From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 00:55:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA10193 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10188 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:55:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA28706; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:54:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:54:21 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: <19971101110728.09058@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>> FreeBSD - the operating system of the Internet > >>> > >>> I'm sure somebody can improve on this. > >> FreeBSD The Operating System for the Internet From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 01:11:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA10944 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:11:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA10939 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:11:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA12200; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 01:12:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711020912.BAA12200@implode.root.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/11/02 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 00:29:22 PST." <199711020829.AAA23887@wcarchive.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 01:12:32 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk >Dual Log Stats : Nov 02 1997 -------------------------------------------------- > > Bytes : 231,879,944,507 > Files : 773,127 ... > Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total > Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files >-------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ >/games 50,013M 46,801M 3,212M 23,104 18,730 4,374 21.57 2.99 >/idgames2 24,240M 19,254M 4,986M 42,744 27,592 15,152 10.45 5.53 >/simtelnet 23,492M 16,062M 7,430M 42,463 21,281 21,182 10.13 5.49 >/gamesdomain 22,307M 22,231M 76M 3,528 2,787 741 9.62 0.46 >/FreeBSD 22,065M 22,035M 29M 242,804 239,798 3,006 9.52 31.41 >/idgames 21,976M 21,541M 434M 16,078 11,805 4,273 9.48 2.08 >/linux 20,325M 19,847M 477M 92,177 84,133 8,044 8.77 11.92 >/3dfxmania 9,749M 9,676M 73M 4,361 4,241 120 4.20 0.56 >/demos 7,823M 4,776M 3,047M 72,594 18,124 54,470 3.37 9.39 This is a new one-day record. The old record was 228.7GB, set on Aug 29th. It looks like MCI has added additional bandwidth at the PB-NAP and I think that is what allowed the new record to be set. There must have been something new in /games as well. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 05:32:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA19742 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:32:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su (skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.5.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA19736 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 05:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mishania@skraldespand.demos.su) Received: (from mishania@localhost) by skraldespand.demos.su (8.8.8/D) id QAA23465; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:31:41 +0300 (MSK) Posted-Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:31:41 +0300 (MSK) Message-ID: <19971102163140.38918@demos.su> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:31:40 +0300 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: Dev Chanchani Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.75 In-Reply-To: ; from Dev Chanchani on Fri, Oct 31, 1997 at 09:46:05AM -0500 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Moved to chat@ On Fri, Oct 31, 1997 at 09:46:05AM -0500, Dev Chanchani wrote: # root@serv1:/usr/www>w # 10:34AM up 6 days, 1:56, 2 users, load averages: 198.50, 120.96, 57.50 # USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE WHAT # galaxy v0 - Wed09PM 2 -bash (bash) # root p0 wopr 10:00AM - w # root@serv1:/usr/www> # It came back to fine working order without a reboot ;-) # # Took like 60 seconds for a newline when you hit enter on a shell, but heh, # the machine was busy :) # The machine was a P150 with 3 GB of IDE hd .. heh. Well, 2xppro/256ram can stand load averages 500 (caused by tcpd/smurf attacks), but then you can go pour coffee, take a smoke or something. Still, something tell's me it lies, - when such machine is an nfs client (runs httpd's) and it's server is gone, it'd hang (you still can type, but before you see an echo you can freely get one or another cup of coffee) and state it's load average is something like 120. Maximum I saw when perfoming sadistic actions on such boxes is 900 - while (); fork fork and fork find / -print |xargs ls -alRt |awk etc etc ..., then it will die 'cause out of swap ~650Mb, memomory (and a wish to live such a life ;)) # # Go FreeBSD!! Was there any doubt if to or not? -- -mishania From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 07:06:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA26074 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:06:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26068 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07454; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:05:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:05:35 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Greg Lehey cc: Amancio Hasty , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window manager vote (was: http://www.plig.org/xwinman/vote.html) In-Reply-To: <19971102120337.06871@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, Nov 01, 1997 at 11:39:23AM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > Care to vote for your favorited window manager ? > > > > I of course voted for enlightenment 8) > > Hmm. I don't know enlightenment, except what people have said about > it over the last few days, but exactly that makes me suspicious about > a poll which gives it over 40% of all votes. I'd guess that this is > not a typical cross-section of the X public. Any comments? Web opinion polls like this are completely bogous. The only thing they measure is how evangelical people are about the software they use. For example, a BYTE web poll showed that about 45% of "computer users" use OS/2 exclusively. Sure. -john From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 08:11:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28347 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:11:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28335; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:11:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16563; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:11:33 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id RAA19342; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:11:32 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971102171132.44270@bitbox.follo.net> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:11:32 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: jkh@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [tore@yes.no: FreeBSD - Slogan!] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Below are what our sales/advertising exec came up with after running a brainstorming and weeding session with me. -----Forwarded message from Tore Dahl ----- Received: from ns1.yes.no (nic.follonett.no [194.198.43.10]) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA17038 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 17:53:13 +0100 (MET) Received: from monster (monster.follonett.no [194.198.43.33]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08400 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:53:12 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971101175025.04561910@follonett.no> X-Sender: tore@follonett.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 17:50:25 +0100 To: eivind@yes.no From: Tore Dahl Subject: FreeBSD - Slogan! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FreeBSD: Power, when price doesn't matter! FreeBSD: Download your future today! FreeBSD: A tradition for creating the future! FreeBSD: The source of solutions! FreeBSD: Pure source create pure solutions! FreeBSD: Distilled experience. FreeBSD: Experience distilled experience. FreeBSD: Pure power for pure people! FreeBSD: Use the source Luke, use the source FreeBSD: The future's source created by man Some contributions... ;) -- Tore Dahl | Yes Interactive AS | voice: +47 64 855200 email: tore@yes.no | http://www.yes.no/ | fax: +47 64 855201 -----End of forwarded message----- Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 10:22:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04467 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:22:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from netsite.netsitesys.com (netsite.netsitesys.com [206.113.206.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04452 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@netsitesys.com) Received: from tasm (sA1-b15.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.176]) by netsite.netsitesys.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-35153U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA285; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:22:44 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971102131848.006a5ee4@netsitesys.com> X-Sender: ben@netsitesys.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:19:32 -0500 To: dg@root.com, ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com From: ben@netsitesys.com (Ben Evans) Subject: Re: Dual Log Stats - 1997/11/02 Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk *nod* Tomb Raider 2 Demo came out. At 01:12 AM 11/2/97 -0800, David Greenman wrote: >>Dual Log Stats : Nov 02 1997 -------------------------------------------------- >> >> Bytes : 231,879,944,507 >> Files : 773,127 >... >> Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total >> Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files >>-------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ >>/games 50,013M 46,801M 3,212M 23,104 18,730 4,374 21.57 2.99 >>/idgames2 24,240M 19,254M 4,986M 42,744 27,592 15,152 10.45 5.53 >>/simtelnet 23,492M 16,062M 7,430M 42,463 21,281 21,182 10.13 5.49 >>/gamesdomain 22,307M 22,231M 76M 3,528 2,787 741 9.62 0.46 >>/FreeBSD 22,065M 22,035M 29M 242,804 239,798 3,006 9.52 31.41 >>/idgames 21,976M 21,541M 434M 16,078 11,805 4,273 9.48 2.08 >>/linux 20,325M 19,847M 477M 92,177 84,133 8,044 8.77 11.92 >>/3dfxmania 9,749M 9,676M 73M 4,361 4,241 120 4.20 0.56 >>/demos 7,823M 4,776M 3,047M 72,594 18,124 54,470 3.37 9.39 > > This is a new one-day record. The old record was 228.7GB, set on Aug 29th. >It looks like MCI has added additional bandwidth at the PB-NAP and I think >that is what allowed the new record to be set. There must have been something >new in /games as well. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > -Ben Evans Software Engineer ,---------------------------- ----. | SCS/NetSite Systems, Inc | | (315) 446-5555 - Offices (x162) | | (315) 446-3039 - Fax | | http://www.netsitesys.com/ | `---------------------------------' From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 10:57:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06376 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06364 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:57:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17526; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:57:18 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id TAA19617; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:57:16 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:57:16 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711021857.TAA19617@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Terry Lambert CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Terry Lambert's message of Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:49:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas References: <19971030200614.39160@micron.mini.net> <199710312249.PAA20311@usr01.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > "All the power, none of the price. Do what you want. Today." > > > > Periods are our friends. > > Microsoft asks "where do you want to go today?". > > Finally, this burning question can be answered. > > FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. Too much Microsoft-related. We shouldn't give them the respect of paying any attention to their slogan - they don't deserve it. IMHO, of course. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 13:37:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13370 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:37:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from hwcn.org (main.hwcn.org [199.212.94.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13363 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:37:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hwcn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12601; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18166; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:38:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca: ac199 owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:38:34 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: ac199@james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca Reply-To: Tim Vanderhoek To: John Fieber cc: Greg Lehey , Amancio Hasty , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window manager vote (was: http://www.plig.org/xwinman/vote.html) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, John Fieber wrote: > Web opinion polls like this are completely bogous. The only > thing they measure is how evangelical people are about the > software they use. For example, a BYTE web poll showed that > about 45% of "computer users" use OS/2 exclusively. Sure. Of course, how evangelical users are about their software may be worth something, too... In this case, I suspect Satoshi has almost single-handedly stuffed the ballot (looking over commits to ports/INDEX :). -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 19:15:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00621 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:15:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br ([146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00603 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:15:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04364; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:15:15 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199711030315.BAA04364@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas In-Reply-To: <199711021857.TAA19617@bitbox.follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Nov 2, 97 07:57:16 pm" To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:15:14 -0200 (EDT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Eivind Eklund) // > // > > "All the power, none of the price. Do what you want. Today." // > > // > > Periods are our friends. // > // > Microsoft asks "where do you want to go today?". // > // > Finally, this burning question can be answered. Paraphrasing other slogans is good to make fun and laugth a little, but not to be used on a "direct marketing" basis. // > // > FreeBSD: Where you want to go. Today. // // Too much Microsoft-related. We shouldn't give them the respect of // paying any attention to their slogan - they don't deserve it. // // IMHO, of course. Me too. :) It's a good slogan, but not good to be "official". Even if it's legal. Paraphrasing other slogans is good to make fun and laugh a little, but not to be used on a "direct marketing" basis. // // Eivind. // Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 19:23:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00994 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:23:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br ([146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00985 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04481; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:23:22 -0200 (EDT) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199711030323.BAA04481@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: <19971031160141.17324@homer.supersex.com> from Leo Papandreou at "Oct 31, 97 04:01:41 pm" To: leo@talcom.net (Leo Papandreou) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:23:22 -0200 (EDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk #define quoting(Leo Papandreou) // From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 31 19:22:55 1997 // Message-ID: <19971031160141.17324@homer.supersex.com> // Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:01:41 -0500 // From: Leo Papandreou // To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG // Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations // References: <19971031162340.39717@lemis.com> <3459844B.61203582@idt.net> // X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e // In-Reply-To: <3459844B.61203582@idt.net>; from Gary T. Corcoran on Fri, Oct 31, 1997 at 02:10:03AM -0500 // Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG // X-Loop: FreeBSD.org // Precedence: bulk // On Fri, Oct 31, 1997 at 02:10:03AM -0500, Gary T. Corcoran wrote: // > Greg Lehey wrote: // > > // > > This reminds me of something. FreeBSD is the grandson of 4.2BSD, // > > right, the operating system which paved the way for the Internet. // > > There should be some catchy phrase with that, but so far it's eluded // > > me. Something like // > > // > > FreeBSD - the operating system of the Internet // > > // > > I'm sure somebody can improve on this. // > > // > // > How about: // > // > FreeBSD - Powering the Internet // > // > This targets the use of FreeBSD for network servers too, no? // // Making networks work. // Making networks serve. // Serving networks everywhere. // Network, net gain. Just thinking: I know FreeBSD is best for network servers, and that's why I like it so much, but a network oriented slogan could keep non- networked (home) users away. I'd rather not see a slogan with networking as the *only* hype. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 22:46:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11239 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:46:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11229 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:46:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id XAA20051; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:56:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:56:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030656.XAA20051@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas In-Reply-To: <01bce5bc$b924a490$039a67cb@tech3.mel.cybec.com.au> References: <01bce5bc$b924a490$039a67cb@tech3.mel.cybec.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk BSD, the operating system of the future. Always has been, always will be. http://freebsd.org/ -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 22:50:21 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11583 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:50:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11574 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 22:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA20057; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:00:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:00:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030700.AAA20057@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: References: <19971031162340.39717@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Kevin Eliuk reminisced: > If I remember correctly the old homepage had something like: > > FreeBSD: The internet starts here. Jordan, I have already trademarked a phrase for my company. I am willing to release it to the FreeBSD project if you have any interest. I came to me one day while slaving away in my yard. ;^) The trademark phrase, tying in with the "Internet starts here" idea, is "the Information Driveway." If you think it's lame, please feel free to withold your comments. I don't need the rest of the world telling me how bad my marketing skills are. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 23:00:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12099 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:00:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12091 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:00:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA20072; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:10:46 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:10:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030710.AAA20072@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: <199710310856.JAA09939@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199710310226.DAA08937@bitbox.follo.net> <8535.878284917@time.cdrom.com> <199710310856.JAA09939@bitbox.follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund writes: > > > (3) FreeBSD: Power, not price. > > I ran this by our marketing exec - he thinks it give associations to > "boy's rooms OS". I tend to agree with him. > > He is usually quite good at this kind of stuff, but said he needed a > mission statement to be able to give it a go. > > So - what image do we want FreeBSD to project? > > My priorities are > * Professional > * Fast > * Powerful > > in that order. > > Can somebody else come up with a better definition of what we want to > communicate? You forgot the "freedom" bit in there. It's my number one reason for using FreeBSD on a daily basis: you can do with it as you wish. Nobody makes you sign, tear, click, or in any other way agree to a long list of unenforceable clauses to use, misuse, or abuse it. You just have to agree to give credit where credit is due. Personally, I liked "FreeBSD: the Power to Serve" the best of the one- liners; it has punch and puts forth both the powerful and server notions. Professional goes along with the quality of the artwork and/or webwork used; if your ads look professional, everyone assumes your product is also. Without this tenet, large hordes of software companies would have never gotten out of the gate. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 23:08:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12451 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:08:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12444 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:08:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA20078; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:18:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:18:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030718.AAA20078@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas In-Reply-To: <3459DEEB.DBA0B1FE@ix.netcom.com> References: <199710302257.QAA15890@Mercury.mcs.net> <199710310108.LAA00321@word.smith.net.au> <19971031122915.60452@lemis.com> <3459ED5A.9FF16E75@cam.grad.ipri.kiev.ua> <3459DEEB.DBA0B1FE@ix.netcom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Ruslan Shevchenko wrote: % 4. We have not good c++ compiler. % gcc is great, but exceptions and namespaces are % very important stuff for c++ programmers. % And standart string class yet not well in 2.2-stable. Jerry Hicks writes: > Even so, we really do get more *done* on FreeBSD than our other > systems. There are enough people using and developing for gcc that some > critical mass has been reached. It'll happen. Probably way before Java > is complete. Exceptions and namespaces, and many other features of C++, are important for language lawyers interested in excercising every feature of a language. While useful features, their absence certainly does not preclude you from developing high-quality working applications. GCC represents a fine working subset of C++ useful for a great number of commercial applications, including every one I have written in the last 6 years of my career. This includes large scale applications (as large as 600,000 lines of code) on both UNIX and embedded systems. > We use RogueWave tools.h++ for commercial C++ apps. Works nicely. Yuh. Probably works nicely even on FreeBSD, huh? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 23:12:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12579 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:12:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12574 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA20084; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:22:59 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:22:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030722.AAA20084@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Greg Lehey wrote: % FreeBSD - the operating system of the Internet % % I'm sure somebody can improve on this. On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Jan Koum wrote: > FreeBSD: from the makers of Internet The "American" version: ;^) FreeBSD: Of the Net, For the Net, By the Net. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Nov 2 23:31:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13366 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:31:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13359 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 23:31:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id AAA20103; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:41:13 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:41:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030741.AAA20103@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Jan Koum CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD GUI, revisited (was Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas) In-Reply-To: References: <199710312325.QAA23834@usr01.primenet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jan Koum writes: > I guess you are right. I did went a bit over the line. But I still > think that one should know basics of how computers work in order to use > them. Maybe kernel, file system and etc. are not in the basic group. True. > But then again the more you know, the more likely you are to take a full > advantage of the OS and it's features. No, you're exactly wrong here. How many people know the basics of how a car works in order to drive one? My wife, for instance, couldn't explain the theory of an internal combustion engine, let alone time a camshaft, and yet still manages to drive quite well. (I was with her the first time she drove with chains on the car, climbing the frozen mountains outside Pendleton Oregon. She is a *very good* driver. ;^) Do you think knowing more about the theory of operation of her 1600cc Corolla, with automagic transmission, would enable her to get more out of it? Not much - because Toyota has done a good job of making the operational requirements of the car invisible to the user, outside the obvious tasks of putting gas into it, and taking it to a qualified mechanic every 30,000 miles. > Take our sysinstall for example. It requires that you know basics > before you use it. Yet, it has options for beginner, medium and advanced > installation. Yes, and this is its biggest downfall. The first part of sysinstall should say: "You have two fixed disk drives in your system. Check the drive(s) you would like FreeBSD installed on." For each drive checked, "How much of this disk would you like dedicated to FreeBSD: ___%" This should comprise the *entire* disk menu. I know developing software to do this is difficult, if you plan to support more than one piece of hardware. This doesn't mean it is impossible, and doesn't mean the FreeBSD group won't have it. As a matter of fact, many talented people are working on improving the installation system already. Let's never forget that making something easy to install means more people have a chance to understand how good it is. If they can't install it, THEY WON'T COME! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:01:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15676 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:01:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15662 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:01:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA07951; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:01:12 -0800 (PST) To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 02 Nov 1997 23:56:15 MST." <199711030656.XAA20051@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 00:01:12 -0800 Message-ID: <7948.878544072@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > BSD, the operating system of the future. > Always has been, always will be. That is to say it's always late? I think you could read that several ways, not all of them good. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:02:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15757 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:02:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15747 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:02:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA07580; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:32:00 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971103183200.43578@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:32:00 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations References: <199710310226.DAA08937@bitbox.follo.net> <8535.878284917@time.cdrom.com> <199710310856.JAA09939@bitbox.follo.net> <199711030710.AAA20072@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199711030710.AAA20072@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 12:10:46AM -0700 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 12:10:46AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > Eivind Eklund writes: >>>> (3) FreeBSD: Power, not price. >> >> I ran this by our marketing exec - he thinks it give associations to >> "boy's rooms OS". I tend to agree with him. >> >> He is usually quite good at this kind of stuff, but said he needed a >> mission statement to be able to give it a go. >> >> So - what image do we want FreeBSD to project? >> >> My priorities are >> * Professional >> * Fast >> * Powerful >> >> in that order. >> >> Can somebody else come up with a better definition of what we want to >> communicate? > > You forgot the "freedom" bit in there. It's my number one reason for > using FreeBSD on a daily basis: you can do with it as you wish. Nobody > makes you sign, tear, click, or in any other way agree to a long list of > unenforceable clauses to use, misuse, or abuse it. You just have to > agree to give credit where credit is due. > > Personally, I liked "FreeBSD: the Power to Serve" the best of the one- > liners; The more I think about this one, the more I like it. Of course, it has nothing to do with the preceding paragraph :-) Do we have to limit ourselves to one slogan? I agree it (they) should be short, but there's no reason always to use the same one. For example, "the power to serve" in one context, "the original Internet OS" (or whatever) in another, and maybe others in further contexts. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:17:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16492 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:17:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16487 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:17:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA03093; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:17:03 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:17:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jan Koum X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Wes Peters cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD GUI, revisited (was Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas) In-Reply-To: <199711030741.AAA20103@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello all.. Well lets see here. We are comparing cars to operating systems. Ok, then lets say if I know theory of internal combustion engine I can build my own engine. Put it in my own custom car and make it go very very fast. Ohh wait, that is what they do at car races. I guess knowing how your car/engine/etc works does help you to make your car go faster. Because if you didn't, you wouldn't know where to begin to modify it. I guess that 1600cc Toyota is like Win95, while I would compare FreeBSD to a 911 twin turbo Porsche which is ready for the track race the day you drive it off the show room floor. I have never said you should not drive a car if you don't know how car works. What I said (following your analogy) is that you should know rules of the road in order to have a good driving experience. Why do you think there are driving tests? Do you think you can pass one if you don't know how to shift gears or how to parallel park? No. And same with OSes. If you don't know how to turn on and use a computer -- you should not. -- Yan On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Wes Peters wrote: >Jan Koum writes: > > I guess you are right. I did went a bit over the line. But I still > > think that one should know basics of how computers work in order to use > > them. Maybe kernel, file system and etc. are not in the basic group. True. > > But then again the more you know, the more likely you are to take a full > > advantage of the OS and it's features. > >No, you're exactly wrong here. How many people know the basics of how a >car works in order to drive one? My wife, for instance, couldn't >explain the theory of an internal combustion engine, let alone time a >camshaft, and yet still manages to drive quite well. (I was with her >the first time she drove with chains on the car, climbing the frozen >mountains outside Pendleton Oregon. She is a *very good* driver. ;^) > >Do you think knowing more about the theory of operation of her 1600cc >Corolla, with automagic transmission, would enable her to get more out >of it? Not much - because Toyota has done a good job of making the >operational requirements of the car invisible to the user, outside the >obvious tasks of putting gas into it, and taking it to a qualified >mechanic every 30,000 miles. > > > Take our sysinstall for example. It requires that you know basics > > before you use it. Yet, it has options for beginner, medium and advanced > > installation. > >Yes, and this is its biggest downfall. The first part of sysinstall >should say: "You have two fixed disk drives in your system. Check the >drive(s) you would like FreeBSD installed on." For each drive checked, >"How much of this disk would you like dedicated to FreeBSD: ___%" This >should comprise the *entire* disk menu. > >I know developing software to do this is difficult, if you plan to >support more than one piece of hardware. This doesn't mean it is >impossible, and doesn't mean the FreeBSD group won't have it. As a >matter of fact, many talented people are working on improving the >installation system already. > >Let's never forget that making something easy to install means more >people have a chance to understand how good it is. If they can't >install it, THEY WON'T COME! > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes Peters Softweyr LLC >http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:20:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16644 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:20:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16639 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA08066; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:20:45 -0800 (PST) To: Wes Peters cc: Jan Koum , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD GUI, revisited (was Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 00:41:13 MST." <199711030741.AAA20103@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 00:20:45 -0800 Message-ID: <8062.878545245@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I know developing software to do this is difficult, if you plan to > support more than one piece of hardware. This doesn't mean it is > impossible, and doesn't mean the FreeBSD group won't have it. As a > matter of fact, many talented people are working on improving the > installation system already. And this is going so slowly and generally badly that I'm quite tempted to say at this point that sysinstall is going to be as good as it gets for us, so you folks better get used to it. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:32:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17257 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:32:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17250 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:32:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id BAA20209; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:42:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:42:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030842.BAA20209@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Petri Helenius CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: de driver In-Reply-To: <199711020925.LAA01948@silver.sms.fi> References: <199711020925.LAA01948@silver.sms.fi> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Petri Helenius writes: > I pulled the cable from a SMC de0 card and put it back on. All link > lights, etc came nicely back on but the OS thought that: > [...] > At the failure it logged: > de0: link down: cable problem? Yeah, silly isn't it? You can just 'ifconfig de0 up' to get it back. This really bit my using FreeBSD for a test station, until I switched from using a crossover cable to a hub and two cables; we change the unit the FreeBSD machine is connected to every 96 seconds. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:35:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17406 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17396 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:35:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id BAA20215; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:45:37 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:45:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711030845.BAA20215@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Eivind Eklund CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [tore@yes.no: FreeBSD - Slogan!] In-Reply-To: <19971102171132.44270@bitbox.follo.net> References: <19971102171132.44270@bitbox.follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund writes: > Below are what our sales/advertising exec came up with after running a > brainstorming and weeding session with me. > > FreeBSD: Download your future today! This one is quite good; I like it! > -- > Tore Dahl | Yes Interactive AS | voice: +47 64 855200 > email: tore@yes.no | http://www.yes.no/ | fax: +47 64 855201 -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:40:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17785 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA17777 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:40:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA01552; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:39:32 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA05788; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:48:02 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971103084802.QF38080@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:48:02 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: stephane@cybersurf.net (Stephane Raimbault) Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? References: <000701bce570$9ed09960$0100a8c0@einstein.cybersurf.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <000701bce570$9ed09960$0100a8c0@einstein.cybersurf.net>; from Stephane Raimbault on Oct 30, 1997 20:15:50 -0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Stephane Raimbault wrote: > So, I'm just wondering what Window Manager some of you use. I am currently > using twm which comes with XFree86. Just to make the list complete, and since nobody mentioned it before (i'm personally an fvwm-1 user myself): there's also olvwm, giving you the look&feel of a Sun workstation. Unfortunately, the port doesn't ship with reasonable menu configuration files, and a number of the interesting *tool stuff from Sun's OpenLook is also missing, but it integrates nice if you are aiming at people coming from a Sun and OpenLook background. (I plan to add some sample config files to the port some day, now that i've crafted them. Alas, the window manager dumps core if none of the files exists, and you try to open a menu.) As a matter of taste, i prefer the simplicistic OpenLook style much over the bloated and terribly colored CDE cr*p. (Please, don't start an endless thread about matters of taste. I know that almost everyone has a different opinion on this.) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 00:58:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18716 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:58:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from silver.sms.fi (silver.sms.fi [194.111.122.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18673 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:58:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pete@silver.sms.fi) Received: (from pete@localhost) by silver.sms.fi (8.8.7/8.7.3) id KAA01692; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:56:52 +0200 (EET) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:56:52 +0200 (EET) Message-Id: <199711030856.KAA01692@silver.sms.fi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Petri Helenius To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: de driver In-Reply-To: <199711030842.BAA20209@obie.softweyr.ml.org> References: <199711020925.LAA01948@silver.sms.fi> <199711030842.BAA20209@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15p7 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > Petri Helenius writes: > > I pulled the cable from a SMC de0 card and put it back on. All link > > lights, etc came nicely back on but the OS thought that: > > [...] > > At the failure it logged: > > de0: link down: cable problem? > > Yeah, silly isn't it? You can just 'ifconfig de0 up' to get it back. > This really bit my using FreeBSD for a test station, until I switched > from using a crossover cable to a hub and two cables; we change the > unit the FreeBSD machine is connected to every 96 seconds. ;^) > Yes, but I would lose the full-duplex if I would go for a hub and additionally would have to shell out the $$$ for a stack of hubs. Pete From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 01:00:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18857 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:00:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18805 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:59:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA08522; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:59:24 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:32:00 +1030." <19971103183200.43578@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 00:59:24 -0800 Message-ID: <8519.878547564@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Do we have to limit ourselves to one slogan? I agree it (they) should > be short, but there's no reason always to use the same one. For Not at all, but it's also not likely that we'll have many opportunities for doing new banners in the future and we're probably best off settling on one slogan for there, perhaps using some of the others at trade shows and such. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 03:51:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA26658 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:51:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bagpuss.visint.co.uk (bagpuss.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA26645 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 03:51:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by bagpuss.visint.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28382 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:51:32 GMT Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:52:37 +0000 (GMT) From: Stephen Roome To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Amazing contracts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Well, while bored again today I decided that instead of trying to find an ISP in Dallas, (any ideas, I need static IP and I need it tomorrow.), I read through one of our contracts, Thought this bit was good: All of the following are considered unnacceptable; the transmission of computer viruses or pornography... etc... transmission of copyrighted material; mall bombing; mass mailing of unsolicited advertising... ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Personally I'm happy to see that some ISP's are willing to take a stance against such dangerous, criminal and/or terrorist activities, such as detonating explosives in shopping precincts. Steve. Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 05:26:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA02032 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:26:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01948 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 05:26:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199711031320.IAA00850@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:24:04 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: <19971101110728.09058@lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Fri, Oct 31, 1997 at 03:38:59PM +0100, Marco Molteni wrote: > > On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Jan Koum wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >>> This reminds me of something. FreeBSD is the grandson of 4.2BSD, > >>> right, the operating system which paved the way for the Internet. > >>> There should be some catchy phrase with that, but so far it's > >>> eluded me. Something like > >>> > >>> FreeBSD - the operating system of the Internet > >>> > >>> I'm sure somebody can improve on this. > >> > >> FreeBSD: from the makers of Internet > > > > I *love* these two, kudos to Greg and Jan. > > Thanks. The others don't seem to have paid much attention to it. But > overnight this variant occurred to me: > > FreeBSD: The original Internet Operating System. > > Thoughts? > Greg > Cisco wouldn't approve. Jamie Bowden System Administrator, iTRiBE.net Abusenet: The Misinformation Superhighway From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 06:13:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA04393 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from terror.hungry.com (fn@terror.hungry.com [169.131.1.215]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA04384 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:13:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fn@LISP-READER.Hungry.COM) Received: (from fn@localhost) by terror.hungry.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16825; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:13:51 -0800 (PST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? References: <19971101144710.52462@lemis.com> <199711010511.AAA08464@dyson.iquest.net> From: Faried Nawaz Date: 03 Nov 1997 06:13:51 -0800 In-Reply-To: toor@dyson.iquest.net's message of 31 Oct 1997 21:39:59 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) writes: Gwm is more more of a curiosity to me, but some likely really like it. If it only weren't so big and slow... From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 07:57:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10031 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:57:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10026 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:57:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10347 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:57:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:57:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: localization, internationalization, POSIX Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk This may be of interest to l10n/i18n propeller-heads. Locale specification is currently different on just about every system. If it were standardized, we could take advantage of locale repositories like ftp://dkuug.dk/i18n/WG15-collection/locales. -john ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:55:22 -0800 (PST) From: Keld J|rn Simonsen Reply-To: unicode@unicode.org To: Multiple Recipients of Subject: (iso14766.3) iso14766 list created ISO/IEC 14766 is to become a TR on guidelines for National POSIX profiles and Posix Locales, and is a guide for Member bodies of ISO on how to create their national POSIX specifications. An email list iso14766@dkuug.dk list has been created to discuss the subject. WG15 people and IEEE people and others are welcome to join the list, please send such request to iso14766-request@dkuug.dk with a body of subscribe iso14766 Keld From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 08:34:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12443 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:34:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from db2server.voga.com.br (db2server.voga.com.br [200.239.39.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12424 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:34:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Daniel_Sobral@voga.com.br) Received: from papagaio.voga.com.br (papagaio.voga.com.br [200.239.39.2]) by db2server.voga.com.br (8.8.3+2.6Wbeta9/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12800 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:33:50 -0300 Received: by papagaio.voga.com.br(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.06 (346.7 3-18-1997)) id 03256544.005AFC5E ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:33:48 -0300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: VOGA From: "Daniel Sobral" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-ID: <03256544.005AE9F6.00@papagaio.voga.com.br> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:33:45 -0300 Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "FreeBSD? I don't know. Installed mine three years ago and never touched it again." From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 08:53:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13886 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from micro.internexus.net (root@internexus.net [206.152.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13840 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:52:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cliff@cliffsworld.com) Received: from c.f.ains (ppp34.internexus.net [206.152.14.225]) by micro.internexus.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA22031 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:52:13 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971103115236.00c4819c@mail.internexus.net> X-Sender: compatriot@mail.internexus.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:52:36 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: cliff ainsworth III Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: <8519.878547564@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Just a thought.... Then why don't we go with the "FreeBSD....the Power to Serve" (unless that one has been taken) its short, professional sounding and powerful. Which is what FreeBSD is from a concept and functional standpoint. And something the .org would like to market itself to the rest of the computing community as. All the submissions have been great. But if there a trade show, I am guessing it has to be a bit toned down and not a takeoff on other slogans, its too easy to considered non-professional with a shot at somebody else's slogan. However, its those funny slogans (usually the best ones) that are great for the other shows such as Def-Con and the H.O.P.E. cons where the other professionals show up. If anybody caught this months BOOT magazine. We all just took a hit. In there article about windows alternative O/Ses. They rated a number of the them. With Linux being the hard core original radical hacker O/S. Linux was also shipped on this months cd-rom. Wouldn't it have been nice if they shipped FreeBSD instead. That would have been a great boost for all of us. The quote was something like "the free unix community is looked upon as a group of radical commie something or 'nothers" I cannot remember the exact sentence. And we certainly weren't being put on any pedestal. (linux included). FreeBSD was mentioned only once as part of a sentence. Linux, Open DOS, Be, Rhapsody, OS/2 all got half page reviews. Personally, I think BOOT is more windoze slanted because of its gaming type articles. For trade shows. I think we should keep it short simple and professional. We have a lot of corporate bureaucracy to overcome. For the rest of us....keep it fun >> Do we have to limit ourselves to one slogan? I agree it (they) should >> be short, but there's no reason always to use the same one. For > >Not at all, but it's also not likely that we'll have many >opportunities for doing new banners in the future and we're probably >best off settling on one slogan for there, perhaps using some of the >others at trade shows and such. see ya!!! -cliff /=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\ PGP v5.0 public key "This is what I get for using humans.... Now wait a minute, I wrote you........ I've gotten 2,415 times smarter since then" -Tron 1982 \=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 09:41:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17525 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:41:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17517 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:41:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14321; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:30:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:30:25 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: Wes Peters cc: Petri Helenius , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: de driver In-Reply-To: <199711030842.BAA20209@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I know that at least in 10BT mode, getting the 3am driver will fix this problem. It's really frustrating to have to manually bring the thing up like this... Why not just pull down the 3am driver and call it ours? Owner of a dozen de cards, Charles On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Wes Peters wrote: > Petri Helenius writes: > > I pulled the cable from a SMC de0 card and put it back on. All link > > lights, etc came nicely back on but the OS thought that: > > [...] > > At the failure it logged: > > de0: link down: cable problem? > > Yeah, silly isn't it? You can just 'ifconfig de0 up' to get it back. > This really bit my using FreeBSD for a test station, until I switched > from using a crossover cable to a hub and two cables; we change the > unit the FreeBSD machine is connected to every 96 seconds. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 12:00:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28954 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28949 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA24445; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:59:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga20-22.ix.netcom.com(205.186.178.86) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024303; Mon Nov 3 13:57:29 1997 Message-ID: <345E2C88.DF1A2482@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 14:56:56 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cliff ainsworth III CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Boot Magazine rebuff [was FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations] References: <3.0.3.32.19971103115236.00c4819c@mail.internexus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk cliff ainsworth III wrote: [snip] > If anybody caught this months BOOT magazine. We all just took a hit. In > there article about windows alternative O/Ses. They rated a number of the > them. With Linux being the hard core original radical hacker O/S. Linux was > also shipped on this months cd-rom. Wouldn't it have been nice if they > shipped FreeBSD instead. That would have been a great boost for all of us. > The quote was something like "the free unix community is looked upon as a > group of radical commie something or 'nothers" I cannot remember the exact > sentence. And we certainly weren't being put on any pedestal. (linux > included). FreeBSD was mentioned only once as part of a sentence. Linux, > Open DOS, Be, Rhapsody, OS/2 all got half page reviews. Personally, I think > BOOT is more windoze slanted because of its gaming type articles. [snip] All the more reason for a widely read magazine to do some well deserved 'catch-up' coverage. One of the best kept secrets in the OS marketplace (in the US anyway). Not FreeBSD's fault of course. Next year is FSF's fifteenth anniversary. I recently corresponded with Jon Erickson of Dr. Dobbs Journal. They would very much like to cover FreeBSD in the commemorative issue for the FSF. One of their editors is an avid FreeBSD user. (not sure who) I know there was some affiliation between DDJ and W. Jolitz. They still distribute 386BSD on CD. Also not sure if there is a problem or history between FreeBSD and that particular mag, but they certainly seem to be interested now. So there is a call for papers. Direct proposals to the DDJ editoral staff. This does *seem* to be a ripe opportunity. Please correct me if I am wrong. Jerry Hicks jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 12:24:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00449 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:24:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00140 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:20:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2021337; 3 Nov 97 19:17 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01260; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:15:32 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971103191532.62668@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:15:32 +0000 From: James Raynard To: Joerg Wunsch Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? References: <000701bce570$9ed09960$0100a8c0@einstein.cybersurf.net> <19971103084802.QF38080@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <19971103084802.QF38080@uriah.heep.sax.de>; from J Wunsch on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 08:48:02AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 08:48:02AM +0100, J Wunsch wrote: > [re olvwm] > (I plan to add some sample config files to the port some day, now that > i've crafted them. I've been doing a bit of work on the xview/olvwm ports recently. I was thinking about adding the config files I use (which I found in an ancient Slackware distribution), but it'd be nice to have something better. > Alas, the window manager dumps core if none of the > files exists, and you try to open a menu.) Yes, the rules for where it looks for its config files are a bit screwed up. Tidying them up is one of the next things on my "to do" list. -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 13:04:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03643 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bytetech.com (bytetech.com [204.186.19.139]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03417; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from todd@bytetech.com) Received: from localhost (todd@localhost) by bytetech.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA03167; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:03:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:03:41 -0500 (EST) From: Todd E Ehrhart To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-security-notifications@freebsd.org, freebsd-security@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk subscribe From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 15:49:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14185 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:49:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14180 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:49:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id KAA22325; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:19:03 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:19:03 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <199710231835.LAA00672@pooh.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199710231835.LAA00672@pooh.cdrom.com>; from Kristina Jalna on Thu, Oct 23, 1997 at 11:47:57AM -0800 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As you probably know, the next edition of "The Complete FreeBSD" will be ready Real Soon Now. One of the things I haven't been able to decide upon is what to put on the back. The first edition was published in August 1996. It contained no networking chapters at all. The new edition contains over 200 pages on networks and has also been expanded in other areas. I'm trying to find a good text, and I'd like your opinions based on the old one. Here it is--let's have some feedback. ---- cut here ---- FreeBSD® is a full, professional quality UNIX operating system. FreeBSD includes: * Simple CDROM installation * Coexists with popular operating systems * Rock-stable performance * Complete development environment FreeBSD is based on Berkeley 4.4 BSD, developed by the University of California at Berkeley, and its contributors. "FreeBSD is based on the same BSD code base that influenced many commercial versions of UNIX." -Byte Magazine Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 80 Gigabyte, 1250 user ftp and www machine at ftp.cdrom.com. You'll get network support including: * World-Wide-Web servers. * The original, highly acclaimed, industrial strength Berkeley TCP/IP networking, the basis of the Internet. * Industry standard NFS, NIS and AMD servers with PPP and SLIP support make networking a breeze! * Full USENET News and mail reading software (nntp, trn, elm, pop, pine, mh). FreeBSD comes with the industry standard X Window system (X11R6) for the PC, XFree86 3.1.2. You also get a rich set of ready-to-run X utilities such as fvwm window manager, xjpeg, TCL/Tk, Xaw3d. The system comes with complete source code. FreeBSD provides a tightly integrated build system that lets you recompile the source tree with one command. FreeBSD comes with complete development environment with GNU v2.6.3 C and C++ compilers and GDB debugger. It also comes with packages such as PERL, TCL, scheme, logo, forth, basic, ICON and GNU emacs 19.30. For printing you get TeX 3.14, ghostscript, Hylafax, AFM fonts. The provided bash, csh, zsh and tcsh shells give you a rich choice of environments. FreeBSD supports ISO 9660 and RockRidge format CDs. This book helps you take your first steps with FreeBSD, from installing the system to getting to know the environment. You'll read about detailed descriptions of the installation process, including how to share disks between FreeBSD and other operating systems. You'll also learn to install and configure your X Window System, get to know FreeBSD, and reconfigure your FreeBSD kernel. Requirements: Standard ISA, EISA, VL, or PCI bus based PC (386sx to Pentium), 8 MB RAM. 60 MB disk space for a binary-only system and 340 MB for development system. "If you want stable networking or a powerful development environment, FreeBSD is the operating system for you!" ---- cut here ---- Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 16:30:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16732 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:30:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16724 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:30:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA22703; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:00:34 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971104110034.56757@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:00:34 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Stephen Roome Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Amazing contracts References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: ; from Stephen Roome on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 11:52:37AM +0000 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 11:52:37AM +0000, Stephen Roome wrote: > > Well, while bored again today I decided that instead of trying to find an > ISP in Dallas, (any ideas, I need static IP and I need it tomorrow.), I know that Freeside Communications in Austin does static, but I don't know if they have a presence in Dallas. > I read through one of our contracts, Thought this bit was good: > > All of the following are considered unnacceptable; the transmission of > computer viruses or pornography... etc... transmission of copyrighted > material; mall bombing; mass mailing of unsolicited advertising... > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Personally I'm happy to see that some ISP's are willing to take a stance > against such dangerous, criminal and/or terrorist activities, such as > detonating explosives in shopping precincts. Last time I was in Austin TX, I noted a couple of ISPs who had established themselves in shopping malls. Is this the case in Dallas as well? This may be pure self-preservation. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 16:33:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16954 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:33:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (SRI-56K-FR.mt.net [206.127.65.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16946 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:33:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: from rocky.mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20364; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:33:05 -0700 (MST) Received: (from nate@localhost) by rocky.mt.sri.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10238; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:33:04 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:33:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711040033.RAA10238@rocky.mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Snob Art Genre Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: References: <3096.878596384@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.29 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [ moved to -chat ] Snob Art Genre writes: > If you delete /usr/src/games/fortune, I'm going to load Linux on my > machine. Is that a threat or a promise? Nate From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 16:58:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18775 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18768 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:58:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksmm@kalypso.cybercom.net) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06193 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:57:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:57:56 -0500 (EST) From: The Classiest Man Alive To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711040009.TAA08962@ccomp.inode.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Gary Kendall wrote: : And I'm not sure it's necessary to remove all traces of the : game, just all traces of the trademarked word or phrase. Yes, I would think that this would be sufficient as well. I'd hate to start having to dig through Internet archives or the like just to play a quick game of Chomp or Space Invaders. K.S. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 17:02:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19180 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:02:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (serial.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19158 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:02:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14970; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:02:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:02:13 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" In-Reply-To: <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 80 Gigabyte, 1250 > user ftp Those numbers are a bit out of date. > PC, XFree86 3.1.2. You also get a rich set of ready-to-run X utilities such ^^^^^ as is that > FreeBSD comes with complete development environment with GNU v2.6.3 C and and that ^^^^^ > TCL, scheme, logo, forth, basic, ICON and GNU emacs 19.30. For printing you and that ^^^^^ > Requirements: Standard ISA, EISA, VL, or PCI bus based PC (386sx to > Pentium), 8 MB RAM. 60 MB disk space for a binary-only ^^^^^^^ Pro? :) > "If you want stable networking or a powerful development environment, > FreeBSD is the operating system for you!" Got no problem with that statement. :):) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 17:03:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19217 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:03:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19205 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA20636; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:59:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:59:02 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Nate Williams cc: Snob Art Genre , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: <199711040033.RAA10238@rocky.mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Nate Williams wrote: > [ moved to -chat ] > > Snob Art Genre writes: > > If you delete /usr/src/games/fortune, I'm going to load Linux on my > > machine. > > Is that a threat or a promise? Moving this back to Jordan's question ... I hate to lose source code that has merely sentimental value (I learned C by hacking old games, a while back) but (with the exception of fortune, which I like on my .cshrc as a hello type thing) there isn't any game in /usr/src/games that isn't better managed as a port. Not one functional line in there. Takes 7.5 megs of source. Reclaims enough to allow for a new package, like maybe Perl5? Anybody realize that perl is now so out of date in our tree, it's actually a negative selling point for FreeBSD? Perl is pretty major for web stuff, too. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 17:58:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24044 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:58:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24035 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:58:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00605; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:24:43 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040154.MAA00605@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:57:56 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 12:24:43 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Gary Kendall wrote: > > : And I'm not sure it's necessary to remove all traces of the > : game, just all traces of the trademarked word or phrase. > > Yes, I would think that this would be sufficient as well. I'd hate to > start having to dig through Internet archives or the like just to play a > quick game of Chomp or Space Invaders. Chomp? Space Invaders? Are these in /usr/games? What am I doing real work for? (WARNING: this message contains SARCASM. 8) mike From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 18:02:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24423 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:02:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24415 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:02:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA04552; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:01:37 -0800 (PST) To: Chuck Robey cc: Nate Williams , Snob Art Genre , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:59:02 EST." Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 18:01:37 -0800 Message-ID: <4548.878608897@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Moving this back to Jordan's question ... I hate to lose source code that > has merely sentimental value (I learned C by hacking old games, a while > back) but (with the exception of fortune, which I like on my .cshrc as a > hello type thing) there isn't any game in /usr/src/games that isn't better > managed as a port. Not one functional line in there. Takes 7.5 megs of > source. Reclaims enough to allow for a new package, like maybe Perl5? Again, all of this could be a port. People suggesting that this would be "lost forever" by removing it from /usr/src/games are simply missing the point. > Anybody realize that perl is now so out of date in our tree, it's actually > a negative selling point for FreeBSD? Perl is pretty major for web stuff, > too. We've realized that for months. Are you willing to do the work to convert it to bmake format? Because I do believe that's the gating factor here, not willingness to import it. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 18:15:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25474 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:15:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25464 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-68.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.68]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12235; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:15:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA27105; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:28:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711040128.TAA27105@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Stephen Roome cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: Amazing contracts In-reply-to: Message from Stephen Roome of "Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:52:37 GMT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:28:21 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Stephen Roome writes: > > Well, while bored again today I decided that instead of trying to find an > ISP in Dallas, (any ideas, I need static IP and I need it tomorrow.), I > read through one of our contracts, Thought this bit was good: > > All of the following are considered unnacceptable; the transmission of > computer viruses or pornography... etc... transmission of copyrighted > material; mall bombing; mass mailing of unsolicited advertising... > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Personally I'm happy to see that some ISP's are willing to take a stance > against such dangerous, criminal and/or terrorist activities, such as > detonating explosives in shopping precincts. Yeah, but did you think about the "transmission of copyrighted material" part? In its most strict interpretation you can't use this ISP to view any copyrighted web site or to download FreeBSD (which is copyrighted). Then again, their rule may be interpreted as allowing you to download (receive) but not upload (transmit). Any way you look at it, you are not allowed to claim copyright on your own web page. Or your email. Its enough to drive one to mall bombing. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 18:25:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26586 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:25:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26570 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcarmich@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (dcarmich@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA22685; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:25:29 -0600 (CST) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id UAA22627; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:25:29 -0600 (CST) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199711040225.UAA22627@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Changes to the text To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:25:26 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Nov 4, 97 10:19:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here's some things in the text that must be *changed* for the latest release (the changed lines are marked with an *): > > As you probably know, the next edition of "The Complete FreeBSD" will > be ready Real Soon Now. One of the things I haven't been able to > decide upon is what to put on the back. > > The first edition was published in August 1996. It contained no > networking chapters at all. The new edition contains over 200 pages > on networks and has also been expanded in other areas. I'm trying to > find a good text, and I'd like your opinions based on the old one. > Here it is--let's have some feedback. > > ---- cut here ---- > FreeBSD® is a full, professional quality UNIX operating system. FreeBSD > includes: *> * Simple installation from CD-ROM as well as floppies, network installation hosts, etc. *> * Coexistence with popular operating systems *> * Rock-stable performance *> * A complete development environment > *> FreeBSD is based on the Berkeley 4.4 BSD-Lite code base which has been *> developed by the University of California at Berkeley and its contributors. > > "FreeBSD is based on the same BSD code base that influenced many commercial > versions of UNIX." -Byte Magazine > > Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 80 Gigabyte, 1250 > user FTP and Web site at ftp.cdrom.com. You'll get network support > including: > *> * The high-quality, public-domain Apache WWW server. *> * The original, highly acclaimed industrial strength Berkeley TCP/IP > networking, the basis of the Internet. *> * Industry standard NFS and NIS servers with PPP and SLIP support make (amd is used on the client, not the server) > networking a breeze! *> * Full USENET News and mail reading software (various newsreaders, elm, pine, mh). > > FreeBSD comes with the industry standard X Window system (X11R6) for the *> PC, XFree86 3.3.1. You also get a rich set of ready-to-run X utilities such *> as the fvwm window manager, xv, and others. The system comes with > complete source code. FreeBSD provides a tightly integrated build system > that lets you recompile the source tree with one command. > *> FreeBSD comes with acomplete development environment with version 2.6.3 of the *> GNU C and C++ compilers and GDB debugger. It also comes with packages such as perl, > Tcl/Tk, scheme, logo, forth, BASIC, ICON and GNU emacs 20.2. For printing you > get TeX 3.14, ghostscript, Hylafax, and the complete set of AFM fonts. *> The provided bash, csh, zsh and tcsh shells give you a rich choice of *> environments. FreeBSD supports ISO 9660 format CD-ROMs with the Rock *> Ridge extensions. > > This book helps you take your first steps with FreeBSD, from installing the > system to getting to know the environment. You'll read about detailed > descriptions of the installation process, including how to share disks > between FreeBSD and other operating systems. You'll also learn to install > and configure your X Window System, get to know FreeBSD, and reconfigure > your FreeBSD kernel. > > Requirements: Standard ISA, EISA, VL, or PCI bus based PC (386sx to > Pentium), 8 MB RAM. 60 MB disk space for a binary-only > system and 340 MB for development system. > > "If you want stable networking or a powerful development environment, > FreeBSD is the operating system for you!" > ---- cut here ---- > > Greg > What do you think? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 18:30:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27086 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (iconz5.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27063 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from news.iconz.co.nz (status.gen.nz [202.14.100.1]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA162910878610617; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:30:17 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news.iconz.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id PAA31691; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:30:17 +1300 Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23565; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:30:25 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03305; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:30:25 +1300 (NZDT) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:30:24 +1300 (NZDT) From: Jonathan Chen To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" In-Reply-To: <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: > Requirements: Standard ISA, EISA, VL, or PCI bus based PC (386sx to ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Pentium), 8 MB RAM. 60 MB disk space for a binary-only > system and 340 MB for development system. How about "Minimum Requirements"? -- Jonathan Chen Once is dumb luck. Twice is coincidence. Three times and Somebody Is Trying To Tell You Something. From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 18:33:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27370 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:33:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27363 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcarmich@Mars.mcs.net) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (dcarmich@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA23107; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:32:53 -0600 (CST) Received: (from dcarmich@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id UAA24538; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:32:53 -0600 (CST) From: Douglas Carmichael Message-Id: <199711040232.UAA24538@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Another change to make (beyond the ones I put in) To: grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:32:53 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Maybe have the upper limit for CPUs be Pentium Pro/Pentium II? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 19:15:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01613 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:15:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ha1.rdc1.pa.home.com (siteadm@ha1.rdc1.pa.home.com [24.2.5.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01606 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:15:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nellie@home.com) From: nellie@home.com Received: from [24.3.111.2] by ha1.rdc1.pa.home.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA28824 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:15:31 -0800 X-Sender: nellie@mail Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:15:26 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: hardware Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I am wondering if the following items are compatabile with FreeBSD before I buy them: a US CD ROM drive a Toshiba CD drive Matrox Millenium II with 4mb WRAM an LS120 floppy/backup drive Ultra DMA HD's SB 64 AWE value edition Sound Card Thanks in advance :) phiberoptics From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 23:01:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17367 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from random.tpgi.com.au (random.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17362 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:01:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eirvine@tpgi.com.au) Received: from gretchen (tar-ppp-172.tpgi.com.au [203.26.26.172]) by random.tpgi.com.au (8.8.4/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA04049; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:00:01 +1100 (EST) From: "Eddie Irvine" To: "Greg Lehey" , "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:54:42 +1100 Message-ID: <01bce8ee$8705dc60$ac1a1acb@gretchen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Four things made me chose FreeBSD over Linux when I was a *total* newbie six weeks ago: ^^^^^^ 1 Smaller number editions than Linux. Much less confusing. 2 Apple Talk support (I didn't know linux did this too - Only FreeBSD had it written up on the walnut creek site) ^^^^^^^^^^ 3 A book called "The Complete FreeBSD". I thought "Ah.. that sounds like what I want" 4 It was good enough for Yahoo. >FreeBSD is the operating system for you!" >---- cut here ---- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 23:39:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19897 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:39:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19892 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:39:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA21161; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:57:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:57:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711040557.WAA21161@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: FreeBSD slogan/advert ideas In-Reply-To: <7948.878544072@time.cdrom.com> References: <199711030656.XAA20051@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <7948.878544072@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > BSD, the operating system of the future. > > Always has been, always will be. > > That is to say it's always late? > > I think you could read that several ways, not all of them good. :-) Come to think of it, it used to be used with a very negative connotation with regard to the OSI network protocols. I was thinking more of the ubiquitousness of BSD personally, but I can see the second edge on this sword. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 23:45:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20391 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20375 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:45:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.5/8.8.5/frmug-2.0) with UUCP id IAA04510 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:44:54 +0100 (CET) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.12/nospam) id IAA15016; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:32:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971104083220.52540@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:32:20 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <199710231835.LAA00672@pooh.cdrom.com> <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 10:19:03AM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3780 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Greg Lehey: > Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 80 Gigabyte, 1250 > user ftp and www machine at ftp.cdrom.com. You'll get network support > including: Out of date too: Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 768 MB RAM, 139 Gigabytes, 3000 users ftp and www machine at ftp.cdrom.com. You'll get network support including: -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Nov 2 16:51:01 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Nov 3 23:45:26 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20429 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:45:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20392; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.5/8.8.5/frmug-2.0) with UUCP id IAA04517; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:45:10 +0100 (CET) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.12/nospam) id IAA15028; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:34:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971104083455.26874@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:34:55 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: peter@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? References: <4548.878608897@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <4548.878608897@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Nov 03, 1997 at 06:01:37PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3780 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > We've realized that for months. Are you willing to do the work to > convert it to bmake format? Because I do believe that's the gating > factor here, not willingness to import it. Peter has one he made just before 5.004 came out (he used one the betas). Peter ? -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Nov 2 16:51:01 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 01:10:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26840 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:10:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26834 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 01:10:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08657; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:10:45 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id KAA25902; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:10:44 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:10:44 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711040910.KAA25902@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Greg Lehey's message of Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:19:03 +1030 Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <199710231835.LAA00672@pooh.cdrom.com> <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > as fvwm window manager, xjpeg, TCL/Tk, Xaw3d. The system comes with > complete source code. FreeBSD provides a tightly integrated build system > that lets you recompile the source tree with one command. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "the entire system" would probably be better. A lot of people with background from - uhm - less professional OSes have no idea that there actually can be a single source tree for the entire OS. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 02:10:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA00646 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00624 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:09:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id FAA22344 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:09:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 05:09:54 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Anyone have a source for cheap Pentium Pro 180's with 256K cache? -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 02:31:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02083 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:31:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA02078 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:31:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA08309; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:30:50 -0800 (PST) To: Ollivier Robert cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 08:32:20 +0100." <19971104083220.52540@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 02:30:50 -0800 Message-ID: <8306.878639450@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Walnut Creek CDROM relies exclusively on FreeBSD for our 768 MB RAM, 139 > Gigabytes, 3000 users ftp and www machine at ftp.cdrom.com. You'll get > network support including: Actually, 1GB, 142 GB, 2750 users. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 15:16:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16886 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:16:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kemicol.rezidew.net (qmailr@kemicol.rezidew.net [208.216.242.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16873 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:16:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rezidew@rezidew.net) Received: (qmail 16416 invoked from network); 4 Nov 1997 23:51:08 -0000 Received: from soap.rezidew.net (rezidew@208.216.242.243) by kemicol.rezidew.net with SMTP; 4 Nov 1997 23:51:08 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1 [p0] on Linux Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:40:56 -0600 (CST) From: Graphic Rezidew To: Open Systems Networking Subject: RE: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk no, but I do have a source for cheap Pentium Pro 200's with 512k cache. try "EO's" at 847.358.7115. On 04-Nov-97 Open Systems Networking wrote: > >Anyone have a source for cheap Pentium Pro 180's with 256K cache? > >-- > >===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. > FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 >-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 > Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security >===================================| http://open-systems.net > >-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- >Version: 2.6.2 > >mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te >gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC >foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z >d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb >NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv >CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 >b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= >=BBjp >-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It's nice to be important. It's more important to be nice. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Graphic Rezidew rezidew@rezidew.net http://Graphic.Rezidew.net From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 17:06:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24583 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:06:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24576 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:06:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1017777; 5 Nov 97 0:34 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18067; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:18:14 GMT (envelope-from james) Message-ID: <19971104231812.21538@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:18:12 +0000 From: James Raynard To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Lecturer wins financial settlement from Microsoft UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [From the current edition of "Computer Weekly"] A part-time lecturer in safety-critical systems from Worcester wrung an out-of-court settlement from the software giant after claiming that the Windows 95 upgrade he purchased was not "fit for purpose" under the 1979 Sale of Goods Act. Mike Foster bought an academic version of Windows 95, but when he installed the upgrade he found he was unable to run Word or load Lotus Smartsuite. He claimed it took Microsoft a week to inform him of Service Pack error fixes, and when 14 disks of fixes arrived, it reinforced his view that the upgrade was not fit for purpose. Foster said the out-of-court settlement of about 500UKP would enable him to get a specialist to upgrade his machine to Windows 95 OSR Version 2 or Windows 98. He had sued on the grounds that the purchase price compensation offered by Microsoft was insufficent, claiming a precedent in St Albans council's 1994 court case against ICL over a faulty poll tax system. Commenting on his victory, Foster said he was pleased to have won, but wished the victor had been a major company with the time and resources to nail Microsoft down. "It's no use Microsoft just offering the refund price," he said. "There is no reliable alternative to Windows 95 for PCs and Microsoft should make it robust and reliable." He added that the company had a worrying lack of consumer focus. "Even much-maligned companies such as British Gas have timescales for responding to customer complaints. Microsoft UK has none." [Interestingly, there are quite a few letters in this edition complaining about lack of choice in operating systems. Unfortunately, the readership consists of IT professionals, and when did anyone listen to us? :-(] -- James Raynard, Edinburgh, Scotland. james@jraynard.demon.co.uk http://www.freebsd.org/~jraynard/ From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 17:23:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25542 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:23:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25528 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:23:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA16519; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:53:25 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19971105115325.45624@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:53:25 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Beyond slogans: Describe "The Complete FreeBSD" References: <199710231835.LAA00672@pooh.cdrom.com> <19971104101903.13288@lemis.com> <199711040910.KAA25902@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199711040910.KAA25902@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 10:10:44AM +0100 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, Nov 04, 1997 at 10:10:44AM +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: >> as fvwm window manager, xjpeg, TCL/Tk, Xaw3d. The system comes with >> complete source code. FreeBSD provides a tightly integrated build system >> that lets you recompile the source tree with one command. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > "the entire system" > would probably be better. A lot of people with background from - uhm > - less professional OSes have no idea that there actually can be a > single source tree for the entire OS. Or even what "tree" means. I've changed it to: FreeBSD provides a tightly integrated build system that lets you recompile the entire operating system from source with one command. Yes, I could leave out "operating", but I think it's more focussed with it in. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 18:26:00 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00432 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from istari.home.net (cc158233-a.catv1.md.home.com [24.3.25.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00426 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sjr@home.net) Received: (from sjr@localhost) by istari.home.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) id VAA16576 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:25:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:25:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Stephen J. Roznowski" Message-Id: <199711050225.VAA16576@istari.home.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD: Turning PCs into Workstations In-Reply-To: Mail from 'Greg Lehey ' dated: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:23:40 +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > From: Greg Lehey > > This reminds me of something. FreeBSD is the grandson of 4.2BSD, > right, the operating system which paved the way for the Internet. > There should be some catchy phrase with that, but so far it's eluded > me. Something like > > FreeBSD - the operating system of the Internet > > I'm sure somebody can improve on this. How about: FreeBSD: Continuing the tradition. From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 19:47:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06427 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:47:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06420 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:47:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from faber@ISI.EDU) Received: from ISI.EDU (vex-s.isi.edu [128.9.192.240]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08769; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:47:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711050347.TAA08769@tnt.isi.edu> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jbryant@tfs.net, Gary Kendall Subject: Re: mv /usr/src/games /dev/null - any objections? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 20:24:11 EST." <345FCABB.C7F61219@kew.com> X-Url: http://www.isi.edu/~faber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 19:47:34 -0800 From: Ted Faber Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Drew Derbyshire wrote: >Follow-ups deflected to chat on this tangent ... > >Ted Faber wrote: >> I don't think that's the mark of a sane society, but it's the way the >> law is written and is enforced. To protect their trademark from >> others they have to protect it from us. Xerox didn't and poof, xerox >> is an English word and 3M can include it in their adds. > >Last I knew, Xerox still defends it's quite valid trademark. Say Xerox >on TV when you mean 'photocopy' and if you're not using a Xerox (R) >copier, you get a phone call. From their lawyers. My bad. I had believed at one time that Xerox was in danger of losing its trademark because of lax enforcement (or so I had believed). Apparently, it's just the cannonical example of why one must enforce trademarks. Bad example, correct principle. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Faber faber@isi.edu USC/ISI Computer Scientist http://www.isi.edu/~faber (310) 822-1511 x190 PGP Key: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkey.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNF/sVYb4eisfQ5rpAQGlBAP/SS2bq78p3N0xS0oshc0E86prF2j3Ee6K Wu2l90bs8bsjBzpXYOOOTY3SVolOejkpjyAG0XtkwDniS5Sbk6Idd44ku9y81O2A otMEuV793eRHBxvNSLdAMO09qiOI9LROBI8OplV3oc25s2MfwiNEDRTMITc/YGZm 9xw+mI/6niY= =RyZz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Nov 4 23:51:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21564 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:51:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21558 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA04658 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:51:29 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA15750; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:35:52 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971105083552.LM12549@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:35:52 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Prefered X Window Manager? References: <19971101144710.52462@lemis.com> <199711010511.AAA08464@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from Faried Nawaz on Nov 3, 1997 06:13:51 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Faried Nawaz wrote: > Gwm is more more of a curiosity > to me, but some likely really like it. > > If it only weren't so big and slow... Yeah. I think it was one of the first (freeware) window managers that offered a Motif-style look (which was much less boring than the plain old twm), back in the days of 386BSD and `ref.tfs.com'. Anyway, it was not only dog-slow then on my old 386SX-16, but also buggy enough so i have abandoned it in favor of the upcoming fvwm some day. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 00:51:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25296 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:51:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25286 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:51:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id JAA05103; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:50:42 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id JAA15987; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:27:47 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971105092746.CJ29364@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:27:46 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: nellie@home.com Subject: Re: hardware References: X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: ; from nellie@home.com on Nov 3, 1997 22:15:26 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As nellie@home.com wrote: > I am wondering if the following items are compatabile with FreeBSD before I > buy them: > > a US CD ROM drive What is this? Please, describe technical features, not marketing names. > a Toshiba CD drive If it's SCSI, no question. If it's ATAPI, it will work very likely, too. > Matrox Millenium II with 4mb WRAM I think the shipped X server from XFree86 is not very excellent yet for this card, you might want to try one of their more recent beta versions, or use the commercial server from Xig. > an LS120 floppy/backup drive AFAIK, not compatible. (I don't use IDE stuff myself.) > Ultra DMA HD's There's code in -current to cope with the so-called ``Ultra DMA'', but i don't think you'll benefit much from it in the released versions. > SB 64 AWE value edition Sound Card No idea on this. Leave out the IDE cra^H^H^Hstuff, and go for SCSI instead. Start with a cheap NCR (actually, Symbios Logic) 53c810 controller, and buy the drives as you need them. You won't regret it in the end. The IBM DCAS 4 GB drives seem to be *the* current tip for SCSI hard disks. Cheap, cool, silent, fast. I think you almost can't buy any SCSI CD-ROM drive that wouldn't work with FreeBSD. For a backup solution, if reliability counts more to you than cheapness, save your money, and by a Real Tape Drive some day. Jonathan Bresler reported to be very happy with his Archive Anaconda 2750, this seems to be one of the cheapest drives that offers the quality i would consider minimum standard for a backup solution. (See the handbook section on tape drives.) For faster and cheaper backups, use /dev/null. :-)) You can't beat it pricewise, but anything else below a Real Tape Drive i've seen so far (floppy tapes etc.) seems to compete with /dev/null on the reliability of the stored data. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 01:42:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA28087 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:42:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (root@piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se [129.16.234.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA28082 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se) Received: from hallgren.se (ip181122.student.gu.se [130.241.181.122]) by piggy.mdstud.chalmers.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01434; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:42:05 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <34603F23.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:40:51 +0100 From: Tommy Hallgren Organization: FreeBSD X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org CC: md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se Subject: Thread at Redhat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hi! I found this at Redhat's place. Shocking! :-) regards, Tommy http://www.redhat.com/support/mailing-lists/archives/redhat-list/1997-April-4/0691.html Gene Wilburn (njo@interlog.com) Sat, 26 Apr 1997 09:48:30 -0400 Thanks to all who replied here and via private email. The replies were unanimous in their support for RH Linux as a solid, capable web server. I now feel comfortable in proceeding with RH, which was my preference anyway. My local guru appears to be out of date in his recommendation of freeBSD over Linux. I've been running RH as a web server in test mode and I've been quite happy with it. Now, if I can just slip it in on our official website before my boss gets NT happy :) Gene From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 02:28:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01128 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:28:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA01122 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:28:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA25176; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 02:28:07 -0800 (PST) To: Tommy Hallgren cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Thread at Redhat In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:40:51 +0100." <34603F23.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:28:07 -0800 Message-ID: <25173.878725687@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > My local guru appears to be out of date in his recommendation of freeBSD > over Linux. I've been running RH as a web server in test mode and I've I'm glad that you found an OS to suit you, but I still totally fail to see how your evidence of how this "guru" is out of date with his recommendation. FreeBSD makes an excellent web server, as numerous ISPs (from Yahoo on down) will attest. Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 03:01:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA02796 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA02780 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:01:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA09552; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 05:00:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga13-12.ix.netcom.com(204.32.174.44) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008734; Wed Nov 5 04:54:33 1997 Message-ID: <34605046.97386E92@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 05:53:58 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tommy Hallgren CC: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Thread at Redhat References: <34603F23.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tommy Hallgren wrote: > > Hi! > > I found this at Redhat's place. Shocking! :-) > > regards, Tommy [snip] Hi Tommy, Well, it's a RedHat mailing list, whaddya expect? I found the following thread from the same day *much* more informative with respect to RH: http://www.redhat.com/support/mailing-lists/archives/redhat-list/1997-April-4/0877.html Hehehe... jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 03:23:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA03737 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from konnections.com (mail.konnections.com [207.173.185.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA03731 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:22:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mallison@konnections.com) Received: from ip185-219.konnections.com (ip185-219.konnections.com [207.173.185.219]) by konnections.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id EAA05473; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:19:07 -0700 (MST) Received: by ip185-219.konnections.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCE9A2.64561C70@ip185-219.konnections.com>; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:22:13 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCE9A2.64561C70@ip185-219.konnections.com> From: Mike Allison To: Tommy Hallgren , "'wghhicks@ix.netcom.com'" Cc: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Thread at Redhat Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:22:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hey, I'm happy the guy found what he needed and it wans't Microsoft or some other silly OS. If you're concerned for his soul, send him a copy of FreeBSD and let him try it for himself. The Telling part was when he said he chose RH, which was his original choice, or words to that effect. He was just looking for a RH person to talk him into it and out of BSD. -Mike ---------- From: Jerry Hicks Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 3:53 AM To: Tommy Hallgren Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Thread at Redhat Tommy Hallgren wrote: > > Hi! > > I found this at Redhat's place. Shocking! :-) > > regards, Tommy [snip] Hi Tommy, Well, it's a RedHat mailing list, whaddya expect? I found the following thread from the same day *much* more informative with respect to RH: http://www.redhat.com/support/mailing-lists/archives/redhat-list/1997-April-4/0877.html Hehehe... jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 03:58:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA05506 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA05501 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:58:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25038; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:58:32 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id MAA29982; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:58:31 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:58:31 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711051158.MAA29982@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: md6tommy@mdstud.chalmers.se, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Wed, 05 Nov 1997 02:28:07 -0800 Subject: Re: Thread at Redhat References: <34603F23.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> <25173.878725687@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > My local guru appears to be out of date in his recommendation of freeBSD > > over Linux. I've been running RH as a web server in test mode and I've > > I'm glad that you found an OS to suit you, but I still totally fail to > see how your evidence of how this "guru" is out of date with his > recommendation. FreeBSD makes an excellent web server, as numerous > ISPs (from Yahoo on down) will attest. What do you expect? If somebody ask the Red Hat Linux mailing-lists, (s)he'll get the answer that Red Hat Linux works for running a web server. It does. If that somebody had asked the FreeBSD mailing-lists if FreeBSD works for running a web server, he'd get a yes too - because it works too. A much more interesting question to ask is 'how many of you have switched from X to Y?" for the relevant Xes and Ys, in the appropriate forums. And ask them why. Personally, I switched from Linux to FreeBSD because FreeBSD had much better performance and "felt much more right" - everything was there, it was obvious that this was an operating system people had lived in for a long time, and fitted to themselves - and it fit me too. These days, Linux is catching up performance-wise - some places FreeBSD is better, some places Linux is better. My personal impression is that FreeBSD still is a hair better on average, but it is no longer order-of-magnitude better for most things. The main reason I'm sticking with FreeBSD didn't occur to me until after I started using it - the professional mind-set of it's community. Linuxers (in my experience) tend to be much more young hot-shots with little Unix-experience before they started using Linux, and little large-scale development experience. The development of FreeBSD reflect its developers; it is managed in a professional manner. This allow me to do things like re-compile the operating system from source with a single command, verify what has happened to a file to create a problem I'm seeing, and keep a system up to date with the latest security patches on a day to day basis automatically. I'd never go back to Linux now. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 04:01:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05735 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:01:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05726 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:01:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghhicks@ix.netcom.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA21086 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:00:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from atl-ga13-12.ix.netcom.com(204.32.174.44) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma021077; Wed Nov 5 06:00:09 1997 Message-ID: <34605FA6.5072BF4F@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 06:59:34 -0500 From: Jerry Hicks Reply-To: wghhicks@ix.netcom.com Organization: TerraEarth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Thread at Redhat References: <34603F23.41C67EA6@mdstud.chalmers.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Tommy Hallgren wrote: [snip] > Gene Wilburn (njo@interlog.com) Hmmm... www.interlog.com runs BSDI 2.0 now. Interesting. From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 04:08:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA06109 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:08:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (ppp13.portal.net.au [202.12.71.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA06021 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 04:07:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00583; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:30:31 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711051200.WAA00583@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Graphic Rezidew cc: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Nov 1997 16:40:56 MDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 22:30:18 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > no, but I do have a source for cheap Pentium Pro 200's with 512k cache. > try "EO's" at 847.358.7115. Care to elaborate on "cheap"? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 06:21:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11979 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11967 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:21:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.7.6) with SMTP id JAA29244; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:19:20 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: Jerry Hicks cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Thread at Redhat In-Reply-To: <34605FA6.5072BF4F@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On shell.interlog.com they are running BSDI v3.0 Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Jerry Hicks wrote: > Tommy Hallgren wrote: > [snip] > > Gene Wilburn (njo@interlog.com) > > Hmmm... www.interlog.com runs BSDI 2.0 now. Interesting. > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 12:04:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03743 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:04:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dreamworld.demon.co.uk (dreamworld.demon.co.uk [194.222.129.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03703 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:04:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eddyd@dreamworld.demon.co.uk) Received: from localhost (eddyd@localhost) by dreamworld.demon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA00387 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:59:28 GMT Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:59:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Eddy Deegan To: FreeBSD Chat mailing list Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <19971105092746.CJ29364@uriah.heep.sax.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I've got some driver code for the Iomega ZIP via the parallel port. Has anyone else got this or got it to work? I'm going to try it out this weekend... ZIP drives are really excellent for quick backups. Eddy Deegan. On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, J Wunsch wrote: > For a backup solution, if reliability counts more to you than > cheapness, save your money, and by a Real Tape Drive some day. > Jonathan Bresler reported to be very happy with his Archive Anaconda > 2750, this seems to be one of the cheapest drives that offers the > quality i would consider minimum standard for a backup solution. (See > the handbook section on tape drives.) > > For faster and cheaper backups, use /dev/null. :-)) You can't beat it > pricewise, but anything else below a Real Tape Drive i've seen so far > (floppy tapes etc.) seems to compete with /dev/null on the reliability > of the stored data. > > > > -- > cheers, J"org > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 17:44:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27364 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27357 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:44:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00581; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:10:43 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711060140.MAA00581@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Eddy Deegan cc: FreeBSD Chat mailing list Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:59:28 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 12:10:43 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > I've got some driver code for the Iomega ZIP via the parallel port. Has > anyone else got this or got it to work? I'm going to try it out this > weekend... ZIP drives are really excellent for quick backups. They're supported in -current, and there's a (now outdated) driver for 2.2 systems available. (ppa3) You're not backing up much if you're using a Zip, but they work OK. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 20:02:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11895 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:02:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11887 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:02:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA03055; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:02:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:02:03 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Mike Smith cc: Graphic Rezidew , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-Reply-To: <199711051200.WAA00583@word.smith.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Actually I've reconsidered, I was going to use a Tyan tahoe-2 MB and get a single Pro and upgrade to another later. But seeing as how almost everyone is dropping pro's like a bad habbit im getting a tyan tomcat 4 isntead with dual Pentium 200's. It's just for a personal X workstation/development box. -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 20:34:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14616 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14571 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:34:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA23332; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:45:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:45:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), nellie@home.com CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <19971105092746.CJ29364@uriah.heep.sax.de> References: <19971105092746.CJ29364@uriah.heep.sax.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J. Wunsch writes: > > Leave out the IDE cra^H^H^Hstuff, and go for SCSI instead. Start with > a cheap NCR (actually, Symbios Logic) 53c810 controller, and buy the > drives as you need them. You won't regret it in the end. What's the current scoop on NCR 875 controllers? I heard Diamond pulled their FirePort 40 from distribution; what's up? Were they just getting inundated by moron Windows losers trying to hook IDE drives to SCSI controllers? What about other current 875 controllers? > The IBM DCAS 4 GB drives seem to be *the* current tip for SCSI hard > disks. Cheap, cool, silent, fast. > > I think you almost can't buy any SCSI CD-ROM drive that wouldn't work > with FreeBSD. Yeah. I've got a nice 2X I'll be glad to sell ya. I spotted some Plextor 6X's somewhere a while back for $69; those'd make good FreeBSD installation drives. ;^) > For a backup solution, if reliability counts more to you than > cheapness, save your money, and by a Real Tape Drive some day. > Jonathan Bresler reported to be very happy with his Archive Anaconda > 2750, this seems to be one of the cheapest drives that offers the > quality i would consider minimum standard for a backup solution. (See > the handbook section on tape drives.) > > For faster and cheaper backups, use /dev/null. :-)) You can't beat it > pricewise, but anything else below a Real Tape Drive i've seen so far > (floppy tapes etc.) seems to compete with /dev/null on the reliability > of the stored data. Hear hear! I had to restore the entire source code control database for my product from tape last week, after the disk lost a sector in the middle of the database and NT drooled all over the disk in the process of not recovering. You'll (hopefully) never know how happy I was that I'd bought that nice Sony DAT drive two weeks before. I'm moving the source code control system to our FreeBSD system as soon as we get the next release out. NT sucks -- anyone who'd trust critical data to one of those things is out of their mind. I'll transfer the 2940 and the DAT at the same time; I can make tar work just fine. ;^) Been there, done that, WORE OUT THE T-SHIRT. Do yourself a favor: if you're looking for a backup device, get a DAT drive. The drives cost a bit more, but the tapes are cheap, and you'll not regret it. If you're really putting together a system for FreeBSD, remember to spend your money in the important areas. First, throw out the IDE interface, don't even think about using it. (I do, but only on *other* people's machines. This one doesn't even have an IDE controller in it.) Second, buy motherboards, network cards, video cards, etc. that others have already gotten working. If you're using FreeBSD for other than developing FreeBSD, don't pioneer. Check the supported hardware list, ask here about specific items, find out what others did and did not have trouble with. Third, find out what will get you performance. Don't spend money on getting the 200 Mhz processor vs. the 166 when that same money will double your RAM; the RAM will do you more good than small performance gain on the processor. More disks are better, especially with SCSI. If this is a FreeBSD-only system, swapping on two or three disks on a fast SCSI controller will be a win. In short, I strongly agree with Joerg, and wanted to elaborate a bit on his arguments. I have some idea what I'm talking about; I just sold my thirteenth FreeBSD system this year. Yeah, small volume, but I built everyone by hand. Mine's next; it'll be a doozy for a trailing-edger like me. ;^) > Ditto. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 21:08:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16882 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:08:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16862 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.gsoft.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01281; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:33:32 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711060503.PAA01281@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch), nellie@home.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 21:45:21 PDT." <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 15:33:32 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > What about other current 875 controllers? Promise appear to have one. > > > If you're really putting together a system for FreeBSD, remember to > spend your money in the important areas. First, throw out the IDE > interface, don't even think about using it. (I do, but only on *other* > people's machines. This one doesn't even have an IDE controller in it.) This advice is *seriously* outdated, especially in the light of the current performance of 3.x systems. We are using IDE on 2.2 boxes with excellent results as well, and to suggest that people should never consider IDE is completely wrong. SCSI shines for heavily-loaded disk systems, particularly when concurrency is an issue. If, OTOH, your're building a workstation the cost savings from going IDE over SCSI will let you double your disk space. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 22:02:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19657 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:02:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19647 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:02:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA05420; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:02:20 -0800 (PST) To: Open Systems Networking cc: Mike Smith , Graphic Rezidew , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:02:03 EST." Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 22:02:20 -0800 Message-ID: <5417.878796140@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > Actually I've reconsidered, I was going to use a Tyan tahoe-2 MB and get a > single Pro and upgrade to another later. > But seeing as how almost everyone is dropping pro's like a bad habbit im I don't know which "everyone" you're talking about here, but everyone I know still favors the P6/200, with its faster cache and ability to cache above 512MB, for any server of truly serious capacity. I can only infer from this that you've been hanging out with the light-weights again. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 22:43:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23188 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:43:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23162 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:43:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id BAA09051; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:42:35 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711060642.BAA09051@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-Reply-To: <5417.878796140@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Nov 5, 97 10:02:20 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:42:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, mike@smith.net.au, rezidew@rezidew.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > Actually I've reconsidered, I was going to use a Tyan tahoe-2 MB and get a > > single Pro and upgrade to another later. > > But seeing as how almost everyone is dropping pro's like a bad habbit im > > I don't know which "everyone" you're talking about here, but everyone > I know still favors the P6/200, with its faster cache and ability to > cache above 512MB, for any server of truly serious capacity. I can > only infer from this that you've been hanging out with the > light-weights again. :-) > (JKH -- I know that you already know what I am declaring below -- but this info/opinion is meant for the more general audience.) I tend to agree -- but with the price of a P6/180 processor being about $250 or so, it is hard to spring for the extra $250. In fact, one can supposedly almost get 2 P6/180 processors for the price of one P6/200. Also, high end P5 processors cost MORE than a P6/180!!! The only reason that I would ever consider a new P5 would be to play with MMX. Since P5 is near the end of it's lifetime, P6 is near it's lifetime, and apparently, the P-II is going to have a short lifetime -- I suggest that almost any processor today is throw-away. (P6 and P-II are much nicer/faster than the P5(even MMX); Even though the P6 is probably deadest, it is still a solid performer under load.) It has all of the interesting features except for MMX. My suggestion is to get a solid Natoma motherboard, and a P6/180. The major argument against this is that it appears that 60nsec SIMMS are likely going to be out of vogue. Any ram that you buy other than SDRAM DIMMS are probably already obsolete. Of course, ram is very cheap now also. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 23:02:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25897 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:02:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25890; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:01:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA06041; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:01:48 -0800 (PST) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, mike@smith.net.au, rezidew@rezidew.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 01:42:35 EST." <199711060642.BAA09051@dyson.iquest.net> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:01:48 -0800 Message-ID: <6037.878799708@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I tend to agree -- but with the price of a P6/180 processor being about > $250 or so, it is hard to spring for the extra $250. In fact, one can $176 for the P6/180 from "Astak" and "Hi-Tech USA". $398 for the P6/200 from "Aten Research" or "Computer Parts Unlimited" - a $222 difference, to be more exact. ;-) Still, as I know you also know, consider the fact that the P6 would appear to be an eminently overclockable chip and when you're talking 180 you're really essentially saying 200 and, if your motherboard supports a 3.5X clock, 200 becomes 233. I've overclocked about 5 P6 systems so far (and directly heard of at least twice that many more) without any problems whatsoever. I'm not sure that the PII's are quite so forgiving, but if not then that's another slight edge for the P6. > ever consider a new P5 would be to play with MMX. Since P5 is near Which I'm still waiting to see a Unix application actually benefitting from. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 23:41:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27872 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27858 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:41:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.1/nospam) with UUCP id IAA02266 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:41:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.7/keltia-2.12/nospam) id IAA26136; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:24:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19971106082451.48030@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:24:51 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware References: <19971105092746.CJ29364@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Nov 05, 1997 at 09:45:21PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3780 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk According to Wes Peters: > What about other current 875 controllers? The ASUS PCI SC-875 is just great. Works wonderfully. FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Nov 2 16:51:01 CET 1997 root@keltia.freenix.fr:/src/src/sys/compile/NKELTIA CPU: AMD-K6tm w/ multimedia extensions (208.82-MHz 586-class CPU) Origin = "AuthenticAMD" Id = 0x561 Stepping=1 Features=0x8001bf real memory = 67108864 (65536K bytes) avail memory = 63442944 (61956K bytes) Probing for devices on PCI bus 0: chip0: rev 0x03 on pci0.0.0 chip1: rev 0x01 on pci0.7.0 vga0: rev 0x01 int a irq 15 on pci0.9.0 ncr0: rev 0x03 int a irq 9 on pci0.11.0 scbus0 at ncr0 bus 0 -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #46: Sun Nov 2 16:51:01 CET 1997 From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Nov 5 23:50:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28557 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28550 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:50:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id IAA17279; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:50:46 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id IAA20122; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:39:18 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971106083918.VO37674@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:39:18 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: nellie@home.com Subject: Re: hardware References: <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199711060503.PAA01281@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711060503.PAA01281@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Nov 6, 1997 15:33:32 +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As Mike Smith wrote: > > If you're really putting together a system for FreeBSD, remember to > > spend your money in the important areas. First, throw out the IDE > > interface, don't even think about using it. > This advice is *seriously* outdated, especially in the light of the > current performance of 3.x systems. I haven't been talking about performance. I have no doubts that the performance of an IDE disk subsystem can cope with SCSI (although some of the drive vendors still have a tendency to build the better drives SCSI-only, and conversely, build IDE drives in the assumption they won't have a hard life in front of them). What makes me vehemently vote against IDE is that i've read (part of) the ATA specs, and am now amazed that it's even possible that some of these drives do indeed work at all. The vendors must have had more serious sources than those specs, or nothing would work at all. And before you're going to buy anything else than IDE disk drives, where the vendors have some experience, well, really go and read the specs yourself. After stopping laughing, you'll probably write the same letters as me. :) -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 02:03:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04846 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA04826 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:03:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08730; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:03:30 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA03286; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:03:29 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:03:29 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199711061003.LAA03286@bitbox.follo.net> From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of Wed, 05 Nov 1997 23:01:48 -0800 Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 References: <199711060642.BAA09051@dyson.iquest.net> <6037.878799708@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk [Jordan K. Hubbard ] > > ever consider a new P5 would be to play with MMX. Since P5 is near > > Which I'm still waiting to see a Unix application actually benefitting > from. :) MMX is as far as I can tell usable for two things: Fast, simple graphics effects (Photoshop filters and effects in the demo scene) Block copying (but I'm not certain this is faster than other types of block copy) It can be used for very simple 3D routines; if you're doing advanced things with your 3D (e.g, fractal mapping, good shading) you're out of luck. I was once on a game programming team spending two weeks trying to find _any_ place we could benefit from MMX - we were unable to find any. Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 02:37:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA06139 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw (freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw [140.112.19.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA06127 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:37:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from woju@freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw) From: woju@freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw Received: (qmail 21246 invoked by uid 9999); 6 Nov 1997 10:38:30 -0000 Date: 6 Nov 1997 10:38:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19971106103830.21244.qmail@freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw> Reply-To: woju@freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD CDROMs in Taiwan (forwarded) X-Disclaimer: ±q¹s¶}©l¹ï¥»«H€º®e®€€£­t³d¡C Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Here is the letter i've written to djb@pobox.com, the author of qmail. By the way, i'm really happy to have the chance saying "Thanks!!", to those who pay efforts making FreeBSD, a beautiful OS, so nice & cute & free & ... :)) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear djb: Hello! Thank djb first, for qmail & many other interesting software :-) There are more and more qmail-powered sites in Taiwan: freebsd.ntu.edu.tw (http://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw) freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw (http://freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw) bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw .... I've also written some Chinese(BIG5) qmail-related articles to introduce and encourage installing qmail: gopher freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw 5. FreeBSD -> 3. howto-doc -> 2. qmail One of the most famous shareware(or freeware)-CD makers in Taiwan, HopeNet, ask me to make 2 FreeBSD cdroms for them. And i've planed to include qmail in those CDs. Some qmail-related data which would be put into these CDs: ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/www/data/qmail/www.qmail.org /* http://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/qmail/www.qmail.org mirrored from http://www.qmail.org/ */ ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/qmail/koobera.math.uic.edu/ /* mirrored from ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/ */ Some qmail-related files modified(or written) by woju: ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/qmail/ * qmail-smtpd.c: (wherever changed, marked "woju" for easy seaching) 1. reject mail by "smtp request host" 2. badmailfrom support "domain", i.e.: .hotmail.com -> *.hotmail.com 3. more smtp connection log info for "judging" who's the junk-mailing host: fprintf(stderr, "pass from %s@%s:%s:%s\n" ... some related files: qmail-smtpd.txt(Chinese BIG5 notes) & tcp.smtp & qmail.sh (qmail start-up script) * qmail on SunOS 4.1.X splogger.c & killqmail.pl & newqmaillog.pl -> To maintain log-info properly * anonftpd mirror-qmail.tgz: lsparse.pl(& other "mirror" related filles) are modified to deal with anonftpd properly. ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/qmail/koobera.math.uic.edu/ mirrored from ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/ using mirror-qmail.tgz :-) some related files: ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/packages/All/mirror-2.8.tgz ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/qmail/anonftpd.tgz -- /* re-packed from anonftpd-0.96.shar.gz, with some modifications & start-up script (anonftpd.sh) */ ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/qmail/anonftpd.txt -- /* Chinese BIG5 note introduing anonftpd.tgz & mirror-qmail.tgz */ And, some "slogans" i've been using to blurb the "HopeNet-FreeBSD-CDROMs": /* written in Chinese BIG5 originally, on: news://netnews.ntu.edu.tw/tw.bbs.comp.386bsd */ FreeBSD + QMail, the world-top-powerful Internet Server, your un-regretable choice. Some classical servers: ftp.cdrom.com (FreeBSD) - The "largest" ftp site www.yahoo.com (FreeBSD) - The most famous web server internic.net (QMail) - The world-top network information center "FreeBSD: the Power to Serve" "QMail: the Power to Mail" :p :) http://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw -> FreeBSD & QMail BLURB -- BOTH FreeBSD & QMail inclueded in the "HopeNet-FreeBSD-CDROMs": Welcome telnet freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw "bsd-cdrom board(local news group)" More info about CDs: ftp://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw/freebsd/cdrom1.txt (Chinese BIG5 notes) /cdrom1.iso (preview-version CD image) /cdrom1.iso.md5 /cdrom/00readme.txt (Chinese BIG5 notes) /cdrom/hopenet1/(qmail/) /cdrom/hopenet2/ /cdrom/cdrom1/ More info about FreeBSD & QMail -- /* most of those notes, or messages, or FAQs, writtin in Chinese BIG5 */ http://freebsd.ntu.edu.tw gopher freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw telnet freebsd.ee.ntu.edu.tw And, sorry for my poor English, i've been trying very hard writting this letter ^^;; *sweating* Best regards, woju . From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 02:52:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA06781 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:52:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06772 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 02:52:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA13761; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:51:40 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:51:39 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Eivind Eklund cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-Reply-To: <199711061003.LAA03286@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Eivind Eklund wrote: > [Jordan K. Hubbard ] > > > ever consider a new P5 would be to play with MMX. Since P5 is near > > > > Which I'm still waiting to see a Unix application actually benefitting > > from. :) > > MMX is as far as I can tell usable for two things: > Fast, simple graphics effects (Photoshop filters and effects in the > demo scene) > Block copying (but I'm not certain this is faster than other types of > block copy) > > It can be used for very simple 3D routines; if you're doing advanced > things with your 3D (e.g, fractal mapping, good shading) you're out of > luck. I was once on a game programming team spending two weeks trying > to find _any_ place we could benefit from MMX - we were unable to find > any. Bah. Everybody knows the only benefit you get from a MMX processor is the doubled L1 cache. > > Eivind. > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 04:33:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA10656 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA10638 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 04:32:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00322; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:56:24 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711061226.WAA00322@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, nellie@home.com Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 08:39:18 BST." <19971106083918.VO37674@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 22:56:22 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > As Mike Smith wrote: > > > > If you're really putting together a system for FreeBSD, remember to > > > spend your money in the important areas. First, throw out the IDE > > > interface, don't even think about using it. > > > This advice is *seriously* outdated, especially in the light of the > > current performance of 3.x systems. > > I haven't been talking about performance. I have no doubts that the > performance of an IDE disk subsystem can cope with SCSI (although some > of the drive vendors still have a tendency to build the better drives > SCSI-only, and conversely, build IDE drives in the assumption they > won't have a hard life in front of them). This paragraph starts out saying one thing, and ends saying another. How about either agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? Yes, it is possible to buy crap disks. As a general rule, crap disks don't last so long in the SCSI marketplace, but you will find them there as well. OTOH, I have yet to see any evidence that IDE disks are built "much" worse; MTBF figures are pretty comparable across the field. > What makes me vehemently vote against IDE is that i've read (part of) > the ATA specs, and am now amazed that it's even possible that some of ... > And before you're going to buy anything else than IDE disk drives, > where the vendors have some experience, well, really go and read the > specs yourself. After stopping laughing, you'll probably write the > same letters as me. :) You're quite welcome to visit my office sometime; you will, however, have to contend with the ATA2, ATA3, ATAPI, SCSI2, SCSI3, several SFF, CAM, SMART, APM, PnP and ACPI documents perched or piled on almost every horizontal surface. Yes, I read the standards. Yes, I have a reasonable idea how messy the ATA stuff is, but if you have bothered to follow its evolution you will see that it is slowly shedding the worst of the XT disk register set legacy and progressing about as fast as it can. Twelve months ago I would have said the same sort of rude things you still do; perhaps some reading will help you catch up? mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 08:26:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25448 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:26:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from schenectady.netmonger.net (schenectady.netmonger.net [209.54.21.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25443 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:26:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from postmaster@schenectady.netmonger.net) Received: (from news@localhost) by schenectady.netmonger.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA07372 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:04:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: schenectady.netmonger.net: news set sender to postmaster@usenet.netmonger.net using -f Received: from GATEWAY by schenectady.netmonger.net with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 6 Nov 1997 16:04:21 GMT From: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Message-ID: <63spq5$6j7$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Organization: NetMonger Communications References: <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org>, <199711060503.PAA01281@word.smith.net.au> Subject: Re: hardware Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199711060503.PAA01281@word.smith.net.au>, Mike Smith wrote: >> If you're really putting together a system for FreeBSD, remember to >> spend your money in the important areas. First, throw out the IDE >> interface, don't even think about using it. (I do, but only on *other* >> people's machines. This one doesn't even have an IDE controller in it.) > >This advice is *seriously* outdated, especially in the light of the >current performance of 3.x systems. We are using IDE on 2.2 boxes with >excellent results as well, and to suggest that people should never >consider IDE is completely wrong. > >SCSI shines for heavily-loaded disk systems, particularly when >concurrency is an issue. If, OTOH, your're building a workstation the >cost savings from going IDE over SCSI will let you double your disk >space. Dunno, I tend to agree with the SCSI advice for a couple of reasons. Having a FreeBSD box at home (from 2.0 through 3.0) with IDE, and several SCSI-based machines at work, it seems to me that the IDE is slowing my system down quite a bit. The drive seems to just run a lot more, particularly when doing something like a CVS checkout. IIRC, IDE was basically a coupling of the ISA bus to a hard drive, and doesn't have nearly as much brains in the drive or controller as SCSI. The other reason I think SCSI is a good idea is that you can get a SCSI tape or Jaz drive or something. I'm currently struggling with the decision to dig into the kernel and get my Exabyte Eagle TR-3 "floppy tape" working under FreeBSD, or to just go SCSI and "get a real tape drive". I wish I hadn't tried to save a few bucks in the first place - the money I've wasted in upgrading and replacing IDE drives would easily cover the cost difference of having gone with SCSI in the first place. Your mileage may vary (and apparently does). -- = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 09:00:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27556 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27534 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA00276; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:26:40 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711061656.DAA00276@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "06 Nov 1997 16:04:21 GMT." <63spq5$6j7$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 03:26:37 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Dunno, I tend to agree with the SCSI advice for a couple of reasons. > Having a FreeBSD box at home (from 2.0 through 3.0) with IDE, and > several SCSI-based machines at work, it seems to me that the IDE is > slowing my system down quite a bit. "seems"? Have you ever bothered to benchmark this? Are you comparing apples with apples? Perhaps I should have posted over my other signature, the one that says "high-speed data acquisition and realtime instrument control"? I *do* try to keep a reasonable eye on things that impact on storage. 8) > The drive seems to just run a lot > more, particularly when doing something like a CVS checkout. IIRC, > IDE was basically a coupling of the ISA bus to a hard drive, and > doesn't have nearly as much brains in the drive or controller as SCSI. You don't RC. IDE moved the register set of the WD1003 onto the disk; arguably a Bad Idea but see my response to Joerg for commentary on progress lately. The "smarts" in an IDE and SCSI disk are prettymuch comparable. > The other reason I think SCSI is a good idea is that you can get a > SCSI tape or Jaz drive or something. You can get ATAPI devices like these too. I don't recommend that. 8) > I'm currently struggling with > the decision to dig into the kernel and get my Exabyte Eagle TR-3 > "floppy tape" working under FreeBSD, or to just go SCSI and "get a > real tape drive". I wish I hadn't tried to save a few bucks in the > first place - the money I've wasted in upgrading and replacing IDE > drives would easily cover the cost difference of having gone with SCSI > in the first place. Uh, "floppy tape" != IDE. And if you're talking about IDE disks you must be buyin' the gold plated ones. > Your mileage may vary (and apparently does). Please note my original perspective; IDE is price-performance very competitive with SCSI, and becoming more so. IDE disks have reached the point where they can be *seriously* considered for new systems in classes other than "very cheap". People making impassioned arguments based on their experience "years ago" are strongly urged to reevaluate this technology at their leisure. No promises are made as to absolute results, merely that consideration for these disks should *not* be summarily dismissed as is the vogue. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 10:15:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02681 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:15:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from u1.farm.idt.net (root@u1.farm.idt.net [169.132.8.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02676 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garycorc@idt.net) Received: from idt.net (ppp-3.ts-1.mlb.idt.net [169.132.71.3]) by u1.farm.idt.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20387; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:15:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <346208CC.F6E8E378@idt.net> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:13:32 -0500 From: "Gary T. Corcoran" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03b8 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 References: <199711060642.BAA09051@dyson.iquest.net> <6037.878799708@time.cdrom.com> <199711061003.LAA03286@bitbox.follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund wrote: > > [Jordan K. Hubbard ] > > > ever consider a new P5 would be to play with MMX. Since P5 is near > > > > Which I'm still waiting to see a Unix application actually benefitting > > from. :) > > MMX is as far as I can tell usable for two things: > Fast, simple graphics effects (Photoshop filters and effects in the > demo scene) > Block copying (but I'm not certain this is faster than other types of > block copy) The other area where MMX can make a real difference is in video compression and decompression (e.g. H.261, H.263, MPEG). Not that I've seen any Unix programs actually using it yet - but I'm sure we will in time... Gary From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 10:48:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04472 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from schenectady.netmonger.net (schenectady.netmonger.net [209.54.21.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04442 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:48:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from postmaster@schenectady.netmonger.net) Received: (from news@localhost) by schenectady.netmonger.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15752 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from GATEWAY by schenectady.netmonger.net with netnews for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org (freebsd-chat@freebsd.org) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: 6 Nov 1997 18:22:56 GMT From: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Message-ID: <63t1u0$fbd$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Organization: NetMonger Communications References: <63spq5$6j7$1@schenectady.netmonger.net>, <199711061656.DAA00276@word.smith.net.au> Subject: Re: hardware Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 03:26:37AM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Dunno, I tend to agree with the SCSI advice for a couple of reasons. > > Having a FreeBSD box at home (from 2.0 through 3.0) with IDE, and > > several SCSI-based machines at work, it seems to me that the IDE is > > slowing my system down quite a bit. > > "seems"? Have you ever bothered to benchmark this? Are you comparing > apples with apples? No, I haven't bothered to benchmark this, hence my use of words like "seems". I try not to come across as authoritative on something I'm just giving an opinion on based on personal experience. Have you bothered to benchmark this? > Perhaps I should have posted over my other signature, the one that says > "high-speed data acquisition and realtime instrument control"? I *do* > try to keep a reasonable eye on things that impact on storage. 8) Oh, I see. You're more qualified to post your opinion than I am. The fact is that I do a lot of work on machines with IDE and SCSI and I decided to share my experience. I hear this "IDE is just as good as SCSI if you have only one drive" argument constantly, and frankly, I don't believe it. I suspect it has a lot more to do with scattered small files than sustained performance. I just installed 3.0-CURRENT on a brand new Western Digital 3.1GB IDE drive at home, and was extremely disappointed with the time it took to untar the ports directory (which, as you probably know, consists of thousads of tiny files and directories). I regularly do this kind of thing at work on SCSI systems and the difference is night and day. I also run a news server, so I have quite a bit of experience with "thousands of tiny files". I can report that on the news machine (which has an IDE boot and /tmp drive), heavy access on the IDE drive causes a lot more CPU load than heavy SCSI access (Adaptec 3940UW). > > The drive seems to just run a lot > > more, particularly when doing something like a CVS checkout. IIRC, > > IDE was basically a coupling of the ISA bus to a hard drive, and > > doesn't have nearly as much brains in the drive or controller as SCSI. > > You don't RC. IDE moved the register set of the WD1003 onto the disk; > arguably a Bad Idea but see my response to Joerg for commentary on > progress lately. The "smarts" in an IDE and SCSI disk are prettymuch > comparable. Then that doesn't explain the difference, and my theory is wrong. I'll have to read the specs at some point. Looking at /usr/share/misc/scsi_modes gave me the impression that there's quite a bit of firmware on a SCSI device, allowing it to do clever buffering, better sorting, scatter/gather, and a bunch of other things I don't know much about. > > The other reason I think SCSI is a good idea is that you can get a > > SCSI tape or Jaz drive or something. > > You can get ATAPI devices like these too. I don't recommend that. 8) Exactly. > > I'm currently struggling with > > the decision to dig into the kernel and get my Exabyte Eagle TR-3 > > "floppy tape" working under FreeBSD, or to just go SCSI and "get a > > real tape drive". I wish I hadn't tried to save a few bucks in the > > first place - the money I've wasted in upgrading and replacing IDE > > drives would easily cover the cost difference of having gone with SCSI > > in the first place. > > Uh, "floppy tape" != IDE. Duh. The point is that without SCSI, tape options are seriously limited. I happen to have a floppy tape drive that does not work with FreeBSD (as most of them don't). My options are either to make it work (I've written a few kernel drivers, but I don't know whether I want to spend the time on this) or "upgrade" to SCSI, which will give me a lot more choices. > And if you're talking about IDE disks you must be buyin' the gold > plated ones. Nope, but I've bought three of them, plus the tape drive. My point is that it's so savings if one buys IDE because one is trying to save a few bucks, and later decided to go with SCSI after all. > > Your mileage may vary (and apparently does). > > Please note my original perspective; IDE is price-performance very > competitive with SCSI, and becoming more so. IDE disks have reached > the point where they can be *seriously* considered for new systems in > classes other than "very cheap". I still think that depends on how you measure performance. Most benchmarks probably would show them about even, and for typical workstation uses, I suppose it doesn't matter. But for a news server, heavily-used shell machine, or other uses where there's a lot of noncontiguous disk activity, I would be concerned. Maybe unjustifiably - I think I'll cook up a benchmark to quantitatively test my allegation. > People making impassioned arguments based on their experience "years > ago" are strongly urged to reevaluate this technology at their leisure. > No promises are made as to absolute results, merely that consideration > for these disks should *not* be summarily dismissed as is the vogue. My experience is not "years ago". My experience is literally yesterday. I'm not summarily dismissing anything, just discussing my personal experience with these things. Perhaps in the data collection field, you regularly write large files sequentially, and it makes perfect sense to use IDE. -- = Christopher Masto = chris@netmonger.net = http://www.netmonger.net/ = = NetMonger Communications = finger for PGP key = $19.95/mo unlimited access = = Director of Operations = (516) 221-6664 = mailto:info@netmonger.net = From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 10:50:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04718 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:50:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04703 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@luke.pmr.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id MAA11289; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:50:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19971106125006.20805@pmr.com> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:50:06 -0600 From: Bob Willcox To: Mike Smith Cc: Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <63spq5$6j7$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> <199711061656.DAA00276@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199711061656.DAA00276@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 03:26:37AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 03:26:37AM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: snip > > You don't RC. IDE moved the register set of the WD1003 onto the disk; > arguably a Bad Idea but see my response to Joerg for commentary on > progress lately. The "smarts" in an IDE and SCSI disk are prettymuch > comparable. However, does the current specification/hardware for IDE allow the overlapping of commands (seeks on one drive with data xfer on another)? (Not to mention multiple commands pending per drive, i.e., command tag queuing.) None of the IDE controllers I have used do (admittedly, I haven't bothered with IDE in years). This is a big win on my systems that all have multiple disk drives on them (my primary workstation has 2 SCSI controllers and 8 disk drives). snip > > People making impassioned arguments based on their experience "years > ago" are strongly urged to reevaluate this technology at their leisure. > No promises are made as to absolute results, merely that consideration > for these disks should *not* be summarily dismissed as is the vogue. See my comment above. Till IDE supports overlapped operations to multiple devices on the same controller, it will lose in MY environment! (And I dare say, most environments where there is two or more disks and you are running an OS that takes advantage of SCSI's ability to overlap commands.) -- Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 13:53:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16626 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:53:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from freebsd.ntu.edu.tw (freebsd.ntu.edu.tw [140.112.1.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16607 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:52:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw) From: woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw Received: (qmail 6521 invoked by uid 9999); 6 Nov 1997 21:53:16 -0000 Date: 6 Nov 1997 21:53:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19971106215316.6520.qmail@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw> Reply-To: woju@freebsd.ntu.edu.tw To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD CDROMs in Taiwan (forwarded) X-Disclaimer: FreeBSD ­ÑŒÖ³¡¹ï¥»«H€º®e®€€£­t³d¡C Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk : One of the most famous shareware(or freeware)-CD makers in Taiwan, : HopeNet, ask me to make 2 FreeBSD cdroms for them. And i've planed to include These days, i've encountered LOTS of trouble deciding what is PROPER to be put into those CDROMs, and most of the trobles are COPYRIGHT-related problems. First, the Chinese BIG5-fonts' copyright is somewhat confusing; and later, more and more "confusing-copyrights" are found, in ports or distfiles. Most of them state like this: "For non-profit or non-commercial distribution (or using) only..." i'm not sure whether making FreeBSD-CDROMs & later selling those CDROMs via shareware(or freeware)-CDROM distributing company, is "commercial"(profit) using or not. Those CDROMs would be sold at proper price: 2 CDs, US $10. And it should be helpful making FreeBSD POPULAR (in Taiwan). However, the CDs are sold (distributed) by "a company"(HopeNet), make it looks like "commercial using." The more "copyright notice" i've seen(except for FreeBSD COPYRIGHT & GNU GPL), the more worried i become, and feel that i'm proberbly doing something "illegal" :( The Chinese BIG5-font, again, is really a BIG issue when it's copyright is concerned. Most UNIX Chinese-BIG5 environment use taipei* or et* fonts, and the copyright is belong to ETEN(www.eten.com.tw). i've written some mails to eten applying for leagl(or proper) right including et-related fonts in the FreeBSD-CDROMs, and the boss(or high-level manager) of HopeNet is now helping to talk with ETEN's boss about this issue. Hope that et-related fonts can become "really free fonts", or at least "leagl"(safe) used in FreeBSD. Most ports/chinese in FreeBSD using Chinese BIG5-fonts have the "problem": big5con: using taipei* fonts (which are converted from et* fonts) big5fonts: using taipei* fonts (whcih are converted from et* fonts) cxterm: using et* fonts The more "copyright-relaed" problems i've experienced, the more i appreciate "Free"BSD & "Free" Software Foundation. "Free" is really good and important! "Free" is even more important in commercial using, people won't buy a product with lots of (copyright-related)troubles. Any comments are welcome. Best regards, woju . From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 17:54:14 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29562 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29553 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00357; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:11:46 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070141.MAA00357@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Bob Willcox cc: Mike Smith , Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 12:50:06 MDT." <19971106125006.20805@pmr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:11:45 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > On Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 03:26:37AM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: > > You don't RC. IDE moved the register set of the WD1003 onto the disk; > > arguably a Bad Idea but see my response to Joerg for commentary on > > progress lately. The "smarts" in an IDE and SCSI disk are prettymuch > > comparable. > > However, does the current specification/hardware for IDE allow the > overlapping of commands (seeks on one drive with data xfer on another)? Yes. > (Not to mention multiple commands pending per drive, i.e., command tag > queuing.) Yes. > None of the IDE controllers I have used do (admittedly, I > haven't bothered with IDE in years). And from this vantage point you seek to criticise? > > People making impassioned arguments based on their experience "years > > ago" are strongly urged to reevaluate this technology at their leisure. > > No promises are made as to absolute results, merely that consideration > > for these disks should *not* be summarily dismissed as is the vogue. > > See my comment above. Till IDE supports overlapped operations to > multiple devices on the same controller, it will lose in MY environment! ... so I suggest that you start agitating for software support for more advanced IDE disk features. Mr John Hood (cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us IIRC) is our current high-end IDE god. Perhaps throwing the odd encouragement and (equipment) donation his way might see you able to save some serious money in the longer term. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 17:56:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29636 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:56:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29586 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00407; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:20:31 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070150.MAA00407@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "06 Nov 1997 18:22:56 GMT." <63t1u0$fbd$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 12:20:30 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > Perhaps I should have posted over my other signature, the one that says > > "high-speed data acquisition and realtime instrument control"? I *do* > > try to keep a reasonable eye on things that impact on storage. 8) > > Oh, I see. You're more qualified to post your opinion than I am. Damn right, as you have just admitted. > The > fact is that I do a lot of work on machines with IDE and SCSI and I > decided to share my experience. I hear this "IDE is just as good as > SCSI if you have only one drive" argument constantly, and frankly, I > don't believe it. ... and my point is that I *do*, having converted from your point of view some time back. Please note that I have a moderately broad collection of SCSI and IDE peripherals and adapters, and as I previously mentioned my current employer depends upon single-disk performance across a wide variety of file sizes (a few bytes to many hundreds of megabytes) on heavily loaded realtime systems. > I suspect it has a lot more to do with scattered > small files than sustained performance. "Huh"? What does "scattered small files" have to do with anything? We are talking basic disk performance vs. cost. > ... I can report that on the news machine (which has an IDE boot > and /tmp drive), heavy access on the IDE drive causes a lot more > CPU load than heavy SCSI access (Adaptec 3940UW). And I will observe that you are probably running with the IDE disk in compatability mode (flags 0) rather than taking advantage of any of the minor improvements in the 2.2 driver (flags 0x80ff), let alone the busmaster DMA in the 3.x driver (flag 0xa000). This is like talking about a 5MHz async SCSI 1 peripheral. Like I said, apples with apples. > Then that doesn't explain the difference, and my theory is wrong. > I'll have to read the specs at some point. I'll stop here. You do that. Then we can talk. Until then, for crying out loud, consider listening to people that _have_. If you don't trust me, try Soren (who has one of the faster worldbuilders running on IDE disks), or John Dyson (who had six IDE disks in a system at one stage, running ~10MB/sec sustained), or John Hood (who did the DMA work). None of us are complete idiots, thanks very much. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 18:36:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01833 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:36:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from luke.pmr.com (luke.pmr.com [207.170.114.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01827 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:36:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bob@luke.pmr.com) Received: (from bob@localhost) by luke.pmr.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) id UAA01513; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:36:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19971106203638.26346@pmr.com> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:36:38 -0600 From: Bob Willcox To: Mike Smith Cc: Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware Reply-To: Bob Willcox References: <19971106125006.20805@pmr.com> <199711070141.MAA00357@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199711070141.MAA00357@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 12:11:45PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 12:11:45PM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 03:26:37AM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: > > > You don't RC. IDE moved the register set of the WD1003 onto the disk; > > > arguably a Bad Idea but see my response to Joerg for commentary on > > > progress lately. The "smarts" in an IDE and SCSI disk are prettymuch > > > comparable. > > > > However, does the current specification/hardware for IDE allow the > > overlapping of commands (seeks on one drive with data xfer on another)? > > Yes. > > > (Not to mention multiple commands pending per drive, i.e., command tag > > queuing.) > > Yes. > > > None of the IDE controllers I have used do (admittedly, I > > haven't bothered with IDE in years). > > And from this vantage point you seek to criticise? No, not a criticism. Simply asking a question and qualifying my perspective. > > > > People making impassioned arguments based on their experience "years > > > ago" are strongly urged to reevaluate this technology at their leisure. > > > No promises are made as to absolute results, merely that consideration > > > for these disks should *not* be summarily dismissed as is the vogue. > > > > See my comment above. Till IDE supports overlapped operations to > > multiple devices on the same controller, it will lose in MY environment! > > ... so I suggest that you start agitating for software support for more > advanced IDE disk features. Mr John Hood (cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us > IIRC) is our current high-end IDE god. Perhaps throwing the odd > encouragement and (equipment) donation his way might see you able to > save some serious money in the longer term. This begs the question...does the currently available crop of IDE hardware support these more advanced features? If not, what can software do to overcome that? I would have thought very little. BTW, though I know little about IDE, I am quite familiar with SCSI and have written a few SCSI device drivers over the years. -- Bob Willcox Deliberation, n.: The act of examining one's bread bob@luke.pmr.com to determine which side it is buttered on. Austin, TX -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 18:54:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02927 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:54:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02898 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:54:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA24376; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:06:55 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:06:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711070306.UAA24376@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-Reply-To: <5417.878796140@time.cdrom.com> References: <5417.878796140@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Actually I've reconsidered, I was going to use a Tyan tahoe-2 MB and get a > > single Pro and upgrade to another later. > > But seeing as how almost everyone is dropping pro's like a bad habbit im > > I don't know which "everyone" you're talking about here, but everyone > I know still favors the P6/200, with its faster cache and ability to > cache above 512MB, for any server of truly serious capacity. I can > only infer from this that you've been hanging out with the > light-weights again. :-) Yes, and since he mentioned dual processors, the Pros are a *big* win over Pentiums due to the local cache. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 18:55:55 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03031 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03008 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:55:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-34.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.34]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11654 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:55:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA10964 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:37:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070137.TAA10964@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-reply-to: Message from "John S. Dyson" of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 01:42:35 EST." <199711060642.BAA09051@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 19:37:00 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I tend to agree -- but with the price of a P6/180 processor being about > $250 or so, it is hard to spring for the extra $250. In fact, one can > supposedly almost get 2 P6/180 processors for the price of one P6/200. Also, > high end P5 processors cost MORE than a P6/180!!! Something I expected to see more of is the CPU I bought. Maybe its quite a rarity and one day will be collectable. But I figured a PPro-166 with 512k of cache and 66 MHz bus speed would be a winner over a 180 with 256k and 60 MHz. I forget now, but my 166/512k was about $80 more than a 180/256k. Haven't tried overclocking. With my luck this is a failed 200/512k which Intel has found a way to prevent overclocking. FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE #0: Sat Nov 1 14:28:21 CST 1997 dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net:/usr/src/sys/compile/PPRO166 CPU: Pentium Pro (166.09-MHz 686-class CPU) Origin = "GenuineIntel" Id = 0x617 Stepping=7 Features=0xf9ff,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV> -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 18:56:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03146 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:56:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03128 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:56:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-34.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.34]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12078; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:55:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA10929; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:19:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070119.TAA10929@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Message from Wes Peters of "Wed, 05 Nov 1997 21:45:21 MST." <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 19:19:06 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > > What's the current scoop on NCR 875 controllers? I heard Diamond pulled > their FirePort 40 from distribution; what's up? Were they just getting > inundated by moron Windows losers trying to hook IDE drives to SCSI > controllers? > > What about other current 875 controllers? I bought an Asus PCI-SC875 recently from http://www.asacomputers.com. Noticed the price had risen on Diamond Fireport40's since I first saw the card. The Asus was cheaper. And I like it better because it has an external wide connector. Also thought it might be nice to put an Asus SCSI card on an Asus MB. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 19:08:30 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03798 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:08:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03792 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:08:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA24391; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:20:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:20:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711070320.UAA24391@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Eivind Eklund CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-Reply-To: <199711061003.LAA03286@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199711060642.BAA09051@dyson.iquest.net> <6037.878799708@time.cdrom.com> <199711061003.LAA03286@bitbox.follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Eivind Eklund writes: > MMX is as far as I can tell usable for two things: > Fast, simple graphics effects (Photoshop filters and effects in the > demo scene) > Block copying (but I'm not certain this is faster than other types of > block copy) You're right about the block copy - it is quite fast. The other use for MMX, as the name implies, is simple manipulation of video streams. The intent was to make it simpler, or at least possible, to implement video codecs in software. Any benefits to games or other 3-D effects were purely non-intentional. I have this from a pretty reliable source. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 19:13:59 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04016 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:13:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03997 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:13:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00635; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:39:19 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070309.NAA00635@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Bob Willcox cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 20:36:38 MDT." <19971106203638.26346@pmr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 13:39:18 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > > > None of the IDE controllers I have used do (admittedly, I > > > haven't bothered with IDE in years). > > > > And from this vantage point you seek to criticise? > > No, not a criticism. Simply asking a question and qualifying my > perspective. Hokay. We've been seeing a lot of flak from people that seem strangely proud that they've never bothered to look. > > ... so I suggest that you start agitating for software support for more > > advanced IDE disk features. Mr John Hood (cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us > > IIRC) is our current high-end IDE god. Perhaps throwing the odd > > encouragement and (equipment) donation his way might see you able to > > save some serious money in the longer term. > > This begs the question...does the currently available crop of IDE > hardware support these more advanced features? If not, what can > software do to overcome that? I would have thought very little. In many cases, yes it does. In other cases, software can do no more than it otherwise might. Still, most people putting IDE disks on FreeBSD systems are neglecting to enable either 32-bit access or multiblock mode, and thus unnecessaruly hamstringing their hardware. > BTW, though I know little about IDE, I am quite familiar with SCSI and > have written a few SCSI device drivers over the years. I think that a balanced perspective is good. 8) Don't get me wrong; I much prefer SCSI from a technical perspective. I just think that IDE is being bagged out of all proportion where in fact it's quite a capable alternative. mike From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 19:22:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04445 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:22:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04439 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:21:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA24403; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:34:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:34:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711070334.UAA24403@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <63spq5$6j7$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> References: <199711060445.VAA23332@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199711060503.PAA01281@word.smith.net.au> <63spq5$6j7$1@schenectady.netmonger.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Christopher Masto writes: > Dunno, I tend to agree with the SCSI advice for a couple of reasons. > Having a FreeBSD box at home (from 2.0 through 3.0) with IDE, and > several SCSI-based machines at work, it seems to me that the IDE is > slowing my system down quite a bit. The drive seems to just run a lot > more, particularly when doing something like a CVS checkout. IIRC, > IDE was basically a coupling of the ISA bus to a hard drive, and > doesn't have nearly as much brains in the drive or controller as SCSI. > > The other reason I think SCSI is a good idea is that you can get a > SCSI tape or Jaz drive or something. I'm currently struggling with > the decision to dig into the kernel and get my Exabyte Eagle TR-3 > "floppy tape" working under FreeBSD, or to just go SCSI and "get a > real tape drive". I wish I hadn't tried to save a few bucks in the > first place - the money I've wasted in upgrading and replacing IDE > drives would easily cover the cost difference of having gone with SCSI > in the first place. > > Your mileage may vary (and apparently does). Hear hear! This is what I meant in the first place. Plus, a good PCI-based SCSI controller is like investing in a good monitor: you don't need to buy another one for a while, if you're upgrading a machine in place. When that next, really fast motherboard/chip/ram combination comes along, you can just move your SCSI controller to the new machine. It's more like a tool investment than a disposable one. I prefer SCSI for the flexbility and reliability as much as performance. I've built plenty of systems, FreeBSD and not, using IDE, and generally they work just fine. None of them get the regular upgrade schedule (i.e. adding disks and other goodies) that my FreeBSD system does, partly because you don't just "throw another disk on." I've also been bitten quite a bit by interoperability problems with IDE disks, even recently. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 19:56:40 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06386 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06375 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:56:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id WAA22686; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:56:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:56:11 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-Reply-To: <5417.878796140@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I don't know which "everyone" you're talking about here, but everyone > I know still favors the P6/200, with its faster cache and ability to > cache above 512MB, for any server of truly serious capacity. I can > only infer from this that you've been hanging out with the > light-weights again. :-) yeah, yeah :) Actually If i did leave this out, it's not for a server, if it was i WOULD use the pro. But its just for a Personal X/Development can. The places i called in shopper about *5*, hardly a huge effort to locate a supplier, but those 5 have dropped the 180's and lower they have the 200's but felt like it was only a matter of time before the 200's were gone as well. So i thought I would save more money get a dual Pentium 200 tyan tomcat 4 and get more disk space with the money saved :) I would rarely use pentiums in a server for any client unless it was something like a shell server or something trivial. A pro would almost always be my first choice. BTW whats the scoop on the Pentium II's, I hear there not as good at performing as the Pro's. Just gossip i hear nothing factual. -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 Turning PCs into Workstations! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 20:39:19 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08739 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:39:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08723 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:39:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA24465; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:51:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:51:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711070451.VAA24465@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Bob Willcox , chat@freebsd.org CC: Mike Smith , John Hood Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <19971106203638.26346@pmr.com> References: <19971106125006.20805@pmr.com> <199711070141.MAA00357@word.smith.net.au> <19971106203638.26346@pmr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 12:11:45PM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: % ... so I suggest that you start agitating for software support for more % advanced IDE disk features. Mr John Hood (cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us % IIRC) is our current high-end IDE god. Perhaps throwing the odd % encouragement and (equipment) donation his way might see you able to % save some serious money in the longer term. Bob Willcox writes: > This begs the question...does the currently available crop of IDE > hardware support these more advanced features? If not, what can > software do to overcome that? I would have thought very little. > > BTW, though I know little about IDE, I am quite familiar with SCSI and > have written a few SCSI device drivers over the years. Most the new drives and controllers seem to support all of the new features. The two most shouted about ones seem to be "mode 4" and "ultra DMA." I just bought a Samsung 3.4 Gb drive with these features for my wife's machine, which runs Win95 and WinNT both. The drive is fast and quiet, and judging from the Samsungs we have scattered around at work, reliable. I suppose it is the "mode 4" that gives us the equivalents of detach and command queueing, Mr. Smith? Given what Mike has said (and I trust his opinions as much as anyone), I may save myself some $$$ on the next computer purchase and look into helping Mr. Hood with his IDE endeavors. Most PC motherboards come with dual IDE controllers on the board these days, because they're built right into the chipset, and using them saves not only money but complexity. Mr. Hood, what can I do to help? Wanna Samsung drive? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 20:46:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09094 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09088 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:46:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA00456; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:43:28 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711070443.XAA00456@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <199711070150.MAA00407@word.smith.net.au> from Mike Smith at "Nov 7, 97 12:20:30 pm" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:43:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Mike Smith said: > > I'll stop here. You do that. Then we can talk. Until then, for > crying out loud, consider listening to people that _have_. If you > don't trust me, try Soren (who has one of the faster worldbuilders > running on IDE disks), or John Dyson (who had six IDE disks in a system > at one stage, running ~10MB/sec sustained), or John Hood (who did the > DMA work). > I do think that it is best to stay un-religious. A good rule of thumb would likely include that a typical IDE config tends to be lower end than a SCSI config. It is also likely that a SCSI system will be higher performance than an IDE system. The criteria for (adequate) performance is continually getting higher, and for my typical single user, overloaded, workstation use, IDE is adequate. I wouldn't dream of putting IDE in a middle or high end server though. I have a certain attitude about all of this PC hardware, and that is it is all throw-away -- the less you spend on hardware that works for you, the better off that you are... The only winchester disk devices that I consider to be not-throw away are the high-end SCSI's. I just don't need the perf of a 10K or a high-end 7.2K drive. I am mostly CPU-bound with my workload on my mostly-IDE workstation with 2 PPro's. Specify a database, news or medium to large server app, or a system that needs to be a little more reliable or needs more space/speed than an IDE based solution, then SCSI is the best way to go. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 20:53:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09409 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:53:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09402 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:53:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id XAA00503; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:53:05 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711070453.XAA00503@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: WTB: Pentium Pro 180 In-Reply-To: from Open Systems Networking at "Nov 6, 97 10:56:11 pm" To: opsys@mail.webspan.net (Open Systems Networking) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:53:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Open Systems Networking said: > > BTW whats the scoop on the Pentium II's, I hear there not as good at > performing as the Pro's. Just gossip i hear nothing factual. > Most of the info that I have heard is that a P-II/233 is more often faster than a P6/200MHz than the other way around. I think that alot of techies like myself are unhappy about the 1/2 speed cache of the P-II. Also, alot of people are disappointed about the lack of future support of Socket-8 and the almost gratuitious change (except for marketing reasons) to Slot-1. For my apps, a P-II is roughly equiv to a P6, and not enough of an upgrade to be worthwile. In fact, for some apps (that can use phys mem > 512M), a P-II is a terrible choice, because it cannot cache >512M of memory. For the price, if you can find one and the associated MB, a low-end P6 is a very good deal. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 21:13:27 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10639 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:13:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10632 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:13:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA00623; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:13:05 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711070513.AAA00623@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <199711070451.VAA24465@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Nov 6, 97 09:51:28 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:13:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: bob@luke.pmr.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mike@smith.net.au, cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters said: > > I just bought a Samsung 3.4 Gb drive with these features for my wife's > machine, which runs Win95 and WinNT both. The drive is fast and quiet, > and judging from the Samsungs we have scattered around at work, > reliable. I suppose it is the "mode 4" that gives us the equivalents of > detach and command queueing, Mr. Smith? > I'll answer the question -- mode 4 is a fairly fast PIO mode. It is not desirable to use esp. on a PPro. You really want to use mode 2 DMA or Ultra DMA. My guess is that simple command setup for DMA on an IDE drive is faster than an equiv SCSI system. In fact, the command overhead of recent IDE drives is very impressively low. (For SCSI advocates -- I don't mean to imply that IDE is better than SCSI, only that it is getting surprisingly good, for such a low-end technology.) -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Nov 6 22:14:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13056 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:14:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from word.smith.net.au (word.smith.net.au [202.0.75.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13028 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word.smith.net.au (localhost.smith.net.au [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01132; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:48:38 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199711070518.PAA01132@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Wes Peters cc: Bob Willcox , chat@freebsd.org, Mike Smith , John Hood Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Nov 1997 21:51:28 PDT." <199711070451.VAA24465@obie.softweyr.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 15:48:37 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I just bought a Samsung 3.4 Gb drive with these features for my wife's > machine, which runs Win95 and WinNT both. The drive is fast and quiet, > and judging from the Samsungs we have scattered around at work, > reliable. I suppose it is the "mode 4" that gives us the equivalents of > detach and command queueing, Mr. Smith? No. "mode 4" is a cycle timing specification for programmed I/O. "ultra DMA" is an 8.33MHz synchronous transfer mode. "detach" is known as "overlapping", and "command queueing" is known as queueing. These features are identified by looking for the "overlapped" and "queued" feature sets in the drive identification data. I don't know of anyone that's yet come up with a marketting name for these features. You can read about them in the ANSI T13/1153D document; see ftp://fission.dt.wdc.com/t13/ mike From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 01:34:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA21558 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21551 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:34:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA16067 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:34:48 -0800 (PST) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Slogan contest finalists. Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 01:34:48 -0800 Message-ID: <16063.878895288@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk My apologies for the delay in sending this out. Here are the top 20 "finalists" for the FreeBSD slogan contest. Please cast your votes for any of the following slogans, culled from the list of ones submitted to me which weren't too overtly silly or in direct conflict with some other company's slogan (though #17 is a bit borderline there). RULES: Each person gets 3 votes which they may cast in any way they choose. If you *really like* a slogan and want to cast all 3 of your votes for it, that's fine. If you mostly like one and have a 2nd favorite, cast 2 and 1. If you're split between 3 then simply give each its own vote. :) Please submit your votes to votes@time.cdrom.com in this format: = e.g.: 3 = 2 6 = 1 Would cast 2 votes for slogan #3 and 1 for #6. Your message body should therefore contain 1 line at the minimum and 3 lines at the maximum. Anything else will simply be stripped out by my tallying program so DO NOT send comments or other data intended for human eyes to votes@time.cdrom.com since human eyes will not be looking at it and your extra typing will merely be wasted! :-) Thanks. PRIZES: The slogan winner will get a free lifetime FreeBSD CD subscription and a FreeBSD T-shirt. Stuffing the ballot box on behalf of a friend is also not encouraged unless said friend has *also* written your favorite slogan(s) - we all also have to live with the results of this contest, ladies and gentlemen.. :-) And now the proposed slogans and their authors: 1. FreeBSD: Power, not price. [Eivind Eklund] 2. FreeBSD: Turning PC's into Servers [Charles Wimmer] 3. FreeBSD: The power to Serve [spork] 4. FreeBSD: Speed, Stability, Source! [Lachlan O'Dea] 5. FreeBSD: Powering the Internet [Gary T. Corcoran] 6. FreeBSD: the best things in life are free. [Jeremy Lea] 7. FreeBSD: art, science and tradition beyond 2000. [Pedro Giffuni] 8. FreeBSD: Networking the future [Joao Carlos Mendes Luis] 9. FreeBSD: Why pay more for less? [Joao Carlos Mendes Luis] 10. FreeBSD: Software that actually works. [John Fieber] 11. FreeBSD: A System Worth Operating [Troy Settle] 12. FreeBSD: Because it works [Kevin from Atipa] 13. FreeBSD: Pure computing power. [ksmm] 14. FreeBSD: Find your PC's potential. [ksmm] 15. FreeBSD: When you care enough to run the very best. [Ray Seals] 16. FreeBSD: Making networks work. [Leo Papandreou] 17. FreeBSD: Where you want to go today. [Terry Lambert] 18. FreeBSD: Building Better Network Servers. [Alex Boisvert] 19. FreeBSD: The Operating System for the Internet [Annelise Anderson] 20. FreeBSD: Power, when price doesn't matter! [Tore Dahl] [Some editing was performed on a few slogans to make them just a bit more terse, but the essential message of each was unchanged]. Again, each person gets 3 votes and should send their "ballot" to votes@time.cdrom.com, one slogan # per line and with its vote count following the `=' sign. Thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 06:46:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA02577 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:46:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from LISP-READER.Hungry.COM (qmailr@pain.hungry.com [207.141.26.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02572 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fn@LISP-READER.Hungry.COM) Received: (qmail 18775 invoked by uid 452); 7 Nov 1997 14:46:14 -0000 Date: 7 Nov 1997 14:46:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19971107144614.18774.qmail@LISP-READER.Hungry.COM> From: faried nawaz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: lcc variant, freebsd. Organization: People's Front Against WWW X-Face: 7KOo"Tk4])Tf3Wbex#L/%WUH*DedEuL*K!PNf<'g-*P_XSK*(9IrOn\D PJoiVR}:;a|p/de&g%M>)yip8(Duc>*N_kY+?2o3R$@O4U|HPAJxSdB[@D%J~w6U3a7fT.vjqy=?^a uKIbPo'_{n2ZP|wW#EY*?&6d|9MNMkdhL.i>GGU-Nf&M0dRen@1T,4'lSM69=@C@5v4qMmIYl?{G9> J&pzyBX=pbD[s)8W$~6Cv$$1(Lf6(x1l}@{e,WM9Jw[A6gzIFvlVRdQyq`u9u>7Dm|3dje-/J;^zUv )vfv0cN\h-qaSx3N79WG}e2WzkL,C(.QGC^K:%(9,), Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk From: Prof John Gough Subject: gardens point / lcc hybrid available Keywords: C, lcc, analysis Newsgroups: comp.compilers Date: 7 Nov 1997 00:46:36 -0500 Organization: Compilers Central Sender: johnl@iecc.com Approved: compilers@ivan.iecc.com Message-ID: <97-11-031@comp.compilers> NNTP-Posting-Host: ivan.iecc.com "gardens point C" is a hybrid of lcc and the gardens point backends. A tree-walker traverses lcc's data structures emitting the "DCode" IR as used by the gardens point compilers. This is a abstract stack machine form similar to UCODE. The dgen backends which are being made available are for Intel-386, and use bottom up tree rewriting, SSA global common subexpression elimination and graph coloring register allocators. We may make the SPARC and other backends available later. Here is what you get--- ftp.fit.qut.edu.au in directory /pub/gpc gpc.README more description gpc.tar.gz v3.4 sources + modified files config.h, gen.c dgen.{freebsd,linuxaout,linuxelf,exe}.gz gzip binaries for our backends for intel/386 for: FreeBSD, Linux/a.out, Linux/ELF, Cygnus/Win32 respectively. dcode320.ps.gz latest reference document for the IR used (for those who are interested in how it all works) The readme talks more about the backends, and includes some SPECINT92 figures for FreeBSD. Anyone out there that uses our Modula2 or Oberon2 compilers still needs to download dgen, since these dgen versions have been modified to make them work with the irreducible flowgraphs which programs with goto's can create. Enjoy. John -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- K John Gough Internet: j.gough@qut.edu.au Dean of Information Technology VOX: +61 7 3864-2781 Queensland University of Tech. Fax: +61 7 3864-1507 http://www.dstc.qut.edu.au/~gough/ Automata _--_|\ Faculty of Information Technology rules OK / QUT Queensland University of Technology \_.--._/ Box 2434 Brisbane 4001 AUSTRALIA v Phone: +61 7 3864-2111 -- Send compilers articles to compilers@iecc.com, meta-mail to compilers-request@iecc.com. Archives at http://www.iecc.com/compilers From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 13:46:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26308 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:46:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26301 for chat; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199711072146.NAA26301@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS To: chat Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:46:19 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk are these two mail headers anything other than spam indicators? (X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS). nearly every peice of mail that has one or the other header is either spam or looping. examples: >From owner-majordomo Thu Nov 6 22:29:13 1997 Received: from rgalex.com (ovh.rgalex.com [209.36.50.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13635 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:29:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from selmark@usa.net) From: selmark@usa.net Received: from 209.36.50.251 by rgalex.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id BAA17530; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 01:24:46 -0500 Received: from by (8.8.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id GAA06563 for ; Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:36:56 -0600 (EST) To: hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: < > Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 10:36:56 EST Subject: Hello Reply-To: selmark@usa.net X-PMFLAGS: X-UIDL: c25633033561c9cb0b84f22ed949d8ab Comments: Authenticated sender is Want your Web Site submitted to over 250 search engines? >From owner-freebsd-announce Thu Nov 6 10:37:56 1997 Received: from bremen.or.jp (qmailr@ppp085.bremen.or.jp [202.238.73.85]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04003 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:37:43 -0800 (PS T) (envelope-from ashihara@bremen.or.jp) Received: (qmail 6665 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Nov 1997 18:37:14 -0000 Received: from mail1.koei.co.jp (mail1.koei.co.jp [203.183.116.5]) by mail.bremen.or.jp (8.8.5/3.6Wbeta6) with ESMTP id JAA15974 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:15:27 +0900 (JST) Received: from tora.eccosys.com ([199.100.7.97]) by mail1.koei.co.jp (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0100110-34854) with SMTP id AAA137 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:13:33 +0900 Received: (qmail 19048 invoked from network); 5 Nov 1997 00:14:55 -0000 Received: from jaz.jp.freebsd.org (133.11.156.38) by tora.eccosys.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 1997 00:14:55 -0000 Received: by jaz.jp.freebsd.org (8.8.8+2.7Wbeta7/8.7.3) id JAA17149 Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:12:31 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199711041951.UAA02408@gvr.gvr.org> From: FreeBSD Security Officer To: freebsd-announce@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:01:00 +0100 (MET) Reply-To: security-officer@FreeBSD.ORG X-ML-maintainer: owner-announce-jp@jp.FreeBSD.org Precedence: list X-Distribute: distribute [version 2.1 (Alpha) patchlevel=20] X-Sequence: announce-jp 75 Subject: ANNOUNCE: FreeBSD Security Advisory: FreeBSD-SA-97:05.open Errors-To: owner-announce-jp@jp.freebsd.org Sender: owner-announce-jp@jp.freebsd.org X-UIDL: ea3fbe2f6c65e254e9d1482f6b354a18 Status: U jmb ps. i'm offline till saturday night (-500 GMT) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 14:40:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29039 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from zeus.xtalwind.net (serial.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29006 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:39:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@diamond.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (zeus.xtalwind.net [127.0.0.1]) by zeus.xtalwind.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24320 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:40:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:40:25 -0500 (EST) From: jack X-Sender: jack@zeus.xtalwind.net To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS In-Reply-To: <199711072146.NAA26301@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > are these two mail headers anything other than spam indicators? > (X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS). A pop3 server will insert X-UIDL. X-PMFLAGS ??? > Comments: Authenticated sender is AFAIK, Pegasus is the only legitimate mail client that puts this ~Authenticated sender' crap in. If that is in the header and "X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for " is not, it is spam. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Finger jacko@diamond.xtalwind.net or jack@xtalwind.net http://www.xtalwind.net/~jacko/pubpgp.html #include for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 14:53:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29713 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:53:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from elmira.functional.com (elmira.functional.com [198.82.216.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29703; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:53:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grail@elmira.functional.com) Received: (from grail@localhost) by elmira.functional.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14412; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:52:57 GMT Message-ID: <19971107225256.08480@functional.com> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:52:56 +0000 From: Giao Nguyen To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS References: <199711072146.NAA26301@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199711072146.NAA26301@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Fri, Nov 07, 1997 at 01:46:19PM -0800 X-Quote: Funny how your feet in dreams never touch the earth. X-Attribute: Heart, _These Dreams_ X-Saying: Maniacal laughter is the best medicine. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler said: > are these two mail headers anything other than spam indicators? > (X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS). I think X-UIDL is associated with POP3. All the mail that I get through POP3 have the X-UIDL field set. -- Giao Nguyen FIS Technologies Software Design and Network Solutions From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 15:20:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01105 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:20:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01096 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id AAA12014 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:20:48 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA04052; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:16:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971108001615.TR41338@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:16:15 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware References: <199711070451.VAA24465@obie.softweyr.ml.org> <199711070513.AAA00623@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711070513.AAA00623@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Nov 7, 1997 00:13:05 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John S. Dyson wrote: > (For SCSI advocates -- I don't mean to imply that IDE is better than > SCSI, only that it is getting surprisingly good, for such a low-end > technology.) I don't think it's much lower-ended than SCSI. The drive electronics' complexity is probably the same. The access interface (``register file'') is just crap. It is marketed in numbers an order of magnitude larger than SCSI, that's the only thing that makes it cheaper. If marketers would have been willing, SCSI could have been marketed the same. Marketers never look at technical arguments. (ISA ``PnP'' vs. PCI, IDE vs. SCSI, VHS vs. Beta, ...) I've got too many surprises with too many different IDE drives to ever touch it again. I'm used to hot-plug SCSI devices all over the place (first plug them onto the bus, then set the power plug), and i enjoy the feature to only set a single jumper on the new device before i plug it in. /sbin/dmesg usually tells me what ID is still available. :) Now, you could argue that i'm risking something when doing it this way, but i have been working this way for years, and i don't see why i should start to shutdown and reboot my machines to just change the peripheral device configuration. ;-) I would even hot-plug control- lers in scratch machines, but i know that not even the PCI bus has ever been designed to do _this_, so i bite the bullet and power-off before swapping them. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 16:21:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03755 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:21:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03743 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:20:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA21888; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:21:00 -0800 (PST) To: chat@freebsd.org cc: tech@cdrom.com Subject: Slogan contest. ARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:21:00 -0800 Message-ID: <21884.878948460@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk You folks are going to just hate me for this, but I'm afraid that a little mistake in the way I set up the vote counter has nuked all the votes I've tabulated so far [insert sounds of head striking brick wall here]. I'm really really sorry about this and can only ask for everyone's patience and understanding in submitting their votes just once again. For those who've already deleted my first message from their mailboxes, I append my original message below. Again, my sincere apologies for wasting everyone's time here. What happened is that instead of appending votes, it was writing the file each time from the beginning and, since I only submitted one vote of my own as a test, I didn't catch this until I went just now to look at the voting so far and found only the last vote in the file. DOH!! Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed [heads back to bed]. If you voted before, please resubmit your vote. If you haven't voted yet, now would be a very good time! :) I'm going to have to make my own collection of pointy hats for this one as I think the main one is already in use. Thanks! To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Slogan contest finalists. Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 01:34:48 -0800 Message-ID: <16063.878895288@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" My apologies for the delay in sending this out. Here are the top 20 "finalists" for the FreeBSD slogan contest. Please cast your votes for any of the following slogans, culled from the list of ones submitted to me which weren't too overtly silly or in direct conflict with some other company's slogan (though #17 is a bit borderline there). RULES: Each person gets 3 votes which they may cast in any way they choose. If you *really like* a slogan and want to cast all 3 of your votes for it, that's fine. If you mostly like one and have a 2nd favorite, cast 2 and 1. If you're split between 3 then simply give each its own vote. :) Please submit your votes to votes@time.cdrom.com in this format: = e.g.: 3 = 2 6 = 1 Would cast 2 votes for slogan #3 and 1 for #6. Your message body should therefore contain 1 line at the minimum and 3 lines at the maximum. Anything else will simply be stripped out by my tallying program so DO NOT send comments or other data intended for human eyes to votes@time.cdrom.com since human eyes will not be looking at it and your extra typing will merely be wasted! :-) Thanks. PRIZES: The slogan winner will get a free lifetime FreeBSD CD subscription and a FreeBSD T-shirt. Stuffing the ballot box on behalf of a friend is also not encouraged unless said friend has *also* written your favorite slogan(s) - we all also have to live with the results of this contest, ladies and gentlemen.. :-) And now the proposed slogans and their authors: 1. FreeBSD: Power, not price. [Eivind Eklund] 2. FreeBSD: Turning PC's into Servers [Charles Wimmer] 3. FreeBSD: The power to Serve [spork] 4. FreeBSD: Speed, Stability, Source! [Lachlan O'Dea] 5. FreeBSD: Powering the Internet [Gary T. Corcoran] 6. FreeBSD: the best things in life are free. [Jeremy Lea] 7. FreeBSD: art, science and tradition beyond 2000. [Pedro Giffuni] 8. FreeBSD: Networking the future [Joao Carlos Mendes Luis] 9. FreeBSD: Why pay more for less? [Joao Carlos Mendes Luis] 10. FreeBSD: Software that actually works. [John Fieber] 11. FreeBSD: A System Worth Operating [Troy Settle] 12. FreeBSD: Because it works [Kevin from Atipa] 13. FreeBSD: Pure computing power. [ksmm] 14. FreeBSD: Find your PC's potential. [ksmm] 15. FreeBSD: When you care enough to run the very best. [Ray Seals] 16. FreeBSD: Making networks work. [Leo Papandreou] 17. FreeBSD: Where you want to go today. [Terry Lambert] 18. FreeBSD: Building Better Network Servers. [Alex Boisvert] 19. FreeBSD: The Operating System for the Internet [Annelise Anderson] 20. FreeBSD: Power, when price doesn't matter! [Tore Dahl] [Some editing was performed on a few slogans to make them just a bit more terse, but the essential message of each was unchanged]. Again, each person gets 3 votes and should send their "ballot" to votes@time.cdrom.com, one slogan # per line and with its vote count following the `=' sign. Thanks! Jordan From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 17:39:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08246 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08239 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:39:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cj@accom.com) Received: from uucp5.UU.NET by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: uucp5.UU.NET [192.48.96.36]) id QQdosc21554; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from accom.UUCP by uucp5.UU.NET with UUCP/RMAIL ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:38:24 -0500 Received: from accom (accom [192.20.200.100]) by fugue (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA01553; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:28:25 -0800 Received: from flea (flea [192.20.202.127]) by accom (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA13646; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:28:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3463C038.3F54BC7E@accom.com> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:28:24 -0800 From: Colin Jensen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS References: <199711072146.NAA26301@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I use a procmail based filter called junkfilter (available from ) to kill junkmail. One nice thing about it is that it documents each of its rules and explains why they work. For X-UIDL, the check for spam says: +--- | # Invalid X-UIDL header (inserted by POP3 servers/clients). Valid ones have | # exactly 32 hexadecimal characters. +--- And for the Authenticated Sender, it says: +--- | # Pegasus mailer is the only mailer which legitimately generates | # "Comments: Authenticated sender is ..." so kill anything else. +--- Since October 7, junkfilter killed 38 of 41 spams I've received, without killing any mail I wanted to keep. Does anyone have any other junk filters they can recommend? - Colin From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 20:08:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14917 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14884 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA25629; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:20:38 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:20:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711080420.VAA25629@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Partitioning In-Reply-To: <199711070836.WAA02278@pegasus.com> References: <199711070836.WAA02278@pegasus.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Richard Foulk writes: > Yeah, right. > > Things are always harder than they seem initially. Except when they're easier. This hasn't happened to me lately, of course. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 20:11:53 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15098 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:11:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from smoke.marlboro.vt.us (smoke.marlboro.vt.us [198.206.215.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15089 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:11:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cgull@smoke.marlboro.vt.us) Received: (from cgull@localhost) by smoke.marlboro.vt.us (8.8.7/8.8.7/cgull) id XAA03763; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:09:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:09:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711080409.XAA03763@smoke.marlboro.vt.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: cgull+usenet-878961828@smoke.marlboro.vt.us (john hood) To: Wes Peters Cc: Bob Willcox , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith , John Hood Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <199711070451.VAA24465@obie.softweyr.ml.org> References: <19971106125006.20805@pmr.com> <199711070141.MAA00357@word.smith.net.au> <19971106203638.26346@pmr.com> <199711070451.VAA24465@obie.softweyr.ml.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under Emacs 19.34.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > Given what Mike has said (and I trust his opinions as much as anyone), I > may save myself some $$$ on the next computer purchase and look into > helping Mr. Hood with his IDE endeavors. Most PC motherboards come with > dual IDE controllers on the board these days, because they're built > right into the chipset, and using them saves not only money but > complexity. > > Mr. Hood, what can I do to help? Wanna Samsung drive? ;^) Yer all making a risky assumption that I'm a *Mr.* Hood. My mother was sometimes a Mrs. John Hood in a universe not too long ago or far away. :-) Well, it wouldn't hurt, especially since I don't have an Ultra DMA drive yet, but the code should support Ultra DMA drives on systems with the Intel PIIX4 controller (430TX and 440LX based systems). And even if your box isn't supported for UltraDMA, it should work in one of the older DMA modes, which are actually sufficient for all current drives. --john hood -- Mr. Belliveau said, "the difference was the wise, John Hood, cgull intelligent look on the face of the cow." He was @ *so* right. --Ofer Inbar smoke.marlboro.vt.us From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 20:27:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15587 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:27:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15532 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:26:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA25638; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:29:09 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:29:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711080429.VAA25638@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: David Malone CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hard wiring media type on de0 driver. In-Reply-To: <9711071145.aa19169@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> References: <9711071145.aa19169@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk David Malone writes: > Our hubs reset themselves this morning with an interesting > side effect. It takes about 90 seconds for the hubs to restart. > During this time the the two machines we have with de based > ethernet cards with both UTP and Co-ax connectors decided to > switch to co-ax. Naturally when the hubs came back the cards > didn't.... > > Using "ifconfig de0 media UTP" fixed the problem. At the moment > I don't say what media type to use when initially ifconfig'ing > the card. If I did would the card refuse to change media unless > ifconfig'ed again? It would be nice to have some protection > from this. Nope, they'll shut off anytime you lose the connectivity. I don't think they actually switched; "ifconfig de0 up" will bring them back also. I'd suggest either a better hub (90 seconds to restart a hub?) or a UPS for your network stack. I have suggestions on quality networking components if you're in the market. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 21:39:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17921 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:39:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from obie.softweyr.ml.org ([199.104.124.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17913 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:38:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@xmission.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.ml.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id VAA25650; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:39:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:39:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199711080439.VAA25650@obie.softweyr.ml.org> From: Wes Peters To: Jay Nelson CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Partitioning In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jay Nelson writes: > I'm _really_ interested in knowing how you reduced an AIX file system > on the fly without blowing your feet off. The "official" way to reduce > an AIX file system is a restore from a mksysb. Nah, you can shrink the size of a live volume through SMIT. It's the coolest feature in all of AIX-land. I imagine *this* was some wild ugly code to get right. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 21:41:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18054 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18045 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:41:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (max4-94.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.94]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA19328; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:40:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.7/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA16195; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:20:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711080520.XAA16195@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: dkelly@HiWAAY.net Subject: Re: hardware In-reply-to: Message from j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) of "Sat, 08 Nov 1997 00:16:15 +0100." <19971108001615.TR41338@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 23:20:43 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch writes: > > I don't think it's much lower-ended than SCSI. The drive electronics' > complexity is probably the same. Am not sure if similar SCSI/IDE models from the same manufacturer actually use the same CPU's. While memory is cheap, its very common for an IDE drive to have only 128k, while thats a very low end SCSI drive. I don't shop for IDE drives, so I don't know if any have more than 128k. 512k or 1M isn't unusual for SCSI. Using that as an example would it be surprise if there wasn't a similar difference in CPU performance? > I've got too many surprises with too many different IDE drives to ever > touch it again. I'm used to hot-plug SCSI devices all over the place > (first plug them onto the bus, then set the power plug), and i enjoy > the feature to only set a single jumper on the new device before i > plug it in. The fine print in many SCSI manuals lists this as a feature, not a risk. I'm offline now but somewhere near http://www.storage.ibm.com/techsup/hddtech/hddtech.htm, my DCHS-39100 is specifically documented for hotswap, as long as you don't have the SCA version where power and everything is on the same connector. > /sbin/dmesg usually tells me what ID is still available. Care to remind me how to get FreeBSD to recognize a SCSI device that wasn't there when the kernel initialized? "man 8 scsi": ...opening a fixed SCSI device has the side effect of reprobing it, and probing with the bus with the -p option should bring on line any newly found devices. Any examples handy? Seems to suggest it requires locked down (fixed?) SCSI devices. But I'm not sure how to go about hot swapping. Could it be so simple as to attempt a mount? Or to open it with sysinstall for partitioning and prep? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Nov 7 21:55:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18429 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:55:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18421 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 21:55:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id AAA02771; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:54:49 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711080554.AAA02771@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <19971108001615.TR41338@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 8, 97 00:16:15 am" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:54:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch said: > > I've got too many surprises with too many different IDE drives to ever > touch it again. > You mean that the typical SCSI implementation doesn't have surprises, complexities and bugs? Just make sure that you buy the "right" drive, or the adaptor that we support microcode for. (Actually, it isn't the problem of the "right" drive -- it is the problem of don't buy the "wrong" drive -- but if you have bought the "wrong" one, the problem is the same.) -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 00:13:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22983 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from gratis.grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22977; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 00:13:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@greenpeace.grondar.za) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (BY3v5Pi8NhjctLo2jw1gc98uiAa8GxnK@greenpeace.grondar.za [196.7.18.132]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15556; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:13:36 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from mark@greenpeace.grondar.za) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (vGCZiPofeZGStS+EBvbYEzAKWHqLuJVJ@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by greenpeace.grondar.za (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23125; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:15:44 +0200 (SAST) Message-Id: <199711080815.KAA23125@greenpeace.grondar.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@hub.freebsd.org Subject: Re: X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 10:15:44 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > are these two mail headers anything other than spam indicators? > (X-UIDL and X-PMFLAGS). X-UIDL should only appear on an email when it is fetched via a pop daemon - IE the pop client or daemon adds it. Otherwise it is a sure-file way of identifying SPAM. I am not sure about X-PMFLAGS. M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 09:36:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15037 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:36:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15032 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:36:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from naglfar.ifi.uio.no (naglfar.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.54]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.7/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id SAA02788 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:36:45 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by naglfar.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:36:44 +0100 (MET) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Display adapter Organization: KRST X-url: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 08 Nov 1997 18:36:43 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk OK, so this probably belongs on an XFree86 mailing list, but: can anyone recommend a display adapter for running X? Keywords are fast ram, high refresh, and no expensive and unnecessary 3D functionality. -- * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 12:40:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22627 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:40:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22622 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:40:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id PAA16703 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:40:43 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711082040.PAA16703@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: FYI, about fonts on Xwindows To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:40:43 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: dyson@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk I have been somewhat disappointed about the jaggedness of the default fonts on Xwindows (XFree86.) In fact, I have seen a rough look on most X86 Xservers. I have tweaked and tuned, and got it a little better (by correcting the order of the fonts in XF86Config and choosing better (bigger) fonts for xterm, etc.) However, it still wasn't very that good looking. It appeared to me that the scaled Type1 fonts were the worst. On a lark, I bought a copy of the package of the 65 or so standard fonts from Adobe (you can do it electronically, if you have one of their font CDROMs, which I do.) And it appears that apps that use scaled fonts look better (e.g. Netscape.) Fonts appear to have less aliasing (stairstepping or jaggies), and slightly better shaped. The hard part is to produce a copy of fonts.scale for the Xwindows fonts/Type1 directory. If you want a copy of mine, just ask. It should be okay to give 'fonts.scale' away, because it is just a config file. I cannot guarantee that you'll see a difference, but I think that I do. The Adobe Type Basics (65 fonts) costs $100, which is a bargain price for the fonts. However, that package is licensed only for one machine. If you buy the fonts individually, I think that you normally get a license for 5 machines, but they cost between $40 and $200 for a small package of a few fonts in a typeface. I think that one would likely violate the license if they would service fonts for multiple machines from the Type Basics font package. It might be possible to interpret the license to use the fonts on one other machine, but that is pushing it. In order to "get" the fonts from the Fonts-online disk, you have to have NT, 95 or a Sun to decode them (and of course pay Adobe for them.) Once you do that, it is easy to transfer them to your FreeBSD partition. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 13:08:32 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23834 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:08:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23829; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:08:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co) Received: from pedro.inteng.com ([168.176.3.49]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA12284; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:11:14 +0500 Message-ID: <3464D36E.5131E01E@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 21:02:38 +0000 From: "Pedro Giffuni S." Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI, about fonts on Xwindows References: <199711082040.PAA16703@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Heh... I uninstalled OS2 Warp 3, but it left around this Type 1 fonts. I'll try to use them. It's still one machine, so I guess Adobe won't care :-). Pedro. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 14:21:38 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27174 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:21:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27128 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA26146 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:20:42 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA07836; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:52:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971108225215.ZD56214@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:52:15 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware References: <19971108001615.TR41338@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199711080554.AAA02771@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711080554.AAA02771@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Nov 8, 1997 00:54:49 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As John S. Dyson wrote: > You mean that the typical SCSI implementation doesn't have > surprises, complexities and bugs? I have yet to see a single SCSI disk drive that doesn't work out of the box. The only surprise i've seen so far was an HP drive that doesn't grok tagged commands. The only device i couldn't get to work in any useful way was the Iomega Floptical, but then, this was with FreeBSD 1.0 or 1.1, and since the drives proved to be crappy enough anyway, i didn't spend too much energy into them. This awfully looks like a much better success rate than IDE, where you often have to live with the surprise that two (out of two possible) disk drives of different vendors can't work together on a single bus. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 14:21:51 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27218 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27188 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:21:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.6.12/8.6.12-s1) with UUCP id XAA26161 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:21:32 +0100 Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.7/8.8.5) id WAA07848; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:55:54 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19971108225554.XL31799@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:55:54 +0100 From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: hardware References: <19971108001615.TR41338@uriah.heep.sax.de> <199711080520.XAA16195@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.60_p2-3,5,8-9 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Reply-To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch) In-Reply-To: <199711080520.XAA16195@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from dkelly@HiWAAY.net on Nov 7, 1997 23:20:43 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk As dkelly@HiWAAY.net wrote: > While memory is cheap, its very common for > an IDE drive to have only 128k, while thats a very low end SCSI drive. > I don't shop for IDE drives, so I don't know if any have more than > 128k. 512k or 1M isn't unusual for SCSI. Well, you're right. If the industry had switched to SCSI 2 or 3 years ago, we would be faced with SCSI drives as cheap as IDE drives are now, but as crappy too. So, the general advise ``Buy SCSI, and you're safe'' would no longer be true then. Hmm, thinking of it this way, i'm starting to become happy that IDE still exists. ;-) > > /sbin/dmesg usually tells me what ID is still available. > > Care to remind me how to get FreeBSD to recognize a SCSI device that > wasn't there when the kernel initialized? scsi -f /dev/rsd0.ctl -r This is a chicken-and-egg problem, since you need the control device of at least one successfully probed SCSI device. Using the ssc and su pseudo-devices, you could get away by creating the /dev/scsisuper mentioned in the scsi(8) manual. These drivers are not included by default (should they?). -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 15:20:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29807 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29761 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) id SAA00360; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:18:34 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199711082318.SAA00360@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: hardware In-Reply-To: <19971108225215.ZD56214@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "Nov 8, 97 10:52:15 pm" To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:18:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk J Wunsch said: > > This awfully looks like a much better success rate than IDE, where you > often have to live with the surprise that two (out of two possible) > disk drives of different vendors can't work together on a single bus. > I have literally NEVER had a problem with IDE. (Except cable problems.) However, I have been careful not to mix/match manufacturers. Again, I am not religiously pro or against SCSI or IDE. I have had problems with HP drives also. I have heard of problems running the latest Buslogic SCSI interfaces also (they don't work on FreeBSD, without a new driver.) It is all how you look at the troubles with the respective interfaces. -- John dyson@freebsd.org jdyson@nc.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 19:17:01 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09451 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:17:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (root@shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09446 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 19:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@lakewood.com) Received: from i4got.lakewood.com (ppp2.monmouth.com [205.164.220.34]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10087; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:12:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by i4got.lakewood.com id WAA22759 (8.8.5/IDA-1.6); Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:16:49 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Pechter Message-ID: <199711090316.WAA22759@i4got.lakewood.com> Subject: Re: Partitioning In-Reply-To: <199711080439.VAA25650@obie.softweyr.ml.org> from Wes Peters at "Nov 7, 97 09:39:31 pm" To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:16:48 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org Reply-to: pechter@lakewood.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Wes Peters writes: > Jay Nelson writes: > > I'm _really_ interested in knowing how you reduced an AIX file system > > on the fly without blowing your feet off. The "official" way to reduce > > an AIX file system is a restore from a mksysb. > > Nah, you can shrink the size of a live volume through SMIT. It's the > coolest feature in all of AIX-land. I imagine *this* was some wild ugly > code to get right. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com > Yeah, you can shrink 'em in 4.x... but in 3.2.5 you couldn't. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive Tinton Falls, NJ 07724 | 732-389-3592 pechter@lakewood.com | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. This msg brought to you by the letters PDP and the number 11. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 22:16:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17591 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:16:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user5380@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17586 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 9 Nov 1997 06:22:07 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:22:07 -0700 (MST) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI, about fonts on Xwindows In-Reply-To: <199711082040.PAA16703@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, John S. Dyson wrote: > I have been somewhat disappointed about the jaggedness of the default > fonts on Xwindows (XFree86.) In fact, I have seen a rough look on most X86 > Xservers. That KILLs the gimp. What would otherwise be a mighty fine image ends up looking amateur after the cheesy "Type 1" fonts are added. I would definitely like a copy of your fonts.scale. Then we could retire PhotoShop for good! Thanks, Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 22:35:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18283 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:35:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from srv.net (snake.srv.net [199.104.81.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18272 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 22:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmott@srv.net) Received: from darkstar.home (tc-if2-42.ida.net [208.141.171.99]) by srv.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA02096; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:34:56 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:34:22 -0700 (MST) From: Charles Mott X-Sender: cmott@darkstar.home To: Atipa cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: IDT processors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Atipa wrote: > > P.S. Have any FreeBSD users tried out the new IDT chip? > > What/Who is IDT? I heard about some So. CA startup company using the > SGS/Thompson Fab. Is that them? IDT (Integrated Device Technologies) makes alot of odds and ends chips. I used to use them for fast static RAM chips in custom board designs. I wouldn't count these guys out. They might be pretty good. Charles Mott [moved to -chat] From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 23:06:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19621 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:06:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19614 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@glue.umd.edu) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA25962; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:03:01 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: picnic.mat.net: chuckr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 01:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey X-Sender: chuckr@picnic.mat.net To: Charles Mott cc: Atipa , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: IDT processors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Charles Mott wrote: > On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Atipa wrote: > > > P.S. Have any FreeBSD users tried out the new IDT chip? > > > > What/Who is IDT? I heard about some So. CA startup company using the > > SGS/Thompson Fab. Is that them? > > IDT (Integrated Device Technologies) makes alot of odds and ends chips. I > used to use them for fast static RAM chips in custom board designs. I > wouldn't count these guys out. They might be pretty good. On top of that, they've been around for years, they're hardly new guys on the block. > > Charles Mott > > [moved to -chat] > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD (301) 220-2114 | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Nov 8 23:25:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20291 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:25:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20285 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:25:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27310; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 23:25:04 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199711090725.XAA27310@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: IDT processors? In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Atipa wrote: > What/Who is IDT? I heard about some So. CA startup company using the > SGS/Thompson Fab. Is that them? IDT is a company that makes various parts; they're up the street a bit from me, and were doing lots of MIPS stuff for a while. (I don't know if they still are.) Their x86 clone attracted a lot of attention because it is simple, yet manages to be fast. (Part of that is because they apparantly use the extra real-estate to put on lots of L1 cache.) As many may recall, I am not a fan of Intel right now, and assembled my new system to use as few Intel parts as possible. I've got a K6-200 in my system, and it works quite well, so far. As I said, it is not affected by this particular bug (although it does not execute the instruction correctly).