From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 18 18:30: 2 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F2D37B401; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11EBB43F85; Tue, 18 Feb 2003 18:29:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 20F4951A36; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:59:40 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:59:40 +1030 From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey To: developers@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo! Message-ID: <20030219022940.GC17256@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 9A1B 8202 BCCE B846 F92F 09AC 22E6 F290 507A 4223 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline I've just received the following spam from Yahoo!, not for the first time. I've complained in the past, and have had no response. So: I'm blocking them. They're no longer the good guys in my eyes. If you are using Yahoo!, you will not be able to send mail to me. You will be able to contact me if you put a yahoo.com address in the Reply-To: header. Greg ----- Forwarded message from Yahoo!Careers and Seek ----- > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: grog@FreeBSD.org > Received: from mailer33.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (mailer33.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.69.24]) > by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F57151A2B > for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:01:28 +1030 (CST) > Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:31:30 PST > Message-ID: > From: Yahoo!Careers and Seek > X-Yahoo-MMID: vGRECArOjdrGmbU14hJPBht3FSjurfno03M- grog@FreeBSD.org > X-Yahoo-MMO: bg2 > X-Yahoo-Bounces: 1 > To: grog@FreeBSD.org > Subject: Win a Cruise with Yahoo! Careers > Errors-To: yahoo_delivers_208569@reply.yahoo.com > Reply-To: au-delivers@yahoo-inc.com > Mime-Version: 1.0 > X-RocketSRV: allow=all > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="==_MIME-Boundary-1_==" > X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=5.0 > tests=MAILTO_LINK,RAZOR2_CHECK,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,SPAM_REDIRECTOR, > SUPERLONG_LINE,WEB_BUGS > version=2.41 > X-Spam-Level: * > Status: RO > Content-Length: 9771 > Lines: 146 > > Take a holiday, while we get to work! > > Register for Job Mail and you could be sailing free while we find you the perfect job. > > Find out More! http://dm.yahoo.com/dm/s/208/208569_4939_4.html > *************************************************************************** > > Yahoo! Careers and SEEK Communications Ltd. > =========================================================================== > Need a new job? > Relax. We'll take the effort out of your job search. Simply regiseter for Job Mail and opportunities will flow straight to your inbox as they become available. Which means you won't miss your perfect job no matter where you happen to cruise away to. > > Win Blissful Days and 7 nights on a cruise for 2. > Register with Job Mail for your chance to win a 7 night crusise for 2 on Pacific Sky's Blissful Days Cruise. See Noumea and the Isle of Pines. Departs ex Sydney 1 August 2003. For details see Terms and Conditions. http://dm.yahoo.com/dm/s/208/208569_4939_1.html > =========================================================================== > > Register NOW! http://dm.yahoo.com/dm/s/208/208569_4939_3.html > > > ************************************************************* > > Yahoo! tries to send you the most relevant offers based on > your Yahoo! Account Information, interests, and what you use > on Yahoo!. Yahoo! uses web beacons in HTML-based email, > including in Yahoo! Delivers messages;To learn more about > Yahoo!'s use of personal information please read our Privacy > Policy: > http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/au/index.html. > If you have previously unsubscribed from Yahoo! Delivers, > but have received this mailing, please note that it takes > approximately five business days to process your request. > For further assistance with unsubscribing, you may contact a > Yahoo! Delivers representative by email by clicking here: > au-delivers@yahoo-inc.com. > > > ************************************************************* ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE+UuwUIubykFB6QiMRAuXBAJ0eOj0gDUDOl7NeNU6yCRfGmoU3LgCgmQ/d RecSNiws7JxuJ7gU/0cWHl4= =LKTB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/Uq4LBwYP4y1W6pO-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 5:19:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166B237B401 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:19:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from murdoch.servitor.co.uk (murdoch.servitor.co.uk [217.151.99.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A455E43F3F for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 05:19:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from mmu-firewall.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.101.200] helo=miter96pq2w1fz) by murdoch.servitor.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.33 #3) id 18lU8C-0006ru-00; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:19:24 +0000 From: "Paul Robinson" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:19:04 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3E5376A5.9EB8FC3@mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, I've moved this over to -chat where it belongs more than -hackers, trimmed the CCs, and turned this into a bit of a rant. For those just tuning in, Terry thought it would be a good idea to write a full-on GIS map rendering system so you could find your local user groups in a cool way. That's besides the point. Apologies for length of mail, but be thankful this is now only 35% of the size it was going to be before I trimmed it - I had a fun lunchtime! :-) Terry Lambert wrote: > Sure, if you'll let me point out again that the original poster > wanted the maps to be clickable. 8-) 8-). GIS != Imagemaps. :-) > FWIW: the important gateing factors on any Open Source project are: > > 1) Motivation (a problem to solve, that people can agree on) You don't get paid for OSS work, so you'll work on what you feel like, and only when you feel like it. This is completely reasonable. At the moment I'm working with somebody on a proposal for taking over the competition at the5k.org and the one thing we're trying to avoid is filling it with bureaucracy simply because to do so would bring it to a grinding halt. We deal with that rubbish all day long - we don't need to do it all night long too. :-) > 2) Working code (something that comes close to solving the > problem, or from which people can see a solution) This is critical, and is the reason why we're now seeing more "mainstream" applications like OpenOffice appear on open operating systems. If you don't have a decent framework that is easy to work with, it's perceived to be too risky to try and build something on top that is relatively complicated. Also, companies are starting to realise that giving away code is not the end of the world. > 3) Community (communications and peers to provide a context in > which the work can take place) Or in the case of some mailing lists around here, people scream at each other... > A lot of people have #1, so they declare a Source Forge project, try > to cookie-cutter #3 (impossible to do), and leverage having #1 and #3 > into someone creating #2 (also impossible to do). Indeed. Sourceforge is littered with the debris-like manifestations of good intentions. > As a matter of fact, I claim that, given any #2, I can *find* #1, > and *create* #3. What you're saying is that projects are easy to bootstrap if there is already a decent chunk of code in existence. In other words, it's easy. This does not take into account the fact that at some point, somebody, somewhere, has to have the vision to come up with something genuinely new, recognise it's difficult, and go ahead with it's implementation anyway. Some examples: - A decent Visio-like program for X. The current bunch that try to emulate it don't cut the mustard - Something like Macromedia Stuido MX - Quanta just doesn't get there at all. - Here's a radical idea: a compiler that is command-line compatible with gcc but is available under a BSD license. Then, all the GNU stuff to be re-implemented under a BSD license. OK, this is a politcal point, but there is value there. These things will get done one day, when somebody is either paid to do it, or has the guts, conviction, time and motivation to do them. > That sounds like most modern commercial software, to me, since it's > got legacy design factors from the 1980's/1990's causing it to need > documentation, support, and training materials as part of the (no > longer relevent) copy protection systems that grew up around the > software developement process. And of course, FreeBSD has no legacy factors in at all! :-) That might be unfair, as pretty much everything that is important has either undergone an evaluation and change, is going through it now, or is penned in for it soon. The real problem with projects as complicated as say FreeBSD or Mozilla is that there are occasions when too many cooks turn up. Complicated things are those things most cooks don't understand, simple things they do, therefore we get "bikeshed syndrome". How many analogies can I mix up? :-) > Seriously, it took a *lot* of skill to come up with the first Word > Processor that needed documentation for people to be able to use it > ("PC Write"). The author, Bob Wallace, said at one convention where he > spoke, "Software...", gestured expressively above and to the sides of > his head, "...is all up here. I sell manuals.". Yeah, I can see that. Makes sense in the context of a 1980's software market. It's not the case any more though. Last night I read a book by an ex-Microsoft employee named Andrew Barr entitled "Proudly Serving my Corporate Masters". It's a bit tongue in cheek, but he does raise a good point: MS is split into three groups who are responsible for developing and delivering products, whether that be Windows, Office, MS "Bob", whatever. These are Program Managers who write specs and listen to users, Developers who take the specs and write the actual code, and Testers who take the Developers code and break it as much as possible to make sure the code is stable. Barr's point was that in the early days, Microsoft was developer-orientated. Developers got to choose what products they would develop and how they would be developed. The products produced were great for a certain class of individuals who could think the same way those developers did. The result was MS-DOS. Barr thinks this era came to an end when MS Windows 3.0 was released. From that point on, the PMs took control and user interests dictated the direction of the company. User feedback became king. As a result, we got Win95 (yuk!), then WinNT (better), then WinXP (getting there), and the track will continue - they are realising now what Apple did in the early 1980's. He predicts this era will come to an end soon though, and it will be the testers that become dominant within the cycle. They will be determining when a product is ready to be released, not the PMs. With Open Source, we've seen a similar cycle. In the early days, dev effort went into the kernel, drivers for equipment that developers had lying around, programming tools, mail clients that worked great for people like us (mutt! yes, I love mutt! My Mum wouldn't have a clue though), and so forth. Then, people started wanting to get their parents, their bosses, the sales guy downstairs, the guy at the grocers, everybody, to start using the software. But these people don't care about how cool the virtual memory subsystem is. They don't care about KSE. They care about being able to send e-mails easily, surfing the web and sending a letter to Auntie Doris. We're now on that bell curve. The problem is (and yes, it is a severe problem), the developers will always be in charge and dictate the direction and therefore the usefullness of any system. Take for example the recent debate as to whether core should be reformed, over on -chat. Without wanting to go over that again, the developers insisted they were completely in charge and nobody had a right to say anything about anything unless they were submitting diffs. THAT is the reason why ultimately Open Source will fail: it's not in any developer's interest to listen to the requirements of those individuals who do not have the time, expertise or motivation to implement something themselves without the developer receiving some other gain (such as money). This is reasonable, but unless another way of working can be found, users will start walking away. There is all the cultural stuff as well, but that's more orientated to the Gen-X idealism of how licensing should work. In the end, that'll fall on it's face too, but that's for another day. This mail is long enough already. :-) Anyway, now I've put this over onto -chat, I'm sure this will evolve into a nightmarish thread that will continue ad infinitum. -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 9: 2:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3514637B401 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E648D43F93 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:01:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0147.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.147] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18lXbN-0004tU-00; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:01:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3E53B820.BC50E3AA@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 09:00:16 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a44b13e3c187b101e656ad1dafa6128dd22601a10902912494350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > OK, I've moved this over to -chat where it belongs more than -hackers, > trimmed the CCs, and turned this into a bit of a rant. For those just tuning > in, Terry thought it would be a good idea to write a full-on GIS map > rendering system so you could find your local user groups in a cool way. This grossly misrepresents my position. My position is that there is no software to provide this service, and that people who want this service should write such software, if they truly want the service. The problem with demands for a particular service while ignoring the existance of enabling infrastructure should be obvious. Maybe I should have said "Send Patches", like everyone else does... > That's besides the point. Apologies for length of mail, but be thankful this > is now only 35% of the size it was going to be before I trimmed it - I had a > fun lunchtime! :-) 8-). > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Sure, if you'll let me point out again that the original poster > > wanted the maps to be clickable. 8-) 8-). > > GIS != Imagemaps. :-) Little imagemaps have to come from somewhere. The active regions, when clicked, also have to be converted on the basis of known map coordinates relative to the image, which is in turn, relative to the image type. Imagemaps don't really cut it, I think. > > FWIW: the important gateing factors on any Open Source project are: > > > > 1) Motivation (a problem to solve, that people can agree on) > > You don't get paid for OSS work, so you'll work on what you feel like, and > only when you feel like it. This is completely reasonable. At the moment I'm > working with somebody on a proposal for taking over the competition at > the5k.org and the one thing we're trying to avoid is filling it with > bureaucracy simply because to do so would bring it to a grinding halt. We > deal with that rubbish all day long - we don't need to do it all night long > too. :-) The idea that motivation boils down to "what I feel like doing today" is an oversimplification. Anyone who has seriously followed the travails of the FreeBSD project, or any of dozens of other successful projects, must be aware of this: there is a cost to cooperation, and it must be paid by the participants, in order to obtain the payment they are seeking. Whether this is ego gratification, or some other form of payment, the transaction involved is always one of simple economics. One commonly (and cynically) cited payment is "ego gratification". While there are some people in the FreeBSD project motivated by performing almost purely mechanical modifications of large numbers of files, in order to get their login name on the most recent CVS stamp and in the $Id$ tag of source files, this is not, I think, the primary motivation for most of the project participants. This really has nothing to do with bureaucracy, or the lack thereof: process is necessary in terms of establishing feedback systems for any project or business, but process is not the product (with rare exceptions, such as Microsoft, USL, or IBM). The goal is a system of self-regulating, homeostatic systems, which can maintain an equilibrium point for an extended perio of time, and which then self-correct from preterbations, back to that, or another stable point. You would be hard-put to simply design a new set of systems, and simply "throw the switch", and have the new organization spring, full grown, from Zeus's head, and be successful (you can do this with "for-pay" organizations, but not with volunteer projects, unless you control a sufficient number of the participants; every merger-and-acquisition does this, usually to an extreme degree). If you are truly going to attempt this, with the blessing of the present project participants, then you must be prepared to identify all the equalibria points between the current state and your target state, if you aren't going to lose people over the discontinuities. In a "for pay" organization, you have money as a motivator; that is, you have voluntary participation, with economic exchange for such participation. The amount you can change your organization out from under the participants is *much* higher in a "for pay" organization, since you have an established means to make up margin, and you have a very large margin to begin with. Participation in a pure voluntary project has economic payment, too, but the margin is much, much smaller, and it is self selected by each participant. While you can group almost all participants into rough categories, which permits you to adjust rewards on the basis of each participants wants, you do not have the leeway for change that you have with a "for pay" organization. > > 2) Working code (something that comes close to solving the > > problem, or from which people can see a solution) > > This is critical, and is the reason why we're now seeing more "mainstream" > applications like OpenOffice appear on open operating systems. If you don't > have a decent framework that is easy to work with, it's perceived to be too > risky to try and build something on top that is relatively complicated. > Also, companies are starting to realise that giving away code is not the end > of the world. OpenOffice is a different phenomenon entirely. It is a copy of a commercial product, with very little in terms of innovation. For example, after the use of controlling access to support, training, and documentation as a means of copy protection in the late 1980's and throughout the 1990's, to pick up my prior example, it would be incredibly foolish to embed these requirements in future work. What kind of idiot would create a word processor that required documentation, without some overriding business/systems need for a need for someone to provide it? What is so incredibly hard about merely the *idea* of word processing, such that this should be necessary? One answer is that software vendors have marched up market, following the pattern recognized by Clayton M. Christensen on "The Innovators Dilemma". In other words, they are able to successfully defend their existing market by way of increased complexity, and the inability of Open Source equivalents to manage complexity. We see this in the use of "embrace and extend" tactics, and in the pushing of increasingly (and technically unjustifiably) complex standards through the public standards processes. > > 3) Community (communications and peers to provide a context in > > which the work can take place) > > Or in the case of some mailing lists around here, people scream at each > other... That is a matter of control of the feedback systems. There are a number of ways that this can be managed so as to damp out disruptive influences which do not lead to information exchange and/or other means of progress. Control of SPAM and trolls has and will continue to stay ahead of the value curve for any forum supporting a successful project. This is definitional. > > A lot of people have #1, so they declare a Source Forge project, try > > to cookie-cutter #3 (impossible to do), and leverage having #1 and #3 > > into someone creating #2 (also impossible to do). > > Indeed. Sourceforge is littered with the debris-like manifestations of good > intentions. Source Forge is, to my mind, a failure, which has arisen from a fundamental understanding of mutual altruism networks. One could make the same case for GPL, which attempts to build enforced altruism networks. Much of this misperception comes from sources such as "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", which have a fundamentally incorrect model. > > As a matter of fact, I claim that, given any #2, I can *find* #1, > > and *create* #3. > > What you're saying is that projects are easy to bootstrap if there is > already a decent chunk of code in existence. In other words, it's easy. This > does not take into account the fact that at some point, somebody, somewhere, > has to have the vision to come up with something genuinely new, recognise > it's difficult, and go ahead with it's implementation anyway. No, actually, you have to have working code. If "a decent chunk of code", Mozilla would not have screwed itself so thoroughly, and the Net/2 release would have been sufficient for BSD-based Open Source projects to have popped up everywhere. Yet Mozilla *did* screw itself, and BSD-based Open Source projects all waited for the trigger of 386BSD and the working code it provided. The problem is the nature of the people involved in volunteer projects. Outside an academic, or sometimes corporate, research setting, where a small team is paid to look into something useful or innovative, there is little or no motivation to to attempt the difficult. Instead, your pool of volunteers is made up of people who like to tinker, and are not satisfied with the way things are, but those people generally have no great leadership skills or vision of a future that they are then prepared to work hard at making real. You don't really get a lot of innovation in Open Source projects, once they hit a certain level of organization; instead, you get an initial impetus, and then a lot of drift, with occasional infusions of brilliant work by lone innovators or small teams (usually academic) who care strongly enough about their ideas to fight and win against incredible opposition by inertia. > Some examples: > > - A decent Visio-like program for X. The current bunch that try to emulate > it don't cut the mustard > - Something like Macromedia Stuido MX - Quanta just doesn't get there at > all. > - Here's a radical idea: a compiler that is command-line compatible with gcc > but is available under a BSD license. Then, all the GNU stuff to be > re-implemented under a BSD license. OK, this is a politcal point, but there > is value there. > > These things will get done one day, when somebody is either paid to do it, > or has the guts, conviction, time and motivation to do them. Not really. They won't get done, or they will get done to spite someone making a statement like this one. The first two won't get done because Open Source is inherently incapable of prodcutization. The people you see involved in Open Source are programmers, who are frustrated with their lack of control. It's either control of the design, control of the features of software already in hand, or control of what they perceive as quality. In each case, these are things which they are denied by their employers in their "day jobs", because, being engineers, they do not have a shared sense of esthetics with the people who employ them. Even so, having an offended sense of esthetics does not imbue one with "good taste". It doesn't take more than a mediocre engineer to be offended at having to perform a "quick and dirty hack" to get a product out the door, with a management promise of "we will revisit the problem and correct the implementation later". And a mediocre engineer will not create a brilliant design, they will only create a mediocre design. The third thing may or may not get done. As you rightly point out, it's a political issue, and politics is a stronger motivation than ego: with ego, all tha's necessary is that you win; with politics, it is also necessary that someone else lose. You invest doubly in politics. But in general, issues like this are not relevent to the enlightened individual, if they are recognizable as tactical, and not strategic. Do I personally care whether FreeBSD use GCC? No; it's a tactical technology: it has no strategic value. For that same reason, I did not try to argue Andrew Tridgell out of putting the code I browbeat him into releasing under a BSD license: today, SAMBA is under the GPL, and is unlikely to ever spawn a BSD licensed equivalent for a myriad of good reasons, all having to do with being able to motivate the people donating their sweat equity to the project. The point is, you come closest to motivating project like this with political rhetoric, yet almost all motivation will fall far short of incenting a project. It is not enough to declare a project. You must lead. And the way you must lead is through already working code, because few of the people you attract will be more than information age tinkers. > > That sounds like most modern commercial software, to me, since it's > > got legacy design factors from the 1980's/1990's causing it to need > > documentation, support, and training materials as part of the (no > > longer relevent) copy protection systems that grew up around the > > software developement process. > > And of course, FreeBSD has no legacy factors in at all! :-) That might be > unfair, as pretty much everything that is important has either undergone an > evaluation and change, is going through it now, or is penned in for it soon. > The real problem with projects as complicated as say FreeBSD or Mozilla is > that there are occasions when too many cooks turn up. Complicated things are > those things most cooks don't understand, simple things they do, therefore > we get "bikeshed syndrome". How many analogies can I mix up? :-) Too many? 8-). The real issue with management of complexity by groups of tinkers is that it's not going to happen in such a way as to make things work, except by accident. For FreeBSD, Julian Elischer has been one of the primary forces that has, historically, pushed technology into the project. My SYSINIT() code, Netgraph, the existance of SCSI drivers, and now KSE, as well as dozens of other major and minor technological advancements, owe their existance in FreeBSD to Julian Elischer. But Julian is an exception, and it has cost him a lot of accumulated captial, in many ways, to push these innovations forward against strong opposition by the unenlightened tinkers, who see all such changes as non-reversible risks: a tinker operates by doing something small, which can then be undone, if it turns out to have been a bad idea. There are other people I could use as examples in this regard, but Julian is probably the best, and will, I think, be least offended by being held up to scrutiny. > > Seriously, it took a *lot* of skill to come up with the first Word > > Processor that needed documentation for people to be able to use it > > ("PC Write"). The author, Bob Wallace, said at one convention where he > > spoke, "Software...", gestured expressively above and to the sides of > > his head, "...is all up here. I sell manuals.". > > Yeah, I can see that. Makes sense in the context of a 1980's software > market. It's not the case any more though. Last night I read a book by an > ex-Microsoft employee named Andrew Barr entitled "Proudly Serving my > Corporate Masters". It's a bit tongue in cheek, but he does raise a good > point: Microsoft has this paradigm engineered into its genes, and so does any company that writes software to the Microsoft genome, and any company that copies Microsoft or one of those companies, either to cross a platform chasm, or to try to be "first to be second" in the market dominated by one of these players. In a lot of ways, Jeff Raskin is right, and still no one is listening. In two of your examples of products that you think should/will be written, you yourself fell into this trap of cloning from bad gene stock. > MS is split into three groups who are responsible for developing and > delivering products, whether that be Windows, Office, MS "Bob", whatever. > These are Program Managers who write specs and listen to users, Developers > who take the specs and write the actual code, and Testers who take the > Developers code and break it as much as possible to make sure the code is > stable. This is the myth of "Code Complete": by breaking this down this way, you build a process that is capable of having a crank turned, and when it is turned, out the other end of the machine comes something that is identical in philosophy to the things which are already out there, and selling well, and therefore you think your thing will sell well, too. At a former employer, there was an engineer who believed in this philosophy so completely, they wanted everyone to accept Steve McConnell as their personal saviour. An excellent engineer, but they could not understand my reluctance to join their religion, because they saw everything in terms of process: for them, the process *was* the product, and any business was just a side effect. It was very much like being back at USL. > Barr's point was that in the early days, Microsoft was developer-orientated. > Developers got to choose what products they would develop and how they would > be developed. The products produced were great for a certain class of > individuals who could think the same way those developers did. The result > was MS-DOS. Barr thinks this era came to an end when MS Windows 3.0 was > released. From that point on, the PMs took control and user interests > dictated the direction of the company. User feedback became king. As a > result, we got Win95 (yuk!), then WinNT (better), then WinXP (getting > there), and the track will continue - they are realising now what Apple did > in the early 1980's. He predicts this era will come to an end soon though, > and it will be the testers that become dominant within the cycle. They will > be determining when a product is ready to be released, not the PMs. It would be interesting to see this, but I doubt he's right. The Windows developement paradigm is 1980's-loaded to ensure that there is an investment in end-user training, such that there will be a cost associated with moving to another platform. Microsoft gets you coming and going: there is a cost in training for Microsoft products, and there is a cost in retraining for the new platform, because the new platform has emulated the Microsoft barrier model. I'd like to hope that this is accidental, but in my heart, I believe it's because it's ingrained into software design philosophy, all the way to the first year in colledge, or even high school courses. One piece of evidence for this is all the people who've never seriously studied CS, some of whom have never attended any college at all, who all believe that they are God's gift to software engineering. You see this sort of person posting place like "Slashdot" and other developer forums, where you get a semi-illiterate rant, full of pool spelling and shortened versions of English words. The worst part of it is that they believe that they are communicating their point effectively and persuasively because all their IRC buddies are posting followups with the same poor grammar and spelling. I expect that these, and other obstacles, mean that the testing departments will never have final signing authority on product releases, and that if they did, the products that ended up being created through that process, would meet neither user expectations, nor corporate sales goals. One question that you should ask yourself on this is "Why do people buy new versions of Microsoft products when they already own the old versions of these products?" The followup question to that is "Why, if product developement is changed to a fully user and quality-centric model, would people continue to buy new versions of these products?". If you can't answer the followup question, the you've just validated a business reason for not changing the model. > With Open Source, we've seen a similar cycle. In the early days, dev effort > went into the kernel, drivers for equipment that developers had lying > around, programming tools, mail clients that worked great for people like us > (mutt! yes, I love mutt! My Mum wouldn't have a clue though), and so forth. > Then, people started wanting to get their parents, their bosses, the sales > guy downstairs, the guy at the grocers, everybody, to start using the > software. But these people don't care about how cool the virtual memory > subsystem is. They don't care about KSE. They care about being able to send > e-mails easily, surfing the web and sending a letter to Auntie Doris. We're > now on that bell curve. This isn't really true. People will be able to sell Late Adopters, given this model, and given a huge investment in training and support (the Open Source alternative to employing gifted people with English degrees to write documentation). The current investment a new user makes in learning the Microsoft usage paradigm is $2,500 per seat. That's the barrier to entry for Open Source, unless it copies all of everything exactly. Selling the Early Adopters might also be possible; you sell the early adopters on *precisely* things like "how cool" and "KSE". To do this, you have to compete with industry buzzwords, like ".Net", "Palladium", and so on: the things which might mean a change in the way things are done, entirely. But these groups together comprise a tiny portion of the total bell curve, and you aren't reaching the mainstream. You can't. The value proposition for the mainstream is whether or not they can hire a temp for a week in accounting, and that person will be able to use the tools in place, without needing training. > The problem is (and yes, it is a severe problem), the developers will always > be in charge and dictate the direction and therefore the usefullness of any > system. Take for example the recent debate as to whether core should be > reformed, over on -chat. Without wanting to go over that again, the > developers insisted they were completely in charge and nobody had a right to > say anything about anything unless they were submitting diffs. THAT is the > reason why ultimately Open Source will fail: it's not in any developer's > interest to listen to the requirements of those individuals who do not have > the time, expertise or motivation to implement something themselves without > the developer receiving some other gain (such as money). This is reasonable, > but unless another way of working can be found, users will start walking > away. This brings me back to my earlier discussion of margin. There is only so much distance you can move from an equalibrium point on your way to the next one, before you hit inelasticity in the economics. Good luck on "the5k.org". I think you will need it. But change is possible, if you chart a true course. Originally, there was just "the core team"; it self-assembled out of the people doing the "386BSD 0.5 Interim Release", based on the people to whom I handed off responsibility for unofficial patchkit (Jordan, Nate, Rod, et. al.). Then it was self-perpetuated, by internal nomination and torch-passing. Then it went to pure internal election. Now it is election by the larger community of committers. This was a (more or less) natural progression, and it took time to overcome the economic elasticity. Even so, certain people whose threshold was exceeded for "too long" have fallen by the wayside as a result of these transitions of power. But it hasn't been the bloodbath it would have been, had the switch been attempted over night. > There is all the cultural stuff as well, but that's more orientated to the > Gen-X idealism of how licensing should work. In the end, that'll fall on > it's face too, but that's for another day. This mail is long enough already. > :-) Culture actually has very little to do with it; selection of participation based on license is one thing that needs a relatively high degree of familiarity with the issues to make a decision on. Most people end up conforming their views to the community, rather than selecting a community on that basis, in my experience. 8-). > Anyway, now I've put this over onto -chat, I'm sure this will evolve into a > nightmarish thread that will continue ad infinitum. You can only hope... ;^). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 10:14:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A9B37B401 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from murdoch.servitor.co.uk (murdoch.servitor.co.uk [217.151.99.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61DEE43F85 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from mmu-firewall.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.101.200] helo=miter96pq2w1fz) by murdoch.servitor.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.33 #3) id 18lYk5-00075F-00; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:14:49 +0000 From: "Paul Robinson" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 18:14:48 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3E53B820.BC50E3AA@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This was going to be huge if I'd answered all that, so I've trimmed it where appropriate. It's still not a light read. :-) Terry Lambert wrote: > This grossly misrepresents my position. Wasn't my intention, and I must have got the wrong end of the stick. My apologies. That's how it read to me. > Maybe I should have said "Send Patches", like everyone else does... You just did. :-) > One commonly (and cynically) cited payment is "ego gratification". > While there are some people in the FreeBSD project motivated by > performing almost purely mechanical modifications of large numbers of > files, in order to get their login name on the most recent CVS stamp > and in the $Id$ tag of source files, this is not, I think, the > primary motivation for most of the project participants. Some of those modifications are necessary however, and need to be done by somebody at some point. Well, in some cases anyway. Personally I stay away from the development side of the project because I know I don't have the time to do the job as well as I would want to do it, and I can become a perfectionist. It might change later this year though. I hope so. > You would be hard-put to simply design a new set of systems, and > simply "throw the switch", and have the new organization spring, > full grown, from Zeus's head, Actually, the ease with which you can do that is inversely proportional to the complexity of the system. I'm sure that between us, everybody on the freebsd lists could get a working "count_to(x)" function working perfectly within the next 3 months and we would be confident in it's "correctness" without having to test it too much. I don't think the same could be said if we decided we were going to write a functionally equivalent piece of software to say, Visual Studio .NET in the same time frame and then just "release it" on a given day. That's why the concept of -RELEASE always makes me chuckle a little. > OpenOffice is a different phenomenon entirely. It is a copy of a > commercial product, with very little in terms of innovation. For Ah, but it opens a lot of doors. Five years ago, no even two years ago, if you'd said to the boss of a small non-tech outfit "install Linux or FreeBSD instead of Windows", the biggest thing preventing him/her from doing so would be the fact that they wouldn't be able to send and receive Word and Excel spreadsheets. StarOffice got rid of that barrier, then created another one that OpenOffice took down again. > What kind of idiot would create a word processor that required documentation, > without some overriding business/systems need for a need for someone to > provide it? What is so incredibly hard about merely the *idea* of word > processing, such that this should be necessary? It's a change of contextual thinking as far as the user is concerned. That's why stories of secretaries putting Tippex all over their screen exist. Word processors are yesterday's news these days, but back then, the idea of a Word processor or a spreadsheet and how it operated were alien concepts. Even now I know of accountants who have been working in small villages with paper based systems that don't understand that a spreadsheet *automatically does the maths*. When I have explained it, they've sat there in awe at how easy fiscal modelling becomes, never mind book-keeping. That's the point they become excited. Once that mental jump is made, it's easy. Making the jump though... > In other words, they are able to successfully defend their > existing market by way of increased complexity, and the inability of > Open Source equivalents to manage complexity. We see this in the use > of "embrace and extend" tactics, and in the pushing of increasingly > (and technically unjustifiably) complex standards through the public > standards processes. XML being one of those, IMHO. MS has been good at this for a while. They're cleverer than perhaps they give themselves credit for. If it wasn't for that damned calendaring thing they came up with, Exchange wouldn't be in too many SMEs these days. This isn't about complexity though, it's about functionality. It goes back to the MS Program Managers understanding what a user would like, and getting it into the product. Nobody does that in the Open source world outside of their own organisation. Even when the need is clearly identified - "we want shared calendars like in Outlook" - the complexity of producing an identical product THEN becomes overwhelming, so they produce something inferior based around a webmail package. This is a flaw in the process, it's virtually impossible to fix. > Source Forge is, to my mind, a failure, which has arisen from a > fundamental understanding of mutual altruism networks. One could > make the same case for GPL, which attempts to build enforced > altruism networks. Much of this misperception comes from sources > such as "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", which have a fundamentally > incorrect model. Don't get me started on ESR. That's a whole new discussion. Cathedral and Bazaar did more damage to OSS than pretty much anything else I can think of right now. Good intentions, but the model is terrible. As for sourceforge, it's not a failure, it's just not very efficient. That is to say, there is a better model for what they want to acheive, the difference is, they've actually done it and nobody else has. > Yet Mozilla *did* screw itself, > and BSD-based Open Source projects all waited for the trigger of 386BSD > and the working code it provided. Somebody (let's not get into the argument) somewhere, one day sat down and wrote the beginnings of what eventually became Unix. They did not have existing code, just ideas. If you're saying all software must be evolutionary, then I disagree. It's easier for software to evolve over multiple iterations and restarts to get to the ideal system than it is to sit around and design perfection and then go for implementing the "perfect" system but that does not mean all software must be evolutionary. > The problem is the nature of the people involved in volunteer projects. Here we go... > Instead, your pool of volunteers is made up of people who like to > tinker, and are not satisfied with the way things are, but those > people generally have no great leadership skills or vision of a > future that they are then prepared to work hard at making real. That's a little harsh. It's true that many developers would rather implement things their own way rather than buy in existing products or use existing code that isn't quite perfect. Particularly if they know it's easy, but slightly fun and can go on the CV. > In a lot of ways, Jeff Raskin is right, and still no one is listening. > In two of your examples of products that you think should/will be > written, you yourself fell into this trap of cloning from bad gene > stock. Agreed. But that's because they work. They work very, very well. If there was a better way of doing what they do, I wish I could think of what it was. I'd probably not OSS it though, because I'd want to make some cash. :-) > At a former employer, there was an engineer who believed in this > philosophy so completely, they wanted everyone to accept Steve > McConnell as their personal saviour. An excellent engineer, but > they could not understand my reluctance to join their religion, > because they saw everything in terms of process: for them, the > process *was* the product, and any business was just a side effect. > It was very much like being back at USL. The process is important, but then my degree is Software Engineering, and I'm currently a manager who has little to do with code production. My view is probably skewed. The important thing is that the process is supposed to be lightweight and non-intrusive. The requirements cpature process is important though, and if you can adopt Extreme programming, or at least aspects of it, then you can through process increase the quality of your product. > "Why, if product developement is > changed to a fully user and quality-centric model, would people > continue to buy new versions of these products?". User requirements change in the same way as everything else. People don't buy new clothes, furniture and consumer electronics on a regular basis because they don't have something that was not user and quality-centric when it was designed. It's just that the requirements change. With clothing, this happens on a seasonal basis for some people. My old TV was fine, so why did I buy a 32" widescreen? My VCR was fine, so why a DVD? Functional upgrades? Change in perception of quality? Fashion? All these and more play into it. Software is no different. > The value proposition for the mainstream is whether or not they can hire a temp > for a week in accounting, and that person will be able to use the tools > in place, without needing training. The transition between WordPerfect and Word happened. The transition away from Word can happen. The issue though is whether people can get done what they need to, and if there are other advantages. At the moment, advocates are harming OSS by telling everybody that OSS has a lower TCO which is bull, but not pointing out the real advantages. Unfortunately, those advantages can be swallowed up by MS or anybody else on the commercial side the moment they wake up and smell the coffee. > Most people end up conforming their views to the community, rather > than selecting a community on that basis, in my experience. 8-). You evidently didn't spend much time as a teenager then. :-) I know I don't really belong in the Unix crowd - I'm a bit of an intruder. But I don't belong in the Windows crowd either. I definitely don't belong with the academics, but I would look stupid with a skateboard, so I just define my community as "me". Culturally, my views are orientated as to what I think is best for myself and the people around me. I don't listen to other people who disagree too much, and end up seeking out those communities who think a bit like me, as a result I have a remarkably diverse group of friends (everybody from criminals to lawyers, geeks to people who play polo). I thought everybody else was the same. Perhaps I need to drink more Pepsi instead of Dr Pepper, eat McD's instead of Tuna Ciabattas, play Grand Theft Auto instead of Poker, and watch more MTV instead of going to classical music concerts. :-) -- Paul Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 10:32:17 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EC8737B401 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastet.rfc822.net (bastet.rfc822.net [64.81.113.233]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB5643F75 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:32:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pde@bastet.rfc822.net) Received: by bastet.rfc822.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 662649F169; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:33:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:33:22 -0600 From: Pete Ehlke To: Brad Knowles Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books Message-ID: <20030219183322.GA47133@rfc822.net> References: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E1FF12B.5390D978@mindspring.com> <20030111144619.X22424@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E21FD22.38CD81BB@mindspring.com> <20030113141542.GC2260@rfc822.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 23, 2003 at 06:12:09PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 8:15 AM -0600 2003/01/13, Pete Ehlke wrote: > > > Does anyone know the story about NSD? I've looked at it several times, > > run it and played with it locally quite a bit, and found it extremely > > interesting. But I've had a third-hand report that RIPE folks have said > > (third hand, but this is the direct quote I got...) "the damn thing just > > didn't work". Haven't been able to get more than that. > > Interestingly, it is now in production on ns.eu.net: > And, as of today/tomorrow, on K.root-servers.net. -P. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 11:47:12 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ABE837B42C for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18E5443F3F for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:47:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: from localhost.localdomain (unknown[12.242.158.67]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with ESMTP id <2003021919470700200a2106e>; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:47:07 +0000 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h1JJjx5F071010 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:45:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) Received: (from jojo@localhost) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.6/8.12.5/Submit) id h1JJjr2u071007; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 11:45:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from swear@attbi.com) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.localdomain: jojo set sender to swear@attbi.com using -f To: Subject: Re: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) References: From: swear@attbi.com (Gary W. Swearingen) Date: 19 Feb 2003 11:45:53 -0800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <58of582gwe.f58@localhost.localdomain> Lines: 11 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0808 (Gnus v5.8.8) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [...] it would be a good idea to write a full-on GIS map > rendering system so you could find your local user groups in a cool way. I recently saw a GIS map that made me say "cool". A world map which allowed one to select a city (in a recent Red Hat installer). What made it cool what that it kept a red line connecting the pointer to the city nearest the pointer, so you could easily tell which city you would be selected by clicking. Of course, in this case it might have been good enough to just display the name of the city nearest the pointer, but that wouldn't have made me say "cool". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 12:50:13 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C3E37B401 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from picard.skynet.be (picard.skynet.be [195.238.3.88]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E2843F93 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 12:50:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brad.knowles@skynet.be) Received: from [10.0.1.4] (ip-26.shub-internet.org [194.78.144.26] (may be forged)) by picard.skynet.be (8.12.7/8.12.7/Skynet-OUT-2.21) with ESMTP id h1JKo4Hh018840; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:50:05 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from ) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: bs663385@pop.skynet.be Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20030219183322.GA47133@rfc822.net> References: <20030110234309.R12065@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E1FF12B.5390D978@mindspring.com> <20030111144619.X22424@2-234-22-23.pyvrag.nggov.pbz> <3E21FD22.38CD81BB@mindspring.com> <20030113141542.GC2260@rfc822.net> <20030219183322.GA47133@rfc822.net> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:32:27 +0100 To: Pete Ehlke From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Need advice on PHP and MySQL books Cc: Brad Knowles , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:33 PM -0600 2003/02/19, Pete Ehlke wrote: > And, as of today/tomorrow, on K.root-servers.net. Indeed, I saw the announcement by Daniel. I'm looking forward to their anycast operations, so that we have more than just one root nameserver operating in this manner (see ), albeit perhaps with slightly different technical implementations. -- Brad Knowles, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania. GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI++++$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+ !w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++) tv+(+++) b+(++++) DI+(++++) D+(++) G+(++++) e++>++++ h--- r---(+++)* z(+++) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 13: 7:33 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F08837B401; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [209.224.20.19]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DAC843F3F; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:07:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nospam@hiltonbsd.com) Received: from [198.31.224.128] (helo=daggar.sbgnet.net) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 18lbR4-0002NN-00; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:07:23 -0600 Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 15:07:13 -0600 From: Stephen Hilton To: "Paul Robinson" Cc: , , , , Subject: Re: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) Message-Id: <20030219150713.474855b5.nospam@hiltonbsd.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3E5376A5.9EB8FC3@mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386-portbld-freebsd4.7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 13:19:04 -0000 "Paul Robinson" wrote: > OK, I've moved this over to -chat where it belongs more than -hackers, > trimmed the CCs, and turned this into a bit of a rant. For those just tuning > in, Terry thought it would be a good idea to write a full-on GIS map > rendering system so you could find your local user groups in a cool way. > That's besides the point. Apologies for length of mail, but be thankful this > is now only 35% of the size it was going to be before I trimmed it - I had a > fun lunchtime! :-) > > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Sure, if you'll let me point out again that the original poster > > wanted the maps to be clickable. 8-) 8-). > Actually I had the "cool" idea regarding a way to find others in my geographic area that have an interest in BSD, and as Nik pointed out, it is a re-invention of the wheel as the perl mongers already have done a similar style web interface. Whether this was implemented via GIS, GPS, latitude & longitude, etc... was not even a thought when I posted, and I am surprised that GIS is something that is still a mostly closed source type application. This is a recognized area of interest for many people, and with a little research I found an ongoing project, practically in my backyard. http://mapserver.gis.umn.edu/ This project is not a complete solution, but is a major step in the right direction. My suggestion for a web locator for BSD interested people was not intended as a call for developers time to blaze a new trail, there are many more *important* fish to fry out there, it was a selfish request to make it easier to find other BSD interested parties in my geographic area for possible educational and social interaction. I have joined the list for my closest BSD user group, and look forward to attending my first meeting, but finding a date and time where the existing group members can meet seems to be a never ending problem. Not having the detailed history of the development of UNIX, and what wheels are already invented is a high-bar that is presented to people new to FreeBSD, it is also one of the reasons that I arrived at FreeBSD as my personally favorite OS. The ability to not repeat history, due to the continuing study and in depth understanding of history, is something that I find lacking in a lot of places now. This does not IMHO seem to be a problem with this project, the guidance of people who have "been around the block before" seems to be ever present, and welcome. FreeBSD seems to me to be a place where experienced professionals mentor and guide the new talent, hopefully the new gurus will be kind enough to share their knowledge and history of computing with their following generation of proteges. From regularly reading several FreeBSD lists it has dawned on me that my posting to hackers is probably not a good thing, mostly because I am not a programmer, so my ability to contribute there is minimal, but as a read-only lurker I find the discussions fascinating, and do gradually gain a better overall understanding of some of the concepts and subjects. > GIS != Imagemaps. :-) Approaching this from another angle, documentation != vi. But when a person without the necessary background in the fu of documentation wants to *learn* or accomplish a task, a text file created in *vi* may be just what is needed at that point. :-) > > FWIW: the important gateing factors on any Open Source project are: > > > > 1) Motivation (a problem to solve, that people can agree on) > > You don't get paid for OSS work, so you'll work on what you feel like, and > only when you feel like it. This is completely reasonable. At the moment I'm > working with somebody on a proposal for taking over the competition at > the5k.org and the one thing we're trying to avoid is filling it with > bureaucracy simply because to do so would bring it to a grinding halt. We > deal with that rubbish all day long - we don't need to do it all night long > too. :-) > > > 2) Working code (something that comes close to solving the > > problem, or from which people can see a solution) > > This is critical, and is the reason why we're now seeing more "mainstream" > applications like OpenOffice appear on open operating systems. If you don't > have a decent framework that is easy to work with, it's perceived to be too > risky to try and build something on top that is relatively complicated. > Also, companies are starting to realise that giving away code is not the end > of the world. > > > 3) Community (communications and peers to provide a context in > > which the work can take place) > > Or in the case of some mailing lists around here, people scream at each > other... The ability to take a task or problem and distill it into a outline, followed by the mathematics to model and create a flexible and elegant solution is what makes the guru programmers such a valuable resource to a project. But these skills do not always go hand in hand with the ability to interface with the control structure, end user, or even with co-developers. System analysts, project managers, documentation writers, beta testers, technicians, focus groups, end user feedback, etc... are all examples of the interfaces and structures needed to create a "whole" solution. To marginalize any of the parts of the "whole" only weakens it. Why the discussions from such brilliant minds sometimes dwells on the the reasons why something will not work, and cite books and papers to prove this is beyond me. I would like to reference a very important title that has helped many people and projects to succeed: _Little Engine That Could_ by: Watty Piper Without the people who have disregarded others views of "the way things work" we would have a nicley documented by scribe description of our flat earth on clay tablets. > > > A lot of people have #1, so they declare a Source Forge project, try > > to cookie-cutter #3 (impossible to do), and leverage having #1 and #3 > > into someone creating #2 (also impossible to do). > > Indeed. Sourceforge is littered with the debris-like manifestations of good > intentions. But the good intentions do stand on their own, the original project may have fallen by the wayside, but can we really measure the impact of a meeting of minds, that may have never occurred with out the focus point of a shared idea. The pool of people capable of writing really good code is quite limited, so an abandoned Sourceforge project could be the future focus point to join one of these gifted programmers with others, who can provide support in the other areas, leaving the code hacker to do her best, at hacking code :-) > > As a matter of fact, I claim that, given any #2, I can *find* #1, > > and *create* #3. -------------many paragraphs snipped-------------- -------------------------------------------------- > There is all the cultural stuff as well, but that's more orientated to the > Gen-X idealism of how licensing should work. In the end, that'll fall on > it's face too, but that's for another day. This mail is long enough already. > :-) Yes, the dreaded licensing quagmire. So many speak about freedom and giving back to the community, here is my two cents worth. The BSD type license is the model of true sharing and freedom, without it Apple would still be a closed system, and I would have never spent $ to purchase one. With FreeBSD as a foundation, my wife now uses an iMac as she continues her education, and tells me how much nicer her workstation is at home, than the machines in the schools lab. And I do not have to dread maintaining her workstation, it is a joy to see it happily purring away on its very solid foundation. I see many examples in the BSD world of the beauty of our license, people like to live in comfort and security, and when that basic need is fulfilled, the sharing of their knowledge, without strings attached, is a true indicator of their desire to help create a better world. The fear of my intellectual property being "stolen by X" is exactly that, a fear, and nothing more. Create your code, write your books, invent your widgets, hold the rights to these devices to secure your comfort, then when the time is right for you, free the ideas. What is wrong with others profiting from your work, I profit every day from this rich society, enhanced by people willing to share. Regards, Stephen Hilton nospam@hiltonbsd.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 19 19:39:28 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9775337B401 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:39:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net (heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.189]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2B243FA3 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0298.cvx22-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.199.43] helo=mindspring.com) by heron.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18lhY9-00077e-00; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:39:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3E544D66.4065A126@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:37:10 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a466ddaf66fced9b6d35cbe194aba857fb666fa475841a1c7a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > You would be hard-put to simply design a new set of systems, and > > simply "throw the switch", and have the new organization spring, > > full grown, from Zeus's head, > > Actually, the ease with which you can do that is inversely proportional to > the complexity of the system. I'm sure that between us, everybody on the > freebsd lists could get a working "count_to(x)" function working perfectly > within the next 3 months and we would be confident in it's "correctness" > without having to test it too much. I don't think the same could be said if > we decided we were going to write a functionally equivalent piece of > software to say, Visual Studio .NET in the same time frame and then just > "release it" on a given day. That's why the concept of -RELEASE always makes > me chuckle a little. This was actually a comment on the systems of operation of the project itself, not the software that a project produces. I think, sometimes, that software people reuse terminology so quickly that they become "vocabulary blind". For example, if I were to say that this discourages "introspection", you could think I meant something other than philosophical self-examination. 8-). In this context, "systems" was intended to mean things like "the process by which you get increasingly sanctioned on a mailing list for trolling, until you are removed from the list", or "the process by shich SPAM source addresses are reported to a blackhole list, and less immediately, but more permanently banned from participation in the mailing list". It also means "the process by which one becomes a committer", "the process by which one becomes a core team member", "the process by which one has one's commit bit revoked", etc.. > > OpenOffice is a different phenomenon entirely. It is a copy of a > > commercial product, with very little in terms of innovation. For > > Ah, but it opens a lot of doors. Five years ago, no even two years ago, if > you'd said to the boss of a small non-tech outfit "install Linux or FreeBSD > instead of Windows", the biggest thing preventing him/her from doing so > would be the fact that they wouldn't be able to send and receive Word and > Excel spreadsheets. StarOffice got rid of that barrier, then created another > one that OpenOffice took down again. I think the biggest barrier was "It's not Windows, and I pay for Windows anyway, when I buy the machine". I think that's still the barrier, in fact. Draconian and repetitive licensing, so now it's nearly impossible to own the software outright, is a factor in favor of non-Windows solutions. On the other hand, can you really ever own GPL'ed software outright, either? Well, no, but you can limit the number of times you pay for it. If the licensing model that Microsoft want ("software leasing") ends up becoming the standard, then it's not going to be possible to, for example, buy a computer with software installed, and then amortize your total costs over the (currently allowed) three years. The costs go up. When cost accounting is forced to change, then you will see attitudes change... that is, if the software is there... there's not a "QuickBooks" for non-Windows systems, let along a MAS-90. > > What kind of idiot would create a word processor that required > > documentation, without some overriding business/systems need for > > a need for someone to provide it? What is so incredibly hard > > about merely the *idea* of word processing, such that this > > should be necessary? > > It's a change of contextual thinking as far as the user is concerned. That's > why stories of secretaries putting Tippex all over their screen exist. Word > processors are yesterday's news these days, but back then, the idea of a > Word processor or a spreadsheet and how it operated were alien concepts. "Cut-and-paste" was a well known phenomenon before the computer; that's why we call that operation on a computer "cut-and-paste" today. Most software operates by analogy, not allegory: people generally have no problems translating: it's what people do; it's what human beings are good at, above all else. > Even now I know of accountants who have been working in small villages with > paper based systems that don't understand that a spreadsheet *automatically > does the maths*. When I have explained it, they've sat there in awe at how > easy fiscal modelling becomes, never mind book-keeping. That's the point > they become excited. Once that mental jump is made, it's easy. Making the > jump though... I think the parables of "Whiteout" ("Tippex") on the computer screen, and the accountant who doesn't understand simplistic spreadsheet operations are just that, parables: "Be like Gallant, not like Goofus". They are designed to teach. What I *have* seen be hard to grasp is the concept of "iteration", and, most particularly, the concept of "conditional termination". It's not that these are really hard concepts to put across, it's that the tools think about these issues like programmers. For example, if I have an IRR (Internal Rate of Return) function, which I want to apply on a monthly basis, I want it to stop applying it to new cells to the right of the spreadsheet when the balance in the previous cell goes to zero -- no mor payments needed. To specify this in spreadsheet terms requires a complex formula, which include both a value comparison and a value substitution, with a special case value comparison for the first value that causes the principal to go negative. There is no such thing as "until balance is zero", and there is no automatic concept of "payment balances are definitionally prohibited from becoming negative". When you ask someone to enter a "formula" which is actually a complex loop with two branching conditionals, you are asking too much of the end user: you are asking them to think like programmers, not like accountants. > > In other words, they are able to successfully defend their > > existing market by way of increased complexity, and the inability of > > Open Source equivalents to manage complexity. We see this in the use > > of "embrace and extend" tactics, and in the pushing of increasingly > > (and technically unjustifiably) complex standards through the public > > standards processes. > > XML being one of those, IMHO. Yes. The lack of standards requirements for the contents of XML documents -- the lack of explicit limits on extension -- make XML file formats an easy thing to manipulate this way. > MS has been good at this for a while. They're cleverer than perhaps > they give themselves credit for. I doubt it. Intent is the easier explanation, for elegant systems. > If it wasn't for that damned calendaring thing they came up with, > Exchange wouldn't be in too many SMEs these days. This isn't about > complexity though, it's about functionality. It goes back to the MS > Program Managers understanding what a user would like, and getting > it into the product. Nobody does that in the Open source world > outside of their own organisation. Even when the need is clearly > identified - "we want shared calendars like in Outlook" - the > complexity of producing an identical product THEN becomes overwhelming, so > they produce something inferior based around a webmail package. This is a > flaw in the process, it's virtually impossible to fix. I really disagree with this. People wanted calendaring, and they wanted certain features associated with calendaring. Building it into OutLook was actually a negative thing for most people, given the lack of automatic triggers and other features that can't come from a protocol requiring active participation. By building it into OutLook, they introduced a number of synchornization and a number of logistical problems, which could not be easily overcome. If you look at a program that does *only* calendaring, like ON Technologies' "Meeting Maker", in comparison, these deficiencies become really obvious; for example, you have to explicitly check for new mail for your schedule to be updated, and even if you do this at defined intervals, the operation is not something that occurs within a reasonable human factors timeout. Likewise, a resource such as a meeting location, which does not have an email address of it's own, is a second class participant: you can't "invite conference room 2", except by proxy, so resource conflict resolution becomes very difficult. Netscape calendar screwed the pooch in almost exactly the same way, by leaving out notification triggers -- a consequence of being based on LDAP, rather than something like LTAP. The inferior webmail packages are more a sympton of "web services fever", where people believe that they can replace real applications with things that live on a web server somewhere. It's why the web services industry never really took off. Microsoft using email for the same thing has the same problems; even if you proxy via an Exchange server, your back-propagation feedback delay is too large for interactive use. > Don't get me started on ESR. That's a whole new discussion. Cathedral and > Bazaar did more damage to OSS than pretty much anything else I can think of > right now. Good intentions, but the model is terrible. As for sourceforge, > it's not a failure, it's just not very efficient. That is to say, there is a > better model for what they want to acheive, the difference is, they've > actually done it and nobody else has. The main problem with Source Forge comes down to not forcing the code to exist and (mostly) work first. The secondary problem with Source Forge is not one of model, it's one of cookie-cutter mentality on community. This gets back to margin: the feedback loops can never be tightened up enough to cost control the process to below the available margin for participation. A third problem is the amount of visible failures that result from the first two, but that's a secondary effect, even if it feeds the general perception: if you want a project to fail, take it to Source Forge. I don't think this can be cast in terms of efficiency: it's a gateing issue, more than anything, combined with suppression of the most obvious negative feedback into the overall system. Short of "not permitting failing projects", there's very little that they could do to suppress discussions like this one, in which they are cast as negative examples. > > Yet Mozilla *did* screw itself, > > and BSD-based Open Source projects all waited for the trigger of 386BSD > > and the working code it provided. > > Somebody (let's not get into the argument) somewhere, one day sat down and > wrote the beginnings of what eventually became Unix. They did not have > existing code, just ideas. They were researchers, and they were being paid to pursue something; they "found" UNIX along that path. That's very different than sitting down and incrementally moving some large stones around, only to have St. Paul's Cathedral appear 200 years later. There is a difference between enabling infrastructure and things built on top of it. Do roads exist because of monuments, or do monuments exist because of roads? > If you're saying all software must be evolutionary, then I > disagree. It's easier for software to evolve over multiple > iterations and restarts to get to the ideal system than it is to > sit around and design perfection and then go for implementing the > "perfect" system but that does not mean all software must be > evolutionary. I have a great deal of personal disdain for the idea that there is always a path from one equilibrium point to another. Or in other words, I don't believe in evolving software, and I don't believe in "bit rot". Sometimes, "you can't get there from here". This is like the idea that you can start out with a hole in the ground, go from there to a mud hut, from there to a thatched cottage, then to wood hoses, then to brick, then to brownstones, and from there... St. Paul's Cathedral. It doesn't happen that way, it *can't* happen that way. Great edifices do not occur as a result of evolution. > > The problem is the nature of the people involved in volunteer projects. > > Here we go... > > > Instead, your pool of volunteers is made up of people who like to > > tinker, and are not satisfied with the way things are, but those > > people generally have no great leadership skills or vision of a > > future that they are then prepared to work hard at making real. > > That's a little harsh. It's true that many developers would rather implement > things their own way rather than buy in existing products or use existing > code that isn't quite perfect. Particularly if they know it's easy, but > slightly fun and can go on the CV. Forget code, people reinvent "quicksort" and other simple algorithms, because they can't be bothered to learn history before they start tinkering. It's not a matter of "not reusing code", they don't even "reuse ideas". > > In a lot of ways, Jeff Raskin is right, and still no one is listening. > > In two of your examples of products that you think should/will be > > written, you yourself fell into this trap of cloning from bad gene > > stock. > > Agreed. But that's because they work. They work very, very well. If there > was a better way of doing what they do, I wish I could think of what it was. > I'd probably not OSS it though, because I'd want to make some cash. :-) 8-). The answer lies, I think, at the point you have to interrupt your work-flow, and move one of your hands over to the mouse, in order to get something done. > > At a former employer, there was an engineer who believed in this > > philosophy so completely, they wanted everyone to accept Steve > > McConnell as their personal saviour. An excellent engineer, but > > they could not understand my reluctance to join their religion, > > because they saw everything in terms of process: for them, the > > process *was* the product, and any business was just a side effect. > > It was very much like being back at USL. > > The process is important, but then my degree is Software Engineering, and > I'm currently a manager who has little to do with code production. My view > is probably skewed. The important thing is that the process is supposed to > be lightweight and non-intrusive. The requirements cpature process is > important though, and if you can adopt Extreme programming, or at least > aspects of it, then you can through process increase the quality of your > product. The funny thing about the management perspective is that what you are really interested in is not producing a great product. It's more about resource levelling and controlling risk. As long as you can meet schedule, then your rewards are assured. From a games theoretic standpoint, most management systems are set up incorrectly to encourage the emergent behaviours that companies claim they want. For example, in IBM, your pay is comprised of two parts: your immediate pay, and your variable pay (what used to be called "bonus"). This value is controlled by a scaling factor that is under the control of your immediate manager; after that, the rest of it is out of your hands. The scaling factor is a function of a number that comes out of your performance review. In the old days, all managers and employees had the same dependency relationship between hierarchical performance and the amount of variable pay that would be available. This hierarchical performance was: group, division, company, and for the sake of argument, let's say it was [60%,30%,10%]. Then someone who did not understand games theory (or beleived everyone who knew math was in management... 8-)) decided that there needed to be more cooperation between divisions, and that this was a "grass roots" issue, rather than a hierarchical "shit rolls down hill" issue. So they changes the relative weighting between management and line employees, such that employees were less dependent on group and division performance, and more dependent on overall company performance. The managers, they left the same. The problem is that the main factor under the control of a line employee is their manager's perception of them. Therefore, the behaviour that they wanted to encourage was not encouraged, as a simple matter of math. What they should have done instead is the opposite: make the management variable pay less depenent on division performance, and more dependent on group and overall company performance. This would have incented the behaviour they said they want, since the line employees had much less control over the overall profitability of the company, and instead controlled only their ability to please their immediate supervisor(s). The reason for this little digression is that it demonstrates that people do that which rewards them, not that which they are told is important. > > "Why, if product developement is > > changed to a fully user and quality-centric model, would people > > continue to buy new versions of these products?". > > User requirements change in the same way as everything else. People don't > buy new clothes, furniture and consumer electronics on a regular basis > because they don't have something that was not user and quality-centric when > it was designed. It's just that the requirements change. With clothing, this > happens on a seasonal basis for some people. My old TV was fine, so why did > I buy a 32" widescreen? My VCR was fine, so why a DVD? Functional upgrades? > Change in perception of quality? Fashion? All these and more play into it. > Software is no different. A better question to ask is not "Why replace A with B?", but "Why replace A with new A?". There are very few reasons, unless you are a habitual consumer, to replace your old VCR with a new VCR before the old VCR breaks. You may claim that you have replaced your VCR with a DVD, but did you? Did you get rid of all your old media, or convert it to the new format, or did you buy a DVD *as well* as a VCR? Frankly, and I've said this before, I would be tempted to get rid of my VCR, *if* the companies wanting me to switch over to pure DVD use were to make the value proposition worthwhile: give me credit for my VHS investment, in converting it to a DVD investment, instead. How many people do you know who had large VHS collections before DVD, now have large DVD collections, and no VHS? If there are any people you know who meet this description, they are people with well above average disposable incomes. Personally, I know a lot of people with above average disposable incomes, and not one of them has converted their entire VHS collection. > > The value proposition for the mainstream is whether or not they can > > hire a temp for a week in accounting, and that person will be able > > to use the tools in place, without needing training. > > The transition between WordPerfect and Word happened. The transition away > from Word can happen. The issue though is whether people can get done what > they need to, and if there are other advantages. At the moment, advocates > are harming OSS by telling everybody that OSS has a lower TCO which is bull, > but not pointing out the real advantages. Unfortunately, those advantages > can be swallowed up by MS or anybody else on the commercial side the moment > they wake up and smell the coffee. I was there for the transition from WordPerfect to Word. It happened because WordPerfect dropped free support, and the amount of support required by Word was less than the amount of support required by WordPerfect, and the cost of support -- including the amortized per seat cost -- was overall higher for WordPerfect than for Word. And it happened because Microsoft started "giving away" Word with new computer purchases, so you were paying the up front cost for Word with each new computer. And why did Word Perfect drop free support? Because they wanted to sell the company to another company, whose valuation on acquisitions was a simple formula based on profit-per-employee, with no lag factor to account for quarter-to-quarter hiring and firing. The whole "OSS TCO" argument is BS, that's true. But so is the argument that Microsoft has to look over its shoulder and worry about someone displacing a bundled product. > > Most people end up conforming their views to the community, rather > > than selecting a community on that basis, in my experience. 8-). > > You evidently didn't spend much time as a teenager then. :-) Teenagers are brillinat examples of group conformance: "I want to be different, just like everyone else!". 8-). What group you join is dictated primarily by who tolerates your presence best. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 20 4:36: 6 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2967D37B401 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 04:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from murdoch.servitor.co.uk (murdoch.servitor.co.uk [217.151.99.80]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B511D43F93 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 04:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@iconoplex.co.uk) Received: from mmu-firewall.mmu.ac.uk ([149.170.101.200] helo=miter96pq2w1fz) by murdoch.servitor.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.33 #3) id 18lpvj-0007oy-00; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:35:59 +0000 From: "Paul Robinson" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:35:58 -0000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3E544D66.4065A126@mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Everything I would say in response about the OS issues is summed up here: http://osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2857&page=all I think this basically agrees with a lot of what you're saying, but you're mixing into the argument issues around programmer motivation that they aren't discussing here. I agree with pretty much everything you said on that. The issues around evolving code can be kind of summed up (or at least, it's a starting point), here: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/2/13/9212/42643 And I think both of these sum up what I would say in response to a lot of what you said, in condensed form. To be honest Terry, I know how I would respond in full but i think the best format for all that would be a book, and we don't have time. :-) In summary, I think we're in agreement on most of this. Except this: > Teenagers are brillinat examples of group conformance: "I want to > be different, just like everyone else!". 8-). What group you join > is dictated primarily by who tolerates your presence best. What group you join is dictated by who *you* tolerate the presence of best. What group you *remain in* is dictated secondarily by who tolerates your presence best, but primarily who you think you can tolerate the best on a long term basis. Sometimes people end up warping your values to fit in to remain in the group (nobody who starts to hang around with crack heads think they will become one themselves, unfortunately living in Manchester, UK, I can attest they are nearly always wrong), but ultimately you will stay in those groups who you prefer to hang around with. Put it this way, how many people do you know who were thrown out of the Boy Scouts for being too old but who wanted to stay in the Boy Scouts? How many left because they didn't want to do that stuff any more? Same thing. If you want to bring this back into a BSD-related thread, Theo didn't start OpenBSD because he had no choice: he couldn't tolerate NetBSD core anymore, and they couldn't tolerate him. Now, if you want to be a commiter to OpenBSD you have to understand the fact that Theo is in charge. If you can tolerate that, you'll be fine. If you can't, chances are you'll head over to Net- or Free- instead. If Free- throw you out, you know you can still hang around. It's not about what the group tolerates. It's what you tolerate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 20 8:15:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC6837B401 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net (stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.188]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910DB43FB1 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:15:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0094.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.179.192.94] helo=mindspring.com) by stork.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18ltM3-0007k8-00; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:15:24 -0800 Message-ID: <3E54FEB1.377B0103@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:13:37 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Robinson Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a479b6e6216e8f7d23143bb83bc97d42dd93caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Robinson wrote: > > Teenagers are brillinat examples of group conformance: "I want to > > be different, just like everyone else!". 8-). What group you join > > is dictated primarily by who tolerates your presence best. > > What group you join is dictated by who *you* tolerate the presence of best. > What group you *remain in* is dictated secondarily by who tolerates your > presence best, but primarily who you think you can tolerate the best on a > long term basis. > > Sometimes people end up warping your values to fit in to remain in the group > (nobody who starts to hang around with crack heads think they will become > one themselves, unfortunately living in Manchester, UK, I can attest they > are nearly always wrong), but ultimately you will stay in those groups who > you prefer to hang around with. Put it this way, how many people do you know > who were thrown out of the Boy Scouts for being too old but who wanted to > stay in the Boy Scouts? How many left because they didn't want to do that > stuff any more? Same thing. I was personally thrown out of Boy Scouts for being Catholic instead of Mormon; does that count? Primates are social animals; the majority of them will tolerate nearly anything to be accepted as part of a group. > If you want to bring this back into a BSD-related thread, Theo didn't start > OpenBSD because he had no choice: he couldn't tolerate NetBSD core anymore, > and they couldn't tolerate him. Now, if you want to be a commiter to OpenBSD > you have to understand the fact that Theo is in charge. If you can tolerate > that, you'll be fine. If you can't, chances are you'll head over to Net- or > Free- instead. If Free- throw you out, you know you can still hang around. > It's not about what the group tolerates. It's what you tolerate. Tolerance of people by the group is the most important factor here. One of the most common anti-BSD claims is "BSD is elitest" -- it being a complaint about group tolerance of individuals, rather than individual tolerance of the group. OpenBSD is a really poor example. I can explain the NetBSD/OpenBSD split very easily in terms of overdriving a reward margin; it's a deceptively simple set of mathematics. It was very much an individual decision by Theo, with almost all the trigger actions being in his hands, at the time. I think in terms of "group splits", you really have to think in a different context: it is not about group acceptance or tolerance, it's about control, direction, margin, and rate. If you measure it in these factors, it makes it a lot easier to understand, and it accounts for more than just a simplistic model of "NetBSD/OpenBSD", it also accounts for "386BSD/NetBSD" and "386BSD/FreeBSD" (this last is mre properly "FreeBSD/386BSD"). It's all about the volatility introduced by strange attractors. For example, the recent denouements in the FreeBSD camp can be traced back to driving forces in the mailing lists -- intentional marginal pressure to incite stress forces, by people with interests counter to those of the project. I wouldn't claim that they were commercially motivated without verifiable evidence, but let's say "I am suspicious" at this point, and leave it there for now. The problem with a broader understanding of a class of systems is a broader understanding of what it takes to preturb them from any given equalibrium state. The act itself can be either benevolent or malevolent, depending on the perpetrator. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 20 16: 2:49 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD3337B401 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9835F43F85 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:02:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h1L02HK6052271 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 01:02:17 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 01:02:36 +0100 Message-ID: <00bb01c2d93c$8ad70e10$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just for s&g, I can the COPYRIGHT file thru the jive filter: # $FreeBSD: src/COPYRIGHT,v 1.4 1999/09/05 21:33:47 obrien Exp $ # @(#)COPYRIGHT 8.2 (Berkeley) 3/21/94 All uh de documentashun and software included in de 4.4BSD and 4.4BSD-Lite Releases be copyrighted by De Regents uh de University uh Califo'nia. Sheeeiit. Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 De Regents uh de University uh Califo'nia. Sheeeiit. All rights reserved. Redistribushun and use in source and binary fo'ms, wid o' widout modificashun, are puh'mitted provided dat da damn followin' condishuns are met, dig dis: 1. Redistribushuns uh source code must retain de above copyright notice, dis list uh condishuns and da damn followin' disclaimer. Ah be baaad... 2. Redistribushuns in binary fo'm must reproduce da damn above copyright notice, dis list uh condishuns and da damn followin' disclaima' in de documentashun and/o' oda' materials provided wid de distribushun. 3. All advertisin' materials menshunin' features o' use uh dis software must display de followin' acknowledgement, dig dis: Dis product includes software developed by de University of Califo'nia, Berkeley and its contributo's. 4. Neida' de dojigger uh de University no' de dojiggers uh its contributo's may be used t'endo'se o' promote products derived fum dis software widout specific prio' written puh'mission. 'S coo', bro. THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPSHUN) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. De Institute uh Electrical and Electronics Engineers and da damn American Nashunal Standards Committee X3, on Info'mashun Processin' Systems gots' given us puh'mission t'reprint po'shuns uh deir documentashun. In de followin' statement, de phrase ``dis text'' refers t'po'shuns of de system documentashun. Po'shuns uh dis text are reprinted and reproduced in electronic fo'm in de second BSD Netwo'kin' Software Release, fum IEEE Std 1003.1-1988, IEEE Standard Po'table Opuh'tin' System Interface fo' Computa' Environments (POSIX), copyright C 1988 by de Institute uh Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. In de event uh any discrepancy between dese versions and da damn o'iginal IEEE Standard, de o'iginal IEEE Standard be de referee document. In de followin' statement, de phrase ``Dis material'' refers t'po'shuns of de system documentashun. Dis material be reproduced wid puh'mission fum American Nashunal Standards Committee X3, on Info'mashun Processin' Systems. Computa' and Business Equipment Manufacturers Associashun (CBEMA), 311 First St., NW, Suite 500, Washin'ton, DC 20001-2178. De developmental wo'k of Programmin' Language C wuz completed by de X3J11 Technical Committee. What it is, Mama! De views and conclusions contained in de software and documentashun are dose uh de audo's and should not be interpreted as representin' official policies, eida' 'spressed o' implied, uh de Regents uh de University of Califo'nia. Sheeeiit. NOTE: De copyright uh UC Berkeley's Berkeley Software Distribushun ("BSD") source gots'ta been updated. De copyright addendum may be found at ftp, dig dis://ftp.cs.berkeley. Slap mah fro!edu/pub/4bsd/README.Impt.License. What it is, Mama! Change and is included below. July 22, 1999 To All Licensees, Distributo's uh Any Version uh BSD: As ya' know, certain uh de Berkeley Software Distribushun ("BSD") source code stashs require dat furda' distribushuns uh products containin' all o' po'shuns uh de software, acknowledge widin deir advertisin' materials dat such products contain software developed by UC Berkeley and its contributo's. Specifically, de provision eyeballs, dig dis: " * 3. All advertisin' materials menshunin' features o' use uh dis software * must display de followin' acknowledgement, dig dis: * Dis product includes software developed by de University of * Califo'nia, Berkeley and its contributo's." Effective immediately, licensees and distributo's are no longa' required to include da damn acknowledgement widin advertisin' materials. Acco'din'ly, de fo'egoin' paragraph uh dose BSD Unix stashs containin' it be hereby deleted in its entirety. Slap mah fro! William Hoskins Directo', Office uh Technology Licensin' University uh Califo'nia, Berkeley To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 20 16:15:19 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2EF937B401 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from digiflux.org (43.Red-80-59-151.pooles.rima-tde.net [80.59.151.43]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B2D43F85 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:15:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olivas@digiflux.org) Received: from sentinel (sniffy [10.0.0.150]) (authenticated bits=0) by digiflux.org (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h1L0EdK6052357 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 01:14:40 +0100 (CET) From: "Stacy Olivas" To: Subject: RE: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 01:14:58 +0100 Message-ID: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <00bb01c2d93c$8ad70e10$0502000a@sentinel> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Just for s&g, I can the COPYRIGHT file thru the jive > filter: Try running the GPL thru it.. It's meaning becomes all the more clearer. ;) (Sorry, I was totally bored and couldn't sleep..) GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE Version 2, June 1991 Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundashun, Inc. 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA Everyone be puh'mitted t'copy and distribute verbatim copies uh dis license document, but changin' it be not allowed. Preamble De licenses fo' most software are designed t'take away yo' freedom t'share and change it. By contrast, de GNU General Public License be intended t'guarantee yo' freedom t'share and change free software--to make sho' nuff de software be free fo' all its users. Dis General Public License applies t'most uh de Free Software Foundashun's software and t'any oda' honky code whose audo's commit to usin' it. (Some oda' Free Software Foundashun software be covered by de GNU Library General Public License instead.) You's kin apply it to yo' honky codes, too. When we speak uh free software, we are referrin' t'freedom, not price. What it is, Mama! Our General Public Licenses are designed t'make sho' nuff dat ya' gots' de freedom t'distribute copies uh free software (and charge fo' dis service if ya' wish), dat ya' receive source code o' kin git it if ya' wants' it, dat ya' kin change da damn software o' use pieces uh it in new free honky codes; and dat ya' know ya' kin do dese wahtahmelluns. To protect yo' rights, we need t'make restricshuns dat fo'bid anyone t'deny ya' dese rights o' t'ax' ya' t'surrenda' de rights. Dese restricshuns translate t'certain responsibilities fo' ya' if ya' distribute copies uh de software, o' if ya' modify it. Fo' 'esample, if ya' distribute copies uh such some honky code, wheder gratis o' fo' some fee, ya' must give da damn recipients all de rights dat ya' gots'. You's must make sho' nuff dat dey, too, receive o' kin git de source code. What it is, Mama! And ya' must show dem dese terms so's dey know deir rights. We protect yo' rights wid two steps, dig dis: (1) copyright da damn software, and (2) offa' ya' dis license which gives ya' legal puh'mission t'copy, distribute and/o' modify de software. What it is, Mama! Also, fo' each audo''s protecshun and ours, we wanna make certain dat everyone dig its dat dere be no warranty fo' dis free software. What it is, Mama! If de software be modified by someone else and passed on, we wants' its recipients t'know dat whut dey gots' be not da damn o'iginal, so dat any problems introduced by oders gots'ta not reflect on de o'iginal audo's' reputashuns. Finally, any free honky code be dreatened constantly by software patents. We wish t'avoid da damn danga' dat redistributo's uh a free honky code gots'ta individually obtain patent licenses, in effect makin' de honky code proprietary. Slap mah fro! To prevent dis, we gots' made it clear dat any patent must be licensed fo' everyone's free use o' not licensed at all. De precise terms and condishuns fo' copyin', distribushun and modificashun follow. GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE TERMS AND CONDISHUNS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUSHUN AND MODIFICASHUN 0. Dis License applies t'any honky code o' oda' wo'k which contains a notice placed by de copyright holda' sayin' it may be distributed unda' de terms uh dis General Public License. What it is, Mama! De "Program", below, refers t'any such honky code o' wo'k, and some "wo'k based on de Program" means eida' de Program o' any derivative wo'k unda' copyright law, dig dis: dat be to say, some wo'k containin' de Program o' some po'shun uh it, eida' verbatim o' wid modificashuns and/o' translated into anoder language. What it is, Mama! (Hereinafter, translashun be included widout limitashun in de term "modificashun".) Each licensee be addressed as "ya'". Activities oda' dan copyin', distribushun and modificashun aint covered by dis License; dey are outside its scope. What it is, Mama! De act of runnin' de Program be not restricted, and da damn output fum de Program is covered only if its contents constitute some wo'k based on de Program (independent uh havin' been made by runnin' de Program). Wheda' dat be true depends on whut de Program duz. 1. You's may copy and distribute verbatim copies uh de Program's source code as ya' receive it, in any medium, provided dat ya' conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy some appropriate copyright notice and disclaima' of warranty; keep intact all de notices dat refa' to dis License and t'de absence uh any warranty; and give any oda' recipients uh de Program some copy uh dis License along wid de Program. 'S coo', bro. You's may charge some fee fo' de physical act uh transferrin' some copy, and ya' may at yo' opshun offa' warranty protecshun in 'shange fo' some fee. What it is, Mama! 2. You's may modify yo' copy o' copies uh de Program o' any po'shun of it, dus fo'min' some wo'k based on de Program, and copy and distribute such modificashuns o' wo'k unda' de terms uh Secshun 1 above, provided dat ya' also meet all uh dese condishuns, dig dis: a) You's must cause da damn modified stashs t'carry prominent notices statin' dat ya' changed da damn stashs and da damn date uh any change. What it is, Mama! b) You's must cause any wo'k dat ya' distribute o' publish, dat in whole o' in part contains o' be derived fum de Program o' any part dereof, t'be licensed as some whole at no charge t'all dird parties unda' de terms uh dis License. What it is, Mama! c) If de modified honky code no'mally eyeballs commands interactively when run, ya' must cause it, when started runnin' fo' such interactive use in de most o'dinary way, t'print o' display an announcement includin' some appropriate copyright notice and a notice dat dere be no warranty (o' else, sayin' dat ya' provide some warranty) and dat users may redistribute da damn honky code under dese condishuns, and tellin' de usa' how t'view some copy uh dis License. What it is, Mama! (Excepshun: if de Program itself be interactive but duz not no'mally print such some announcement, yo' wo'k based on de Program be not required t'print some announcement.) Dese requirements apply t'de modified wo'k as some whole. What it is, Mama! If identifiable secshuns uh dat wo'k aint derived fum de Program, and kin be reasonably considered independent and separate wo'ks in demselves, den dis License, and its terms, do not apply t'dose secshuns when ya' distribute dem as separate wo'ks. But when ya' distribute da damn same secshuns as part uh a whole which be some wo'k based on de Program, de distribushun uh de whole must be on de terms of dis License, whose puh'missions fo' oda' licensees 'estend t'de entire whole, and dus t'each and every part regardless uh who wrote it. Dus, it be not da damn intent uh dis secshun t'claim rights o' contest yo' rights t'wo'k written entirely by ya'; rader, de intent be to exercise da damn right t'control de distribushun uh derivative o' collective wo'ks based on de Program. 'S coo', bro. In addishun, mere aggregashun uh anoda' wo'k not based on de Program wid de Program (o' wid some wo'k based on de Program) on some volume of a sto'age o' distribushun medium duz not brin' de oda' wo'k under de scope uh dis License. What it is, Mama! 3. You's may copy and distribute da damn Program (o' some wo'k based on it, unda' Secshun 2) in object code o' 'esecutable fo'm unda' de terms of Secshuns 1 and 2 above provided dat ya' also do one uh de followin': a) Accompany it wid de complete co'respondin' machine-readable source code, which must be distributed unda' de terms uh Secshuns 1 and 2 above on some medium customarily used fo' software interchange; o', b) Accompany it wid some written offer, valid fo' at least dree years, t'give any dird party, fo' some charge no mo'e dan yo' cost uh physically puh'fo'min' source distribushun, some complete machine-readable copy uh de co'respondin' source code, t'be distributed unda' de terms uh Secshuns 1 and 2 above on some medium customarily used fo' software interchange; o', c) Accompany it wid de info'mashun ya' received as t'de offer t'distribute co'respondin' source code. What it is, Mama! (Dis alternative is allowed only fo' noncommercial distribushun and only if ya' received da damn honky code in object code o' 'esecutable fo'm wid such some offer, in acco'd wid Subsecshun b above. What it is, Mama!) De source code fo' some wo'k means de preferred fo'm uh de wo'k fo' makin' modificashuns t'it. Fo' some executable wo'k, complete source code means all de source code fo' all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definishun stashs, plus de scripts used to control compilashun and installashun uh de 'esecutable. What it is, Mama! However, as a special 'sepshun, de source code distributed need not include anydin' dat be no'mally distributed (in eida' source o' binary fo'm) wid de majo' components (compiler, kernel, and so's on) uh de opuh'tin' system on which de 'esecutable runs, unless dat component itself accompanies de 'esecutable. What it is, Mama! If distribushun uh executable o' object code be made by offerin' access t'copy fum some designated place, den offerin' equivalent access t'copy de source code fum de same place counts as distribushun uh de source code, even dough dird parties aint compelled t'copy de source along wid de object code. What it is, Mama! 4. You's may not copy, modify, sublicense, o' distribute da damn Program except as 'espressly provided unda' dis License. What it is, Mama! Any attempt oderwise t'copy, modify, sublicense o' distribute da damn Program is void, and gots'ta automatically terminate yo' rights unda' dis License. What it is, Mama! However, parties who gots' received copies, o' rights, fum ya' under dis License gots'ta not gots' deir licenses terminated so's long as such parties remain in full compliance. What it is, Mama! 5. You's aint required t'accept dis License, since ya' gots' not signed it. However, nodin' else grants ya' puh'mission t'modify o' distribute da damn Program o' its derivative wo'ks. Dese acshuns are prohibited by law if ya' do not accept dis License. What it is, Mama! Derefo'e, by modifyin' o' distributin' de Program (o' any wo'k based on de Program), ya' indicate yo' acceptance uh dis License t'do so, and all its terms and condishuns fo' copyin', distributin' o' modifyin' de Program o' wo'ks based on it. 6. Each time ya' redistribute da damn Program (o' any wo'k based on de Program), de recipient automatically receives some license fum de o'iginal licenso' t'copy, distribute o' modify de Program subject to dese terms and condishuns. You's may not impose any furder restricshuns on de recipients' 'esercise uh de rights granted herein. 'S coo', bro. You's aint responsible fo' enfo'cin' compliance by dird parties to dis License. What it is, Mama! 7. If, as some consequence uh a court judgment o' allegashun uh patent infrin'ement o' fo' any oda' reason (not limited t'patent issues), condishuns are imposed on ya' (wheda' by court o'der, agreement o' oderwise) dat contradict da damn condishuns uh dis License, dey do not excuse ya' fum de condishuns uh dis License. What it is, Mama! If ya' kinnot distribute so's as t'satisfy simultaneously yo' obligashuns unda' dis License and any oda' puh'tinent obligashuns, den as some consequence ya' may not distribute da damn Program at all. Fo' 'esample, if some patent license would not puh'mit royalty-free redistribushun uh de Program by all dose who receive copies directly o' indirectly drough ya', den de only way ya' could satisfy bod it and dis License would be to refrain entirely fum distribushun uh de Program. 'S coo', bro. If any po'shun uh dis secshun be held invalid o' unenfo'ceable under any particular circumstance, de balance uh de secshun be intended to apply and da damn secshun as some whole be intended t'apply in oder circumstances. It be not da damn purpose uh dis secshun t'induce ya' t'infrin'e any patents o' oda' propuh'ty right claims o' t'contest validity uh any such claims; dis secshun gots'ta de sole purpose uh protectin' de integrity uh de free software distribushun system, which is implemented by public license practices. Many sucka's gots' made generous contribushuns t'de wide range uh software distributed drough dat system in reliance on consistent applicashun uh dat system; it be up t'de audo'/dono' t'decide if he o' she be willin' to distribute software drough any oda' system and some licensee kinnot impose dat choice. What it is, Mama! Dis secshun be intended t'make do'oughly clear whut be believed to be some consequence uh de rest uh dis License. What it is, Mama! 8. If de distribushun and/o' use uh de Program be restricted in certain countries eida' by patents o' by copyrighted interfaces, de o'iginal copyright holda' who places de Program unda' dis License may add some 'splicit geographical distribushun limitashun 'sludin' dose countries, so's dat distribushun be puh'mitted only in o' among countries not dus 'sluded. In such case, dis License inco'po'ates de limitashun as if written in de body uh dis License. What it is, Mama! 9. De Free Software Foundashun may publish revised and/o' new versions of de General Public License fum time t'time. What it is, Mama! Such new versions will be similar in spirit t'de present version, but may diffa' in detail to address new problems o' concerns. Each version be given some distin'uishin' version number. Ah be baaad... If de Program specifies some version numba' of dis License which applies t'it and "any lata' version", ya' gots' de opshun uh followin' de terms and condishuns eida' of dat version o' uh any lata' version published by de Free Software Foundashun. If de Program duz not specify some version numba' of dis License, ya' may choose any version eva' published by de Free Software Foundashun. 10. If ya' wish t'inco'po'ate parts uh de Program into oda' free honky codes whose distribushun condishuns are different, scribble t'de audo' to ax' fo' puh'mission. 'S coo', bro. Fo' software which be copyrighted by de Free Software Foundashun, scribble t'de Free Software Foundashun; we sometimes make 'sepshuns fo' dis. Our decision gots'ta be guided by de two goals of preservin' de free status uh all derivatives uh our free software and of promotin' de sharin' and reuse uh software generally. Slap mah fro! NO WARRANTY 11. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECSHUN. 12. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. END OF TERMS AND CONDISHUNS How t'Apply Dese Terms t'Yo' New Programs If ya' develop some new honky code, and ya' wants' it t'be uh de greatest possible use t'de public, de best way t'achieve dis be to make it free software which everyone kin redistribute and change unda' dese terms. To do so, attach de followin' notices t'de honky code. It be safest to attach dem t'de start uh each source stash t'most effectively convey de 'slusion uh warranty; and each stash should gots' at least de "copyright" line and some pointa' to where da damn full notice be found. Copyright (C) 19yy Dis honky code be free software; ya' kin redistribute it and/o' modify it unda' de terms uh de GNU General Public License as published by de Free Software Foundashun; eida' version 2 uh de License, o' (at yo' opshun) any lata' version. 'S coo', bro. Dis honky code be distributed in de hope dat it gots'ta be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; widout even de implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY o' FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See de GNU General Public License fo' mo'e details. You's should gots' received some copy uh de GNU General Public License along wid dis honky code; if not, scribble t'de Free Software Foundashun, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA Also add info'mashun on how t'contact ya' by electronic and sheet mail. If de honky code be interactive, make it output some sho't notice likes dis when it starts in some interactive mode, dig dis: Gnomovision version 69, Copyright (C) 19yy dojigger uh audo' Gnomovision comes wid ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; fo' details type `show w'. Dis be free software, and ya' are welcome t'redistribute it unda' certain condishuns; type `show c' fo' details. De hypodetical commands `show w' and `show c' should show de appropriate parts uh de General Public License. What it is, Mama! Of course, de commands ya' use may be called sump'n oda' dan `show w' and `show c'; dey could even be mouse-clicks o' menu items--whuteva' suits yo' honky code. You's should also git yo' employa' (if ya' wo'k as some honky codemer) o' yo' farm, if any, t'sign some "copyright disclaimer" fo' de honky code, if necessary. Slap mah fro! Here be some sample; alta' de dojiggers, dig dis: Yoyodyne, Inc., hereby disclaims all copyright interest in de honky code `Gnomovision' (which makes passes at compilers) written by James Hacker. Ah be baaad... , 1 April 1989 Ty Coon, President uh Vice Dis General Public License duz not puh'mit inco'po'atin' yo' honky code into proprietary honky codes. If yo' honky code be some subroutine library, ya' may consida' it mo'e useful t'puh'mit linkin' proprietary applicashuns wid de library. Slap mah fro! If dis be whut ya' wanna do, use da damn GNU Library General Public License instead uh dis License. What it is, Mama! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 20 18:21:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBAF537B401 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.97]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B581B43F75 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:21:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lomion@mac.com) Received: from asmtp01.mac.com (asmtp01-qfe3 [10.13.10.65]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h1L2LQJ4012254 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mac.com ([68.39.203.40]) by asmtp01.mac.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HAMZVP00.BFW; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:21:25 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:21:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Open source (was RE: Hi!Dear FreeBSD!) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: Paul Robinson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG To: Terry Lambert From: Larry Sica In-Reply-To: <3E54FEB1.377B0103@mindspring.com> Message-Id: <23316EDF-4543-11D7-9FFE-000393A335A2@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 11:13 AM, Terry Lambert wrote: > Paul Robinson wrote: >>> Teenagers are brillinat examples of group conformance: "I want to >>> be different, just like everyone else!". 8-). What group you join >>> is dictated primarily by who tolerates your presence best. >> >> What group you join is dictated by who *you* tolerate the presence of >> best. >> What group you *remain in* is dictated secondarily by who tolerates >> your >> presence best, but primarily who you think you can tolerate the best >> on a >> long term basis. >> >> Sometimes people end up warping your values to fit in to remain in >> the group >> (nobody who starts to hang around with crack heads think they will >> become >> one themselves, unfortunately living in Manchester, UK, I can attest >> they >> are nearly always wrong), but ultimately you will stay in those >> groups who >> you prefer to hang around with. Put it this way, how many people do >> you know >> who were thrown out of the Boy Scouts for being too old but who >> wanted to >> stay in the Boy Scouts? How many left because they didn't want to do >> that >> stuff any more? Same thing. > > I was personally thrown out of Boy Scouts for being Catholic instead > of Mormon; does that count? > heh, i was thrown out of cub scouts because i mouthed off to the scoutmaster. I never heard of them throwing someone out because of being catholic though. --Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 7:23:26 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B953037B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:23:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0197343FB1 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:23:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (061-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.61]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AEA1202FF; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:23:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3E564549.2DCD3E1F@emailrob.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:27:05 -0600 From: rob spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Stacy Olivas Subject: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stacy Olivas wrote: > > Just for s&g, I can the COPYRIGHT file thru the jive > > filter: > > Try running the GPL thru it.. It's meaning becomes all > the more clearer. ;) (Sorry, I was totally bored and couldn't > sleep..) as i look back on decisions i have made in my life, i sometimes find that they can only be explained by resorting to the phrase: "it seemed like a good idea at the time." my strongly libertarian bent compels me to state that if you want to circulate this sort of thing --privately-- among like-minded persons, then go ahead; SCOTUS-considered concepts like "inciting a panic" and "fighting words" notwithstanding. however, i question the appropriateness of posting this type of your humor [ fsdo humor ] on a public forum such as -chat. my concerns are several [ in no particular order of importance ]: a] the accusation "elitist" has been discussed extensively and has recently appeared in another topic. this one is bad enough; do we want any others? b] this now goes into the archives, where, imho, it takes on the characteristics of a bomb with a delayed action fuse. because the subject line includes "copyright", a person researching things like licensing, etc., may find this. this type of person usually has a legal mindset [ at least, partially ]. a fraction of this group of people are, what i call, "professional plaintiffs". they look for opportunities to be offended so that they can then play "lawsuit lottery". these people are not to be encouraged. c] related to [b], a person with decision-making authority may decide that prudence requires the removal of this entire thread from the archive. personally, i do not know if the precedent exists, but it is a dangerous one to set, even when the original reason is considered "good", which it usually is. precedents tend to be invoked. iirc, you are held in high regard by, at least, some on this list for other reasons, technical or organizational. i don't remember exactly, i will have to research this point. i could be wrong, but i don't think this enhances your CV. rob spellberg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 10:52:23 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0815E37B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ms3.quadtelecom.com (ms1.quadtelecom.com [66.45.116.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D6D743FBF for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:52:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from htabak@quadtelecom.com) Received: (qmail 7372 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2003 18:52:13 -0000 Received: from steelcityhosting.com (HELO quadtelecom.com) (66.45.116.139) by ms3.quadtelecom.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2003 18:52:13 -0000 Message-ID: <3E56754E.2010807@quadtelecom.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:51:58 -0500 From: Harry Tabak Organization: Quad Telecom, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo! References: <20030219022940.GC17256@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg, Pardon me for butting in. A narrow filter can protect you from Yahoo's bulk mail, and still pass mail from private yahoo subscribers and groups. If you notice, yahoo seems to have a naming convention for their mail servers based on the category of mail they carry. This allows you to fine tune your filter. For example, your bulk mail piece is from: "mailer33.bulk.scd.yahoo.com". Mail from Yahoo mail subscribers are from "web20201.mail.yahoo.com", etc. Mail from groups (lists) are from "n16.grp.scd.yahoo.com", etc. HotJobs.com uses "mx03.hj.scd.yahoo.com", etc. Therefore blocking "bulk.scd.yahoo.com" should do the trick and produce less collateral damage than blocking all of yahoo.com. Of course, this is just my observation, I don't have official information. Harry Tabak Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I've just received the following spam from Yahoo!, not for the first > time. I've complained in the past, and have had no response. So: I'm > blocking them. They're no longer the good guys in my eyes. > > If you are using Yahoo!, you will not be able to send mail to me. You > will be able to contact me if you put a yahoo.com address in the > Reply-To: header. > > Greg > > ----- Forwarded message from Yahoo!Careers and Seek ----- > > >>Return-Path: >>Delivered-To: grog@FreeBSD.org >>Received: from mailer33.bulk.scd.yahoo.com (mailer33.bulk.scd.yahoo.com [66.218.69.24]) >> by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F57151A2B >> for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2003 10:01:28 +1030 (CST) >>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 15:31:30 PST >>Message-ID: >>From: Yahoo!Careers and Seek >>X-Yahoo-MMID: vGRECArOjdrGmbU14hJPBht3FSjurfno03M- grog@FreeBSD.org >>X-Yahoo-MMO: bg2 >>X-Yahoo-Bounces: 1 >>To: grog@FreeBSD.org >>Subject: Win a Cruise with Yahoo! Careers >>Errors-To: yahoo_delivers_208569@reply.yahoo.com >>Reply-To: au-delivers@yahoo-inc.com >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>X-RocketSRV: allow=all >>Content-Type: multipart/alternative; >> boundary="==_MIME-Boundary-1_==" >>X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=5.0 >> tests=MAILTO_LINK,RAZOR2_CHECK,SPAM_PHRASE_03_05,SPAM_REDIRECTOR, >> SUPERLONG_LINE,WEB_BUGS >> version=2.41 >>X-Spam-Level: * >>Status: RO >>Content-Length: 9771 >>Lines: 146 >> >>Take a holiday, while we get to work! >> >>Register for Job Mail and you could be sailing free while we find you the perfect job. >> >>Find out More! http://dm.yahoo.com/dm/s/208/208569_4939_4.html >>*************************************************************************** >> >>Yahoo! Careers and SEEK Communications Ltd. >>=========================================================================== >>Need a new job? >>Relax. We'll take the effort out of your job search. Simply regiseter for Job Mail and opportunities will flow straight to your inbox as they become available. Which means you won't miss your perfect job no matter where you happen to cruise away to. >> >>Win Blissful Days and 7 nights on a cruise for 2. >>Register with Job Mail for your chance to win a 7 night crusise for 2 on Pacific Sky's Blissful Days Cruise. See Noumea and the Isle of Pines. Departs ex Sydney 1 August 2003. For details see Terms and Conditions. http://dm.yahoo.com/dm/s/208/208569_4939_1.html >>=========================================================================== >> >>Register NOW! http://dm.yahoo.com/dm/s/208/208569_4939_3.html >> >> >>************************************************************* >> >>Yahoo! tries to send you the most relevant offers based on >>your Yahoo! Account Information, interests, and what you use >>on Yahoo!. Yahoo! uses web beacons in HTML-based email, >>including in Yahoo! Delivers messages;To learn more about >>Yahoo!'s use of personal information please read our Privacy >>Policy: >>http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/au/index.html. >>If you have previously unsubscribed from Yahoo! Delivers, >>but have received this mailing, please note that it takes >>approximately five business days to process your request. >>For further assistance with unsubscribing, you may contact a >>Yahoo! Delivers representative by email by clicking here: >>au-delivers@yahoo-inc.com. >> >> >>************************************************************* > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 11: 2:51 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9F437B405; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:02:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from energyhq.homeip.net (213-97-200-73.uc.nombres.ttd.es [213.97.200.73]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C170443FBF; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 11:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from flynn@energyhq.homeip.net) Received: from christine.energyhq.tk (christine.energyhq.tk [192.168.100.1]) by energyhq.homeip.net (Postfix) with SMTP id B1F86AF5C8; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:02:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 20:02:55 +0100 From: Miguel Mendez To: Harry Tabak Cc: grog@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo! Message-Id: <20030221200255.1d3cf671.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> In-Reply-To: <3E56754E.2010807@quadtelecom.com> References: <20030219022940.GC17256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3E56754E.2010807@quadtelecom.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.8.10 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) X-Face: 1j}k*2E>Y\+C~E|/wehi[:dCM,{N7/uE 3o# P,{t7gA/qnovFDDuyQV.1hdT7&#d)q"xY33}{_GS>kk'S{O]nE$A`T|\4&p\&mQyexOLb8}FO List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=.xdPj:uMINw)cEV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:51:58 -0500 Harry Tabak wrote: Hello Greg, Harry and the rest, In my search for the final solution to SPAM, I've tried different methods, including, Spamassassin, SA + IPF, extremely aggresive IPF rules, etc. I think I've finally found a quite good solution: SA + Trustic. For those of you who don't know it, Trustic is a community driven system, where, unlike SPEWS, the reasons for blocking a given IP are open to everyone. It's based on a trust system. I think people should give it a go, it has reduced my spam amount from 30/day to 6-8 in less than one week. Check it out if you have some time: www.trustic.com. No, I'm not affiliated with them, I'm just a very happy user. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez - flynn@energyhq.homeip.net GPG Public Key :: http://energyhq.homeip.net/files/pubkey.txt EnergyHQ :: http://www.energyhq.tk Of course it runs NetBSD! --=.xdPj:uMINw)cEV Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (NetBSD) iD8DBQE+VnfinLctrNyFFPERAoHkAKDBHVrkW13i4/WshdCy3lIIP6sdcACffovN H+qFDD9PgcL0Nhrp5xxIY1k= =AYJ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=.xdPj:uMINw)cEV-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 12:46: 1 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E64837B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ms3.quadtelecom.com (ms1.quadtelecom.com [66.45.116.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BC0A943FBD for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 12:45:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from htabak@quadtelecom.com) Received: (qmail 8010 invoked from network); 21 Feb 2003 20:45:53 -0000 Received: from steelcityhosting.com (HELO quadtelecom.com) (66.45.116.139) by ms3.quadtelecom.com with SMTP; 21 Feb 2003 20:45:53 -0000 Message-ID: <3E568FFC.9060705@quadtelecom.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:45:48 -0500 From: Harry Tabak Organization: Quad Telecom, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Miguel Mendez Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo! References: <20030219022940.GC17256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <3E56754E.2010807@quadtelecom.com> <20030221200255.1d3cf671.flynn@energyhq.homeip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I took a peek at the truistic web site and checked 4 African scam messages in today's spam. It found the two that were from open proxies, but not the other two. These two sources were also black listed by relays.osirus.com. I suppose that this service will cut out some spam from the more clueless spam pirates, but it is far from a solution. I don't understand why this site claims to be more of a community effort than spews or relays.osirus.com, et al. Harry Tabak Miguel Mendez wrote: > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:51:58 -0500 > Harry Tabak wrote: > > Hello Greg, Harry and the rest, > > In my search for the final solution to SPAM, I've tried different > methods, including, Spamassassin, SA + IPF, extremely aggresive IPF > rules, etc. I think I've finally found a quite good solution: SA + > Trustic. For those of you who don't know it, Trustic is a community > driven system, where, unlike SPEWS, the reasons for blocking a given IP > are open to everyone. It's based on a trust system. I think people > should give it a go, it has reduced my spam amount from 30/day to 6-8 in > less than one week. Check it out if you have some time: www.trustic.com. > > No, I'm not affiliated with them, I'm just a very happy user. > > Cheers, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 16:24:38 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E58F37B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lakemtao04.cox.net (lakemtao04.cox.net [68.1.17.241]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61B843FEA for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:24:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from vwinxp.threespace.com ([68.11.249.216]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.05 201-253-122-122-105-20011231) with ESMTP id <20030222002434.JYGC22825.lakemtao04.cox.net@vwinxp.threespace.com> for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:24:34 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> X-Sender: tech@threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:25:13 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Chip Morton Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] In-Reply-To: <3E564549.2DCD3E1F@emailrob.com> References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have to second this one. I don't believe any malice was intended, but I don't think Stacy fully considered others' perspectives before this e-mail was sent. At 09:27 AM 2/21/2003, rob spellberg wrote: >as i look back on decisions i have made in my life, > i sometimes find that they can only be explained > by resorting to the phrase: > > "it seemed like a good idea at the time." > >my strongly libertarian bent compels me to state that > if you want to circulate this sort of thing --privately-- > among like-minded persons, then go ahead; > SCOTUS-considered concepts like "inciting a panic" and > "fighting words" notwithstanding. > >however, i question the appropriateness of > posting this type of your humor [ fsdo humor ] > on a public forum such as -chat. > >my concerns are several [ in no particular order of importance ]: > > a] the accusation "elitist" has been discussed extensively and > has recently appeared in another topic. > this one is bad enough; do we want any others? > > b] this now goes into the archives, where, imho, > it takes on the characteristics of > a bomb with a delayed action fuse. > because the subject line includes "copyright", > a person researching things like licensing, etc., > may find this. > this type of person usually has a legal mindset > [ at least, partially ]. > a fraction of this group of people are, > what i call, "professional plaintiffs". > they look for opportunities to be offended > so that they can then play "lawsuit lottery". > these people are not to be encouraged. > > c] related to [b], a person with decision-making authority > may decide that prudence requires the removal of this > entire thread from the archive. > personally, i do not know if the precedent exists, > but it is a dangerous one to set, > even when the original reason is considered "good", > which it usually is. > precedents tend to be invoked. > >iirc, you are held in high regard by, at least, some on this list > for other reasons, technical or organizational. >i don't remember exactly, i will have to research this point. > >i could be wrong, but i don't think this enhances your CV. > >rob spellberg > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 17:16:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E1737B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ntl.com (pc1-glfd2-4-cust59.glfd.cable.ntl.com [81.99.187.59]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBDA43FA3 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 17:16:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from aqua.lan.palfreman.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ntl.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id h1M1K7w9004449; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:20:07 GMT (envelope-from william@palfreman.com) Received: from localhost (william@localhost) by aqua.lan.palfreman.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Submit) with ESMTP id h1M1K70b004446; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:20:07 GMT X-Authentication-Warning: aqua.lan.palfreman.com: william owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:20:07 +0000 (GMT) From: William Palfreman To: Chip Morton Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> Message-ID: <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Chip Morton wrote: > I have to second this one. I don't believe any malice was intended, > but I don't think Stacy fully considered others' perspectives before > this e-mail was sent. I think it was completely harmless, and the GPL one was quite funny. Dialects are dialects, and there are hundreds to choose from. Simply using one is never offensive to the people who speak it themselves, only if the *content* is insulting, and software licences are not, no matter how you look at it. And what is all this rubbish about elitism? Sure, maybe FreeBSD is elitist regarding how well you code and exactly what you have put into BSD, but is certainly is not ethnically based. In fact, I would say (going from my own experiences in London) the FreeBSD tends to be the OS of choice for very cool techies/coders of either Arabic or African extraction, whereas Linux has a much whiter/scruffy-teenage image, especially Debian. Oh, and Rob, if you were a strong Libertarian, you would support Stacy's right to free speech, not make up faux-legalistic stuff about why someone shouldn't post amusing messages to a totally public mailinglist. Bill. -- W. Palfreman. I'm looking for a job: Tel: 0771 355 0354 http://www.palfreman.com/william/ for my CV. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 18:35:31 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E23237B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDE543F75 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:35:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr364-a26.otenet.gr [195.167.109.58]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1M2ZQ2O018285; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:35:27 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h1M2Z3Nq090624; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:35:03 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) id h1M2YuYg090608; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:34:56 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 04:34:56 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: William Palfreman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] Message-ID: <20030222023455.GA85072@gothmog.gr> References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2003-02-22 01:20, William Palfreman wrote: > On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Chip Morton wrote: > > I have to second this one. I don't believe any malice was intended, > > but I don't think Stacy fully considered others' perspectives before > > this e-mail was sent. > > I think it was completely harmless, and the GPL one was quite funny. > Dialects are dialects, and there are hundreds to choose from. Simply > using one is never offensive to the people who speak it themselves, only > if the *content* is insulting, and software licences are not, no matter > how you look at it. And what is all this rubbish about elitism? Aye. You have put in words what I was trying to think about for several minutes this afternoon, and failed because of other, unrelated to FreeBSD or this thread things. I think we can tolerate a fair amount of humour on this list. No, pardon me. `Tolerate' is a very unfitting term. We *need* jokes. After some of the threads I've seen, humour makes my mornings just a tiny bit brighter :-) I mean, I've seen much more 'offensive' stuff posted here. Not that Stacy's posts were. Putting the length of the GPL post aside (which was probably what my 28.8 modem will call offensive any day :P) I had a great laugh. BTW, has anyone tried reading Slashdot! in jive? It's, uhm, in lack of a better word `interesting'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 18:38:30 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D2437B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:38:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D63D43F3F for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:38:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06147; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:38:01 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030221193707.03cee430@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:38:02 -0700 To: William Palfreman , Chip Morton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:20 PM 2/21/2003, William Palfreman wrote: >I think it was completely harmless, and the GPL one was quite funny. I agree. It sounded much more like the way Bradley Kuhn would preach it *after* it went through the filter. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 18:42:46 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514AE37B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F0743FA3 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 18:42:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06175; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:40:44 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030221193842.03cef450@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:40:44 -0700 To: Giorgos Keramidas , William Palfreman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20030222023455.GA85072@gothmog.gr> References: <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:34 PM 2/21/2003, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: >BTW, has anyone tried reading Slashdot! in jive? I could imagine: Natalie Portman..... Sheeeit! Hot grits down yo damn pants, Mama! In other words, still largely content-free. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 19:45:35 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A592437B49A for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:45:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from blue.dls.net (blue.dls.net [209.242.10.156]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CAE043FBD for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:45:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from emailrob@emailrob.com) Received: from emailrob.com (061-dls801.dls.net [216.145.235.61]) by blue.dls.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292F0120555 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:45:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3E56F25F.3B09AB9F@emailrob.com> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 21:45:35 -0600 From: rob spellberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org William Palfreman wrote: > I think it was completely harmless, and the GPL one was quite funny. > Dialects are dialects, and there are hundreds to choose from. Simply > using one is never offensive to the people who speak it themselves, only > if the *content* is insulting, and software licences are not, no matter > how you look at it. And what is all this rubbish about elitism? Sure, > maybe FreeBSD is elitist regarding how well you code and exactly what > you have put into BSD, but is certainly is not ethnically based. In > fact, I would say (going from my own experiences in London) the FreeBSD > tends to be the OS of choice for very cool techies/coders of either > Arabic or African extraction, whereas Linux has a much > whiter/scruffy-teenage image, especially Debian. > > Oh, and Rob, if you were a strong Libertarian, you would support Stacy's > right to free speech, not make up faux-legalistic stuff about why > someone shouldn't post amusing messages to a totally public mailinglist. if you re-read my post, you will find that i do --not-- say that so should not circulate her thoughts. i say, as diplomatically as i can, that circulating thoughts of this nature on a --public-- forum is, in my opinion, not a smart move. i can't speak to how things are done over on your side of the pond, but over here we have an extremely litigious society. this is not far from the type of humor that got "amos and andy" and "heckyl and jeckyl" [ sp. ? ] taken off of television. if you find this funny, you have so's address. start your own mailing list together. if you mean no harm and everyone on the list is of like mind, then i would think no harm is done [ i could be wrong ]. a public list, however, has not pre-qualified the views of its readers. it is not known, a priori, that this is "amusing" to everyone. i read that you are big on the "right to free speech". i do so hate to get legalistic on you and i am not being the least bit faux here but, in the usa, it's actually a "privilege". that's because our constitution has an amendment process. our much ballyhooed first amendment --is-- repealable. all it takes is for 2/3 each of our house and senate and 3/4 of our states to think that "it seemed like a good idea at the time." just think: if it wasn't for that pesky first amendment, we could finally pass a meaningful "hate speech code". think about these two things: a] there is a big difference between 1] having the "right" to do something stupid and 2] having the wisdom to not actually go and do it. b] just because you're out in public doesn't mean anything goes. rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 21 19:52:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C9237B401 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailsrv.otenet.gr (mailsrv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.5]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E283943F93 for ; Fri, 21 Feb 2003 19:52:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from gothmog.gr (patr530-b173.otenet.gr [212.205.244.181]) by mailsrv.otenet.gr (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h1M3qb2O027078; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 05:52:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from gothmog.gr (gothmog [127.0.0.1]) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h1M3qBCZ000966; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 05:52:11 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Received: (from giorgos@localhost) by gothmog.gr (8.12.7/8.12.7/Submit) id h1M3qBlR000965; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 05:52:11 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from keramida@ceid.upatras.gr) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 05:52:11 +0200 From: Giorgos Keramidas To: Brett Glass Cc: William Palfreman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] Message-ID: <20030222035211.GA945@gothmog.gr> References: <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221193842.03cef450@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030221193842.03cef450@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org n 2003-02-21 19:40, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:34 PM 2/21/2003, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > >BTW, has anyone tried reading Slashdot! in jive? [...] > In other words, still largely content-free. Heheh. Right on the spot... Right on the spot :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 22 1:23:40 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2E437B401 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:23:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D6E43F93 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:23:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@unfoldings.net) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18mUlu-000KEF-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:12:35 +0200 Received: from prometheus-p0.datel.laserfence.net ([192.168.255.1] helo=prometheus.home.laserfence.net) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18mUlb-000KE8-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:12:16 +0200 Received: from phoenix.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.2]) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18mUlY-000Dic-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:12:12 +0200 Received: from will by phoenix.home.laserfence.net with local (Exim 4.10) id 18mUlW-0003xp-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:12:10 +0200 From: Willie Viljoen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:12:10 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <20030222023455.GA85072@gothmog.gr> In-Reply-To: <20030222023455.GA85072@gothmog.gr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200302221012.10768.will@unfoldings.net> X-Spam-Score: (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18mUlb-000KE8-00*YHdWcI3d/Q.* X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020422 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 22 February 2003 4:34, Giorgos Keramidas wrote: > > I mean, I've seen much more 'offensive' stuff posted here. Not that > Stacy's posts were. Putting the length of the GPL post aside (which > was probably what my 28.8 modem will call offensive any day :P) I had > a great laugh. Address for donating faster modems? :) -- Willie Viljoen Freelance IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60 +27 51 522 44 36 (after hours) +27 82 404 03 27 (mobile) will@unfoldings.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 22 1:23:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D7337B401 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from apollo.laserfence.net (apollo.laserfence.net [196.44.69.138]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E308543F85 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 01:23:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@unfoldings.net) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18mUrS-000KGB-00; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:18:18 +0200 Received: from prometheus-p0.datel.laserfence.net ([192.168.255.1] helo=prometheus.home.laserfence.net) by apollo.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18mUrE-000KG2-00; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:18:05 +0200 Received: from phoenix.home.laserfence.net ([192.168.0.2]) by prometheus.home.laserfence.net with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 18mUr9-000DjR-00; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:17:59 +0200 Received: from will by phoenix.home.laserfence.net with local (Exim 4.10) id 18mUr8-0003y4-00; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:17:58 +0200 From: Willie Viljoen To: rob spellberg Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 10:17:58 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <3E56F25F.3B09AB9F@emailrob.com> In-Reply-To: <3E56F25F.3B09AB9F@emailrob.com> Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200302221017.58496.will@unfoldings.net> X-Spam-Score: (/) X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18mUrE-000KG2-00*YiJouifF/YQ* X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS snapshot-20020422 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday 22 February 2003 5:45, rob spellberg wrote: > if you re-read my post, you will find that i do --not-- say > that so should not circulate her thoughts. Stacy is male, and "she" can circulate what ever thoughts "she" wants. While you dig your foot out of your mouth, "she" should continue with "her" work, if your sense of humor is too limited to accomodate that, simply do what anybody who doesn't want to get mail from a mailing list does, unsubscribe, it's a free world. You don't have to read our mail if you don't want to. -- Willie Viljoen Freelance IT Consultant 214 Paul Kruger Avenue, Universitas Bloemfontein 9321 South Africa +27 51 522 15 60 +27 51 522 44 36 (after hours) +27 82 404 03 27 (mobile) will@unfoldings.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 22 11:58:43 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0762437B401 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from lariat.org (lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B88243FA3 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 11:58:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.org [63.229.157.2]) by lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14589; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:58:05 -0700 (MST) X-message-flag: Warning! Use of Microsoft Outlook renders your system susceptible to Internet worms. Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20030222125729.03b82a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:58:02 -0700 To: Willie Viljoen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] In-Reply-To: <200302221012.10768.will@unfoldings.net> References: <20030222023455.GA85072@gothmog.gr> <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <20030222023455.GA85072@gothmog.gr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:12 AM 2/22/2003, Willie Viljoen wrote: >Address for donating faster modems? :) We have several extra V.32bis and V.90 modems here if anyone needs 'em. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 22 12:43:18 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A1E37B401 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hindenburg.eboai.org (hindenburg.eboai.org [206.183.134.245]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2CFF43F85 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:43:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jtn@jtn.cx) Received: by hindenburg.eboai.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id B20675E2C4; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:43:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 15:43:14 -0500 From: "Jason T. Nelson" To: rob spellberg Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: was this really necessary? Message-ID: <20030222204314.GA52476@jtn.cx> Reply-To: jtn@jtn.cx References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <3E56F25F.3B09AB9F@emailrob.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jI8keyz6grp/JLjh" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E56F25F.3B09AB9F@emailrob.com> X-Url: http://www.jtn.cx/~jtn/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In our last exciting episode, rob spellberg (emailrob@emailrob.com) said: > i read that you are big on the "right to free speech". > i do so hate to get legalistic on you and > i am not being the least bit faux here but, > in the usa, it's actually a "privilege". > that's because our constitution has an amendment process. > our much ballyhooed first amendment --is-- repealable. > all it takes is for 2/3 each of our house and senate and > 3/4 of our states to think that > "it seemed like a good idea at the time." And this is particularly why we have the 2nd amendment; the second the US federal government tries this is the day I march on Washington armed to defend my rights as defined in our Constitution (and I wouldn't be alone, I assure you). I doubt you could seriously consider that Congress attempting= =20 this stupidity as "representing" our citizens' interests. > just think: if it wasn't for that pesky first amendment, > we could finally pass a meaningful "hate speech code". I really, REALLY, hope you are joking here. =20 --=20 Jason T. Nelson http://www.jtn.cx/~jtn/ BOFH Extraordiaire & Sysadmin Ombudsman GPG key 0xFF676C9E GPG key fingerprint =3D 6272 5482 EDDD D0A3 FED2 262A FABB 599D FF67 6C9E disclaimer: My opinions are my own. Don't bother my employer about them. --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+V+DX+rtZnf9nbJ4RAre8AJ9DKxKQ2n6e47s2I/Iaq3YWohYd/ACdGZZw jd2f9mhMyiw5xWYO2KHlNeo= =0qdN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jI8keyz6grp/JLjh-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 22 13: 7:11 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3CC837B401 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9893C43F85 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:07:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsidd@papagena.rockefeller.edu) Received: from user-0cev12u.cable.mindspring.com ([24.239.132.94] helo=bluerondo.a.la.turk) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18mgrU-0000oE-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 13:07:08 -0800 Received: (qmail 2135 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Feb 2003 21:07:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 16:07:05 -0500 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: rob spellberg Subject: was this really necessary? [ was Re: The FreeBSD Jive Copyright ] Message-ID: <20030222210705.GA2091@papagena.rockefeller.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3E564549.2DCD3E1F@emailrob.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Without getting into debates about hate speech v/s the First Amendment (personally I saw nothing offensive about the posts, though I'm no GPL basher), I think Rob made a valid point in the last line of his first mail: > i could be wrong, but i don't think this enhances your CV. Most likely nobody's going to prosecute you for this particular mailing list posting, but these days employers do frequently google prospective employees. Worse, people google potential dates, friends google friends, etc. It's unlikely you'll come across a posting like the one that sparked this thread if you search for "copyright" "licensing" etc as Rob fears (Google's page-rank is pretty good), but it's pretty likely you'll come across it if you search for "Stacy Olivas". I don't mean Stacy's act of posting was wrong -- some people may be comfortable with making such posts and having them quoted back at them later, and some may not be comfortable with that, it's entirely up to the individual poster (up to a point, obviously hate speech isn't allowed on lists like this). But, in general and without reference to Stacy, people who may worry about others scanning their "online record" do need to watch what they write here... - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 22 19:19: 0 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C76B037B401; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 19:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-send.myrealbox.com (smtp-send.myrealbox.com [192.108.102.143]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3926643FAF; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 19:18:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from casd@myrealbox.com) Received: from myrealbox.com casd@smtp-send.myrealbox.com [193.126.128.35] by smtp-send.myrealbox.com with NetMail SMTP Agent $Revision: 3.28 $ on Novell NetWare; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 20:18:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3E583D9C.9000204@myrealbox.com> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 03:18:52 +0000 From: Santos User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.3b) Gecko/20030114 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg 'groggy' Lehey Cc: developers@FreeBSD.org, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: I'm blocking Yahoo! References: <20030219022940.GC17256@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <20030219022940.GC17256@wantadilla.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I've just received the following spam from Yahoo!, not for the first > time. I've complained in the past, and have had no response. So: I'm > blocking them. They're no longer the good guys in my eyes. > > If you are using Yahoo!, you will not be able to send mail to me. You > will be able to contact me if you put a yahoo.com address in the > Reply-To: header. > > Greg > Why not a whitelist? I seriously doubt that the spamers will reply. And the people with good intentions will be able to contact you. It will cut spam in a efective way. Santos To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 22 23:27:39 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256E637B401 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1252A43FE1 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from pool0405.cvx40-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([216.244.43.150] helo=mindspring.com) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (SSLv3:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18mqXl-0007m8-00; Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:27:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3E58778A.CD67C07@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 23:26:02 -0800 From: Terry Lambert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jtn@jtn.cx Cc: rob spellberg , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: was this really necessary? References: <00bc01c2d93e$452d1f60$0502000a@sentinel> <4.3.2.7.2.20030221181620.01b7ded8@threespace.com> <20030222010251.Y318@ndhn.yna.cnyserzna.pbz> <3E56F25F.3B09AB9F@emailrob.com> <20030222204314.GA52476@jtn.cx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ELNK-Trace: b1a02af9316fbb217a47c185c03b154d40683398e744b8a43e29b078e2376ee18bde570ebbcd05b7a2d4e88014a4647c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason T. Nelson" wrote: > In our last exciting episode, rob spellberg (emailrob@emailrob.com) said: > > i read that you are big on the "right to free speech". > > i do so hate to get legalistic on you and > > i am not being the least bit faux here but, > > in the usa, it's actually a "privilege". > > that's because our constitution has an amendment process. > > our much ballyhooed first amendment --is-- repealable. > > all it takes is for 2/3 each of our house and senate and > > 3/4 of our states to think that > > "it seemed like a good idea at the time." > > And this is particularly why we have the 2nd amendment; the second the US > federal government tries this is the day I march on Washington armed to > defend my rights as defined in our Constitution (and I wouldn't be alone, I > assure you). I doubt you could seriously consider that Congress attempting > this stupidity as "representing" our citizens' interests. The Constitution does not grant these rights; it merely acknowledges them. Look up "inalienable". 8-) 8-). -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message