mini summary: For multiple buffers, set `hidden', and just ":e" another file. Use ":e" or ":buf" to switch buffers, ":ls" to list them. For split screens, use ^Ws (or ":split", optionally with a filename) to split the current window in two, ^Wn (or ":new") to split off a new window, ^Wf (or ":split ") to split a window on the filename under the cursor, etc. Since Vim 6.0 you can also split windows vertically. About vim's documentation, did you really struggle that hard? Personally, i've found vim's online docs to be the most helpful and complete of any program (commercial or not) i've ever used. *stops before becoming too evangelical* --=20 Piet Delport Today's subliminal thought is: --gKMricLos+KVdGMg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE7uoMszRUP82sZFCcRAjGHAJ4lKMCRlo+195WSVDObffavqxI6xACgpZW/ Bbebw9COso/e9FGje4F5Y38= =k8IQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gKMricLos+KVdGMg-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 21:45:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ubermail.mweb.co.za (ubermail.mweb.co.za [196.2.53.169]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6392D37B403 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [196.3.240.235] (helo=siberiyan.dyndns.org) by ubermail.mweb.co.za with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 15odsu-0000E7-00; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 06:43:52 +0200 Received: by siberiyan.dyndns.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id ED00E493; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 06:45:56 +0200 (SAST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 06:45:56 +0200 From: Piet Delport To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003064556.A2383@athalon.homenet> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0F1p//8PRICkK4MW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-STABLE X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 6.0 (http://www.vim.org/) X-Crypto: gpg (GnuPG) 1.0.6 (http://www.gnupg.org/) X-GPG-Key-ID: 0x6B191427 X-GPG-Fingerprint: C7FF A540 2199 F7BF 1933 5640 CD15 0FF3 6B19 1427 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 at 23:39:32 +0200, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 9:30 PM +0200 10/2/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >> But my big plus for vim is its paragraph-level operations, >> eg gqap for formatting a paragraph. Not a big deal with programs, >> but a huge help with text and emails, and even handles quoted email >> correctly and is great at unmangling Outlook-generated mail. I >> don't think nvi has that; traditional vi doesn't. >=20 > I've never seen anything from any other program that could begin > to compare with the paragraph formatting available in "par". Does vim > incorporate this code from par, or have you compared the two? Vim's formatting doesn't share any code with par (AFAIK). It's probably also less powerful than par on the whole, but it includes more than enough features to keep me happy. A bad first experience with par[1] combined with the fact that Vim's formatting is so well-integrated with the rest of Vim still makes me prefer it to par in most cases. [1] Typed something the lines of: | tester here, | testing stuff par promptly stripped the greatest common prefix: | tester here, ing stuff Vim has a set list of allowed prefixes instead, predefined for most languages via its extensive filetype system (quote chars when editing mails, for example), so this surprise never happens. I know you can probably override this behaviour in par, but i didn't invest the time to find out, and stuck with what i knew instead. :-) --=20 Piet Delport Today's subliminal thought is: --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE7upgEzRUP82sZFCcRAl7TAJ9+yKDjSZbcD+vpcB3SVQk2U6si8wCePCqL 97ev4tlDbSpyXJvQ72NR0c0= =orhq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0F1p//8PRICkK4MW-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 23:23: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guru.mired.org (okc-65-31-203-60.mmcable.com [65.31.203.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CF2837B401 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33614 invoked by uid 100); 3 Oct 2001 06:22:59 -0000 From: Mike Meyer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15290.44739.763131.336545@guru.mired.org> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:22:59 -0500 To: Paul Robinson , Rahul Siddharthan , j mckitrick , Brad Knowles , Jonathan Chen Cc: "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, David Scheidt Subject: Editors et. al (Was: code density vs readability) In-Reply-To: <20011002145631.C33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011003091251.A80459@jonc.itouch> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002145631.C33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> X-Mailer: VM 6.90 under 21.1 (patch 14) "Cuyahoga Valley" XEmacs Lucid X-face: "5Mnwy%?j>IIV\)A=):rjWL~NB2aH[}Yq8Z=u~vJ`"(,&SiLvbbz2W`;h9L,Yg`+vb1>RG% *h+%X^n0EZd>TM8_IB;a8F?(Fb"lw'IgCoyM.[Lg#r\ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson types: > for( > i = 0; > i < top_of_count; > i++ > ){ > > ... > > } > > Which I dare say you won't find on any other sites, and you probably > wouldn't use yourself. Indenting is fine, but the idea behind this is that > in ed I can do say '/i++' and it will find the above line, which I can > replace with 's/i/i = a' to produce the line 'i = a++', but perhaps with > some escaping on the command to be safe. Seems weird, but sometimes it needs > to be done that way. Thankfully not very often. :-) Um - you just saved one (1) keystroke. Is that really worth the cost you're paying by not using: for (i = 0; i < top_of_count; i++) { This has the same number of characters as your example, and you make your change with '/i++' and 's//i = a++' or 's/++/ = a&'. It also has the advantage that you know *which* for loop you've found with '/i++'. Rahul Siddharthan types: > Gary W. Swearingen said on Oct 2, 2001 at 11:23:23: > > I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect > > that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am > > thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. > > Is that overly paranoid? Do other people have this concern? > It certainly never occurred to me to worry about the security of an > editor. Now that you have mentioned it, I'm still not worrying. (I > use vim, not emacs. I love vim and detest FreeBSD's > default nvi, one of the few things I dislike in FreeBSD but it's > easily fixed.) I think it's a *little* paranoid. If the emacs in questions evaluated the value of file variables, it would certainly be justified. On the other hand, I use the gnuclient feature and just leave one copy of emacs around for everything. I don't like the idea of doing that as root, so I tend to use vi there to make sure I don't start it. Unless the change is for only one line, in which case I tend to use ed because it's faster than vi. Since the vi clones are being discussed, would someone know if one of them had an incremental search ability? That would make vi faster than ed for those one-line changes when I'm on a fast connection. j mckitrick types: > Why do some people, especially advanced programmers, hate this feature > so much? Isn't it great for catching misspellings before compiling, and > for helping the eye locate a target? It also seems good for helping the > mind quickly understand the structure of the code. It simply includes > more valuable information. I realize it can be overdone, but since you > can configure it any way you like, why is it so bad? Why does > everything that makes programming easier get labeled a 'crutch' at some > point? I mean, LINT could be called a remedy for poor programming > skills in the first place, but many accomplished programmers us it, > correct? I don't think all advanced programmers hate this feature. I can take it or leave it. If I were forced to use an editor without syntactic indenting - which helps catch some of the problems you named - I might want it more often. As for LINT, that's a remedy for poor language design, not poor programming skills. [Donning flame retardant suit.] Brad Knowles types: > I've never seen anything from any other program that could begin > to compare with the paragraph formatting available in "par". Does > vim incorporate this code from par, or have you compared the two? From looking at the pkg description, it looks like the emacs paragraph formatting code is comparable. It allows the user to specify paragraph delimiters and protected lines, and handles prefixes as described. It works wonders for squaring quots in mail. Jonathan Chen types: > On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:23:23AM -0700, Gary W. Swearingen wrote: > > [...] > > I got to worrying about the amount of Emacs code there is and to suspect > > that much of it changes often and is seen by only a few eyes and am > > thinking it will be safer from a security standpoint to run vi. > > Yup. You never know what's hidden as easter-eggs in emacs. I came > across one the other day at: > > http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/read.cgi?id=20010928&tid=134701 That one's documented, and not in the emacs I'm using, but I run xemacs from xemacs.org, not the ports tree. You might also try the "zippy" command, which spits out quotes from zippy the pinhead. I even have - or maybe had - a function that conntected the two, so that the doctor was analyzing zippy the pinhead. http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Q: How do you make the gods laugh? A: Tell them your plans. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 2 23:52:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.originative.co.uk (mailgate.originative.co.uk [62.232.68.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 414CA37B406 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.originative.co.uk (lobster [62.232.68.81]) by mailgate.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1A21D169; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 07:43:51 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 07:43:51 +0100 From: Paul Richards To: j mckitrick , David Scheidt Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <119370000.1002091431@lobster.originative.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --On Tuesday, October 02, 2001 21:46:55 +0100 j mckitrick wrote: > > How? Does it do split screens? I once spent the better part of an hour > trying to figure this out. That either means poor documentation, or I > didn't have the foggiest where to find it in all of those linked > documentation menus. Poor documentation. It took me ages to track down somewhere that explained how to do split screens in nvi but eventually I found this, http://www.jeffw.com/vi/vi_help.txt which is pretty useful for reminding yourself about those useful features that you know exist but haven't used in a long time. Paul Richards FreeBSD Services Ltd http://www.freebsd-services.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 1: 1:32 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232FE37B406 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-4-27-45.dial.proxad.net [213.228.27.45]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B1B21E for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:01:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 590 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 2001 08:01:19 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:01:19 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: David Scheidt , j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003100119.B426@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , David Scheidt , j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002222232.B28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:42:44PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Knowles said on Oct 2, 2001 at 23:42:44: > At 10:22 PM +0200 10/2/01, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > >> I'm not convinced this needs to be part of the editor. Checkout par > >> (ports/textproc/par), I think it does everything vim does. > > > > Well, I want it to be part of the editor. I use the editor more for > > normal text than for programming. > > You use "gqap". I use "{!}par". What's the difference? Perhaps only that I wouldn't have known about par if someone hadn't told me on this list; whereas I learned about gqap from vim's help system. To this day I know lots of people who don't know about paragraph-formatting even under vim (not that they'd use it if they knew) and don't mind ragged right margins, overflowing lines etc. I didn't intend to start a flamewar, and yes, nvi's license definitely is friendlier to BSD. As for how powerful vim's para features are compared to par, I have no idea. It works for me; perhaps some time if I find it too limiting, I'll look into par... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 2: 6:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898AE37B403 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 02:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-47-215.dial.proxad.net [212.27.47.215]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403912BF for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:06:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 867 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 2001 09:03:51 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:03:51 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brad Knowles Cc: j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003110351.A847@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Brad Knowles , j mckitrick , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010927141333.A44288@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002133112.B98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002135226.A33832@jake.akitanet.co.uk> <20011002142257.C98079@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002204238.B22031@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002195955.C148@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from brad.knowles@skynet.be on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 11:39:32PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I've never seen anything from any other program that could begin > to compare with the paragraph formatting available in "par". Does > vim incorporate this code from par, or have you compared the two? I've just been exploring par, and I think I'll switch... (not switch to nvi: just start using par from within vim) R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 5:54:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B4037B405 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 05:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97] helo=dogma) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #7) id 15olXO-000H3A-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:54:10 +0100 Received: (from jcm@localhost) by dogma (8.11.4/8.11.1) id f93CsAC08658 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:54:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:54:09 +0100 From: j mckitrick To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: most well-written device driver? Message-ID: <20011003135409.A8636@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In your opinion, what device driver would you consider the best model to follow? One that is well-documented, follows all of the current rules, and shows good programming skills. jm -- My other computer is your windows box. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 11:21:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD7C37B409 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.142.238.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.142.238]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21325; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 11:21:24 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > Does anyone know the history of Kehlog Albran's "The Profit"? > > > > "Kehlog Albran" is almost certainly a fictive person or a pseudonym, > > along the lines of Kurt Vonnegut's "Kilgore Trout". Think breakfast > > cereals... > > That's obvious enough. It's a spoof of Kahlil Gibran. But who? It's just satire. I've done a number of fictional quotes from books for satire purposes myself; I occasionally see them floating around in people's signatures, without attribution. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 11:25:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF7437B40A for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f93IPfN81497 ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:25:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA82756 ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:25:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:25:41 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? Message-ID: <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:21:24AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 3, 2001 at 11:21:24: > Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > > > Does anyone know the history of Kehlog Albran's "The Profit"? > > > > > > "Kehlog Albran" is almost certainly a fictive person or a pseudonym, > > > along the lines of Kurt Vonnegut's "Kilgore Trout". Think breakfast > > > cereals... > > > > That's obvious enough. It's a spoof of Kahlil Gibran. But who? > > It's just satire. I've done a number of fictional quotes from > books for satire purposes myself; I occasionally see them > floating around in people's signatures, without attribution. Yes. But do you know who is responsible for this particular satire? Or are you saying, the book is not the work of an individual, never existed in hard copy and just grew out of the idle time of random netizens such as yourself? The moonboy webpage did suggest that it existed, if I remember right; I've found a couple of other obscure references on the web, not giving much information. I thought it was probably a short-lived cult item which made its way into fortune files around the time unix was being written... R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 11:29:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from odin.ac.hmc.edu (Odin.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D5AD37B403 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brdavis@localhost) by odin.ac.hmc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) id f93ITJu04304; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:29:19 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:29:19 -0700 From: Brooks Davis To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? Message-ID: <20011003112919.A3867@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:25:41PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:25:41PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Yes. But do you know who is responsible for this particular satire? > Or are you saying, the book is not the work of an individual, never > existed in hard copy and just grew out of the idle time of random > netizens such as yourself? Powells.com lists a book titled "Profit" with this author. They don't have it in stock though. -- Brooks --=20 Any statement of the form "X is the one, true Y" is FALSE. PGP fingerprint 655D 519C 26A7 82E7 2529 9BF0 5D8E 8BE9 F238 1AD4 --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7u1j+XY6L6fI4GtQRApzdAJ9GzhWJYsBvKoVpXPmhT6pnLRNQcACgktaM oUhvs68vWEqfgI5PCZxMYdk= =OXS6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 11:36:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8566937B403 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f93IahN82505 ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:36:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA83165 ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:36:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:36:43 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brooks Davis Cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? Message-ID: <20011003203643.E71943@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr> <20011003112919.A3867@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011003112919.A3867@Odin.AC.HMC.Edu>; from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:29:19AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brooks Davis said on Oct 3, 2001 at 11:29:19: > On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:25:41PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > > Yes. But do you know who is responsible for this particular satire? > > Or are you saying, the book is not the work of an individual, never > > existed in hard copy and just grew out of the idle time of random > > netizens such as yourself? > > Powells.com lists a book titled "Profit" with this author. They don't > have it in stock though. Ahh - thanks. I didn't find it in B&N or Amazon. Pity it's not in stock: probably out of print. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 12:19:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9944437B401 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dialup-209.245.142.238.dial1.sanjose1.level3.net ([209.245.142.238] helo=mindspring.com) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.32 #2) id 15orXi-0005o5-00; Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:18:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3BBB64CD.7B3A2C86@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:19:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j mckitrick Cc: David Scheidt , Rahul Siddharthan , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org j mckitrick wrote: > | > For programs, I like its syntax highlighting. I don't know whether > | > nvi has that. > | > | I hope not... > > No offense to David..... > > > Why do some people, especially advanced programmers, hate this feature > so much? Isn't it great for catching misspellings before compiling, and > for helping the eye locate a target? It also seems good for helping the > mind quickly understand the structure of the code. It simply includes > more valuable information. I realize it can be overdone, but since you > can configure it any way you like, why is it so bad? Why does > everything that makes programming easier get labeled a 'crutch' at some > point? I mean, LINT could be called a remedy for poor programming > skills in the first place, but many accomplished programmers us it, > correct? I think it's because we do things like this: main(int ac, char *av[]) { } ... main(int ac, char *av[]) { if( ac < 2) { } } ... main(int ac, char *av[]) { if( ac < 2) { usage(); } } ... main(int ac, char *av[]) { if( ac < 2) { usage(); } while( getopt("hc:f")) { } } ... ...so we never run into problems like unmatched braces. We do similar things for block comments. I agree that it could be useful for catching mispellings of keywords, but since those spellings have been wired into our medulas (we just think of what we want, and our fingers type the right thing for us: there's no "spelling" involved... just like editing in "vi": we think what we want to happen, and our finger know how to make it happen without us having to tell them), they are extremely rare. I guess I always have to laugh when someone used to syntax highlighting is forced to use a standard version of an editor because they don't have the option of compiling their favorite editor on a platform; the poor person is well and truly lost in their own code! I think that's adequate justification for calling it a "crutch": they can't walk without it. Per LINT: most accomplished programmers _don't_ use it. It is very easy to make code pass LINT: it's most useful as a teaching tool, and the compiler these days is almost up to doing the task entirely on its own. Once you get the good habits engrained, then it's not an issue after that: your code will always pass LINT without needing modification. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 12:30:37 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15D6537B403 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-29-9.dial.proxad.net [213.228.29.9]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6115F87E for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:30:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 689 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 2001 19:30:24 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:30:24 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: j mckitrick , David Scheidt , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003213024.A660@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , David Scheidt , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3BBB64CD.7B3A2C86@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BBB64CD.7B3A2C86@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:19:41PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 3, 2001 at 12:19:41: > > > > Why do some people, especially advanced programmers, hate this feature > > so much? Isn't it great for catching misspellings before compiling, and > > for helping the eye locate a target? It also seems good for helping the > > mind quickly understand the structure of the code. It simply includes > > more valuable information. I realize it can be overdone, but since you > > can configure it any way you like, why is it so bad? Why does > > everything that makes programming easier get labeled a 'crutch' at some > > point? I mean, LINT could be called a remedy for poor programming > > skills in the first place, but many accomplished programmers us it, > > correct? > > I think it's because we do things like this: > > main(int ac, char *av[]) > { > } I think if you wrote a lot of math code, with expressions like q[i]=pow(cutoff,expon)* pow(1.0/(SQR(sin(pi*(i+1.0)/L))+SQR(cutoff)),expon/2.0); (or worse) you'd find it more useful to have an editor with syntax highlighting... Yes, you could rewrite that in a more readable way from a brace-matching point of view; however, I think it would make it almost unreadable from a math point of view. As it is, C's lack of support for an exponentiation operator (especially efficient small-integer exponentiation) makes it a royal PITA, and necessitates those ugly pow() functions as well kludges like the SQR above (a macro defined elsewhere). And I'm truly grateful for gcc's __complex__ extension. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 12:41:44 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B669537B406 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.142.238.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.142.238]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f93JfVP26851; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BBB6A1C.DD1E2C69@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:42:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: [ ... ``Kehlog Albran's "The Profit"'' ... ] > Yes. But do you know who is responsible for this particular satire? > Or are you saying, the book is not the work of an individual, never > existed in hard copy and just grew out of the idle time of random > netizens such as yourself? Yes, that's what I'm saying... I'm willing to be presented with a copy, and proven wrong, though. > The moonboy webpage did suggest that it existed, if I remember right; > I've found a couple of other obscure references on the web, not giving > much information. I thought it was probably a short-lived cult item > which made its way into fortune files around the time unix was being > written... If it ever existed, it would probably have been a product of Harvard's "National Lampoon", like "Bored of the Rings". -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 12:47:36 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6EEC37B406 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mindspring.com (dialup-209.245.142.238.Dial1.SanJose1.Level3.net [209.245.142.238]) by swan.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05273; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BBB6B5A.7AA9F659@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:47:38 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: j mckitrick , David Scheidt , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3BBB64CD.7B3A2C86@mindspring.com> <20011003213024.A660@lpt.ens.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > I think if you wrote a lot of math code, with expressions like > > q[i]=pow(cutoff,expon)* > pow(1.0/(SQR(sin(pi*(i+1.0)/L))+SQR(cutoff)),expon/2.0); > > (or worse) you'd find it more useful to have an editor with syntax > highlighting... > > Yes, you could rewrite that in a more readable way from a > brace-matching point of view; however, I think it would make it almost > unreadable from a math point of view. As it is, C's lack of support > for an exponentiation operator (especially efficient small-integer > exponentiation) makes it a royal PITA, and necessitates those ugly > pow() functions as well kludges like the SQR above (a macro defined > elsewhere). And I'm truly grateful for gcc's __complex__ extension. I'm a "vi" user ("Vi anonymous members: ``Hi, Terry!''")... If you are generally paranoid: :set showmatch Otherwise, the % key will let you match {, (, and [ manually. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 12:55:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-2.free.fr (postfix2-2.free.fr [213.228.0.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A77B937B406 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-28-148.dial.proxad.net [213.228.28.148]) by postfix2-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6C55FC37 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:55:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 826 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 2001 19:55:33 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:55:33 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Terry Lambert Cc: j mckitrick , David Scheidt , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011003215533.A802@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Terry Lambert , j mckitrick , David Scheidt , "Gary W. Swearingen" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3BBB64CD.7B3A2C86@mindspring.com> <20011003213024.A660@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB6B5A.7AA9F659@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3BBB6B5A.7AA9F659@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:47:38PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said on Oct 3, 2001 at 12:47:38: > I'm a "vi" user ("Vi anonymous members: ``Hi, Terry!''")... Hi Terry... (unless you think vim doesn't count?) > Otherwise, the % key will let you match {, (, and [ manually. I do that too. (Syntax highlighting doesn't catch everything.) Still, I don't object to being alerted before that if something is wrong. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 13:55:38 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from brain.mics.net (brain.mics.net [209.41.216.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E698E37B403 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by brain.mics.net (Postfix, from userid 150) id 8A7D917BD4; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by brain.mics.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F9815CC5; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 16:55:34 -0400 (EDT) From: David Scheidt To: Terry Lambert Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? In-Reply-To: <3BBB6A1C.DD1E2C69@mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Terry Lambert wrote: > > If it ever existed, it would probably have been a product > of Harvard's "National Lampoon", like "Bored of the Rings". Various used books stores around the US seem to have it. One provides this description: Los Angeles, CA: Price/Stern/Sloan Publishers, 1974 Softbound, Card Covers. Very Good Plus/No Jacket. Second Printing-stated. 5 1/4 x 8. ISBN:0-8431-0260-8. Orange sticker on cover:"Note: This is not "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran..it is also not "Portnoy's Complaint" Peel off sticker." amazon.com recognize the ISBN. I've dispatched a minion to pick up a copy. I'll report back. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 14:57:57 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6396C37B401 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 14:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a035.otenet.gr [212.205.215.35]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.11.5/8.11.5) with ESMTP id f93LvmI06616; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:57:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: (from charon@localhost) by hades.hell.gr (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f93LXFT30050; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:33:15 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from charon@labs.gr) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:33:14 +0300 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011004003314.B8306@hades.hell.gr> References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3BBB64CD.7B3A2C86@mindspring.com> <20011003213024.A660@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20011003213024.A660@lpt.ens.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i X-GPG-Fingerprint: C1EB 0653 DB8B A557 3829 00F9 D60F 941A 3186 03B6 X-URL: http://labs.gr/~charon/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > Terry Lambert said on Oct 3, 2001 at 12:19:41: > > > > > > Why do some people, especially advanced programmers, hate this feature > > > so much? Isn't it great for catching misspellings before compiling, and > > > for helping the eye locate a target? It also seems good for helping the > > > mind quickly understand the structure of the code. It simply includes > > > more valuable information. I realize it can be overdone, but since you > > > can configure it any way you like, why is it so bad? Why does > > > everything that makes programming easier get labeled a 'crutch' at some > > > point? I mean, LINT could be called a remedy for poor programming > > > skills in the first place, but many accomplished programmers us it, > > > correct? > > > > I think it's because we do things like this: > > > > main(int ac, char *av[]) > > { > > } > > I think if you wrote a lot of math code, with expressions like > > q[i]=pow(cutoff,expon)* > pow(1.0/(SQR(sin(pi*(i+1.0)/L))+SQR(cutoff)),expon/2.0); Well, in that case, I prefer LISP for it's instantly enlightening syntax: (setf (aref q i) (* (expt cutoff expon) (expt (/ 1.0 (+ (sqrt (sin (/ (* pi (+ i 1.0)) L))) (sqrt cutoff))) (/ expon 2.0)))) /me runs to hide. > (or worse) you'd find it more useful to have an editor with syntax > highlighting... I think you mean parenthesis matching here, but I'll let it pass, since most descent editors do have this. VI has it bound to %, Emacs uses visual hints to show matching parentheses/braces/brackets, hell even joe(1) from the ports has it bound to ^G. -giorgos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 15: 4:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [216.90.196.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FE1837B407 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kaila@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA81761 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:04:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:04:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Kaila To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone interested in BBS software? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a quick question, I'm trying to gauge the interest of the FreeBSD community in BBS software in general, and wondered if anyone had any thoughts? [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ ICQ : #45010616 ] [ EMail : cfm@o-o.org ] [ IRC : Kaila ] [ Home : http://www.cfm.o-o.org/ ] [ BBS : http://www.aci.o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 15:55:31 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix1-2.free.fr (postfix1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8690637B407 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-5-47-165.dial.proxad.net [212.27.47.165]) by postfix1-2.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15A7AB1DC for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:55:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 1576 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Oct 2001 22:53:20 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:53:20 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Giorgos Keramidas Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: code density vs readability Message-ID: <20011004005320.A1479@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Giorgos Keramidas , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011002213051.A28111@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002214655.A1713@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> <3BBB64CD.7B3A2C86@mindspring.com> <20011003213024.A660@lpt.ens.fr> <20011004003314.B8306@hades.hell.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011004003314.B8306@hades.hell.gr>; from charon@labs.gr on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:33:14AM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Giorgos Keramidas said on Oct 4, 2001 at 00:33:14: > > (or worse) you'd find it more useful to have an editor with syntax > > highlighting... > > I think you mean parenthesis matching here, but I'll let it pass, Well, with syntax highlighting on, vim highlights any unmatched bracket. That's what I meant. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 17:26:33 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kyle.tandemedia.com (kyle.tandemedia.com [216.29.169.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602A537B406 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by kyle.tandemedia.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id B150755401; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (2856 bytes) by servalan.servalan.com via sendmail with P:stdio/R:smart_host/T:hacked-uux (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 19:00:51 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2.0.111 2000-Feb-17 #1 built 2001-Jan-15) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 19:00:51 -0500 (CDT) From: rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com (Richard Todd) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? Newsgroups: servalan.mailinglist.fbsd-chat References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB6A1C.DD1E2C69@mindspring.com> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.6 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In servalan.mailinglist.fbsd-chat Terry Lambert writes: >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >[ ... ``Kehlog Albran's "The Profit"'' ... ] >> Yes. But do you know who is responsible for this particular satire? >> Or are you saying, the book is not the work of an individual, never >> existed in hard copy and just grew out of the idle time of random >> netizens such as yourself? >Yes, that's what I'm saying... I'm willing to be presented with >a copy, and proven wrong, though. It exists. I've got a copy. Price/Stern/Sloan publishers, ISBN 0-8431-0260-8. Probably heinously out of print by now. It's a 1983 printing; the copyright page says "Copyright 1973 Price/Stern/Sloan Publishers" >> The moonboy webpage did suggest that it existed, if I remember right; >> I've found a couple of other obscure references on the web, not giving >> much information. I thought it was probably a short-lived cult item >> which made its way into fortune files around the time unix was being >> written... >If it ever existed, it would probably have been a product >of Harvard's "National Lampoon", like "Bored of the Rings". Nope; the copyright page doesn't say who the real author is, but I'd bet it's comedic writer Roger Price, as other stuff of his appeared from that publisher (and, I think, he was the "Price" in Price/Stern/Sloan). Price is the guy responsible for, amongst other things, the (in)famous "Ship Arriving Too Late To Save a Drowning Witch" drawing. The back cover blurb describing the fictitious Kehlog Albran is amusing: KEHLOG ALBRAN (1933-1927) The author was a lifelong member of the Diner's Club and did much of his most creative writing there. His style was that of a man with a much large brain. Born in Brest-Litovsk, much of his earlier work was published in his native dialect in which language he is still greatly revered. In an area embracing several hectares in that city, he is still looked upon as a demi-god. His drawings and paintings have been exhibited in Quito, Ecuador. His artistic and literary style have been compared by Chester Gould to the work of Ernest Bushmiller and by Bushmiller to the work of Gould. Upon moving to America, his great desires were to write in his adopted language, English, to make a million dollars, and to retire from pseudo-philosophy so that he might open a chain of laundromats. It is the world's loss that he never succeeded in writing in English. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 20:18:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CE237B407 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13607; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:18:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 21:18:09 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Technical Information From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: helping victims of terror Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:10 PM 9/24/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >This crime is not acceptable. There is no justification for it. The scary part is that not only fundamentalist Islam but even the plain language of the Qu'ran actually DO claim to "justify" it. See http://www.secularislam.org/call.htm and http://www.secularislam.org/wtc2.htm As you read these essays, note that, like Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses," they are heresies that -- simply because they critique some aspects of Islam -- would be sufficient to get the authors killed should they show their faces in an Islamic nations. The authors are clearly struggling with the fact that Islam -- not just fundamentalist Islam, but any form of Islam that does not reject portions of the Qu'ran and Islamic law ("Sharia") -- is as incompatible with humanism, separation of church of state, and other aspects of Western culture as oil is with water. They do not wish to reject their religion, but rather to reform it.... They bemoan the fact that since Islam allows for no reform or even moderation, they may be forced to reject it. The essays are both enlightening and scary. Recommended reading. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 3 21: 3:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A9937B403 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 21:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f94431O21642; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA07377; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA07373; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:03:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:03:01 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Kaila Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone interested in BBS software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Kaila wrote: > Just a quick question, I'm trying to gauge the interest of the FreeBSD > community in BBS software in general, and wondered if anyone had any thoughts? I decent PicoSpan clone would be nice. Especially if it works better than YAPP. J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 0:56: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx3.uninterruptible.net (cyclonis.catonic.net [63.160.99.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA22637B406 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.uninterruptible.net (ns1.uninterruptible.net [216.7.46.11]) by mx3.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B895501 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 02:53:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Spaz.Catonic.NET (tnt8-216-180-71-174.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.71.174]) by mail.uninterruptible.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACFF5005C for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:55:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 69D313247; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:56:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Spaz.Catonic.NET (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6406A4C12 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:56:40 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 07:56:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Kris Kirby To: Subject: Fortune Canidate (Was: [nlug] Re: Being Root in X....was Re: dog cussing mandrake 8.1) Message-ID: X-Tech-Support-Email: bofh@catonic.net X-Frames: I hate frames. Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See below: "Think of all the nasty things you could do to yourself if you had a split personality that didn't like you" <- that's the canidate. ----- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR | TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. | ------------------------------------------------------- "Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony." ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:56:00 -0500 From: Rick Bradley Reply-To: nlug@linuxlists.org To: NLUG ListServ Subject: [nlug] Re: Being Root in X....was Re: dog cussing mandrake 8.1 * William Turner (wjturner@home.com) [011004 00:30]: > Just exactly what are the "bad things" that are supposed to happen? I'm presuming you're asking this to get some responses into the archives and not because you actually think there's nothing wrong with treating the root account as a normal user account. Here's some possibilities for ya: 0 - scenario: someone walks up, clicks "terminal" on the pretty start bar, and then types rm -rf / 1 - scenario: you drag /bin (or equivalent) to the trashcan (or equivalent) and hose your system -- this actually happened at Ascend^WLucent -- a friend of mine had to come in and clean up; Sun 450 running CDE but the principle's the same. Of course the WinNT-advocating bonehead didn't even get fired or shot in public. 2 - you open yourself up to any number of now-deadly stupid symlink vulnerabilities, now-deadly buffer overflows, race conditions, etc., by doing this. 3 - every process you run now by default runs as root. This is bad. This is like running Windows -- but on a system where you have enough rope to hang yourself and a group of your closest friends. I.e., it's like running Windows but it's a real operating system. 4 - scenario: someone does (at an xterm in your session): # cat >> ~/.bash_profile export PATH=/tmp:$PATH ^D N - You are running as root. Principle of least privilege is not an arbitrary doctrine if you want to maintain availability, security, integrity, etc. More evidence that running as root is bad: try running perldoc perlfunc as root. You can't. There are plenty of good reasons for this. Some of the problems have to do with physical security. While physical security is always the foundation for broader security (i.e, you could argue "well someone could just boot with their own floppy if they want to screw my system" -- which is only as true as you make it; it took me 45 minutes to begin loading media when I upgraded my firewall last weekend because my firewall has no external drives, no compiler, a password-protected BIOS (to which I'd forgotten the password and none of the backdoors worked and the motherboard docs were lost 5 years ago (I figured out which jumper did the trick though)), and no network downloading tools of any sort, and I didn't even own a working floppy drive) there's no point in making it *easier* for someone to hose your system/network (or worse things than breaking your system...). When someone gains root access to your system they have the capability in almost every case (other than probably sending gpg-encrypted emails or other passphrase-controlled public key operations -- and that's only temporary with a cracker or a key sniffer and access to your key files) of *being* you for all practical purposes. Think about the really nasty things you could do to yourself if you had a split personality that really hated you... The other problems are mostly issues of availability -- you're basically very likely to ruin things and cause downtime, loss of data, and the like. This is really where the bulk of the "don't run everything as root" mentality comes from -- people who've been burned bad this way don't tend to get burned again, and also make sure that people know how bad an idea it is to run everything as root. A misplaced typo or thinko (kill, rm, etc.) causes a lot more damage running as root. Security-wise there are plenty of problems as well -- escalation of privileges isn't tough when you're already escalated. Stupid little race conditions and buffer overflows in mail readers, window managers, etc., suddenly become root compromises. You're almost guaranteed to be network connected and since my email address is now on your machine when you get compromised I become a potential target -- however small the probability it's now higher that someone starts attacking me because you ran X as root. And if that happens then more bad shit starts happening. :-) Rick -- Mostly useless pseudo-random number: 239 Rick Bradley - http://xns.org/=rick@eastcore.net (75 F) -- Send all requests to: nlug-request@linuxlists.org Put your command in the SUBJECT of the message: "subscribe", "unsubscribe", "set digest on", or "set digest off" ********************************************************************** This list is from your pals at NetCentral To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 4:29:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DE5137B401 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 04:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f94BToN65313 ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:29:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA17752 ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:29:50 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:29:49 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Religions (was Re: helping victims of terror) Message-ID: <20011004132949.D16297@lpt.ens.fr> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010924170815.0180aee8@threespace.com> <20010925001027.A750@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011003210717.0442cb20@localhost>; from brett@lariat.org on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:18:09PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said on Oct 3, 2001 at 21:18:09: > http://www.secularislam.org/call.htm > > and > > http://www.secularislam.org/wtc2.htm Well, it's not the first time that I've read these views, but it's the first time I've read them expressed by Muslims. I think it's appropriate that the authors give, as an example of a peace-loving religion, Buddhism and not Christianity. Christianity has become modernised by permitting questioning of the Bible and rejecting parts of it; if you believe the Bible is the literal truth, not only will your views be medieval and somewhat barbaric, but they may to large extents be self-contradictory. Islam must start to develop the same sort of worldview, emphasise the positive aspects of the Koran and ignore the unpalatable parts. It is certainly possible. In India, starting from a few hundred years ago and to some extent until today, strains of Islam (Sufism, etc) developed that were strongly influenced by Hindu thought and were quite multicultural and non-violent in nature; the tombs (dargahs) of some of these Sufi saints are, even today, pilgrimage centres for both Muslims and Hindus. The most famous is that of Khwaja Moinuddin Chisti in Ajmer. I admire Buddhism because its founder encouraged questioning and scepticism from the start, did not talk about God, discouraged rituals, worship and belief in miracles and omens, and emphasised only correctness of one's actions and compassion towards other living creatures. I'm particularly astonished that, 2500 years ago, he rejected astrology; at that time, not much was known of modern science and astronomy, and for all anyone knew the stars could indeed have been up there to guide our lives. But the Buddha found the metaphysical objections to this sufficient to reject it. He said that it is only our actions that determine the future, and not the stars or omens or prayers. Today in the 21st century, it is still hard to persuade the majority of the world's people of this. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 4:52:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F4D37B401 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 04:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f94BqbN67614 ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:52:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA18736 ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:52:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:52:36 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Richard Todd Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? Message-ID: <20011004135236.B17756@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB6A1C.DD1E2C69@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 07:00:51PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Richard Todd said on Oct 3, 2001 at 19:00:51: > It exists. I've got a copy. Price/Stern/Sloan publishers, ISBN > 0-8431-0260-8. I suppose there's no chance I can buy it from you? :( I was thinking of putting up the moonboy.com version on the web again; but I'd like to contact the original author if at all possible. From what you say the author isn't identified. How many pages long is the book? If/when I do put up a web page of it, maybe I'd like to know from you how complete it is, with respect to the book. - Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 4:56:41 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2799337B403 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 04:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA51652; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:56:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Danish Roulette From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Oct 2001 13:56:35 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 7 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org # cd /usr/src # ln -s `/usr/games/fortune` /etc/malloc.conf # make world DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 10:31:15 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.speakeasy.net (mail5.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF69137B401 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77839 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 17:31:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO laptop.baldwin.cx) ([64.81.54.73]) (envelope-sender ) by mail5.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 4 Oct 2001 17:31:10 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: RE: Danish Roulette Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 04-Oct-01 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: ># cd /usr/src ># ln -s `/usr/games/fortune` /etc/malloc.conf ># make world You are a sick, sick individual. :) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 11:50:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postfix2-1.free.fr (postfix2-1.free.fr [213.228.0.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C6037B403 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bluerondo.a.la.turk (nas-cbv-2-28-236.dial.proxad.net [213.228.28.236]) by postfix2-1.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9788F26B for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 20:50:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 664 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Oct 2001 18:49:12 -0000 Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 20:49:12 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20011004204912.A629@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This may be a dumb question to most of you, but On 04-Oct-01 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: ># cd /usr/src ># ln -s `/usr/games/fortune` /etc/malloc.conf ># make world What does the middle line accomplish? It only seems to give ln: /etc/malloc.conf: No such file or directory which makes sense, since `/usr/games/fortune` will hardly ever give you a file reference which actually exists. R To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 11:55:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89AA837B401 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.org [12.23.109.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22599; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:55:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011004125354.0586d400@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 12:54:59 -0600 To: Rahul Siddharthan , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran? Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20011003202541.D71943@lpt.ens.fr> References: <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> <20011002154620.A12444@lpt.ens.fr> <20011002192857.A22031@lpt.ens.fr> <3BBB5724.62CC952D@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:25 PM 10/3/2001, Rahul Siddharthan wrote: >Yes. But do you know who is responsible for this particular satire? >Or are you saying, the book is not the work of an individual, never >existed in hard copy and just grew out of the idle time of random >netizens such as yourself? It existed in hard copy. I recall liking the cover art. --Brett "The covers of this book are too far apart." --Scathing book review by Ambrose Bierce To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 11:57:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [216.90.196.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF8037B406 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (kaila@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA90354; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:56:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kaila@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:56:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Kaila To: James Howard Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone interested in BBS software? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, James Howard wrote: >> Just a quick question, I'm trying to gauge the interest of the FreeBSD >> community in BBS software in general, and wondered if anyone had any >thoughts? > >I decent PicoSpan clone would be nice. Especially if it works better than >YAPP. > >J~ I'm not very familiar with PicoSpan, can you give me a reference, or summarize the important features? I'm currently implementing Peridot 2.0, which is pre alpha, and am looking to features to add to it. I'm considering at the moment exactly how portable I want to make it, which is why I'm wondering how interested the community at large would be in the package. If there's not much interest specifically within the FreeBSD community, I'll make it more portable, at the cost of a few specific features. Currently it works as a "shell style" system, and the test system responds well under telnet, rlogin, and ssh. [ Name : Christine F. Maxwell ] [ ICQ : #45010616 ] [ EMail : cfm@o-o.org ] [ IRC : Kaila ] [ Home : http://www.cfm.o-o.org/ ] [ BBS : http://www.aci.o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 12: 1:12 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927BE37B405 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA53439; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:01:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des@ofug.org) X-URL: http://www.ofug.org/~des/ X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message do not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or company with which I am or have been affiliated. To: Rahul Siddharthan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: none References: <20011004204912.A629@lpt.ens.fr> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 04 Oct 2001 21:01:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20011004204912.A629@lpt.ens.fr> Message-ID: Lines: 16 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) Emacs/20.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rahul Siddharthan writes: > What does the middle line accomplish? It only seems to give > ln: /etc/malloc.conf: No such file or directory > which makes sense, since `/usr/games/fortune` will hardly ever > give you a file reference which actually exists. 'ln -s' doesn't care if the file exists. It didn't work for you because I forgot to wrap `/usr/games/fortune` in double quotes: des@des ~% ln -s "`/usr/games/fortune`" foo des@des ~% ll foo lrwxr-xr-x 1 des des 161 Oct 4 20:58 foo@ -> "No self-respecting fish would want to be wrapped in that kind of?paper."???-- Mike Royko on the Chicago Sun-Times after it was??? taken over by Rupert Murdoch DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ofug.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 4 12:18:43 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from linus.highpoint.edu (linus.highpoint.edu [192.154.46.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF49037B403 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from zhartley@localhost) by linus.highpoint.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f94JHVo16543 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:17:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:17:31 -0400 From: Zach Hartley To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20011004151731.A16303@linus.highpoint.edu> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20011004204912.A629@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20011004204912.A629@lpt.ens.fr>; from rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:49:12PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Around Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:49:12PM +0200, Rahul Siddharthan thus spake the following: > ># cd /usr/src > ># ln -s `/usr/games/fortune` /etc/malloc.conf > ># make world > > What does the middle line accomplish? It only seems to give > ln: /etc/malloc.conf: No such file or directory > which makes sense, since `/usr/games/fortune` will hardly ever > give you a file reference which actually exists. > I believe some would call it a "joke", that is, something to make others laugh.... Zach -- Zachary Todd Hartley "Attempted murder. Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?" --Sideshow Bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 7:36:47 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from po4.glue.umd.edu (po4.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C1E37B405 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 07:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:root@z.glue.umd.edu [128.8.10.71]) by po4.glue.umd.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f95Eafi08936; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from z.glue.umd.edu (IDENT:sendmail@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16153; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by z.glue.umd.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16149; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:36:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: z.glue.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:36:40 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard To: Kaila Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone interested in BBS software? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Kaila wrote: > I'm not very familiar with PicoSpan, can you give me a reference, or > summarize the important features? I'm currently implementing Peridot > 2.0, which is pre alpha, and am looking to features to add to it. > I'm considering at the moment exactly how portable I want to make it, > which is why I'm wondering how interested the community at large would > be in the package. If there's not much interest specifically within > the FreeBSD community, I'll make it more portable, at the cost of a > few specific features. > > Currently it works as a "shell style" system, and the test system > responds well under telnet, rlogin, and ssh. PicoSpan was made famous by the WELL. However, you can use it for free thanks the fine people at www.cyberspace.org. YAPP, is mostly like PicoSpan, but buggier. It can be used at www.arbornet.org. They are both shell-based systems. telnet to either cyberspace.org or arbornet.org and login as newuser. J~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 7:44:18 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 461E837B406 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 07:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.121]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06894 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:44:14 -0400 Message-ID: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB095692F44AF@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David" To: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Kehlog Albran Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:44:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you really want the book, go see http://www.half.com - I got mine for <$5.00 delivered. There were several copies available last I looked. I have found some fairly obscure stuff on there (Intro to Tagalog, anyone?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 11:50:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C8537B405 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f95IolN56261 ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:50:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id UAA29832 ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:50:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 20:50:47 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: "Gray, David" Cc: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran Message-ID: <20011005205047.A29528@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Gray, David" , 'FreeBSD Chat List' References: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB095692F44AF@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB095692F44AF@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com>; from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 10:44:13AM -0400 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If you really want the book, go see http://www.half.com - I > got mine for <$5.00 delivered. There were several copies > available last I looked. They now charge $25, and they only accept people living in the US... Thanks anyway. Maybe I'll ask a friend in the US to look for it. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 11:55:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tsunami.acidpit.org (tsunami.acidpit.org [206.190.163.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E4937B405 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rch@localhost) by tsunami.acidpit.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) id f95ItJL74562 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 14:55:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from rch@acidpit.org) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 14:55:19 -0400 From: Robert Hough To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: WRS Lay Offs - Questions Message-ID: <20011005145519.A74507@acidpit.org> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just curious, what effect if any will this have on the FreeBSD project? I thought I saw Jordan answer these before, but I can't seem to find his responses. -- Robert Hough (rch@acidpit.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 12:25:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [63.114.249.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C5F37B406 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.121]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17385; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg2.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:24:34 -0400 Message-ID: <0BC5187E59E2D411A81000508BB095692F44B1@nmrusdunsx6.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David" To: "'Rahul Siddharthan'" Cc: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: RE: Kehlog Albran Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:24:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm, well there were a couple in the 10-15$ range, looks like somebody else figured it out, too. Which still doesn't help the US only bit :-( -----Original Message----- From: Rahul Siddharthan [mailto:rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in] Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 2:51 PM To: Gray, David Cc: 'FreeBSD Chat List' Subject: Re: Kehlog Albran > If you really want the book, go see http://www.half.com - I > got mine for <$5.00 delivered. There were several copies > available last I looked. They now charge $25, and they only accept people living in the US... Thanks anyway. Maybe I'll ask a friend in the US to look for it. Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 12:54: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pilchuck.reedmedia.net (pilchuck.reedmedia.net [63.145.197.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D710C37B406 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from reed by pilchuck.reedmedia.net with local-esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 15pb2b-0003NA-00; Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:53:49 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:53:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeremy C. Reed" To: Robert Hough Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WRS Lay Offs - Questions In-Reply-To: <20011005145519.A74507@acidpit.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Robert Hough wrote: > Just curious, what effect if any will this have on the FreeBSD project? > I thought I saw Jordan answer these before, but I can't seem to find > his responses. I had a phone interview with Wind River and they provided me with a lot of information about this. I'll be finishing the article today to be published at BSD Today. Jeremy C. Reed http://www.reedmedia.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 13: 1:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hanmail.net (s210-218-137-16.thrunet.ne.kr [210.218.137.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC12137B403 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 13:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: rksekgoo@hanmail.net From: Rin To: Subject: ■ 누구나 가능합니다! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 05:01:38 +0900 X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Mailtouch 1.0 Message-Id: <20011005200130.EC12137B403@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org

먼저, 스팸관련 메일이라고 오해하실 것 같아 괜찮은 사이트를 알려드립니다.
■ http://ezguide.wo.to ■
뮤직관련정보, 인터넷 정보 등 다양한 정보를 보여주는 'EZ-GUIDE'입니다.
웹 서핑 하시면서 띄어놓으시면 괜찮겠다 싶어서 알려드립니다.
귀하에게 유용한 정보였으면 하는 마음 간절합니다.
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일단, 이 메일은 #한번만# 발송하는 것임을 알려드립니다.
원치 않으셨다면 진심으로 사과드립니다. 정말 죄송합니다.
귀하의 메일주소는 인터넷 서핑을 하다가 우연히 알게 되었습니다.
저희는 귀하에 대해 어떠한 정보도 가지고 있지 않습니다. 안심하십시오.
또한 귀하에게 아무런 피해를 주지 않습니다, 맹세합니다.

● http://flashgetmoney.wo.to ●   또는...
● http://speedgetmoney.wo.to ●
위 사이트를 복사하신 뒤 인터넷 익스플로러 주소창에 붙여넣기 하시고 엔터하십시오.
귀하가 이 사이트를 만나게 된 것은 정말 행운일 것입니다.
누구나 할 수 있습니다. 저는 100% 장담합니다.
불법 절대 아닙니다. 대기업 삼성과 제휴하고 BM특허출원까지 낸 사이트입니다.
거짓말이라면 이런 것을 알려드리지 않습니다.
위 사이트에 들어가신 다음에 아니라고 생각되시면 바로 나오시면 되겠죠?
아예 접속하지 않으셔도 좋습니다. 그건 귀하의 판단에 달렸으니까요.
이 메일을 수신거부 하고 싶으시면 꼭 jpdman@hamail.net으로 메일주시면 감사하겠습니다.
혹시 메일이 두세통씩 중복되어 가신 분이 계시다면 정말 사과드립니다.
서버오류로 그렇게 될 수가 있기 때문입니다.

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읽어주셔서 감사합니다. 귀하에게 언제나 좋은 일 일어나길 바랍니다
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To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 5 22: 8: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB3637B407 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 22:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA94643; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 22:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 22:07:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Robert Hough Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WRS Lay Offs - Questions In-Reply-To: <20011005145519.A74507@acidpit.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Robert Hough wrote: > Just curious, what effect if any will this have on the FreeBSD project? > I thought I saw Jordan answer these before, but I can't seem to find > his responses. > There's a story and a bunch of responses (including Jordan's) at (if I can type this right) http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=2430 Also Nik Clayton's story on his interview with the WRS folks (earlier and not substantively different from Jeremy Reed's story) on http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/05/0855222&mode=flat At least that's what my address window reports. Annelise -- Annelise Anderson Author of: FreeBSD: An Open-Source Operating System for Your PC Available from: mall.daemonnews.org and amazon.com Book Website: http://www.bittreepress.com/FreeBSD/introbook/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message