From owner-freebsd-small Sun Sep 13 03:00:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09412 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:00:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fan.net.au (fan.net.au [203.20.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA09294 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 03:00:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from famzon@bigfoot.com) Received: from andrewh.famzon.com.au (dialup-nas1-16.bris.fan.net.au [202.179.224.17]) by fan.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA07681 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:00:37 +1000 (EST) From: "Andrew Hannam" To: Subject: Booting from CD ? Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:58:39 +1000 Message-ID: <000001bddefd$14b2db80$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone created a version suitable for burning onto CD (and running from CD as a bootable CD). CD's are more reliable in the long term and faster than floppies but have no write back capability. The drive is a bit more expensive than a floppy but no-where near the cost of a Flash-Disk. Thanks, Andrew Hannam. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 15 02:05:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24742 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.schmid-telecom.ch ([194.209.128.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA24732 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:05:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald.grov@schmid-telecom.ch) Received: from firewall.schmid-telecom.ch [194.209.128.226] (HELO localhost) by firewall.schmid-telecom.ch (AltaVista Mail V2.0J/2.0J BL25J listener) id 0000_0050_35ad_c202_2922; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:04:02 +0200 Message-ID: From: Grov Harald To: "'freebsd-small@freebsd.org'" Subject: subscribe Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:08:23 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 15 11:00:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26626 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iglou.com (iglou2.iglou.com [192.107.41.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26618 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patrick@cre8tivegroup.com) Received: from [204.255.227.95] (helo=cre8tivegroup.com) by iglou.com with esmtp (8.9.1/8.9.1) id 0zIzOi-00039a-00; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:00:16 -0400 Message-ID: <35FEAB38.945F62BE@cre8tivegroup.com> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 14:00:25 -0400 From: Patrick Gardella Organization: The Creative Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 15 21:06:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23932 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:06:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opera.iinet.net.au (opera.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23923 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from c.avis@rama-tech.com) Received: from grunge.iinet.net.au (grunge.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.9]) by opera.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25417; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:05:54 +0800 Received: from jupiter.rama.com.au (reggae-04-238.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.71.238]) by grunge.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA11753; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:05:10 +0800 Received: from rama-tech.com (chris [192.156.249.56]) by jupiter.rama.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00782; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:00:06 +0800 Message-ID: <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:58:30 +0800 From: Chris Avis Organization: RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux or FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have been following the discussion on embedded Linux versus FreeBSD with some interest. Like Roger Irwin, I was not even aware of picoBSD. Having read through the FreeBSD information and the picoBSD site I was impressed by the level of clear and concise documentation. I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera). In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook". I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much in its infancy and there is not much information present. I basically want to run an embedded Java system. Does anyone have any suggestions ? regards Chris -- Chris Avis (c.avis@rama-tech.com) _--_|\ RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd, 28 Walters Drive / \ Osborne Park, Western Australia 6017, Australia \_.--._/ Tel: +61 8 9445 7999 Fax: +61 8 9445 7666 v http://www.rama-tech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Sep 15 21:30:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27017 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.dcfinc.com (freebie.dcfinc.com [138.113.5.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27012 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chad@freebie.dcfinc.com) Received: (from chad@localhost) by freebie.dcfinc.com (8.8.7/8.8.3a) id VAA18189; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:30:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Chad R. Larson" Message-Id: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com> Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD To: c.avis@rama.com.au (Chris Avis) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:30:00 -0700 (MST) Cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com> from Chris Avis at "Sep 16, 98 11:58:30 am" Reply-to: chad@dcfinc.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit > that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of > Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera). > In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well > documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook". > > Does anyone have any suggestions ? I have run both Linux and FreeBSD systems for a couple of years. My opinion (the only one I'm qualified to offer) is that FreeBSD is =very= much better in unity of the package, and generally from the view of someone who wants to use the system in a production environment. Linux, on the other hand, leads if you're looking for bleeding-edge (like device drivers for the latest-n-greatest sound card) or are concerned with POSIX compatibility. -crl -- Chad R. Larson (CRL15) 602-953-1392 Brother, can you paradigm? chad@dcfinc.com chad@larsons.org chad@anasazi.com larson1@home.net DCF, Inc. - 14623 North 49th Place, Scottsdale, Arizona 85254-2207 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 00:09:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17825 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17818 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09275; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:13:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:13:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: chad@dcfinc.com cc: Chris Avis , linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Chad R. Larson wrote: > > I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit > > that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of > > Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera). > > In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well > > documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook". > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions ? > > I have run both Linux and FreeBSD systems for a couple of years. > > My opinion (the only one I'm qualified to offer) is that FreeBSD is > =very= much better in unity of the package, and generally from the view > of someone who wants to use the system in a production environment. > > Linux, on the other hand, leads if you're looking for bleeding-edge > (like device drivers for the latest-n-greatest sound card) or are > concerned with POSIX compatibility. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Hmm... that's not to say that FreeBSD is not concerned with being POSIX compliant :-) 3.0-RELEASE is _very_ close to the latest published standards. As for the original question: I'd say that both projects are pretty young, and I think you should choose what suits you best :-)). I don't know the folks behind the Linux project, but I'll keep trying to develop PicoBSD, so that it's easy to use in embedded products, and at the same time it's very close to the normal FreeBSD environment (unlike the ELKS project). Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox). And, as an incentive for you :-)) - there is almost ready the native FreeBSD driver for M-Systems DiskOnChip flash... Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 00:23:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20355 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (castles205.castles.com [208.214.165.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20300 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:23:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00719; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:28:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Message-Id: <199809160728.AAA00719@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chris Avis cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:58:30 +0800." <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:28:16 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded > solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a > starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much > in its infancy and there is not much information present. > I basically want to run an embedded Java system. > > Does anyone have any suggestions ? It depends on how "embedded" you want to be. If you're looking to build a trivial appliance, I'd recommend Forth rather than Java. By the time you put a JRE and all the associated frippery onto a general-purpose system you don't really have an "embeddable" product anymore. But really, without much more in the way of context, it's hard to be truly helpful. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 04:25:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25909 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 04:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gentle.hislora.com.au ([203.35.218.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA25904 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 04:25:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lstoll@shoalhaven.net.au) Received: from shoalhaven.net.au (lstoll@port06.shoalhaven.com [203.35.218.86]) by gentle.hislora.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03943 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:32:32 +1000 Message-ID: <35FF9FCA.568F560@shoalhaven.net.au> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:23:55 +1000 From: Lincoln Stoll X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As for the original question: I'd say that both projects are pretty young, > and I think you should choose what suits you best :-)). I don't know the > folks behind the Linux project, but I'll keep trying to develop PicoBSD, > so that it's easy to use in embedded products, and at the same time it's > very close to the normal FreeBSD environment (unlike the ELKS project). The ELKS project is no longer really concerned with making Linux embedded. It's main goal is to create a small and efficient version of Linux to run on processors before the Intel i386. Depending on what you want to do with and embedded OS, you can put Linux in a small amount of space, with some examples being HAL(the url escapes me), which is a single disk version of Linux designed for rescuing systems, although it is adaptable, to the Linux Router Project (http://www.linux-router.org) which is designed for using Linux as a, well, router :) Linc. (lstoll@shoalhaven.net.au) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 05:41:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04099 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 05:41:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04074 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 05:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA19758 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:46:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:46:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ATTENTION: PicoBSD doesn't build on -current Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, After last few days, the FreeBSD-current source tree is a very shaky ground, and many, many things are still changing each hour... Many exciting new features were added, but some of them needed massive changes in various parts of the system, so it's natural that some other parts stopped working. :-) I want to warn you that: * as it is now, picobsd doesn't build at all due to unexpected removal of the SLICE code - some people say that DEVFS is enough, but I'll have to check it myself... * you should wait at least a few days (a week?) and allow the things to settle. There is no sense in trying to keep up with so rapidly changing situation. I know I myself am going to wait with any changes to src/release/picobsd... Last known good sources are from ca. 12.09.1998. * my first attempts to build an ELF crunch showed that it's somewhat bigger uncompressed (by ca. 10kB), but smaller when gzipped (by ca. 40kB), which is a good thing. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 08:21:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27826 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ee.utah.edu (ee.elen.utah.edu [128.110.18.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27822 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from match@ee.utah.edu) From: match@ee.utah.edu Received: from candy.elen.utah.edu by ee.utah.edu with SMTP (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA150029220; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:20:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199809161520.AA150029220@ee.utah.edu> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: c.avis@rama.com.au (Chris Avis), chad@dcfinc.com Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:20:29 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD Cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com> References: <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com> from Chris Avis at "Sep 16, 98 11:58:30 am" X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is easy... (yeah, sure) We are systematically replacing (as they reach end-of-life) all our Sun and HP servers with FreeBSD Intel boxes. We have 4 FreeBSD servers and one FreeBSD router running now. (4 down, 5 to go) :-) They run VERY well, and for now I don't consider any other solutions. Most of us run Linux on our desktops, however, only because new device drivers are usually available sooner, and some of us like the slick X-windows configurations that come with RedHat and Caldera. Just my opinion... your mileage may vary. So, for us... on a network server FreeBSD wins hands down. On the desktop, it's a toss-up. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 10:41:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23946 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:41:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adsl179.mpls.uswest.net (adsl179.mpls.uswest.net [209.180.29.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23939 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oxymoron@waste.org) Received: by waste.org id <83176-2471>; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:40:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:40:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Oliver Xymoron To: Chris Avis cc: linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <35FF3766.B2551EC4@rama-tech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 16 Sep 1998, Chris Avis wrote: > I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded > solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a > starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much > in its infancy and there is not much information present. That's because there isn't currently a "Project" per se. Many of us are working on our own projects on all sorts of different platforms and this list exists to share information. Given the vast variety of potential platforms for "embedded" Linux, ranging from toasters to headless plug and play web servers, it's hard to guess what that project might entail. The biggest hurdle on making an embeddable Linux on a processor family that's already supported is probably the bootstrapping. Since this will likely vary from design to design because of changing memory maps, chipset initialization, etc., it's hard to see how a generic "project" can help. Most of the other kernel stuff needed to make an embedded box workable, like RAM or ROM disks, serial console support, etc. already exist. -- "Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Sep 16 14:03:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05747 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alakai.mindsong.com (alakai.mindsong.com [204.145.255.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05708 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:03:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danno@mindsong.com) Received: from m142.mindsong.com (m142.mindsong.com [204.145.255.142]) by alakai.mindsong.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01469; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:05:31 -1000 (HST) Received: by m142.mindsong.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDE161.61278860@m142.mindsong.com>; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:01:39 -1000 Message-ID: <01BDE161.61278860@m142.mindsong.com> From: dan bigelow To: "linux-embedded@waste.org" , "freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG" , "'Chris Avis'" Cc: "'linux-router@psychosis.com'" Subject: RE: Linux or FreeBSD (hairy edge of off topic) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:01:38 -1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Good to know about these other lists/groups... like humanity, it seems like a waste to have so much redundancy, yet the subtle improvements and brilliance seen in the diversity seem to justify the cost, in spite of the lack of logic... Hi, Having followed this thread but not seen the main reason for *my* choice listed, here goes... first, my unix history - Sun, HP, AT&T 3b1, NextStep, FreeBSD, Linux - both sysv and bsd variants. Right now my servers are FreeBSD, and my imbed box is Linux. my philosophy - "What's the least I can get away with to get it up, then add *my* desired functions (only) to that - Intentional, tight, controlled, with no side effects, please!". I'm a reductionist... less is more (and more likely to just work and be comprehensible...) my opininon - Linux lets me build and change the smallest/cleanest system and add to it most elegantly, keeping in sync with the 'current' releases. Right now, FreeBSD adds the complication of the boot-crunch mode : the do-it-all executable with links, but have to build-it-all into cool but inter-woven bundles (VERY clever, with decent tools to maintain, but not very unix-like in philosophy... and simply more complicated than I like right now). my bottom line - Linux is easier for imbedding and reductionists at heart, and FreeBSD *or* Linux for general desktop/server applications. I happen to pick FreeBSD for my servers (there's only one distribution/way to worry about 'doing it' with normal FreeBSD...), but it's not religious, just easier for me. my soap box (skip unless you're really bored...) - Unlike MicroSnot, Sun, HP, and ... who bundle-it-all and force us disk-cheap schleps (from an era gone by) to strip the un-needed muck (how many screen saver/sound motifs or termcap entries does a mortal really need?) out , with our fingers crossed, hoping we haven't introduced some odd side effect that we'll see in some End-Of-Month-Only-CRON-Script that breaks badly... Personally, I like to divide and conquer : I boot to get a file system, console, and loading tools. Then I bootstrap the resources I need... to load and run the services I came for in the first place. Nothing more on the machine or in memory. period. then I'm happy. If the loading/run the services part is modularized right, life only gets better! While there's nothing new about this protocol (the Sys V Init system does this pretty well and can even go backwards and undo things done, by changing run levels), the ability to distinguish between (and bundle) the sections and control the behaviour on most systems is almost always obscurred by the tangle of scripts and their interdependencies... Linux seems to have isolated these parts better than the others I've seen. Maybe it's because I've studied it better for my purposes, I dunno... the LRP package (linux router project, http://www.linuxrouter.org) is probably the best model I've seen to this end... I've even bastardized it to my own, more minimal ends... Look at mulinix too - clever minimal tools for common tasks (sed can do *anything*... dunno where that is... sunsite for sure). I'm also keeping my eye on Andrzej Bialecki's picoBSD progress (http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/), cuz his attitudes seem in-line with what I'm doing. (Andrzej, look at LRP's initrd and tgz image loading code! bitchin stuff! although your custom 'init' shell has a place in LRP type projects too) It's all an amazing ton of fun! anyway, my 2 'sense' - opinions encouraged, flames to /dev/halon thanks to all involved, --danno (spam_watch@mindsong.com) ---------- From: Chris Avis[SMTP:c.avis@rama.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 1998 5:58 PM To: linux-embedded@waste.org; freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux or FreeBSD I have been following the discussion on embedded Linux versus FreeBSD with some interest. Like Roger Irwin, I was not even aware of picoBSD. Having read through the FreeBSD information and the picoBSD site I was impressed by the level of clear and concise documentation. I have been using Redhat Linux for some time and will admit that I sometimes get confused with the different variants of Linux and the different ways things are done (e.g. Caldera). In this respect the FreeBSD solution is extremely well documented in the "FreeBSD Handbook". I have been looking at experimenting with an embedded solution and started using the Linux Router Project as a starting point. The Embedded Linux Project looks very much in its infancy and there is not much information present. I basically want to run an embedded Java system. Does anyone have any suggestions ? regards Chris -- Chris Avis (c.avis@rama-tech.com) _--_|\ RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd, 28 Walters Drive / \ Osborne Park, Western Australia 6017, Australia \_.--._/ Tel: +61 8 9445 7999 Fax: +61 8 9445 7666 v http://www.rama-tech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 01:05:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18909 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr (adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr [128.134.56.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA18866 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byungh@adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr) Received: from coco7 (unverified [128.134.56.105]) by adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:02:55 +0900 Message-ID: <000d01bde212$062f6520$69388680@coco7.kwangwoon.ac.kr> From: "=?euc-kr?B?vNu6tMjG?=" To: Subject: subscribe small Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:06:07 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BDE25D.75C91430" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BDE25D.75C91430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 c3Vic2NyaWJlIHNtYWxsICBieXVuZ2hAYWRhbXMua3dhbmd3b29uLmFjLmtyDQo= ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BDE25D.75C91430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="euc-kr" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBXMyBIVE1MLy9FTiI+DQo8SFRNTD4N CjxIRUFEPg0KDQo8TUVUQSBjb250ZW50PSJ0ZXh0L2h0bWw7IGNoYXJzZXQ9a3NfY181NjAxLTE5 ODciIGh0dHAtZXF1aXY9Q29udGVudC1UeXBlPg0KPE1FVEEgY29udGVudD0nIk1TSFRNTCA0Ljcy LjMxMTAuNyInIG5hbWU9R0VORVJBVE9SPg0KPC9IRUFEPg0KPEJPRFkgYmdDb2xvcj0jZmZmZmZm Pg0KPERJVj5zdWJzY3JpYmUgc21hbGwmbmJzcDsgPEEgDQpocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86Ynl1bmdoQGFk YW1zLmt3YW5nd29vbi5hYy5rciI+Ynl1bmdoQGFkYW1zLmt3YW5nd29vbi5hYy5rcjwvQT48L0RJ Vj48L0JPRFk+PC9IVE1MPg0K ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BDE25D.75C91430-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 01:26:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21821 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:26:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr (adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr [128.134.56.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA21804 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:26:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from byungh@adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr) Received: from coco7 (unverified [128.134.56.105]) by adams.kwangwoon.ac.kr (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:24:10 +0900 Message-ID: <003201bde214$fe1934d0$69388680@coco7.kwangwoon.ac.kr> From: "=?euc-kr?B?vNu6tMjG?=" To: Subject: two Question about Pico BSD Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:27:22 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01BDE260.6DF19A90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BDE260.6DF19A90 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:54:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08537 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 02:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01427; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:58:56 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:58:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: =?euc-kr?B?vNu6tMjG?= cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: two Question about Pico BSD In-Reply-To: <003201bde214$fe1934d0$69388680@coco7.kwangwoon.ac.kr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, [euc-kr] ¼Ûº´ÈÆ wrote: > [Q 1]i can't edit ( ex : vi, vim...etc) INTO pico-bsd. > > why need edit? Because I wish some setting ( defaultrouter ,, dns ..) You can add some small editor (NOT vi, vim, etc - they are too big), e.g. ee (Easy Editor, src/usr.bin/ee), and it's available on the "dial" floppy. In order to add it to some other type of picobsd setup, you have to first remove something other - the floppy is too small... > [Q 2]my program (router program..) development INTO FreeBSD 2.2.7 > Can I this appication load into Pico-BSD 0.31 (i have PicoBSD 0.31 ) ? ... > Pls.. tell me the process for [bsd_app-to-picobsd_app] compile... Read the manpage of crunchgen - basically, you have to place it in directory called the same as the executable (e.g. ee/ for program 'ee'), then your Makefile must be a Bmake (Berkeley make) compatible, it has to define OBJS and it has to have a 'depend' target. Then, if your application meets these requirements, you simply add it to your crunch.conf file. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 04:18:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA20443 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:18:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA20429 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jimd@starshine.org) Received: by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA14932 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:17:43 -0700 Received: from canopus.starshine.org (canopus.starshine.org [192.168.64.3]) by antares.starshine.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07629; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:56:06 -0700 Received: from canopus.starshine.org (jimd@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by canopus.starshine.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02507; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:55:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199809170755.AAA02507@canopus.starshine.org> To: Oliver Xymoron Cc: Chris Avis , linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: MH 8.6.3 Subject: Bootable ISA ROM Disk Card: (was Linux or FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: Message Apparently From Oliver Xymoron Dated Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:40:41 CDT. Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:55:49 -0700 From: Jim Dennis Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The biggest hurdle on making an embeddable Linux on a processor family > that's already supported is probably the bootstrapping. Since this will > likely vary from design to design because of changing memory maps, chipset > initialization, etc., it's hard to see how a generic "project" can help. > Most of the other kernel stuff needed to make an embedded box workable, > like RAM or ROM disks, serial console support, etc. already exist. Speaking of ROM disks --- where can I find a bootable supported ISA ROM disk card for Linux? I'd prefer one that accepts PCMCIA memory/flash cards --- particularly the Maxtor ones with the handy hardware write-protect on them. -- Jim Dennis (800) 938-4078 consulting@starshine.org Proprietor, Starshine Technical Services: http://www.starshine.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 10:17:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA15765 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from halibut.imedia.com (halibut.imedia.com [206.3.97.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15747 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pmonta@halibut.imedia.com) Received: (from pmonta@localhost) by halibut.imedia.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04464; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:14:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:14:54 -0700 Message-Id: <199809171714.KAA04464@halibut.imedia.com> From: Peter Monta To: jimd@starshine.org CC: oxymoron@waste.org, c.avis@rama.com.au, linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199809170755.AAA02507@canopus.starshine.org> (message from Jim Dennis on Thu, 17 Sep 1998 00:55:49 -0700) Subject: Re: Bootable ISA ROM Disk Card: (was Linux or FreeBSD) Reply-to: pmonta@imedia.com Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Speaking of ROM disks --- where can I find a bootable > supported ISA ROM disk card for Linux? I'd prefer one that > accepts PCMCIA memory/flash cards --- particularly the > Maxtor ones with the handy hardware write-protect on them. We're using an IDE flash disk from Sandisk (www.sandisk.com). It comes in a removable PCMCIA-like format: mechanically it's PCMCIA, but the interface is IDE. The small board/bracket that the card plugs into has an IDE interface that simply goes right to the motherboard IDE controller. Cheers, Peter Monta pmonta@imedia.com Imedia Corp. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Sep 17 10:19:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16498 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vip.consys.com (Comobabi.ConSys.COM [209.141.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16463 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:19:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rcarter@pinyon.org) Received: (from pinyon@localhost) by vip.consys.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA12662 for freebsd-small@freebsd.org; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:18:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:18:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Russell L. Carter" Message-Id: <199809171718.KAA12662@vip.consys.com> To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: using picoBSD to get big. Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So what if you took a couple of these motherboards that support 1GB of memory, booted picoBSD on them, copied your web partition from a reliable source (some sort of raid) to an MFS, copied your MySQL databases to another MFS (possibly the same), and then used the reverse proxy patched Apache http://www.webtechniques.com/features/1998/05/engelschall/engelschall.shtml to distribute the load between the two (or more. Of course the reverse proxy could be a smaller system, running picoBSD. No disk drives. Transparent redundancy. This looks to work nice for serving static (database) content, but I don't see an elegant way to commit dynamic database content back to the RAID. Any ideas? This has got possibilities for "Beowulf" style clusters too. Russell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Sep 18 15:28:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17488 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni-koblenz.de (praia.bofh.de [195.78.185.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17450 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:28:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ralf@uni-koblenz.de) From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de Received: (from ralf@localhost) by uni-koblenz.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00841; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:20:08 +0200 Message-ID: <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:20:08 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , chad@dcfinc.com Cc: Chris Avis , linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD References: <199809160430.VAA18189@freebie.dcfinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Andrzej Bialecki on Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in > commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel > modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see > commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox). And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously considering any othe variant. In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one. Ralf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Sep 18 17:47:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12686 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA12661 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:47:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02275; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199809190050.RAA02275@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de cc: Andrzej Bialecki , chad@dcfinc.com, Chris Avis , linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:20:08 +0200." <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:50:54 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > > Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in > > commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel > > modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see > > commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox). > > And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously > considering any othe variant. > > In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one. That depends. You're willing to send me a copy of your GPL-tainted source? You won't mind when I repackage it as the Red Rock and start selling it against you with only a small fraction of your development overheads? I realise that the Qube isn't actually anything remarkable other than in terms of packaging, but for many products the GPL simply isn't viable, and this is why most of them don't use Linux. Most notably, anyone doing anything interesting inside the kernel (eg. GnatBox). Still, pick what works for you, and stick with it. Either way, you often end up so far ahead of where you'd be with a closed embedded platform that the differences between GPL or BSD codebase is lost in the noise. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 07:15:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07797 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA07777 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:15:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06778; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:18:15 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:18:14 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: ralf@uni-koblenz.de cc: chad@dcfinc.com, Chris Avis , linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 ralf@uni-koblenz.de wrote: > On Wed, Sep 16, 1998 at 09:13:06AM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > > Also, my personal opinion is that it's much easier to use FreeBSD in > > commercial situations, because GPL requires you to publish your kernel > > modifications, which is bad. You don't have this problem with FreeBSD (see > > commercial examples of Whistle's InterJet and www.gta.com GnatBox). > > And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously > considering any othe variant. > > In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one. That's ok with me :-) However, if you changed anything in the kernel or any of the GNU utilities that comes with Linux, I'd like to see your source code... (not really, but you get the point). Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 08:49:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14706 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iglou.com (iglou2.iglou.com [192.107.41.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14701 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:49:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patrick@cre8tivegroup.com) Received: from [204.255.227.99] (helo=gateway.cre8tivegroup.com) by iglou.com with esmtp (8.9.1/8.9.1) id 0zKPFg-00077L-00; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:48:48 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:49:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick Gardella To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: subscribe Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 16:15:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16278 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:15:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni-koblenz.de (praia.bofh.de [195.78.185.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16257 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ralf@uni-koblenz.de) From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de Received: (from ralf@localhost) by uni-koblenz.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03170; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:13:43 +0200 Message-ID: <19980920011340.B3057@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:13:40 +0200 To: Mike Smith Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , chad@dcfinc.com, Chris Avis , linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD References: <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de> <199809190050.RAA02275@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199809190050.RAA02275@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 05:50:54PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Sep 18, 1998 at 05:50:54PM -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one. > > That depends. You're willing to send me a copy of your GPL-tainted > source? You won't mind when I repackage it as the Red Rock and start > selling it against you with only a small fraction of your development > overheads? I don't mind because those parts that are so simple that you can repackage them easily aren't of real value. What isn't included in a GPL'ed source tree is the understanding of all the inner working. You'd not be able to really use all the source. Guess why Cobalt (and others) had to hire people from the Linux comunity in order actually be able to produce a good product within a reasonable timespan. For products like th > I realise that the Qube isn't actually anything remarkable other than > in terms of packaging, but for many products the GPL simply isn't > viable, and this is why most of them don't use Linux. Most notably, > anyone doing anything interesting inside the kernel (eg. GnatBox). > > Still, pick what works for you, and stick with it. Either way, you > often end up so far ahead of where you'd be with a closed embedded > platform that the differences between GPL or BSD codebase is lost in > the noise. 8) For the price / performance ratio and the achieved production cost per piece MIPS was the CPU of choice and the state of the Linux/MIPS kernel required that myself as the MIPS port's main author and a couple of other invested many man-months of software work, so your analysis from above is way wrong. We never feared cloning the GPL'ed software because parts the important parts of the Qube are not the modifications of the kernel but the user interface etc. Finally the knowledge in the products is in the heads of the engineering staff. Any customization for special platforms without that special knowledge is very, very hard. Ralf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 16:16:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16603 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:16:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni-koblenz.de (praia.bofh.de [195.78.185.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16580 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ralf@uni-koblenz.de) From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de Received: (from ralf@localhost) by uni-koblenz.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03177; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:15:54 +0200 Message-ID: <19980920011554.C3057@uni-koblenz.de> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 01:15:54 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki Cc: chad@dcfinc.com, Chris Avis , linux-embedded@waste.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux or FreeBSD References: <19980917032008.E437@uni-koblenz.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Andrzej Bialecki on Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 04:18:14PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Sep 19, 1998 at 04:18:14PM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > And yet we've choosen Linux for the Cobalt Qube without even seriously > > considering any othe variant. > > > > In most cases the (C) is just a mental problem, not a real one. > > That's ok with me :-) However, if you changed anything in the kernel or > any of the GNU utilities that comes with Linux, I'd like to see your > source code... (not really, but you get the point). Yes, but: ftp.cobaltmicro.com. And I think we should now finish the licensing discussion, linux-embedded etc. are better used for technical problems. At least that's I'll do. Ralf To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Sep 19 18:06:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02604 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:06:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02501 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA08508 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 03:11:21 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 03:11:21 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ATTN: PicoBSD builds work again (hopefuly :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I think I fixed most, if not all, places where the recently removed SLICE code caused breakage. Those of you who regularly build their own versions of picobsd please try it now, and report any errors. You'll need the source tree from today, or newer. Alas, I had to completely remove all nice features which DEVFS bought us previously. As a result, we again have to know beforehand what device nodes each setup needs, and making all of them takes a lot of space... :-((( And, consequently each MFS has to have more inodes, which decreases its available space... Now I'm working on using an ELF crunch, which should take slightly less space when compressed... Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message