From owner-freebsd-stable Sun Jun 2 06:58:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA20014 for stable-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA20009 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 06:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA02963; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:47:02 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:46:56 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: garyr@wcs.uq.edu.au cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: CTM error(s) In-Reply-To: <199606020452.OAA02655@ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Gary Roberts wrote: >I've recently applied the same delta with no problems. Each time ctm >does an editing operation it verifies that the md5 checksum of the file >in question is correct. If you unzip the delta and have a look inside >you will see the following with respect to CVSROOT/commitlogs/sys:- I saw exactly the same thing and downloaded the delta set about three times - same error. So, to fix it up, I just zapped the entire tree, dumped a copy of the tree from the March snapshot, and used ctm to apply all the deltas since then (i.e. 1900S onwards). That seemed to work fine. It all then worked like clockwork. What could have caused the commitlog to change ? I didn't change it and no-one else uses my machine ? Any ideas ? >armed with that knowledge you will be able to apply by hand the remaining >edits from cvs-cur.2063.gz. I don't know of any way of getting ctm to Didn't feel this confident ;-0 >sync. And in future don't fool around with your CVS tree :->. But I didn't ;-) - --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMbGbVV0slw2AMOJdAQHU8gP/Qz0wmwblmv/1MRKaJFrvmsQuJ/2aglxa De/j0y9ONzntsx95bhUNhmjHVjT+c7L25y4EyzCNNQ6LSLcANX4p+6vJ/VKTT4mn vUT9qserK/jOpaVcR5CNqaJtZS8SDYDknkL9fXSs1rgJvIGn2aBKzb7OGldlIlH3 G4LT+ZmUNUc= =sf6Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-stable Sun Jun 2 08:15:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA24556 for stable-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haywire.DIALix.COM (root@haywire.DIALix.COM [192.203.228.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA24544 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news@localhost) by haywire.DIALix.COM (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA02552 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:14:37 +0800 (WST) X-Authentication-Warning: haywire.DIALix.COM: news set sender to usenet-request@haywire.dialix.com using -f Received: from GATEWAY by haywire.DIALix.COM with netnews for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (problems to: usenet@haywire.dialix.com) To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:33:25 GMT From: mark@seeware.DIALix.oz.au (Mark Hannon) Message-ID: Organization: Private FreeBSD site Subject: X-inside & -STABLE Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, I tried to install the X-Inside demo today (v1.3) but couldn't get it off the ground. Running Xsetup started the initial screen, the message about reading the configuration database started flashing and then I got a segmentation fault running Xaccel. FreeBSD-STABLE, ET4000/W32p card with 2M RAM. Anybody seen this before? Regards/mark -- +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ | Mark Hannon,| FreeBSD - Free Unix for your PC| mark@seeware.DIALix.oz.au| | Melbourne, | PGP key available by fingering | epamha@epa.ericsson.se | | Australia | seeware@melbourne.DIALix.oz.au | | +-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+ From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 05:09:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA11068 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 05:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11061 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 05:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA12495 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:50:34 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:50:34 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Lynx 2.5FM make fails Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. I'm running 2.1 stable and wanted to make the new Lynx 2.5. I haven't yet been able to implement the new vm changes (the tree being broken and all). It got the file fine, but the make failed, saying HTFTP.o : Undefined symbol '_ISSPACE' referenced from text segment HTFTP.o : More undefined symbol _ISSPACE refs follow *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 06:28:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA14367 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (College.ormond.unimelb.edu.au [203.17.189.253]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA14345 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 06:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from gavin@localhost) by gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA02201 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 23:27:50 +1000 From: Gavin Cameron Message-Id: <199606031327.XAA02201@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> Subject: Trouble making -stable To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 23:27:50 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I decided it was time to install -stable on my 2.1.0-release machine, but I get the following error in the make world. This machine was stock standard 2.1.0, it's now something in between there and -stable :-( Any suggestions? Gavin building shared c library (version 2.2) nm: bt_debug.so: no name list. tsort: cycle in data tsort: clnt_udp.so tsort: pmap_getport.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: getnetbyht.so tsort: getnetnamadr.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: gethostbyht.so tsort: gethostnamadr.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: none.so tsort: table.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: bt_split.so tsort: db.so tsort: rec_open.so tsort: rec_get.so tsort: rec_put.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: bt_open.so tsort: bt_put.so tsort: bt_split.so tsort: db.so tsort: rec_open.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: hash_bigkey.so tsort: hash.so tsort: hash_buf.so tsort: hash_page.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: hash.so tsort: hash_bigkey.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: bt_open.so tsort: bt_put.so tsort: bt_split.so tsort: db.so tsort: cycle in data tsort: bt_delete.so tsort: bt_seq.so setinvalidrune.so: Definition of symbol `_setinvalidrune' (multiply defined) rune.so: Definition of symbol `_setinvalidrune' (multiply defined) rune.so: Definition of symbol `_setrunelocale' (multiply defined) setrunelocale.so: Definition of symbol `_setrunelocale' (multiply defined) *** Error code 1 Stop. -- []-------------------------------------+--------------------------------------[] | Gavin Cameron | Ormond College | | Ph : +61 3 9344 1201 | The University of Melbourne | | Fax : +61 3 9344 1111 | Parkville, Victoria | | Email : gavin@ormond.unimelb.edu.au | Australia, 3053 | []-------------------------------------+--------------------------------------[] From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 08:55:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA25693 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ian.iafrica.com (root@ian.iafrica.com [196.31.1.15]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA25624 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ian.iafrica.com (khetan@ian.iafrica.com [196.31.1.15]) by ian.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA11701; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:52:52 +0200 (SAT) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:52:52 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: stable@freebsd.org cc: Ryan Loots Subject: Make World breakage - the saga continues Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. After getting hold of ctm 2072, my make world was going full steam ahead and then broke down when trying to install libc.so.3.0 I posted a query to this forum, and throught everything was fine. I then logged out - big mistake! I cannot get a login to my machine (I keep getting the error in ld.so - libc.so.3.0) and therefore cannot just rm -rf /usr/lib/libc.so.3.0 and then symlink libc.so.2.2 I booted into single user mode (-s), mounted /usr (mount /dev/wd1s1f and also tried mount /dev/wd1s1f /usr), and can mv other files around - it's just then when I try to mv this file (to lib.so.3.0.old so that I can symlink 2.2 back and start the make world again) it says operation not permitted. Any other solution(s) ? I'd *love* my FreeBSD back.... ;-) --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 09:28:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28175 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA28169 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id CAA20848 Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:22:32 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199606031622.CAA20848@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: Make World breakage - the saga continues To: khetan@iafrica.com (Khetan Gajjar) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 02:22:29 +1000 (EST) Cc: stable@freebsd.org, ryan@iafrica.com In-Reply-To: from "Khetan Gajjar" at Jun 3, 96 05:52:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I booted into single user mode (-s), mounted /usr (mount /dev/wd1s1f and > also tried mount /dev/wd1s1f /usr), and can mv other files around - it's > just then when I try to mv this file (to lib.so.3.0.old so that I can > symlink 2.2 back and start the make world again) it says operation not > permitted. You need to remove some especially protective flags first. Try "chflags noschg /usr/lib/libc.so.3.0" michael From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 12:24:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA10974 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA10965 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA29495; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:23:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Gavin Cameron cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Trouble making -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Jun 1996 23:27:50 +1000." <199606031327.XAA02201@gateway.ormond.unimelb.edu.au> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 12:23:13 -0700 Message-ID: <29493.833829793@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi, > > I decided it was time to install -stable on my 2.1.0-release machine, but > I get the following error in the make world. Give me another day or so - I'm just now trying to figure out how best to solve the current mess in -stable. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 12:45:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13027 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA13015 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA29597 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:43:56 -0700 (PDT) To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Does anyone have a copy of -stable from _before_ I issued my warning? Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 12:43:56 -0700 Message-ID: <29595.833831036@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk E.g. sometime on or before 12:00 Noon, the 29th of May. If you heeded my warnings about possible instability and stashed a tree for safekeeping, I want to talk to you! Getting access to this copy will allow me to more easily figure out which files I tagged into the 2.1 branch (tags aren't dated, so it's hard to easily calculate this after the fact). Basically, I'm about to back out absolutely everything I've done since that date. I've had a massive change of heart about how to approach the 2.1 merge, namely that I'm not going to merge 2.2 to 2.1 at all and should just leave -stable's userland the heck alone for 2.1.5-RELEASE. The course I was on before was a slipperly slope to madness, nothing more, and I'm just happy that I came to my senses before too much damage was done. :-) Thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 13:50:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17353 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17342 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA29957 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:49:13 -0700 (PDT) To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Tree from 5/29: Never mind, thanks! Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 13:49:13 -0700 Message-ID: <29955.833834953@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I always forget about CTM.. :-) I'm using the CTM stable bits right now to get back a tree on that date. I'll then bring in the fixes from the other folks over the last couple of days and we should be right where we would have been if I'd never done any of this. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 14:17:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18699 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ax433.mclink.it (ax433.mclink.it [192.106.166.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18692 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tirm24.vol.it by ax433.mclink.it id aa00008; 3 Jun 96 23:17 CEST Message-ID: <31B356C9.794BDF32@mclink.it> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 23:19:05 +0200 From: Marco Masotti X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: stable@freebsd.org, mc7953@mclink.it Subject: Re: Does anyone have a copy of -stable from _before_ I issued my warning? References: <29595.833831036@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > E.g. sometime on or before 12:00 Noon, the 29th of May. If you heeded > my warnings about possible instability and stashed a tree for > safekeeping, I want to talk to you! Getting access to this copy will > allow me to more easily figure out which files I tagged into the 2.1 > branch (tags aren't dated, so it's hard to easily calculate this after > the fact). Dear Jordan, problems have begun since src-2.1.0111 inclusive, eg. the last ctm patched tree to correctly compile has been the one with 0110. With 0111 the problem was an invalid option, "-c", that the symorder statement was passed to in line 125 of file /usr/src/share/mk/bsd.kmod.mk With appreciation, Marco M. From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 14:29:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19303 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA19296 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA00441; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:27:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Marco Masotti cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Does anyone have a copy of -stable from _before_ I issued my warning? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Jun 1996 23:19:05 +0200." <31B356C9.794BDF32@mclink.it> Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 14:27:59 -0700 Message-ID: <439.833837279@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > problems have begun since src-2.1.0111 inclusive, eg. the last ctm > patched tree to correctly compile has been the one with 0110. Thanks for the tip! I've got the tree up to 110 now diffing against the currently broken tree, and will clean this up in two sweeps: One to delete the RELENG_2_1_0 tags on the files I tagged in and one to apply the reverse diffs. Since I'll have to wait for a make world check build to complete before committing anything, this may not happen until late tonite. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Mon Jun 3 17:19:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA29521 for stable-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [204.214.4.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29512 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.104.22.160] by fly.HiWAAY.net; (8.7.5/1.1.8.2/21Sep95-1003PM) id TAA31855; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:18:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <29595.833831036@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:21:35 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , stable@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Does anyone have a copy of -stable from _before_ I issued my warning? Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 2:43 PM -0500 6/3/96, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >E.g. sometime on or before 12:00 Noon, the 29th of May. If you heeded >my warnings about possible instability and stashed a tree for >safekeeping, I want to talk to you! Getting access to this copy will >allow me to more easily figure out which files I tagged into the 2.1 >branch (tags aren't dated, so it's hard to easily calculate this after >the fact). Guess I'll demonstrate my ignorance and learn something: How does what you ask differ from the contents at ftp.cdrom.com:/pub/FreeBSD/Free*-stable/ctm/* ? Are we not able to build an older system while running a newer one? Couldn't you extract the names of files that changed day-by-day from the ctm contents? If it helps the last -stable ctm I applied was 0096, but the last time I did "make world" was April 18. Think I'm running the 0096 kernel. The worst part of it is that I'm behind a 14.4k modem with a dynamic IP address. -- David Kelly N4HHE, n4hhe@amsat.org, dkelly@hiwaay.net ============================================================= To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. - Thomas Edison From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 01:22:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA25682 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA25666 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA22915; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:24:09 +0300 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:24:08 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Tree from 5/29: Never mind, thanks! In-Reply-To: <29955.833834953@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I always forget about CTM.. :-) > > I'm using the CTM stable bits right now to get back a tree on that > date. I'll then bring in the fixes from the other folks over the last > couple of days and we should be right where we would have been if > I'd never done any of this. :-) > > Jordan > So there will be the userland merge after all? Sander From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 01:38:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26576 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26565 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA10269; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:36:44 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:36:38 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: michael butler cc: stable@freebsd.org, ryan@iafrica.com Subject: Re: Make World breakage - the saga continues In-Reply-To: <199606031622.CAA20848@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, michael butler wrote: >You need to remove some especially protective flags first. >Try "chflags noschg /usr/lib/libc.so.3.0" Thank you, thank you, thank you! Problem solved. - --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBMbP1m10slw2AMOJdAQFu0QP/Uih/BJl+kmQwXgMBGDp8H1GJZkBqW9eR Z+LewQiK8G197L9FsaAq6bYNJw9gVtkERJ1bBVLPQOXQOw3h0tE8x2VsJn0PtqK0 cQ6Y/Raygq6rQoH1w3NwtDorOyAxKuP+v6PCLHm8y4fx4XZOtX6iKxIc5DrODicv kppQKiYPhYw= =fsXa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 01:40:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26793 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA26780 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA10495 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:40:25 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:40:25 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar Reply-To: Khetan Gajjar To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Latest make world breakage Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. Anyone seen this : ===> libc install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 libc.a /usr/lib install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 -fschg libc.so.3.0 /usr/lib install -c -o bin -g bin -m 444 libc_pic.a /usr/lib ld.so failed: Undefined symbol "SYS_minherit" in install:/usr/lib/libc.so.3.0 *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. 6679.02 real 3806.09 user 1309.83 sys This is after the 2071 delta. It got a lot further than the last couple. Starting to look good. --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 07:40:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA16343 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA16325 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA03593; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:37:32 -0700 (PDT) To: Narvi cc: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Tree from 5/29: Never mind, thanks! In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 11:24:08 +0300." Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 07:37:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3591.833899052@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So there will be the userland merge after all? No. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 14:52:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17283 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17263 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18917 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606042151.OAA18917@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: What's wrong with this picture? Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:51:43 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On a FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE system: # # sup stable-supfile .. # cd /usr/src # make world ... -------------------------------------------------------------- Cleaning up the source tree, and rebuilding the obj tree -------------------------------------------------------------- ... ===> lib/libxpg4 make: don't know how to make cleandir. Stop This is the first "Uh-oh". Not a problem if I do some trivial editing of a Makefile, but I figure I'll go with the "do everything their way first" flow. So... # ftp ftp.freebsd.org ... ftp> cd /pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-stable/src/lib 250 CWD command successful. ftp> ls 200 PORT command successful. ... drwxrwxr-x 3 root wheel 512 Sep 4 1995 libtermcap drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 May 31 08:26 libutil drwxrwxr-x 2 root wheel 512 Sep 4 1995 liby drwxrwxr-x 5 root wheel 512 Sep 4 1995 msun 226 Transfer complete. The second "Uh-oh". Huh? There's no lib/libxpg4. What gives? ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet A suggested definition of "sin" - Trading aliveness for survival. From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 17:16:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA24530 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u60.os2bbs.com (u60.os2bbs.com [206.55.10.60]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA24524 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u60.os2bbs.com (LOCALHOST [127.0.0.1]) by u60.os2bbs.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA03346; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:12:30 -0400 Message-ID: <31B4B3F6.41C67EA6@os2bbs.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:12:30 -0400 From: Gib Winter X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's wrong with this picture? References: <199606042151.OAA18917@kachina.jetcafe.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've got the same problem and am desparate to get my machine back on "stable" ground. Thanks, Gib Dave Hayes wrote: > > On a FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE system: > > # > # sup stable-supfile > .. > # cd /usr/src > # make world > ... > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Cleaning up the source tree, and rebuilding the obj tree > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ... > ===> lib/libxpg4 > make: don't know how to make cleandir. Stop > > This is the first "Uh-oh". Not a problem if I do some trivial editing > of a Makefile, but I figure I'll go with the "do everything their way > first" flow. So... > > # ftp ftp.freebsd.org > ... > ftp> cd /pub/FreeBSD/FreeBSD-stable/src/lib > 250 CWD command successful. > ftp> ls > 200 PORT command successful. > ... > drwxrwxr-x 3 root wheel 512 Sep 4 1995 libtermcap > drwxr-xr-x 2 root wheel 512 May 31 08:26 libutil > drwxrwxr-x 2 root wheel 512 Sep 4 1995 liby > drwxrwxr-x 5 root wheel 512 Sep 4 1995 msun > 226 Transfer complete. > > The second "Uh-oh". Huh? There's no lib/libxpg4. What gives? > ------ > Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org > Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet > > A suggested definition of "sin" - Trading aliveness for survival. From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 17:23:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA24793 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA24787; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id UAA08605; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:23:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:23:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: questions@freebsd.org cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Gravis Ultrasound support... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi... I know its supported, I just can't get it to compile under -stable: loading kernel gus_vol.o: Undefined symbol `_gus_wave_volume' referenced from text segment gus_vol.o: Undefined symbol `_gus_wave_volume' referenced from text segment gus_vol.o: Undefined symbol `_gus_wave_volume' referenced from text segment ioconf.o: Undefined symbol `_gusdriver' referenced from data segment ioconf.o: Undefined symbol `_gusintr' referenced from data segment All the files seem to be included: -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 414 Jun 4 20:13 gus_wave.o -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 1182 Jun 4 20:13 gus_vol.o -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 414 Jun 4 20:13 gus_midi.o -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 414 Jun 4 20:13 gus_card.o -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 18 Jun 4 19:53 gusxvi.h -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 15 Jun 4 19:53 gus.h Is there something I need to define in my config file other then: device gus0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 12 drq 1 vector gusintr To get it to compile? I've looked through LINT for any clue as to what I'm missing, but nothing jumps out at me...and there doesn't seem to be anything in the documentation on it ;( Clues/pointers? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 17:36:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA25320 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA25299; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA20407; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:36:01 -0600 Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:36:01 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606050036.SAA20407@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Marc G. Fournier" Cc: questions@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gravis Ultrasound support... In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I know its supported, I just can't get it to compile under > -stable: > Is there something I need to define in my config file other then: > > device gus0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 12 drq 1 vector gusintr How about the most important one: controller snd0 Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 17:55:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA26337 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA26330; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id UAA10497; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:55:25 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Nate Williams cc: questions@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Gravis Ultrasound support... In-Reply-To: <199606050036.SAA20407@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > I know its supported, I just can't get it to compile under > > -stable: > > > Is there something I need to define in my config file other then: > > > > device gus0 at isa? port 0x220 irq 12 drq 1 vector gusintr > > How about the most important one: > controller snd0 > After I posted this, I searched through files.i386 again and found that I needed snd to get soundcard.c included :( Now to see if this thing actually works... thanks... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 18:44:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA00896 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA00886 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA06870; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:42:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's wrong with this picture? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:51:43 PDT." <199606042151.OAA18917@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:42:12 -0700 Message-ID: <6867.833938932@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On a FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE system: > > # > # sup stable-supfile > .. > # cd /usr/src > # make world > [failure elided] Don't worry about it - this was all cleaned up recently and should be committing shortly. Basically, -stablefolk, I got the mega-uncommit ready to go which would return -stable to the idyllic days before I tried this merge and I set it to committing when I went to bed. However, when I woke up, I saw that it had been spinning for 10 hours (I was tired :-) on a repository lock from some earlier failed CVS op and failed to go through. Whoops. Sorry, some things are beyond my control! :-) I'm just re-syncing my 2.1 tree since people have committed to it in the interim (!@#^$%* CVS and its bogus non-conflict resolution code!) and will start the commit again as soon as it finishes. Sorry about the delay, folks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 18:54:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01450 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01442 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA06925; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Gib Winter cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What's wrong with this picture? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:12:30 EDT." <31B4B3F6.41C67EA6@os2bbs.com> Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:49:29 -0700 Message-ID: <6923.833939369@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've got the same problem and am desparate to get my machine back on > "stable" ground. The "restabilizing commit" is going in now.. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Tue Jun 4 20:42:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19637 for stable-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solar.os.com (root@solar.os.com [199.232.136.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA19621 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jupiter (jupiter.os.com [199.232.136.66]) by solar.os.com (8.7/8.7.0) with SMTP id XAA24110 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:51:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199606050351.XAA24110@solar.os.com> X-Sender: craigs@solar X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:39:32 -0400 To: stable@freebsd.org From: craigs@os.com (Craig Shrimpton) Subject: SUP fails on make world Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Folks, I'm trying to keep my 2.1.0 sources up to date using SUP. I have no problem getting the files, I just can't seem to get them to compile. Make world has failed every time I've tried to run it (4 different source changes). Each time it's some various error like an undefined function or it can't cd to a certain directory. I'm using the command sup -v /usr/share/examples/sup/stable-supfile to get the sources. Should I be doing something else? Also, can the constant failure of "make world" screw up my system in any way? Thanks, Craig =================================================================== Orbit Internet Email: craigs@os.com 400 Grove Street Phone: (508) 753-8776 Worcester, MA 01605 http://www.os.com/ From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 00:51:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22279 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22270 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA08357; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:49:34 -0700 (PDT) To: craigs@os.com (Craig Shrimpton) cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SUP fails on make world In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:39:32 EDT." <199606050351.XAA24110@solar.os.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 00:49:34 -0700 Message-ID: <8355.833960974@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You MUST subscribe to this list if you're going to sup -stable! If you're not willing to subscribe, then stop supping - it's that simple! I've already described the state of affairs in -stable and why they're breaking about 5 times in the last 3 days. :-( Jordan > Folks, > > I'm trying to keep my 2.1.0 sources up to date using SUP. I have no problem > getting the files, I just can't seem to get them to compile. Make world has > failed every time I've tried to run it (4 different source changes). Each > time it's some various error like an undefined function or it can't cd to a > certain directory. I'm using the command sup -v > /usr/share/examples/sup/stable-supfile to get the sources. Should I be > doing something else? Also, can the constant failure of "make world" screw > up my system in any way? > > Thanks, > > Craig > > =================================================================== > Orbit Internet Email: craigs@os.com > 400 Grove Street Phone: (508) 753-8776 > Worcester, MA 01605 http://www.os.com/ > From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 07:01:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA02510 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA02484 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA14379 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:29:25 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:29:23 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: re-make of kernel error(s) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. I just wanted to know if this was part of the tree / source breakage after the aborted vm implementation(s) : (I just applied cvs-cur.2078.gz) cc -c -O -W -Wreturn-type -Wcomment -Wredundant-decls -Wimplicit -nostdinc -I. -I../.. -I../../sys -I../../../include -DKHETAN -DI486_CPU -DXSERVER -DSYSVMSG -DSYSVSEM -DSYSVSHM -DUSER_LDT -DCOMPAT_LINUX -DCOMPAT_IBCS2 -DSPX_HACK -DMAXMEM=32768 -DUCONSOLE -DBOUNCE_BUFFERS -DSCSI_DELAY=1 -DCOMPAT_43 -DPROCFS -DCD9660 -DMSDOSFS -DNFS -DFFS -DINET -DKERNEL -Di386 -DLOAD_ADDRESS=0xF0100000 ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c: In function `kern_sysctl': ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c:313: `KERN_SOMAXCONN' undeclared (first use this function) ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c:313: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c:313: for each function it appears in.) ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c:315: `KERN_MAXSOCKBUF' undeclared (first use this function) ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c:320: `KERN_PS_STRINGS' undeclared (first use this function) ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c:322: `KERN_USRSTACK' undeclared (first use this function) ../../kern/kern_sysctl.c:324: `KERN_SOCKBUF_WASTE' undeclared (first use this function) *** Error code 1 Stop. [chain] /usr/src/sys/compile/KHETAN# --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 07:02:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA02551 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA02527 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA28837 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:48:28 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:48:27 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: world breakage Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. After getting the latest cvs-cur delta (2078) and applying with ctm, I tried a make world, and got cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall/../../bin/ls/stat_flags.c cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall/xinstall.c In file included from /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall/xinstall.c:66: /usr/include/ctype.h:121: warning: parameter names (without types) in function declaration /usr/include/ctype.h:122: parse error before `___tolower' /usr/include/ctype.h:122: warning: parameter names (without types) in function declaration /usr/include/ctype.h:122: warning: data definition has no type or storage class /usr/include/ctype.h:123: parse error before `___toupper' /usr/include/ctype.h:123: warning: parameter names (without types) in function declaration /usr/include/ctype.h:123: warning: data definition has no type or storage class /usr/include/ctype.h:142: parse error before `_c' /usr/include/ctype.h: In function `__istype': /usr/include/ctype.h:144: `_c' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/ctype.h:144: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once /usr/include/ctype.h:144: for each function it appears in.) /usr/include/ctype.h:144: `_f' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/ctype.h: At top level: /usr/include/ctype.h:149: parse error before `_c' /usr/include/ctype.h: In function `__isctype': /usr/include/ctype.h:151: `_c' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/ctype.h:152: `_f' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/ctype.h: At top level: /usr/include/ctype.h:156: parse error before `__toupper' /usr/include/ctype.h:156: parse error before `_c' /usr/include/ctype.h: In function `__toupper': /usr/include/ctype.h:158: `_c' undeclared (first use this function) /usr/include/ctype.h: At top level: /usr/include/ctype.h:163: parse error before `__tolower' /usr/include/ctype.h:163: parse error before `_c' /usr/include/ctype.h: In function `__tolower': /usr/include/ctype.h:165: `_c' undeclared (first use this function) *** Error code 1 Stop. *** Error code 1 Stop. 1123.31 real 284.94 user 444.19 sys [chain] /usr/src# Is this related to the tree source breakage ? --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 08:24:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09148 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from po2.andrew.cmu.edu (PO2.ANDREW.CMU.EDU [128.2.10.102]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA09131 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from postman@localhost) by po2.andrew.cmu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA10800 for stable@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:24:03 -0400 Received: via switchmail; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix19.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from unix19.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mms.4.60.Jan.26.1995.18.43.47.sun4c.411.EzMail.2.0.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.unix19.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c.411 via MS.5.6.unix19.andrew.cmu.edu.sun4c_411; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0lhOO6u00YUvA9inUA@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:23:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Matthew Jason White To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: SUP fails on make world In-Reply-To: <8355.833960974@time.cdrom.com> References: <8355.833960974@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So, is the -stable tree fixed? If so, when was it fixed (wondering whether my auto-sup at 6am got something useful)? When can we expect the changes to propagate to the other sup servers? Wow, I'm full of questions this morning. -Matt ----- Matt White Email: mwhite+@cmu.edu http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/mwhite/www/ From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 09:57:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14966 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14951 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA22206; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:57:20 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:57:20 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606051657.KAA22206@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Mega-Commit cleanups Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Before I go and start cleaning things up that I'm pretty sure are bugs I'd like to hear what exactly is that we are supposed to do. I just went through the etc files, and there are only a couple minor problems. 1) newsyslog is used, but it's not tagged into -stable 2) newsyslog isn't enabled in /etc/crontab Other than that, things look pretty good for /etc. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 12:33:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA25738 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA25729 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA26263; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:31:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Khetan Gajjar cc: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: world breakage In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 05 Jun 1996 15:48:27 +0200." Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 12:31:22 -0700 Message-ID: <26261.834003082@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > After getting the latest cvs-cur delta (2078) and applying with ctm, > I tried a make world, and got > > cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall/../../bin/ls/stat_flags.c > cc -O -c /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall/xinstall.c > In file included from /usr/src/usr.bin/xinstall/xinstall.c:66: > /usr/include/ctype.h:121: warning: parameter names (without types) in > function declaration > /usr/include/ctype.h:122: parse error before `___tolower' You still have breakage from a previous build. Try going to to the top of /usr/src and doing a `make includes'. You may have other problems as well from other bogus headers installed over the last couple of days. There's really no solution other than to simply fix these as they come up and continue. My 3rd test box finished its make world with the bits I imported, so I think those are fine now (modulo a problem for *kernels*, which is being worked on but is not a make world issue). Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 12:34:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA25983 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA25971 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA26275; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 12:32:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Khetan Gajjar cc: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: re-make of kernel error(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 05 Jun 1996 15:29:23 +0200." Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 12:32:23 -0700 Message-ID: <26273.834003143@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hi. > > I just wanted to know if this was part of the tree / source > breakage after the aborted vm implementation(s) : > > (I just applied cvs-cur.2078.gz) Now you found the kernel problem I was alluding to in my last message.. :-) I hope that this will be solved in a day or so - it's more complex since it's an interaction between my back-out and someone else's changes. That someone has been contacted for help.. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 13:17:00 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29375 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29362 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA26544; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 14:08:34 MDT." <199606052008.OAA23006@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 13:15:30 -0700 Message-ID: <26542.834005730@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > OK. Do you want to bring in 'newsyslog(8)' into -stable, or roll back > the changes which require them? Sigh.. I guess we'd better roll it back! Sorry, I was sort of flailing towards the end there.. I'm still seeing diffs in my dreams.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 13:17:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29421 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29414 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23056; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:17:29 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:17:29 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606052017.OAA23056@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: etc/kerberosIV needed Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Does eBones use this? From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 13:21:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29869 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29850 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA14672 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:10:04 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23006; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:08:34 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:08:34 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606052008.OAA23006@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <26451.834004904@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606051657.KAA22206@rocky.sri.MT.net> <26451.834004904@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Before I go and start cleaning things up that I'm pretty sure are bugs > > I'd like to hear what exactly is that we are supposed to do. > > Well, I tried to upgrade the really old and musty /usr/src/etc bits in > -stable when I did my 3rd megacommit. I felt "fairly" safe with this > section of the source, so I decided to not roll that part of my > changes all the way back (along with calendar and colldef). If there > are dangling references, please feel free! OK. Do you want to bring in 'newsyslog(8)' into -stable, or roll back the changes which require them? Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 13:21:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA29872 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA29853 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA14624 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:08:55 -0700 Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id NAA03245 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA26453; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:01:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 10:57:20 MDT." <199606051657.KAA22206@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 13:01:44 -0700 Message-ID: <26451.834004904@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Before I go and start cleaning things up that I'm pretty sure are bugs > I'd like to hear what exactly is that we are supposed to do. Well, I tried to upgrade the really old and musty /usr/src/etc bits in -stable when I did my 3rd megacommit. I felt "fairly" safe with this section of the source, so I decided to not roll that part of my changes all the way back (along with calendar and colldef). If there are dangling references, please feel free! Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 13:30:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01135 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01119 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23095; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:30:33 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:30:33 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606052030.OAA23095@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <26542.834005730@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606052008.OAA23006@rocky.sri.MT.net> <26542.834005730@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > OK. Do you want to bring in 'newsyslog(8)' into -stable, or roll back > > the changes which require them? > > Sigh.. I guess we'd better roll it back! Sorry, I was sort of flailing > towards the end there.. I'm still seeing diffs in my dreams.. :-) Those are called nightmares, and I *think* I've got sys and etc working again. However, I'm not sure what exactly netiso is supposed to look like, so for now I'm leaving it alone. Unfortunately, I don't have the BW to download the CTM files to re-create the CVS repository prior to 5-29, so if you've done that could you figure out if anything needs to be done there? Thanks! Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 13:45:13 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02874 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02820 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA11952; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:43:38 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:43:38 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: world breakage In-Reply-To: <26261.834003082@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >You still have breakage from a previous build. Try going to >to the top of /usr/src and doing a `make includes'. Apologies. I didn't know about this. *Kiss feet of saviour type grovelling* ;-) >You may have other problems as well from other bogus headers installed >over the last couple of days. There's really no solution other than Cool. --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 13:53:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03905 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (root@chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03779 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 13:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA12030; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:22 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:44:22 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: re-make of kernel error(s) In-Reply-To: <26273.834003143@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Now you found the kernel problem I was alluding to in my last message.. :-) Aha! >I hope that this will be solved in a day or so - it's more complex >since it's an interaction between my back-out and someone else's >changes. That someone has been contacted for help.. :) Cool - no rush. Keep up the excellent work! --- Khetan Gajjar Visit at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 15:06:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09569 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09562 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dave@localhost) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01130 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:06:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Hayes Message-Id: <199606052206.PAA01130@kachina.jetcafe.org> To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: FYI - more breakage on stable Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Sup finished just now, 15:00 PM PDT 6/5/96) Here's more breakage that I found. Doing a "make clean" in /usr/src reveals the following: ===> gnu/usr.bin/groff/devX100 "/usr/share/mk/bsd.man.mk", line 95: Inconsistent operator for maninstall Fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue If you don't want me to keep posting these, say so. ---- Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet Show me a person who really knows what 'good' is, and I will show you that the person almost never uses the word. From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 15:07:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09628 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (root@cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.2.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09619 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA26623; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:06:49 -0300 (EST) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199606052206.TAA26623@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:06:49 -0300 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606052008.OAA23006@rocky.sri.MT.net> from Nate Williams at "Jun 5, 96 02:08:34 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL14 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Nate Williams) // OK. Do you want to bring in 'newsyslog(8)' into -stable, or roll back // the changes which require them? May you please explain me what's the problem with newsyslog ? I'm using 2.1.0R and brought in the newsyslog from -current. It's working perfectly for my needs. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 15:09:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09795 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA09789 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA23546; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:09:48 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:09:48 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606052209.QAA23546@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), jkh@time.cdrom.com, stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <199606052206.TAA26623@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> References: <199606052008.OAA23006@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606052206.TAA26623@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > // OK. Do you want to bring in 'newsyslog(8)' into -stable, or roll back > // the changes which require them? > > May you please explain me what's the problem with newsyslog ? I'm > using 2.1.0R and brought in the newsyslog from -current. It's working > perfectly for my needs. Because it's by definition 'new' software that's un-necessary. It *could* (doubtful) have some bug in it or security flaw that causes the system to be less -stable, so it stays out of stable until someone is willing to bring it in and stand in the line of fire. I'm not willing to do that, but if I got Jordan's permission I wouldn't have been responsible for anything bad that occurred because of it. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 15:21:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10278 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10273 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA23619; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:20:50 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:20:50 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606052220.QAA23619@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Dave Hayes Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI - more breakage on stable In-Reply-To: <199606052206.PAA01130@kachina.jetcafe.org> References: <199606052206.PAA01130@kachina.jetcafe.org> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > (Sup finished just now, 15:00 PM PDT 6/5/96) > > Here's more breakage that I found. Doing a "make clean" in /usr/src > reveals the following: > > ===> gnu/usr.bin/groff/devX100 > "/usr/share/mk/bsd.man.mk", line 95: Inconsistent operator for maninstall > Fatal errors encountered -- cannot continue > > If you don't want me to keep posting these, say so. This should be working now. Since the tree was so broken, you need to do a 'make world' just to re-install all of the necessary files such as the redone 'mk' files, include files, etc... I've been going through what I consider to be *critical* fixes in the tree to make sure they are working, and although I realize that src/secure and src/eBones are *really* broken, most everything else should be working now. I really didn't fix any bugs as much as reverted the files to their pre-'mega-commit' state to avoid any possible problems from mis-matches. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 15:24:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10430 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10422 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA27405; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:22:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:06:49 -0300." <199606052206.TAA26623@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:22:20 -0700 Message-ID: <27403.834013340@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > May you please explain me what's the problem with newsyslog ? I'm > using 2.1.0R and brought in the newsyslog from -current. It's working > perfectly for my needs. Nothing necessarily wrong with it, we're just "rolling back" and trying to keep skew to a minimum. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 15:31:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11007 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11002 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA27441; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:29:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Dave Hayes cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FYI - more breakage on stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:06:32 PDT." <199606052206.PAA01130@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:29:46 -0700 Message-ID: <27439.834013786@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > (Sup finished just now, 15:00 PM PDT 6/5/96) > > Here's more breakage that I found. Doing a "make clean" in /usr/src > reveals the following: Artifact of an earlier failed build - do a `make mk' in /usr/src. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 16:30:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16811 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (root@cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.2.31]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16797 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA27155; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:29:56 -0300 (EST) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199606052329.UAA27155@mailhost.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups To: jonny@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (Joao Carlos Mendes Luis) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:29:56 -0300 (EST) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606052209.QAA23546@rocky.sri.MT.net> from Nate Williams at "Jun 5, 96 04:09:48 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL14 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Nate Williams) // > // OK. Do you want to bring in 'newsyslog(8)' into -stable, or roll back // > // the changes which require them? // > // > May you please explain me what's the problem with newsyslog ? I'm // > using 2.1.0R and brought in the newsyslog from -current. It's working // > perfectly for my needs. // // Because it's by definition 'new' software that's un-necessary. It Not so unnecessary. I prefer a central configuration for log file rotating, based not only on date/time, but also on size, than using crontab script files to do this manually. NetBSD has been using it at least since version 1.0 and I have never heard of any problem. Before integrating the sources from current I checked the differences in source from the NetBSD version and it's essencially the same. // *could* (doubtful) have some bug in it or security flaw that causes the Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I cannot see what's dangerous in newsyslog. // system to be less -stable, so it stays out of stable until someone is // willing to bring it in and stand in the line of fire. // // I'm not willing to do that, but if I got Jordan's permission I wouldn't // have been responsible for anything bad that occurred because of it. :) Well, this is a problem. I'm not (yet) in the position to assume such responsibility... // Nate Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 ( Job ) jonny@cisi.coppe.ufrj.br Network Manager UFRJ/COPPE/CISI Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 18:40:01 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA23135 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ennui.ops.best.com (ennui.ops.best.com [205.149.163.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23094 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rone@localhost) by ennui.ops.best.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA13939 for stable@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:40:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199606060140.SAA13939@ennui.ops.best.com> Subject: make world breaks (of course) To: stable@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:40:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ron Echeverri" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ===> secure make: don't know how to make cleandir. Stop The last time this happened, i stole the Makefile from -current/src/secure/. I'm not sure that's what i want to do, now. I had previously, according to the instructions i was given by the maintainer of sup5, renamed my previous /usr/src, and then supped the stable source with the supfile found at sup5.freebsd.org:/pub/supfiles/stable-supfile (i uncommented eBones and secure). Then i cded to /usr/src and typed make world |& tee make.out If there's anything else i should mention, please ask. thanks rone -- Ron Echeverri Best Internet Technical Support rone@best.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Have you hugged your baseball bat today? From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 19:42:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA26338 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ennui.ops.best.com (ennui.ops.best.com [205.149.163.86]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA26329 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rone@localhost) by ennui.ops.best.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA29867 for stable@freebsd.org; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:43:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199606060243.TAA29867@ennui.ops.best.com> Subject: disregard previous message To: stable@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Ron Echeverri" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What i've done now is - changed sup5.freebsd.org to sup.freebsd.org - commented out src-secure and src-eBones I'm emptying out /usr/src and i will sup again and i will make world again. And if it breaks, i'll mail back again ;) rone -- Ron Echeverri Best Internet Technical Support rone@best.net %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Have you hugged your baseball bat today? From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 21:21:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA01871 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA01858; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA24403; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:21:36 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:21:36 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606060421.WAA24403@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Status of -stable Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I thought Jordan was going to post something, but I suspect he passed out from stress and lack of sleep, so I'll attempt to recap what the status is, and give a summary of what happened. I *think* everything should be working again (including src/eBones and src/secure) as it was before the mega-commit episode, but you may need to wait about 24 hours for the changes to get propogated to you via the different distribution channels. In order to get things working correctly you *must* do a make world if you do any significant builds in the last 2 weeks. With the library/make/etc.. changes that are now backed out, the tree is significantly different from what it was 36 hours ago. Note, *IF* you ended up with libc.so.3.0 built on your system, you are in a a bit of a sticky situation. There is no longer version 3.0 of the library, as it's been reverted back to the 2.2 version. However, *IF* you have this shlib on your system, you can't delete it because all of your binaries have been linked against it, and if you don't delete it none of the binaries will link against the older version. So, my advice to you is to go into single user-mode, delete the 3.0 libary, and then try to bootstrap yourself with a 'make world', and restore any binaries that give error messages with the versions from 2.1R. Or, you could take the easy route and re-install the binaries from 2.1R and then do a make world, which should bring you up to -stable in a hurry. Sorry about the breakage, and normally this sort of thing wouldn't have happened in stable but it's getting close to release time and the release engineer wanted to get everything in that he could. As with most projects, it turned out to be *much* more difficult than originally anticipated, so rather than forge ahead with a tree that was slightly broken for a couple weeks it was decided to back out everything. The hard part comes in that changes were being made during the time the userland merge started and the time it was decided it was too much hassle. So, backing things up wasn't too easy, and unfortunately CVS didn't make it any easier due to some mis-features that *should* be fixed. As for what happened with the secure bits, it turns out that CTM doesn't send out any of the 'non-exportable' bits (which happens to be src/eBones and src/secure), so when backing out the changes using code restored via CTM it ended up wiping out the bits from stable. Luckily, John Polstra had a backup copy of the CVS bits from May 21 which was restored, and there was only one commit made since that time which was added back into the tree, so things should be *exactly* the same shape as it was before the mega-commits. Other than that, I backed out a couple of commits that happened in the kernel sources that reverted out some kernel changes accidentally, but I *think* those were the only bad changes. I reviewed almost all of the include file changes, and some of the library changes and they appear to be fine, but if any of you see some breakage let us know, or if you think something is the wrong version please pipe up. [ But please wait until *after* the bits have settled down, or you are *SURE* that you have the most current bits from this afternoon. ] Anyway, I think -stable is now stable once again. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Wed Jun 5 23:48:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA07066 for stable-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:48:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA07061; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA29478; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:46:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jun 1996 22:21:36 MDT." <199606060421.WAA24403@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 23:46:46 -0700 Message-ID: <29476.834043606@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Anyway, I think -stable is now stable once again. Thanks for posting the summary, Nate - I did indeed fall asleep! Since Nate's already said pretty much everything I would have, let me just add a brief post-mortem on what I've learned from all of this: 1. Merging in CVS when you have many changes is hard. CVS was not designed with that kind of branch support in mind. 2. I'll never try something like that again. :-) Since we can't use CVS to maintain long-term branches, we have to stop doing that. With the next release of 2.1-stable (which will be numbered "2.1.5") the 2.1-stable branch will be dead. We will not resurrect another -stable branch in its place, as previously planned, and all development will take place in -current as it did before. We may do short term branch development leading up to each new release, but nothing like the 15 month run of the 2.1-stable branch! This has simply been a nightmare and -stable has, at most, one or two more months to live. In the short-to-medium term we'll probably go back to our old model of freezing 2.2 periodically and trying to get it released. Should we ever go to another source manager who's initials aren't C-V-S, we can perhaps think about multi-branch support again. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 00:13:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA07797 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NS.Contrib.Com (NS.Contrib.Com [194.77.12.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07733; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from src@localhost) by NS.Contrib.Com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA08419; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:10:32 +0200 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:10:32 +0200 From: Heiko Blume Message-Id: <199606060710.JAA08419@NS.Contrib.Com> To: nate@sri.MT.net CC: stable@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199606060421.WAA24403@rocky.sri.MT.net> (message from Nate Williams on Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:21:36 -0600) Subject: Re: Status of -stable Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk hello, just a hint about steppig down from libc 3.0 with less painful downtime . i just moved the lib to a non-standard directory, and added a temporary LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the rc scripts, that includes that directory. after a reboot, everything runs fine, and you can unsetenv LD_LIBRARY_PATH in your shell and make world. then change back the rc script, reboot, done. rgds hb From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 00:53:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA09145 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09127; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA08776; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:49:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: <29476.834043606@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Since we can't use CVS to maintain long-term branches, we have to > stop doing that. With the next release of 2.1-stable (which will be > numbered "2.1.5") the 2.1-stable branch will be dead. We will not > resurrect another -stable branch in its place, as previously planned, > and all development will take place in -current as it did before. We > may do short term branch development leading up to each new release, > but nothing like the 15 month run of the 2.1-stable branch! This has > simply been a nightmare and -stable has, at most, one or two more > months to live. Well, Hmmm I LIKED the -stable tree. release with bug fixes. Im gonna cry when you murder the poor thing. -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 01:13:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA09659 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA09654; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA29739; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:10:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Heiko Blume cc: nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:10:32 +0200." <199606060710.JAA08419@NS.Contrib.Com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 01:10:03 -0700 Message-ID: <29737.834048603@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > i just moved the lib to a non-standard directory, > and added a temporary LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the > rc scripts, that includes that directory. Very cute idea, thanks! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 01:19:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA09909 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA09902; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA29758; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 01:17:07 -0700 (PDT) To: Chris Watson cc: Nate Williams , stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 03:49:17 EDT." Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 01:17:07 -0700 Message-ID: <29756.834049027@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, Hmmm I LIKED the -stable tree. No question. If you don't actually have to be the one maintaining it, it's great! :-) > release with bug fixes. > Im gonna cry when you murder the poor thing. People have been suggesting that we resurrect "the patch kit" and I really don't know what to say about that. If someone else were to do the actual grunt work, sure, I guess I could see it working. The group at large would certainly be more cooperative partners that Jolitz ever was :-). Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 02:05:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA12266 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (acc0.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.132]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA12244 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from office.elvisti.kiev.ua (office.elvisti.kiev.ua [193.125.28.129]) by uu.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11939; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:09:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (from stesin@localhost) by office.elvisti.kiev.ua (8.6.12/8.ElVisti) id MAA08808; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:09:04 +0300 From: "Andrew V. Stesin" Message-Id: <199606060909.MAA08808@office.elvisti.kiev.ua> Subject: Re: Status of -stable To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:09:04 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <29476.834043606@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 5, 96 11:46:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha5] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk # Since we can't use CVS to maintain long-term branches, we have to # stop doing that. With the next release of 2.1-stable (which will be # numbered "2.1.5") the 2.1-stable branch will be dead. Hurraaayyy!!! :-) # We will not # resurrect another -stable branch in its place, as previously planned, # and all development will take place in -current as it did before. We # may do short term branch development leading up to each new release, # but nothing like the 15 month run of the 2.1-stable branch! This has # simply been a nightmare and -stable has, at most, one or two more # months to live. # # In the short-to-medium term we'll probably go back to our old model of # freezing 2.2 periodically and trying to get it released. Or will it be a short-term "release" branch in CVS? -- With best regards -- Andrew Stesin. +380 (44) 2760188 +380 (44) 2713457 +380 (44) 2713560 "You may delegate authority, but not responsibility." Frank's Management Rule #1. From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 03:00:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA14477 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA14472 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from falcon.tioga.com (root@falcon.tioga.com [205.146.65.5]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id DAA20235 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:00:11 -0700 Received: (from tbalfe@localhost) by falcon.tioga.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id FAA00235; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:58:28 GMT Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:58:28 +0000 () From: Thomas J Balfe To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Stable Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I will tell my grand kids one day about -stable. My granddad had stories about going up the hill both ways to school, and I'll have my stories about -stable, circa 1996. See you guys on -release! ======================================================================== Thomas J Balfe tbalfe@tioga.com President http://www.tioga.com/ Tioga Communications, Inc 814-867-4770 ======================================================================== "It is well established that the loss of First Amendment freedoms, for even minimal periods of time, unquestionably constitutes irreparable injury." Hohe v. Casey, 868 F. 2d 69, at p. 72, 73 (3d Cir. 1989) From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 04:56:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA20835 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA20828 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRdff-000QZvC; Thu, 6 Jun 96 13:56 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA02909; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:51:19 +0200 Message-Id: <199606061151.NAA02909@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:51:19 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users) In-Reply-To: <26451.834004904@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 5, 96 01:01:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > >> Before I go and start cleaning things up that I'm pretty sure are bugs >> I'd like to hear what exactly is that we are supposed to do. > > Well, I tried to upgrade the really old and musty /usr/src/etc bits in > -stable when I did my 3rd megacommit. I felt "fairly" safe with this > section of the source, so I decided to not roll that part of my > changes all the way back (along with calendar and colldef). If there > are dangling references, please feel free! I'm still having a lot of trouble just getting the *(&*(& to compile. The way I see it, a lot of the CVS files have an incorrect tag for RELENG_2_1_0. For example, this is /usr/src/lib/libc/net/Makefile.inc: + RCS file: RCS/Makefile.inc,v + Working file: Makefile.inc + head: 1.14 + branch: + locks: strict + access list: + symbolic names: + RELENG_2_1_0_RELEASE: 1.7 + RELENG_2_1_0: 1.7.0.4 + RELENG_2_1_0_BP: 1.7 + RELENG_2_0_5_RELEASE: 1.7 + RELENG_2_0_5: 1.7.0.2 + RELENG_2_0_5_BP: 1.7 + RELENG_2_0_5_ALPHA: 1.7 + RELEASE_2_0: 1.5 + BETA_2_0: 1.5 + ALPHA_2_0: 1.5.0.2 + after_bind_commit: 1.3 + before_new_bind: 1.2 + bsd_44_lite: 1.1.1.1 + CSRG: 1.1.1 + ... skipping + revision 1.1.1.1 + date: 1994/05/27 04:57:08; author: rgrimes; state: Exp; lines: +0 -0 + BSD 4.4 Lite Lib Sources + ---------------------------- + revision 1.7.4.2 + date: 1996/06/05 02:48:18; author: jkh; state: Exp; lines: +6 -10 + This 3rd mega-commit should hopefully bring us back to where we were. + I can get it to `make world' succesfully, anyway! + ---------------------------- + revision 1.7.4.1 + date: 1996/06/03 05:07:56; author: jkh; state: Exp; lines: +10 -6 + Phase 2 of merge - also fix things broken in phase 1. + Watch out for falling rock until phase 3 is over! + + libc completely merged except for phkmalloc & rfork (don't know if David + wants that). + + Some include files in sys/ had to be updated in order to bring in libc. + ---------------------------- + ============================================================================= + (END) The way I read this, RELENG_2_1_0 should be revision 1.7.0.4, but there *is* no 1.7.0.4. On the other hand, your commint information suggests that it should be 1.7.4.2. Am I doing something wrong here, is something getting screwed up in transmission, or is this a bug? I'm currently (for the fourth solid day in a row) starting again. This time I'll check out the complete source tree, but I can't see how this can work. Greg From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 07:05:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA00274 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watson.grauel.com (watson.grauel.com [199.233.104.36]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA00260; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparcmill.grauel.com (sparcmill.grauel.com [199.233.104.34]) by watson.grauel.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10346; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:13:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by sparcmill.grauel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA15831; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:04:19 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:04:19 -0500 From: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Message-Id: <199606061404.JAA15831@sparcmill.grauel.com> To: Nate Williams Cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: <199606060421.WAA24403@rocky.sri.MT.net> References: <199606060421.WAA24403@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: > I thought Jordan was going to post something, but I suspect he passed > out from stress and lack of sleep, so I'll attempt to recap what the > status is, and give a summary of what happened. > > I *think* everything should be working again (including src/eBones and > src/secure) as it was before the mega-commit episode, but you may need > to wait about 24 hours for the changes to get propogated to you via the > different distribution channels. > ..... > > [ But please wait until *after* the bits have settled down, or you are > *SURE* that you have the most current bits from this afternoon. ] > > Anyway, I think -stable is now stable once again. > > > > Nate > Assuming that -rw-r--r-- 1 1 wheel 104552 Jun 5 15:31 src-2.1.0114.gz from FreeBSD-stable/ctm on freebsd.org represents the most current bits (if it doesn't, please ignore the rest of this message :-), I still have a problem. I first ran "rm -rf /usr/src", then used the "install.sh" script from the 2.1 CD to reload everything. I then used ctm to apply all of the patches since src-2.1.0015C.gz (I've been saving them as I get them) -- no problems. "make world" fails in libF77: "don't know how to make F77_aloc.c". TIA... -- Rich Kuhns rjk@grauel.com PO Box 6249 Tel: (317)477-6000 x319 100 Sawmill Road Lafayette, IN 47903 From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 07:11:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01948 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA01943 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.34]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA21236 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:10:57 -0700 Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16750; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:08:52 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu: jfieber owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:08:51 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber X-Sender: jfieber@Fieber-John.campusview.indiana.edu To: Nate Williams cc: stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: etc/kerberosIV needed In-Reply-To: <199606052017.OAA23056@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Does eBones use this? It does on my system... -john == jfieber@indiana.edu =========================================== == http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber ================ From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 07:25:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA04557 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA04552 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA07055; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606061425.HAA07055@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users) Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:51:19 +0200." <199606061151.NAA02909@allegro.lemis.de> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:25:10 -0700 Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I'm still having a lot of trouble just getting the *(&*(& to compile. >The way I see it, a lot of the CVS files have an incorrect tag for >RELENG_2_1_0. For example, this is ... >+ RELENG_2_1_0: 1.7.0.4 ... >+ ---------------------------- >+ revision 1.7.4.2 >+ date: 1996/06/05 02:48:18; author: jkh; state: Exp; lines: +6 -10 ... >The way I read this, RELENG_2_1_0 should be revision 1.7.0.4, but >there *is* no 1.7.0.4. On the other hand, your commint information You're reading it wrong. It's confusing but correct. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 07:46:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06053 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watson.grauel.com (watson.grauel.com [199.233.104.36]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA06048; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparcmill.grauel.com (sparcmill.grauel.com [199.233.104.34]) by watson.grauel.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10497; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by sparcmill.grauel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA16473; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:45:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:45:55 -0500 From: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Message-Id: <199606061445.JAA16473@sparcmill.grauel.com> To: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Cc: Nate Williams , stable@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: <199606061404.JAA15831@sparcmill.grauel.com> References: <199606060421.WAA24403@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606061404.JAA15831@sparcmill.grauel.com> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard J. Kuhns writes: > from FreeBSD-stable/ctm on freebsd.org represents the most current bits (if > it doesn't, please ignore the rest of this message :-), I still have a > problem. I first ran "rm -rf /usr/src", then used the "install.sh" script > from the 2.1 CD to reload everything. I then used ctm to apply all of the > patches since src-2.1.0015C.gz (I've been saving them as I get them) -- no > problems. "make world" fails in libF77: "don't know how to make > F77_aloc.c". > Oops, the "make world" actually fails in libf2c, not libF77. Sorry. -- Rich Kuhns rjk@grauel.com PO Box 6249 Tel: (317)477-6000 x319 100 Sawmill Road Lafayette, IN 47903 From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 08:04:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA07478 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA07470 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA29973; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606061504.IAA29973@austin.polstra.com> To: grog@lemis.de Cc: freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <199606061151.NAA02909@allegro.lemis.de> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 08:04:07 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The way I read this, RELENG_2_1_0 should be revision 1.7.0.4, but > there *is* no 1.7.0.4. On the other hand, your commint information > suggests that it should be 1.7.4.2. No, that's OK. Peter explained this to me some time back. Revisions that have a "0" in the next-to-last position are special. RCS normally never creates such revision numbers. CVS takes advantage of that, and assigns a special meaning to them. They represent branch tags in CVS. A revision number of 1.7.0.4 _really_ means "the latest revision on the 1.7.4 branch." -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 08:04:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA07497 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA07489 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRgbh-000QXsC; Thu, 6 Jun 96 17:04 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA03649; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:49:13 +0200 Message-Id: <199606061449.QAA03649@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:49:13 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users) In-Reply-To: <199606061425.HAA07055@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at Jun 6, 96 07:25:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman writes: > >> I'm still having a lot of trouble just getting the *(&*(& to compile. >> The way I see it, a lot of the CVS files have an incorrect tag for >> RELENG_2_1_0. For example, this is > ... >> + RELENG_2_1_0: 1.7.0.4 > ... >> + ---------------------------- >> + revision 1.7.4.2 >> + date: 1996/06/05 02:48:18; author: jkh; state: Exp; lines: +6 -10 > ... >> The way I read this, RELENG_2_1_0 should be revision 1.7.0.4, but >> there *is* no 1.7.0.4. On the other hand, your commint information > > You're reading it wrong. It's confusing but correct. Well that tells me everything. If it's correct, do explain. And why doesn't cvs update check out the correct version if this is the way to do things? Greg From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 08:24:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA08630 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA08607 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA25467; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:24:05 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:24:05 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606061524.JAA25467@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users) Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <199606061151.NAA02909@allegro.lemis.de> References: <26451.834004904@time.cdrom.com> <199606061151.NAA02909@allegro.lemis.de> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Well, I tried to upgrade the really old and musty /usr/src/etc bits in > > -stable when I did my 3rd megacommit. I felt "fairly" safe with this > > section of the source, so I decided to not roll that part of my > > changes all the way back (along with calendar and colldef). If there > > are dangling references, please feel free! > > I'm still having a lot of trouble just getting the *(&*(& to compile. > The way I see it, a lot of the CVS files have an incorrect tag for > RELENG_2_1_0. Ahh, you don't understand the magic of CVS. (Or does it use something more evil). Peter explained this to me once, and Jordan reminded me of this yesterday. CVS uses a special tag to denote a branch line. It appends a zero to the major revision, and then adds the minor number of the revision on the end. So, when it comes time to check something out, it finds the zero, removes it and shifts everything to the right and grabs the most recent version on that brach. > + RELENG_2_1_0: 1.7.0.4 So, version 1.7.4.X where X is the highest number revision is the correct version on this branch. > + ---------------------------- > + revision 1.7.4.2 > + date: 1996/06/05 02:48:18; author: jkh; state: Exp; lines: +6 -10 > + This 3rd mega-commit should hopefully bring us back to where we were. > + I can get it to `make world' succesfully, anyway! > + ---------------------------- > + revision 1.7.4.1 > + date: 1996/06/03 05:07:56; author: jkh; state: Exp; lines: +10 -6 > + Phase 2 of merge - also fix things broken in phase 1. > + Watch out for falling rock until phase 3 is over! > + > + libc completely merged except for phkmalloc & rfork (don't know if David > + wants that). > + > + Some include files in sys/ had to be updated in order to bring in libc. > + ---------------------------- > + ============================================================================= > + (END) > > The way I read this, RELENG_2_1_0 should be revision 1.7.0.4, but > there *is* no 1.7.0.4. On the other hand, your commint information > suggests that it should be 1.7.4.2. So, everything is correct. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 08:36:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA09604 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA09597; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00209; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606061536.IAA00209@austin.polstra.com> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org, scanner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: <29756.834049027@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 08:36:10 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Well, Hmmm I LIKED the -stable tree. > > No question. If you don't actually have to be the one maintaining it, > it's great! :-) Well, I liked -stable too! Are you sure you're not over-reacting to the recent nightmare? That pesky post-traumatic stress syndrome thing? Hey, in time, the night sweats and flashbacks will pass. :-) It seems to me that -stable wasn't a big source of problems until this mega-commit thing happened. OK, so, we've learned that you can't do wholesale merges of every little thing into -stable. Fine. But what was the problem with the way we used it up until then? My view of it was that, when a person would commit a bug fix to -current, he would consider whether it should also go into -stable. Depending on the nature of the change, it might go into -stable immediately, a few weeks later, or never. It's a bit of a pain to merge change into -stable, granted, because you have to think about each file, and consider what should get merged and what should not. But isn't making judgements about individual cases an essential element of a so-called stable release? -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 08:41:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA10067 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster.wellfleet.com (lobster.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.253.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA10061 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pobox.BayNetworks.com by lobster.wellfleet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-4.1) id LAA00684; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:42:56 -0400 Received: from tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com by pobox.BayNetworks.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12387; Thu, 6 Jun 96 11:40:41 EDT Received: from localhost.engeast.baynetworks.com (localhost.engeast.baynetworks.com [127.0.0.1]) by tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA08415 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:40:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199606061540.LAA08415@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> X-Authentication-Warning: tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com: Host localhost.engeast.baynetworks.com didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 08:04:07 PDT." <199606061504.IAA29973@austin.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 11:40:40 -0400 From: Robert Withrow Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk :- Revisions that have a "0" in the next-to-last position are special. RCS :- normally never creates such revision numbers. CVS takes advantage of :- that, and assigns a special meaning to them. They represent branch tags :- in CVS. A revision number of 1.7.0.4 _really_ means "the latest :- revision on the 1.7.4 branch." I think there is a CVS bug, because on *some* platforms it really *does* print 1.7.4, as I think it should. 1.7.0.4 is bogus. -- Robert Withrow -- (+1 508 436 8256) BWithrow@BayNetworks.com From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 09:06:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA11911 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alpha.xerox.com (alpha.Xerox.COM [13.1.64.93]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA11898 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gratiano.parc.xerox.com ([13.2.116.55]) by alpha.xerox.com with SMTP id <19504(14)>; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:04:14 PDT Received: by gratiano.parc.xerox.com id <177867>; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:04:03 -0700 From: Bill Fenner To: grog@lemis.de, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-Id: <96Jun6.090403pdt.177867@gratiano.parc.xerox.com> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:03:53 PDT Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >+ RELENG_2_1_0: 1.7.0.4 > >The way I read this, RELENG_2_1_0 should be revision 1.7.0.4, but >there *is* no 1.7.0.4. CVS uses these nonsensical tags (X.Y.0.Z) to mean "The latest revision on branch X.Y.Z", in this case, 1.7.4.2 . Bill From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 09:15:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12612 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA12595 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25736; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:15:31 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:15:31 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606061615.KAA25736@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Cc: davidg@Root.COM, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users) Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <199606061449.QAA03649@allegro.lemis.de> References: <199606061425.HAA07055@Root.COM> <199606061449.QAA03649@allegro.lemis.de> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well that tells me everything. If it's correct, do explain. And why > doesn't cvs update check out the correct version if this is the way to > do things? How are you checking things out? From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 09:16:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA12841 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA12835 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA25747; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:16:43 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:16:43 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606061616.KAA25747@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Robert Withrow Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <199606061540.LAA08415@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> References: <199606061504.IAA29973@austin.polstra.com> <199606061540.LAA08415@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > :- Revisions that have a "0" in the next-to-last position are special. RCS > :- normally never creates such revision numbers. CVS takes advantage of > :- that, and assigns a special meaning to them. They represent branch tags > :- in CVS. A revision number of 1.7.0.4 _really_ means "the latest > :- revision on the 1.7.4 branch." > > > I think there is a CVS bug, because on *some* platforms it really > *does* print 1.7.4, as I think it should. 1.7.0.4 is bogus. It shouldn't on any recent version of CVS. Show me one running any version of CVS post 1.2. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 09:54:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14755 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14746 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA09736; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:54:27 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199606061654.JAA09736@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups To: bwithrow@BayNetworks.com (Robert Withrow) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606061540.LAA08415@tuva.engeast.baynetworks.com> from Robert Withrow at "Jun 6, 96 11:40:40 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > :- Revisions that have a "0" in the next-to-last position are special. RCS > :- normally never creates such revision numbers. CVS takes advantage of > :- that, and assigns a special meaning to them. They represent branch tags > :- in CVS. A revision number of 1.7.0.4 _really_ means "the latest > :- revision on the 1.7.4 branch." > > > I think there is a CVS bug, because on *some* platforms it really > *does* print 1.7.4, as I think it should. 1.7.0.4 is bogus. I think your thinking of what CVS tells you from commands: SkyRsh# cvs status Makefile =================================================================== File: Makefile Status: Needs Patch Working revision: 1.57.4.10 Thu May 9 16:22:16 1996 Repository revision: 1.57.4.12 /home/ncvs/src/Makefile,v Sticky Tag: RELENG_2_1_0 (branch: 1.57.4) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sticky Date: (none) Sticky Options: (none) SkyRsh# And what is actually stored in the RCS file: head 1.79; access; symbols RELENG_2_1_0_RELEASE:1.57.4.8 RELENG_2_1_0:1.57.0.4 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ RELENG_2_1_0_BP:1.57 RELENG_2_0_5_RELEASE:1.57 RELENG_2_0_5:1.57.0.2 RELENG_2_0_5_BP:1.57 RELENG_2_0_5_ALPHA:1.56 RELEASE_2_0:1.30 BETA_2_0:1.30 ALPHA_2_0:1.29.0.2 bsd_44_lite:1.1.1.1 CSRG:1.1.1; locks; strict; comment @# @; This is _not_ a bug in CVS, it is simply the way things work. The cvs commands massage the branch tags on output, going directly into the repository and reading this stuff requries that one fully understands how and when these types of ``tricks'' are used. -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 10:36:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA19253 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA19248 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id KAA16661 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA26003; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:32:29 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:32:29 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606061732.LAA26003@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users) Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups In-Reply-To: <199606061647.SAA03910@allegro.lemis.de> References: <199606061615.KAA25736@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606061647.SAA03910@allegro.lemis.de> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> Well that tells me everything. If it's correct, do explain. And why > >> doesn't cvs update check out the correct version if this is the way to > >> do things? > > > > How are you checking things out? > > cd /usr/src > cvs update -P -d Ahh, that's the problem. CVS doesn't 'keep' it's sticky tags when you checkout new files, so any new directories created will be created as if from the HEAD revision (ie; current). You need to explicitly force the stable branch. 'cvs update -Pdr RELENG_2_1_0' And you'll get all the good stuff. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 11:27:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA23739 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23727 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uRisz-000QXtC; Thu, 6 Jun 96 19:30 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA03910; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:47:24 +0200 Message-Id: <199606061647.SAA03910@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: Re: Mega-Commit cleanups To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:47:24 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users) In-Reply-To: <199606061615.KAA25736@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 6, 96 10:15:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: > >> Well that tells me everything. If it's correct, do explain. And why >> doesn't cvs update check out the correct version if this is the way to >> do things? > > How are you checking things out? cd /usr/src cvs update -P -d Greg From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 11:58:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25592 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iago.ienet.com (iago.ienet.com [207.78.32.53]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25587; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brutus.ienet.com (brutus.ienet.com [207.78.32.152]) by iago.ienet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA03133; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <31B72B95.1FD5@ienet.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 12:03:49 -0700 From: Terry Lee Organization: Internet Design Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Polstra CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, stable@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org, scanner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Status of -stable References: <199606061536.IAA00209@austin.polstra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Yes, I think John has a good point. It would be nice if -stable stuck around as a bug fix/new device driver tree even if it's not intended for release at all. I'm not saying that you should do this or that, just expressing that the -stable branch is very valuable in userland if only for a bug fixes and new device drivers. Cheers, Terry John Polstra wrote: > Well, I liked -stable too! Are you sure you're not over-reacting to > the recent nightmare? That pesky post-traumatic stress syndrome thing? > Hey, in time, the night sweats and flashbacks will pass. :-) > > It seems to me that -stable wasn't a big source of problems until this > mega-commit thing happened. OK, so, we've learned that you can't do > wholesale merges of every little thing into -stable. Fine. > > But what was the problem with the way we used it up until then? My view > of it was that, when a person would commit a bug fix to -current, he > would consider whether it should also go into -stable. Depending on the > nature of the change, it might go into -stable immediately, a few weeks > later, or never. > > It's a bit of a pain to merge change into -stable, granted, because > you have to think about each file, and consider what should get > merged and what should not. But isn't making judgements about > individual cases an essential element of a so-called stable release? -- I N T E R N E T Terry Lee, Technical Director D E S I G N 611 W. 6th St., Ste. 3201, Los Angeles, CA 90017 G R O U P 213.488.6100 voice 213.488.6101 fax http://www.mall.net mailto:terryl@ienet.com From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 12:19:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27173 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27151; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA26483; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:18:40 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:18:40 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606061918.NAA26483@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lee Cc: John Polstra , jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, stable@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org, scanner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: <31B72B95.1FD5@ienet.com> References: <199606061536.IAA00209@austin.polstra.com> <31B72B95.1FD5@ienet.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk FWIW, I think -stable is a wonderful thing. I even stated that to Jordan. *However*, I'm not the guy rolling the releases, and I have *NO* intention on doing it. I have enough fun trying to keep my little plate of projects working plus the occasional cleanups. That being said, I think we *could* stick with the -stable branch and just leave it as John suggested. If things actually go into -stable, it's because the developer does it, and *not* the release engineer. The person most qualified to do the merge, and given Jordan's hatred of CVS (some of it justified) we shouldn't expect him to do it. Now, on the flip-side, in order for -stable to continue working, a couple things *must* occur. First and foremost, developers must commit to bringing in changes to the -stable branch. If the developers aren't willing to bring in fixes to -stable (which gets more difficult over time as the environment diverge more and more, especially for the kernel.) I doubt you'll get any of the kernel developers to bring any significant changes over to -stable since with the VM and DEVFS changes, almost *everything* in the kernel is enough different where things aren't simple to bring over. Even the pccard and apm stuff are sometimes a pain to merge in -stable and -current and I've done almost *all* of the merging the last 5-6 months. Secondly, we *need* users to run -current, or else the whole point of -current becomes useless. FreeBSD is an experimental system to some degree, and unless the users test and help the developers debug the features of -current this project will get stale real fast. By making 'stable' continue on indefinitely, it encourages people to never try anything new and stick with 'tried and true'. Now, there's nothing wrong with that per-se, but if you want stability stick with a released version which for the most part is still more stable than running -stable. (Which the last couple weeks is a testament of. *grin*) Most of us do this because it's fun, and the fun stuff occurs in -current. The tradeoff is that sometimes in the midst of all this fun stuff you (or someone else) has way too much fun and introduces a bug in the system, which may/may not show up during testing. [ If you're having *lots* of fun you forget about testing and quickly commit your changes and then go watch the NBA finals or something like that, knowing that some geek w/out a life will immediately upgrade his sources and blow away his system testing out your code. *grin* ] > I'm not saying that you should do this or that, just expressing that the > -stable branch is very valuable in userland if only for a bug fixes and > new device drivers. Actually, the reason for the big 'merge' was that there are lots of userland fixes in -current that would be nice to have in -stable. However, bringing them in *after* the fact is a pain, and bringing them in at the original commit time is a mistake. Basically, if I bring in a fix to a user-land utility/library, it should go into -current to be beat on for 'a while to make sure the fix is valid unless it's really an obvious fix. Then, I should bring the fix into -stable once 'a while' has passed and the fix has been properly tested. The rub is that 'a while' is variable, and that once the fix is in the developer moves onto bigger/better things and forgets completely about the fix using the now-famous quote "It's been fixed in -current". Anyway, this is getting way too long and I *really* need to get back to fixing our iBCS2 emulation code for a project at work. I've found that 'gethostname' and 'uname' don't work right with regards to using FQDN. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 12:22:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27500 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA27494 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.algonet.se (mail.algonet.se [193.12.207.206]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA22810 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:22:23 -0700 Received: from (aristotle.algonet.se [193.12.207.1]) by hermes.algonet.se (8.7.4/hdw.1.0) with SMTP id VAA07596; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:14:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606061914.VAA07596@hermes.algonet.se> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Johan Granlund" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:11:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: The demise of -stable CC: stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Johan Granlund" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Well, Hmmm I LIKED the -stable tree. > > No question. If you don't actually have to be the one maintaining > it, it's great! :-) > > > release with bug fixes. > > Im gonna cry when you murder the poor thing. > > People have been suggesting that we resurrect "the patch kit" and I > really don't know what to say about that. If someone else were to > do the actual grunt work, sure, I guess I could see it working. The > group at large would certainly be more cooperative partners that > Jolitz ever was :-). Another probably bad idea. How about a stable branch as now. With bugfixes and choice bits from the -current tree. When the next release is deemed stable we throw out the whole src/ tree, download a new base and makes "make upgrade", "make world". This way it's not necessary to make a merge between the -stable and -current trees. /Johan PS: I dont want Jordans job :-) DS > > Jordan > ___________________________________________________________ Internet: Johang@Algonet.se I don't even speak for myself From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 12:41:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA29542 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ceres.brunel.ac.uk (pp@ceres.brunel.ac.uk [134.83.176.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA29537; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk by ceres.brunel.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:39:22 +0100 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id UAA27522; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:34:30 +0100 (BST) To: stable@FreeBSD.ORG cc: committers@FreeBSD.ORG From: Gary Palmer Subject: miscfs/devfs Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:34:28 +0100 Message-ID: <27520.834089668@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is devfs meant to have been tagged onto the 2.1 branch? I just noticed that it appeared in my checkout on freefall and the tags are there for both 2.0.5 and 2.1! Umm?!? Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 13:07:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01722 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01656; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA22954 ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:06:42 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA26725; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:03:29 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:03:29 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606062003.OAA26725@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Gary Palmer Cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: miscfs/devfs In-Reply-To: <27520.834089668@palmer.demon.co.uk> References: <27520.834089668@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Is devfs meant to have been tagged onto the 2.1 branch? I just noticed > that it appeared in my checkout on freefall and the tags are there for > both 2.0.5 and 2.1! Umm?!? That's because it existed in both 2.0.5 and 2.1 stable. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 13:19:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02793 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02783; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA26854; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:19:36 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:19:36 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606062019.OAA26854@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Gary Palmer" Cc: Nate Williams , stable@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: miscfs/devfs In-Reply-To: <27731.834092293@palmer.demon.co.uk> References: <199606062003.OAA26725@rocky.sri.MT.net> <27731.834092293@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gary Palmer writes: > Nate Williams wrote in message ID > <199606062003.OAA26725@rocky.sri.MT.net>: > > > Is devfs meant to have been tagged onto the 2.1 branch? I just noticed > > > that it appeared in my checkout on freefall and the tags are there for > > > both 2.0.5 and 2.1! Umm?!? > > > That's because it existed in both 2.0.5 and 2.1 stable. > > WHOOPS > > Remind me to read the commit logs more carefully. Sorry. I just got a > surprise when I did a ``cvs -q update -Pd -rRELENG_2_1_0'' and saw > devfs stuff touched. Yep, they shouldn't have gotten touched, so I re-touched them back. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 13:21:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02951 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02929; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA23051 ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:20:24 -0700 Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id VAA27734; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:18:14 +0100 (BST) To: Nate Williams cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG, committers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: miscfs/devfs In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:03:29 MDT." <199606062003.OAA26725@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:18:13 +0100 Message-ID: <27731.834092293@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote in message ID <199606062003.OAA26725@rocky.sri.MT.net>: > > Is devfs meant to have been tagged onto the 2.1 branch? I just noticed > > that it appeared in my checkout on freefall and the tags are there for > > both 2.0.5 and 2.1! Umm?!? > That's because it existed in both 2.0.5 and 2.1 stable. WHOOPS Remind me to read the commit logs more carefully. Sorry. I just got a surprise when I did a ``cvs -q update -Pd -rRELENG_2_1_0'' and saw devfs stuff touched. Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 13:34:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04147 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04138; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA17490; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:32:32 -0700 (PDT) To: John Polstra cc: nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org, scanner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 08:36:10 PDT." <199606061536.IAA00209@austin.polstra.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:32:32 -0700 Message-ID: <17488.834093152@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Well, I liked -stable too! Are you sure you're not over-reacting to > the recent nightmare? That pesky post-traumatic stress syndrome thing? > Hey, in time, the night sweats and flashbacks will pass. :-) :-) No, it's been a matter of concern for some time, actually. David and I have been talking about -stable in hushed tones of "What the f*** are we going to do about this wart long-term? We can't keep doing this!" for at least a year. This may have been the last straw, but it was hardly the only (or even most significant) one. It's an ongoing maintainance headache and we really don't have the resources to do this, it's just that simple. Either we make the process simpler (ditch CVS) or we get a lot more people to work on FreeBSD and do it by brute force (yuck), but we can't keep doing it with what we've got now. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 13:38:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA04467 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:38:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA04431 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id VAA27809; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:35:26 +0100 (BST) To: Johan Granlund cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , stable@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: The demise of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:11:11 -0000." <199606061914.VAA07596@hermes.algonet.se> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:35:25 +0100 Message-ID: <27807.834093325@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Johan Granlund wrote in message ID <199606061914.VAA07596@hermes.algonet.se>: > > People have been suggesting that we resurrect "the patch kit" and I > > really don't know what to say about that. If someone else were to > > do the actual grunt work, sure, I guess I could see it working. The > > group at large would certainly be more cooperative partners that > > Jolitz ever was :-). > Another probably bad idea. > How about a stable branch as now. With bugfixes and choice bits from > the -current tree. What a lot of people are forgetting is the tool currently in use (CVS) does NOT have the required power/features to do branch maintence for long periods, or sustain multiple branches. Some of the aftermath of this mega-merge by Jordan is proof (you can't tell when branch tags were added, for example). It may look nice and rosy for people who just sup/ctm/ftp the source tree from the -stable branch every so often and work from that, but for people actually using it day-to-day in this situation it's far from nice. If nothing else, you really need 2 full source trees checked out all the time (one from -stable, one from -current). That's about 250Mb's of disk space down the drain right away, which on freefall, where you have multiple people working on both trees, is a very big issue. The -stable branch has WAY outlived it's intended lifespan. Perhaps if we actually got the releases out on time we could go back to a -stable branch philosophy, as it won't be around for the year or so that this one has... (no insult/offense intended to the release team, as I've been involved to some extent or other with the past 3 releases, so I know it's not an easy job) Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 13:54:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06080 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06074; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA02799; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 13:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606062054.NAA02799@austin.polstra.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org, scanner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:32:32 PDT." <17488.834093152@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:54:43 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > No, it's been a matter of concern for some time, actually. David > and I have been talking about -stable in hushed tones of "What the > f*** are we going to do about this wart long-term? We can't keep > doing this!" for at least a year. This may have been the last > straw, but it was hardly the only (or even most significant) one. > It's an ongoing maintainance headache and we really don't have the > resources to do this, it's just that simple. OK, I'll buy that. You're certainly in a better position to appreciate all the issues than I am. -- John From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 14:21:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08221 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patty.loop.net (patty.loop.net [204.179.169.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA08216 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mlcoh.loop.com (mlcoh.loop.com [204.179.169.6]) by patty.loop.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA07108 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:20:33 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960606132150.006a45e0@patty-inet.loop.net> X-Sender: greg@patty-inet.loop.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:21:50 +0100 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org From: Greg Wiley Subject: networking problem with new -stable build Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It's probably something simple but it's ruining my day... :) I just built the new -stable this morning and networking broke. Trying any network operation (to either de0, de1 interfaces or the loopback interface) results in the error: sendto: permission denied My kernel config is the same as before; ifconfig reveals that the interfaces are recognized and configured (they also still detect cable disconnects). Also, if I ping an interface from another host, the pinging host will show up in the broken machine's routing table. Any suggestions? Thanks, -greg From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 14:27:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA08837 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08830 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA18210; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:25:41 -0700 (PDT) To: "Johan Granlund" cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The demise of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:11:11 -0000." <199606061914.VAA07596@hermes.algonet.se> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:25:40 -0700 Message-ID: <18208.834096340@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How about a stable branch as now. With bugfixes and choice bits from > the -current tree. As long as none of us have to do the work, I guess I have no problem with -stable continuing to evolve by whichever group of -committers wishes to evolve it. My only worry would be about quality control and "rogue" releases making the rounds. There would have to be some sort of core team stamp of approval, I think, for everyone to be comfortable with the idea of additional releases being made along the -stable branch (unless the idea is that this is never made into another release but merely kept around as a shared source resource?). Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 14:34:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09540 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09520 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA27265; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:34:08 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:34:08 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606062134.PAA27265@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Greg Wiley Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: networking problem with new -stable build In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960606132150.006a45e0@patty-inet.loop.net> References: <1.5.4.32.19960606132150.006a45e0@patty-inet.loop.net> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's probably something simple but it's ruining my day... :) > > I just built the new -stable this morning and networking > broke. Trying any network operation (to either de0, de1 > interfaces or the loopback interface) results in the error: > > sendto: permission denied Hmm, are you using IPFW? Also, how did you re-compile your kernel? Did you start over from scratch? Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 14:39:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09992 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09973 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA20897; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:38:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:38:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: Thomas J Balfe cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Stable In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Thomas J Balfe wrote: > I will tell my grand kids one day about -stable. My granddad had stories > about going up the hill both ways to school, and I'll have my stories > about -stable, circa 1996. See you guys on -release! May we all bow our heads in a moment of silence please for -stable. Let us take this time to remeber the stability we had with stable, the good times, the bad, the glory of stable will not be forgotten. -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 14:45:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10753 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10739; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA21122; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:44:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: John Polstra cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: <199606061536.IAA00209@austin.polstra.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It's a bit of a pain to merge change into -stable, granted, because > you have to think about each file, and consider what should get > merged and what should not. But isn't making judgements about > individual cases an essential element of a so-called stable release? YEAH! What he said! ^^^^^^^^ :) -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 15:08:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12657 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patty.loop.net (patty.loop.net [204.179.169.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12648 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mlcoh.loop.com (mlcoh.loop.com [204.179.169.6]) by patty.loop.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA11800 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:07:07 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960606140824.006a6a3c@patty-inet.loop.net> X-Sender: greg@patty-inet.loop.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 15:08:24 +0100 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org From: Greg Wiley Subject: Re: networking problem with new -stable build Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:34 PM 6/6/96 -0600, Nate Williams wrote: >> It's probably something simple but it's ruining my day... :) >> sendto: permission denied >Hmm, are you using IPFW? Well, there you have it. I had IP_FIREWALL defined in the con- figuration and under 2.1.0-RELEASE I didn't have to do any boot- time firewall configuration. It appears that with the new source, I have to override the default 'deny all from any to any' rule. Works great now. Thanks for the pointer. -greg From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 15:11:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12855 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12846; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA22134; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:10:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lee , John Polstra , jkh@time.cdrom.com, stable@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: <199606061918.NAA26483@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > I'm not saying that you should do this or that, just expressing that the > > -stable branch is very valuable in userland if only for a bug fixes and > > new device drivers. > > Actually, the reason for the big 'merge' was that there are lots of > userland fixes in -current that would be nice to have in -stable. > However, bringing them in *after* the fact is a pain, and bringing them > in at the original commit time is a mistake. Agreed. I also agree that the release engineer and the others will do whats best for them with no negative feelings from me or anyone on the bsdnet network. The core team is an excellent group of developers. And they work extremely hard. But for me running an ISP, -release is fine but knowing there is a ongoing src tree of bug fixes and patches to broken things that didnt work in release but that work now, is a huge bonus to us all in the ISP game. If I had a can not being used in production here i would be more than happy to run -current (im alread partialy nuts what could current do to me more? :) ) I know several people that run current, I dont think there is a lack of effort on people to run current to test out bleeding edge changes and all the really cool bells and whistles. Im just saying that as an ISP, no other vendor in the univers has anything first off comparable to the daily work that one can sup or CTM to get new src. And having a -stable (for the most part) tree is a godsend to me for my ISP. Having the ability to grab a src tree with some new bells and whistles but mostly for stable fixes and enhancments to the -release im running is something that you just cannot compare anyone other unix to. I dont envy the work the core does to fbsd. 2.2 in my opinion is going to really impress the unix vendors out there. Dyson's VM changes I would KILL to get a hold of now, but like i said because my cans are in production use i CANT grab -current. I can wait :) Anyway whatever the jordan and david and the others decide is 100% fine with me, i just want them to know how much i appreciate there being a -stable tree, FBSD is THE best damn unix in the univers! :) nukign -stable isnt going to do anything to fbsd you could revert back to fbsd 1.x and it would still rock! Anyway just think twice before nuking -stable and see if you can come up with any possible solutions before nuking it. -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 15:28:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14786 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14696 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id XAA28121; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:11:24 +0100 (BST) To: Nate Williams cc: stable@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: miscfs/devfs In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:19:36 MDT." <199606062019.OAA26854@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:11:23 +0100 Message-ID: <28119.834099083@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote in message ID <199606062019.OAA26854@rocky.sri.MT.net>: > Gary Palmer writes: > > Nate Williams wrote in message ID > > Remind me to read the commit logs more carefully. Sorry. I just got a > > surprise when I did a ``cvs -q update -Pd -rRELENG_2_1_0'' and saw > > devfs stuff touched. > Yep, they shouldn't have gotten touched, so I re-touched them back. :) Actually, come to think of it, are they any good in -stable? Should they just be cvs rm'd and left out? The devfs stuff in -stable is rotting (I don't think any of the fixes from -current have made it back, and I don't expect them to). Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 15:33:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA15271 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15261; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA27504; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:33:21 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:33:21 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606062233.QAA27504@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Gary Palmer" Cc: Nate Williams , stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: miscfs/devfs In-Reply-To: <28119.834099083@palmer.demon.co.uk> References: <199606062019.OAA26854@rocky.sri.MT.net> <28119.834099083@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ DEVFS in stable ] > > Actually, come to think of it, are they any good in -stable? Should > they just be cvs rm'd and left out? The devfs stuff in -stable is > rotting (I don't think any of the fixes from -current have made it > back, and I don't expect them to). If you feel comfortable in removing them from -stable w/out breaking the tree, I'm sure no-one will mind. Jordan has already stated publically that he's not touching stable, and I put in the last critical fix for stable last night. The only issues I see left for stable are documentation issues and ports. Apparently the documentation was going to get updated 'en-masse', so I'm waiting for it to happen. And, the IPFW stuff is still in limbo with me. Some of the documentation/hooks and such were brought into -stable, but others weren't. Poul or someone else should finish the job he started. Me, I'm still using the old version with the 'bug you could drive a tank through', but I'm not worried since my box hasn't went down in over 3 months, so the bug won't affect me until I manually reboot my box and/or the power goes out. If the latter happens I'm not worried either since my ISP (across the street) takes about twice as long form my link to come up, which means my entries will be in place long before the internet comes a knocking. :) Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 16:31:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA19779 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patty.loop.net (patty.loop.net [204.179.169.20]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19774 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mlcoh.loop.com (mlcoh.loop.com [204.179.169.6]) by patty.loop.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA20703 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:30:30 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960606153148.006ab4ec@patty-inet.loop.net> X-Sender: greg@patty-inet.loop.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 16:31:48 +0100 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org From: Greg Wiley Subject: Need ccd documentation Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there a good setup document available? Now that I've compiled -stable, I tried to install a ccd. Ccdconfig com- plains of a missing /dev/ccd0c but there are no ccd instruc- tions in /dev/MAKEDEV. I've got three partitions, sd1s1, sd2s1, and sd3s1 identically configured and I'm assuming I shouldn't put a fs on them until they're concatenated but where can I find a guide for creating the block and character devices apparently required by ccdconfig? Regards, -greg From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 16:50:32 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21759 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org ([204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA21724; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id SAA04206; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:52:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:52:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606062352.SAA04206@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: nate@sri.MT.net Cc: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: IPFW (was Re: miscfs/devfs) Reply-to: nash@mcs.com Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And, the IPFW stuff is still in limbo with me. Some of the > documentation/hooks and such were brought into -stable, but others > weren't. Poul or someone else should finish the job he started. Me, > I'm still using the old version with the 'bug you could drive a tank > through', but I'm not worried since my box hasn't went down in over 3 > months, so the bug won't affect me until I manually reboot my box and/or > the power goes out. If the latter happens I'm not worried either since > my ISP (across the street) takes about twice as long form my link to > come up, which means my entries will be in place long before the > internet comes a knocking. :) I believe IPFW is synchronized between -stable and -current (minus some compiler warning cleanup by Gary). The documentation on the other hand, is either not complete (the ipfw man page), or somewhat invalid (the handbook -- Gary's writeup is excellent, but the syntax has changed and new features have been added). If there's anyone to blame for this, it would be me. I've agreed to take the ipfw torch from Poul, but I've only just recently gotten commit privileges. If anyone is interested, I've placed my proposed changes (that I'd originally submitted as PRs) at: http://www.freebsd.org/~alex If anyone wants to take a look at it and give me some feedback, I'd really appreciate it (please keep in mind that it's not complete yet!). I'll probably check this into -current, cleanup the documentation issues, wait a while, and then merge it into -stable. Alex From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 16:51:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA21996 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.aros.net (root@shell.aros.net [205.164.111.19]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA21987 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from angio@localhost) by shell.aros.net (8.7.5/Unknown) id RAA01757; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:51:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Dave Andersen Message-Id: <199606062351.RAA01757@shell.aros.net> Subject: Re: Need ccd documentation To: greg@loop.com (Greg Wiley) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:51:24 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960606153148.006ab4ec@patty-inet.loop.net> from Greg Wiley at "Jun 6, 96 04:31:48 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The problem is that updating -stable doesn't update MAKEDEV (or /etc/rc). You'll want to copy both of those files from: /usr/src/etc/rc and /usr/src/etc/etc.i386/MAKEDEV and then makedev the ccd devices. If you don't update /etc/rc, then you won't be automatically ccdconfig'd at boot - small problem. :) -Dave Andersen Lo and behold, Greg Wiley once said: > Is there a good setup document available? Now that I've > compiled -stable, I tried to install a ccd. Ccdconfig com- > plains of a missing /dev/ccd0c but there are no ccd instruc- > tions in /dev/MAKEDEV. I've got three partitions, sd1s1, > sd2s1, and sd3s1 identically configured and I'm assuming > I shouldn't put a fs on them until they're concatenated but > where can I find a guide for creating the block and > character devices apparently required by ccdconfig? > > Regards, > > -greg > -- angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual "There are only two industries that refer to thier customers as 'users'." From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 16:52:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA22265 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22253 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA27728; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:52:26 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:52:26 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606062352.RAA27728@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: nash@mcs.com Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IPFW (was Re: miscfs/devfs) In-Reply-To: <199606062352.SAA04206@zen.nash.org> References: <199606062352.SAA04206@zen.nash.org> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I believe IPFW is synchronized between -stable and -current (minus > some compiler warning cleanup by Gary). Great. I wasn't sure. > The documentation on the > other hand, is either not complete (the ipfw man page), or somewhat > invalid (the handbook -- Gary's writeup is excellent, but the syntax > has changed and new features have been added). > > If there's anyone to blame for this, it would be me. I've agreed to > take the ipfw torch from Poul, but I've only just recently gotten > commit privileges. I'm glad you've taken the torch. I was worried that things weren't going to be documented, and given that -stable is going to be 2.1.5R soon, I am glad the documentation will be updated. Thanks for doing this! Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 18:01:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28297 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28262 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id CAA28559; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:00:59 +0100 (BST) To: nash@mcs.com cc: nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: IPFW (was Re: miscfs/devfs) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 18:52:20 CDT." <199606062352.SAA04206@zen.nash.org> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:00:58 +0100 Message-ID: <28557.834109258@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Alex Nash wrote in message ID <199606062352.SAA04206@zen.nash.org>: > I believe IPFW is synchronized between -stable and -current (minus > some compiler warning cleanup by Gary). I believe that's right, yes. You are certainly welcome to bring that change into -stable too. > The documentation on the other hand, is either not complete (the > ipfw man page), or somewhat invalid (the handbook -- Gary's writeup > is excellent, but the syntax has changed and new features have been > added). Thanks :-) Sorry I haven't updated this, but I haven't had the h/w to play with the new IPFW stuff so I can't really do a write up of the new command syntax/features :-/ Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 18:05:12 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA28851 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asstdc.scgt.oz.au (root@asstdc.scgt.oz.au [202.14.234.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28824 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from imb@localhost) by asstdc.scgt.oz.au (8.7.5/BSD4.4) id LAA20154 for stable@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:04:53 +1000 (EST) From: michael butler Message-Id: <199606070104.LAA20154@asstdc.scgt.oz.au> Subject: Re: Status of -stable To: stable@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:04:52 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199606061918.NAA26483@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 6, 96 01:18:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: > FWIW, I think -stable is a wonderful thing. -stable worked because FreeBSD has two general classes of use, those that need a functioning machine 24 by 7 and those that don't. To drop -stable as a concept leaves the 'production use' guys out of the cycle. In that respect, I will be very sad to see it go because it implies that such things as the CERT advisories may not be acted upon for a 3 or 6 month period without either risking the stability of production equipment or producing yet another patch-kit for such things and/or other 'show stoppers', michael From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 19:42:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14928 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14908 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA07438 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606070242.TAA07438@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Installing FreeBSD-stable Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 19:42:32 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Time for me to ask a stupid newbie FreeBSD question... I see source for FreeBSD-stable, but no binaries. So, stable is just like current, except more stable and less current? ;-) What I mean is, you don't have ready-made binary tarballs, and ready-to-go installation tools? Is it a simple matter to just build stable sources on a 2.1.0-release system? (I know if you get too far out of sync with NetBSD-current, it can be almost impossible to build current on a previous release.) Is this a FAQ? Is asking "is this a FAQ?" a FAQ? Does Mel Torme really drink Mountain Dew? Thanks for educating me on all that is FreeBSD-stable... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 19:56:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA17520 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA17513 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA19413; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:54:52 -0700 (PDT) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 19:42:32 PDT." <199606070242.TAA07438@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 19:54:52 -0700 Message-ID: <19411.834116092@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Time for me to ask a stupid newbie FreeBSD question... No, it's not a stupid one.. > I see source for FreeBSD-stable, but no binaries. So, stable is just > like current, except more stable and less current? ;-) Naw, that's based more on the fact that I simply haven't had the resources to create 2.1 snaps up to now. One of the few good side-effects of my recent -stable adventures was that it got me to shell out for a P5/PCI upgrade to one of my older and slower 486/ISA boxes, and now that box is a 2.1 build platform worthy of the task. Now that -stable is looking like it's more or less put back together, I've been rolling a 2.1-960606-SNAP (the 666 SNAP :-) which may or may not prove itself to be actually installable. If it is, I'll copy it to wcarchive for everyone else to enjoy, also spamming thud.freebsd.org with it so that we can start creating the 2.1.5 package set. Of course, if it's not then you all may have to wait a couple of more days.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 20:02:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA18622 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA18613 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA07544; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606070301.UAA07544@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 06 Jun 96 19:54:52 -0700. <19411.834116092@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:01:15 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> I see source for FreeBSD-stable, but no binaries. So, stable is just >> like current, except more stable and less current? ;-) >Naw, that's based more on the fact that I simply haven't had the >resources to create 2.1 snaps up to now. One of the few good [...] So, the SNAPs are binary snapshots of the stable tree? I should go read the FAQ some time, eh? :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 20:08:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA20270 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20251 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA19679; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:06:20 -0700 (PDT) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:01:15 PDT." <199606070301.UAA07544@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:06:20 -0700 Message-ID: <19676.834116780@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So, the SNAPs are binary snapshots of the stable tree? SNAPs are just that, SNAPshots. They can be taken any time along any branch tag, that's why the naming convention is V.R-YYMMDD-SNAP. I just haven't happened to feel the need for a 2.1 based snapshot up to now, something that's now changed. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 20:15:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA21603 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA21580 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA07610; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606070314.UAA07610@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 06 Jun 96 20:06:20 -0700. <19676.834116780@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:14:50 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> So, the SNAPs are binary snapshots of the stable tree? >SNAPs are just that, SNAPshots. They can be taken any time along any >branch tag, that's why the naming convention is V.R-YYMMDD-SNAP. >I just haven't happened to feel the need for a 2.1 based snapshot up >to now, something that's now changed. :) OK, one more time just to make sure I understand you correctly. The current SNAPs are snapshots of the 2.2, a.k.a. current, tree. And, stable is a follow-on to 2.1 (2.1.5?), which doesn't have binary snapshots at this time. Does this sound correct? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 20:26:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22839 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA22830 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA20951; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:24:49 -0700 (PDT) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:14:50 PDT." <199606070314.UAA07610@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:24:49 -0700 Message-ID: <20949.834117889@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > OK, one more time just to make sure I understand you correctly. The > current SNAPs are snapshots of the 2.2, a.k.a. current, tree. And, > stable is a follow-on to 2.1 (2.1.5?), which doesn't have binary > snapshots at this time. -stable isn't a "follow on" to 2.1, it's a branch of development that actually started (was initially tagged) at 2.0.5 time. Its end will be with 2.1.5. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 20:38:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA24279 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA24249 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA07710; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606070337.UAA07710@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 06 Jun 96 20:24:49 -0700. <20949.834117889@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:37:13 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> OK, one more time just to make sure I understand you correctly. The >> current SNAPs are snapshots of the 2.2, a.k.a. current, tree. And, >> stable is a follow-on to 2.1 (2.1.5?), which doesn't have binary >> snapshots at this time. >-stable isn't a "follow on" to 2.1, it's a branch of development that >actually started (was initially tagged) at 2.0.5 time. Its end will >be with 2.1.5. Thanks for all the info (and patience), Jordan! Last question (really! :-): so, as I asked before, will it be a simple task to do a source compile "upgrade" from 2.1.0-release to stable? My NetBSD release to current strategy was usually: build new config, build new kernel, reboot, install new includes, build new make, install new make rules, build new libraries and install, make and install the rest of the world. Is this underkill, just right, or overkill for what I want to do? :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 21:00:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA27143 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27107 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA21083; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:58:12 -0700 (PDT) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:37:13 PDT." <199606070337.UAA07710@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:58:12 -0700 Message-ID: <21081.834119892@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Last question (really! :-): so, as I asked before, will it be a simple > task to do a source compile "upgrade" from 2.1.0-release to stable? I hope so. There may be some sort of "upgrade" target you're supposed to run first in /usr/src/Makefile, but there will be something. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 21:05:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA28025 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA28019 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA28325; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:05:13 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:05:13 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606070405.WAA28325@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-Reply-To: <199606070242.TAA07438@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> References: <199606070242.TAA07438@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I see source for FreeBSD-stable, but no binaries. So, stable is just > like current, except more stable and less current? ;-) Yep. > What I mean is, you don't have ready-made binary tarballs, and > ready-to-go installation tools? Nope. > Is it a simple matter to just build > stable sources on a 2.1.0-release system? Yep. You update your sources via sup or CTM and then do a 'make world'. If everything works like it's supposed to you have a system that's 95% of the way there. Then, build and install a -stable kernel and you're 98% of the way there. The remaining 2% is making sure your /etc and /dev files are merged, but this has to be done by hand right now. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 23:23:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA16517 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (palmer.demon.co.uk [158.152.50.150]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16510 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palmer.demon.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by palmer.demon.co.uk (sendmail/PALMER-1) with ESMTP id GAA28958; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:39:19 +0100 (BST) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 20:37:13 PDT." <199606070337.UAA07710@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 06:39:17 +0100 Message-ID: <28956.834125957@palmer.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" wrote in message ID <199606070337.UAA07710@MindBender.HeadCandy.com>: > Last question (really! :-): so, as I asked before, will it be a simple > task to do a source compile "upgrade" from 2.1.0-release to stable? Just FYI, I had a FreeBSD box that was running 2.0-RELEASE, with munged binaries in a couple of places to allow me to run a 2.1-stable kernel on it. I downloaded the 2.1-stable source tree a month or two ago once I got more disk space. Made a new kernel, rebooted using it, then ran `make world' in /usr/src. Apart from 2 hiccups (which were easly fixed if you read the error and go look at what's happening) it worked fine. So (with a small bit of work) it's possible to bootstrap from 2.0R! Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info From owner-freebsd-stable Thu Jun 6 23:29:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA17237 for stable-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17226; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA24185; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:27:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lee , John Polstra , stable@freebsd.org, committers@freebsd.org, scanner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:18:40 MDT." <199606061918.NAA26483@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 23:27:29 -0700 Message-ID: <24183.834128849@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That being said, I think we *could* stick with the -stable branch and > just leave it as John suggested. If things actually go into -stable, > it's because the developer does it, and *not* the release engineer. Well, OK. Let me see if I can sum up how I think things are all going to be able to work (and not work) in the future. If we choose not to kill -stable outright, which is clearly the easiest decision requiring the least effort (or discussion), then I see a user-supported -stable as the only real choice. Moreover, I would see this as supported by a consortium of folks - the ISP/developers and other users with a vested interest in -stable contributing patches and suggestions, and one or more volunteer commitfolk fielding and commiting these to the stable branch. Unlike Nate's suggestion, this would NOT be a task we'd expect the developers to pick up. Those few developers who've even tried to do this up to now have eyeballs which are over-strained from trying to look in two directions at once. Let's give 'em a break! This should be handled by one or at most two people who _really want_ -stable to live and are willing to slowly dribble patches into it. We've already been "outsourcing" the job of producing CTM deltas for -stable to Richard Wackerbarth, why not make all of -stable that way? Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 02:19:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA02177 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA02171 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA21218; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606070919.CAA21218@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:19:05 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams writes: >[ If you're having *lots* of fun you forget about testing and quickly >commit your changes and then go watch the NBA finals or something like >that, knowing that some geek w/out a life will immediately upgrade his >sources and blow away his system testing out your code. *grin* ] Given all your well worded statements of understanding about people who need stable systems (different than the -stable release), THIS is why I don't use -current. ;-) I'd really love to have fun with you guys. Really. Hell if I had my way, I'd be digging deep into the code. My clients, however, don't like to have fun in the same way. And while I am not an advocate of any sort of subscription to the notions of credibility, the fledgling commercial internet businesses don't have any other way to separate hype from competance. >Basically, if I bring in a fix to a user-land utility/library, it should >go into -current to be beat on for 'a while to make sure the fix is >valid unless it's really an obvious fix. Then, I should bring the fix >into -stable once 'a while' has passed and the fix has been properly >tested. The rub is that 'a while' is variable, and that once the fix is >in the developer moves onto bigger/better things and forgets completely >about the fix using the now-famous quote "It's been fixed in >-current". Isn't that what the SNAPs are really for? Correct me if I'm wrong (and who out there won't?) but aren't these supposed to be "more stable snapshots" of -current? On a related note, software I deliver to customers is (usually) accompanied by Q&A procedures. Is there *any* way to Q&A an entire UNIX system in an automated fashion? One solution to the "-stable" thing is to have a "test script" (oh right, one script?) that exercises all known bugs... ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet In a meadow, the King shot an arrow at a deer but missed. "Bravo!" a Fool shouted. The King became angry and snapped "So! You're making fun of me, eh? I am going to punish the life out of you!" "My word of praise was not for His Excellency, but for the deer." From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 03:10:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA04136 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 03:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epprod.elsevier.co.uk (epprod.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.222.35]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA04118 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 03:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from snowdon.elsevier.co.uk (snowdon.elsevier.co.uk [193.131.197.164]) by epprod.elsevier.co.uk (8.6.13/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA00169 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:09:11 +0100 Received: from tees by snowdon with SMTP (PP); Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:09:23 +0100 Received: (from dpr@localhost) by tees (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) id LAA25144; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:09:00 +0100 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:09:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199606071009.LAA25144@tees> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Johan Granlund , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The demise of -stable In-Reply-To: <18208.834096340@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606061914.VAA07596@hermes.algonet.se> <18208.834096340@time.cdrom.com> Reply-To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk From: Paul Richards X-Attribution: Paul X-Mailer: GNU Emacs [19.30.1], RMAIL, Mailcrypt [3.3] Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>>>> ""Jordan" == "Jordan K Hubbard" writes: >> How about a stable branch as now. With bugfixes and choice bits >> from the -current tree. "Jordan> As long as none of us have to do the work, I guess I have no "Jordan> problem with -stable continuing to evolve by whichever group "Jordan> of -committers wishes to evolve it. My only worry would be "Jordan> about quality control and "rogue" releases making the rounds. "Jordan> There would have to be some sort of core team stamp of "Jordan> approval, I think, for everyone to be comfortable with the "Jordan> idea of additional releases being made along the -stable "Jordan> branch (unless the idea is that this is never made into "Jordan> another release but merely kept around as a shared source "Jordan> resource?). Well, I've already said to Jordan that I'd be willing to look after a -stable branch but *only* for bug fixes and only for bug fixes that can be done without a lot of re-architecting, those more complex bug fixes should be done in -current. There are companies I've sold FreeBSD systems to that actually use -stable as a bug fix tracking system, it's a hell of a lot nicer to sup or ctm -stable than it is to deal with Sun's bug fix system and we could make -stable a valuable resource along these lines. I think a bug-fix cdrom would be nice but that can be dicussed later, the idea of a bug fix mechanism is more important to me. The sort of bug fixes that would be OK would be the fixes Justin has made to the adaptec driver, the sort of thing I wouldn't like to allow would be "choice bits" since that's not what people tracking -stable are really looking for, they want the bugs in the functionality they have fixed not new stuff, they'll wait until the next full release for that, their main concern is *stability*. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 04:31:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA07492 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DATAPLEX.NET (SHARK.DATAPLEX.NET [199.183.109.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07485 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.183.109.242 by DATAPLEX.NET with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:31:25 -0600 Message-ID: Date: 7 Jun 1996 06:31:09 -0500 From: "Richard Wackerbarth" Subject: Re(2): The demise of -stable To: "FreeBSD Hackers" , "Jordan" , "p.richards@elsevier.co.uk" , "stable@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards writes: > The sort of bug fixes that would be OK would be the fixes Justin has made to > the adaptec driver, the sort of thing I wouldn't like to allow would be > "choice bits" since that's not what people tracking -stable are really > looking for, they want the bugs in the functionality they have fixed not > new stuff, they'll wait until the next full release for that, their main > concern is *stability*. "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes in reference to submitters for the "new" stable: > This should be handled by one or at most two people who _really want_ > -stable to live and are willing to slowly dribble patches into it. > We've already been "outsourcing" the job of producing CTM deltas for > -stable to Richard Wackerbarth, why not make all of -stable that way? I can go for that. Right now, the worst thing about -current is that it _usually_ is unstable. I have a friend who, like myself, has been in computers since the "dark ages" of 029 keypunches. His attitude is to ALWAYS wait 6 months for a new release to get really shaken out before he even considers installing it. That attitude has merits. It was my hope that FreeBSD would offer a viable alternative to BSDI. "Stable" seemed to be a big step in that direction. I would hate to see the concept dropped rather than refined. As I see it, the organization needs 3 trees at all times. 1) The latest "bleeding edge" development hack. 2) The current release-in-progress. 3) The tried-and-true production system. As a new system is being released the second time, it would become the likely replacement for 3). Both 2) and 3) require a lot more release engineering disipline than the -current folks seem to display. Since I am already heavily into supporting the existence of -stable, I'll step up to offer a bit more in the way of resources to host it if necessary. Unlike Jordan, I would encourage, but not require, developers to contribute additions such as new device drivers. Such additions would extend the viable life of the release, hopefully until an ISP would be willing to run on the next release. At that point, we would leap forward and the cycle would start over again. However, major changes should not be welcome in this tree. It ought to be viewed more as support for existing users rather than a "new features" system. Who knows, I might even advocate that "we" (stable hands) issue our own CD's. I hope it doewsn't come to that. -- Richard Wackerbarth rkw@dataplex.net -- ...computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and weigh only 1/2 tons. -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949 From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 04:51:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA08730 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA08725; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA02059; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:51:08 -0700 (PDT) To: "Richard Wackerbarth" cc: "FreeBSD Hackers" , "p.richards@elsevier.co.uk" , "stable@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Re(2): The demise of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "07 Jun 1996 06:31:09 CDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 04:51:08 -0700 Message-ID: <2056.834148268@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Unlike Jordan, I would encourage, but not require, developers to contribute > additions such as new device drivers. Such additions would extend the viable Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves - there are a lot of issues to deal with before the question of branch commit philosophy even raises its head. We're also not bearing in mind that _anything_ which involves the CVS tree is going to involve the repository meister, and AFAIK nobody has gotten his vote on all of this yet. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 04:56:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA09041 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diablo.ppp.de (diablo.ppp.de [193.141.101.34]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA09024; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.lemis.de by diablo.ppp.de with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0uS091-000QZwC; Fri, 7 Jun 96 13:55 MET DST From: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Organisation: LEMIS, Schellnhausen 2, 36325 Feldatal, Germany Phone: +49-6637-919123 Fax: +49-6637-919122 Received: (grog@localhost) by allegro.lemis.de (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA00708; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:15:39 +0200 Message-Id: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> Subject: The -stable problem: my view To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:15:38 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sorry for the cross-posting, but I think we need to involve people in all three groups, since -current and -hackers will both be involved when -stable goes away. I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, even though some good arguments have been put forward for its retention. To sum up my viewpoint, I see two problems with the present setup. For the most part, these aren't original ideas, but so much mail has gone by on the subject that I think it's a good idea to summarize: 1. -current and -stable diverge too much. This means that -stable really isn't, it's -dusty, and the occasions on which -current updates get folded into -stable are fiascos like we've experienced in the last week. That wasn't the intention. 2. -current goes through periods of greater and less stability. It's not practical for somebody who wants to run a stable system to track -current. On the other hand, the more stable periods of -current work very well. The real problem, as I see it, is finding a compromise between these two problems. Lots of people want a stable version of FreeBSD, but they also want bugs fixed. Many -stable users also want new features, such as support for new hardware. The -stable branch has diverged too far. What we need are shorter branches: say, we start a -stable branch at a point on the -current branch where things are relatively stable. Then we update it with bug fixes only for a relatively short period (say 4 to 8 weeks). *Then we ditch it and start again at a new point on the -current tree*. These branches could be called things like 2.2.1-stable, 2.2.2-stable, etc. Like this, we could have our relative stability while keeping the -stable branches more up to date. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From Jordan's perspective, this is the main problem. From my personal perspective, it's completely irrelevant. I have another *big* problem: I've been trying to rebuild -stable for 5 days now, and I'm still not much closer to success than I was at the beginning. Yesterday I threw away everything I had and started again with a new checkout and a new make world. It's still barfing in an xterm behind this one as I write. My problem is simple: the build procedure is screwed up. It makes the assumption that I really want to run the version I'm building on the machine I'm building it on. It confuses the build environment with the execution environment. It installs components of the new system in the execution environment before the build is finished. As a result, if anything goes wrong, you end up with a system in an indeterminate state. This is a particular nuisance if header files have changed, and I think this is the biggest problem so far. There's no need for this. I've already modified my build environment to only use the header files in the /usr/src hierarchy, and it's easy enough to ensure that the executables and libraries also only come from the build environment. In case you're interested in the header files, you do ln -s /usr/src/sys/i386/include /usr/src/include/machine and in the Makefiles, you add CFLAGS += -nostdinc -I/usr/src/include -I/sys -I/sys/sys -I/sys/i386/include Possibly I've missed some header files in this, but that's just a matter of including them. Similar considerations would apply to paths for libraries and executables, but I haven't got that far yet. In addition, the build process depends far too much on removing components and rebuilding them. This makes builds take forever. For example, to rebuild a kernel, you first remove all the kernel objects. Why? BSD/OS has an almost identical build procedure, but it doesn't expect you to remove what you have. You do have to perform a make depend, of course, but even that can be automated. If somebody can point me to an example of where the dependency rules don't work, I'd be interested to see it. One possible argument is: what do you do if the definitions in the Makefile change? This can require files to be recompiled. Sure, if the IDENT definition in the Makefile changes, you can expect to have to recompile a whole lot of stuff, but there are ways to ensure that that isn't necessary. The most obvious, if not the most elegant, is to make all objects depend on the Makefile, and not to change the Makefile if nothing in the Makefile changes. A somewhat more sophisticated method would be to put the definitions in a file which is included by the Makefile, and depend only on that. Does anybody have any dependencies that couldn't be solved by this kind of method? So now you'll come and say, "OK, do it". I'm not just bitching: I am prepared to revise the whole build procedure. I think it would not take much longer than I've spent trying to build the current version. What do you people think? Greg From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 06:29:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA14497 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA14470; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA15554; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:29:35 -0700 (PDT) To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 12:15:38 +0200." <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 06:29:35 -0700 Message-ID: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the documentation. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 08:14:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA21836 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from al.imforei.apana.org.au (al.imforei.apana.org.au [202.12.89.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA21774 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from pjchilds@localhost) by al.imforei.apana.org.au (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA14444 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:43:06 +0930 (CST) From: Peter Childs Message-Id: <199606071513.AAA14444@al.imforei.apana.org.au> Subject: Problems with ctm 114 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:43:06 +0930 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL13 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Gday. It breaks on a a make depend in a lib2fc directory because although the 114 ctm removes the F77_aloc.c and exit.c from /libF77 it doesn't remove 'em from the Makefile in the /lib2fc directory. Other one is in /lib/libc/stdio/fgets.c breaks because it has register int n; which conflicts stdio.h's expectations.. change it to register size_t n; and it lets you go further... The problem is I don't want to modify these files because I know that next time I update ctm the MD5's spit :) Guess I'll save a copy of 'em somewhere... On with the war... Peter -- Peter Childs --- http://www.imforei.apana.org.au/~pjchilds Active APANA SA Member --- Author PopWatch + Inf-HTML Email: pjchilds@imforei.apana.org.au Fax: 61-8-82784742 From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 08:18:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA22263 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from palette.wcupa.edu (palette.wcupa.edu [144.26.17.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA22257 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by palette.wcupa.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA24452; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:15:24 -0400 Received: by spectrum.wcupa.edu with Microsoft Mail id <31B86E84@spectrum.wcupa.edu>; Fri, 07 Jun 96 11:01:40 PDT From: "Schwenk, Peter" To: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Subject: RE: Installing FreeBSD-stable Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 10:49:00 PDT Message-Id: <31B86E84@spectrum.wcupa.edu> Encoding: 37 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What is meant by merging the /etc and /dev files? I'm beginning to tackle the -stable issues, and I'm not really sure what is meant by this. - Peter Schwenk, Academic Computing, West Chester University of PA - pschwenk@wcupa.edu ---------- From: Nate Williams[SMTP:nate@sri.MT.net] Sent: Friday, June 07, 1996 12:05 AM To: Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable > I see source for FreeBSD-stable, but no binaries. So, stable is just > like current, except more stable and less current? ;-) Yep. > What I mean is, you don't have ready-made binary tarballs, and > ready-to-go installation tools? Nope. > Is it a simple matter to just build > stable sources on a 2.1.0-release system? Yep. You update your sources via sup or CTM and then do a 'make world'. If everything works like it's supposed to you have a system that's 95% of the way there. Then, build and install a -stable kernel and you're 98% of the way there. The remaining 2% is making sure your /etc and /dev files are merged, but this has to be done by hand right now. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 08:29:45 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23054 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA23028; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA29241; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:29:32 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:29:32 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > documentation. I disagree that it's somehow so awful as to be un-doable, and I've been doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, and this can't be automated in any real fashion in a safe manner for something like -stable by it's very nature, as John Polstra already pointed out. *Every* single patch I've brought into stable I eye-ball reviewed before I committed them (fat lot of good it did me for all those stupid syntax errors and such), but at least I knew what the functionality was supposed to do. This kind of work is necessary for -stable to exist, and apparently at least Jordan and David are completely unwillingly to do this. Do any of the developers (and Peter the CVS-meister) have anything to say? Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 09:05:50 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA26961 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA26951 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quimby.os2bbs.com (quimby.os2bbs.com [204.194.180.21]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA28818 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:05:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:05:42 -0700 Received: from [150.125.17.106] by quimby.os2bbs.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.14/1.0) for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; id AA3034; Fri, 07 Jun 96 12:02:41 -0400 Message-Id: <.AA3034@quimby.os2bbs.com> X-Sender: winterg@mail.os2bbs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org From: winterg@os2bbs.com (Gib Winter) Subject: Problem compiling the latest -stable Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To start off, I'd like to commend everyone working on the -stable tree (heck on all of FreeBSD), but especially during the latest -stable hiccup. (I think -stable is the greatest idea since sliced bread - but understand the workload problem.) Now on to my troubles: Unfortunately, I'm a relatively new FreeBSD convert and my first sup of the -stable tree was on June 2nd. I've gotten updates every day in the hopes that I will eventually get a "make world" to complete without error. My latest sup was yesterday afternoon (6 Jun) and I made it all the way to the following error: >cc -O -I/usr/src/usr.bin/dig/../../usr.sbin/nslookup -o dig dig.o debug.o lis >t.o send.o subr.o >debug.o: Undefined symbol `_iso_ntoa' referenced from text segment >list.o: Undefined symbol `_iso_ntoa' referenced from text segment >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. >/usr/src/usr.bin/dig# > Actually, this is a re-enactment of the error for demo purposes (I just typed make in the dig directory (compiling NSLOOKUP also gives me the same errors). I looked at the list.c and debug.c files and found a define for netiso/iso.h that includes the offending reference(iso_ntoa), but my C is so rusty I wouldn't know the problem if it bit me (I was hoping for the obvious). Any help is greatly appreciated. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 09:13:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27796 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from watson.grauel.com (watson.grauel.com [199.233.104.36]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27790 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparcmill.grauel.com (sparcmill.grauel.com [199.233.104.34]) by watson.grauel.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA14454; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by sparcmill.grauel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA29370; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:13:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:13:15 -0500 From: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns) Message-Id: <199606071613.LAA29370@sparcmill.grauel.com> To: "Richard Wackerbarth" CC: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Wackerbarth writes: > > Richard J. Kuhns writes: > > > from FreeBSD-stable/ctm on freebsd.org represents the most current bits > (if > > > it doesn't, please ignore the rest of this message :-), I still have a > > > problem. I first ran "rm -rf /usr/src", then used the "install.sh" > script > > > from the 2.1 CD to reload everything. I then used ctm to apply all of > the > > > patches since src-2.1.0015C.gz (I've been saving them as I get them) -- > no > > > problems. "make world" fails in libF77: "don't know how to make > > > F77_aloc.c". > > > > > Oops, the "make world" actually fails in libf2c, not libF77. Sorry. > > There were quite a few changes that went into today's (115) update. I think > 114 may have had only most, but not all, of Jordan's backing out. > For what it's worth, the 115 update didn't touch libf2c. I grabbed the libf2c Makefile from the -stable src on freebsd.org, and it was correct. I guess I don't understand how ctm updates are created; starting fresh from the CD and applying updates thru 115 (the most recent), I don't end up with what's sitting in -stable/src. More FWIW: `make world' still doesn't, even after I replaced the libf2c Makefile; it crashes while working on libc. Are these reports actually helping anyone? If so, fine, I'll keep chugging. If not, I'm just going to apply updates thru 90-something, make world, and wait for the SNAP... -- Rich Kuhns rjk@grauel.com PO Box 6249 Tel: (317)477-6000 x319 100 Sawmill Road Lafayette, IN 47903 From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 09:16:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA28083 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quimby.os2bbs.com (quimby.os2bbs.com [204.194.180.21]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA28074 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from winterg.spawar.navy.mil by quimby.os2bbs.com (IBM OS/2 SENDMAIL VERSION 1.3.14/1.0) for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; id AA3113; Fri, 07 Jun 96 12:14:57 -0400 Message-Id: <.AA3113@quimby.os2bbs.com> X-Sender: winterg@mail.os2bbs.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org From: winterg@os2bbs.com (Gib Winter) Subject: Problem compiling the latest -stable Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk To start off, I'd like to commend everyone working on the -stable tree (heck on all of FreeBSD), but especially during the latest -stable hiccup. (I think -stable is the greatest idea since sliced bread - but understand the workload problem.) Now on to my troubles: Unfortunately, I'm a relatively new FreeBSD convert and my first sup of the -stable tree was on June 2nd. I've gotten updates every day in the hopes that I will eventually get a "make world" to complete without error. My latest sup was yesterday afternoon (6 Jun) and I made it all the way to the following error: >cc -O -I/usr/src/usr.bin/dig/../../usr.sbin/nslookup -o dig dig.o debug.o lis >t.o send.o subr.o >debug.o: Undefined symbol `_iso_ntoa' referenced from text segment >list.o: Undefined symbol `_iso_ntoa' referenced from text segment >*** Error code 1 > >Stop. >/usr/src/usr.bin/dig# > Actually, this is a re-enactment of the error for demo purposes (I just typed make in the dig directory (compiling NSLOOKUP also gives me the same errors). I looked at the list.c and debug.c files and found a define for netiso/iso.h that includes the offending reference(iso_ntoa), but my C is so rusty I wouldn't know the problem if it bit me (I was hoping for the obvious). Any help is greatly appreciated. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 09:41:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00359 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00333; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.mcs.com (root@Venus.mcs.com [192.160.127.92]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA03313; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:41:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: by venus.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Fri, 7 Jun 96 10:42 CDT Message-Id: Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:42:00 -0500 (CDT) From: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> from "Greg Lehey" at Jun 7, 96 12:15:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Sorry for the cross-posting, but I think we need to involve people in > all three groups, since -current and -hackers will both be involved > when -stable goes away. > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > even though some good arguments have been put forward for its > retention. Uh, yuck. If STABLE goes away, and I cannot get a known-to-build-and-run version at a given point in time, FreeBSD goes away here. Why? Because I *cannot possibly* track -current given the state of broken code we sometimes end up with (I have tried!) and that means keeping *at least* two machines and doing continual regression tests on the -current tree. I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is the difficulty in running nntplink on -STABLE; sometime a couple of months ago something in the select() call broke, has not been fixed, and nntplink won't run any longer (and yes, we have been asking infrequently and did report this when it happened). This means that one particular machine that could *really* use the recent VM fixes can't have them, because if I load that kernel on our main news system it stops talking to anyone. Not good. > 1. -current and -stable diverge too much. This means that -stable > really isn't, it's -dusty, and the occasions on which -current > updates get folded into -stable are fiascos like we've experienced > in the last week. That wasn't the intention. Yes. But throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't the answer either. > 2. -current goes through periods of greater and less stability. It's > not practical for somebody who wants to run a stable system to > track -current. On the other hand, the more stable periods of > -current work very well. Correct as well. > What we need are shorter branches: say, we start a -stable branch at a > point on the -current branch where things are relatively stable. Then > we update it with bug fixes only for a relatively short period (say 4 > to 8 weeks). *Then we ditch it and start again at a new point on the > -current tree*. These branches could be called things like > 2.2.1-stable, 2.2.2-stable, etc. Like this, we could have our > relative stability while keeping the -stable branches more up to date. This will work if it is *clearly* documented when and if these things happen, and what you can (and cannot) keep at a given time (ie: if I must reload all the shared libraries then that effectively requires that I dump the machine and reload; this is a MAJOR problem if you're trying to track incremental improvements). .... > is included by the Makefile, and depend only on that. Does anybody > have any dependencies that couldn't be solved by this kind of method? ... > So now you'll come and say, "OK, do it". I'm not just bitching: I am > prepared to revise the whole build procedure. I think it would not > take much longer than I've spent trying to build the current version. > What do you people think? > > Greg I think it would be a *great* idea. A full build on a lightly-loaded P166 now requires nearly three hours, and that's too long for a SUP which only changes two files! -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity Modem: [+1 312 248-0900] | T1 from $600 monthly; speeds to DS-3 available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1] | 21 Chicagoland POPs, ISDN, 28.8, much more Fax: [+1 312 248-9865] | Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ ISDN - Get it here TODAY! | Home of Chicago's only FULL Clarinet feed! From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 10:02:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01959 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01938; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA29627; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:02:39 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:02:39 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606071702.LAA29627@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Build times (was Re: The -stable problem: my view) In-Reply-To: References: <199606071015.MAA00708@allegro.lemis.de> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A full build on a lightly-loaded P166 now requires nearly three hours, > and that's too long for a SUP which only changes two files! If you are familiar with the build process, then you *don't* have to run a 'make world' everytime. Someone as familiar with system builds should be able to figure out the effects of changed files, but unfortunately this means you need to baby-sit the SUP update files to determine what changed instead of simplying firing off a make world after every update. I *never* run a make world, and rarely even run a global make, but when things do change I will do the necessary individual steps in a make world to bring my system back into 'make world' status. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 10:21:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03423 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03418 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA12070; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606071719.KAA12070@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Schwenk, Peter" cc: "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Jun 96 10:49:00 -0700. <31B86E84@spectrum.wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 10:18:58 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >What is meant by merging the /etc and /dev files? I'm beginning to >tackle the -stable issues, and I'm not really sure what is meant by >this. It means if you have changes in your /etc directory from the distribution (you have to have *some* changes), that you need to carefully merge them with updated /usr/src/etc/ files by hand. It's not a process that can be automated. Also, it's possible, though it shouldn't happen very often, that major or minor numbers for devices could change. It's also possible, and more likely, that new devices will be added. For either of these situations, you may have to make new device entries in /dev/. >> Is it a simple matter to just build >> stable sources on a 2.1.0-release system? >From: Nate Williams[SMTP:nate@sri.MT.net] >Yep. You update your sources via sup or CTM and then do a 'make world'. >If everything works like it's supposed to you have a system that's 95% >of the way there. Then, build and install a -stable kernel and you're >98% of the way there. The remaining 2% is making sure your /etc and >/dev files are merged, but this has to be done by hand right now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 10:24:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03673 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03666 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA12093; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606071722.KAA12093@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: winterg@os2bbs.com (Gib Winter) cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Problem compiling the latest -stable In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Jun 96 09:05:42 -0700. <.AA3034@quimby.os2bbs.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 10:22:44 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >>cc -O -I/usr/src/usr.bin/dig/../../usr.sbin/nslookup -o dig dig.o >debug.o lis >>t.o send.o subr.o >>debug.o: Undefined symbol `_iso_ntoa' referenced from text segment >>list.o: Undefined symbol `_iso_ntoa' referenced from text segment >>*** Error code 1 >> >>Stop. >Actually, this is a re-enactment of the error for demo purposes (I just >typed make in the dig directory (compiling NSLOOKUP also gives me the same >errors). First, did you install new includes before starting your make world? Second, you can tell the system to continue with other parts, even if a piece fails. The best way to do this is to type this in the shell that you do your make world in (assuming you're using a csh): setenv MAKEFLAGS '-k' (if you're using a sh-based shell): export MAKEFLAGS='-k' ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 11:28:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08333 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08311; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA03612; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:22:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:22:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 96 06:29:35 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > documentation. The problem with CVS is access protocol. I've suggested (many times) that the way to resolve this is to establish reader/writer locks and a shell script interface for use by committers or other programs, and to require a successful build as part of the commit protocol: Checkout/merge: begin cvs lock read [ ... checkout ... ] cvs unlock end Checkin: begin cvs lock write [ ... checkout/merge ... ] [ ... successful build (including any necessary changes) ... ] [ ... checking ... ] cvs unlock end Locking protocol (locks are per repository, not global): cvs lock read <-- multiple read locks may be held; their effect is to allow other read locks and prevent any write locks. cvs lock write <--- one write lock can be held; there must be no read locks, or the write lock will fail. Yes, this serializes writes to a given repository. Reads will *always* return a *buildable* source tree. Tree copy for SUP/CTM delta building must be done with a read lock asserted. The global log message will give the character of a change spanning multiple files. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 11:50:07 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA09396 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.cts.com (mailhub.cts.com [192.188.72.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA09391 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.cts.com(really [198.68.174.34]) by mailhub.cts.com via smail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 7 Jun 96 11:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.1.92 1996-Mar-19 #3 built 1996-Apr-21) Received: (from root@localhost) by io.cts.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA00478 for stable@freebsd.org; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:50:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Morgan Davis Message-Id: <199606071850.LAA00478@io.cts.com> Subject: ftp.c -- parse error breaks make world To: stable@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:50:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk make world: /usr/src/usr.bin/ftp/ftp.c:1201: parse error before `}' *** Error code 1 Stop. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 12:05:40 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA11425 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11393; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA25368; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:05:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" cc: Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Karl Denninger, MCSNet wrote: > If STABLE goes away, and I cannot get a known-to-build-and-run version at a > given point in time, FreeBSD goes away here. > -RELEASE is 'known-to-build-and-run'...and, I believe, so are -SNAPs, so you build all yuor machines with -RELEASE, and if you feel you need to upgrade, through -SNAP on one of your machines, run it for a week so that you are confident with it, and then upgrade the rest of your machines. I believe you do have several PCs running FreeBSD now, don't you? > I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can > I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put > someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. > Sounds like the time to get a -SNAP installed... > Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is > accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is > the difficulty in running nntplink on -STABLE; sometime a couple of months > ago something in the select() call broke, has not been fixed, and nntplink > won't run any longer (and yes, we have been asking infrequently and did > report this when it happened). This means that one particular machine that > could *really* use the recent VM fixes can't have them, because if I load > that kernel on our main news system it stops talking to anyone. > *scratch head* if something in the select() call broke several months ago (and I *am* running -STABLE and -CURRENT machines), why wouldn't it affect everything that uses select()? I've been using innfeed here (much better then nntplink, IMHO) for the past month or so with absolutely no problems, or, no problems related to select() > > 2. -current goes through periods of greater and less stability. It's > > not practical for somebody who wants to run a stable system to > > track -current. On the other hand, the more stable periods of > > -current work very well. > > Correct as well. > Not *really* correct...that is what the -SNAPs are for...someone (Jordan?) determines that the *current* state of -current is stable enough to package as an install kit...similar to how someday, someone will decide that 2.2 is ready for release. Or, better yet, -current *is* 2.2 and the SNAPs are 2.2.x, and > > What we need are shorter branches: say, we start a -stable branch at a > > point on the -current branch where things are relatively stable. Then > > we update it with bug fixes only for a relatively short period (say 4 > > to 8 weeks). *Then we ditch it and start again at a new point on the > > -current tree*. These branches could be called things like > > 2.2.1-stable, 2.2.2-stable, etc. Like this, we could have our > > relative stability while keeping the -stable branches more up to date. > > This will work if it is *clearly* documented when and if these things > happen, and what you can (and cannot) keep at a given time (ie: if I must > reload all the shared libraries then that effectively requires that I dump > the machine and reload; this is a MAJOR problem if you're trying to track > incremental improvements). > Again, isn't this what Jordan is doing with his -SNAPs...stating that at this point in time, it is felt that -current has proven to be stable enough to make an install kit out of? Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 12:54:55 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA16160 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16130; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA00238; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:53:25 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:53:25 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606071953.NAA00238@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <15552.834154175@time.cdrom.com> <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > I buy most of Jordan's arguments about getting rid of -stable (though > > > I'm not sure why CVS should be the problem. Sure, I don't like it > > > either, but the way I see it, that's mainly a problem of > > > documentation), and so I'm not going to argue against killing -stable, > > > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > > documentation. > > The problem with CVS is access protocol. No, the problem is that CVS doesn't handle diverging source trees very well. The access to the tree is *completely* and *utterly* irrelevant to the problems at hand, and just because you want it changed doesn't mean you should get on your soapbox and call for it's implentation. Stick the to *problem* that's being discussed, not one that you (and only you) consider to be a real problem with CVS. You're tryin to break the model that CVS was designed for, and this part of the model is *NOT* one of the problems FreeBSD is facing now. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 12:56:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA16446 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ki.net (root@ki.net [205.150.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA16441 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by ki.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA26417; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:56:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Marc G. Fournier" To: Morgan Davis cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp.c -- parse error breaks make world In-Reply-To: <199606071850.LAA00478@io.cts.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Morgan Davis wrote: > make world: > > /usr/src/usr.bin/ftp/ftp.c:1201: parse error before `}' > *** Error code 1 > re-sup, this was fixed late last night... Marc G. Fournier scrappy@ki.net Systems Administrator @ ki.net scrappy@freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 13:08:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17108 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17094 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with ESMTP id NAA04166 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.mcs.com (Mailbox.mcs.com [192.160.127.87]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA12414; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:04:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Fri, 7 Jun 96 15:04 CDT Received: by mercury.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Fri, 7 Jun 96 15:04 CDT Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:04:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Alex Nash X-Sender: nash@Mercury.mcs.com To: Morgan Davis cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp.c -- parse error breaks make world In-Reply-To: <199606071850.LAA00478@io.cts.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Morgan Davis wrote: > make world: > > /usr/src/usr.bin/ftp/ftp.c:1201: parse error before `}' > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > Jordan fixed that this morning. Alex From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 13:10:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17438 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA17408; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00297; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:08:04 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:08:04 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072008.OAA00297@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606071954.MAA03809@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606071953.NAA00238@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606071954.MAA03809@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > > Try using it _seriously_ someday and no explanation will be necessary. > > > > Suffice it to say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the > > > > documentation. > > > > > > The problem with CVS is access protocol. > > > > No, the problem is that CVS doesn't handle diverging source trees very > > well. The access to the tree is *completely* and *utterly* irrelevant > > to the problems at hand, and just because you want it changed doesn't > > mean you should get on your soapbox and call for it's implentation. > > > > Stick the to *problem* that's being discussed, not one that you (and > > only you) consider to be a real problem with CVS. > > > > You're tryin to break the model that CVS was designed for, and this part > > of the model is *NOT* one of the problems FreeBSD is facing now. > > Nate: you're wrong. > > The main argument against "let's get rid of -stable" is that -stable > is known to be buildable. If -current were known to be buildable, > it would support the argument for getting rid of -stable. No, the main arguement is that -stable is known to be -stable. -Current is almost always (95%) 'buildable', but it's not necessarily 'stable'. Current contains 'experimentable' (aka. known to be unstable) changes in it that stable doesn't (shouldn't) have. Heck, the tree would be buildable if the compiler wouldn't quit dumping core on you. :) As a matter of fact, the difference of the ability of 'stable' vs. 'current' regarding it's buildable state has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to do with CVS in *ANY SHAPE OR FORM*. 0, nada, zip, nothing! It is the policy of the FreeBSD project that *any* of the commits done to the tree guarantee that the tree stays 'buildable'. However, this is not strictly enforced (by the developers). However, with -stable more care is taken to keep the tree 'buildable' than is generally taken in -current, but that's due to the developers, not to the tools. The percentage of getting an 'unbuildable' tree due to the tools is noise compared to the liklihood of a developer not doing ensuring the tree is buildable. They aren't even in the same scope, with the developer being responsible for 'unbuildableness' 99.9% of the time. > CVS can reconcile source trees (merge branch tags) just fine... we > did that sort of thing at Novell with a CVS version of three years > ago, no problems. No it *can't*. Don't tell me it can, because the trees have *radically* diverted over the last 15 months to the point that CVS *CAN'T* merge branches. It's *NOT POSSIBLE* to automate the process. So, telling me otherwise is simply showing your ignorance of the *TRUE* problem, which is *COMPLETELY* and *UTTERLY* unrelated to CVS's ability or lack thereof of 'locking' the tree. Please don't make me have to use my caps-lock key this much anymore. You couldn't be more wrong about the issue. (Well, maybe you could, but it would be hard and require serious intention to actually be wrong.) Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 14:18:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22272 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA22248; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA04073; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:12:45 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072112.OAA04073@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:12:45 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072008.OAA00297@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 02:08:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The main argument against "let's get rid of -stable" is that -stable > > is known to be buildable. If -current were known to be buildable, > > it would support the argument for getting rid of -stable. > > No, the main arguement is that -stable is known to be -stable. -Current > is almost always (95%) 'buildable', but it's not necessarily 'stable'. > Current contains 'experimentable' (aka. known to be unstable) changes in > it that stable doesn't (shouldn't) have. Heck, the tree would be > buildable if the compiler wouldn't quit dumping core on you. :) Regrettably, -current has had long bouts of it being unbuildable. The most recent (two week long) bout involved yacc build rule changes. There have also been partial commits of header file changes. The problem is the result of the partial commits, not the result of any inherent instability in -current (barring things like large VM commits, which are going to be destabilizing of -stable if -stable ever includes them as a reintegration). > As a matter of fact, the difference of the ability of 'stable' > vs. 'current' regarding it's buildable state has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to > do with CVS in *ANY SHAPE OR FORM*. 0, nada, zip, nothing! Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. In other words, if a CVS tree can never be "check-out-able" and "unbuildable" at the same time, it will never be possible to have a checkout *not* build. > It is the policy of the FreeBSD project that *any* of the commits done > to the tree guarantee that the tree stays 'buildable'. However, this is > not strictly enforced (by the developers). However, with -stable more > care is taken to keep the tree 'buildable' than is generally taken in > -current, but that's due to the developers, not to the tools. If the developers won't enforce it, the tools and usage protocols should enforce it for them. That's the whole point of having a policy in the first place: to establish tree interaction protocols that don't have race conditions or holes in them. > The percentage of getting an 'unbuildable' tree due to the tools is > noise compared to the liklihood of a developer not doing ensuring the > tree is buildable. They aren't even in the same scope, with the > developer being responsible for 'unbuildableness' 99.9% of the time. Which is why the tools should force the developer to make the assurance. > > CVS can reconcile source trees (merge branch tags) just fine... we > > did that sort of thing at Novell with a CVS version of three years > > ago, no problems. > > No it *can't*. Don't tell me it can, because the trees have > *radically* diverted over the last 15 months to the point that CVS > *CAN'T* merge branches. It's *NOT POSSIBLE* to automate the process. This is a result of lack of discipline in terms of regularaly updating -stable. I think the confusion here is over what -stable is: is -stable a set of maintenance patches to the last -release, or is it a stable version of the -current tree? If the former, then it is unreasonable to expect it to contain all of the fixes that are in -current: specifically, *any* of the fixes that inhernetly affect system structure should *not* go into -stable. If the latter, then, what we are talking about is a mechanism for enforcing tagging of -current at synchronization points where the developers are known to have enforced the policy of "the tree must be buildable" (as you state, this is the responsibility of the developers to follow the checkin protocol that is being subverted). Pick one. > So, telling me otherwise is simply showing your ignorance of the *TRUE* > problem, which is *COMPLETELY* and *UTTERLY* unrelated to CVS's > ability or lack thereof of 'locking' the tree. CVS tree locking would force the developers to more closely adhere to the policy by limiting allowable tree interaction protocols that do not conform to stated policy. In other words, if the developers won't police themselves, the tools should force the policy upon them. I am open to other suggested soloutions (see below). > Please don't make me have to use my caps-lock key this much anymore. > You couldn't be more wrong about the issue. (Well, maybe you could, but > it would be hard and require serious intention to actually be wrong.) I think that you are misinterpreting my argument based on a former misinterpretation of the same argument in an earlier context, instead of taking it at face value in the current context. Instead of offering an implementation, perhaps you would be more comfortable with meta-discussion: ========================================================================== Inre: buildability of -current 1) -current is often not buildable 2) we posit this is disruptive, both to the developement and testing processes, and to the good name and faith of FreeBSD. 3) we posit that there are protocols, which, if obeyed, would cause -current to *always* be buildable 4) we evidentiarily conclude that these protocols are not being obeyed 5) we further conclude that IF the protocols are in fact as desirable as to cause their implementation, AND that the policy was, in fact, good policy, THEN some unspecified form of coercion causing developers to obey the protocols is ALSO desirable, given demonstrable failures of the existing non-coercive policy implementation Inre: buildablitiy of -stable 1) we generally acknowledge that -stable starts as -release, just as -current starts as -release 2) we posit that -stable is not buildable in approximately the same propotion to its change frequency (*not* rate) as -current is not buildable 3) we conclude that -stable may also benefit from enforcement of use of protocols designed to implement policy Inre: function of -stable 1) we acknowled the function of -stable to be as an intermediate tree, between -release and -current 2) we posit that the relationship -stable bears to -release vs. that it bears to -current is generally acknowledged to be indeterminate at this time, with cause cited as there being a dichotomy in administrative policy applied to -stable that has not been resolved 3) we posit that the relationship goals for -current and -release are conflicting, and that this is the source of the policy dichotomy 4) we conclude that the function of -stable needs to be defined, since it is meeting neiter relationship criteria to the general satisfaction of the parties involved 5) we note that one potential resoloution would be to eliminate the implied -stable/-current relationship entirely (as has been proposed by others) in favor of causing -current itself to fulfill that role by meeting the -stable buildability criteria, assuming the previously referenced problems are resolved first Implementation: TBD ========================================================================== Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 14:21:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA22584 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macbeth.ienet.com (macbeth.ienet.com [207.78.32.52]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA22577 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brutus.ienet.com (brutus.ienet.com [207.78.32.152]) by macbeth.ienet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA16815; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <31B89DC7.2956@ienet.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:23:51 -0700 From: Terry Lee Organization: Internet Design Group X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: p.richards@elsevier.co.uk CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Johan Granlund , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The demise of -stable References: <199606061914.VAA07596@hermes.algonet.se> <18208.834096340@time.cdrom.com> <199606071009.LAA25144@tees> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Richards wrote: > Well, I've already said to Jordan that I'd be willing to look after a -stable > branch but *only* for bug fixes and only for bug fixes that can be > done without a lot of re-architecting, those more complex bug fixes should > be done in -current. There are companies I've sold FreeBSD systems to that > actually use -stable as a bug fix tracking system, it's a hell of a lot > nicer to sup or ctm -stable than it is to deal with Sun's bug fix system > and we could make -stable a valuable resource along these lines. > > The sort of bug fixes that would be OK would be the fixes Justin has made to > the adaptec driver, the sort of thing I wouldn't like to allow would be > "choice bits" since that's not what people tracking -stable are really > looking for, they want the bugs in the functionality they have fixed not > new stuff, they'll wait until the next full release for that, their main > concern is *stability*. This would be great, and I think cover the vast majority of needs in userland. The only thing I would add is that it would also be valuable if new hardware device drivers could be committed to the tree. Of course *only* if it can be done without a lot of re-architecting, and the committing core-team member is reasonably confident that the driver will not undermine the stability of the rest of the system. I sight an example of something that has been very valuable: the fxp driver for the Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B Cards. Since Intel has been selling these for only $49, the driver has been invaluable to lots of FreeBSD users. When a new release comes out, you could just junk the tree. All the best, Terry -- I N T E R N E T Terry Lee, Technical Director D E S I G N 611 W. 6th St., Ste. 3201, Los Angeles, CA 90017 G R O U P 213.488.6100 voice 213.488.6101 fax http://www.mall.net mailto:terryl@ienet.com From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 14:28:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23128 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA23093; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00653; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:27:15 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:27:15 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072127.PAA00653@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072112.OAA04073@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606072008.OAA00297@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606072112.OAA04073@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > The main argument against "let's get rid of -stable" is that -stable > > > is known to be buildable. If -current were known to be buildable, > > > it would support the argument for getting rid of -stable. > > > > No, the main arguement is that -stable is known to be -stable. -Current > > is almost always (95%) 'buildable', but it's not necessarily 'stable'. > > Current contains 'experimentable' (aka. known to be unstable) changes in > > it that stable doesn't (shouldn't) have. Heck, the tree would be > > buildable if the compiler wouldn't quit dumping core on you. :) > > Regrettably, -current has had long bouts of it being unbuildable. The > most recent (two week long) bout involved yacc build rule changes. > There have also been partial commits of header file changes. Due to the developer not doing his job. > The problem is the result of the partial commits, not the result of > any inherent instability in -current (barring things like large VM > commits, which are going to be destabilizing of -stable if -stable > ever includes them as a reintegration). Yes, it was due to the developer not finishing the job that was started. If the tree was locked down at the start of the commit, and then unlocked after the commit finished the job would still not be done. If I only do 50% of the job in one day, the remaining 50% still needs to be done, no matter what kind of tools I have. > > > As a matter of fact, the difference of the ability of 'stable' > > vs. 'current' regarding it's buildable state has *ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* to > > do with CVS in *ANY SHAPE OR FORM*. 0, nada, zip, nothing! > > Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree > until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that > the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a > checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, > then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. This is basically unenforceable at the tool level. The amount of work required to do the 'lint/build/test/etc' *AT* commit time is so beyond the scope of the entire project as to be humorous. > In other words, if a CVS tree can never be "check-out-able" and > "unbuildable" at the same time, it will never be possible to have > a checkout *not* build. Then *FORCE* the developers to *NEVER* check in changes which cause the tree to be unbuildable. That's the *only* solution. There is no other solution to the problem, and locking the tree down during the commit won't make it any more buildable. You have to *FORCE* the developers to only make changes which keep the tree buildable, and this is a problem whose scope is beyond the resources of FreeBSD. Changing to tools to force the developers to keep a buildable tree 'simply won't happen'. Period. End of discussion. The resources aren't there, and I doubt the developers would stand for it in any case because anything your tools do to enforce policy can be circumvented and generally only cause the developers more grief to 'jump through hoops' to get code accepted. This is counter-productive to the entire 'FreeBSD' philosophy. Now, if you want to hire all of us and dock our pay if we check in un-buildable changes then go for it, but until there is a compelling reason to 'do my best' to keep the tree buildable with the current tools then you are wasting bytes. The benefits of 'forcing' commits to be always buildable do not even come close to touching the costs involved. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 15:05:05 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27255 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27224; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA04189; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:59:14 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:59:14 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072127.PAA00653@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 03:27:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Regrettably, -current has had long bouts of it being unbuildable. The > > most recent (two week long) bout involved yacc build rule changes. > > There have also been partial commits of header file changes. > > Due to the developer not doing his job. I agree. > > The problem is the result of the partial commits, not the result of > > any inherent instability in -current (barring things like large VM > > commits, which are going to be destabilizing of -stable if -stable > > ever includes them as a reintegration). > > Yes, it was due to the developer not finishing the job that was started. > If the tree was locked down at the start of the commit, and then > unlocked after the commit finished the job would still not be done. If > I only do 50% of the job in one day, the remaining 50% still needs to be > done, no matter what kind of tools I have. Policy would dictate that the developer responsible would get hate mail from everyone who *did* follow policy, and was unable to commit as a result of the first developers actions. > > Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree > > until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that > > the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a > > checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, > > then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. > > This is basically unenforceable at the tool level. The amount of work > required to do the 'lint/build/test/etc' *AT* commit time is so beyond > the scope of the entire project as to be humorous. I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result of their proper use. Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. This can happen because, while I am ensuring buildability prior to doing my commits, another developer can be doing commits, and invalidate all of the work I have just done to provide my assurances. There is little incentive for me, as a developer, to do work that will likely be ineffectual, even if it's "policy". > > In other words, if a CVS tree can never be "check-out-able" and > > "unbuildable" at the same time, it will never be possible to have > > a checkout *not* build. > > Then *FORCE* the developers to *NEVER* check in changes which cause the > tree to be unbuildable. That's the *only* solution. There is no other > solution to the problem, and locking the tree down during the commit > won't make it any more buildable. You have to *FORCE* the developers to > only make changes which keep the tree buildable, and this is a problem > whose scope is beyond the resources of FreeBSD. Only because we allow simultaneous checkins so that the complexity of ensuring the tree is buildable is an order of magnitude higher than it needs to be. In reality, common usage will dictate that the tree is checked out of *vastly* more than it is checked into, so a checkin serialization that doesn't affect checkout is probably desirable. The side benefit that you could know that the tree was not in a partially inconsistent state (in the middle of a checkin) at the time you do your checkout is also worthwhile, especially for producing consistent SUP/CTM images of the CVS that maintain the same policy guarantees as the main tree. You *could* choose to checkout while a write tag was in force, or to checkout without asserting a read tag, allowing a write to occur in the middle of your checkout, leving you with an inconsistent tree. But you would have to consciously do so. > Changing to tools to force the developers to keep a buildable tree > 'simply won't happen'. Period. End of discussion. The resources > aren't there, and I doubt the developers would stand for it in any case > because anything your tools do to enforce policy can be circumvented and > generally only cause the developers more grief to 'jump through hoops' > to get code accepted. This isn't true. The developers doing checkin would need to jump through the additional hoop of assuring us that they were not turning the tree to shit (effectively). This is something policy says they should be doing anyway. > This is counter-productive to the entire 'FreeBSD' philosophy. Providing high quality free software? > Now, if you want to hire all of us and dock our pay if we check in > un-buildable changes then go for it, but until there is a compelling > reason to 'do my best' to keep the tree buildable with the current tools > then you are wasting bytes. As long as you are using the current tools, I'm wasting bytes. As far as "hiring everyone and forcing them to play by the rules using reactive enforcement", it's silly. Even if I could hire everyone, I'd still implement a *proactive*, NOT *reactive*, system for policy enforcement. If I *did* hire everyone, the first thing I'd do would be to merge the FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD efforts together to increase gross efficiency, not diddle around with policy models to increase net efficiency... I'd save that diddling for later. Since I can't do this, and I realize that you can't force volunteers to work together like you can force employees (with a whip made of money to use as a tool), I'd like to diddle with increasing net efficiency in FreeBSD. Especially now that you and others have haised the issue in the first place. > The benefits of 'forcing' commits to be always buildable do not even > come close to touching the costs involved. All I have ever suggested was configuring the tools in such a way as to force adherence to *some* aspects of policy. Obviously, I can't force use of consistency protocols down the line (as you point out, the cost of compilation for a commit makes the very idea humorous), even if I was declared "tool god" for the time needed to implement the protocols in the tools. If something like this could resolve the -stable relationship with -release vs. -current, or if it could increase the overall usability of the -stable and -current CVS trees for SUP/CTM consumers, it would be well worth the effort. You can't build a house with a hunk missing out of the foundation, and the point of FreeBSD is to provide a platform for others to build things, *as well* as allowing people to hack on the platform itself. It's as much for the people building the houses as it is for the people pouring the foundations. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 15:09:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27661 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27635; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00896; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:47 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606072127.PAA00653@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Again, with respect, if it is impossible to check out from a tree > > > until usage protocol (*not* CVS implementation) guarantees that > > > the tree is buildable, and the same usage protocol prevents a > > > checkin that isn't self-conssistent across all files in the archive, > > > then the tree will *ALWAYS* be buildable, period. > > > > This is basically unenforceable at the tool level. The amount of work > > required to do the 'lint/build/test/etc' *AT* commit time is so beyond > > the scope of the entire project as to be humorous. > > I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting > that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result > of their proper use. > > Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance > with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to change as far as that part of commit process goes. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 15:21:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28580 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28541; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA04267; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:15:43 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072215.PAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:15:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 04:07:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting > > that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result > > of their proper use. > > > > Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance > > with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. > > Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has > happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that > we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've > started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to > change as far as that part of commit process goes. Look, I hate coming back to the recent yacc stuff because it makes it look like I'm pointing fingers, but it's just the most recent example in a long line of examples that belie your statement. If this weren't such a hot issue, everyone wouldn't be so ready to fly off the handle over it (you and me included). I don't want to argue the thing into the ground; you have my opinions, my reasoning behind those opinions, and my suggested approach to solving at least part of the problem (with one example method using the suggested approach). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 15:26:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28990 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA28966; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA00983; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:24:49 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:24:49 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072224.QAA00983@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072215.PAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606072215.PAA04267@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > I am not suggesting enforcing this at the tool level; I'm suggesting > > > that the tools should be set up so that this is the "natural" result > > > of their proper use. > > > > > > Right now, it is possible to properly use the tools in accordance > > > with policy and end up with an unbuildable tree. > > > > Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has > > happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that > > we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've > > started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to > > change as far as that part of commit process goes. > > Look, I hate coming back to the recent yacc stuff because it makes > it look like I'm pointing fingers, but it's just the most recent > example in a long line of examples that belie your statement. Poul didn't finish what he started. That was bad, but the locking protocol of CVS wouldn't have done anything to solve that problem. The only way to solve that problem is to either build in enough smarts into the tool so that you *can't* commit code that causes the tree to break (basically impossible given the current resources), or have the developers police themselves and use 'people' to enforce the rules. The issue you brought up was the somehow CVS locking would solve part of the problem, so it's irrelevant to the problem at hand re: -stable vs. -current. No more shall be said by me since all that needs to be said has been. (and then some). Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:00:38 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01628 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01607; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA16854; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:00:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 09:29:32 MDT." <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:00:23 -0700 Message-ID: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a > *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, > but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to > do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to > both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, I think you're forgetting the problem with cvs where: 1. You make a change in -release. 2. You merge it into -stable. 3. You make another change in -release. 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:07:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02183 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA02154; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA01251; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:06:47 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:06:47 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a > > *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, > > but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to > > do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to > > both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, > > I think you're forgetting the problem with cvs where: > > 1. You make a change in -release. > 2. You merge it into -stable. > 3. You make another change in -release. > 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* > of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't work when you've already merged. What *I* do is this, which is a bit more work but does do the job 95% of the time. % cvs log file-to-merge. (Figure out which revision(s) needs to go into the branch). % cvs diff -c -r1.A -r1.B file-to-merge > cdif % cvs update -r BRANCH_TAG % patch file-to-merge < cdif .... % emacs -nw file-to-merge file-to-merge.rej .... % cvs diff -bu file-to-merge [ Review the merged patch, make sure it's ok, build/test/etc. on my box ] % cvs commit file-to-merge This is alot of work, but it *does* the job. Whole-scale merging of trees and directories doesn't work when the trees have already been merged. CVS doesn't operate on the principal of 'everlasting' branches that keep getting 'merges' happen to them. As I understand the CVS model, if we merged everything into -stable, then we should build a new branch at that point in -current since the files are merged. Merges are 'merges', not 'sort of merges'. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:09:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02423 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.iafrica.com (chain.iafrica.com [196.7.74.174]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02417 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (khetan@localhost) by chain.iafrica.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA10090 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:08:00 +0200 (SAT) X-Authentication-Warning: chain.iafrica.com: khetan owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:07:58 +0200 (SAT) From: Khetan Gajjar To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: make query Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi. Does make all depend in /usr/src also make includes ? I looked in the Makefile but couldn't figure it out. Regards, Khetan Gajjar. --- Visit me at http://www.iafrica.com/~khetan/ UUNet-Internet Africa Operations help@iafrica.com or 0800-030-002 From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:28:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03500 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03481; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA16974; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:27:55 -0700 (PDT) To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" cc: grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 10:42:00 CDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:27:55 -0700 Message-ID: <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can > I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put > someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. > .. > Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is > accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more resources to us. It's a pretty simple equation which would be solved in the commercial world by us charging you more money. Since we're not in the commercial world, then it stands to reason that if you or anyone else wants feature or service "X", which we claim is beyond our resources, then it's your task to ensure that we have the resources we need. Knowing your position of relative wealth (far more than any of ours), why not hire a part-timer and "give" him to us? He can work with the other full or part time programmers the other ISPs (or other commercial interests) hire to make -stable everything you want it to be. Everybody gets what they want then - we stop having our very limited resources bifurcated, you get your -stable branch. Anyway, let's Just Do It or stop pounding shoes on the table talking about how "-stable MUST NOT DIE!" and it's up to the current developers to pull a rabbit out of their hats and somehow make it all work. I'd be happy to talk to Karl (or anyone else) about co-managing whatever human resources they can donate to the project. I should also note here that any other proposals which involve me or anyone closely involved in -current development doing the work will be politely deleted - I think I've already made my position more than clear and I will not be budged on it. It's just too much work, members of the core team have complained to me in private that -stable was sucking the life force out of the project (or refused to participate in -stable at all) and they wished we'd stop, this is not a problem that suddenly appeared - it's been 15 months in the making and now we need some additional man power if we're going to deal with it in any more permanant fashion. As I said, I'd be more than happy to talk with the "vested interest" folks in seeing how they personally might not take more responsibility for the -stable service they've come to appreciate. Everyone always talks about how they'd like to give something back, well, here's a golden opportunity! Give me about 2 - 3 part-time employees and I'll give you back a -stable that will make all of us very happy. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:30:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA03695 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03690 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17019; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:30:02 -0700 (PDT) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: "Schwenk, Peter" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 10:18:58 PDT." <199606071719.KAA12070@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:30:02 -0700 Message-ID: <17017.834190202@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > It means if you have changes in your /etc directory from the > distribution (you have to have *some* changes), that you need to > carefully merge them with updated /usr/src/etc/ files by hand. It's > not a process that can be automated. Though I've always felt that the files which were supposed to be non-mutable files (like /etc/netstart) should probably get installed by a make world. It would help narrow the number of custom files which need to be revisited each time. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:42:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04545 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04524; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17088; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:40:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:22:35 PDT." <199606071822.LAA03612@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:40:55 -0700 Message-ID: <17086.834190855@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > The problem with CVS is access protocol. I've suggested (many times) > that the way to resolve this is to establish reader/writer locks and > a shell script interface for use by committers or other programs, and Oh, did I also forget to mention that CVS's locking code is totally bogus and slow? :-) It takes *two hours* to check out a copy of /usr/src, not to mention all the time wasted in locking down the tree during commits (CVS crawls through the area you're committing and slaps down lock files everywhere, very very slowly). Then there's the wonderful feeling when you've done a whole set of cleanups to /usr/src and have to do a "commit from the top" - you wait 45 minutes for it to crawl its way through, only to be informed at the end that somebody changed a file in some _completely unrelated_ section of the tree and now, rather than simply merging it in for you (e.g. this is NOT a conflict situation!) CVS aborts and says "I can't go on!". You need to update in the change then start your commit all over again. Sorry, CVS is not my favorite utility. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:45:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04934 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04929 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17139; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:45:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Morgan Davis cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ftp.c -- parse error breaks make world In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:50:07 PDT." <199606071850.LAA00478@io.cts.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:45:22 -0700 Message-ID: <17137.834191122@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Fixed it. > make world: > > /usr/src/usr.bin/ftp/ftp.c:1201: parse error before `}' > *** Error code 1 > > Stop. > From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:49:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05202 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA05182; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA04537; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:54 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606072342.QAA04537@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:54 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <17086.834190855@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 96 04:40:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The problem with CVS is access protocol. I've suggested (many times) > > that the way to resolve this is to establish reader/writer locks and > > a shell script interface for use by committers or other programs, and > > Oh, did I also forget to mention that CVS's locking code is totally > bogus and slow? :-) > > It takes *two hours* to check out a copy of /usr/src, not to mention > all the time wasted in locking down the tree during commits (CVS > crawls through the area you're committing and slaps down lock files > everywhere, very very slowly). Gee, if only you had top level reader/writer locks so you could turn off the per file locking if a global lock was present and spend about 16,000 less lock/unlock calls. 8-). > Then there's the wonderful feeling when you've done a whole set of cleanups > to /usr/src and have to do a "commit from the top" - you wait 45 minutes > for it to crawl its way through, only to be informed at the end that > somebody changed a file in some _completely unrelated_ section of the > tree and now, rather than simply merging it in for you (e.g. this is NOT > a conflict situation!) CVS aborts and says "I can't go on!". You need > to update in the change then start your commit all over again. Gee, if only you had top level reader/writeer locks that were multiple reader/single writer to serialize groups of changes over a set of 'n' files. 8-). > Sorry, CVS is not my favorite utility. The problem isn't CVS, it's what you put on top of it. You might as well blame RCS for you CVS problems as CVS for your protocol/policy enforcement problems. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 16:56:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05799 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05775; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA17189; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:56:30 -0700 (PDT) To: "Marc G. Fournier" cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 15:05:32 EDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:56:29 -0700 Message-ID: <17187.834191789@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Again, isn't this what Jordan is doing with his -SNAPs...stating > that at this point in time, it is felt that -current has proven to be > stable enough to make an install kit out of? Uh, no. :-) I produce SNAPs when there's something we want to _test_, not because they signifify stability milestones (in fact, if something really contraversial and in need of testing has just gone in, I'm prone to make a SNAP of it). Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 17:35:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09172 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA09150; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080035.RAA09150@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:06:47 MDT." <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:35:43 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* >> of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! > >I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't >work when you've already merged. What *I* do is this, which is a bit >more work but does do the job 95% of the time. Can't use use some "-r"'s with -j to make this work better? Granted you still have to look at the log file. >Nate -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 17:49:26 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10467 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10441; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01116; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:48:42 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , grog@lemis.de (Greg Lehey), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:27:55 PDT." <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:48:41 -0700 Message-ID: <1114.834194921@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > >Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more >resources to us. I would like to back this argument a little bit too. Quite frankly, I'm proud as hell when you people brag about what you're doing with FreeBSD. I'm proud as hell when I wear my FreeBSD T-shirt. I have bought more hardware of more weird sorts than anybody would think they would ever need, and certainly more than I'd ever buy if I didn't care about the quality of installation tools and methods for FreeBSD and other such stuff. I could have started an ISP instead, I could have made money instead. I know I have spent time to the tune of $100K on FreeBSD instead of doing paid work. So far I have no problem with that either because, most of it was fun, and most of the rest of it were just plainly needed to get FreeBSD over a hurdle. What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for you in return ?" If somebody were to be paid for doing FreeBSD work part-time, with the understanding that "it may not be fun, that's why we pay you!" we could get a lot of menial tasks done that simply don't get done because they're not any fun to do in your sparetime. Things like regression testing, documentation, upgrade procedures... Another alternative is to get sufficient money that one or more of the really good FreeBSD people could actually sustain life doing nothing but FreeBSD. Both of these things would help a lot, and it goes without saying that any donation on that kind of scale would result in a higher level of awareness for the donors problems and wishes. But even if you cannot afford that kind of donations, you can still donate to us. The information for donating money is on our web-pages. How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 18:01:23 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA11958 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA11887; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA17512; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:59:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:59:14 PDT." <199606072159.OAA04189@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:59:42 -0700 Message-ID: <17510.834195582@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Jordan, not looking where he's going, stupidly blunders into this conversation. He won't appreciate the magnitude of his mistake until later.. ] OK, wait a sec.. Let me play reductionist for a moment and see if some less complex scheme that doesn't start with "first, we construct some sub-molecular assemblers" can be devised (Terry goes "Awwwww! That'd be no fun then!"). The question here seems to be "how can we give the users a tree which always builds", right? Well, that's certainly not a new question. Even crazed expatriate brits like Julian Stacey have been calling for that sort of scheme for years! :-) I think the _last_ time we went around this merry-go-round, during which time many of the exact same ideas were floated and rejected as highly impractical, we decided that the best way of doing it would be through some selectively cvs-updated trees which were both available for further supping and used to generate CTM deltas. When to update the tree would be gated by the collection of "tokens" from one or more (preferably more) "token generators". Each time a cooperating machined finished a make world, it would send off a token of some sort (could be an email message) to the server saying, in essence "make world [completed successfully/failed] from tree [blah] on date [blah]" My guess is that you'd run these guys once a night, the token receiver waiting 24 hours for all the reports to filter in and then counting them up, finally generating a go/no go decision on cvs updating the tree. Get somebody to implement the framework, call for volunteer systems to be "token generators", install the server on freefall and have it use the scheme to keep the -current and -stable trees up to date. Anyone wanting more granular updates can always sup/ctm the CVS tree, right? Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 18:08:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA12754 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA12690; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA17607; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:07:47 -0700 (PDT) To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:06:47 MDT." <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 18:07:47 -0700 Message-ID: <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't Yes, but I'd like to be able to is kinda the point. The kinds of gyrations you describe as being necessary only underscore my point.. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 18:14:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13236 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13218; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA01864; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:14:08 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:14:08 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080114.TAA01864@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I don't use 'cvs update -j' to merge it into -stable. 'merge' doesn't > > Yes, but I'd like to be able to is kinda the point. The kinds of gyrations > you describe as being necessary only underscore my point.. :-) P3 isn't going to make this any easier, so you're going to have to go through gyrations. The complexity of merging two *very* different trees isn't going to change, and no automatic scheme is going to make it any easier. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:04:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18471 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.statsci.com (main.statsci.com [198.145.127.110]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18452; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from statsci.com by main.statsci.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uSDNn-0005zxC; Fri, 7 Jun 96 19:04 PDT Message-Id: To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view References: <199606072306.RAA01251@rocky.sri.MT.net> <17605.834196067@time.cdrom.com> <199606080114.TAA01864@rocky.sri.MT.net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:14:08 -0600." <199606080114.TAA01864@rocky.sri.MT.net> Reply-to: scott@statsci.com Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:04:06 -0700 From: Scott Blachowicz Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Nate Williams wrote: > The complexity of merging two *very* different trees isn't going to > change, and no automatic scheme is going to make it any easier. So, it sounds like goal should be to reduce the differences between the "current" tree and the "stable" tree. One question I did have - when a real release happened, why wouldn't you make -release and -stable the same tree at that instant? Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but at some instant, shouldn't -current, -stable and -release be the same thing? Or maybe the -stable tree is the "main trunk" where -release is snapshot'd off of at release time and -current is a major development branch that gets merged into the -stable tree as it is stablized? Ehhh...now that I think on it...that sounds too simplistic. Or keep a -current tree (or collection of them acting as "token generators" as in Jordan's message) that lags the real -current tree by a week or two and snapshot that into a -stable if enough "it was good" "tokens" are received over the one week period? Why does my mind wander back to college and the Heisenberg principle? :-)) Scott Blachowicz Ph: 206/283-8802x240 Mathsoft (Data Analysis Products Div) 1700 Westlake Ave N #500 scott@statsci.com Seattle, WA USA 98109 Scott.Blachowicz@seaslug.org From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:09:20 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18988 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18965; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA14858; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:08:49 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:08:49 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > Yes, but only if the developer isn't paying attention. This has > happened less times than I can count on two hands. Considering that > we're probably approaching hundreds of thousands of commits since we've > started, I'd say we're doing pretty well and that nothing needs to > change as far as that part of commit process goes. > I started supping current 2 weeks ago and during this time I saw configuration mistakes go into the tree. I can understand programming bugs, but a mistakes in configuration management that prevent successful builds are a little annoying. How many people does this affect these days? Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? -mh From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:22:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20478 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20450; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01467; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:21:58 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org, stable@freebsd.org Subject: Parallel SUP's: STOP IT! Reply-to: phk@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:21:58 -0700 Message-ID: <1465.834200518@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I will kindly reiterate that we do NOT want parallel runs of SUP against freebsd.org and that we will without notice blacklist hosts engaged in such behaviour. If your connectivity is that bad, switch to CTM. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:23:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20612 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20551; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA02108; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:21:42 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:21:42 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080221.UAA02108@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Michael Hancock Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: References: <199606072207.QAA00896@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? Because these tools are unattainable. Saying 'it would be nice if we could guarantee that the tree was always buildable' is like saying 'it would be nice if everyone liked everyone'. It's a wonderful goal, but it's unattainable given the current resources. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:26:46 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21150 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA21106; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA15013; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:25:24 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:25:24 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Terry Lambert cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606072342.QAA04537@phaeton.artisoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Terry Lambert wrote: > > It takes *two hours* to check out a copy of /usr/src, not to mention > > all the time wasted in locking down the tree during commits (CVS > > crawls through the area you're committing and slaps down lock files > > everywhere, very very slowly). > > Gee, if only you had top level reader/writer locks so you could > turn off the per file locking if a global lock was present and > spend about 16,000 less lock/unlock calls. 8-). > > > Then there's the wonderful feeling when you've done a whole set of cleanups > > to /usr/src and have to do a "commit from the top" - you wait 45 minutes > > for it to crawl its way through, only to be informed at the end that > > somebody changed a file in some _completely unrelated_ section of the > > tree and now, rather than simply merging it in for you (e.g. this is NOT > > a conflict situation!) CVS aborts and says "I can't go on!". You need > > to update in the change then start your commit all over again. > > Gee, if only you had top level reader/writeer locks that were multiple > reader/single writer to serialize groups of changes over a set of 'n' > files. 8-). Maybe you should provide an example of how multiple reader/single writer locks can parrallelize a section of kernel code while keeping things consistent. The developers can then maybe extrapolate the idea to improving the CVS commit process in a very *cheap* yet effective way. Geeks hate words like (enforce|policy) when it comes to areas that affect their working style. But a cool technical idea..... -mh From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:31:28 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA21684 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA21617; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id LAA15033; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:30:20 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:30:20 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080221.UAA02108@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having ^^^^^^ I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap effective way to do this. -mh > > a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? > > Because these tools are unattainable. Saying 'it would be nice if we > could guarantee that the tree was always buildable' is like saying 'it > would be nice if everyone liked everyone'. It's a wonderful goal, but > it's unattainable given the current resources. > > > Nate > -- michaelh@cet.co.jp http://www.cet.co.jp CET Inc., Daiichi Kasuya BLDG 8F 2-5-12, Higashi Shinbashi, Minato-ku, Tokyo 105 Japan Tel: +81-3-3437-1761 Fax: +81-3-3437-1766 From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:34:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA22132 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22091; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA23366; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:33:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-Reply-To: <1114.834194921@critter.tfs.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine > with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any > other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... > > So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you > need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. > > Poul-Henning Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the slack or it dies. It's that simple. So lets stop arguing about it and we will either get enough support and manpower to keep -stable going or just let it die. Either way I think tempers are starting to flare now between a few people so lets find a new topic since we all know what needs to be done with stable. :) -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:40:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23011 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22990; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id TAA12036; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080240.TAA12036@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: John Polstra , nate@sri.MT.net, stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org, scanner@webspan.net Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:32:32 PDT." <17488.834093152@time.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:40:32 -0700 Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> Well, I liked -stable too! Are you sure you're not over-reacting to >> the recent nightmare? That pesky post-traumatic stress syndrome thing? >> Hey, in time, the night sweats and flashbacks will pass. :-) > >:-) > >No, it's been a matter of concern for some time, actually. David and >I have been talking about -stable in hushed tones of "What the f*** >are we going to do about this wart long-term? We can't keep doing >this!" for at least a year. This may have been the last straw, but it >was hardly the only (or even most significant) one. It's an ongoing >maintainance headache and we really don't have the resources to do >this, it's just that simple. > >Either we make the process simpler (ditch CVS) or we get a lot more >people to work on FreeBSD and do it by brute force (yuck), but we >can't keep doing it with what we've got now. I really don't think that using a different source control system is going to make any difference. The problem we're faced with is with the source trees diverging too quickly. No matter what source control system we use, it's still not going to be able to resolve include-file dependencies, variable name/type changes, and miscellaneous architectural changes that make merging impossible. This is a problem with trying to keep a moldy source tree "in sync" with things happening in -current. It's possible to manage for about the first 3 months, but when the time approaches 1 year (like it is now), it becomes a bloody nightmare. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:40:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23012 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA22980; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA29956; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:40:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Chris Watson cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:33:25 EDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:40:10 -0700 Message-ID: <29951.834201610@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send > money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom > line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the Make checks payable to FreeBSD, Inc. and send them to me care of Walnut Creek CDROM, e.g.: FreeBSD, Inc. c/o Jordan Hubbard 4041 Pike Lane, suite #D Concord CA, 94520 I deposit all such checks in a company bank account where we've been waiting for enough to accrue (e.g. more than the $1100 or so we've collected thus far) that we can actually do something with it. Everybody who donates something also gets an entry in the "donors gallery" unless they specifically request otherwise (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/donors.html). Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:44:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA23419 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MediaCity.com (root@easy1.mediacity.com [205.216.172.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA23387; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by MediaCity.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA19029; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:43:12 -0700 From: Brian Litzinger Message-Id: <199606080243.TAA19029@MediaCity.com> Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) To: phk@FreeBSD.org (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, karl@mcs.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <1114.834194921@critter.tfs.com> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Jun 7, 96 05:48:41 pm" Reply-To: brian@MediaCity.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > > >Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more > >resources to us. Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of > quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of > success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to > -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for > you in return ?" FreeBSD has long been promoted as free. It is hard for me to imagine how the word "owe" can be associated with the word "free". But then, here in the US, I've run into alot of "free" things in which you really "owe". So perhaps I am out-of-step with the modern meaning of the word free. For the benefit of the aged, like myself, perhaps you could change the name. 8-) -- Brian Litzinger Powered by FreeBSD http[s]://www.mpress.com From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:52:33 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24359 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA24348 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DATAPLEX.NET (SHARK.DATAPLEX.NET [199.183.109.241]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id TAA01796 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:52:27 -0700 Received: from 199.183.109.242 by DATAPLEX.NET with SMTP (MailShare 1.0fc5); Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:47:47 -0600 Message-ID: Date: 7 Jun 1996 21:45:55 -0500 From: "Richard Wackerbarth" Subject: The ctm distribution of -stable To: "Richard J Kuhns" , "stable@freebsd.org" X-Mailer: Mail*Link PT/Internet 1.6.0 Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard J Kukns writes: > For what it's worth, the 115 update didn't touch libf2c. I grabbed the > libf2c Makefile from the -stable src on freebsd.org, and it was correct. I > guess I don't understand how ctm updates are created; starting fresh from > the CD and applying updates thru 115 (the most recent), I don't end up with > what's sitting in -stable/src. The ctm updates are made as follows: 1) I maintain a tree that is supposed to be exactly the tree built by applying the series of ctm updates. 2) I maintain a copy of the master cvs tree by sup from a secondary server. 3) Each morning I extract the 2.1 tree from this cvs archive. 4) The ctm make program effectively does a diff of the two trees and generates the file which brings tree (1) into conformity with tree(2). 5) After applying the update to my tree (1), I send the update to the central mail distribution point for FreeBSD.org. From there it is sent to all subscribers, including the ftp archive. There are a few possible sources of a difference. 1) The time delay may cause my tree to be slightly behind. However, I assume that is not the case here. 2) Something got corrupted in one of the file systems. 3) The cvs tree doesn't check out the correct information. I infer that the problem is with the Makefile for libf2c. I'll try to track down the error. -- Richard Wackerbarth rkw@dataplex.net -- ...computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and weigh only 1/2 tons. -- Popular Mechanics, March 1949 From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:55:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA24789 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA24748; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01528; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:55:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Chris Watson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:33:25 EDT." Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:55:12 -0700 Message-ID: <1526.834202512@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message , Chris Watson writes: >> How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine >> with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any >> other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... >> >> So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you >> need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. >> >> Poul-Henning > >Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send >money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom >line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the >slack or it dies. It's that simple. So lets stop arguing about it and we >will either get enough support and manpower to keep -stable going or just >let it die. Either way I think tempers are starting to flare now between a >few people so lets find a new topic since we all know what needs to be >done with stable. :) It's all there in the handbook: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook218.html 18.2.6.1. Donating funds While the FreeBSD Project is not a 501(C3) (non-profit) corporation and hence cannot offer special tax incentives for any donations made, any such donations will be gratefully accepted on behalf of the project by FreeBSD, Inc. FreeBSD, Inc. was founded in early 1995 by Jordan K. Hubbard and David Greenman with the goal of furthering the aims of the FreeBSD Project and giving it a minimal corporate presence. Any and all funds donated (as well as any profits that may eventually be realized by FreeBSD, Inc.) will be used exclusively to further the project's goals. Please make any checks payable to FreeBSD, Inc., sent in care of the following address: FreeBSD, Inc. 246 Park St. Clyde CA, 94520 Wire transfers may also be sent directly to: Bank Of America Concord Main Office P.O. Box 37176 San Francisco CA, 94137-5176 Routing #: 121-000-358 Account #: 01411-07441 (FreeBSD, Inc.) If you do not wish to be listed in our donors section, please specify this when making your donation. Thanks! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 19:58:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25194 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25170; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA16218; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:58:32 -0700 (PDT) To: brian@MediaCity.com cc: phk@FreeBSD.org (Poul-Henning Kamp), karl@mcs.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:43:12 PDT." <199606080243.TAA19029@MediaCity.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:58:31 -0700 Message-ID: <16211.834202711@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to > > -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for > > you in return ?" > > FreeBSD has long been promoted as free. It is hard for me to imagine > how the word "owe" can be associated with the word "free". But then, > here in the US, I've run into alot of "free" things in which you > really "owe". So perhaps I am out-of-step with the modern meaning > of the word free. I don't think that's what phk intended to say, and if you read that paragraph of his again I think you'll see that he's paraphrasing some ficticious person saything that _they_ feel they owe something. The different is rather stark. > For the benefit of the aged, like myself, perhaps you could > change the name. 8-) Or, for the benefit of those who are poor of eyesight, like yourself, we should simply send out these mailings in larger type. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 20:01:56 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA25618 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from InfoWest.COM (infowest.com [204.17.177.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA25570; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agifford (zaketh.uv.com [204.17.177.95]) by InfoWest.COM (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA13778; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:08:45 -0601 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960608030130.006e79c4@infowest.com> X-Sender: agifford@infowest.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:01:30 -0600 To: hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org From: "Aaron D. Gifford" Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 05:48 PM 6/7/96 -0700, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >> >>Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more >>resources to us. > >I would like to back this argument a little bit too. Quite frankly, >I'm proud as hell when you people brag about what you're doing with >FreeBSD. I'm proud as hell when I wear my FreeBSD T-shirt. > >I have bought more hardware of more weird sorts than anybody would >think they would ever need, and certainly more than I'd ever buy if >I didn't care about the quality of installation tools and methods >for FreeBSD and other such stuff. > >I could have started an ISP instead, I could have made money instead. >I know I have spent time to the tune of $100K on FreeBSD instead of >doing paid work. So far I have no problem with that either because, >most of it was fun, and most of the rest of it were just plainly >needed to get FreeBSD over a hurdle. > >What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of >quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of >success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to >-core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for >you in return ?" > >If somebody were to be paid for doing FreeBSD work part-time, with the >understanding that "it may not be fun, that's why we pay you!" we could >get a lot of menial tasks done that simply don't get done because they're >not any fun to do in your sparetime. Things like regression testing, >documentation, upgrade procedures... > >Another alternative is to get sufficient money that one or more of the >really good FreeBSD people could actually sustain life doing nothing but >FreeBSD. > >Both of these things would help a lot, and it goes without saying that >any donation on that kind of scale would result in a higher level of >awareness for the donors problems and wishes. > >But even if you cannot afford that kind of donations, you can still >donate to us. The information for donating money is on our web-pages. > >How about donating $25 every time you install or upgrade a machine >with FreeBSD ? That would still be less than half the price of any >other thing you could install, say, MS-DOS 6.22 or Windows 95... > >So, guys, if FreeBSD is so useful to you and your business, maybe you >need to think about how you can be useful to the FreeBSD project. > >Poul-Henning > >-- >Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. >http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. >whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. >Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. > > I work for an small ISP here in Southern Utah that uses FreeBSD, and I like the idea of contributing back to FreeBSD, particularly the small donation every time one upgrades or installs FreeBSD. I do have few questions and ideas though. Questions first: If someone DID want to contribute money, how would this be done? To what organization would the money be sent? FreeBSD, Inc? Is FreeBSD Inc, a non-profit organization? Ideas: Why not add a web page or two on the www.freebsd.org site describing how to contribute money, hardware, labor, etc? The page might suggest a tiered donation scheme (perhaps something like $25, $50, $100, $200, $500, $1000, etc. donations per install or upgrade) where donors are listed on appropriate web pages according to their donation level. A $25 donor might just get a quick 1-line listing while the $1000 GOLD LEVEL donor might have the opportunity to place an icon, web link, and brief paragraph describing how they use FreeBSD. I understand that the donation scheme should probably be kept SIMPLE so that the amount of time to administer donations doesn't eat into the donation value. The advantage of a suggested donation scheme would be in prompting users (perhaps with guilt? ) to participate, as well as making administration of donations somewhat simpler. I think that recognizing donors on a web page might encourage donations as well. A plus to having a tiered donation scheme is that everyone can donate according to their ability. Gee, this is beginning to sound almost like my local PBS station's fund drive! Oh well. I was just brainstorming. Aaron out. --=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=-- Aaron D. Gifford InfoWest, 1845 W. Sunset Blvd, St. George, UT 84770 InfoWest Networking Phone: (801) 674-0165 FAX: (801) 673-9734 Visit InfoWest at: "http://www.infowest.com/" ICBM: 37.07847 N, 113.57858 W "Southern Utah's Finest Network Connection" --=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=--=+=-- From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 20:05:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26168 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26160 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA22244; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:05:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Dave Hayes cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:19:05 PDT." <199606070919.CAA21218@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:05:06 -0700 Message-ID: <22242.834203106@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Isn't that what the SNAPs are really for? Correct me if I'm wrong (and > who out there won't?) but aren't these supposed to be "more stable > snapshots" of -current? Exactly the opposite (please see the handbook entry on snapshots). They're made when we want to test something. > On a related note, software I deliver to customers is (usually) > accompanied by Q&A procedures. Is there *any* way to Q&A an entire > UNIX system in an automated fashion? One solution to the "-stable" Not really, no. Certainly not with our resources, anyway! Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 20:06:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26277 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26249; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01569; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:06:02 -0700 (PDT) To: brian@MediaCity.com cc: hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:43:12 PDT." <199606080243.TAA19029@MediaCity.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:06:00 -0700 Message-ID: <1567.834203160@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dear Brian, If you have never sent one single email to us saying anything along the lines of "geeze, it would help me much if you could ..." then you can go happily on with your life and not pay anything to anybody. If you have something you want done to FreeBSD, they you may have to consider that you're asking one of us to do it in our spare time, to save your butt, very likely in some professional context. I'm not asking for the money for a new swimming pool for anybody. I'm asking for the money, so that we can get somebody to help us do the things that somebody like you, and, quite possibly you too wants to see in FreeBSD, but which falls so far from our idea of fun that it will not otherwise happen. If you think FreeBSD is not FREE because we ask for volountary donations to make it even better, then maybe we should donate to an education to you in straight thinking, because you're clearly not good at it at this time. With not too much respect, Poul-Henning Kamp >Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >> What I'm more than a little bit disappointed with, is the number of >> quite obvious commercial entities with their relative amounts of >> success and dependencies on FreeBSD that have sent an email to >> -core saying, "Hi, we owe you people something, what can we do for >> you in return ?" > >FreeBSD has long been promoted as free. It is hard for me to imagine >how the word "owe" can be associated with the word "free". But then, >here in the US, I've run into alot of "free" things in which you >really "owe". So perhaps I am out-of-step with the modern meaning >of the word free. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 20:29:47 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA28340 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com ([140.145.16.108]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA28316; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from critter.tfs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01689; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:29:11 -0700 (PDT) To: "Aaron D. Gifford" cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:01:30 MDT." <2.2.32.19960608030130.006e79c4@infowest.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:29:11 -0700 Message-ID: <1687.834204551@critter.tfs.com> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk First: we have a very wide distribution on this subject, please don't quote the entire message, and watch that CC line please ! >Questions first: If someone DID want to contribute money, how would this be >done? To what organization would the money be sent? FreeBSD, Inc? Is >FreeBSD Inc, a non-profit organization? So far we havn't pushed the fund-raising very hard, as can be seen from the fact that I had to actually grep the handbook to find the right place, and that Jordan just updated the address to match current reality. We havn't got enough money to make it worth the effort to make it a tax exempt org of any kind, and likewise there are no or few procedures in place to control our usage of the money. Basically we say, "trust us". (The fact that most of you run code we write on your computers indicates to me that you already trust us quite a lot, thanks! :-) Until the cash-flow warrants such procedures we'd rather spend our time hacking code if you understand me, so I hope this rather loose arrangement is OK with our donors. I don't think there is anything preventing us from putting the actual accounts up on the web, but I don't even think we have used any money yet, all we have is about USD1000 or so I think, not really enough for the stuff we want to do. Likewise if a major donation is ear-marked I'm sure we'll be able to account for it's proper use to the donor. FreeBSD Inc is a corporation registered by a number of members of the FreeBSD core-team, and we use that as the official framework for the money stuff at this time. If at some time there is a business case for a non-profit org, we will probably make one, but at this time the paperwork would be too prohibitive. If there are donors out there in the world who think that sending money to U.S.A is a terrible thing or just too much hazzle, contact a core-member in your end of the world, we can probably arrange something. Thanks for the ideas! -- Poul-Henning Kamp | phk@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD Core-team. http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk Private mailbox. whois: [PHK] | phk@ref.tfs.com TRW Financial Systems, Inc. Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 21:06:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02040 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:06:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02014; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA12386; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 09:29:32 MDT." <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:06:31 -0700 Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >This kind of work is necessary for -stable to exist, and apparently at >least Jordan and David are completely unwillingly to do this. Do any of >the developers (and Peter the CVS-meister) have anything to say? I've obviously been willing since I've been doing this for over a year now. The problem is that I have no time to work on new development myself. New development is the "fun" part of FreeBSD. I haven't had any FreeBSD "fun" for more than a year now, and I'm quickly approaching the burnout point (actually, I've already burnt out; I'm currently forcing myself to continue in this role only because I feel obligated to get the release out). This is a difficult problem for me. I've intentionally placed myself in- between the release tree (which is currently -stable) and -current in an attempt to improve the quality of FreeBSD releases. If I decide not to do this any longer, then I'm affraid that the quality of the released code will go into the toilet. We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 21:08:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA02250 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02123; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02519; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:07:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:07:40 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Michael Hancock Cc: Nate Williams , Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: References: <199606080221.UAA02108@rocky.sri.MT.net> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > ^^^^^^ > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > effective way to do this. They wouldn't enforce or even help the policy. Multiple reader/single writer locks don't solve any significant problem we've faced. Why do something that limits the ability of developers to commit changes when the problem the fix happens .001% of the time? It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 21:17:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA03367 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03330; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA05233; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:11:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080411.VAA05233@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:11:16 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jun 8, 96 11:30:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > ^^^^^^ > > > a buildable tree. Would this make the commit process too cumbersome? > > > > Because these tools are unattainable. Saying 'it would be nice if we > > could guarantee that the tree was always buildable' is like saying 'it > > would be nice if everyone liked everyone'. It's a wonderful goal, but > > it's unattainable given the current resources. > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > effective way to do this. Exactly. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 21:22:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA03920 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03899; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id VAA02119 ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:21:54 -0700 Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02553; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:19:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:19:19 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080419.WAA02553@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: davidg@Root.COM Cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> References: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one > that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today be even remotely acceptable? Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 21:23:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA04068 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from who.cdrom.com (who.cdrom.com [204.216.27.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA04039; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.barrnet.net (mail.barrnet.net [131.119.246.7]) by who.cdrom.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id VAA02143 ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:22:55 -0700 Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by mail.barrnet.net (8.7.5/MAIL-RELAY-LEN) with SMTP id VAA09575; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA02540; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:17:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:17:40 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080417.WAA02540@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: davidg@Root.COM Cc: stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-Reply-To: <199606080240.TAA12036@Root.COM> References: <17488.834093152@time.cdrom.com> <199606080240.TAA12036@Root.COM> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Greenman writes: > I really don't think that using a different source control system > is going to make any difference. The problem we're faced with is with > the source trees diverging too quickly. No matter what source control > system we use, it's still not going to be able to resolve include-file > dependencies, variable name/type changes, and miscellaneous > architectural changes that make merging impossible. I agree *totally*. Although I agree that CVS has it's problem, I don't believe that merging two very different trees is something it or any other SCM tool can deal with well. > This is a problem with trying to keep a moldy source tree "in sync" > with things happening in -current. It's possible to manage for about > the first 3 months, but when the time approaches 1 year (like it is > now), it becomes a bloody nightmare. Agreed. And, for the record I didn't mean to imply that you weren't willing to do this initially, but that you aren't willing to do this anymore (at least that what Jordan stated, and I took as truth.) In any case I'll quit speaking for you, and leave it that I'm willing to do some of the integration work simply because -stable is something that *I* feel is a good thing, therefore I'm willing to bring in those patches which I feel are both stable and contribute to making the stable branch better. However, having said that I'll also say that if I don't *completely* understand a fix or have no personal need for this patch I probably won't take the time to do any merging of patches unless someone makes it real easy for me. I'm not sure what -stable will become after this discussion, but I'd like to see it's 'idea' continued. Heck, I'm almost willing to say freeze -current *TODAY* for a couple weeks as it appears the VM stuff is looking good and cut a new 'stable' branch today. 'RELENG_2_1_0' is almost at it's end anyway, and this way we could have another 'stable' branch that will be ready for general consumption as soon as 2.1.5 goes out the door. (To this end I upgraded one of my -stable boxes to a -current kernel today, and will be upgrading the user-land stuff soon.) Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 21:46:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA06456 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA06430; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA05318; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:40:08 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080440.VAA05318@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:40:08 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, jkh@time.cdrom.com, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: from "Michael Hancock" at Jun 8, 96 11:25:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Gee, if only you had top level reader/writeer locks that were multiple > > reader/single writer to serialize groups of changes over a set of 'n' > > files. 8-). > > Maybe you should provide an example of how multiple reader/single writer > locks can parrallelize a section of kernel code while keeping things > consistent. The developers can then maybe extrapolate the idea to > improving the CVS commit process in a very *cheap* yet effective way. > > Geeks hate words like (enforce|policy) when it comes to areas that affect > their working style. But a cool technical idea..... I think I did provide an example of this -- I don't rememebr if it was on the SMP list or on -hackers, now, though. It had to do with setting up hierarchical lock management for per processor memory pools that are filled from a system pool, or drained to the system pool when they hit a high "pages free" watermark. For a non-SMP ecample, you could visualize reeentering the FS on multiple searches of the same directory. If I set a reader lock on a block, it would prevent block compaction, but only in that block, so that creates would not change the block offset while the block is being read. For a block in which a create/delete were taking place, a writer lock would be asserted, which would block reading until the write had completed. This would allow any number of readers to enter a block, as long as there was no writer, but only one writer to enter the block (when there were no readers -- the "IW" (Intention to Write lock) assertion is made on the block, and subsequent readers are prevented from entering, --but may assert an "IR" -- (Intention to Read lock) to prevent multiple writers from starving the readers. The "IW" is converted to a "W" when all of the readers have "drained" out of the locked segment. After the write completes, the "W" is deasserted, and the "R" blocks can be serviced. When no more "IR"'s remain to be converted to "R" (since the conversion is global and simultaneous for all IR's, since they are not exclusive), then any outstanding IW assertions are allowed to complete, and again, any "W" is blocked pending reader drain. For a CVS implementation, it would be relatively easy to exclusively lock the "want lock" list" and process it linearly in the "unlock" process, with a one second (or 5 second) file modification "poll" by all waiters. Perhaps, ideally, you would want something like: [ ... ] # # cvs_lock_read_wait - shell function to wait for read lock # cvs_lock_read_wait() { while true do cvs lock read if test "$?" = "0" then echo "reader lock acquired" exit 0 fi echo "waiting..." sleep 5 done } # # cvs_help - extended help after real help, or args + -H # cvs_help() { case "$1x" in x) $REALCVS -H ; ST=$? echo " lock Lock command"; exit $ST;; lock) echo "Usage: cvs lock [read | write ]"; exit 1;; unlock) echo "Usage: cvs unlock"; exit 1;; *) $REALCVS -H $*; ST=$?; exit $ST;; else $REALCVS $* fi } # # cvs_default - all other (non-lock, non-help) commands # cvs_default() { $(REALCVS) $* } [ ... ] This all being part of the "cvs" shell script that replaces the real cvs program, which has been renamed. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 22:05:42 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA07610 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07587; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA05346; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:58:35 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080458.VAA05346@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 21:58:35 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at Jun 7, 96 09:06:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >This kind of work is necessary for -stable to exist, and apparently at > >least Jordan and David are completely unwillingly to do this. Do any of > >the developers (and Peter the CVS-meister) have anything to say? > > I've obviously been willing since I've been doing this for over a year now. > The problem is that I have no time to work on new development myself. New > development is the "fun" part of FreeBSD. I haven't had any FreeBSD "fun" for > more than a year now, and I'm quickly approaching the burnout point (actually, > I've already burnt out; I'm currently forcing myself to continue in this role > only because I feel obligated to get the release out). > This is a difficult problem for me. I've intentionally placed myself in- > between the release tree (which is currently -stable) and -current in an > attempt to improve the quality of FreeBSD releases. If I decide not to do this > any longer, then I'm affraid that the quality of the released code will go > into the toilet. We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one > that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. The "grunt work" of synchronization needs to be automated, as much as possible, to move the load off of David. I've been where he is now (I still am, in some respects, with some of my unintegrated code), and it is not a happy place to be. I'm certainly not saying that moving -current to being closer to the goals of -stable by enforcing buildability is the *only* way, but it is most certainly *a* way. The build/token process is *another* way. I think the token process is only necessary if you can't guarantee a buildable tree at checkout (which is where I'd like to see the problem attacked). The token process also only guarantess some *eventual* success, and can't be seperately tagged, apart from checkout time, which makes it painful to build world. I think this is too intermittent to leave the -stable repository mirror of a snapshot of the -current repositopry working. An alternative (which isn't reasonable at this time) would be to provide a mechanism for CVS tree migration based on delta-tags, so that deltas up to the tag date that don't exist in the -stable tree are imported to the -stable tree based on a successful build. This grants some control over "when to move up stable" seperate from "every time a build succeeds", in a nicely automated way. I like this last (though unreasonable) way because if I allow conflict resoloution at each stage of the integration process for the delta segments, I've just bought myself the ability to maintain multiple source bases and integrate them, if only by date-cutting myself copies of the CVS tree for each one of the sub-projects I want to work on, and I can merge them into a combined project (to work on my overpass, I was talking about before). I'd still be missing the pice that lets me adjust the "merge-from" tree to resolve the conflict instead of the "merge-to", but it's a hell of a lot closer to ideal to be able to insert one delta at a time from one CVS tree (-current) into another (-stable) to incrementally update it. The missing piece is a global change log (from the writer unlock logs, presumably) to insert deltas as change span sets, so that I get all of the deltas for one self-consistent set of changes in one update/merge. I haven't spent any real time looking at CVS to see what it would take to stuff non-merge deltas in, one at a time, from another (later) tree to get a -stable tree, let alone looked at the issues of conflict resoloution for multiple tree merges. Clearly, a first step would be to tag the tree at the replication point so that local changes could be distinguished from conccurent changes in the "real" tree... from there, it would take a bit of CVS hacking to work out. 8-(. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 22:22:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA09286 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09280; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10395; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:22:14 -0700 (PDT) To: hackers@freebsd.org cc: stable@freebsd.org Reply-to: stable@freebsd.org Subject: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP is out. Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:22:13 -0700 Message-ID: <10392.834211333@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk And the subject pretty much says it all... See: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP/RELNOTES.TXT for important information before installing this thing! This is the first SNAPshot made along the 2.1-STABLE branch, for those who were wondering, and is a prelude to the anticipated 2.1.5-RELEASE. It's being released for TESTING purposes and any additional convenience you may derive from it is entirely accidental. :-) Have fun! Jordan P.S. No, I don't have an exact release date for 2.1.5-RELEASE yet. That's going to depend largely on what kinds of problems you find in this SNAPshot! :-) From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 22:31:14 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10127 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA10105; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA05423; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:01 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080525.WAA05423@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:01 -0700 (MST) Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, nate@sri.MT.net, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 10:07:40 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > > ^^^^^^ > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > > effective way to do this. > > They wouldn't enforce or even help the policy. Multiple reader/single > writer locks don't solve any significant problem we've faced. Why do > something that limits the ability of developers to commit changes when > the problem the fix happens .001% of the time? > > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. This is *not* an issue of "optimizing the boot code". This *is* an issue of removing the potential for developer checkin conflict, so that the only margin for error is that of the developer who disobeys protocol. It also *cleary* identifies the violator, and avoids needless rounds of finger-pointing, investigation, damage-control, and repair. Whoever gets the write lock before you, it's *your* responsibility to make sure *your* changes don't conflict with *his/her* changes when you get the lock. I also believe you are neglecting the fact that the CVS repository is broken up into multiple collections, and that the lock is not global to the system, it's global to the collection. This is far less likely to cause "inter-developer conflicts for write lock acquisition" than if it were all in one collection. The majority use of the tree is going to be of type "reader", not of type "writer". The programs that deal with CVS tree mirroring for the SUP and CTM servers, and local checkouts, will be the majority usage. You don't need the writer lock uless you are writing, and another developer doesn't need the writer lock unless they are committing code in the same are (in which case, it's a damn good thing you are not both going at it at once). The net results are that the claim "merge cascade failure" is no longer a valid excude for an unbuildable tree. If Jim-Bob makes the tree unbuildable, it's obvious that Jim-Bob is a protocol violator. If he does this a lot, then there should probably be a policy enforcement decision by "the grantors of tree access" to prevent future offenses. The intended effect is a buildable tree and identifiable culprits in the case of a non-buildable tree. If Jim-Bob and John-Boy make changes in the same area simultaneously, and the tree does not build, there is currently no way to assign blame. Because of this, people play "fast and loose" with the tree, hoping that it will be too dificult to track the transgressor. If Jim-Bob has to assert that John-Boy can't write the tree for him to be able to, he will think twice before writing to the tree. Hopefully, part of this "think" will include building his checked-out portion of the tree before checking it in, which is what the policy says he should do anyway. What you seem to be claiming as "limiting the ability of the developer to commit changes", is really "limiting the ability of the developer to commit changes in violation of protocol". To test your "conflict inconvenience" theory, I suggest you implement reader/writer locks with no teeth, that output "CONFLICT WITH LOCK BY USER XXX", with a time stamp, to a log. Also "in" and "out" times. Then we can examine the conflicts that arise in real usage, and determine: 1) How often the conflict is a writer wanting to write when a reader was actively reading (meaning the writer was allowed by the lack of teeth,and the reader's data has been potentially corrupted into unbuildability). 2) How often the reader whose data was potentially trashed was SUP or CTM (meaning we greatly multiplied the problem in #1). 3) How often a reader came in while a write was active (meaning the reader has made a snapshot of a potentially inconsistent tree that was avoidably corrupt by nature of allowing readers while there are writers active). 4) How often the reader whose data was potentially trashed was SUP or CTM (meaning we greatly multiplied the problem in #3). 5) How often one writer came in while another writer was in, and how many of those writes afftected header files that the affected the others work, or actual sorce files were potentially conflicted, by file. 6) Using "in" and "out", how often and whay kind of delays occurred as a result of the locks. 7) Count of total delay (delay for readers is negative, while delay for writers is positive, because of the nature of writer corruption of reader data). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 22:35:29 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10660 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10636; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA10487; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:33:49 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: davidg@Root.COM, nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:58:35 PDT." <199606080458.VAA05346@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:33:49 -0700 Message-ID: <10485.834212029@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I think the token process is only necessary if you can't guarantee a > buildable tree at checkout (which is where I'd like to see the > problem attacked). The token process also only guarantess some But it probably won't be, so let's try to be realistic. You always want to rebuild the foundation and then go away in a huff when everyone insists on building on top of the old one.. :-) I don't think it's practical to contemplate the introduction of any system that doesn't sit easily on top of existing tools. Not at this time. The tokens aren't elegant, but they'll *work* and that's more than we have now! > *eventual* success, and can't be seperately tagged, apart from > checkout time, which makes it painful to build world. I think > this is too intermittent to leave the -stable repository mirror > of a snapshot of the -current repositopry working. I don't quite understand this argument. You start from success, e.g. a good tree. It stays a good tree until one day the token counter decides that what it's got today is _another_ success story and it creates the CTM deltas/does a supscan/whatever. You now get these changes, do another make world and tada! It works and continues to work until the next clean transition. What's so painful about that? Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 22:36:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA10834 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA10818; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA02830; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:35:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:35:19 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080535.XAA02830@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080525.WAA05423@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606080525.WAA05423@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. > > This is *not* an issue of "optimizing the boot code". > > This *is* an issue of removing the potential for developer checkin > conflict, so that the only margin for error is that of the developer > who disobeys protocol. But we don't have a problem with checkin conflict. It's simply a non-problem. If it ain't broke, don't spend alot of time fixing it. How many times do I have to say this? > The net results are that the claim "merge cascade failure" is no > longer a valid excude for an unbuildable tree. If Jim-Bob makes > the tree unbuildable, it's obvious that Jim-Bob is a protocol > violator. If he does this a lot, then there should probably be > a policy enforcement decision by "the grantors of tree access" > to prevent future offenses. It's obvious now who breaks the tree. We don't need CVS to tell us that. > The intended effect is a buildable tree and identifiable culprits > in the case of a non-buildable tree. Since it won't help the former and the latter is already a known, what's the point? Jim-Bob and John-Boy *don't* make changes to the tree simulateously. I suppose if we had another couple hundred committers we might have this problem, but we don't. CVS == Concurent Versions System It allows concurrent access to the tree my multiple-writers *BY DESIGN*. It's NOT BROKEN anywhere except in your mind. It *WON'T* fix any problems that are of any significance in the FreeBSD build tree. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 22:40:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA11273 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Root.COM (implode.Root.COM [198.145.90.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA11249; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by Root.COM (8.7.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA12681; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080540.WAA12681@Root.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: implode.Root.COM: Host localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams cc: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:19:19 MDT." <199606080419.WAA02553@rocky.sri.MT.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 22:40:28 -0700 Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one >> that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. > >Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today >be even remotely acceptable? I think that's an interesting idea, but lets allow the issue to get a fair airing (at least a week or two) before taking any steps in this direction. We really need to kill this thread: I had 800 emails in my inbox today, and this is about twice the usual amount. I can't deal with this much email; I've been sitting here for the past 5 hours reading it all and I'm getting really sick of it. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 23:10:04 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA13944 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA13882; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA05574; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:03:59 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080603.XAA05574@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:03:59 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606080535.XAA02830@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 7, 96 11:35:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > > > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > > > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. > > > > This is *not* an issue of "optimizing the boot code". > > > > This *is* an issue of removing the potential for developer checkin > > conflict, so that the only margin for error is that of the developer > > who disobeys protocol. > > But we don't have a problem with checkin conflict. It's simply a > non-problem. If it ain't broke, don't spend alot of time fixing it. > > How many times do I have to say this? Until -current builds with no errors that can't be traced to a policy violation (and a specific violator) for a period of one month. > > The net results are that the claim "merge cascade failure" is no > > longer a valid excude for an unbuildable tree. If Jim-Bob makes > > the tree unbuildable, it's obvious that Jim-Bob is a protocol > > violator. If he does this a lot, then there should probably be > > a policy enforcement decision by "the grantors of tree access" > > to prevent future offenses. > > It's obvious now who breaks the tree. We don't need CVS to tell us > that. If "committer #1" checks in changes to modules A, B, C, and Q, and "committer #2" cheks in changes to modules X, Y, Z, and Q, and there is a cumulative conflict, who is at fault if their access was not serialized? Answer: the tools. > > The intended effect is a buildable tree and identifiable culprits > > in the case of a non-buildable tree. > > Since it won't help the former and the latter is already a known, what's > the point? You are wrong that it will not help the former. The latter is largley irrelevant as anything byt a disincentive to violate protocol, something your argument "former" implicitly assumes as one of its axioms. I will not buy your axiom, even if you phrase it this way. It is a bogus axiom. > Jim-Bob and John-Boy *don't* make changes to the tree simulateously. I > suppose if we had another couple hundred committers we might have this > problem, but we don't. > > CVS == Concurent Versions System > > It allows concurrent access to the tree my multiple-writers *BY DESIGN*. > > It's NOT BROKEN anywhere except in your mind. It *WON'T* fix any > problems that are of any significance in the FreeBSD build tree. It fixed them for the NetWare for UNIX source tree. This is historical fact. Are you arguing that history is not applicable to the current situation? What about the proposed test (which you deleted from your reply)? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 23:20:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA15042 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA15023 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA03027; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:18:47 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:18:47 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606080618.AAA03027@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: Terry Lambert Cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080603.XAA05574@phaeton.artisoft.com> References: <199606080535.XAA02830@rocky.sri.MT.net> <199606080603.XAA05574@phaeton.artisoft.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > > This *is* an issue of removing the potential for developer checkin > > > conflict, so that the only margin for error is that of the developer > > > who disobeys protocol. > > > > But we don't have a problem with checkin conflict. It's simply a > > non-problem. If it ain't broke, don't spend alot of time fixing it. > > > > How many times do I have to say this? > > Until -current builds with no errors that can't be traced to a policy > violation (and a specific violator) for a period of one month. I can go through the commit logs and show you that this is the case for over 95% of the cases, and I can point to the *exact* person responsible for it in every case. The remaining 4.5% of the cases are where things get a bit fuzzy. These are when the system can't be built because the tree isn't broken but the actual 'implementation' is in a state that the nothing works you really can't place blame on anyone. The recent VM changes made the tree unbuildable if you actually used the current build system, or when the bootstrap process isn't quite up to snuff. Once you get the system bootstrapped it'll build, but the process of getting it to a buildable state requires a bit of hackery. > If "committer #1" checks in changes to modules A, B, C, and Q, > and "committer #2" cheks in changes to modules X, Y, Z, and Q, > and there is a cumulative conflict, who is at fault if their > access was not serialized? > > Answer: the tools. Problem: 99.9% of the time no-one steps on anyone else's code. So again this is a NON-ISSUE. This simply *DOESN'T* happen Terry. No matter how many times I say it, you refuse to believe yet you've *NEVER* committed code to tree nor *EVER* seen a problem with multiple commits to the *EXACT* same code causing problems in recent history. Any more attempts to spread FUD will be emailed *only* to you. You're *wrong*, *wrong*, *wrong* about what is the problem. Again, you keep bringing up non-problems and pointing to solutions to them. Solutions to non-problems are useless. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 23:22:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA15201 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA15175; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080622.XAA15175@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Terry Lambert cc: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams), michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:03:59 PDT." <199606080603.XAA05574@phaeton.artisoft.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 23:22:48 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> But we don't have a problem with checkin conflict. It's simply a >> non-problem. If it ain't broke, don't spend alot of time fixing it. >> >> How many times do I have to say this? > >Until -current builds with no errors that can't be traced to a policy >violation (and a specific violator) for a period of one month. Policy violoations != concurrent checkin conflicts. >If "committer #1" checks in changes to modules A, B, C, and Q, >and "committer #2" cheks in changes to modules X, Y, Z, and Q, >and there is a cumulative conflict, who is at fault if their >access was not serialized? > >Answer: the tools. This just doesn't happen in this project. The problem we have to deal with is maintaining a branch that has diverged to such an extent from the main line as to be difficult to maintain. Lets stay focused on the problem we face now instead of a problem we may never face. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-stable Fri Jun 7 23:47:27 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA18044 for stable-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (phaeton.Artisoft.COM [198.17.250.211]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA18034 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA05690; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:41:31 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199606080641.XAA05690@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:41:31 -0700 (MST) Cc: terry@lambert.org, nate@sri.MT.net, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606080618.AAA03027@rocky.sri.MT.net> from "Nate Williams" at Jun 8, 96 00:18:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If "committer #1" checks in changes to modules A, B, C, and Q, > > and "committer #2" cheks in changes to modules X, Y, Z, and Q, > > and there is a cumulative conflict, who is at fault if their > > access was not serialized? > > > > Answer: the tools. > > Problem: 99.9% of the time no-one steps on anyone else's code. So > again this is a NON-ISSUE. Then you argument against single writer locks is no longer valid. Let us address your agument against reader locks: is it the fact that the checkout will be internally consistent, with no partial checkins, that you don't like? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 00:04:41 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA20325 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ref.tfs.com (ref.tfs.com [140.145.254.251]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA20303; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from julian@localhost) by ref.tfs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA21399; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080704.AAA21399@ref.tfs.com> Subject: Re: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP is out. To: stable@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:04:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "JULIAN Elischer" Cc: hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <10392.834211333@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jun 7, 96 10:22:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 ME8b] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I guess this is the julian birthday snap? (continuing on the tradition of birthday snaps..) > > > And the subject pretty much says it all... > > See: > ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.1-960606-SNAP/RELNOTES.TXT > From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 00:19:53 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22732 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from melb.werple.net.au (melb.werple.net.au [203.9.190.18]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22713 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cimaxp1.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by melb.werple.net.au (8.7.5/8.7.3/2) with UUCP id QAA00378 for mira!freebsd.org!freebsd-stable; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:19:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199606080619.QAA00378@melb.werple.net.au> Received: by cimaxp1.cimlogic.com.au; (5.65/1.1.8.2/10Sep95-0953AM) id AA32505; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:18:51 +1000 From: John Birrell Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: Root.COM!davidg@melb.werple.net.au Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:18:51 +1000 (EST) Cc: sri.MT.net!nate@melb.werple.net.au, time.cdrom.com!jkh@melb.werple.net.au, freebsd.org!hackers@melb.werple.net.au, freebsd.org!freebsd-stable@melb.werple.net.au, freebsd.org!FreeBSD-current@melb.werple.net.au In-Reply-To: <199606080406.VAA12386@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at Jun 7, 96 09:06:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I've obviously been willing since I've been doing this for over a year now. > The problem is that I have no time to work on new development myself. New > development is the "fun" part of FreeBSD. I haven't had any FreeBSD "fun" for > more than a year now, and I'm quickly approaching the burnout point (actually, > I've already burnt out; I'm currently forcing myself to continue in this role > only because I feel obligated to get the release out). ... then -stable *should* go. Those people who think they need -stable, will just have to put up with the releases. And if that's not sufficient, then they can contribute the resources to put out minor releases (of patches?) between the major ones. I think it is unreasonable for people to expect new functionality (like the VM changes, for instance) to be provided by -stable at the expense of -current development and the next release. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > -- John Birrell CIMlogic Pty Ltd jb@cimlogic.com.au 119 Cecil Street Ph +61 3 9690 6900 South Melbourne Vic 3205 Fax +61 3 9690 6650 Australia Mob +61 18 353 137 From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 00:48:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28118 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28107 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA02990; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:48:08 -0700 (PDT) To: "JULIAN Elischer" cc: stable@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:04:18 PDT." <199606080704.AAA21399@ref.tfs.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:48:08 -0700 Message-ID: <2988.834220088@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I guess this is the julian birthday snap? (continuing on the tradition > of birthday snaps..) [Geeze, hackers can never just come right out and say "It's my birthday, everybody! Wahoo!" :-)] Happy birthday then, Julian! How old are you then? Creeping up on the big four-oh, aren't we there? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 01:25:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA07219 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from GndRsh.aac.dev.com (GndRsh.aac.dev.com [198.145.92.241]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA07088; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rgrimes@localhost) by GndRsh.aac.dev.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA13112; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:15 -0700 From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199606080825.BAA13112@GndRsh.aac.dev.com> Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view To: davidg@Root.COM Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nate@sri.MT.net, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-Reply-To: <199606080540.WAA12681@Root.COM> from David Greenman at "Jun 7, 96 10:40:28 pm" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL11 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >> We need a new model. One that keeps the quality high and one > >> that doesn't prevent me from doing new development. > > > >Do you have any suggestions? Would creating a new 'stable' tree today > >be even remotely acceptable? > > I think that's an interesting idea, but lets allow the issue to get a fair > airing (at least a week or two) before taking any steps in this direction. I have heard some mistatments, and incorrect assumptions about what -stable was/is, when it was created, and how it was _suppose_ to work. The above ``idea'' posted by Nate, is infact the _closest_ thing that has been said to what I had intended to occur when I set this up some 13 months ago. Here is a more accurate history, from the horses mouse so to speak since it was I who proposed this whole thing, and it was I how did the CVS work to create them. a) I merged RELENG_2_0_5 (a branch) into the HEAD, then pulled the RELENG_2_1_0 branch out so that work could begin on the next CDROM release at 2.1, which was suppose to take a month or so to do, it dragged, but did get done with a fairly small delta set (do a cvs rdiff -rRELENG_2_1_0_BP -rRELENG_2_1_0_RELEASE to see it). Mean while developement work was to (and has) continue on the HEAD branch. b) The RELENG_2_1_0 branch was to continue life as a _maintance_ / _bugfix_ branch known as -stable to support those users out there who needed this. It was _NEVER_ meant to last longer than 4 months (remember, back then everyone still wanted to see 2 to 4 releases a year.) It was _never_ meant to have a _SECOND_ full blown release rolled out of it, unless it was down within the 3 to 4 month window. c) It was the intention that some 3 months after 2.1 rolled out the door that the release engineering team for 2.2 _should_ be keeping an eye on HEAD to decide _when_ to pop down the RELENG_2_2_0_BP point tag, and start the RELENG_2_2_0 branch. [Never happened, and probably should have been what happened when Jordan attempted to do the MEGA merge of HEAD into RELENG_2_1_0.] d) After the release team had played with this new RELENG_2_2_0 branch for a week or so getting into a buildable state it would be rolled out in alpha form to start the alpha/beta/release testing. e) Once RELENG_2_2_0 was actually released (ie, RELENG_2_2_0_RELEASE had be applied as a tag) it would become the -stable bits. A flaw in my logic was that I called the mailing lists -stable, and the sup collections, etc that as well. I should have called it all branch-2.1, as now there is no easy way, except to have a ``flag day'', to replace the -stable sup/ctm collections on Freefall. > We really need to kill this thread: I had 800 emails in my inbox today, and > this is about twice the usual amount. I can't deal with this much email; I've > been sitting here for the past 5 hours reading it all and I'm getting really > sick of it. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > -- Rod Grimes rgrimes@gndrsh.aac.dev.com Accurate Automation Company Reliable computers for FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 01:41:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA11565 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.aros.net (mailhub.aros.net [205.164.111.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA11525 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terra.aros.net (terra.aros.net [205.164.111.10]) by mailhub.aros.net (8.7.5/Unknown) with ESMTP id DAA03201; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:17:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from angio@localhost) by terra.aros.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) id CAA31119; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:41:40 -0600 From: Dave Andersen Message-Id: <199606080841.CAA31119@terra.aros.net> Subject: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. To: davidg@Root.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:41:39 -0600 (MDT) Cc: stable@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199606080240.TAA12036@Root.COM> from "David Greenman" at Jun 7, 96 07:40:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Trimmed to -stable only, with a CC: to jordan because of the credit card suggestion] Two topics: 2) -stable 1) Credit cards for donations - can W.C. help here? 1) Credit cards for donations. Someone mentioned a few (dozen) messages ago that they weren't aware of an easy way to donate to FreeBSD, Inc. It's apparent in the web pages, but frankly, I would bet that human laziness is a large factor here. Would it be possible for W.C., Inc. to provide facilities for FreeBSD, Inc. to accept donations via credit card? Frankly, I'll be the first in line to send in a $25 donation for one of the servers I have littering the floor here. (Yes, that's a promise). I think that something along these lines, if it's not too difficult for W.C. to do, would be a huge contribution to FreeBSD. Lo and behold, David Greenman once said: > > I really don't think that using a different source control system is going > to make any difference. The problem we're faced with is with the source trees > diverging too quickly. No matter what source control system we use, it's still [...] > happening in -current. It's possible to manage for about the first 3 months, > but when the time approaches 1 year (like it is now), it becomes a bloody > nightmare. I think this suggests a very logical move for the development of -stable, then. Create a release, give it two months of development, and then freeze it and forget about it completely. If the interest is still there in -stable progressing after that point, create a new -stable off of the current -current tree. Give it two months where you integrate _only_ stabalizing/necessary changes and not radical changes to the source tree, and then freeze it again. Repeat as necessary. It won't be the same -stable people are used to now - it will be more of a "stable current". But given that that is, in effect, the reason people run -stable *anyway*, it would probably be a fairly popular option. Think of it as "-stable on the edge" (if that's not an oxymoron... :) Quite obviously, maintaining -stable (or this discussion!) at the expense of the future progression of FreeBSD in general is an obviously stupid thing when viewed in that context. Either get a new paradigm for -stable, or trash it entirely. Those of us who rely upon it can make do with patches. -Dave Andersen -- angio@aros.net Complete virtual hosting and business-oriented system administration Internet services. (WWW, FTP, email) http://www.aros.net/ http://www.aros.net/about/virtual "There are only two industries that refer to thier customers as 'users'." From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 01:49:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA13853 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pegasus.com (pegasus.com [140.174.243.13]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13756; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pegasus.com (8.6.8/PEGASUS-2.2) id WAA09300; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:48:32 -1000 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:48:32 -1000 From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk) Message-Id: <199606080848.WAA09300@pegasus.com> In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view)" (Jun 7, 7:40pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk } > Damn good idea. I think your 100% right. Gimme an address and ill send } > money. I think the old saying put up or shut up pretty much is the bottom } > line here. If we want -stable to continue we will have to take up the } } Make checks payable to FreeBSD, Inc. [...] } It would be cool if someone could add a `Contributor' message to the FreeBSD t-shirt and make it available to folks that donate, say $100 or more. From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 02:27:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA25185 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA25087; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27176; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:33:53 +0300 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:33:52 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Nate Williams , FreeBSD Hackers , FreeBSD Stable Users , FreeBSD current users Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > doing a *ton* of work in both -stable and -current. However, it's a > > *LOT* of work. However, I don't think this has anything to do with CVS, > > but has to do with the diverging of the trees. P3 may make it easier to > > do as far as resources, but the actual work of 'merging' in changes to > > both won't be any easier. Building the patches is the hard work IMHO, > > I think you're forgetting the problem with cvs where: > > 1. You make a change in -release. > 2. You merge it into -stable. > 3. You make another change in -release. Sorry if I am misunderstanding something, but shouldn't the change have been made in -stable and not in -release? Sander > 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* > of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 02:29:25 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA26010 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [206.117.70.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA25994 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([127.0.0.1]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA07412; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606080929.CAA07412@kachina.jetcafe.org> X-Authentication-Warning: kachina.jetcafe.org: Host [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 02:29:14 -0700 From: Dave Hayes Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: >I wrote: >> Isn't that what the SNAPs are really for? Correct me if I'm wrong (and >> who out there won't?) but aren't these supposed to be "more stable >> snapshots" of -current? >Exactly the opposite (please see the handbook entry on snapshots). So why did I get that impression? Hmm...-what- handbook entry on snapshots? It's not in the table of contents and I can't grep through WWW pages without a search engine. 8-) >They're made when we want to test something. Can I quote you? >> On a related note, software I deliver to customers is (usually) >> accompanied by Q&A procedures. Is there *any* way to Q&A an entire >> UNIX system in an automated fashion? One solution to the "-stable" >Not really, no. Certainly not with our resources, anyway! It was just a thought. When I write code, and fix a bug, I write a test case that tickles the bug. Voila...I don't have to fix the bug again. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave@jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet True freedom requires taking responsibility for your own life. That frightens the hell out of too many people. They prefer to have Big Brother holding a safety net for them, and they'll sell their own birthright and their children's as well to keep it. --F. Paul Wilson From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 02:33:02 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA27501 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA27476 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:32:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA05796; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:32:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Dave Hayes cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Status of -stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 02:29:14 PDT." <199606080929.CAA07412@kachina.jetcafe.org> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 02:32:48 -0700 Message-ID: <5794.834226368@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > So why did I get that impression? Hmm...-what- handbook entry on > snapshots? It's not in the table of contents and I can't grep > through WWW pages without a search engine. Sorry, it's off the "news flash" page - http://www.freebsd.org/releases/snapshots.html > > >They're made when we want to test something. > > Can I quote you? Yes, that's always been my intention with SNAPs. They're made for our benefit, not the users' :-) [well, indirectly them too] > It was just a thought. When I write code, and fix a bug, I write a > test case that tickles the bug. Voila...I don't have to fix the bug > again. That's a lot easier when you're testing software for which test cases are easily derived and run. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 02:46:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA01258 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA01183; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 02:46:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA27336; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:53:38 +0300 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:53:38 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16972.834190075@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eat good food, preserve nature, be nice to all nice people :) On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I don't have a full-time engineer at present to devote to this, nor can > > I afford the single mistake that destroys our environment. I can put > > someone on this with a 4-10 hour per week commitment, but that's about it. > > .. > > Somehow, the -STABLE intent must remain. I don't care *how* it is > > accomplished, but it has to be accomplished. An example of the problems is > > Well, then I think it's time for you ISPs to start donating more > resources to us. > > It's a pretty simple equation which would be solved in the commercial > world by us charging you more money. Since we're not in the > commercial world, then it stands to reason that if you or anyone else > wants feature or service "X", which we claim is beyond our resources, > then it's your task to ensure that we have the resources we need. > > Knowing your position of relative wealth (far more than any of ours), > why not hire a part-timer and "give" him to us? He can work with the > other full or part time programmers the other ISPs (or other > commercial interests) hire to make -stable everything you want it to > be. Everybody gets what they want then - we stop having our very > limited resources bifurcated, you get your -stable branch. > > Anyway, let's Just Do It or stop pounding shoes on the table talking > about how "-stable MUST NOT DIE!" and it's up to the current > developers to pull a rabbit out of their hats and somehow make it all > work. I'd be happy to talk to Karl (or anyone else) about co-managing > whatever human resources they can donate to the project. > > I should also note here that any other proposals which involve me or > anyone closely involved in -current development doing the work will be > politely deleted - I think I've already made my position more than > clear and I will not be budged on it. It's just too much work, > members of the core team have complained to me in private that -stable > was sucking the life force out of the project (or refused to > participate in -stable at all) and they wished we'd stop, this is not > a problem that suddenly appeared - it's been 15 months in the making > and now we need some additional man power if we're going to deal with > it in any more permanant fashion. > > As I said, I'd be more than happy to talk with the "vested interest" > folks in seeing how they personally might not take more responsibility > for the -stable service they've come to appreciate. Everyone always > talks about how they'd like to give something back, well, here's a > golden opportunity! Give me about 2 - 3 part-time employees and I'll > give you back a -stable that will make all of us very happy. > A great idea! But why does this all openly come out only now? At least part of the solution might be just saying - maintainers and mergerers for stable needed! Would more volunteer based development of -stable be realy that hard? 1) If you want to get a given feature in -current, what do you do? You ask if somebody is working on it, join in if somebody is and do it yourself if it isn't. 2) Couldn't maintaining of stable look like: a) The core team suggest that it would be nice if somebody would bring feature x over to -stable. b) Person y responds - I'll look into that (and most probably some more persons join him) c) While tracking -stable, y ports featrure x over to stable and make sure it does not affect it's stability d) when ready, he makes the diffs available and people test them out (NB! it is not commite yet) e) Concensus says - it's stable. Now is the point the thing shall be (if it hasn't already) be taken into close consideration by a core-team member, who will in some time commit it. 3) If enough changes are not brought over quickly enough, the core-team takes -current from some point of time, renames it to -semi-stable and put's it in for the stablity testing for being renamed to -stable Any big troubles with that scheme? (Yes, I really love -stable) Sander > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 03:30:36 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA14485 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de [141.76.1.11]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA14224; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de by irz301.inf.tu-dresden.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with ESMTP id MAA01883; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:29:40 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id MAA28303; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:29:39 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.7.5/8.6.9) id LAA12249; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:44:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: J Wunsch Message-Id: <199606080944.LAA12249@uriah.heep.sax.de> Subject: Re: Status of -stable To: nate@sri.MT.net (Nate Williams) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:44:37 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: stable@FreeBSD.org, committers@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199606060421.WAA24403@rocky.sri.MT.net> from Nate Williams at "Jun 5, 96 10:21:36 pm" X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Nate Williams wrote: > Note, *IF* you ended up with libc.so.3.0 built on your system, you are > in a a bit of a sticky situation. There is no longer version 3.0 of the > library, as it's been reverted back to the 2.2 version. However, *IF* Only as a reminder what's my usual trick to work around such a situation: mkdir /usr/junklib mv /usr/lib/libc.so.3.0 /usr/junklib # run chflags before if needed ldconfig -m /usr/junklib Now your existing binaries will continue to pick the 3.0 version from /usr/junklib, but all newly built programs won't pick it any longer. Rebuild your world, and you should be cured. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 03:46:16 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA18357 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA18335 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA09763; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 03:45:34 -0700 (PDT) To: Narvi cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 12:53:38 +0300." Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 03:45:34 -0700 Message-ID: <9761.834230734@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > A great idea! But why does this all openly come out only now? At least > part of the solution might be just saying - maintainers and mergerers > for stable needed! Would more volunteer based development of -stable be > realy that hard? Because I also think that if you're going to go down the road of supporting a legacy code base, you might as well do it all the way and stop fooling around with something that, if it becomes at all successful, will have highly conservative people counting on it. -stable has shown that production branches take on an identity of their own, which is a fine thing in and of itself but something with its own identity also needs a focal point to make sure that things stay on a reasonable track. I think that this needs to be at least one full-time position and, since trailing-edge development is no fun, it probably won't come from the volunteer pool (you could get someone, sure, but not the kind of full-timer I'd be hoping for). Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 04:18:10 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA25866 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA25849 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from narvi@localhost) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA28156; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:25:56 +0300 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:25:56 +0300 (EET DST) From: Narvi To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" , Greg Lehey , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <9761.834230734@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > A great idea! But why does this all openly come out only now? At least > > part of the solution might be just saying - maintainers and mergerers > > for stable needed! Would more volunteer based development of -stable be > > realy that hard? > > Because I also think that if you're going to go down the road of > supporting a legacy code base, you might as well do it all the way and > stop fooling around with something that, if it becomes at all > successful, will have highly conservative people counting on it. Yes, I may agree that people using -stable (and that includes me) may be a bit more conservative (I know people who claim that FreeBSD is alltogether conservative). But some people too need stability even if a bit more conservative stability. There used to be for some time almost a FAQ on the -questions list - i you have a AHA2940, upgrade to stable. The problem seems to be that -stable has stopped being a development base (was it even intended to be one?) and became a bug-fix base to which anything from -current is almost impossible to add. The -stable branch in itself is good, but the burden of keeping it should be mostly taken away from the shoulders of the core-team and put on the shoulders of some-one else. Let's put it on the stable-folk? And if there is no-one who can keep the -stable tree up and working, then why should it be kept? There surely is no reason to waste time of those who could be making FreeBSD much better on keeping up an older and more conservative tree. > -stable has shown that production branches take on an identity of > their own, which is a fine thing in and of itself but something with > its own identity also needs a focal point to make sure that things > stay on a reasonable track. I think that this needs to be at least > one full-time position and, since trailing-edge development is no fun, > it probably won't come from the volunteer pool (you could get someone, > sure, but not the kind of full-timer I'd be hoping for). > I have no resources for financing someone doing full-time job. I couldn't do it even here, much the less in US with US salaries. All I can contribute is my spare time and even that not before I have passed my exams (otherwise I shall have no time at all to contribute). Sander > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 04:31:43 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA29223 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NS.Contrib.Com (NS.Contrib.Com [194.77.12.2]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA29125; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from src@localhost) by NS.Contrib.Com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA27899; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:30:01 +0200 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:30:01 +0200 From: Heiko Blume Message-Id: <199606081130.NAA27899@NS.Contrib.Com> To: terry@lambert.org CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, terry@lambert.org, grog@lemis.de, hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org In-reply-to: <199606072342.QAA04537@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry Lambert on Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:42:54 -0700 (MST)) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk helloo i'd like to mention that we have implemented CVS for a big software development effort with more than 100 developers at several sites and VERY many lines of code. it works very well. however, things had to planned very carefully. my partner sascha@contrib.com has done this, so maybe the ones of you working with CVS the most should poke him a little. rgds hb From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 04:37:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA01082 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:37:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA01063; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA23140; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 04:37:50 -0700 (PDT) To: stable@freebsd.org cc: jfieber@freebsd.org Subject: "doc" distribution and merging share/doc Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 04:37:50 -0700 Message-ID: <23131.834233870@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Those of you who have already inspected the 2.1-960606-SNAP have noticed the botch with sysinstall expecting a "doc" distribution and that still being part of bin. It's harmless, so I let the SNAP live, but it should still be fixed. Since DISTRIBUTION is set in bsd.sgml.mk, it stands to reason that once this and the docs that depend on it are merged, we'll be back in sync. Does anyone from the -stable camp with commit privs volunteer? :-) We have about 2 weeks for this, so if some major changes are planned we should also hold off on merging. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 05:34:57 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA20001 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 05:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gate.fidata.fi (gate.fidata.fi [193.64.102.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA19976 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 05:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeta.fidata.fi (zeta.fidata.fi [193.64.102.5]) by gate.fidata.fi (8.7.5/8.7.Beta.12) with ESMTP id PAA02451 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:33:43 +0300 (DST) Received: (from tomppa@localhost) by zeta.fidata.fi (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06556; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:33:39 +0300 (EET DST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:33:39 +0300 (EET DST) From: Tomi Vainio Message-Id: <199606081233.PAA06556@zeta.fidata.fi> To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Problem with TCP, select or what? Reply-To: tomppa@fidata.fi Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I have strange net problems on my stable machine. Irc connections, identd, xmcd etc don't work always and perfectly. Here is example how to emulate xmcd database query with telnet. tick:~(13)% telnet cddb.ton.tut.fi 888 Trying 193.166.80.16... Connected to mylly.ton.tut.fi. Escape character is '^]'. 201 mylly CDDBP server v1.0PL0 ready at Sat Jun 8 15:18:36 1996 cddb hello tomppa tick.fidata.fi xmcd v2.0PL2 200 Hello and welcome tomppa@tick.fidata.fi running xmcd v2.0PL2. cddb query 7e0a2c0a 10 183 15823 37875 50415 66678 83428 104515 119083 138313 158238 2606 200 rock 7e0a2c0a Scorpions / Best of Scorpions Vol. 2 cddb read rock 7e0a2c0a It should continue session like this: 210 rock 7e0a2c0a CD database entry follows (until terminating `.') # xmcd 1.4 CD database file # Copyright (C) 1995 Ti Kan # # Track frame offsets: # 183 # 15823 # 37875 .... It works correctly with Solaris 2, BSDI, ISC SVR3, RiscOS, FreeBSD 2.1.0R, FreeBSD 2.1.0R with June 4 stable kernel, FreeBSD 2.1.0 April 12 stable with May 29 stable kernel. It don't work with June 7 stable or stable that I supped early May. It hangs after cddb read command. tick:~(14)% ps -xul | grep cddb tomppa 325 0.0 1.9 256 572 p1 I+ 3:18PM 0:00.07 telnet cddb.ton. 113 325 253 0 2 0 256 572 select I+ p1 0:00.07 telnet cddb.ton.tut.fi 888 tick:~(15)% netstat | grep ton tcp 0 0 tick.fidata.fi.1033 mylly.ton.tut.fi.acces ESTABLISHED Tomppa Tomi Vainio, Fimeko-Data OY Phone +358-0-4582421 Internet tomppa@fidata.fi Telefax +358-0-4582425 X.400 /C=fi/ADMD=fumail/PRMD=inet/O=fidata/S=Vainio/G=Tomi/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBMblzEp3dw9v49lg1AQFF2QP/a2gNxY/loaypKkq54O9rlKvGIEdmsrGo vL76B5A2MrMiXEn3GVjU+Ko3nyTCQH0WEwMadU+ahRlGwTgEiBtkLxmmeeTgsN27 ckExV2QFxSIWLfQvoHz7GmpRpbKkRJ0E8XChfMT4TFSTG4tTcHCjFjNyjPrDZwgY ZspYSKHyCNI= =eiyW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 08:23:59 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01278 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from parkplace.cet.co.jp (parkplace.cet.co.jp [202.32.64.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01222; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (michaelh@localhost) by parkplace.cet.co.jp (8.7.5/CET-v2.1) with SMTP id AAA18598; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 00:23:01 +0900 (JST) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 00:23:01 +0900 (JST) From: Michael Hancock To: Nate Williams cc: Terry Lambert , hackers@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD-current@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <199606080407.WAA02519@rocky.sri.MT.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jun 1996, Nate Williams wrote: > > > > Terry proposes a set of tools to help enforce the policy of always having > > ^^^^^^ > > > > I said help not guarantee. The tools would help resolve reads while > > commits are being done. Multiple reader/single writer locks are a cheap > > effective way to do this. > > They wouldn't enforce or even help the policy. Multiple reader/single > writer locks don't solve any significant problem we've faced. Why do > something that limits the ability of developers to commit changes when > the problem the fix happens .001% of the time? So what's the commit protocol now, e-mail? This sounds more limiting on a developer's schedule no matter how many committers there are. I assume there are more than two and they would probably rather focus on writing code than coordinating commits manually. > It's like making a loop that gets called once at initialization time 50% > faster while you leave the sorting algorithm which takes up 95% of CPU > time alone. It's doesn't buy you anything but a warm fuzzy feeling. I'm not convinced this analogy holds. With all the problems I saw over the last 2 weeks it sure seemed like more than a slip of commit discipline. -mike hancock From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 11:19:37 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25071 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu (halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu [18.26.0.159]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA25039; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/19Aug95-0530PM) id AA02548; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:15 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:15 -0400 From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <9606081819.AA02548@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-Reply-To: <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> References: <199606071529.JAA29241@rocky.sri.MT.net> <16852.834188423@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk < said: > 1. You make a change in -release. > 2. You merge it into -stable. > 3. You make another change in -release. > 4. You go to do another merge into -stable and wind up with a whole *mess* > of conflicts. `cvs update -j' is NOT a decent merge tool! The problem is that you need to carefully specify BOTH merge points. If you are just saying `cvs update -j HEAD foo.c', then yes, of course you are going to lose. This process works: 1. You make a change on the head. It gets rev 1.42. 2. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.41 -j1.42'. 3. You make another change on the head. It gets rev 1.43. 4. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.42 -j1.43'. Your conflicts arise because you are not correctly specifying the beginning point of the merge, and so the three-way merge program attempts to re-add the changes between 1.41 and 1.42 in addition to the changes between 1.42 and 1.43, and the conflicts arise because of the unexpected presence of those 1.42 changes in the branch version. If the changes from 1.42 and 1.43 do not themselves overlap, then the merger /ought/ to be able to deal with this (just as it does when you do a `cvs update' and the working file already contains the changes that it wants to apply from the tree). When the changes overlap, then it's impossible for the merger to tell what's going on without some external help (which is what most commercial version-management tools provide). Notice that this implies that attempting to do wholesale merges of branches is a non-starter in CVS. It /has/ to be done incrementally in order to work. Moreover, the model that CVS was really designed for is more like this: 1. You create a branch. 2. You do lots of development work on the branch. 3. You complete the development work on the branch. 4. You merge the entire branch into the head and forget about it. This works also, although it is a bit slower than it might be becaus of the way RCS represents branches. -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 13:11:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA11451 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usa.nai.net (usa.nai.net [204.71.21.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA11445; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chris.nai.net (chris.nai.net [204.71.21.7]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA20377; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:07:34 -0400 Message-ID: <31B9DDA7.4D7B@nai.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:08:07 -0400 From: chris Reply-To: chris@usa.nai.net Organization: NAI X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org CC: davidg@Root.COM, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. References: <199606080841.CAA31119@terra.aros.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Dave Andersen wrote: > Would it be possible for W.C., Inc. to provide facilities for FreeBSD, > Inc. to accept donations via credit card? Frankly, I'll be the first in > line to send in a $25 donation for one of the servers I have littering > the floor here. (Yes, that's a promise). I think that something along > these lines, if it's not too difficult for W.C. to do, would be a huge > contribution to FreeBSD. > WC has given a lot to FreeBSD, but as also made money off selling CD-ROMs. Why can't WC raise the price of the CD-ROM and kick some back to the core team? I'll glady buy CD-ROMS and pay extra instead of hosing my T-1 during a sup. What about sup subscriptions? WC has this incredibly fast machine that could support sup via subscription. FreeBSD still remains free, but the easier ways of getting it require a little extra money. Kind of like buying media from GNU vs. downloading. On another note, it is interesting that people who use free software demand "rights". Strange. From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 13:44:35 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16093 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16084; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06854; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082043.NAA06854@precipice.shockwave.com> To: chris@usa.nai.net cc: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:08:07 EDT." <31B9DDA7.4D7B@nai.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 13:43:10 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Because WC still has to COMPETE with the other CD rom guys who will sell it for WC's old price. If WC raises their prices further, then the unenlightened public will go elsewhere and WC will end up LOSING money. That's not a very nice "thank you" message for all their help. What's the alternative? Restrict distribution of FreeBSD and it's no longer is FREE. I, for one, would be very unhappy to see FreeBSD go the way of Red Hat Linux, as an example. Let's leave WC out of this. Those guys are absolutely fantastic and have done more for FreeBSD than any other company. If we can't solve this problem on our own, then we should just let FreeBSD die. People are getting the best damn operating system available on the market today, they're getting it for free. If they feel like saying thank you for all the hard work and making more hard work possible, then contribute either in time, equipment, or money. Hmm, why do I feel like a public television station? Paul From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 13:53:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA17216 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17184; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082053.NAA17184@freefall.freebsd.org> To: Garrett Wollman cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 14:19:15 EDT." <9606081819.AA02548@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 13:53:19 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Notice that this implies that attempting to do wholesale merges of >branches is a non-starter in CVS. It /has/ to be done incrementally >in order to work. Moreover, the model that CVS was really designed >for is more like this: It looks like you can also specify dates for -j, so it *may* be possible to do this by date. >-GAWollman > >-- >Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ... >wollman@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance. >Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like peopl >e >MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 14:02:34 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA18330 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usa.nai.net (usa.nai.net [204.71.21.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18305; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chris.nai.net (chris.nai.net [204.71.21.7]) by usa.nai.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA22418; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:58:53 -0400 Message-ID: <31B9E9AE.461@nai.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:59:27 -0400 From: chris Reply-To: chris@usa.nai.net Organization: NAI X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Traina CC: freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. References: <199606082043.NAA06854@precipice.shockwave.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Paul Traina wrote: > > Because WC still has to COMPETE with the other CD rom guys who will sell > it for WC's old price. > > If WC raises their prices further, then the unenlightened public will go > elsewhere and WC will end up LOSING money. That's not a very nice "thank > you" message for all their help. Maybe there needs to be an official distribution. Anyone can sell it- just pass FreeBSD $$ per copy. This OS has tremendous potential. I hate to see it not realized because of a few $$$ (or $$,$$$). From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 14:13:18 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19519 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mole.mole.org (marmot.mole.org [204.216.57.191]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA19469; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mole.mole.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA05873; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:11:39 GMT Received: from meerkat.mole.org(206.197.192.110) by mole.mole.org via smap (V1.3) id sma005869; Sat Jun 8 21:11:15 1996 Received: (from mrm@localhost) by meerkat.mole.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19115; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:11:14 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:11:14 -0700 From: "M.R.Murphy" Message-Id: <199606082111.OAA19115@meerkat.mole.org> To: terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Inre: function of -stable > > 1) we acknowled the function of -stable to be as an intermediate > tree, between -release and -current Maybe. Maybe not. Depends upon 4, below. > 2) we posit that the relationship -stable bears to -release vs. > that it bears to -current is generally acknowledged to be > indeterminate at this time, with cause cited as there being > a dichotomy in administrative policy applied to -stable that > has not been resolved Yep. > 3) we posit that the relationship goals for -current and -release > are conflicting, and that this is the source of the policy > dichotomy What? > 4) we conclude that the function of -stable needs to be defined, > since it is meeting neiter relationship criteria to the > general satisfaction of the parties involved Empahtic YEP. > 5) we note that one potential resoloution would be to eliminate > the implied -stable/-current relationship entirely (as has > been proposed by others) in favor of causing -current itself > to fulfill that role by meeting the -stable buildability > criteria, assuming the previously referenced problems are > resolved first > I suggest that it's not only the buildability of stable, but the crashlessness and bugfixedness of stable that's important. There is a real place for a bugfixed incarnation of the previous release. Curent may build fine, but if it crashes or bumps, it doesn't make it as a stable system. As it should be. This is not just a FreeBSD problem. I haven't seen a single commercial vendor that manages to provide a solution to this problem that is worth a hill of warm horse manure. -- Mike Murphy mrm@Mole.ORG +1 619 598 5874 Better is the enemy of Good From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 15:06:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25546 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25534 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA19969; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082201.PAA19969@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Schwenk, Peter" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Jun 96 16:30:02 -0700. <17017.834190202@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:01:12 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> It means if you have changes in your /etc directory from the >> distribution (you have to have *some* changes), that you need to >> carefully merge them with updated /usr/src/etc/ files by hand. It's >> not a process that can be automated. >Though I've always felt that the files which were supposed to be >non-mutable files (like /etc/netstart) should probably get installed >by a make world. It would help narrow the number of custom files >which need to be revisited each time. > Jordan Yes, but who's to decide what is non-mutable. What if I decided to remove that one and install my own super-netstart script, and a heavily modified rc? I believe everything in /etc is fair game. I think it needs to remain a hands-on task. I mean, I've been running NetBSD-current for more than a couple years, and I've customized my /etc/ some over that time in incompatible ways. Yet, in spite of the fact that I don't pull in the current src/etc changes very often (if at all) my system continues to run. My point being: if you fail to merge in the latest etc stuff on your own system, very often it will make little-to-no difference. And, if there's been something important changed, I would expect big red (well, white and dark purple in my emacs anyway ;-) letters all around it, and in the README saying to not forget it. And, this doesn't even touch /dev/ changes. I think I've only had to *change* one device the entire time I've been running current (when Charles changed the lms base minor number from 1 to 0). There have been devices added I've occasionally had to make new device entries for, but only that one device ever changed, that I can remember. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 15:08:30 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA25838 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25819; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA02414; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:11:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: Paul Traina cc: chris@usa.nai.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: What about... was: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. In-Reply-To: <199606082043.NAA06854@precipice.shockwave.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think Paul's analysis vastly oversimplifies the issue. Anybody could take a CD, and offer it at a cheaper price. Doesn't mean they'll sell enough of them to dent walnut creek. Perhaps WC could stick a sticker on the box that says "Some amount of money from this sale goes to furthering development". Or a higher-priced subscription plan. Or how about selling access to an "exclusive" mailing list, that is shared with the developers? I would pay money if my technical issue questions, as opposed to generic "anybody seen a ...." questions were sent directly to the developers, and I *knew* that it was followed by the developers. Even if not acted upon. That's essentially what I get when I buy support from BSD/OS. I rarely actually get help now (don't need it), but the messages get filed away for "future reference", and occasionally, somebody like Chris or somebody else moderately famous in the BSD community, but whose name I can't remember, sends me a more detailed treatise. Too many times, I see the hardcore developers talk about avoiding reading the lists, because it consumes too much time... I'd pay to be on a list that they would always attempt to read... Or tie the mailing list in with a higher priced FreeBSD subscription plan. The bean-counters here have a hard time with "donation", but wouldn't blink 2x if it was called a "support list", or whatever. It would be no different than purchasing a Mickey Soft Developer Network subscription. I agree with the user that said this thing has real potential. I have converted my whole operation over to FreeBSD, except for 1 box which I won't reboot, because it's been up so long, and 1 box which requires a working 2940UW driver, which at the time I installed, there wasn't, and BSD/OS had it. Frankly, a paid subscription list may work better for the developers anyway. Somebody's paying money to be on the list, the implication being that they think enough of the product to pay for the list, so it would behoove a developer to at least take a gander at the issue/problem, in order to keep the $$$'s rolling in that would hopefully pay somebody else to do menial work that the developer is currently having to do, instead of hacking on FreeBSD. On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Paul Traina wrote: > Because WC still has to COMPETE with the other CD rom guys who will sell > it for WC's old price. > > If WC raises their prices further, then the unenlightened public will go > elsewhere and WC will end up LOSING money. That's not a very nice "thank > you" message for all their help. > > What's the alternative? Restrict distribution of FreeBSD and it's > no longer is FREE. > > I, for one, would be very unhappy to see FreeBSD go the way of Red > Hat Linux, as an example. > > Let's leave WC out of this. Those guys are absolutely fantastic > and have done more for FreeBSD than any other company. If we can't > solve this problem on our own, then we should just let FreeBSD die. > > People are getting the best damn operating system available on the > market today, they're getting it for free. If they feel like saying > thank you for all the hard work and making more hard work possible, > then contribute either in time, equipment, or money. > > Hmm, why do I feel like a public television station? > > Paul > From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 15:11:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA26279 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.algonet.se (mail.algonet.se [193.12.207.206]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA26262 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (johang@aristotle.algonet.se [193.12.207.1]) by hermes.algonet.se (8.7.4/hdw.1.0) with SMTP id AAA27458 for ; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 00:10:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199606082210.AAA27458@hermes.algonet.se> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Johan Granlund" To: stable@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 01:07:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: ctm patch0116, not building Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello all Now when the feelings seems to havediead down a little :-) I read a post (that i deleted) that the builder of ctm kits was aware of that kit 115 (?) was not building even if it's working with sup.Two days later kit 116 appears and it's still not building. Wondering if the problem is still unresolved or if i have got a problem? /Johan ___________________________________________________________ Internet: Johang@Algonet.se I don't even speak for myself From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 15:26:03 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA27852 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MindBender.HeadCandy.com (root@[199.238.225.168]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27832; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.HeadCandy.com (michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1]) by MindBender.HeadCandy.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA20059; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082222.PAA20059@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> X-Authentication-Warning: MindBender.HeadCandy.com: Host michaelv@localhost.HeadCandy.com [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Jun 96 19:58:31 -0700. <16211.834202711@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:22:34 -0700 From: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> For the benefit of the aged, like myself, perhaps you could >> change the name. 8-) >Or, for the benefit of those who are poor of eyesight, like yourself, >we should simply send out these mailings in larger type. :-) Please don't! I have too much disk space allocated to mail, already, with the current type size... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael L. VanLoon michaelv@HeadCandy.com --< Free your mind and your machine -- NetBSD free un*x >-- NetBSD working ports: 386+PC, Mac 68k, Amiga, Atari 68k, HP300, Sun3, Sun4/4c/4m, DEC MIPS, DEC Alpha, PC532, VAX, MVME68k, arm32... NetBSD ports in progress: PICA, others... Roll your own Internet access -- Seattle People's Internet cooperative. If you're in the Seattle area, ask me how. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 15:48:48 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00876 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA00866 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:48:45 -0700 (PDT) From: DaveChaos@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA17580 for freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:48:18 -0400 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:48:18 -0400 Message-ID: <960608184817_213302539@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PONY UP! (was: The -stable problem: my view) Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just wanted to put my two cents in.... I really like the current way of dealing with FreeBSD. It is exactly that; free. I think the answer lies not in pay-for-tech-support but in a better public knowledge of the option to donate. I for one have tried BDSI but returned it and stuck with FreeBSD because I think you get the same quality product for one helluva lot lower price. I for one am more than willing to send a donation of $25 to FreeBSD. I still saved a few thousand dollars. Honestly though, I never knew of the option to donate. Yes, I know, it is in the handbook. But unless I was specifically looking for it.... Perhaps a small note on the main page suggesting that if you like the product and wish to support it you may send a donation. I know of an internet site that charges absolutely nothing for access; they live off of donations and they seem to be doing quite well. A lot of people just donate equipment. For FreeBSD imagine the possibilities of ISP's donating hardware.... Some people buy equipment bulk so to give an item or two to FreeBSD Inc. is a negligible loss to them but can prove to be quite useful on the FreeBSD side. Well, that's just my two cents. I'm just a poor college student so forgive my desire for free software! ;) To the FreeBSD team, a big thanks for all your hard work! -Dave From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 15:52:08 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01311 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from precipice.shockwave.com (precipice.shockwave.com [171.69.108.33]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA01303; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shockwave.com (localhost.shockwave.com [127.0.0.1]) by precipice.shockwave.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09118; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606082250.PAA09118@precipice.shockwave.com> To: Jaye Mathisen cc: chris@usa.nai.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What about... was: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:11:58 PDT." Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:50:27 -0700 From: Paul Traina Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jaye, There's nothing stopping anyone from doing just that. Go out, grab a snapshot of 2.2, and start selling support. Charge people for access to the supporters. Maybe some of the original FreeBSD crew will join your company (cf. Cygnus). I can only speak for myself, but *I* do this for fun. If someone was paying money to FreeBSD, Inc. for "support" and I was obligated to read their mail, they're going to nag me for support because they expect it. I'm afraid when I work for money, I take the job seriously, and I charge appropriately, and I suspect that most people reading this list would be utterly aghast if they heard what I charge. If you want a commercially supported BSD based operating system, there's a wonderful one already available. If you want to put up with the vagaries of FreeBSD, which has a rich contributor pool (thankfully not as rich as the Linux crowd), then you're welcome. Writing new code is fun. Keeping other people's computers running is less so. We do the later because we think FreeBSD is cool and like to spread the word. I was originally violently opposed to dropping the concept of a -stable branch, but supporting only -current is starting to sound better and better every time I think about it. Paul From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 16:13:39 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04248 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04215; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01671; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:09:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Garrett Wollman cc: Nate Williams , hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Hackers), freebsd-stable@freebsd.org (FreeBSD Stable Users), FreeBSD-current@freebsd.org (FreeBSD current users) Subject: Re: The -stable problem: my view In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 14:19:15 EDT." <9606081819.AA02548@halloran-eldar.lcs.mit.edu> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:09:00 -0700 Message-ID: <1668.834275340@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > 1. You make a change on the head. It gets rev 1.42. > 2. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.41 -j1.42'. > 3. You make another change on the head. It gets rev 1.43. > 4. You merge it into the branch with `cvs update -j1.42 -j1.43'. Yes, this is essentially how I do it now (well, I tend to batch the merges so it's not just one version being brought over at a time), I'm just saying that I shouldn't *have* to remember what changed when - I want an SCM tool which supports the concept of repeated merges, plain and simple, and does this kind of grunt-work *for* me. Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 16:25:17 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA05480 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zen.nash.org (nash.pr.mcs.net [204.95.47.72]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05285 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by zen.nash.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id RAA17882; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:52:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:52:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606082252.RAA17882@zen.nash.org> From: Alex Nash To: mrcpu@cdsnet.net Cc: pst@shockwave.com, chris@usa.nai.net, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: What about... was: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. Reply-to: alex@FreeBSD.org Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ Removed freebsd-current from Cc list ] > I think Paul's analysis vastly oversimplifies the issue. Anybody could > take a CD, and offer it at a cheaper price. Doesn't mean they'll sell > enough of them to dent walnut creek. > > Perhaps WC could stick a sticker on the box that says "Some amount of > money from this sale goes to furthering development". > > Or a higher-priced subscription plan. I think Paul hit the nail on the head. There are other games in town, not all of them called FreeBSD (one was recently referred to as Unix A on -hackers). Newbies who don't understand the difference between "Unix A" and FreeBSD will end up using Unix A because they can pick it up on CD for $5 (or whatever the sale-of-the-week price is on Unix A). > Or how about selling access to an "exclusive" mailing list, that is shared > with the developers? I would hate to see FreeBSD users split up into economic classes. Recently, someone posted to comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc asking if anyone could copy the WC CD for her. Apparently she was a college student that wanted to try FreeBSD, but couldn't afford the $40 asking price. > The bean-counters here have a hard time with "donation", but wouldn't > blink 2x if it was called a "support list", or whatever. Sad, but very true :( Alex From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 16:44:22 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07480 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA07470; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01900; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 16:43:22 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Traina cc: chris@usa.nai.net, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 13:43:10 PDT." <199606082043.NAA06854@precipice.shockwave.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 16:43:22 -0700 Message-ID: <1898.834277402@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Hmm, why do I feel like a public television station? Because we find ourselves in a remarkably similar situation? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 17:03:06 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09033 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA09016 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA01996; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:02:27 -0700 (PDT) To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" cc: "Schwenk, Peter" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:01:12 PDT." <199606082201.PAA19969@MindBender.HeadCandy.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 17:02:27 -0700 Message-ID: <1994.834278547@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Yes, but who's to decide what is non-mutable. What if I decided to > remove that one and install my own super-netstart script, and a > heavily modified rc? I believe everything in /etc is fair game. Well, I thought that way too once, but I'm now coming to believe that about 50% of what's in /etc is old legacy crap (and I'm probably being generous) and the other 49% is boilerplate with hooks that just doesn't _need_ to change. The remaining 1% should be distilled-down system-specific data which is the only part you consider 'hands off.' Now, if there's something you really need to do that the existing hooks don't cover, then I think it's a good time to add another generalized hook and get it committed, not declare large parts of /etc hands-off and condemned to mustiness. /etc has been a dumping ground for too long now - let's clean the damn thing up! :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 17:34:15 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13126 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schizo.cdsnet.net (schizo.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.32]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13119 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mrcpu@localhost) by schizo.cdsnet.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA03299; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:32:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Jaye Mathisen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" , "Schwenk, Peter" , "freebsd-stable@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-Reply-To: <1994.834278547@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Maybe SysV style rc/init scripts? I hadn't used them much until we got an Alpha, and once the learning hump was over, they were pretty nice.. On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Well, I thought that way too once, but I'm now coming to believe that > about 50% of what's in /etc is old legacy crap (and I'm probably being > generous) and the other 49% is boilerplate with hooks that just > doesn't _need_ to change. The remaining 1% should be distilled-down > system-specific data which is the only part you consider 'hands off.' From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 18:37:24 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20627 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU [136.152.64.181]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20608 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.9) id SAA19261; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606090137.SAA19261@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19411.834116092@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable From: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk * to wcarchive for everyone else to enjoy, also spamming thud.freebsd.org * with it so that we can start creating the 2.1.5 package set. So, when are you planning to downgrade thud? :) Satoshi From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 19:13:21 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA25266 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orion.webspan.net (root@orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.41]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA25251; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (scanner@localhost) by orion.webspan.net (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA13615; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:13:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Watson To: Paul Traina cc: Jaye Mathisen , chris@usa.nai.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What about... was: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. In-Reply-To: <199606082250.PAA09118@precipice.shockwave.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Paul Traina wrote: > I can only speak for myself, but *I* do this for fun. If someone was > paying money to FreeBSD, Inc. for "support" and I was obligated to read > their mail, they're going to nag me for support because they expect it. Support bad.. very very bad :) > I'm afraid when I work for money, I take the job seriously, and I charge > appropriately, and I suspect that most people reading this list would be > utterly aghast if they heard what I charge. > If you want a commercially supported BSD based operating system, there's > a wonderful one already available. If you want to put up with the vagaries > of FreeBSD, which has a rich contributor pool (thankfully not as rich as > the Linux crowd), then you're welcome. gack you had to mention the "L" word didnt you. > Writing new code is fun. Keeping other people's computers running is less > so. We do the later because we think FreeBSD is cool and like to spread > the word. > I was originally violently opposed to dropping the concept of a -stable > branch, but supporting only -current is starting to sound better and > better every time I think about it. I have come around to that thinking myself since the day after i started my gripe about -stable sticking around. I think what we are seeing here is that FreeBSD has become so popular among corporate and mission critical places, That these places are run by suits or admins who are used to "commercial" grade OS's. Which FreeBSD pounds into the ground i believe. And these people are not grasping the concept of how little help you folks have. And that this is not a commercial OS. The comments of david and yourself and a few others the last week has projected a feeling that some of you are just burning out on this project. I would ahte to see that happen, and im hoping that if nothing else comes out of this that the core team gets more help and more donations of a financial nature to help lighten the enourmous load you guys have. Im quite comfortable now having gotten used to -stable for my ISP and taken it for granted that going back to the old way of just releasing snaps of the upcoming version at intervals of stability is the best way to go. I dont think theres much of a need to discuss the demise of -stable anymore. It's just to big of a monster to tackle right now with given resources. Besides if this -stable issue doesnt die soon im gonna have to start greping my mail and rm'ing anything with stable in it :) These are my rantings for today. Chris -- ===================================| Webspan Inc., ISP Division. FreeBSD 2.1.0 is available now! | Phone: 908-367-8030 ext. 126 -----------------------------------| 500 West Kennedy Blvd., Lakewood, NJ-08701 Turning PCs into Workstations | E-Mail: scanner@webspan.net http://www.freebsd.org | SysAdmin / Network Engineer / Security ===================================| Member BSDNET team! http://www.bsdnet.org From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 20:16:44 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA04442 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrtc.org (root@waena.mrtc.org [199.4.33.17]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA04408 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caliban.dihelix.com (caliban.dihelix.com [199.4.33.251]) by mrtc.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08442 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:17:17 -1000 Received: (from langfod@localhost) by caliban.dihelix.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id RAA02635 for stable@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:16:37 -1000 (HST) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:16:37 -1000 (HST) From: David Langford Message-Id: <199606090316.RAA02635@caliban.dihelix.com> To: stable@freebsd.org Subject: PANIC with Stable June 7th (bad dir?) Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk What does the following panic mean? (i.e where should I start looking to fix it) Jun 8 15:05:02 news /kernel: /news: bad dir ino 144771 at offset 55374: mangledentry Jun 8 15:05:02 news /kernel: panic: bad dir Jun 8 15:05:03 news /kernel: Jun 8 15:05:03 news /kernel: syncing disks... FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Fri Jun 700:38:56 HST 1996 The partition in question is: /dev/sd0e 4021740 224664 3475336 6% /news ahc0 rev 3 int a irq 11 on pci0:12 ahc0: aic7870 Single Channel, SCSI Id=7, 16 SCBs (ahc0:0:0): "CONNER CFP4207S 4.28GB 1524" type 0 fixed SCSI 2 sd0(ahc0:0:0): Direct-Access 4096MB (8388608 512 byte sectors) sd0(ahc0:0:0): with 3999 cyls, 20 heads, and an average 104 sectors/track  Thanks, David Langford langfod@dihelix.com From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 20:22:19 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA05331 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA05326 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:22:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA02540; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:21:44 -0700 (PDT) To: asami@cs.berkeley.edu (Satoshi Asami) cc: michaelv@HeadCandy.com, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Installing FreeBSD-stable In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 08 Jun 1996 18:37:14 PDT." <199606090137.SAA19261@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 20:21:44 -0700 Message-ID: <2538.834290504@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Soon, sorry - I haven't had a chance to make it in yet. Too much bloody email! :-) Jordan > * to wcarchive for everyone else to enjoy, also spamming thud.freebsd.org > * with it so that we can start creating the 2.1.5 package set. > > So, when are you planning to downgrade thud? :) > > Satoshi From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 20:37:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA07521 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA07504 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA05403; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:36:24 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:36:24 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606090336.VAA05403@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: David Langford Cc: stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PANIC with Stable June 7th (bad dir?) In-Reply-To: <199606090316.RAA02635@caliban.dihelix.com> References: <199606090316.RAA02635@caliban.dihelix.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What does the following panic mean? > (i.e where should I start looking to fix it) > > > Jun 8 15:05:02 news /kernel: /news: bad dir ino 144771 at offset 55374: mangledentry > Jun 8 15:05:02 news /kernel: panic: bad dir > Jun 8 15:05:03 news /kernel: > Jun 8 15:05:03 news /kernel: syncing disks... FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Fri Jun 700:38:56 HST 1996 You should figure out why your partition is hosed. It's possible (nay, probably) that if the machines is shutdown 'incorrectly' (crashed, turned off, power lost, etc..) that the normal 'fsck' process run in -stable won't clean up everything on the disk. You need to re-fsck the disks until they come out clean. This is a genuine bug that is *probably* fixed in current, but given that I'm not 100% sure the fix is correct I didn't bring it into -stable. Or, if you've got a bad cache it will write out bad data to the disk, thus causing panics at random places. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 21:07:11 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA11449 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solar.os.com (root@solar.os.com [199.232.136.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA11443 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jupiter (jupiter.os.com [199.232.136.66]) by solar.os.com (8.7/8.7.0) with SMTP id AAA03770; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 00:07:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199606090407.AAA03770@solar.os.com> X-Sender: craigs@solar X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 00:04:14 -0400 To: Nate Williams From: craigs@os.com (Craig Shrimpton) Subject: Re: PANIC with Stable June 7th (bad dir?) Cc: stable@freebsd.org Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Or, if you've got a bad cache it will write out bad data to the disk, >thus causing panics at random places. > Do you mean bad cache as in SRAM cache? Or are you talking about disk cache as in virtual memory? -Craig =================================================================== Orbit Internet Email: craigs@os.com 400 Grove Street Phone: (508) 753-8776 Worcester, MA 01605 http://www.os.com/ From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 21:11:54 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA12231 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.sri.MT.net (rocky.sri.MT.net [204.182.243.10]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA12223 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.sri.MT.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA05436; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:11:47 -0600 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:11:47 -0600 From: Nate Williams Message-Id: <199606090411.WAA05436@rocky.sri.MT.net> To: craigs@os.com (Craig Shrimpton) Cc: Nate Williams , stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PANIC with Stable June 7th (bad dir?) In-Reply-To: <199606090407.AAA03770@solar.os.com> References: <199606090407.AAA03770@solar.os.com> Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Or, if you've got a bad cache it will write out bad data to the disk, > >thus causing panics at random places. > > > > Do you mean bad cache as in SRAM cache? Or are you talking about disk cache > as in virtual memory? SRAM cache. If this is a fairly new system, this is often caused by bad cache RAM. The easiest way to check it is to disable cache and see if crashes occur again. Nate From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 21:14:51 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA12640 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from solar.os.com (root@solar.os.com [199.232.136.65]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA12630 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jupiter (jupiter.os.com [199.232.136.66]) by solar.os.com (8.7/8.7.0) with SMTP id AAA03784; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 00:15:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199606090415.AAA03784@solar.os.com> X-Sender: craigs@solar X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 00:11:54 -0400 To: Nate Williams From: craigs@os.com (Craig Shrimpton) Subject: Re: PANIC with Stable June 7th (bad dir?) Cc: stable@freebsd.org Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> >SRAM cache. If this is a fairly new system, this is often caused by bad >cache RAM. The easiest way to check it is to disable cache and see if >crashes occur again. > Hmmm... I wonder if this is what's been happening to me lately. I'm getting random re-boots without any log messages. I was attributing it to the "blown" sups over the last couple of weeks. -Craig =================================================================== Orbit Internet Email: craigs@os.com 400 Grove Street Phone: (508) 753-8776 Worcester, MA 01605 http://www.os.com/ From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 22:45:49 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA22410 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.cts.com (mailhub.cts.com [192.188.72.25]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA22397 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.cts.com(really [198.68.174.34]) by mailhub.cts.com via smail with esmtp id for ; Sat, 8 Jun 96 22:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.1.92 1996-Mar-19 #3 built 1996-Apr-21) Received: (from mdavis@localhost) by io.cts.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) id WAA00660 for stable@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Morgan Davis Message-Id: <199606090545.WAA00660@io.cts.com> Subject: scprobe RESET failure To: stable@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:45:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-stable@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk When I boot up, I now get: FreeBSD 2.1-STABLE #0: Sat Jun 8 22:35:12 PDT 1996 ... Probing for devices on the ISA bus: scprobe: keyboard RESET failed (result = 0xfa) But, the keyboard still works. Ideas? Also, I've seen this for quite some time: wdc0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7 irq 14 on isa wdc0: unit 0 (wd0): <> wd0: size unknown, using BIOS values wd0: 406MB (832608 sectors), 826 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S wdc0: unit 1 (wd1): <> wd1: size unknown, using BIOS values wd1: 406MB (832608 sectors), 826 cyls, 16 heads, 63 S/T, 512 B/S Is this because the disklabel isn't right and it has to go to BIOS to determine the geometry? --Morgan From owner-freebsd-stable Sat Jun 8 22:54:52 1996 Return-Path: owner-stable Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA23995 for stable-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netrail.net (nathan@netrail.net [205.215.6.3]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA23974; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (nathan@localhost) by netrail.net (8.7.5/Netrail) with SMTP id BAA17863; Sun, 9 Jun 1996 01:54:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 01:54:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Nathan Stratton To: Chris Watson cc: Paul Traina , Jaye Mathisen , chris@usa.nai.net, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: What about... was: Re: -Stable, credit card donations to FreeBSD, Inc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-stable@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Chris Watson wrote: > I have come around to that thinking myself since the day after i started > my gripe about -stable sticking around. I think what we are seeing here is > that FreeBSD has become so popular among corporate and mission critical > places, That these places are run by suits or admins who are used to > "commercial" grade OS's. Which FreeBSD pounds into the ground i believe. > And these people are not grasping the concept of how little help you folks > have. And that this is not a commercial OS. The comments of david and > yourself and a few others the last week has projected a feeling that some > of you are just burning out on this project. I would ahte to see that > happen, and im hoping that if nothing else comes out of this that the core > team gets more help and more donations of a financial nature to help > lighten the enourmous load you guys have. Im quite comfortable now having > gotten used to -stable for my ISP and taken it for granted that going back > to the old way of just releasing snaps of the upcoming version at > intervals of stability is the best way to go. I dont think theres much of > a need to discuss the demise of -stable anymore. It's just to big of a > monster to tackle right now with given resources. > Besides if this -stable issue doesnt die soon im gonna have to start > greping my mail and rm'ing anything with stable in it :) We use FreeBSD for our routers and servers, we are not large but would like to help in any way we can. Can someone setup a www page of what is needed and a way for people to send money? I know that netrail and many other ISPs would send you money and hardware for support if we just knew what the needs were and had a way of say paying you via CC or something. Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34