From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 15:21:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20949 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:21:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20938 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:21:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA06438; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:21:27 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA03138; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:04:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971013000451.LV23362@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:04:51 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: jraynard@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard), phk@critter.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Subject: Re: src/contrib/awk References: <19971012204507.42473@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <15371.876689046@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <15371.876689046@critter.freebsd.dk>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Oct 12, 1997 22:44:06 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk (Moved to -chat, but kept phk and James in the Cc since i'm not sure whether they are subscribed.) As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > "The pointed hat" is a purely metaphysical instrument which is > usually requested rather than imposed, signalling the abrubt > conclusion of an unexpected learning experience. Well, James, see Satoshi's followup posting where he proudly presented his collection of these hats. Or, see my occasional prodding of people towards using easy-install. The reason i wrote this script was simply that i've botched *three* CVS imports in sequence when starting with FreeBSD. Really, three of them. One had the wrong sources imported, one had the wrong target directory (thereby causing a new CVS repository being created), i eventually forgot about the third one. I then decided that `cvs import' was the biggest mess i've ever seen, and i should really get something preventing me from repeating these mistakes. Ok, i also went for a little lazy-people-friendliness (like the TAB filename completion). > Certain old hands (which shall remained unnamed here) seem to have > cached copies for faster access. *ROTFL* Perhaps i should ask Martin Welk whether Liebscher & Co (remember, the guys organizing the daemon plushies) would also be able to provide for yellow, pointy hats? But i'm afraid the shipping costs are worse than the fun value is. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 16:47:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28601 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from punt-1.mail.demon.net (punt-1b.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28594 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jraynard@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by punt-1.mail.demon.net id aa1412695; 13 Oct 97 0:35 BST Received: (from jraynard@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00908; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:25:33 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jraynard) Message-ID: <19971013002533.44723@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:25:33 +0100 From: James Raynard To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, peter@netplex.com.au, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: src/contrib/awk References: <19971012204507.42473@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <15371.876689046@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <15371.876689046@critter.freebsd.dk>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Sun, Oct 12, 1997 at 10:44:06PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, Oct 12, 1997 at 10:44:06PM +0200, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > "The pointed hat" is a purely metaphysical instrument which is > usually requested rather than imposed, signalling the abrubt > conclusion of an unexpected learning experience. Yes, I know (having received it for my very first commit, a one-liner which broke 'make world' at a very early stage). It wasn't actually that I was annoyed about, but let's not dwell on that... Anyway, I propose to adopt the following penances: 1. To stick to correcting typos, for a length of time to be determined by the core team. 2. Not to post any more Deep Purple lyrics. :-) -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 17:53:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02548 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:53:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02485 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:52:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18553; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20934; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:52:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:52:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: Terry Lambert cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hoek@hwcn.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fnord0: disabled, not probed. In-Reply-To: <199710130007.RAA02182@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Terry Lambert wrote: > So would the combined annoyance of its existance copuled with the > annoyance of not shutting it up when it's possible to kludge it to > shut it up be enought to put it over the "do something significant > about it" threshold? > > How about combining both of those with discussions like this one? 8-) 8-) 8-). But then what would we spend our Thanksgiving weekends arguing over!? [dev]fs design? Ugh! Yuck! ;-) Naw, these discussions are counter-incentive. If you really wanted to add incentive, you'd be quiet and just agree! [Well, Thanksgiving weekend over here, anyways...] -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 18:42:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05668 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:42:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05662 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:42:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA08173; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:46:02 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:46:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: sfuqua@pulsar.cs.wku.edu (Stephen Fuqua) CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course In-Reply-To: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> References: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen Fuqua writes: > I'm writing a short paper as part of my MS comparing BSD with Linux and > Minix for use in an undergraduate operating systems course. The idea > would be to compare these systems in terms of using them for a class some > C programming and some simple kernel programming exercises like adding a > pseudo device or a "do-nothing" system call, and some code reading. > > At this point I see one big difference between Minix and the other two > systems, Minix's source code is tiny compared to BSD or Linux. The author > has intentionally kept it simple. Minix also differs in that it is a > microkernel. While minix is less intimidating in terms of size, finding > ones way around the Linux and BSD source is pretty easy too. Other than > size, I've run some different complexity measures on the code in all three > systems, and it doesn't look like I'm going to find any significant > differences in the amount of comments, length of functions, cyclomatic > complexity, etc between the three, despite what one might expect based on > their backgrounds. All three are easy to install on supported hardware > for people who read directions; Linux(Redhat) and BSD(Freebsd) are have > colorful, easy to follow menu based install programs. While people have > ported some of software to Minix -- both Linux and BSD come with huge > selections of easily installed, ported software. There is no great > difference in performance between BSD and Linux. Minix is the only choice > for people stuck with 286's, both BSD and Linux run on a huge variety of > pc hardware for 386's on up. While it is difficult to find hard numbers > -- it appears that clear Linux has the largest user base, BSD is second, > and Minix last. Minix comes with an excellent textbook. Linux has a > wealth of documentation for beginners, but this documentation is uneven in > quality. BSD has the best in depth, advanced documentation, the system > manuals from O'Reilly, the _Source Code Secrets_ series, and the _Design > and Implementation_ book. Both BSD and Linux are full fledged varieties > of Unix, capable of holding their own against commercial versions of Unix. > Users who have experience with System V may feel slightly more at home > with Linux, while FreeBSD *is* BSD unix. > > Have I missed anything, or been unfair anywhere? > steve fuqua At first blush, your summation seems fair. Lets lay it out in table form and see how they stack up. I'll add any I think of at the end of the table. You can then apply weighting as you see fit; I'll suggest some, based on various criteria. Feature FreeBSD Linux Minix Small code size * Easy install * * Software selection * * Performance * * Textbooks *** * So far, we've got Minix with small code size and a textbook available. Linux gets points for easy installation, software selection, and performance, all attributes it shares with FreeBSD. FreeBSD I gave three stars for textbooks because of the number and quality of the textbooks available. I did not give Linux a star in the category because I am not aware of a textbook quality treatise on the design of the Linux kernel, suitable for an advanced undergrad OS course. FreeBSD gets three due to the "Design..." book, the Stevens TCP/IP series, and the O'Reilly and Dr. Dobbs series. I could probably come up with more if you want, but I think you see my point: FreeBSD is more suitable for study than Linux because more textbooks have been developed around it (and its parents, of course). And, for my contribution: Programming languages *** ** Linux gets two stars because it supports most of the "important" languages, including (of course) C and C++, Lisp, Perl, Tk/Tcl, etc. FreeBSD gets three stars because it supports most languages of any type, including Modula-3, Fortran, Ada, Sather, Eiffel, etc. I realize that many of these can perhaps be made for Linux without too much effort, but this effort has already been done on FreeBSD, which seems to be the UNIX of choice for language people these days. Or at least the FREE UNIX of choice. Minix, last I checked, has C and as. (Bleh!) As you can see, Linux would be a good choice from an operational standpoint, and Minix from a class textbook standpoint, but FreeBSD excels at both. I welcome contrasting viewpoints, not that I'm likely to find any here. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 19:48:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08865 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:48:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from earth.mat.net (root@earth.mat.net [206.246.122.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08850 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:48:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by earth.mat.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA23482; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:46:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@localhost To: Wes Peters cc: Stephen Fuqua , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course In-Reply-To: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > At first blush, your summation seems fair. Lets lay it out in table > form and see how they stack up. I'll add any I think of at the end of > the table. You can then apply weighting as you see fit; I'll suggest > some, based on various criteria. > > > Feature FreeBSD Linux Minix > > Small code size * > > Easy install * * > > Software selection * * > > Performance * * > > Textbooks *** * I think that's a little slanted. I would never, ever run Linux myself, but I try really hard not to show prejudice. First thing that has to leap out of that comparison above is that there are large amounts of very friendly Linux books out there, and not so for FreeBSD. Not knocking Greg's nice book, but as one of a genre, it's lonely for company. FreeBSD's books do tend to be more technical and academic in nature, pointed more towards someone who wants to learn and not just toy around with it, and I could easily stand by that remark, I think. There isn't any Linux book comparable to the 4.4BSD Operating System, for instance, but neither has FreeBSD got it's own friendly O'Reilly book. What does O'Reilly publich instead? The man pages (all the ref manuals and the user's guides, etc). I think it would be best to comment on the level of professional points. Linux is pointed towards hackers more, and FreeBSD more towards the folks who want to make money or have a defined goal. Linux's development is relatively splintered, which allows nearly the whole world in on it, at the loss of control or cohesiveness. It's not out of control, per se, but when you compare it to FreeBSD's far more tight control, well, yes, it is. This means that Linux is more likely to have a driver for every new device that hits the market. FreeBSD is more likely to have drivers that are high end and high capability, but less widely used. One last point that no one has raised is the attitude of compatibility. Linux has gone some ways down the road that SCO took, allowing the lure of added features to stealthily attack compatibility. It hasn't gone too terribly far (it's not out of control) but that's the way it's headed. Far more use of GNU. While that's not bad, it definitely is the direction of less compatibility. GNU, after all, is trying (with HURD) to actually make a major bend in the direction of unix OSs. Not non-unix, but distinctly different. The reasoning is that new features will make this better. Wasn't that SCO's reasoning also? Do you like info pages? Or maybe Guile? That's the direction things are going with Linux. It's after all a kernel only that Linus writes, not a whole OS. I'm afraid maybe some of my own prejudice is apparent here, but I couldn't let the stuff about docs pass uncommented. > And, for my contribution: > > Programming languages *** ** Oh, yeah. Aren't most of those languages you're talking about available on Linux? I maybe be wrong here, but most of the lanuguages I've ported have had to have modifications from previously released, author supplied ports (I often use a base of a sun port, that's usually one of the author-supplied ones) but I always notice lately that there's a Linux port from the author too. Getting to be a fair collection of there with a native FreeBSD port too (like, for instance, kaffe), but I think maybe Linux has the edge here, at least from my porting experience. > I welcome contrasting viewpoints, not that I'm likely to find any here. Huh ! > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@eng.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 19:52:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09115 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:52:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09110 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:52:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA07224; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:51:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fnord0: disabled, not probed. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:52:11 EDT." Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:51:35 -0700 Message-ID: <7221.876711095@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > [Well, Thanksgiving weekend over here, anyways...] What are you giving thanks for in October? :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 19:59:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09417 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09412 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:58:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-245.konnections.com (ip185-245.konnections.com [207.173.185.245]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA18911; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:55:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-245.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD751.A61E2ED0@ip185-245.konnections.com>; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:58:53 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD751.A61E2ED0@ip185-245.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Stephen Fuqua , "'Wes Peters'" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:58:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA09413 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes & Stephen: I have seen a feww good textbook like discussions of LINUX from the kernel out, but I think there are a couple of other discussions that would sway me, though I use LINUX the most.... Most of use used MINIX as our personal introduction to UNIX where we didn't have mini computers at home to play with. But, while MINIX is an educational tool, it is an educational tool. As a sample of a UNIX - like operating system it is excellent and a well prepared whole. As a sample of a real world answer to a series of operational problems, it is untested and unapplied. Quite shortly, it is a model of an OS, not an OS. LINUX and *BSD (Free, 386, Net, what have you), are similar in many of their cross borrowings, but today's Linux is more like (and more of) *BSD than the original Linux. *BSD is the only of the three which has its roots in REAL UNIX. A good deal of what is useful in LINUX came from available BSD codes. Because of this, more OS textbooks focusing on UNIX applies to BSD than the others. I think, all of these points weigh in for *BSD as the best teaching choice AFTER MINIX, or an equivalent model OS. Of course, I used to teach Ayn Rand as English Literature...... -Mike Allison... ---------- From: Wes Peters Sent: Sunday, October 12, 1997 7:46 PM To: Stephen Fuqua Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course As you can see, Linux would be a good choice from an operational standpoint, and Minix from a class textbook standpoint, but FreeBSD excels at both. I welcome contrasting viewpoints, not that I'm likely to find any here. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 20:03:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09672 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09663 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:03:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01730; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06941; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:03:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:03:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fnord0: disabled, not probed. In-Reply-To: <7221.876711095@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [Well, Thanksgiving weekend over here, anyways...] > > What are you giving thanks for in October? :) Isn't a long weekend by itself reason to give thanks? :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 12 22:54:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20044 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:54:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au [130.194.166.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20038 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:54:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graeme@babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au) Received: from localhost (graeme@localhost) by babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13700; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:54:29 +1000 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:54:29 +1000 (EST) From: Graeme Cross Reply-To: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au To: Wes Peters cc: Stephen Fuqua , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course In-Reply-To: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: X-Attribution: gjc X-No-Archive: yes X-No-Junk-Mail: Do not send me junk mail under any circumstances X-PGP-Key-ID: 702DB549 X-URI: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > So far, we've got Minix with small code size and a textbook available. > Linux gets points for easy installation, software selection, and > performance, all attributes it shares with FreeBSD. FreeBSD I gave > three stars for textbooks because of the number and quality of the > textbooks available. I did not give Linux a star in the category > because I am not aware of a textbook quality treatise on the design of > the Linux kernel, suitable for an advanced undergrad OS course. One possible contender is: LINUX Kernel Internals Beck, Michael & Bohme, Harold & Mirko, Dziadzka & Kunitz, Ulrich & Magnus, Robert & Verworner, Dick; Addison Wesley; 1996; ISBN: 0-201-87741-4; 480pp. A guide to Linux kernel programming; covers 1.2, slightly out of date now. > Programming languages *** ** > > Linux gets two stars because it supports most of the "important" > languages, including (of course) C and C++, Lisp, Perl, Tk/Tcl, etc. > FreeBSD gets three stars because it supports most languages of any type, > including Modula-3, Fortran, Ada, Sather, Eiffel, etc. I realize that > many of these can perhaps be made for Linux without too much effort, but > this effort has already been done on FreeBSD, which seems to be the UNIX > of choice for language people these days. Or at least the FREE UNIX of > choice. Minix, last I checked, has C and as. (Bleh!) > I am aware of high quality Fortran, Ada and Eiffel products that are commercially available for Linux, as well as free implementations of all of the above. There was an extensive article about Modula-3 in the Linux Journal sometime in the last year or two as well. Cheers Graeme - -- Graeme Cross Water Studies Centre, Monash University http://www.wsc.monash.edu.au/~graeme/ Random thought #62 It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Auto-signed by PPG (v1.01) (the PGP/PINE gateway) iQB1AwUBNEG3i2AiycRwLbVJAQFt2QL/aPBrrlTSK2038pxok6qlscvSIFVssNAY pVooMHXSsOdGMQCynkT/LsV8xhZFVTkqpKiL+NksrmR5BizBoKtVujV6dvNmFCoX YI+4ilzUjk3bzAMuZ7BqdQjCnjh+Dys4 =BTvb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 00:18:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25777 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shadows.aeon.net (shadows.aeon.net [194.100.41.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25752 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bsdcvs@shadows.aeon.net) Received: (from bsdcvs@localhost) by shadows.aeon.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) id KAA17070 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:13:53 +0200 (EET) From: mika ruohotie Message-Id: <199710130813.KAA17070@shadows.aeon.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/release/sysinstall disks.c install.c installUpgrade.c label.c sysinstall.h variable.c src/releas In-Reply-To: <199710121621.JAA23485@freefall.freebsd.org> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Oct 12, 97 09:21:38 am" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:13:53 +0200 (EET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > These changes just allowed me to do the most straight-forward new disk > installation I've ever managed with sysinstall. whoah, how dissapointing... really, are you saying you're not using the good old 'plug-it-in', 'emacs /tmp/file', 'fdisk -f /tmp/file', 'disklabel -B -r -w sd? auto', 'disklabel -e sd?' method? not only you're saying that, but you also saying it's not what you want the users to do? hey, we shouldnt make it too easy, right? (for the record, i _love_ a good adventure when i install new drives) =))))))))))))))))))))))) (yeah, monday morning, here i am) mickey From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 00:18:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25817 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:18:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from schizo.dk.tfs.com (mail.trw.dk [195.8.133.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25808 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.dk.tfs.com [140.145.230.252]) by schizo.dk.tfs.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02398; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:17:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24670; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:05:13 +0200 (CEST) To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@freebsd.org, jraynard@jraynard.demon.co.uk (James Raynard) Subject: Re: src/contrib/awk In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:04:51 +0200." <19971013000451.LV23362@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:05:13 +0200 Message-ID: <24668.876726313@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Poul-Henning Kamp Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In message <19971013000451.LV23362@uriah.heep.sax.de>, J Wunsch writes: >Perhaps i should ask Martin Welk whether Liebscher & Co (remember, the >guys organizing the daemon plushies) would also be able to provide for >yellow, pointy hats? But i'm afraid the shipping costs are worse than >the fun value is. I have more than once thought about having a batch made of stiff paper so that they could be mailed cheaply. Part of the punishment would then be to figure out the written Danish instructions for how to assemble the thing :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 00:49:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27535 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from elmira.functional.com (grail@elmira.functional.com [198.82.216.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27530 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grail@elmira.functional.com) Received: (from grail@localhost) by elmira.functional.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23925; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:49:44 GMT Message-ID: <19971013074944.05989@functional.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:49:44 +0000 From: Giao Nguyen To: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course References: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Graeme Cross on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 03:54:29PM +1000 Organization: FIS Technologies X-Saying: Maniacal laughter is the best medicine. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Graeme Cross said: > LINUX Kernel Internals > Beck, Michael & Bohme, Harold & Mirko, Dziadzka & Kunitz, > Ulrich & Magnus, Robert & Verworner, Dick; Addison Wesley; > 1996; ISBN: 0-201-87741-4; 480pp. > > A guide to Linux kernel programming; covers 1.2, slightly out > of date now. I just have to wonder about the current-ness of such an item. At the speed at which the Linux kernel moves, it's rather difficult to have anything standing still long enough to be documented. -- Giao Nguyen From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 01:25:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00144 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:25:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de [141.31.112.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA00129 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from helbig@Informatik.BA-Stuttgart.DE) Received: (from helbig@localhost) by rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA28485; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:23:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Wolfgang Helbig Message-Id: <199710130823.KAA28485@rvc1.informatik.ba-stuttgart.de> Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course In-Reply-To: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Oct 12, 97 07:46:02 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:23:26 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: sfuqua@pulsar.cs.wku.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL30 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Stephen Fuqua writes: > > I'm writing a short paper as part of my MS comparing BSD with Linux and > > Minix for use in an undergraduate operating systems course. The idea > > would be to compare these systems in terms of using them for a class some > > C programming and some simple kernel programming exercises like adding a > > pseudo device or a "do-nothing" system call, and some code reading. > > > > Have I missed anything, or been unfair anywhere? > > steve fuqua > > At first blush, your summation seems fair. Lets lay it out in table > form and see how they stack up. I'll add any I think of at the end of > the table. You can then apply weighting as you see fit; I'll suggest > some, based on various criteria. > > > Feature FreeBSD Linux Minix > > Small code size * > > Easy install * * > > Software selection * * > > Performance * * > > Textbooks *** * > > Programming languages *** ** > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com Hmm, one issue is still missing here--for me the most important: FreeBSD supplies *buildable* source trees for the kernel (like Linux) *and* userland (unlike Linux) *and* most ports (unlike Linux, since they don't have ports). All source trees are carefully synchronized, easy installable and buildable out of the box. This makes it easy to really see whats going on (or wrong) on your system -- remember: You cannot understand the kernel source without understanding userland source and vice versa. Add easy access to the CVS repository, which lets you browse through previous versions of the source in question all the way back to 4.4BSD Lite. Scrutinizing the logs gives you the opportunity to learn why things are coded the way they are. If all works out as planned, the CVS repository will be supplied with FreeBSD 2.2.5. So I suggest to add Access to source trees *** * * Wolfgang From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 01:45:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02047 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02027 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA00896 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:12:11 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710130842.SAA00896@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: src/contrib/awk In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:05:13 +0200." <24668.876726313@critter.freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:12:11 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In message <19971013000451.LV23362@uriah.heep.sax.de>, J Wunsch writes: > > >Perhaps i should ask Martin Welk whether Liebscher & Co (remember, the > >guys organizing the daemon plushies) would also be able to provide for > >yellow, pointy hats? But i'm afraid the shipping costs are worse than > >the fun value is. > > I have more than once thought about having a batch made of stiff paper > so that they could be mailed cheaply. Part of the punishment would > then be to figure out the written Danish instructions for how to > assemble the thing :-) There's a mob just down the road from home that offer custom hats; they're a bit of a pretentious "colonial"-style outfit, but I wonder whether a pointy Akubra would be popular with local commitbunglers? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 01:51:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02463 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:51:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02446 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:50:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id KAA01619; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:50:48 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA02217; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:37:57 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971013083757.EE28400@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:37:57 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: brian@Awfulhak.org (Brian Somers) Subject: Re: Pass the hat please References: <15371.876689046@critter.freebsd.dk> <199710122158.WAA09785@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199710122158.WAA09785@awfulhak.demon.co.uk>; from Brian Somers on Oct 12, 1997 22:58:22 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Brian Somers wrote: > > It was yellow last I heard anything about it btw, and seems to spend > > a lot of time all over the place which rhymes well with Scotta Adams > > theory that most people are idiots at least 50% of the time. > > Perfect ! I think I deserve that hat up until release time for my > recent ppp efforts ! Oh, no, we aren't that quick with passing it. Just a single mistake that only affects one program is probably not enough. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 01:55:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02897 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:55:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02887 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 17907 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Oct 1997 08:28:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19971013102814.25573@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:28:14 +0200 From: braukmann@tse-online.de To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: smp@freebsd.org Subject: success and happiness ... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, A few months ago I put together a new 'personal workstation'. I've chosen: - Gigabyte 686DX (ATX) - PPro 200 (256kB Cache) * 2 (couldn't get the 166MHz/512kB here in Germany) - 128 MB RAM (FP) - AHA 2940AU - IBM DCAS 4.3GB * 2 (narrow) - + network and graphics, etc. The machine I've used before, was based on an ASUS T2P4 / P166 (other components were the same). The system gave reasonable performance for my unix-related work, but rather p***** me off as a real-slow-M$-NT-developer-machine. The new machine performs quite well under NT 4.0. Running FreeBSD/SMP the machine has a real chance to show its capabilities. Whow, ... it really flys along. ... much faster than it was supposed to. Concerning the success-stories about overclocking the PPros to 233 MHz I've tried that, too. In fact, I reset the clockspeed to 200 MHz a few weeks ago, because the performance at the lower speed is more than sufficient for my purposes. Thanks, ... many thanks to the BSD-Developer-Crowd ... especially to the SMP-folks. Regards, Andreas -- /// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter | /// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with /// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP /// ------------------------------------------------------------------- /// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key /// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 02:52:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA07485 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:52:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA07466 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 02:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id LAA02256 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:51:54 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA24381; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:21:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971013112151.GI37696@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:21:51 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: src/contrib/awk References: <19971013000451.LV23362@uriah.heep.sax.de> <24668.876726313@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <24668.876726313@critter.freebsd.dk>; from Poul-Henning Kamp on Oct 13, 1997 09:05:13 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > I have more than once thought about having a batch made of stiff paper > so that they could be mailed cheaply. Part of the punishment would Oh, great! Yes, do it! :) > then be to figure out the written Danish instructions for how to > assemble the thing :-) Hmm, i figure i'm probably not the one who'd have the worst difficulties with *this*. ;-) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 04:42:58 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA16423 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 04:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA16418 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 04:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id VAA19154; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:50:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma019150; Mon, 13 Oct 97 21:50:29 +1000 Received: from localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17994; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:42:22 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710131142.VAA17994@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> X-Authentication-Warning: ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au: localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: sfuqua@pulsar.cs.wku.edu (Stephen Fuqua) cc: Wes Peters cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course References: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> In-Reply-To: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:46:02 +0000" Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:42:21 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Stephen Fuqua writes: > > I'm writing a short paper as part of my MS comparing BSD with Linux and > > Minix for use in an undergraduate operating systems course. The idea > > would be to compare these systems in terms of using them for a class some > > C programming and some simple kernel programming exercises like adding a > > pseudo device or a "do-nothing" system call, and some code reading. > > > > At this point I see one big difference between Minix and the other two > > systems, Minix's source code is tiny compared to BSD or Linux. The author > > has intentionally kept it simple. Casting my mind back to my undergraduate OS course days, the most important aspect was simplicity, which roughly equates to size, or lack thereof. For study purposes, performance and ease of installation are unimportant. You need a system you can get your head around. You want your students to absorb some facts presumably through practical experimentation and not just theory. So, you should get the simplest device that shows some real world behaviour that they can play with, and usually break, but perhaps improve. I don't count adding a do-nothing system call as good enough. I would expect more, or not bother doing the course. At least I'd expect something along the lines of changing the scheduling policy or some paging or swapping policy. Our experiments with biasing disk priority along with CPU priority showed us how easy it is to make a total botch of things. :-) For our course, we used XINU and another homebaked microkernel (really not much more than a scheduler). These were simple enough to get your head around, and simple enough that we could easily find bits to improve. Part of the fun was writing a disk driver for some horrendously old PDP11 disk. Forget which one now, but I should have kept a souvenir. I recommend that you use Minix, together with its fine book. Linux or FreeBSD (well, you could guess which I really prefer) would be more appropriate as support tools in a compiler course, or web technology course, or whatever. Or for a year long postgrad OS research project. I think they are too complex for your average undergraduate with 20 other things on their mind. You want them to remember some of your course, not just marvel at how complex your props are. > > Have I missed anything, or been unfair anywhere? Or perhaps I've been unfair. I see a clear distinction between teaching students how to be OS users and teaching them how to be OS builders. I have assumed you want them to be OS builders. If I'm wrong, forget I was here. On Monday, 13th October 1997, Wes Peters wrote: >I welcome contrasting viewpoints, not that I'm likely to find any here. This is a little meta, but, don't you think we have a higher proportion of contrasting viewpoints over here in the FreeBSD camp than those other more fixated types? ;-) Stephen. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 10:02:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06914 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06907 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id RAA01682 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:16:04 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14456; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:58:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971013075848.09331@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:58:48 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://www.falconweb.com/~linuxrx/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html The author of the web page claims, that he is interested in corrections ... -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' andreas@klemm.gtn.com - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html andreas@FreeBSD.ORG - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 11:27:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12804 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:27:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12789 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:27:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA17171; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:25:52 -0700 (PDT) To: Andreas Klemm cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:58:48 +0200." <19971013075848.09331@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:25:52 -0700 Message-ID: <17167.876767152@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > http://www.falconweb.com/~linuxrx/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html > > The author of the web page claims, that he is interested in > corrections ... But probably not significant adjustments to what is clearly a significant degree of Linux bias. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 11:29:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12997 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:29:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12990 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA11980 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:29:41 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id UAA03379 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:28:43 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.11/nospam) id UAA09659; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:10:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971013201004.31970@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:10:04 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course References: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Graeme Cross on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 03:54:29PM +1000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3728 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Graeme Cross: > One possible contender is: > > LINUX Kernel Internals There is another one currently been translated into english from French. 3 friends of mine (including Rémy Card, the author of ext2fs) have written a book about the kernel internals for 2.0.x. It is as current as you can get on a Linux kernel book. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #36: Sat Oct 4 19:58:34 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 13:47:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21974 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:47:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from awfulhak.demon.co.uk (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21953 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24169; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:35:29 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199710131935.UAA24169@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@freebsd.org, brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers) Subject: Re: Pass the hat please In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:37:57 +0200." <19971013083757.EE28400@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:35:28 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Brian Somers wrote: > > > > It was yellow last I heard anything about it btw, and seems to spend > > > a lot of time all over the place which rhymes well with Scotta Adams > > > theory that most people are idiots at least 50% of the time. > > > > Perfect ! I think I deserve that hat up until release time for my > > recent ppp efforts ! > > Oh, no, we aren't that quick with passing it. Just a single mistake > that only affects one program is probably not enough. Awww. It would have been a bit of a corker if it made it onto the 2.2.5 CD ! Where I come from, we have a set of donkey-ears. They're worn by the person that inherits the most responsibility - normally the last person to desert the sinking ship. The receiver should understand implicitly that they really don't want to be there. I think I've just got both at work..... ! > -- > cheers, J"org > > joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE > Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 14:37:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25828 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25821 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA27535; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:36:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) From: jkb X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: <17167.876767152@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmm, I wonder if we should cc: linuxrx@www.falconweb.com and tell them that FreeBSD does support "Multiple CPU's" and pthreads. And the part about "most used for low-end workstation": Lets have FreeBSD Inc. sue them for public misinformation. -- Yan On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> http://www.falconweb.com/~linuxrx/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html >> >> The author of the web page claims, that he is interested in >> corrections ... > >But probably not significant adjustments to what is clearly a >significant degree of Linux bias. :-) > > Jordan > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 15:02:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27616 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27606 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27487; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:00:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id RAA23625; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:00:16 -0500 Message-ID: <19971013170015.39984@right.PCS> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:00:15 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: jkb Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page References: <17167.876767152@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from jkb on Oct 10, 1997 at 02:36:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 10, 1997 at 02:36:36PM -0700, jkb wrote: > I wonder if we should cc: linuxrx@www.falconweb.com and tell them > that FreeBSD does support "Multiple CPU's" and pthreads. And the part > about "most used for low-end workstation": Actually, I thought that FBSD was used more for high-end workstations, leaving the low-end segment to Linux. This would explain why FBSD appears to have more support for high-end devices. :-\ Then again, I wouldn't spend too much time on it, not for a page that touts "64-bits" as part of the OS. I also note that they don't list NetBSD, which would obviously shame Linux when it comes to the "# of platforms" category. -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 15:46:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00242 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:46:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (root@mexico.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00236 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: from brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (brasil.brainstorm.fr [193.56.58.33]) by mexico.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA12404 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:46:44 +0200 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by brasil.brainstorm.eu.org (8.8.6/brasil-1.2) with UUCP id AAA10571 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:45:51 +0200 Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.11/nospam) id AAA10782; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:44:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971014004418.27152@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:44:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page References: <19971013075848.09331@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19971013075848.09331@klemm.gtn.com>; from Andreas Klemm on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 07:58:48AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3728 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Andreas Klemm: > The author of the web page claims, that he is interested in > corrections ... Even corrections as in "rewrite the whole damn thing to be at least honest" ? This is flame bait, not feature tables. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #36: Sat Oct 4 19:58:34 CEST 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 18:55:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11483 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:55:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11473 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:55:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA01919; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:25:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:25:28 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Lemon Cc: jkb , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page References: <17167.876767152@time.cdrom.com> <19971013170015.39984@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <19971013170015.39984@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 05:00:15PM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 05:00:15PM -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On Oct 10, 1997 at 02:36:36PM -0700, jkb wrote: >> I wonder if we should cc: linuxrx@www.falconweb.com and tell them >> that FreeBSD does support "Multiple CPU's" and pthreads. And the part >> about "most used for low-end workstation": > > Actually, I thought that FBSD was used more for high-end workstations, > leaving the low-end segment to Linux. This would explain why FBSD > appears to have more support for high-end devices. :-\ > > Then again, I wouldn't spend too much time on it, not for a page > that touts "64-bits" as part of the OS. I also note that they don't > list NetBSD, which would obviously shame Linux when it comes to > the "# of platforms" category. Why not give this guy the benefit of the doubt? I'll send him the comparison that I plan to print in "The Complete FreeBSD", and offer to investigate the grey areas, like driver support. Question to all, particularly jkh: This guy claims 6,000,000 users of Linux, obviously a very optimistic figure. If we're optimistic, how high could we push the number of FreeBSD users without leaving the realms of reality? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 19:31:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13734 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:31:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ppp1643.on.sympatico.ca (ppp1643.on.sympatico.ca [206.172.249.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13609 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:28:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@ppp1643.on.sympatico.ca) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1643.on.sympatico.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00413; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:25:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim@ppp1643.on.sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:25:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: jkb cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, jkb wrote: > Hmm, > > I wonder if we should cc: linuxrx@www.falconweb.com and tell them > that FreeBSD does support "Multiple CPU's" and pthreads. And the part > about "most used for low-end workstation": > Lets have FreeBSD Inc. sue them for public misinformation. Actually, I kinda' enjoyed reading it. Amusing. :-) I wouldn't worry too much about potential misinformation. Speaking for myself, I'm not usually influenced too much by reviewers who don't even take the time to smooth-out the tortured English in their articles... -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 21:20:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA19822 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19808 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:20:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00347; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:47:23 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710140417.NAA00347@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Julian Elischer cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good name for a (in fact 2) new module(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:32:34 MST." <34425B31.167EB0E7@whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:47:21 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Mike Smith wrote: > > > >seeing a > > > /sys/dev/slice or /sys/dev/das (no, not DAAS for those .au members). > > > > Damn. I was going to suggest that you could call the network module > > "Gough". (Heh, figure _that_ one out...) > geeze I give up.. > "All tings to all men? > idealistic but impractical? One of the members of DAAS went on to form The Whitlams. I might also have suggested NWYT (Not Without Your Toothbrush); a TV show presented by another of them. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 21:52:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21673 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:52:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21665 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:52:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA09689; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:58:26 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:58:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710140458.WAA09689@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Stephen McKay CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course In-Reply-To: <199710131142.VAA17994@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> References: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199710131142.VAA17994@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen McKay writes: > Casting my mind back to my undergraduate OS course days, the most important > aspect was simplicity, which roughly equates to size, or lack thereof. For > study purposes, performance and ease of installation are unimportant. You > need a system you can get your head around. In that case, you probably want to study the uC/OS (pronounced micro controller operating system) and the accompanying book by Jean J. Labrosse. I met Jean last week, he's quite an interesting fellow to talk to. uC/OS is a small, embeddable kernel sans I/O system suitable for placing into tiny devices like programmable thermostats, etc. The code compiles to about 8K on an x86. On the other hand, this is not exactly what you'd call a full-featured system. ;^) > You want your students to absorb some facts presumably through practical > experimentation and not just theory. So, you should get the simplest device > that shows some real world behaviour that they can play with, and usually I'll argue this point. Weber State received kudos from most of the local employers of programmers for courses like their device drivers series, where students get to develop drivers for, and crash and debug, actual Sun and Digital systems. Writing a device driver for VMS is *anything but* simple. > break, but perhaps improve. I don't count adding a do-nothing system call > as good enough. I would expect more, or not bother doing the course. Agreed. > At least I'd expect something along the lines of changing the scheduling > policy or some paging or swapping policy. Our experiments with biasing > disk priority along with CPU priority showed us how easy it is to make a > total botch of things. :-) My experience with adding a system call to Minix to allow the application to sleep for a single clock tick was pretty instructive (in my early years) of the level of detail you had to prepare for in order to do kernel warfare. While simple, it was significantly less simple than it originally seemed. ;^) > For our course, we used XINU and another homebaked microkernel (really not > much more than a scheduler). These were simple enough to get your head > around, and simple enough that we could easily find bits to improve. Part > of the fun was writing a disk driver for some horrendously old PDP11 disk. > Forget which one now, but I should have kept a souvenir. > > I recommend that you use Minix, together with its fine book. Linux > or FreeBSD (well, you could guess which I really prefer) would be more > appropriate as support tools in a compiler course, or web technology > course, or whatever. Or for a year long postgrad OS research project. > I think they are too complex for your average undergraduate with 20 > other things on their mind. You want them to remember some of your course, > not just marvel at how complex your props are. I'd agree if it is a 2nd year undergraduate course in "intro to" operating systems. For a fourth year course on details of operating systems, I'd dive into a *real* system like FreeBSD or Linux. > Or perhaps I've been unfair. I see a clear distinction between teaching > students how to be OS users and teaching them how to be OS builders. I > have assumed you want them to be OS builders. If I'm wrong, forget I > was here. I had made the same assumption. > On Monday, 13th October 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > >I welcome contrasting viewpoints, not that I'm likely to find any here. > > This is a little meta, but, don't you think we have a higher proportion > of contrasting viewpoints over here in the FreeBSD camp than those other > more fixated types? ;-) It would seem so; I've gotten several contrasting viewpoints, even those that agreed with me agreed on contrasting points. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 22:14:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22866 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22860 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00558; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710140514.WAA00558@rah.star-gate.com> To: Kristian Soerensen cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD OS Comparison Chart In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:04:34 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:14:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Don't really know why one of the hackers spotted your web page at any rate it was mentioned that your web page needed update;nevertheless, plenty of developers in the list should be able to give you all the info that you need . Just ask why .... Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Kristian Soerensen : > > On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > FreeBSD supports Multiple CPUs and it does have pthreads. > > If you need further verification please don't hesitate to e-mail or I > > can > > put you in touch with the FreeBSD Core Team. > > I would really appreciate some hard facts about support for multiple CPU's > and threads in FreeBSD. > > I have unsuccesfully been looking for information on these two issues on > www.freebsd.org, and is being told differently by the people I have heard > from. > > The facts I need is: > The availability of threads in FreeBSD, what kind of threads > (posix or some other flawor) it is, and the quality eg. old > and throughly tested or new and only for developers. > > The same goes for multiple CPU's. > > It would be a great help to me if you point me to a place where I can > get solid facts on these, or forward it to someone who is involved in the > development of it. > > > > BTW why have I received 3 e-mails concerning the FreeBSD part of the OS > comparison within the last couple of hours, is it mentioned somewhere > prominent ? > > > > --- Webserver Marketshare http://www.image.dk/~elof --- > Kristian Elof Soerensen elof@image.dk 45 93 92 02 > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 23:00:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25109 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:00:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25103 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA01156; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd001148; Tue Oct 14 06:00:09 1997 Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:58:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Mike Smith cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: good name for a (in fact 2) new module(s) In-Reply-To: <199710140417.NAA00347@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk ah I have been out of OZ too long.. I missed all that. On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Mike Smith wrote: > > Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > >seeing a > > > > /sys/dev/slice or /sys/dev/das (no, not DAAS for those .au members). > > > > > > Damn. I was going to suggest that you could call the network module > > > "Gough". (Heh, figure _that_ one out...) > > geeze I give up.. > > "All tings to all men? > > idealistic but impractical? > > One of the members of DAAS went on to form The Whitlams. I might also > have suggested NWYT (Not Without Your Toothbrush); a TV show presented > by another of them. > > mike > > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 23:03:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25218 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:03:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25201 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00938; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:29:07 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710140559.PAA00938@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Julian Assange cc: griffin@blackhole.iceworld.org (Jimbo Bahooli), chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: smurf.c ported to freebsd and friends In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:53:41 +1000." <199710140453.OAA25896@suburbia.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:29:07 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > ---- smurf.c ---- ... > > * rox my sox, zuez, toxik, robocod, and everyone else that i might have > > * missed (you know who you are). > > * > > [and on and on and on] > > Astounding. You would think this bozo had just written War and > Peace, instead of a tired cut-and-paste implimentation of a > dull idea implimented at least half a dozen times over the last > 5 years. Heh. You must have been in the wrong community too long; that sort of rampant drivel is extremely common in that domain, crossing into the warez and demo-coder crowds as well. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 23:05:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25394 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:05:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25374 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA00958; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:31:51 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710140601.PAA00958@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: jbryant@tfs.net cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:31:02 EST." <199710140531.AAA02530@argus.tfs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:31:51 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Remember, for the most part we're talking about security specs brought to > > you by the same government that would limit cryptography to key escrow > > techniques. > > the same government that managed to keep the f117a under wraps for 25 > years... despite all of the spies posing as ufo geeks at groom lake... This is the same government that thought that hiding a fair-weather aircraft for 25 years was a worthwhile investment of the taxpayers money? (And was it the spies or AvLeak that got it first anyway?) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 23:20:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25946 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25940 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:20:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA02545; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:49:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971014154927.13124@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:49:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: src/contrib/awk References: <19971013000451.LV23362@uriah.heep.sax.de> <24668.876726313@critter.freebsd.dk> <19971013112151.GI37696@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <19971013112151.GI37696@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 11:21:51AM +0200 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 11:21:51AM +0200, J Wunsch wrote: > As Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > >> I have more than once thought about having a batch made of stiff paper >> so that they could be mailed cheaply. Part of the punishment would > > Oh, great! Yes, do it! :) > >> then be to figure out the written Danish instructions for how to >> assemble the thing :-) > > Hmm, i figure i'm probably not the one who'd have the worst > difficulties with *this*. ;-) Or you could have instructions for illiterate Germans (just pictures, no text). I could never understand them, either. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 23:29:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26228 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:29:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26222 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:29:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01045 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:56:14 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710140626.PAA01045@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: What's On in SF ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:56:14 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk So, it seems I'll have a couple of days in SF around the 20th or so of next month. What should I do with them? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 23:30:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26322 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26252 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id HAA24855; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:16:20 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22383; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:06:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971014080600.54765@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:06:00 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 10:25:22PM -0400 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 10:25:22PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, jkb wrote: > > > Hmm, > > > > I wonder if we should cc: linuxrx@www.falconweb.com and tell them > > that FreeBSD does support "Multiple CPU's" and pthreads. And the part > > about "most used for low-end workstation": > > Lets have FreeBSD Inc. sue them for public misinformation. > > Actually, I kinda' enjoyed reading it. Amusing. :-) > > I wouldn't worry too much about potential misinformation. > Speaking for myself, I'm not usually influenced too much by > reviewers who don't even take the time to smooth-out the tortured > English in their articles... Not so amusing is, that this is a concrete misinformation. And there are enough people who believe in such figures. -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' andreas@klemm.gtn.com - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html andreas@FreeBSD.ORG - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 13 23:42:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27016 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27011 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:42:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA20992; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:41:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Greg Lehey cc: Jonathan Lemon , jkb , Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:25:28 +0930." <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:41:55 -0700 Message-ID: <20988.876811315@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Why not give this guy the benefit of the doubt? I'll send him the > comparison that I plan to print in "The Complete FreeBSD", and offer > to investigate the grey areas, like driver support. Well, as others have already noted, there is a clear and obvious attempt to inflate Linux with this. Let me give you some examples: 1. It makes a big thing of Linux's cross-platform abilities but conveniently doesn't mention NetBSD at all. 2. It refers to FreeBSD as a "low end server OS" which is about as bogus as it gets. 3. It pads out each Linux description with things like "can be an IP gateway!" and extolls other such pan-OS features only in the Linux column, as if it was the only OS to offer such things. I'm sorry, but this is simply an example of the highly biased and carefully picked "yes/no" lists you typically see in advertising comparisons. It has no objective value that I can see. > Question to all, particularly jkh: This guy claims 6,000,000 users of > Linux, obviously a very optimistic figure. If we're optimistic, how > high could we push the number of FreeBSD users without leaving the > realms of reality? Considering that the 6M figure has already left the realm of reality far, far behind, I guess we could say that we had 3 million users with equal justification. It wouldn't change the fact that it was utterly false, of course, but if you're trying to compete on an equal footing, well... :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 00:17:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28862 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:17:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28845 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA03117; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:46:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971014164629.55488@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:46:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: elof@image.dk Subject: Operating System comparison chart, FreeBSD-Linux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I'm just finishing a book about FreeBSD, and one of the topics I need to address is the difference between FreeBSD and Linux. Since you've done the same thing, maybe we can help each other. First, your comparison. Here are some things that I think might need correction: 1. Periperals (note spelling :-) ============== FreeBSD: Nothing fancy, just the basic stuff. Linux: Drivers for most interesting peripherals in almost all areas of UNIX-computing. It's very difficult to quantify this, and as you'll see in my draft below, I echo the same suggestion that there are more drivers available for FreeBSD than for Linux. Others in the FreeBSD camp contest this. Certainly there's more than just basic stuff in the list of FreeBSD peripherals, but we have the problem that we know of no single peripheral that Linux supports and FreeBSD doesn't. Can you help here? Tell me some peripherals which Linux supports and which you think FreeBSD doesn't, and I'll check. 2. Threads ========== FreeBSD supports threads libraries, and work is well in progress for a kernel implementation. This looks pretty much the same as for Linux. 3. Multiple CPUs ================ FreeBSD now supports multiple CPUs. 4. Address space ================ This is somewhat misleading. Linux doesn't support 64 bits on Intel. 5. Updates/bug-fixes ==================== FreeBSD: New releases about twice a year, frequent not-really-tested snapshots. Linux: As needed, Linux is often the first OS with a patch when major bug's surfaces. Somehow this looks like an apples/oranges comparison. I could equally well change the statements around without invalidating them. What I see is: FreeBSD: Apart from the 2-3 times a year releases, there's also a -STABLE branch of the tree which is updated about once a week. When bugs are reported, the fixes are put into this branch of the tree. The "snapshots" are of the development tree, which, like Linux, is a bleeding-edge development. Does Linux still have the odd/even version numbers for stable and development? And, of course, FreeBSD is frequently the first OS with a patch when [a] major OS-independent bug surfaces. 6. Availability =============== These two are really saying the same thing. How about unifying the description? 7. User base ============ What method did you use to come to your figure for Linux? We'll use it to estimate the FreeBSD user base. Secondly, I'm appending my current text. I'd appreciate feedback. Thanks in advance Greg Greg Lehey LEMIS grog@lemis.com PO Box 460 Tel: +61-8-8388-8286 Echunga SA 5153 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Australia Linux is a clone of UNIX written by Linus Torvalds, a student in Helsinki, Finland. At the time, the BSD sources were not freely available, and so Linus wrote his own version of UNIX. Linux is a superb example of how a few dedicated, clever people can produce an operating system that is better than well-known commercial systems developed by a large number of trained software engineers. It is better even than a number of commercial UNIX systems. Obviously, I don't think Linux is as good as FreeBSD, or I wouldn't be writing this book, but the differences between FreeBSD and Linux are more a matter of philosophy rather than of concept. Here are a few contrasts: Table 1-1. Differences between FreeBSD and Linux FreeBSD is a direct descendent of the Linux is a clone and never contained any original UNIX, though it contains no AT&T code residual AT&T code. FreeBSD is a complete operating system, Linux is a kernel, personally maintained maintained by a central group of soft- by a Linus Torvalds. The non-kernel ware developers. There is only one programs supplied with Linux are part of distribution of FreeBSD. a distribution, of which there are sev- eral. FreeBSD aims to be a stable production Linux is still a ``bleeding edge'' de- environment. velopment environment, though many dis- tributions aim to make it more suitable for production use. As a result of the centralized develop- The ease of installation of Linux de- ment style, FreeBSD is straightforward pends on the ``distribution''. If you and easy to install. switch from one distribution of Linux to another, you'll have to learn a new set of installation tools. FreeBSD is still relatively unknown, Linux did not have any lawsuits to since its distribution was restricted contend with, so for a long time it was for a long time due to the AT&T law- the only free UNIX-type system avail- suits. able. As a result of the lack of knowledge of A growing amount of commercial software FreeBSD, not much commercial software is is becoming available for Linux. available for it. As a result of the smaller user base, Just about any new board will soon have FreeBSD is less likely to have drivers a driver for Linux. for brand-new boards than Linux. Because of the lack of commercial appli- Linux appears not to need to be able to cations and drivers, FreeBSD will run run FreeBSD programs or drivers. most Linux programs, whether commercial or not. It's also relatively simple to port Linux drivers to FreeBSD. FreeBSD has a large number of afficiona- Linux has a large number of afficionados dos who are prepared to flame anybody who are prepared to flame anybody who who dares suggest that it's not better dares suggest that it's not better than than Linux. FreeBSD. In summary, Linux is also a very good operating system. For many, it's better than FreeBSD. It's a pity that so many people on both sides are prepared to flame each other. There are signs that both sides are learning to appreciate each other, and a number of people are now running both systems. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 00:17:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28908 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:17:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28901 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA03130; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:47:18 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971014164717.06449@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:47:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page References: <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> <20988.876811315@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <20988.876811315@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 11:41:55PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 11:41:55PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Considering that the 6M figure has already left the realm of reality > far, far behind, I guess we could say that we had 3 million users with > equal justification. It wouldn't change the fact that it was utterly > false, of course, but if you're trying to compete on an equal footing, > well... :-) OK, we'll ask him for his method and apply it to our estimates :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 00:48:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA01366 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01334 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:47:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA21481; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:46:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Smith cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:31:51 +0930." <199710140601.PAA00958@word.smith.net.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:46:56 -0700 Message-ID: <21477.876815216@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > This is the same government that thought that hiding a fair-weather > aircraft for 25 years was a worthwhile investment of the taxpayers > money? Whoa! Is someone slamming the F117 here? Fightin' words! Whatever shortcomings the F117 may have in the frailty of its skin coating are more than offset by its ability to go after radar sites and down SAM corridors after highly defended targets. It sure beats the old days when you sent a couple of B52 "cells" (3 bombers) in after the same target and were't too surprised if you lost a couple of aircraft in the process. Now the B2, on the other hand - that may indeed be a bomber who's primary mission no longer justifies its cost. Better to do today's job with smaller, less expensive units. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 00:48:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA01409 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:48:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01399 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA03314; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:18:40 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971014171839.12191@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:18:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Giao Nguyen Cc: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course References: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <19971013074944.05989@functional.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <19971013074944.05989@functional.com>; from Giao Nguyen on Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 07:49:44AM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Oct 13, 1997 at 07:49:44AM +0000, Giao Nguyen wrote: > Graeme Cross said: >> LINUX Kernel Internals >> Beck, Michael & Bohme, Harold & Mirko, Dziadzka & Kunitz, Böhme or Boehme >> Ulrich & Magnus, Robert & Verworner, Dick; Addison Wesley; >> 1996; ISBN: 0-201-87741-4; 480pp. >> >> A guide to Linux kernel programming; covers 1.2, slightly out >> of date now. > > I just have to wonder about the current-ness of such an item. At the > speed at which the Linux kernel moves, it's rather difficult to have > anything standing still long enough to be documented. That applies to most systems, admittedly more to Linux. I have the original of this book (as you can imagine from the names of the authors, it's originally German). It was written in 1994 for 1.0. I wonder how much warming over it got for 1.2. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 01:01:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02257 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02246 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:00:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA01367; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:27:30 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710140757.RAA01367@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:46:56 MST." <21477.876815216@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:27:29 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > This is the same government that thought that hiding a fair-weather > > aircraft for 25 years was a worthwhile investment of the taxpayers > > money? > > Whoa! Is someone slamming the F117 here? Fightin' words! > > Whatever shortcomings the F117 may have in the frailty of its skin > coating are more than offset by its ability to go after radar sites > and down SAM corridors after highly defended targets. *chuckle* It's still the only aircraft that's seriously threatened by a Piper with a big box of dry ice. 8) > Now the B2, on the other hand - that may indeed be a bomber who's > primary mission no longer justifies its cost. Better to do today's > job with smaller, less expensive units. The notion that you need a pilot at the controls at all is the obsolescent concept. With todays state-of-the-art in semi- and fully-autonomous RPVs, piloted military aircraft are close to becoming dinosaurs. About the only piloted craft I have much respect for is the A10, and there's isn't even a decent A10 sim around, so I have to make do with EF2000 and the odd helicopter. *grumble* mike From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 01:33:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04047 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04042 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA21914; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:32:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Smith cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:27:29 +0930." <199710140757.RAA01367@word.smith.net.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:32:55 -0700 Message-ID: <21910.876817975@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Whatever shortcomings the F117 may have in the frailty of its skin > > coating are more than offset by its ability to go after radar sites > > and down SAM corridors after highly defended targets. > > *chuckle* It's still the only aircraft that's seriously threatened by > a Piper with a big box of dry ice. 8) You still need to find it in order to drop the ice on it, and that's the rub, aye? :-) I think the aircraft's performance in desert storm pretty much speaks for itself. No way in hell we'd have been able to waltz in and hit the air ministry building in Hanoi during the Vietnam war with such equanimity, and I know we lost a fair number of aircraft trying. All the totally screwed up ROE stipulations didn't help either, of course, but I think you have to give some of today's tech due credit in making a fairly straight-forward process out of things which would have been considered completely suicidal in earlier conflicts. > The notion that you need a pilot at the controls at all is the > obsolescent concept. With todays state-of-the-art in semi- and > fully-autonomous RPVs, piloted military aircraft are close to becoming > dinosaurs. "Sort of." This was the argument advanced by quite a few when the Tomahawk SLAM came into play, especially among the submarine contingent who, until now, have never been able to play a significant role in anything but the interdiction aspects of a conflict and are rather happy with the new land attack role which a brace of terrain following cruise missiles gives them. However, that argument also ignores several key facts, one of which is that a cruise missile may be "smart" but it's not particularly capable in a number of other very important areas, like post-strike assessment. An aircraft orbiting the strike can elect to make a 2nd pass as necessary, if it has the ordinance, or at the very least make radio contact with other aircraft which may be able to make a follow-up strike on what may be a critically important target. Warfare is highly dynamic, to say the least and, until our "smart weapons" go about one full generation further in sophistication, it's still going to be cheaper and more flexible to retain the human element. As Werner Von Braun was reputed to have said, it's also one of the few pieces of equipment which can be mass produced with unskilled labor. :) Also, when you're arguing your RPVs, I assume you're also not talking about replacing the gunship helicopters? Those are just too usefully agile to get rid of anytime soon, I think. If we had full video telemetry to each smart weapon, each also capable of making independant target assessment and extended "loitering" over the battlefield, that might start to shift the balance away from the manned aircraft, I think, but it all sort of depends on cost, too. If each hyperintelligent fire-and-forget weapon costs you, say, $5M apiece (assuming a modest 5X increase in the Tomahawk's current cost) then it's going to cost you something like $30 *billion* in completely expended dollars to mount even a modest air campaign of 6000 sorties - I believe we flew easily twice that many in desert storm. In contrast, an advanced strike aircraft costing even as much as $100M should be able to make thousands of sorties with a $50K bombload of smart bombs each time (and bolting a set of laser guided fins on a "dumb" iron bomb is not very expensive) if it's reasonably radar invisible and protected by a decent strike cap on each sortie. It also costs you something around $5B to manufacture enough aircraft to deliver the same 6000 sorties (and I'm including all the SAM suppression and fighter cap aircraft, not just the strike planes) and unless you lose all of those aircraft in combat, as you would the smart weapons, they're going to fly home afterwards and be usable in some future conflict. We're still using F4 Phantoms from the Vietnam war, fer chrissake, and we have to be careful that we don't wind up pricing ourselves right out of the market, eh? That wouldn't be very capitalist. :-) :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 01:43:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04698 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04691 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:43:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03517; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710140843.BAA03517@rah.star-gate.com> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:46:56 PDT." <21477.876815216@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:43:17 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >From The Desk Of "Jordan K. Hubbard" : > > This is the same government that thought that hiding a fair-weather > > aircraft for 25 years was a worthwhile investment of the taxpayers > > money? > > Whoa! Is someone slamming the F117 here? Fightin' words! > > Whatever shortcomings the F117 may have in the frailty of its skin > coating are more than offset by its ability to go after radar sites > and down SAM corridors after highly defended targets. It sure beats > the old days when you sent a couple of B52 "cells" (3 bombers) in > after the same target and were't too surprised if you lost a couple of > aircraft in the process. > > Now the B2, on the other hand - that may indeed be a bomber who's > primary mission no longer justifies its cost. Better to do today's ^^^^^^ It took a whole lot of effort and money to get to the point in which is no longer warranted to develop sophisticated weapons to defeat the enemy . It was a war on the management of economy which have paid dearly for however we are now free to discuss these issues 8) Cheers, Amancio From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 02:00:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA05540 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:00:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA05529 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:00:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01615; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:27:13 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710140857.SAA01615@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:32:55 MST." <21910.876817975@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:27:12 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > Whatever shortcomings the F117 may have in the frailty of its skin > > > coating are more than offset by its ability to go after radar sites > > > and down SAM corridors after highly defended targets. > > > > *chuckle* It's still the only aircraft that's seriously threatened by > > a Piper with a big box of dry ice. 8) > > You still need to find it in order to drop the ice on it, and that's > the rub, aye? :-) You know where the target is; a stealthy aircraft's not much use if all it can do is hide. 8) > I think the aircraft's performance in desert storm > pretty much speaks for itself. You mean of course the spin put on its performance by a very active PR contingent. 8) > No way in hell we'd have been able to > waltz in and hit the air ministry building in Hanoi during the Vietnam > war with such equanimity, and I know we lost a fair number of aircraft > trying. All the totally screwed up ROE stipulations didn't help > either, of course, but I think you have to give some of today's tech > due credit in making a fairly straight-forward process out of things > which would have been considered completely suicidal in earlier > conflicts. That depends on whether you are constrained to thinking inside the current model of escalated conflict and warplay. I'd have to say that there are plenty of other ways that the entire conflict could have been dealt with. For sure, in a most-toys-wins comparison, the '117 is a great asset. > > The notion that you need a pilot at the controls at all is the > > obsolescent concept. With todays state-of-the-art in semi- and > > fully-autonomous RPVs, piloted military aircraft are close to becoming > > dinosaurs. > > "Sort of." This was the argument advanced by quite a few when the > Tomahawk SLAM came into play, especially among the submarine > contingent who, until now, have never been able to play a significant > role in anything but the interdiction aspects of a conflict and are > rather happy with the new land attack role which a brace of terrain > following cruise missiles gives them. However, that argument also > ignores several key facts, one of which is that a cruise missile may > be "smart" but it's not particularly capable in a number of other very > important areas, like post-strike assessment. It's not meant to be; it's a weapon. Use a surveilance device to look at things, and a weapon to break them. My only point is that transporting these in a vulnerable, performance-constrained vehicle is inefficient and expensive. > ... As Werner Von Braun was reputed > to have said, it's also one of the few pieces of equipment which can > be mass produced with unskilled labor. :) The problem isn't using people, it's protecting them. > Also, when you're arguing your RPVs, I assume you're also not talking > about replacing the gunship helicopters? Those are just too usefully > agile to get rid of anytime soon, I think. Why are they going to get less agile when you remove the need to provide protection for the crew? If you cut the cockpit and glass out of an Apache, you reduce the side area by about 25%; this lets you cut the rotor size and boom length, giving you a shorter rotational moment and *more* agility. > If we had full video telemetry to each smart weapon, each also capable > of making independant target assessment and extended "loitering" over > the battlefield, that might start to shift the balance away from the > manned aircraft, I think, but it all sort of depends on cost, too. If > each hyperintelligent fire-and-forget weapon costs you, say, $5M > apiece (assuming a modest 5X increase in the Tomahawk's current cost) > then it's going to cost you something like $30 *billion* in completely > expended dollars to mount even a modest air campaign of 6000 sorties - > I believe we flew easily twice that many in desert storm. You are still thinking like a capitalist warmonger. Economy of scale and pragmatic design would bring weapon costs *down*, not drive them up. I'm not advocating "hypersmart" weapons, just "adequately smart" ones. The Tomahawk is an excellent example of an overpriced, underperforming military design; put it in the hands of a manufacturer working in the real world and you'd be looking at a 5x reduction in cost. (Apologies to all the MI combine employees out there for the rude handwave.) For a good example, look at the aircraft that the Australian BoM are developing for remote-area weather sensing. It's fully autonomous, capable of dealing intelligently with almost any weather condition (inclding flying in cyclonic weather conditions) and has a "loiter time" measured in days. The small-quantity build cost for these is rumoured to be in the sub-50K bracket; about on a par with a set of boots for your F117 pilot. 8) > some future conflict. We're still using F4 Phantoms from the Vietnam > war, fer chrissake, and we have to be careful that we don't wind up > pricing ourselves right out of the market, eh? That wouldn't be very > capitalist. :-) :-) No, but there's a fine line between that and screwing a paranoid government for every last cent its taxpayers can be ripped of. IMHO military equipment should be commercially viable. In many cases it is, but in many more it's pathetically poor, and almost always ridiculously overhyped. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 02:17:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA06374 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06367 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 02:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA03865; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:47:05 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971014184705.14861@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:47:05 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) References: <21477.876815216@time.cdrom.com> <199710140757.RAA01367@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710140757.RAA01367@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 05:27:29PM +0930 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 05:27:29PM +0930, Mike Smith wrote: >> Now the B2, on the other hand - that may indeed be a bomber who's >> primary mission no longer justifies its cost. Better to do today's >> job with smaller, less expensive units. > > The notion that you need a pilot at the controls at all is the > obsolescent concept. With todays state-of-the-art in semi- and > fully-autonomous RPVs, piloted military aircraft are close to becoming > dinosaurs. OK, guys, who's going to be the first to have a FreeBSD box fly a bomber? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 06:54:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17695 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA17672; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 06:54:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23319; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:54:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA06666; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:53:43 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:53:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710141353.HAA06666@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Wes Peters Cc: Stephen McKay , bde@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course In-Reply-To: <199710140458.WAA09689@obie.softweyr.ml.org> References: <199710120351.WAA09609@pulsar.cs.wku.edu> <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199710131142.VAA17994@ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au> <199710140458.WAA09689@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >> You want your students to absorb some facts presumably through >> practical experimentation and not just theory. So, you should get >> the simplest device that shows some real world behaviour that they >> can play with, and usually > > I'll argue this point. Weber State received kudos from most of the > local employers of programmers for courses like their device drivers > series, where students get to develop drivers for, and crash and debug, > actual Sun and Digital systems. Writing a device driver for VMS is > *anything but* simple. I think you're both right. For a 'introduction' OS course, simpler is better. Too often students get lost in the details and miss understanding the big picture with 'real' code that has lots of hair. With stuff like minix, it's easier to understand the underlying concepts. But, it gets boring/limiting when you want to start doing something real with it and you run into certain limits (most notably the compiler limitations on minix), so you end up using a 'Real' OS for the advanced courses, such as dev. drivers. On a personal note, I started using minix, and then 'graduated' to bigger/better things. Bruce on the other hand decided to re-write minix originally, and had time to write a compiler at the same time. I guess FreeBSD must be a bit bigger with lots more hair in in that needs to be fixed since I haven't seen any new development tools out of him in a long time. :) :) ;) [ I Cc'd him on this, but he probably wants to be left out of further discussion. :) ] Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 07:02:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18296 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:02:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18283 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:02:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA27121; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:02:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Smith cc: jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:27:12 +0930." <199710140857.SAA01615@word.smith.net.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:02:16 -0700 Message-ID: <27117.876837736@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > That depends on whether you are constrained to thinking inside the > current model of escalated conflict and warplay. I'd have to say that > there are plenty of other ways that the entire conflict could have been > dealt with. For sure, in a most-toys-wins comparison, the '117 is a > great asset. Hmmm. Well, even under the broad umbrella of -chat, this looks like it's dangerously close to veering off into alt.amateur.military.debate material so if you'd like to elaborate on just what interesting new models for warfare you have come up with using that unconstrained perspective of yours, perhaps we can take it to private email. ;-) > It's not meant to be; it's a weapon. Use a surveilance device to look > at things, and a weapon to break them. My only point is that Sorry, I thought it was also obvious enough that satellite reconnaisance is too slow (it can take hours to get the strike zone into somebody's footprint) and that it's still unproven whether or not the smaller RPVs can survive as part of a concentrated strike package. It's going to take something pretty special to wean the brass from their gun camera and bombsite footage, that's all I'm saying. I haven't seen it quite yet. > > Also, when you're arguing your RPVs, I assume you're also not talking > > about replacing the gunship helicopters? Those are just too usefully > > agile to get rid of anytime soon, I think. > > Why are they going to get less agile when you remove the need to > provide protection for the crew? If you cut the cockpit and glass out > of an Apache, you reduce the side area by about 25%; this lets you cut Sorry, "agile" was the wrong word - "flexible" is what I meant. Even with the ultimate robot equipped Apache, hundreds of pounds lighter and able to take G loads that no human pilot could, you've still got the problem of having it hang out intelligently in a battlefield environment, taking the proper initiatives when confronted with opportunities for inflicting serious damage on some enemy asset. The software for truly intelligent autonomous roaming at the same level as a pair of human eyes just isn't there and you know it - the state of AI today is in rather sad shape and the talking paperclip in Office 97 is about as close as any of us will get to HAL 9000 during this particular millenium (and quite possibly the next one as well if we keep slipping HAL's ship dates the way we have so far). The alternative is telepresence, and I don't see that being a particularly robust solution either in the presence of problems like jamming, transmission delay and the plain and simple fact that a Mark-I eyeball, during daylight operations, still beats a sensor sending back some limited resolution picture (now at night, on the other hand, I do see a rather different story - that time may indeed someday belong solely to the machines). > You are still thinking like a capitalist warmonger. Economy of scale > and pragmatic design would bring weapon costs *down*, not drive them > up. I'm not advocating "hypersmart" weapons, just "adequately smart" > ones. The Tomahawk is an excellent example of an overpriced, So you'd prefer to build V1 buzz-bombs than V2 rockets - that sort of mindset? That mindset works in a few areas of warfare, one perhaps being missiles, but it doesn't work with, say, tanks. We proved that in WW-II, where the far more numerically superior Shermans were nonetheless sitting ducks for the German Tigers, and we proved it again in the Gulf - most of the T-72 tanks lost in the battle of 83 Easting were hit at ranges beyond where they could even see and engage the M-1 Abrams. Sometimes building a smaller number of more expensive and capable weapons beats building a larger number of cheaper but far more easily killed weapons, economies of scale or not. > For a good example, look at the aircraft that the Australian BoM are > developing for remote-area weather sensing. It's fully autonomous, > capable of dealing intelligently with almost any weather condition > (inclding flying in cyclonic weather conditions) and has a "loiter > time" measured in days. Yes yes, or the Israeli RPVs for that matter. All interesting ideas and even very good for certain roles, like artillery spotting, but I just don't see them quite replacing the manned aircraft this year, you know what I'm saying? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 08:01:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21940 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21924 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:00:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20636; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:49:12 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:49:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Sweet dreams are made of this... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk http://www.sun.com/announcement/letter.html From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 08:21:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23234 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:21:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23223 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20936; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:03:53 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:03:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Mike Smith , jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <21477.876815216@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Whoa! Is someone slamming the F117 here? Fightin' words! > I also remember this airplane was used to launch a nuclear attack against the "Aliens" in "Independence Day", that excellent movie where the USA, once more, saves the world ;-) > > Now the B2, on the other hand - that may indeed be a bomber who's > primary mission no longer justifies its cost. Better to do today's > job with smaller, less expensive units. No longer ??? Victory in Vietnam !!!...Oh that wouldn't happen again ? Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 08:27:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23589 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:27:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23583 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:27:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA01079; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:25:02 -0700 (PDT) To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: Mike Smith , jbryant@tfs.net, dkelly@HiWAAY.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:03:53 CDT." Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:25:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1075.876842702@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Now the B2, on the other hand - that may indeed be a bomber who's > > primary mission no longer justifies its cost. Better to do today's > > job with smaller, less expensive units. > > No longer ??? Victory in Vietnam !!!...Oh that wouldn't happen again ? I was actually talking about low-level nuclear strikes on Russia, which is what the B2 was designed for. Vietnam? I think you're a bit behind the times. There was this "cold war" thing which followed it and dictated a lot of american strategic thinking. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 08:38:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24502 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24490 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:38:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mlduke@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.7/(97/09/12 5.7)) id LAA27123; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:38:11 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts002d23.mer-id.concentric.net [206.173.184.59]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.7) id LAA12118; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3443AEA3.6364@concentric.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:40:51 -0800 From: mlduke Reply-To: mlduke@concentric.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-GZone (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Book Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A man by the name of Coleman (Chris I think) is doing a FreeBSD book with a partner--does anyone know the web site address? Duke From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 08:47:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25341 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fps.biblos.unal.edu.co ([168.176.37.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25318 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from localhost by fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20108; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:37:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:37:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <1075.876842702@time.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I was actually talking about low-level nuclear strikes on Russia, > which is what the B2 was designed for. Vietnam? I think you're a bit > behind the times. There was this "cold war" thing which followed it > and dictated a lot of american strategic thinking. :-) > Ooops I was thinking about another B, well...all the B* have the same philosophy, and similar budgets associated with them ;-). Anyway, if there was another nam-like war I have no doubt the results would be the same... Money in weapons is lost money, but of course I don't believe that crap about making love to your enemy :-). Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 09:21:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27755 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:21:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27749 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA10453; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:26:58 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:26:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710141626.KAA10453@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Mike Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-Reply-To: <199710140857.SAA01615@word.smith.net.au> References: <21910.876817975@time.cdrom.com> <199710140857.SAA01615@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith writes: > The Tomahawk is an excellent example of an overpriced, > underperforming military design; put it in the hands of a manufacturer > working in the real world and you'd be looking at a 5x reduction in > cost. (Apologies to all the MI combine employees out there for the rude > handwave.) > > For a good example, look at the aircraft that the Australian BoM are > developing for remote-area weather sensing. It's fully autonomous, > capable of dealing intelligently with almost any weather condition > (inclding flying in cyclonic weather conditions) and has a "loiter > time" measured in days. Did anyone else here see the article last summer about the engineer in Woods Hole who built a research submarine designed to circle the world (perhaps twice) with no fuel? It uses a thermal engine producing drive from the thermal variance in the ocean water to propel it forward and generate small amounts of electrical energy. It uses the electicity and a small GPS to fix it's location while sounding, and to make course corrections. DR piloting is used while diving. Now imagine this scaled up into a semi-autonomous ballistic missile sub. Scary, huh? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 09:51:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00165 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00160 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dyson@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA04964; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:49:06 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199710141649.LAA04964@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: <20988.876811315@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Oct 13, 97 11:41:55 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:49:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, jlemon@americantv.com, jkb@best.com, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > Question to all, particularly jkh: This guy claims 6,000,000 users of > > Linux, obviously a very optimistic figure. If we're optimistic, how > > high could we push the number of FreeBSD users without leaving the > > realms of reality? > > Considering that the 6M figure has already left the realm of reality > far, far behind, I guess we could say that we had 3 million users with > equal justification. It wouldn't change the fact that it was utterly > false, of course, but if you're trying to compete on an equal footing, > well... :-) > Ahhh... they must be counting a user as a WWW page hit :-). -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 10:25:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03119 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from lgc.lgc.com (lgc.lgc.com [134.132.1.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03102 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsnow@lgc.com) Received: from oasis.zycor.lgc.com by lgc.lgc.com (5.65b/lgc.%I%) id AB29757; Tue, 14 Oct 97 12:25:15 -0500 Received: from dympna (watcher.lgc.com) by oasis.zycor.lgc.com (4.1/lgc.1.20) id AA05032; Tue, 14 Oct 97 12:24:19 CDT Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:25:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Rob Snow X-Sender: rsnow@dympna To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Large mail domains and sendmail - Sendmail gurus? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, I'm in the process of drawing up a plan for revamping our mail infrastructure. If anyone out there has dealt with these issues, I'd love to hear from you. One of the things that I have in mind is contracting freebsd.org for some consulting on the issue. My reasoning is that the FreeBSD project has the technical knowledge and experience to assist in the infrastructure design. (Besides that, I'm a fan of FreeBSD) Some of the issues I have are SMTP to Notes, Exchange, CC:Mail and layout. Thoughts? Ideas? ______________________________________________________________________ Rob Snow rsnow@lgc.com Manager Unix Development Support Phone: 281.560.1072 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 11:18:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07500 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07488 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@Kithrup.COM) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.5/8.6.6) id LAA22953; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199710141817.LAA22953@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sweet dreams are made of this... In-Reply-To: Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article you write: > >http://www.sun.com/announcement/letter.html This is, really, no real big deal, although Sun is trying to make it so. Sun is claiming a violation in their contract; they are, most likely, going to win, because they do get to say what goes in "Java." However, that doesn't make Sun *right* -- they've been looking for a reason to sue uSoft for a *long* time, and this probably thrilled them. Netscape reportedly doesn't pass Sun's conformance suite either -- and a good question is, does Sun's implementation pass Sun's conformance suite? What uSoft has done is not included a couple of classes, for their own reasons. That's not smart, but I can't fault them, really. Not a whole lot. The worst thing uSoft has done is to put some methods in the java.* hierarchy; this is very *stupid* -- Sun could easily put their own methods in with the same name, but different semantics. But, all reports are that these additional methods are marked as being uSoft-only, so no programmer should be misled. Of course, I also haven't fallen for the hype that is Java these days. It's interesting, but I dislike a bunch of things about it. It's better than C++, but, really, what isn't? :) And it is lacking in some respects, even when compared to C++. In the end, I predict that Sun will spend lots of money, and get a minor concession out of uSoft, and will hail it as a major victory. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 11:28:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08146 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08083 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24193; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:27:34 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id UAA16499; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:27:34 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:27:34 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199710141827.UAA16499@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Terry Lambert's message of Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:40:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? References: <199710140424.XAA17794@nospam.hiwaay.net> <199710141240.FAA01458@usr02.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Cc:'s moved to -chat. > > > Remember, for the most part we're talking about security specs brought to > > you by the same government that would limit cryptography to key escrow > > techniques. > > The FBI web page has a link explaining their position: legally obtained > wire taps. > > I can't help thinking that, even though this doesn't violate search > and seizure (since wire taps a re performed with due process of law, > needing a court order), it probably violates compelling one to > testify against oneself. According to my recent reading (probably in Wired) they wanted to drop that boring 'court order' part and go with only needing a subpoena... Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 12:23:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11619 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11604 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:23:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25445; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:23:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08321; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:22:58 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:22:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710141922.NAA08321@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Sean Eric Fagan Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sweet dreams are made of this... In-Reply-To: <199710141817.LAA22953@kithrup.com> References: <199710141817.LAA22953@kithrup.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > >http://www.sun.com/announcement/letter.html > > This is, really, no real big deal, although Sun is trying to make it so. Actually, it *is* a *REALLY* big deal. Java has gotten some much 'press/hype/attention' lately as "the" best solution to many problems that the recent fragmentation of the language/support is very important to many folks who are considering using Java for their intra/internet solutions. > Sun is claiming a violation in their contract; they are, most likely, going > to win, because they do get to say what goes in "Java." Maybe, it depends on the conditions of the license they signed with M$. > However, that doesn't make Sun *right* -- they've been looking for a reason > to sue uSoft for a *long* time, and this probably thrilled them. And M$ has been looking for a chance to make Java into 'just another language', and not a cross-platform solution, which would mean that WinTel solutions are no longer the 'end-all' solution. > Netscape reportedly doesn't pass Sun's conformance suite either -- and a > good question is, does Sun's implementation pass Sun's conformance suite? Netscape doesn't claim to be JDK 1.1 compatible, and yes Sun's ipmlementation does pass the conformance suite. The conformance suite is defined as the passing the 'signature' test, meaning it provides the same functions with the same parameters and returns types as defined in the JDK. > What uSoft has done is not included a couple of classes, for their own > reasons. That's not smart, but I can't fault them, really. Not a whole > lot. Sorry Sean, but you obviously don't know the whole story. What M$ has done is to modify some core classes to have different signatures (meaning that if you rely on them for things such as Java serialization) things don't work. They've also made some M$ specific classes part of the java hierarchy, which means that programmers can un-knowingly make their programs non-portable (most notably in the Font area). *Plus*, they have refused to implement RMI and JNI, which is more than 'a few missing classes', it's part of the VM implementation. > Of course, I also haven't fallen for the hype that is Java these days. > It's interesting, but I dislike a bunch of things about it. It's better > than C++, but, really, what isn't? :) And it is lacking in some respects, > even when compared to C++. Please, let us in on your thoughts as to what it's lacking. I use Java exclusively at work, and I can name a few. 1) Stability - it changes more than FreeBSD-current. :) 2) A working debugger 3) Compatible VM/AWT implementations on the major platforms (Solaris/Win32) Even Sun's reference implementation aren't compatible with one another. 4) 3rd party 'browser' support for newer implementations (see #1) 5) Speed (JIT's are starting to make a difference here) 6) Decent support from 3rd party software. Since Java is still alot of hype, it's too easy to get a job as a 'Java programmer' w/out understanding all the issues that can kill you with multi-threading. It's not a walk in the park. It's strengths, IMHO. 1) I can be a unix weenie and developer software for Win32. This makes me happy, and my managers happy. 2) Dynamic memory allocation is a breeze, and now *most* of the significant hard-to-find bugs no longer exist. 3) Threads are pretty cool. :) 4) It's *alot* like C. 5) It's an OOP language. (I never really thought I'd consider this an advantage, but having done this for a year now, I am starting to see some advantage of writing in an OOP language vs. writing OOP style in a non-OOP language such as C.) 6) It's not C++!!! Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 12:38:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12288 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:38:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12182 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:36:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.32]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA255; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:38:46 +0500 Message-ID: <3443E470.5E86@asme.org> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:30:24 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Eric Fagan CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sweet dreams are made of this... References: <199710141817.LAA22953@kithrup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > ... > > In the end, I predict that Sun will spend lots of money, and get a minor > concession out of uSoft, and will hail it as a major victory. I think this concession will be that M$ will not use the "Java compatible" logo on their product. Since much of the importance of Java is in it's logo (that certifies multiplatform compatibility) it's no small deal. Another advantage is that uSoft will lose much of it's image... people are getting tired of M$ dirty practices. As we all know M$ is only an image... Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 13:15:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14197 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14190 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:15:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29715; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:14:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id PAA19856; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:14:20 -0500 Message-ID: <19971014151420.16818@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:14:20 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Nate Williams Cc: Sean Eric Fagan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sweet dreams are made of this... References: <199710141817.LAA22953@kithrup.com> <199710141922.NAA08321@rocky.mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <199710141922.NAA08321@rocky.mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Oct 10, 1997 at 01:22:58PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Oct 10, 1997 at 01:22:58PM -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > 4) It's *alot* like C. > > 5) It's an OOP language. (I never really thought I'd consider this an > advantage, but having done this for a year now, I am starting to see > some advantage of writing in an OOP language vs. writing OOP style in > a non-OOP language such as C.) > > 6) It's not C++!!! I have only a cursory knowlege of Java (it doesn't run on the platforms that I use at work), but I came away with the impression that it was most like Obj-C, with a C++ syntax. But much slower than either. :-) -- Jonathan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 13:31:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15073 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from lsmarso.dialup.access.net (lsmarso@lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15057 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lsmarso@lsmarso.dialup.access.net) Received: (from lsmarso@localhost) by lsmarso.dialup.access.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA08656; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19971014162436.20484@panix.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:24:36 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? References: <21477.876815216@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 10:03:53AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 10:03:53AM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > Whoa! Is someone slamming the F117 here? Fightin' words! > > > I also remember this airplane was used to launch a nuclear attack against > the "Aliens" in "Independence Day", that excellent movie where the USA, > once more, saves the world ;-) No. The F117 is the "Stealth fighter", which sometimes doubles as a conventional bomber (e.g. it flew the sorties into Bagdad in the Gulf War) but is not a strategic nuclear bomber. The B2 was the stealth strategic nuclear bomber that was used in Independence Day, where international forces from countries all around the world save the earth. :) -- Larry S. Marso lsmarso@panix.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 13:40:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15741 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (saffron.fsl.noaa.gov [137.75.253.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15733 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@fsl.noaa.gov) Received: from fsl.noaa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by saffron.fsl.noaa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00370; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:39:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3443D882.969D2890@fsl.noaa.gov> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:39:31 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: CIRA/NOAA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02b7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Lemon CC: Nate Williams , Sean Eric Fagan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sweet dreams are made of this... References: <199710141817.LAA22953@kithrup.com> <199710141922.NAA08321@rocky.mt.sri.com> <19971014151420.16818@right.PCS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I'm usually wary of overly hyped things and Java was no exception. But after doing OO programming in C++ for several years, programming in Java is a walk in the clouds. The language by itself has a number of improvements over C++. There are no templates nor any nasty template instantiation. Exceptions are reasonable and (better yet) work. And although I myself used to argue against garbage collection, I find it one of the most liberating features of a environment, along with no pointers to be seen anywhere. For the first time, I feel as if my focus on programming is much more on the application domain instead of on the language and system. It feels good. :-) Oh, and my management also likes the fact that the skill set of their Unix weenies is finally being leveraged against more popular platforms. I compile and test on FreeBSD (what else?) and ship it to Windows, Solaris, HP/UX, and it runs. (For the most part. :-) --Sean From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 13:56:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16654 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:56:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user26653@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16649 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 14 Oct 1997 21:01:13 -0000 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:01:13 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Andreas Klemm cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world In-Reply-To: <19971013075848.09331@klemm.gtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Oct 1997, Andreas Klemm wrote: > http://www.falconweb.com/~linuxrx/WS_Linux/OS_comparison.html > > The author of the web page claims, that he is interested in > corrections ... Sheesh... Since when do these whackos label Linux an OS? Linux is a kernel. If they wanted to do a Linux-based OS comparison, they should compare: * Slackware * Red Hat * Cladera * Debian * etc, etc, etc... They need to set a standard to Linux before they can compare it to _anything_. Such ignorance and bias turns me off Linux. Can you say bandwagon? Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 15:50:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23602 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:50:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23568 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA05724; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:19:32 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971015081932.59889@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:19:32 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: mlduke@concentric.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book References: <3443AEA3.6364@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <3443AEA3.6364@concentric.net>; from mlduke on Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 09:40:51AM -0800 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 09:40:51AM -0800, mlduke wrote: > A man by the name of Coleman (Chris I think) is doing a FreeBSD book > with a partner--does anyone know the web site address? That's news to me. I'd be interested to hear about it, though. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 15:54:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23873 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23855 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.45]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA624; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:15:45 +0500 Message-ID: <34440932.17C9@asme.org> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:07:14 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Larry S. Marso" CC: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? References: <21477.876815216@time.cdrom.com> <19971014162436.20484@panix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Larry S. Marso wrote: > > > No. The F117 is the "Stealth fighter", which sometimes doubles as a > conventional bomber (e.g. it flew the sorties into Bagdad in the Gulf > War) but is not a strategic nuclear bomber. > > The B2 was the stealth strategic nuclear bomber that was used in > Independence Day, where international forces from countries all around > the world save the earth. :) > Hmm..I thought they shot the thing, after all the spaceship was floating. OK, I'll keep off the airfield from now on :). BTW, If it wasn't for the US president no one would've known when to shoot, and the typical american guy had to sacrifice to understand the delicate mechanism that blew the invading ship...and isn't win95 (AKA the virus) american...the rest of the world got the easy part :-). cheers, Pedro. > -- > Larry S. Marso > lsmarso@panix.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 16:09:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24823 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:09:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rush.aero.org (rush.aero.org [130.221.192.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24807; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:09:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@anpiel.aero.org) Received: from anpiel.csd (anpiel.aero.org [130.221.196.66]) by rush.aero.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27371; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from anpiel.aero.org by anpiel.csd (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA14753; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:06:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199710142306.QAA14753@anpiel.csd> To: dyson@freebsd.org cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:49:06 PDT." <199710141649.LAA04964@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:06:30 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Ahhh... they must be counting a user as a WWW page hit :-). Reminds me of the time the old _Pogo_ comic strip did a series on pollsters. One of the regulars was playing pollster, and was filling Pogo in on how strictly honest they were. It went something like this: Pollster: "We figured that the type of person who'd vote for our candidate was the type of person who'd eat mushrooms on their pizza. So, we went looking in their garbage cans for mushroom seeds. We didn't find any, so we decided to count mushmelon seeds instead." Pogo: "Gads! You must have gotten millions." Pollster: "Well, actually, our sampler claimed more people than there was on Earth. Had his license pulled for six months. Oh, we must be fair!" From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 18:32:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03348 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03343 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA00726; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:59:01 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710150129.KAA00726@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:02:16 MST." <27117.876837736@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:59:00 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > That depends on whether you are constrained to thinking inside the > > current model of escalated conflict and warplay. I'd have to say that > > there are plenty of other ways that the entire conflict could have been > > dealt with. For sure, in a most-toys-wins comparison, the '117 is a > > great asset. > > Hmmm. Well, even under the broad umbrella of -chat, this looks like > it's dangerously close to veering off into alt.amateur.military.debate > material so if you'd like to elaborate on just what interesting new > models for warfare you have come up with using that unconstrained > perspective of yours, perhaps we can take it to private email. ;-) I vote to kill it. It would appear that moving it to chat and being flippant hasn't much helped people understand. I expect that the average American male doesn't have much hope of recognising what most of the rest of the world finds so funny about the "major" military powers and their armed forces. (Issues like "pride" and "patriotism" come to mind. Back into your court, J.K. Freud 8) > > It's not meant to be; it's a weapon. Use a surveilance device to look > > at things, and a weapon to break them. My only point is that > > Sorry, I thought it was also obvious enough that satellite > reconnaisance is too slow (it can take hours to get the strike zone > into somebody's footprint) Did I say satellite? Did I not, for that matter? Contemplate the sort of coverage you could get with a pile of Iridium-style satellites; build them for limited lifetime, toss up a few thousand on SRBs and run them as a wide-area synthetic aperture. Again, conventional military thinking is just different from my (commercial, industrial) viewpoint; I'm not claiming oracularity. > and that it's still unproven whether or not > the smaller RPVs can survive as part of a concentrated strike package. > It's going to take something pretty special to wean the brass from > their gun camera and bombsite footage, that's all I'm saying. I > haven't seen it quite yet. This is much of my point; things are as they are because they are. The fact that they are doesn't repudiate the suggestion that alternative methods might be viable, merely reduces the chance that an alternative might receive any sort of reasonable hearing. > Sorry, "agile" was the wrong word - "flexible" is what I meant. Even > with the ultimate robot equipped Apache, hundreds of pounds lighter > and able to take G loads that no human pilot could, you've still got > the problem of having it hang out intelligently in a battlefield > environment, taking the proper initiatives when confronted with > opportunities for inflicting serious damage on some enemy asset. This is locked down in the current model of conflict, and is really outside anything sensible to be discussed here as you point out. Suffice to observe that if materiel stops being valuable in and of itself, hanging around to destroy it becomes a waste of time. Chase the real target instead. 8) > The > software for truly intelligent autonomous roaming at the same level as > a pair of human eyes just isn't there and you know it - the state of > AI today is in rather sad shape and the talking paperclip in Office 97 > is about as close as any of us will get to HAL 9000 during this > particular millenium (and quite possibly the next one as well if we > keep slipping HAL's ship dates the way we have so far). I could argue (and I think Amancio would concur) that the talking paperclip *is* a weapon, and probably a pretty powerful one at that. > The > alternative is telepresence, and I don't see that being a particularly > robust solution either in the presence of problems like jamming, > transmission delay and the plain and simple fact that a Mark-I > eyeball, during daylight operations, still beats a sensor sending back > some limited resolution picture. This is of course why AWACS and JSTARS are basically redundant and not at all useful to a modern pilot, right? Granted, I do all of my combat flying in simulations (and I'm a pretty lousy pilot at that), but eyeball contact has a limited (but very valid) set of uses. Given the way sensor technology stutters forward, I can see that using a modelled, reconstructed virtual environment cued from sensor data from the RPV offers quite a lot of possibilities. If you've ever had a chance to play Warbirds, you'll have some idea of what I'm getting at. > > You are still thinking like a capitalist warmonger. Economy of scale > > and pragmatic design would bring weapon costs *down*, not drive them > > up. I'm not advocating "hypersmart" weapons, just "adequately smart" > > ones. The Tomahawk is an excellent example of an overpriced, My apologies to Jim and the inference that the Tomahawk doesn't work well; on the contrary it's a marvellous performer, until you take its price into consideration. > So you'd prefer to build V1 buzz-bombs than V2 rockets - that sort of > mindset? Not as such; the key is the definition of "adequate". > That mindset works in a few areas of warfare, one perhaps > being missiles, but it doesn't work with, say, tanks. We proved that > in WW-II, where the far more numerically superior Shermans were > nonetheless sitting ducks for the German Tigers, and we proved it > again in the Gulf - most of the T-72 tanks lost in the battle of 83 > Easting were hit at ranges beyond where they could even see and engage > the M-1 Abrams. Sure. And a TOW or a Hellfire will kill an M-1 while it's still wondering what might be in the trees over yonder. Just as the Tigers were rendered useless courtesy of people like 617; if you insist on matching like with like, the better will generally triumph. > Yes yes, or the Israeli RPVs for that matter. All interesting ideas > and even very good for certain roles, like artillery spotting, but I > just don't see them quite replacing the manned aircraft this year, > you know what I'm saying? :-) Entirely. 8) What the hell, I suspect people are asking, does my stance have to do with FreeBSD? I think it should be obvious; FreeBSD is the cheaper, more "appropriate" solution in many situations where "conventional" thinking might dictate otherwise. There's probably a catchy name for this sort of allusion. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 19:08:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05443 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:08:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05431 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:08:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00894; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:35:05 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710150205.LAA00894@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:56:28 -0400." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:35:05 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Please note that I asked that this be moved to -chat, and I have taken it there. This isn't relevant to the charter of -security anymore. > > The only methods for obtaining the previous contents of a storage > > location involve physical analog access to the hardware, and if you > > have this then system security has already been compromised because you > > could have recorded the original value when it was current. > > Security is an all-encompassing thing, not electornic, not physical. > And without verified architecture, ther eis no "proof" that the only way > to get access to the storage location is via physical access. Remember, > that's why it costs a lot of money to build verified systems, one has to > build a boolean algebra description of the system that is provable, rather > than just "good enough." Whoa, hold it right there. We have already been informed that the hardware platform is subject to the certification process, obviously to ensure that all possible access to a storage location are subject to the approproiate security controls. > While things like Van Eck devices can be used for real-time access, hence > the TEMPEST and ZONE restrictions on various foreign installations > (TEMPEST is no longer mandetory for US classified, and ZONE is optional in > many cases), these do not deal with residual data. My issue was that > residual data can be read via various methods. My point is that these methods are inherently not available on a certified platform, and if the physical access to provide them *was* available, much simpler techniques could be used that would *not* be defended by zeroing the stable door after the horse has been copied. "Residual data" is not the issue here; the suggestion was that an object returned to the allocator after use by a subject should/must be overwritten multiple times at the point it is returned. Within the bounds established by the certification of the hardware and environment, this is redundant and inefficient. > I believe that it is totally acceptable > to do a single write over RAM, but that disk storage SHOULD be dealth with > seperately with an appropriate pattern. ... so here you are basically agreeing with me? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 19:32:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06910 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06887 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from unalmodem.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.33]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA1079; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:35:57 +0500 Message-ID: <34444630.122D@asme.org> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:27:28 -0700 From: "Pedro Giffuni S," Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold [it] (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: mlduke@concentric.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book References: <3443AEA3.6364@concentric.net> <19971015081932.59889@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I think I saw it some time ago in Yahoo's FreeBSD section! Sorry, I didn't copy the bookmark. FWIW, I'm feeling tempted to write the first book in spanish about FreeBSD :-). cheers, Pedro. Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 09:40:51AM -0800, mlduke wrote: > > A man by the name of Coleman (Chris I think) is doing a FreeBSD book > > with a partner--does anyone know the web site address? > > That's news to me. I'd be interested to hear about it, though. > > Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 19:37:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07264 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07258 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-226.konnections.com (ip185-226.konnections.com [207.173.185.226]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id UAA29756; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:33:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-226.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD8E0.FA550100@ip185-226.konnections.com>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:37:24 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD8E0.FA550100@ip185-226.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: "mlduke@concentric.net" , "'Greg Lehey'" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Book Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:37:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The last address I have for Chris is: chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us He lives in Tacoma, as I recall. -Mike Allison ---------- From: Greg Lehey Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 4:49 PM To: mlduke@concentric.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 09:40:51AM -0800, mlduke wrote: > A man by the name of Coleman (Chris I think) is doing a FreeBSD book > with a partner--does anyone know the web site address? That's news to me. I'd be interested to hear about it, though. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 20:14:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09228 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:14:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09209; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:14:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id MAA06538; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:43:58 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971015124358.26418@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:43:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jlemon@americantv.com, jkb@best.com, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page References: <20988.876811315@time.cdrom.com> <199710141649.LAA04964@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710141649.LAA04964@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 11:49:06AM -0500 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 11:49:06AM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard said: >>> Question to all, particularly jkh: This guy claims 6,000,000 users of >>> Linux, obviously a very optimistic figure. If we're optimistic, how >>> high could we push the number of FreeBSD users without leaving the >>> realms of reality? >> >> Considering that the 6M figure has already left the realm of reality >> far, far behind, I guess we could say that we had 3 million users with >> equal justification. It wouldn't change the fact that it was utterly >> false, of course, but if you're trying to compete on an equal footing, >> well... :-) >> > Ahhh... they must be counting a user as a WWW page hit :-). Must be. I got a reply, which I will share when I have time to investigate it. As justification, he pointed to http://leangen.uninett.no:29659/, which shows 52334 users and 22401 machines registered. He has already moderated his claim to 5,000,000 users. Let's see, according to jkh, there are 13505 registered FreeBSD system. Assuing a linear interpolation, this means that there must be 3,000,000 FreeBSD users. Not bad, eh? jkh, how can we access the registration counters? There should be something on the web about it (along with a pointer to the Linux registration counters). Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 20:50:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11961 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11946 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:50:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02248; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710150349.UAA02248@rah.star-gate.com> To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sweet dreams are made of this... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:49:12 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:49:39 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The cover on the Magazine Fortune is much better 8) It shows Scott, in a superman outfit, flying out of this world to save the planet from the evil empire of microsoft 8) >From The Desk Of "Pedro F. Giffuni" : > > http://www.sun.com/announcement/letter.html > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 21:10:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12954 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:10:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12942 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:10:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13344; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:10:26 -0700 (PDT) To: Mike Smith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:59:00 +0930." <199710150129.KAA00726@word.smith.net.au> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:10:26 -0700 Message-ID: <13340.876888626@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I vote to kill it. It would appear that moving it to chat and being > flippant hasn't much helped people understand. I expect that the > average American male doesn't have much hope of recognising what most > of the rest of the world finds so funny about the "major" military > powers and their armed forces. Ooh, wonderful, yet another one of those gross oversimplications we've come to expect from the rest of the world, firmly locked into its comfortable and somewhat smug assumptions that all U.S. males have the same opinions and mindset regarding the use and disposition of military forces. :-) Suffice it to say that this is not true, and if the "average american male" seems to spend what may seem to be an inordinate amount of time thinking about military hardware, it's for many good reasons. We appear to have been involved in more conflicts during this century than just about anyone else, save perhaps the Israelis, and ask the average Israeli citizen just what he thinks of, say, the Galil assault rifle and you'll get back a far more detailed opinion about such things than the average american could ever give you - it's all a question of perspective and exposure and military issues are also a bit more on our minds than most and with small wonder, considering the number of yankees who've left their corpses dotting various foreign battlefields over the last 4 generations. We also spend more of our money (whether the average citizen likes it or not) on military hardware than just about anyone these days, save perhaps India, since the Soviet Union collapsed. That also tends alter one's perspective, and it's no secret that our entire economy was seriously altered by WW-II, when we managed to transform ourselves into a war material producing machine the likes of which had never been seen before. You think all those folks just went away again afterwards, content to go into other lines of work just because the war was over? :-) Also, to be fair, I think that some of the more innovative thinking about modern military dispositions has *not* come from Australia, despite what appear to be closely held (prideful? patriotic? ;-) beliefs on your part to the contrary, and if any paradigms are going to shift here it'll probably be a result of America trying to figure out how to play global cop* for a few more decades without spending quite as much on it as we are now. I don't think it's going to come about because some middle east dictator somehow manages to realize that all this hindbound thinking has left a fatal opening in our military strategy for him to exploit and gives us all a rude awakening. I think you overestimate the amount of innovation on tomorrow's battlefield, and it's no surprise that many of the tactics we're using today were invented several thousand years ago in China. Some things just don't change all that much, including the folks like yourself who come by every 10 years or so and claim to have the answers for what modern warfare will look like! :-) Jordan * And no cracks about America having a lot of chutzpah to even think it can play global cop. Like real cops, most people hate them until they actually need one, then it's "Heeeeeelp! Get your ass over here and save me right now! Forget what I said before!" It's almost enough to make a guy totally cynical. :-) From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 21:14:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13177 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:14:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13167; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:14:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13405; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:14:31 -0700 (PDT) To: Greg Lehey cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@americantv.com, jkb@best.com, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:43:58 +0930." <19971015124358.26418@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:14:30 -0700 Message-ID: <13401.876888870@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Must be. I got a reply, which I will share when I have time to > investigate it. As justification, he pointed to > http://leangen.uninett.no:29659/, which shows 52334 users and 22401 > machines registered. He has already moderated his claim to 5,000,000 > users. Let's see, according to jkh, there are 13505 registered > FreeBSD system. Assuing a linear interpolation, this means that there > must be 3,000,000 FreeBSD users. Not bad, eh? Yeah, current count is now 13887 users. You should tell that we've got almost 15000 registered systems but don't see how one can come even close to 3 million uses as a result. I still want to see his metrics. :-) > jkh, how can we access the registration counters? There should be > something on the web about it (along with a pointer to the Linux > registration counters). That would be nice, yes. :-) No time to hack out those sorts of things right now, however, so the best you guys are going to get are periodic reports. The registrations come to me (and Poul-Henning, who also signed himself up to receive them) via email and I don't have any fancy CGI stuff for exporting it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 21:42:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14811 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:42:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14805; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA06955; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:12:20 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971015141220.23141@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:12:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@americantv.com, jkb@best.com, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page References: <19971015124358.26418@lemis.com> <13401.876888870@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <13401.876888870@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 09:14:30PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 09:14:30PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Must be. I got a reply, which I will share when I have time to >> investigate it. As justification, he pointed to >> http://leangen.uninett.no:29659/, which shows 52334 users and 22401 >> machines registered. He has already moderated his claim to 5,000,000 >> users. Let's see, according to jkh, there are 13505 registered >> FreeBSD system. Assuing a linear interpolation, this means that there >> must be 3,000,000 FreeBSD users. Not bad, eh? > > Yeah, current count is now 13887 users. You should tell that we've > got almost 15000 registered systems but don't see how one can come > even close to 3 million uses as a result. I still want to see his > metrics. :-) Check out the URLs. There's something in there, but I couldn't be bothered reading it. >> jkh, how can we access the registration counters? There should be >> something on the web about it (along with a pointer to the Linux >> registration counters). > > That would be nice, yes. :-) No time to hack out those sorts of things > right now, however, so the best you guys are going to get are periodic > reports. The registrations come to me (and Poul-Henning, who also > signed himself up to receive them) via email and I don't have any > fancy CGI stuff for exporting it. Hmmm. Looks like we need a volunteer. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 21:50:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15340 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15235; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13782; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:49:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Greg Lehey cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, jlemon@americantv.com, jkb@best.com, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:12:20 +0930." <19971015141220.23141@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:49:04 -0700 Message-ID: <13779.876890944@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Check out the URLs. There's something in there, but I couldn't be > bothered reading it. I did, it doesn't say anything. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 21:56:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15804 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:56:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15799 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:56:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA13841; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:55:59 -0700 (PDT) To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux counters Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:55:59 -0700 Message-ID: <13837.876891359@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk BTW, I tried the same "word search" that the page indicates was a major factor in their user base size determination, and here's what I got: dos: 1684110 windows 95: 1282098 linux: 867343 windows nt: 747023 solaris: 269592 freebsd: 205135 [Totals were actually summed from multiple search hits, keywords like "winnt" and "win95" being also used to catch all the synonyms]. I'm just not sure what it means. Sure are a lot of people still talking about DOS, leading me to believe that this isn't a ranking of most popular OSes, this is a ranking of most *buggy* and poorly documented OSes, forcing people to discuss them in great detail on the net. By that ranking, I guess we're the most trouble free of the batch. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 14 22:40:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18789 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18774 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (max2-167.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.167]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA14171 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:40:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA22275 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:39:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710150539.AAA22275@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:14:30 PDT." <13401.876888870@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:39:57 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Must be. I got a reply, which I will share when I have time to > > investigate it. As justification, he pointed to > > http://leangen.uninett.no:29659/, which shows 52334 users and 22401 > > machines registered. He has already moderated his claim to 5,000,000 > > users. Let's see, according to jkh, there are 13505 registered > > FreeBSD system. Assuing a linear interpolation, this means that there > > must be 3,000,000 FreeBSD users. Not bad, eh? > > Yeah, current count is now 13887 users. You should tell that we've > got almost 15000 registered systems but don't see how one can come > even close to 3 million uses as a result. I still want to see his > metrics. :-) Be sure to count the users of Yahoo! and ftp.cdrom.com in your tallies. Start with a reasonable 0.1 multiplier as BSDi uses, but then how many unique users 1000 (or whatever) simultaneous user 24 hour average work out to be? Add that to the 15000 registered users, multiply by a percentage of a percentage correction factor derived from the Linux site. And eventually you can prove FreeBSD has more users than earth has humans. :-) Write it up correctly and http://www.improb.com/ will publish it. I've heard of a book or booklette named, "How to Lie With Statistics". Does this book really exist? If so, where could I find one? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 01:03:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27714 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:03:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shasta.wstein.com (joes@[207.173.11.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27677 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joes@shasta.wstein.com) Received: (from joes@localhost) by shasta.wstein.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA25998 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:03:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Stein Message-Id: <199710150803.BAA25998@shasta.wstein.com> Subject: Re: How to Lie With Statistics (fwd) To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:03:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=ELM876902587-25932-0_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk --ELM876902587-25932-0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Durned group reply... Some day, I'll learn to use a capitol 'R'... joe --ELM876902587-25932-0_ Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Description: Forwarded message from joes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: How to Lie With Statistics In-Reply-To: <199710150539.AAA22275@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "dkelly@hiwaay.net" at "Oct 15, 97 00:39:57 am" To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:59:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 327 > I've heard of a book or booklette named, "How to Lie With Statistics". > Does this book really exist? If so, where could I find one? Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon has a few copies -- go to http://www.powells.com/ ISBN 0-393-31072-8, goes new for $7.95. Written by Huff, Darrell. More than you wanted to know? joe --ELM876902587-25932-0_-- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 13:53:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29333 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (passer.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.110.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29314 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:52:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cschuber@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.6.10) id NAA05135 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710152052.NAA05135@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdaaAxAa; Wed Oct 15 13:52:44 1997 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 Reply-to: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-Sender: cschuber To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: MS Space? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:52:43 -0700 From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This should brighten your day. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 UNIX Support OV/VM: BCSC02(CSCHUBER) ITSD BITNET: CSCHUBER@BCSC02.BITNET Government of BC Internet: cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca Cy.Schubert@gems8.gov.bc.ca "Quit spooling around, JES do it." ------- Forwarded Message Resent: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:52:00 -0700 Resent: cy@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca Forwarded: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:51:18 -0700 Forwarded: miarmstr@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca Forwarded: 71231.3005@compuserve.com Delivery-Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:54:01 -0700 Return-Path: prblake@perch.osg.gov.bc.ca Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.6.10) id MAA32052 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orca.gov.bc.ca(142.32.102.25) via SMTP by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca, id smtpdaajcCa; Wed Oct 15 12:53:39 1997 Received: from perch.osg.gov.bc.ca by orca.gov.bc.ca (5.4R3.10/200.1.1.4) id AA04903; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:53:38 -0700 Message-Id: <9710151953.AA04903@orca.gov.bc.ca> Received: (qmail 28888 invoked from network); 15 Oct 1997 19:57:56 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO perch.osg.gov.bc.ca) (prblake@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 15 Oct 1997 19:57:56 -0000 Reply-To: pblake@uumail.gov.bc.ca X-Mailer: xmh To: rheron@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca, cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca, Ken.Lee@gems8.gov.bc.ca, pemcmull@uumail.gov.bc.ca, rjewula@galaxy.gov.bc.ca, bjsieben@newt.osg.gov.bc.ca, dhutchinson@galaxy.gov.bc.ca, lltso@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca, pcmacdon@tadpole.osg.gov.bc.ca, sgrant@torvm3.vnet.ibm.com, john.a.edgington@gems.gov.bc.ca, hurstad@muss.cis.mcmaster.ca, davem@torvm3.vnet.ibm.com, holubeshen@bc.sympatico.ca, Steven.Radin@gems9.gov.bc.ca, cafletch@shaw.wave.ca, ilrathie@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca Cc: posslq@inetex.com Subject: MS Space? Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:57:55 -0700 From: Peter Blake Top 10 Signs the New Mir Computer is Running Windows 95 # 10: The computer keeps asking you to "Insert Setup Disk #3 to continue" #9: There is no space left on the hard drive to store mission data. #8: The computer refuses to interact with the Mir's "Mr. Java" coffee maker. #7: Millions of dollars are traced to phone calls to a Redmond, WA 900#. #6: Mir astronauts are caught stealing RAM from other satellite's computers to keep their system running. #5: The Space Shuttle can no longer dock with Mir since "the proper driver cannot be found" #4: The system locks up whenever the astronauts try to run life support, the solar panels and thrusters at the same time. #3: The astronauts spend three days looking for cyrillic version of the CTRL-ALT-DEL keys. #2: Alien ships secretly observing Mir flee in terror. And the number one sign the new Mir computer is running Windows 95.... #1: You start receiving welcoming e-mail from the Borg The Box said 'Windows '95 or better' - So I used a Macintosh! - Harold Herbert Tessman ------- End of Forwarded Message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 14:27:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04093 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:27:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04036; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:27:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18102; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27291; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:27:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: Greg Lehey cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jlemon@americantv.com, jkb@best.com, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: <19971015124358.26418@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > Must be. I got a reply, which I will share when I have time to > investigate it. As justification, he pointed to > http://leangen.uninett.no:29659/, which shows 52334 users and 22401 > machines registered. He has already moderated his claim to 5,000,000 > users. Let's see, according to jkh, there are 13505 registered > FreeBSD system. Assuing a linear interpolation, this means that there > must be 3,000,000 FreeBSD users. Not bad, eh? Ahh, but the registration thingy wasn't introduced until fairly late in the game. Since we're now at 3.0, and it was introduced at 2.0, that would mean it's only been existant for 1/3 of the time of FreeBSD's existance. We'd have to multiply the 3 million number by 3 to get 3/3, covering 100% of FreeBSD's lifetime. That gives us 9 000 000 users. However, the registration process wasn't introduced until long after 2.0 and we're not at 3.0. We need to account for this. Since there were 7 releasses after and including 2.0 until 2.2, which means that between 2.3 and 3.0 we should get another 24.5 releases. Since FreeBSD accumlated 3 000 000 over 7 releases, (we don't take the 9 000 000 number here, since that refers to FreeBSD's users over it's lifetime -> 3.0), we have to add 24.5 * 3 000 000 more users. This means that we have 9 000 000 + 73 500 000 users, for a total of 82 500 000. Because FreeBSD is easier than Linux to install on a non-Internet computer, we need to account for the additional percentage of users who couldn't register due to lack of net connectivity that we have _over and above_ the percentage that Linux has. I'll arbitrarily estimate the % of Linux non-Internet users at 20% (this comes from 30% of the populace having net access and 60% of the populace having a computer, so 30% * 60% = 18%, then round down to so the Linux folks can't accuse us of being unfair to them). Since FreeBSD is a conservative 50% easier to install on a non-Internet machine than Linux (thanks to our single boot floppy and jkh's wonderful sysinstall), we take the 20% and double it to get FreeBSD's percentage of non-Internet users. This gives 40%. Subtract 20% to get what we have over and above Linux. Since these weren't accounted for (remember our 3000000 number is extrapolated from 13500 systems in the same ratio as 6000000 from 2200 Linux machines). This means we have 82500000 * 1.2 = 99000000. This is basically equal to 100 000 000 users. When we finally round to take into account the significant digits in our input numbers, we are left with only 0 users, however. :-( -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 18:07:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA23377 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ng.netgate.net (narf@ng.netgate.net [204.145.147.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23366 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narf@ng.netgate.net) Received: (from narf@localhost) by ng.netgate.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA00763; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:08:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Clark To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Release Date For 2.2.5? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Is there a definate, or even tenative date for 2.2.5-RELEASE? I was wondering if it would be worthwhile putting off installing 2.2.2 in favor of the upcoming 2.2.5. --matt Clark From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 19:14:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA26475 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:14:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from majesticnet.com (host2.majestic.sysci.org [205.227.182.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26470 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:14:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian@majesticnet.com) Received: (from ian@localhost) by majesticnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14283; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:30:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Struble To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Andreas Klemm , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jkb , Jonathan Lemon Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 14-Oct-97 Greg Lehey wrote: > >Why not give this guy the benefit of the doubt? I'll send him the >comparison that I plan to print in "The Complete FreeBSD", and offer >to investigate the grey areas, like driver support. > >Question to all, particularly jkh: This guy claims 6,000,000 users of >Linux, obviously a very optimistic figure. If we're optimistic, how >high could we push the number of FreeBSD users without leaving the >realms of reality? In the Oct 13 NetworkWorld on pg 21, there is a figure of 3-10 million linux users worldwide, so this 6 million figure may be a reasonable number. There is also an article ("Linux flexes its Internet muscle") that goes on about how linux does this and that and washes your dishes. FreeBSDdoes/supports most if not all of the same things except maybe support Microsoft Server Block protocol. On a more FreeBSD note, I read something in SunExpert(1-2 months ago?) that was touting FreeBSD loud and clear. I have been off the mailing lists for a few months but I will see if I can't find the article again if someone wants to read it themselves. Ian From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 19:27:09 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27092 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:27:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from majesticnet.com (host2.majestic.sysci.org [205.227.182.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27087 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian@majesticnet.com) Received: (from ian@localhost) by majesticnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14301; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199710150539.AAA22275@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:23:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Struble To: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 15-Oct-97 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: >Be sure to count the users of Yahoo! and ftp.cdrom.com in your tallies. >Start with a reasonable 0.1 multiplier as BSDi uses, but then how many >unique users 1000 (or whatever) simultaneous user 24 hour average work >out to be? Add that to the 15000 registered users, multiply by a >percentage of a percentage correction factor derived from the Linux >site. And eventually you can prove FreeBSD has more users than earth >has humans. :-) > >Write it up correctly and http://www.improb.com/ will publish it. > >I've heard of a book or booklette named, "How to Lie With Statistics". >Does this book really exist? If so, where could I find one? Go talk to a Statistics Professor at your nearest University. I am sure they could give you some pointers. 'Give me a statistic and I can prove anything' is something that one of my Stats profs used to say. And I tend to believe him! Ian From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 20:33:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00433 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00422 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA19935; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:02:21 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971016130217.43807@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:02:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ian Struble Cc: Rich Morin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Ian Struble on Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 06:30:42PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 06:30:42PM -0700, Ian Struble wrote: > > On 14-Oct-97 Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> Why not give this guy the benefit of the doubt? I'll send him the >> comparison that I plan to print in "The Complete FreeBSD", and offer >> to investigate the grey areas, like driver support. >> >> Question to all, particularly jkh: This guy claims 6,000,000 users of >> Linux, obviously a very optimistic figure. If we're optimistic, how >> high could we push the number of FreeBSD users without leaving the >> realms of reality? > > In the Oct 13 NetworkWorld on pg 21, there is a figure of 3-10 million linux > users worldwide, so this 6 million figure may be a reasonable number. There > is also an article ("Linux flexes its Internet muscle") that goes on about how > linux does this and that and washes your dishes. FreeBSDdoes/supports most if > not all of the same things except maybe support Microsoft Server Block protocol. Is that something else than SMB? We support that. I've just finished installing, testing, and documenting it. > On a more FreeBSD note, I read something in SunExpert(1-2 months ago?) that was > touting FreeBSD loud and clear. I have been off the mailing lists for a few > months but I will see if I can't find the article again if someone wants to read > it themselves. Yes, we discussed it. It was written by Rich Morin. He was going to get permission for us to distribute it, but he hasn't got back to me yet. Hey, Rich, how about it? Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 20:34:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00476 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:34:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00467 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:33:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id NAA19997; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:03:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971016130306.15812@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:03:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ian Struble Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <199710150539.AAA22275@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Ian Struble on Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 07:23:00PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 07:23:00PM -0700, Ian Struble wrote: > > On 15-Oct-97 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: >> Be sure to count the users of Yahoo! and ftp.cdrom.com in your tallies. >> Start with a reasonable 0.1 multiplier as BSDi uses, but then how many >> unique users 1000 (or whatever) simultaneous user 24 hour average work >> out to be? Add that to the 15000 registered users, multiply by a >> percentage of a percentage correction factor derived from the Linux >> site. And eventually you can prove FreeBSD has more users than earth >> has humans. :-) >> >> Write it up correctly and http://www.improb.com/ will publish it. >> >> I've heard of a book or booklette named, "How to Lie With Statistics". >> Does this book really exist? If so, where could I find one? > > Go talk to a Statistics Professor at your nearest University. I am > sure they could give you some pointers. 'Give me a statistic and I > can prove anything' is something that one of my Stats profs used to say. > And I tend to believe him! I remember that somebody I worked with had discovered a positive correlation between orange juice consumption and testicle size. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 20:58:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01548 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:58:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01540 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:58:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA15035; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:52:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: Mike Allison cc: "mlduke@concentric.net" , "'Greg Lehey'" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Book In-Reply-To: <01BCD8E0.FA550100@ip185-226.konnections.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk The URL is http://vinyl.quickweb.com/fbsd-book/ Annelise On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Mike Allison wrote: > The last address I have for Chris is: > > chris@aries.bb.cc.wa.us > > He lives in Tacoma, as I recall. > > -Mike Allison > > ---------- > From: Greg Lehey > Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 4:49 PM > To: mlduke@concentric.net > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Book > > On Tue, Oct 14, 1997 at 09:40:51AM -0800, mlduke wrote: > > A man by the name of Coleman (Chris I think) is doing a FreeBSD book > > with a partner--does anyone know the web site address? > > That's news to me. I'd be interested to hear about it, though. > > Greg > > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 21:05:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA01893 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user23682@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01874 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 16 Oct 1997 04:09:50 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:09:50 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: (snip, snip, ...) > Because FreeBSD is easier than Linux to install on a non-Internet > computer, (snip, snip, ...) Come on, guys. I hate seeing the "good guys" stoop to the level of the competition. Tim's statement is very opinionated, with about as much substantiation as Linux's 6 million users. We need to stay away from arbitrary, opinionated comments like the above. I personally feel Linux's installation is easier than FreeBSD's, especially Red Hat Linux. Slackware is not bad either. The "installation" I am speaking of is primarily: 1) Setting up partitions 2) Installing kernel 3) making devices 4) installing system binaries 5) generating a working /etc directory I think Linux's install routines for these processes are typically easier. I think FreeBSD excels in: 1) Application software (ports and packages are excellent) 2) Security (much more secure out-of-box) 3) Patches and updates (due to unified source) Since these steps can also be considered "install"-related, FreeBSD puts up a fight, but I think we need to be careful here. Let's stick to the facts if we are going to flame the unsubstantiated :) Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 21:39:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03601 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03596 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA22758; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:39:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Matt Clark cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Release Date For 2.2.5? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:08:09 PDT." Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:39:13 -0700 Message-ID: <22754.876976753@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk There's a very definite date: October 20th. It'll probably be up for FTP sometime around the 22nd or so - I need a couple of days to make sure it's all kosher and I don't need to slide any tags forward. During that interval, CTM generation will also halt. Jordan > Is there a definate, or even tenative date for 2.2.5-RELEASE? I was > wondering if it would be worthwhile putting off installing 2.2.2 in favor > of the upcoming 2.2.5. > > --matt Clark From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 21:42:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03767 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03762 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:42:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA22775; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:42:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Ian Struble cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Andreas Klemm , jkb , Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:30:42 PDT." Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:42:11 -0700 Message-ID: <22771.876976931@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > In the Oct 13 NetworkWorld on pg 21, there is a figure of 3-10 million linux > users worldwide, so this 6 million figure may be a reasonable number. There Hmph. "We have approximately 3 million users, possibly even as many as 10 million, so I guess we'll set a reasonable estimate at 6 million." Say what? Am I the only one who's twigged to the number game going on here? :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:06:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04754 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:06:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04737 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id OAA24576; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:35:29 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971016143529.60886@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:35:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Ian Struble , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Andreas Klemm , jkb , Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <22771.876976931@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <22771.876976931@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 09:42:11PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 09:42:11PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> In the Oct 13 NetworkWorld on pg 21, there is a figure of 3-10 million linux >> users worldwide, so this 6 million figure may be a reasonable number. There > > Hmph. "We have approximately 3 million users, possibly even as many > as 10 million, so I guess we'll set a reasonable estimate at 6 > million." > > Say what? Am I the only one who's twigged to the number game going on > here? :-) I don't think you can be that sure about the upper and lower limits. I'd say there must be at least 25,000, because we've counted them. But are you sure that there are no more than 10,000,000? How can you be sure? I'd say it's possible that there are 20,000,000. Of course, I can't be sure about that, either. Let's split the difference (20,000,000 + 25,000)/2 = 10,000,000 within the limits of measurement error :-) Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:15:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05251 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:15:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from elmira.functional.com (elmira.functional.com [198.82.216.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05243 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:15:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grail@elmira.functional.com) Received: (from grail@localhost) by elmira.functional.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08213; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:14:31 GMT Message-ID: <19971016051430.34208@functional.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:14:30 +0000 From: Giao Nguyen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Ian Struble , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Andreas Klemm , jkb , Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <22771.876976931@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <22771.876976931@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 09:42:11PM -0700 Organization: FIS Technologies X-Saying: Maniacal laughter is the best medicine. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > Say what? Am I the only one who's twigged to the number game going on > here? :-) I think so. I think there's only one FreeBSD user, Jordan. =) -- Giao Nguyen From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:16:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05303 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05288 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA23047; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:15:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Greg Lehey cc: Ian Struble , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Andreas Klemm , jkb , Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:35:29 +0930." <19971016143529.60886@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:15:50 -0700 Message-ID: <23043.876978950@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Of course, I can't be sure about that, either. Let's split the > difference (20,000,000 + 25,000)/2 = 10,000,000 within the limits of > measurement error :-) Or, as I put it during my last BOF talk at USENIX when someone asked me for an estimate, "plus or minus an order of magnitude" :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:37:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06017 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06010 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA12352; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:43:32 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:43:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160543.XAA12352@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Christopher R. Bowman" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Bill of Wrongs (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-Reply-To: References: <199710141240.FAA01458@usr02.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher R. Bowman writes, w.r.t. the FBI position on encryption: > The real problem is that it violates article four of the bill of rights. > To force everyone to leave their front door open because > a few people might be storing contraband is unreasonable and > thus these actions violate our 4 amendment rights. Sadly > our Supreme Court hasn't quite seen it this way (see for example > court decisions up holding sobriety check points) and we the > people have refused to help them see the light. Freeh's position also violates the first amendment; the constitution places no limits on how we are allowed to express ourselves. Encryption (and its cousin, encoding) are merely forms of expression. This is why the government restrictions on crypto technology have always raised the spectre of "national security," which is government-speak for "damn the constitution, full authority ahead!" -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:38:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06095 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06088 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:38:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA15221; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:37:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-Reply-To: <13340.876888626@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > battlefields over the last 4 generations. We also spend more of our > money (whether the average citizen likes it or not) on military > hardware than just about anyone these days, save perhaps India, since > the Soviet Union collapsed. That also tends alter one's perspective, I doubt that any country's military budget (or just the hardware part of it) is larger than that of the United States. Nevertheless, the percentage of Gross Domestic Product spent on defense (function 050 of the federal budget) has dropped from 6.3% in 1987 to about 3.5% in 1997, and declined in real terms (outlays adjusted for inflation) by about 30 percent. The GDP percentage is lower (and going below 3 percent in a few years) than at any time since BEFORE World War II. This is, in effect, a rapid demobilization, with cutbacks across the board--R&D, procurement, personnel, training, etc. The defense budget varies quite a lot (as a percentage of GDP) over time, and there are considerable pressures to reduce defense spending (and spend on other things), so while the defense budget remains pretty big ($250+ billion), it's basically never really out of control; unlike spending on health and retirement, it's not politically untouchable. Federal outlays for social security are greater than those for national defense, as are federal outlays for Medicare + Medicaid. Well, those are just a few facts. I'm just not sure we really know at this point what we might not be capable of doing--the view is generally that we couldn't do today what we did in the Gulf War. My view of being the world's cop is being able just to say "Hey you over there, I wouldn't do that if I were you...." Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:38:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06116 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06094 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:38:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA24726; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:08:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971016150838.02176@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:08:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: Rich Morin Subject: The SunExpert article References: ; <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> <19971016130217.43807@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Rich Morin on Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 09:40:59PM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've had a reply from Rich Morin enclosing the text of his article--unfortunately in MS Wart for the Mac. Can anybody do anything with this? It's available at ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/9708_A_Successor_for_SunOS_1.do. Here's Rich's message. Greg On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 09:40:59PM -0700, Rich Morin wrote: > >> Yes, we discussed it. It was written by Rich Morin. He was going to >> get permission for us to distribute it, but he hasn't got back to me >> yet. Hey, Rich, how about it? > > Sorry about that; I've been swamped. It appears that its OK with > the editor if you reprint it online (just keep it accurate and give > appropriate attribution). I am enclosing a MW 5.1 (MacOS) copy of a > late draft, in case that helps... Please send me the URL when it > goes online! > > -r > > Rich Morin, Canta Forda Computer Laboratory | Prime Time Freeware - quality > UNIX consulting, training, and writing | freeware at affordable prices > P.O. Box 1488, Pacifica, CA, 94044, USA | www.ptf.com info@ptf.com > rdm@cfcl.com +1 650-873-7841 | +1 408-433-9662 -0727 (Fax) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:41:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06264 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06256 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA12358; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:48:07 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:48:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160548.XAA12358@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Eivind Eklund CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199710141827.UAA16499@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199710140424.XAA17794@nospam.hiwaay.net> <199710141240.FAA01458@usr02.primenet.com> <199710141827.UAA16499@bitbox.follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund writes: > According to my recent reading (probably in Wired) they wanted to drop > that boring 'court order' part and go with only needing a subpoena... In the U.S., a subpoena is a court order. In the case of the FBI, it would have to be signed by a Federal Judge with jurisdiction over the case. On the other hand, I'm led to believe (by remote social acquaintances who are FBI agents) that Federal Judges give FBI agents signed blank subpoenas and search warrants like candy. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 22:57:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07045 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07040 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA12373; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160604.AAA12373@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Mike Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199710150043.KAA00590@word.smith.net.au> References: <199710141601.KAA10425@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199710150043.KAA00590@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith writes: > > > > There are no incidences in which pages are returned to you with previous > > random cruft left in them? > > There shouldn't be, no. In that case, I assume fill-on-allocation would be suffice. Of course, you'll have to *prove* there aren't any cases. ;^) > > And besides, zero-filling memory isn't sufficient, it has to be > > overwritten a number of times to make sure now residual information can > > be obtained. These standards date back to core and even mercury-wire > > memory. Yes, I've actually worked with computers that feature *both* in > > my career. ;^) > > If you can suggest how one goes about obtaining "residual" information > from a saturated logic device in a synchronous memory subsystem, I'd be > very interested in hearing it. > > Or is this more specification paranoia? Of course it's specification paranoia, that's exactly the point. Several different people in this discussion have been trying to discuss the INTENT of the specifications, and/or enforce USABLE standards. Neither of these apply, this is a standard developed by the US Department of Defense and National Security Agency, er, excuse me, No Such Agency. They don't have to make sense, nor do they have to be usable, but you still have to follow them. On the other hand, consider that your bzero is used to zero-fill disk pages as well, and you *CAN* recover latent information off a disk, even after it has been overwritten several times, if you try really hard. Come to think of it, I think this is probably why most secure UNIX systems do overwrite on free rather than overwrite on allocation. Every disk block that is returned to the free list has to be overwritten before it can be given to any new process, including via the disk device drivers. This kind of stuff gets really messy, and requires a lot of thorough work to get right. I suggest for anyone who is really interested in this, see if Sun still has any white papers, design notes, etc. for their C2-secure SunOS; they might give you some insight into what changes would have to be made to secure FreeBSD. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 23:08:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07586 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:08:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07577 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:08:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA12386; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:15:03 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:15:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160615.AAA12386@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Brian Haskin CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <344420F8.E4B912C7@ptway.com> References: <199710150043.KAA00590@word.smith.net.au> <344420F8.E4B912C7@ptway.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Brian Haskin writes: > I believe that Mr. Peters is confusing the standard for erasing > something that has been written to disk with this. Although you can do > the same with ram (as far as recovering previously stored information) I > don't think that they make you write over it a hundred time for each > malloc free sequence. No, not confusing, just asserting that they are the same. Of course, when I worked in that industry, the computer I was working on had plated-wire memory and was *more* persistent than our drum storage. If you stop thinking of "RAM" and start thinking of "allocated page" you'll see why, even in a modern system, the requirements for clearing memory haven't been relaxed too much. You have to scrub data off the VM pages on the swap device before returning them to the pool, or before allocating them to a process. I assume you could probably get by with a bzero for ram and overwrite for disk pages, if you can get whatever RAM you are using certified that a single overwrite will erase the memory sufficiently to prevent the next process from gleaning any useful information. Yes, drum storage and plated-wire memory. They're still running today, and you'd *all* better hope they never screw up. ;^) And yes, when we deallocated a block of memory that had held classified data, we overwrote it 200 times. This was an A-level secure system, and had some features you won't find on anything you're likely to touch. Our comm links, for instance, consisted of sealed wires inside a conduit filled with pressurized oil. In order to physically tap the wire, you had to puncture the conduit, which would cause a drop in oil pressure, which turned off the comm link at both ends and set off alarms all over the country. Literally. If you think that's funky, you should see the specification for Anti-Jam transmission mode. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 23:17:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08071 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:17:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08064 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA12392; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:21:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160621.AAA12392@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: References: <199710150202.VAA21041@nospam.hiwaay.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher G. Petrilli writes: > It simply as to be cleared, that's all the requirements states. As for > deallocate/allocate, that's a "preference", and in fact can be done on > either because according to the TCSEC returning memory to the TCB (i.e. > kernel) is not technically a change of ownership because the TCB is not an > owner in the sense that this applies to. The TCB is trusted, therefore yo > ucan do the clear on allocate, which is substantially easier over the long > haul, and is what is commonly done. Right, I'd fallen into the trap of thinking of the system as "root." This is, of course, not true on secure systems. ;^) > And Microsoft claims that NT is C2---they just forget that you can't have > a network or floppy. :-) DEC made VMS C2 somewhere along the way, so I guess it wouldn't be that much of a trip to make VMS Jr. C2 as well. Which still doesn't answer the question "why would anybody want that?" ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 23:19:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08202 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08197 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA12395; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:24:51 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:24:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160624.AAA12395@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Mike Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199710150140.LAA00804@word.smith.net.au> References: <199710150140.LAA00804@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith writes: > Please note that I am *not* questioning whether, given analog access to > the storage device, previous data state(s) can be recovered; this is a > given. > > What I *am* questioning is why this is a requirement in a purely > software environment, where it is not possible via software to > determine anything other than the current value of a given storage > location. > > The only methods for obtaining the previous contents of a storage > location involve physical analog access to the hardware, and if you > have this then system security has already been compromised because you > could have recorded the original value when it was current. Not according to the crowd of ex-Iomega engineers I work with. With access to the head controls and the data splitter (i.e. poking around behaving like a device driver) you can do some pretty mysterious things to a disk drive. With more modern devices like IDE and SCSI, where the controller is embedded on the drive and you have limited access to the data stream, this is probably not quite so true, but still dangerous enough you're not going to convince the US gummint to change their collective mind (sic). -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 23:24:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08502 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08463 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id HAA22637; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:15:26 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00811; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:09:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971016080918.15305@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:09:18 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Ian Struble Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <19971014112528.09598@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: ; from Ian Struble on Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 06:30:42PM -0700 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 06:30:42PM -0700, Ian Struble wrote: > On a more FreeBSD note, I read something in SunExpert(1-2 months ago?) > that was touting FreeBSD loud and clear. I have been off the mailing > lists for a few months but I will see if I can't find the article > again if someone wants to read it themselves. What's SunExpert ? An online magazine ? -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' andreas@klemm.gtn.com - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html andreas@FreeBSD.ORG - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 23:25:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08559 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08550 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01540; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:52:09 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710160622.PAA01540@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: Mike Smith , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:24:51 CST." <199710160624.AAA12395@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 15:52:09 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > The only methods for obtaining the previous contents of a storage > > location involve physical analog access to the hardware, and if you > > have this then system security has already been compromised because you > > could have recorded the original value when it was current. > > Not according to the crowd of ex-Iomega engineers I work with. With > access to the head controls and the data splitter (i.e. poking around > behaving like a device driver) you can do some pretty mysterious things > to a disk drive. Unfortunately for this, Wes, we were talking about _*DRAM*_. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 23:31:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09044 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:31:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09033 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA12410; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:39:01 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:39:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160639.AAA12410@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-Reply-To: <13340.876888626@time.cdrom.com> References: <199710150129.KAA00726@word.smith.net.au> <13340.876888626@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > Ooh, wonderful, yet another one of those gross oversimplications we've > come to expect from the rest of the world, firmly locked into its > comfortable and somewhat smug assumptions that all U.S. males have the > same opinions and mindset regarding the use and disposition of > military forces. :-) Jordan, Terry and I, for instance, could probably go on endlessly about the various virtues of advanced aircraft vs. space-based energy weapons vs. one *really good* missile. We agree on very little except that we really ought to have the biggest guns. Might makes Right. > Suffice it to say that this is not true, and if the "average american > male" seems to spend what may seem to be an inordinate amount of time > thinking about military hardware, it's for many good reasons. For instance, keeping all you little piss-ant countries in line. ;^) > I think you overestimate the amount of innovation on > tomorrow's battlefield, and it's no surprise that many of the tactics > we're using today were invented several thousand years ago in China. For instance, that really cool manuever Stormin' Norman used to snocker the "million man army" is called "Hannibal's Wheel." Any guesses as to why it's called that? Hint: The original armored vehicles used in this manuever were elephants. Those who don't understand history are doomed to be sqaushed by it. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 15 23:36:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09423 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:36:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09411 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 23:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA12419; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:44:21 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:44:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160644.AAA12419@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux counters In-Reply-To: <13837.876891359@time.cdrom.com> References: <13837.876891359@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > dos: 1684110 > windows 95: 1282098 > linux: 867343 > windows nt: 747023 > solaris: 269592 > freebsd: 205135 > > I'm just not sure what it means. Sure are a lot of people still > talking about DOS, leading me to believe that this isn't a ranking of > most popular OSes, this is a ranking of most *buggy* and poorly > documented OSes, forcing people to discuss them in great detail on the > net. By that ranking, I guess we're the most trouble free of the > batch. :-) I'll go along with that. The ranking looks just about right, too. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 00:06:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA10820 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:06:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10813 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id BAA12512; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:13:22 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:13:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160713.BAA12512@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: gGNU tools? (was Re: Testing result, 225Beta, oct 7th.) In-Reply-To: <199710151408.KAA22288@daria.cdnow.com> References: <199710151408.KAA22288@daria.cdnow.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk A. Karl Heller writes: > Any time I install a GNU util on a system I will always place a "g" in > front of the name. Of course, some people ask me what the heck "ggrep" is... One better than fgrep? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 00:21:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11458 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:21:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11453 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:21:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01812; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:48:04 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710160718.QAA01812@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:39:01 CST." <199710160639.AAA12410@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:48:01 +0930 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Ooh, wonderful, yet another one of those gross oversimplications we've > > come to expect from the rest of the world, firmly locked into its > > comfortable and somewhat smug assumptions that all U.S. males have the > > same opinions and mindset regarding the use and disposition of > > military forces. :-) > > Jordan, Terry and I, for instance, could probably go on endlessly about > the various virtues of advanced aircraft vs. space-based energy weapons > vs. one *really good* missile. We agree on very little except that we > really ought to have the biggest guns. Might makes Right. Ie. not only are we comfortable and smug, but we're _right_ too. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 00:28:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11733 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11726 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:28:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA23698; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:28:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Annelise Anderson cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Oct 1997 22:37:59 PDT." Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:28:14 -0700 Message-ID: <23694.876986894@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I doubt that any country's military budget (or just the hardware part > of it) is larger than that of the United States. Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant this as a percentage of GNP. Do you happen to know who the highest military spenders by GNP currently are? You appear to have good access to statistical data. ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 00:40:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12526 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12520 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA00671; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710160739.AAA00671@rah.star-gate.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ian Struble , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Andreas Klemm , jkb , Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:35:29 +0930." <19971016143529.60886@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:39:58 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hmm... I think that we ought to advertise more that we need people to register or "vote" their use of FreeBSD. I have been on companies were employees happily carted their PCs in to install freebsd or some other flavor of Unix;other companies , have "farms" of FreeBSD . I wouldn't be surprised if any one of those companies which uses FreeBSD as a product alone exceed our counter of registered users 8) Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of Greg Lehey : > On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 09:42:11PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> In the Oct 13 NetworkWorld on pg 21, there is a figure of 3-10 million lin ux > >> users worldwide, so this 6 million figure may be a reasonable number. The re > > > > Hmph. "We have approximately 3 million users, possibly even as many > > as 10 million, so I guess we'll set a reasonable estimate at 6 > > million." > > > > Say what? Am I the only one who's twigged to the number game going on > > here? :-) > > I don't think you can be that sure about the upper and lower limits. > I'd say there must be at least 25,000, because we've counted them. > But are you sure that there are no more than 10,000,000? How can you > be sure? I'd say it's possible that there are 20,000,000. > > Of course, I can't be sure about that, either. Let's split the > difference (20,000,000 + 25,000)/2 = 10,000,000 within the limits of > measurement error :-) > > Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 00:48:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13027 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:48:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13015 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:48:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id BAA12550; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:55:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:55:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710160755.BAA12550@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Mike Smith CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199710160622.PAA01540@word.smith.net.au> References: <199710160624.AAA12395@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199710160622.PAA01540@word.smith.net.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith writes: > Unfortunately for this, Wes, we were talking about _*DRAM*_. Uh, no, we were talking about recently freed VM pages. Tell me you can guarantee those'll never end up on persistent media. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 00:49:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13093 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13078 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA00554; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:19:24 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971016171924.39813@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:19:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: gGNU tools? (was Re: Testing result, 225Beta, oct 7th.) References: <199710151408.KAA22288@daria.cdnow.com> <199710160713.BAA12512@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710160713.BAA12512@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Oct 16, 1997 at 01:13:22AM -0600 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Oct 16, 1997 at 01:13:22AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > A. Karl Heller writes: >> Any time I install a GNU util on a system I will always place a "g" in >> front of the name. Of course, some people ask me what the heck "ggrep" is... > > One better than fgrep? ;^) No, I've ggot a kkeyboarrd likke thatt too. GGreg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 00:52:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13372 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13360 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 00:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id RAA00565; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:20:23 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19971016172023.11717@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:20:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Ian Struble , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Andreas Klemm , jkb , Jonathan Lemon Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <19971016143529.60886@lemis.com> <199710160739.AAA00671@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710160739.AAA00671@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Thu, Oct 16, 1997 at 12:39:58AM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8250 Fax: +61-8-8388-8250 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Fight-Spam-Now: http://www.cauce.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, Oct 16, 1997 at 12:39:58AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Hmm... > > I think that we ought to advertise more that we need people to register > or "vote" their use of FreeBSD. I have been on companies were > employees happily carted their PCs in to install freebsd or some > other flavor of Unix;other companies , have "farms" of FreeBSD . I > wouldn't be surprised if any one of those companies which uses > FreeBSD as a product alone exceed our counter of registered users 8) We certainly should advertise it more, and make the figures available. That sort of thing interests people. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 01:10:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA14605 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from radford.i-plus.net (root@Radford.i-Plus.net [206.99.237.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA14598 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:10:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rewt@i-Plus.net) Received: from totally.nutty.net (insane@dead.i-Plus.net [206.99.237.44]) by radford.i-plus.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA05107; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: "Troy Settle" From: "Troy Settle" To: "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re: The SunExpert article Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 04:15:08 -0400 Message-ID: <01bcda0b$9d7ad6e0$2ced63ce@totally.nutty.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk unedited html version at http://www.i-plus.net/~st/stuff/9708_A_Successor_for_SunOS_1.htm -- Troy Settle Network Administrator, iPlus Internet Services http://www.i-Plus.net -----Original Message----- From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: Rich Morin Date: Thursday, October 16, 1997 2:15 AM Subject: The SunExpert article >I've had a reply from Rich Morin enclosing the text of his >article--unfortunately in MS Wart for the Mac. Can anybody do >anything with this? It's available at >ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/9708_A_Successor_for_SunOS_1.do. > >Here's Rich's message. > >Greg > >On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 09:40:59PM -0700, Rich Morin wrote: >> >>> Yes, we discussed it. It was written by Rich Morin. He was going to >>> get permission for us to distribute it, but he hasn't got back to me >>> yet. Hey, Rich, how about it? >> >> Sorry about that; I've been swamped. It appears that its OK with >> the editor if you reprint it online (just keep it accurate and give >> appropriate attribution). I am enclosing a MW 5.1 (MacOS) copy of a >> late draft, in case that helps... Please send me the URL when it >> goes online! >> >> -r >> >> Rich Morin, Canta Forda Computer Laboratory | Prime Time Freeware - quality >> UNIX consulting, training, and writing | freeware at affordable prices >> P.O. Box 1488, Pacifica, CA, 94044, USA | www.ptf.com info@ptf.com >> rdm@cfcl.com +1 650-873-7841 | +1 408-433-9662 -0727 (Fax) > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 01:42:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA16384 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:42:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from murkwood.gaffaneys.com (dialup2.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16379 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 01:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@gaffaneys.com) Received: (from zach@localhost) by murkwood.gaffaneys.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id DAA23179; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:43:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Zach Heilig Message-ID: <19971016034300.34101@gaffaneys.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 03:43:00 -0500 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ironic picture... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In our local paper today (Wednesday) there was a rather ironic picture. On the corner of the main intersection in North Dakota [well, it's supposed to be the busiest intersection in ND anyway], some anti-drunk driving group [MADD] installed a smashed up sheriff's car. The sign behind the car reads "Please make drinking & driving a thing of the past in memory of Deputy Sheriff Luther F Klug". This is so far a powerful setting. But enter two billboards facing the car, one to the north and the other to the east. The north billboard just happens to be an advertisment for Canadian Windsor... the east billboard displaying an advertisement for Coor's Light. BTW, the car [installed Monday] was moved today [Wednesday] after the picture was published. Coincidence? perhaps... I found it later in a much less visible location. The link to just the picture is: http://www.gfherald.com/art2/1015madcar.jpg and the story is http://www.gfherald.com/news/news.htm/. Since that is now yesterday, news story might not still be there. -- Zach Heilig From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 05:30:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA25350 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA25343 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 05:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199710161228.IAA24340@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <19971016130306.15812@lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, Oct 15, 1997 at 07:23:00PM -0700, Ian Struble wrote: > > > > On 15-Oct-97 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > >> Be sure to count the users of Yahoo! and ftp.cdrom.com in your tallies. > >> Start with a reasonable 0.1 multiplier as BSDi uses, but then how many > >> unique users 1000 (or whatever) simultaneous user 24 hour average work > >> out to be? Add that to the 15000 registered users, multiply by a > >> percentage of a percentage correction factor derived from the Linux > >> site. And eventually you can prove FreeBSD has more users than earth > >> has humans. :-) > >> > >> Write it up correctly and http://www.improb.com/ will publish it. > >> > >> I've heard of a book or booklette named, "How to Lie With Statistics". > >> Does this book really exist? If so, where could I find one? > > > > Go talk to a Statistics Professor at your nearest University. I am > > sure they could give you some pointers. 'Give me a statistic and I > > can prove anything' is something that one of my Stats profs used to say. > > And I tend to believe him! > > I remember that somebody I worked with had discovered a positive > correlation between orange juice consumption and testicle size. > > Greg > Drinking Milk leads to drug use. At least that is what a stat prof. once said in a class, just to make a point. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net Abusenet: The Misinformation Superhighway From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 07:55:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03498 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:55:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (serial.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03493 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 07:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA08504 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:55:10 -0400 (EDT) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Atipa wrote: > (snip, snip, ...) > > > Because FreeBSD is easier than Linux to install on a non-Internet > > computer, > > (snip, snip, ...) > > Come on, guys. I hate seeing the "good guys" stoop to the level of the > competition. Tim's statement is very opinionated, with about as much > substantiation as Linux's 6 million users. > > We need to stay away from arbitrary, opinionated comments like the above. > I personally feel Linux's installation is easier than FreeBSD's, > especially Red Hat Linux. Slackware is not bad either. Guess it's all a matter of opinion. I found Slackware a total PITA to install. Mainly because it couldn't be installed over the net and that you couldn't just start it and walk away. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 09:14:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08119 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [204.188.121.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08112 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:14:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01226; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710161613.JAA01226@rah.star-gate.com> To: jack cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: install feature 8) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:55:10 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:13:55 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I think that it would be nice to have an install express button with two flavors : with X and no X. No sources just the binaries if it finds the disk on the system it just installs FreeBSD regardless of what was on the disk. Cheers, Amancio >From The Desk Of jack : > On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Atipa wrote: > > > (snip, snip, ...) > > > > > Because FreeBSD is easier than Linux to install on a non-Internet > > > computer, > > > > (snip, snip, ...) > > > > Come on, guys. I hate seeing the "good guys" stoop to the level of the > > competition. Tim's statement is very opinionated, with about as much > > substantiation as Linux's 6 million users. > > > > We need to stay away from arbitrary, opinionated comments like the above. > > I personally feel Linux's installation is easier than FreeBSD's, > > especially Red Hat Linux. Slackware is not bad either. > > Guess it's all a matter of opinion. I found Slackware a total PITA to > install. Mainly because it couldn't be installed over the net and that > you couldn't just start it and walk away. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or > jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html > #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 09:50:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09828 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:50:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09797 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:50:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.5/8.7.5) id KAA02845; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:49:54 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199710161649.KAA02845@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:49:52 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199710160718.QAA01812@word.smith.net.au> from "Mike Smith" at Oct 16, 97 04:48:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I recently (and publicly!) opined: % Jordan, Terry and I, for instance, could probably go on endlessly about % the various virtues of advanced aircraft vs. space-based energy weapons % vs. one *really good* missile. We agree on very little except that we % really ought to have the biggest guns. Might makes Right. Mike Smith cleverly replied: > Ie. not only are we comfortable and smug, but we're _right_ too. 8) Exactly! Now you're beginning to See The Light! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 12:08:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18558 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:08:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mobrien.ni.net (mobrien.ni.net [207.199.11.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18553 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:08:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obrien@leonardo.net) Received: from caern.leonardo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobrien.ni.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00261 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710161907.MAA00261@mobrien.ni.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hmmm...Netscape's expiring...what now? Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:07:00 -0700 From: "Mike O'Brien" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk It was very good of Netscape to gen up a FreeBSD netscape, if only a beta copy. However, that beta expires Nov. 1 and it doesn't look as if there's a FreeBSD copy of 4.03 final. What's the next best alternative, the Linux 1.2 version or the Linux 2.0 version? Or is there another FreeBSD version in the works, do you think? Mike O'Brien From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 12:35:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20425 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20417 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA17048; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:34:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: F1.17 (was Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD?) In-Reply-To: <23694.876986894@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I doubt that any country's military budget (or just the hardware part > > of it) is larger than that of the United States. > > Sorry, I should have clarified that I meant this as a percentage of > GNP. Do you happen to know who the highest military spenders by GNP > currently are? You appear to have good access to statistical > data. ;-) > > Jordan Here's a list (who's buying? ) as a percentage of GNP as of 1994 (world average 3.0 in 1994, down from 3.3 in 1993): KoreaN 26.3 Iraq 18.0 SaudiArabia 14.2 Russia 12.4 Coatia 9.0 Israel 8.6 Syria 8.3 Brunei 7.9 Jordan 7.5 Laos 7.4 UAE 5.7 Greece 5.6 Taiwan 4.8 US 4.3 Egypt 4.1 KoreaS 3.7 France 3.4 UK 3.3 Georgia 3.1 India 2.9 CzechRep 2.7 Australia 2.6 Iran 2.4 China 2.4 Denmark 1.9 Germany 1.8 Canada 1.8 Cuba 1.6 Indonesia 1.4 Japan 1.0 Austria 1.0 Uzbekistan 0.7 Kyrgyzstan 0.7 Ukraine 0.6 Mexico 0.6 Columbia n.a. These are from the 1997 Britannica book of the year. Russia used to be up there with North Korea, so they're on a downward skid. These numbers are mostly self-reported; they're based, I think, on a National Income and Products Accounts approach, which is somewhat different from the primarily cash basis that I was using for the U.S. budget numbers. Also any country that drafts and underpays its military personnel is really using more in resources than the numbers reflect. And I may have missed some countries spending a high percentage of GNP. What's perhaps more interesting (and the reason I looked this stuff up for the first time a few years ago) was that I was curious which "Western" country had the second-largest military....I suspected Japan, and this turned out to be the case. Anyway the Britannica 1997 book gives population and military expenditures translated (at some exchange rate--an official one no doubt) into U.S. dollars. That's really pretty crude (are there any significant digits?) but this is the result: Country U.S. $ (billions) (1994) US 293.3 Russia 95.8 China 53.6 Japan 45.9 France 44.8 Germany 36.7 UK 34.4 The big seven..... Annelise From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 13:16:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22614 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:16:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from terror.hungry.com (fn@terror.hungry.com [169.131.1.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22606 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@Hungry.COM) Received: (from fn@localhost) by terror.hungry.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26853; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:15:16 -0700 (PDT) To: obrien@leonardo.net (Mike O'Brien) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org reply-to: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Hmmm...Netscape's expiring...what now? References: <199710161907.MAA00261@mobrien.ni.net> From: Faried Nawaz Date: 16 Oct 1997 13:15:16 -0700 In-Reply-To: obrien@leonardo.net's message of 16 Oct 1997 12:47:02 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk obrien@leonardo.net (Mike O'Brien) writes: It was very good of Netscape to gen up a FreeBSD netscape, if only a beta copy. However, that beta expires Nov. 1 and it doesn't look as if there's a FreeBSD copy of 4.03 final. What's the next best alternative, the Linux 1.2 version or the Linux 2.0 version? Or is there another FreeBSD version in the works, do you think? Poke around ftp23.netscape.com:/pub/communicator/4.03/4.03b8/english/unix/freebsd/. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 14:19:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25380 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25371 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29254; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16636; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:20:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:20:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: Atipa cc: Tim Vanderhoek , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Atipa wrote: > (snip, snip, ...) > > Come on, guys. I hate seeing the "good guys" stoop to the level of the > competition. Tim's statement is very opinionated, with about as much > substantiation as Linux's 6 million users. Well, I wouldn't advise taking any of the statements from that particular email as being particularly meaningful... :-) I wasn't happy with what was barely >50 mil users and had to think of something... :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 14:24:18 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25617 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25605 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29799; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17227; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:25:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:25:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca To: Atipa cc: Tim Vanderhoek , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web page In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [As I read through the rest of your letter (yes, _after_ sending the previous one...shh...I'll never do it again! I swear! ;)] On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Atipa wrote: > We need to stay away from arbitrary, opinionated comments like the above. > I personally feel Linux's installation is easier than FreeBSD's, > especially Red Hat Linux. Slackware is not bad either. Really, what you "feel" about Linux's installation is little more valid than what I "feel", so what I said was certainly no worse than the above-quoted. Maybe better, since it was in an obviously non-serious context. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 16:51:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02462 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from majesticnet.com (host2.majestic.sysci.org [205.227.182.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02457 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ian@majesticnet.com) Received: (from ian@localhost) by majesticnet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15877; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23043.876978950@time.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:31:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Ian Struble To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Cc: Jonathan Lemon , jkb , Andreas Klemm , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 16-Oct-97 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Of course, I can't be sure about that, either. Let's split the >> difference (20,000,000 + 25,000)/2 = 10,000,000 within the limits of >> measurement error :-) > >Or, as I put it during my last BOF talk at USENIX when someone >asked me for an estimate, "plus or minus an order of magnitude" :-) "plus or minus an order of magnitude" was the first thing I said when I read that 3-10 million linux number(I would say estimate or even guesstimate but is it really anything more than a number?). I was really pleased to see how easy it is to register with the more recent releases. These numbers don't really mean all that much to the people who are already using FreeBSD and happy with it, but to people on the outside looking in these numbers give them a warm fuzzy feeling. Now just as long as our numbers are acurate to within an order of magnitude or two we will be doing just fine :^) Ian From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 18:45:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08981 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08969 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:45:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (max2-168.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.168]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA00558; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:45:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA21819; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:35:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710162335.SAA21819@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Ian Struble , dkelly@hiwaay.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:03:06 +0930." <19971016130306.15812@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:35:56 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey replies: [snip] > >> Write it up correctly and http://www.improb.com/ will publish it. > >> > >> I've heard of a book or booklette named, "How to Lie With Statistics". > >> Does this book really exist? If so, where could I find one? > > > > Go talk to a Statistics Professor at your nearest University. I am > > sure they could give you some pointers. 'Give me a statistic and I > > can prove anything' is something that one of my Stats profs used to say. > > And I tend to believe him! > > I remember that somebody I worked with had discovered a positive > correlation between orange juice consumption and testicle size. That's *exactly* the kind of material http://www.improb.com/ is looking for! A small dose of their free email journal: ----------------------------------------------------- 1997-09-21 How to Receive mini-AIR, etc. (*) What you are reading right now is mini-AIR. It is NOT a tiny version of AIR -- rather, it is overflow from the real magazine. To subscribe, send a brief E-mail message to: LISTPROC@AIR.HARVARD.EDU The body of your message should contain ONLY the words SUBSCRIBE MINI-AIR MARIE CURIE (You may substitute your own name for that of Madame Curie.) ---------------------------- To stop subscribing, send the following message: SIGNOFF MINI-AIR To obtain a list of back issues, send this message: INDEX MINI-AIR To retrieve a particular back issue, send a message specifying which issue you want. For example, to retrieve the issue dated 950706, send this message: GET MINI-AIR MINI-AIR.950706 ----------------------------------------------------- I wonder how many subscribe as Madame Curie? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 16 18:49:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09244 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:49:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (ken@mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09239 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@plutotech.com) Received: (from ken@localhost) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27570; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:48:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Kenneth Merry Message-Id: <199710170148.TAA27570@pluto.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: Hmmm...Netscape's expiring...what now? In-Reply-To: <199710161907.MAA00261@mobrien.ni.net> from Mike O'Brien at "Oct 16, 97 12:07:00 pm" To: obrien@leonardo.net (Mike O'Brien) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:48:35 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike O'Brien wrote... > It was very good of Netscape to gen up a FreeBSD netscape, if > only a beta copy. However, that beta expires Nov. 1 and it doesn't > look as if there's a FreeBSD copy of 4.03 final. What's the next best > alternative, the Linux 1.2 version or the Linux 2.0 version? Or is > there another FreeBSD version in the works, do you think? Actually, my copy of 4.03b8 expires November 30th, not November 1st. (clipped from 'about: license'): CLIENT SOFTWARE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT AND THIS BETA ADDENDUM, THE TERMS OF THIS BETA ADDENDUM SHALL GOVERN. TIMEOUT DATE: November 30, 1997 LICENSE GRANT. Netscape grants you a non-exclusive license to use the Software free of charge for evaluation and tria Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 00:21:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA26420 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA26409 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:21:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA20911 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:21:08 +0200 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA08113; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:07:35 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19971017090735.BI02497@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:07:35 +0200 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good compilers [Was: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course] References: <199710130146.TAA08173@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Graeme Cross on Oct 13, 1997 15:54:29 +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Graeme Cross wrote: > I am aware of high quality Fortran, Ada and Eiffel products that are > commercially available for Linux, as well as free implementations of all of > the above. Just curious: are there any commercial high-quality C++ compilers for free operating systems? A customer of us is doing C++ development, right now mostly on Sparcs, since g++ is just too far off from the standard. They would happily move out part of their development to freeware systems if a good compilere were available. (Please, don't start any flamewars about the quality of g++. I think its developers know well enough where they fall short.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 06:13:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA10603 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:13:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au [130.194.166.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA10596 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 06:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from graeme@babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au) Received: from localhost (graeme@localhost) by babylon.wsc.monash.edu.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA03424; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:11:36 +1000 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:11:36 +1000 (EST) From: Graeme Cross Reply-To: Graeme.Cross@sci.monash.edu.au To: Joerg Wunsch cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good compilers [Was: FreeBSD for Operating Systems Course] In-Reply-To: <19971017090735.BI02497@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: X-Attribution: gjc X-No-Archive: yes X-No-Junk-Mail: Do not send me junk mail under any circumstances X-PGP-Key-ID: 702DB549 X-URI: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > As Graeme Cross wrote: > > > I am aware of high quality Fortran, Ada and Eiffel products that are > > commercially available for Linux, as well as free implementations of all of > > the above. > > Just curious: are there any commercial high-quality C++ compilers for > free operating systems? A customer of us is doing C++ development, > right now mostly on Sparcs, since g++ is just too far off from the > standard. They would happily move out part of their development to > freeware systems if a good compilere were available. > There is Comeau C++ (http://www.comeaucomputing.com/) I haven't used it, but have heard good reports of it. Not sure if there is a FreeBSD version, but there is a Linux version. Cheers Graeme - -- Graeme Cross Water Studies Centre, Monash University http://www.wsc.monash.edu.au/~graeme/ Random thought #103 My mail reader can beat up your mail reader. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Auto-signed by PPG (v1.01) (the PGP/PINE gateway) iQB1AwUBNEdkA2AiycRwLbVJAQFuxQMAkwT6YFnmMIXnJTPdgwAtl5JcSF8zVTZb S8Z9Tlf+dgL1pff0EDGBQFLnTOZNUN8de7Fp19m9T2YZhhUC3eTV/xbzNZLZhQLW TriFeUzqwufNjsIL/DYNo2BLegXUhz4C =srAq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 12:25:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02490 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gemini.cia.com (root@gemini.cybersurf.net [206.186.110.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02485 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:25:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stephane@cybersurf.net) Received: from stephane.cybersurf.net (geminippp170.cybersurf.net [206.186.110.170]) by gemini.cia.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03542 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:25:35 -0600 From: "Stephane Raimbault" To: Subject: daily, weekly, monthly Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:25:31 -0600 Message-ID: <01bcdb32$6f34a4a0$aa6ebace@stephane.cybersurf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BCDB00.249A34A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BCDB00.249A34A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I have been tinkering with FreeBSD for a while now and was = wondering how important is it to run daily, weekly, monthly. And also = how would I go about setting up my system so that it does it = automatically. Thank you for your time, Stephane Raimbault ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BCDB00.249A34A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello, I have been tinkering with = FreeBSD for a=20 while now and was wondering how important is it to run daily, weekly,=20 monthly.  And also how would I go about setting up my system so = that it=20 does it automatically.
 
Thank you for your = time,
Stephane = Raimbault
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BCDB00.249A34A0-- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 12:45:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03893 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:45:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from onlink4.onlink.net (onlink4.onlink.net [206.108.253.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03887 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gandersn@puc.net) Received: from default (pucc1-onlink16.puc.net [206.130.219.25]) by onlink4.onlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19852 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:36:19 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971017194008.006bd298@mail.onlink.net> X-Sender: gandersn@mail.onlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:40:08 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "`~-_-~'" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >I don't think you can be that sure about the upper and lower limits. >I'd say there must be at least 25,000, because we've counted them. >But are you sure that there are no more than 10,000,000? How can you >be sure? I'd say it's possible that there are 20,000,000. > >Of course, I can't be sure about that, either. Let's split the >difference (20,000,000 + 25,000)/2 = 10,000,000 within the limits of >measurement error :-) > >Greg Would you guys give up on the numbers, even if you were right numbers of users is just useless, or we would only run win95 and when you spend anytime with yahoo, and see the number of linux related sites compared with FreeBSD sites you must expect a greater user base for linux. but why do people argue about one or the other? there not that different! _ _ ___ _ _ _ ___ _ _ | |/ || -_|\`\/\/'/| |_ |_- || | _| | ___________________________________ | < |___| `\/\/' |___||_,_||_|| _ || | |_|\_| gandersn@puc.net |___|| The opinions expressed (Which may | ~~~~ ~~~~ | contain ideas that will kill your | Copywrite (C) 1997, Dennis Anderson | faith in god) are those of the | All rights reserved | participant and don'tnecessarily | | reflectthose of the accountholder.| any reproduction what so ever is a | If you want your own opinion ask | violation of said copyright and may | me for one | be punishable by DEATH from |___________________________________| **************** Please destroy this sig when replying ******************* From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 14:12:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08287 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:12:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08277 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:12:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id WAA00601; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:00:38 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01272; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:45:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19971017224513.11883@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:45:13 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Stephane Raimbault Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: daily, weekly, monthly References: <01bcdb32$6f34a4a0$aa6ebace@stephane.cybersurf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <01bcdb32$6f34a4a0$aa6ebace@stephane.cybersurf.net>; from Stephane Raimbault on Fri, Oct 17, 1997 at 01:25:31PM -0600 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Oct 17, 1997 at 01:25:31PM -0600, Stephane Raimbault wrote: > Hello, I have been tinkering with FreeBSD for a while now and was wondering how important is it to run daily, weekly, monthly. And also how would I go about setting up my system so that it does it automatically. Could you please use some CR's to format your text so it fits 80 column displays ? Thanks ;-) See /etc/crontab ... this is the main crontab file ... -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' andreas@klemm.gtn.com - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html andreas@FreeBSD.ORG - http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 14:40:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10285 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:40:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10148 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id QAA14443; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:39:07 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199710172139.QAA14443@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971017194008.006bd298@mail.onlink.net> from `~-_-~' at "Oct 17, 97 03:40:08 pm" To: gandersn@puc.net (`~-_-~') Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:39:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk `~-_-~' said: > >I don't think you can be that sure about the upper and lower limits. > >I'd say there must be at least 25,000, because we've counted them. > >But are you sure that there are no more than 10,000,000? How can you > >be sure? I'd say it's possible that there are 20,000,000. > > > >Of course, I can't be sure about that, either. Let's split the > >difference (20,000,000 + 25,000)/2 = 10,000,000 within the limits of > >measurement error :-) > > > >Greg > > Would you guys give up on the numbers, even if you were right > numbers of users is just useless, or we would only run win95 > > and when you spend anytime with yahoo, and see the number of > linux related sites compared with FreeBSD sites you must > expect a greater user base for linux. > Except, many of the users who search with YAHOO are using FreeBSD as users... That makes a h*ll alot of FreeBSD users :-). > > but why do people argue about one or the other? > there not that different! > For the fun of it... I don't see any flaming here :-). -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 15:34:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12875 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:34:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from blue.bad.bris.ac.uk (blue.bad.bris.ac.uk [137.222.132.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12849 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taff@blue.bad.bris.ac.uk) Received: (qmail 1120 invoked by uid 57242); 17 Oct 1997 22:38:27 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 23:38:21 +0100 (BST) From: Aled Treharne Reply-To: felix@royal.net To: "`~-_-~'" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19971017194008.006bd298@mail.onlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, `~-_-~' wrote: > > but why do people argue about one or the other? > there not that different! > Why are we arguing amongst ourselves when we could be doing so much damage to Microsoft instead?! Pissing contests between two different flavours of Unix push people away from Unix - not towards it. I f we could concentrate our efforts on destroying Microsoft's user base... :) I dream of a world where people say "Micro-what? who?" Aled Treharne felix@royal.net "Big Bird meets Salvador Dali has been brought to you by the numbers L and ), and by the letter 3." For PGP Public key finger taff@blue.bad.bris.ac.uk #include(std.disclaim) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNEfo48aJukNO1flNAQHfTgP+OynpVNdEIF+29pIXGQgJEKE9ASGuwBcp KBbVbQW8haljy28fLcri5/l1BEzpX2EZsoPlIpWEFhmT07zXGA+2mK9rbkZKT/Di ieNOHIfYD6Nl6zvKJWwdTe4l6fHD4UMyUf50XtQ8gMCUcrUC4xAUKB7Sx87uEQUw 4xlpl+vjsJc= =3MCK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 17 21:32:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26730 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:32:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26724 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 21:32:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA14607; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:39:16 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 22:39:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710180439.WAA14607@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Terry Lambert CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: C2 Trusted FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199710171817.LAA16458@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199710171817.LAA16458@usr06.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Terry Lambert writes: > > >Or in other words - C2 or not, we are going to need a modified ffs that > > >properly overwrites the freed (via unlink, truncate or other means) > > >storage on disk anyways? > > > > Not my area of expertise exactly, but from what I gather, yes. This would > > eat tremendous amounts of precious I/O, unless I suppose it was done at > > idle times, but that might defeat the purpose of it. > > This should be done on a block by block basis, and could be done > in a stacking layer on top of a variable granularity block store. Yes, and there are some strategies that could be adopted to minimize the impact of this. Disk blocks are not immediately freed, but rather returned to a queue of blocks to be overwritten; once overwritten they are marked as freed. The overwrites could be interleaved with normal disk I/O head stepping algorithms, and/or performed during idle I/O times unless needed in the free store. It would be advantageous to allow multiple overwrite strategies as well, specifying no overwrite for low-security situations like my workstation at home, behind an infrequently connected firewall; single overwrite for situations where you're not completely paranoid about your user base, and multiple-overwrite with varying patterns for FreeBSD systems installed in ballistic missile submarines. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 18 09:45:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25307 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25301 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-213.konnections.com (ip185-213.konnections.com [207.173.185.213]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA00923; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:41:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-213.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDBB2.D3FCC130@ip185-213.konnections.com>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:44:36 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCDBB2.D3FCC130@ip185-213.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: "`~-_-~'" , "'felix@royal.net'" Cc: "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:44:35 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA25302 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Aled is right. Many of us have said from the beginning that most Free Unix are moving toward some natural integration anyway. Each day we become more similar. Partly because as the problems and issues become more detailed and complex, the solution set becomes smaller. Does anyone use NT besides me? I see it everyday as a personal WS/network OS and I tell you, it's chock full of holes. MS creates a product, runs it through 2 or 3 iterations and then moves on. Look at Win95. It will probably never get any better. It certainly doesn't get the attention that you folks put into BSD or the Linux folks put in. Every inroad on Linux or *BSD brings us one step closer to fusion. What we need to worry about right now is why ApplixWare isn't as good as Office, or if COREL would do WP Office on Linux/*BSD. The apps are holding us back now and if this much similar effort was put towards apps there would be no stopping Free Unix. Although it is recognized as the better OS, it just doesn't have the apps organized in a semi shrink wrapped fashion to push it over the edge. I challenge those quibbling over which free unix is the best to build some apps to bury MS, and I don't mean by building a better MS Windows than MS, but by building better UNIX apps than MS. -Mike Allison ---------- From: Aled Treharne Sent: Friday, October 17, 1997 4:38 PM To: `~-_-~' Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, `~-_-~' wrote: > > but why do people argue about one or the other? > there not that different! > Why are we arguing amongst ourselves when we could be doing so much damage to Microsoft instead?! Pissing contests between two different flavours of Unix push people away from Unix - not towards it. I f we could concentrate our efforts on destroying Microsoft's user base... :) I dream of a world where people say "Micro-what? who?" Aled Treharne felix@royal.net "Big Bird meets Salvador Dali has been brought to you by the numbers L and ), and by the letter 3." For PGP Public key finger taff@blue.bad.bris.ac.uk #include(std.disclaim) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBNEfo48aJukNO1flNAQHfTgP+OynpVNdEIF+29pIXGQgJEKE9ASGuwBcp KBbVbQW8haljy28fLcri5/l1BEzpX2EZsoPlIpWEFhmT07zXGA+2mK9rbkZKT/Di ieNOHIfYD6Nl6zvKJWwdTe4l6fHD4UMyUf50XtQ8gMCUcrUC4xAUKB7Sx87uEQUw 4xlpl+vjsJc= =3MCK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 18 11:33:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28598 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from elmira.functional.com (elmira.functional.com [198.82.216.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28593 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:33:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grail@elmira.functional.com) Received: (from grail@localhost) by elmira.functional.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16066; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:33:11 GMT Message-ID: <19971018183311.08686@functional.com> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:33:11 +0000 From: Giao Nguyen To: Mike Allison Cc: "`~-_-~'" , "'felix@royal.net'" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <01BCDBB2.D3FCC130@ip185-213.konnections.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <01BCDBB2.D3FCC130@ip185-213.konnections.com>; from Mike Allison on Sat, Oct 18, 1997 at 10:44:35AM -0600 X-Saying: Maniacal laughter is the best medicine. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Allison said: > Every inroad on Linux or *BSD brings us one step closer to fusion. > What we need to worry about right now is why ApplixWare isn't as > good as Office, or if COREL would do WP Office on Linux/*BSD. What do you mean? I think Applixware is a great piece of software. Perhaps the Linux version is as good as the others, but this is experience from using Applixware 4 years ago on a Sun box. Did they go downhill? -- Giao Nguyen From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 18 11:50:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29231 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:50:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29222 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-205.konnections.com (ip185-205.konnections.com [207.173.185.205]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA02788; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:46:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: by ip185-205.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDBC4.61A138C0@ip185-205.konnections.com>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:50:15 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCDBC4.61A138C0@ip185-205.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Mike Allison , "'Giao Nguyen'" Cc: "`~-_-~'" , "'felix@royal.net'" , "chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:50:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA29227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Applix is a good product, don't get me wrong. I have the Linux version. There are improvements to be made and it needs a RDBM. It's not quite there yet. Yes, I use it on the SUN as well, that's why i like it. That's why it's a good example. -Mike ---------- From: Giao Nguyen Sent: Saturday, October 18, 1997 12:33 PM To: Mike Allison Cc: `~-_-~'; 'felix@royal.net'; chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p Mike Allison said: > Every inroad on Linux or *BSD brings us one step closer to fusion. > What we need to worry about right now is why ApplixWare isn't as > good as Office, or if COREL would do WP Office on Linux/*BSD. What do you mean? I think Applixware is a great piece of software. Perhaps the Linux version is as good as the others, but this is experience from using Applixware 4 years ago on a Sun box. Did they go downhill? -- Giao Nguyen From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 18 14:19:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04887 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04882 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1006071; 18 Oct 97 22:04 BST Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05315; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:04:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971018130440.27183@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:04:40 +0100 From: James Raynard To: Aled Treharne Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. the rest of the world, poor OS comparison on web p References: <2.2.32.19971017194008.006bd298@mail.onlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: ; from Aled Treharne on Fri, Oct 17, 1997 at 11:38:21PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Oct 17, 1997 at 11:38:21PM +0100, Aled Treharne wrote: > > I dream of a world where people say "Micro-what? who?" Sadly it seems to be going the other way. One of the leading clothing chains here (M&S?) got into a lot of trouble for a producing a "microsoft" grade of women's tights, even though the offending word was on a small label that could only be seen by closely inspecting the item in question. Eventually they were allowed to continue using the word providing (1) the label was on the inside only and (2) the word was not used on men's underwear. (UK -> US translation: tights -> pantyhose) -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/