From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 17 05:32:00 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id FAA12886 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 05:32:00 -0700 Received: from kryten.atinc.com (kryten.Atinc.COM [198.138.38.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id FAA12881 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 05:31:56 -0700 Received: (jmb@localhost) by kryten.atinc.com (8.6.9/8.3) id IAA26940; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 08:23:37 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 08:23:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: write-back vs write-thru To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk 10% ;))) on friday i received a brand spanking new 'dirty' chip for the 256kB level 2 cache sp3g motherboard i have. last night i supped -stable and did the usual make world write-thur: 30082.80 real 16436.87 user 3887.32 sys 36442.26 real 16598.26 user 3967.11 sys <-- excessive use of tail -f by operator 30638.79 real 16447.05 user 3895.20 sys write-back: 27178.79 real 16038.30 user 3789.03 sys its only one data point and -stable does change from day to day, but looks good! i will run more make world's starting again wednesday night when i return from florida. jmb Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.Org | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 17 10:59:34 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id KAA20915 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 10:59:34 -0700 Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [192.216.222.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA20887 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 10:59:30 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA08523 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 08:11:40 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04022; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:14:19 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509171514.LAA04022@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: 2.1 -- When? Hey -- anyone going to be at Unix-expo? To: dufault@hda.com (Peter Dufault) Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199509171317.JAA12447@hda.com> from "Peter Dufault" at Sep 17, 95 09:17:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 649 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > > > > > > I'm thinking of going. It will be a relief to be in a roomful of Unix. > > > > > > > Well, the main thing is the suits now outnumber the unix geeks. > > > > Bill > > (more or less a geek) > > I though all suits had gone to Windows 95. >From what I see it's more Windows NT we have to worry about. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 18 17:01:30 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id RAA11890 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:01:30 -0700 Received: from chrome.onramp.net (chrome.onramp.net [199.1.166.202]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA11876 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:01:27 -0700 Received: from localhost.jdl.com (localhost.jdl.com [127.0.0.1]) by chrome.onramp.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA03071 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:00:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199509190000.TAA03071@chrome.onramp.net> X-Authentication-Warning: chrome.onramp.net: Host localhost.jdl.com didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: WebRouser Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:00:23 -0500 From: Jon Loeliger Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk The problem here, of course, is evident in the first paragraph. jdl ------- Forwarded Message Subject: Eolas releases WebRouser via the Internet Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:40:52 -0700 From: Wendell Craig Baker From: info@eolas.com (Eolas Information) Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 07:35:18 -0700 Subject: Eolas releases WebRouser via the Internet PRESS RELEASE: ================================================================= 9/18/95 Chicago: Eolas Technologies announced today that it has released its WebRouser(TM) applet-enabled World Wide Web browser, royalty-free for individual non-commercial use. Versions are currently available for Sun, SGI and Linux platforms, with Windows and Mac versions to follow in first quarter '95. The application, and sample Weblets can be downloaded via the Web at http://www.eolas.com/eolas/webrouse/. Based upon enhancements to NCSA's award-winning Mosaic program, WebRouser features patent-pending technology that drasticaly expands the functionality of Web-based applications, and provides a simple and convienient way to add new features to browser programs through the use of plug-in applications, called Weblets(TM). The Weblet enhancement allows fully-interactive program objects to be run from within Web pages, through the use of a simple command within the document's text. These Weblet programs become treated by the browser as a part of the Web document, displayed "inline" and controlled by the user in place, without diverting the user's attention from the document itself. Three demonstration Weblet programs are being distributed with the WebRouser package. These include an "inline" MPEG movie player, a 3D CAD file viewer/manipulator, and a 3D molecular modeling application. For example, when a user visits a Web page that has a URL for a 3D CAD model placed within the Web page through the use of the tag, the browser fetches the CAD file over the network and then launches the CAD viewer weblet on the user's machine. The user sees a live window within the Web page, displaying the fully-rendered 3D model, and a control panel which allows the user to rotate the model and zoom in to see details. When the user then travels from that page to the next destination on the Web, the browser "caches" the Weblet together with the Web page. If the user then hits the "back" button, to return to the most recent site, the Weblet appears again, right where the user left it, having maintained its "state" (rotation position, zoom level, etc) during the time it was cached. Many other Weblets are currently under development by Eolas and others, including Weblet-based interpreters for several popular programming languages, such as Safe-Tcl/Tk, PERL, and the GRASP animation language. Plans are in the works for the creation of both JAVA and Visual Basic Weblets as well. Other unique features of WebRouser include client-side image map support, and the ability for the browser's button bar and menu structure to be dynamically modified by simple commands within HTML documents. Client-side image maps, for example, allow HTML authors to create graphical interfaces to their content that can be distributed on CD ROM, using the same image-map-based front ends as the online versions. Many publishers are attempting to create hybrid CD ROMs that use Web browsers as their front-end, capitalizing on the ability to develop one body of content that can be used both for CD and online distribution. These projects are often stymied by the fact that the image maps that are currently all the rage on the Web cannot be used to front-end the CD content. The currrent approach on the Web is to use ISMAP-based image maps that require that a remote server decode the hotspots on the image. Since the ISMAP-based image maps are served up by the remote machine, they can't be used to front-end CDROM-based content, where oftentimes a network connection is not available. WebRouser's client-side maps can be loaded directly from the CD ROM, with no network connection required. Another major advantage of WebRouser is the ability of Web documents to dynamically modify the browser's button bar and menu structure. According to Eolas CEO, Mike Doyle, "Most Web designers try to build in some sort of navigation system into their documents, usually at the top of the page. The problem arises when the user scrolls down the page and suddenly the navigation GUI is no longer visible. WebRouser's command allows the Web document to place a button bar at the top of the screen, as a part of the WebRouser GUI. When the user scrolls down the document, the navigation buttons remain in place. Since the document drives the definition of the buttons' functions, each Web site can have its own Netscape-style "What's New," "What's Cool," etc. button bar pointing to their own content, not to some hard-coded browser company location, such as in other browsers." Similarly, a command allows a Web document to define a new menu option in the WebRouser menu bar, allowing the user to quickly jump to a particular Web page within a large, complex Web site hierarchy. "This represent a new paradigm, since these technologies empower Web designers to personalize their Web sites, and to deliver new levels of interactivity via the web. Taken together,these enhancements represent a quantum leap in the ability of Web site designers to build compelling functionality into their Web pages." Eolas also announced the launching of their commercial licensing program for both WebRouser and the development of Weblet-based commercial applications. Further information can be found at the Eolas WWW site (http://www.eolas.com), or by calling (312-337-8740), faxing (312-337-8743), or emailing (info@eolas.com) Eolas directly. ********************************************* * Eolas Technologies Incorporated * * 10 East Ontario Street, Suite 5106 * * Chicago, IL 60611 * * * * voice: (312)337-8740 * * fax: (312)337-8743 * * Web: http://www.eolas.com * ********************************************* ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 10:22:57 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id KAA18508 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:22:57 -0700 Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id KAA18464 ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:22:35 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id SAA10505; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 18:51:56 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id SAA11423; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 18:51:56 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA06748; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 18:31:17 +0200 From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199509191631.SAA06748@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: pci bus and current?? To: paul@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 18:31:17 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: se@zpr.uni-koeln.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199509191340.OAA29596@server.netcraft.co.uk> from "Paul Richards" at Sep 19, 95 02:40:48 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 376 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk As Paul Richards wrote: > > > Sorry, my reply to Joerg was not meant to be sent to the list ... > I think this is a conspiracy to make me learn German :-) It's surprising enough that Aachen didn't suffice for you to learn it. ;) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 21:44:51 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA16504 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:44:51 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (sri.MT.net [204.94.231.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA16496 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:44:48 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA26892; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:46:43 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:46:43 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199509200446.WAA26892@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GOTO haters to square one In-Reply-To: <199509200431.VAA12843@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199509200431.VAA12843@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > The only code of mine David & Nate have seen from me is kern_lkm.c Actually, I've not seen any code of yours. I'm simply arguing against the use of gotos. Am I a religious person? You betcha. Ask anyone of my friends and co-workers. :) The moral of the story is that I shouldn't be eating those cinnamon bears, cause I get too argumentative. Nate ----- Stamp out evil gotos. They are the mark of the anti-Programmer. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 22:01:18 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id WAA17311 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:01:18 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (sri.MT.net [204.94.231.129]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA17292 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:01:15 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA26955; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:03:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:03:13 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199509200503.XAA26955@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GOTO haters to square one In-Reply-To: <199509200452.VAA14310@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199509200446.WAA26892@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199509200452.VAA14310@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > Actually, I've not seen any code of yours. I'm simply arguing against > > the use of gotos. Am I a religious person? You betcha. Ask anyone of > > my friends and co-workers. :) > > I'm, *ahem* a bit *ahem* devout myself. 8-). > > > Stamp out evil gotos. They are the mark of the anti-Programmer. > Program kernels in Pascal to avoid goto's. Heck, why not Ada since Pascal is a dead language. *dripping in sarcasm* We *are* trying to be cutting edge, aren't we. *grin* Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 19 22:09:23 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id WAA17608 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:09:23 -0700 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA17601 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:09:21 -0700 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA15713; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:06:29 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199509200506.WAA15713@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: GOTO haters to square one To: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:06:28 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@rocky.sri.MT.net, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509200503.XAA26955@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 19, 95 11:03:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 455 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > > Program kernels in Pascal to avoid goto's. > > Heck, why not Ada since Pascal is a dead language. > > *dripping in sarcasm* > > We *are* trying to be cutting edge, aren't we. *grin* Probably allow the Kernel on "Space Station Freedom". 8-). Actually, GNU Ada has unacceptable library licensing. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 20 13:11:50 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id NAA25543 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:11:50 -0700 Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA25499 for ; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:11:35 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA19246; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:10:07 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA23375; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:09:57 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA10613; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:56:59 +0200 From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199509201856.UAA10613@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: GOTO haters to square one To: nate@rocky.sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:56:58 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199509200446.WAA26892@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Sep 19, 95 10:46:43 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 593 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk As Nate Williams wrote: > > > The only code of mine David & Nate have seen from me is kern_lkm.c > > Actually, I've not seen any code of yours. I'm simply arguing against > the use of gotos. Am I a religious person? You betcha. Ask anyone of > my friends and co-workers. :) If you don't like goto's, you are also forbidden to use explicit return's to jump out in the middle of a function. :-) Seriously, this is an entirely religious point. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 00:08:23 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id AAA27795 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:08:23 -0700 Received: from irz101.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz101.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.9]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id AAA27786 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:08:15 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz101.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id JAA24704; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:07:54 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA28011; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:07:53 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA14911; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:59:42 +0200 From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199509210659.IAA14911@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Well, it's a done deed now... :-) To: peter@jhome.DIALix.COM (Peter Wemm) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:59:42 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "Peter Wemm" at Sep 21, 95 12:28:58 pm X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 729 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Wemm wrote: > It's done.. Your repository manager is now happily married.. :-) Congrats! > Rosemary and I had organised an outside wedding in a park in the spring. > Only problem was there was a big line of cold front's heading over, and > it was a cloudy overcast day. Then, suddenly, the cloud stopped coming > over about 30 minutes before the start, and it turned into a bright clear > blue sky.. :-) Wow! Anyway, it was great! A good time was had by > all. Wow, you lucky Aussies, you've got spring right now, while the northern world suffers from fall. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 04:40:46 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id EAA03951 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 04:40:46 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id EAA03946 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 04:40:44 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA12339; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:42:52 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509211142.HAA12339@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: SCO buying Unix To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Cc: johnd@coat.com, mhaefeli@pyrite.nj.pyramid.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 961 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk I'm headed down to Unix Expo -- should be interesting to hear what the SCO--Novell deal means to the industry along with the AT&T breakup and NCR jettisonning (sic?). I can't believe SCO ate AT&T's USL... Little SCO now controls what's left of the "original Unix." Anyone want to guess who's going to buy NCR next? DEC probably doesn't have the cash or desire. IBM won't because of their anti trust fears. (Actually, Sequent and NCR would make a good mix -- both x86 based multiprocessor SysV boxes -- but Sequent is too small to buy em and Siemens-Nixdorf ate Pyramid.) Maybe Olivetti... So... would SCO grab a hardware company? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 05:01:43 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id FAA04249 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 05:01:43 -0700 Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id FAA04244 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 05:01:36 -0700 Received: from rks32.pcs.dec.com by mail1.digital.com; (5.65 EXP 4/12/95 for V3.2/1.0/WV) id AA23673; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 04:55:58 -0700 Received: by rks32.pcs.dec.com (Smail3.1.27.1 #16) id m0svkCO-0005OqC; Thu, 21 Sep 95 13:53 MSZ Message-Id: To: chat%freebsd.org@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com Subject: Aachen Reply-To: gj@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 11:53:52 GMT From: "gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk as J"org Wunsch wrote: > As Paul Richards wrote: > > > > > Sorry, my reply to Joerg was not meant to be sent to the list ... > > > I think this is a conspiracy to make me learn German :-) > > It's surprising enough that Aachen didn't suffice for you to learn > it. ;) what *did* happen in Aachen, anyway ? I had to work that weekend and couldn't attend. Is one of the participants planning to write about it ? Gary J From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 13:09:27 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id NAA26738 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:09:27 -0700 Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id NAA26727 ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:09:13 -0700 Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id WAA08066; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:09:07 +0200 Received: by sax.sax.de (8.6.11/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id WAA05012; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:09:07 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA16281; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:25:28 +0200 From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199509211725.TAA16281@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Aachen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:25:28 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: gj@freebsd.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: from "gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com" at Sep 21, 95 11:53:52 am X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 411 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk As gj%pcs.dec.com@inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com wrote: > > what *did* happen in Aachen, anyway ? I had to work that weekend and > couldn't attend. Is one of the participants planning to write about > it ? I'm intending to make a press release, but didn't have the time yet. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 16:09:35 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id QAA03091 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:09:35 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA03082 ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:09:29 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA12567; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:11:13 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509212311.TAA12567@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: FreeNix? To: gryphon@healer.com (Coranth Gryphon), freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509211600.MAA00421@healer.com> from "Coranth Gryphon" at Sep 21, 95 12:00:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1204 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > We are not System V. If we want to be System V stop calling ourselves > FreeBSD and become FreeUnix (FreeNix anyone? :-) Well... folks BSD is more or less dead -- at least as far as the commercial world goes. I hate to say it -- staying compatible with 4.4 when the rest of the world has passed it buy is a mistake. > > Seriously. If we want to throw away how /etc/rc works (and it does > work), then only take from other camps what we need. I have yet > to see a standard out (ie. all parts work identically) there on the > 8-10 unix flavors that I work with. So which one are you going to clone? Well, I've run Solaris,DC/OSx,OS/x,SVR3, SVR2, SVR0, HP-UX, Linux, SunOS and FreeBSD... I'm headed to AIX v3 and 4.x -- which I think is SVR4-ish in startup. Looks like there's more of the AT&T stuff out there than you think. My history is 8-2 not counting the AIX. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 16:18:52 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id QAA03411 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:18:52 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA03400 ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:18:49 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA13063; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:20:49 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509212320.TAA13063@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: ports startup scripts To: patl@asimov.volant.org Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <9509211439.AA22140@asimov.volant.org> from "patl@asimov.volant.org" at Sep 21, 95 07:39:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5019 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > |> > I suspect that most of the problem with the SVr4/Solaris/HP-UX startup > |> > script system is poor documentation. And a lot of the people complaining > |> > are really complaining about the change, not the actual result. Any > |> > change we make will suffer from that, no matter how good it is. > |> > |> It's not documentation. See the Nemeth Sysadmin book Edition 2 (the red > |> cover)... The yellow one documented the run levels with SVR2 (I think). > > Any documentation that doesn't come with the system is obscure. Unix > users and sysadmins tend to expect to find everything they need on-line. That's a generic Unix problem. Unix usually doesn't have "Documentation" it has reference matter. Now Vax/VMS had DOCUMENTATION. I've tried to configure HP-UX by the "Documentation"... ugh. /etc/netnfsrc /etc/bsdsrc /etc/bull&*^%$#rc... Init and inittab were in the docs with OS/x and DC/OSx... However the man pages don't give real sample scripts. They should be in some skel directory... I always used the TCPIP or NFS starter script as a model. > > |> Actually, it appears to be a cultural problem. Since there's no > |> standard "Unix" -- there's really two -- BSD and SYSTEM V > |> you get the one true Unix religious bigotry. > > Only two? Isn't that something like saying "There are two kinds of > Christianity - Roman Catholic and Protestant" ? :-) :-) > [ That was intended as a wry observation, not an invitation to rathole > on varieties of unix... ] And a damned good one. 8-) > > SVr4 was supposed to merge the two camps again by incorporating the > advantages of both systems. It fell down a bit in the areas where > both provided equivalent functionality in incompatible ways. And > they -really- screwed up a few things (like serial port and printer > administration.) > > > |> I've worked with both. I've been the sysadmin on SunOS, HP-UX, Solaris 2.4, > |> DC/OSx (SysVR4), OS/X (which had available both the AT&T and BSD init > |> and the Sys Admin would install EITHER ONE based on preferences at the > |> site). > |> > |> (Actually the capability to support both ways wouldn't be bad here... > |> how about keeping the old BSD init method as an option) > > If that can be done easily and cleanly, I'd go for it. > > |> At Pyramid's NJ training facility we noticed the following... > |> The Sys V method was pushed heavily in my classes as the method with the > |> most customization... However my office ran with the BSD init -- since the > |> rest of the office learned UNIX on the west coast -- while the bunch > |> of folks who came out of the telcom business here (ex-AT&T and Bellcore > |> folks) ran with the SysV setup. > > Which tends to support my point about inertia being the prime factor. > > |> > You make it sound like the folks working on FreeBSD would make changes > |> > just to be different from SYSV. I sincerely hope that is not the case. > |> > We should strive to produce the best unix-derived system that we can; > |> > but vigorously fight the Not Invented Here syndrome. If somebody else > |> > has a better solution than the one we are using, we should feel perfectly > |> > free to adopt it. Or, if we can, improve it further. > |> > |> Agreed... it looks like the argument comes down to NIH and that SysV's > |> startup complicates things more than the BSD /etc/rc /etc/rc.local does. > > I still think that complication is more apparent than real. In some ways, > it has actually made things easier by making some of the decisions more > obvious. (E.g., which run-level to put a link in corresponds to which > major section of rc or rc.local to insert your changes into.) > > |> However, a new user editing rc or rc.local and screwing up can cause a lot > |> of problems. I had to fix another admin's SunOS 4.1.3 machine when he > |> screwed it up so bad that the shared libraries weren't mounted. > > Exactly. And the SVr4 method makes life -MUCH- easier for anyone building > an installation package for add-on software. Scripts to safely modify > rc or rc.local have to make some scary assumptions... > > |> I think we should go the SVR4 route and I'm willing to document it... > > I'll support you all the way. (I'll offer to help, but I'm not sure I'm not much of a coder -- but I'm interested in Sysadmin issues. FreeBSD's going to get better and better the more discussion that goes into it. *I'll avoid the idea of conditional symbolic links and two sets of binaries so you could have both BSD and SYS_V compatible utilities. I'll avoid /usr/5bin or /usr/ucb -- both of which drove me nuts. *(i would've preferred the symlinks) * Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 16:45:34 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id QAA04326 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:45:34 -0700 Received: from main.statsci.com (main.statsci.com [198.145.127.110]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA04293 ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:45:26 -0700 Received: by main.statsci.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0svvIp-000r3tC; Thu, 21 Sep 95 16:45 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.1 5/23/95 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: gryphon@healer.com (Coranth Gryphon), freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeNix? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:11:13 -0400." <199509212311.TAA12567@shell.monmouth.com> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:45:14 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > Well, I've run Solaris,DC/OSx,OS/x,SVR3, SVR2, SVR0, HP-UX, Linux, > SunOS and FreeBSD... > > I'm headed to AIX v3 and 4.x -- which I think is SVR4-ish in startup. As is DEC's OSF/1 v3.2 although they are a little different in their organization - their init.d,rc2.d,etc directories are under /sbin/ instead of /etc. And SGI's IRIX v4/v5 (at least) have the /etc/*.d directories too. HP-UX's (up to 9.x at least) is odd in that they don't do the /etc/*.d/ directories, but that might be from a SVR2 basis? Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 StatSci, a div of MathSoft, Inc. 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 16:59:52 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id QAA05207 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:59:52 -0700 Received: from kryten.atinc.com (kryten.Atinc.COM [198.138.38.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id QAA05198 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:59:49 -0700 Received: (jmb@localhost) by kryten.atinc.com (8.6.9/8.3) id TAA20015; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:49:20 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:49:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Subject: Technical Specifications on FreeBSD 2.0.5 (fwd) To: chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Justin (below) wants to know how compatible we are with standard UNIX. now that USL has been sold to SCO and CSRG has been closed..... we ARE standard unix ;) Jonathan M. Bresler jmb@kryten.atinc.com | Analysis & Technology, Inc. FreeBSD Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.Org | 2341 Jeff Davis Hwy play go. | Arlington, VA 22202 ride bike. hack FreeBSD.--ah the good life | 703-418-2800 x346 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:23:48 -0700 From: Justin M. Dority To: questions@FreeBSD.org Subject: Technical Specifications on FreeBSD 2.0.5 Dear Sirs: I am interested in FreeBSD v2.0.5 and would like to know the technical specifications of this product (e.g. number of virtual consoles, minimum install size, maximum distributed install size, compatibility with Linux 1.2.8, etc.) and would appreciate it if you could send me some information on this product. One concern is where the password files are stored, whether in /etc/passwd or another location. I would like something as close to standard UNIX as possible. Sincerely, Justin M. Dority (JMDority@ix.netcom.com) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 17:13:45 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id RAA06292 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:13:45 -0700 Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA06287 ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:13:42 -0700 Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA18166; Fri, 22 Sep 95 00:13:06 GMT Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.38.193.4/SMI-4.1 (1.38.193.4)) id AA07421; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:13:03 -0600 Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:13:03 -0600 From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Message-Id: <9509220013.AA07421@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: gryphon@healer.com, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509212311.TAA12567@shell.monmouth.com> (message from Bill/Carolyn Pechter on Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:11:13 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: FreeNix? Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Bill" == Carolyn Pechter writes: Bill> Well... folks BSD is more or less dead -- at least as far as Bill> the commercial world goes. I hate to say it -- staying Bill> compatible with 4.4 when the rest of the world has passed it Bill> buy is a mistake. I think this is precisely the *wrong* attitude to have with regards to our project. Our system is an *alternative* UNIX to the rest of the world---a BSD UNIX. That's why I went with FreeBSD in the first place. Esix, Interactive, Solaris, and the others would all let me develop the applications I wanted. Even Linux would. But I wanted BSD UNIX. And I got it, by golly. And I'm sticking with it. I'm not going to use continue to use FreeBSD if it becomes FreeSVR4. It's *not* a mistake to keep ourselves 4.4 compatible. That's a desirable feature! -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Lab, Boulder Colorado USA Recite entire movie scripts (e.g. "The Road Warrior," "Repo Man," Casablanca,") almost inaudibly. -- One of 120 ways to annoy your roommate. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 21 21:59:00 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA15124 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:59:00 -0700 Received: from healer.com (healer-gw.Empire.Net [205.164.80.204]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA15107 ; Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:58:49 -0700 Received: (from gryphon@localhost) by healer.com (8.6.11/8.6.9.1) id AAA02364; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:18:07 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:18:07 -0400 From: Coranth Gryphon Message-Id: <199509220418.AAA02364@healer.com> To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov, pechter@shell.monmouth.com Subject: Re: FreeNix? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, gryphon@healer.com Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk >>"Bill" == Carolyn Pechter writes: Bill> Well... folks BSD is more or less dead -- at least as far as From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) > I think this is precisely the *wrong* attitude to have with regards to > our project. Our system is an *alternative* UNIX to the rest of the ... > I'm not going to use continue to use FreeBSD if it becomes FreeSVR4. Strongly seconded. -coranth ------------------------------------------+------------------------+ Coranth Gryphon | "Faith Manages." | | - Satai Delenn | Phone: 603-598-3440 Fax: 603-598-3430 +------------------------+ USMail: 11 Carver St, Nashua, NH 03060 Disclaimer: All these words are yours, except Europa... From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 03:18:46 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id DAA23996 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 03:18:46 -0700 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [192.216.222.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id DAA23987 ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 03:18:38 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA21716; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 03:18:12 -0700 To: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) cc: pechter@shell.monmouth.com, gryphon@healer.com, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeNix? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:13:03 MDT." <9509220013.AA07421@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 03:18:12 -0700 Message-ID: <21713.811765092@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > And I got it, by golly. And I'm sticking with it. I'm not going to > use continue to use FreeBSD if it becomes FreeSVR4. It's *not* a > mistake to keep ourselves 4.4 compatible. That's a desirable feature! I think this thread had gotten a little out of hand (though I congradulate the principles for taking it to -chat rather than swamping -hackers - thank you!) but I can summarize my own attitude (and what I'll thus be "pushing" for) thusly: 1. A lot of BSD fans run BSD because they're used to the organization of the tree and it's one less headache for them in administrating large collections of machines. We should therefore strive to maintain some consistency with *ourselves*, if not some vaporous "BSD" standard, and this means no gratuitous changes for change's sake. 2. That said, if some change is *not* gratuitous and provides significant additional functionality or makes an admin's job easier, then we shouldn't throw it out just because it's new, different or looks suspiciously like what SYSV might have done. BSD is not or at least should not be a static, unchanging entity. That way lies stagnation and death. We need to continue to improve the product, and if that entails changing a few old and crufty mechanisms that were long overdue for replacement, then I say go for it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 08:34:22 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id IAA07390 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:34:22 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id IAA07383 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:34:19 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA10231; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:32:48 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509221532.LAA10231@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: ports startup scripts To: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:32:48 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freefall.FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199509221344.IAA20558@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Peter da Silva" at Sep 22, 95 08:44:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3114 Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Any particular reason you didn't CC hackers? > > > I'd prefer at least 5 > > 0 -- halt > > Ss -- single user > > 1 -- sysadmin > > How do these differ? I've never been able to figure out just what the point > of having three single-user levels in System V is. The Ss single user startup is the same as BSD single user. The 1 level on the machines I've seen runs the things like sync, cron, and a getty on the console... It's real nice for testing things like startup without letting users on via the net or over serial port gettys. I've used it as a final check before going to run states that let real users get at the machine. (Not too useful in workstations -- I agree -- but real slick on mini's and mainframe size multiprocessors.) > > Don't they logically fit in "server"? I do Oracle startup at level 3. Sometimes you just want everything up except the database -- like during exports of the database and backups. Since dropping from 4 to 3 shuts the db down you've got an easy automated backup method -- since cron could just change the run state, back up, and then go run level 4 again. I've done this with drops to run state 1 at times under Linux at home to automate a lot of backups. (It's real hard to do Single user cron'd backups 8-)...) Actually the a,b,c run states are supposed to be used for stuff like Oracle/Sybase etc. But no one really uses them. (If anyone has please let me know.) In 4 years of Unix training classes I've never found anyone who's used them except me. I just did it Beta'ing SVR4 to check the stuff worked as advertised. (I did find that Pyramid's DC/OSx -- which was ported to R3000 from i386 SVR4 asked to insert the floppy in the A drive and hit return when checking the "backup command." Of course, the machine had no floppy drive.) > > We could also do some security work here. If we can set things up that no > network services are available off-system at run level 2 (this would take > some work in daemons) then run level 2 would be effectively "firewalled". > You would run at level two when connecting to the Internet, for example. > > The problem is sendmail. You need to have sendmail running for local mail > to work. It would have to be made smart enough to refuse connections from > anywhere but localhost at level 2. Or could sendmail be classified as a > client service? > Sure... The great thing about Unix is the configurability and ease of modification. Run states give more -- not less options. You can always skip 'em if you don't want them. Here's an idea (kludge alert) off the top of my head... You could always run with two different sendmails and two sendmail.cf files. One for local delivery and UUCP only and one that knows about the internet and name server and switch 'em. (or is that too wierd). Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 08:36:09 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id IAA07490 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:36:09 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id IAA07483 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:36:05 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA10284; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:37:06 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509221537.LAA10284@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: ports startup scripts To: gryphon@healer.com (Coranth Gryphon) Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509221450.KAA03655@healer.com> from "Coranth Gryphon" at Sep 22, 95 10:50:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1152 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > It looks like the "S" and "K" scripts are for starting and stopping > things. There are two ways of doing this. > > First, you can have the "K" run when leaving a level (to go to a lower level > not a higher one), and the "S" when entering a level (unless coming from > a higher one). Never mind, that's overly complex. > > The other way is you run everything in a single directory (S and K) > when going to that directory. This actually makes the most sense to me. > You could use who -r to make decisions within the script as to whether to do something like killing the daemons. most SVRx scripts (and rc in SVR0-->2 do something like set who -r to get the following info -- run level, previous run level and the number of times in this run level. This info would allow you to avoid running the same stuff twice. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 09:29:35 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id JAA09363 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:29:35 -0700 Received: from fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.131.171]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id JAA09357 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:29:32 -0700 Received: by fslg8.fsl.noaa.gov (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA26592; Fri, 22 Sep 95 16:29:12 GMT Received: by emu.fsl.noaa.gov (1.38.193.4/SMI-4.1 (1.38.193.4)) id AA14641; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:29:10 -0600 Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:29:10 -0600 From: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly) Message-Id: <9509221629.AA14641@emu.fsl.noaa.gov> To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: peter@taronga.com, freebsd-chat@freefall.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509221532.LAA10231@shell.monmouth.com> (message from Bill/Carolyn Pechter on Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:32:48 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: ports startup scripts Sender: owner-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Bill" == Carolyn Pechter writes: Bill> The 1 level on the machines I've seen runs the things like Bill> sync, cron, and a getty on the console... It's real nice for Bill> testing things like startup without letting users on via the Bill> net or over serial port gettys. And then there's /etc/nologin---but I'm not sure if that's a better solution. Bill> I've done this with drops to run state 1 at times under Bill> Linux at home to automate a lot of backups. (It's real hard Bill> to do Single user cron'd backups 8-)...) Okay, I'm getting more and more convinced. But then again, I've been doing automated multiuser backups at 3.00am (with some die-hard users still on) and haven't lost any files. -- Sean Kelly NOAA Forecast Systems Laboratory, Boulder Colorado USA TASK: Shoot yourself in the foot. In Ada: After correctly packing your foot, you attempt to concurrently load the gun, pull the trigger, scream, and shoot yourself in the foot. When you try, however, you discover you can't because your foot is of the wrong type. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 21:04:23 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA24928 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:04:23 -0700 Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.164.220.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA24905 ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:04:15 -0700 Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26269; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:06:04 -0400 From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199509230406.AAA26269@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: ports startup scripts To: gryphon@healer.com (Coranth Gryphon) Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199509230324.XAA05317@healer.com> from "Coranth Gryphon" at Sep 22, 95 11:24:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 684 Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk > For example "rc.3" is a file for run-level (or run-state) 3 > that describes what gets run and what doesn't. Which means all we've > done is make more copies of "rc.local". Nevermind. > > We've gone full spiral. Let's start over. rc.3 on most SysV machines is just a script that goes through rc3.d starting and stopping stuff via the S* and K* scripts. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Pechter/Carolyn Pechter | The postmaster always pings twice. Lakewood MicroSystems | 17 Meredith Drive, 908-389-3592 | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 pechter@shell.monmouth.com | From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 22 21:58:47 1995 Return-Path: owner-chat Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) id VAA02911 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:58:47 -0700 Received: from gold.interlog.com (gold.interlog.com [198.53.145.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA02888 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:58:41 -0700 Received: from lotbiniere.interlog.com (lotbiniere.interlog.com [198.53.146.76]) by gold.interlog.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA25664; Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:58:36 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lotbiniere.interlog.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA01694; Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:31:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199509222131.RAA01694@lotbiniere.interlog.com> X-Authentication-Warning: lotbiniere.interlog.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: kelly@fsl.noaa.gov (Sean Kelly), pechter@shell.monmouth.com, gryphon@healer.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeNix? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 Sep 1995 03:18:12 PDT." <21713.811765092@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 17:31:36 -0400 From: Michel Joly de Lotbiniere Sender: owner-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I've not had a chance to follow all the discussion re. system init scripts, but no one has yet mentioned an existing concrete example of a non-proprietary SysV alternative. I am no Unix hacker or even aware of all the technical issues, but people could subject the existing Linux SysV init package ftp://tsx-11.mit.edu:/pub/linux/sources/sbin/SysVinit-?.??.tgz to a close analysis, for ideas and requirements. This particular package is copylefted, I think, and is certainly Linux specific, but if the shoe fits... On another subject mentioned in these discussions: the package installation utilities. Again, there's a concrete example, freely available, to sharpen wits: ftp://ftp.debian.org:/debian/source/base/dpkg-?.??.??.?.tar.gz and files Guidelines, doc/* in that package This seems to take care of package creation/dependencies, pre-,post-install, pre-,post-removal, checksumming and saving user configured files on upgrading and/or replacement of packages, control of up- and down- -grading, and a few other things. Getting it to work in the context of the BSD environment might be wasting effort, but an examination by the interested parties would not be. Anyway, just my opinion... ========================= Michel Joly de Lotbiniere mjdl@interlog.com =========================