From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 00:41:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA04883 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04868 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 00:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA15225; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:41:12 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA10225; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:11:11 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970907171110.27847@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 17:11:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Simon Shapiro Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <199709070512.AAA00465@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 11:58:22PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved to -chat) On Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 11:58:22PM -0700, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Hi "John S. Dyson"; On 07-Sep-97 you wrote: > > What you are all running into is the fact that, for a smoothly run system, > you need a certain balance between I/O, memory (capacity & bandwidth, > both), and CPU. > > If you compare a 14" disk pack from the mid-seventies (SMDE) to a disk > drive of today, you see that capacity climbed nicely (about 30x), > performance has barely moved (I am NOT talking about 5MB Shugart 5.25"!), > being that a good SMDE drive could do about 5MB/sec or even better, while > CPU's jumped almost 300x! Well, I can't remember the performance of the mid-70s, but my recollection of the performance in the early 80s on, say, a 3330 clone was that these drives had 30 sectors (2 spares) per track, and they ran at 3600 rpm. Since they weren't buffered, that gives a maximum data transfer to the channel of about 860 kB/s. Average positioning was round the 30 to 35 ms mark. At the time, I was working for Tandem. We noticed a puzzling behaviour: our new flagship model TXP, whose CPU was about 100% faster than the previous NonStop II, read data off these disks at almost exactly double the speed of the NonStop II. Why? We finally figured out that we were reading 4 kB blocks (the maximum our disk controllers would allow), doing some processing, and then issuing the next read. Unfortunately, on the NonStop II this took such a long time that the head had passed the next block before it issued the read. In other words, the "high performance" TXP managed to read a 4 kB block every revolution, and the NonStop II needed two revolutions per 4 kB block. This may sound funny until you look at the data transfer rates involved. On the TXP, it was 240 kB per second, on the NonStop II it was 120. Raw disk rate. > BTW, the architecture (in realizable terms) of the typical disk controller > has not changed at all since the IBM-PC, and even the best caching > SCSI controller is primitive when compared to a 1963 IBM mainframe, and not > much faster. Again, I can't agree in the slightest. I *do* have the technical doc for a 2311 drive floating around somewhere in the shed, and they were unbelievably primitive. > The young ones amoung you, I have a challenge for you (old folks like me > can think no more :-): You're not the only old fart around here. > Don't bellyache about disk performance. It will just get worst > (at 50%/year, last I checked). > > Come up with a new I/O ARCHITECTURE. Totally new. The first one to come > up with a truely random storage device with capacity of 1GB and performance > of (sustained) 100MB/Sec Sounds like a 1 GB RAM to me. Still cheaper per byte than any disk made up to about 5 years ago. > will make more money than BG thought exists. Not if BG has anything to say in it. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 06:00:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16940 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au (mail@labs.usn.blaze.net.au [203.17.53.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16934 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 06:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from labs.usn.blaze.net.au [127.0.0.1] (davidn) by labs.usn.blaze.net.au with esmtp (Exim 1.61 #1) id 0x7gwk-0003xt-00 (Debian); Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:00:10 +1000 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/release/sysinstall disks.c In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Sep 1997 11:13:31 +0200." <19970907111331.CE59835@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P#N+Ec~Z&@;'LL!;3?y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 00:00:09 +1100 From: David Nugent Message-Id: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [from committers] > Hehe. :-) I have been urged by the core-team to add such a message > back when i proposed DD mode. ;-) Of course, it never killed me, but > i know about the dangers... The worst is that some Award BIOS doesn't > accept such a disk as a valid disk at all. :-(( Just in case someone is collecting this information ... OS/2's FDISK command (which I use on my first two disks since I use its excellent boot manager) won't touch a DD's partition table at all. You can't remove the "partitions" in it (it says it does, but it doesn't), can't create new ones, can't do a damn thing. If a DD's disk is in the system and it sees it, it also complains "no primary partition" on exiting regardless of not having touched that disk, but this is just a benign warning. I consider not being able to edit the "paritition table" a feature. :-) OTOH, DOS fdisk will quite happily work with it, so at least it can rewrite the table so that the OS/2 fdisk will then work. This is the only way to you can reuse a previously dd'ed disk for OS/2 (other than a low level format or "dd if=/dev/zero" directly over the boot blocks of course). Regards, David From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 06:21:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17745 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 06:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA17740 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 06:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA18411 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:20:55 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA07889; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:15:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970907151548.GB33300@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:15:48 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/release/sysinstall disks.c References: <19970907111331.CE59835@uriah.heep.sax.de> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from David Nugent on Sep 8, 1997 00:00:09 +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As David Nugent wrote: (OS/2's fdisk) > I consider not being able to edit the "paritition table" a feature. :-) Well, i think Winlose .95 is the worst sucker here. IIRC, it deletes the BSD bootstrap without a whisper, and without asking or telling you. I'm currently writing up a FAQ entry, and will put a general warning there about the things you should be aware of with a DD disk. I think OS/2 marks the one end, Win.95 the other (worst) end. > OTOH, DOS fdisk will quite happily work with it, so at least it can > rewrite the table so that the OS/2 fdisk will then work. This is > the only way to you can reuse a previously dd'ed disk for OS/2 (other > than a low level format or "dd if=/dev/zero" directly over the boot > blocks of course). fdisk /mbr doesn't work? I thought it would. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 16:01:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16047 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pandora.hh.kew.com (root@kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16023; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonata (sonata.hh.kew.com [192.195.203.135]) by pandora.hh.kew.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25514; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34133244.7F7AF767@kew.com> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 19:01:24 -0400 From: Drew Derbyshire Organization: Kendra Electronic Wonderworks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en]C-MOENE (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , support@kew.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: spam and the FreeBSD mailing lists X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > > Actually I was told that numerous government agencies have networks of > machines that don't reverse out. > > > The TCP/IP protocol implicitly requires public IP address to be properly > > registered to be routed (otherwise, you don't get your ACK's back!), > > there is no sin in requiring public e-mail addresses registered as well. > > No, I didn't mean the IP was in DNS, I mean the network itself had to be registered with the 'Net routers for the packets to be ACK'ed. IMHO, SMTP should refuse connections from sites that don't reverse out, but that's a different issue. (I suspect this should be moved to -chat ..., follow-ups will go there) -ahd- -- Internet: ahd@kew.com Voice: 617-279-9810 "MS-DOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development." - dmeggins@aix1.uottawa.ca From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 21:48:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04248 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04243 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7818 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Sep 1997 04:48:57 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19970907171110.27847@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 21:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Cc: FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Greg Lehey; On 07-Sep-97 you wrote: ... > Well, I can't remember the performance of the mid-70s, but my > recollection of the performance in the early 80s on, say, a 3330 clone > was that these drives had 30 sectors (2 spares) per track, and they > ran at 3600 rpm. Since they weren't buffered, that gives a maximum > data transfer to the channel of about 860 kB/s. Average positioning > was round the 30 to 35 ms mark. Check out Priam 14" 60MB drives, check Floppy drives from the early 80's. They were all much faster than that. I clearly remember my Heathkit H8 seeking at 5-7ms on a 5.25" floppy. > At the time, I was working for Tandem. We noticed a puzzling > behaviour: our new flagship model TXP, whose CPU was about 100% faster > than the previous NonStop II, read data off these disks at almost > exactly double the speed of the NonStop II. Why? We finally figured > out that we were reading 4 kB blocks (the maximum our disk controllers > would allow), doing some processing, and then issuing the next read. > Unfortunately, on the NonStop II this took such a long time that the > head had passed the next block before it issued the read. In other > words, the "high performance" TXP managed to read a 4 kB block every > revolution, and the NonStop II needed two revolutions per 4 kB block. This is called inteleave factor. The semantics for 4.2bsd mkfs supported that feature. My CPM 1.1 IMSAI BIOS supported that on a floppy drive. We did, on a Z-80 machine of my design 256KB/sec from a single hard disk. Vax-780 did over 500KB/Sec in that time frame. We always knew Tandem was turtle slow. I finally have a witness to why :-) On the original Tahoe, we complained about 780KB/Sec and striped it to get more data out of it. ... > Again, I can't agree in the slightest. I *do* have the technical doc > for a 2311 drive floating around somewhere in the shed, and they were > unbelievably primitive. I may not remember some of the old numbers, but it is a rather well established fact that the difference in performance between CPU and external storage grows rapidly. My point was to exemplify it and encourage the young (at heart) and energetic to think in new ways. ... > Sounds like a 1 GB RAM to me. Still cheaper per byte than any disk > made up to about 5 years ago. Not necessarily so. What you refer to is DRAM, which loses its mind if not read in 2ms. Not exactly long term storage. ``Permanent'' storage is stil important. Remember that RAM was born as a compensator to off-line storage slowness. Originally there was a store and there were registers. RAM really is a non-entity from architectual point of view. It is a headache, that is true. The C language recognizes it as a viable entity, this is also true. But to the end-product functionality it is really non-entity. You always pass data through it, data is only useful in either storage or display. And these are really registers. > > will make more money than BG thought exists. > > Not if BG has anything to say in it. He is exactly where IBM was before him. To the Tee. Now see what happened to them. --- Sincerely Yours, (Sent on 07-Sep-97, 21:31:17 by XF-Mail) Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.643.5559, Emergency: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 22:00:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05753 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05747 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA23251; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:00:03 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA26293; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:29:47 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970908142946.45138@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:29:46 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Simon Shapiro Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970907171110.27847@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Sun, Sep 07, 1997 at 09:48:56PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Sep 07, 1997 at 09:48:56PM -0700, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Hi Greg Lehey; On 07-Sep-97 you wrote: > > ... > >> Well, I can't remember the performance of the mid-70s, but my >> recollection of the performance in the early 80s on, say, a 3330 clone >> was that these drives had 30 sectors (2 spares) per track, and they >> ran at 3600 rpm. Since they weren't buffered, that gives a maximum >> data transfer to the channel of about 860 kB/s. Average positioning >> was round the 30 to 35 ms mark. > > Check out Priam 14" 60MB drives, I'd guess they'd be pretty close to the others. > check Floppy drives from the early 80's. They were all much faster > than that. I clearly remember my Heathkit H8 seeking at 5-7ms on a > 5.25" floppy. That's the track to track time. My Siemens 8" jobs even did 3 ms. But those were stepper motors, and a 77 track seek took 230 ms. >> At the time, I was working for Tandem. We noticed a puzzling >> behaviour: our new flagship model TXP, whose CPU was about 100% faster >> than the previous NonStop II, read data off these disks at almost >> exactly double the speed of the NonStop II. Why? We finally figured >> out that we were reading 4 kB blocks (the maximum our disk controllers >> would allow), doing some processing, and then issuing the next read. >> Unfortunately, on the NonStop II this took such a long time that the >> head had passed the next block before it issued the read. In other >> words, the "high performance" TXP managed to read a 4 kB block every >> revolution, and the NonStop II needed two revolutions per 4 kB block. > > This is called inteleave factor. Interleaving might have improved the performance of the NonStop II, but it would have worsened the performance for the TXP. > The semantics for 4.2bsd mkfs supported that feature. My CPM 1.1 > IMSAI BIOS supported that on a floppy drive. CP/M's interleaving was broken. He did it by reading non-sequential sector numbers rather than laying them out as the controller could handle them. > We did, on a Z-80 machine of my design 256KB/sec from a single hard > disk. Vax-780 did over 500KB/Sec in that time frame. That's a whole lot slower than the 3330 I was talking about. But they're burst rates. Look at the old (pre-FFS) UNIX file system and check how fast *that* was. > We always knew Tandem was turtle slow. I finally have a witness to > why No, I didn't say why. I just confirmed your prejudices :-) > On the original Tahoe, we complained about 780KB/Sec and striped it to > get more data out of it. > > ... > >> Again, I can't agree in the slightest. I *do* have the technical doc >> for a 2311 drive floating around somewhere in the shed, and they were >> unbelievably primitive. > > I may not remember some of the old numbers, but it is a rather well > established fact that the difference in performance between CPU and > external storage grows rapidly. My point was to exemplify it and > encourage the young (at heart) and energetic to think in new ways. > > ... > >> Sounds like a 1 GB RAM to me. Still cheaper per byte than any disk >> made up to about 5 years ago. > > Not necessarily so. What you refer to is DRAM, which loses its mind > if not read in 2ms. So refresh it. > Not exactly long term storage. ``Permanent'' storage is stil > important. Remember that RAM was born as a compensator to off-line > storage slowness. Well, no, RAM was born as a cheaper alternative to core. So, for that matter, were disks and drums. > Originally there was a store and there were registers. Originally there was no store. > RAM really is a non-entity from architectual point of view. Huh? > It is a headache, that is true. The C language recognizes it as a > viable entity, this is also true. But to the end-product > functionality it is really non-entity. You can use this same argument about computers in general. I don't care what's in that black box, I just want my data from the Web. > You always pass data through it, data is only useful in either > storage or display. And these are really registers. So is RAM. >>> will make more money than BG thought exists. >> >> Not if BG has anything to say in it. > > He is exactly where IBM was before him. To the Tee. Now see what > happened to them. Agreed, but that's not relevant to the argument. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 22:18:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06992 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06983 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA24216 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:48:27 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au ([127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00675; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:58:48 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709080058.KAA00675@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Terry Lambert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:44:06 GMT." <199709071444.HAA08816@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 10:58:22 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Why is it necessary to bring this up over and over again. > > Because the EIDE folks are bound and determined to pound a stake > into the heart of the SCSI "vampire" evry time they see it, whether > it's spotted in a coffin somewhere, or sitting on the French Riveria > under a beach umbrella sipping Pina Colada's. > > 8-) 8-). > > (For the logic-impaired, if it's on the beach in daylight, it's not > a vampire) You are disregarding Vampisol. > Terry Lambert (And if you can tell me the title of the movie, I will be infernally in your debt.) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 22:27:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07499 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07491 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA24314 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:57:28 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au ([127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00598; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:43:03 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709080043.KAA00598@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Simon Shapiro , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Sep 1997 17:11:10 +0930." <19970907171110.27847@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 10:42:52 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > If you compare a 14" disk pack from the mid-seventies (SMDE) to a disk > > drive of today, you see that capacity climbed nicely (about 30x), > > performance has barely moved (I am NOT talking about 5MB Shugart 5.25"!), > > being that a good SMDE drive could do about 5MB/sec or even better, while > > CPU's jumped almost 300x! > > Well, I can't remember the performance of the mid-70s, but my > recollection of the performance in the early 80s on, say, a 3330 clone > was that these drives had 30 sectors (2 spares) per track, and they > ran at 3600 rpm. Since they weren't buffered, that gives a maximum > data transfer to the channel of about 860 kB/s. Average positioning > was round the 30 to 35 ms mark. You're talking IBM DASD here? I'll have to go beat up on the old man for more data here, but seeing as he bought several of most of that family over time (starting in about 1972) I would hope he could remember. 8) However, Simon is close; the ESMD spec allows for a data clock of 25MHz (the data separator is on the disk, not the controller, IIRC). The later ESMD disks were pretty hot performance-wise (eg. the Fujitsu Super Eagle and its successorss), the biggest limitation with those disks was the amount of power on the controller. Eg. the Emulex QD-32 used a single 8031. Later controllers (eg. Xylogics 451, Interphase 4xxx) had more CPU and more smarts, but even then they had sophisticated scatter-gather and request sorting algorithms. ... > This may sound funny until you look at the data transfer rates > involved. On the TXP, it was 240 kB per second, on the NonStop II it > was 120. Raw disk rate. Digital's SDI talking to an RA-81 was good for about 200K/sec; ESMD was much faster. > Sounds like a 1 GB RAM to me. Still cheaper per byte than any disk > made up to about 5 years ago. Yup. And if someone can work out how to deal with the power dissipation, a slab of pseudo-static RAM the size of a 3.5" drive will probably be cost-comparable inside the next 5-10 years. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 22:29:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07675 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07665 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA25780; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:28:39 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id OAA26531; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:58:37 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970908145837.07934@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:58:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: Simon Shapiro , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970907171110.27847@lemis.com> <199709080043.KAA00598@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709080043.KAA00598@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 10:42:52AM +1000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 10:42:52AM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: >>> If you compare a 14" disk pack from the mid-seventies (SMDE) to a disk >>> drive of today, you see that capacity climbed nicely (about 30x), >>> performance has barely moved (I am NOT talking about 5MB Shugart 5.25"!), >>> being that a good SMDE drive could do about 5MB/sec or even better, while >>> CPU's jumped almost 300x! >> >> Well, I can't remember the performance of the mid-70s, but my >> recollection of the performance in the early 80s on, say, a 3330 clone >> was that these drives had 30 sectors (2 spares) per track, and they >> ran at 3600 rpm. Since they weren't buffered, that gives a maximum >> data transfer to the channel of about 860 kB/s. Average positioning >> was round the 30 to 35 ms mark. > > You're talking IBM DASD here? I'll have to go beat up on the old man > for more data here, but seeing as he bought several of most of that > family over time (starting in about 1972) I would hope he could > remember. 8) > > However, Simon is close; the ESMD spec allows for a data clock of 25MHz > (the data separator is on the disk, not the controller, IIRC). Depends on the drive. > The later ESMD disks were pretty hot performance-wise (eg. the > Fujitsu Super Eagle and its successorss), Sure, but they weren't exactly the kind of drive built in the mid-70s. The 3330 was the "standard" drive, and it had 30 sectors per track, 3600 rpm. How many kB/s do you get out of that? >> This may sound funny until you look at the data transfer rates >> involved. On the TXP, it was 240 kB per second, on the NonStop II it >> was 120. Raw disk rate. > > Digital's SDI talking to an RA-81 was good for about 200K/sec; ESMD was > much faster. > >> Sounds like a 1 GB RAM to me. Still cheaper per byte than any disk >> made up to about 5 years ago. > > Yup. And if someone can work out how to deal with the power > dissipation, a slab of pseudo-static RAM the size of a 3.5" drive will > probably be cost-comparable inside the next 5-10 years. Assuming the disk drive people don't continue to improve their devices. Round about the time of the last anecdote (early 80s), the head of Tandem's HPRC said something to the effect that we needn't worry too much about disks, because they would die out in the next 10 years, considering the way the price of RAM was dropping. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 22:32:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07877 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust72.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07871 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id BAA05870; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970908013227.32344@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:32:27 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Simon Shapiro Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970907171110.27847@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Sun, Sep 07, 1997 at 09:48:56PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Sep 07, 1997 at 09:48:56PM -0700, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Hi Greg Lehey; On 07-Sep-97 you wrote: > > .... > > > Well, I can't remember the performance of the mid-70s, but my > > recollection of the performance in the early 80s on, say, a 3330 clone > > was that these drives had 30 sectors (2 spares) per track, and they > > ran at 3600 rpm. Since they weren't buffered, that gives a maximum > > data transfer to the channel of about 860 kB/s. Average positioning > > was round the 30 to 35 ms mark. > > Check out Priam 14" 60MB drives, check Floppy drives from the early 80's. > They were all much faster than that. I clearly remember my Heathkit H8 > seeking at 5-7ms on a 5.25" floppy. Well, Greg mentioned *average* seek...what the floppy-drive manuals list is track-to-track seek. The only drives I remember having anything close to a 30 ms track-to-track were the old stepper-motor PC hard drives of the early 80s, and they were usually 15-20 ms. (They also had 65-85 ms average seek times...yuck.) Also, most floppies still have a track-to-track seek of 5-7 ms...they havent changed much in design since the 80s. For reference, most modern drives have average seek times of around 10ms, and track-to-track seek times of 800us-2ms. PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a question that's been bugging me for some time now... -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 22:49:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08939 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08934 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA28006; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:48:24 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id PAA26589; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:18:23 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970908151823.35891@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:18:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: Simon Shapiro , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970908145837.07934@lemis.com> <199709080505.PAA01452@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709080505.PAA01452@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:05:39PM +1000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:05:39PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: >>> >>> However, Simon is close; the ESMD spec allows for a data clock of 25MHz >>> (the data separator is on the disk, not the controller, IIRC). >> >> Depends on the drive. > > What "depends" on the drive? The location of the data separator. Thinking about it, though, I'm not sure I remember correctly. I was pretty sure we only had one read data and one write data line, but I could have been wrong. Those cables were about .75" thick. > The ESMD spec lays out the maximum clock rate for the data, and the > separator has to be on the drive if you're going to claim to be > ESMD. Well, I'm not even sure if the 3330 is ESMD. We called it SMD (Storage Module Drive). What does the E mean? Extended? When did it come out? >>> The later ESMD disks were pretty hot performance-wise (eg. the >>> Fujitsu Super Eagle and its successorss), >> >> Sure, but they weren't exactly the kind of drive built in the >> mid-70s. The 3330 was the "standard" drive, and it had 30 sectors per >> track, 3600 rpm. How many kB/s do you get out of that? > > How many heads are you reading in parallel? One. > I've had blood out of similar units on my hands (and blood out of my > hands on similar units 8) and I get the distinct impression that > multiple-head read activity was the norm. They may have been in the environment you're talking about. They weren't at Tandem, and I'd guess that any multi-head stuff didn't come until the mid-80s. >>> Yup. And if someone can work out how to deal with the power >>> dissipation, a slab of pseudo-static RAM the size of a 3.5" drive will >>> probably be cost-comparable inside the next 5-10 years. >> >> Assuming the disk drive people don't continue to improve their >> devices. Round about the time of the last anecdote (early 80s), the >> head of Tandem's HPRC said something to the effect that we needn't >> worry too much about disks, because they would die out in the next 10 >> years, considering the way the price of RAM was dropping. > > Sure. I think your earlier point about the basic mechanical > limitations is quite valid though; there's a basic restriction inherent > in having to fling the head assembly around. Still... Sure. In fact, I'm astounded how much disk drives have improved in the last 15 years. In 1982, Tandem introduced a 540 MB CDC SMD disk drive, the disk drive for gluttons. It was a heap of shit. It weighed a ton, was a real pig to program (it went offline for over 30 seconds to perform its power on self test, and the system had to decide whether it was meditating or dead), and it wasn't overly reliable. We pardoned it because of its high capacity. It still had the same transfer rates and positioning times that I mentioned above, probably because of its 14" construction (the last of its kind. After that, we went to little 8" Fujitsus). Try and find a new production disk drive *anywhere* with only 540 MB, 30 ms positioning, 800 kB/sec transfer rate nowadays. By comparison, even the shittiest IDE drives are a dream. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 22:51:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09083 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09078 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24419 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:21:00 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01452; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:05:40 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709080505.PAA01452@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , Simon Shapiro , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 14:58:37 +0930." <19970908145837.07934@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 15:05:39 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > However, Simon is close; the ESMD spec allows for a data clock of 25MHz > > (the data separator is on the disk, not the controller, IIRC). > > Depends on the drive. What "depends" on the drive? The ESMD spec lays out the maximum clock rate for the data, and the separator has to be on the drive if you're going to claim to be ESMD. > > The later ESMD disks were pretty hot performance-wise (eg. the > > Fujitsu Super Eagle and its successorss), > > Sure, but they weren't exactly the kind of drive built in the > mid-70s. The 3330 was the "standard" drive, and it had 30 sectors per > track, 3600 rpm. How many kB/s do you get out of that? How many heads are you reading in parallel? I've had blood out of similar units on my hands (and blood out of my hands on similar units 8) and I get the distinct impression that multiple-head read activity was the norm. > > Yup. And if someone can work out how to deal with the power > > dissipation, a slab of pseudo-static RAM the size of a 3.5" drive will > > probably be cost-comparable inside the next 5-10 years. > > Assuming the disk drive people don't continue to improve their > devices. Round about the time of the last anecdote (early 80s), the > head of Tandem's HPRC said something to the effect that we needn't > worry too much about disks, because they would die out in the next 10 > years, considering the way the price of RAM was dropping. Sure. I think your earlier point about the basic mechanical limitations is quite valid though; there's a basic restriction inherent in having to fling the head assembly around. Still... mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 23:27:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11357 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11308 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA24579 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:56:23 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01604; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:46:36 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709080546.PAA01604@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hcremean@vt.edu cc: Simon Shapiro , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 01:32:27 -0400." <19970908013227.32344@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 15:46:35 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a > question that's been bugging me for some time now... Linear or rotary actuator? The linear VC actuator probably predates the use of stepper motors; certainly some of the more impressive magnets in my collection started their lives in disk units. High-precision stepper motor controls are more complex than the linear displacement sensor approach that you use with a linear VC actuator too; it's the mechanicals and the space that made steppers cheaper, AFAIK. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 23:43:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12508 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12503 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24655 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:13:23 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01679; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:00:35 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709080600.QAA01679@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , Simon Shapiro , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 15:18:23 +0930." <19970908151823.35891@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 16:00:34 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >>> However, Simon is close; the ESMD spec allows for a data clock of 25MHz > >>> (the data separator is on the disk, not the controller, IIRC). > >> > >> Depends on the drive. > > > > What "depends" on the drive? > > The location of the data separator. Thinking about it, though, I'm > not sure I remember correctly. I was pretty sure we only had one read > data and one write data line, but I could have been wrong. Those > cables were about .75" thick. No, you're correct. The ESMD interface looks a lot like the ESDI interface (no surprises there, really); there's only one data line in each direction, and the separator is on the drive. > > The ESMD spec lays out the maximum clock rate for the data, and the > > separator has to be on the drive if you're going to claim to be > > ESMD. > > Well, I'm not even sure if the 3330 is ESMD. We called it SMD > (Storage Module Drive). What does the E mean? Extended? When did it > come out? IIRC, SMD maxed out at 10 or 15MHz. ESMD defined some more commands and supported increased data rates; I recall both 20 and 25MHz drives. > > I've had blood out of similar units on my hands (and blood out of my > > hands on similar units 8) and I get the distinct impression that > > multiple-head read activity was the norm. > > They may have been in the environment you're talking about. They > weren't at Tandem, and I'd guess that any multi-head stuff didn't come > until the mid-80s. Hmm. I confess that units prior to the late 70's would have been destroyed before I was old enough to understand their workings well, let alone remember them. > > Sure. I think your earlier point about the basic mechanical > > limitations is quite valid though; there's a basic restriction inherent > > in having to fling the head assembly around. Still... > > Sure. In fact, I'm astounded how much disk drives have improved in > the last 15 years. In 1982, Tandem introduced a 540 MB CDC SMD disk > drive, the disk drive for gluttons. It was a heap of shit. It Heh. I think this was the ancestor to the 515MB units that I remember so fondly. Did it make "whale noises" as part of its self-test? > that, we went to little 8" Fujitsus). Try and find a new production > disk drive *anywhere* with only 540 MB, 30 ms positioning, 800 kB/sec > transfer rate nowadays. By comparison, even the shittiest IDE drives > are a dream. Sounds like a Zip drive. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 7 23:44:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12631 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust72.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12625 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id CAA06105; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970908024325.42427@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:43:25 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970908013227.32344@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <199709080546.PAA01604@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <199709080546.PAA01604@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a > > question that's been bugging me for some time now... > > Linear or rotary actuator? The linear VC actuator probably predates > the use of stepper motors; certainly some of the more impressive > magnets in my collection started their lives in disk units. Makes sense...I had an old (1985) Seagate ST-4026 that used linear seek, and the magnets in it were HUGE. There's also a Hitachi DK511-8 here, of about the same vintage, that uses rotary voice-coil. > High-precision stepper motor controls are more complex than the linear > displacement sensor approach that you use with a linear VC actuator too; > it's the mechanicals and the space that made steppers cheaper, AFAIK. Yep...most stepper-motor drives I've seen used rack-and-pinion and sector-and-pinion linkages, joined together with bands or gears--about the same as a floppy drive. How they got those things to track accurately is beyond me, though. Also, you should see the hoops Seagate jumped through to make the ST-251 do 820 cylinders AND auto-park...thing actually used a 5-phase stepper! It also had a dedicated sequencer chip to run the stepper off the spindle's back-EMF to park the heads. There's even weirder auto-park systems around; I've seen one that actually pulled the heads away from the disks. But I digress... :) -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:01:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13729 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13721 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24710 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:31:38 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01795; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:28:41 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709080628.QAA01795@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hcremean@vt.edu cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 02:43:25 -0400." <19970908024325.42427@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 16:28:40 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a > > > question that's been bugging me for some time now... > > > > Linear or rotary actuator? The linear VC actuator probably predates > > the use of stepper motors; certainly some of the more impressive > > magnets in my collection started their lives in disk units. > > Makes sense...I had an old (1985) Seagate ST-4026 that used linear seek, and > the magnets in it were HUGE. There's also a Hitachi DK511-8 here, of about > the same vintage, that uses rotary voice-coil. I was talking pre-1980 stuff; you would have to find a real fossil to tell you what they were using before that. 8) > > High-precision stepper motor controls are more complex than the linear > > displacement sensor approach that you use with a linear VC actuator too; > > it's the mechanicals and the space that made steppers cheaper, AFAIK. > > Yep...most stepper-motor drives I've seen used rack-and-pinion and > sector-and-pinion linkages, joined together with bands or gears--about the > same as a floppy drive. How they got those things to track accurately is > beyond me, though. That's what guardbands are for; you use a bias current to pull the stepper slightly off centre until you find one band, then push it the other way to find the other. Center between the two is the middle of the track. 8) > Also, you should see the hoops Seagate jumped through to > make the ST-251 do 820 cylinders AND auto-park...thing actually used a > 5-phase stepper! It also had a dedicated sequencer chip to run the stepper > off the spindle's back-EMF to park the heads. There's even weirder auto-park > systems around; I've seen one that actually pulled the heads away from the > disks. But I digress... :) Lots of disks use the spindle to power the drive in spindown; listen to any of the 5.25 CDC/Imprimis/Seagate disks winding down; as the power finally drops off the spindle brake comes on. I presume they did this to minimise the wear on the brake pad. Head retraction is pretty common too; naturally on removables it's mandatory 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:21:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA14701 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14696 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA06446; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:19:00 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id QAA27061; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:48:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970908164852.40911@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:48:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: hcremean@vt.edu, Simon Shapiro , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970908013227.32344@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <199709080546.PAA01604@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709080546.PAA01604@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: >> >> PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a >> question that's been bugging me for some time now... > > Linear or rotary actuator? I'd always equated "voice coil" with linear actuators. I'd guess the early 70s. We installed the first UNIVAC 8440s in 1973. I think they were voice coil. They looked like 3330 copies. > The linear VC actuator probably predates the use of stepper motors; I'd think so. The stepper motors wouldn't have got into hard drives until about the ST-506. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:29:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15253 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust72.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15247 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id DAA06240; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970908032832.44490@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:28:32 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970908024325.42427@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <199709080628.QAA01795@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <199709080628.QAA01795@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 04:28:40PM +1000 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > > Makes sense...I had an old (1985) Seagate ST-4026 that used linear seek, and > > the magnets in it were HUGE. There's also a Hitachi DK511-8 here, of about > > the same vintage, that uses rotary voice-coil. > > I was talking pre-1980 stuff; you would have to find a real fossil to > tell you what they were using before that. 8) Heh...fwiw, the oldest HD I've ever seen was from 1982, a stepper-based IMI. > > > > Yep...most stepper-motor drives I've seen used rack-and-pinion and > > sector-and-pinion linkages, joined together with bands or gears--about the > > same as a floppy drive. How they got those things to track accurately is > > beyond me, though. > > That's what guardbands are for; you use a bias current to pull the > stepper slightly off centre until you find one band, then push it the > other way to find the other. Center between the two is the middle of > the track. 8) Hmmm...I didn't know you could do that with a stepper motor, but then I'm no stepper motor expert :) > Lots of disks use the spindle to power the drive in spindown; listen to > any of the 5.25 CDC/Imprimis/Seagate disks winding down; as the power > finally drops off the spindle brake comes on. I presume they did this > to minimise the wear on the brake pad. Yup...we have three of those old-style CDCs here, and they all do that. They don't have brake pads though, from what I've seen; it looks like they just short the phases together, making an eddy-current brake. The click you hear when the brake engages is a relay on the motor-drive board, and I would imagine the braking system has something to do with the drive transistors. They may well have delayed it to keep the current from frying something, especially in the full-height drives. > Head retraction is pretty common too; naturally on removables it's > mandatory 8) Indeed; the first drive I saw that did that was a 44MB SyQuest (which is sitting in my closet, awaiting a decent SCSI card...). -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:37:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15643 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15634 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA07428; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:36:49 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA27193; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:06:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970908170637.25473@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:06:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970908024325.42427@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <199709080628.QAA01795@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709080628.QAA01795@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 04:28:40PM +1000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 04:28:40PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a >>>> question that's been bugging me for some time now... >>> >>> Linear or rotary actuator? The linear VC actuator probably predates >>> the use of stepper motors; certainly some of the more impressive >>> magnets in my collection started their lives in disk units. >> >> Makes sense...I had an old (1985) Seagate ST-4026 that used linear seek, and >> the magnets in it were HUGE. There's also a Hitachi DK511-8 here, of about >> the same vintage, that uses rotary voice-coil. > > I was talking pre-1980 stuff; you would have to find a real fossil to > tell you what they were using before that. 8) Thanks. The 2311 used hydraulics. Didn't I offer you the manual? Anyway, it's somewhere in the shed. 70ms average positioning IIRC. The typical start to a bad day was to come in and find a pool of oil under one of your disk drives. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:41:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15800 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust72.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15794 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id DAA06286; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970908034036.07341@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:40:36 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970908013227.32344@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <199709080546.PAA01604@word.smith.net.au> <19970908164852.40911@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <19970908164852.40911@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 04:48:52PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 04:48:52PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > The linear VC actuator probably predates the use of stepper motors; > > I'd think so. The stepper motors wouldn't have got into hard drives > until about the ST-506. Seagate was founded in 1979, so this puppy came out that year or in 1980. And yes, I kinda figured the ST-506 had something to do with this, seeing that Alan Shugart practically invented[1] the floppy (and that practically all floppy drives use steppers)... [1] Shugart was on the team that invented the 8" floppy at IBM, IIRC... -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:49:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16066 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16058 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA24981 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:19:01 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01934; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:11:45 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709080711.RAA01934@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 17:06:37 +0930." <19970908170637.25473@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 17:11:44 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I was talking pre-1980 stuff; you would have to find a real fossil to > > tell you what they were using before that. 8) > > Thanks. The 2311 used hydraulics. Didn't I offer you the manual? > Anyway, it's somewhere in the shed. 70ms average positioning IIRC. > > The typical start to a bad day was to come in and find a pool of oil > under one of your disk drives. What did they drive the hydraulics with, though? A constant pressure compressor and what sort of solenoids? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:50:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16144 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16124 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA08200; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:49:16 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id RAA28134; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:19:12 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970908171912.16593@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:19:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970908170637.25473@lemis.com> <199709080711.RAA01934@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709080711.RAA01934@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 05:11:44PM +1000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 05:11:44PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: >>> I was talking pre-1980 stuff; you would have to find a real fossil to >>> tell you what they were using before that. 8) >> >> Thanks. The 2311 used hydraulics. Didn't I offer you the manual? >> Anyway, it's somewhere in the shed. 70ms average positioning IIRC. >> >> The typical start to a bad day was to come in and find a pool of oil >> under one of your disk drives. > > What did they drive the hydraulics with, though? A constant pressure > compressor and what sort of solenoids? RTFM. I've never taken one apart. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 00:56:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16371 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust72.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16348; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id DAA06361; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970908035612.36939@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 03:56:12 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Josef Karthauser Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Divert sockets.. Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <1.5.4.32.19970907223328.008be880@mail.mindspring.com> <199709080052.KAA00380@lofty.ist.flinders.edu.au> <19970908081913.36000@pavilion.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <19970908081913.36000@pavilion.net>; from Josef Karthauser on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 08:19:13AM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [crossposted to -chat] On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 08:19:13AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: > On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 10:22:23AM +0930, Daniel J. O'Connor wrote: > > > to get messages to and from the kernel? > > Yeah, the Amiga had the 'advantage' of having no memory protection(at > > all), so you could just pass pointers around =) > > That's not entirely true. Is it? The 4000 had memory protection and the > same O/S. (a500 ran 68000, a4000 ran 68030/40). Well, the 68000 had user and supervisor modes, but no page-level protection like the 030 and above (and the 68020 with the 68851 MMU)--and most other processors with demand paging--do. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 02:34:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA20472 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20461 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA24709; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:33:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Josef Karthauser cc: "Daniel J. O'Connor" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Divert sockets.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 08:19:13 BST." <19970908081913.36000@pavilion.net> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 02:33:56 -0700 Message-ID: <24706.873711236@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Redirected mercifully to -chat; watch those mailing lists, folks! This is most definitely not -hackers fodder!] > On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 10:22:23AM +0930, Daniel J. O'Connor wrote: > > > to get messages to and from the kernel? > > Yeah, the Amiga had the 'advantage' of having no memory protection(at > > all), so you could just pass pointers around =) > > That's not entirely true. Is it? The 4000 had memory protection and the > same O/S. (a500 ran 68000, a4000 ran 68030/40). It didn't matter - the way the AmigaDOS service calling conventions were designed, you needed to be able to share memory trivially (and unprotectedly) with the OS so ye old Guru Meditation was still a frequent visitor even with a 68040 chip inside. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 02:38:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA20593 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from florence.pavilion.net (florence.pavilion.net [194.242.128.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20586 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 02:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from joe@localhost) by florence.pavilion.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18087; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:36:45 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19970908103645.19005@pavilion.net> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:36:45 +0100 From: Josef Karthauser To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Daniel J. O'Connor" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Divert sockets.. References: <19970908081913.36000@pavilion.net> <24706.873711236@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <24706.873711236@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:33:56AM -0700 X-NCC-RegID: uk.pavilion Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:33:56AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > That's not entirely true. Is it? The 4000 had memory protection and the > > same O/S. (a500 ran 68000, a4000 ran 68030/40). > > It didn't matter - the way the AmigaDOS service calling conventions > were designed, you needed to be able to share memory trivially (and > unprotectedly) with the OS so ye old Guru Meditation was still a > frequent visitor even with a 68040 chip inside. > > Jordan Om to the Guru Meditation. I'd forgotton all about that ;) [Has anyone got an action replay for freebsd ;)] Joe -- Josef Karthauser Technical Manager Email: joe@pavilion.net Pavilion Internet plc. [Tel: +44 1273 607072 Fax: +44 1273 607073] From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 05:41:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28085 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pandora.hh.kew.com (root@kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.53.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28047; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonata (sonata.hh.kew.com [192.195.203.135]) by pandora.hh.kew.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA28947; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3413F242.BDBA1225@kew.com> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 08:40:34 -0400 From: Drew Derbyshire Organization: Kendra Electronic Wonderworks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en]C-MOENE (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com" CC: Greg Lehey , Ollivier Robert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Build quality for the mass market (was: lousy disk perf. under cpu load) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709080623.XAA10617@MindBender.serv.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As our topic drifts off to sea, moving this to -CHAT (I hope) Michael L. VanLoon -- HeadCandy.com wrote: > My final note is that over the last four years or so, I have had more > (E)IDE drives fail (3) than SCSI drives (1) in my own systems. And I > have owned more SCSI drives (11) than (E)IDE drives (5). Holding the > drives in my hand, I can tell the difference in build quality. My > experience is that there truly is a difference in the quality of > components that go into each kind of drive. If they ever build SCSI for the mass market, the quality would drop as well. The example (I can't say proof) is ATAPI CD-ROM drives. I've had a NEC Multispin (2x) external SCSI for four years, it's still doing service downstairs on one of my servers. After they drop the big one, the only things to survive will be the cockroaches and that drive. I don't expect the NEC IDE CD-ROM drive shipped as part of my NEC system to survive, I've already lost three off a sister system in just over a year. Like Michael, I can just look and heft the drives and see the differences. One can even see the difference between cheap $99 2x internal drives of 1995 vintage and the 6x drives of today -- junk, all of newer ones, as builders compete on price. So it's not the interface which makes EIDE drives fail, it's quantity pricing driving down quality. -ahd- -- Internet: ahd@kew.com Voice: 617-279-9810 How do you make Windows faster? Throw it harder! From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 05:45:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28278 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28273 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id OAA29626; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:45:42 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:45:42 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199709081245.OAA29626@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: joe@pavilion.net, doconnor@ist.flinders.edu.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Mon, 08 Sep 1997 02:33:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Divert sockets.. References: <19970908081913.36000@pavilion.net> <24706.873711236@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Josef Karthauser ] > > That's not entirely true. Is it? The 4000 had memory protection and the > > same O/S. (a500 ran 68000, a4000 ran 68030/40). [Jordan K. Hubbard] > It didn't matter - the way the AmigaDOS service calling conventions > were designed, you needed to be able to share memory trivially (and > unprotectedly) with the OS so ye old Guru Meditation was still a > frequent visitor even with a 68040 chip inside. This is actually not quite correct. AmigaOS was partially designed to allow a fairly high level of memory protection, but unfortunately some parts allocated by user programs would still have to be publicly available. And nobody bothered to specify which parts that was. A real pity; most of the Amiga architecture was beautiful. (LOTS of it was better than Unix, IMHO) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 10:31:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14084 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14077; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bogus.mindspring.com (user-37kbojt.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.226.125]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA27305; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970908173037.00e11ea0@mail.mindspring.com> X-Sender: kpneal@mail.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 13:30:37 -0400 To: hcremean@vt.edu From: "Kevin P. Neal" Subject: Re: Divert sockets.. Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk At 03:56 AM 9/8/97 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >[crossposted to -chat] > >On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 08:19:13AM +0100, Josef Karthauser wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 10:22:23AM +0930, Daniel J. O'Connor wrote: >> > > to get messages to and from the kernel? >> > Yeah, the Amiga had the 'advantage' of having no memory protection(at >> > all), so you could just pass pointers around =) >> >> That's not entirely true. Is it? The 4000 had memory protection and the >> same O/S. (a500 ran 68000, a4000 ran 68030/40). > >Well, the 68000 had user and supervisor modes, but no page-level protection >like the 030 and above (and the 68020 with the 68851 MMU)--and most other >processors with demand paging--do. Exactly correct. The '020+MMU and up machines were able to do memory protection, but it was never built into the Amiga OS. -- XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci. - House of Retrocomputing XCOMM mailto:kpneal@pobox.com - http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ XCOMM kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates: XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!" From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 13:36:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02245 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ix.netcom.com (ACCS-AS23-DP09.SNFC.grid.net [206.80.181.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02236 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ix.netcom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ix.netcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02334 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:36:07 GMT Message-Id: <199709081336.NAA02334@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ASUS P55T2P4 info.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 13:36:06 +0000 From: "K.Ridge" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello Everyone, I'm posting this to -chat since it's not really FBSD oriented. I've been looking for a motherboard for a 166 MHz Pentium MMX processor. (I swapped some stuff for it) People have recommended the ASUS TX97 series and/or the P55T2P4 Rev 3.0 or greater. According to the ASUS product info page, the ENTIRE TX series requires either: A) ATX Power Supply and ATX-to-AT Power Connector Adapter (97, 97-E) or B) ATX Power Supply (97-X, 97-XV, 97-XE) and, I assume an ATX case (since these are ATX boards). Since I don't have an ATX tower OR an ATX Power Supply, I assume that I need to go the P55T2P4 route... (unless I want to spend some more money). My question: Can anyone verify whether the P55T2P4 will work with my 'regular' AT-style Power Supply? (As I understand it, the ATX power supply supplies 3.3v, in addition to a different pin configuration, etc. -- mine *doesn't*.. just +5v, -5v, +12v, -12v.) I've written to ASUS and several retailers and have received *NO* reply. :-( Thank you for your time, Keith. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 14:42:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06795 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usr09.primenet.com (tlambert@usr09.primenet.com [206.165.6.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06790 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11598; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:42:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199709082142.OAA11598@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Divert sockets.. To: kpneal@pobox.com (Kevin P. Neal) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:42:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970908173037.00e11ea0@mail.mindspring.com> from "Kevin P. Neal" at Sep 8, 97 01:30:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >Well, the 68000 had user and supervisor modes, but no page-level protection > >like the 030 and above (and the 68020 with the 68851 MMU)--and most other > >processors with demand paging--do. Which is why I had to put a 68010 in my A1000 and port SVR3.2. 8-). > The '020+MMU and up machines were able to do memory protection, but it was > never built into the Amiga OS. Hell, the Amiga OS used move processor status word in its own tools and it's PC emulator, and wouldn't run on an 010 happily for a long time. You had to stal code from a virus to get the 010 protection patch to live over reboots to run them... 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 15:03:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08193 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust85.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08186 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id SAA07578; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970908180219.40521@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:02:19 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970908153822.27586@lemis.com> <199709082133.OAA09929@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <199709082133.OAA09929@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 09:33:28PM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 09:33:28PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > [ ... ] > > > Any other suggestions? > > fvwm95. > > Graphical logins. > > Other Windows95-type crap. WAH, NO, ANYTHING but that! :) :) :) -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 15:05:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08478 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08447 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA11190 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:05:19 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id AAA09567 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:04:55 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-uucp-2.9) id XAA24907; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:58:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970908235851.19644@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:58:51 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ASUS P55T2P4 info.... References: <199709081336.NAA02334@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199709081336.NAA02334@ix.netcom.com>; from K.Ridge on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 01:36:06PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3592 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to K.Ridge: > Can anyone verify whether the P55T2P4 will work with my 'regular' > AT-style > Power Supply? (As I understand it, the ATX power supply > supplies 3.3v, in > addition to a different pin configuration, etc. -- > mine *doesn't*.. just +5v, This mail is written on a T2P4 motherboard. I've been running for months with it and have a standard AT power supply. The ASUS TX97 motherboard come in two models I think, one regular model and one ending with -X for the ATX format. After reading one document from ASUS, you can find the following. For the 430TX Intel chipset family: TX97 PCI/ISA/ASUS MediaBus, P75-P200 MMX, SDRAM, PB SRAM, BM UltraDMA/33 IDE, H/W monitoring, ACPI & Super Multi I/O TX97-E = TX97 + EDO/FPM support TX97-X = TX97 + ATX Form factor + 16bit PnP Audio, USB & Super Multi I/O TX97-XE = TX97-E + ATX Form factor + 16bit PnP Audio, USB & Super Multi I/O TX97-XV = TX97-XE + 64bit ATI VT/GT VGA For the 430HX family: P/I P55T2P4 PCI/ISA/ASUS MediaBus, P75-P200 MMX, EDO/FPM, PB SRAM, Busmaster IDE, Super Multi I/O P/I P55T2P4S = T2P4 with onboard 7880-based Adaptec SCSI adapter P/I XP55T2P4 = T2P4 + ATX Form factor -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 15:30:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10226 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usr09.primenet.com (tlambert@usr09.primenet.com [206.165.6.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10218 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA15359; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:30:36 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199709082230.PAA15359@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? To: hcremean@vt.edu Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:30:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19970908180219.40521@wakky.dyn.ml.org> from "Lee Cremeans" at Sep 8, 97 06:02:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > [ ... ] > > > > > Any other suggestions? > > > > fvwm95. > > > > Graphical logins. > > > > Other Windows95-type crap. > > WAH, NO, ANYTHING but that! :) :) :) I think his goals could be stated as: "Better a Win95 user with a FreeBSD engine than a Win95 user with a Win95 engine." If so, having a "Win95 mask" for FreeBSD is the best way to achieve those goals. No one said it would be the default (but of course, if it was, a power user could change it, and the target "market" would have a hard time putting the mask on an unmasked system, so maybe it should be the default, if only the defualt install option selection). Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 15:36:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10702 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:36:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10687 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18825 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Sep 1997 21:37:07 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19970908164852.40911@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 14:37:07 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Greg Lehey; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: > On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: > >> > >> PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a > >> question that's been bugging me for some time now... > > > > Linear or rotary actuator? > > I'd always equated "voice coil" with linear actuators. I'd guess the > early 70s. We installed the first UNIVAC 8440s in 1973. I think they > were voice coil. They looked like 3330 copies. > > > The linear VC actuator probably predates the use of stepper motors; > > I'd think so. The stepper motors wouldn't have got into hard drives > until about the ST-506. The 26MB Shugart 14" drive had stepper and AC spinfle motor on a long belt. > > Greg --- Sincerely Yours, (Sent on 08-Sep-97, 14:19:04 by XF-Mail) Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.643.5559, Emergency: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 15:36:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10712 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10694 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18835 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Sep 1997 21:37:09 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19970908151823.35891@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 14:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Greg Lehey; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: > Sure. In fact, I'm astounded how much disk drives have improved in > the last 15 years. In 1982, Tandem introduced a 540 MB CDC SMD disk > drive, the disk drive for gluttons. It was a heap of shit. It > weighed a ton, was a real pig to program (it went offline for over 30 > seconds to perform its power on self test, and the system had to > decide whether it was meditating or dead), and it wasn't overly > reliable. We pardoned it because of its high capacity. It still had > the same transfer rates and positioning times that I mentioned above, > probably because of its 14" construction (the last of its kind. After > that, we went to little 8" Fujitsus). Try and find a new production > disk drive *anywhere* with only 540 MB, 30 ms positioning, 800 kB/sec > transfer rate nowadays. By comparison, even the shittiest IDE drives > are a dream. In terms of recording density, drives improved dramatically. In terms of performance, WHEN COMPARED TO CPU IMPROVEMENTS, they are falling behind at about 50% per year. This was my orignal point. The details, although amusing are secondary here (they make for a great chat along the line of ``I am older but less senile than you are...'' :-). Waiting for 1GB RAM is also wrong. It solves none of the static, inert storage needs. --- Sincerely Yours, (Sent on 08-Sep-97, 14:22:04 by XF-Mail) Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.643.5559, Emergency: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 15:58:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12232 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12215 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA03251; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:56:57 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA15234; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:26:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970909082656.57842@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:26:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Simon Shapiro Cc: hcremean@vt.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970908164852.40911@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:37:07PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:37:07PM -0700, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Hi Greg Lehey; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a >>>> question that's been bugging me for some time now... >>> >>> Linear or rotary actuator? >> >> I'd always equated "voice coil" with linear actuators. I'd guess the >> early 70s. We installed the first UNIVAC 8440s in 1973. I think they >> were voice coil. They looked like 3330 copies. >> >>> The linear VC actuator probably predates the use of stepper motors; >> >> I'd think so. The stepper motors wouldn't have got into hard drives >> until about the ST-506. > > The 26MB Shugart 14" drive had stepper and AC spinfle motor on a long belt. When was that introduced? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 16:03:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12585 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12563 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA03404; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:01:13 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA15255; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:31:06 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970909083105.61432@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:31:05 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: hcremean@vt.edu Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? References: <19970908153822.27586@lemis.com> <199709082133.OAA09929@usr09.primenet.com> <19970908180219.40521@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970908180219.40521@wakky.dyn.ml.org>; from Lee Cremeans on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 06:02:19PM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 06:02:19PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 09:33:28PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> [ ... ] >> >>> Any other suggestions? >> >> fvwm95. >> >> Graphical logins. >> >> Other Windows95-type crap. > > WAH, NO, ANYTHING but that! :) :) :) You don't have to use them. I'm sure a lot of people will. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 16:07:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12956 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.telstra.net (nico.telstra.net [139.130.204.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12947 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by nico.telstra.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA03611; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:07:21 +1000 Received: (grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id IAA15281; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:37:20 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970909083719.55581@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:37:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Richard Tobin Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Is this (SCSI) tape drive compatible with FreeBSD? References: <199709081357.OAA21518@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709081357.OAA21518@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>; from Richard Tobin on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:57:59PM +0100 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved to -chat) On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:57:59PM +0100, Richard Tobin wrote: > I have an HP T4000s and I can't unreservedly recommend it. Mine > stopped working (continual shoe-shining after restoring a few hundred > MB) and the HP technical support response was "we don't support it > under unix". When I explained that it was clearly a hardware problem, > they said it must be that my "unix files" were "corrupt". Eventually > I talked to a supervisor who agreed to accept the drive for testing, > and last week they phoned to say that yes it is faulty and they will > send me a replacement. Sounds like HP. I recently moved from Germany to Australia, and carried my machine in carry-on luggage, including an HP C1533A DDS-2 drive, which arrived slightly the worse for wear. After some attempts, I discovered that HP Australia refuses to have anything to do with it, since it was bought as an OEM device in Germany. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 16:20:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13698 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust85.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13674 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id TAA10843; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970908192000.37015@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:20:00 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970908180219.40521@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <199709082230.PAA15359@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79e In-Reply-To: <199709082230.PAA15359@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 10:30:35PM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 10:30:35PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Other Windows95-type crap. > > > > WAH, NO, ANYTHING but that! :) :) :) > > I think his goals could be stated as: > > "Better a Win95 user with a FreeBSD engine than a Win95 user with a > Win95 engine." > > If so, having a "Win95 mask" for FreeBSD is the best way to achieve > those goals. I'd agree with that...just as long as it isn't dumbed down TOO much.. PS: I was just being silly, sorry if it confused you... -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 16:51:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16577 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16563 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21533 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Sep 1997 23:52:03 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19970909082656.57842@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 16:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hcremean@vt.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Greg Lehey; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: > On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:37:07PM -0700, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > > > Hi Greg Lehey; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: > >>>> > >>>> PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is > >>>> a > >>>> question that's been bugging me for some time now... > >>> > >>> Linear or rotary actuator? > >> > >> I'd always equated "voice coil" with linear actuators. I'd guess the > >> early 70s. We installed the first UNIVAC 8440s in 1973. I think > >> they > >> were voice coil. They looked like 3330 copies. > >> > >>> The linear VC actuator probably predates the use of stepper motors; > >> > >> I'd think so. The stepper motors wouldn't have got into hard drives > >> until about the ST-506. > > > > The 26MB Shugart 14" drive had stepper and AC spinfle motor on a long > > belt. > > When was that introduced? > > Greg I do not remember. We used it in several Z-80 MP machines we built. That was way before 8" drives, before any PC. The machine was an S-100 multi-processor. Maybe the fact that we used the first US shipment of 64kbit DRAM on that machine will give you a clue. Micropolis was experimenting with 8" drives about a year later. --- Sincerely Yours, (Sent on 08-Sep-97, 16:48:47 by XF-Mail) Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.643.5559, Emergency: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 16:57:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16822 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16809 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA15594; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:27:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970909092707.51988@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:27:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: jbryant@tfs.net Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Yana Lehey Subject: Re: 11 year old needs FreeBSD mentor in Arizona. References: <34143F83.64880EEB@whistle.com> <199709081856.NAA01483@argus.tfs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709081856.NAA01483@argus.tfs.net>; from Jim Bryant on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 01:56:24PM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved to -chat) On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 01:56:24PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > In reply: >> Anyone in or near Scottsdale AZ.? >> 11YO has got lost in the disk partitionning maze, and needs >> talking out.... >> >> respond to me (or at least CC me if you go direct..) >> >> julian > > kewl!@# > > Let's convert them young so they never know the EVIL of WinBl0Wz!@# Right. He's done the correct first thing and wiped out his C: partition :-) Now he seems to be having trouble booting "flash kernel". Are we going to set up a missionary squad? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 17:27:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18193 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18185 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 17:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA15797; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:57:01 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970909095701.10527@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:57:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Simon Shapiro Cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hcremean@vt.edu Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970909082656.57842@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Simon Shapiro on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 04:52:03PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 04:52:03PM -0700, Simon Shapiro wrote: > > Hi Greg Lehey; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:37:07PM -0700, Simon Shapiro wrote: >>> >>> Hi Greg Lehey; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: >>>> On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 03:46:35PM +1000, Mike Smith wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is >>>>>> a >>>>>> question that's been bugging me for some time now... >>>>> >>>>> Linear or rotary actuator? >>>> >>>> I'd always equated "voice coil" with linear actuators. I'd guess the >>>> early 70s. We installed the first UNIVAC 8440s in 1973. I think >>>> they >>>> were voice coil. They looked like 3330 copies. >>>> >>>>> The linear VC actuator probably predates the use of stepper motors; >>>> >>>> I'd think so. The stepper motors wouldn't have got into hard drives >>>> until about the ST-506. >>> >>> The 26MB Shugart 14" drive had stepper and AC spinfle motor on a long >>> belt. >> >> When was that introduced? >> >> Greg > > I do not remember. We used it in several Z-80 MP machines we built. > That was way before 8" drives, before any PC. The machine was an S-100 > multi-processor. Maybe the fact that we used the first US shipment of > 64kbit DRAM on that machine will give you a clue. > Micropolis was experimenting with 8" drives about a year later. Sounds like about 1980. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 18:24:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22330 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendero-ppp.i-connect.net (sendero-ppp.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22322 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24394 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Sep 1997 01:24:23 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2-alpha [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199709080546.PAA01604@word.smith.net.au> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 18:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Atlas Telecom From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) Cc: chat@freebsd.org, hcremean@vt.edu Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi Mike Smith; On 08-Sep-97 you wrote: > > > > PS: When did the first voice-coil-seek hard drives come out? This is a > > question that's been bugging me for some time now... > > Linear or rotary actuator? The linear VC actuator probably predates > the use of stepper motors; certainly some of the more impressive > magnets in my collection started their lives in disk units. > > High-precision stepper motor controls are more complex than the linear > displacement sensor approach that you use with a linear VC actuator too; > it's the mechanicals and the space that made steppers cheaper, AFAIK. One of the early one amoung non-computer manufacturers was Priam. Another early one was Micropolis. Someone eas making an 8" FLOPPY with linear voice coil. I tore apart an early CD drive that had a linear voice coil (but these are modern day things :-) DEC shipped linear voice coil, so did IBM, CDC, etc. --- Sincerely Yours, (Sent on 08-Sep-97, 18:21:38 by XF-Mail) Simon Shapiro Atlas Telecom Senior Architect 14355 SW Allen Blvd., Suite 130 Beaverton OR 97005 Shimon@i-Connect.Net Voice: 503.643.5559, Emergency: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 19:11:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24804 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24797 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA22198; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:17:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:17:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709090217.UAA22198@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org Subject: Re: 11 year old needs FreeBSD mentor in Arizona. In-Reply-To: <19970909092707.51988@lemis.com> References: <34143F83.64880EEB@whistle.com> <199709081856.NAA01483@argus.tfs.net> <19970909092707.51988@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > (moved to -chat) > > On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 01:56:24PM -0500, Jim Bryant wrote: > > In reply: > >> Anyone in or near Scottsdale AZ.? > >> 11YO has got lost in the disk partitionning maze, and needs > >> talking out.... > >> > >> respond to me (or at least CC me if you go direct..) > >> > >> julian > > > > kewl!@# > > > > Let's convert them young so they never know the EVIL of WinBl0Wz!@# > > Right. He's done the correct first thing and wiped out his C: > partition :-) Now he seems to be having trouble booting "flash > kernel". > > Are we going to set up a missionary squad? Terry's only an hour away. Of course, we don't want to scare the kid off, right? ;^) Hey, Terry, you can stop by and see Johnnie on the way up. He moved to Phoenix a month or so ago. Call me for his number. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 19:20:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25227 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usr07.primenet.com (tlambert@usr07.primenet.com [206.165.6.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25220 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01644; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:20:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199709090220.TAA01644@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: 11 year old needs FreeBSD mentor in Arizona. To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 02:20:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, chat@freebsd.org, terry@lambert.org In-Reply-To: <199709090217.UAA22198@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from "Wes Peters" at Sep 8, 97 08:17:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > >> Anyone in or near Scottsdale AZ.? > > >> 11YO has got lost in the disk partitionning maze, and needs > > >> talking out.... > > >> > > >> respond to me (or at least CC me if you go direct..) > > >> > > >> julian > > > > > > kewl!@# > > > > > > Let's convert them young so they never know the EVIL of WinBl0Wz!@# > > > > Right. He's done the correct first thing and wiped out his C: > > partition :-) Now he seems to be having trouble booting "flash > > kernel". I want to rewrite the partitioning stuff anyway, so I'd be a bad choice: the reason I want to rewrite it is i think it's unusable, and I've been hacking on UNIX boxes for more than 14 years. I can't use the damn thing; it's mostly disklabel that makes me want to throw up. > > Are we going to set up a missionary squad? Actually, a general missionary squad is a good idea. Sean and I were there peering at him when Paul Vixie finally installed FreeBSD on one of his boxes. 8-). > Terry's only an hour away. Of course, we don't want to scare the kid > off, right? ;^) It's more like an hour and a half. There's a couple of Phoenix people on the lists; you should be able to tap them on the shoulders, if you tap hard enough. > Hey, Terry, you can stop by and see Johnnie on the way up. He moved to > Phoenix a month or so ago. Call me for his number. Good idea. What's your number? Or should I call Johnnie for it? ;-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 20:13:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27900 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27894 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA11932 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:11:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: At Large Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I read At Large (by David H. Freedman and Charles C. Mann) yesterday. The story of "Phantomd" (and his IRC #hack friends Grok and Jsz), who broke into an extraordinary number of computer systems around 1991-92. A good read; a sad story; a cautionary tale; a discouraging view of computer security. I had not known about Phantomd before; probably many of you did. And it mentions FreeBSD, once (p. 220). Someone with the username mycroft (he is not identified by real nameany) at MIT, one of the places successfully and repeatedly intruded upon, writes the sniffer that tracks what Phantomd is doing. "Although not many of his fellows in the Laboratory for Computer Science knew it, Mycroft was on the board of Free-BSD, an international project that worked, like the Free Software Foundation, to create a version of Unix without code from AT&T." Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 20:46:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29387 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29356 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA22280; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:53:37 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:53:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709090353.VAA22280@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) In-Reply-To: <19970909095701.10527@lemis.com> References: <19970909082656.57842@lemis.com> <19970909095701.10527@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > > I do not remember. We used it in several Z-80 MP machines we built. > > That was way before 8" drives, before any PC. The machine was an S-100 > > multi-processor. Maybe the fact that we used the first US shipment of > > 64kbit DRAM on that machine will give you a clue. > > Micropolis was experimenting with 8" drives about a year later. > > Sounds like about 1980. Yeah. I remember getting 8K SRAMS for my H-8, and sellcing rows of 16K DRAMs for Apple ][s. 64K DRAMs? This guy was *spoiled*! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 20:48:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29476 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.96.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29468 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (lot.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [203.20.121.21]) by genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA28472 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:18:12 +0930 (CST) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.atrad.adelaide.edu.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00636; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:14:43 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709090314.NAA00636@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: At Large In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:11:59 MST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 13:14:41 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And it mentions FreeBSD, once (p. 220). Someone with the username > mycroft (he is not identified by real nameany) at MIT, one of > the places successfully and repeatedly intruded upon, writes the > sniffer that tracks what Phantomd is doing. "Although not many of > his fellows in the Laboratory for Computer Science knew it, Mycroft > was on the board of Free-BSD, an international project that worked, > like the Free Software Foundation, to create a version of Unix > without code from AT&T." *laugh* Now, I bet _that_ smarts. (mycroft is a NetBSD core member) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 20:57:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29909 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29904 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA06344; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:27:36 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970909132735.60877@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:27:35 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI) References: <19970909082656.57842@lemis.com> <19970909095701.10527@lemis.com> <199709090353.VAA22280@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709090353.VAA22280@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 09:53:37PM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 09:53:37PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >>> I do not remember. We used it in several Z-80 MP machines we built. >>> That was way before 8" drives, before any PC. The machine was an S-100 >>> multi-processor. Maybe the fact that we used the first US shipment of >>> 64kbit DRAM on that machine will give you a clue. >>> Micropolis was experimenting with 8" drives about a year later. >> >> Sounds like about 1980. > > Yeah. I remember getting 8K SRAMS for my H-8, and sellcing rows of 16K > DRAMs for Apple ][s. 64K DRAMs? This guy was *spoiled*! ;^) Oh, we're me-tooing, are we? I just found my first computer out in the shed while I was looking for something useful. 20 years and a couple of months old, Z-80 with 2 2112 static RAM chips. Remember them? 4x256 bits. The whole machine had 256 bytes, so I wire-wrapped a 4K board, but could only afford 8 2102s. Then I moved to S-100, because Bill Godbout was offering 8 K memory boards at prices I could only dream about in Germany. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 21:09:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00578 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00565 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA13111; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: At Large In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:11:59 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 21:09:55 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > >I read At Large (by David H. Freedman and Charles C. Mann) yesterday. >The story of "Phantomd" (and his IRC #hack friends Grok and Jsz), >who broke into an extraordinary number of computer systems around >1991-92. > >A good read; a sad story; a cautionary tale; a discouraging view of >computer security. I had not known about Phantomd before; probably >many of you did. > >And it mentions FreeBSD, once (p. 220). Someone with the username >mycroft (he is not identified by real nameany) at MIT, one of >the places successfully and repeatedly intruded upon, writes the >sniffer that tracks what Phantomd is doing. "Although not many of >his fellows in the Laboratory for Computer Science knew it, Mycroft >was on the board of Free-BSD, an international project that worked, >like the Free Software Foundation, to create a version of Unix >without code from AT&T." 1) FreeBSD didn't exist in 1991-1992 2) There's only one mycroft at MIT that I know about, and he was never part of the FreeBSD "board" or development. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 22:36:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04443 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from u3.farm.idt.net (root@u3.farm.idt.net [169.132.8.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04437 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idt.net (ppp-26.ts-1.mlb.idt.net [169.132.71.26]) by u3.farm.idt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA19635; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:35:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3414DEEE.B7409EA2@idt.net> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 01:30:22 -0400 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bill Godbout (was: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI)) References: <19970909082656.57842@lemis.com> <19970909095701.10527@lemis.com> <199709090353.VAA22280@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19970909132735.60877@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: > Oh, we're me-tooing, are we? I just found my first computer out in > the shed while I was looking for something useful. 20 years and a > couple of months old, Z-80 with 2 2112 static RAM chips. Remember > them? 4x256 bits. The whole machine had 256 bytes, so I wire-wrapped > a 4K board, but could only afford 8 2102s. Then I moved to S-100, > because Bill Godbout was offering 8 K memory boards at prices I could > only dream about in Germany. Say, whatever happened to Godbout - the company and/or Bill? After the early 80's I never heard of/about him again... Any of you Bay Area folks know? Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 22:37:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04479 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04473 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA07312; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:06:56 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970909150655.60403@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:06:55 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Gary T. Corcoran" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bill Godbout (was: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE vs SCSI)) References: <19970909082656.57842@lemis.com> <19970909095701.10527@lemis.com> <199709090353.VAA22280@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19970909132735.60877@lemis.com> <3414DEEE.B7409EA2@idt.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <3414DEEE.B7409EA2@idt.net>; from Gary T. Corcoran on Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 01:30:22AM -0400 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 01:30:22AM -0400, Gary T. Corcoran wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Oh, we're me-tooing, are we? I just found my first computer out in >> the shed while I was looking for something useful. 20 years and a >> couple of months old, Z-80 with 2 2112 static RAM chips. Remember >> them? 4x256 bits. The whole machine had 256 bytes, so I wire-wrapped >> a 4K board, but could only afford 8 2102s. Then I moved to S-100, >> because Bill Godbout was offering 8 K memory boards at prices I could >> only dream about in Germany. > > Say, whatever happened to Godbout - the company and/or Bill? > After the early 80's I never heard of/about him again... > Any of you Bay Area folks know? I saw him on a TV show in the early 90s. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 22:38:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04512 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04507 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA18587; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:38:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: At Large In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:11:59 PDT." Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 22:38:52 -0700 Message-ID: <18583.873783532@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > And it mentions FreeBSD, once (p. 220). Someone with the username > mycroft (he is not identified by real nameany) at MIT, one of > the places successfully and repeatedly intruded upon, writes the > sniffer that tracks what Phantomd is doing. "Although not many of > his fellows in the Laboratory for Computer Science knew it, Mycroft > was on the board of Free-BSD, an international project that worked, > like the Free Software Foundation, to create a version of Unix > without code from AT&T." Sounds like Charles Hannum, and he was actually "on the board" of NetBSD, not FreeBSD. That reference must have annoyed him somewhat. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 23:32:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07049 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07036 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA12346 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:32:56 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id IAA24809 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:32:41 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-uucp-2.9) id IAA26647; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:17:41 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970909081740.27870@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:17:40 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: At Large References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 08:11:59PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3592 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Annelise Anderson: > sniffer that tracks what Phantomd is doing. "Although not many of > his fellows in the Laboratory for Computer Science knew it, Mycroft > was on the board of Free-BSD, an international project that worked, > like the Free Software Foundation, to create a version of Unix > without code from AT&T." Hmmm, mycroft is a pretty common login name but one at MIT is probably Charles Hannum who was never in FreeBSD but in NetBSD. Remember the Great Flame War in '93... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 23:33:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07088 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07069 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA12343 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:32:55 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id IAA24811 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:32:42 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-uucp-2.9) id IAA26667; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:30:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970909083003.19325@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:30:03 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My FreeBSD Wish List... References: <16716.873766786@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <16716.873766786@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 05:59:46PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3592 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > soon to be replaced by a completely from-scratch effort. The existing > package tools, like the existing system installation tools, are > *prototypes* which lived about 2 years longer than intended. ;-) Like sysinstall you mean ? [ducks and runs!] -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 8 23:41:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08483 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08467 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 28187 on Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:41:32 GMT; id GAA28187 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA00893; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:57:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970909005744.16904@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:57:44 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Divert sockets.. References: <19970908081913.36000@pavilion.net> <24706.873711236@time.cdrom.com> <199709081245.OAA29626@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <199709081245.OAA29626@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, Sep 08, 1997 at 02:45:42PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund shared with us: > > [Josef Karthauser ] > > > That's not entirely true. Is it? The 4000 had memory protection and the > > > same O/S. (a500 ran 68000, a4000 ran 68030/40). > > [Jordan K. Hubbard] > > It didn't matter - the way the AmigaDOS service calling conventions > > were designed, you needed to be able to share memory trivially (and > > unprotectedly) with the OS so ye old Guru Meditation was still a > > frequent visitor even with a 68040 chip inside. Only of you used - or wrote - broken software. I've gotten a bit an arrogant approach towards programming after I managed to write programs on my Amiga that didn't crash (the system) and freed all of their allocated memory. :) The difference with Windows and Unix is that you get a 'the appli- cation had performed an illegal operation and will be shut down' or 'segmentation violation' error with those, and the Amiga would give you a 'software error' with the advice to restart the machine. Actually, you had to do quite a lot of harm to get a Guru Meditation (the name comes from the time that Amiga Computers, Inc. still made joysticks and the developers used some kind of twister-like input device to practice staying perfectly balanced while thinking about a problem) right away, without the 'software error' requester. Ah well, GetMsg() simply returned simply the address of that message, but GetMsg()/ReplyMsg() could have been simply adapted to actually copy the message into the memory space of the application that got the message, and free it again. I admit that it's a bit late to make this suggestion. :) > This is actually not quite correct. AmigaOS was partially designed to > allow a fairly high level of memory protection, but unfortunately some > parts allocated by user programs would still have to be publicly > available. And nobody bothered to specify which parts that was. A > real pity; most of the Amiga architecture was beautiful. (LOTS of it > was better than Unix, IMHO) Indeed, indeed. The fact that not everything is a file, for instance? Where are the days that you could call BltMaskBitMapRastPort() or SwapBitsRastPortClipRect() and get away with it? :) Backwards compatibility is one of the things that killed the Amiga (though not it's devoted users, who are a _lot_ more fanatical than the people worshiping deceased royalties or overweight rock-and-roll kings). Event the Amiga 4000/040 was completely hardware compatible with the Amiga 1000. Well, Commodore going belly-up might have had something to do with it, too. And every OS function was in a library. You could replace any part of the OS with a function or a library of your own, if you wanted to. (Which made it exceptionally suitable for virusses, too.) Even things like the scheduler could be patched. Aah, those were the days. What, is it 1997 already? :) - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 00:24:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18148 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18131 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA19357; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:24:08 -0700 (PDT) To: "Jamil J. Weatherbee" cc: "S. Sigala" , Brandon Gillespie , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My FreeBSD Wish List... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Sep 1997 22:48:03 PDT." Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 00:24:08 -0700 Message-ID: <19353.873789848@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Whatever you do, ... [elided for brevity] It's not often that one gets to see 132 words in a single sentence like this. :) Nice, uh, rant Jamil. I haven't the foggiest idea what it was trying to say, but it was a nice rant all the same. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 01:30:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02755 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02746 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA19901; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:30:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Ollivier Robert cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My FreeBSD Wish List... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Sep 1997 08:30:03 +0200." <19970909083003.19325@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 01:30:37 -0700 Message-ID: <19897.873793837@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > > soon to be replaced by a completely from-scratch effort. The existing > > package tools, like the existing system installation tools, are ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Yes. > > *prototypes* which lived about 2 years longer than intended. ;-) > > Like sysinstall you mean ? [ducks and runs!] > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.f r > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #29: Tue Aug 26 21:05:09 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 06:48:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA09652 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from croute.com (archive.croute.com [199.97.106.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09643 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 06:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bldg1.croute.com (bldg1.croute.com [199.97.106.99]) by croute.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA04131 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:36:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199709091336.IAA04131@croute.com> Received: from COMPUROUTE/SpoolDir by bldg1.croute.com (Mercury 1.31); 9 Sep 97 09:03:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from SpoolDir by COMPUROUTE (Mercury 1.31); 9 Sep 97 09:03:15 -0600 (CST) From: "Larry Dolinar" Organization: CompuRoute, Inc. To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:03:06 -0600 CDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ASUS P55T2P4 info.... X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Larry Dolinar" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal In-reply-to: <199709081336.NAA02334@ix.netcom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Can anyone verify whether the P55T2P4 will work with my 'regular' AT-style >Power Supply? (As I understand it, the ATX power supply supplies 3.3v, in >addition to a different pin configuration, etc. -- mine *doesn't*.. just +5v, >-5v, +12v, -12v.) Absolutely; I've installed them as motherboard upgrades (old power supplies) as well as new systems. No problems. regards, larry From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 13:50:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04797 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oldyeller.comtest.com (comtest.hits.net [206.127.244.117] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04769 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from graphics.comtest.com (graphics.comtest.com [206.127.245.194]) by oldyeller.comtest.com (8.8.5/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA07005; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:39:48 -1000 (HST) Message-Id: <199709092039.KAA07005@oldyeller.comtest.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Randal S. Masutani" Organization: ComTest Technologies, Inc. To: Greg Lehey Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:52:18 -1000 Subject: Re: Bill Godbout (was: lousy disk perf. under cpu load (was IDE Reply-to: randal@comtest.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Priority: normal In-reply-to: <19970909150655.60403@lemis.com> References: <3414DEEE.B7409EA2@idt.net>; from Gary T. Corcoran on Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 01:30:22AM -0400 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 01:30:22AM -0400, Gary T. Corcoran wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> Oh, we're me-tooing, are we? I just found my first computer out in > >> the shed while I was looking for something useful. 20 years and a > >> couple of months old, Z-80 with 2 2112 static RAM chips. Remember > >> them? 4x256 bits. The whole machine had 256 bytes, so I wire-wrapped > >> a 4K board, but could only afford 8 2102s. Then I moved to S-100, > >> because Bill Godbout was offering 8 K memory boards at prices I could > >> only dream about in Germany. > > > > Say, whatever happened to Godbout - the company and/or Bill? > > After the early 80's I never heard of/about him again... > > Any of you Bay Area folks know? > > I saw him on a TV show in the early 90s. > > Greg Bill frequents Hawaii a lot on the island of Maui. He visits with a friend of mine. He changed his company from Godbout Electronics to CompuPro in the early 80's and then to Viasyn in the late 80's. Which I think finally closed for business in the early 90's. I still have one of his CompuPro CPM system with a dual 8085/8088 processors and 8 inch floppies. Randal **************************** ComTest Technologies, Inc. 3049 Ualena St., Suite 1005 Honolulu, Hawaii 96819 **************************** From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 16:51:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16549 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16528 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA19556; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:19:42 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970910091942.35232@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:19:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? References: <19970909223106.MK41707@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199709092235.PAA00959@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709092235.PAA00959@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 10:35:17PM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 10:35:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>>> Any other suggestions? >>> >>> fvwm95. >> >> qvwm instead. Less complex, and IMHO less error-prone than fvwm95. >> I've been setting it up for a customer's machine recently. (Looks a >> little green at some edges still.) > > Does it look like Windows95 as well? I haven't played with it... I'd > be very interested if it did. Terry, I'm getting a bit worried about you. Has this NT stuff been doing funny things to your brain? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 18:26:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22669 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 18:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pogo.gnu.ai.mit.edu (brnstnd@pogo.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22644 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 18:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from melange.gnu.ai.mit.edu by pogo.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) with ESMTP id VAA09424; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (devnull@localhost) by melange.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.6.12GNU) id VAA08289; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709100126.VAA08289@melange.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: "Joel N. Weber II" To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19970909081740.27870@keltia.freenix.fr> (message from Ollivier Robert on Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:17:40 +0200) Subject: Re: At Large x-url: http://www.red-bean.com/~nemo x-attribution: nemo x-foobar: The prairies are vast plains covered by treeless forests. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmmm, mycroft is a pretty common login name but one at MIT is probably Charles Hannum who was never in FreeBSD but in NetBSD. Remember the Great Flame War in '93... What was teh Great Flame War in '93? I wasn't around back then... From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 21:13:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03678 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from usr04.primenet.com (tlambert@usr04.primenet.com [206.165.6.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03670 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA09804; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 21:13:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199709100413.VAA09804@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:13:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19970910091942.35232@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Sep 10, 97 09:19:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Does it look like Windows95 as well? I haven't played with it... I'd > > be very interested if it did. > > Terry, I'm getting a bit worried about you. Has this NT stuff been > doing funny things to your brain? Heh. What if I thought the target market not being tapped were people who already had Windows do something to their brains? The only way to win these people over is fire with fire, IMO. That still doesn't mean that I'd install the shell and tools myself, only that they should be the default unless deselected in order to win these people over. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 22:30:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07147 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07139 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 22:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA23831; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:39:14 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:39:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709100539.XAA23831@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in the "news" again?!?!? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm a registered BeOS developer as well as a FreeBSD user, and so was amused to find this snippet in the latest Be Developer News: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > BE ENGINEERING INSIGHTS: Time Zone Support in the BeOS, or > Stealing Code to Solve a Problem > By Mani Varadarajan > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > [...] > > Luckily, the BeOS is not the first system to face this > problem. As all good engineers eventually learn, one of the > best ways of approaching an old and theoretically > uninteresting problem is to adapt someone else's solution to > one's needs. In this respect, because of its long history of > widespread usage, I found that the Unix world solved the > problem most completely and accurately. And since the world > is also fortunate to have access to the full source code > base of multiple free, Unix-like operating systems, I was > easily able to adapt the code to the BeOS. > > The BeOS implementation of time zone support is based on code > from the FreeBSD system (http://www.freebsd.org). This > implementation has three parts to it: > > [...] Nice of them to admit it, eh? ;^) BeOS is, in my opinion, the operating system where someone FINALLY outdid UNIX, in terms of design, overall cohesion of the system, and being designed pretty much from the ground up as an "object oriented" system. See www.be.com if you're interested. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 9 23:55:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11653 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11645 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA01516 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:55:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA04486; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:50:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970910085023.GB04052@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:50:23 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in the "news" again?!?!? References: <199709100539.XAA23831@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199709100539.XAA23831@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Sep 9, 1997 23:39:14 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Wes Peters wrote: > > The BeOS implementation of time zone support is based on code > > from the FreeBSD system (http://www.freebsd.org). This > > implementation has three parts to it: > > > > [...] > > Nice of them to admit it, eh? ;^) We should be fair to mention that it's not our invention either. It's the public domain `tz' package. (This makes us dependant on them as well, unfortunately, since they have been changing timezone names to whatever meets their taste, without much respect to well-established de-facto standards. This put me into a CEST timezone, after living in MET DST for quite a number of years. All protests didn't help, these people are living in the impression they are the only correct, and history doesn't count for them. Fortunately for our Russian friends, they at least took back their terrible idea of a Moscow timezone called MOST, where people used to use MSK all the time) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 00:36:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13892 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13874 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 00:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15514 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:36:10 +1000 Received: from localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with SMTP id RAA19463; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:35:24 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org cc: syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: At Large References: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> In-Reply-To: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "Tue, 09 Sep 1997 04:09:55 +0000" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:35:23 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, 9th September 1997, David Greenman wrote: >>"Although not many of >>his fellows in the Laboratory for Computer Science knew it, Mycroft >>was on the board of Free-BSD, an international project that worked, >>like the Free Software Foundation, to create a version of Unix >>without code from AT&T." > > 1) FreeBSD didn't exist in 1991-1992 But 386BSD was all the rage at that time. It would be easy for a slightly fuzzy memory to forget the original name of FreeBSD's roots, or to bend reality while trying to simplify it. > 2) There's only one mycroft at MIT that I know about, and he was never part > of the FreeBSD "board" or development. But he was a patchkit contributor. So it looks like another one of those little history rewrites that the world regards as fact but which amuses those who were actually there. Situation normal. :-) Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 04:43:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA25306 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA25296 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA06217; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709101146.EAA06217@implode.root.com> To: Stephen McKay cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: At Large In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:35:23 +1000." <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:46:06 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >On Tuesday, 9th September 1997, David Greenman wrote: > >>>"Although not many of >>>his fellows in the Laboratory for Computer Science knew it, Mycroft >>>was on the board of Free-BSD, an international project that worked, >>>like the Free Software Foundation, to create a version of Unix >>>without code from AT&T." >> >> 1) FreeBSD didn't exist in 1991-1992 > >But 386BSD was all the rage at that time. It would be easy for a slightly >fuzzy memory to forget the original name of FreeBSD's roots, or to bend >reality while trying to simplify it. 386BSD didn't exist until early '92, so including 1991 in this is still wrong. >> 2) There's only one mycroft at MIT that I know about, and he was never part >> of the FreeBSD "board" or development. > >But he was a patchkit contributor. So it looks like another one of those >little history rewrites that the world regards as fact but which amuses >those who were actually there. Situation normal. :-) I think what really happened is that the writer confused NetBSD and FreeBSD and didn't realize that NetBSD didn't come into existence until '93. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 06:13:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA00280 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adam.adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA00267 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 06:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (leec@localhost) by adam.adonai.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA05286; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:12:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:12:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Lee Crites (AEI)" To: Terry Lambert cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? In-Reply-To: <199709100413.VAA09804@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: =>> > Does it look like Windows95 as well? I haven't played with it... I'd =>> > be very interested if it did. =>> =>> Terry, I'm getting a bit worried about you. Has this NT stuff been =>> doing funny things to your brain? => =>Heh. What if I thought the target market not being tapped were people =>who already had Windows do something to their brains? The only way =>to win these people over is fire with fire, IMO. My only 'failure' so far in my distribution of fbsd cd-rom's (thanks Jordan!!!) was a guy who wanted something more 'windoze' oriented. I don't know squat about X and setting it up, so I use someone else to do that part. I am looking forward to seeing this part of the new book -- hey, I might even set up X on my own server. Having said that -- along with my tremendous distain for all things windoze, I could see some real value in a chapter about setting up the system, along with some of the other ports and such, so it mimicks much of the windoze environment for the user. So far, from my experience only, most people just want to *use* the system. The printing company I 'converted' from sco to fbsd didn't really care about most of the things which I care about, only that it worked and worked well. I installed the system, generated a bunch of scripts, and they are happy people. (of course, missing the yearly 'maintenenace fee' to sco also made them happy, but that's another story) Anyway, that's my $0.02... Lee From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 07:41:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05341 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp20.portal.net.au [202.12.71.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05328 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:40:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00827; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:08:54 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709101408.AAA00827@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@freebsd.org cc: Luigi Rizzo Subject: Re: not the sounddriver this time .... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:50:38 +0200." <199709101250.OAA21535@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:08:52 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > .... but a cute new baby! > > Silvia Rizzo is born a couple of hours ago :) Congratulations! Being at a safe distance, and in good company, I'll leave the obvious PnP pun dangling. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 07:48:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05631 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crh.cl.msu.edu (crh.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05626 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by crh.cl.msu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA12088; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:48:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Henrich Message-Id: <199709101448.KAA12088@crh.cl.msu.edu> To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: not the sounddriver this time .... Newsgroups: lists.freebsd.hackers References: <5v6ae1$21e$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In lists.freebsd.hackers you write: >... but a cute new baby! >Silvia Rizzo is born a couple of hours ago :) >forgive the diversion and back to our regular programs... Congrats Luigi! -Crh -- Charles Henrich Michigan State University henrich@msu.edu http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 08:28:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07906 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07882 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29362; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:28:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:28:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709101528.JAA29362@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: At Large In-Reply-To: <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> References: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > 2) There's only one mycroft at MIT that I know about, and he was never part > > of the FreeBSD "board" or development. > > But he was a patchkit contributor. No he wasn't. Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 08:59:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09726 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09721 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00730; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709101557.IAA00730@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 to: Luigi Rizzo cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: not the sounddriver this time .... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:08:52 +1000." <199709101408.AAA00827@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:57:32 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > .... but a cute new baby! > > Silvia Rizzo is born a couple of hours ago :) > Congratulations, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 12:15:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20866 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20758; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:13:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199709101913.MAA20758@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: not the sounddriver this time .... To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat In-Reply-To: <199709101250.OAA21535@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at Sep 10, 97 02:50:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (moved to chat) Luigi Rizzo wrote: > > ... but a cute new baby! > > Silvia Rizzo is born a couple of hours ago :) Congratulations!! first child? what weight, lenght, eye color, etcc..... you gotta tell us more now ;) jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 13:15:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24141 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24136 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 21014 on Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:15:15 GMT; id UAA21014 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA00667; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:51:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970910215122.26475@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:51:22 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? References: <19970909223106.MK41707@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199709092235.PAA00959@usr02.primenet.com> <19970910091942.35232@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: <19970910091942.35232@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 09:19:42AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey shared with us: > On Tue, Sep 09, 1997 at 10:35:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > Does it look like Windows95 as well? I haven't played with it... I'd > > be very interested if it did. > > Terry, I'm getting a bit worried about you. Has this NT stuff been > doing funny things to your brain? NT doesn't do funny thing with your brain. I use NT. NT is good. Unix is ungood. Bill is good. I really love Bill. - Peter P.S. I bet you didn't know JKH's real name is Emmanuel Goldstein. :) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 15:09:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01109 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01099 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA47178; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:02:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:02:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: Peter Korsten Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? In-Reply-To: <19970910215122.26475@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > > NT doesn't do funny thing with your brain. I use NT. NT is good. > Unix is ungood. Bill is good. I really love Bill. > :-) Eat GRASS !!! Millions of cows can't be wrong ! ;-) Pedro. > - Peter > > P.S. I bet you didn't know JKH's real name is Emmanuel Goldstein. :) > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 15:49:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03834 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03809; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA27664; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:19:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970911081907.29251@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:19:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: not the sounddriver this time .... References: <199709101250.OAA21535@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709101250.OAA21535@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 02:50:38PM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 02:50:38PM +0200, Luigi Rizzo wrote: > ... but a cute new baby! > > Silvia Rizzo is born a couple of hours ago :) Congratulations! > forgive the diversion and back to our regular programs... This must be the first if you think it's going to be business as normal :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 16:19:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05769 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05757 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA27929; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:48:48 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970911084848.35941@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:48:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Peter Korsten , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? References: <19970910215122.26475@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 05:02:03PM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 05:02:03PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > >> >> NT doesn't do funny thing with your brain. I use NT. NT is good. >> Unix is ungood. Bill is good. I really love Bill. >> > >> -) > > Eat GRASS !!! Millions of cows can't be wrong ! ;-) And I thought that statement used to have something to do with flies. But a single Grog must be wrong. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 18:45:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14060 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (daemon@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au [130.102.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14045 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:45:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19504; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:45:20 +1000 Received: from troll.dtir.qld.gov.au by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.7.5/DEVETIR-E0.3a) with ESMTP id LAA10614; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:44:27 +1000 (EST) Received: from localhost (syssgm@localhost) by troll.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA04491; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:44:23 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709110144.LAA04491@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: troll.dtir.qld.gov.au: syssgm@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: At Large References: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> <199709101528.JAA29362@rocky.mt.sri.com> In-Reply-To: <199709101528.JAA29362@rocky.mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:28:09 -0600" Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:44:23 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, 10th September 1997, Nate Williams wrote: >>> 2) There's only one mycroft at MIT that I know about, and he was never part >>> of the FreeBSD "board" or development. >> >> But he was a patchkit contributor. > >No he wasn't. I based this assertion on /usr/share/doc/handbook/handbook.ascii on my 2.2.2 box (line 23291 if you care). If I can actually find a copy of the patchkit we'll see where the real misinformation is coming from. :-) And David Greenman wrote: >386BSD didn't exist until early '92, so including 1991 in this is still wrong. Hrm. I was sure I'd read about 386BSD in Dr Dobbs in 1991, though it might have been called BSD386 at the time. Again, if I dig down through the strata of my magazine archive, I'll be able to prove or disprove this too. Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 19:41:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17485 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17475 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:41:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA28890; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:10:58 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970911121058.49596@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:10:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Stephen McKay Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: At Large References: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> <199709101528.JAA29362@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709110144.LAA04491@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709110144.LAA04491@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au>; from Stephen McKay on Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 11:44:23AM +1000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 11:44:23AM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > On Wednesday, 10th September 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > >> 386BSD didn't exist until early '92, so including 1991 in this is still wrong. > > Hrm. I was sure I'd read about 386BSD in Dr Dobbs in 1991, though it might > have been called BSD386 at the time. Yes, you would have done. That was the internals series. I first saw it in August 1991, but I'm pretty sure it had been going for several months at the time. Remember that Bill was working with BSDI at the time. Nate's correct, however, about the release date: the first version of 386BSD was released in March, 1992. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 21:33:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25330 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25323 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA19019; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:33:55 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id GAA09913; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:33:17 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-uucp-2.10/nospam) id XAA05226; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970910232712.19572@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:27:12 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: Luigi Rizzo Cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: not the sounddriver this time .... References: <199709101250.OAA21535@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <199709101250.OAA21535@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>; from Luigi Rizzo on Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 02:50:38PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3634 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Luigi Rizzo: > Silvia Rizzo is born a couple of hours ago :) Congratulations to both the parents and the newly bron ! -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #31: Sat Sep 6 21:58:17 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 23:32:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA01625 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01616 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA25027; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:39:11 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:39:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709110639.AAA25027@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Luigi Rizzo CC: Greg Lehey , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: not the sounddriver this time .... In-Reply-To: <19970911081907.29251@lemis.com> References: <199709101250.OAA21535@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> <19970911081907.29251@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 10, 1997 at 02:50:38PM +0200, Luigi Rizzo wrote: % ... but a cute new baby! % % Silvia Rizzo is born a couple of hours ago :) Hey, great - your daughter shares my birthday! Congratulations to you and your wife, and hello to our newest FreeBSD "user." ;^) % forgive the diversion and back to our regular programs... Greg Lehey replied: > This must be the first if you think it's going to be business as > normal :-) Must be the first if he thinks it's going to be business at all for a while, at least for him. Luigi, I hope you slept a *lot* the last 4 months! ;^) (My first, Bailey Joanna Peters, is now 17 months old. She sleeps from 10:00 pm - 7:00 am most nights. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 10 23:36:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA01910 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01900 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA25036; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:45:28 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:45:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709110645.AAA25036@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Lee Crites (AEI)" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? In-Reply-To: References: <199709100413.VAA09804@usr04.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Lee Crites writes: > So far, from my experience only, most people just want to *use* > the system. You're close, but the distinction is important. *Everyone* begins to customize their system eventually, but they want it to "just work" straight out of the box. Microsoft has this covered fairly well; you install Win95 and it actually can run an application. It's when you attempt to customize it to work the way you want to that it begins to chafe. The important message here for those who want to make FreeBSD more acceptable to the unwashed masses is that the optimal environment is not a necessity "out of the box," just a reasonable working default. XFree86 is particularly bad about this, but getting better. Requiring people to learn what kind of graphics card they have before downloading just won't work; you need to provide some reasonable minimum system and then let them "upgrade" or "enhance" it. A generic SVGA server at 1024x768x8bpp would probably fit this requirement nicely these days. I think this would have to be a centerpiece of any "commercialized" or "productized" FreeBSD aimed at the Win95, or even WinNT, crowd. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 05:23:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA17977 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA17972 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709111218.IAA12377@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:26:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Congrats. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Congrats on your new daughter Luigi. Will her first language be Italian or C? Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net Abusenet: The Misinformation Superhighway From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 08:10:31 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26867 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26861 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04395; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:10:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:10:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199709111510.JAA04395@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Greg Lehey Cc: Stephen McKay , Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: At Large In-Reply-To: <19970911121058.49596@lemis.com> References: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> <199709101528.JAA29362@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709110144.LAA04491@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> <19970911121058.49596@lemis.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey writes: > On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 11:44:23AM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > > On Wednesday, 10th September 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > > > >> 386BSD didn't exist until early '92, so including 1991 in this is still wrong. Careful with your quotes, David said the above. I said that Hannum didn't contribute to the patchkit, (at least any of the versions I did.) Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 09:23:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01462 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adam.adonai.net (adam.adonai.net [207.8.83.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01457 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (leec@localhost) by adam.adonai.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA23088; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:23:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:23:11 -0500 (CDT) From: "Lee Crites (AEI)" To: Wes Peters cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? In-Reply-To: <199709110645.AAA25036@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: =>Lee Crites writes: => > So far, from my experience only, most people just want to *use* => > the system. => =>You're close, but the distinction is important. *Everyone* begins to =>customize their system eventually, but they want it to "just work" =>straight out of the box. Microsoft has this covered fairly well; you This is an important point, and yes, I didn't make that clear of a distinction on it. =>install Win95 and it actually can run an application. It's when you =>attempt to customize it to work the way you want to that it begins to =>chafe. "chafe?" Mine died a sad and ignominious death... (of course a big part of that might be the Packard Bell PC I have Microsnot Windoze 95 attempting to run on) =>XFree86 is particularly bad about this, but getting better. Requiring =>people to learn what kind of graphics card they have before downloading =>just won't work; you need to provide some reasonable minimum system and This is exactly why I *don't* have X running on my server. It started asking me questions which I had no clue about. I'm sitting there, with the hardware documentation in hand, mind you, and could not answer a bunch of the questions. Questions which I had never been asked about before or since. So when I reinstalled, X was not a part of it. =>then let them "upgrade" or "enhance" it. A generic SVGA server at =>1024x768x8bpp would probably fit this requirement nicely these days. Perhaps even a couple of options to select from. I'd love the 1024x768 resolution, but some of my users cannot handle the small icons and such. =>I think this would have to be a centerpiece of any "commercialized" or =>"productized" FreeBSD aimed at the Win95, or even WinNT, crowd. I agree. But since I'm not one of the development types, I can't yell too loudly. With everything said and done, I am as happy with my fbsd system as I have been with *any* system I have ever had. My personal wish-list isn't that terribly long. Lee From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 16:10:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02538 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02523 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 16:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA16731; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:40:30 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970912084029.17764@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:40:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nate Williams Cc: Stephen McKay , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: At Large References: <199709090409.VAA13111@implode.root.com> <199709100735.RAA19463@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> <199709101528.JAA29362@rocky.mt.sri.com> <199709110144.LAA04491@troll.dtir.qld.gov.au> <19970911121058.49596@lemis.com> <199709111510.JAA04395@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199709111510.JAA04395@rocky.mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 09:10:09AM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 09:10:09AM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 11:44:23AM +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: >>> On Wednesday, 10th September 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > >>> >>>> 386BSD didn't exist until early '92, so including 1991 in this is still wrong. > > > Careful with your quotes, David said the above. I said that Hannum > didn't contribute to the patchkit, (at least any of the versions I > did.) My sincerest apologies. But I didn't do the quoting, mutt did. How did that happen? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 18:08:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15039 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15028 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA17363; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:38:05 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970912103805.11305@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:38:05 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Lee Crites (AEI)" Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Do you have some neat configuration files? References: <199709110645.AAA25036@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Lee Crites (AEI) on Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 11:23:11AM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 11:23:11AM -0500, Lee Crites (AEI) wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Sep 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > > =>XFree86 is particularly bad about this, but getting better. Requiring > =>people to learn what kind of graphics card they have before downloading > =>just won't work; you need to provide some reasonable minimum system and > > This is exactly why I *don't* have X running on my server. It > started asking me questions which I had no clue about. I'm > sitting there, with the hardware documentation in hand, mind you, > and could not answer a bunch of the questions. Questions which I > had never been asked about before or since. So when I > reinstalled, X was not a part of it. Have you ever tried to install a custom board on a Microsoft machine? I failed, anyway. As for installing X, grab ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/cfbsd/08-xsetup.ps.gz and tell me what's wrong with that. > =>then let them "upgrade" or "enhance" it. A generic SVGA server at > =>1024x768x8bpp would probably fit this requirement nicely these days. > > Perhaps even a couple of options to select from. I'd love the > 1024x768 resolution, but some of my users cannot handle the small > icons and such. Well, it's a good thing you're not aiming for a hi-res screen, then :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 18:12:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15385 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15376 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA09194; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:09:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Terry Lambert cc: dgy@rtd.com (Don Yuniskis), dufault@hda.com, leec@adam.adonai.net, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, jamil@counterintelligence.ml.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Realtime Programming Under FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:06:55 -0000." <199709112106.OAA10561@usr03.primenet.com> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:09:42 -0700 Message-ID: <9190.874026582@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That's all right... just hand him your wallet and any jewelry > > you happen to have... > > Be quick about it, and no one gets hurt, understand? "Give me your brains or I'll blow your money out." From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 18:26:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16423 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seagull.rtd.com (dgy@seagull.rtd.com [198.102.68.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16412 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dgy@localhost) by seagull.rtd.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17804; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:25:11 -0700 (MST) From: Don Yuniskis Message-Id: <199709120125.SAA17804@seagull.rtd.com> Subject: Re: Realtime Programming Under FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <9190.874026582@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Sep 11, 97 06:09:42 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:25:11 -0700 (MST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dgy@rtd.com, dufault@hda.com, leec@adam.adonai.net, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, jamil@counterintelligence.ml.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In the words of the world-renowned author, Jordan K. Hubbard: > > > That's all right... just hand him your wallet and any jewelry > > > you happen to have... > > > > Be quick about it, and no one gets hurt, understand? > > "Give me your brains or I'll blow your money out." Robber: "Put up your hands; this is a fuckup!" Victim: "Don't you mean 'stickup'?" Robber: "No, 'fuckup' -- I forgot my gun!" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 20:06:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23884 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23878 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00695 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:34:46 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709120234.MAA00695@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Doug Rabson. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Sep 1997 11:30:47 MST." <199709111830.LAA15114@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:34:44 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I haven't heard from Doug since June 3. > > Has anyone any information as to what happenned to him? First Mike Pritchard, now Doug Rabson. Someone is picking off FreeBSD developers. 8( mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 20:55:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28060 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peeper.my.domain ([208.128.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28055 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tom@localhost) by peeper.my.domain (8.8.7/8.7.3) id WAA01601; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:52:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19970911225256.12801@my.domain> Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:52:56 -0500 From: Tom Jackson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial References: <19970906032624.26281@my.domain> <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> <19970906204232.60650@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970906204232.60650@wakky.dyn.ml.org>; from Lee Cremeans on Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 08:42:32PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 08:42:32PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 03:15:17PM +0200, Wolfgang Helbig wrote: > > > Check out News & Views section in the Oct copy of ddj. It will ring your > > > bell! > > > > What is ddj? > > I would guess Dr. Dobb's Journal. > Yes, I'm sorry, it is. The snippet gives kudos to FreeBSD, using Walnut Creek and Yahoo as shining examples of its power and efficiency but then goes on to lament the possible conspiracy of Gates Wm and Intel with I20 to squeeze out people such as us on x86 systems. God forbid. Tom ps BTW what does c't mean? From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 22:09:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03168 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@1Cust153.tnt1.manassas.va.da.uu.net [153.37.113.153]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03157 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.5/8.8.3) id BAA02559; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19970912010929.22227@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:09:29 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Tom Jackson , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Testimonial Reply-To: hcremean@vt.edu References: <19970906032624.26281@my.domain> <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> <19970906204232.60650@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <19970911225256.12801@my.domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970911225256.12801@my.domain>; from Tom Jackson on Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 10:52:56PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 10:52:56PM -0500, Tom Jackson wrote: [about "ddj"] > Yes, I'm sorry, it is. The snippet gives kudos to FreeBSD, using Walnut > Creek and Yahoo as shining examples of its power and efficiency but then > goes on to lament the possible conspiracy of Gates Wm and Intel with I20 > to squeeze out people such as us on x86 systems. God forbid. Bah! (What exactly is I20, anyway? I saw some talk about it on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, but...) > ps BTW what does c't mean? c't is a German computer magazine, sort of like what Byte was in the old days I believe. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 22:13:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03543 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:13:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03532 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA01034; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:43:20 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19970912144320.25785@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:43:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Tom Jackson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: c't (was: Testimonial) References: <19970906032624.26281@my.domain> <199709061315.PAA25745@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> <19970906204232.60650@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <19970911225256.12801@my.domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19970911225256.12801@my.domain>; from Tom Jackson on Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 10:52:56PM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 10:52:56PM -0500, Tom Jackson wrote: > > ps BTW what does c't mean? Good question. It's the name of a German computer magazine, IMO one of the best in the world. I've subscribed to it for about 13 years, and I can't recall ever seeing an explanation of the name, but Computer Technology seems a good guess. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 11 22:42:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05436 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05417 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01324; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:10:10 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199709120510.PAA01324@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: hcremean@vt.edu cc: Tom Jackson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:09:29 -0400." <19970912010929.22227@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:10:07 +1000 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Bah! (What exactly is I20, anyway? I saw some talk about it on > comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, but...) See http://www.i2osig.org/ Basically, it's an yet another attempt to establish a proprietary hardware architecture with the express goal of screwing the little people. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 00:04:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11265 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11248 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA11519; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:04:12 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Doug Rabson. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:34:44 +1000." <199709120234.MAA00695@word.smith.net.au> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 00:04:12 -0700 Message-ID: <11516.874047852@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Actually, Mike Pritchard finally reported in with apologies for going missing so thoroughly. He says he'll be back sometime around the end of summer. Jordan > > I haven't heard from Doug since June 3. > > > > Has anyone any information as to what happenned to him? > > First Mike Pritchard, now Doug Rabson. Someone is picking off FreeBSD > developers. 8( > > mike > > From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 06:54:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA04645 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de [141.31.112.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA04628 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA26969; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:49:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wolfgang Helbig Message-Id: <199709121349.PAA26969@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: Testimonial In-Reply-To: <19970911225256.12801@my.domain> from Tom Jackson at "Sep 11, 97 10:52:56 pm" To: toj@gorilla.net (Tom Jackson) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:49:39 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 08:42:32PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 06, 1997 at 03:15:17PM +0200, Wolfgang Helbig wrote: > > > > Check out News & Views section in the Oct copy of ddj. It will ring your > > > > bell! > > > > > > What is ddj? > > > > I would guess Dr. Dobb's Journal. > > > Yes, I'm sorry, it is. The snippet gives kudos to FreeBSD, using Walnut > Creek and Yahoo as shining examples of its power and efficiency but then > goes on to lament the possible conspiracy of Gates Wm and Intel with I20 > to squeeze out people such as us on x86 systems. God forbid. > > Tom > > ps BTW what does c't mean? ``computer technik'', a monthly computer magazine with broad coverage of different systems, among others *BSD: Lars Köller, Andreas Klemm, If you're going to San Francisco, Die freien BSD-Varianten von Unix, c't 4/97, S. 368 Andreas Klemm, Vom PC zur Workstation, Die neue Version 2.2.1 von FreeBSD, c't 6/97, S. 276 The URL is http://www.heise.de. In the "News" there is a little note about an AMD K6 bug. (causing gcc crash on about one out of ten Linux-Kernel-Compilation. It only happens if you have more then 32MB of RAM. It does not show on play systems like M$-OSs.) Wolfgang From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 06:55:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA04719 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA04711 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Journey2.mat.net (journey2.mat.net [206.246.122.116]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA23234; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 09:50:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@Journey2.mat.net To: hcremean@vt.edu cc: Tom Jackson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial In-Reply-To: <19970912010929.22227@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 10:52:56PM -0500, Tom Jackson wrote: > > [about "ddj"] > > > Yes, I'm sorry, it is. The snippet gives kudos to FreeBSD, using Walnut > > Creek and Yahoo as shining examples of its power and efficiency but then > > goes on to lament the possible conspiracy of Gates Wm and Intel with I20 > > to squeeze out people such as us on x86 systems. God forbid. > > Bah! (What exactly is I20, anyway? I saw some talk about it on > comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc, but...) > > > ps BTW what does c't mean? > > c't is a German computer magazine, sort of like what Byte was in the old > days I believe. And if they'd just come out in translation, from what I've heard, they sure sell one whale of a lot of copies in the US. I'd buy them. > > -- > Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) > A! JW223 YWD++^i WK+++r P&B++ SL++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did > $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac Ee34/1/36 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu > FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) > My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 10:50:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22892 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22866 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id TAA08415; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:50:42 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id TAA16019; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:35:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970912193518.HZ51399@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:35:18 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jamil@counterintelligence.ml.org (Jamil J. Weatherbee) Subject: Re: Interpreter compilers References: <199709100221.MAA00790@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Jamil J. Weatherbee on Sep 10, 1997 23:54:59 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jamil J. Weatherbee wrote: > And I'll add that my experience with TCL/TK suggests that tcl is more > useful --- only my opinion, but I am fiercly antiperl. Which of course makes you an ideal judge. No. If you're biased, don't try to justify about the usefulness of things you're biased against. This can't work. I'm slightly biased towards Perl myself, but have also been using Tcl/Tk, and i dare say both have their good and weak points. There's no such thing like ``The Universal Programming Language'', so simply get used to the idea that different problems can often be solved more effectively with different tools. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 13:31:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06368 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (bsdhack@shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06054 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from bsdhack@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id XAA26501; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:16:26 +0300 (EET DST) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199709122016.XAA26501@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: ATTN Emacs users; new Zile release In-Reply-To: <19970912114631.11048@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> from John-Mark Gurney at "Sep 12, 97 11:46:31 am" To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:16:26 +0300 (EET DST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk i think this should go to chat now... > I can't use emacs... I can't remeber if the exit and save is C-x C-c or > C-c C-x... I could use vi better the first time I used it than I could > emacs... maybe we need advocacy@freebsd.org? :p blaah, that's not too hard... what's hard is to remember, for me, is to remember if i use uemacs or emacs, since on some machines i have uemacs, on some emacs... for those who dont know, emacs exits and saves with same key-set than uemacs just exist and _doesnt_ save. i've shot myself to leg with that multiple times lately... and while we talk about things one does after first installation, well, i do 'export EDITOR=uemacs', no one should be using vi anyway... back in feb 93 when i was introduced to unix (freebsd!) all i was told was "this is unix, type 'emacs' to write something like emails and stuff, trn for news, just read the netetiquette first..." rest i had to basicly snoop out by myself. uh, year later i ran a server... those were the times. *sigh* for the record, the introduction happened in a tech college a mile away from other college where linus was at that time, and no, my college didnt support _that_ os _at_ _all_! =) mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 14:51:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12147 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12123 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA11697 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:51:45 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA16780; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:41:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970912234129.JP01350@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:41:29 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Doug Rabson. References: <199709120234.MAA00695@word.smith.net.au> <11516.874047852@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <11516.874047852@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sep 12, 1997 00:04:12 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Actually, Mike Pritchard finally reported in with apologies for > going missing so thoroughly. He says he'll be back sometime around > the end of summer. Good news. Did he also mention _which_ summer? :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 15:21:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14057 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14049 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 4333 on Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:20:57 GMT; id WAA04333 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA01125; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:14:30 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970913001430.20979@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:14:30 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial References: <19970912010929.22227@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 09:50:48AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Robey shared with us: > On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 11, 1997 at 10:52:56PM -0500, Tom Jackson wrote: > > > > > ps BTW what does c't mean? > > > > c't is a German computer magazine, sort of like what Byte was in the old > > days I believe. It's something like the phonebook of one of the more rural phone districts in the Netherlands, but then every month. Hundreds of pages of information - and advertisements, of course. Indeed, it looks like Byte in the old days, even bigger. Byte has become quite pathetic, I must say. No mayor manufacturer had an advertisement in it the last time I looked. It's small, it's not very interesting, it's on the brink of extinction. A sad thing, if that were to happen. I'm not sure, but I think c't means something like 'Computer-Technik' - though they'd normally say 'Komputer'. Perhaps I should check. I believe I have an ancient one with staples lying around somewhere. It had a review of MS Windows 1.0, GEM and TopView, plus a very interesting article on Fourier transformation. Code examples were in Turbo Pascal and Basic. :) > And if they'd just come out in translation, from what I've heard, they > sure sell one whale of a lot of copies in the US. I'd buy them. You could also learn German. :) You'd only have get to get used to the rather typical German habit of translating every computer- related word. Ah, well, actually the French even more translate every single word. Come to think of it, only the Dutch don't do this. :) Anyway, the magazine is possibly worth it. - Peter P.S. I read today that Bill Gates finished his dream house. It contains a whole load of technical gadgets, like large TV screens that show your favourite art, movie or whatever. The images move along with you as you move trough the house. Just wondering, would you have your house run NT? From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 20:08:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29044 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29039 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09628; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22701; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:09:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:09:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: hoek@hwcn.org To: Peter Korsten cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial In-Reply-To: <19970913001430.20979@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > Just wondering, would you have your house run NT? > "It's 3 o'clock in the morning; do you know where the source code to _your_ house is?" ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 12 20:09:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29086 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29081 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA05124; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:09:04 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Doug Rabson. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:41:29 +0200." <19970912234129.JP01350@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:09:04 -0700 Message-ID: <5121.874120144@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk No, strange. :-) > As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Actually, Mike Pritchard finally reported in with apologies for > > going missing so thoroughly. He says he'll be back sometime around > > the end of summer. > > Good news. Did he also mention _which_ summer? :-) > > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 13 04:28:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA00322 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA00317 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 04:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous233.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.233]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06750; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:25:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id NAA00699; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:23:11 +0200 (MET DST) To: Peter Korsten Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial References: <19970912010929.22227@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <19970913001430.20979@grendel.IAEhv.nl> From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 13 Sep 1997 13:23:08 +0200 In-Reply-To: Peter Korsten's message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 00:14:30 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 12 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Peter Korsten writes: > > > c't is a German computer magazine, sort of like what Byte was in the old > > > days I believe. > It's something like the phonebook of one of the more rural phone > districts in the Netherlands, but then every month. Hundreds of > pages of information - and advertisements, of course. The c't April issue (CeBIT) had 614 pages. Too big for many mailboxes. Since 13 October 1997 the c't will be published biweekly. -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 13 06:20:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA03745 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA03738 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id PAA21229 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:20:41 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA00582; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:13:23 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970913151322.NK52478@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:13:22 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial References: <19970912010929.22227@wakky.dyn.ml.org> <19970913001430.20979@grendel.IAEhv.nl> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <19970913001430.20979@grendel.IAEhv.nl>; from Peter Korsten on Sep 13, 1997 00:14:30 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Peter Korsten wrote: > I'm not sure, but I think c't means something like 'Computer-Technik' > - though they'd normally say 'Komputer'. Perhaps I should check. No German i've ever seen would spell it with a K. > You could also learn German. :) You'd only have get to get used to > the rather typical German habit of translating every computer- > related word. Hey, c'mon. The slavic languages translate way more stuff. :-) Or at least, they spell it how it's spoken. One of the weirst things i've seen 10 years ago was the Russian spelling of BASIC. German is now actually swamped by English vocabulary, not only in the computer language. It's already beginning to be embarassing, and English is quite often now called `Neudeutsch'. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 13 07:04:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05417 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05411 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA14972; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:04:02 -0700 (PDT) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 13 Sep 1997 15:13:22 +0200." <19970913151322.NK52478@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:04:02 -0700 Message-ID: <14968.874159442@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > seen 10 years ago was the Russian spelling of BASIC. German is now > actually swamped by English vocabulary, not only in the computer > language. It's already beginning to be embarassing, and English is > quite often now called `Neudeutsch'. That's actually pretty funny considering how much english (American english, anyway) is populated with German words from all the German immigrants in the early 20th century. It's gotten even worse since I got back, with some americans still going around shouting "fahrvergnugen!" at one another. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 13 09:20:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12069 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12059 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id SAA23445 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:20:14 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA00969; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:56:56 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19970913175656.IH17993@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:56:56 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial References: <19970913151322.NK52478@uriah.heep.sax.de> <14968.874159442@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <14968.874159442@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sep 13, 1997 07:04:02 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It's gotten even worse since I > got back, with some americans still going around shouting > "fahrvergnugen!" at one another. ;-) Hehe, why should you get it better than we? Albeit, the American pronounciation of `Volkswagen' is really funny to hear for a German... Let alone the unability of 98 % of the Americans to speak the `u umlaut' from `fahrvergnuegen', i think they've just made it an `u' in the commercial then, which of course sounds terrible enough as well... (Well, last time i've visited Poul-Henning, Rita finally got it how to speak `Joerg'. :-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 13 12:16:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21486 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21477 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 26551 on Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:16:35 GMT; id TAA26551 efrom: peter@grendel.IAEhv.nl; eto: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from peter@localhost) by grendel.IAEhv.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA00491; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:55:56 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19970913125555.17592@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:55:55 +0200 From: Peter Korsten To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Testimonial References: <19970913001430.20979@grendel.IAEhv.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.67e In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Fri, Sep 12, 1997 at 11:09:13PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tim Vanderhoek shared with us: > On Sat, 13 Sep 1997, Peter Korsten wrote: > > > Just wondering, would you have your house run NT? > > "It's 3 o'clock in the morning; do you know where the source code > to _your_ house is?" ;-) Or perhaps only five people can be in the house at one time, because you don't have enough licences. Ah, now I know why the house was so expensive. Not because of the technology, but because of the licences for all of the 100 people that fit in the dining room. HACKERS BRING DOWN BILL GATES' HOUSE Microsoft spokesperson declares that bug fix will be made available on short notice MS House, consisting of the packages MS Walls, MS Roof, MS Doors, and, of course, ... :) - Peter From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 13 18:18:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10705 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10659; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:16:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199709140116.SAA10659@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Testimonial To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14968.874159442@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Sep 13, 97 07:04:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > That's actually pretty funny considering how much english (American > english, anyway) is populated with German words from all the German > immigrants in the early 20th century. It's gotten even worse since I > got back, with some americans still going around shouting > "fahrvergnugen!" at one another. ;-) well, its about time that english gave back to all the other languages that its has stolen and bastardized over the years. fahrvergnugen? hmmm...make that "funk 'n grooving" jmb