From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 0:26:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8B837B424 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:26:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4K7Pak64268; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:25:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Greg Lehey" , "Don Wilde" , "Anders Nordby" , , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:25:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0e0fe$0fb1cf00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010519162038.E9158@lpt.ens.fr> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Rahul >Siddharthan >Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 7:21 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Greg Lehey; Don Wilde; Anders Nordby; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; >core@daemonnews.org >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >Ted Mittelstaedt said on May 18, 2001 at 22:54:10: >> >> Yes, there's no shortage of BSD followers bashing GPL, and >> vis-versa. But, I guess I don't see the bashing being carried out >> by the BSD leadership, like McKusick for example. Contrast this to >> Linus calling MacOS X "crap" > >Er, he didn't do that. He called the Mach microkernel, and the >general idea of microkernels, crap. And there's nothing new in that: >it's been his opinion for over 10 years. > He didn't take pains to separate Mach from BSD when it was reported. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he did indeed tell the reporters the complete story. But, that's not how it was reported, and in addition the timing of that remark was taken as a slam against MacOS X, not against Mach. There was no followup from Linus either explaining that he had been misreported, either. > >The problem wasn't putting one acknowledgement. It was putting >additional acknowledgements for each contributor. See, for example, > >http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html > > When people put many such programs together in an operating system, > the result is a serious problem. Imagine if a software system required > 75 different sentences, each one naming a different author or group of > authors. To advertise that, you would need a full-page ad. > > This might seem like extrapolation ad absurdum, but it is actual fact. > NetBSD comes with a long list of different sentences, required by the > various licenses for parts of the system. In a 1997 version of NetBSD, > I counted 75 of these sentences. I would not be surprised if the list > has grown by now. > So what? I guess that I fail to see the justification for NOT acknowledging someone's contribution. It's not like everyone that signs on gets royalties or something where you have to track it carefully. In any case, I read Bruce's original pages that were part of OSI (they are still out there on the web somewhere) and the problem WASN'T additional contributors, it was listing UCB that they didn't like. Simply that. They recommended the X license instead of BSD just because they said that it was a burden to list UCB's name somewhere buried in the docs as credit. That was all. In fact, the current pointer to the MIT license that's in the BSD page on OSI is a vestige of that bias. > >There are plenty of other issues out there. This is my trouble with >the BSD crowd: on the one hand there are claims that "we aren't into >grabbing attention", on the other hand there are cribs when the linux >people do. And the issues are important: the LZW patent and gifs, the >DVD/DeCSS issue (in fact Johansen used a FreeBSD machine, but it was >the linux people who jumped to his support), there's something new >along these lines almost every week now. If it worries you that Bruce >Perens is making all the noise, why don't *you* go out and make some >noise yourself? > Unfortunately, what you have listed here are basically non-issues, or they are past the point of "making noise. For starters, the LZW patent is expiring this year, so soon we will be able to use gifs, besides the fact that enough commercial software firms have already paid Unisys their extortion fee that it's a moot issue. Secondly, as far as DeCSS goes, under the DMCA that our idiotic congress and President passed 2 years ago, posting source to DeCSS is illegal on the Internet, although it's perfectly legal (due to Freedom of Speech) to publish it in a book. That's one law that's ripe for a court case to get it overturned in the US, but that's a battle that isn't going to be fought by anyone bitching about it, it's a battle that will be fought with a lot of money paid to lawyers to sort it all out. There ARE some things that are still in the stage where making noise would be useful, and I have made some myself already, in my column venue. Never fear about that! >My present crib with Microsoft is that I find it absolutely impossible >(here in France) to buy a laptop machine that doesn't have windows >pre-installed on it. If I want a laptop computer, I can't avoid >paying Bill Gates, whether I use his software or not. Does that kind >of thing worry you? It worries the linux people, and they do make a >noise about it, and I'm sure they could use some help. Or you can >start a movement about it on your own. > This is your problem, I can't help you. Why - because since Windows is a separate item, you can return it. A number of people have done so until Microsoft changed the shrinkwrap so that if you open the package (before booting the system up) you have accepted purchase of the software. Here in the US this is currently legal - there's several pending court cases on shrinkwrap licenses that are trying to change this. But, in France, if the government of France wants to outlaw this kind of license they can do so - and then you can simply return the license for the software back to the laptop manufacturer and get credit for it. The reson that you haven't seen more activity on this issue in the US is because we are waiting the results of the Microsoft Anti-Trust trial. Remember that Microsoft is still in appeal - so technically they are still not guilty. Once they are found guilty then all of the contracts they have with the OEM's that mandate Windows preloads will be held illegal, and this problem will probably go away. >I can think of quite a few other issues which you could take up, if >these aren't important enough. > There are and I have already. But, I still think that the attempt by GPL to convince the general populace that GPL is the only way that you can do Free Software, is more of a serious issue then most of the rest of them. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 0:34:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5467337B424 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:34:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4K7YDk64293; Sun, 20 May 2001 00:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "David Johnson" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 00:34:13 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0e0ff$44725600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010520090301.L64759@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@lemis.com] >Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:33 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: David Johnson; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >Well, it's not Tim O'Reilly any more, it's his editors. > :-) Yes, that may be the case but ultimately Tim is responsible. Certainly if Tim told his editors to find and get a BSD book out, I would think they would be quite more motivated than they are. >A bit of background: Some years ago O'Reilly printed the complete >4.4BSD Lite documentation in five volumes. It was a complete flop. >As a result, they've been very wary about bringing out another book on >BSD. > Well, I remember paging through that in the bookstore once, and while I admit I didn't look through all volumes (they wern't all there) what I remember of it was mainly reprints of the system manual pages. Not much to recommend purchase as the price was rather high. > >Why don't you? No, they didn't want "The Complete FreeBSD". Instead >I'm writing a book for them with the tentative title "Advanced BSD >System Administration". > That's the best BSD book news I've heard in a long time! I do hope that it sees print - lots can derail these projects. > >Wind River has stated that they do want to be in the publishing >business, though I agree that's a bit surprising. > Hmm... Well the proof is in the pudding as they say, and we will just need to see The Complete FreeBSD 4th Edition with Wind River's name on it, now won't we? ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 4: 7:59 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B64FB37B424 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 04:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4KB7gR86952 ; Sun, 20 May 2001 13:07:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id NAA52755 ; Sun, 20 May 2001 13:08:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 13:08:10 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Greg Lehey , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010520130810.A52134@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Ted Mittelstaedt , Greg Lehey , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org References: <20010519162038.E9158@lpt.ens.fr> <000001c0e0fe$0fb1cf00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000001c0e0fe$0fb1cf00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Sun, May 20, 2001 at 12:25:35AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > He didn't take pains to separate Mach from BSD when it was reported. I'll > give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he did indeed tell the > reporters the complete story. But, that's not how it was reported, I didn't try to dig out the complete story, but as I remember, though the headline suggested he called Mac OS X crap, the story itself never said it or suggested it. I have no idea whether he followed up on it. > Unfortunately, what you have listed here are basically non-issues, or > they are past the point of "making noise. For starters, the LZW patent is > expiring this year, It's expiring in 2003, and even if it were expiring this year, the issue has been around for quite a while. > extortion fee that it's a moot issue. Secondly, as far as DeCSS goes, > under the DMCA that our idiotic congress and President passed 2 years > ago, posting source to DeCSS is illegal on the Internet, although it's > perfectly legal (due to Freedom of Speech) to publish it in a book. That's > one law that's ripe for a court case to get it overturned in the US, but > that's a battle that isn't going to be fought by anyone bitching about it, > it's a battle that will be fought with a lot of money paid to lawyers to > sort it all out. Which is what the EFF is doing. But they could use help. Not just money, but expert advice. Aren't there enough experts in the BSD community? An "amicus curiae" was filed in support of the EFF's position. Signatories included RMS (of course), but also Avi Rubin, Brian Kernighan, Marvin Minsky, and various others, many of them academic/university researchers. Was there anyone from the BSD world, which has always been well connected with academia? http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/NY/ Guiding public opinion on these things is important too. Plenty of linux people have made well-argued statements in the media. If any BSD people have, I missed it. Anyway, this is quite a big topic... not sure it's appropriate on this list. Rahul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 7:48:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FD737B422 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 07:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938C95F0F for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:48:21 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:48:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" From: markemmanuel To: FreeBSD advocacy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There has been a history of people supporting the GPL style of licensing publicly attacking BSD supporters and the license. It makes no sense to argue which is better or which isn't. It's such an individualistic choice by a company or a person. One isn't better than the other. I mean geez... BSD uses a boatload of GPL'd tools. Personally, I like the BSD license because it doesn't force me to do anything. If I ever decided to code for anything GPL'd, it kinda makes me feel like I'm doing time for using the software. Then again, it is ultimately your decision to contribute or not. If you don't like BSD, don't use it. If you don't like GPL'd don't use it. Honestly, the people that tend to argue the BSD vs. GPL case on either side often are doo doo heads with nothing better to do. To understand what I mean just check out any thread on slashdot, linuxtoday or even on these mailing lists. Okay, I'm done ranting now. Have a nice day! :) markemmanuel Quoted from the Book of Greg Lehey Ch 6:7-13 on 5/18/01 6:58 PM: > There's a history of BSD people publically putting down the GPL > license, and then something like this "Free Software Leaders Stand > Together" comes along and they make no effort to publically reach out > to the BSD people. When they attempt to make up for it, some BSD > people get up on their hind legs and doubt their motives. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 8:24:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6386137B424 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726CE5E1F for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 10:24:11 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:24:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" From: markemmanuel To: FreeBSD advocacy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000101c0e029$dabbde00$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoted from the Book of Ted Mittelstaedt Ch 6:7-13 on 5/19/01 1:06 AM: > Um, I happen to know that Tim O'Reilly has been approached with SEVERAL > FreeBSD book projects, including my own, and has turned them all down. > Well, mine is successful (at least, I'm told it is although I have yet > to see sales figures) and how smart is it for a book publisher to turn > down a successful book project and let a competitor take it? That was a > political decision, not a professional one. > > Ask Greg if he's had any luck shopping HIS book to O'Reilly. Not that I > have any evidence that he ever has done so, but I'd be surprised if he > hasn't. I wouldn't think that Wind River is going to want to be in the > book publishing business, and it's a natural and obvious move for The > Complete FreeBSD to go to O'Reilly. Certainly it would enhance the book, > it would enhance O'Reilly, and it would help BSD penetration. > > O'Reilly makes plenty of money off Linux, and has much vested interest > in GPL. And, I didn't call them "fanatics", you just did. Since MacOS X came out, there have been a number of MacOS X articles on their website. Don't they have books on Apache and isn't Apache under a BSD like license? GPLesque software is also in fashion as well. It's no wonder why they're focusing on GPL licensed software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 8:24:19 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719C437B42C for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 08:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28405DD0 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 10:24:12 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 10:24:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" From: markemmanuel To: FreeBSD advocacy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoted from the Book of Ted Mittelstaedt Ch 6:7-13 on 5/19/01 12:54 AM: > Yes, there's no shortage of BSD followers bashing GPL, and vis-versa. Bu= t, > I guess I don't see the bashing being carried out by the BSD leadership, > like > McKusick for example. Contrast this to Linus calling MacOS X "crap" Linus called MacOS X crap because it is a micro kernel instead of a monolithic kernel. I don't recall Mr. Torvalds stating it's crap because aspects of it was BSD based. > And, as far as public statements, Bruce's "FREE SOFTWARE LEADERS STAND > TOGETHER" > document stands for itself as an example of the proof of my statement tha= t > they (meaning GPL) are rapidly becoming more united. Yeah, they're becoming more united but I stopped using Linux temporarily because their community support and the community in general started acting like elitists towards new users like me. I often see that in any organization. I also don't like that viral feeling I get from them. It seems like a Microsoft mentality except it's an open source initiative. That bothers me also. They also claim they have this Cathedral and Bazaar thing going on where developers in the bazaar improves builds and improves the code. Often times, it feels like Linus is the Pope of Linux and he has the ultimate say so as to what goes into the kernel. The BSDs seems to be more like a republic. This is an entirely different topic. To quote R. Kelly... "'Who gives a f#=A2k about what they think,' is what my Audrey used to say. 'You just keep doing own thing boy and see your praises come your way'" We'll see what happens in the near future with the Linux trying to not fragment because of all those distributions creating new 'standards' It is certainly annoying to work with RedHat and then use Debian for find that things are placed in different directories. I also don't like the fact that some software is packaged in rpms instead of debs. Again, these are only my opinions. Markemmanuel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 15: 7:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DCD37B424 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 15:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4KLumk66067; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" Cc: "Greg Lehey" , "Don Wilde" , "Anders Nordby" , , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 14:56:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0e177$c3efbbc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010520130810.A52134@lpt.ens.fr> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Rahul >Siddharthan >Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 4:08 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Greg Lehey; Don Wilde; Anders Nordby; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; >core@daemonnews.org >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > > >Which is what the EFF is doing. But they could use help. Not just >money, but expert advice. Aren't there enough experts in the BSD >community? > >An "amicus curiae" was filed in support of the EFF's position. >Signatories included RMS (of course), but also Avi Rubin, Brian >Kernighan, Marvin Minsky, and various others, many of them >academic/university researchers. Was there anyone from the BSD world, >which has always been well connected with academia? >http://eon.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/NY/ > >Guiding public opinion on these things is important too. Plenty of >linux people have made well-argued statements in the media. If any >BSD people have, I missed it. > >Anyway, this is quite a big topic... not sure it's appropriate on >this list. > It probably isn't, but Sunday's a slow day and I don't think anyone will shoot us... I can't speak for other countries but the United States has Freedom of Speech written into the constitution, so really, making the posting of DeCSS illegal is pretty much fundamentally at odds to that. Everyone knows this, of course, but knowing what's right and getting an illegal law passed in favor of you and your cronies are two different things. In this case the MPAA didn't copyright the DeCSS code, so there's no copyright infringement there by posting the code, and only the act of using the code is the violation - you can't go after the people that told you houw to do it. Similar issues have happened with, for example, the Physics student who several years ago wrote a thesis explaining how to make a crude atomic bomb, based completely on unclassified materials. It pissed off the DoA, (who promptly reclassifed a few key items) but they couldn't go after him, although if anyone had actually tied to _make_ a bomb, then there would have been a variety of laws to use to go after them. It's clear to many legal authorities that the DMCA violates the US Constitution in many places. But, just because a majority of people may run around claiming it does, this means nothing legally in the US. If you think that well-argued statements in the media against the DMCA, or an "amicus curiae" in support of the EFF, matters at all to the judge/jury and outcome of this case, you don't understand the US court system. The only thing that really matters today in the US Court system is the amount of money that each of the litigants can use to pay lawyers. The only thing that will help the EFF to get the DeCSS case won, and ultimately get the DMCA overturned, in this case is lots of donations. But, it really doesen't stop there because that would only affect US law - there's still the matter of laws in other countries. Personally, I really think that the whole DeCSS debate is pointless anyway. Obviously, the MPAA has the money to replace CSS on DVD's with a new encryption standard, and they have the contracts in place with the DVD manufacturers to require "copyguard" chips to be included in all DVD players. Whether they win or lose now, it's a moot issue because DeCSS exists thus CSS has been broken. It seems evident that their only choice is dumping CSS and replacing it with a new scrambling system. My point of view is that this is just a natural progression of the movie, or "content production" industries. Years ago, Hollywood realized that they had to control not only the manufacture of, but the distribution of movies, as a result they got their fingers into all of the theatres. Today, they are still there, although they don't outright own theatre chains, they retain control of content distribution in theatre with contracts. When video tape and other electronic playback technologies came out, the movie studios decided they would just ignore them, and see what would happen. Now, they are finding that the electronic distribution channel is so big that they have to do the same thing all over again as they did 50 years ago with the theatre chains. The difference now is that the distribution channel is not just people like Blockbuster Video Rentals, but it's also people like Sony who produce the equipment that the media gets played on. Ultimately, your going to see the movie studios win this one, because they really do have a monopoly on movie entertainment production in this country, let alone the world. It's like people trying to go up against the DeBeers company, and break open the diamond monopoly. Diamond production is a monopolized industry and all of the major governments of the world have basically signed off on this. Well, movie production is a monopolized industry, and all of the major governments of the world have signed off on that too. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 20 18: 9: 2 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9198937B422 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:08:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 31BC86ACBC; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:38:57 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:38:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010521103857.H30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <3B05D780.140DEB8A@dnr.state.ak.us> <000301c0e02a$bd48ffa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000301c0e02a$bd48ffa0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:12:53PM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 23:12:53 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > On Friday, May 18, 2001 7:17 PM, Brian Raynes wrote: >> >> And why would programmers on the GPL side fear the BSD license? Unless >> I've completely missed something, they could quite easily make use of >> all the BSD code they like in GPL software. The idea that nothing in >> the original is lost if someone uses it elsewhere still applies, for >> both licenses. > > Because, IF your desired goal of GPL is to "virally infect" all > software to force it to be open, then you would rightly fear BSD > because it's an alternative. What does this have to do with reality? Again, it sounds like FUD. > Actually, it's not the BSD license that the GPL fears as much as the > _idea_ of the BSD license. The BSD license assumes people will do > the Right Thing and open their code. There's no hooks in there to > force people to do it. GPL on the other hand forces you to open > your code, and there are hooks to do it. > > If you want all Open Source software to be GPL "contaminated" so > that it will be forced to be open forever, then the last thing you > want is BSD licensing that allows people to take their modifications > private. You're about the only person talking about "contamination". I wish you'd stop. You're just helping polarize the community, something the rest of us are working against. Let me give a counterexample. This polarization is not to our advantage. It's not to the GPL community's advantage either. About the only group who could benefit by increased polarization in the free software community is Microsoft. I note a surprising Microsoft-centricity in your messages, including typical format breakage and a lack of trimming which ill befits an author. Are you maybe working in Microsoft's interests? Greg -- When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the original text. For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 0:33: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4686437B59E for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 00:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4L7Wfk67301; Mon, 21 May 2001 00:32:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Brian Raynes" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 00:32:41 -0700 Message-ID: <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010521103857.H30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey >Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:09 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >[Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > >On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 23:12:53 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> On Friday, May 18, 2001 7:17 PM, Brian Raynes wrote: >>> >>> And why would programmers on the GPL side fear the BSD license? Unless >>> I've completely missed something, they could quite easily make use of >>> all the BSD code they like in GPL software. The idea that nothing in >>> the original is lost if someone uses it elsewhere still applies, for >>> both licenses. >> >> Because, IF your desired goal of GPL is to "virally infect" all >> software to force it to be open, then you would rightly fear BSD >> because it's an alternative. > >What does this have to do with reality? Again, it sounds like FUD. > Greg, your just throwing out rediculous statements like this to create your own FUD and to be rediculous. Let me refer you to the following URL: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html And here are some statements from this: "At least one application program is free software today specifically because that was necessary for using Readline." (their definition of "free software" is GPL-licensed software) "This will be a significant advantage for further free software development, and some projects will decide to make software free in order to use these libraries. University projects can easily be influenced; nowadays, as companies begin to consider making software free, even some commercial projects can be influenced in this way" Once again, here the emphasis is on influencing the software to be GPL-licensed. "because we can achieve much more if we stand together. We free software developers should support one another. By releasing libraries that are limited to free software only, we can help..." Once again, his definition of the "free software developers" is very tight. It's defining the GPL-software developers, NOT the BSD license developers. Well, sorry, but I think that the BSD license is really what's all about freedom here, not the GPL. What the GPL is all about is forcing your idea of redistribution into other people's code, that is NOT freedom. Sure, they can choose to NOT use GPL - but like the document says, the aim is to get the GPL software so advanced and functional that even commercial software entities have no competitive choice other than to use GPL code. This is the point that I made earlier, it's the point that the GNU project makes in it's own writings. How many people need to sit here and bash this idea into your head until you get it? >You're about the only person talking about "contamination". I wish >you'd stop. You're just helping polarize the community, something the >rest of us are working against. > People like Bruce Perens are the ones working to polarize the Open Source community by shutting out BSD from press releases and important documents which we should be a part of, as well as by passing themselves off to the (generally ignorant) media as the "Free Software" community, when in reality they are NOT the entire "Free Software" community, just a subgroup. I'm the one jumping up and yelling "bullshit" and calling them out on the carpet over this. Sorry, but the polarization already existed, I'm not the one creating it, I'm just pointing out that it exists. If my bitching about it will make Bruce include BSD people next time, then I will have done far more to unite the Open Source community than anything that it appears that anyone else has done so far. >Let me give a counterexample. This polarization is not to our >advantage. It's not to the GPL community's advantage either. Um, well if that is the case then why didn't Bruce include us? And, frankly if the GPL leaders want to exclude BSD then, actually, it will help us, because it will enable us to independently identify ourselves instead of being labeled as "They are just more of those Linux guys" >About >the only group who could benefit by increased polarization in the >free >software community is Microsoft. Actually, they would benefit more by us being lumped together with Linux. If your engaged in a massive PR campaign against a competitor, like Microsoft is with GPL, then it is in your interest if you are successfully able to propagandize the market that your competitor is just one drop in an ocean of competitors. It makes it easier for the uninformed to simply dismiss Open Source (ie: Linux, get the picture) as just another Microsoft wannabe, that will be taken down eventually by Redmond, the same way that IBM, Novell, Netscape, and all of the rest of the Microsoft competitors have been. The last thing you want to have happen is for the market that your attempting to propagandize to get the idea that you are fighting a tidal wave of a LOT of competitors who have all signed on to the same idea - one that is different than yours. >I note a surprising >Microsoft-centricity in your messages, including typical format >breakage and a lack of trimming which ill befits an author. Are you >maybe working in Microsoft's interests? > Greg, I hate to descend to this muck slinging level, but you started it. In answer to your question: No, and actually if you ever read Chapter 10 in my book which obviously you haven't, you would know I'm completely opposed to Microsoft. Publically. In fact, I made the statement in the Preface: "My goal is to see FreeBSD replace Windows, not coexist with it forever" In Chapter 10, on page 381, I liken Microsoft to the Dark Lord out of Tolkien's Lord of the Rings Also, on page 383 when discussing the Anti-Trust trial, I state that Microsoft committed a crime. Note that that trial is still pending - there is not a final finding of criminal activity at this time. That's pretty much going out on a limb, don't you think? Legally Microsoft could sue me to make a retraction. I'll say this: my book stays with me the rest of my life. Do you ever think I'll ever get a job at Microsoft? In contrast, is there anywhere in The Complete FreeBSD where YOU state that Microsoft is inferior and should be replaced, or that the company is criminal, or that it's like Sauron? Hmmm... maybe I should be giving YOU the "working in Microsoft's interests" Senator McCarthy loyalty pledge to sign. Now, do you want to keep slinging muck or can we get back to reasonable discussion? Greg, when Bruce Perens wrote his "stand together" document, he was making a big mistake; it's an egotistical kind of idea that "Hey, I'm so important that Microsoft is actually talking to ME" In reality, Greg Mundie, and Steve Ballmer and the rest of the major Microsoft executives, when they make speeches against Linux and Open Source, they are NOT addressing us, they are addressing all of the Windows administrators who are out there wondering "Gee, what's that Linux stuff all about, maybe I should check into it". Incidentally, this is the SAME market that MY book addresses. What is going on is that Microsoft knows that anyone who has really spent some time trying out FreeBSD, or Linux, or any other Open Source OS, well that administrator is a lost cause. They are never going to get him or her back into the fold. What they want to do is give the admins who have NEVER tried any Open Source some excuses to use to make themselves feel that it's an OK decision to NOT look into Linux or FreeBSD. In short, Microsoft knows that they STILL have 80% buyoff on what they are doing, and they want to keep the 80% from shrinking. They aren't dumb enough to think that they can actually compete directly with Open Source, and grab any of that 20% that is out of the boat. Instead, they just want to keep the 80% that are in the boat, in the boat! If every Open Source project in the world immediately relicensed under GPL, then Microsoft would just say that GPL is a passing fad, and dismiss the entire lot of us. It would make their job so much easier to fight a war against ONE enemy. By contrast, as more and more DIFFERENT groups adopt DIFFERENT licensing, and even stand independent of each other, all under the banner of Open Source, it's much harder to fight something like that. For example, you argue against GPL's intellectual property clause, well guess what, you can't turn right around and at the same time contradict yourself and say that BSD, which has no intellectual property problems, is bad too. But, then if you say BSD is good, and GPL is bad, well by golly guess what - BSD happens to use some GPL in there too (the complier) so what's that all about? It's like building a dam out of sticks. You can get a bunch of sticks and dump them in the river, and the dam will hold even if some sticks have weaknesses. But, if you go and throw a single, big tree into the river to create a dam, if there is ONE weakness in that tree, the dam will break. Bruce Perens and the rest of the signatories see the GPL as the big tree in the river, and they want the rest of us to buy off on this. Well, frankly I don't trust them to fight off Microsoft for us, and I think they have pretty big egos if they think that they can. Besides that, they have made it pretty clear that as long as we subscribe to the BSD license, we are pretty much on our own in a fight with Microsoft. They don't want to come to us, they want us to come to them and the GPL. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 0:53:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80C137B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 00:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id DF2DE6ACBC; Mon, 21 May 2001 17:23:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:23:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010521172345.A30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20010521103857.H30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:32:41AM -0700 Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Monday, 21 May 2001 at 0:32:41 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey >> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:09 PM >> To: Ted Mittelstaedt >> Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >> Together" >> >> >> [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] >> >> On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 23:12:53 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >>> On Friday, May 18, 2001 7:17 PM, Brian Raynes wrote: >>>> >>>> And why would programmers on the GPL side fear the BSD license? Unless >>>> I've completely missed something, they could quite easily make use of >>>> all the BSD code they like in GPL software. The idea that nothing in >>>> the original is lost if someone uses it elsewhere still applies, for >>>> both licenses. >>> >>> Because, IF your desired goal of GPL is to "virally infect" all >>> software to force it to be open, then you would rightly fear BSD >>> because it's an alternative. >> >> What does this have to do with reality? Again, it sounds like FUD. >> > > Greg, your just throwing out rediculous statements like this to > create your own FUD and to be rediculous. Let me refer you to the > following URL: > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html *sigh* > This is the point that I made earlier, it's the point that the GNU > project makes in it's own writings. How many people need to sit > here and bash this idea into your head until you get it? None. I've had enough of this thread. I just plain disagree with you, OK? The GPL has weaknesses, agreed, but so has the BSD license. I refuse to look on people who prefer the GPL as being evil to the core. > If my bitching about it will make Bruce include BSD people next > time, then I will have done far more to unite the Open Source > community than anything that it appears that anyone else has done so > far. Your bitching is more likely to alienate BSD in the free software community. I can't see anything good that it does. You're beginning to sound like Brett Glass. >> Let me give a counterexample. This polarization is not to our >> advantage. It's not to the GPL community's advantage either. > > Um, well if that is the case then why didn't Bruce include us? You still don't know? I think I've told you three times. Do me a favour, will you? Point us to a photo of you so we can be sure you're not Brett Glass in disguise. >> About the only group who could benefit by increased polarization in >> the free software community is Microsoft. > > Actually, they would benefit more by us being lumped together with > Linux. > > If your engaged in a massive PR campaign against a competitor, > like Microsoft is with GPL, then it is in your interest if you are > successfully able to propagandize the market that your competitor is > just one drop in an ocean of competitors. In other words "there are the Linux crowd, there are the *BSDs, who don't even talk to each other". My case stands. >> I note a surprising Microsoft-centricity in your messages, >> including typical format breakage and a lack of trimming which ill >> befits an author. Are you maybe working in Microsoft's interests? > > Greg, I hate to descend to this muck slinging level, but you started > it. Well, no, I just pointed out a parallel to your argumentation. I never said, nor do I believe, that you're in the pay of Microsoft, but people in the GPL camp might do, and I'd consider their arguments no weaker than what you've presented in this thread. > In contrast, is there anywhere in The Complete FreeBSD where YOU > state that Microsoft is inferior and should be replaced, or that the > company is criminal, or that it's like Sauron? No. I consider this a feature, not a bug. A lot of us were turned off by the vehement anti-Microsoft attitude in your book. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not in favour of Microsoft. Catch me in private for confirmation of that. But it has no place in my book, and putting it there would turn off a number of people off FreeBSD. > Greg, when Bruce Perens wrote his "stand together" document, he > was making a big mistake; it's an egotistical kind of idea that "Hey, > I'm so important that Microsoft is actually talking to ME" > > In reality, Greg Mundie, and Steve Ballmer and the rest of the major > Microsoft executives, when they make speeches against Linux and Open > Source, they are NOT addressing us, they are addressing all of the > Windows administrators who are out there wondering "Gee, what's that > Linux stuff all about, maybe I should check into it". Incidentally, > this is the SAME market that MY book addresses. What is going on is > that Microsoft knows that anyone who has really spent some time > trying out FreeBSD, or Linux, or any other Open Source OS, well that > administrator is a lost cause. They are never going to get him or > her back into the fold. Now there I can agree with you. > By contrast, > > as more and more DIFFERENT groups adopt DIFFERENT licensing, and even > stand independent of each other, all under the banner of Open > Source, it's much harder to fight something like that. Fractionally. The terms "open source" and "free software" both embrace GPL, BSDL and a whole lot of others. I don't think the target audience would notice the difference. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 1:31:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from web13602.mail.yahoo.com (web13602.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 390B137B43C for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 01:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bzdik@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <20010521083145.44600.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.16.193.228] by web13602.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 21 May 2001 01:31:45 PDT Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:31:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Bzdik BSD Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" To: Greg Lehey , Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20010521172345.A30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG wow, greg you are that low...instead of arguing your case and substantiating your arguments you drift into personal accusations and borderline name calling...it's so easy to do "sigh".."a lot of us were put off.." instead of proving your points. was that "us" a Royal thingy out of Socialist bushes? what do you think you are? an authority? wrong camp... there are no such animals here a lot of us are not going to buy the Powerpack with your book good for 6 releases back that you never cared to update - the errata are not up-to-date either. and this is not gonna be good for the "cause" of yours. this is just a pure FUD vomite coming out of your jealousy to his book. Annelise's looks very promising too, which combined with Ted's makes yours redundant even if you ever manage to catch up with time... how's that? argue the case not the advocate, the jury is not as stupid and easy to manipulate as you were imagining. it's a very interesting and important discussion, yet you are trying to shut up by mud-slinging instead of clarifying and proving the points, sigh-meister --- Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 21 May 2001 at 0:32:41 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey > >> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:09 PM > >> To: Ted Mittelstaedt > >> Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >> Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand > >> Together" > >> > >> > >> [Format recovered--see > http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] > >> > >> On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 23:12:53 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >>> On Friday, May 18, 2001 7:17 PM, Brian Raynes wrote: > >>>> > >>>> And why would programmers on the GPL side fear the BSD license? > Unless > >>>> I've completely missed something, they could quite easily make > use of > >>>> all the BSD code they like in GPL software. The idea that > nothing in > >>>> the original is lost if someone uses it elsewhere still applies, > for > >>>> both licenses. > >>> > >>> Because, IF your desired goal of GPL is to "virally infect" all > >>> software to force it to be open, then you would rightly fear BSD > >>> because it's an alternative. > >> > >> What does this have to do with reality? Again, it sounds like > FUD. > >> > > > > Greg, your just throwing out rediculous statements like this to > > create your own FUD and to be rediculous. Let me refer you to the > > following URL: > > > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html > > *sigh* > > > This is the point that I made earlier, it's the point that the GNU > > project makes in it's own writings. How many people need to sit > > here and bash this idea into your head until you get it? > > None. I've had enough of this thread. I just plain disagree with > you, OK? The GPL has weaknesses, agreed, but so has the BSD license. > I refuse to look on people who prefer the GPL as being evil to the > core. > > > If my bitching about it will make Bruce include BSD people next > > time, then I will have done far more to unite the Open Source > > community than anything that it appears that anyone else has done > so > > far. > > Your bitching is more likely to alienate BSD in the free software > community. I can't see anything good that it does. You're beginning > to sound like Brett Glass. > > >> Let me give a counterexample. This polarization is not to our > >> advantage. It's not to the GPL community's advantage either. > > > > Um, well if that is the case then why didn't Bruce include us? > > You still don't know? I think I've told you three times. > > Do me a favour, will you? Point us to a photo of you so we can be > sure you're not Brett Glass in disguise. > > >> About the only group who could benefit by increased polarization > in > >> the free software community is Microsoft. > > > > Actually, they would benefit more by us being lumped together with > > Linux. > > > > If your engaged in a massive PR campaign against a competitor, > > like Microsoft is with GPL, then it is in your interest if you are > > successfully able to propagandize the market that your competitor > is > > just one drop in an ocean of competitors. > > In other words "there are the Linux crowd, there are the *BSDs, who > don't even talk to each other". My case stands. > > >> I note a surprising Microsoft-centricity in your messages, > >> including typical format breakage and a lack of trimming which ill > >> befits an author. Are you maybe working in Microsoft's interests? > > > > Greg, I hate to descend to this muck slinging level, but you > started > > it. > > Well, no, I just pointed out a parallel to your argumentation. I > never said, nor do I believe, that you're in the pay of Microsoft, > but > people in the GPL camp might do, and I'd consider their arguments no > weaker than what you've presented in this thread. > > > In contrast, is there anywhere in The Complete FreeBSD where YOU > > state that Microsoft is inferior and should be replaced, or that > the > > company is criminal, or that it's like Sauron? > > No. I consider this a feature, not a bug. A lot of us were turned > off by the vehement anti-Microsoft attitude in your book. Don't get > me wrong, I'm certainly not in favour of Microsoft. Catch me in > private for confirmation of that. But it has no place in my book, > and > putting it there would turn off a number of people off FreeBSD. > > > Greg, when Bruce Perens wrote his "stand together" document, he > > was making a big mistake; it's an egotistical kind of idea that > "Hey, > > I'm so important that Microsoft is actually talking to ME" > > > > In reality, Greg Mundie, and Steve Ballmer and the rest of the > major > > Microsoft executives, when they make speeches against Linux and > Open > > Source, they are NOT addressing us, they are addressing all of the > > Windows administrators who are out there wondering "Gee, what's > that > > Linux stuff all about, maybe I should check into it". > Incidentally, > > this is the SAME market that MY book addresses. What is going on > is > > that Microsoft knows that anyone who has really spent some time > > trying out FreeBSD, or Linux, or any other Open Source OS, well > that > > administrator is a lost cause. They are never going to get him or > > her back into the fold. > > Now there I can agree with you. > > > By contrast, > > > > as more and more DIFFERENT groups adopt DIFFERENT licensing, and > even > > stand independent of each other, all under the banner of Open > > Source, it's much harder to fight something like that. > > Fractionally. The terms "open source" and "free software" both > embrace GPL, BSDL and a whole lot of others. I don't think the > target audience would notice the difference. > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 1:50:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA40837B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 01:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4L8ntk67460; Mon, 21 May 2001 01:49:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Brian Raynes" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 01:49:55 -0700 Message-ID: <001901c0e1d3$020b06c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010521172345.A30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Greg Lehey [mailto:grog@lemis.com] >Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 12:54 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > > >None. I've had enough of this thread. I just plain disagree with >you, OK? The GPL has weaknesses, agreed, but so has the BSD license. >I refuse to look on people who prefer the GPL as being evil to the >core. > Greg, knock it off, did I ever say that GPL is evil? I made it clear earlier that I can take the GPL, my problem is with the group that is surrounding it and what they are doing. I'm merely restating what GNU has already stated on their website. They have stated that they want GPL used in preference to any other license including LGPL, and that they want their stuff to be so functional and featureful that everybody will use it. Since their stuff carries the GPL that means by extraction that they want everything GPL. >> >> Um, well if that is the case then why didn't Bruce include us? > >You still don't know? I think I've told you three times. > You haven't told me or anyone the reason why once during this entire thread. More importantly, _Bruce_ hasn't posted the reason why anywhere on his site. The only thing I've seen is a link to a paragraph from him that is essentially saying that he would expect US to join with THEM. That's pretty much an assumption that there IS an US and a THEM, don't you think? >Do me a favour, will you? Point us to a photo of you so we can be >sure you're not Brett Glass in disguise. > That one's pretty funny, actually. :-) > >In other words "there are the Linux crowd, there are the *BSDs, who >don't even talk to each other". except that they happen to use a bunch of GPL software and include a Linuxulator in their product - no, that doesen't hold either. > My case stands. > If you so positive that GPL/BSD/whatever else unity is so necessary to beat Microsoft, then instead of me wasting my breath outlining why it's not, why don't you explain why it is? As a matter of fact, so far NO ONE has explained why unity is so necessary for this campaign - everyone has just seemed to assume that it is, without question. Well, that's pretty dumb, if your fighting a war, why waste resources supporting something (unity) that has no proven value as either a weapon or a defence? > >No. I consider this a feature, not a bug. A lot of us were turned >off by the vehement anti-Microsoft attitude in your book. Don't get Yes, I know and one of the results of that was the creation of Chapter 10 and the transferring of all advocacy in the book into that Chapter, I think you would find the current version pretty neutral in all other chapters. Certainly Poul Hennings did, as he was pretty mad about the bias first time round, but he liked the revised version that went to press. >me wrong, I'm certainly not in favour of Microsoft. Catch me in >private for confirmation of that. But it has no place in my book, and >putting it there would turn off a number of people off FreeBSD. > And turn on others. There's two sides to any coin. In any case, as I explain, it's impossible to fully understand the commitment of BSD without understanding the anti-Microsoft thread. Besides that, Microsoft has no problem being vehemently anti-Open Source and I don't see that anyone using Microsoft software has stopped using it because of _that_. I considered the argument that being anti-anyone would turn off someone, and rejected it because there's too much evidence that it makes absolutely no difference. I went to the trouble of PC'ing the book because mostly the core people that looked at it wanted that, but I still think that your all wrong about the bias thing and making a big stink over nothing. Certainly, some of the reviewers were totally the opposite, and LIKED the Advocacy chapter. So, who really knows either way? > >> By contrast, >> >> as more and more DIFFERENT groups adopt DIFFERENT licensing, and even >> stand independent of each other, all under the banner of Open >> Source, it's much harder to fight something like that. > >Fractionally. The terms "open source" and "free software" both >embrace GPL, BSDL and a whole lot of others. Ahhh - you would think that, wouldn't you. I do, and I think most BSD people do. Certainly, when BSD people talk about Open Source, that is what they are saying. But, I'm saying that my observation is that when the "leaders of the GPL" start talking about Open Source, they are talking about GPL _only_. > I don't think the >target audience would notice the difference. > Well, that's our problem. We are the ones that have to make the justification of why the BSD license and way of doing things is better than GPL. But, I also note that it's interesting that Microsoft has chosen in the latest speech to go after the GPL explicitly. Who knows if they will carry forward this campaign or if they are still feeling the waters for a strategy of attack. But, I predict that if they DO commence attacking Linux using this vector, that very soon the target audience WILL be made aware, by Microsoft, of the difference between GPL and BSDL and the others. I also think that after having studying how Microsoft has used FUD in the past, that the anti-GPL attack has many positives for it. The number one is that it's a way of attacking Linux without really coming out and saying that your attacking Linux. It also protects your Apple flank (and your own) from charges of hypocrisy, and also Microsoft has accepted that Open Source isn't going away, and would rather coexist with BSD than GPL. Just keep this in mind - by even publically acknowledging (as Ballmer did in January) that Linux is a competitor, in fact the number one competitor, Microsoft has instantly given a veneer of legitimacy to Open Source among the Windows diehards. This certaily has cost them significant sales short term, and they fought against doing this for at least 3 years. You cannot overestimate the importance of this - it shows that they now have proof that Linux has so damaged their sales that the sales damage caused by legitimizing them was outweighed by the importance of being able to attack Linux directly. The war has started. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 2: 0:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A62537B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 02:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA56940 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 02:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:00:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Introductory Book on FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am just about finished with a first draft of this book, tentatively entitled FreeBSD: A Professional Operating System for Your PC. Then with a round of revisions, it should be ready to go to press. The Introduction and first 12 chapters are on my anon ftp site in pdf format (i.e., readable with Acrobat Reader). ftp andrsn.stanford.edu cd /pub/introbook I've asked for comments on freebsd-newbies (for the new user point of view) and from freebsd-doc. I would be grateful for any general comments and especially "technical review" comments, so if there are any chapters of interest do download them. It's organized as follows: Introduction: The book as a whole Chapter 1: FreeBSD and UNIX Chapters 2-4: Installing. Getting ready to install (including getting info from Windows on hardware, as it's Windows I assume most readers will be running); installing; post-install configuration. Lots of screen shots of the installation process. Chapters 5-8: These chapters are introductory hands-on finding out about UNIX and FreeBSD--some of the stuff covered in my newuser tutorial in greater detail; looking around, getting around, finding out what's happening; also installing and setting up the bash shell, and editing files (ee, pico, but mainly vi). Chapters 9-11: Packages, ports, and software (run-down on applications from the various categories). An earlier draft of the latter has been on my ftp site for a while, but has been removed. The highlighted applications are those of interest to new users rather than professionals running major installations, but some of these are mentioned also. Including figlet. Chapters 12-15: What I consider the "big four" that just about everyone wants to get working--connecting to the Internet (and using FreeBSD as a gateway), sound, X-Window, and printing. Chapters 16-17: Building a kernel and upgrading with cvsup (ports and the system). Chapters 18-21: Other resources; other tasks (getting out of trouble); miscellaneous. Appendix: Hardware Although the assumption is that most readers are using Windows, there are some notes for linux users trying FreeBSD. If anyone wants it in a different format I'll try to figure out what I can do. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 2: 5:26 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A9837B42C for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 02:05:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4L95Gk67924; Mon, 21 May 2001 02:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Bzdik BSD" , "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Brian Raynes" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 02:05:16 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01c0e1d5$26ee29c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <20010521083145.44600.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >-----Original Message----- >From: Bzdik BSD [mailto:bzdik@yahoo.com] >Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:32 AM >To: Greg Lehey; Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >wow, greg you are that low...instead of arguing your case and >substantiating your arguments you drift into personal accusations and >borderline name calling...it's so easy to do "sigh".."a lot of us were >put off.." instead of proving your points. was that "us" a Royal thingy >out of Socialist bushes? >what do you think you are? an authority? wrong camp... there are no >such animals here > >a lot of us are not going to buy the Powerpack with your book good for >6 releases back that you never cared to update - the errata are not >up-to-date either. and this is not gonna be good for the "cause" of >yours. this is just a pure FUD vomite coming out of your jealousy to >his book. Annelise's looks very promising too, which combined with >Ted's makes yours redundant even if you ever manage to catch up with >time... how's that? > Much as I appreciate the solidarity I would please beg all of you one thing - rate the books on the basis of the books, not on the basis of whether you think the author is a fuckhead. This is as true for me and Annelise as for Greg. Plenty of people think I'm a fuckhead too. > it's a very interesting and important >discussion, I am very glad that at least one person other than myself feels that way! It's my hope that this thread would spur more thought among the FreeBSD community as to how to actively deal with the media and the media's perception of BSD and Open Source. So far, the Linux camp is the only ones that have been engaged in plain old media manipulation, and even then what they have done has been fumbling first steps. (and they peed away a lot of the attention that the sky-high IPO's generated last year, which was even worse) The BSD camp has pretty much totally failed at doing this, which is probably the biggest reason that we wern't included in Bruce Peren's essay. If we don't take control and start manipulating the media, then others (Linux, Microsoft, etc.) are going to do it for us, and we probably won't like the result. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 2:47:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E5A37B440 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 02:47:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4L9lGR70245 ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:47:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id LAA97762 ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:47:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:47:40 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Greg Lehey Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010521114737.C96248@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Greg Lehey , Ted Mittelstaedt , Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010521103857.H30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010521172345.A30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010521172345.A30256@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Mon, May 21, 2001 at 05:23:45PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey said on May 21, 2001 at 17:23:45: > >> Let me give a counterexample. This polarization is not to our > >> advantage. It's not to the GPL community's advantage either. > > > > Um, well if that is the case then why didn't Bruce include us? > > You still don't know? I think I've told you three times. > > Do me a favour, will you? Point us to a photo of you so we can be > sure you're not Brett Glass in disguise. He isn't: Brett's linebreaks occur at the proper places :) Ted's view is not at all uncommon in the BSD world, it seems to me Greg is the exceptional one -- eg see Wes Peters' posting on daily daemonnews, http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1918 My take on this is: the "free software community" (aka open source community, aka linux community because most linux developers do have that mindset) wants to change the world. The BSD community wants to write good software but is not interested in changing the world. So there's a fundamental difference. This is the context of my earlier remarks on "activism" on issues like DeCSS -- such activism simply does not exist in the BSD world. Ted's entire response to my mail was to justify in detail why there's no point in doing anything. The only worry BSD people ever have is, why aren't people using their system when it's better than linux? Well, it's better, but linux has a different worldview and many people are attracted by that. Another example: Dan Bernstein, the man who (apart from writing qmail, djbdns, etc) sued the US government for the right to post crypto code on the net for educational purposes. His favourite operating system is OpenBSD; he's not known to be a big linux fan. But many in the linux world would consider him part of the "linux community" (which is generally a misnomer for the free software community), because of the things he's done and the software he's written. I don' t think anyone considers him part of the BSD community, least of all the BSD community itself. I don't have a problem with any of this. If the BSD people want to focus on improving their code, well, that indicates focus and commitment, and those are good things. BUT -- if the same BSD people then turn around and complain that Bruce Perens isn't asking them to sign his petition -- *that* I have a problem with. That's hypocrisy. That's wanting things both ways. I'm thinking of expanding these views into a longer article, but thought I'd see how people react... Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 6: 3:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F50F37B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8433B5D8D for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:03:17 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:03:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" From: markemmanuel To: FreeBSD advocacy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <001a01c0e1d5$26ee29c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoted from the Book of Ted Mittelstaedt Ch 6:7-13 on 5/21/01 4:05 AM: > So far, the > Linux camp is the only ones that have been engaged in plain old > media manipulation, and even then what they have done has been > fumbling first steps. (and they peed away a lot of the attention > that the sky-high IPO's generated last year, which was even worse) > The BSD camp has pretty much totally failed at doing this, > which is probably the biggest reason that we wern't included in > Bruce Peren's essay. Yeah, it's kinda nice like that. I think they have the media under their belt because so many companies have embraced it like IBM. The BSDs don't have large companies standing tall telling everyone how great BSD, how they're puttting it on their hardware, porting their software to it, and how it's the future of computing. The only company that comes to mind is Apple but as we've seen on the FreeBSD-Questions list, they're not very reputable among many users because they don't use a x86 chip in their boxes. What the BSDs need is a good ole advertising campaign. :) What it doesn't need are companies like Red Hat and VA Linux with common stock in the single digits. Heh... Heh... --markemmanuel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 6:37: 7 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52A637B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC815E91 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:37:02 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:37:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" From: markemmanuel To: FreeBSD advocacy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20010521114737.C96248@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoted from the Book of Rahul Siddharthan Ch 6:7-13 on 5/21/01 4:47 AM: > My take on this is: the "free software community" (aka open source > community, aka linux community because most linux developers do have > that mindset) wants to change the world. The BSD community wants to > write good software but is not interested in changing the world. So > there's a fundamental difference. Here's how I see the Linux community for the most part... "Talk much, do little." Here's how I see the BSD community... "Talk little, do much." I think we all want to change the world in some form but each community has different priorities. It feels like the Linux community, especially since it has inflated, tries to shove Linux down anyone and everyone's throat even though their product isn't polished. Mandrake released 8.0 a few weeks ago with a broken compiler they called a beta in a final release. The BSD community does their own thing and spreads their software through their circle of influence. > This is the context of my earlier remarks on "activism" on issues like > DeCSS -- such activism simply does not exist in the BSD world. Ted's > entire response to my mail was to justify in detail why there's no > point in doing anything. The only worry BSD people ever have is, why > aren't people using their system when it's better than linux? Well, > it's better, but linux has a different worldview and many people are > attracted by that. Yep. People like loud and annoying people in our society. Also, there aren't many things to be an activist with without gettting in trouble and people do their activism anonymously on the internet. (We are a society of weaklings). Many saw that activism in Linux. Is there a website that definitively says, "yes, FreeBSD is better than Debian Linux." I've seen so many sites telling me how Linux has superior SMP, superior networking, yadda yadda to FreeBSD and MS Windows. > Another example: Dan Bernstein, the man who (apart from writing qmail, > djbdns, etc) sued the US government for the right to post crypto code > on the net for educational purposes. His favourite operating system > is OpenBSD; he's not known to be a big linux fan. But many in the > linux world would consider him part of the "linux community" (which is > generally a misnomer for the free software community), because of the > things he's done and the software he's written. I don' t think anyone > considers him part of the BSD community, least of all the BSD > community itself. We're not keeping score are we? ;) Again, I believe it's because the BSD community seems to be focused on other things other than advocacy. Linux community loves to talk and brag about 'their people'. The BSD community has other priorities or perhaps lives outside of their favorite operating system, ;) > I don't have a problem with any of this. If the BSD people > want to focus on improving their code, well, that indicates focus and > commitment, and those are good things. I think Linus is very much like that with his Kernel code. From what I heard is Linus hates doing media spots but everyone continues to egg him on to do it. Most of the people that talk too much rarely work with the code. The people doing the advocacy are usually newbies like me that don't know much, people with no lives, or those with huge egos. I honestly want to focus on the code when my skills develop and less on advocacy. If the BSDs really want to media coverage, perhaps there can be a community effort to get media attention for BSD. I personally think it's important to form alliances like IBM to contribute and take code in order to grow FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. > > BUT -- if the same BSD people then turn around and complain that Bruce > Perens isn't asking them to sign his petition -- *that* I have a > problem with. That's hypocrisy. That's wanting things both ways. Yep, why complain when you can just write your own paper and invite everyone to join. > I'm thinking of expanding these views into a longer article, but > thought I'd see how people react... I would love to read an article expanding these views. :) markemmanuel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 7:22:11 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nwlynx.network-lynx.net (nwlynx.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7AA37B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 07:22:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Received: from Silver-Lynx.com (doze-1.network-lynx.net [63.122.185.106]) by nwlynx.network-lynx.net (8.11.1/8.9.3/Who.Cares) with ESMTP id f4LEJZK31580; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:19:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Don@Silver-Lynx.com) Message-ID: <3B0923F6.F75D574@Silver-Lynx.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:19:34 -0600 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Bzdik BSD , Greg Lehey , Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <001a01c0e1d5$26ee29c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Whew... hey guys, this is getting really nasty. Let's all just go back to writing code and books and let Micros**t die of their own idiocy and greed. -- Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects 2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 9:32: 3 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E78F37B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4LGUZk68808; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:30:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Rahul Siddharthan" , "Greg Lehey" Cc: "Brian Raynes" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:30:34 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0e213$5c706660$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <20010521114737.C96248@lpt.ens.fr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Rahul >Siddharthan >Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 2:48 AM >To: Greg Lehey >Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >Greg Lehey said on May 21, 2001 at 17:23:45: >> >> Let me give a counterexample. This polarization is not to our >> >> advantage. It's not to the GPL community's advantage either. >> > >> > Um, well if that is the case then why didn't Bruce include us? >> >> You still don't know? I think I've told you three times. >> >> Do me a favour, will you? Point us to a photo of you so we can be >> sure you're not Brett Glass in disguise. > > >He isn't: Brett's linebreaks occur at the proper places :) > >Ted's view is not at all uncommon in the BSD world, it seems to me >Greg is the exceptional one -- eg see Wes Peters' posting on daily >daemonnews, >http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1918 > >My take on this is: the "free software community" (aka open source >community, aka linux community because most linux developers do have >that mindset) wants to change the world. The BSD community wants to >write good software but is not interested in changing the world. So >there's a fundamental difference. > I think you are on to something, but I also think that the BSD world is _less_ cohesive than the Linux community. It's like that communities view is that if you go Linux you accept everything they are doing. The BSD people are more easy-going I think. >This is the context of my earlier remarks on "activism" on issues like >DeCSS -- such activism simply does not exist in the BSD world. Ted's >entire response to my mail was to justify in detail why there's no >point in doing anything. For me it's that issue only - it's more of a "choose your battles" thing, and I've not chosen DeCSS, I've chosen other things. (like the Microsoft business) But, I'd say that while it's overstating to say there's _no_ activism, I think your probably close to the mark that there is a lot less than among the GPL. >The only worry BSD people ever have is, why >aren't people using their system when it's better than linux? Well, >it's better, but linux has a different worldview and many people are >attracted by that. > >Another example: Dan Bernstein, the man who (apart from writing qmail, >djbdns, etc) sued the US government for the right to post crypto code >on the net for educational purposes. His favourite operating system >is OpenBSD; he's not known to be a big linux fan. But many in the >linux world would consider him part of the "linux community" (which is >generally a misnomer for the free software community), because of the >things he's done and the software he's written. I don' t think anyone >considers him part of the BSD community, least of all the BSD >community itself. > >I don't have a problem with any of this. If the BSD people >want to focus on improving their code, well, that indicates focus and >commitment, and those are good things. > >BUT -- if the same BSD people then turn around and complain that Bruce >Perens isn't asking them to sign his petition -- *that* I have a >problem with. That's hypocrisy. That's wanting things both ways. > No, that's not because I don't subscribe to the _world BSD view_ if such a thing exists. It might be hypocrisy for someone like _Greg_ to demand a place on Bruce's petition, because Greg seems opposed to that kind of activism, so that would be consistent for him. But, it's not hypocrisy for _me_ to be demanding it because I've been more activist. >I'm thinking of expanding these views into a longer article, but >thought I'd see how people react... > Just keep in mind that the BSD people like being tarred by the same brush even less than the Linux people do. Be careful and you should do fine. >Rahul > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 9:33:13 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A6F37B424 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4LGX1k68827; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Don Wilde" Cc: "Bzdik BSD" , "Greg Lehey" , "Brian Raynes" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:33:01 -0700 Message-ID: <000101c0e213$b3bf7960$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <3B0923F6.F75D574@Silver-Lynx.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Won't happen - remember the intelligence of a mob is the inversely porportional to it's size, and the Windows-using IT community of admins these days is very, very large. ;-) Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: Don Wilde [mailto:Don@Silver-Lynx.com] >Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:20 AM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Bzdik BSD; Greg Lehey; Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > >Whew... hey guys, this is getting really nasty. Let's all just go back >to writing code and books and let Micros**t die of their own idiocy and >greed. >-- >Don Wilde http://www.Silver-Lynx.com >Silver Lynx Embedded Microsystems Architects >2218 Southern Bl. Ste. 12 Rio Rancho, NM 87124 >505-891-4175 FAX 891-4185 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 10:37:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4055137B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA5280; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:42:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3B095240.F7873FAD@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:37:04 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <000101c0e0ff$44725600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Well, I remember paging through that in the bookstore once, and while I > admit I didn't look through all volumes (they wern't all there) what I > remember of it was mainly reprints of the system manual pages. Not > much to recommend purchase as the price was rather high. That's what 75% of their X11 series was, and it sold very well. I think the difference is that the X11 series was general to all unices, while the 4.4BSD Lite was specific to a single OS. ORA publishes a lot of Linux books because there is a big market demand for them. But there isn't a big market demand for FreeBSD books. Unfortunate, but true. This seems to be changing. The high Linux demand has fallen along with the dot.coms, and the BSDs are getting more attention. Patience is what's needed. Nobody in the publishing world knew what Linux was until it reached a certain threshold, then *blam*! Every computer publisher had their own line of Linux books. Eventually BSD will reach that threshold. It won't be as dramatic, since we won't have the benefit of the dot.com tide, but it will happen. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 10:47:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C3E37B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:47:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA5A17; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:53:02 -0700 Message-ID: <3B09549D.DC77D7CE@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:47:09 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bzdik BSD Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <20010521083145.44600.qmail@web13602.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bzdik BSD wrote: > > wow, greg you are that low...instead of arguing your case and > substantiating your arguments you drift into personal accusations and > borderline name calling... Go check the history of the thread. Greg DID argue his case and he DID substantiate his arguments. In short, the unstoppable force met the immovable object. Something had to give, and unfortunately it was Greg's patience. In my opinion he should have just ignored the taunts. Oh well... David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 11:35:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733A337B43E for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:35:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA7A6; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:41:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3B095FFA.69C380F4@acuson.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:35:38 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Seth Kramer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <000001c0dfb7$949e85c0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <002501c0e000$57523100$0100000a@home.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Seth Kramer wrote: > > Humor a newbie. What exactly is the difference between GPL and Open > Source? Further how is the licensing for BSD different from Linux distros, > or BSD different from Linux for that matter? I'm extremely biased on this matter, so I'm taking extra effort to be somewhat objective. Although the advocates will go round and round over the differences between "Free Software" and "Open Source Software", they both refer to the same identical concept. All Free Software licenses are *also* Open Source licenses, and vice versa(*). Including the GPL. All licenses have conditions and restrictions on use. The GPL is no exception. Its main conditions require all derivative works also be licensed under the GPL. The Linux kernel is released under the GPL. However, since the GPL would require any software making normal system kernel calls to also be licensed under the GPL, Linus Torvalds included an exception. The BSD license has few restrictions. Basically the only conditions are that the copyright notice and warranty disclaimer follow the software. Both FreeBSD and the Linux distributions use a variety of licenses. The "core" of FreeBSD is under the BSD license, and the "core" of Linux is under the GPL or LGPL. But once you wander outside of the core OS, there is a greater mix of licenses. There is some GPL stuff in the FreeBSD userland, and some BSD licensed stuff in the Linux userland. There is a certain amount of antagonism between the GPL and BSD advocates. Much of it centers on philosophical matters irrelevant to the average developer or user. But to give one small example, I received an unsolicited message from an FSF member calling me a "fool" because I used the BSD license, and that surely someone would come along and "steal" me software :-) As a user, it doesn't matter what Open Source license the software you use is under. You have complete permission to use, copy, give away or sell it. If you are a developer, then you must pay closer attention to the licensing. You cannot use GPL source code in your BSD licensed project, but you can do the reverse. It all depends on your goals and motives. If you want every instance and derivation of your software to be Open Source, then use the GPL. If you want everyone to be able to use it without restriction, then use the BSD license. (*) The APSL was recently approved as an Open Source license, but the FSF has not, and probably will not approve it. So it is not "officially" Free Software according to the FSF. However, it meets their written definition of Free Software, so I consider it as such. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 14:59: 1 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CC5037B43C; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA71C9; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:12:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3B02EBCA.B29A2C4F@acuson.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:06:18 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ExBSD References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E4F6.10DC397D@mindspring.com> <3B01767A.1C24A9D7@acuson.com> <3B023FFC.A1EC1F0C@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm getting too worked sup, so I'm going to summarize my "I'm leaving" feelings... a) Guilty as charged. I haven't using Windows in over two years. Maybe the current Windows XP is the target we should aim FreeBSD at. I don't know since I've never seen it. But I do know that Windows 95, Windows 98 and Windows NT all sucked. I do not want FreeBSD to suck. b) Graphical installs. I done graphical installs for OS/2, Windows 95, Redhat, Corel, Mandrake, Caldera and SuSE. I have done non-graphical installs for DOS, DRDOS, GeoWorks, Debian, Slackware and FreeBSD. The two easiest OS installations I have ever done were Slackware and FreeBSD. You are never going to get a graphical FreeBSD install as easy to use as the OEM's "recovery disk" until you get the cooperation of the OEM. And the people building their own boxes will still be screwed (just like they're already screwed trying to install Windows on their homebuilds). If the user is going to be intimidated by a text-based installer, then maybe, just maybe, FreeBSD is not for them. c) Changing FreeBSD. I may have problems with the certain things in the current implementation of FreeBSD, but I have no problems with the direction in which I see it going. You will NEVER be able to please everyone. But feel free to fork off another version. That's what Mac OS X did. That's what Corel and Storm did with Debian. That's what Mandrake did with Redhat. d) I once was part of a tiny group exploring the possibility of forking off a Newbie-BSD OS. We spent a lot of time arguing over default desktops, graphical installers, etc. But the project faded away and died as we realized that what was really needed was more drivers, better drivers and better hardware detection. I never could get Corel LinuxOS to install on my system. The problem was that it kept trying to probe my video card. But the XFree86 documentation says never to probe my video card. I'm sure that Corel could have qualified as one of my easiest installations. Unfortunately, it made the wrong decision between ease of use and correctness. I hear Corel LinuxOS is all but gone now. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 14:59: 5 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3171437B449 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:59:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA6B97; Wed, 16 May 2001 17:43:21 -0700 Message-ID: <3B031D4A.A4CF4BB1@acuson.com> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 17:37:30 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: wisesage98@yahoo.com Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: I'm leaving References: <20010517002014.2472.qmail@web9505.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG JTSage wrote: > IMHO, a GUI install would be a pretty bad idea, because the possibilty of it > not "just work"ing is too great. But an installer that could set up a GUI that > would "just work", even with only a 90% success rate, now THAT would be great! Call me a dinosaur, obsolete curmudgeon, or just an old fart, I don't care. But I would much rather have a text installer that works 100% of the time than be one of those 10% that the GUI install fails on. > > Yes. Most people fall into the "I don't give a damn how it works, > > just do what I wanted" camp. Let me translate that into how I read it: "I don't give a damn how the much the car leaks oil or belches out smoke or offends the neighbors with its stench, just get me to work in the morning." I don't want an OS that just works. I can get that with Windows. I want an OS that works well. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 14:59: 9 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013DD37B43C for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:59:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA69D2; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:52:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0470FA.C16F5F06@acuson.com> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:46:50 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anders Nordby Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <20010517161636.A28350@totem.fix.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Anders Nordby wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm a little dissatisfied with the fact that it seems Bruce Perens > doesn't seem to want to include any BSD persons on a list of "free > software leaders". Is he really that much of a zealot, and does he lack > history knowledge? Or is it just me that got this all wrong? Did he > actually ask any BSD persons? Bruce is a very big GPL person, so much so that he quit the OSI because they promoted openness instead of freedom. However, the group of people he included is well representative of the Open Source community. Richard Stallman and Miguel de Icaza are balanced by Larry Wall and Guido Van Rossum. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 14:59:17 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5E137B42C for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAAE5E; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:50:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3B055F97.CEBDC854@acuson.com> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:44:55 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <002101c0df56$e6c62260$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Basically, what has happened is that Bruce and his friends > (the signatories on the list of that article are a who's > who of them) have literally made millions of dollars out of > in effect convincing a bunch of developers to GPL their > code, then those Open Source people have set themselves up > in the only point in the GPL code distributon scheme (the > nexus points) where it's possible to make a lot of money. Many of those signatories most assuredly are *not* GPL fanatics. Tim O'Reilly surely isn't. He's one of the very few who will call RMS out to a debate in a public forum. Larry Wall surely isn't. He came up with the Artistic License and his dual licensing scheme so that Perl could be accepted as "Free" by the GNU crowd while at the same time gutting every requirement in the GPL. And Guido von Rossum isn't. Just last month he took RMS to task for continually changing the definition of GPL-compatibility, and said that compatibility with the GPL would no longer be a goal for the Python license. If this list consisted solely of Linux distributors and GNU board members, I would agree with you. But it appears that Bruce actually did try to get a broad slice of the Open Source community. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 16: 1: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailin10.bigpond.com (juicer35.bigpond.com [139.134.6.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2443E37B42C; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:00:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) Received: from oracle ([139.134.4.56]) by mailin10.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GDPK6B00.CPJ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:06:11 +1000 Received: from 144.137.128.187 ([144.137.128.187]) by mail3.bigpond.com (Claudes-Provisional-MailRouter V2.9c 5/5337693); 22 May 2001 09:00:33 Message-ID: <014301c0e249$debd93f0$0300a8c0@oracle> From: "Doug Young" To: "David Johnson" , Cc: References: <002b01c0db54$e0febaa0$5599ca3f@disappointment> <20010513171444.E26123@welearn.com.au> <00f401c0db7e$ff3ca2a0$fe00a8c0@kat.lan> <20010513122623.I97034@lpt.ens.fr> <20010513033434.A54250@xor.obsecurity.org> <3B001679.3172B050@acuson.com> <3B00E <3B02EBCA.B29A2C4F@acuson.com> Subject: Re: ExBSD Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:00:40 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG From my point of view (having done a few hundred FreeBSD installs) there isn't much to pick from between Windows & FreeBSD installation. The difficulty comes trying to configure X / sound / printers / ppp / etc. There are two factors here ... firstly, the original use of unix appears to have been as a research / development tool rather than as a mass market desktop / gameplaying platform. Developers & other assorted geeks will accept horribly user hostile things like vi, lpr, X, ppp, etc, that certainly couldn't be described as "user friendly" to non-experienced users. I'm not suggesting FreeBSD can be (or should be) suitable for everyone ... there are even countless "levels of enlightenment" within the faithful. I'm quite impressed by its performance for webservers etc, but I couldn't imagine using FreeBSD in its current form as a workstation. For those of us wanting relatively basic functionality, X is a useless poxridden waste of space, vi is an exercise in needless complexity, lpr is an extremely messy abortion etc etc. Secondly, the traditional documentation was written by extremely experienced users who had long forgotten to mention the countless minor but critical points essential to someone less knowledgeable. Man pages may have relevance to the former but are utterly useless to the latter. Thankfully things have improved recently, at least the handbook has & various other books / resource sites have appeared to help fill the gap .... however man pages in general are still written in martian / venusian / whatever & following the time honored tradition of emulating "books with blank pages apart from chapter headings". FWIW, my thoughts are that "task based" documentation would help both newbies & "real world" sysadmins. People who are unfamiliar with the terminology / history / ethos / culture / blah blah don't always have the time / inclination / ability to devote days in a search for information needed to get something working "NOW". eg I wrote the Pedantic FreeBSD for people without the knowledge or time to read several books before starting an installation. The typical user here has little need to know more than how to boot, how to shutdown, & how to "adduser / rmuser", so why subject them to reading heaps of stuff that will go way over their head anyway ?? I think this is probably the main reason that "user-freindly" resource sites have proliferated ... they provide a means for users to do the task at hand without needing to become an instant expert. It may be that the present arrangement is the best overall .... the experts have their preferred docs format in the man pages & everyone else has the handbook / user-friendly resource sites. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Johnson" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 7:06 AM Subject: ExBSD > I'm getting too worked sup, so I'm going to summarize my "I'm leaving" > feelings... > > a) Guilty as charged. I haven't using Windows in over two years. Maybe > the current Windows XP is the target we should aim FreeBSD at. I don't > know since I've never seen it. But I do know that Windows 95, Windows 98 > and Windows NT all sucked. I do not want FreeBSD to suck. > > b) Graphical installs. I done graphical installs for OS/2, Windows 95, > Redhat, Corel, Mandrake, Caldera and SuSE. I have done non-graphical > installs for DOS, DRDOS, GeoWorks, Debian, Slackware and FreeBSD. The > two easiest OS installations I have ever done were Slackware and > FreeBSD. > > You are never going to get a graphical FreeBSD install as easy to use as > the OEM's "recovery disk" until you get the cooperation of the OEM. And > the people building their own boxes will still be screwed (just like > they're already screwed trying to install Windows on their homebuilds). > > If the user is going to be intimidated by a text-based installer, then > maybe, just maybe, FreeBSD is not for them. > > c) Changing FreeBSD. I may have problems with the certain things in the > current implementation of FreeBSD, but I have no problems with the > direction in which I see it going. You will NEVER be able to please > everyone. But feel free to fork off another version. That's what Mac OS > X did. That's what Corel and Storm did with Debian. That's what Mandrake > did with Redhat. > > d) I once was part of a tiny group exploring the possibility of forking > off a Newbie-BSD OS. We spent a lot of time arguing over default > desktops, graphical installers, etc. But the project faded away and died > as we realized that what was really needed was more drivers, better > drivers and better hardware detection. > > I never could get Corel LinuxOS to install on my system. The problem was > that it kept trying to probe my video card. But the XFree86 > documentation says never to probe my video card. I'm sure that Corel > could have qualified as one of my easiest installations. Unfortunately, > it made the wrong decision between ease of use and correctness. I hear > Corel LinuxOS is all but gone now. > > David > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 19:42:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D8437B424; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA04981; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:42:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAkma4Nj; Mon May 21 19:42:17 2001 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA19765; Mon, 21 May 2001 19:45:02 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <200105220245.TAA19765@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Exchange substitute To: reed@reedmedia.net (Jeremy C. Reed) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:45:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar (Fernando P . Schapachnik), advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG (please don't continue on) In-Reply-To: from "Jeremy C. Reed" at May 18, 2001 12:32:59 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Sendmail + Cyrus IMAP from ports will do the job. > > This will do the shared/group calendaring? It will transport Microsoft TNEF files as MIME attachments, which lets you calendar between OutLook users. > > Are you using any esorteric features of Excahnge that we > > should know about? You may also need to add OpenLDAP 2.0 > > or other software, if you are. > > I also am curious about this. On Tuesday, I gave a presentation about BSD, > open source, and Linux; and some of the audience asked me about > alternatives for MS Exchange/Outlook -- in particular they were interested > in providing shared calendars. (I guess this is called "groupware".) > I have only heard about evolution, so it was my only answer. See: http://www.imc.org/pdi/pdiprodslist.html You are looking for the "vCalendar Products" table. > Fernando, the "unix-based MS Exchange substitute" may really involve two > parts: the server and the clients that work with it. You may want to see > if the clients you are using support iCalendar or Open Mail. OutLook supports RFC 2447 (iMIP) for interoperability, I think. You may also want to check out "Meeting Maker" from OnTrack; it has Mac and UNIX clients, and the server generally runs on UNIX boxes. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 21 21:48:40 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp2.registeredsite.com (mailtmp2.registeredsite.com [216.247.127.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8954337B422 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 21:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail4.registeredsite.com (mail4.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.13]) by mailtmp2.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4M4mXC12214 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 00:48:34 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com ([216.247.134.44]) by mail4.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4M4mZl08454 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 00:48:36 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [65.14.36.167] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AFA1A0E0114; Tue, 22 May 2001 00:48:33 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010522002724.017eab68@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 00:39:02 -0400 To: FreeBSD Advocacy From: Technical Information Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" In-Reply-To: References: <20010521114737.C96248@lpt.ens.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG One of the biggest mistakes that anyone can make in this industry is to assume that technical superiority is enough to assure the success of a product. How many technologies have we seen fall by the wayside in the wake of a less worthy but well-advertised competition? The Amiga, OS/2 Warp, beta...ultimately people are more concerned with compatibility and ease of use than lofty technical issues. Plus, to read the stories of Linux mythos in the media, you'd think Linus was some starving Finnish child who carved x86 operating system source code into wood and then rallied millions of programmers around the world to pursue his altruistic cause. How can you not help but love the David who would challenge Microsoft's Goliath with no concern for personal gain? Ya gotta admit, those Linux folks do know how to spin a good yarn... --Chip Morton At 09:37 AM 5/21/2001, you wrote: >Here's how I see the Linux community for the most part... "Talk much, do >little." > >Here's how I see the BSD community... "Talk little, do much." > >I think we all want to change the world in some form but each community has >different priorities. It feels like the Linux community, especially since >it has inflated, tries to shove Linux down anyone and everyone's throat even >though their product isn't polished. Mandrake released 8.0 a few weeks ago >with a broken compiler they called a beta in a final release. The BSD >community does their own thing and spreads their software through their >circle of influence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 1:23:24 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nef.ens.fr (nef.ens.fr [129.199.96.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86AC837B42C for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 01:23:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Rahul.Siddharthan@lpt.ens.fr) Received: from corto.lpt.ens.fr (corto.lpt.ens.fr [129.199.122.2]) by nef.ens.fr (8.10.1/1.01.28121999) with ESMTP id f4M8NDR81984 ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:23:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from (rsidd@localhost) by corto.lpt.ens.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) id KAA44930 ; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:23:37 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:23:37 +0200 From: Rahul Siddharthan To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Greg Lehey , Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010522102337.A44037@lpt.ens.fr> Mail-Followup-To: Ted Mittelstaedt , Greg Lehey , Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <20010521114737.C96248@lpt.ens.fr> <000001c0e213$5c706660$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000001c0e213$5c706660$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com.iisc.ernet.in on Mon, May 21, 2001 at 09:30:34AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.4-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >This is the context of my earlier remarks on "activism" on issues > >like DeCSS -- such activism simply does not exist in the BSD world. > >Ted's entire response to my mail was to justify in detail why > >there's no point in doing anything. > > For me it's that issue only - it's more of a "choose your battles" > thing, and I've not chosen DeCSS, I've chosen other things. (like > the Microsoft business) But, I'd say that while it's overstating to > say there's _no_ activism, I think your probably close to the mark > that there is a lot less than among the GPL. Yes, what I meant was that the community doesn't do battles. You as an individual might, but I've never heard of a case where the BSD community thought a particular law, or a particular company's policies, or a particular situation in the industry, was unfair and rallied against it. Unless you count the AT&T lawsuit. > >I don't have a problem with any of this. If the BSD people > >want to focus on improving their code, well, that indicates focus and > >commitment, and those are good things. > > > >BUT -- if the same BSD people then turn around and complain that Bruce > >Perens isn't asking them to sign his petition -- *that* I have a > >problem with. That's hypocrisy. That's wanting things both ways. > > > > No, that's not because I don't subscribe to the _world BSD view_ if > such a thing exists. > > It might be hypocrisy for someone like _Greg_ to demand a place on > Bruce's petition, because Greg seems opposed to that kind of activism, > so that would be consistent for him. But, it's not hypocrisy for _me_ > to be demanding it because I've been more activist. You as an individual are hardly noticed outside the BSD world. If the BSD *community* had been more activist, Perens would surely have thought of inviting a few people. But the more vocal part of the BSD community is either silent on issues broader than an operating system, or else so consistently anti-GNU, anti-GPL, that it's no surprise he didn't think of asking. Given that the letter he wrote (and Microsoft's attack) was specifically about the GPL, are you, or other people in the BSD world who are feeling "left out", willing to write another letter? No need to invite the Perens crowd to sign. The letter could simply go like this: "We work on BSD operating systems, we try to avoid using the GPL and don't always agree with the FSF ideology, but nevertheless we disagree with Microsoft's recent statements, for these reasons..." I have a feeling that a number of people may prefer to write "We agree with Microsoft on these issues" though... > >I'm thinking of expanding these views into a longer article, but > >thought I'd see how people react... > > > > Just keep in mind that the BSD people like being tarred by the same brush > even less than the Linux people do. Be careful and you should do fine. Will keep this list posted :) - Rahul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 3:32:28 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07C2937B42C for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0077.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.192.77]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14954; Tue, 22 May 2001 06:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B0A4004.A9A2D6E5@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 03:31:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Rahul Siddharthan , Greg Lehey , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <000001c0e177$c3efbbc0$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Similar issues have happened with, for example, the Physics > student who several years ago wrote a thesis explaining how > to make a crude atomic bomb, based completely on unclassified > materials. It pissed off the DoA, (who promptly reclassifed > a few key items) but they couldn't go after him, although if > anyone had actually tied to _make_ a bomb, then there would > have been a variety of laws to use to go after them. I think this is an urban legend. One of the things we H.E. physics geeks used to do in college was sit around the Union building designing really high yield, or really dirty, or really clean, or really small fission devices, and then critique each other's designs. At the time, SDI seemed to be very realizable (an EMP powered X-ray laser, using a tin wire in a lead rod was the design of one of the people in the group; needless to say, it was a one-time-use-only design). This was back before the bottom fell out of the weapons design market, and most of us ended up becoming professional computer scientists, instead. I still think SDI could be made to work... It hasn't been a design problem for a very long time; it's a materials availability problem, which is one of the main reasons nuclear materials are so highly regulated in the U.S. -- surprising, actually, given the number of fast breeder reactors in Japan and France. You might want to read: The Curve of Binding Energy John A. McPhee Noonday Printing ISBN: 0374515980 -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 3:57:16 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4BD837B424 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:57:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert2@mindspring.com) Received: from mindspring.com (pool0077.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.192.77]) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22661; Tue, 22 May 2001 06:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B0A461C.58A81808@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 03:57:32 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Reply-To: tlambert2@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Johnson Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" References: <000101c0e0ff$44725600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B095240.F7873FAD@acuson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Johnson wrote: > > Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > > > Well, I remember paging through that in the bookstore > > once, and while I admit I didn't look through all volumes > > (they wern't all there) what I remember of it was mainly > > reprints of the system manual pages. Not much to > > recommend purchase as the price was rather high. > > That's what 75% of their X11 series was, and it sold very well. > > I think the difference is that the X11 series was general > to all unices, while the 4.4BSD Lite was specific to a > single OS. ORA publishes a lot of Linux books because there > is a big market demand for them. But there isn't a big > market demand for FreeBSD books. Unfortunate, but true. They were 4.4BSD books, and they were 4.4BSD-Lite, at a time that Lite2 was just about to be released, and had been hyped a bunch already. So they were out of date, and they had stale code (the CDROM was a Lite CDROM, published by Usenix). The 4.4BSD code from CSRG was a rather big disappointment, since it didn't result in a running system. So basically, it was stale documentation for broken code, which was not entirely relevent to the systems derived from that code. I bought a set of the books, both because I could get a full set all at once, and because they were much less to carry around than my set of orange Ultrix manuals, which they effectively replaced as my "almost applicable to FreeBSD" manuals. It didn't hurt that much of the profit was given over in support of Usenix, either. I'm not really surprised that the books didn't sell that well; I'm actually more surprised that they sold as well as they did. -- Terry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 11:44:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from odin.acuson.com (odin.acuson.com [157.226.230.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3DB37B424 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djohnson@acuson.com) Received: from acuson.com ([157.226.47.12]) by odin.acuson.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.54) with ESMTP id AAA3072 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:50:34 -0700 Message-ID: <3B0AB396.1F4DC07A@acuson.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:44:38 -0700 From: David Johnson Organization: Acuson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders StandTogether" References: <20010521114737.C96248@lpt.ens.fr> <4.3.2.7.2.20010522002724.017eab68@mail.threespace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Technical Information wrote: > > One of the biggest mistakes that anyone can make in this industry is to > assume that technical superiority is enough to assure the success of a > product. How many technologies have we seen fall by the wayside in the Pardon me for intruding with some pop sociological and political analysis of the Linux and BSD communities :-) This is all gross generalization and prone to bad logic. Hackers and geeks are fiercely independent They demand complete control over their personal domain. Unix is attractive to them because it places them in control of their computer. Open Source unices are even more attractive because it offers them even more control. Individualists tend to fall into two broad political types. One type is "hermit". They expect all other people to be equally individualistic. They have no desire to tell others what to do. "If I can do it, so can everyone else." They don't coalesce into communities very well. Warfare with other communities and individuals is rare. The other type is "tribal". They group everyone else into the ranks of "elder", "us" and "them". It is okay to tell lower ranks what to do, and it is accepted that lower ranks may very well tell the upper ranks to "shove off". Community(tribe) is central, but because they are still individualists, they choose their own tribe and sometimes change tribes. Warfare with other tribes is common. BSD land is mainly "hermit". It expects the newbie to be able to learn how to do stuff on his own. Help is available but hand holding is not. Warfare between the BSD systems is very rare. The BSD license fits perfectly. "Do whatever you want with the code." BSD users could care less what system other people use. Linuxland is mainly "tribal". There are tribes within tribes, and they all fight each other to some extent. If a newbie gets snubbed in one subtribe, they find another. The GPL license fits perfectly. "Contribute your code back to the tribe". Linux users often take great offense if some else isn't using the same extact distro. Just some random musings... David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 16: 5:56 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wantadilla.lemis.com (wantadilla.lemis.com [192.109.197.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17E337B42C for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: by wantadilla.lemis.com (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B4DE86ACBE; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:35:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:35:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Johnson , Ted Mittelstaedt , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010523083550.F41189@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <000101c0e0ff$44725600$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <3B095240.F7873FAD@acuson.com> <3B0A461C.58A81808@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3B0A461C.58A81808@mindspring.com>; from tlambert2@mindspring.com on Tue, May 22, 2001 at 03:57:32AM -0700 Organization: The FreeBSD Project Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-418-838-708 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 22 May 2001 at 3:57:32 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote: > David Johnson wrote: >> >> Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> >>> Well, I remember paging through that in the bookstore >>> once, and while I admit I didn't look through all volumes >>> (they wern't all there) what I remember of it was mainly >>> reprints of the system manual pages. Not much to >>> recommend purchase as the price was rather high. >> >> That's what 75% of their X11 series was, and it sold very well. >> >> I think the difference is that the X11 series was general >> to all unices, while the 4.4BSD Lite was specific to a >> single OS. ORA publishes a lot of Linux books because there >> is a big market demand for them. But there isn't a big >> market demand for FreeBSD books. Unfortunate, but true. > > They were 4.4BSD books, and they were 4.4BSD-Lite, at a > time that Lite2 was just about to be released, and had > been hyped a bunch already. > > So they were out of date, and they had stale code (the > CDROM was a Lite CDROM, published by Usenix). The 4.4BSD > code from CSRG was a rather big disappointment, since it > didn't result in a running system. > > So basically, it was stale documentation for broken code, > which was not entirely relevent to the systems derived > from that code. > > I bought a set of the books, both because I could get a > full set all at once, and because they were much less to > carry around than my set of orange Ultrix manuals, which > they effectively replaced as my "almost applicable to > FreeBSD" manuals. It didn't hurt that much of the profit > was given over in support of Usenix, either. > > I'm not really surprised that the books didn't sell that > well; I'm actually more surprised that they sold as well > as they did. The real issue that surprises me is the lack of understanding at O'Reilly. As a result of the poor sales of these books, they concluded that there was no market for any BSD book. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 16:38:35 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA7937B424 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FB535F5A for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:38:26 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:38:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders StandTogether" From: markemmanuel To: FreeBSD advocacy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3B0AB396.1F4DC07A@acuson.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoted from the Book of David Johnson Ch 6:7-13 on 5/22/01 1:44 PM: > Pardon me for intruding with some pop sociological and political > analysis of the Linux and BSD communities :-) This is all gross > generalization and prone to bad logic. Woohoo!!! I love sociology. I'm in college right now and my minor is sociology and I'm also pursuing a a computer science certificate. > Hackers and geeks are fiercely independent They demand complete control > over their personal domain. Unix is attractive to them because it places > them in control of their computer. Open Source unices are even more > attractive because it offers them even more control. Yep... I have to agree with that. :) > Individualists tend to fall into two broad political types. One type is > "hermit". They expect all other people to be equally individualistic. > They have no desire to tell others what to do. "If I can do it, so can > everyone else." They don't coalesce into communities very well. Warfare > with other communities and individuals is rare. > > The other type is "tribal". They group everyone else into the ranks of > "elder", "us" and "them". It is okay to tell lower ranks what to do, and > it is accepted that lower ranks may very well tell the upper ranks to > "shove off". Community(tribe) is central, but because they are still > individualists, they choose their own tribe and sometimes change tribes. > Warfare with other tribes is common. Yep. :) > BSD land is mainly "hermit". It expects the newbie to be able to learn > how to do stuff on his own. Help is available but hand holding is not. > Warfare between the BSD systems is very rare. The BSD license fits > perfectly. "Do whatever you want with the code." BSD users could care > less what system other people use. They seem to more helpful when I've asked for help in the past compared to the Linux communities I've been at. However, there's no 'I use x distro so I'm better than you y distro punks,' that I've seen with Linux communities. To keep it simple, I get more help with BSDs than I have with Linux. :) I still use both but I like BSD a bit better. > Linuxland is mainly "tribal". There are tribes within tribes, and they > all fight each other to some extent. If a newbie gets snubbed in one > subtribe, they find another. The GPL license fits perfectly. "Contribute > your code back to the tribe". Linux users often take great offense if > some else isn't using the same extact distro. True dat. True dat! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 23: 8:46 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtppop3pub.verizon.net (smtppop3pub.gte.net [206.46.170.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C0537B422 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:08:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Received: from gte.net (evrtwa1-ar4-4-34-145-186.evrtwa1.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.145.186]) by smtppop3pub.verizon.net with ESMTP ; id BAA10573198 Wed, 23 May 2001 01:03:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from res03db2@localhost) by gte.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA20420; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from res03db2@gte.net) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:09:52 -0700 From: Robert Clark To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Greg Lehey , Brian Raynes , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010522230952.A20383@darkstar.gte.net> References: <20010521103857.H30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.4i In-Reply-To: <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:32:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So Linus is Bilbo? Raymond is Smeagol? McKusick is Tom Bombadil? The ring is the GPL? [RC] On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:32:41AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey > >Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:09 PM > >To: Ted Mittelstaedt > >Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand > >Together" > > > > Snip. > > In Chapter 10, on page 381, I liken Microsoft to the Dark Lord out of > Tolkien's Lord of the Rings > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 22 23:30:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.169.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908F837B424 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedm.placo.com (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [206.29.168.154]) by mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f4N6UZk74134; Tue, 22 May 2001 23:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: "Robert Clark" Cc: "Greg Lehey" , "Brian Raynes" , Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:30:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000001c0e351$dfc41680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20010522230952.A20383@darkstar.gte.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :-) There's really only a parallel between Sauron's drive to totally dominate everything, and Microsoft's drive to dominate everything. Of course, since Tolken's series really caught on in the late 70's, it's ancient history to the generation today. Now we have the parallels drawn between Microsoft and The Borg, otherwise the young pups won't understand the analogy. :-) But if I were to make more of an analogy between LoTR and OSS, I'd say that the BSD community are the High Elves that went West, while the Linux community are the Low Elves that never made the trip. Both worked together and both had their magic, but the High Elves were obviously much more powerful, although not as numerous. Ted Mittelstaedt tedm@toybox.placo.com Author of: The FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Book website: http://www.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Robert Clark >Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 11:10 PM >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >Cc: Greg Lehey; Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >Together" > > > >So Linus is Bilbo? > >Raymond is Smeagol? > >McKusick is Tom Bombadil? > >The ring is the GPL? > >[RC] > >On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:32:41AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> >[mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey >> >Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:09 PM >> >To: Ted Mittelstaedt >> >Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> >Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >> >Together" >> > >> > > >Snip. > >> >> In Chapter 10, on page 381, I liken Microsoft to the Dark Lord out of >> Tolkien's Lord of the Rings >> > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 23 4:24:55 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smyk.apk.net (smyk.apk.net [207.54.158.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7096237B42C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 04:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ipswitch@apk.net) Received: from localhost (stuart.apk.net [207.54.148.235]) by smyk.apk.net (8.11.2/8.11.2/apk.010219+rchk1.22+bspm1.13.1.5a) with ESMTP id f4NBOdT25968 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105231124.f4NBOdT25968@smyk.apk.net> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 07:24:33 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-125296086-1 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.388) From: Stuart Krivis To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v388) In-Reply-To: <014301c0e249$debd93f0$0300a8c0@oracle> Subject: Re: ExBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --Apple-Mail-125296086-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii On Monday, May 21, 2001, at 07:00 PM, Doug Young wrote: >> From my point of view (having done a few hundred FreeBSD installs) > there isn't much to pick from between Windows & FreeBSD installation. > The difficulty comes trying to configure X / sound / printers / ppp / > etc. > > There are two factors here ... firstly, the original use of unix > appears to have been as a research / development tool rather than as a > mass market desktop / gameplaying platform. Developers & other > assorted geeks will accept horribly user hostile things like vi, lpr, > X, ppp, etc, that certainly couldn't be described as "user friendly" > to non-experienced users. I'm not suggesting FreeBSD can be (or I find vi and lpr to be user-friendly. They do just what I tell them to, without having to wade through 6 levels of pointy-clicky things. There are far less surprises with unix than with some mass-market OSs. > should be) suitable for everyone ... there are even countless "levels > of enlightenment" within the faithful. I'm quite impressed by its > performance for webservers etc, but I couldn't imagine using FreeBSD > in its current form as a workstation. For those of us wanting > relatively basic functionality, X is a useless poxridden waste of > space, vi is an exercise in needless complexity, lpr is an extremely > messy abortion etc etc. > Whenever I have to use Windows, I miss X. But I am generally manipulating plain-text, so unix suits me well. vi is far simpler than almost anything else I can think of. lp(r)(d) itself is fine. The only trouble comes from the underlying setup. There are various solutions to that. It really isn't any worse than trying to get Windows or MacOS to print in many instances. Windows still wants to see local printers or else a printer attached to a Windows machine on the network. Getting it to print to any number of models of printers via IP is a hassle. Also, any printer that needs extra drivers or software leaves you at the mercy of the printer manufacturer. MacOS can be very easy, but I have watched Mac users struggle to get it to find the right printer out of several of the same model on the same network. It doesn't label them in the way you might expect. > Secondly, the traditional documentation was written by extremely > experienced users who had long forgotten to mention the countless > minor but critical points essential to someone less knowledgeable. Points like plugging in the power cord? Connecting the modem to the phone jack on the wall? I've run across a number of users who have been bitten by these problems. Where do you start? What level of complexity (simplicity) is useful for a given user? At what point does "user-friendly" become annoying and bothersome? Every person is going to have different needs. Some may not be served well by a system as flexible as unix. It's good that we have choice. I'd say that unix is best used by the "average"' person in an environment where there is at least one person who knows unix well. Hmmm... that's true of Windows and MacOS also. So much for the user-friendly approach. > Man > pages may have relevance to the former but are utterly useless to the > latter. Thankfully things have improved recently, at least the > handbook has & various other books / resource sites have appeared to > help fill the gap .... however man pages in general are still written > in martian / venusian / whatever & following the time honored > tradition of emulating "books with blank pages apart from chapter > headings". > To me, man pages like BSD has are wonderful. They tell me what I need to know without wading through a ton of garbage. But I use them as a "'ready-reference." > FWIW, my thoughts are that "task based" documentation would help both > newbies & "real world" sysadmins. People who are unfamiliar with the You're right in that task-based docs are valuable. They're just not _universally valuable_. Choice is good. There are times when I want one, and times when I want the other. > It may be that the present arrangement is the best overall .... the > experts have their preferred docs format in the man pages & everyone > else has the handbook / user-friendly resource sites. > Choice - what a concept! :-) Mac OS X is probably ideal in many ways because it gives you abstraction when you just want to accomplish a task without becoming an expert. But it also allows you to delve in and run things the way you want when you need that. --Apple-Mail-125296086-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii On Monday, May 21, 2001, at 07:00 PM, Doug Young wrote: From my point of view (having done a few hundred FreeBSD installs) there isn't much to pick from between Windows & FreeBSD installation. The difficulty comes trying to configure X / sound / printers / ppp / etc. There are two factors here ... firstly, the original use of unix appears to have been as a research / development tool rather than as a mass market desktop / gameplaying platform. Developers & other assorted geeks will accept horribly user hostile things like vi, lpr, X, ppp, etc, that certainly couldn't be described as "user friendly" to non-experienced users. I'm not suggesting FreeBSD can be (or I find vi and lpr to be user-friendly. They do just what I tell them to, without having to wade through 6 levels of pointy-clicky things. There are far less surprises with unix than with some mass-market OSs. 0000,0000,DEB7 should be) suitable for everyone ... there are even countless "levels of enlightenment" within the faithful. I'm quite impressed by its performance for webservers etc, but I couldn't imagine using FreeBSD in its current form as a workstation. For those of us wanting relatively basic functionality, X is a useless poxridden waste of space, vi is an exercise in needless complexity, lpr is an extremely messy abortion etc etc. Whenever I have to use Windows, I miss X. But I am generally manipulating plain-text, so unix suits me well. vi is far simpler than almost anything else I can think of. lp(r)(d) itself is fine. The only trouble comes from the underlying setup. There are various solutions to that. It really isn't any worse than trying to get Windows or MacOS to print in many instances. Windows still wants to see local printers or else a printer attached to a Windows machine on the network. Getting it to print to any number of models of printers via IP is a hassle. Also, any printer that needs extra drivers or software leaves you at the mercy of the printer manufacturer. MacOS can be very easy, but I have watched Mac users struggle to get it to find the right printer out of several of the same model on the same network. It doesn't label them in the way you might expect. 0000,0000,DEB7 Secondly, the traditional documentation was written by extremely experienced users who had long forgotten to mention the countless minor but critical points essential to someone less knowledgeable. Points like plugging in the power cord? Connecting the modem to the phone jack on the wall? I've run across a number of users who have been bitten by these problems. Where do you start? What level of complexity (simplicity) is useful for a given user? At what point does "user-friendly" become annoying and bothersome? Every person is going to have different needs. Some may not be served well by a system as flexible as unix. It's good that we have choice. I'd say that unix is best used by the "average"' person in an environment where there is at least one person who knows unix well. Hmmm... that's true of Windows and MacOS also. So much for the user-friendly approach. Man pages may have relevance to the former but are utterly useless to the latter. Thankfully things have improved recently, at least the handbook has & various other books / resource sites have appeared to help fill the gap .... however man pages in general are still written in martian / venusian / whatever & following the time honored tradition of emulating "books with blank pages apart from chapter headings". To me, man pages like BSD has are wonderful. They tell me what I need to know without wading through a ton of garbage. But I use them as a "'ready-reference." 0000,0000,DEB7 FWIW, my thoughts are that "task based" documentation would help both newbies & "real world" sysadmins. People who are unfamiliar with the You're right in that task-based docs are valuable. They're just not _universally valuable_. Choice is good. There are times when I want one, and times when I want the other. 0000,0000,DEB7 It may be that the present arrangement is the best overall .... the experts have their preferred docs format in the man pages & everyone else has the handbook / user-friendly resource sites. Choice - what a concept! :-) Mac OS X is probably ideal in many ways because it gives you abstraction when you just want to accomplish a task without becoming an expert. But it also allows you to delve in and run things the way you want when you need that. --Apple-Mail-125296086-1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 23 5:16:53 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail02.osite.com.br (mail02.osite.impsat.net.br [200.189.209.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63ADA37B440 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 05:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@foo.com) Received: from a59015.impsat.com.br (IDENT:root@a59015.impsat.com.br [200.189.250.15] (may be forged)) by mail02.osite.com.br (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4NCEPG11969; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:14:26 -0300 (EST) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 06:15:51 -0300 (BRT) From: Hebert Bernardo X-Sender: root@foo To: David Johnson Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders StandTogether" In-Reply-To: <3B0AB396.1F4DC07A@acuson.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 22 May 2001, David Johnson wrote: Hi, i would like to accomplish your point of view on this matter, you`re damm right!! :-) > Technical Information wrote: > > > > One of the biggest mistakes that anyone can make in this industry is to > > assume that technical superiority is enough to assure the success of a > > product. How many technologies have we seen fall by the wayside in the > Pardon me for intruding with some pop sociological and political > analysis of the Linux and BSD communities :-) This is all gross > generalization and prone to bad logic. > > Hackers and geeks are fiercely independent They demand complete control > over their personal domain. Unix is attractive to them because it places > them in control of their computer. Open Source unices are even more > attractive because it offers them even more control. > > Individualists tend to fall into two broad political types. One type is > "hermit". They expect all other people to be equally individualistic. > They have no desire to tell others what to do. "If I can do it, so can > everyone else." They don't coalesce into communities very well. Warfare > with other communities and individuals is rare. > > The other type is "tribal". They group everyone else into the ranks of > "elder", "us" and "them". It is okay to tell lower ranks what to do, and > it is accepted that lower ranks may very well tell the upper ranks to > "shove off". Community(tribe) is central, but because they are still > individualists, they choose their own tribe and sometimes change tribes. > Warfare with other tribes is common. > > BSD land is mainly "hermit". It expects the newbie to be able to learn > how to do stuff on his own. Help is available but hand holding is not. > Warfare between the BSD systems is very rare. The BSD license fits > perfectly. "Do whatever you want with the code." BSD users could care > less what system other people use. > > Linuxland is mainly "tribal". There are tribes within tribes, and they > all fight each other to some extent. If a newbie gets snubbed in one > subtribe, they find another. The GPL license fits perfectly. "Contribute > your code back to the tribe". Linux users often take great offense if > some else isn't using the same extact distro. > > Just some random musings... > > David > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 23 6:42: 6 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp2.registeredsite.com (mailtmp2.registeredsite.com [216.247.127.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D903637B43C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 06:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail4.registeredsite.com (mail4.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.13]) by mailtmp2.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4NDfvE19186 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:41:57 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com ([216.247.134.44]) by mail4.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4NDg2907386 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:42:02 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [216.247.134.44] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id AE272E4B00F4; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:41:59 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523093020.017d3fb8@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:41:45 -0400 To: FreeBSD Advocacy From: Technical Information Subject: Re: ExBSD In-Reply-To: <200105231124.f4NBOdT25968@smyk.apk.net> References: <014301c0e249$debd93f0$0300a8c0@oracle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:24 AM 5/23/2001, you wrote: >I'd say that unix is best used by the "average"' person in an environment >where there is at least one person who knows unix well. > >Hmmm... that's true of Windows and MacOS also. So much for the >user-friendly approach. Even if this is true, I can probably find a dozen people who know Windows well before I ran into one person who knew UNIX well. And then I'd have to ask whether he was using my particular brand of UNIX. My opinion/experience is that Windows is much easier to use than UNIX for most desktop tasks, and things like the "Internet Connection Sharing Wizard" make setting up DHCP servers much easier than editing routing tables and config files in /etc. I don't think Windows offers as much flexibility/power/stability as UNIX, but for lots of common tasks it's "good enough." I believe that the ease of use factor and the easy to use, easy on the eyes user interface is one of the big reasons why Windows will continue to prevail on the desktop. And the application availability can't be beaten. --Chip Morton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 23 11:16:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from meow.osd.bsdi.com (meow.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AABE337B422 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Received: from laptop.baldwin.cx (john@jhb-laptop.osd.bsdi.com [204.216.28.241]) by meow.osd.bsdi.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4NIGAG85742; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhb@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000001c0e351$dfc41680$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:16:13 -0700 (PDT) From: John Baldwin To: Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: RE: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org, Brian Raynes , Greg Lehey , Robert Clark Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23-May-01 Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >:-) There's really only a parallel between Sauron's drive > to totally dominate everything, and Microsoft's drive to > dominate everything. > > Of course, since Tolken's series really caught on in the > late 70's, it's ancient history to the generation today. Now we > have the parallels drawn between Microsoft and The Borg, > otherwise the young pups won't understand the analogy. :-) So since I've read LoTR at least 15 times it means I'm a generational misfit? :) > But if I were to make more of an analogy between LoTR and > OSS, I'd say that the BSD community are the High Elves that > went West, while the Linux community are the Low Elves that > never made the trip. Both worked together and both had their > magic, but the High Elves were obviously much more powerful, > although not as numerous. Now referring to The Simirallion (sp?) is where you will lose people. :) LoTR only touches on the difference between High and Low, whereas TS covers it in greater detail. The rings are probably the markets in the industry being competed over, and the desktop/server market would probably only be the 3 elven rings anyways. I wouldn't say that the desktop market is the One ring. Figuring out the symbolism of the 7 dwarven rings and 9 human rings is left as an exercise to the reader. (bad pun) -- John Baldwin -- http://www.FreeBSD.org/~jhb/ PGP Key: http://www.baldwin.cx/~john/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.FreeBSD.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 23 16: 1:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 803DC37B61D for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:01:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shannon@widomaker.com) Received: from [209.96.185.98] (helo=escape.shannon.net) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 152hd7-000OOr-00; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:01:26 -0400 Received: (from shannon@localhost) by escape.shannon.net (8.11.0/8.8.8) id f4NMWds17640; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 18:32:33 -0400 From: Shannon To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: Greg Lehey , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010523183233.A15682@widomaker.com> Mail-Followup-To: Ted Mittelstaedt , Greg Lehey , Don Wilde , Anders Nordby , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, core@daemonnews.org References: <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Fri, May 18, 2001 at 10:54:10PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 10:54:10PM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: > Yes, there's no shortage of BSD followers bashing GPL, and vis-versa. > But, I guess I don't see the bashing being carried out by the BSD > leadership, like McKusick for example. Contrast this to Linus calling > MacOS X "crap" He did not call MacOS X crap. He said Mach was crap: "Frankly, I think it's a piece of crap," Torvalds says of Mach, the microkernel on which Apple's new operating system is based. "It contains all the design mistakes you can make, and manages to even make up a few of its own." I've read kernel list messages were Linus and other kernel hackers talked about how much BSD or other OS did something better, and what they needed to do to fix that problem. That he (Linus) doesn't like Mach is nothing new. I think I've even heard a few BSD people criticize Mach over the years. -- shannon@widomaker.com _________________________________________________ ______________________/ "And in billows of might swell the Saxons before her,-- Unite, oh unite! Or the billows burst o'er her!" -- Downfall of the Gael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 23 17:19:34 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mailtmp4.registeredsite.com (mailtmp4.registeredsite.com [216.247.127.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBBC37B42C for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:19:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tech_info@threespace.com) Received: from mail3.registeredsite.com (mail3.registeredsite.com [64.224.9.12]) by mailtmp4.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4O0I2k07270 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:18:03 -0400 Received: from mail.threespace.com ([216.247.134.44]) by mail3.registeredsite.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f4O0I7c25916 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:18:07 -0400 Received: from CX1063714-B.threespace.com [216.247.134.44] by mail.threespace.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A33B1CC3012A; Wed, 23 May 2001 20:18:03 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523201422.017b5868@mail.threespace.com> X-Sender: tech_info@mail.threespace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:17:55 -0400 To: FreeBSD Advocacy From: Technical Information Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" In-Reply-To: <20010523183233.A15682@widomaker.com> References: <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm not sure I see the difference. You have to figure that if he thinks Mach is crap, and MacOS X is derived from Mach, then he thinks that MacOS X is crap. It's like saying "He didn't call Pavarotti stupid. He said Italians are stupid." Let's not ignore the context of the quotation. Besides, I don't think anyone is faulting Mr. Torvalds for having his opinion. But his public handling of it is still pretty poor given his status and the weight his comments carry. --Chip Morton At 06:32 PM 5/23/2001, Shannon wrote: >He did not call MacOS X crap. He said Mach was crap: > > "Frankly, I think it's a piece of crap," Torvalds says of > Mach, the microkernel on which Apple's new operating system > is based. "It contains all the design mistakes you can make, > and manages to even make up a few of its own." > >I've read kernel list messages were Linus and other kernel hackers >talked about how much BSD or other OS did something better, and what >they needed to do to fix that problem. That he (Linus) doesn't like Mach >is nothing new. I think I've even heard a few BSD people criticize Mach >over the years. > >-- >shannon@widomaker.com _________________________________________________ >______________________/ > "And in billows of might swell the Saxons before her,-- Unite, oh > unite! Or the billows burst o'er her!" -- Downfall of the Gael > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 23 19: 1:29 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wilma.widomaker.com (wilma.widomaker.com [204.17.220.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A5BA37B422 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 19:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from shannon@widomaker.com) Received: from [209.96.185.98] (helo=escape.shannon.net) by wilma.widomaker.com with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #2) id 152kRE-0008Dx-00; Wed, 23 May 2001 22:01:20 -0400 Received: (from shannon@localhost) by escape.shannon.net (8.11.0/8.8.8) id f4O1XQa18854; Wed, 23 May 2001 21:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:33:25 -0400 From: Shannon To: Technical Information Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010523213325.A18474@widomaker.com> References: <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010519092859.F7708@wantadilla.lemis.com> <000001c0e028$20147860$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com> <20010523183233.A15682@widomaker.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010523201422.017b5868@mail.threespace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523201422.017b5868@mail.threespace.com>; from tech_info@threespace.com on Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:17:55PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:17:55PM -0400, Technical Information wrote: > I'm not sure I see the difference. You have to figure that if he thinks > Mach is crap, and MacOS X is derived from Mach, then he thinks that MacOS X > is crap. It's like saying "He didn't call Pavarotti stupid. He said > Italians are stupid." Let's not ignore the context of the quotation. MacOS X is not derived from Mach. It uses Mach, but it is derived from FreeBSD 3.2. It's more like he said he hated Italian shoes. "Oh, he hates opera because Pavarotti is part of the opera, and he's wearing Italian shoes!" I think this is just a case of the media looking for news where there is none. This is ten year old news at best. > Besides, I don't think anyone is faulting Mr. Torvalds for having his > opinion. But his public handling of it is still pretty poor given his > status and the weight his comments carry. What public handling? The media gave you a sound bite that may very well have been part of a 30 minute discussion, the full disclosure of which might end the debate completely. He cannot "handle" every little spin the media puts on his words. No one can. I'm curious about what he thinks of MacOS X specifically, but until someone asks, "Linus, what is your opinion on MacOS X and it's FreeBSD 3.2 foundation", and he answers, we have no idea. -- shannon@widomaker.com _________________________________________________ ______________________/ armchairrocketscientistgraffitiexenstentialist "And in billows of might swell the Saxons before her,-- Unite, oh unite! Or the billows burst o'er her!" -- Downfall of the Gael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 24 21:11: 4 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gc0.generalconcepts.com (24.65.54.138.on.wave.home.com [24.65.54.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB6C37B424; Thu, 24 May 2001 21:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsellens@generalconcepts.com) Received: (from jsellens@localhost) by gc0.generalconcepts.com (8.11.3/8.11.1) id f4P4AlL41933; Fri, 25 May 2001 00:10:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jsellens) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:10:47 -0400 (EDT) From: John Sellens Message-Id: <200105250410.f4P4AlL41933@gc0.generalconcepts.com> To: fschapachnik@vianetworks.com.ar, nik@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Exchange substitute Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:09:15 -0400 | From: Nik Clayton | | Go to www.steltor.com, and look at their products, which run on Unix | (inc. Linux, but not BSD) and claim to provide the necessary | functionality. FYI - when we were looking at Corporate Time (now steltor) for calendaring last year, the linux client seemed to run fine on FreeBSD. It seemed to be a pretty good product. Cheers John jsellens@generalconcepts.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 25 17:30:54 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp-2.enteract.com (smtp-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46AAD37B422 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:30:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lists@markemmanuel.org) Received: from [147.126.50.163] (unknown [147.126.50.163]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F797633A for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 19:30:36 -0500 (CDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:30:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders StandTogether" From: markemmanuel To: FreeBSD advocacy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3B0AB396.1F4DC07A@acuson.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quoted from the Book of David Johnson Ch 6:7-13 on 5/22/01 1:44 PM: > Pardon me for intruding with some pop sociological and political > analysis of the Linux and BSD communities :-) This is all gross > generalization and prone to bad logic. Woohoo!!! I love sociology. I'm in college right now and my minor is sociology and I'm also pursuing a a computer science certificate. > Hackers and geeks are fiercely independent They demand complete control > over their personal domain. Unix is attractive to them because it places > them in control of their computer. Open Source unices are even more > attractive because it offers them even more control. Yep... I have to agree with that. > Individualists tend to fall into two broad political types. One type is > "hermit". They expect all other people to be equally individualistic. [snip] > The other type is "tribal". They group everyone else into the ranks of > "elder", "us" and "them". It is okay to tell lower ranks what to do, and > it is accepted that lower ranks may very well tell the upper ranks to > "shove off". [snip] > Warfare with other tribes is common. > > BSD land is mainly "hermit". It expects the newbie to be able to learn > how to do stuff on his own. Help is available but hand holding is not. > Warfare between the BSD systems is very rare. The BSD license fits > perfectly. "Do whatever you want with the code." BSD users could care > less what system other people use. > > Linuxland is mainly "tribal". There are tribes within tribes, and they > all fight each other to some extent. If a newbie gets snubbed in one > subtribe, they find another. The GPL license fits perfectly. "Contribute > your code back to the tribe". Linux users often take great offense if > some else isn't using the same extact distro. > > Just some random musings... > > David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 26 6:14:52 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from jhs.muc.de (jhs.muc.de [193.149.49.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF6CE37B423; Sat, 26 May 2001 06:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhs@jhs.muc.de) Received: from park.jhs.private (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhs.muc.de (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4PDQSx10060; Fri, 25 May 2001 13:26:28 GMT (envelope-from jhs@park.jhs.private) Message-Id: <200105251326.f4PDQSx10060@jhs.muc.de> To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: Chris Coleman , jhs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, dg@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Questions for Wind River From: "Julian Stacey" Organization: Vector Systems Ltd - Munich Unix & Internet consultancy X-Web: http://www.jhs.muc.de http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 24 May 2001 15:48:26 EDT." Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:26:28 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Reference: > From: Chris Coleman > To: announce@FreeBSD.ORG > Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 15:48:26 -0400 (EDT) > Message-id: Hi, Chris Coleman wrote: > > When Wind River acquired the software assets of BSDi, they were very good > about addressing the BSD/OS community as well as addressing the FreeBSD > developers with direct Q&A sessions with Wind River executives. > > However, I still think that the rest of the BSD community and much of the > Open Source community may still have questions that weren't addressed in > those Q&A sessions, nor in the "mass media" press releases. > > Wind River executives have agreed to Q&A session with Daemon News and we > are soliciting your questions. Question: Who owns the FreeBSD trademark this year ? And next year ... ;-) ? It started with FreeBSD Inc (a jkh + dg combo (Cc'd)), passed to WC or BSDi (see claim of ownership on CD liner). BSDi bought WC Inc., Wind River bought BSDi interest in FreeBSD. This is unlikely the last takeover ! Compaq bought DEC, so Wind River is not too big to be bought. Predatory takeovers of companies & assets inc. trademarks can & do occur. Could the trademark be assigned back to some safe neutral body that will ensure those building on & using FreeBSD code & name for add on businesses are not at some later date stung for charges to use a Trademark that's not Freebsd.Org property/free, even though the code is `our' property/free ? PS I'm not on advocacy@ , please cc: jhs@freebsd.org > If you have concerns or questions for Wind > River please post them as a comment to the URL listed below and the > best ones will be used in the interview. > > http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1938 > > > ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ For Chris C & moderator of announce@: As Chris C used moderated announce@freebsd list to promote his question (& his web), it seems wrong to require that response must avoid the freebsd.org server, Many readers are not permanently on line to reply via Chris's Web, & email is easier ! Julian - Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! Like Linux ? Then also look at FreeBSD with its 5000+ packages ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 26 9:55:10 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD2937B423; Sat, 26 May 2001 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix, from userid 1005) id 7EBBB11; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vnode.vmunix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D59549A13; Sat, 26 May 2001 12:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 12:55:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Julian Stacey Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, jhs@freebsd.org, jkh@freebsd.org, dg@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Questions for Wind River In-Reply-To: <200105251326.f4PDQSx10060@jhs.muc.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > http://daily.daemonnews.org/view_story.php3?story_id=1938 > > > > > > > ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ > > For Chris C & moderator of announce@: > > As Chris C used moderated announce@freebsd list to promote > his question (& his web), it seems wrong to require that response > must avoid the freebsd.org server, Many readers are not permanently > on line to reply via Chris's Web, & email is easier ! > It wasn't a request to avoid the freebsd.org servers, but a desire to have all the questions placed in one spot. Most likely I will not be doing the actual interview, just coordinating the event. So it makes things much easier for us if the questions are gathered with out me having to maintain them in my already flooded inbox. Plus having them in a public place cuts down on duplication of questions. Speaking of which, would you please post your question to the URL so that is can be properly included? Thanks. -Chris Coleman > Julian > - > Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ > Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! > Like Linux ? Then also look at FreeBSD with its 5000+ packages ! > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 26 19:29:45 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn.Stanford.EDU [171.66.112.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6ECD37B422 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 19:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA86887 for ; Sat, 26 May 2001 19:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 19:24:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: More Chapters from Introductory Book Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Archive: (Web Archive) List-Help: (List Instructions) List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've added a few more chapters to my anon ftp site (ftp andrsn.stanford.edu/pub/introbook) and replaced earlier chapters with revisions--not much substantive but a few corrections of typos, better formatting, and elimination of a character that was preventing the documents from printing on a printer. I continue to be interested in comments from proofing through substance and appreciate very much those I've received so far. I just have a few miscellaneous chapters left to do. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message