From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 6 0:10:57 2003 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D103237B401; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3701B43F75; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from calvin.austin@sun.com) Received: from ha2sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.61]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA12169; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (vpn-129-150-16-31.SFBay.Sun.COM [129.150.16.31]) by ha2sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id h168AcY10297; Thu, 6 Feb 2003 00:10:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E42182A.1CBE7A59@sun.com> Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2003 00:09:14 -0800 From: Calvin Austin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9-31 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "(Hui)" Cc: "John L. Utz III" , John Polstra , bod@freebsdfoundation.org, brian@collab.net, rwatson@freesbsd.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, Brent Verner Subject: Re: patchset 2 report (billh's resignation) References: <20030206021823.GB4193@gnuppy.monkey.org> <863cn2nf6g.wl@utweb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill, maybe now is a good time for a break, but don't walk away, you have as much right to be proud of a completed JDK on freebsd as anyone. Don't let this episode cloud the help I know you can bring in the future.... http://www.everypoet.com/archive/poetry/Rudyard_Kipling/kipling_if.htm calvin "John L. Utz III" wrote: > John; > > Thankyou so much for taking the time to summarize the discussion between you > and bill. > > Others have indicated that posting private email is impolitic. That may be > so. Perhaps it might have been best to ask bill before posting, but that seems > somewhat redundant given that the whole thread was about bills desire to > disseminate this discussion to a wider audience. :-) > > Given the heat of the discussion, i can certainly see myself posting it under > the title of 'Bill's Job Interview', but i think that after i thought about it > a while after i wasnt so terribly annoyed by his tack, i'd probably reconsider. > > I am certainly no stranger to going off on people on FreeBSD mailing lists who > have pissed me off. I can recall going absolutely ape on Rod Grimes because he > thought it was ok to snoop on users. ( no, dont start! :-) ) > > And just a few months ago Murray felt it pertinent to reprimand me for an > ad-hominem attack on somebody on freebsd-mobile. > > So, obviously, i share bill's penchant for hyperbole in my > e-disagreements. > > sorry. i wish i was better. i wish he (bill) was better too. > > But, it seems to me that your snapshot of the discussion lacks context: > > Where's the Request for Proposals? > > Where's all the eager emails from the 100's of developers that felt they where > smart enuf to do the job? > > Where's all the wailing and gnashing of teeth email from everybody else that > didnt get the job? > > Where's the msg's that got Mr. Zelkin the job? > > Where's the msg's where Mr. Zelkin said to bill "Dude, umm, just to let you > know, the FBDF is going to *pay* me to work on stuff that you have selflessly > slaved over for thousands of hours pro-bono, and i think it's important that > i, as an *ethical* sort of person, should clue you in."? > > While conceding the possibility of taking you out of context, i want to > address the '100 people could have done this job'(paraprased) statement. > > IMHO, this is not about competency. There may be other, more competent people > than bill ( there are *probably* more competent people then bill, sometimes he > codes kinda' funny ). > > This is about decency. And human relations. And *enthusiasm*, which is really > the only glue that sticks projects together. > > Bill has busted galactic ass to get us this far. So have lot's of other > people, but it seems like bill was the only stakeholder excluded from the > decisionmaking? If i where him, i'd be achingly pissed off too! > > So, the end result is that we get a totally cool 1.4 jdk at long last. > > that's good. > > but we deeply alienate someone who did a lot of work to make that possible. > > that's suboptimal, and it doesnt look like it ever needed to happen. > > yes, i recognize that some folks think that the quality of his work might be > less than optimal, and that his style can be distinctly uncollegial. > > That doesnt diminish his contribution, and i hope that he continues to work on > the jvm despite this *incredibly* *demotivating* experience. > > and i hope he doesnt take my faint dissin' personally. but if he does, tuff > fucking shit! :-) > > i hope that FBSDF takes a slightly more open approach to dolin' out the loot > in the future. > > i take justin's point that running the FBSDF is a lot of work. and i assume that this > probably *wasnt* a 'fuck bill' session, it was just folks trying to get > something done. > > but going slower and being more public would have done a world of good. > > Take the lessons of NASA's shuttle disaster to heart: talk long, talk loud, > talk often. > > i've been on this list for a dang long time now, and this sudden emergence of > 1.4. stuff just seemed really surprising, and now i know why. > > i dont think it was good to be surprised. > > just my us$0.02 > > johnu > freebsd user since october of 1993, aka spaz@u.washington.edu > > At Wed, 05 Feb 2003 18:58:10 -0800 (PST), > John Polstra wrote: > > > > Oh, for cryin' out loud, Bill, this is ridiculous. > > > > Folks, the entire mail exchange between Bill and me can be found > > here: > > > > http://people.freebsd.org/~jdp/huey/ > > > > Draw your own conclusions. > > > > John > > > > Hui wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 05, 2003 at 07:10:06AM -0500, Brent Verner wrote: > > >> On the HotSpot note, is there any work being done on getting 1.3.1's > > >> HotSpot working? AFAIR, it would not build with 1.3.1-patchset-7. > > > > > > BTW, I've decided after a walk to get food to withhold my patches given > > > the current political climate in our development group and I'd like to > > > announce my resignation from the project effective immediately... No joke. > > > > > > Found out about something recently that almost certainly was kept purposely > > > from me some how. I haven't figured out where the failure is, so sometime > > > my need to pass before the developments become more clear. > > > > > > The basics are that the FreeBSD Foundation is grossly dysfunctional and > > > should *not* be the corporate entity group to recieve grants. That > > > should be dealt with more directly by the sponsor's management layer > > > if they have a desire to do support FreeBSD development. > > > > > > I'd like to see the removal of John Polstra as Vice President of the > > > organization and for other current or potential sponsors to pressure > > > either a political change or public apology along with an acknowledgement > > > of this leadership failure. > > > > > > There are other failures closer to our group that need to be address > > > too. > > > > > > I'll have an explanation of this soon with a psychological, social and > > > polical analysis of what transpired. It's pretty amazingly fucked up. > > > > > > More to come... > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-java" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message