From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 0:48:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1335314D25 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:48:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21388; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:48:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991120204027.0452b630@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 22:04:49 -0700 To: crh@outpost.co.nz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Video Stupidity Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991117060702.DEB511527A@hub.freebsd.org> References: <000001bf30b5$b82c5470$021d85d1@youwant.to> <199911170254.TAA05982@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:06 PM 11/17/1999 +1200, Craig Harding wrote: >PS I don't have the technical specs of Betamax and VHS to hand to >compare them, so I'm not going to argue on technical performance, >but everything I've read suggests VHS won because of (relatively) >free and open licensing vs Sony's desire to control and own >everything that was Betamax. Unfortunately Sony's tactics have been >much more successful in the broadcast arena. Sony did try to charge rival content producers royalties to get their films onto Betamax, which did indeed get said rivals quite steamed. But those producers turned the tables. First, they initiated legal action against Sony. When that began to look as if it wouldn't succeed, they adopted other tactics. They refused to let their content be produced on Beta and then subsidized the marketing efforts of VHS manufacturers. By chilling the market with a lawsuit, marketing the heck out of VHS and restricting access to key content (such as Disney movies), Sony's rivals won. So, in the end, technology had nothing to do with how things turned out. Beta actually *was* superior, but things would have played out the same whether it was or not. Incidentally, Sony is now trying to introduce a proprietary flash memory format. Why another format? Partially so they can own it, but primarily because it has COPY PROTECTION. (Yes, that's right; each Memory Stick incorporates SCMS.) Now that Sony itself has a large content empire (which it began to bulk up shortly after it realized that content lost it the VHS vs. Beta battle), it wants to prevent its content from being copied -- at all costs. Likewise, have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? Again, this is an attempt to protect content from copying. Funny how everything is interconnected. Sony sometimes does produce decent products, but it's always important to watch for ulterior motives. (Side note: I'm also rather bummed that Sony's Vaio F390, a very good-looking and fast laptop, has a "lobotomodem" chip permanently soldered onto the motherboard, making the modem useless unless you're running Windows. You can't buy the machine without Windows, either. Sony supports alternative OSes in Japan, I hear, but clearly wants to lock users into Microsoft products in the States. Like many vendors, they may HAVE to do this to be able to buy Windows from Microsoft. I hear that Microsoft charges more to license Windows if a vendor doesn't put Windows-specific hardware in a system; this is one of their "marketing" programs.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 0:48:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B9A156AC for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:48:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21400; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:48:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991120215941.0424c2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 22:01:13 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Phil Regnauld" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Marketing vs. technical superiority (was: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit") Cc: In-Reply-To: <000001bf327c$3a115090$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <19991119113011.62880@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:52 AM 11/19/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > The allegations that Microsoft raises prices when it achieves market >domination are clearly false, at least for the most rigorous studies of the >US market to date. (See Liebowitz and Margolis, for example) Liebowitz and Margolis are both paid, handsomely, by Microsoft to produce so-called "scholarly" papers that support its current marketing and/or legal spin. The fact that you cite them at all strengthens my conviction that you are being paid by Microsoft to troll this list. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 0:49:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68CB015747 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:49:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21382; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:48:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991120195344.0452f8d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 21:57:18 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jonathon McKitrick" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: "Erick White" , In-Reply-To: <000001bf306f$c463a130$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:18 PM 11/16/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: >Right, this is progress. If you want the features of Kodak >Advantix, you >need an Advantix camera. And that means you need Advantix film. And of >course, your film processor needs a machine that can process >that film. To >get the advantages of newer technological developments, you need a new >everything. This is really evidence that Microsoft does not operate by >locking people into inferior developments but actually by continually >reinventing its products to keep them leading edge. Ironically, you've picked an example that proves exactly the opposite. As any photographer or photofinisher can tell you, Advantix has no significant technological advantages over good old 35mm film -- just a few gimmicks. The real reasons Kodak introduced Advantix were as follows: (a) To recapture a larger share of the photofinishing market just before selling off its photofinishing business. This maximized the price it could ask when it spun off Kodalux. The Advantix cartridges had a few features which were patented, as well as other quirks which made them incompatible with existing processing equipment. None of these made the product significantly better. But because of the patents, Kodak could either bar other photofinishers from processing the film or charge them high prices for equipment that was compatible. (b) To increase its market share in the film business by preventing other film manufacturers from making the film. (Or, again, to charge those manufacturers royalties on every Advantix cartridge they shipped.) (c) To drive makers of competitive photofinishing equipment (including minilabs) out of the market by refusing to let them make Advantix-compatible equipment. Alternatively, Kodak could charge them big bucks for the "privilege," sapping their profits. Consumers suffered as a result of all of these tactics. Our local photo shop, which had a Norita minilab, couldn't do Advantix film, and so had to ship the film to someone with expensive Kodak equipment -- usually Kodak's own Kodalux division -- for processing. Not only did this cost more; it was far slower than the one-hour service we could get on 35mm film. The photo shops were hurt as well; their inability to use their existing equipment on Advantix film cost them business. With all of these drawbacks, and only trivial advantages, how did Kodak get consumers to adopt the Advantix film format? Simple: They dumped cameras, just as Microsoft dumped IE. Kodak even paid camera manufacturers to bring out Advantix cameras, just as Microsoft paid ISPs to force their users to use IE. Kodak's tactics were unethical in that they manipulated markets and hurt consumers. And most likely illegal even in the absence of a monopoly. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 0:49:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5C81575C for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:49:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21385; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:48:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991120202859.0452b930@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 20:29:59 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jonathon McKitrick" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: "David Scheidt" , "Erick White" , In-Reply-To: <000001bf3095$9d3e7640$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:49 PM 11/16/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > Show me a competitor that he has 'shut down' without having a better >product to compete with it. Show me one. Please. Digital Research. Stac. Quarterdeck. Netscape. Shall I go on? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 0:50:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A5CA1579E for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 00:50:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA21391; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:48:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991120214744.0424c3e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 21:49:10 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Terry Lambert" , "Jonathon McKitrick" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: , In-Reply-To: <001e01bf31f2$02c70fb0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <199911181753.KAA15939@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:23 AM 11/18/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > Yes. It required the ability to wield what is called "monopolistic > > power" in the marketplace. If you can wield this power, you can > > subvert normal free-market pressures, and by subverting, ignore them. > > Then why is it that not one single clear example of this has ever been >found? Just because you refuse to acknowledge them -- due either to ideology or the affiliation with Microsoft that I am now sure you have -- does not mean that many have not been found. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 2:19:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0869014F4B for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 02:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: from ska.bsn (beefcake.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.12]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06367; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:26:49 +1100 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA54908; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:36:08 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199911211036.VAA54908@ska.bsn> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:36:08 +1100 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: Video Stupidity To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991120204027.0452b630@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? There are such beasts and have been for years. Mine has stereo mikes (separate from the main unit) and a tape speed control. Quite reasonable sound for a cheapo cassette but it isn't a Nagra by any means. Maybe they don't market the recording models in the USA. -- Chuck Berry lied about the promised land To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 7:20:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04FC14C24 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 07:20:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA68632; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:20:26 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:20:26 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: atrn@zeta.org.au Cc: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Video Stupidity In-Reply-To: <199911211036.VAA54908@ska.bsn> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 21 Nov 1999 atrn@zeta.org.au wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? > > There are such beasts and have been for years. Mine has stereo Is it a Sony? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 9: 6: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6640151DF for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:05:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA66179; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:04:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: General thoughts and questions on FreeBSD] References: <3835E44A.6670C554@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Nov 1999 18:04:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jonathon McKitrick's message of "Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:59:06 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 10 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick writes: > Any thoughts on his kernel issues? Quite probably pilot error. BTW, was he running FreeBSD on an FPU-less 386 or 486? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 9:52:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.xcelcom.com (mx1.xcelcom.com [216.42.43.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3C91576A for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:52:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greyheart@fnmail.com) Received: from xcelcom.com ([216.42.43.9]) by mx1.xcelcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08306; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:02:09 GMT Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:02:09 GMT From: greyheart@fnmail.com Message-Id: <199911211802.SAA08306@mx1.xcelcom.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: brett@lariat.org Subject: About: FreeBSD at COMDEX Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello! Reading this article really pissed me off. The solutions are so obvious that I can't see why you're complaining about not having enough attention. You asked for it! When you're leaving GNU aside, you're putting yourself aside. Gnu people get to this stage not without efforts, with advocacy, with time, with money, with _love_ for computer. So they are where they are, with all the attention going for them. They already are conquering the world, though lot of people say something different. When I installed my first copy of GNU/Linux a few years ago, Linus wasn't the shadow of what it is today, so that's what I mean when I say that it already conquered the world. It's just a matter of time for it to be on all computers around the world. And there it is FreeBSD, a better, faster, and more stable OS, but with an attitude problem. Why don't you just forget all the hate against the GPL (looks more of a colective communism hate for me), and take advantage of what GNU won. I was so happy with FreeBSD, I didn't need to restart my computer to use a program made for GNU/Linux, in fact it worked days without a reboot, and it worked faster. But sadly it couldn't be up to date with new technologies, and I couldn't afford to wait for months until FreeBSD's developers have an alternative to the GPL. Maybe the next month I'd buy a DVD player, and it has drivers for GNU/Linux, should I reboot my computer and start GNU/Linux just for looking a movie, I don't think so. For the first time I chose Unix not for having to restart everytime. So I'll have to keep with GNU/Linux, like it or not, at least I'm not going for the Microsoft alternative anymore. Why don't you realize that the hate and prejudice is what's putting you aside? Now is the time for FreeBSD to start thinking of change, because the world is changing. All the pieces are in the right place RIGHT NOW, for you to become widely known. Use them, or die. Jimmy. --------------------------------------------------------------- This Message was Powered by Xcel Communications Sign up for your FREE EMAIL account today at http://www.mailroom.com Give your FAX machine an email address http://www.faxroom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 9:55:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C9B14D07 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 09:55:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24627; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 10:55:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121104825.0481ab30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 10:55:04 -0700 To: atrn@zeta.org.au From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Video Stupidity Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199911211036.VAA54908@ska.bsn> References: <4.2.0.58.19991120204027.0452b630@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, as I recall, Sony was said to have ONE -- count it -- ONE recording Walkman. But the only references I could find to it said that it was priced at something like 5x the cost of a player -- even though the cost of adding recording was obviously nowhere near that. So, no one carried it. Sony had -- and has -- a vested interest in discouraging anyone from buying a device that can record music without copy protection, and this is one way they try to enforce it. --Brett At 09:36 PM 11/21/1999 +1100, atrn@zeta.org.au wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: > > have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? > >There are such beasts and have been for years. Mine has stereo >mikes (separate from the main unit) and a tape speed control. >Quite reasonable sound for a cheapo cassette but it isn't a >Nagra by any means. Maybe they don't market the recording models >in the USA. > > >-- >Chuck Berry lied about the promised land To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 10: 1:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFDB14D0E for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 10:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (quitte-atm [141.44.30.41]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA07159; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 19:01:46 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id TAA11368; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 19:01:35 +0100 (MET) To: greyheart@fnmail.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org Subject: Re: About: FreeBSD at COMDEX References: <199911211802.SAA08306@mx1.xcelcom.com> From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: greyheart@fnmail.com's message of "Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:02:09 GMT" Date: 21 Nov 1999 19:01:34 +0100 Message-ID: <0v66yvenb5.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org greyheart@fnmail.com writes: > and I couldn't afford to wait for months until FreeBSD's developers > have an alternative to the GPL. There is one in place for years now. > Use them, or die. How sweet. :) Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 10:21:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F5314C88 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 10:21:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24848; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:21:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121105858.0479a450@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:21:03 -0700 To: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Open Source isolated at COMDEX (Was: About: FreeBSD at COMDEX) In-Reply-To: <199911211802.SAA08306@mx1.xcelcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:02 PM 11/21/1999 +0000, greyheart@fnmail.com wrote: Reading this article really pissed me off. The solutions are >so obvious that I can't see why you're complaining about not having >enough attention. Pray tell, please explain what "the solutions" are, and what problems you believe that they solve. >You asked for it! When you're leaving GNU aside, >you're putting yourself aside. Not at all. The GPL -- and most especially Stallman's "Free" Software Foundation (a misnomer because it actually "captures" software rather than making it freely available) -- have very badly hurt the open source community. (Note: Technically, GPLed software is not open source, because the GPL does not meet the criteria for an open source license enumerated at www.opensource.org. The GPL discriminates against a field of endeavor -- the creation of commercial and proprietary software -- and thus fails the test.) The GPL is an attempt to turn open source, which is a good thing, into a weapon against legitimate businesses and against programmers' livelihoods. It enforces Richard Stallman's 20+ year grudge against anyone who would like to turn knowledge gleaned from academic research into useful products. This agenda is not lost on businesspeople who are considering the use of open source software. In fact, many do not realize that there are open source solutions (such as FreeBSD) which are NOT licensed under the GPL's "poison pill" license, and so reject open source altogether. Perhaps this is why COMDEX segregated those "Linux loonies" in a separate hall at COMDEX, under an entirely different trade show name. (I am told that they WOULD NOT let open source vendors onto the main show floor.) COMDEX saw Linux -- and alas, by association, all open source -- as a movement that was antagonistic to business, as expressly stated in Stallman's writings. So, they removed it from the sphere of those who wanted to make money from their efforts. It's a shame that FreeBSD was lumped in with it, as FreeBSD does not embrace Stallman's spiteful agenda. > Gnu people get to this stage not without efforts, with >advocacy, with time, with money, with _love_ for computer. So they are >where they are, with all the attention going for them. They already >are conquering the world, though lot of people say something >different. It sounds as if you've embraced Stallman's rhetoric, lock stock, and barrel. Think critically, man! The entire "GNU" agenda is nothing but spite against those who want to make money from what they do. Can't you see that? > And there it is FreeBSD, a better, faster, and more stable OS, >but with an attitude problem. While some of the people involved with FreeBSD do have attitude problems (there are definitely some elitists in the bunch who should come down off of their high horses), the same problems are rampant in the GPL camp. >Why don't you just forget all the hate >against the GPL (looks more of a colective communism hate for me), and >take advantage of what GNU won. It is the GPL that embodies hate: an irrational hatred of business, and especially of anyone who does well and reaps a reward for his or her efforts. The GPL is designed to "monkey wrench" their legitimate and earnest efforts, and to deprive them of their livelihoods. The BSD license does not do that, which is why I advocate it. > Why don't you realize that the hate and prejudice is what's >putting you aside? As mentioned above, it is the GPL that institutionalizes hatred, and therefore should be banished from the world of open source software. >Now is the time for FreeBSD to start thinking >of change, because the world is changing. All the pieces are in the >right place RIGHT NOW, for you to become widely known. Use them, or >die. The open threat in the above paragraph -- not exactly the "love and flowers" attitude you claimed earlier in your message -- betrays the true attitude behind the GPL and the FSF. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 10:24:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.xcelcom.com (mx1.xcelcom.com [216.42.43.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8948B14C88 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 10:24:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greyheart@fnmail.com) Received: from xcelcom.com ([216.42.43.9]) by mx1.xcelcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA17893; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:33:47 GMT Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:33:47 GMT From: greyheart@fnmail.com Message-Id: <199911211833.SAA17893@mx1.xcelcom.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: brett@lariat.org Subject: Errata: About: FreeBSD at COMDEX Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "When I installed my first copy of GNU/Linux a few years ago, Linus wasn't the shadow of what it is today, so that's what I mean ^^^^^ when I say that it already conquered the world." Should say: GNU/Linux. I mispelled Linux, and my search engine couldn't find Linux to replace for GNU/Linux. :) Jimmy. --------------------------------------------------------------- This Message was Powered by Xcel Communications Sign up for your FREE EMAIL account today at http://www.mailroom.com Give your FAX machine an email address http://www.faxroom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 10:50:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A139814DD9 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 10:50:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12489; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:50:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.8.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id MAA17392; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:50:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id MAA19102; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:50:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:50:22 -0600 (CST) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199911211850.MAA19102@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Source isolated at COMDEX (Was: About: FreeBSD at COMDEX) X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >This agenda is not lost on businesspeople who are considering the use >of open source software. In fact, many do not realize that there are open >source solutions (such as FreeBSD) which are NOT licensed under the GPL's >"poison pill" license, and so reject open source altogether. Actually, you are right, the GPL is not lost on business people. Sad to say, of them actually choose to use GPL'd software as a competitive weapon -- their theory is that by releasing GPL software, they kill the competition, since the competition won't be able to "privately leverage" the changes. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 11: 5: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F6014DD9 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: from ska.bsn (beefcake.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.12]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA19999; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:11:48 +1100 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA56239; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:19:44 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199911211919.GAA56239@ska.bsn> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:19:41 +1100 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: Video Stupidity To: David Scheidt Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > atrn@zeta.org.au wrote: > >> Brett Glass wrote: >> > have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? >> >> There are such beasts and have been for years. Mine has stereo > > Is it a Sony? Sure is. -- Andy Newman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 11:36:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A83C14A18 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:36:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25450; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:36:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121123239.04771d00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:36:08 -0700 To: atrn@zeta.org.au, David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Video Stupidity Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911211919.GAA56239@ska.bsn> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just found a reference to the ONLY portable cassette recorder that Sony claims to make. It's at http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/portable/walkmanrtmstereos/walkmanrtmrecordingstereos/wm-d6c.shtml Would you pay $400 for a recorder? I cannot find any dealer that carries it, and for good reason. I doubt they make very many, IF ANY AT ALL. (It may not really be available.) The presence of the model in their catalog may be an attempt to get other vendors to likewise price their recorders out of the market. --Brett At 06:19 AM 11/22/1999 +1100, atrn@zeta.org.au wrote: >David Scheidt wrote: > > atrn@zeta.org.au wrote: > > > >> Brett Glass wrote: > >> > have you ever noticed that there are no Walkmen that record? > >> > >> There are such beasts and have been for years. Mine has stereo > > > > Is it a Sony? > >Sure is. > > >-- >Andy Newman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 12:19:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C24C14E2B for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from ragnet.demon.co.uk ([158.152.46.40]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11pdSG-000HnU-0A; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:19:25 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 11pdP4-000Lhi-00; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:16:06 +0000 Content-Length: 924 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121123239.04771d00@localhost> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:16:06 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Video Stupidity Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, David Scheidt , atrn@zeta.org.au Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Nov-99 Brett Glass wrote: > I just found a reference to the ONLY portable cassette recorder > that Sony claims to make. It's at > > http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/portable/walkmanrtmstereos/walkmanrtm > recordingstereos/wm-d6c.shtml > > Would you pay $400 for a recorder? I cannot find any dealer that > carries it, and for good reason. I doubt they make very many, > IF ANY AT ALL. (It may not really be available.) Brett, I have personally bought 3 of an earlier version of these for a student radio station. They are designed to be used as portable recording equiment by professionals. See my other response. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 12:20:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B541581C for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:20:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from ragnet.demon.co.uk ([158.152.46.40]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11pdSp-000HoT-0A; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:19:59 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 3.03 #1) id 11pdMa-000Lhd-00; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:13:32 +0000 Content-Length: 1894 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121104825.0481ab30@localhost> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:13:31 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Video Stupidity Cc: chat@freebsd.org, atrn@zeta.org.au Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Nov-99 Brett Glass wrote: > Actually, as I recall, Sony was said to have ONE -- count it -- > ONE recording Walkman. But the only references I could find to > it said that it was priced at something like 5x the cost of a > player -- even though the cost of adding recording was obviously > nowhere near that. So, no one carried it. > By coincidence, this weekend I was looking to buy a new hi-fi and have a copy of the current UK Sony brochure. In the first few pages, there is a little potted history of the Walkman. The walkman was conceived by Sony's Hon. Chairman whilst travelling, he apparently wanted a "playback-only stereo version of the Pressman for his long bussiness flights". I think that sums the idea up. Sony have always made portable, recording cassette recorders. These a PRO audio kit, designed for journalists etc. They happen to be excellent as home hifi, I know of a number of people who use the Sony Pro Walkmans as their only cassette decks. Currently listed Walkmen that can record: WM-GX414 (includes FM/AM radio etc.) WM-D6C (mic and line in jacks, the professional part) > Sony had -- and has -- a vested interest in discouraging anyone > from buying a device that can record music without copy protection, > and this is one way they try to enforce it. ***ks, Brett, are any of the Sony cassette decks restricted to play-back only? These are the products much more suited to copying material from a variety of audio sources. The Walkman is simply a product that fulfils what the majority of people buying one want - personal music playback. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 12:59:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B3A14E67 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:59:17 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jonathon McKitrick" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:59:17 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf3463$4661e290$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19991120202859.0452b930@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 04:49 PM 11/16/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Show me a competitor that he has 'shut down' without > having a better > >product to compete with it. Show me one. Please. > > Digital Research. Stac. Quarterdeck. Netscape. Shall I go on? > > --Brett Glass Windows 98's disk compression is better than Stac's. Windows 98's memory management is better than Quaterdeck's. IE is a better browser than Netscape's (and Netscape has hardly shut down). DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 12:59:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F62214E78 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:59:19 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Phil Regnauld" Cc: Subject: RE: Marketing vs. technical superiority (was: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit") Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:59:18 -0800 Message-ID: <001101bf3463$470d8be0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19991120215941.0424c2a0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 02:52 AM 11/19/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > The allegations that Microsoft raises prices when it > achieves market > >domination are clearly false, at least for the most rigorous > studies of the > >US market to date. (See Liebowitz and Margolis, for example) > > Liebowitz and Margolis are both paid, handsomely, by Microsoft to produce > so-called "scholarly" papers that support its current marketing and/or > legal spin. The fact that you cite them at all strengthens my conviction > that you are being paid by Microsoft to troll this list. > > --Brett Glass Do you have any evidence to support the claim that Liebowitz and Margolis distorted their results in any way? (Other than that you disagree with them.) Or is this more of your now famous ad hominem? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 15: 2:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D05A714E47 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:02:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.44.193]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLK00C02LAWKO@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:01:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01691; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:48:10 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:48:10 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Bull (Was: Re: Open Source isolated...) In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19991121105858.0479a450@localhost> To: Brett Glass Cc: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snip] ... >>Now is the time for FreeBSD to start thinking >>of change, because the world is changing. All the pieces are in the >>right place RIGHT NOW, for you to become widely known. Use them, or >>die. > >The open threat in the above paragraph -- not exactly the "love and >flowers" attitude you claimed earlier in your message -- betrays >the true attitude behind the GPL and the FSF. Has anyone considered that now might be the time to stop associating ourselves with the open source "movement" -- or any movement, for that matter, and simply present ourselves as a viable peer of the commercial operating systems? Presenting ourselves as the production refinement of the research that finished in the 80's at Berkley seems a much better (and salable) spin than presenting ourselves as 'more open' than Linux or squabbling over licensing and the desktop. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 16:45: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BF914C20 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:45:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:45:04 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:45:03 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf3482$d08ce270$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991120195344.0452f8d0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See Brett, you're as good at reasoning as you are at slander. > At 12:18 PM 11/16/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > >Right, this is progress. If you want the features of Kodak > >Advantix, you > >need an Advantix camera. And that means you need Advantix film. And of > >course, your film processor needs a machine that can process > >that film. To > >get the advantages of newer technological developments, you need a new > >everything. This is really evidence that Microsoft does not operate by > >locking people into inferior developments but actually by continually > >reinventing its products to keep them leading edge. > > Ironically, you've picked an example that proves exactly the opposite. > As any photographer or photofinisher can tell you, Advantix has no > significant technological advantages over good old 35mm film -- just > a few gimmicks. The real reasons Kodak introduced Advantix were as > follows: I suppose it depends upon what you mean by 'significant'. While Advantix is not exactly revolutionary, it provides several advantages over normal 35 millimeter film. Many of them don't particularly help professionals, but they do help amateurs. For one thing, Advantix film's loading is foolproof. A lot of amateurs have thought that they were shooting film when actually the film wasn't loaded all along. Anyone whose lost a one-time oppurtunity to capture something important to them on film knows how annoying this can be. Advantix also offers an indicator on the roll to let you know if the film is unexposed, partially exposed, or fully exposed. Many Advantix cameras offer 'mid roll change', allowing you to easily change rolls of film even if they are partially exposed. With a 35mm camera, if you put in ASA800 film and then need to take a few shots at ASA100, you're pretty much screwed. I'll leave it up to you to determine how significant these features are. They're not exactly groundbreaking or revolutionary, but I would say that they are significant. > (a) To recapture a larger share of the photofinishing market just > before selling off its photofinishing business. This maximized the > price it could ask when it spun off Kodalux. The Advantix cartridges > had a few features which were patented, as well as other quirks which > made them incompatible with existing processing equipment. None of > these made the product significantly better. But because of the > patents, Kodak could either bar other photofinishers from processing > the film or charge them high prices for equipment that was compatible. > > (b) To increase its market share in the film business by preventing > other film manufacturers from making the film. (Or, again, to charge > those manufacturers royalties on every Advantix cartridge they shipped.) > > (c) To drive makers of competitive photofinishing equipment (including > minilabs) out of the market by refusing to let them make > Advantix-compatible equipment. Alternatively, Kodak could charge them > big bucks for the "privilege," sapping their profits. > > Consumers suffered as a result of all of these tactics. Our local photo > shop, which had a Norita minilab, couldn't do Advantix film, and so had > to ship the film to someone with expensive Kodak equipment -- usually > Kodak's own Kodalux division -- for processing. Not only did this cost > more; it was far slower than the one-hour service we could get on 35mm > film. The photo shops were hurt as well; their inability to use their > existing equipment on Advantix film cost them business. > > With all of these drawbacks, and only trivial advantages, how did Kodak > get consumers to adopt the Advantix film format? Simple: They dumped > cameras, just as Microsoft dumped IE. Kodak even paid camera > manufacturers to bring out Advantix cameras, just as Microsoft paid ISPs > to force their users to use IE. In other words, we are all lock into 35mm film, cameras, and processing. Kodak attempts to break this lock in, and you condemn it. Whose side are you on? I thought lock in to inferior technologies was the problem here. Assume for the moment that Advantix is superior to 35mm film. Assume further that we are somehow 'locked into' 35mm film due to tipping effects. (I won't buy an Advantix camera, even though it's better, because I can't get the film processed nearby. And my nearby photo store won't buy an Advantix film developer because no one has Advantix cameras. And so on.) Obviously, these network effects would be costing Kodak money. If it could break the lock in, and lock us all into Advantix instead, Kodak would be better off. And (in this hypothetical), so would we, because Advantix is assumed superior to 35mm. The way to break the lock in is simple -- at least for a little while, you subsidize the superior technology -- enough to break the lock in but not so much that is exceeds the additional value of the technology. The idea is, by breaking the lock in, you can reap the lost profit oppurtunity that the superior technology represents. Note that there is no advantage whatsoever to these tactics unless the technology for which you are breaking the lock in is superior. If not, there are no profits to obtain. The only money that can be made is the difference between the value of what we are using now and the value of the technology you are offering. If the offered technology is less valuable than what it replaces, there is no advantage to the attempt at replacement. This is consistent with the clear market data which shows that Microsoft's attempts to promote IE were unsuccessful until IE reached feature partity with Netscape. So the very tactics you are complaining about are the only ones that can break a lock in situation. If you don't like lock in, support the tactics that defeat it. > Kodak's tactics were unethical in that they manipulated markets and hurt > consumers. And most likely illegal even in the absence of a monopoly. Hurt consumers? How so? How does breaking lock in affects hurt consumers? Actually, consumers benefit by having lock in broken by subsidy. This allows consumers to garner sufficient coordination to switch to a superior technology. It's these exact types of processes that helped us all move from Apples to PCs, from 16-bit machines to 32-bit machines, and so on. As for illegal, perhaps so. But this indicates that the law makes it very difficult for companies with genuinely superior products to overcome network effects. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 16:51:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D40914C20 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:51:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from localhost.hell.gr (patr530-a014.otenet.gr [195.167.115.14]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA09260 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:51:23 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 1678 invoked by uid 1001); 21 Nov 1999 13:44:51 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Marketing vs. technical superiority (was: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit") References: <000001bf3313$1ee4ce90$021d85d1@youwant.to> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 21 Nov 1999 15:44:50 +0200 In-Reply-To: "David Schwartz"'s message of "Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:53:00 -0800" Message-ID: <863du0arhp.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > Do you understand what 'empirical evidence' is? What happened to you > personally, or how your Aunt Edna feels is not empirical evidence of a > market trend. True, admittedly very true. But it does matter what your boss thinks, and if you get thim to have that 'send as html' checked out in his Outlook configuration, that's a great step towards collaboration :-) Oh, and a few others, like wrapping at 70-75 characters perhaps, or even using that 'attachment' thingy instead of just pasting huge documents inline in every message, and so on... that certainly is empirical enough to help both of you get along with each other nicely. -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 16:52:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A6714C20 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from localhost.hell.gr (patr530-a014.otenet.gr [195.167.115.14]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA10426 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:52:38 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 1670 invoked by uid 1001); 21 Nov 1999 13:39:23 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: NT reliability (was: Microsoft service packs... (was many otherthreads...)) References: <002601bf3311$ead8a370$021d85d1@youwant.to> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 21 Nov 1999 15:39:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: "David Schwartz"'s message of "Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:44:23 -0800" Message-ID: <8666ywarqs.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > > Today Chris Piazza wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 01:57:47PM -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > > > > It doesn't seem to be possible to stop and start interfaces on NT; > > > > instead, you reboot. Not what I would expect of any good OS, let > > > > > > FWIW, Windows 2000 can do this fine. It only took a few years ;-). > > > > Can it add and remove alias IPs on interfaces without the reboot > > that NT needs? > > I don't know if it's a new service pack thing or what, but I've > noticed that more and more of my NT servers _don't_ need reboots for > that. They do drop all current TCP connections, but then they're back > up just fine. It's a pain to disconnect everyone who happened to be > doing anything, but it's less painful than a reboot. Takes less time too, one should note. > > It scares me though, because I have no idea why sometimes it works now > (like the last 4 times I did it) when it never used to. Fear not. Many many generations of Unixers have lived with interfaces that can come and go without rebooting. They survived ;-) -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17: 8:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6FB14ECA for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:08:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27994; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:07:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121161740.04723a90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:25:56 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Jonathon McKitrick" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: In-Reply-To: <001001bf3463$4661e290$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991120202859.0452b930@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:59 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > Windows 98's disk compression is better than Stac's. Stac doesn't do disk compression for Windows 98, so the above is absurd. However, Stacker -- when it was made -- beat the pants off of DoubleSpace, especially as far as reliability was concerned. DoubleSpace was known to corrupt users' disks, as Microsoft ultimately admitted. >Windows 98's memory management is better than Quaterdeck's. Again, a disingenuous comparison. QEMM did not do the same sort of memory management as Windows 98. Microsoft's EMM386 -- the correct program to which one should compare QEMM -- was markedly inferior, and supplanted QEMM only because it was free. Microsoft likewise bundled Helix's optimizer for free so as to kill Quarterdeck's best-selling product and thus prevent DESQview and DESQview/X from ever challenging Windows. >IE is a better browser than Netscape's Not so, especially from a security standpoint. IE is riddled with DANGEROUS security problems. Alas, Netscape was shut down by Microsoft's predatory tactics. The shell of the company was bought by AOL, primarily for its portal and peripherally so that AOL could avoid total dependence on Microsoft's browser by keeping Navigator barely alive. One can only wonder how much Microsoft is paying you to spew such nonsense on this list. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:12:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 441F314EF1 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:12:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28040; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:11:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121180936.0471e490@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:11:42 -0700 To: Duncan Barclay From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Video Stupidity Cc: chat@freebsd.org, atrn@zeta.org.au In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991121104825.0481ab30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:13 PM 11/21/1999 +0000, Duncan Barclay wrote: >The Walkman is simply a product that fulfils what the majority of >people buying one want - personal music playback. Many people want recorders, but have trouble finding them. A portable recorder isn't a "professional" item -- in fact, the ultra-high-priced recording model that Sony does offer is part of their consumer line, not their pro line. Again, the ridiculous price seems to be motivated by a desire to prevent the copying of content. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:17: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A378C1587E for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:16:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28087; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:16:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121181156.047209f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:16:38 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" , "Phil Regnauld" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Marketing vs. technical superiority (was: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit") Cc: In-Reply-To: <001101bf3463$470d8be0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991120215941.0424c2a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:59 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > Do you have any evidence to support the claim that Liebowitz and Margolis >distorted their results in any way? Read them. Their writings don't just toe the Microsoft party line; they make patently ridiculous statements so as to do so. What's more, the authors are paid handsomely by Microsoft, and flown all over the country, to present Microsoft's corporate PR party line. Liebowitz, who works at UT Austin, has even instituted courses on subjects such as Web page design which INTENTIONALLY EXCLUDE information on non-Microsoft products and on cross-platform compatibility. In particular, the Web page design course omitted Java and JavaScript, focusing instead on the use of VBScript, ASPs, and FrontPage (which is designed to format content so that it cannot be displayed properly by other browsers. He even placed Microsoft advertisements on University-funded Web pages. In short, he's a Microsoft PR flack -- just as you appear to be. --Brett GLass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:24:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB1314F53 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:24:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:24:22 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:24:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf3488$4e7573a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121161740.04723a90@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:59 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Windows 98's disk compression is better than Stac's. > > Stac doesn't do disk compression for Windows 98, so the above > is absurd. Err, right. That's why Stac is out of the market. If they provided a superior product for the operating systems that people wanted to use, they'd still be here. > However, Stacker -- when it was made -- beat > the pants off of DoubleSpace, especially as far as reliability > was concerned. DoubleSpace was known to corrupt users' disks, > as Microsoft ultimately admitted. Right. That's why it had a market, for awhile. > >Windows 98's memory management is better than Quaterdeck's. > > Again, a disingenuous comparison. QEMM did not do the same sort of > memory management as Windows 98. Right. That's exactly my point. > Microsoft's EMM386 -- the correct > program to which one should compare QEMM -- was markedly inferior, > and supplanted QEMM only because it was free. Right, but QEMM still survived, because it was superior. It would let you cram many more bytes out of your box than anything Microsoft had. But, of course, technology moved on. It became obsolete. > Microsoft likewise > bundled Helix's optimizer for free so as to kill Quarterdeck's > best-selling product and thus prevent DESQview and DESQview/X from > ever challenging Windows. I don't understand this argument. Sometimes leverage is bad, sometimes it's good. And you change off how it suits you. If Microsoft using Windows to leverage IE is bad, why is Quarterdeck using QEMM to leverage DESQview good? > >IE is a better browser than Netscape's > > Not so, especially from a security standpoint. IE is riddled with > DANGEROUS security problems. You are the only one who thinks this. Pretty much everybrowser shootout since the respective 4.0 products were released has been won by IE. If you don't like ActiveX (which I personally don't), you can turn it off (which I don't either, *sigh). > Alas, Netscape was shut down by Microsoft's predatory tactics. The > shell of the company was bought by AOL, primarily for its portal > and peripherally so that AOL could avoid total dependence on > Microsoft's browser by keeping Navigator barely alive. Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. It had everything to do with IE being a better browser. And as I explained, using predatory tactics to replace a superior product with an inferior one gains nothing. The onlything a predator has to gain is the difference in value between the two products. If IE is worth less than Netscape, Microsoft's takeover would net it a loss. > One can only wonder how much Microsoft is paying you to spew such > nonsense on this list. You are the master of ad hominem, Brett. If you'd like, write out any sort of statement that says that Microsoft has never paid for me any public statement I have made. Mail it to: David Schwartz 1455-E Foxworth Avenue, PMB 118 San Jose, CA 95118 I will sign it, notorize it, and mail it back to you. I would also suggest you stop the slander here. In my capacity as Director of Software Development for WebMaster, Incorporated, I sometimes have to recommend various platforms to my customers. If people believed your nonsense, that could compromise my ability to do that. And it wouldn't surprise me if investigation into legal action would follow. So if you wish to continue to raise this allegation, I strongly suggest you back it up with evidence. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:27:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E80E1585D for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:27:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28173; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:27:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121182151.0471cc20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:27:07 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: In-Reply-To: <000001bf3482$d08ce270$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991120195344.0452f8d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:45 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > I suppose it depends upon what you mean by 'significant'. While Advantix is >not exactly revolutionary, it provides several advantages over normal 35 >millimeter film. None that matter. > For one thing, Advantix film's loading is foolproof. So is 35mm loading on the latest consumer 35mm cameras. > Advantix also offers an indicator on the roll to let you know if the film >is unexposed, partially exposed, or fully exposed. Many Advantix cameras >offer 'mid roll change', allowing you to easily change rolls of film even if >they are partially exposed. With a 35mm camera, if you put in ASA800 film >and then need to take a few shots at ASA100, you're pretty much screwed. 35mm cameras offer roll changing features as well. > In other words, we are all lock into 35mm film, cameras, and processing. Nonsense. There's no lock-in with 35mm, because 35mm is a readily available multi-sourced commodity. Exactly what Gates & Co. live in terror of seeing in the operating system world. See the many memos presented in the DOJ case, as well as the Judge's brilliant Findings of Fact. Most of the rest of your message is based on the false premise you state above, and hence is nothing but gibberish. This is a common tactic of the "moles" which Microsoft sends into online discussions: like the infamous "Barkto," they care not if they make sense. > > Kodak's tactics were unethical in that they manipulated markets and hurt > > consumers. And most likely illegal even in the absence of a monopoly. > > Hurt consumers? How so? By deceiving them into buying into a system which in fact cost them more and limited their choices. Just like Microsoft. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:27:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCAB15861 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28170; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:27:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121181653.04721360@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:21:04 -0700 To: Jay Nelson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bull (Was: Re: Open Source isolated...) Cc: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991121105858.0479a450@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:48 PM 11/21/1999 -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: >Has anyone considered that now might be the time to stop associating >ourselves with the open source "movement" -- or any movement, for that >matter, and simply present ourselves as a viable peer of the >commercial operating systems? BSD was around before there was anything called the "open source movement," and will continue to be around once the fad passes. However, it still pays to emphasize the value that's inherent in the fact that the source IS open. >Presenting ourselves as the production >refinement of the research that finished in the 80's at Berkley seems >a much better (and salable) spin than presenting ourselves as 'more >open' than Linux Both are important. It's especially important to stress the advantages of BSD to embedded systems developers. >or squabbling over licensing and the desktop. It doesn't pay to "squabble;" however, it is important to point out the trap that's built into GPLed software. This is a distinguishing factor whose value will grow with time. As for the desktop: BSD can and should offer solutions for it, as any OS should. Remember: people want to use the same OS on the client and on the server. If you do only one, you won't present good value to the user. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:31:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5C11594A for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:31:16 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Marketing vs. technical superiority (was: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit") Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:31:16 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf3489$45438500$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121181156.047209f0@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 12:59 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Do you have any evidence to support the claim that > Liebowitz and Margolis > >distorted their results in any way? > > Read them. Their writings don't just toe the Microsoft party > line; they make > patently ridiculous statements so as to do so. In other words, they disagree with you. In your opinion, anyone who disagrees with you is making "patently ridiculous statments" and the only question is who paid them to do so. > What's more, the authors are paid handsomely by Microsoft, and > flown all over > the country, to present Microsoft's corporate PR party line. I'm not going to dispute that with you. It may or may not be true (personally, I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me). But it doesn't prove that they distorted their results in any way, does it? > Liebowitz, who works at UT Austin, has even instituted courses on subjects > such as Web page design which INTENTIONALLY EXCLUDE information > on non-Microsoft > products and on cross-platform compatibility. In particular, the > Web page design > course omitted Java and JavaScript, focusing instead on the use > of VBScript, > ASPs, and FrontPage (which is designed to format content so that it cannot > be displayed properly by other browsers. And you, I'm sure, would do the reverse. Does this prove that you are on Sun's payroll? Would you teach VBScript or ASP? If I gave such a course, I'd cover the HTML standard, JavaScript, and a bit of Java. I wouldn't cover ASP at all. I don't think I'd cover VBScript either. This is simply because I despise them. I wouldn't cover DHTML either, but for a different reason -- I like DHTML, but I don't think it's achieved enough market penetration yet to be useful. Liebowitz does the reverse. What does this prove? > He even placed Microsoft advertisements on University-funded Web pages. What kind of 'advertisements' are these? > In short, he's a Microsoft PR flack -- just as you appear to be. You have shown no evidence whatsoever that any of his statements are factually inaccurate. You have not shown any evidence whatsoever that his results were distorted in any way. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:42:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4D114C88 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:42:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:42:48 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:42:48 -0800 Message-ID: <000501bf348a$e1aa2a60$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121182151.0471cc20@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In other words, we are all lock into 35mm film, > cameras, and processing. > > Nonsense. There's no lock-in with 35mm, because 35mm is a readily > available multi-sourced commodity. Lock in has nothing whatsoever to do with availability or sourcing. Actually, the most available products are the ones we are most likely to be locked in to. Part of the reason we are so locked into PC compatables (and part of the reason for the success of the platform) is that it was widely cloned and improved upon. Any 'superior' platform that tries to replace the PC will have to combat this lock in. It's ability to do so will depend upon many factors, including primarily how superior it is. Theoretically, all you need for lock in is some benefit to compatability. So it can apply to pretty much any standard. Not all lock in is harmful. If we all benefit from using the same size film, then that's beneficial lock in. If we all benefit from having the same processor architecture, then that's beneficial lock in. There's only a problem when some superior product has to 'climb uphill' to break the lock in. The benefit to breaking the lock in is the total additional value that the superior technology provides over the current technology summed over all users. This benefit is the maximum that can be reaped by whoever manages to break the lock in. Suppose I developed a product today that was superior to Microsoft Office. Suppose it was so superior that in combination of how much less I could charge or how much more people were willing to pay, I could get $10 more for it (per copy) than Microsoft could. I might have to face some lock in -- people like the compatability of Microsoft Office. So I'd have to do something to get off the ground. Perhaps I could offer it to people who already have Microsoft Office for just $10. Perhaps I could give it away for free to help build critical mass. If I can find some way to break that compatability barrier, consumers can reap that extra value my product provides. I may not reap that benefit. Microsoft could just lower their price $10, or add the features that I provide. But consumers are sure to get it either way, either from me or from Microsoft. From a public policy standpoint, we shouldn't care which. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:48:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7952C14EFA for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28353; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:48:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121182842.0471cd10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:48:37 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: In-Reply-To: <000001bf3488$4e7573a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991121161740.04723a90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:24 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > Stac doesn't do disk compression for Windows 98, so the above > > is absurd. > > Err, right. That's why Stac is out of the market. If they provided a >superior product for the operating systems that people wanted to use, they'd >still be here. Bull. They were killed by predatory pricing. Technological superiority makes little difference when an inferior product is free -- as we've seen in the cases of Netscape, Stac, Quarterdeck, and others. > > Again, a disingenuous comparison. QEMM did not do the same sort of > > memory management as Windows 98. > > Right. That's exactly my point. In that case, you've mysteriously changed your "point" since your previous message. > > Microsoft's EMM386 -- the correct > > program to which one should compare QEMM -- was markedly inferior, > > and supplanted QEMM only because it was free. > > Right, but QEMM still survived, because it was superior. QEMM was still sold for awhile, but not in sufficient volume to sustain the company. Its empty shell was bought by Symantec. Microsoft drove Quarterdeck out of business. > > Microsoft likewise > > bundled Helix's optimizer for free so as to kill Quarterdeck's > > best-selling product and thus prevent DESQview and DESQview/X from > > ever challenging Windows. > > I don't understand this argument. Sometimes leverage is bad, sometimes it's >good. Non sequitur. >And you change off how it suits you. If Microsoft using Windows to >leverage IE is bad, why is Quarterdeck using QEMM to leverage DESQview good? Netscape eventually expected to make a profit from DESQview. Microsoft simply wanted to put Netscape out of business. And Microsoft was (and is!) a monopoly. Monopoly leverage is illegal. >> Not so, especially from a security standpoint. IE is riddled with > > DANGEROUS security problems. > > You are the only one who thinks this. Geeze, now I *really* wonder what you've been smoking. If there was previously any doubt that you are being paid by Microsoft to natter in and disrupt this forum, the above surely removes it. > > Alas, Netscape was shut down by Microsoft's predatory tactics. The > > shell of the company was bought by AOL, primarily for its portal > > and peripherally so that AOL could avoid total dependence on > > Microsoft's browser by keeping Navigator barely alive. > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. It had everything to >do with IE being a better browser. Utter nonsense. Again, read the judge's Findings of Fact. >And as I explained, using predatory >tactics to replace a superior product with an inferior one gains nothing. Bull. In Microsoft's case, it preserved the applications barrier to entry. >The onlything a predator has to gain is the difference in value between the >two products. Utter nonsense, again. What Microsoft had to gain was the maintenance of its monopoly and of barriers to entry in the OS market. > You are the master of ad hominem, Brett. If you'd like, write out any sort >of statement that says that Microsoft has never paid for me any public >statement I have made. Mail it to: > > David Schwartz > 1455-E Foxworth Avenue, PMB 118 > San Jose, CA 95118 > > I will sign it, notorize it, and mail it back to you. I wouldn't believe you even if you did this. > I would also suggest you stop the slander here. In my capacity as Director >of Software Development for WebMaster, Incorporated, I sometimes have to >recommend various platforms to my customers. If people believed your >nonsense, that could compromise my ability to do that. And it wouldn't >surprise me if investigation into legal action would follow. > > So if you wish to continue to raise this allegation, I strongly suggest you >back it up with evidence. People will always judge for themselves, of course. But I'd say that you're making a far better case, via your own postings, than I ever POSSIBLY could. It's you who are irreparably damaging your reputation, not me. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 17:50:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A1AC14EFA for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28384; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:50:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121184907.04724520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:50:04 -0700 To: "David Schwartz" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: In-Reply-To: <000501bf348a$e1aa2a60$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <4.2.0.58.19991121182151.0471cc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:42 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > Lock in has nothing whatsoever to do with availability or sourcing. Nonsense. It's the essence of it. Again, you're destroying your own reputation via weak and disingenuous arguments. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 18:15:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5DD14DAF for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:15:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:15:35 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:15:34 -0800 Message-ID: <000601bf348f$75b754e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121182842.0471cd10@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 05:24 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > Stac doesn't do disk compression for Windows 98, so the above > > > is absurd. > > > > Err, right. That's why Stac is out of the market. If > they provided a > >superior product for the operating systems that people wanted to > use, they'd > >still be here. > > Bull. They were killed by predatory pricing. Technological superiority > makes little difference when an inferior product is free -- as we've > seen in the cases of Netscape, Stac, Quarterdeck, and others. Price is one of the factors that you have to compare when you determine if something is superior or not. Obviously, we could all have superior computers if price weren't a factor. If the 'inferior' product is cheaper than the 'superior' product, and this price difference overwhelms any feature difference, then it's obvious which product is really superior. And it really doesn't matter to the consumer who provides it (at least, from an antitrust standpoint). So long as the consumer gets the benefit, then all is well. > > > Again, a disingenuous comparison. QEMM did not do the same sort of > > > memory management as Windows 98. > > > > Right. That's exactly my point. > > In that case, you've mysteriously changed your "point" since your > previous message. My point is that consumers have gained the benefits of all of these products. When a competitor points out a deficiency in a Microsoft product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency. This is one way consumers benefit from 'failed' competition. > > > Microsoft's EMM386 -- the correct > > > program to which one should compare QEMM -- was markedly inferior, > > > and supplanted QEMM only because it was free. > > > > Right, but QEMM still survived, because it was superior. > > QEMM was still sold for awhile, but not in sufficient volume to sustain > the company. Its empty shell was bought by Symantec. Microsoft drove > Quarterdeck out of business. Right, by providing a better combination of costs and features. Consumers reaped the benefit of this competition, as they are supposed to. Antitrust law does not protect competitors. > > > Microsoft likewise > > > bundled Helix's optimizer for free so as to kill Quarterdeck's > > > best-selling product and thus prevent DESQview and DESQview/X from > > > ever challenging Windows. > > > > I don't understand this argument. Sometimes leverage is > bad, sometimes it's > >good. > > Non sequitur. > > >And you change off how it suits you. If Microsoft using Windows to > >leverage IE is bad, why is Quarterdeck using QEMM to leverage > DESQview good? > > Netscape eventually expected to make a profit from DESQview. Microsoft > simply wanted to put Netscape out of business. And Microsoft was > (and is!) a monopoly. Monopoly leverage is illegal. Are you saying that Microsoft has no intention of making a profit from IE? If so, what's their goal? > >> Not so, especially from a security standpoint. IE is riddled with > > > DANGEROUS security problems. > > > > You are the only one who thinks this. > > Geeze, now I *really* wonder what you've been smoking. If there was > previously any doubt that you are being paid by Microsoft to natter > in and disrupt this forum, the above surely removes it. Please, show me the browser shootouts that conclude, "In our opinion, IE is inferior to Netscape due to its myriad security problems". Put up or shut up. And please, stop the slander. > > > Alas, Netscape was shut down by Microsoft's predatory tactics. The > > > shell of the company was bought by AOL, primarily for its portal > > > and peripherally so that AOL could avoid total dependence on > > > Microsoft's browser by keeping Navigator barely alive. > > > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. > It had everything to > >do with IE being a better browser. > > Utter nonsense. Again, read the judge's Findings of Fact. I have. Remember, that was the starting point. > >And as I explained, using predatory > >tactics to replace a superior product with an inferior one gains nothing. > > Bull. In Microsoft's case, it preserved the applications barrier to entry. What do you mean by "applications barrier to entry"? > >The onlything a predator has to gain is the difference in value > between the > >two products. > > Utter nonsense, again. What Microsoft had to gain was the > maintenance of its > monopoly and of barriers to entry in the OS market. *sigh* I don't think you're even listening. Where are the barriers to entry in the OS market? What stopped FreeBSD? What stopped Linux? > > You are the master of ad hominem, Brett. If you'd like, > write out any sort > >of statement that says that Microsoft has never paid for me any public > >statement I have made. Mail it to: > > > > David Schwartz > > 1455-E Foxworth Avenue, PMB 118 > > San Jose, CA 95118 > > > > I will sign it, notorize it, and mail it back to you. > > I wouldn't believe you even if you did this. Right. No matter how much contrary evidence is slapped in your face, you are convinced that nobody could possibly disagree with you unless someone paid them to. > > I would also suggest you stop the slander here. In my > capacity as Director > >of Software Development for WebMaster, Incorporated, I sometimes have to > >recommend various platforms to my customers. If people believed your > >nonsense, that could compromise my ability to do that. And it wouldn't > >surprise me if investigation into legal action would follow. > > > > So if you wish to continue to raise this allegation, I > strongly suggest you > >back it up with evidence. > > People will always judge for themselves, of course. But I'd say > that you're making > a far better case, via your own postings, than I ever POSSIBLY > could. It's you > who are irreparably damaging your reputation, not me. Then I'll thank you to stop slandering me and to allow others to judge for themselves. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 18:31:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C3D14F9B for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.176]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FLK001H3V0O22@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:31:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02296; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:15:44 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:15:44 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Bull (Was: Re: Open Source isolated...) In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19991121181653.04721360@localhost> To: Brett Glass Cc: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 21 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >At 04:48 PM 11/21/1999 -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > >>Has anyone considered that now might be the time to stop associating >>ourselves with the open source "movement" -- or any movement, for that >>matter, and simply present ourselves as a viable peer of the >>commercial operating systems? > >BSD was around before there was anything called the "open source >movement," and will continue to be around once the fad passes. That is an important point -- and worthy of advocacy. BSD defined the internet. I don't know of _any_ commercial OS that doesn't use the technology defined and developed in the BSD distributions. (Mind you -- I'm not quit willing to concede that anything out of Redmond qualifies as an OS;) >However, it still pays to emphasize the value that's inherent >in the fact that the source IS open. That's an additional cookie -- not the meal. I think most commercial OS vendors already realize the benifit of the BSD distributions. They may not realize that the tradtion continues, even though UC closed it down. >>Presenting ourselves as the production >>refinement of the research that finished in the 80's at Berkley seems >>a much better (and salable) spin than presenting ourselves as 'more >>open' than Linux The biggest problem I've seen out in the world is that most people think that BSD is gone -- history. They don't realize that it's quite alive and well. They think Linux is the only inexpensive OS available. When they learn that BSD is alive and well -- and all the familiar tools work like the commercial OSs, they have a tendency to pay attention. They are not enamored of a free "Unix like OS" as much as they are interested in a real OS they can load and go without either purchasing hassles or big bucks out of pocket. >Both are important. It's especially important to stress the advantages >of BSD to embedded systems developers. The embedded developers also fall into the catagory of "didn't know it was alive." To be fair, they have a different set of values, and a full blown OS doesn't generally meet their needs. They would rather have Unix, but they are still conditioned to fitting an OS in 32K or less. >>or squabbling over licensing and the desktop. > >It doesn't pay to "squabble;" however, it is important to point out >the trap that's built into GPLed software. This is a distinguishing >factor whose value will grow with time. The corporations have plenty of legal maggots who will point out the pitfalls of the GPL. The point, though is important -- just not the selling point. >As for the desktop: BSD can and should offer solutions for it, as >any OS should. Remember: people want to use the same OS on the >client and on the server. If you do only one, you won't present >good value to the user. I disagree. If that were so, Solaris, AIX and HPUX would have failed. Instead, they dominate the commercial server world. Most professonals I've run into make a strong distinction between the "workstaton" and the server. On the workstation, they are stuck with Groupwise or Outlook -- they don't expect much. They get paged in the middle of the night, though, if the server goes down. The problem is making all these people realize that they can have on their desktop what they have in the server room. M$ is trying to convince them that they can have in the server room what they have on the desktop -- and most aren't buying it. My humble opinion (and send the holy flames to hell;) is that, if you want a desktop, focus on OpenLook -- since it is the _most_ familiar in the Unix world behind CDE. CDE is licensed, so not an option -- OpenLook is the window manager we can use that is most familiar to professionals. Most experienced Solaris admins that I've run into seem to gravitate to OpenLook as opposed to CDE. ('Course -- maybe they're ex SunOS folks -- never checked.) Needless to say, I think we should be catering to professonals rather than the Maudie Fricks of the world. Our strength is in the production end -- not the desktop. Only my humble opinion. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 18:33:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.xcelcom.com (mx1.xcelcom.com [216.42.43.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9F9214F9B for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:33:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from greyheart@fnmail.com) Received: from xcelcom.com ([216.42.43.9]) by mx1.xcelcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA27066; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:43:27 GMT Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:43:27 GMT From: greyheart@fnmail.com Message-Id: <199911220243.CAA27066@mx1.xcelcom.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: brett@lariat.org Subject: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 11:21:03AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:02 PM 11/21/1999 +0000, greyheart@fnmail.com wrote: > > Reading this article really pissed me off. The solutions are > >so obvious that I can't see why you're complaining about not having > >enough attention. > > Pray tell, please explain what "the solutions" are, and what problems > you believe that they solve. The problem I've heard for months in the FreeBSD lists: lack of attention. The solution: use GNU popularity for your own benefit. > >You asked for it! When you're leaving GNU aside, > >you're putting yourself aside. > > Not at all. The GPL -- and most especially Stallman's "Free" > Software Foundation (a misnomer because it actually "captures" > software rather than making it freely available) -- have very badly > hurt the open source community. (Note: Technically, GPLed software > is not open source, because the GPL does not meet the criteria for > an open source license enumerated at www.opensource.org. The GPL > discriminates against a field of endeavor -- the creation of > commercial and proprietary software -- and thus fails the test.) > > The GPL is an attempt to turn open source, which is a good thing, into a > weapon against legitimate businesses and against programmers' > livelihoods. It enforces Richard Stallman's 20+ year grudge against > anyone who would like to turn knowledge gleaned from academic research > into useful products. I could speak about it for hours, but I know you've listened the same stuff over and over again. I'll just make a real-life example: It's like I making a song. Since I'm not well known in the artistic media, I have no success at all, so I say: --"I'll give it to all the people I know." It happens that a famous singer hear it, take it and sing it. He makes millions, and he protects the song with the anti-piracy model that we're used to see in the music stuff. I make not a penny and my friends nor _myself_ can no longer hear my song. I've lost my song, my time, and my credit. And all this happened because I was unprotected. > This agenda is not lost on businesspeople who are considering the use > of open source software. In fact, many do not realize that there are open > source solutions (such as FreeBSD) which are NOT licensed under the GPL's > "poison pill" license, and so reject open source altogether. > > Perhaps this is why COMDEX segregated those "Linux loonies" in a separate > hall at COMDEX, under an entirely different trade show name. (I am told > that they WOULD NOT let open source vendors onto the main show floor.) > COMDEX saw Linux -- and alas, by association, all open source -- as a > movement that was antagonistic to business, as expressly stated in > Stallman's writings. So, they removed it from the sphere of those who > wanted to make money from their efforts. It's a shame that FreeBSD was > lumped in with it, as FreeBSD does not embrace Stallman's spiteful > agenda. It isn't like that. Business people take open source seriously, it's just that this is the beginning. I'm not in the business stuff, but I do get some magazines about business at job, and they speak about open source since a year or two ago. The most remarkable example of open source mixed in business stuff is RedHat. They are making millions with GNU/Linux, and the GPL didn't complain yet. You got to remember that there're people that don't understand what open source is, know nothing about computers, even less they've heard about GPL, so there's a way to go before open source get to the place where Microsoft is, so that's why we are at a second place. Remember that not long ago there was nothing in COMDEX about open source, and I mean NOTHING. It was all about Microsoft. GPL is the best way to make a project, commercial or not, open source. If I'd make commercial programs and I'd like to make it open source, I'd never use FreeBSD license. My company worked hard to make the program, I have employees that don't work for free, should I be happy droping the source for anybody to make money of it. I don't think so. On the other side, if I put the software under the GPL, I win in all senses. I'll have thousands of users and programmers around the world to make my project better than the original. Indeed, I'd have millions of persons using my program. > > Gnu people get to this stage not without efforts, with > >advocacy, with time, with money, with _love_ for computer. So they are > >where they are, with all the attention going for them. They already > >are conquering the world, though lot of people say something > >different. > > It sounds as if you've embraced Stallman's rhetoric, lock stock, and > barrel. Think critically, man! The entire "GNU" agenda is nothing > but spite against those who want to make money from what they do. > Can't you see that? I am open to anything (well, almost anything :) ), and I surely judged the whole FSF stuff early in my entering on GNU/Linux. My fist thought was: "Hey, but this GPL stuff wouldn't allow me to make money from my own efforts, and yet it will make somebody on X country to make money out of it!", and soon I discovered that both were false. I have some experience with "foundations" that make a lot of money out of people's ignorance, and I'm sure FSF isn't one of them. I just got to see Richard Stallman to make myself sure about it. So now I am sure that GPL protects me, and I feel comfortable with it. Yet, I'm not religious about this. I'll take what is more convenient for me at the time, so that's why I tried FreeBSD. And I really liked it, but soon I realiced the harm that it was doing to itself with its philosophycal believes, and got to move to a strongly ground. > > And there it is FreeBSD, a better, faster, and more stable OS, > >but with an attitude problem. > > While some of the people involved with FreeBSD do have attitude > problems (there are definitely some elitists in the bunch who should > come down off of their high horses), the same problems are rampant > in the GPL camp. Yes, it is. There're problems, like everything involving human beings. I didn't say GPL was perfect, I certainly don't expect FreeBSD to be perfect. > >Now is the time for FreeBSD to start thinking > >of change, because the world is changing. All the pieces are in the > >right place RIGHT NOW, for you to become widely known. Use them, or > >die. > > The open threat in the above paragraph -- not exactly the "love and > flowers" attitude you claimed earlier in your message -- betrays > the true attitude behind the GPL and the FSF. Ok, it was rude, but I didn't mean it. I'd rather use something like: "Use them or stay on the basement." I didn't say "_I_ will kill you". Seriously though, I'm not a preacher, I'm not in the "love and flowers" business. I don't want you to love your buddy next to you (although it would be a nice thing to do), I just want YOU to open your mind and forget about prejudices. It is hard, I know. I wouldn't like to be the only one in a room with a whole bunch of FreeBSD users, and say: "Hey, let's embrace GPL". But I think you all got to think what's better for your OS. Jimmy. --------------------------------------------------------------- This Message was Powered by Xcel Communications Sign up for your FREE EMAIL account today at http://www.mailroom.com Give your FAX machine an email address http://www.faxroom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 19:19:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0428614D45 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 19:19:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29246; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 20:18:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991121194758.04722b20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 19:54:51 -0700 To: Jay Nelson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bull (Was: Re: Open Source isolated...) Cc: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991121181653.04721360@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:15 PM 11/21/1999 -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: >>As for the desktop: BSD can and should offer solutions for it, as > >any OS should. Remember: people want to use the same OS on the > >client and on the server. If you do only one, you won't present > >good value to the user. > >I disagree. If that were so, Solaris, AIX and HPUX would have failed. >Instead, they dominate the commercial server world. Most professonals >I've run into make a strong distinction between the "workstaton" and >the server. On the workstation, they are stuck with Groupwise or >Outlook -- they don't expect much. They get paged in the middle of the >night, though, if the server goes down. All of those platforms also offer a desktop. It may not be used by EVERYONE, but this is a matter more of price, marketing, and (especially) the suite of available applications. UNIX platforms make fine desktop OSes. >The problem is making all these people realize that they can have on >their desktop what they have in the server room. M$ is trying to >convince them that they can have in the server room what they have on >the desktop -- and most aren't buying it. They're being led by the nose into it; that's what Windows 2000 is all about. But Windows 2000 has some nasties that they'll balk at. For instance, you can't run your DOS apps anymore. BSD actually has an edge here; you can still run them under BSDI's DOS emulator (which has been donated by the company for general use -- hurrah!). >My humble opinion (and send the holy flames to hell;) is that, if you >want a desktop, focus on OpenLook -- since it is the _most_ familiar >in the Unix world behind CDE. CDE is licensed, so not an option -- I have no problem with a commercial, licensed desktop so long as it is not overly expensive and is well maintained. >OpenLook is the window manager we can use that is most familiar to >professionals. Most experienced Solaris admins that I've run into seem >to gravitate to OpenLook as opposed to CDE. ('Course -- maybe they're >ex SunOS folks -- never checked.) Actually, Gosling's NeWS wasn't bad either. Too bad Sun kept such tight control of it that it never became popular. Now that McNealy is preaching "community source," maybe it'll see a resurgence if the source is opened. >Needless to say, I think we should be catering to professonals rather >than the Maudie Fricks of the world. Our strength is in the production >end -- not the desktop. Let's move from strength to strength. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 21 22:37:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us [165.29.134.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770101580C for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:37:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from erickw@taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us) Received: from localhost (erickw@localhost) by taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA21516; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:40:33 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 01:40:32 -0600 (CST) From: Erick White To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: M$ software costs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought it was "Fear leads to anger! Anger leads to HATE Hate leads to the Darkside err... Microsoft!" ---As repeated by Yoda Jedi Master and Programmer Your Friendly UNIX Advocate: Erick On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > Well, let's see... > > > > 65% off of software that is 80% complete when it ships? Sounds like a > > good deal to me... > > "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate... hate leads to using > Li^H^H^H Windows NT in mission critical systems." > > -Alfred > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 2:21:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B7F14D2C for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 02:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: from ska.bsn (beefcake.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.12]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15576; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:29:11 +1100 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA58357; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:37:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199911221037.VAA58357@ska.bsn> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:37:53 +1100 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: Video Stupidity To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991121123239.04771d00@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Would you pay $400 for a recorder? Certainly not. I paid $A155 (about $100 in real money :). $400 for a Nagra would be okay though. -- Andy Newman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 6:28: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ECA8152FF for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 06:28:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se) Received: from speedy.ludd.luth.se (pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.164]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05626; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:27:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199911221427.PAA05626@zed.ludd.luth.se> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: Message from Brett Glass of "Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:27:07 MST." <4.2.0.58.19991121182151.0471cc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:27:39 +0100 From: Mattias Pantzare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I suppose it depends upon what you mean by 'significant'. While Advantix is > >not exactly revolutionary, it provides several advantages over normal 35 > >millimeter film. > > None that matter. Not to you, but to me. I like to get the date and time on the _back_ of my photos. I like the way I get the negatives. > Nonsense. There's no lock-in with 35mm, because 35mm is a readily available > multi-sourced commodity. Exactly what Gates & Co. live in terror > of seeing in the operating system world. See the many memos presented > in the DOJ case, as well as the Judge's brilliant Findings of Fact. APS (that is the name of the format, _not_ advantrix) is sold by Fuji to. I have seen more ads from Fuji than from Kodak. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 9:34: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mindful.ttmedia.com (mindful.ttmedia.com [209.186.7.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BA36914C0A for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:33:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@ttmedia.com) Received: (qmail 17316 invoked from network); 22 Nov 1999 17:20:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ttmedia.com) (192.168.2.8) by 192.168.2.7 with SMTP; 22 Nov 1999 17:20:29 -0000 Message-ID: <38397E48.2EC310A0@ttmedia.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:32:56 -0600 From: Ben Schmitz Reply-To: neb@mindless.com Organization: Freezone Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Subscribe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5DB6CE93F398E1CC29A14E8D" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5DB6CE93F398E1CC29A14E8D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit subscribe neb@mindless.com -- ben schmitz webmaster The FreeZone Network ben@freezone.com v.312.705.3817 f.312.573.3810 http://freezone.com "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -- Voltaire --------------5DB6CE93F398E1CC29A14E8D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="ben.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Ben Schmitz Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ben.vcf" begin:vcard n:Schmitz;Ben tel;fax:312-597-3810 tel;home:Yeah Right!! 8^) tel;work:312-705-3817 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.freezone.com org:FreeZone Network version:2.1 email;internet:ben@ttmedia.com title:WebMaster adr;quoted-printable:;;730 North Franklin St.=0D=0ASuite 706;Chicago;Illinois;60610;USA fn:Ben Schmitz end:vcard --------------5DB6CE93F398E1CC29A14E8D-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 10:40: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316AB14BCC; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:39:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06175; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:39:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122113320.04602ec0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:39:30 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Xi Graphics drops all FreeBSD products Cc: jkh@cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to a message I received from Sales Administrator Cindy Miley of Xi Graphics this morning, Xi Graphics "no longer support[s] FreeBSD in our retail products." This would be very sad, if it's true, as it would mean that FreeBSD could not work with dozens of graphics controllers which Xi Graphics supports but XFree86 does not. It would also mean the end of multi- head and laptop support. All of Xi Graphics' products will still be available for Linux, according to their Web page. Sounds like some FreeBSD folks had better get out there, advocate, and MARKET. This is a major setback for the platform. --Brett Glass P.S. -- Note that while I'm copying this message to the "advocacy" list, I'm not subscribed to it -- so I won't see postings that are directed only to that list. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 10:56:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5045714BD5; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06375; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:55:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122114841.042cd950@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:55:01 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: False Alarm: Xi Graphics representative was mistaken! Cc: jkh@cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All: Fortunately, it turns out that the Xi Graphics representative who told me that they were dropping FreeBSD support was mistaken. Her original message to me said: >Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:18:31 -0700 >From: Cindy Miley >Reply-To: cindy@xig.com >Organization: Xi Graphics, Inc. >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Brett Glass >Subject: Re: Appian multi-head cards >References: <4.2.0.58.19991120173144.046389d0@localhost> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-UIDL: aca36a32b5f5c6d96690c6a7d42eaa10 > >Brett, > >Yes, we support several Appian stock cards. There is a list at >www.xig.com/Pages/MXCardsAppian.html for single-head support and >www.xig.com/Pages/MXCardsAppian.html for multi-head support. I am not >sure what she was referring to as far as a specially modified card. To >my knowledge, it would actually require custom development to support a >modified card. However, we no longer support BSD in our retail >products. We have been in discussions with BSDI about including >Accelerated-X on their next version, but I do not know if this will >actually happen. > >We do support several versions of Linux. Thank you for your interest in >Accelerated-X. Please let me know if you have any further questions. Since this message came from an official representative of the company, I took them at their word. But their representative apparently was mistaken: when I actually called the company to ask WHY they would have done such a thing, I was told that what was actually dropped was their X server for BSDI's BSD/OS. Whew. I apologize for the false alarm. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 11:44: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEDCC15979 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:43:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06880; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:43:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122123435.042bf850@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:43:36 -0700 To: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Your misconceptions about the GPL In-Reply-To: <199911220243.CAA27066@mx1.xcelcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:43 AM 11/22/1999 +0000, greyheart@fnmail.com wrote: > The problem I've heard for months in the FreeBSD lists: lack >of attention. The solution: use GNU popularity for your own benefit. Actually, it's not "GNU" that's popular, it's Linux -- and packages that are based on it -- that are popular. (Most of these packages do include some of the software generated by the "GNU" project, but also include even more generated by others -- e.g. Apache.) Stallman is attempting to use the popularity of Linux to promote his "GNU" agenda. He does so by trying to tack on the name of his project. onto the name "Linux." There's an old joke which says that the easiest way to become a leader is to find a parade, jump in front of it, and pretend that you're the leader. It may be the easiest way, but it involves deception. And that's unethical. > It's like I making a song. Since I'm not well known in the >artistic media, I have no success at all, so I say: --"I'll give it to >all the people I know." >It happens that a famous singer hear it, take >it and sing it. He makes millions, and he protects the song with the >anti-piracy model that we're used to see in the music stuff. I >make not a penny and my friends nor _myself_ can no longer hear my >song. >I've lost my song, my time, and my credit. And all this happened >because I was unprotected. The above displays your ignorance of copyright law. In realith, unpublished works are protected by copyright. > GPL is the best way to make a project, commercial or not, >open source. The GPL does not meet the criteria for an open source license. First, it discriminates against a field of endeavor: the creation of commercial software. Second, it requires a "fee" before you can distribute works based upon the software: namely, the forfeiture of the value of your own code. For both of these reasons, the GPL is not a legitimate open source license. >On the other side, if I put the software under the GPL, I win in all >senses. I'll have thousands of users and programmers around the world >to make my project better than the original. Indeed, I'd have millions >of persons using my program. And you'd never make a dime off of it. What's more, you'd sabotage all of your future efforts. Not a good thing. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 11:45:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D890114F1A for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:45:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06908; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:45:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122124426.0465ab50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:44:55 -0700 To: Mattias Pantzare From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911221427.PAA05626@zed.ludd.luth.se> References: <4.2.0.58.19991121182151.0471cc20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:27 PM 11/22/1999 +0100, Mattias Pantzare wrote: >APS (that is the name of the format, _not_ advantrix) is sold by Fuji to. I >have seen more ads from Fuji than from Kodak. Fuji pays steep royalties to Kodak on every roll. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 11:49:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8885D14F1D; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:49:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02173; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org, jkh@cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Xi Graphics drops all FreeBSD products In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:39:30 MST." <4.2.0.58.19991122113320.04602ec0@localhost> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:49:45 -0800 Message-ID: <2169.943300185@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > According to a message I received from Sales Administrator Cindy > Miley of Xi Graphics this morning, Xi Graphics "no longer support[s] > FreeBSD in our retail products." I'm not as concerned by this as I would once have been since XiG's work is also of increasingly little relevance to the community. The XFree86 project has made great strides in supporting the types of graphics cards which were formerly entirely within XiG's purview and the support of Precision Insight and MetroLink has also given them far more development capacity than they used to have. Frankly, I see Xi Graphics as something of a dinosaur. They used to have a purpose, but their increasingly hostile attitude towards the XFree86 project (with whom they might have actually cooperated instead) is entirely out of character with the open source movement and if you want a commercial X server with (enthusiastic) FreeBSD support, I suggest you check out the MetroLink product. It may not be entirely the equal of the XiG product right now, but they're working hard on that and, unlike XiG, recognise the importance of working with the open source community rather than treating it like a second-class citizen, to be despised and feared (and anyone who doesn't think that's an accurate characterization has never talked to XiG about their views of the XFree86 project). You may choose to continue to support a company which is actively hostile to their open source brethren, but I find it increasingly difficult to do so and have already stopped using their products in favor of XFree86 on both my TNT and Voodoo3 cards (XiG, in fact, doesn't even support the Riva TNT). This is not a set-back, this is a long-overdue adjustment. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 11:53:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB36714F1D; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:53:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02204; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: False Alarm: Xi Graphics representative was mistaken! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:55:01 MST." <4.2.0.58.19991122114841.042cd950@localhost> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:52:52 -0800 Message-ID: <2200.943300372@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Whew. I apologize for the false alarm. It's extremely irresponsible of you to spread this kind of rumor without checking *first* and I'm going to take any future statements from you with a massive dump-truck load of salt as a consequence. I still, nonetheless, stand by my earlier statements. XiG are not being good open source citizens and they do deserve to be spanked for it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 11:54:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52F414F8B for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:54:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991122145303.63255@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:53:03 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: David Schwartz , jack , Chris Piazza Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NT reliability (was: Microsoft service packs... (was many otherthreads...)) Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <002601bf3311$ead8a370$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <002601bf3311$ead8a370$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 08:44:23PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 19 November 1999 at 20:44:23 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: >> Today Chris Piazza wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 01:57:47PM -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> >>>> It doesn't seem to be possible to stop and start interfaces on NT; >>>> instead, you reboot. Not what I would expect of any good OS, let >>> >>> FWIW, Windows 2000 can do this fine. It only took a few years ;-). >> >> Can it add and remove alias IPs on interfaces without the reboot >> that NT needs? > > I don't know if it's a new service pack thing or what, but I've noticed > that more and more of my NT servers _don't_ need reboots for that. They do > drop all current TCP connections, That's broken. TCP has nothing to do with interfaces. > but then they're back up just fine. It's a pain to disconnect > everyone who happened to be doing anything, but it's less painful > than a reboot. So they still haven't got it right. > It scares me though, because I have no idea why sometimes it > works now (like the last 4 times I did it) when it never used to. I would have thought that you were used to it by now. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 12:48:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E5614BE5 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:48:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:46:13 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" , "Mattias Pantzare" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:46:13 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf352a$9d49a0d0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991122124426.0465ab50@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 03:27 PM 11/22/1999 +0100, Mattias Pantzare wrote: > > >APS (that is the name of the format, _not_ advantrix) is sold by > Fuji to. I > >have seen more ads from Fuji than from Kodak. > > Fuji pays steep royalties to Kodak on every roll. > > --Brett Glass How clever of Kodak. They've managed to get Fuji to pay them for something that's no better than something they can have for free. Looks like Bill Gates is not the only practictioner of mind control in Brett's universe. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 12:57:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E8814FB2; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04343; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:24:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:24:15 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: False Alarm: Xi Graphics representative was mistaken! In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991122114841.042cd950@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > All: > > Fortunately, it turns out that the Xi Graphics representative who > told me that they were dropping FreeBSD support was mistaken. Her > original message to me said: Brett, as a member of the press you ought to be a bit more sensitive about your source verification. ;-) FreeBSD's usebase is growing and the maverick 'advocates' can really cause some PR damage, especially when fed incorrent information. I myself was about to draft a 'what the heck' message to XiG, considering that I've got thier X server on back-order. You also should note that XiG sales people really need to be clued in a bit more, the one I talked to said that there was "no way" they'd be supporting FreeBSD 3.x. *sigh* Aparantly they do, they just don't know it. :) -Alfred > > >Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:18:31 -0700 > >From: Cindy Miley > >Reply-To: cindy@xig.com > >Organization: Xi Graphics, Inc. > >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) > >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >To: Brett Glass > >Subject: Re: Appian multi-head cards > >References: <4.2.0.58.19991120173144.046389d0@localhost> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >X-UIDL: aca36a32b5f5c6d96690c6a7d42eaa10 > > > >Brett, > > > >Yes, we support several Appian stock cards. There is a list at > >www.xig.com/Pages/MXCardsAppian.html for single-head support and > >www.xig.com/Pages/MXCardsAppian.html for multi-head support. I am not > >sure what she was referring to as far as a specially modified card. To > >my knowledge, it would actually require custom development to support a > >modified card. However, we no longer support BSD in our retail > >products. We have been in discussions with BSDI about including > >Accelerated-X on their next version, but I do not know if this will > >actually happen. > > > >We do support several versions of Linux. Thank you for your interest in > >Accelerated-X. Please let me know if you have any further questions. > > Since this message came from an official representative of the company, > I took them at their word. But their representative apparently was mistaken: > when I actually called the company to ask WHY they would have done such a > thing, I was told that what was actually dropped was their X server for > BSDI's BSD/OS. > > Whew. I apologize for the false alarm. > > --Brett Glass > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13: 1:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFB014D89 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:01:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04480; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:28:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:28:10 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: False Alarm: Xi Graphics representative was mistaken! In-Reply-To: <2200.943300372@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Whew. I apologize for the false alarm. > > It's extremely irresponsible of you to spread this kind of rumor > without checking *first* and I'm going to take any future statements > from you with a massive dump-truck load of salt as a consequence. I > still, nonetheless, stand by my earlier statements. XiG are not being > good open source citizens and they do deserve to be spanked for it. What about selling metrolink on the FreeBSDMall site? I had the impression they were Linux only, it's great to see Metro on the bandwagon consider Xig's recent antics/cluelessness. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13: 6:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C9414A0E for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:06:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA00035; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:04:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAClaaJ6; Mon Nov 22 14:03:55 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26554; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:04:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911222104.OAA26554@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:04:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <001e01bf31f2$02c70fb0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 18, 99 10:23:28 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Is it possible for company to cause the adoption of lesser > > > technology purely by business/marketing tactics? > > > > Yes. It required the ability to wield what is called "monopolistic > > power" in the marketplace. If you can wield this power, you can > > subvert normal free-market pressures, and by subverting, ignore them. > > Then why is it that not one single clear example of this has ever been > found? This must be some extreme usage of the word "possible". I don't understand what you mean; do you mean "has ever been found by David"? I can cite many examples. I also don't understand whether you are referring to the wielding of monopolistic power, or the adoption of a lesser technology. I can cite many examples of either, if you would clarify what it is you are talking about. Thanks, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13: 9:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB2614CC6 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:09:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02546; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: False Alarm: Xi Graphics representative was mistaken! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:28:10 PST." Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:10:01 -0800 Message-ID: <2543.943305001@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What about selling metrolink on the FreeBSDMall site? I had the > impression they were Linux only, it's great to see Metro on the > bandwagon consider Xig's recent antics/cluelessness. I discussed this very topic with them at COMDEX and hope to be able to do exactly that in the near future. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13:18:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2C414D42 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:18:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:17:45 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:17:45 -0800 Message-ID: <000401bf352f$0504f810$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <199911222104.OAA26554@usr01.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Is it possible for company to cause the adoption of lesser > > > > technology purely by business/marketing tactics? > > > > > > Yes. It required the ability to wield what is called "monopolistic > > > power" in the marketplace. If you can wield this power, you can > > > subvert normal free-market pressures, and by subverting, ignore them. > > > > Then why is it that not one single clear example of this has ever been > > found? This must be some extreme usage of the word "possible". > > I don't understand what you mean; do you mean "has ever been found > by David"? If I meant that, I would have said that. > I can cite many examples. > > I also don't understand whether you are referring to the wielding > of monopolistic power, or the adoption of a lesser technology. No, I'm not referring to the wielding of monopolistic power. That's vague enough that almost anything would count as an example. What I'm talking about is lock in to an inferior technology in the presence of a superior technology (one that's indisputably superior in the range of 20% or more). > I can cite many examples of either, if you would clarify what it is > you are talking about. I'm talking about tipping or network affects locking us into an inferior technology. And the reason I don't think examples will be found is quite simple -- even though discarding compatability is painful, as soon as it's profitable, we find a way to do it. We aren't still stuck using 8 bit computers, are we? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13:25:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C6D14D42 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:25:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08027; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:30:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd007977; Mon Nov 22 14:30:34 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27873; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:24:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911222124.OAA27873@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:24:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, tlambert@primenet.com, crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <000001bf31f5$62ce77b0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 18, 99 10:47:38 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >> > Is it possible for company to cause the adoption of lesser > > >> > technology purely by business/marketing tactics? > > >> > > >> Yes. It required the ability to wield what is called "monopolistic > > >> power" in the marketplace. If you can wield this power, you can > > >> subvert normal free-market pressures, and by subverting, ignore them. > > > > > > Then why is it that not one single clear example of this > > has ever been > > >found? This must be some extreme usage of the word "possible". > > > > Then what would you call M$ requiring all machines sold by OEMs to have > > Windows pre-installed, when OS/2 and DOS were viable alternatives, and > > OS/2 may have been superior? > > It's not an example of the adoption of a lesser technology unless OS/2 > actually _is_ superior. Since it only "may have been", this is not a clear > example. Read over the full thread of what I said (cited above). With this clarification by example, I can cite a number of cases where a clearly superior technology was locked out of the market, since that is what is being asked for: o Thomas Edison, for a long time, locked out Alternating Current, the invention of Nikola Tesla, on the basis of untrue accusations. Edison went so far as to invent the electric chair to "prove" the dangers of AC. o When Honda introduced the CRX/HF, a 72 MPG carbuerated car into the US in the early 90s, US automakers tested one to destruction and then lobbied to change the safety standards to pos-facto render the car "unsafe" (the car I currently drive gets ~64 MPG freeway; no it is not a CRX/HF). o DAT was effectively lobbied out of existance as a music recording standard by the record industry, for fear of perfect digital reproduction of CDs. It was first sentenced into recording at a beat frequency relative to the CD data rate, and then further banished by other ridiculous restrictions having nothing to do with the technology. o DIV/X would have been a superior vehicle for Internet based rental of videos; it was effectively driven out of existance by greedy attempts to apply the technology to the inappropriate target of retail sales-as-rentals. o IBM PCs are Intel based instead of Motorolla based. Enough said, I think (other than "segments are for worms"). o The US television system was well established as being NTSC based, when the superior PAL technology for color representation was released. The US did not adopt it. o The Japanese HDTV market is currently locked into an analog broadcast standard. o Due to the "space race" for the moon, the US scrapped plans for a space station and shuttle-like system, with a ground-to-orbit, orbit-to-moon, moon-to-orbit plan, for the "big-ass-rocket-approach" (Apollo), with the result that it's taken us over 30 years to approach the ability to maintain a permanent manned space presence, and it will be a decade or more before we colonize the moon. I've got thousands of examples of this, since I've made rather a study of human stupidity... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13:31:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CCC71591A for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from localhost.hell.gr (patr364-a126.otenet.gr [195.167.112.222]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27195 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:29:59 +0200 (EET) Received: (qmail 3949 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Nov 1999 02:43:32 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" References: <000001bf3488$4e7573a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 22 Nov 1999 04:43:32 +0200 In-Reply-To: "David Schwartz"'s message of "Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:24:22 -0800" Message-ID: <86iu2v9rfv.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 66 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > > At 12:59 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > Windows 98's disk compression is better than Stac's. > > > > Stac doesn't do disk compression for Windows 98, so the above > > is absurd. > > Err, right. That's why Stac is out of the market. If they provided a > superior product for the operating systems that people wanted to use, > they'd still be here. Remember that 'closed' API thing? Now apply this to memory management software, and it call becomes crystal clear. Of course MS-DOG did not actually have disk compression in the OS, but then again it did not have memory management and you had to roll your own... it was after all only a 'disk operating system' (without disk compression or a descent filesystem, one could note), so why bother about mem-management? > > >Windows 98's memory management is better than Quaterdeck's. > > > > Again, a disingenuous comparison. QEMM did not do the same sort of > > memory management as Windows 98. > > Right. That's exactly my point. I have to agree than apples were never really similar to oranges. > > >IE is a better browser than Netscape's > > > > Not so, especially from a security standpoint. IE is riddled with > > DANGEROUS security problems. > > You are the only one who thinks this. Pretty much everybrowser > shootout since the respective 4.0 products were released has been won > by IE. If you don't like ActiveX (which I personally don't), you can > turn it off (which I don't either, *sigh). You are probably one of the few users unaware of the semi-regular IE-based windows-exploit-of-the-week and that sure is at least interesting. Unless of course, you have some personal reason to re-baptize exploits to 'features'. I hope this has nothing to do with the pretty obvious fact that you are in a way 'employed' in M$. > > > Alas, Netscape was shut down by Microsoft's predatory tactics. The > > shell of the company was bought by AOL, primarily for its portal > > and peripherally so that AOL could avoid total dependence on > > Microsoft's browser by keeping Navigator barely alive. > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. It had > everything to do with IE being a better browser. > And as I explained, using predatory tactics to replace a superior > product with an inferior one gains nothing. With the exception of a few extra bucks and a larger market share (at least for a while). The only thing that remains unresolved is, of course, will that short while be enough for the competitor to get kicked out of the market or not? I know, I know, bussiness is sometimes a very risky thing. -- Giorgos Keramidas, "What we have to learn to do, we learn by doing." [Aristotle] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13:37:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D96E14D42 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:37:48 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:37:48 -0800 Message-ID: <000801bf3531$d1e41a80$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <199911222124.OAA27873@usr01.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I apologize for leaving out one clarification -- the lock in must not be directly attributable to government intervention. Obviously, the government can pass legislation to lock out superior technologies (as it did with halogen headlights, for example). But even the government can't lock us in forever, as political climates will eventually change. >o Thomas Edison, for a long time, locked out Alternating > Current, the invention of Nikola Tesla, on the basis of > untrue accusations. Edison went so far as to invent the > electric chair to "prove" the dangers of AC. I don't know enough about this particular claim to comment. If you'd like, I'd be happy to do some research on it. I think a significant factor here is going to be that, for that time, the advantages of AC were not that particularly great. >o When Honda introduced the CRX/HF, a 72 MPG carbuerated > car into the US in the early 90s, US automakers tested > one to destruction and then lobbied to change the safety > standards to pos-facto render the car "unsafe" (the car > I currently drive gets ~64 MPG freeway; no it is not a > CRX/HF). How did they "lobby"? To the government? If so, it's government lock in. If not, then the problem was simply that people aren't omniscient and didn't realize it was superior. In that case, no lock in is involved. And if this is lock in, it's inexplicable by economic theory, since it's not clear why there are compatability advantages or network effects of any kind. (So this example can't be used to validate the theory of lock in) > o DAT was effectively lobbied out of existance as a music > recording standard by the record industry, for fear of > perfect digital reproduction of CDs. It was first sentenced > into recording at a beat frequency relative to the CD data > rate, and then further banished by other ridiculous > restrictions having nothing to do with the technology. This is government lock in. > o DIV/X would have been a superior vehicle for Internet > based rental of videos; it was effectively driven out > of existance by greedy attempts to apply the technology > to the inappropriate target of retail sales-as-rentals. This is not lock in. Nobody was locked into anything. This was just a case of a company bungling a product. Plenty of possibly superior technologies don't see the light of day at all, that doesn't lock anybody in to anything. > o IBM PCs are Intel based instead of Motorolla based. > Enough said, I think (other than "segments are for worms"). This is a case where the advantages of compatability outweight the costs of lock in. Considering the costs of adopting the new technology, it is no longer superior. Had Intel _not_ been able to come up with more and more powerful x86-based processors, this would be a perfect example. But since Intel has kept their technology competitive, it's not. > o The US television system was well established as being > NTSC based, when the superior PAL technology for color > representation was released. The US did not adopt it. Government lock in. > o The Japanese HDTV market is currently locked into an > analog broadcast standard. Government lock in. > o Due to the "space race" for the moon, the US scrapped > plans for a space station and shuttle-like system, with > a ground-to-orbit, orbit-to-moon, moon-to-orbit plan, > for the "big-ass-rocket-approach" (Apollo), with the > result that it's taken us over 30 years to approach the > ability to maintain a permanent manned space presence, > and it will be a decade or more before we colonize the > moon. This is just an example of people not having clear crystal balls. It's not lock in. > I've got thousands of examples of this, since I've made rather > a study of human stupidity... Which are the ones that are lock in? If the economic theory of lock in is correct, there should be many clear examples. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13:38:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA51A14BC8 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991122163813.39441@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:38:13 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <4.2.0.58.19991120090553.0463a200@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991120090553.0463a200@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 10:34:52AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 20 November 1999 at 10:34:52 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > FreeBSD got a small, but not insignificant, amount of attention. Red Hat > CEO Robert Young even mentioned it in his keynote -- a pleasant surprise. Interesting. I wonder why. What did he say? > Two fellows from the NetBSD project, including Charles Hannum, were at a > booth elsewhere on the floor selling CDs. They didn't seem to be getting as > much interest or recognition as they deserved, alas. The timing of the show > was bad for the OpenBSD project, which is currently struggling like crazy > to close a bunch of open issues so that it can ship Version 2.6. Perhaps > this is why I saw no mention of OpenBSD on the show floor. I'd guess that the cost of the stand might also have deterred them. > I noted that Digi was displaying some new serial hardware in the Red > Hat booth, and asked them about BSD drivers. They said that they > didn't have them, but "why don't you just port them from Linux?" (I > tried to explain to them that the GPL, which is designed to > monkey-wrench exactly such activities, precluded this; alas, they > seemed not to understand the licensing issues. I plan to be in touch > with them about getting "raw" technical specs, as I need a driver > for a Digi 56K modem/channelized T1 board.) You would have been better off telling them that it's non-trivial to port. > The reps from Borland/Inprise -- whose booth was directly across from > Walnut Creek's -- told me that they now had a Linux command-line compiler > for Borland Pascal/Delphi. (This is a fantastic Pascal dialect which I'd > love to use for UNIX projects. The GPLed "Free Pascal" simply can't compete > in terms of code quality.) Unfortunately, despite the fact that recompiling > and relinking a command-line compiler for BSD is nearly trivial, their PR > people claimed that they weren't considering an implementation for FreeBSD. > (This sounds like a company that's ripe for a bit of advocacy; there is NO > reason why there should not be Delphi compilers for ALL of the BSDs.) On the other hand, this should run out of the box. Why ask them to do unnecessary work? > In general, the hardware vendors -- even more than the software vendors -- > seemed to wish that all of this UNIX stuff would just disappear and leave > them happily dependent upon Microsoft in a one-OS world. Sure, they have more to gain from a single market. > Another disturbing trend was that many of the embedded systems > vendors seemed to be going with NT and failing to acknowledge its > continued lack of fitness for mission critical applications. Don't worry about them, they'll go away (broke) or they'll change to something more suitable. > One vendor which had built a PBX around NT admitted, under duress, > that to keep their system even semi-reliable they had to threaten to > void the warranty if ANY other application was installed on the > system. (I asked them whether they were concerned about the system > blue-screening due to network activity, and told them so. The vendor > seemed not to fathom the notion that NT could be crashed via a > network. Duh.) That wasn't the vendor, it was the poor guy who pulled the short straw when they were deciding who to send to the convention. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 13:42:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF2114BC8 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:42:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com ([210.163.200.109]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id GAA22573; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 06:40:12 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3839B749.3ECAB840@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 06:36:09 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -current will enter feature freeze on December 15th! References: <000501bf3530$5c5f6040$021d85d1@youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > To that end, we'll be declaring a feature freeze on the 15th, after > > which time people should just be working on tying off the worst of the > > spurting arteries and spending more time thinking about fixing things > > like gdb than thinking about significant architectural changes. With > > any luck, we'll have 4.0 out in time to catch the last of the new > > millennium celebrations (or riots, depending on who you listen to :). > > The last of the new millennium celebrations are still more than a year > away. Actually, I think the new millennium will have celebrations for... about one thousand years, which puts the last of them at about 1001 years from now. I hope 4.0 gets out sooner, really. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Then again maybe not going to heaven would be a blessing. Relkin liked a certain amount of peace and harmony, since there'd been a pronounced shortage of them in his own life; however, nothing but peace and harmony, forever and forever? He wasn't sure about that. And no beer? Very dubious proposition." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14: 0:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7ECB15031 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:00:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:59:32 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Giorgos Keramidas" , Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:59:31 -0800 Message-ID: <001001bf3534$db023630$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <86iu2v9rfv.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "David Schwartz" writes: > > > > At 12:59 PM 11/21/1999 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > > Windows 98's disk compression is better than Stac's. > > > > > > Stac doesn't do disk compression for Windows 98, so the above > > > is absurd. > > > > Err, right. That's why Stac is out of the market. If they provided a > > superior product for the operating systems that people wanted to use, > > they'd still be here. > > Remember that 'closed' API thing? Now apply this to memory management > software, and it call becomes crystal clear. Of course MS-DOG did not > actually have disk compression in the OS, but then again it did not have > memory management and you had to roll your own... it was after all only > a 'disk operating system' (without disk compression or a descent > filesystem, one could note), so why bother about mem-management? Right, as the operating system matured, its features increased. Clearly, memory management that's integrated into an operating system is superior to memory management that's not. (Especially for Windows, because of its I/O model.) > > > >Windows 98's memory management is better than Quaterdeck's. > > > > > > Again, a disingenuous comparison. QEMM did not do the same sort of > > > memory management as Windows 98. > > > > Right. That's exactly my point. > > I have to agree than apples were never really similar to oranges. The point is, having third-party memory management is not really practical for a modern operating system. Developers have to be intimitely familiar with what their code is making the operating system do. This is particularly the case in WIN32 because of the way the operating system does its I/O. There are cases where you need to know what pool your memory came from or how it's aligned. It would not have been possible for Quarterdeck to maintain a superior product to Microsoft's, and in fact, they did not do so. For as long as their product was superior (relative to its cost), it continued to be used. Even '95 had defects in its memory management, so QEMM remained useful. Microsoft, however, kept improving their memory management to the point that it exceeded what QEMM could do. Note that consumers got all the benefits of QEMM, and still do to this day. > > > >IE is a better browser than Netscape's > > > > > > Not so, especially from a security standpoint. IE is riddled with > > > DANGEROUS security problems. > > > > You are the only one who thinks this. Pretty much everybrowser > > shootout since the respective 4.0 products were released has been won > > by IE. If you don't like ActiveX (which I personally don't), you can > > turn it off (which I don't either, *sigh). > > You are probably one of the few users unaware of the semi-regular > IE-based windows-exploit-of-the-week and that sure is at least > interesting. Unless of course, you have some personal reason to > re-baptize exploits to 'features'. I hope this has nothing to do with > the pretty obvious fact that you are in a way 'employed' in M$. I am completely aware. It's strange, but people don't seem to care. I don't know why, but they don't. IE continues to win browser shootouts over Netscape despite these security problems. I'm sorry that people don't have the preferences that you may think they should have. I know how you feel. I'm very paranoid about security, having grown up in New York. My wife laughs at me for locking the car to run into the house to get something. She'd leave the car running with the keys in it -- that would be unthinkable to me. There's no accounting for taste. Most people care more about how nice the pages look and how fast they seem to load. Microsoft knows this. Yes, I wish they had put some real work into ActiveX. It's a shame they didn't. And, again, I am in no way employed by Microsoft. I own no stock in the company. I have never been paid by them for any reason. I have made a standing offer to sign and notorize a statement to this effect. I'd appreciate if you'd refrain from baseless slander. > > > Alas, Netscape was shut down by Microsoft's predatory tactics. The > > > shell of the company was bought by AOL, primarily for its portal > > > and peripherally so that AOL could avoid total dependence on > > > Microsoft's browser by keeping Navigator barely alive. > > > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. It had > > everything to do with IE being a better browser. > > > And as I explained, using predatory tactics to replace a superior > > product with an inferior one gains nothing. > > With the exception of a few extra bucks and a larger market share (at > least for a while). How do you get extra bucks? Please explain that to me. The additional value that a bundled product adds to the product it's bundled with is equivalent to the value of the product alone, unless the bundling itself adds value. If the bundling itself adds value, it's not predatory (under US law). As for larger market share, while that's true numerically, it's an entirely meaningless number. Consider for example the markets of x86 PC operating systems and browsers designed to run on x86 PC operating systems. If we assume that Microsoft has a monopoly in the first market, and every single potential customer in the second market has already bought a product from the first market, and the ratios are fixed (you don't need more browsers for your OS, and you don't need more OSes from your browser) there is no benefit to the monopolist in cornering the second market. Suppose, for example, that Netscape for Windows was a superior browser. This would make Windows itself more valuable, and Microsoft could extract 100% of this value from the market by increasing the price of Windows. No predation would be necessary. In fact, Windows owes a lot of its value to the existence of third-party software. Microsoft extracts the value from these third-party products precisely by increasing the cost of Windows due to this value. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14: 2:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889E0151F8 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:00:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04904; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:59:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAADga4Bj; Mon Nov 22 14:59:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00163; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:59:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911222159.OAA00163@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:59:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000601bf348f$75b754e0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 21, 99 06:15:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Bull. They were killed by predatory pricing. Technological superiority > > makes little difference when an inferior product is free -- as we've > > seen in the cases of Netscape, Stac, Quarterdeck, and others. > > Price is one of the factors that you have to compare when you > determine if something is superior or not. Pull the other one... we didn't just fall off the turnup truck. Technical superiority is independent of pricing. Pricing is a function of economies of scale and of market forebearance, and has nothing whatsoever to do with technological capability. For example, Microsoft has dropped prices on their software in some markets in order to reinforce mindshare. Clearly, they can't be selling below cost (technical term: "dumping"), since that is an illegal monoply tactic. > If the 'inferior' product is cheaper than the 'superior' product, and this > price difference overwhelms any feature difference, then it's obvious which > product is really superior. The one with the best technology. For example, in the recent bid for the National Aerospace Plane, a brillian SSTO design lost out to a design that will be incapable of landing on the moon or other planets. It will only be good for ground-to-orbit from planets with atmospheres. The SSTO design was much more flexible. One could argue that it had better engine technology, and worse mission profile capability (the winner uses a ceramic linear aerospike engine, which is an engine where the rocket exhaust forms an optimal rocket engine bell out of turbulence for any given atmospheric pressure). With a linear aerospike engine, the SSTO option would have been the best all around option, from a technology standpoint. Technology means that something has utility and application to problems that something without that technology can't match (in the linear aerospike example, the engines don't have to carry a heavy rocket bell, nor cooling equipment for the bell, etc., etc., but that doesn't really help if you wanted to go to the moon). > And it really doesn't matter to the consumer who provides it (at least, > from an antitrust standpoint). So long as the consumer gets the benefit, > then all is well. I guess this explains why the former Soviet Uniion was able to main tain itself in the face of ...oh, _former_; never mind. > My point is that consumers have gained the benefits of > all of these products. When a competitor points out a deficiency > in a Microsoft product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency. > This is one way consumers benefit from 'failed' competition. You are crazy. I _still_ can't install Windows 98/2000 onto removable media because the pager can't correctly do paging on removable media. I reported this bug in 1994, and again in 1996. Where is the fix? > > QEMM was still sold for awhile, but not in sufficient volume to sustain > > the company. Its empty shell was bought by Symantec. Microsoft drove > > Quarterdeck out of business. > > Right, by providing a better combination of costs and features. Consumers > reaped the benefit of this competition, as they are supposed to. Antitrust > law does not protect competitors. Actually by putting up a big nasty warning dialog when Windows started, and later by crashingin the presence QEMM (a fixed fight; the OS took a dive so that the consumer would lose their bet). > > Netscape eventually expected to make a profit from DESQview. Microsoft > > simply wanted to put Netscape out of business. And Microsoft was > > (and is!) a monopoly. Monopoly leverage is illegal. > > Are you saying that Microsoft has no intention of making a profit from IE? > If so, what's their goal? How can they make a profit from something they bundle with the OS? > Please, show me the browser shootouts that conclude, "In our opinion, IE is > inferior to Netscape due to its myriad security problems". Put up or shut > up. Uh, they are called "CERT Advisories", not "shootouts"... 8-). > > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. > > > It had everything to do with IE being a better browser. > > > > Utter nonsense. Again, read the judge's Findings of Fact. > > I have. Remember, that was the starting point. I guess you are implying that you disagree with the findings of fact? You will have a hard time ignoring them; they are almost impossible to overturn, unless you can prove that no "reasonable person" would have arrived at the same conclusions. Microsoft has had their day in court over the facts, and they have lost. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14: 9:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA0814C47 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:09:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA20590; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:07:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAvFaGaO; Mon Nov 22 15:07:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA00846; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:08:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911222208.PAA00846@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:08:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000401bf352f$0504f810$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 01:17:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What I'm talking > about is lock in to an inferior technology in the presence of a superior > technology (one that's indisputably superior in the range of 20% or more). > > > I can cite many examples of either, if you would clarify what it is > > you are talking about. > > I'm talking about tipping or network affects locking us into an inferior > technology. And the reason I don't think examples will be found is quite > simple -- even though discarding compatability is painful, as soon as it's > profitable, we find a way to do it. > > We aren't still stuck using 8 bit computers, are we? No, we are stuck using 8MHz 16 bit I/O busses, incapable of identifying all of the devices you plug into them, and incapable of doing bys mastering into your full memory address space. You might have an argument against inferior technologies after the last ISA card is dead and buried, but don't bet on it: I can't run arbitrary speeds between different PCI slots yet, either. Also, look at PCMCIA: other standards were available, but it is on an ENPIC by ENPIC basis whether or not hot plug is supported, and in most cases where it's not, OS vendors are unwilling to do the necessary work to make it robust in spite of that (c.f. FreeBSD, any Microsoft OS, etc.). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14:19:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7F1214BE7 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:19:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id C92A13413; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:18:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:18:50 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991120090553.0463a200@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The OpenBSD folks were busy up in Seattle, WA at the USENIX LISA '99 conference. They didn't have any CD's for sale as 2.6 is supposed to be out Real Soon Now. Check out http://www.openbsd.org for more details. Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:34:52 -0700 > From: Brett Glass > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: FreeBSD at COMDEX > > Just got back from COMDEX, where the response to FreeBSD was very, very > different compared to previous years. Here are some random observations: > > Two fellows from the NetBSD project, including Charles Hannum, were at a > booth elsewhere on the floor selling CDs. They didn't seem to be getting as > much interest or recognition as they deserved, alas. The timing of the show > was bad for the OpenBSD project, which is currently struggling like crazy > to close a bunch of open issues so that it can ship Version 2.6. Perhaps > this is why I saw no mention of OpenBSD on the show floor. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C1214CF0 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA07905; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:27:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAQbaa_o; Mon Nov 22 15:26:59 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02095; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:27:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911222227.PAA02095@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:27:21 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <000801bf3531$d1e41a80$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 01:37:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >o Thomas Edison, for a long time, locked out Alternating > > Current, the invention of Nikola Tesla, on the basis of > > untrue accusations. Edison went so far as to invent the > > electric chair to "prove" the dangers of AC. > > I don't know enough about this particular claim to comment. If > you'd like, I'd be happy to do some research on it. I think a > significant factor here is going to be that, for that time, > the advantages of AC were not that particularly great. AC has a significant advantage for distance of transmission, since it is not affected by impedance. Losses due to impedance with DC, and the need to be physically proximate to the generating station because of this, are why Edison Electric lost the bid to build the power generating station at Niagara Falls. Tesla is also named on most of the basic patents for AC motors; he invented two and three phse motors, as well as brushless motors. In addition, he was able to successfully prosecute a prior art claim against Marconi for the invention of radio, in that he demonstrated a remotely piloted vehicle (a submarine) before Marconi's claim to have invented radio (Marconi was one of Tesla's assistants). Tesla is one of my heros. 8-). > >o When Honda introduced the CRX/HF, a 72 MPG carbuerated > > car into the US in the early 90s, US automakers tested > > one to destruction and then lobbied to change the safety > > standards to pos-facto render the car "unsafe" (the car > > I currently drive gets ~64 MPG freeway; no it is not a > > CRX/HF). > > How did they "lobby"? To the government? Yes. > If so, it's government lock in. Nothing so blatant. > If not, then the problem was simply that people aren't omniscient > and didn't realize it was superior. In that case, no lock in is > involved. And if this is lock in, it's inexplicable by economic > theory, since it's not clear why there are compatability > advantages or network effects of any kind. (So this example can't > be used to validate the theory of lock in) I wasn't attempting to validate the theory of lock in, I was attempting to show where superior technologies fell by the wayside because of anticompetitve practices by companies with inferior technology. > > o DAT was effectively lobbied out of existance as a music > > recording standard by the record industry, for fear of > > perfect digital reproduction of CDs. It was first sentenced > > into recording at a beat frequency relative to the CD data > > rate, and then further banished by other ridiculous > > restrictions having nothing to do with the technology. > > This is government lock in. This is actually a recordig industry lock in, since the government was not involved; the specifics I am referring to is the format standardization based on recording industry pressure on the DAT manufacturers. A governmetn lock in, the so-called "DAT tax", was also present, but relatively insignificant, according to earlier pricing arguments. > > o DIV/X would have been a superior vehicle for Internet > > based rental of videos; it was effectively driven out > > of existance by greedy attempts to apply the technology > > to the inappropriate target of retail sales-as-rentals. > > This is not lock in. Nobody was locked into anything. I'm locked into paying return postage on Internet based rentals of videos. > This was just a case of a company bungling a product. Plenty > of possibly superior technologies don't see the light of day > at all, that doesn't lock anybody in to anything. Except the status quo? > > o IBM PCs are Intel based instead of Motorolla based. > > Enough said, I think (other than "segments are for worms"). > > This is a case where the advantages of compatability outweight > the costs of lock in. So you admit that it's a "lock in", by your definition? Compatability is only an issue when software vendors don't port, BTW. > Considering the costs of adopting the new technology, it is no > longer superior. Cost and technological superiority are orthogonal. We do not consider cost when we discuss technical superiority. > Had Intel _not_ been able to come up with more and more > powerful x86-based processors, this would be a perfect example. > But since Intel has kept their technology competitive, it's not. Says you, as a consumer instead of an engineer. If we are going to make a cost argument, let's add up all the engineering hours spent trying to overcome the segmented address space to make the Intel architecture into a virtually flat address space machine. Even then it's imperfect: I can only fault on page boundaries, so I have to double-map the boundary page between text and data in order to keep the text from getting modified. The compiler writer hours spent on producing PIC compiler output alone would justify the move... all of these extra engineering costs get passed onto consumers. > > o The US television system was well established as being > > NTSC based, when the superior PAL technology for color > > representation was released. The US did not adopt it. > > Government lock in. Actually, not. The FCC standardized the format post-facto. > > o The Japanese HDTV market is currently locked into an > > analog broadcast standard. > > Government lock in. Actually, it was done by manufacturers rushing anolog equipment to market. This is another post-facto standard. > > o Due to the "space race" for the moon, the US scrapped > > plans for a space station and shuttle-like system, with > > a ground-to-orbit, orbit-to-moon, moon-to-orbit plan, > > for the "big-ass-rocket-approach" (Apollo), with the > > result that it's taken us over 30 years to approach the > > ability to maintain a permanent manned space presence, > > and it will be a decade or more before we colonize the > > moon. > > This is just an example of people not having clear crystal balls. > It's not lock in. Having clear crystal balls is what we pay these people to do. > > I've got thousands of examples of this, since I've made rather > > a study of human stupidity... > > Which are the ones that are lock in? If the economic theory of lock > in is correct, there should be many clear examples. I don't understand your affinity to this one, single, aspect of illegal use of monopoly power as it applies to Microsoft. Is this the one, single, illegal use to which Microsoft did _not_ put their monopoly power? PS: If you want another example of non-government lock in, you have only to look at Standard Oils practices of price fixing and of preventing non-company owned stations from being able to obtain gasoline for sale. This was the original reason for the initial Antitrust Legislation. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14:52:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CCF1506C for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:52:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:52:32 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:52:32 -0800 Message-ID: <000501bf353c$42b15110$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <199911222208.PAA00846@usr01.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What I'm talking > > about is lock in to an inferior technology in the presence of a superior > > technology (one that's indisputably superior in the range of > 20% or more). > > > > > I can cite many examples of either, if you would clarify what it is > > > you are talking about. > > > > I'm talking about tipping or network affects locking us into an inferior > > technology. And the reason I don't think examples will be found is quite > > simple -- even though discarding compatability is painful, as > soon as it's > > profitable, we find a way to do it. > > > > We aren't still stuck using 8 bit computers, are we? > > No, we are stuck using 8MHz 16 bit I/O busses, incapable of > identifying all of the devices you plug into them, and incapable > of doing bys mastering into your full memory address space. We aren't stuck with them. We still have them, but we don't use them. This is a 'best of both worlds' situation. We still have compatability, but we don't have to suffer all the disadvantages. This is one way that lock in can be broken -- by maintaining compatability. > You might have an argument against inferior technologies after > the last ISA card is dead and buried, but don't bet on it: I > can't run arbitrary speeds between different PCI slots yet, > either. What's your point here? We have the options of both superior and inferior technologies. No one is locked into anything. This is a case of engineering ingenuity and market forces breaking lock in. > Also, look at PCMCIA: other standards were available, but it is on > an ENPIC by ENPIC basis whether or not hot plug is supported, and > in most cases where it's not, OS vendors are unwilling to do the > necessary work to make it robust in spite of that (c.f. FreeBSD, > any Microsoft OS, etc.). Right. I never said that the very best possible technology would always be brought to market. I simply said that market lock in wouldn't be able to hold us into significantly inferior technologies. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14:52:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4FB1507D for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:52:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:52:31 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:52:30 -0800 Message-ID: <000401bf353c$41eb6900$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <199911222159.OAA00163@usr01.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Bull. They were killed by predatory pricing. Technological superiority > > > makes little difference when an inferior product is free -- as we've > > > seen in the cases of Netscape, Stac, Quarterdeck, and others. > > > > Price is one of the factors that you have to compare when you > > determine if something is superior or not. > > > Pull the other one... we didn't just fall off the turnup truck. > > Technical superiority is independent of pricing. Pricing is a > function of economies of scale and of market forebearance, and > has nothing whatsoever to do with technological capability. What the hell are you talking about? Are you next going to allege that the reason we don't all have Cray T90's is due to Microsoft lock in? After all, they are superior to our desktops, right? > For example, Microsoft has dropped prices on their software in > some markets in order to reinforce mindshare. Clearly, they > can't be selling below cost (technical term: "dumping"), since > that is an illegal monoply tactic. And yet it's dumping that can save us from lock in! If lock in is a problem, then companies should be allowed to dump to break the lock in. You can't have it both ways. > > If the 'inferior' product is cheaper than the 'superior' > product, and this > > price difference overwhelms any feature difference, then it's > obvious which > > product is really superior. > > The one with the best technology. This is an Alice-in-Wonderland view. Better technology in isolation doesn't even make a better product. > For example, in the recent bid for the National Aerospace Plane, > a brillian SSTO design lost out to a design that will be incapable > of landing on the moon or other planets. It will only be good for > ground-to-orbit from planets with atmospheres. > > The SSTO design was much more flexible. One could argue that it > had better engine technology, and worse mission profile capability > (the winner uses a ceramic linear aerospike engine, which is an > engine where the rocket exhaust forms an optimal rocket engine bell > out of turbulence for any given atmospheric pressure). With a > linear aerospike engine, the SSTO option would have been the best > all around option, from a technology standpoint. > > Technology means that something has utility and application to > problems that something without that technology can't match (in > the linear aerospike example, the engines don't have to carry > a heavy rocket bell, nor cooling equipment for the bell, etc., > etc., but that doesn't really help if you wanted to go to the > moon). You have an engineer's view of economics. ;) The 'best technology' does not make the best product. Technology is useful only as a means to an end. > > My point is that consumers have gained the benefits of > > all of these products. When a competitor points out a deficiency > > in a Microsoft product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency. > > This is one way consumers benefit from 'failed' competition. > > You are crazy. I _still_ can't install Windows 98/2000 onto > removable media because the pager can't correctly do paging on > removable media. > > I reported this bug in 1994, and again in 1996. > > Where is the fix? If you don't like Windows 98/2000, don't use them. Don't bang your head up against a wall and complain to me about it. > > > Netscape eventually expected to make a profit from DESQview. Microsoft > > > simply wanted to put Netscape out of business. And Microsoft was > > > (and is!) a monopoly. Monopoly leverage is illegal. > > > > Are you saying that Microsoft has no intention of making a > profit from IE? > > If so, what's their goal? > > How can they make a profit from something they bundle with the OS? Umm, duh, it increases the value of the OS and thus allows them to charge more for it. Did you fail Economics 101? > > Please, show me the browser shootouts that conclude, "In our > opinion, IE is > > inferior to Netscape due to its myriad security problems". Put > up or shut > > up. > > Uh, they are called "CERT Advisories", not "shootouts"... 8-). Well, unfortunately, consumers don't always have the same priorities that you and I do. Yes, it's frustrating for a lot of people. But when what you want is not what everyone else seems to want, then that's what happens. > > > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. > > > > It had everything to do with IE being a better browser. > > > > > > Utter nonsense. Again, read the judge's Findings of Fact. > > > > I have. Remember, that was the starting point. > > I guess you are implying that you disagree with the findings of > fact? You will have a hard time ignoring them; they are almost > impossible to overturn, unless you can prove that no "reasonable > person" would have arrived at the same conclusions. Microsoft > has had their day in court over the facts, and they have lost. Well, given Judge Jackson's previous history in this case, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 14:57:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CED7B14F2C for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:57:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:56:42 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:56:42 -0800 Message-ID: <000601bf353c$d804b400$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <199911222227.PAA02095@usr01.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > o IBM PCs are Intel based instead of Motorolla based. > > > Enough said, I think (other than "segments are for worms"). > > > > This is a case where the advantages of compatability outweight > > the costs of lock in. > > So you admit that it's a "lock in", by your definition? Compatability > is only an issue when software vendors don't port, BTW. No, nobody is locked into anything. We choose the 'inferior' technology because of the advantage of compatability. Hence the allegedly 'superior' technology isn't really superior once the costs of adopting are taken into account. (This is the same reason the US has not adopted the metric standard generally.) Eventually, technologies that don't have the costs of compatability will become so far superior that nothing will stop us from switching standards. At this point, either Intel will succeed with Merc^H^H^H^HItanium or we will change platforms entirely. The former solution is less expensive and painful (better for everyone except Intel's competitors), so it'll probably be what will happen. Had Intel not been able to maintain the costs of compatability so low, we would already have dumped the x86 architecture. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 16: 8:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7889714C3B for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA20030; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:06:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAz3a44M; Mon Nov 22 17:05:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01158; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:06:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911230006.RAA01158@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:06:08 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000401bf353c$41eb6900$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 02:52:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Pull the other one... we didn't just fall off the turnup truck. > > > > Technical superiority is independent of pricing. Pricing is a > > function of economies of scale and of market forebearance, and > > has nothing whatsoever to do with technological capability. > > What the hell are you talking about? Are you next going to allege > that the reason we don't all have Cray T90's is due to Microsoft > lock in? After all, they are superior to our desktops, right? Of course not; if I said that, I'd be arguing from the specific to the general, and we all know that that's false logic. What I'll say is that cost has no bearing on superiority, or vice versa, unless we are talking about a technologically superior manufacturing process that enables one to drop prices. > > For example, Microsoft has dropped prices on their software in > > some markets in order to reinforce mindshare. Clearly, they > > can't be selling below cost (technical term: "dumping"), since > > that is an illegal monoply tactic. > > And yet it's dumping that can save us from lock in! Tell that to IBM and CDC, or Sony and Emerson. > If lock in is a problem, then companies should be allowed to > dump to break the lock in. You can't have it both ways. I don't want it both way. Companies should not be allowed to dump for any reason, including breaking so-called "lock in", and the government should be permitted to kick butt and twist nipples in order to break so-called "lock in". I see no inconsistancy with prohibiting monopoly tactics from use by all players in any market. > > > If the 'inferior' product is cheaper than the 'superior' > > > product, and this price difference overwhelms any feature > > > difference, then it's obvious which product is really superior. > > > > The one with the best technology. > > This is an Alice-in-Wonderland view. Better technology in isolation > doesn't even make a better product. 1) I did not state "in isolation". 2) I merely disagree with you that cost is a factor in determining superiority of one product over another. Let me put it this way: humans effectively give away feces for free; does this make it a better food than wheat, merely because when I divide the cost of an equivalent amount of wheat by the cost of the feces, the price difference overwhelms and feature difference, and thus it's obbious which product is really the superior food? > You have an engineer's view of economics. ;) No, I have a reasonable view of economics, but that is not the question before the board; the question before the board is gauging technical superiority between a set of products, seperate from their ability to compete in the market, and in specific regard to the ability to "lock in" inferior technology through reasons other than free market forces (theorem: free market forces are not operational in the presence of monopolies). > The 'best technology' does not make the best product. Technology > is useful only as a means to an end. I'm reminded of the "Star Terk: The Next Generation" episode, where a revived cryonic suspendee who was a wealthy man in his time, is being berated by Captain Picard about how that type of power is illusory, and isn't really real. His retort to Picard? "Really? I'm _here_, aren't I?" While I agree that degree of technical superiority is not the sole measure of the value of a product, there is no way to make a good product with bad technology. I am reminded of another statement: "How can my people make bricks without straw?" In other words, good technology is necessary, but not sufficient, for creating a good product. Turning this around, if you have all of the other factors present, _except_ good technology, then you will have a mediocre product, and it doesn't matter if you win the market or not using illegal tactics, your product is still mediocre (e.g. if it crashes every 46 days because the nanosecond counter overflows, etc., then it's mediocre, and no amount of angels on the heads of no amount of pins will make it any less mediocre). > > > My point is that consumers have gained the benefits of > > > all of these products. When a competitor points out a deficiency > > > in a Microsoft product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency. > > > This is one way consumers benefit from 'failed' competition. > > > > You are crazy. I _still_ can't install Windows 98/2000 onto > > removable media because the pager can't correctly do paging on > > removable media. > > > > I reported this bug in 1994, and again in 1996. > > > > Where is the fix? > > If you don't like Windows 98/2000, don't use them. Don't bang your head up > against a wall and complain to me about it. Are you retracting your statement? You stated: "When a competitor points out a deficiency in a Microsoft product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency." I worked for a competitor of Microsoft both times. I pointed out the deficiency. Microsoft _did not_ act to correct the deficiency. Your statement is therefore false. Turning this into whether or not I "like" the products with this deficiency is irrelevant to determining the veracity of your statement. > > > > Netscape eventually expected to make a profit from DESQview. Microsoft > > > > simply wanted to put Netscape out of business. And Microsoft was > > > > (and is!) a monopoly. Monopoly leverage is illegal. > > > > > > Are you saying that Microsoft has no intention of making a > > > profit from IE? > > > If so, what's their goal? > > > > How can they make a profit from something they bundle with the OS? > > Umm, duh, it increases the value of the OS and thus allows them to charge > more for it. Did you fail Economics 101? Wait. Are they giving IE away for free, or are they bundling it with the OS, thus "locking out" Netscape? Either they are "locking out" Netscape, or they are not adding value by bundling; make up your mind. > > > Please, show me the browser shootouts that conclude, "In our > > > opinion, IE is inferior to Netscape due to its myriad security > > > problems". Put up or shut up. > > > > Uh, they are called "CERT Advisories", not "shootouts"... 8-). > > Well, unfortunately, consumers don't always have the same priorities that > you and I do. Yes, it's frustrating for a lot of people. But when what you > want is not what everyone else seems to want, then that's what happens. So your tack has changed from: "there are no public comparisons contradicting the point" to "the public comparisons contradicting the point are irrelevant" Nice to clear that up. > > > > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. > > > > > It had everything to do with IE being a better browser. > > > > > > > > Utter nonsense. Again, read the judge's Findings of Fact. > > > > > > I have. Remember, that was the starting point. > > > > I guess you are implying that you disagree with the findings of > > fact? You will have a hard time ignoring them; they are almost > > impossible to overturn, unless you can prove that no "reasonable > > person" would have arrived at the same conclusions. Microsoft > > has had their day in court over the facts, and they have lost. > > Well, given Judge Jackson's previous history in this case, I > wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Feel free to try to overturn it. As good scientists, it is beholden on the rest of us to apply Occam's Razor, and state that, in the absence of contradictory facts, the simplest explanation is the correct one. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 16:20:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB08414FB6 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:20:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16705; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:19:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAHAaGFG; Mon Nov 22 17:19:31 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01731; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:19:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911230019.RAA01731@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:19:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000501bf353c$42b15110$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 02:52:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > We aren't still stuck using 8 bit computers, are we? > > > > No, we are stuck using 8MHz 16 bit I/O busses, incapable of > > identifying all of the devices you plug into them, and incapable > > of doing bys mastering into your full memory address space. > > We aren't stuck with them. We still have them, but we don't use > them. This is a 'best of both worlds' situation. We still have > compatability, but we don't have to suffer all the disadvantages. > This is one way that lock in can be broken -- by maintaining > compatability. I don't understand how I am no longer locked into supporting ISA device probes, so long as there is an ISA bus in the machines on which my OS runs. I either support the hardware (all of it), or I don't support the hardware. How do I avoid suffering the disadvantages of carrying around this legacy code and paying the penalty at boot time? The answer is that, so long as there is an ISA bus in my machine, I will be paying for it. > > You might have an argument against inferior technologies after > > the last ISA card is dead and buried, but don't bet on it: I > > can't run arbitrary speeds between different PCI slots yet, > > either. > > What's your point here? We have the options of both superior and > inferior technologies. No one is locked into anything. This is a > case of engineering ingenuity and market forces breaking lock in. No. It is a case of being locked into supplying ISA slots. [ ... PCMCIA ... ] > Right. I never said that the very best possible technology would always be > brought to market. I simply said that market lock in wouldn't be able to > hold us into significantly inferior technologies. PCMCIA is significantly inferior to PCCard, but we are locked into supporting it, just as with ISA. As a matter of fact, one thing that Microsoft could do with its monopoly that would be a real benefit is to stop supporting ISA in its OS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 16:25: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790CF1595E for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:24:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:24:52 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:24:52 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf3549$28ca1400$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199911230006.RAA01158@usr02.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Pull the other one... we didn't just fall off the turnup truck. > > > > > > Technical superiority is independent of pricing. Pricing is a > > > function of economies of scale and of market forebearance, and > > > has nothing whatsoever to do with technological capability. > > > > What the hell are you talking about? Are you next going to allege > > that the reason we don't all have Cray T90's is due to Microsoft > > lock in? After all, they are superior to our desktops, right? > > Of course not; if I said that, I'd be arguing from the specific > to the general, and we all know that that's false logic. > > What I'll say is that cost has no bearing on superiority, or vice > versa, unless we are talking about a technologically superior > manufacturing process that enables one to drop prices. This is a truly Alice-in-Wonderland view. > > If lock in is a problem, then companies should be allowed to > > dump to break the lock in. You can't have it both ways. > > I don't want it both way. Companies should not be allowed to dump > for any reason, including breaking so-called "lock in", and the > government should be permitted to kick butt and twist nipples > in order to break so-called "lock in". I see no inconsistancy > with prohibiting monopoly tactics from use by all players in any > market. Yes, this is classic. Use the government to create a problem and then demand that the government fix it. Wonderful. > > > > If the 'inferior' product is cheaper than the 'superior' > > > > product, and this price difference overwhelms any feature > > > > difference, then it's obvious which product is really superior. > > > > > > The one with the best technology. > > > > This is an Alice-in-Wonderland view. Better technology in isolation > > doesn't even make a better product. > > 1) I did not state "in isolation". > > 2) I merely disagree with you that cost is a factor in > determining superiority of one product over another. > > Let me put it this way: humans effectively give away feces for > free; does this make it a better food than wheat, merely because > when I divide the cost of an equivalent amount of wheat by the > cost of the feces, the price difference overwhelms and feature > difference, and thus it's obbious which product is really the > superior food? So why do people eat wheat instead of feces? I would say it's kind of a price/performance thing, though not a purely price/performance thing. A straight price/performance division tends to give too much weight to price. I would certainly say that cost is a factor. If wheat for free, things that substitute for wheat would have a much harder time in the market. > > You have an engineer's view of economics. ;) > > No, I have a reasonable view of economics, but that is not the > question before the board; the question before the board is > gauging technical superiority between a set of products, seperate > from their ability to compete in the market, and in specific > regard to the ability to "lock in" inferior technology through > reasons other than free market forces (theorem: free market > forces are not operational in the presence of monopolies). You have changed the question to one that has no correlation whatsoever with reality. Technical superiority has no particular market value at all, unless it meets some sort of need or drops prices or something. What makes a product competitive is not necessarily just technology. > > The 'best technology' does not make the best product. Technology > > is useful only as a means to an end. > > I'm reminded of the "Star Terk: The Next Generation" episode, > where a revived cryonic suspendee who was a wealthy man in his > time, is being berated by Captain Picard about how that type > of power is illusory, and isn't really real. His retort to Picard? > > "Really? I'm _here_, aren't I?" > > While I agree that degree of technical superiority is not the > sole measure of the value of a product, there is no way to make > a good product with bad technology. I am reminded of another > statement: > > "How can my people make bricks without straw?" > > In other words, good technology is necessary, but not sufficient, > for creating a good product. Absolutely. > Turning this around, if you have all of the other factors > present, _except_ good technology, then you will have a > mediocre product, and it doesn't matter if you win the market > or not using illegal tactics, your product is still mediocre > (e.g. if it crashes every 46 days because the nanosecond counter > overflows, etc., then it's mediocre, and no amount of angels on > the heads of no amount of pins will make it any less mediocre). The assumption unstated in this is that it's 'bad technology' that's responsible for the crashes. When it may really be things like complexity inherent in the feature set, or immaturity, or any number of other factors. In any event, this all irrelevant. Nobody particularly cares about technology (or should), they should just care about how well the particular product meets their present and future needs relative to its cost. > > > > My point is that consumers have gained the benefits of > > > > all of these products. When a competitor points out a deficiency > > > > in a Microsoft product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency. > > > > This is one way consumers benefit from 'failed' competition. > > > > > > You are crazy. I _still_ can't install Windows 98/2000 onto > > > removable media because the pager can't correctly do paging on > > > removable media. > > > > > > I reported this bug in 1994, and again in 1996. > > > > > > Where is the fix? > > > > If you don't like Windows 98/2000, don't use them. Don't bang > your head up > > against a wall and complain to me about it. > > Are you retracting your statement? > > You stated: > > "When a competitor points out a deficiency in a Microsoft > product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency." > > I worked for a competitor of Microsoft both times. > > I pointed out the deficiency. > > Microsoft _did not_ act to correct the deficiency. > > Your statement is therefore false. I didn't say, "Any time someone who just happens to be a competitor of Microsoft points out what they consider a deficiency in the product, Microsoft always acts to change the product to be precisely what the competitor wishes it to be." You do understand the difference, don't you? > Turning this into whether or not I "like" the products with this > deficiency is irrelevant to determining the veracity of your > statement. No, but it would help if you understood the statement. > > > > > Netscape eventually expected to make a profit from > DESQview. Microsoft > > > > > simply wanted to put Netscape out of business. And Microsoft was > > > > > (and is!) a monopoly. Monopoly leverage is illegal. > > > > > > > > Are you saying that Microsoft has no intention of making a > > > > profit from IE? > > > > If so, what's their goal? > > > > > > How can they make a profit from something they bundle with the OS? > > > > Umm, duh, it increases the value of the OS and thus allows them > to charge > > more for it. Did you fail Economics 101? > > Wait. Are they giving IE away for free, or are they bundling it > with the OS, thus "locking out" Netscape? They are bundling it with Windows. How this locks out Netscape remains to be explained. > Either they are "locking out" Netscape, or they are not adding > value by bundling; make up your mind. Please explain how these are inconsistent. > > > > Please, show me the browser shootouts that conclude, "In our > > > > opinion, IE is inferior to Netscape due to its myriad security > > > > problems". Put up or shut up. > > > > > > Uh, they are called "CERT Advisories", not "shootouts"... 8-). > > > > Well, unfortunately, consumers don't always have the same > priorities that > > you and I do. Yes, it's frustrating for a lot of people. But > when what you > > want is not what everyone else seems to want, then that's what happens. > > So your tack has changed from: > > "there are no public comparisons contradicting the point" > > to > > "the public comparisons contradicting the point are > irrelevant" > > Nice to clear that up. Umm, what public comparisons contradicting the point are you talking about? Show me the browser shootouts that conclude that IE is inferior due to its security problems. CERT advisories do not constitute product comparisons. > > > > > > Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. > > > > > > It had everything to do with IE being a better browser. > > > > > > > > > > Utter nonsense. Again, read the judge's Findings of Fact. > > > > > > > > I have. Remember, that was the starting point. > > > > > > I guess you are implying that you disagree with the findings of > > > fact? You will have a hard time ignoring them; they are almost > > > impossible to overturn, unless you can prove that no "reasonable > > > person" would have arrived at the same conclusions. Microsoft > > > has had their day in court over the facts, and they have lost. > > > > Well, given Judge Jackson's previous history in this case, I > > wouldn't jump to that conclusion. > > Feel free to try to overturn it. > > As good scientists, it is beholden on the rest of us to apply > Occam's Razor, and state that, in the absence of contradictory > facts, the simplest explanation is the correct one. What's your explanation for Judge Jackson issuing an injunction against Microsoft, when one wasn't even sought, that was later overturned due to the entire rationale behind it being incorrect. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 16:33:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480AA14C12 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:30:59 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:30:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf354a$038b0e00$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199911230019.RAA01731@usr02.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > We aren't still stuck using 8 bit computers, are we? > > > > > > No, we are stuck using 8MHz 16 bit I/O busses, incapable of > > > identifying all of the devices you plug into them, and incapable > > > of doing bys mastering into your full memory address space. > > > > We aren't stuck with them. We still have them, but we don't use > > them. This is a 'best of both worlds' situation. We still have > > compatability, but we don't have to suffer all the disadvantages. > > This is one way that lock in can be broken -- by maintaining > > compatability. > > I don't understand how I am no longer locked into supporting ISA > device probes, so long as there is an ISA bus in the machines on > which my OS runs. I either support the hardware (all of it), or > I don't support the hardware. Huh? If you don't think the ISA bus gives you advantages that outweight the costs of supporting it, don't. You aren't locked in! > How do I avoid suffering the disadvantages of carrying around this > legacy code and paying the penalty at boot time? You don't do it. > The answer is that, so long as there is an ISA bus in my machine, > I will be paying for it. Bullshit. This is a clear case of why we don't get locked in. Eventually, we migrate to the superior technologies, first trying to get all the benefits of the new, and later shedding all the disadvantages of the old. It may not be done as quickly or as perfectly as you might like, but that's unavoidable. The only way to avoid that would be to not have promoted ISA in the first place. > > > You might have an argument against inferior technologies after > > > the last ISA card is dead and buried, but don't bet on it: I > > > can't run arbitrary speeds between different PCI slots yet, > > > either. > > > > What's your point here? We have the options of both superior and > > inferior technologies. No one is locked into anything. This is a > > case of engineering ingenuity and market forces breaking lock in. > > No. It is a case of being locked into supplying ISA slots. Huh? Who is locked in? Motherboard manufacturers? No, they aren't locked in, the choose to add these slots because they believe the value of the compatability outweighs the cost of compatability. As soon as those balances change, they'll drop ISA slots. > As a matter of fact, one thing that Microsoft could do with > its monopoly that would be a real benefit is to stop supporting > ISA in its OS. I still use ISA. Though mostly on my UNIX boxes. I still keep a lot of 'obsolete' hardware useful that way. Many of my Linux servers still have ISA video cards. One of my machines has a motherboard with serial ports that don't work -- it has an ISA serial port card in it. One of my FreeBSD servers doesn't even have any PCI slots. Of course, I may wind up suffering for trying to stay in the trailing edge. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 16:59:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EE814CA5 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:59:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA07637; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:59:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAMcaq1o; Mon Nov 22 17:58:52 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03552; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:59:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911230059.RAA03552@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:59:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000001bf3549$28ca1400$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 04:24:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What I'll say is that cost has no bearing on superiority, or vice > > versa, unless we are talking about a technologically superior > > manufacturing process that enables one to drop prices. > > This is a truly Alice-in-Wonderland view. I don't understand why you don't understand the concept of "independant variables". > > > If lock in is a problem, then companies should be allowed to > > > dump to break the lock in. You can't have it both ways. > > > > I don't want it both way. Companies should not be allowed to dump > > for any reason, including breaking so-called "lock in", and the > > government should be permitted to kick butt and twist nipples > > in order to break so-called "lock in". I see no inconsistancy > > with prohibiting monopoly tactics from use by all players in any > > market. > > Yes, this is classic. Use the government to create a problem and then > demand that the government fix it. Wonderful. Anything that damages the ability of the free market to operate as designed in order to give the consumer the most leverage of all the participants in any transaction should be prohibited. Government does not create the problem; companies illegally using anticompetitive practices, and being successful at doing so, due to their monopolistic power, creates the problem. What can solve this problem? Herny Reardon will not solve the problem for us; he does not see it to be a problem, because he does not believe that the market exists to server consumers, but instead exists to serve him. Can a meaner mob boss come along and knock off the current mob boss? Maybe; there's always the possiblity of someone meaner coming along. But do we really want the market controlled by mean mob bosses, instead of the consumer? > > > > The one with the best technology. > > > > > > This is an Alice-in-Wonderland view. Better technology in isolation > > > doesn't even make a better product. [ ... ] > > Let me put it this way: humans effectively give away feces for > > free; does this make it a better food than wheat, merely because > > when I divide the cost of an equivalent amount of wheat by the > > cost of the feces, the price difference overwhelms and feature > > difference, and thus it's obbious which product is really the > > superior food? > > So why do people eat wheat instead of feces? I would say it's > kind of a price/performance thing, though not a purely > price/performance thing. A straight price/performance division > tends to give too much weight to price. I would certainly say > that cost is a factor. If wheat for free, things that substitute > for wheat would have a much harder time in the market. The simple answer is that not all products are equal, even when people cleam they are equal, and price ratio is not an issue in the "buy decision". It doesn't matter what price ratio you set between wheat and feces, people are going to buy feces in place of wheat. The _only_ way to get people to buy feces instead of wheat is to make wheat unavailable, at the same time making feces ubiquitous. > > > You have an engineer's view of economics. ;) > > > > No, I have a reasonable view of economics, but that is not the > > question before the board; the question before the board is > > gauging technical superiority between a set of products, seperate > > from their ability to compete in the market, and in specific > > regard to the ability to "lock in" inferior technology through > > reasons other than free market forces (theorem: free market > > forces are not operational in the presence of monopolies). > > You have changed the question to one that has no correlation > whatsoever with reality. Technical superiority has no particular > market value at all, You have obviously never been in the market for a replacement heart valve or a veinous shunt. > unless it meets some sort of need or drops prices or something. > What makes a product competitive is not necessarily just technology. Exactly my point at the start of this discussion, where you were claiming that Microsofts market share derived from technical superiority of its products... > > In other words, good technology is necessary, but not sufficient, > > for creating a good product. > > Absolutely. > > > Turning this around, if you have all of the other factors > > present, _except_ good technology, then you will have a > > mediocre product, and it doesn't matter if you win the market > > or not using illegal tactics, your product is still mediocre > > (e.g. if it crashes every 46 days because the nanosecond counter > > overflows, etc., then it's mediocre, and no amount of angels on > > the heads of no amount of pins will make it any less mediocre). > > The assumption unstated in this is that it's 'bad technology' > that's responsible for the crashes. Absolutely. > When it may really be things like complexity inherent in the > feature set, Complexity does not result in fragility, unless it is incompetantly implemented. > or immaturity, An immature technology is, by definition, bad to deploy. > or any number of other factors. I'd like to see that laundry list... ;-). > In any event, this all irrelevant. Nobody particularly cares > about technology (or should), Medical technology? Air traffic control systems? Baggage handling systems in the Denver airport? Control systems on naval vessels? ATMs? Religious broadcasts at 6AM on Sunday? Where do you draw the line at where people "should" and "should not" care about the technology on which they depend? > they should just care about how well the particular product > meets their present and future needs relative to its cost. If we were to seperate "cost" and "price", as strict terms, then what you have people caring about is the underlying technology... > > Are you retracting your statement? > > > > You stated: > > > > "When a competitor points out a deficiency in a Microsoft > > product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency." > > > > I worked for a competitor of Microsoft both times. > > > > I pointed out the deficiency. > > > > Microsoft _did not_ act to correct the deficiency. > > > > Your statement is therefore false. > > I didn't say, "Any time someone who just happens to be a competitor of > Microsoft points out what they consider a deficiency in the product, > Microsoft always acts to change the product to be precisely what the > competitor wishes it to be." > > You do understand the difference, don't you? Yes. Your second definition doesn't let me sell machines with the OS installed on removable media. > > > > > Are you saying that Microsoft has no intention of making a > > > > > profit from IE? > > > > > If so, what's their goal? > > > > > > > > How can they make a profit from something they bundle with the OS? > > > > > > Umm, duh, it increases the value of the OS and thus allows them > > to charge > > > more for it. Did you fail Economics 101? > > > > Wait. Are they giving IE away for free, or are they bundling it > > with the OS, thus "locking out" Netscape? > > They are bundling it with Windows. How this locks out Netscape > remains to be explained. Microsoft contractually prevented PC vendors from installing Netscape on PCs they sold, on behalf of consumers. What is the download time on 20M over a 56k modem? Answer: over 51 minutes, assuming the modem connects at 53k, the current FCC limit. What is an hour of your time worth? What about the fact that you are now familiar enough with IE, after using it in order to obtain Netscape, that you are unlikely to want to switch? > > Either they are "locking out" Netscape, or they are not adding > > value by bundling; make up your mind. > > Please explain how these are inconsistent. See above. If they aren't "locking out" Netscape, you are saying that IE adds no value, since you want us to treat the machine as a clean slate, where the cost of obtaining the browser of ones choice is a zero (or negative) sum proposition. > > So your tack has changed from: > > > > "there are no public comparisons contradicting the point" > > > > to > > > > "the public comparisons contradicting the point are > > irrelevant" > > > > Nice to clear that up. > > Umm, what public comparisons contradicting the point are you talking about? > Show me the browser shootouts that conclude that IE is inferior due to its > security problems. > > CERT advisories do not constitute product comparisons. I can probably get you a job at Mindcraft, if you like... feel free to continue to redefine "shootout" until it only encompases "those surveys which support my point, and which I therefore consider authoritative". 8-). > > > > I guess you are implying that you disagree with the findings of > > > > fact? You will have a hard time ignoring them; they are almost > > > > impossible to overturn, unless you can prove that no "reasonable > > > > person" would have arrived at the same conclusions. Microsoft > > > > has had their day in court over the facts, and they have lost. > > > > > > Well, given Judge Jackson's previous history in this case, I > > > wouldn't jump to that conclusion. > > > > Feel free to try to overturn it. > > > > As good scientists, it is beholden on the rest of us to apply > > Occam's Razor, and state that, in the absence of contradictory > > facts, the simplest explanation is the correct one. > > What's your explanation for Judge Jackson issuing an injunction > against Microsoft, when one wasn't even sought, that was later > overturned due to the entire rationale behind it being incorrect. He's human, and the other party should have sought injunctive relief, since the overturning judge stated that as the reason for the overturn, not the facts Jackson cited in granting the injunction? Or maybe it was the obstructive behaviour of Microsoft, and the flat-out perjury of Steve Ballmer just really pissed him off? Just a guess... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 17: 5:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D787814CA5 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:05:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25609; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:11:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd025588; Mon Nov 22 18:11:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA03973; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:05:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911230105.SAA03973@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:05:04 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000101bf354a$038b0e00$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 04:30:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I don't understand how I am no longer locked into supporting ISA > > device probes, so long as there is an ISA bus in the machines on > > which my OS runs. I either support the hardware (all of it), or > > I don't support the hardware. > > Huh? If you don't think the ISA bus gives you advantages that > outweight the costs of supporting it, don't. You aren't locked in! The only advantage it gives is a marketing checkbox relative to Microsoft OSs. One that would not need to be there, if Microsoft didn't support it. > > How do I avoid suffering the disadvantages of carrying around this > > legacy code and paying the penalty at boot time? > > You don't do it. I can't do that, so long as Microsoft support it. > > The answer is that, so long as there is an ISA bus in my machine, > > I will be paying for it. > > Bullshit. This is a clear case of why we don't get locked in. I don't understand this statement; when I buy a PC, do I not pay for the ISA card edge connectors and copper cladding on the PC board, as well as the resin that makes up the board? If you can tell me how I can aboid that (point me to a vendor of competitively priced machines which omit the bus, please!), then let me know. > The only way to avoid that would be to not have promoted ISA in > the first place. So, promoting ISA is what locked us in? > > No. It is a case of being locked into supplying ISA slots. > > Huh? Who is locked in? Motherboard manufacturers? No, they aren't > locked in, the choose to add these slots because they believe the > value of the compatability outweighs the cost of compatability. > As soon as those balances change, they'll drop ISA slots. I don't believe this, but even if I did, how does that save me, as an OS vendor, from having to support ISA? > > As a matter of fact, one thing that Microsoft could do with > > its monopoly that would be a real benefit is to stop supporting > > ISA in its OS. > > I still use ISA. Though mostly on my UNIX boxes. I still keep a > lot of 'obsolete' hardware useful that way. > > Many of my Linux servers still have ISA video cards. One of my > machines has a motherboard with serial ports that don't work -- > it has an ISA serial port card in it. One of my FreeBSD servers > doesn't even have any PCI slots. > > Of course, I may wind up suffering for trying to stay in the > trailing edge. Or dragging the rest of us down with you... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 17:12: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7818314CE4; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10921; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:11:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122181026.046b5310@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:11:38 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: False Alarm: Xi Graphics representative was mistaken! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@cdrom.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <2200.943300372@localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:52 AM 11/22/1999 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Whew. I apologize for the false alarm. > >It's extremely irresponsible of you to spread this kind of rumor >without checking *first* The statement I received came directly from a company representative and was very clear and unambiguous. It turns out that she made a mistake, and I apologize for propagating that mistake. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 17:16:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98121501C; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10973; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:16:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122181212.046b6640@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:15:59 -0700 To: Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: False Alarm: Xi Graphics representative was mistaken! Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991122114841.042cd950@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:24 PM 11/22/1999 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >Brett, as a member of the press you ought to be a bit more sensitive >about your source verification. ;-) Well, I received the word directly from a bona fide representative of the company. That's normally a pretty reliable source! I did not know that this person was mistaken, and posted a correction as soon as I *did* know. What else could I do? I was shocked, because I was about to order a few copies of their X server for some machines here. >You also should note that XiG sales people really need to be >clued in a bit more, the one I talked to said that there was >"no way" they'd be supporting FreeBSD 3.x. I will now know better. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 17:20: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE20014E99 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:20:00 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:20:00 -0800 Message-ID: <000101bf3550$dcc5a760$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <199911230105.SAA03973@usr02.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The answer is that, so long as there is an ISA bus in my machine, > > > I will be paying for it. > > > > Bullshit. This is a clear case of why we don't get locked in. > > I don't understand this statement; when I buy a PC, do I not pay > for the ISA card edge connectors and copper cladding on the PC > board, as well as the resin that makes up the board? > > If you can tell me how I can aboid that (point me to a vendor of > competitively priced machines which omit the bus, please!), then > let me know. You just keep getting more and more ridiculous. Look, suppose your motherboard manufacturer made a motherboard with no ISA slots. This would cut the base cost by some small amount, but it would also reduce the volume because the potential market would be smaller. So because those ISA slots are on your motherboard, the volume of the sales of that motherboard goes up. This reduces the cost of the motherboard, which you benefit from in the form of lowered prices. Imagine if this was not so. If the benefits of doing this (lower cost) outweighed the costs (lower volume) some manufacturer would make a motherboard with no ISA slots. Its lower base cost would allow it to corner the majority of the market. (Unless you want to attribute this too to Bill Gates' mind control.) Now, over time, the cost of the ISA slots has been dropping because there tend to be fewer and fewer of them, but this cannot keep up forever, you cannot have less than one slot. The advantages of them are dropping too, since fewer and fewer people want them or need them. As a result, they 'harm' they can do keeps dropping and dropping, and eventually they will be overthrown. This is an example of the free market triumphing over what could have been lock in. All the 'lock in' does is increase the amount of time that compatability is maintained. And in any event, this is _beneficial_ lock in. Would you prefer being forced to throw out all your old cards everytime a better slot standard comes out? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 17:30:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5304C14FFB for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:30:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11103; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:29:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122181712.04729990@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:26:58 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX In-Reply-To: <19991122163813.39441@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19991120090553.0463a200@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991120090553.0463a200@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:38 PM 11/22/1999 -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Saturday, 20 November 1999 at 10:34:52 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > FreeBSD got a small, but not insignificant, amount of attention. Red Hat > > CEO Robert Young even mentioned it in his keynote -- a pleasant surprise. > >Interesting. I wonder why. What did he say? He mentioned it in passing, early in the speech. See http://play.rbn.com/?url=zd/pcweek/g2demand/webcast/comdexfall99/key_111599b.rm&proto=rtsp > > The reps from Borland/Inprise -- whose booth was directly across from > > Walnut Creek's -- told me that they now had a Linux command-line compiler > > for Borland Pascal/Delphi. (This is a fantastic Pascal dialect which I'd > > love to use for UNIX projects. The GPLed "Free Pascal" simply can't compete > > in terms of code quality.) Unfortunately, despite the fact that recompiling > > and relinking a command-line compiler for BSD is nearly trivial, their PR > > people claimed that they weren't considering an implementation for FreeBSD. > > (This sounds like a company that's ripe for a bit of advocacy; there is NO > > reason why there should not be Delphi compilers for ALL of the BSDs.) > >On the other hand, this should run out of the box. Why ask them to do >unnecessary work? Because it will produce non-native binaries that are dependent upon Linux libraries and emulation. If a user does not have these installed, the code generated by the compiler will not run. Also, APIs that access unique features of the FreeBSD architecture -- e.g. CAM -- won't be there. One of the reasons I use FreeBSD is that I do not wish any of my work to be dependent upon GPLed code. I certainly don't want to use a compiler that forces me into such a dependency! --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 18:22:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id E0F7014ED0; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27B01CD748; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:22:33 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991122181712.04729990@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:38 PM 11/22/1999 -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >On Saturday, 20 November 1999 at 10:34:52 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > > FreeBSD got a small, but not insignificant, amount of attention. Red Hat > > > CEO Robert Young even mentioned it in his keynote -- a pleasant surprise. > > > >Interesting. I wonder why. What did he say? > > He mentioned it in passing, early in the speech. See > > http://play.rbn.com/?url=zd/pcweek/g2demand/webcast/comdexfall99/key_111599b.rm&proto=rtsp About 20 minutes in he mentions that gcc is used to compile FreeBSD and sendmail as an example of what a compiler does..is that what you were referring to? Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 18:35: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D12114EF2; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:34:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11781; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:32:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122193200.00b03e10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:32:49 -0700 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991122181712.04729990@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:22 PM 11/22/1999 -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: >About 20 minutes in he mentions that gcc is used to compile FreeBSD and >sendmail as an example of what a compiler does..is that what you were >referring to? Actually, he mentioned it more prominently than that in the press Q&A. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 18:48:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 4D2FE14E09; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D661CD40A; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:48:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:48:33 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991122193200.00b03e10@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:22 PM 11/22/1999 -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > >About 20 minutes in he mentions that gcc is used to compile FreeBSD and > >sendmail as an example of what a compiler does..is that what you were > >referring to? > > Actually, he mentioned it more prominently than that in the press Q&A. I guess you meant he mentions it at the end, not early on..I didn't listen that far :-) Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 18:56:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE800159A1; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:56:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12051; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:56:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122195113.040cc710@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:52:27 -0700 To: Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991122193200.00b03e10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:48 PM 11/22/1999 -0800, Kris Kennaway wrote: >I guess you meant he mentions it at the end, not early on..I didn't listen >that far :-) There were two mentions: one at the beginning, one at the end. I don't know if they kept running the tape all the way through to the second one. Both were favorable, though. I'm sort of surprised that he mentioned any of the BSDs at all, but certainly pleased about it. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 20:28:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861B0151EB for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-122.ocis.net [209.52.175.94]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10452; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:27:54 -0800 Message-Id: <199911230427.UAA10452@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: tlambert@primenet.com Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:29:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org, davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) In-reply-to: <199911230105.SAA03973@usr02.primenet.com> References: <000101bf354a$038b0e00$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 04:30:59 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [snip] > > > The answer is that, so long as there is an ISA bus in my machine, > > > I will be paying for it. > > Bullshit. This is a clear case of why we don't get locked in. > I don't understand this statement; when I buy a PC, do I not pay > for the ISA card edge connectors and copper cladding on the PC > board, as well as the resin that makes up the board? > If you can tell me how I can aboid that (point me to a vendor of > competitively priced machines which omit the bus, please!), then > let me know. I'm not sure what you call "competitively priced" but in the November 1999 issue of Maximum PC Magazine, there are reviews of two machince without ISA slots. However, it still has PS/2, serial, and parallel ports, so the ISA *bus* is still there. The machines are: Micron Millenia 600 133: 6 PCI/0 ISA $2360 $2990 w/monitor Dell Dimension XPS B600: 5PCI/1 AGP/ 0 ISA $2745 (prices in US$) [snip] > > Huh? Who is locked in? Motherboard manufacturers? No, they aren't > > locked in, the choose to add these slots because they believe the > > value of the compatability outweighs the cost of compatability. > > As soon as those balances change, they'll drop ISA slots. > I don't believe this, but even if I did, how does that save > me, as an OS vendor, from having to support ISA? This is a chicken-egg circle. The OS will stop supporting it when manufacturers stop building it. Manufacturers will stop building it when the OS no longer supports it. Fortunately, finally, some manufacturers are taking the *first* steps to removing ISA from our machines. Still a *long* way to go though. Freddie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 20:28:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C45159A0 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:28:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from phoenix (dial-122.ocis.net [209.52.175.94]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10458; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:27:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199911230427.UAA10458@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:29:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com Cc: "David Schwartz" , "Terry Lambert" In-reply-to: <000101bf354a$038b0e00$021d85d1@youwant.to> References: <199911230019.RAA01731@usr02.primenet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pardon me for butting in, > > > > > We aren't still stuck using 8 bit computers, are we? > > > > No, we are stuck using 8MHz 16 bit I/O busses, incapable of > > > > identifying all of the devices you plug into them, and incapable > > > > of doing bys mastering into your full memory address space. [snip] > > I don't understand how I am no longer locked into supporting ISA > > device probes, so long as there is an ISA bus in the machines on > > which my OS runs. I either support the hardware (all of it), or > > I don't support the hardware. > Huh? If you don't think the ISA bus gives you advantages that > outweight the > costs of supporting it, don't. You aren't locked in! Just out curiosity, how does one avoid the entire ISA bus? Aren't the keyboard, PS/2, serial and parallel ports on the ISA bus? Even if one doesn't use the ISA slots on the mobo, doesn't the PC/OS still probe the bus now and then? It's only been in the last month or two that mobos without ISA *slots* have become available, but the ISA *bus* is still present, is it not? > > How do I avoid suffering the disadvantages of carrying around this > > legacy code and paying the penalty at boot time? > > You don't do it. > > > The answer is that, so long as there is an ISA bus in my machine, I > > will be paying for it. > > Bullshit. This is a clear case of why we don't get locked in. > Eventually, > we migrate to the superior technologies, first trying to get all the > benefits of the new, and later shedding all the disadvantages of the > old. Eventually. But how long has it been now since the newer technology was first introduced? Why has it taken so long if the new technology is so much better? With all the advantages of PCI/AGP/USB/FireWire why is it that Intel compatible machines are still forced to use the original (slightly modified) ISA bus? Just curious, because there has to be more to this than just time. [snip] > > No. It is a case of being locked into supplying ISA slots. > Huh? Who is locked in? Motherboard manufacturers? No, they aren't > locked in, the choose to add these slots because they believe the > value of the compatability outweighs the cost of compatability. As > soon as those balances change, they'll drop ISA slots. Actually, some mobo manufacturers have dropped the ISA *slot* but the ISA *bus* is still there. Freddie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 20:47:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC84115054 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:47:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-55.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.55]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA08596; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:46:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06706; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:45:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199911230445.WAA06706@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: "David Schwartz" Cc: "Terry Lambert" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-reply-to: Message from "David Schwartz" of "Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:37:48 PST." <000801bf3531$d1e41a80$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:45:40 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "David Schwartz" writes: > > I apologize for leaving out one clarification -- the lock in must not be > directly attributable to government intervention. Obviously, the government > can pass legislation to lock out superior technologies (as it did with > halogen headlights, for example). [...] > This is government lock in. [...] > Government lock in. [...] > Government lock in. [...] > > I've got thousands of examples of this, since I've made rather > > a study of human stupidity... > > Which are the ones that are lock in? If the economic theory of lock in is > correct, there should be many clear examples. Let me add a candidate for "government lock in": Microsoft Windows/Office. Just try to deliver an electronic document to a US Government customer in any other format. Typically these days its written into the bidding rules Thou Shalt Submit Your Proposal In Microsoft Word '97 PC Format. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 20:47:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E166151E9 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:47:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-55.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.55]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA05597; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:46:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06609; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:31:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199911230431.WAA06609@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:43:36 MST." <4.2.0.58.19991122123435.042bf850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:31:17 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > The GPL does not meet the criteria for an open source license. First, > it discriminates against a field of endeavor: the creation of > commercial software. Second, it requires a "fee" before you can > distribute works based upon the software: namely, the forfeiture of > the value of your own code. For both of these reasons, the GPL > is not a legitimate open source license. Brett, you've fallen into the trap layed by the left-wingers of equating "Open Source" with "Freely Redistributable". Any vendor who includes source code with the product is "Open Source" (or should be able to wear such a label). The original Apple ][ PROM monitor was open source as Apple published the listing in the manuals. It was not freely redistributable, and they fought Franklin in the courts for years before winning. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 20:55: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C0214BF6 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:55:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13333; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:54:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122215243.043d9ef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:54:34 -0700 To: David Kelly From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Cc: greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911230431.WAA06609@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19991122123435.042bf850@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:31 PM 11/22/1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >Brett, you've fallen into the trap layed by the left-wingers of equating >"Open Source" with "Freely Redistributable". Any vendor who includes >source code with the product is "Open Source" (or should be able to >wear such a label). While including the source code to ROMs is a good thing, IMHO, it is not what is commonly called "open source" nowadays. Another term is probably needed to describe this practice. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 21: 7:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1FF614BE2 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-55.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.55]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA22614; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:06:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06976; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:06:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199911230506.XAA06976@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:54:34 MST." <4.2.0.58.19991122215243.043d9ef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:06:39 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 10:31 PM 11/22/1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: > > >Brett, you've fallen into the trap layed by the left-wingers of equating > >"Open Source" with "Freely Redistributable". Any vendor who includes > >source code with the product is "Open Source" (or should be able to > >wear such a label). > > While including the source code to ROMs is a good thing, IMHO, it is not > what is commonly called "open source" nowadays. Another term is probably > needed to describe this practice. Right, these days "Open Source" has been twisted into a different political agenda. The word "free" or any form of "redistribute" is lacking from "Open Source". And I admit the term, "Freely Redistributable" doesn't imply source. So maybe its time to coin a term which excludes GPL: Freely Redistributable Open Source. FROS for short. Linux and GPL would only qualify as ROS. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 21:15:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D82B14D57 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:15:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmp@aracnet.com) Received: from aracnet.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23875; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:11:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <383A22E5.DF5C6114@aracnet.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:15:17 -0800 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: David Kelly , greyheart@fnmail.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL References: <4.2.0.58.19991122123435.042bf850@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991122215243.043d9ef0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 10:31 PM 11/22/1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: > > >Brett, you've fallen into the trap layed by the left-wingers of equating > >"Open Source" with "Freely Redistributable". Any vendor who includes > >source code with the product is "Open Source" (or should be able to > >wear such a label). > > While including the source code to ROMs is a good thing, IMHO, it is not > what is commonly called "open source" nowadays. Another term is probably > needed to describe this practice. Published source. -- [dmp@aracnet.com] Matthew 7:7-8 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 22: 7:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB67314A04 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:07:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA27481; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:06:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:06:08 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: David Schwartz , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: -current will enter feature freeze on December 15th! In-Reply-To: <3839B749.3ECAB840@newsguy.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > David Schwartz wrote: > > The last of the new millennium celebrations are still more than a year > > away. > > Actually, I think the new millennium will have celebrations for... > about one thousand years, which puts the last of them at about 1001 > years from now. I hope 4.0 gets out sooner, really. Sheesh, by that point I was hoping FreeBSD 5.0 would be shipping. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 22:19:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBA214A16 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14151; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:18:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122231524.0442bdd0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:18:41 -0700 To: David Kelly From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911230506.XAA06976@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19991122215243.043d9ef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 PM 11/22/1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >Right, these days "Open Source" has been twisted into a different >political agenda. The word "free" or any form of "redistribute" is >lacking from "Open Source". Yep. They intentionally confuse the issue by invoking multiple meanings of the word "free." This is part of Stallman's rhetoric. "Free beer?" "Free (in the anthropomorphic sense) code?" (As if it were possible for code to exercise fee will -- but, yes, Stallman employs this meaning to confuse the issue.) "Free speech?" (Another unrelated meaning, since the term actually refers to a constraint on the powers of government.) Politics and labels do cause things to get pretty strange very quickly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 22:26: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6641514A16 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:26:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA14201; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:25:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991122231957.0436acf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:25:37 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: -current will enter feature freeze on December 15th! Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3839B749.3ECAB840@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:06 AM 11/23/1999 -0600, David Scheidt wrote: >Sheesh, by that point I was hoping FreeBSD 5.0 would be shipping. Actually, what we are more interested in is 3.4. Zero point releases are an important step, of course, but since we cannot use anything less than X.2 on a production system, and 3.3 has a few problems, we are eagerly anticipating the next release along the 3.3-STABLE line. In general, X.Y-RELEASE versions, where Y>=2, are the most important to us -- with Y>=5 being the best of all. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 22 23:23:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 4AC3014C14; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402441CD778; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:23:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:23:33 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org, "David E. O'Brien" Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports/mail/mutt/pkg DESCR In-Reply-To: <383A32E9.FFE1872C@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > Modified files: > > mail/mutt/pkg DESCR > > Log: > > Remove the "warning this is beta software and using it could email the > > lauch codes to the nukes and start WW3" message. > > They don't work that way anyhow. Trust me on this. I'm not a rocket > scientist, but I used to be one. Didn't you see _War games_? Surely they would have updated it with an email and web interface by now.. :-) Kris ---- Cthulhu for President! For when you're tired of choosing the _lesser_ of two evils.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 1:25: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trltech.demon.co.uk (trltech.demon.co.uk [194.222.7.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B80014F8C for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:24:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from ns.sw.wan (ns.sw.wan [192.9.200.19]) by trltech.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA50131; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:23:14 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost.sw.wan [127.0.0.1]) by ns.sw.wan (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26005; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:23:32 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <383A5D14.572D31E3@trltech.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:23:32 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL References: <4.2.0.58.19991122123435.042bf850@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > The GPL does not meet the criteria for an open source license. First, > it discriminates against a field of endeavor: the creation of > commercial software. Second, it requires a "fee" before you can > distribute works based upon the software: namely, the forfeiture of > the value of your own code. For both of these reasons, the GPL > is not a legitimate open source license. Surely this second point is _your_ misconception (and a common misconception) about the GPL, namely, confusing owned code and derived works. I could release my new megasuite under either BSD or GPL and will forfeit monetary gain through either route. Richard, who _has_ read the GPL and _is_ a BSD enthusiast. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 3:14:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id ADEA714BEC; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 03:14:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: brett@lariat.org Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.19991122231524.0442bdd0@localhost> (message from Brett Glass on Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:18:41 -0700) Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Message-Id: <19991123111417.ADEA714BEC@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 03:14:17 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org as a swag (silly wild as guess) one might say: free speech refers to a constraint on the powers of government. free code refers to a constraint on the powers of companies. jmb > > Yep. They intentionally confuse the issue by invoking multiple > meanings of the word "free." This is part of Stallman's rhetoric. > "Free beer?" "Free (in the anthropomorphic sense) code?" (As if > it were possible for code to exercise fee will -- but, yes, > Stallman employs this meaning to confuse the issue.) "Free speech?" > (Another unrelated meaning, since the term actually refers to a > constraint on the powers of government.) > > Politics and labels do cause things to get pretty strange very > quickly. > > --Brett > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 5: 1:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C8881504A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 5BB137555; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 591AB1D86; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:00:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 05:00:40 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" In-Reply-To: <199911230059.RAA03552@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: :I don't understand why you don't understand the concept of :"independant variables". Terry, I like reading your posts, but even Brett has stopped feeding this troll. He's obviously either a total 'any govt. is bad govt.' wacko, or am M$ dupe of the highest order, either way, you will not change his mind. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 6:47:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD5A14E93 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 06:46:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991122215146.54985@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:51:46 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: David Schwartz , Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <199911222159.OAA00163@usr01.primenet.com> <000401bf353c$41eb6900$021d85d1@youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <000401bf353c$41eb6900$021d85d1@youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 02:52:30PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Monday, 22 November 1999 at 14:52:30 -0800, David Schwartz wrote: >>>> Bull. They were killed by predatory pricing. Technological superiority >>>> makes little difference when an inferior product is free -- as we've >>>> seen in the cases of Netscape, Stac, Quarterdeck, and others. >>> >>> Price is one of the factors that you have to compare when you >>> determine if something is superior or not. >> >> Pull the other one... we didn't just fall off the turnup truck. >> >> Technical superiority is independent of pricing. Pricing is a >> function of economies of scale and of market forebearance, and >> has nothing whatsoever to do with technological capability. > > What the hell are you talking about? Are you next going to allege > that the reason we don't all have Cray T90's is due to Microsoft > lock in? After all, they are superior to our desktops, right? What does this have to do with Terry's statement? >> For example, Microsoft has dropped prices on their software in >> some markets in order to reinforce mindshare. Clearly, they >> can't be selling below cost (technical term: "dumping"), since >> that is an illegal monoply tactic. > > And yet it's dumping that can save us from lock in! If lock in is a > problem, then companies should be allowed to dump to break the lock > in. You can't have it both ways. You certainly can't have it that way. >>> My point is that consumers have gained the benefits of >>> all of these products. When a competitor points out a deficiency >>> in a Microsoft product, Microsoft acts to correct the deficiency. >>> This is one way consumers benefit from 'failed' competition. >> >> You are crazy. I _still_ can't install Windows 98/2000 onto >> removable media because the pager can't correctly do paging on >> removable media. >> >> I reported this bug in 1994, and again in 1996. >> >> Where is the fix? > > If you don't like Windows 98/2000, don't use them. Don't bang your > head up against a wall and complain to me about it. What does this have to do with your point? It doesn't help to change the subject when your point is shown to be invalid. In case you haven't noticed, most people on this forum *don't* use Microsoft, for these very reasons. >>> Please, show me the browser shootouts that conclude, "In our >>> opinion, IE is inferior to Netscape due to its myriad security >>> problems". Put up or shut up. >> >> Uh, they are called "CERT Advisories", not "shootouts"... 8-). > > Well, unfortunately, consumers don't always have the same priorities > that you and I do. Yes, it's frustrating for a lot of people. But > when what you want is not what everyone else seems to want, then > that's what happens. It's certainly frustrating when you change the subject when you see you have lost. It would be nicer if you would just shut up. >>>>> Umm, it had nothing to do with any predatory tactics. >>>>> It had everything to do with IE being a better browser. >>>> >>>> Utter nonsense. Again, read the judge's Findings of Fact. >>> >>> I have. Remember, that was the starting point. I think Terry meant "read them and understand them". Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 6:51:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C7E14BF4 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 06:51:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qHH2-0007aq-00; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:50:28 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA55150; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:50:27 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:50:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL In-Reply-To: <383A5D14.572D31E3@trltech.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Richard Smith wrote: >I could release my new megasuite under either BSD or GPL and will >forfeit monetary gain through either route. Why is that? You are still allowed to charge for commercial products, correct? >Richard, who _has_ read the GPL and _is_ a BSD enthusiast. Sorry, i don't get thus.. i must have missed something... Could you explain what you mean here? -jm ** Please cc any replies since i am not on the questions mailing list. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 7:37: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trltech.demon.co.uk (trltech.demon.co.uk [194.222.7.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69EAC15083 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from ns.sw.wan (ns.sw.wan [192.9.200.19]) by trltech.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA51030; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:36:48 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost.sw.wan [127.0.0.1]) by ns.sw.wan (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26435; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:37:08 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <383AB4A4.9B471944@trltech.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:37:08 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Richard Smith wrote: > > >I could release my new megasuite under either BSD or GPL and will > >forfeit monetary gain through either route. > > Why is that? You are still allowed to charge for commercial products, > correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can choose to release _my_ product under both the GPL and my commercial licence, charging for the latter. What the GPL prevents is people taking my GPLed product and charging for a derived work. It doesn't restrict me in any way as the original copyright holder. That was the point I was trying to make. I agree that the GPL is insidious, but you only really notice this when you look at the community as a whole, with each individual copyright holder mutually locking each other into the GPL. Richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 8:23:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD84314A1A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qIiR-0006fr-00; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:22:51 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA56449; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:22:51 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:22:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My misconceptions about the GPL In-Reply-To: <383AB4A4.9B471944@trltech.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Richard Smith wrote: >> >I could release my new megasuite under either BSD or GPL and will >> >forfeit monetary gain through either route. I just don't understand whether you are saying you will forfeit gain because you *choose* not to charge, or you forfeit gain because you *cannot* charge. I thought you could charge for either, but the BSD license would protect your intellectual property if it were a derivative work? >What the GPL prevents is people taking my GPLed product and charging for >a derived work. It doesn't restrict me in any way as the original >copyright holder. So, if i understand correctly, if you write an *original* work, and then GPL it, you may charge for it and prevent anyone else from creating/selling derivative works without revealing their changes. So basically, for an *original* work, the two licenses are very similar, but *derivative* works under GPL require that the changes (intellectual property) be made known, while the BSD license does not. So BSD encourages modification for profit, while GPL does not? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 9:56:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C0E150E0 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:56:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17605; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:02:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017584; Tue Nov 23 11:02:53 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00319; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:55:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911231755.KAA00319@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Judge: "Gates Was Main Culprit" To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:55:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000101bf3550$dcc5a760$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Nov 22, 99 05:20:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You just keep getting more and more ridiculous. Pot, Kettle, Black. > Look, suppose your motherboard manufacturer made a motherboard > with no ISA slots. This would cut the base cost by some small > amount, Which we would have to multiply by two, since that will be the ultimate cost differential to the consumer, since that is how hardware works (my company produces hardware devices, among other things). > but it would also reduce the volume because the potential > market would be smaller. You're absolutely right. Look how poorly the iMac has done, all because it lacks ISA slots. > Imagine if this was not so. If the benefits of doing this (lower cost) > outweighed the costs (lower volume) some manufacturer would make a > motherboard with no ISA slots. Dell already does. But they only sell it in their systems. > Its lower base cost would allow it to corner the majority of the > market. (Unless you want to attribute this too to Bill Gates' > mind control.) I'll attribute it to his market control instead, thanks. > Now, over time, the cost of the ISA slots has been dropping because there > tend to be fewer and fewer of them, but this cannot keep up forever, you > cannot have less than one slot. 0 < 1. > The advantages of them are dropping too, since fewer and fewer > people want them or need them. As a result, they 'harm' they can > do keeps dropping and dropping, and eventually they will be > overthrown. The harm they do is to the OS software. It is very binary: either the OS contains ISA support code, and all that entails, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then the OS ends up not being able to crash devices via invasive probes, since it can non-invasively probe for all the hardware installed in the machine. Note that this means you must remove the ISA bride in its entirety, and place the onboard IDE and other devices that are usually in the ISA bridge (to make them slow?) into another ASIC. > This is an example of the free market triumphing over what could > have been lock in. Uh, because we have ISA, we are triumphantly not locked into having ISA? > All the 'lock in' does is increase the amount of time that > compatability is maintained. Oh, we _are_ locked into ISA. > And in any event, this is _beneficial_ lock in. And we should be grateful for it... My ass. Why do you think a Windows install states "if this step takes too long, reset (do _not_ reboot!) your computer, and the process will continue from where it left off" for the hardware probe phase? It's because it has a probe intention log, and can only detect ill effects from a destructive probe (required by many ISA devices) by examining the previous incomplete action in the intention log, and avoiding it. Anything that requires my computer to reboot more than once (for the newly installed OS to come up) is broken. > Would you prefer being forced to throw out all your old cards > everytime a better slot standard comes out? What old cards? The last ones onto the PCI bandwagon were sound and multiport serial adapters (understandable, because they need less bandwidth, and don't demand PCI, like video, disk, ethernet). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 10:40: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198FC1542D for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:39:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA02290; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:45:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd002259; Tue Nov 23 11:45:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01689; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:38:21 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911231838.LAA01689@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:38:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911230506.XAA06976@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "David Kelly" at Nov 22, 99 11:06:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >Brett, you've fallen into the trap layed by the left-wingers of equating > > >"Open Source" with "Freely Redistributable". Any vendor who includes > > >source code with the product is "Open Source" (or should be able to > > >wear such a label). > > > > While including the source code to ROMs is a good thing, IMHO, it is not > > what is commonly called "open source" nowadays. Another term is probably > > needed to describe this practice. > > Right, these days "Open Source" has been twisted into a different > political agenda. The word "free" or any form of "redistribute" is > lacking from "Open Source". > > And I admit the term, "Freely Redistributable" doesn't imply source. So > maybe its time to coin a term which excludes GPL: Freely Redistributable > Open Source. FROS for short. Linux and GPL would only qualify as ROS. With respect... "Open Source" is a common law trademark of the Open Source Initiative. They also have a registration for a service mark, "OSI Certified" and another "OSI Certified Open Source". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 11: 0:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A59B1528D; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA17432; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:59:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAA2_a4UH; Tue Nov 23 11:59:28 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02592; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:59:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911231859.LAA02592@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL To: jmb@hub.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:59:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991123111417.ADEA714BEC@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Nov 23, 99 03:14:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > as a swag (silly wild as guess) one might say: > > free speech refers to a constraint on the powers of > government. > > free code refers to a constraint on the powers of companies. It's a definitional thing. What RMS is really talking about is not freedom, but liberty. The reason he has to abuse the word "free" is the negative connotations associated with "liberated", as in "The corporal liberated these supplies from the enemy" or "the government liberated the FICA from your paycheck", or "the angry mob liberated the murderers as well as the political prisoners from the bastille". These connotations actually derive from the writs of mandamus issued to captains of what were, essentially, pirate ships (but because of the writs, "they're _our_ pirates"). This practice began in 1861, if memory serves me correctly. Similarly, a libertine is "a person who is unrestrained by convention or morality" or "a freethinker, especially in religious matters". There are addition connotations, which are really the result of media fabrications regarding public protests during the women's liberation movement (this is well documented; most protests were nowhere near as belligerent as they were portrayed in the media, for example, the original "bra burning" incident was really a "throw the bras in a 50 gallon trash can, but don't set them on fire" incident). Finally, there is the association with the libertarian party; a similar association is why its citizens tend to call the U.S. a democracy, when in fact it is a republic (the establishing documents specifically guarantee a "republican form of government"). Whether these connotation is deserved or not is irrelevant: they exist. People wouldn't really rally behind "liberated software", but, in the U.S. especially, "free" has no such negative connotations. It's unfortunate that he is damaging the word "free" through his misuse of it. Maybe he's telling us that the wind is more than six points off dead ahead... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 11: 3:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15BFF1531B for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:03:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10548; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:09:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd010449; Tue Nov 23 12:09:29 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA02665; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:02:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911231902.MAA02665@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:02:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <383AB4A4.9B471944@trltech.co.uk> from "Richard Smith" at Nov 23, 99 03:37:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >I could release my new megasuite under either BSD or GPL and will > > >forfeit monetary gain through either route. > > > > Why is that? You are still allowed to charge for commercial products, > > correct? > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can choose to release _my_ product under > both the GPL and my commercial licence, charging for the latter. > > What the GPL prevents is people taking my GPLed product and charging for > a derived work. It doesn't restrict me in any way as the original > copyright holder. > > That was the point I was trying to make. Actually, it can restrict the original copyright holder from integrating patches sent to him by people whose access to the code was the result of them obtaining it via GPL, since the patches are derivative of the GPL'ed work. > I agree that the GPL is insidious, but you only really notice this when > you look at the community as a whole, with each individual copyright > holder mutually locking each other into the GPL. Case in point of it applying to the original author. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 11:22:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C0D6152CA for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 11qLUz-000Csl-00; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:21:09 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA59375 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:21:09 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:21:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: RAD and CASE for Unix Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Question: When Unix starts getting its fair share of Rapid Application Development tools and Computer Aided Software Engineering tools, (this has already begun in KDEveloper and others, i believe), would you expect the resulting software to be more, less, or equally stable when compared to similar products running on Windows? Are we going to see an avalanche of bug-infested bloatware ? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 11:45:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FD315371 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:45:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA34238; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:43:55 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:43:55 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > Question: When Unix starts getting its fair share of Rapid Application > Development tools and Computer Aided Software Engineering tools, (this has > already begun in KDEveloper and others, i believe), would you expect the > resulting software to be more, less, or equally stable when compared to > similar products running on Windows? Are we going to see an avalanche of > bug-infested bloatware ? Isn't that what Rapid Application Disaster and Computer assisted software explosion tools are all about? David scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 12:13:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C631535A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20937; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:08:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991123130316.04607100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:08:44 -0700 To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk, Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <383AB4A4.9B471944@trltech.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:37 PM 11/23/1999 +0000, Richard Smith wrote: >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can choose to release _my_ product under >both the GPL and my commercial licence, charging for the latter. You can try. But when you release code under the GPL, you set the market value of its functionality at zero (since an informed consumer will not pay for it if it is available for free). This means that it is unwise for another developer to pay to license your code, because he is paying money for something whose market value is zero. Likewise, a user who buys an enhanced version of your product (if you publish one) will only pay for the value of the incremental enhancements you have made. >What the GPL prevents is people taking my GPLed product If you publish your source under a license such as the BSD license, they are not "taking" it. You have already freely given it, which is a good thing. What's more, if that person makes money from a derived work, his profit (if any; most software companies don't ever make money) will likewise stem only from HIS improvements -- because the base functionality is already available for free. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 12:13:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D88B153AC; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:13:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20971; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:13:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991123131034.047b2510@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:13:02 -0700 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19991123111417.ADEA714BEC@hub.freebsd.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19991122231524.0442bdd0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:14 AM 11/23/1999 -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > as a swag (silly wild as guess) one might say: > > free speech refers to a constraint on the powers of >government. > > free code refers to a constraint on the powers of companies. Not a very good analogy, IMHO, for several reasons. First, individuals are handicapped more by the GPL than are large companies. Second, the First Amendment actually says, "Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech," etc. Thus, the First Amendment actually dictates an ABSENCE of constraints, whereas the GPL is all about setting up constraints that sabotage individuals and businesses. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 12:18:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DCC315320 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21031; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:17:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991123131420.047f5370@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:17:21 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911231838.LAA01689@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199911230506.XAA06976@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:38 PM 11/23/1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >With respect... > >"Open Source" is a common law trademark of the Open Source Initiative. As I understand it, the "Open Source Initiative" people were denied a trademark registration by the USPTO and subsequently dropped any claim of ownership of the mark. Also, any attempt to use the abbreviation "OSI" in a mark would likely fail, due to conflicts with well-established names used by the International Standards Organization (e.g. the "ISO [networking] Model"). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 12:49:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F87E15396 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:49:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qMsJ-000FiP-00; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:49:19 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA60773; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:49:18 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:49:18 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991123130316.04607100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >What's more, if that person makes money from a derived work, his profit >(if any; most software companies don't ever make money) will likewise >stem only from HIS improvements -- because the base functionality is >already available for free. Correct me if i'm wrong, but you are referring here to the BSD license, correct? Then what can the original author charge for? How is the basic functionality 'free' if it is sold commercially? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 12:55:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from logisticsoftware.co.nz (logisticsoftware.co.nz [202.37.163.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3661B14C4F for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:55:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@logisticsoftware.co.nz) Received: from jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz [10.1.3.1]) by logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07137; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:54:52 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from jonc@localhost) by jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA97184; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:54:52 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jonc) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:54:52 +1300 From: Jonathan Chen To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Message-ID: <19991124095452.D96800@jonc.logisticsoftware.co.nz> References: <4.2.0.58.19991123130316.04607100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: ; from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org on Tue, Nov 23, 1999 at 08:49:18PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Nov 23, 1999 at 08:49:18PM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > >What's more, if that person makes money from a derived work, his profit > >(if any; most software companies don't ever make money) will likewise > >stem only from HIS improvements -- because the base functionality is > >already available for free. > > Correct me if i'm wrong, but you are referring here to the BSD license, > correct? Then what can the original author charge for? How is the basic > functionality 'free' if it is sold commercially? Since the original author has released it under the BSD license, he/she has opted to give the code to the community. It's Free. However anyone, including the author, can decide to charge an uninformed person for the software. Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When you want to test the depth of a stream, don't use both feet. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 12:58: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE68153F9 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:57:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21441; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:56:32 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991123135227.046b6a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:56:25 -0700 To: Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Cc: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991123130316.04607100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:49 PM 11/23/1999 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >What's more, if that person makes money from a derived work, his profit > >(if any; most software companies don't ever make money) will likewise > >stem only from HIS improvements -- because the base functionality is > >already available for free. > >Correct me if i'm wrong, but you are referring here to the BSD license, >correct? Then what can the original author charge for? How is the basic >functionality 'free' if it is sold commercially? When a product is published under *either* the GPL or the BSD license, the market value of its functionality is set at zero because it is available for free. The BSD license, however, allows a developer to add improvements and attempt to market the result. Any profit which that developer derives from doing so will be solely the result of the functionality he has added, since the base functionality is already available for free. Thus, he has not "taken" anything -- his profits, if any, are the result of his own efforts. The GPL, however, begrudges the developer even the chance to profit from additions which are uniquely his. It thus undermines him and threatens his livelihood. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 13: 0:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AC414BDD for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:00:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qN3L-000DxN-00; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:00:43 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA61005; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:00:42 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:00:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991123135227.046b6a70@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So is there any such thing as binary only BSD licensing? Then it becomes 'Freeware' or 'Public Domain', right? But it seems BSD only applies to source code, of course. -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 13:17:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jezebel.demon.co.uk (jezebel.demon.co.uk [158.152.38.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 785911513B for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:17:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jezebel.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01181; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:19:23 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <383B04D9.87243A4E@trltech.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:19:21 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: My misconceptions about the GPL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Richard Smith wrote: > > >What the GPL prevents is people taking my GPLed product and charging for > >a derived work. It doesn't restrict me in any way as the original > >copyright holder. > > So, if i understand correctly, if you write an *original* work, and then > GPL it, you may charge for it and prevent anyone else from > creating/selling derivative works without revealing their changes. How can you charge for it? It's free (as in the free beer sense of free). > So basically, for an *original* work, the two licenses are very similar, > but *derivative* works under GPL require that the changes (intellectual > property) be made known, while the BSD license does not. So BSD > encourages modification for profit, while GPL does not? There are very few similarities me thinks, other than the fact that some people group them together as examples of "open source" licences, others do not :) With the BSD licence, I can create a derived work and sell it for profit _or_ I can contribute it back, it's my choice. Richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 13:24:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A851D1538D for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:24:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qNPm-000Goy-00; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:23:54 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA61353; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:23:54 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:23:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL In-Reply-To: <199911231902.MAA02665@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >Actually, it can restrict the original copyright holder from >integrating patches sent to him by people whose access to the >code was the result of them obtaining it via GPL, since the >patches are derivative of the GPL'ed work. If the product is distributed in source code anyway, how does this make a difference? Won't the improvements be incorporated one way or the other? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 13:31:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 219C2153BA for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14927; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Greg Lehey Cc: James A Wilde , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Programmers' editor? In-Reply-To: <19991123153032.60087@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 23 November 1999 at 12:49:10 -0800, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, James A Wilde wrote: > > > >> Related question from a greenhorn. > >> > >> Most of my editing is administrative editing of configuration > >> files and the like. For that vi is a pita with all that programmers > >> crap. The only functionality I use is x for delete, i for input, > >> Alt $ for goto eol (I don't know how you get to the beginning) and > >> d with the down arrow to remove two lines, which means that I often > >> have to insert a line first in order to delete the one line I need > >> to remove. > >> > >> Is there for UNIX something with the lack of complexity of the > >> DOS edit program? Simple marking, cutting, pasting is all I really > >> need. > >> > >> Thanks for any tips. > > > > you may want to try 'ee' it comes with freebsd and keeps it's help > > at the top. > > OK, so James is a newbie^H^H^H^H^H^Hgreenhorn now, but he probably > won't stay that way. I think it's counterproductive to recommend > dead-end editors like ee. > > Oh yes, and you should try Emacs [ducks] http://swarm.wustl.edu/~jxh/ed.html :) -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 13:33:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jezebel.demon.co.uk (jezebel.demon.co.uk [158.152.38.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B574D153D9 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:33:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jezebel.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01332; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:36:15 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <383B08CF.40D3FB7@trltech.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:36:15 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL References: <4.2.0.58.19991122123435.042bf850@localhost> <383A5D14.572D31E3@trltech.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Richard Smith wrote: > > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > The GPL does not meet the criteria for an open source license. First, > > it discriminates against a field of endeavor: the creation of > > commercial software. Second, it requires a "fee" before you can > > distribute works based upon the software: namely, the forfeiture of > > the value of your own code. For both of these reasons, the GPL > > is not a legitimate open source license. > > Surely this second point is _your_ misconception (and a common > misconception) about the GPL, namely, confusing owned code and derived > works. I withdraw this statement, I totally misinterpreted your second point, when I read it originally. Richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 13:40:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AFF153B1 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:39:07 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jonathon McKitrick" , "Terry Lambert" Cc: Subject: RE: Your misconceptions about the GPL Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:39:07 -0800 Message-ID: <000001bf35fb$2ba2dba0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Actually, it can restrict the original copyright holder from > >integrating patches sent to him by people whose access to the > >code was the result of them obtaining it via GPL, since the > >patches are derivative of the GPL'ed work. > If the product is distributed in source code anyway, how does this make a > difference? Won't the improvements be incorporated one way or the other? > -jm Suppose you develop a product and distribute it under the GPL instead of the BSD license. One possible reason you might do that is you think, "Well, I can sell exceptions to the GPL and maybe still make money." But suppose that once your software is released, several other developers make enhancements to it. And they make those enhancements public. You cannot include those enhancements in the versions you attempt to license for a fee. Over time, the value of the source code you originally released becomes less than zero. The enhanced versions, after all, are available to anyone for free, and your version is missing features their versions have. You have to be able to keep adding more value to your source than the rest of the world put together in order for your exceptions to have significant value. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 17:26:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF7B1500D; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:26:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24384; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:26:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991123182433.04426710@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:26:30 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , jmb@hub.freebsd.org (Jonathan M. Bresler) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Your misconceptions about the GPL Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199911231859.LAA02592@usr06.primenet.com> References: <19991123111417.ADEA714BEC@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:59 PM 11/23/1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >These connotations actually derive from the writs of mandamus >issued to captains of what were, essentially, pirate ships (but >because of the writs, "they're _our_ pirates"). This practice >began in 1861, if memory serves me correctly. Don't you mean a "Letter of Marque" rather than a "Writ of mandamus?" --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 18:52:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A759150BF for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:52:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kfurge@worldnet.att.net) Received: from kfurge.dyn.ez-ip.net ([12.75.197.218]) by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with ESMTP id <19991124025044.OVZJ2272@kfurge.dyn.ez-ip.net>; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 02:50:44 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kfurge.dyn.ez-ip.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA25972; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:40:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kfurge@worldnet.att.net) From: kfurge@worldnet.att.net Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:40:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: kfurge@kcfhome.my.domain To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Are we going to see an avalanche of bug-infested bloatware ? I'm sure that we will. However, the biggest difference is that the bug-infested bloatware can only hurt itself instead of killing the entire system. - K.C. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 20:32: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA27150BF for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:32:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-8.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.8]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id WAA27038 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:31:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03108 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:31:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199911240431.WAA03108@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: My misconceptions about the CPL (Cat Petting License) From: David Kelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:31:07 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Apparently the dark navy blue FreeBSD polo shirt attracts cats: http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/grumpy_smaller.jpg If you are a glutton for punishment, this is the full Kodak DC-290 camera resolution: http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/grumpy_fullsize.jpg -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 21: 4:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F94815528 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26513; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:04:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991123220312.040fb8c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:03:42 -0700 To: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: My misconceptions about the CPL (Cat Petting License) In-Reply-To: <199911240431.WAA03108@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's one big cat! Looks like s/he's got you pinned there. ;-) --Brett At 10:31 PM 11/23/1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >Apparently the dark navy blue FreeBSD polo shirt attracts cats: >http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/grumpy_smaller.jpg > >If you are a glutton for punishment, this is the full Kodak DC-290 >camera resolution: http://home.hiwaay.net/~dkelly/grumpy_fullsize.jpg > > >-- >David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net >===================================================================== >The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its >capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 21:14:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9801550A for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:14:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-8.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.8]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA02169; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:13:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03895; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:13:09 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199911240513.XAA03895@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: My misconceptions about the CPL (Cat Petting License) In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:03:42 MST." <4.2.0.58.19991123220312.040fb8c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:13:09 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > That's one big cat! Looks like s/he's got you pinned there. ;-) His name is Grumpy, 9 years old, and only looks big as he puffs himself up pretty good. He's somewhere around 10 pounds. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 23 22:32:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep7.mail.ozemail.net (fep7-old.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5892114ECD; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:32:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c9710216@atlas.newcastle.edu.au) Received: from atlas.newcastle.edu.au (slnew55p42.ozemail.com.au [203.108.151.120]) by fep7.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA11220; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:31:59 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <383B9403.6B162F59@atlas.newcastle.edu.au> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:30:11 +1100 From: "Jacob A. Hart" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org Subject: Unreal Tournament (demo) playable under FreeBSD. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd just like to mention that the Linux Unreal Tournament binaries work flawlessly under FreeBSD's Linux "emulation". This is *great* news because we now have both Q3A and UT -- this year's two hottest FPS releases -- completely playable under FreeBSD. Three cheers for the FreeBSD team! :-) Relevant hardware configuration: Intel PII Celeron @ 464MHz 128MB RAM 3DFX Voodoo II (SLI) Creative AWE64 PnP Relevant software installed: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #6: Wed Nov 24 02:16:41 EST 1999 linux_base-5.2 XFree86-3.3.5 Glide_V2-2.53-1.i386.glibc.rpm UTDemo-Linux-x86-348.tar.gz Issues: When using the newpcm sound driver, audio seems to be lagged behind the game by about 250-500ms. This is similiar to the audio lag when playing Q3A (but without the weird "flanger/phaser" sound artifacts). UT seems to ignore MESA/3DFX environment variables when executing. If you want to disable v-sync or increase your refresh rate, for instance, you'll have to manually edit the ${UTBASE}/System/UnrealTournament.ini file. There's also a ${UTBASE}/README.Linux file that explains a few general issues with the Linux port of UT. Happy fragging ;-) -jake (obituary) Powered by FreeBSD c9710216@atlas.newcastle.edu.au http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 4:56:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vinyl.sentex.ca (vinyl.sentex.ca [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5590D150D8 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 04:56:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite-atm.sentex.ca [209.112.4.1]) by vinyl.sentex.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17825 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:56:11 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from ospf-mdt.sentex.net (ospf-mdt.sentex.net [205.211.164.81]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA16875 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:56:10 -0500 (EST) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:56:09 GMT Message-ID: <383bdf89.202795184@mail.sentex.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23 Nov 1999 21:52:58 -0500, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: >On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > >> Are we going to see an avalanche of bug-infested bloatware ? > >I'm sure that we will. However, the biggest difference is that the >bug-infested bloatware can only hurt itself instead of killing the entire >system. Come on folks, this is too simplistic. Take something like Delphi which compiles fast, tight code. RAD tools are no substitute for good design and coding practicies, they should be looked at as a set of tools to take the drudgery out of programming. I for one would really welcome some more modern development tools for FreeBSD. ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada "Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 6:17: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF317151CB for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:16:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qdDO-0001uB-00; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:16:10 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA74950; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:16:05 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:16:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Mike Tancsa Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix In-Reply-To: <383bdf89.202795184@mail.sentex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Mike Tancsa wrote: >>I'm sure that we will. However, the biggest difference is that the >>bug-infested bloatware can only hurt itself instead of killing the entire >>system. > >Come on folks, this is too simplistic. Take something like Delphi which >compiles fast, tight code. RAD tools are no substitute for good design and >coding practicies, they should be looked at as a set of tools to take the >drudgery out of programming. I for one would really welcome some more >modern development tools for FreeBSD. I would hope that there would be a middle ground somewhere. I think maybe an app that generates code but interfaces with another compiler (such as gcc) to allow more user options and portability. But i think RAD and CASE work great for GUI design and basic design layout. But i'm just a lowly computer science student/programming intern ;-) I think outputting source rather than object might reduce the chances of some company coming out with the equivalent of MFC for Unix, which then introduces proprietary closed source development. But, as said before, RAD and CASE are no substitue for good programming skills. VC++ and VB (even worse) have created a rash of programmers, but not accomplished designers or analysts. my $0.02 worth -jm "If it's a penny for your thoughts, but you put in your 2 cents worth, someone is making a penny somewhere." - Steven Wright To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 7: 3:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.monsterbymistake.com (monsterbymistake.com [205.207.163.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E5E14FDC for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drek@MonsterByMistake.Com) Received: from jazz.monsterbymistake.com (jazz.monsterbymistake.com[205.207.163.189]) by mail.monsterbymistake.com (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #3; 1998-Sep-25) (2080 bytes) via sendmail with /P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp id (sender ident using rfc1413) for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:54:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:26 -0500 (EST) From: Agent Drek To: Mike Tancsa Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix In-Reply-To: <383bdf89.202795184@mail.sentex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Mike Tancsa wrote: |Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:56:09 GMT |From: Mike Tancsa |To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG |Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix | |On 23 Nov 1999 21:52:58 -0500, in sentex.lists.freebsd.chat you wrote: | |>On Tue, 23 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: |> |>> Are we going to see an avalanche of bug-infested bloatware ? |> |>I'm sure that we will. However, the biggest difference is that the |>bug-infested bloatware can only hurt itself instead of killing the entire |>system. | |Come on folks, this is too simplistic. Take something like Delphi which |compiles fast, tight code. RAD tools are no substitute for good design and |coding practicies, they should be looked at as a set of tools to take the |drudgery out of programming. I for one would really welcome some more |modern development tools for FreeBSD. | | ---Mike |Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) |Sentex Communications Corp, |Waterloo, Ontario, Canada |"Given enough time, 100 monkeys on 100 routers |could setup a national IP network." (KDW2) | | |To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org |with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message | Why even compile? Use a scripting lang like python for RAD. Then you are not locked into a specific vendor and your code is portable from the get go. Python takes the 'drudgery' out of things for me. =derek Monster By Mistake Inc > 'digital plumber' http://www.interlog.com/~drek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 7:11: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E648114FDC for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:11:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qe4K-0002i8-00; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:10:52 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA75669; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:10:48 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:10:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Agent Drek Cc: Mike Tancsa , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Agent Drek wrote: >Why even compile? Use a scripting lang like python for RAD. Then you are not >locked into a specific vendor and your code is portable from the get go. Python >takes the 'drudgery' out of things for me. > I'm totally python ignorant (time to start learning ;-) but i asssume it supports GUI management and the like? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 7:22:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.monsterbymistake.com (monsterbymistake.com [205.207.163.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0974A15242 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drek@MonsterByMistake.Com) Received: from jazz.monsterbymistake.com (jazz.monsterbymistake.com[205.207.163.189]) by mail.monsterbymistake.com (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #3; 1998-Sep-25) (1675 bytes) via sendmail with /P:esmtp/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp id (sender ident using rfc1413) for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:10:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:29:24 -0500 (EST) From: Agent Drek To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Mike Tancsa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: |Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:10:47 +0000 (GMT) |From: Jonathon McKitrick |To: Agent Drek |Cc: Mike Tancsa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG |Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix | |On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Agent Drek wrote: |>Why even compile? Use a scripting lang like python for RAD. Then you are not |>locked into a specific vendor and your code is portable from the get go. Python |>takes the 'drudgery' out of things for me. |> | |I'm totally python ignorant (time to start learning ;-) but i asssume it |supports GUI management and the like? | |-jm | Has a good interface to Tk. I think that O'Reilly has a book coming out soon Re: Building Gui's with python Python is very is to pickup because there's no crazy syntax to learn. http://www.python.org cheers, =derek Monster By Mistake Inc > 'digital plumber' http://www.interlog.com/~drek To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 7:36:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.originative.co.uk (no-dns-yet.demon.co.uk [194.217.50.230]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E70414A21 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:35:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: from originative.co.uk (tiddler.originative.co.uk [194.217.50.235]) by mail.originative.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254317C59; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:34:34 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <383C05DB.8483B157@originative.co.uk> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:35:55 +0000 From: Paul Richards X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD at COMDEX References: <4.2.0.58.19991120090553.0463a200@localhost> <19991122163813.39441@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 20 November 1999 at 10:34:52 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > FreeBSD got a small, but not insignificant, amount of attention. Red Hat > > CEO Robert Young even mentioned it in his keynote -- a pleasant surprise. > > Interesting. I wonder why. What did he say? Robert Young has bigger plans for Red Hat than just Linux, he's looking at the whole open source movement. I wonder if FreeBSD is something he's contemplating for the future? Paul Richards Originative Solutions Ltd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 8:27:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 629AC155A1 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:27:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA39388 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:27:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:27:05 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: November BAFUG meeting in Berkeley Message-ID: <19991124082705.B39351@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) Thursdays BAFUG meeting in Berkeley has been canceled due to Thanksgiving. As some of you know, this coming Thursday, November 24, is thanksgiving. Unfortunely this author failed calendar in college as demonstrated by his instance on scheduleding a BAFUG meeting on this date. Our next BAFUG meeting is December 9th at Whistle Communications in Foster city followed by our regular Berkeley meeting which will be on December 23rd. Happy Thanksgiving Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 9:34:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCBE15184 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:34:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA08767; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:33:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAzAaGbr; Wed Nov 24 10:33:05 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA17679; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:33:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199911241733.KAA17679@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix To: jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (Jonathon McKitrick) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:33:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jonathon McKitrick" at Nov 23, 99 07:21:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Question: When Unix starts getting its fair share of Rapid Application > Development tools and Computer Aided Software Engineering tools, (this has > already begun in KDEveloper and others, i believe), would you expect the > resulting software to be more, less, or equally stable when compared to > similar products running on Windows? Are we going to see an avalanche of > bug-infested bloatware ? RAD is a path to bug-infested bloatware, if it is not used properly, since it results in user interfaces being designed before the guts have been designed, and anything that does that will result in an incomplete mapping of the problem space. CASE tools are a different matter, particularly those which specify interfaces and object relationships, and do so in a high level way, such as by allowing the creation of design patterns using UML as an implementation tool. Such tools can generate class definitions for OO languages (and even non-OO languages, like C: think X widgets) that can be used as a basis for implementation, after the abstract relationship between objects has been codified in the design of the objects themselves. Rational Rose is a (poor) example of what such a tool could be. CASE can also support testing and documentation efforts, as well as literate programming. Though it is $50,000 a seat, I think that the "BattleMap" CASE tool is excellent; it enforces literate programming, and does a full branch-path analysis on the code, which can effectively be used to automate the generation of code coverage test cases. The literate programming aspect allows you to test implementation vs. specification, seperate from the idea of simple code coverage; this ensures that the specification and the documentation for the applciation match what the application really does. The "BattleMap" tool runs on Solaris and other platforms; it does _not_ run on Windows platforms. Test tools like "Purify" are somewhere in the middle. Note that "Purify" relies on the underlying OS unmapping page zero in order to catch pointer dereferences, and on a tightly controlled per process virtual address space to catch things going off into the weeds. Purify could not perform nearly as well on Windows systems because of this (and would have problems on Linux, due to NULL pointers to standard functions not being fatal, as they should be, in many places in the Linux libc). Visual C++ and Visual Basic, as well as most Java IDE tools, are not what I would call CASE tools, since they do not assist software engineering, they only assist programming, which is something very different. Consider that if we had a UML model of the FreeBSD VM system, and were able to validate implementation vs. design, we would be able to quickly and easily identify and then eliminate the VM bugs that have haunted FreeBSD for years now. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 24 10:26:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBFF152D4 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:26:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11qh5G-0000gV-00; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:24:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA01505; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:24:01 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:24:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RAD and CASE for Unix In-Reply-To: <199911241733.KAA17679@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Very interesting... On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >such as by allowing the creation of design patterns using UML as What does UML stand for? >weeds. Purify could not perform nearly as well on Windows systems >because of this (and would have problems on Linux, due to NULL Does Purify only run on unix/solaris? >Visual C++ and Visual Basic, as well as most Java IDE tools, are >not what I would call CASE tools, since they do not assist software >engineering, they only assist programming, which is something very >different. Thus the proliferation of good-looking poorly engineered products, especially for winodws. -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 25 19:59:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC3A14BDC; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:59:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16002; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:59:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991125205600.00c4b520@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:58:54 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: GPL humor Cc: jkh@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_750111==_" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --=====================_750111==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dozing in front of the fire after a hearty Thanksgiving meal, I couldn't help but engage in a bit of fanciful daydreaming. Here's the result.... 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with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 25 21:14:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C30C14C36; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:14:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-4-132.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.4.132]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA02006; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:13:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <383E16E9.67CB5811@hiwaay.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:13:13 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jacob A. Hart" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-emulation@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Unreal Tournament (demo) playable under FreeBSD. References: <383B9403.6B162F59@atlas.newcastle.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jacob A. Hart wrote: > Relevant hardware configuration: > > Intel PII Celeron @ 464MHz > 128MB RAM > 3DFX Voodoo II (SLI) > Creative AWE64 PnP Voodoo2? When did this make it? I've got one I've been _itching_ to use under FreeBSD.... -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 26 5:16:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep9.mail.ozemail.net (fep9.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E528415007; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 05:16:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c9710216@atlas.newcastle.edu.au) Received: from atlas.newcastle.edu.au (slnew54p36.ozemail.com.au [203.108.151.52]) by fep9.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA19109; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:15:57 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <383E95BB.ED55A357@atlas.newcastle.edu.au> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 01:14:19 +1100 From: "Jacob A. Hart" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kirby Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-emulation@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Unreal Tournament (demo) playable under FreeBSD. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Jacob A. Hart wrote: >> Relevant hardware configuration: >> >> Intel PII Celeron @ 464MHz >> 128MB RAM >> 3DFX Voodoo II (SLI) >> Creative AWE64 PnP > >Voodoo2? When did this make it? I've got one I've been _itching_ to use >under FreeBSD.... I've been using my Voodoo II cards for around 7-8 months under FreeBSD... guess I should have said something earlier ;-) The Voodoo II Linux-Glide drivers aren't part of ports, AFAIK, so you'll have to snarf the RPM and install it manually. You can get it from: http://www.3dfxgamers.com/docs/IO/36/ATT/Glide_V2-2.53-1.i386.glibc.rpm Then just fire up Q3A or UT. >-- >Kris Kirby, KE4AHR > >------------------------------------------- >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. -jake (obituary) Powered by FreeBSD c9710216@atlas.newcastle.edu.au http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 26 19:53: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail4.lig.bellsouth.net (mail4.lig.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 299B114E46 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:52:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j2sutter@bellsouth.net) Received: from bellsouth.net (host-209-214-173-178.bgk.bellsouth.net [209.214.173.178]) by mail4.lig.bellsouth.net (3.3.5alt/0.75.2) with ESMTP id WAA19822 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:52:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383F581B.4629677B@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 23:03:40 -0500 From: Jonh Sutter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What does the name Sutter mean and where did it orginate? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am doing a report and need to know the meaning of the name Sutter and where it orginated. Thanks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 27 17:22:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (azazel.zer0.org [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2539F15568 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:22:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@azazel.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id RAA78327; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:21:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:21:37 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Jonh Sutter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What does the name Sutter mean and where did it orginate? Message-ID: <19991127172136.B13897@azazel.zer0.org> References: <383F581B.4629677B@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <383F581B.4629677B@bellsouth.net> Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 11:03:40PM -0500, Jonh Sutter wrote: > I am doing a report and need to know the meaning of the name Sutter and > where it orginated. Thanks Switzerland. Now why are you posting this to freebsd-chat, a totally unrelated forum? You're giving us Sutters a bad name. Email me privately and I can give you some information. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 27 19:18:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF71F1559B for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 20095 invoked from network); 28 Nov 1999 03:18:42 -0000 Received: from userad63.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.131.106) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 28 Nov 1999 03:18:42 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA76731; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 03:18:58 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 03:17:25 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Jonh Sutter , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What does the name Sutter mean and where did it orginate? Message-ID: <19991128031725.A75811@marder-1> References: <383F581B.4629677B@bellsouth.net> <19991127172136.B13897@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991127172136.B13897@azazel.zer0.org> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 05:21:37PM -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 11:03:40PM -0500, Jonh Sutter wrote: > > I am doing a report and need to know the meaning of the name Sutter and > > where it orginated. Thanks > > Switzerland. Now why are you posting this to freebsd-chat, a totally > unrelated forum? Hmm, I thought -chat was for...err...well...um...chat? > You're giving us Sutters a bad name. Email me > privately and I can give you some information. > Nah, Cc: it to -chat, I'd be interested, mind you, ISTR that this has been discussed before, Sutter Home vineyards etc. > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. > mailto:gsutter@pobox.com > http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ > PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 27 23:13:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1016514D75 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:13:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA59069; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:12:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:12:04 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Mark Ovens Cc: Gregory Sutter , Jonh Sutter , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What does the name Sutter mean and where did it orginate? In-Reply-To: <19991128031725.A75811@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 05:21:37PM -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > You're giving us Sutters a bad name. Email me > > privately and I can give you some information. > > > > Nah, Cc: it to -chat, I'd be interested, mind you, ISTR that this has > been discussed before, Sutter Home vineyards etc. Talk about giving the Sutters a bad name! David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message