From owner-freebsd-fs Sun Jul 28 03:58:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA15339 for fs-outgoing; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 03:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA15334 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 03:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cent.cs.tu-berlin.de (loewis@cent.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.22.20]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id MAA05283 for ; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:56:47 +0200 From: "Martin v.Loewis" Received: (loewis@localhost) by cent.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.6.12/8.6.6) id MAA18474 for freebsd-fs@freebsd.org; Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:56:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199607281056.MAA18474@cent.cs.tu-berlin.de> Subject: VGET question To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:56:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I wonder whether VOP_VGET should return the vnode locked. Most filesystems check their hash lists, and if the vnode is there, they'll perform vget(vp,1), thus locking the vnode. If they need a new vnode, they get it from getnewvnode, which returns it unlocked. In all cases I've checked, the vnode is then return unlocked to the caller. So what is the proper behaviour, here? Thanks, Martin From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Jul 29 03:06:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA17251 for fs-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA17245 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 03:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dfr@localhost) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA08550; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:06:33 +0100 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:06:32 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: "Martin v.Loewis" cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: VGET question In-Reply-To: <199607281056.MAA18474@cent.cs.tu-berlin.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Martin v.Loewis wrote: > I wonder whether VOP_VGET should return the vnode locked. Most filesystems > check their hash lists, and if the vnode is there, they'll perform > vget(vp,1), thus locking the vnode. > If they need a new vnode, they get it from getnewvnode, which returns it > unlocked. In all cases I've checked, the vnode is then return unlocked to > the caller. > So what is the proper behaviour, here? I think that the current intention is that it should be returned locked. The vnode from getnewvnode is locked (for UFS) by calling ufs_ihashins(). I believe that it should take a flag argument to specify whether it should be returned locked or unlocked. This would be consistent with vget() and might make it possible to clean up the weird locking code in VOP_LOOKUP. -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 251 4411 FAX: +44 171 251 0939 From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Jul 29 07:02:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA27242 for fs-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 07:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA27237 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by root.com (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA26819; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 06:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199607291356.GAA26819@root.com> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.root.com: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Doug Rabson cc: "Martin v.Loewis" , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: VGET question In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 29 Jul 1996 11:06:32 BST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 06:56:28 -0700 Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Martin v.Loewis wrote: > >> I wonder whether VOP_VGET should return the vnode locked. Most filesystems >> check their hash lists, and if the vnode is there, they'll perform >> vget(vp,1), thus locking the vnode. >> If they need a new vnode, they get it from getnewvnode, which returns it >> unlocked. In all cases I've checked, the vnode is then return unlocked to >> the caller. >> So what is the proper behaviour, here? > >I think that the current intention is that it should be returned locked. >The vnode from getnewvnode is locked (for UFS) by calling ufs_ihashins(). > >I believe that it should take a flag argument to specify whether it should >be returned locked or unlocked. This would be consistent with vget() and >might make it possible to clean up the weird locking code in VOP_LOOKUP. I agree with what Doug is saying here, but I should point out that making this kind of change right now might not be a very good idea. It will make us quite incompatible with filesystem work being done by Kirk McKusick and other people, not to mention opening the door for a significant number of new bugs and instability. This type of change really needs to be agreed upon be a larger set of people (outside of the FreeBSD group) before being done. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-fs Mon Jul 29 08:42:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA06216 for fs-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA06205 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id PAA29710; Mon, 29 Jul 1996 15:41:01 GMT Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 00:41:00 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock Reply-To: Michael Hancock To: David Greenman cc: Doug Rabson , "Martin v.Loewis" , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: VGET question In-Reply-To: <199607291356.GAA26819@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, David Greenman wrote: > This type of change really needs to be agreed upon be a larger set of > people (outside of the FreeBSD group) before being done. Who are the member's of this larger set? I can think of the following: 1. 4.4BSD heirs (FS people in BSDI, FreeBSD, NetBSD) 2. Kirk 3. FS contributors, UOG. Anyone else? From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 02:16:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA02031 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA02025 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 02:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dfr@localhost) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA11222; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:16:52 +0100 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:16:50 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson Reply-To: Doug Rabson To: David Greenman cc: "Martin v.Loewis" , freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: VGET question In-Reply-To: <199607291356.GAA26819@root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, David Greenman wrote: > >On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Martin v.Loewis wrote: > >[...] > > > >I believe that it should take a flag argument to specify whether it should > >be returned locked or unlocked. This would be consistent with vget() and > >might make it possible to clean up the weird locking code in VOP_LOOKUP. > > I agree with what Doug is saying here, but I should point out that making > this kind of change right now might not be a very good idea. It will make us > quite incompatible with filesystem work being done by Kirk McKusick and other > people, not to mention opening the door for a significant number of new bugs > and instability. > This type of change really needs to be agreed upon be a larger set of > people (outside of the FreeBSD group) before being done. I don't want to give anyone the impression that I was suggesting unilateral change in the VFS system. I totally agree with David that maintaining a consistent interface between the various strains 4.4BSD can only be a good thing. In fact, I imagine that Kirk is probably addressing some of these issues right now, since he appears to be doing filesystem work at the moment. -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 251 4411 FAX: +44 171 251 0939 From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 07:12:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18383 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from minnow.render.com (render.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.118]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA18378; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 07:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dfr@localhost) by minnow.render.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA14575; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:15:03 +0100 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:15:03 +0100 (BST) From: Doug Rabson To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: More VFS manpages Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk More manpages in ftp://freefall.freebsd.org/incoming/vopdoc-960730.tar.gz. This completes the VOP_*.9 set. Next will be vnode.9, VFS.9 and VFS_*.9. -- Doug Rabson, Microsoft RenderMorphics Ltd. Mail: dfr@render.com Phone: +44 171 251 4411 FAX: +44 171 251 0939 From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 14:14:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07347 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07304; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00605; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:13:20 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607302113.OAA00605@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:13:20 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jul 26, 96 00:24:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Terry, are you out there? Yes, I'm here. I broke my back two weeks ago last Thursday, and have been pretty much laid up and starving for network access. 8-(. > Please upload your mega patches. I'm sure someone will take a look and > maybe we can at least start with getting the locks fixed. > > Or do we just have to dream about the possibilities? I will not be able to get to this until this weekend. Basically, it's nothing more than a CVS diff on my machine, or I can upload the full /sys directory (like Poul wanted). I can't give him direct access because all incoming connections are firewalled by the corporate gateway. > I want to mount my home source directory on top of a FreeBSD CD and > compile as if the CD were writable. Me too. > I want to start working on a non-itar restricted crypto-fs layer. This would be cool. > I want to see a gzip layer. Two of John's students have already implemented one of these; I have the code here, but only on the condition that it not be redistributed. I like the idea of block compression better than file compression. It goes a long way towards using the character set as a compression attribute (ie: an ISO-8859-1 character set is a "compressed" ISO-10646/16 character set, assuming you use only ISO-8859-1 characters... etc.). You may wish to check with John directly re compression layer code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 14:17:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07752 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07716; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00621; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:16:07 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607302116.OAA00621@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:16:07 -0700 (MST) Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199607251559.KAA00163@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Jul 25, 96 10:59:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Terry, are you out there? > > > > Please upload your mega patches. I'm sure someone will take a look and > > maybe we can at least start with getting the locks fixed. > > > I want to consider including Terry's stuff. Even though I do filesystem > hacking from time to time, I think that we need to get agreement from > other's (on the team) on the changes. The changes have significant > architectural implications. > > At least, in certain areas, Terry is on the right track... We need to > get consensus on the changes. The last batch of changes don't fix all > of the problems, and Jeffery Hsu's stuff should be reviewed and appropriately > included also. I actually think that we are stagnating in this area a "little > bit." But again, I don't feel qualified to make wholesale changes in that > (the VFS) section of the kernel, without agreement from others... Anybody > have any ideas on this impasse? Jeffrey's mount changes are my mount code with some of the edges knocked off... he's done a good job on it. It happens to work around a couple of known problems in the Lite2 code, so he included them. The other changes are less seperable, which is why Poul has asked for a source tree copy (as in previous message: I will try for this weekend). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 14:28:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08455 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08412; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00658; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:26:47 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607302126.OAA00658@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts To: phk@critter.tfs.com (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:26:47 -0700 (MST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, michaelh@cet.co.jp, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1028.838313231@critter.tfs.com> from "Poul-Henning Kamp" at Jul 25, 96 06:47:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jeff's changes have higher priority for me than Terrys, because they > bring us closer to the codebase Kirk is hacking away on, and he has > some nice things brewing too. Yes; I was under the impression that one of the things Kirk was doing was soft updates. Matt Day already has an FFS integration of soft updates against the FreeBSD FS code, as ported to Windows 95. I dislike the idea of seperately retrofitting each FS code base (in the BSD case, it means seperate UFS chunks for FFS and LFS and ... unless Kirk is retrofitting all of the FS's. Finding out where soft updates go in a given FS is a graph reduction problem. The way Ganger and Patt solved the problem hides the graph reduction, and so is very FFS specific. I think this is a design error, but it was expedient, since you would otherwise have to consider each FS as a set of event points in an acyclic graph of event dependencies mixed in with POSIX semantics. Considering FS's as event/trigger/processing sets is not really an easy thing, given how the code is arranged. Eventually, I'd like to see the FS defined in terms of events and reactions to events. With an up-front graph, you could establish a node/callback chain when the FS is instantiated, and then do I/O in the context of event nodes. This would let you have a single engine for doing soft updates, which is referenced by all FS's, instead of having to hack the soft updates into each FS on a case-by-case basis. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 14:36:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09143 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08995; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00682; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:33:41 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607302133.OAA00682@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts To: dfr@render.com (Doug Rabson) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:33:41 -0700 (MST) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, michaelh@cet.co.jp, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Doug Rabson" at Jul 25, 96 07:42:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is Kirk going to attack some of the same issues as Terry is talking about? > To improve my own understanding of the interface, I just started writing > manpages for the VFS entry points and VOP_LOOKUP makes me feel ill :-). Join the club. 8-). > Does anyone else have any documentation on our VFS interface? "The Magic Garden Explained" comes close, ignoring the stacking aspects, and the fact that we don't have getpage/putpage. Substitute "VN_" for "VOP_". > Does anyone feel like reviewing my efforts? I have seen the pdf postings elsewhere, but won't be able to look for some time. Do you have ASCII or otherwise non-PDF versions? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 14:38:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09266 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09198; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00697; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:35:51 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607302135.OAA00697@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:35:50 -0700 (MST) Cc: gibbs@freefall.freebsd.org, dfr@render.com, phk@critter.tfs.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jul 26, 96 09:45:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >Is Kirk going to attack some of the same issues as Terry is talking about? > > >To improve my own understanding of the interface, I just started writing > > >manpages for the VFS entry points and VOP_LOOKUP makes me feel ill :-). > > > > Last I heard, Kirk was incorperating the recent work on soft metadata > > updates into the 4.4Lite2 code base. > > I also heard he was working on delayed ordered writes which might mean a > lot of changes per fs. > > Can anyone confirm the any of the above? I can confirm that USL has a patent on delayed ordered writes. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 14:49:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10528 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA10472; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA00719; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:48:55 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607302148.OAA00719@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 14:48:55 -0700 (MST) Cc: phk@critter.tfs.com, toor@dyson.iquest.net, freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jul 26, 96 10:17:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I understand that Jeff's Lite2 work needs to be incorporated before > any fs commits can be made. Yes. They are the baseline. Kirk's work is somewhat of a monkey wrench, since it will change the baseline, perhaps significantly: I don't know how he is going about the soft update integration. I exchanged some email with Ganger right after the paper came out, and he seemed reluctant to go for a generic implementation using graph reduction theory. I don't know whether to blame it on graph theory, group theory, and topology being ...ahem... rather esoteric, or that once you have an FFS that has it, you shouldn't need any other FS. 8-). > I think we're a ways off from any fs commits anyway. There's been very > little analysis on this mailing list of the direction the file systems > might be taking. Actually, there's been quite a lot of stuff on this, at least for local storage. What's been missing is distribution and replication. The "WebNFS" modification is an easy hack. As I stated on Usenet, it's pretty obvious that it's for downloading to embeded systems without local storage -- ie: set top boxes. Vendor | FS | For download of ----------------+---------------+------------------------ Microsoft | CIFS (SMB) | ActiveX (OLE) controls Sun | WebNFS (NFS) | JAVA Applets ----------------+---------------+------------------------ I don't think this is a direction we need to worry about for quite a while. More interesting is transactioning, reliability, and multifile idempotentence (Tuxedo-like capabilities for transaction interdependence). Other directions include componentization (one FS quota module, etc.), hosted metadata for interoperability (one hosting module, ala UMSDOSFS), and event notification to user space processes (ie: "file browser, the directory whose icons are presently being displayed, has changed") to get rid of polling and go more towards a user interactive model, etc.. Transient connectedness and replication are already being looked at by the Japanese "Nomads" group. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 15:12:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12380 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12371 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA29289; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:08:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 16:08:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199607302208.QAA29289@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams To: Terry Lambert Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock), freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts In-Reply-To: <199607302113.OAA00605@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199607302113.OAA00605@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ reduced to just freebsd-fs ] BTW: Sorry to hear about your back. Hopefully it'll get better, but how in the heck did you do it? Did you go skydiving and forget to open your parachute or something like that? :) > > Please upload your mega patches..... > > I will not be able to get to this until this weekend. Basically, it's > nothing more than a CVS diff on my machine, or I can upload the full > /sys directory (like Poul wanted). I can't give him direct access > because all incoming connections are firewalled by the corporate > gateway. Can you upload the entire CVS tree of /sys then? It would sure be nice to have the commit messages which explain what you've done (assuming you've done them as any good software engineer would do. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-fs Tue Jul 30 15:44:58 1996 Return-Path: owner-fs Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14761 for fs-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14756 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA00971; Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:44:23 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199607302244.PAA00971@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Union mounts and other mounts To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:44:22 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, michaelh@cet.co.jp, freebsd-fs@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199607302208.QAA29289@rocky.mt.sri.com> from "Nate Williams" at Jul 30, 96 04:08:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-fs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [ reduced to just freebsd-fs ] > > BTW: Sorry to hear about your back. Hopefully it'll get better, but how > in the heck did you do it? Did you go skydiving and forget to open your > parachute or something like that? :) No, it was real stupid. I drove into a utility trench that didn't have orange cones in front of it right when the sun was at the right angle to hide the edge of the trench, and my front wheels dropped 8 inches or so. > > > Please upload your mega patches..... > > > > I will not be able to get to this until this weekend. Basically, it's > > nothing more than a CVS diff on my machine, or I can upload the full > > /sys directory (like Poul wanted). I can't give him direct access > > because all incoming connections are firewalled by the corporate > > gateway. > > Can you upload the entire CVS tree of /sys then? It would sure be nice > to have the commit messages which explain what you've done (assuming > you've done them as any good software engineer would do. :) I don't have any local commit messages because I can't do local checkins and still get updates from the main CVS tree. I've been meaning to break them out anyway. I have a number of documents that describe what's going on where, and I'll try to find them and include them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers.