From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Dec 12 03:04:20 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE19106564A for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 03:04:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prad@towardsfreedom.com) Received: from idcmail-mo2no.shaw.ca (idcmail-mo2no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.9]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8218FC13 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 2008 03:04:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from prad@towardsfreedom.com) Received: from pd7ml2no-ssvc.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.153.162]) by pd5mo1no-svcs.prod.shaw.ca with ESMTP; 11 Dec 2008 20:04:20 -0700 X-Cloudmark-SP-Filtered: true X-Cloudmark-SP-Result: v=1.0 c=0 a=70qzlKQjAAAA:8 a=LXL8el5rAAAA:8 a=KoDPwd6_AAAA:8 a=5N1yJoIn6OUFgWxjFcoA:9 a=NFNE1IvsysEG9pv6A6oA:7 a=ug7qx6Xhb2esYjx5XLmqsTbANbcA:4 a=7Dsci7dhZp0A:10 a=D02SvSX6Ox4A:10 a=hMM2GHGroxMA:10 Received: from s0106000d935c7902.du.shawcable.net (HELO gom.home) ([70.67.160.177]) by pd7ml2no-dmz.prod.shaw.ca with ESMTP; 11 Dec 2008 20:04:19 -0700 Received: from gom.home (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gom.home (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8291701E for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:04:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:04:18 -0800 From: prad To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20081211190418.360dffa5@gom.home> In-Reply-To: <20081212014654.GA32982@kokopelli.hydra> References: <11167f520812070853i3b6fa6dei6e5c71669416470@mail.gmail.com> <20081207191727.V1610@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> <20081207193517.GA20905@laverenz.de> <20081207121431.5dcb37f9@gom.home> <1228733482.4495.14.camel@laptop1.herveybayaustralia.com.au> <20081211122714.W4172@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl> <20081211191219.GB4970@kokopelli.hydra> <20081211132419.761ce14e@gom.home> <20081212001125.GC32300@kokopelli.hydra> <20081211164723.460f909a@gom.home> <20081212014654.GA32982@kokopelli.hydra> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.3.1 (GTK+ 2.12.1; i386-portbld-freebsd7.0) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Why FreeBSD not popular on hardware vendors X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 03:04:20 -0000 On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:46:54 -0700 Chad Perrin wrote: > My point exactly -- you rush to his defense, making statements that > seem intended to skewer me for things he has done. I don't consider > that the epitome of fairness. > i'm not trying to skewer you. i only stated that i didn't think it was fair to call him a troll and stated my reasons as to why. > Each time, I have very > clearly stated my disagreement with his estimation of FreeBSD as > being thoroughly beaten by MS Windows in that area, with that URL > provided as evidence to back my claim. > the problem is that is your own posting (http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=335), not that it should automatically be disqualified for that reason. also, the focus seems to specifically on eye-candy: "open source systems are currently better at glitz and glamour than Microsoft and Apple systems". i don't disagree with you that opensource stuff is much better even if they don't have certain things. however, is this really a freebsd issue or a particular version of a desktop that is offered by a unix system. freebsd doesn't offer the most recent versions (and that's not necessarily a bad thing). > Each time, he has completely ignored what I said and the URL I > provided. He keeps coming back to make exactly the same sort of > claims he has before, utterly failing to addresses arguments against > his hand-waving statements without any logical or evidenciary > support. Nobody else has bothered to dispute what I've said, either. > while i would not use xp, somethings do work with less effort there than say ubuntu. there are certain programs like voice recognition that there isn't an equivalent for with opensource, yet. despite this, i certainly try to demonstrate to people why they should use opensource rather than windoze. > In absence of, at *minimum*, some half-assed attempt to make a case > against what I've provided, I will continue to regard his repetition > of disputed, unsupported statements to be dishonest or at least wildly > inaccurate. > i think his arguments go beyond the eye candy realm. he is not alone, you know. i recall reading a few years ago, the creator of the enlightenment wm saying that the desktop war was long lost to windoze. i don't know if that is correct these days, but it certainly seemed so then. > Would you prefer I just accept his statements, which fly in the face > of my own experience, even after he fails to answer supported > disputations of their content, just because it's him and you say he > has to be right about everything? > chad, you are fantasizing now. i never said he has to be right about everything. in fact, i know for certain that he is wrong whenever he disagrees with me. :D i don't think you need to accept his statements. i do think it would be better if we could drop the name calling and the anger, displayed in the earlier posts. if he fails "to answer supported disputations of their content", you can certainly ask him to deal with the matter at hand. > Even if his statement itself isn't dishonest, his unwillingness to > either back away from it or offer a counterargument when it is > effectively disputed is dishonest. He pretends there is no other > side to the matter, no other valid opinion, yet resolutely refuses to > acknowledge such "other side" arguments when they arise. > i find he does answer quite prolifically, but perhaps he may not have addressed your particular issues. > > and as far as 'sticking to the rules', he hasn't abused anyone from > > any of the posts i recall reading, so within the terms of conduct of > > an email list, i don't find your picturesque expression 'crush > > others beneath his heel' legitimate. > > I guess you haven't been reading very closely. > well there are other things to do in life, you know. but i did notice that you called him a troll and possibly a few other things, which i don't think is appropriate for this list which is the freebsd-questions list and not the freebsd-namecalling list. > Oh, poppycock. Go back and read the very post to which I responded > when I called him a troll. Notice how he says things that seem > carefully calculated to make people think "Oh, this FreeBSD thing > obviously sucks as a desktop OS." > i really didn't get that feeling. i think it was more that he doesn't feel desktop paraphernalia is a high priority. > If you want me to speculate, the best I can offer ... [snip] > well you may be right, but i think for now it should simply rest as speculation only. > Nice -- I make a single comment directed at him about his trolling > behavior, and you drag that out into this lengthy back-and-forth -- > and somehow this means I have a vendetta. > well words like "cruel", "sadistic" and "bastard" really compliment the ambiance that the initial "troll" conjured up. i think you may have said things more 'forcefully' than intended, which is why i thought it was sounding rather like a vendetta. > I guess, when you want to > argue against someone, it helps if you can manufacture greater > malevolence on their part than actually exists, if you want to "win" > a debate through argumentum ad hominem attacks. > i'm not interested in winning this discussion, chad. i do think there are more appropriate ways to behave on an elist that require we don't get into name calling and engaging in the very ad hominem attacks that you so rightly object to. > In answer to your question, RTFML (i.e., Read The Fucking Mailing > List). > nor is there really any need for what is commonly accepted as profanity by a significant number of the population. i don't really think you expect me to go through the mailing list to find instances of what you consider the "half a dozen times in the last year ... he has done his level best to dissuade people ...". on the other hand, if you are able to find these 6 references for me since you are sure they exist, i promise you that i will read them. > http://catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html > > To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable > responses or flames; or, the post itself. > > I think that better fits his consistent statements to the effect that > FreeBSD is inferior to MS Windows as a general desktop OS on the > FreeBSD mailing list than it does my statement that trying to drive > people away from FreeBSD when it might be the best option for them is > cruel and sadistic. I used hyperbole; he said things that seem > calculated to draw flames. > on the other hand, some of the words you have used (hyperbole notwithstanding), do ignite the fire - it is likely we wouldn't be engaged in this discussion if more appropriate words were used. > I'm done trying. I guess, when someone offers a supported argument, > he simply ignores it -- and therefore doesn't have to admit to having > been effectively disputed. > chad, i think it's great that you are such an opensource advocate. i think there is little doubt wojecieh is too. i happen to agree with him on this freebsd matter though and i haven't found your arguments convince me otherwise. nor have i found some of your comments about him either accurate or appropriate. perhaps, some others feel the other way around because of your posts. i think you and i have exchanged enough information on this topic, so if you are done trying, i won't continue this beyond this post since i think we are both possibly polluting the list at this stage. (if you do wish to continue discussing, you are welcome to email me privately.) -- In friendship, prad ... with you on your journey Towards Freedom http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website) Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's