From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Mon Nov 18 10:34:52 2002
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Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 10:34:30 -0800
From: Johnson David <DavidJohnson@Siemens.com>
Subject: The worst security problems?
To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Message-id: <200211181034.30828.DavidJohnson@Siemens.com>
Organization: Siemens Medical Systems
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Here's a story about how a recent report on security vulnerabilities was 
skewed in Microsoft's favor. 

"In my opinion, the result was misleading in that many readers and editors 
would have seen this as an FBI certification of the relative equality of 
security problems between systems running Microsoft Windows and those running 
Unix."

http://www.linuxworld.com/site-stories/2002/1111.fbi.html

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Mon Nov 18 17:22:11 2002
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From: eminker@att.net
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Subject: Help Needed for FreeBSD Presentation
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 01:22:04 +0000
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Hi,

I was hoping that someone might know of a listing of businesses using FreeBSD. 
In the not too distant past, I've seen online articles, but I can't seem to 
find anything today.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am doing a presentation of FreeBSD 
vs Windows (TCO and Stability) and would like some ammunition.


--
Regards,

Evan M Inker

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Tue Nov 19  2:45:19 2002
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From: Arjan van Leeuwen <avleeuwen@piwebs.com>
To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org
Subject: 5.0-DP2
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:45:12 +0100
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Now that 5.0-DP2 is out, isn't it a good idea to make a press release out=
 of=20
it, that the media can quote from? Remember, we need to hype 5.0...

Arjan

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Tue Nov 19  4:27: 0 2002
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To: Arjan van Leeuwen <avleeuwen@piwebs.com>
Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 5.0-DP2 
In-Reply-To: Message from Arjan van Leeuwen <avleeuwen@piwebs.com> 
   of "Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:45:12 +0100." <200211191145.12974.avleeuwen@piwebs.com> 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:30:36 +0100
From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
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Arjan van Leeuwen wrote:
> Now that 5.0-DP2 is out, isn't it a good idea to make a press release out of 
> it, that the media can quote from? Remember, we need to hype 5.0...

Until `cvs -r RELENG_5_0_RELEASE src` delivers,  I'd suggest caution in
case release builders have to withdraw something.

Julian Stacey
jhs @ berklix.com	Computer Systems Engineer & Unix Consultant, Munich.
   Ihr Rauchen = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz !  Schnupftabak probieren.

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Tue Nov 19  4:52:22 2002
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help




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Tue Nov 19  5:14:52 2002
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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:14:03 -0600
From: Eric Anderson <anderson@centtech.com>
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To: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
Cc: Arjan van Leeuwen <avleeuwen@piwebs.com>, advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 5.0-DP2
References: <200211191230.gAJCUas94546@flip.jhs.private>
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Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> Arjan van Leeuwen wrote:
> 
>>Now that 5.0-DP2 is out, isn't it a good idea to make a press release out of 
>>it, that the media can quote from? Remember, we need to hype 5.0...
> 
> 
> Until `cvs -r RELENG_5_0_RELEASE src` delivers,  I'd suggest caution in
> case release builders have to withdraw something.

I think we can still hype it up - without disclosing much.  We can do 
just the same as everyone else - make a big deal about DP2, and what it 
means to the community, how people "feel" about it, blah blah.  Just 
something to get people recognizing that FreeBSD 5.0 is coming and all 
should be getting ready to enjoy the benefits.

Eric



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Anderson	   Systems Administrator      Centaur Technology
Beware the fury of a patient man.
------------------------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Tue Nov 19  5:29:10 2002
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Subject: Re: 5.0-DP2
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Precisely. Get people primed for the release. When it is released 
everyone should feel they want to take the natural step and deploy it.

Take a peek at how Microsoft et al do. Raise expectations enormously. 
Disclose some well defined issues (like that irritating paper clip 
helper or something --- mind you FreeBSD have better things). People 
will talk about it and that's the point. Nothing succeeds like success!

Press releases (releasii:) are always good material.


/Micke



On tisdag, nov 19, 2002, at 14:14 Europe/Stockholm, Eric Anderson wrote:

> Julian H. Stacey wrote:
>> Arjan van Leeuwen wrote:
>>> Now that 5.0-DP2 is out, isn't it a good idea to make a press 
>>> release out of it, that the media can quote from? Remember, we need 
>>> to hype 5.0...
>> Until `cvs -r RELENG_5_0_RELEASE src` delivers,  I'd suggest caution 
>> in
>> case release builders have to withdraw something.
>
> I think we can still hype it up - without disclosing much.  We can do 
> just the same as everyone else - make a big deal about DP2, and what 
> it means to the community, how people "feel" about it, blah blah.  
> Just something to get people recognizing that FreeBSD 5.0 is coming 
> and all should be getting ready to enjoy the benefits.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Eric Anderson	   Systems Administrator      Centaur Technology
> Beware the fury of a patient man.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Tue Nov 19  5:31:10 2002
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To: Eric Anderson <anderson@centtech.com>
Cc: Arjan van Leeuwen <avleeuwen@piwebs.com>, advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 5.0-DP2 
In-Reply-To: Message from Eric Anderson <anderson@centtech.com> 
   of "Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:14:03 CST." <3DDA391B.40104@centtech.com> 
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:34:52 +0100
From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
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Eric Anderson wrote:
> Julian H. Stacey wrote:
> > Arjan van Leeuwen wrote:
> > 
> >>Now that 5.0-DP2 is out, isn't it a good idea to make a press release out o
> f 
> >>it, that the media can quote from? Remember, we need to hype 5.0...
> > 
> > 
> > Until `cvs -r RELENG_5_0_RELEASE src` delivers,  I'd suggest caution in
> > case release builders have to withdraw something.
> 
> I think we can still hype it up - without disclosing much.  We can do 
> just the same as everyone else - make a big deal about DP2, and what it 
> means to the community, how people "feel" about it, blah blah.  Just 
> something to get people recognizing that FreeBSD 5.0 is coming and all 
> should be getting ready to enjoy the benefits.
> 
> Eric

Sounds a good middle course :-)

Julian Stacey
jhs @ berklix.com	Computer Systems Engineer & Unix Consultant, Munich.
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Tue Nov 19 10:56:59 2002
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Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:56:44 -0800
From: Johnson David <DavidJohnson@Siemens.com>
Subject: Re: 5.0-DP2
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On Tuesday 19 November 2002 02:45 am, Arjan van Leeuwen wrote:
> Now that 5.0-DP2 is out, isn't it a good idea to make a press release out
> of it, that the media can quote from? Remember, we need to hype 5.0...

Since I was challenged to offer benefits corresponding with 5.0 features, 
here's a tentative list for a few features that strike my fancy...

FreeBSD now has additional support from many hot-swappable devices, such as 
Firewire and USB modems. New classes of consumer devices are available to the 
FreeBSD user, increasing the value of their hardware investment.

FreeBSD now supports an extensible Mandatory Access Control framework and 
filesystem Access Control Lists (ACLs). A robust and flexible security 
framework lets systems administrators sleep easily. Access to sensitive 
company data can be easily partitioned among development groups.

The uvisor(4) driver for connecting Handspring Visors via USB has been added. 
Users of FreeBSD can now use their Handspring Visors with all of their 
systems at home or at work.

Support for the 80386 processor has been removed from the GENERIC kernel. The 
default FreeBSD kernel is now more optimized for modern CPUs. No longer do 
you have to settle for performance draining compatibility with hardware you 
haven't owned in a decade.

``Zero copy'' support has been added to the networking stack. This eliminates 
one of the more significant bottlenecks in network throughput, improving the 
performance of your network servers and front line portals.

FreeBSD can now treat ATA devices as SCSI devices. Software that expects SCSI 
hardware can now be used even if your hardware is the common and inexpensive 
ATA format. Now there is no need to reboot into another operating system to 
burn your Compact Discs.

Preliminary Cardbus support under NEWCARD has been added. Installing and using 
FreeBSD on laptops has never been easier!

Drivers have been added to support the Direct Rendering Infrastructure, which 
can used to provide 3D acceleration within XFree86. Faster graphics and 
higher framerates means that FreeBSD is more suitable than ever for 3D gaming 
and scientific simulations.

fsck now has support for background checks, speeding up the boot process. 
Harddrives can now be checked while you work on other tasks.

gcc has been updated to version 3.2.1. The full power of C++ templates and the 
STL are available to the developer, while gaining even greater code 
optimization.

FreeBSD packages are now compressed with bzip2, a more efficient data 
compression method than gzip. Packages smaller and consume less of your 
valuable bandwidth and storage. A network install of FreeBSD will be faster 
than ever.

That's it... Just some ideas...

David Johnson

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21  5:51:32 2002
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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:51:15 +0000
From: Matthew Seaman <m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk>
To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: TheRegister article on Hotmail
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28226.html

Cites an internal MS white paper discussing switching Hotmail from
Unix over to Win2k, which ends up sounding like a sales pitch for
FreeBSD...

	Cheers,

	Matthew

-- 
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.                       26 The Paddocks
                                                      Savill Way
                                                      Marlow
Tel: +44 1628 476614                                  Bucks., SL7 1TH UK

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21  7:27:25 2002
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Is MS still trying to port Hotmail to Windows??  Hotmail is a good example
of exactly the kind of environment that will probably _never_ benefit from
migration to Windows.  Single-purpose, high-volume applications work best
with stripped, simple operating systems that are designed to do nothing but
achieve that purpose as efficiently as possible; this is diametrically
opposed to the philosophy of a do-it-all, general-purpose, GUI-based
operating system such as Windows.  And as Microsoft itself apparently
admits, UNIX is admirably suited to this type of use, since it is simple to
begin with and can be stripped further for speed by any qualified
administrator.

MS was already looking to replace Hotmail's custom SMTP (IIRC) with
Microsoft Exchange Server years ago, but Exchange just would not scale, and
Exchange Server is ill-suited to simple, high-volume environments (although
it is ideally suited to lower-volume, complex environments such as internal
corporate mail systems).

Still, anything is possible if you can throw enough hardware at it, and if
you are willing and able to tweak software until it looks like what you
should have installed in the first place.

One reason MS is so hellbent on this, incidentally, is that the company was
constantly belittled by customers back in the days when it sold Microsoft
Mail.  See, Microsoft never actually used Microsoft Mail internally; the
company itself used the MS Mail client, true ... but it used a Xenix-based
back-end that was never sold to customers in place of the standard MS Mail
MS-DOS-based MTA.  Customers knew this and humuliated Microsoft regularly
over the fact.

When Microsoft Exchange Server was released, Microsoft vowed to move all
internal e-mail to Exchange ... and it did.  It took a while, but the
migration went well, and Microsoft Exchange Server is perfectly suited to
Microsoft's internal use (in fact, some design features were influenced by
Microsoft's own practices).  It also happens to be well suited to just about
any other corporate or organizational e-mail environment, much more so than
SMTP or similar bare-bones e-mail systems.  Microsoft's dream, though,
extended further, to using Microsoft Exchange Server (which represented a
staggering development investment for the company) for ISPs and
heterogenous, Internet-based e-mail systems.  But Exchange Server has never
really been able to handle that.  The same feature-rich design and resulting
bloat that makes the e-mail systems arguably the best anyone can buy for
internal corporate use also makes it a poor choice for high-volume,
feature-lean, heterogenous environments such as Internet Service Providers
... and Hotmail.

The fact is, one size does not fit all, and you simply cannot write an
e-mail system and OS that will be all things to all people.  Windows and
Exchange definitely have very secure places in the IT world, but they can't
do all e-mail for everyone, and Hotmail is just about as far from the ideal
case for Exchange as any e-mail system can be (even standard SMTP really was
never quite suitable for Hotmail, and had to be modified).

The attempt to convert Hotmail to Windows and Exchange is a good example of
politics and marketing overruling common sense.  I often think that nobody
is really fooled by this except Microsoft itself.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Seaman" <m.seaman@infracaninophile.co.uk>
To: <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 14:51
Subject: TheRegister article on Hotmail


>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28226.html
>
> Cites an internal MS white paper discussing switching Hotmail from
> Unix over to Win2k, which ends up sounding like a sales pitch for
> FreeBSD...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.                       26 The Paddocks
>                                                       Savill Way
>                                                       Marlow
> Tel: +44 1628 476614                                  Bucks., SL7 1TH UK
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21  8: 0: 4 2002
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From: Ceri Davies <setantae@submonkey.net>
To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: TheRegister article on Hotmail
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On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 04:27:18PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Is MS still trying to port Hotmail to Windows??  Hotmail is a good example
> of exactly the kind of environment that will probably _never_ benefit from
> migration to Windows.

<snip>

> The attempt to convert Hotmail to Windows and Exchange is a good example of
> politics and marketing overruling common sense.  I often think that nobody
> is really fooled by this except Microsoft itself.

If you actually read the article, you'll see that they are converting the web
servers.

> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/28226.html

Ceri
-- 
I am the axe of a 250 pound woman!

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21  8: 3:42 2002
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References: <20021121135115.GA63164@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophi> <006d01c29172$7abb7500$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021121160000.GA68892@submonkey.net>
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Ceri writes:

> If you actually read the article, you'll see that
> they are converting the web servers.

I did read the article, and both the front-end and the back-end servers are
mentioned.  In any case, the same observations I've already made (albeit to
a lesser extent) apply to front-end web servers.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21  8:15: 6 2002
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From: Ceri Davies <setantae@submonkey.net>
To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: TheRegister article on Hotmail
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On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 05:03:38PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Ceri writes:
> 
> > If you actually read the article, you'll see that
> > they are converting the web servers.
> 
> I did read the article, and both the front-end and the back-end servers are
> mentioned.

grep -i exchange shows no matches, and grep -i smtp only brings up one
match where it says "The SMTP service of IIS was used to handle outgoing
mail", and this is referring to the webservers themselves.

> In any case, the same observations I've already made (albeit to
> a lesser extent) apply to front-end web servers.

Only this one (which I like, and will probably quote at parties ;) :

    Still, anything is possible if you can throw enough hardware at it, and if
    you are willing and able to tweak software until it looks like what you
    should have installed in the first place.

The rest of your mail was about Exchange and how it isn't suited to Hotmail,
which nobody said anyway.  Sorry for jumping on you anyway.

Ceri
-- 
By the fearless blood!

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21  8:26: 3 2002
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Ceri writes:

> The rest of your mail was about Exchange and
> how it isn't suited to Hotmail, which nobody
> said anyway.

If they are converting Hotmail mail servers to Windows, they are converting
to Exchange.  Microsoft really doesn't have any other e-mail products worth
mentioning; they put pretty much all their eggs into one basket with
Exchange.  Besides, there wouldn't be much point (ideologically or
technically) to converting to Windows just to run a Windows version of
sendmail.

If they are still running Apache on the front-end, that very much surprises
me, as I had understood that they went to IIS for the front end long ago.
The corporate site (microsoft.com) has been on IIS for ages; it takes a
tremendous amount of hardware to do the job, especially given the penchant
of Microsoft to make every single last page on the Web site an ASP page
(such that the servers spend a great deal of their time executing scripts),
but it can be done.  Despite all that hardware, Microsoft's site is
invariably slow to respond, probably because of the six billion lines of
VBScript and Javascript that it must execute on the server for each page
served.  (I sometimes get the impression that, from Microsoft's standpoint,
a mere document containing only data is somehow unacceptable, and everything
must also contain executable code before it is satisfactory--clearly
developers rule in some respects at MS!)

Anyway, converting from UNIX to Windows makes no sense for high-volume,
dedicated server farms with critical uptime requirements.  It does make
sense in some other environments, where other considerations are paramount
(ease of use for the uninitiated, flexibility and features, GUI support,
etc.).

Conversely, though, converting from Windows to UNIX on the desktop is just
as absurd as doing the opposite on the server, and the fact that many people
try it anyway just proves that there are irrational and fanatical people on
both sides of the fence.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21 10:53:48 2002
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> Conversely, though, converting from Windows to UNIX on the desktop is just
> as absurd as doing the opposite on the server, and the fact that many
> people try it anyway just proves that there are irrational and fanatical
> people on both sides of the fence.

Mac OSX is absurd?

David

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21 11:31:22 2002
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On 21-Nov-2002 Johnson David wrote:
> 
>> Conversely, though, converting from Windows to UNIX on the desktop is just
>> as absurd as doing the opposite on the server, and the fact that many
>> people try it anyway just proves that there are irrational and fanatical
>> people on both sides of the fence.
> 
> Mac OSX is absurd?

Only to people who haven't used it. :)  Ignorance is bliss, didn't
you know? :)

-- 

John Baldwin <jhb@FreeBSD.org>  <><  http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/
"Power Users Use the Power to Serve!"  -  http://www.FreeBSD.org/

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21 11:33:40 2002
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David writes:

> Mac OSX is absurd?

Mac OS X has a tremendous amount of proprietary code added to it to make it
a dedicated desktop.  It's arguable that UNIX was still a poor choice for
the underlying OS, but I'm sure it was orders of magnitude cheaper than
writing a completely new OS, which Apple probably could not afford.  Anyway,
obviously if you add enough code to an operating system, you can make it
usable for just about any purpose--and that's what Apple did.  (See my
previous comments on throwing hardware at a problem and "tweaking" the OS
... same principle.)


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Thu Nov 21 12:43:46 2002
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I think this is an excellent article, when it comes to recommending
FreeBSD to corporations:

http://www.securityoffice.net/mssecrets/hotmail.html

---
Jan "ftyczka" Szumiec, 504125060
zobacz http://ftyczka.org
       http://wazelina.com


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22  7: 2:40 2002
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On 21 Nov 2002 16:26:08 +0000,
         anthony@freebie.atkielski.com <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
         wrote in newsgroup sol.lists.freebsd.advocacy:

> Conversely, though, converting from Windows to UNIX on the desktop is just
> as absurd as doing the opposite on the server, and the fact that many people
> try it anyway just proves that there are irrational and fanatical people on
> both sides of the fence.

You were doing well up until then. 
For some it may not be suitable, but I'm currently sitting here with over 50
windows open on a FreeBSD X desktop, and its stable, and fast.

I only boot into windows for those apps that only work on windows, but
99% of the time I sit in the FreeBSD desktop, because I use my system SERIOUSLY.

Jamie




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On Friday 22 November 2002 07:02 am, Jamie Jones wrote:

> > Conversely, though, converting from Windows to UNIX on the desktop is
> > just as absurd as doing the opposite on the server, and the fact that
> > many people try it anyway just proves that there are irrational and
> > fanatical people on both sides of the fence.
>
> You were doing well up until then.
> For some it may not be suitable, but I'm currently sitting here with over
> 50 windows open on a FreeBSD X desktop, and its stable, and fast.

I second that sentiment. I have FreeBSD at work and at home. Monday I had to 
boot into Win2K at work for ten minutes to schedule a meeting via Outlook 
Calendar. The rest of the week has been FreeBSD (and Solaris) only. Yesterday 
at home I booted into Windows to watch the LOTR:TT trailer on Quicktime. The 
rest of the week has been on FreeBSD.

Both systems are FreeBSD 4.7, running KDE and OpenOffice. These are 
desktop/workstation machines, not servers. If I were a game player, then I 
might stick with Windows. But I'm not. All my web surfing, emailing, 
development, multimedia, painting and drawing, office "productivity", and 
solitaire needs are met in an environment that makes Windows look like a 
child's tool.

David

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 15:40:51 2002
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From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org>
To: Jamie Jones <jamie@dyslexicfish.com>
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Subject: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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On Friday, 22 November 2002 at 15:02:36 +0000, Jamie Jones wrote:
> On 21 Nov 2002 16:26:08 +0000,
>          anthony@freebie.atkielski.com <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
>          wrote in newsgroup sol.lists.freebsd.advocacy:
>
>> Conversely, though, converting from Windows to UNIX on the desktop is just
>> as absurd as doing the opposite on the server, and the fact that many people
>> try it anyway just proves that there are irrational and fanatical people on
>> both sides of the fence.
>
> You were doing well up until then.
> For some it may not be suitable, but I'm currently sitting here with over 50
> windows open on a FreeBSD X desktop, and its stable, and fast.

Agreed 100%.  I've had to use Microsoft from time to time, but for my
purposes it's a toy compared to FreeBSD.  It would take me several
times as long to get things done if I had to use Microsoft.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 16:32:26 2002
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:31:59 +0200
From: Alexandr Kovalenko <never@nevermind.kiev.ua>
To: Johnson David <DavidJohnson@Siemens.com>
Cc: Jamie Jones <jamie@dyslexicfish.com>, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: TheRegister article on Hotmail
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Hello, Johnson David!

On Fri, Nov 22, 2002 at 10:37:11AM -0800, you wrote:

> > You were doing well up until then.
> > For some it may not be suitable, but I'm currently sitting here with over
> > 50 windows open on a FreeBSD X desktop, and its stable, and fast.
> 
> I second that sentiment. I have FreeBSD at work and at home. Monday I had to 
> boot into Win2K at work for ten minutes to schedule a meeting via Outlook 
> Calendar. The rest of the week has been FreeBSD (and Solaris) only. Yesterday 
> at home I booted into Windows to watch the LOTR:TT trailer on Quicktime. The 
> rest of the week has been on FreeBSD.

You can watch QT movies on FreeBSD using wine, it works just great. :)

-- 
NEVE-RIPE, will build world for food
Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group
http://uafug.org.ua/

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 16:35:11 2002
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To: DavidJohnson@Siemens.com, never@nevermind.kiev.ua
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> You can watch QT movies on FreeBSD using wine, it works just great. :)

I thought "mplayer" worked natively with QT files.. Is this not so ?

Jamie


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 16:44:42 2002
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 02:44:25 +0200
From: Alexandr Kovalenko <never@nevermind.kiev.ua>
To: Jamie Jones <jamie@dyslexicfish.com>
Cc: DavidJohnson@Siemens.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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Hello, Jamie Jones!

On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 12:35:01AM +0000, you wrote:

> > You can watch QT movies on FreeBSD using wine, it works just great. :)
> 
> I thought "mplayer" worked natively with QT files.. Is this not so ?

It doesn't play Sorenson-encoded videos, AFAIR.

-- 
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Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 17: 5:12 2002
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From: Johnson David <DavidJohnson@Siemens.com>
Subject: Re: TheRegister article on Hotmail
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On Friday 22 November 2002 04:31 pm, Alexandr Kovalenko wrote:

> > I second that sentiment. I have FreeBSD at work and at home. Monday I had
> > to boot into Win2K at work for ten minutes to schedule a meeting via
> > Outlook Calendar. The rest of the week has been FreeBSD (and Solaris)
> > only. Yesterday at home I booted into Windows to watch the LOTR:TT
> > trailer on Quicktime. The rest of the week has been on FreeBSD.
>
> You can watch QT movies on FreeBSD using wine, it works just great. :)

How?!?

Everytime I've tried to use it I get an error about a bad installation (or 
something to that effect). This occurs using the Windows install, and a 
native FreeBSD install using WINE. I assume this is due to the registry. Does 
the local WINE registry need certain permissions? Can I copy over the Windows 
registry? Yada, yada, yada. It's not that big of a deal to me, or I would 
have asked someone more knowledgable before now.

But this might be a good mini-article to write up for advocacy: how to run 
that fussy Windows programs under FreeBSD.

David

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 18:21:14 2002
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Greg writes:

> Agreed 100%.  I've had to use Microsoft from
> time to time, but for my purposes it's a toy
> compared to FreeBSD.  It would take me several
> times as long to get things done if I had to
> use Microsoft.

I'd hardly expect to hear anything different on a FreeBSD advocacy list.
There are lots of people at Microsoft who say _exactly_ the same thing about
UNIX as a server ("it would take me several times as long to get things done
if I had to use UNIX" or "UNIX is a toy compared to Windows 2000").

Part of rational advocacy is recognizing the strengths AND the weaknesses of
one's favored OS.  UNIX is a usually a poor choice for the desktop, and
Windows is often a poor choice for a server.  It's important for objective
parties to remain wary of anyone who claims that a single operating system
can do everything better than any other OS.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 18:36:38 2002
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On 2002-11-23 03:21, Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com> wrote:
> Greg writes:
> > Agreed 100%.  I've had to use Microsoft from
> > time to time, but for my purposes it's a toy
> > compared to FreeBSD.  It would take me several
> > times as long to get things done if I had to
> > use Microsoft.

The contortions through which you had to go to quote the above text
(and then manually rewrap it to such a short line width), are really
not necesary when you use better tools than Outlook Express for mail.

I'm writing this reply using Emacs, which wraps and refills the
paragraphs as I type, to the width that I have configured it to do.
I still don't know of a way that Outlook Express can be forced to
wrap text *and* display it correctly in line shorted than 70 columns.

This probably seem irrelevant at first, but if you read it in context
of what Greg has pointed out above, you'll notice that a point is
made.  Doing exactly the same thing (write a page of text with lines
shorter than 70 characters) is a ton of work in Outlook, and a pair of
keypresses away in a Unix tool.

> Part of rational advocacy is recognizing the strengths AND the
> weaknesses of one's favored OS.  UNIX is a usually a poor choice for
> the desktop, and Windows is often a poor choice for a server.

You are not following your own suggestion.  Why are you presenting
only the weaknesses (or at least, a rough outline of the weaknesses)
of these two environments and never mention any of their strengths?

> It's important for objective parties to remain wary of anyone who
> claims that a single operating system can do everything better than
> any other OS.

Then one that needs to compare Windows to UNIX would have to do a
comparison of a great number of operating systems.  "Windows" is a
family of operating systems, and UNIX is an even greater family.  Are
you suggesting that you know everything about all of them when you are
implying that Unix is not good as a desktopo and Windows is not good
as a server? :P


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 18:51:18 2002
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Giorgos writes:

> The contortions through which you had to go
> to quote the above text (and then manually
> rewrap it to such a short line width), are really
> not necesary when you use better tools than
> Outlook Express for mail.

I don't see how that it relevant to the discussion.

> This probably seem irrelevant at first ...

Yes, see above.

> ... but if you read it in context of what Greg
> has pointed out above, you'll notice that a
> point is made.

No point is made, except that you have a personal preference for some e-mail
program other than Outlook Express.  There are thousands of e-mail programs
available, so you have your choice.  I still don't see the connection to the
discussion at hand, however.

> Doing exactly the same thing (write a page of text
> with lines shorter than 70 characters) is a ton of
> work in Outlook, and a pair of keypresses away in
> a Unix tool.

E-mail is composed and sent with e-mail client programs, not operating
systems.

> You are not following your own suggestion.  Why
> are you presenting only the weaknesses (or at
> least, a rough outline of the weaknesses) of these
> two environments and never mention any of their
> strengths?

Perhaps you haven't read all of my posts.  I've consistently praised UNIX
where its strengths reside, namely, as a server.

> Then one that needs to compare Windows to UNIX
> would have to do a comparison of a great number
> of operating systems.

It would be a good idea, if practical.

> Are you suggesting that you know everything about
> all of them when you are implying that Unix is not
> good as a desktopo and Windows is not good
> as a server?

No, I'm _stating_ that I have no emotional investment in the use of any
operating system, and I simply use the best OS for the job.

On my three computers, I run Windows NT, Windows XP Home Edition, and
FreeBSD UNIX.  The XP machine is purely a destkop.  The NT machine is much
more a desktop than a server, although I have a few services running on it
as well.  The UNIX machine is exclusively a server.

My router appears to run a stripped version of UNIX--or something
UNIX-like--as well, but I'm not exactly sure what it is.



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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 19: 2:39 2002
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To: anthony@freebie.atkielski.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
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> I'd hardly expect to hear anything different on a FreeBSD advocacy list.
> There are lots of people at Microsoft who say _exactly_ the same thing about
> UNIX as a server ("it would take me several times as long to get things done
> if I had to use UNIX" or "UNIX is a toy compared to Windows 2000").

That doesn't necesarrily necesarily make the comments any less valid.
"people at microsoft" are paid to work there.
"people on freebsd-advocacy" are there because of their experience with
FreeBSD

> Part of rational advocacy is recognizing the strengths AND the weaknesses of
> one's favored OS.

Yes, of course. And, I didn't say that FreeBSD on the desktop is for everyone.
I know some people who I'd never recommend anything other than windows at
the moment (people who tweak with downloading some stuff but have no real
technical knowledge)

Also, people like my dad who know EVEN LESS I recommend FreeBSD - that I set
up - he gets his email, reads web sites, and doesn't keep accidently deleting
icons and screwing things up, requiring my help, like he did with win98 !

>                    UNIX is a usually a poor choice for the desktop, and
> Windows is often a poor choice for a server.  It's important for objective
> parties to remain wary of anyone who claims that a single operating system
> can do everything better than any other OS.

But in the post I responded to, you didn't use "usually" - and whilst I may
still debate "usually", it's not as cut and dry as when you wrote:

 | Conversely, though, converting from Windows to UNIX on the desktop is just
 | as absurd as doing the opposite on the server, and the fact that many people

Such an extreme statement is not "rational advocacy" in my opinion.

Cheers,
Jamie

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 19:22:26 2002
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/pokes head in for a second.

"What's going on?  Oh, FreeBSD-as-a-desktop debate with anti-Microsoft
generalizations?"

"Lemme know when we're back on the subject of promoting FreeBSD"

/goes back to sleep


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 19:39:45 2002
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Jamie writes:

> That doesn't necesarrily necesarily make the
> comments any less valid.

It doesn't make them more valid, either.  In fact, comments like that are
usually devoid of any real validity, and reflect only personal preferences.

> "people at microsoft" are paid to work there.
> "people on freebsd-advocacy" are there because
> of their experience with FreeBSD

Same thing.  Both groups have a bias, with rare exceptions.

> But in the post I responded to, you didn't
> use "usually" ...

Since absolute statements are the exception rather than the rule (and I
normally qualify them as such when making them, personally), "usually" can
be assumed.

> Such an extreme statement is not "rational
> advocacy" in my opinion.

It's not extreme at all.  What is extreme is tossing out or avoiding working
solutions in order to yield to an emotional attachment to some piece of
software.  I see it all the time, with people trying to do unreasonable
things with Windows, UNIX, or the Mac (or any number of other software
products).  It's surprising how attached people become to their favorite
software or even their favorite vendors; eventually they are willing to do
anything to get their preferred software to work, no matter how ill-suited
it might be to their purposes.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 19:52:25 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Giorgos writes:

> The "ease of use" part of working with a system
> is very relevant.

I don't see a problem with ease of use.

> There aren't really thousands, but I was trying
> to illustrate with an example what I consider
> "difficult about working with Windows".

You're entitled to express your opinion, but it may not be representative of
a general rule.

> Ah, but you will almost certainly agree that
> it's not the "operating system" that users are
> faced with, but its applications.

Yes.

> When those applications are not fit for the
> purpose they were written or are incomplete,
> flawed or buggy in the way they work, problems
> do arise.

Yes.

However, the choice of an operating system is often a function of the
_average_ functionality, reliability, security, etc., of the applications it
runs.  If most of the applications are buggy or weird, the OS may be
excluded from consideration; conversely, if the applications are smoothly
efficient and reliable, the OS may be given more consideration than it would
merit on its own features alone.

Additionally, the _number_ of choices for applications is a huge factor in
choosing an OS.  The more applications that are available (and the more
choices there are for a given type of application), the more the OS is
favored.

After you get past these considerations, the final consideration is usually
the technical merit of the OS itself.

Windows wins on all three counts for the desktop.  UNIX wins on all three
counts for servers.  I'm not sure that the Mac wins on any of these counts
for general use, which might explain why it is very much a niche operating
system.

> Not really.  I haven't seen any arguments posted
> to back this claim :-/

Therefore they must not exist?

> Sounds like tons of fun :)

I don't run these computers for fun.  I run them to get work done.  I
exhausted the novelty of playing with computers for their own sake many
years ago, and now I consider them tools, as 99.9% of the human race does.
I usually only deal with them for their own sake if I'm paid for it.

> Windows is not bad or evil or inadequate for
> fulfilling the purpose of a desktop machine.
> It just isn't fit for me, and the style of work
> that I have acquired after long years of being
> a UNIX user.

I already know that.  However, your experience is not representative of the
mainstream.  Most people using computers have never even heard of UNIX, so
they have no experience with it to color their preferences.

> All that, of course, if one puts aside the
> licensing and cost issues of Windows (which are
> irrelevant to the suitability of Windows for a
> desktop), are major factors in my deciding not
> to use them on my desktop machines.

Licensing and cost are not irrelevant in the big picture, although they are
external to technical considerations.  The cost of licensing Windows
operating systems, in fact, has been a significant factor in the choice of
UNIX (and FreeBSD) for many organizations.  If you can run a server with an
OS that is at least equivalent and usually superior to Windows, and you can
do it for free, that's a _very_ strong point in favor of that OS.

Even for individuals it may be a factor, if the budget is tight.  That's why
I run Windows XP Home Edition on one of my machines--it came with the
machine, and the upgrade to XP Pro is too expensive for my purposes, and
seems to add virtually nothing to my environment.  FreeBSD cost me $10 (for
the Wind River CD).

FreeBSD represents _by far_ the best value for the money.  It's unfortunate
that it cannot replace Windows on the desktop, as I'm not keen on being so
dependent on one vendor.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 20: 7:29 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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> Since absolute statements are the exception rather than the rule (and I
> normally qualify them as such when making them, personally), "usually" can
> be assumed.

Errrm Ok.

> It's not extreme at all.  What is extreme is tossing out or avoiding working
> solutions in order to yield to an emotional attachment to some piece of
> software.  I see it all the time, with people trying to do unreasonable
> things with Windows, UNIX, or the Mac (or any number of other software

As with most of your original post, I don't disagree with this statement.

But now it's gone 4.00am, this is turning into a religious war now, and anyway
you'll find that I'm not the zeolot you may perceive me as !

My point was simply that it's not "absurd" to use FreeBSD on the desktop.
It's certainly the best choice for me and a number of others, if not for
the populace, but that's another argument altogether..

That's really the only thing I wanted to pick up on.

Cheers, 
Jamie

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 20: 9:33 2002
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:09:25 +0200
From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
Message-ID: <20021123040925.GB4320@gothmog.gr>
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On 2002-11-23 04:52, Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com> wrote:
> Giorgos writes:
> > The "ease of use" part of working with a system
> > is very relevant.
>
> I don't see a problem with ease of use.

Anthony.

This is not related to FreeBSD advocacy anymore.  You (or the programs
you're using, I'm not personally attacking you here) also seem unable
to distinguish between personal replies and list replies.

What you quote above and in the rest of that post was part of a
personal reply I wrote to a personal reply from you to one of my posts
on the list.  Taking the discussion off-list and bringing back to the
lists parts of it is both confusing and unfair for the rest of the
people of the list.  Even more so, when the discussion isn't even
about a topic that the list might get somethinng beneficial out of.

I'm not going to take part in any of this.

Thanks for your comments so far.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 20:16:51 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:16:45 +0100
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Giorgos writes:

> Taking the discussion off-list and bringing
> back to the lists parts of it is both confusing
> and unfair for the rest of the people of the list.

So is having a list with no proper Reply-To header in messages, making it
impossible to reply to the list without changing the recipient name for each
and every reply by hand.  I don't understand the logic behind that.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 21: 0:55 2002
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To: FreeBSD Advocacy <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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> So is having a list with no proper Reply-To header in messages, making it
> impossible to reply to the list without changing the recipient name for each
> and every reply by hand.  I don't understand the logic behind that.

 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 22:16:16 2002
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:12:07 -0800
From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
References: <20021121161453.GA69019_submonkey.net@ns.sol.net> <008501c2917a$ac643080$0a00000a_atkielski.com@ns.sol.net> <200211221502.gAMF2a6a089963@catflap.bishopston.net> <20021122234047.GB60785@wantadilla.lemis.com> <014201c29296$f9cc4a20$0a00000a@atkielski.com>
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Greg writes:
> > Agreed 100%.  I've had to use Microsoft from
> > time to time, but for my purposes it's a toy
> > compared to FreeBSD.  It would take me several
> > times as long to get things done if I had to
> > use Microsoft.
> 
> I'd hardly expect to hear anything different on a FreeBSD advocacy list.
> There are lots of people at Microsoft who say _exactly_ the same thing about
> UNIX as a server ("it would take me several times as long to get things done
> if I had to use UNIX" or "UNIX is a toy compared to Windows 2000").

Yeah, but Microsoft signs their paycheck, so they're hardly
unbiased sources.

No one on this list is being paid by "FreeBSD, Inc.".


-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 22:28:43 2002
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0211222059390.22755-100000@pilchuck.reedmedia.net>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Jeremy writes:

> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2720.3000

Nope, it's not that.

The relevant headers look like this on messages resent to FreeBSD
distribution lists:

---

Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119])
 by freebie.atkielski.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id gAN51x984132
 for <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>; Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:02:01 +0100 (CET)
 (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG)

[...]

From: "Jeremy C. Reed" <reed@reedmedia.net>

[...]

Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG

---

Under RFC 2822 (3.6.2), which obsoletes RFC 822, replies are sent as
follows:

"The originator fields also provide the information required when replying
to a message.  When the 'Reply-To:' field is present, it indicates the
mailbox(es) to which the author of the message suggests that replies be
sent.  In the absence of the 'Reply-To:' field, replies SHOULD by default be
sent to the mailbox(es) specified in the 'From:' field unless otherwise
specified by the person composing the reply.

In the case of FreeBSD list messages, the "From:" field points to the person
who posted to the list, not to the list itself.  Replying to the person who
posted, then, is correct behavior for the mail agent.

The headers should contain a "Reply-To:" header pointing to the list.
Majordomo is capable of doing this, so somebody has turned it off for the
FreeBSD lists, for reasons unknown.



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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 22:29:51 2002
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Terry writes:

> Yeah, but Microsoft signs their paycheck, so
> they're hardly unbiased sources.

The strongest sources of bias have nothing to do with paychecks.  Most
adherents of the world's major religions, for example, receive no pay in
exchange for their adherence to those religions, but their beliefs and bias
remain very strong, just the same.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 22:32:24 2002
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Terry writes:

> Both of which take you away from the configuration
> of the system as it is shipped from the vendor.

Just changing the name of the server does that.

> If you have to do a heck of a lot of work, that
> kind of makes it a dubious benefit to have the
> OS preinstalled on the hardware, which is the main
> argument in favor of Windows.

Server operating systems are not usually preinstalled; and security is
usually easy to obtain for client operating systems, since it is normally
sufficient to block most types of incoming traffic.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 22:37:25 2002
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> Yeah, but Microsoft signs their paycheck, so they're hardly
> unbiased sources.
>
> No one on this list is being paid by "FreeBSD, Inc.".

Geez, Terry, you mean to say they don't have you on the payroll yet?  I got
a huge bonus last month.

You need to talk to HR about those missing paychecks before they move your
desk to the basement and take your red Swingline stapler.



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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 22:45: 3 2002
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Jamie writes:
> > "people at microsoft" are paid to work there.
> > "people on freebsd-advocacy" are there because
> > of their experience with FreeBSD
> 
> Same thing.  Both groups have a bias, with rare exceptions.

The first is biased because of avarice; the second, because of
altruism.  That's not "the same thing" at all.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 22:58:57 2002
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Terry writes:

> The first is biased because of avarice; the
> second, because of altruism.

So you agree that they are both biased.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 23:15:48 2002
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Giorgos writes:
> > Taking the discussion off-list and bringing
> > back to the lists parts of it is both confusing
> > and unfair for the rest of the people of the list.
> 
> So is having a list with no proper Reply-To header in messages, making it
> impossible to reply to the list without changing the recipient name for each
> and every reply by hand.  I don't understand the logic behind that.

Then you should read section 3.5 of RFC-2076 and section 3.6.2
of RFC-2822, so you can be enlightened.  See also all of the
Draft RFC draft-meyer-reqbehaviors-manager, which mandates
that end-to-end fields not be modified, and specifically prohibits
their insertion by mailing list server software.

Frankly, your headers indicate that your MUA is Outlook Express
version 6.00.2720.3000.  In that MUA, there is an icon bar in
the message viewing window, ans the second and third buttons from
the left are "Reply" and "Reply All", respectively.  In addition,
if you were in the message crowsing window, which displays the
"Subject:" lines and other information about messages, you can
use the right mouse button to get a menu, where the third menu
item is "Reply to Sender" , and the fourth is "Reply to All".
Finally, the fifth entry in the program menu bar is "Message",
and the thirs and fourth items are identical to those in the
right-button menu previously discussed.

Actually, you had to go a fair distance out of your way to send
a private message to a mailing list, since you had to manually
add an address.  The manual addressing of a message that you are
claiming, being unnecessary (despite your claim to the contrary)
because of the seperation of reply options.

-- Terry

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 23:16:29 2002
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[reformatted to a standard line length]

On Saturday, 23 November 2002 at  3:21:04 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Greg writes:
>
>> Agreed 100%.  I've had to use Microsoft from time to time, but for
>> my purposes it's a toy compared to FreeBSD.  It would take me
>> several times as long to get things done if I had to use Microsoft.
>
> I'd hardly expect to hear anything different on a FreeBSD advocacy
> list.

You don't read your own messages?

> There are lots of people at Microsoft who say _exactly_ the same
> thing about UNIX as a server ("it would take me several times as
> long to get things done if I had to use UNIX" or "UNIX is a toy
> compared to Windows 2000").

We were talking about desktops.

> Part of rational advocacy is recognizing the strengths AND the
> weaknesses of one's favored OS.

Or others.  But yes, agreed.

> UNIX is a usually a poor choice for the desktop, and Windows is
> often a poor choice for a server.  It's important for objective
> parties to remain wary of anyone who claims that a single operating
> system can do everything better than any other OS.

I think you've either misunderstood or misrepresented me.

Since I've (rather unwisely) come back into this discussion, I'd like
to make a few points:

1.  I am most definitely not a fanatic user of FreeBSD.  I've used
    many operating systems in my time, including Microsoft.

2.  You seem to have overlooked the "for my purposes" in the message
    you replied to.

3.  There's a tradeoff between "ease of learning" and "ease of use".
    It's quite possible that Microsoft is easier for beginners, though
    I'm getting the feeling lately that it has become much more
    complicated.  When I was forced to use Microsoft, I was
    continually calling the help desk, because I couldn't understand
    how to do things.

    The reason for this is that "intuitive" is very subjective.  If
    you've used Microsoft all the time, you'll get the idea of the
    look and feel.  If, like me, you've never used "Windows" in anger,
    you'll find it completely bizarre.

    OK, so you can say "yes, but it's easy when you know it".  You can
    say that about FreeBSD as well.  I don't believe it's true with
    Microsoft.  The reasons have less to do with Microsoft itself than
    with the user interface; that's why I think things like OpenOffice
    are the wrong thing to do.

A couple of examples (as I say, for my purposes):

1.  I get about 1500 mail messages a day.  They're usually in threads,
    like this one.  It's possible that Outlook can arrange things
    hierarchically, but I haven't been able to find out how to do it.
    mutt does this out of the box.  I can delete whole threads with a
    single keystroke.  I won't even get started on the contortions you
    need to get Outlook not to break correct text.

2.  I suppose it's possible to use Microsoft without the mouse, but
    I'd guess it's not easy.  Every mouse click takes as long at 20
    keystrokes, so using the mouse is inefficient where a keystroke
    can do the same thing.  In addition, the screen on which I'm
    writing this has a resolution of 2048x1536.  The window into which
    I'm typing right now has a size of 110x110 characters, which
    enables me to see the entire message on a single screen.  Just
    positioning the mouse on the correct place is quite difficult.

    That's not to say that mice are bad; I use one all the time, but
    for things where mice are better.  Microsoft overdoes it.

3.  I recently watched somebody prepare some slides for a presentation
    with OpenOffice.  He had to make a large number of tradeoffs in
    order to get what he wanted.  There seems to be no way to automate
    things.  By contrast, I make my slides with groff, and I have a
    complete programming language behind it to help me do exactly what
    I want.

    I suppose I make some tradeoffs too, since I don't have all these
    silly themes (or whatever they're called) which things like
    PowerPoint offer.  But that's OK by me.  Too often, Microsoft
    comes across like a child's toy: brightly coloured and weak on
    functionality.

IMO the real reason why Microsoft is still used so much is because
computer users are (still) mainly newbies.  When it becomes important
for them to be able to use computers effectively, more and more of
them will move on to something more powerful.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Fri Nov 22 23:24:48 2002
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Jeremiah Gowdy wrote:
> > Yeah, but Microsoft signs their paycheck, so they're hardly
> > unbiased sources.
> >
> > No one on this list is being paid by "FreeBSD, Inc.".
> 
> Geez, Terry, you mean to say they don't have you on the payroll yet?  I got
> a huge bonus last month.
> 
> You need to talk to HR about those missing paychecks before they move your
> desk to the basement and take your red Swingline stapler.

Not a problem, since they fired Bill... plus there's a new
printer... ;^).

-- Terry

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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > The first is biased because of avarice; the
> > second, because of altruism.
> 
> So you agree that they are both biased.

No, I disagree that they are the same thing.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  0: 4: 7 2002
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Terry writes:

> Then you should read section 3.5 of RFC-2076
> and section 3.6.2 of RFC-2822, so you can be
> enlightened.

RFC-2076 is documentation, not prescriptive; in any case, section 3.5 does
not conflict with my observations.

I've already cited section 3.6.2 of RFC-2822, which is the standard upon
which I based my observations.

> See also all of the Draft RFC draft-meyer=
> reqbehaviors-manager, which mandates that
> end-to-end fields not be modified ...

That draft no longer exists, and did not become a RFC.

> Frankly, your headers indicate that your MUA
> is Outlook Express version 6.00.2720.3000.  In
> that MUA, there is an icon bar in the message
> viewing window, ans the second and third buttons
> from the left are "Reply" and "Reply All",
> respectively.

But there is no button for "reply to a mailing list that isn't identified
anywhere in the headers."

> ... where the third menu item is "Reply to
> Sender" , and the fourth is "Reply to All".

The sender is the list owner, not the list itself.  A reply to all still
requires that I delete the sender; it saves no effort as compared with
simply typing the list name over the sender's name.  (Many posters here are
lazy and leave the original sender's address in the To: field, but I don't
like to receive two copies of everything, and I presume others don't like
that, either.)

> Actually, you had to go a fair distance out
> of your way to send a private message to a
> mailing list, since you had to manually
> add an address.

No, I simply performed my usual operation of typing the mailing list address
in the To: field.  I have to do that for every reply to these lists.  It
required no additional effort beyond what I usually expend to reply to the
list.

However, I didn't deliberately send a private message to the list.  I'm just
so used to replacing that field for every single reply to the list that I do
it automatically.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  0:12:51 2002
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Greg writes:

> You don't read your own messages?

I'm an exception to the rule.

> We were talking about desktops.

We were also talking about bias.

> I think you've either misunderstood or
> misrepresented me.

I don't recall addressing you specifically at all.

> It's quite possible that Microsoft is easier
> for beginners, though I'm getting the feeling
> lately that it has become much more complicated.

Actually, Windows XP is vastly simpler to use for most users, as compared
with its predecessors.  It's one of the most frequent comments I hear about
the OS.

> In addition, the screen on which I'm writing
> this has a resolution of 2048x1536.

What type of monitor is it, and how large is it, and what aspect ratio does
the monitor have?

> Just positioning the mouse on the correct
> place is quite difficult.

A graphics tablet can solve this problem in many cases.

In any case, the problems you describe are common to all GUIs.  And
Microsoft software generally does have keyboard equivalents for everything,
although they aren't very well documented.

> By contrast, I make my slides with groff, and
> I have a complete programming language behind
> it to help me do exactly what I want.

By contrast, I make my slides with Quark XPress, and I've never seen any
need for any programming language when preparing documents.

> Too often, Microsoft comes across like a child's
> toy: brightly coloured and weak on functionality.

That's what the market wants.

> IMO the real reason why Microsoft is still used
> so much is becausecomputer users are (still) mainly
> newbies.  When it becomes important for them to be
> able to use computers effectively, more and more of
> them will move on to something more powerful.

No.  The real reason why Microsoft is still used (or at least one of the
reasons) is that most people couldn't care less about computers; they just
want to get their work done.  They do not share your interest in computers
for the sake of computers, and thus do not want anything "more powerful,"
and do not care about using computers "more effectively."  They have lives
outside of computerland, and so they only use the computer long enough to
finish some straightforward task, and then they go on to other things.

Since this is not likely to change, neither is the dominance of software
such as that produced by Microsoft likely to change, at least on the
desktop.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  0:14: 5 2002
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Terry writes:

> No, I disagree that they are the same thing.

You agree that they were both biased.  The "thing" in my original post was
the condition of being biased.  And yet you disagree that they are the same
thing (= being biased).  Hmm.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  0:24:17 2002
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Alexandr Kovalenko [Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 02:44:25AM +0200]:
> Hello, Jamie Jones!
> 
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 12:35:01AM +0000, you wrote:
> 
> > > You can watch QT movies on FreeBSD using wine, it works just great. :)
> > 
> > I thought "mplayer" worked natively with QT files.. Is this not so ?
> 
> It doesn't play Sorenson-encoded videos, AFAIR.

Update your information then :)  From the mplayer.hq.hu:

How To Enable QuickTime Codecs In MPlayer - 2002.11.19. 

A'rpi whipped up a small text which describes how to use closed-source
QuickTime codecs (Sorenson, QDesign Audio, etc) in MPlayer. The process is a
bit difficult, but currently the only solution. Be patient, we are working
on a better implementation.

It is important to emphasize the fact that although this method includes
usage of the windows emulator Wine, this is NOT just like using the
QuickTime Player. Wine is only used for the decoder, thus from MPlayer's
viewpoint it looks just like any other codec: you can use xmga, aalib,
vidix, whatever to display the movie. And, you can even encode it with for
example DivX, with MEncoder.

The instructions can be found in DOCS/tech/qt-libwine-howto.txt. Good luck!

---

I never tested it, BTW.

-- 
Micha³ Pasternak - http://pasternak.w.lub.pl - +48606570000
www.anti-dmca.org, www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
"Ufamy ¶wiatu, jak p±ki kwiatów, gdy jesieñ jeszcze trwa..."

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  0:27:17 2002
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To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
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[artificially shortened lines *again* fixed]

On Saturday, 23 November 2002 at  9:12:45 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Greg writes:

>> I think you've either misunderstood or misrepresented me.
>
> I don't recall addressing you specifically at all.

Go back and check your message, since you've removed the relevant part
from this reply.

>> Just positioning the mouse on the correct place is quite difficult.
>
> A graphics tablet can solve this problem in many cases.

Possibly.  But that's only one of the reasons, and you ignored the
other. 

> In any case, the problems you describe are common to all GUIs.

Agreed.  As I went on to say, that's an objection.

>> By contrast, I make my slides with groff, and I have a complete
>> programming language behind it to help me do exactly what I want.
>
> By contrast, I make my slides with Quark XPress, and I've never seen
> any need for any programming language when preparing documents.

Well stated.  Most Microsoft users "don't see a need" to do things
better.  That's amply demonstrated in email which is so badly laid out
that you'd think people would be ashamed of it.

>> Too often, Microsoft comes across like a child's toy: brightly
>> coloured and weak on functionality.
>
> That's what the market wants.

The market doesn't know what it wants.

>> IMO the real reason why Microsoft is still used so much is
>> becausecomputer users are (still) mainly newbies.  When it becomes
>> important for them to be able to use computers effectively, more
>> and more of them will move on to something more powerful.
>
> No.  The real reason why Microsoft is still used (or at least one of
> the reasons) is that most people couldn't care less about computers;
> they just want to get their work done.

You're not listening, are you?

> They do not share your interest in computers for the sake of
> computers, and thus do not want anything "more powerful," and do not
> care about using computers "more effectively."

That's what getting your work done is all about.  If I had to use
Microsoft Outlook, I wouldn't even get through my mail: it would take
me more than a working day to get through it.

> They have lives outside of computerland, and so they only use the
> computer long enough to finish some straightforward task, and then
> they go on to other things.

I'm not sure what relevance this statement has.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
References: <20021121161453.GA69019_submonkey.net@ns.sol.net> <008501c2917a$ac643080$0a00000a_atkielski.com@ns.sol.net> <200211221502.gAMF2a6a089963@catflap.bishopston.net> <20021122234047.GB60785@wantadilla.lemis.com> <014201c29296$f9cc4a20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123071534.GC39240@wantadilla.lemis.com> <01e101c292c8$1aa8cda0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123082710.GD39240@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:40:43 +0100
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Greg writes:

> Most Microsoft users "don't see a need" to do
> things better.

Perhaps, although Quark XPress is written by Quark, not Microsoft, and it is
the standard of the industry.

> That's amply demonstrated in email which is so
> badly laid out that you'd think people would be
> ashamed of it.

Most people don't care.  They are interested only in the content of e-mail,
not in its formatting or in the conformance of its headers to any arbitrary
standard.  Only geeks care about the latter things, and geeks are an
increasingly small minority of computer users.

> The market doesn't know what it wants.

More precisely, the market refuses to want what you think is best for it.

> You're not listening, are you?

I am listening, even though I've heard it all before.

Most people dramatically overestimate the objective importance of things
that interest them.  Computer geeks thus dramatically overestimate the
importance of just about any aspect of computers.  People who are not
computer geeks, however, do not care, and will consistently opt for whatever
requires the smallest amount of thought on their part ... since they prefer
to think about other things instead.

> That's what getting your work done is all about.

No, you can get work done with just about anything.  It doesn't have to be
ideal.  And in fact, the time, effort, and money required to implement and
use someone's notion of an "ideal" solution to getting work done is simply
not justified for people who have other interests in life.  Anything will do
for them.

> If I had to use Microsoft Outlook, I wouldn't even
> get through my mail: it would take me more than a
> working day to get through it.

But lots of people use Microsoft Outlook or Microsoft Outlook Express and
are entirely happy with it.  They do not have your emotional investment in
e-mail products.

> I'm not sure what relevance this statement has.

I'm trying to make clear that you have an extremely skewed perspective on
the importance of many aspects of computer science in the real world--the
world outside the geek community.

Just as you lament ordinary computer users not using your idea of the
perfect system, there are dentists lamenting the fact that you do not
carefully brush and floss after every meal, and there are cardiologists
lamenting the fact that you do not precisely weigh the quantities of
saturated and unsaturated fats in every meal you consume.  There are car
mechanics who lament your failure to rotate your tires and change your oil
according to a precise and optimal schedule.  There are environmentalists
who lament your failure to shut off your computer whenever you step away
from your desk, and your failure to install optimal, maximally efficient
insulation in your home to save energy.  There are clergymen who lament your
failure to pray for at least one hour daily in order to ensure your
salvation in the afterlife.  And so on.

Do you see the point?  What is important to you is not necessarily important
to others.  Microsoft and many other companies in many domains understand
this, and design and market their products accordingly.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  1:19:24 2002
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To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > Frankly, your headers indicate that your MUA
> > is Outlook Express version 6.00.2720.3000.  In
> > that MUA, there is an icon bar in the message
> > viewing window, ans the second and third buttons
> > from the left are "Reply" and "Reply All",
> > respectively.
> 
> But there is no button for "reply to a mailing list that isn't identified
> anywhere in the headers."

Of course not.  It's a breach of ettiquite to do that.  Only
a jerk forwards a private email, or part of a private email,
to a mailing list.  That's what people were complining about
you doing.


> > ... where the third menu item is "Reply to
> > Sender" , and the fourth is "Reply to All".
> 
> The sender is the list owner, not the list itself.

You're wrong.  That's not how Outlook interprets "Reply to Sender";
it interprets it as "Reply to the address(es) in the `Reply-To:'
header, if there is one, otherwise reply to the address in the
`From:' header".

If you need me to post the relevent portion of the Outlook Express
version 6 Help file for you because you are unable to click on the
"Help" button yourself, I can oblige you.


> A reply to all still requires that I delete the sender;

Why?  So that if the sender is not a subscriber to the list,
they don't se your response to their message?  That's a foolish
thing odo, unless it's your goal in life to see your email on
mailing lists, rather than engaging in rational discourse.

> it saves no effort as compared with simply typing the list name
> over the sender's name.  (Many posters here are lazy and leave
> the original sender's address in the To: field, but I don't
> like to receive two copies of everything, and I presume others
> don't like that, either.)

It is the job of the receiving system to perform duplicate
suppression. If it's a site-wide option, this should be done on
your mailing list server (or your ISP).  If it's not (it usually
is not, for a myriad of very good reasons), then it's the job of
your mail client and your mail client's filters to deal with it.

Personally, I like it: it lets me differentiate important messages
(messages which are addressed to me directly in the "To:" or "Cc:")
from relatively unimportant messages (messages addressed to a list
to which I am subscribed).  If it weren't for duplication, I
would not be able to prioritze the mail I receive properly.


> > Actually, you had to go a fair distance out
> > of your way to send a private message to a
> > mailing list, since you had to manually
> > add an address.
> 
> No, I simply performed my usual operation of typing the mailing list address
> in the To: field.  I have to do that for every reply to these lists.  It
> required no additional effort beyond what I usually expend to reply to the
> list.

Why do you have to do that?  THe "To:" or "Cc:" field contains
the list name.

If you want that behaviour ("send only to list mail received from
a mailing list"), then you should set "Sender:" as your highest
or second-highest priority header for "Reply to Sender".  I guess
you need to spring for the full version of Outlook to do that: cost
of using a feature-poor mail client.


> However, I didn't deliberately send a private message to the list.  I'm just
> so used to replacing that field for every single reply to the list that I do
> it automatically.

You should probably point that out to the person whose private
email you sent to the list, in case they are not a list subscriber
and didn't see this message, and appologize.  8-|.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  1:29: 3 2002
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > Too often, Microsoft comes across like a child's
> > toy: brightly coloured and weak on functionality.
> 
> That's what the market wants.

Given that Microsoft is a monopoly, how can you tell the
difference between "what the market wants" and "what the
market is forced to use by virtue of an illegal leveraging
of monopoly powers"?

Just  because the primary focus of the Antitrust decision that
recognized the Microsoft monopoly was their leveraging of
their OS to force competing broswer vendors out of business
doesn't mean that they haven't used that same leverage against
vendors of other applications.  Most Windows boxes come with
Outlook Express [leveraging the monopoly to extinguish competing
mail clients, such as ZMail] and Microsoft Word [leveraging the
monopoly to extinguish competing word processors, such as Word
Perfect] and Microsoft Peer-to-peer Networking [leveraging the
monopoly to extinguish competing peer-to-peer networking, such
as LANtastic] and Microsoft Client networking [leveraging the
monopoly to extinguish competing client/server networking, such
as Novell NetWare].

In all these cases, Microsoft has driven competitors out of
business with "free" software, whise actual costs were borne
by the 80% profit margin on Windows, which they could charge
that much for, due to their OS monopoly.

IMO, ZMail kicks Outlook's butt, but you are never going to
see it any more, despite it's higher quality, not because it's
not what the market wants, but because Outlook Express is
illegally bundeled in the Windows pricing, instead of priced
seperately.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  1:30:16 2002
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > No, I disagree that they are the same thing.
> 
> You agree that they were both biased.  The "thing" in my original post was
> the condition of being biased.  And yet you disagree that they are the same
> thing (= being biased).  Hmm.

Except "being biased" was not the part I was disagreeing with;
I can quote you the context you removed from two messages back,
if necesary.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  1:33:50 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > If I had to use Microsoft Outlook, I wouldn't even
> > get through my mail: it would take me more than a
> > working day to get through it.
> 
> But lots of people use Microsoft Outlook or Microsoft Outlook Express and
> are entirely happy with it.  They do not have your emotional investment in
> e-mail products.

Post their email addreses to BugTraq.  They will quickly find
themselves lss than entirely happy.

-- Terry

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Terry writes:

> You're wrong.  That's not how Outlook interprets
> "Reply to Sender" ...

I wasn't talking about Outlook; I was talking about the meanings of the
headers in the message.

> ... it interprets it as "Reply to the address(es)
> in the `Reply-To:' header, if there is one, otherwise
> reply to the address in the `From:' header".

That's exactly what it should do.

> If you need me to post the relevent portion of
> the Outlook Express version 6 Help file for you
> because you are unable to click on the
> "Help" button yourself, I can oblige you.

I don't use the help files, but thanks, anyway.

> Why?

Because the sender is one of the "all" to which the "Reply all" is sent.

> So that if the sender is not a subscriber to
> the list, they don't se your response to their
> message?

If they were not subscribers to the list, they would not have seen the
message to which they are replying, and to which I am responding in turn.

> It is the job of the receiving system to
> perform duplicate suppression.

I guess my FreeBSD UNIX receiving system doesn't do its job, then.

> If it's not (it usually is not, for a myriad of
> very good reasons), then it's the job of your
> mail client and your mail client's filters to
> deal with it.

If I am separately addressed and addressed as part of a mailing list, I
_expect_ to receive two copies of the message.  The problem is with the
sender specifying both me and the mailing list as recipients; I imagine many
senders are using "Reply all" or its equivalent.

> Why do you have to do that?  THe "To:" or "Cc:"
> field contains the list name.

No, it contains the address of the sender of the post to which I'm replying.
The headers do not specify a "Reply-To:" address, and the "From:" field is
filled with the address of the person who posted the message.  Thus, when I
reply, the To: field is filled with the address of the poster, not the
address of the list.  The error is not in the mail client, it is in the
mailing list software.

> I guess you need to spring for the full version
> of Outlook to do that: cost of using a feature-poor
> mail client.

I'm not aware of any "full version" of Outlook.

In any case, I should not wish to change the priority of headers in
determining how the reply address is obtained.  The current behavior
conforms to the RFCs, and that's fine with me.

> You should probably point that out to the person
> whose private email you sent to the list, in case
> they are not a list subscriber and didn't see this
> message, and appologize.

This is a discussion forum, not an exchange of love letters.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  2:14:35 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Terry writes:

> Given that Microsoft is a monopoly, how can
> you tell the difference between "what the
> market wants" and "what the market is forced
> to use by virtue of an illegal leveraging
> of monopoly powers"?

I'm not interested in rabid bashing of Microsoft or any other vendor or
product.  Sorry.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  2:15:47 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Terry writes:

> Post their email addreses to BugTraq.  They
> will quickly find themselves lss than entirely
> happy.

They control the distribution of their e-mail addresses, not I.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  2:52:57 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > Why?
> 
> Because the sender is one of the "all" to which the "Reply all" is sent.

Duplicate supression is a function of the receiver.

> > So that if the sender is not a subscriber to
> > the list, they don't se your response to their
> > message?
> 
> If they were not subscribers to the list, they would not have seen the
> message to which they are replying, and to which I am responding in turn.

Not true.  A frequent use of mailing lists is to:

1)	Have a problem.
2)	Search list archives for a solution to the problem.
3)	If a solution is found in the archives, STOP.
4)	If there is no solution in the archives, but there
	are other people with the probem, contact them directly,
	and see how they solved it (if they did).
5)	If the other people found a solution, and they share it
	with you, STOP (Note: subsequent people will repeat this
	process, until the people with the solution post it to
	the list to avoid being pestered).
6)	Post a request for a fix to a mailing list *without
	necessarily subscribing to the list*
7)	Receive an answer to the question, which is sent both to
	them directly, and o the list, for the purposes of being
	archived for future people with the problem.

Note that in step 7, the respondant sends to the list and to the
original sender, both, without the orignl sender being on the list.

In the case of cross-posting, etc., it's possible to have a set
of lists [A,B,C], and a set of users ith list membership a[A,B],
b[A,C], c[B,C], all involved in the discussion, due to an
initial cross-post.


> > It is the job of the receiving system to
> > perform duplicate suppression.
> 
> I guess my FreeBSD UNIX receiving system doesn't do its job, then.

I guess you haven't configured it correctly, then.  If you are using
POP3 against a FreeBSD mail server, then configure it to use procmail,
and maintain a rolling archive of "Message-Id:" field contents, and
suppress duplicate deliveries, on a per-user basis:

	# weed out duplicates
	:0 Whc: msgid.lock
	| formail -D 8192 $PMDIR/msgid.cache
	:0 a:
	$DELETE

See also:

	Procmail Mini-Tutorial by Tony Nugent
	http://www.sektorn.mooo.com/era/procmail/tony.html

It's generally accepted that this is actually the job of the MUA
(in this case, OutLook Express is failing to provide this feature
for you, for whatever reason; most likely, it's an overabundance
of the property "suck").  The reason for this is that suppression
of duplicates prevents you from greating MUA filter rules that do
proper archiving of messages and/or delivery into list archive
and standard mailboxes, as a result of their method of arriving
at the recipient (e.g. keying of the existance of a "Sender:"
or a "List-ID:" or "List-Unsubscribe:" or other header).


> > If it's not (it usually is not, for a myriad of
> > very good reasons), then it's the job of your
> > mail client and your mail client's filters to
> > deal with it.
> 
> If I am separately addressed and addressed as part of a mailing list, I
> _expect_ to receive two copies of the message.  The problem is with the
> sender specifying both me and the mailing list as recipients; I imagine many
> senders are using "Reply all" or its equivalent.

Your problem.  Not the sender's problem.

You could argue that it's also a mailing list manager issue,
since the mailing list manager could note that the "To:" or
"Cc:" line contained an address which mtched that of a known
list member for the message, and suppress delivery.  However,
this has two problems:

1)	The same problem with non-archival delivery that should
	be handled on behalf of the user by the MUA; at a bare
	minimum, this would have to be a subscriber controllable
	option, since most sae people *do not want the behaviour
	you want*.

2)	Doing this is computationally expensive, and the general
	rule in client/server software design is to push all the
	processing you possible can off onto the client, since
	clients outnumber servers by a wide margin, and the
	left-over 200MHz Pentium 2 box you are given to build a
	mail server with has far less balls than the 3GHz boxes
	sitting on the desks of the VP of sales, the VP of
	marketing, or the CEO's, CTO's, or even the technical
	writer's desk -- or even the 600MHz boxes they stick you
	with in engineering, because you don't "rate" a faster
	box, and since when is compiling the company's product
	as important as minimizing the browser containing porn,
	when someone walks into the sales manager's office?

If you are going to this much trouble to hack the crap out of your
list manager software, you'd be *much* better off addressing things
like the ability to send email to a list *minus* specific people,
and oher features that are requested a lot more than duplicate
suppression at the server instead of at the client.


> > Why do you have to do that?  THe "To:" or "Cc:"
> > field contains the list name.
> 
> No, it contains the address of the sender of the post to which I'm replying.
> The headers do not specify a "Reply-To:" address, and the "From:" field is
> filled with the address of the person who posted the message.  Thus, when I
> reply, the To: field is filled with the address of the poster, not the
> address of the list.  The error is not in the mail client, it is in the
> mailing list software.

The error is in the use of temil client, who used "Reply to
Sender" button, rather than t non-existant (because it's useless)
"Reply to List" button, or the "Reply to All" button that they
should have used, instead. 


> > I guess you need to spring for the full version
> > of Outlook to do that: cost of using a feature-poor
> > mail client.
> 
> I'm not aware of any "full version" of Outlook.

"Outlook", as oppoed to "Outlook Express".


> In any case, I should not wish to change the priority of headers in
> determining how the reply address is obtained.  The current behavior
> conforms to the RFCs, and that's fine with me.

Then lump it, because so does the mailing list management
software, and that's fine with everybody else.  8-).


> > You should probably point that out to the person
> > whose private email you sent to the list, in case
> > they are not a list subscriber and didn't see this
> > message, and appologize.
> 
> This is a discussion forum, not an exchange of love letters.

In other words, you are an unrepentant poster-of-private-email,
rather than an accidental poster-of-prviate-email.

Therefore the rest of us should consider that you will not
honor a confidence, before sending you private email.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  2:53:38 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
References: <20021121161453.GA69019_submonkey.net@ns.sol.net> <008501c2917a$ac643080$0a00000a_atkielski.com@ns.sol.net> <200211221502.gAMF2a6a089963@catflap.bishopston.net> <20021122234047.GB60785@wantadilla.lemis.com> <014201c29296$f9cc4a20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123071534.GC39240@wantadilla.lemis.com> <01e101c292c8$1aa8cda0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DDF47C6.88FE04BF@mindspring.com> <021c01c292d9$1dd01590$0a00000a@atkielski.com>
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > Given that Microsoft is a monopoly, how can
> > you tell the difference between "what the
> > market wants" and "what the market is forced
> > to use by virtue of an illegal leveraging
> > of monopoly powers"?
> 
> I'm not interested in rabid bashing of Microsoft or any other vendor or
> product.  Sorry.

Except UNIX in general, and FreeBSD in particular, it seems.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  2:55:50 2002
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > Post their email addreses to BugTraq.  They
> > will quickly find themselves lss than entirely
> > happy.
> 
> They control the distribution of their e-mail addresses, not I.

Do they have signature lines that contain their email addresses?

Given your track record of unrepentantly posting private email to
mailing lists, it's sufficient for you to post one of their
private emails to the mailing list over there, with commentary,
just as you posted the private email to this list, with
commentary, earlier, right?

The effect will be the same as merely posting their email
addresses.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  3:27:39 2002
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References: <20021121161453.GA69019_submonkey.net@ns.sol.net>   <017101c2929b$18ef7e50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123033041.GA3884@gothmog.gr> <019901c292a3$b9c31690$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123040925.GB4320@gothmog.gr> <01a201c292a7$23338d50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DDF2A12.31DABCF5@mindspring.com> <01dc01c292c6$e31cca90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> ?æ¿¿ìë¿¿ü¿¿á      eI	(øf	(   "P	(
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   t (   	   
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:27:31 +0100
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Terry writes:

> Duplicate supression is a function of the receiver.

Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you require.  Didn't
Jon Postel say that once?

> I guess you haven't configured it correctly, then.

I guess I have better things to do than to configure it to conform to some
other person's notion of what is "correct."

> "Outlook", as oppoed to "Outlook Express".

Two different products, despite the names.

> Then lump it ...

I do.

> In other words, you are an unrepentant poster=
> of-private-email, rather than an accidental
> poster-of-prviate-email.

No, I just don't have very high testosterone levels, so a desire to compete
and conquer is lacking in my case, as is the tendency to endlessly bicker
that such a desire often engenders.

> Therefore the rest of us should consider that
> you will not honor a confidence, before sending
> you private email.

The rest of you should assume that I do not want any private e-mail
concerning this public discussion.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  3:28:59 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Terry writes:

> Except UNIX in general, and FreeBSD in particular,
> it seems.

No, not even those.  An unwillingness to mindlessly endorse FreeBSD or UNIX
for every conceivable use under the sun is not synonymous with bashing; in
fact, it isn't even close.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  3:30: 9 2002
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From: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Terry writes:

> Do they have signature lines that contain
> their email addresses?

I don't remember.  I don't usually read signature lines.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  3:41:11 2002
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > Duplicate supression is a function of the receiver.
> 
> Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you require.  Didn't
> Jon Postel say that once?

Yes.  Applies equally well to MUAs.


> > I guess you haven't configured it correctly, then.
> 
> I guess I have better things to do than to configure it to conform to some
> other person's notion of what is "correct."

Hey, you're the one complaining about the duplicates.  If you don't
want to run a proper MUA, and you want to correct it in your mail
server, follow the instructions in the pervious post.  Otherwise,
quit your complaining, because no one is going to change all the
MUA's, mail servers, and mailing list software in the world to be
different than it is, just to make you not need to type in list
addresses on intentional posts, to avoid "accidently" posting
private email to mailing lists.


> > "Outlook", as opposed to "Outlook Express".
> 
> Two different products, despite the names.

You're still not running the full version of "Outlook".

> > Then lump it ...
> 
> I do.

And take responsibility when your defective coping mechanism results
in private emails bein posted to a public mailing list, in whole or
in part.


> > In other words, you are an unrepentant poster=
> > of-private-email, rather than an accidental
> > poster-of-prviate-email.
> 
> No, I just don't have very high testosterone levels, so a desire to compete
> and conquer is lacking in my case, as is the tendency to endlessly bicker
> that such a desire often engenders.

No one asked you to "compete and conquer", only to appologize
for something you claimed as a mistake, which hardly anyone
actually believes was a mistake, but would be willing to treat
it as such, as a polite fiction, were you to acknowledge that
your error was in fact an error.


> > Therefore the rest of us should consider that
> > you will not honor a confidence, before sending
> > you private email.
> 
> The rest of you should assume that I do not want any private e-mail
> concerning this public discussion.

You should set your "Reply-To:"...

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  3:54:36 2002
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > Except UNIX in general, and FreeBSD in particular,
> > it seems.
> 
> No, not even those.  An unwillingness to mindlessly endorse FreeBSD or UNIX
> for every conceivable use under the sun is not synonymous with bashing; in
> fact, it isn't even close.

Earlier you stated, in a post to the list, in response to a
post by Greg Lehey (though you made this difficult to discern,
by altering mail headers unnecesarily):

	Part of rational advocacy is recognizing the strengths
	AND the weaknesses of one's favored OS.

What you neglected to state was:

	And then playing up the strengths, while playing down
	and/or providing workarounds for the weaknesses.

You seem intolerant of the idea of "an advocate", as in "someone
who advocates", as opposed to "somone who only advocates under
specific conditions which Anthony decides upon".

I don't understan the idea of a "conditional advocate"; it seems
to me that this would be similar to someone who cheers for their
favorite baseball team, except when they are playing teams from
the West Coast, becuse they are supposed to realize that they
should "bend over and take it like a man" when their team plays
a West Coast team.

Advocacy doesn't work like that: it's "all or nothing".  A Cubs
fan is a Cubs fan, and comes out and yels for their team, even if
they *know* that their team is going to get creamed.

I think what you are describing isn't "advocacy", it's "consulting".

Maybe you would have better luck selling this idea, if you were
posting on the "freebsd-consulting" mailing list?

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  5: 8:34 2002
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	Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>,
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References: <20021121161453.GA69019_submonkey.net@ns.sol.net> <008501c2917a$ac643080$0a00000a_atkielski.com@ns.sol.net> <200211221502.gAMF2a6a089963@catflap.bishopston.net> <20021122234047.GB60785@wantadilla.lemis.com> <014201c29296$f9cc4a20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123071534.GC39240@wantadilla.lemis.com> <01e101c292c8$1aa8cda0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123082710.GD39240@wantadilla.lemis.com> <020501c292cc$03275c10$0a00000a@atkielski.com>
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On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 09:40:43AM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:

> > That's amply demonstrated in email which is so
> > badly laid out that you'd think people would be
> > ashamed of it.
> 
> Most people don't care.  They are interested only in the content of e-mail,
> not in its formatting or in the conformance of its headers to any arbitrary
> standard.  Only geeks care about the latter things, and geeks are an
> increasingly small minority of computer users.

Everybody here cares (except you).

By not formatting your email with respect to it's targeted audience, you
are displaying rudeness, in much the same way as posting private email to
the list is (especially when you refuse to apologize, even after being told
that it's not the done thing).

Ceri
-- 
Reckoning awaits!

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  5:59:58 2002
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From: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
References: <20021121161453.GA69019_submonkey.net@ns.sol.net>   <20021123040925.GB4320@gothmog.gr> <01a201c292a7$23338d50$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DDF2A12.31DABCF5@mindspring.com> <01dc01c292c6$e31cca90$0a00000a@atkielski.com> ?æ¿¿ìë¿¿ü¿¿á      eI	(øf	(   "P	(
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:59:53 +0100
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Terry writes:

> Hey, you're the one complaining about the duplicates.

I wasn't complaining about them, I was simply explaining how I handle them.
I _was_ complaining about a mailing list that doesn't provide a proper reply
address to respond to the list, however.

> You're still not running the full version
> of "Outlook".

I know.  I have an SMTP server, not an Exchange server, so the "full"
version of Outlook would be a waste of time.

> And take responsibility when your defective coping
> mechanism results in private emails bein posted to
> a public mailing list, in whole or in part.

Accidents happen.

> You should set your "Reply-To:"...

I can't, at least not for individual e-mails.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  6: 7:12 2002
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From: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:07:07 +0100
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Terry writes:

> Earlier you stated, in a post to the list,
> in response to a post by Greg Lehey [...]:
>
> > Part of rational advocacy is recognizing
> > the strengths AND the weaknesses of one's
> > favored OS.

Yes.  I don't see any bashing there.

> What you neglected to state was:
>
> And then playing up the strengths, while
> playing down and/or providing workarounds
> for the weaknesses.

It is not neglect to avoid stating what I do not believe.

I prefer to present an objective picture insofar as possible.  While
emphasizing strengths when the situation warrants it seems harmless enough,
I will not "play down" weaknesses, nor will I suggest workarounds for
fundamental defects in a product.  I have no sacred mission to cause anyone
to adopt or avoid any particular software product, and so I will not attempt
to deceive anyone in my descriptions.

> You seem intolerant of the idea of "an advocate" ...

I have no problem with advocates.  Proselytizers are a different story.  And
prostitutes are more extreme still.

> Advocacy doesn't work like that: it's "all or
> nothing".

You may be confusing advocacy with religion.

> I think what you are describing isn't "advocacy",
> it's "consulting".

It's advocacy.  What you are describing is irrationality, i.e., religious
fervor.

> Maybe you would have better luck selling this
> idea, if you were posting on the "freebsd-consulting"
> mailing list?

What leads you to believe that my luck has been poor up to now?


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23  6: 8:37 2002
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From: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Ceri writes:

> Everybody here cares (except you).

But everybody here is part of a small minority of geeks; we are not
representative of typical computer users.

> By not formatting your email with respect to
> it's targeted audience, you are displaying
> rudeness, in much the same way as posting
> private email to the list is (especially when
> you refuse to apologize, even after being told
> that it's not the done thing).

Worrying about the details of e-mail formatting is precisely the type of
geek behavior to which I've alluded.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 10:29:22 2002
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From: Arjan van Leeuwen <avleeuwen@piwebs.com>
To: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>,
	"FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Although I am tempted to reply to Anthony's many emails, I won't, because=
 the=20
other messages have already made clear to me that Anthony doesn't seem to=
 be=20
really open towards new solutions or arguments.

As this discussion doesn't look like advocacy to me _at all_, I suggest=20
Anthony and everyone else who'd like to reply to him move this discussion=
 to=20
the freebsd-chat mailing list. Thank you.

On Saturday 23 November 2002 15:08, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Ceri writes:
> > Everybody here cares (except you).
>
> But everybody here is part of a small minority of geeks; we are not
> representative of typical computer users.
>
> > By not formatting your email with respect to
> > it's targeted audience, you are displaying
> > rudeness, in much the same way as posting
> > private email to the list is (especially when
> > you refuse to apologize, even after being told
> > that it's not the done thing).
>
> Worrying about the details of e-mail formatting is precisely the type o=
f
> geek behavior to which I've alluded.
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 12:24:58 2002
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To: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
Cc: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail) 
In-Reply-To: Message from "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com> 
   of "Sat, 23 Nov 2002 03:21:04 +0100." <014201c29296$f9cc4a20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> 
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:29:24 +0100
From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
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> From: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
> one's favored OS.  UNIX is a usually a poor choice for the desktop, and

Expanded Reality ;-)
  UNIX is a poor choice for the intellectually lazy, or incompetent;
  Usually than 50% of PC users are intellectually lazy, or incompetent;
  So UNIX is a poor choice for these people's desktop.
  
Microsoft get paid heavily to support their choice market sector:
the mostly intellectually lazy, ignorant, or hopelessly incompetent.

Many MS users would be an unpaid liability for BSD.  Dumb fumble &
click lazy losers are best left to their MS rip off prices, bootlegs,
viruses & crashes.  Those prepared to exercise their brain learning
are worth recruiting to BSD though, if they realise that though BSD
requires no purchase price, it does require time to read docs & think.

6500 ported FreeBSD packages inc. many window managers gives a wide
choice of desktops, but never would I try to recruit all classes
of MS-users to BSD.

Julian Stacey
jhs @ berklix.com	Computer Systems Engineer & Unix Consultant, Munich.
   Ihr Rauchen = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz !  Schnupftabak probieren.

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 13:26:55 2002
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Julian writes:

> Expanded Reality ;-)
>   UNIX is a poor choice for the intellectually
>   lazy, or incompetent; Usually than 50% of PC
>   users are intellectually lazy, or incompetent;
>   So UNIX is a poor choice for these people's desktop.

The last statement is true.  The previous two are not.

UNIX is a poor choice for people who are not interested in computers _per
se_, but instead only in computers as tools.  UNIX requires too much
technical knowledge to exploit usefully on the desktop.  The ideal desktop
for the non-specialist in IT is a desktop that requires minimal knowledge to
use successfully in the accomplishment of whatever tasks the user has in
mind.  This tends to favor the Mac much more than Windows, except that the
Mac has other compensating disadvantages that prevent it from reaching a
position of dominance in the market.  The next in line is Windows; and in
fact, Windows is the leading desktop OS by far.  The various flavors of UNIX
are far, far behind.

> Microsoft get paid heavily to support their
> choice market sector: the mostly intellectually
> lazy, ignorant, or hopelessly incompetent.

Your disdain for people who happen not to share your interests or obsessions
is an excellent illustration of precisely the attitude that impedes the
advocacy of operating systems such as UNIX.  Microsoft knows better than to
call its customers lazy, incompetent, or stupid--but you, apparently, have
not yet learned this essential fact.  One reason FreeBSD and many other
operating systems remain only marginally present in many environments is
that their primary supporters are socially naïve and gratuitously aggressive
young males.

> Many MS users would be an unpaid liability for BSD.

Worry not ... no mass migration from Microsoft operating systems to FreeBSD
is likely in the foreseeable future; and even if all other obstacles were
overcome to such a migration, the attitudes of people like yourself would
still prevent it.

> Dumb fumble & click lazy losers are best left
> to their MS rip off prices, bootlegs, viruses
> & crashes.

See above.

> Those prepared to exercise their brain learning
> are worth recruiting to BSD though ...

Many people with brains are not interested in BSD, however; and those who
might be are likely to be put off by the puerile behavior of many of the
operating system's advocates.  Clubs of thirteen-year-old boys tend to be
attractive only to thirteen-year-old boys.

> ... if they realise that though BSD requires no
> purchase price, it does require time to read docs
> & think.

If they are given the impression that they will be surrounded by rabid
teenagers prone to violent and ill-considered religious tirades should they
undertake to use BSD, however, they may well abandon the project before it
has begun.

> 6500 ported FreeBSD packages inc. many window
> managers gives a wide choice of desktops ...

People don't want a wide choice of desktops.  They just want a machine that
does the job, and then they're done.

> ... but never would I try to recruit all classes
> of MS-users to BSD.

If any of them are reading this thread, I'm sure you've scared them off
pretty effectively--more so than I can realistically counter with my own
meager dose of unemotional rationality, I'm afraid.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 13:35:12 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Freddie writes:

> Actually, they aren't.

Actually, they are.  Two entirely different codebases, last time I looked at
the code.  The similarity is in name alone.

> OE is nothing more than the mail engine for
> Outlook, and Outlook is nothing more than a
> PIM wrapper around OE.  They are one and the
> same, just with different feature sets.

Unless both products have been rewritten from scratch in the past 36 months,
this is completely untrue.

OE evolved from a crude Internet e-mail function integrated into Internet
Explorer.  Outlook was a separately developed product originally associated
with Office, IIRC, and then adapted to work with Exchange Server in place of
the original Exchange client.  I believe there was still a third version of
Outlook shipped with Windows 95 (the details are fuzzy now).  OE handles
only Internet e-mail.  Outlook handles any kind of e-mail, as long as an
appropriate provider is installed, e.g., Internet e-mail (POP3 or IMAP),
Exchange Server's proprietary e-mail interface, the old Microsoft Mail
interface, and so on (I believe there are providers for Lotus Notes and
other systems as well, although obviously Microsoft does not sell those).

I consider Outlook overkill if one uses only Internet mail.  I use Outlook
Express exclusively.  However, if one is using Microsoft Exchange Server,
Outlook is a very nice client for that product.  OE can go against MXS if
the latter is configured to serve SMTP and POP3 clients.  Outlook can go
against SMTP and POP3 (and IMAP or HTTP) servers if the proper providers are
configured.

I wouldn't mind having a text-only client for UNIX, if one exists that does
not require memorization of a hundred arcane keyboard sequences just for
basic use.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 14: 8:47 2002
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John writes:

> Look, dude, why don't you go and start
> microsoft-windowsxp-advocacy somewhere else.

I'm curious:  How do you hope to win new converts to FreeBSD if you cannot
tolerate anyone who isn't already converted?

> Leave the rest of us UNIX/BSD users alone.

How will you increase your numbers if you are unwilling to discuss your
favorite operating system with heathen users of other operating systems?

> We enjoy UNIX desktops.

Obviously.

> How hard is that for you to comprehend?

Not hard at all.  But the list is dedicated to advocacy, not the status quo,
and telling people to go away every time they fail to embrace FreeBSD
unconditionally and completely isn't going to encourage the spread of the
OS.

> Actually, I invite you to try Mac OS X.

Windows already does everything that I require, and nowadays I don't play
with computers for their own sakes unless I'm paid for it.

> Wonderful desktop, BSD underneath, beats the
> snot out of WindowsXP as far as ease of use.

So what do you run for your desktop?


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 14:33:20 2002
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > You should set your "Reply-To:"...
> 
> I can't, at least not for individual e-mails.

I guess you should use ZMail instead of Outlook.  If you can't
do that, Netscape also supports setting a "Reply-To:".

For example, this message sets it to you.

--Terry

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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Terry writes:

> I guess you should use ZMail instead of Outlook.

I don't use Outlook, I use Outlook Express.

Anyway, it would not make much sense to change e-mail clients just for one
feature used on only one list in one circumstance.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 14:46:15 2002
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To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > I think what you are describing isn't "advocacy",
> > it's "consulting".
> 
> It's advocacy.  What you are describing is irrationality, i.e., religious
> fervor.

	The Macintosh Way
	Guy Kawasaki
	ISBN 0-06-097338-2

I'm guessing since he has more money than you, and money is how
we keep score in Western society, that he's right, and you're
wrong.


> > Maybe you would have better luck selling this
> > idea, if you were posting on the "freebsd-consulting"
> > mailing list?
> 
> What leads you to believe that my luck has been poor up to now?

People's universally negative reaction to you?  No one has
posted in support of your position.  No one.

It's very obvious that you are a paid Microsoft advocate, and
that Summer vacation is over, so here you are, back on the list
again.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 15:10:31 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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[Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html]

On Saturday, 23 November 2002 at 12:30:06 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
>
>> Do they have signature lines that contain their email addresses?
>
> I don't remember.  I don't usually read signature lines.

Too far down the page?

Greg
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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 15:26:28 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
[ ... BSD about Outlook and Outlook Express ... ]

Actually, both were written by a contracting company in Tucson,
Arizona.

My former manager at a company I worked in between 1994 and 1997
works for that company, which no longer does the developement for
Microsoft (i.e. he is not to blame for Outlook).

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 15:30:30 2002
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> John writes:
> > Look, dude, why don't you go and start
> > microsoft-windowsxp-advocacy somewhere else.
> 
> I'm curious:  How do you hope to win new converts to FreeBSD if you cannot
> tolerate anyone who isn't already converted?

If you kill everyone who is not a FreeBSD user, all you have
left is FreeBSD users.  Then you win.  8-) 8-).


> Not hard at all.  But the list is dedicated to advocacy, not the status quo,

It's dedicated to advocacy of FreeBSD.  Feel free to advocate
FreeBSD.  If you feel the need to advocate Windows, go elsewhere.


> > Actually, I invite you to try Mac OS X.
> 
> Windows already does everything that I require, and nowadays I don't play
> with computers for their own sakes unless I'm paid for it.

So basically, you are being paid to hang out here.  I wonder by
whom... not.

-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 16:57:57 2002
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From: "Freddie Cash" <fcash@ocis.net>
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To: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:55:11 -0800
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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On 23 Nov 2002 at 22:35, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Freddie writes:
> > Actually, they aren't.
 
> Actually, they are.  Two entirely different codebases, last time I looked at
> the code.  The similarity is in name alone.
 
> > OE is nothing more than the mail engine for
> > Outlook, and Outlook is nothing more than a
> > PIM wrapper around OE.  They are one and the
> > same, just with different feature sets.
 
> Unless both products have been rewritten from scratch in the past 36 months,
> this is completely untrue.

As of Outlook 2000, you cannot install it without first installing OE 
5.  And if you uninstall OE 5, then Outlook 2000 will not run.  I 
haven't tried Outlook XP.  I went through this whole rigamarole two 
weeks ago as I set up my helpdesk station.  I hate OE with a passion, 
and Outlook only slightly less, but have to run Outlook for the 
helpdesk.

I installed Office 97 with Outlook.  OE 5 was installed along with it.  
I uninstalled OE 5.  Outlook gave some weird errors that I ignored.  I 
tried to install Office 2000 with Outlook.  The installer installed OE 
5 again.  I uninstalled OE.  Outlook wouldn't start.  Upgraded to IE 6 
with OE 6.  Tried to uninstall OE 6 and the installer popped up saying 
that OE cannot be installed as Outlook 2000 depends on it.

Try this on your system.  I've fought with OE/Outlook and have come to 
the conclusion that OE is the mail engine in Outlook.  There's no other 
explanation for it that I can think of.
 
Cheers,
Freddie
fcash@bigfoot.com

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 17: 9:13 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Terry writes:

> I'm guessing since he has more money than you,
> and money is how we keep score in Western society,
> that he's right, and you're wrong.

I try to draw conclusions based on something more tangible than guessing.

> People's universally negative reaction to you?

What leads you to believe that people universally react negatively to me?

> No one has posted in support of your position.
> No one.

I post in support of my own position.  I don't need cheerleaders, and I know
better to believe that a widely held opinion is necessarily a correct
opinion (or vice versa).

More significantly, you haven't posted anything in support of your _own_
position.  All of your posts up to now have been essentially just personal
attacks on me; but you don't provide any actual support for your own
position, which I find intriguing.

> It's very obvious that you are a paid Microsoft
> advocate, and that Summer vacation is over, so here
> you are, back on the list again.

I don't understand.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 17: 9:40 2002
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Greg writes:

> Too far down the page?

No, simply irrelevant to the content of the message.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 17:10:39 2002
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Terry writes:

> Actually, both were written by a contracting
> company in Tucson, Arizona.

Name the company.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 17:12: 6 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 02:12:02 +0100
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

Terry writes:

> It's dedicated to advocacy of FreeBSD.  Feel
> free to advocate FreeBSD.  If you feel the
> need to advocate Windows, go elsewhere.

It is increasingly obvious to me why Windows is doing so well.

> So basically, you are being paid to hang out
> here.  I wonder by whom... not.

Please elaborate.


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 17:18:54 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

Freddie writes:

> As of Outlook 2000, you cannot install it
> without first installing OE 5.

I'll take your word for it, as I have not worked with Outlook 2000.

> I installed Office 97 with Outlook.  OE 5
> was installed along with it.

OE 5 didn't exist when Office 97 was released, as I recall.

> Try this on your system.

Why?  I have Office 97 installed already.  I use OE 6 for e-mail.  Outlook
is installed but I no longer use it.

> I've fought with OE/Outlook and have come to
> the conclusion that OE is the mail engine in
> Outlook.

As I've said, unless the code has been _completely rewritten_, that is not
the case.  They are two different products.




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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 17:48:36 2002
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:48:24 -0800
From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
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To: Anders Nordby <anders@FreeBSD.org>
Cc: Paul Saab <ps@freebsd.org>, developers@FreeBSD.org,
	advocacy@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Advocacy: HotJobs moving to FreeBSD
References: <20021124004518.GA8042@totem.fix.no> <20021124005014.GA41304@elvis.mu.org> <20021124010245.GA8345@totem.fix.no>
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Anders Nordby wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2002 at 04:50:14PM -0800, Paul Saab wrote:
> > Umm.. Hotjobs is owned by Yahoo! now.. Sorta makes sense... ;)
> 
> For us, yes. For other people, well? The more we can get the word out,
> the better, right? Also, since HotJobs is a large site (?), we have lots
> to win by telling the world IMO.

It's on daily.daemonnews.org.  If you have contacts in the "real" press,
and can get them to do a case study of this, that would be great.  I'm
a little confused that this message was sent to developers@ rather than
advocacy@, where you're at least likely to find some people who WANT to
help in some way.

Replies have been directed there.

-- 
            "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

Wes Peters                                                         Softweyr LLC
wes@softweyr.com                                           http://softweyr.com/

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 18:53:34 2002
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To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Non compliance with list remit.
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From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

I have informed postmaster@ that IMO, one person's postings
these last 2 days have distracted us from our objective:

   From: Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG
   >>>> info freebsd-advocacy
   FREEBSD-ADVOCACY                        Furthering the Use of FreeBSD
   Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and
   individuals using FreeBSD

If others also tell postmaster similar, it may help.

Julian Stacey
jhs @ berklix.com	Computer Systems Engineer & Unix Consultant, Munich.
   Ihr Rauchen = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz !  Schnupftabak probieren.

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 18:56:20 2002
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

Doesn't your FreeBSD system include a delete key?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 03:58
Subject: Non compliance with list remit.


> I have informed postmaster@ that IMO, one person's postings
> these last 2 days have distracted us from our objective:
> 
>    From: Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG
>    >>>> info freebsd-advocacy
>    FREEBSD-ADVOCACY                        Furthering the Use of FreeBSD
>    Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and
>    individuals using FreeBSD
> 
> If others also tell postmaster similar, it may help.
> 
> Julian Stacey
> jhs @ berklix.com Computer Systems Engineer & Unix Consultant, Munich.
>    Ihr Rauchen = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz !  Schnupftabak probieren.
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
> 


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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 20: 3: 4 2002
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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

You are entitled to your opinions, and I'm sure you're not the only FreeBSD
user who thinks FreeBSD makes a fantastic server, but prefers Windows on the
desktop.  I actually feel that way myself.  But at this point, you are
simply trolling the list and detracting from the advocacy campaign.  I would
like to politely request that you keep future messages on these threads or
any derived threads off the main list, and merely CC them to the parties you
think are interested in the topic.  Either that, or use -chat.


> Doesn't your FreeBSD system include a delete key?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julian H. Stacey" <jhs@berklix.com>
> To: "FreeBSD Advocacy" <freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG>
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 03:58
> Subject: Non compliance with list remit.
>
>
> > I have informed postmaster@ that IMO, one person's postings
> > these last 2 days have distracted us from our objective:
> >
> >    From: Majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG
> >    >>>> info freebsd-advocacy
> >    FREEBSD-ADVOCACY                        Furthering the Use of FreeBSD
> >    Share ideas and plan to increase the number of companies and
> >    individuals using FreeBSD
> >
> > If others also tell postmaster similar, it may help.
> >
> > Julian Stacey
> > jhs @ berklix.com Computer Systems Engineer & Unix Consultant, Munich.
> >    Ihr Rauchen = mein allergischer Kopfschmerz !  Schnupftabak
probieren.
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
> >
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
>


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X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG

Insufficient SNR.  Please take this discussion off-list, or to a
more appropriate place such as comp.os.linux.advocacy.

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 22:18: 5 2002
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
References: <20021121161453.GA69019_submonkey.net@ns.sol.net>   <20021122234047.GB60785@wantadilla.lemis.com> <014201c29296$f9cc4a20$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <20021123071534.GC39240@wantadilla.lemis.com> <01e101c292c8$1aa8cda0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DDF47C6.88FE04BF@mindspring.com> <021c01c292d9$1dd01590$0a00000a@atkielski.com> <3DDF5ADF.21BC5B31@mindspring.com> <024801c292e3$824f45e0$0a00000a@atkielski.com> À| <3DDF68AF.E5F94C90@mindspring.com> <026201c292f9$9b84aa30$0a00000a@atkielski.com>       eI	(øf	(   "P	(
    æ¿¿CSß;pæ¿¿Àå¿¿ ±(                                                           Èð   `ç¿¿   ³ð   0À	                                   øå¿¿            æ¿¿Ìæ¿¿¾(tæ¿¿¿ð8ç¿¿u(¨® (àÑ (Dç¿¿á (Ò (   à  aÒ(ç¿¿           àÑ (=   üæ¿¿6Ò(¨® (àÑ (Ò ( (ìë¿¿ÜQç¿¿¹?(ç¿¿           àÑ (=   ¿ð??(ìë¿¿lQìë¿¿        (ç¿¿
   t (   	   
         /g
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	 ing.com> <030601c29356$15c57d90$0a00000a@atkielski.com>
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > People's universally negative reaction to you?
> 
> What leads you to believe that people universally react negatively to me?


The meager evidence of my eyes and ears.


> More significantly, you haven't posted anything in support of your _own_
> position.  All of your posts up to now have been essentially just personal
> attacks on me; but you don't provide any actual support for your own
> position, which I find intriguing.

Hardly.  I don't engage in adhominim attacks.  A person who
engagers in discussion like this needs to be able to seperate
an attack on their ideas from an attack on their person.


-- Terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 22:18:46 2002
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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To: Anthony Atkielski <anthony@freebie.atkielski.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > Actually, both were written by a contracting
> > company in Tucson, Arizona.
> 
> Name the company.

IKON Office Systems.

-- terry

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 22:31:41 2002
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From: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: FreeBSD on the desktop (was: TheRegister article on Hotmail)
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Terry writes:
> > It's dedicated to advocacy of FreeBSD.  Feel
> > free to advocate FreeBSD.  If you feel the
> > need to advocate Windows, go elsewhere.
> 
> It is increasingly obvious to me why Windows is doing so well.

Blind, unreasoning support of it by morons who have bought
into the idea that "What's good for Microsoft, is good for
America"?


> > So basically, you are being paid to hang out
> > here.  I wonder by whom... not.
> 
> Please elaborate.

You are a paid troll.  You are paid to put opinions which are
dictated to you by your employers in the FreeBSD-Advocacy lists
and list archives, such that if someone wants to go find out
if FreeBSD will be a good desktop system, instead of getting
honest opinions by people using FreeBSD as a desktop system,
they see your crap about how "FreeBSD is just a server OS, and
doesn't work well as a desktop" -- which is a blatant lie on
your part.

Further, you go out of your way to remove message headers;
specifically, you re-address each message, so that there is no
"In-Reply-To:" header, so it's impossible to find the arguments
preceeding yours, lending them an apparent higher score than
they would be able to achieve on your own in context.

It is this, not an hinest mistake, which resulted in your posting
of private email to the mailing list: because you start with a
new message body for your reponse, rather than using a reply
option, and then cut-and paste the message you are replying to
into the message body.

The tools you use to do this are also the reason that you tend
to truncate quoted message bodies line lengths, reformatting
messages into near-unreadability.  It is my opinion that this
is probably an intended effect of the tools, so that the messages
you post have two portions: the portion to which you are replying,
which is formatted into near-unreadability, and the portion that
you yourself wrote, which is not formatted this way, thus increasing
the probability that anoyone reading such a message will skip your
opponents arguments, and read only the crap you have written.

Other rhetorical techniques are also used to substantiate your
position, particularly when you are faced with someone who is
catching you out for the shill you are, such as dangling short
questions, quoting material out of context, answering questions
not asked, etc., etc..

You are a moron, if you believe that the people on this list do
not see through your little charade at "advocacy"(*).

Luckily, there are people who will refuse to allow them to be
archived as stand-alone statements; when people go searhing the
mailing list archives for threads, they will find followups,
like this one, which shows your post for what it is.

-- Terry

(*) Conditionalized -- therefore not ad hominim; if you chose to
    trigger the condition, you're the one calling yourself names

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From owner-freebsd-advocacy  Sat Nov 23 22:36:37 2002
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Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> > I've fought with OE/Outlook and have come to
> > the conclusion that OE is the mail engine in
> > Outlook.
> 
> As I've said, unless the code has been _completely rewritten_, that is not
> the case.  They are two different products.

Both Outlook Express and the full edition share a number of
bugs.

One would expect them to have different bugs, if they were
truly different (which they are not: they share code).

-- Terry

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