From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 5 10:28:38 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77E8106566B for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:28:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from utisoft@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0D98FC12 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 10:28:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lbon10 with SMTP id n10so14536496lbo.13 for ; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 03:28:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=KUDU47KqKE2BOERho6Foe3dKQzMFUUiJskLFSM38fF4=; b=stelrh0JT3u+TX1fUZNAutU9RiixX1RnrvG7xcBLU6B1sbGT1jB4s5vPwlEEEhe39M IC+Q8BC7JEULZ8v3Tgp/jRoOmxbyQ4mcn7ztOyH0hJzzB0VkJ9qj35JlvMJvMcUIToeP CXUmMEJzwlHsOrwlwvIcsYTdRiGXKIto3hKYt8CrlaEob11i+9skjEfGQMW2Y3I9k24u UNi9ppCH/JLr8hdDVBBWWmfbbuhhuPjXEmA9hPKSm/rIu90UyYygNFML1OKyosbrR0Z/ sbxz1uDvMIRdMqua5I+A3sTaRg34l1hHY0D6lhrNAmnF4NIhT1J2oxGgtlzBFS3k24RZ Zuvg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.136.18 with SMTP id pw18mr25366812lab.17.1341484117049; Thu, 05 Jul 2012 03:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.129.97 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 03:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.129.97 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jul 2012 03:28:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201207051215.44799.j.mckeown@ru.ac.za> References: <20120705082857.GB37083@server.rulingia.com> <4FF55864.8040807@FreeBSD.org> <201207051215.44799.j.mckeown@ru.ac.za> Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2012 11:28:36 +0100 Message-ID: From: Chris Rees To: Jonathan McKeown Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Training wheels for commandline (was Re: Pull in upstream before 9.1 code freeze?) X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 10:28:39 -0000 On Jul 5, 2012 11:16 AM, "Jonathan McKeown" wrote: > > On Thursday 05 July 2012 11:03:32 Doug Barton wrote: > > On 07/05/2012 01:28, Peter Jeremy wrote: > > > On 2012-Jul-05 09:22:25 +0200, Jonathan McKeown > > > > > > wrote: > > >> As for the idea that Linux refugees need extra help to migrate, > > >> that's the sort of thinking that led to things like: > > >> > > >> alias dir=ls > > > > > > Whilst we're on the subject, can we please also have #define BEGIN > > > { #define END } wired into gcc to help people migrating from Algol > > > and Pascal. > > > > Um, this kind of elitist crap really isn't helpful. > > It was intended to be a slightly humorous response to your original question: > > > why would you *not* want a feature that tells you what to > > install if you type a command that doesn't exist on the system? > > rather than ``elitist crap'' (as was the deliberately the over-the-top > comparison to Clippy). I don't think suggesting that someone who wants to use > a system learn how it works is elitist; and I don't object to optional tools > to help them ``settle in'' (but see below). > > You might also notice that I made a suggestion that might help people > migrating - namely some adaptation of the Unix Rosetta Stone in the Handbook > so that people who know how to do something in Linux are quickly guided to > the best way to do it in FreeBSD (and perhaps vice versa). > > > If the new feature gets created, and you don't want to use it, turn it > > off. No problem. > > No. I think this is entirely the wrong way round. If the new feature is > created and you want it, turn it on. Don't make me turn off something I > didn't want in the first place. Given the choice between a system in which I > switch on whatever I need, versus one which has absolutely everything > switched on where I spend ages switching it all off/deinstalling it all, I > know which I prefer - and others have made similar comments. That's crazy- this is the logic that led to our sh having tab completion and history disabled by default for years. How many people honestly knew it was there? The people who would benefit from this feature are the ones who wouldn't know it was there. Chris