From owner-freebsd-sparc Sun Dec 14 07:29:15 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13655 for sparc-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:29:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13645 for freebsd-sparc; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:29:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:29:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199712141529.HAA13645@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-sparc Subject: test Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org check digest chekc archive check output From owner-freebsd-sparc Sun Dec 14 07:37:02 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14116 for sparc-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:37:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14108 for freebsd-sparc; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:36:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199712141536.HAA14108@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-sparc Subject: test agains Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-sparc Sun Dec 14 07:37:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14181 for sparc-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:37:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14173 for freebsd-sparc; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:37:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:37:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199712141537.HAA14173@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-sparc Subject: test again Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From owner-freebsd-sparc Sun Dec 14 18:44:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09784 for sparc-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kumao.lai.kyutech.ac.jp (kumao.lai.kyutech.ac.jp [131.206.96.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09766 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:44:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from takagi@lai.kyutech.ac.jp) Received: (from takagi@localhost) by kumao.lai.kyutech.ac.jp (8.8.8+2.7Wbeta7/3.5Wpl4) id LAA00735 for freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:44:32 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:44:32 +0900 (JST) From: Kazu TAKAGI Message-Id: <199712150244.LAA00735@kumao.lai.kyutech.ac.jp> To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org auth 21def673 subscribe freebsd-sparc takagi@lai.kyutech.ac.jp From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 02:34:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA16027 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from harebell.bri.st.com (harebell.bri.st.com [192.26.234.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA16020 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abc@bristol.st.com) Received: from moonshine.inmos.co.uk [138.198.160.81] by harebell.bri.st.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0xhXj0-0002vB-00; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:26:10 +0000 From: abc@bristol.st.com (Andy Cheese) Message-Id: <9712151035.ZM5547@bristol.st.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:35:58 +0000 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10apr95) To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org auth e1a9ef45 subscribe freebsd-sparc abc@bristol.st.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 13:18:45 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15483 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:18:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from glacier.wise.edt.ericsson.se (glacier-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [193.180.251.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15450 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:18:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from teicest@tss.tei.ericsson.se) Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se (mailgate.ericsson.se [130.100.128.2]) by glacier.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3/glacier-0.9) with ESMTP id WAA03937 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:18:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from tss.ericsson.se (tss.tei.ericsson.se [141.137.93.254]) by mailgate.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3/eri-0.9) with SMTP id VAA13012 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:32:45 +0100 (MET) Received: from tss.tei.ericsson.se (picchio) by tss.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15328; Mon, 15 Dec 97 22:07:47 +0100 Message-Id: <34959988.12CF9CBF@tss.tei.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:56:41 +0100 From: Cesare Tensi Reply-To: Cesare.Tensi@tss.tei.ericsson.se Organization: Ericsson S.p.A. (Italy) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Hello Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello world. Is there anybody out there? Cesare -- *************************************************** * Tensi Cesare * * Consulente Informatico - System Consultant * * Lan/System Manager at Ericsson Italy * * E-Mail: * * mailto://tensi@mclink.it (home) * * mailto://tensi@tss.ericsson.se (work) * * Home-Page: http://www.mclink.it/personal/MC8563 * *************************************************** From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 14:49:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23480 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:49:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23460 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:49:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA06491; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 06:49:08 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio To: Cesare.Tensi@tss.tei.ericsson.se cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hello In-Reply-To: <34959988.12CF9CBF@tss.tei.ericsson.se> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Cesare Tensi wrote: > Hello world. > > Is there anybody out there? Yep. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 15:17:48 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25949 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:17:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from osiris.staff.udg.mx (leonf@[148.202.3.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25940 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:17:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from leonf@osiris.staff.udg.mx) Received: (from leonf@localhost) by osiris.staff.udg.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10971 for freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:17:16 GMT From: "Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR" Message-Id: <9712151717.ZM10969@osiris> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:17:14 -0800 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Hi!!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Where can i find Sparc version???? Thanx From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 15:28:10 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26683 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:28:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26604 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:27:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id QAA00041; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:27:06 -0700 (MST) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199712152327.QAA00041@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Hello To: Cesare.Tensi@tss.tei.ericsson.se Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:27:05 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <34959988.12CF9CBF@tss.tei.ericsson.se> from "Cesare Tensi" at Dec 15, 97 09:56:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Hello world. > > Is there anybody out there? Me too! I'm personally interested in FreeBSD on the Fujitsu SPARClite architecture, for some interesting embedded work. ;^) I'm certainly willing to scale down from sun4c to this, but am not able (due to time constraints) to port FreeBSD to sun4c myself. (at least not this week. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 15:28:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26744 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26685 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id QAA00287; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:27:53 -0700 (MST) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199712152327.QAA00287@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Hi!!!! To: leonf@osiris.staff.udg.mx (Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:27:50 -0700 (MST) Cc: sparc@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <9712151717.ZM10969@osiris> from "Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR" at Dec 15, 97 05:17:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Where can i find Sparc version???? It would be a 4-dimensional URL, since it hasn't been done yet. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 15:30:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26973 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:30:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26915 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:30:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id XAA23043; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:29:51 GMT Message-ID: <19971215152951.49159@relay.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:29:51 -0800 From: "David E. O'Brien" To: "Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hi!!!! Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <9712151717.ZM10969@osiris> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: <9712151717.ZM10969@osiris>; from Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR on Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 05:17:14PM -0800 X-Warning: Mutt Bites! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Where can i find Sparc version???? Sorry, but it is now out yet. Actually it is just in its genious. -- -- David (obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 15:32:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27276 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:32:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com (dbaker@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.COM [206.109.4.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27246 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:32:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbaker@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com) Received: (from dbaker@localhost) by pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com (8.8.8/8.8.3) id RAA15136; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:32:17 -0600 (CST) From: Daniel Baker Message-Id: <199712152332.RAA15136@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com> Subject: Re: Hi!!!! In-Reply-To: <9712151717.ZM10969@osiris> from "Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR" at "Dec 15, 97 05:17:14 pm" To: leonf@osiris.staff.udg.mx (Leon Felipe Rodriguez J. -CENCAR) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:32:17 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Where can i find Sparc version???? Download the current source, port it to sparc, compile it, and put it on a FTP site. Then you'll be up and running. Pretty simple, eh? :) Also, please let us all know when you have it working. Daniel -- Daniel Baker -- Network Operations Administrator - NeoSoft, Inc. dbaker@neosoft.com dbaker@neo.net Phone: +1 713 968 5800 Fax: +1 713 968 5801 From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 16:10:35 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00674 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.netaccess.on.ca (root@netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00631 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:10:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@ControlQ.com) Received: from fatlady.controlq.com ([199.243.225.236]) by alpha.netaccess.on.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA07211 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:10:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:19:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Robert S. Sciuk" To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <199712152332.RAA15136@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmmm IMHO: I see that the thread so far consists of `How do I do the FTP install' or sentiments to that effect 8-). I think the cart is squarely before the horse here ... a fair number of people are going to have to contribute before this can happen. I, myself have an IPX box that's just screaming for an uplift from SunOS 4.x -- and what better than FreeBSD?? I am certainly willing to test a reasonably stable Beta or even Alpha release for what that's worth, or perhaps port some intel code to ensure byte alignment etc is ok. Is there an authoritative voice here to indicate the current state of the project, and how we (the grateful abusers), can contribute to make this happen?? Is there a project map?? Running Kernel to start with?? I understand that OpenBSD (at least) already runs on SPARC (and others) and could serve as a base for simple device drivers, and boot code ... but I'm sure I cover known territory ... How can we help to make a SPARC equivalent to the excellent FreeBSD intel project??????? What is the current art? Cheers, Rob. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Robert S. Sciuk 1032 Howard Rd. Ph:905 632-2466 Control-Q Research Burlington, Ont. Canada Fx:905 632-7417 rob@ControlQ.com L7R 3X5 http://www.ControlQ.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 16:47:03 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04244 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:47:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fantasy.icr.com.au (fantasy.icr.com.au [203.17.49.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04171 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:46:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by fantasy.icr.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03534; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:45:46 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fantasy.icr.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma003532; Tue Dec 16 10:45:18 1997 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:45:18 +1000 (EST) From: Dale Walker To: "Robert S. Sciuk" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Robert S. Sciuk wrote: >---snipped---- > I, myself have an IPX box that's just screaming for an uplift from SunOS > 4.x -- and what better than FreeBSD?? I am certainly willing to test a > reasonably stable Beta or even Alpha release for what that's worth, or > perhaps port some intel code to ensure byte alignment etc is ok. I have a couple of SS1's (sun4c) rearing to go as well ... I can also provide some ftp space to the project if required... > Is there an authoritative voice here to indicate the current state of the > project, Is there a core member guiding this effort?? I hope so... I'm sure pretty soon that they will make an announcement - please.... >and how we (the grateful abusers), can contribute to make this > happen?? Is there a project map?? Running Kernel to start with?? I > understand that OpenBSD (at least) already runs on SPARC (and others) and > could serve as a base for simple device drivers, and boot code ... but I'm > sure I cover known territory ... > NetBSD also, although I understand the OpenBSD is more stable.....but I digress... I think that due to the infantsy of the project, we should actually find out who can help , what can be provide (ie FAQ's, current kernel src tree, etc, etc) > How can we help to make a SPARC equivalent to the excellent FreeBSD intel > project??????? What is the current art? > What resources do we need to set up: suggestions.... 1. FAQ on FreeBSD-sparc 2. Mailing list freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org ---DONE 3. FTP'ible source tree 4. Web Pages?? 5. GNATS will this be developed hand in hand with i386 FreeBSD, or will it be a separate entity (at least until out of alpha)?? Cheers Dale -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dale Walker dale@icr.com.au Manager/Sysadmin - ICRnet - Internet Provision and Services Independent Computer Retailers (ICR) http://www.icr.com.au Ph:+61.7.4636.4625 Fax:+61.7.4636.3513 helpdesk@icr.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A Flashlight is a case for holding dead batteries -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 17:30:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07100 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:30:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07089 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:30:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id BAA23397; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:29:45 GMT Message-ID: <19971215172944.51352@relay.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:29:44 -0800 From: "David E. O'Brien" To: Dale Walker Cc: "Robert S. Sciuk" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: ; from Dale Walker on Tue, Dec 16, 1997 at 10:45:18AM +1000 X-Warning: Mutt Bites! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Is there an authoritative voice here to indicate the current state of > > the project, > Is there a core member guiding this effort?? I hope so... I'm sure pretty > soon that they will make an announcement - please.... At this point in time, there are no core members involved in this (that I know of). I will let the "main man" announce himself. > > Running Kernel to start with?? Nope. > what can be provide (ie FAQ's, current kernel src tree, etc, etc) ..snip.. > will this be developed hand in hand with i386 FreeBSD, or will it be a > separate entity (at least until out of alpha)?? Source tree organization and distribution has yet to be figured out. > What resources do we need to set up: suggestions.... > 1. FAQ on FreeBSD-sparc Good idea. So what are the frequently asked questions? (email me and I can start that list). > 3. FTP'ible source tree Come now. We can do better than FTP. :-) We, FreeBSD, are the inventors of CVSup. > 4. Web Pages?? I guess we could hang them off of www.freebsd.org. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) James says: "Grad school sucks." From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 17:47:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08804 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:47:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fantasy.icr.com.au (fantasy.icr.com.au [203.17.49.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08757 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:47:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by fantasy.icr.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03988; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:46:47 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fantasy.icr.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma003986; Tue Dec 16 11:46:22 1997 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:46:22 +1000 (EST) From: Dale Walker To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <19971215172944.51352@relay.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, David E. O'Brien wrote: > > > What resources do we need to set up: suggestions.... > > 1. FAQ on FreeBSD-sparc > > Good idea. So what are the frequently asked questions? > (email me and I can start that list). > for the moment it'll have to probably be an archive of the list... cause, now that you ask... I just acn't think of any.. > > 3. FTP'ible source tree > > Come now. We can do better than FTP. :-) We, FreeBSD, are the inventors > of CVSup. agree, cvsup is the go... Suggestion for files: README.cvsup <-- with details how to use cvsup to maintain a copy of current source..... README.TODO <-- {echo "15 Dec, 1997 - Build a Kernel" >> README.TODO;} ./kernel/freebsd.GENERIC <-- Dir with kernels for netboot of sun sparc ./tools/boot.sun4c <-- generic sun boot loader (available from a number of sources) Do we have a site for it??? Offer stands for space if someone will just let me know what is required (ie. dir structure, etc) > > 4. Web Pages?? > > I guess we could hang them off of www.freebsd.org. > too easy... > -- > -- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > James says: "Grad school sucks." > > Cheers, Dale -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dale Walker dale@icr.com.au Manager/Sysadmin - ICRnet - Internet Provision and Services Independent Computer Retailers (ICR) http://www.icr.com.au Ph:+61.7.4636.4625 Fax:+61.7.4636.3513 helpdesk@icr.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A Flashlight is a case for holding dead batteries -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 17:57:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09553 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09546 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:57:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06915; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:57:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:57:00 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: Dale Walker , "Robert S. Sciuk" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <19971215172944.51352@relay.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, David E. O'Brien wrote: > At this point in time, there are no core members involved in this (that I > know of). I will let the "main man" announce himself. I'm working on a message right now. It'll be done within an hour hopefully. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 18:12:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10619 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10460 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id CAA23568; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 02:10:49 GMT Message-ID: <19971215181048.32249@relay.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:10:48 -0800 From: "David E. O'Brien" To: Dale Walker Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <19971215172944.51352@relay.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: ; from Dale Walker on Tue, Dec 16, 1997 at 11:46:22AM +1000 X-Warning: Mutt Bites! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > for the moment it'll have to probably be an archive of the list... cause, > now that you ask... I just acn't think of any.. 1. What is the status of the FreeBSD-sparc project? 2. How did it get started 4. How far along is the port? 8. Is there a kernel at this point? 16. How can I get access to the source? 32. Will FreeBSD-sparc be integrated with existing FreeBSD code, or exist as a seperate project? 64. Web/online resources? > > > 4. Web Pages?? > > > > I guess we could hang them off of www.freebsd.org. > > too easy... One of FreeBSD streights is it is centrally distributed. You want to know something about freebd, you look to ftp.freebsd.org, www.freebsd.org, cvsup.freebsd.org. I really don't think we want to look like we are all over the place like in Linuxville. I just don't care for that level of anarchy. I'm not trying to quell your level of enthusiasm, but what is wrong with using www.freebsd.org? -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 18:21:08 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11314 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:21:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fantasy.icr.com.au (fantasy.icr.com.au [203.17.49.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11281 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:20:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by fantasy.icr.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04314; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:20:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fantasy.icr.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma004312; Tue Dec 16 12:20:14 1997 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:20:14 +1000 (EST) From: Dale Walker To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <19971215181048.32249@relay.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, David E. O'Brien wrote: > > for the moment it'll have to probably be an archive of the list... cause, > > now that you ask... I just acn't think of any.. > > 1. What is the status of the FreeBSD-sparc project? > 2. How did it get started > 4. How far along is the port? > 8. Is there a kernel at this point? > 16. How can I get access to the source? > 32. Will FreeBSD-sparc be integrated with existing FreeBSD code, or > exist as a seperate project? > 64. Web/online resources? > > > > > > 4. Web Pages?? > > > > > > I guess we could hang them off of www.freebsd.org. > > > > too easy... > > One of FreeBSD streights is it is centrally distributed. You want to > know something about freebd, you look to ftp.freebsd.org, > www.freebsd.org, cvsup.freebsd.org. I really don't think we want to look > like we are all over the place like in Linuxville. I just don't care for > that level of anarchy. > > I'm not trying to quell your level of enthusiasm, but what is wrong with > using www.freebsd.org? > > -- > -- David (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > > absolutely nothing is wrong with it...I agree fully with your statement, It deserves a place in the FAQ as well (no, I'm not being sarcastic) to demonstrate the integration with the "core" release code (currently i386). I'm working from home today, and fending off a over-happy puppy dog and a talking refridgerator, and no-aircon. My train of thought at the time I wrote "too easy.." was...." Of course, why didn't i think of that - it's obvious.." unfortunately, my facial expressions and the image of beating me head on the desk doesn't send to well over email.. Cheers, Dale -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dale Walker dale@icr.com.au Manager/Sysadmin - ICRnet - Internet Provision and Services Independent Computer Retailers (ICR) http://www.icr.com.au Ph:+61.7.4636.4625 Fax:+61.7.4636.3513 helpdesk@icr.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A Flashlight is a case for holding dead batteries -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 18:41:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13075 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sag.space.lockheed.com (sag.space.lockheed.com [192.68.162.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13063 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:41:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@sag.space.lockheed.com) Received: from localhost by sag.space.lockheed.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/21Nov95-0423PM) id AA29396; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:37:47 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:37:47 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Handy To: Dale Walker Cc: "David E. O'Brien" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Files: The truth is out there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Good idea. So what are the frequently asked questions? >> (email me and I can start that list). > >for the moment it'll have to probably be an archive of the list... cause, >now that you ask... I just acn't think of any.. 1. "I've got this great [IPX|IPC|SS2|your old dead slow Sun here] that I want to put FreeBSD on. What's supported?" Answer: The first machines out of the gate are going to be the sorta-high-end Ultrasparcs which are expected to drop in price to be competetive with the x86 architecture within the next year. Non-ultra platforms will follow later, based most likely on popularity and the assistance of the interested user base. (Gussied up with the correct lingo, of course, by someone who talks the talk.. :-) Heh...where do I send-pr this sucker? :-) Happy trails, Brian From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 18:49:23 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13696 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fantasy.icr.com.au (fantasy.icr.com.au [203.17.49.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13686 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:49:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by fantasy.icr.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04434; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:48:17 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fantasy.icr.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma004432; Tue Dec 16 12:48:08 1997 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:48:08 +1000 (EST) From: Dale Walker To: Brian Handy cc: "David E. O'Brien" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Brian Handy wrote: > >> Good idea. So what are the frequently asked questions? > >> (email me and I can start that list). > >for the moment it'll have to probably be an archive of the list... cause, > >now that you ask... I just acn't think of any.. > > > 1. "I've got this great [IPX|IPC|SS2|your old dead slow Sun here] that > I want to put FreeBSD on. What's supported?" > > Answer: The first machines out of the gate are going to be the > sorta-high-end Ultrasparcs which are expected to drop in price to be > competetive with the x86 architecture within the next year. Non-ultra > platforms will follow later, based most likely on popularity and the > assistance of the interested user base. > > (Gussied up with the correct lingo, of course, by someone who talks the > talk.. :-) > > Heh...where do I send-pr this sucker? :-) > > Happy trails, > Brian > I'll post a mini-FAQ within the next 8 hrs or so, to get the ball rolling. Cheers, Dale -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dale Walker dale@icr.com.au Manager/Sysadmin - ICRnet - Internet Provision and Services Independent Computer Retailers (ICR) http://www.icr.com.au Ph:+61.7.4636.4625 Fax:+61.7.4636.3513 helpdesk@icr.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A Flashlight is a case for holding dead batteries -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 18:54:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14135 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14118 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07015; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:54:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:54:19 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio Reply-To: Jason Evans To: "Robert S. Sciuk" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: State of the SPARC port (Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Robert S. Sciuk wrote: > Is there an authoritative voice here to indicate the current state of the > project, and how we (the grateful abusers), can contribute to make this > happen?? Is there a project map?? Running Kernel to start with?? I > understand that OpenBSD (at least) already runs on SPARC (and others) and > could serve as a base for simple device drivers, and boot code ... but I'm > sure I cover known territory ... > How can we help to make a SPARC equivalent to the excellent FreeBSD intel > project??????? What is the current art? There are a bunch of questions here. I'll try to answer them well, and once. As people re-ask these questions, please refer them to this email. The SPARC port is in its infancy. How infant? No code has been written yet (though that will change this week). Here's a short history of what led up to this porting effort. Sun Microelectronics (SME) is the part of Sun that makes microprocessors. Up to now, SMCC (the part of Sun that makes workstations) has been the overwhelmingly primary customer of SME. SME naturally wants to expand its sales, and to do that, they need to sell CPUs to people outside of Sun. FreeBSD is perceived as being a way of accomplishing this. To understand why Sun could fund a FreeBSD port, which would seem to conflict with Sun's Solaris offerings, you need to realize that Sun is broken up into separate business units that often _compete_ with each other. The Solaris people at Sun may not like having a FreeBSD port to compete with, but their power to prevent it is somewhat diminished due to the business model. Of course, if the FreeBSD port were a major threat, SMI (the main Sun umbrella company) would put a stop to it. However, this is unlikely, since FreeBSD mostly meets the needs of a different market sector than Solaris. Solaris does wonderful things on big MP servers. FreeBSD is fast and lean for small servers. It is also useful for certain types of embedded applications, which is actually the main reason SME is interested in seeing a port of FreeBSD to SPARC. A while back, SME approached FreeBSD core and offered monetary compensation of some nature (I don't know the details) in exchange for an official UltraSPARC port. FreeBSD core turned down this offer. Once again, I don't know details, but one of the main statements made (actually somewhat inferred) by Jordan Hubbard was that SME's offer was not of major interest since to be of long term use to FreeBSD, such a proposal would need to include support for a number of years from someone internal to Sun. Jordan's statement makes a great deal of sense. I've traced down documentation in preparation for this port that people external to Sun would have had a difficult, perhaps impossible time procuring. Without such access, it is very difficult to make continual progress on such a project. Now it's time to mingle some of my background into this narrative. I started working at SME about 3 months ago. During my first week I caught wind of the negotiations SME was making with FreeBSD core. I expressed extreme interest in working on the project. Through a bit of persistence (and the failure of the proposal made by SME) I was given permission to begin work on the port. My other duties at SME include finding information for software vendors who are porting their OSes/RTOSes to the UltraSPARC. This puts me in a good position to gather hardware information pertinent to the FreeBSD port. So here's the catch. I have access to documentation, a machine to develop on, but very little low level OS or hardware experience. I learn quickly, but I've got a lot to learn. Already several people have been able to help me grasp concepts that are key to porting FreeBSD, but there is much, much more to learn. So, I can use the following types of help (not exclusively, of course): 1) Answer my questions about kernel and hardware details. For example, I have documentation on the MMU, but have never actually dealt with one, so John Dyson has volunteered to get me through the rough spots having to do with memory management, as well as discussing design issues due to the difference in nature between PCs and Suns. 2) Actually write code. I'll get to some important details about this later on in this email. 3) Various administrative things, such as a web page, bug tracking, FAQ, etc. 4) Whatever you can do to help. Following is a preliminary list of questions and answers. I've been asked several of these questions (multiple times) already. ============================================================================= Q) Can I run the port on machine XXX? Well, right now the answer is, without a doubt, no. Coding is just on the verge of beginning. In the longer term though, you will probably have better luck running the port on UltraSPARCs, unless I get lots of help for the other processors. Ian Logan _really_ wants to see this run on 4m machines, and will likely aid in coding. If there are enough others, or if Ian works hard enough, the port will include support for the older machines. Such efforts are not my primary objective, but I'm totally supportive of any progress made. ============================================================================= Q) Why not start from NetBSD/OpenBSD? There are multiple answers to this: 1) SME specifically wants a FreeBSD port because that's what potential customers have been clammoring for. 2) I'm particularly attached to FreeBSD, but don't like supporting Intel (both because of their business practices and because of the quality of their products). ============================================================================= Q) Who is in charge of the port? Well, I (Jason Evans, jasone@canonware.com) initiated the port. This doesn't exactly make me in charge, but you can bet that I'll constantly have my hands dirty working on it. ============================================================================= Q) What platforms are being targeted for the port? SME is particularly interested in having the port work on the UltraSPARC. That leaves out the 4m, 4c, etc. (I haven't been around for a terribly long time, so I don't even have it straight in my mind what all there is). My work is going to concentrate on the UltraSPARC, which is a 64 bit processor. ============================================================================= Q) What development environment is being used? I'm hoping to use gcc under Solaris and/or FreeBSD. The V9 version of gcc should be ready (from Cygnus) within the next week. This is going to be a source of initial problems, since I'll be the first one to use the compiler and will no doubt run into bugs. If the problems are too extreme I may back off and try to get some real work done using the standard gcc while pounding on the V9 port so that Cygnus has some feedback. ============================================================================= Q) How can I contribute code (logistics)? Well, here's the plan. I'm hoping to maintain a source tree that tracks -current at the same time as allowing people to commit changes. This is going to be tricky since CVSup hasn't ever been used exacltly like this before. The main problem is keeping updates from freebsd.org from clobbering local modifications (version tags need to be dealt with carefully). I've gotten some positive feedback from people on whether this can be done, although clearly the details are going to need hashed out. I could really use help in two respects here: 1) If someone is willing to solve the technical challenges outlined above, I'd be thrilled. 2) I only have a (dedicated) 28.8 modem connection to the net. If anyone has a location with more bandwidth they're willing to let us use, that would be wonderful. ============================================================================= Q) When will the code be merged into -current? Although there may be small changes commited to -current to facilitate the port, chances are that we won't merge until after 3.0 has been released. In preparation for the 3.0 release sometime next spring, we need to be careful not to introduce code that could cause instability in the release version. Hopefully by that time there will be a lot of work done that can be merged. ============================================================================= Q) Will your (Sun's) work be released to the FreeBSD community? Absolutely, yes, and on an ongoing basis. Have no fear of my work being yanked. ============================================================================= Q) What's the general plan of attack? Briefly, the first challenge is to get the kernel to build using a cross-platform development environment. Next we need a working console driver and a completely stripped down kernel to get the kernel to load and initialize itself. There are a number of areas that are going to take a lot of work to make even this much happen. There is talk of a source tree restructuring, but my feeling is that we should put this off as long as possible, so that when we do it, we have a good idea of what we're trytng to achieve. The memory subsystem will need to be ripped to shreds and put back together. There is dicussion of how to make bus interfaces abstracted in the kernel. Assumptions about the size of int will need fixed. There are many, many things to do. Exactly what order they need to be done in isn't completely clear yet, but we'll manage somehow. ============================================================================= Q) What hardware do I need to be able to help? Pretty much anything can be of use, depending on your goals. For my purposes, the following works well. I'm using a machine based on the UltraAX motherboard. It has a 167 MHz processor, PCI bus, EIDE controller, ethernet adapter, and serial ports on board. It has 8 (proprietary) SIMM slots, an memory is 4-way interleaved, so SIMMs are added in sets of 4 (I have 4 8MB SIMMS). It is a bit spendy, but there is a newer version of the motherboard based on the (266 or 300 MHz) UltraSPARC IIi processor currently in beta. This processor has a number of things built in (MMU?, PCI chipset?), which makes the cost quite a bit lower. This board also has SCSI instead of EIDE built in, so it will probably be a better choice if any of you are thinking of buying a board. ============================================================================= Q) Where can I purchase a machine suitable for the current porting efforts? See . I successfully ordered machines from here (for Sun). They operate a bit differently than PC component vendors, in that you establish a contact, and then they quote you a price, etc., etc.. ============================================================================= Q) When will the port be done? When is a software project ever "done"? Seriously though, this is a huge project. I hope to have a minimal booting kernel a few months from now. Past that I don't know what kind of projections to make. It will really depend on how much help I get, and what kind of road blocks are encountered. ============================================================================= Q) Why are you working on this when you lack so much background? Because I'm interested in it, and am a major proponent of free software. I can't imagine a job more fulfilling than doing my part to make FreeBSD a technologically superior OS (even more so than now). And as an employee of SME, I can justify this as a project to sell more processors. =) ============================================================================= Q) Where can I get up to date information about the state of the port? Subscribe to the freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org mailing list. To do so, send a message to majordomo@freebsd.org with only the text subscribe freebsd-sparc in the message body. You will receive an email message asking for confirmation. Send the "auth" line by itself in the message body to majordomo@freebsd.org (not freebsd-sparc!). (Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes here. =) ) ============================================================================= Feel free to ask for further information, or clarification of anything in this email message. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 19:01:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14751 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:01:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14741 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:01:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from cyrus.watson.org (cyrus.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.4]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA09282; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:59:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:00:29 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson Reply-To: Robert Watson To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <19971215181048.32249@relay.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, David E. O'Brien wrote: > 1. What is the status of the FreeBSD-sparc project? > 2. How did it get started > 4. How far along is the port? > 8. Is there a kernel at this point? > 16. How can I get access to the source? > 32. Will FreeBSD-sparc be integrated with existing FreeBSD code, or > exist as a seperate project? > 64. Web/online resources? Also, "How does the FreeBSD Sparc port relate to other free Sparc UNIX-like platforms (OpenBSD, NetBSD, Linux...)?" Or some formulation thereof. Possibly also, "What Sun hardware platforms are targetted for this port (sun4, sun4m, etc)?" Robert N Watson Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 19:14:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15695 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crb.mnsinc.com [206.239.213.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15685 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:14:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05110; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:18:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: "David E. O'Brien" cc: Dale Walker , "Robert S. Sciuk" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <19971215172944.51352@relay.nuxi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, David E. O'Brien wrote: >> > Is there an authoritative voice here to indicate the current state of >> > the project, > >> Is there a core member guiding this effort?? I hope so... I'm sure pretty >> soon that they will make an announcement - please.... > >At this point in time, there are no core members involved in this (that I >know of). I will let the "main man" announce himself. > > >> > Running Kernel to start with?? > >Nope. > > >> what can be provide (ie FAQ's, current kernel src tree, etc, etc) >..snip.. >> will this be developed hand in hand with i386 FreeBSD, or will it be a >> separate entity (at least until out of alpha)?? > >Source tree organization and distribution has yet to be figured out. > > >> What resources do we need to set up: suggestions.... >> 1. FAQ on FreeBSD-sparc > >Good idea. So what are the frequently asked questions? >(email me and I can start that list). > >> 3. FTP'ible source tree > >Come now. We can do better than FTP. :-) We, FreeBSD, are the inventors >of CVSup. > >> 4. Web Pages?? > >I guess we could hang them off of www.freebsd.org. > >-- >-- David (obrien@NUXI.com -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) > James says: "Grad school sucks." I would suggest that as a first step we should compile a list of documents pointers and URLs to information on SUN hardware, do they use open firmware, what does the prom include, where would I go to find out about the sparc architecture and the initial processor target that this port is using. Where would one go to get information on the board? etc.. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 19:19:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16148 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.nuxi.com (nuxi.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16130 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:19:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from obrien@NUXI.com) Received: (from obrien@localhost) by relay.nuxi.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id DAA24149; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:16:31 GMT Message-ID: <19971215191631.53874@relay.nuxi.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:16:31 -0800 From: "David E. O'Brien" To: "Christopher R. Bowman" Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! Reply-To: obrien@NUXI.com References: <19971215172944.51352@relay.nuxi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 In-Reply-To: ; from Christopher R. Bowman on Mon, Dec 15, 1997 at 10:18:07PM -0500 X-Warning: Mutt Bites! X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE Organization: The NUXI *BSD group X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 4D 3E E9 11 39 5F A3 90 76 5D 69 58 D9 98 7A X-Pgp-Keyid: 34F9F9D5 Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I would suggest that as a first step we should compile a list of documents > pointers and URLs to information on SUN hardware Good suggestion. > do they use open firmware, what does the prom include, OpenBoot is the bootloader on Sun workstations. There are some newer Sparcs on a card, that I have no idea about. Sun has published a lot of documentation on it. OpenBoot is roughly Forth and FWIK quite programmable. -- -- David (obrien@NUXI.ucdavis.edu -or- obrien@FreeBSD.org) From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 19:29:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16853 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:29:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com (dbaker@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.COM [206.109.4.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16842 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbaker@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com) Received: (from dbaker@localhost) by pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com (8.8.8/8.8.3) id VAA20234; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:28:43 -0600 (CST) From: Daniel Baker Message-Id: <199712160328.VAA20234@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com> Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: from Brian Handy at "Dec 15, 97 06:37:47 pm" To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian Handy) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:28:43 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >> Good idea. So what are the frequently asked questions? > >> (email me and I can start that list). > > > >for the moment it'll have to probably be an archive of the list... cause, > >now that you ask... I just acn't think of any.. > > > 1. "I've got this great [IPX|IPC|SS2|your old dead slow Sun here] that > I want to put FreeBSD on. What's supported?" > > > Answer: The first machines out of the gate are going to be the > sorta-high-end Ultrasparcs which are expected to drop in price to be > competetive with the x86 architecture within the next year. Non-ultra > platforms will follow later, based most likely on popularity and the > assistance of the interested user base. I think the majority of users that will run FreeBSD on their sparc will _not_ be the users with the higher end boxes, but more likely the old kludges everyone has lying around doing nothing. I think IPX's, SS2s, SS5s, etc should be the FIRST supported. Daniel -- Daniel Baker -- Network Operations Administrator - NeoSoft, Inc. dbaker@neosoft.com dbaker@neo.net Phone: +1 713 968 5800 Fax: +1 713 968 5801 From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 20:12:16 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19322 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:12:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19218 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:10:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07230; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:10:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:10:38 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio To: Daniel Baker cc: Brian Handy , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: <199712160328.VAA20234@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Daniel Baker wrote: > I think the majority of users that will run FreeBSD on their sparc > will _not_ be the users with the higher end boxes, but more likely the > old kludges everyone has lying around doing nothing. I think IPX's, > SS2s, SS5s, etc should be the FIRST supported. Like I said, I think supporting these older machines is great, but that isn't where my initial effort will be focused. I expect to get more help from people on the older machines, so possibly support will even be good from an early stage, as compared to UltraSPARC support. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 20:43:25 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21254 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:43:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21248 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:43:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xhoqg-0004YB-00; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:43:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3496086B.C932AF23@xmission.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:49:47 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Baker CC: Brian Handy , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! References: <199712160328.VAA20234@pluto.ops.NeoSoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel Baker wrote: > > 1. "I've got this great [IPX|IPC|SS2|your old dead slow Sun here] that > > I want to put FreeBSD on. What's supported?" > > > > > > Answer: The first machines out of the gate are going to be the > > sorta-high-end Ultrasparcs which are expected to drop in price to be > > competetive with the x86 architecture within the next year. Non-ultra > > platforms will follow later, based most likely on popularity and the > > assistance of the interested user base. > > I think the majority of users that will run FreeBSD on their sparc > will _not_ be the users with the higher end boxes, but more likely the > old kludges everyone has lying around doing nothing. I think IPX's, > SS2s, SS5s, etc should be the FIRST supported. Agreed. As someone pointed out before, there is going to be an education curve for those who are interested in this as well. Let me be the first to state here that if you want to be involved in this project, you're going to have to learn a little about the various Sun architecture families, and which of them have been cloned. What Daniel was trying to point out above is that the most common architectures amongst the user base are going to be sun4c and sun4m. sun4c = SS 1, 1+, 2, IPC, IPX, SLC, and ELC. sun4m = SPARC Classic, SS LX, 4, 5, 10, & 20. In general, models of a particular architecture have similar system capabilities with different models of SPARC cpu. Since OpenBSD has support for these architectures, getting FreeBSD to run on them (given a functioning SPARC kernel) shouldn't be a mystery, just a bit of hard work. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 20:44:12 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21345 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:44:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phibeta.the-reeds.com (rjr@phibeta.the-reeds.com [208.207.21.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21337 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rjr@the-reeds.com) Received: from localhost by phibeta.the-reeds.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06089; Mon, 15 Dec 97 23:41:52 EST Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:41:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Reginald J. Reed" To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Another arch question... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I see the UltraAX board mentioned, but what about the Ultra's with the Sbus? I've got an Ultra I Creator at work that I'd love to eventually run FreeBSD on. Any chance of this? -- Reginald Reed Cisco Systems Engineering Eta Sigma Chapter - Raleigh, NC InterWorks Business Unit Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc. Research Triangle Park, NC Home: rjr@The-Reeds.Com Work: reginald@cisco.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 20:51:34 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21853 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:51:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fantasy.icr.com.au (fantasy.icr.com.au [203.17.49.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21709 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:48:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dale@fantasy.icr.com.au) Received: (from dale@localhost) by fantasy.icr.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05326 for freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:47:58 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dale) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:47:58 +1000 (EST) From: Dale Walker Message-Id: <199712160447.OAA05326@fantasy.icr.com.au> To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting] Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ============================================================================= FreeBSD-sparc FAQ [ frequent Posting ] Latest copy: Dec 16, 1997 EST ============================================================================= Legalese: The following article contains the answers to some Frequently Asked Questions often seen in the freebsd-sparc mailing list. Please don't ask these questions again, they've been answered plenty of times already - and please don't flame someone just because they may not have read this particular posting. Thank you. All information here has been contributed with good intentions, but none of it is guaranteed either by the contributors or myself to be accurate. The users of this information take all responsibility for any damage that may occur. ============================================================================= Contents: The following questions are answered: Q.1.) What is the Status of the FreeBSD-sparc project Q.2.) Can I run the port on machine XXX? Q.3.) Why not start from NetBSD/OpenBSD? Q.4.) Who is in charge of the port? Q.5.) What platforms are being targeted for the port? Q.6.) What development environment is being used? Q.7.) How can I contribute code (logistics)? Q.8.) When will the code be merged into -current? Q.9.) Will your (Sun's) work be released to the FreeBSD community? Q.10.) What's the general plan of attack? Q.11.) What hardware do I need to be able to help? Q.12.) Where can I purchase a machine suitable for the current porting Q.13.) When will the port be done? Q.14.) Why are you working on this when you lack so much background? Q.15.) Where can I get up to date information about the state of the port? Q.16.) What is the state of the FAQ? ============================================================================= Q.1.) What is the Status of the FreeBSD-sparc project The SPARC port is in its infancy. How infant? No code has been written yet (though that will change this week). Here's a short history of what led up to this porting effort. Sun Microelectronics (SME) is the part of Sun that makes microprocessors. Up to now, SMCC (the part of Sun that makes workstations) has been the overwhelmingly primary customer of SME. SME naturally wants to expand its sales, and to do that, they need to sell CPUs to people outside of Sun. FreeBSD is perceived as being a way of accomplishing this. To understand why Sun could fund a FreeBSD port, which would seem to conflict with Sun's Solaris offerings, you need to realize that Sun is broken up into separate business units that often _compete_ with each other. The Solaris people at Sun may not like having a FreeBSD port to compete with, but their power to prevent it is somewhat diminished due to the business model. Of course, if the FreeBSD port were a major threat, SMI (the main Sun umbrella company) would put a stop to it. However, this is unlikely, since FreeBSD mostly meets the needs of a different market sector than Solaris. Solaris does wonderful things on big MP servers. FreeBSD is fast and lean for small servers. It is also useful for certain types of embedded applications, which is actually the main reason SME is interested in seeing a port of FreeBSD to SPARC. A while back, SME approached FreeBSD core and offered monetary compensation of some nature (I don't know the details) in exchange for an official UltraSPARC port. FreeBSD core turned down this offer. Once again, I don't know details, but one of the main statements made (actually somewhat inferred) by Jordan Hubbard was that SME's offer was not of major interest since to be of long term use to FreeBSD, such a proposal would need to include support for a number of years from someone internal to Sun. Jordan's statement makes a great deal of sense. I've traced down documentation in preparation for this port that people external to Sun would have had a difficult, perhaps impossible time procuring. Without such access, it is very difficult to make continual progress on such a project. Now it's time to mingle some of my background into this narrative. I started working at SME about 3 months ago. During my first week I caught wind of the negotiations SME was making with FreeBSD core. I expressed extreme interest in working on the project. Through a bit of persistence (and the failure of the proposal made by SME) I was given permission to begin work on the port. My other duties at SME include finding information for software vendors who are porting their OSes/RTOSes to the UltraSPARC. This puts me in a good position to gather hardware information pertinent to the FreeBSD port. So here's the catch. I have access to documentation, a machine to develop on, but very little low level OS or hardware experience. I learn quickly, but I've got a lot to learn. Already several people have been able to help me grasp concepts that are key to porting FreeBSD, but there is much, much more to learn. So, I can use the following types of help (not exclusively, of course): 1) Answer my questions about kernel and hardware details. For example, I have documentation on the MMU, but have never actually dealt with one, so John Dyson has volunteered to get me through the rough spots having to do with memory management, as well as discussing design issues due to the difference in nature between PCs and Suns. 2) Actually write code. I'll get to some important details about this later on in this email. 3) Various administrative things, such as a web page, bug tracking, FAQ, etc. 4) Whatever you can do to help. Following is a preliminary list of questions and answers. I've been asked several of these questions (multiple times) already. ============================================================================= Q.2.) Can I run the port on machine XXX? Well, right now the answer is, without a doubt, no. Coding is just on the verge of beginning. In the longer term though, you will probably have better luck running the port on UltraSPARCs, unless I get lots of help for the other processors. Ian Logan _really_ wants to see this run on 4m machines, and will likely aid in coding. If there are enough others, or if Ian works hard enough, the port will include support for the older machines. Such efforts are not my primary objective, but I'm totally supportive of any progress made. ============================================================================= Q.3.) Why not start from NetBSD/OpenBSD? There are multiple answers to this: 1) SME specifically wants a FreeBSD port because that's what potential customers have been clamoring for. 2) I'm particularly attached to FreeBSD, but don't like supporting Intel (both because of their business practices and because of the quality of their products). ============================================================================= Q.4.) Who is in charge of the port? Well, I (Jason Evans, jasone@canonware.com) initiated the port. This doesn't exactly make me in charge, but you can bet that I'll constantly have my hands dirty working on it. ============================================================================= Q.5.) What platforms are being targeted for the port? SME is particularly interested in having the port work on the UltraSPARC. That leaves out the 4m, 4c, etc. (I haven't been around for a terribly long time, so I don't even have it straight in my mind what all there is). My work is going to concentrate on the UltraSPARC, which is a 64 bit processor. ============================================================================= Q.6.) What development environment is being used? I'm hoping to use gcc under Solaris and/or FreeBSD. The V9 version of gcc should be ready (from Cygnus) within the next week. This is going to be a source of initial problems, since I'll be the first one to use the compiler and will no doubt run into bugs. If the problems are too extreme I may back off and try to get some real work done using the standard gcc while pounding on the V9 port so that Cygnus has some feedback. ============================================================================= Q.7.) How can I contribute code (logistics)? Well, here's the plan. I'm hoping to maintain a source tree that tracks -current at the same time as allowing people to commit changes. This is going to be tricky since CVSup hasn't ever been used exactly like this before. The main problem is keeping updates from freebsd.org from clobbering local modifications (version tags need to be dealt with carefully). I've gotten some positive feedback from people on whether this can be done, although clearly the details are going to need hashed out. I could really use help in two respects here: 1) If someone is willing to solve the technical challenges outlined above, I'd be thrilled. 2) I only have a (dedicated) 28.8 modem connection to the net. If anyone has a location with more bandwidth they're willing to let us use, that would be wonderful. ============================================================================= Q.8.) When will the code be merged into -current? Although there may be small changes committed to -current to facilitate the port, chances are that we won't merge until after 3.0 has been released. In preparation for the 3.0 release sometime next spring, we need to be careful not to introduce code that could cause instability in the release version. Hopefully by that time there will be a lot of work done that can be merged. ============================================================================= Q.9.) Will your (Sun's) work be released to the FreeBSD community? Absolutely, yes, and on an ongoing basis. Have no fear of my work being yanked. ============================================================================= Q.10.) What's the general plan of attack? Briefly, the first challenge is to get the kernel to build using a cross-platform development environment. Next we need a working console driver and a completely stripped down kernel to get the kernel to load and initialize itself. There are a number of areas that are going to take a lot of work to make even this much happen. There is talk of a source tree restructuring, but my feeling is that we should put this off as long as possible, so that when we do it, we have a good idea of what we're trying to achieve. The memory subsystem will need to be ripped to shreds and put back together. There is discussion of how to make bus interfaces abstracted in the kernel. Assumptions about the size of int will need fixed. There are many, many things to do. Exactly what order they need to be done in isn't completely clear yet, but we'll manage somehow. ============================================================================= Q.11.) What hardware do I need to be able to help? Pretty much anything can be of use, depending on your goals. For my purposes, the following works well. I'm using a machine based on the UltraAX motherboard. It has a 167 MHz processor, PCI bus, EIDE controller, Ethernet adapter, and serial ports on board. It has 8 (proprietary) SIMM slots, and memory is 4-way interleaved, so SIMMs are added in sets of 4 (I have 4 8MB SIMMS). It is a bit spendy, but there is a newer version of the motherboard based on the (266 or 300 MHz) UltraSPARC IIi processor currently in beta. This processor has a number of things built in (MMU?, PCI chipset?), which makes the cost quite a bit lower. This board also has SCSI instead of EIDE built in, so it will probably be a better choice if any of you are thinking of buying a board. ============================================================================= Q.12.) Where can I purchase a machine suitable for the current porting efforts? See . I successfully ordered machines from here (for Sun). They operate a bit differently than PC component vendors, in that you establish a contact, and then they quote you a price, etc., etc.. ============================================================================= Q.13.) When will the port be done? When is a software project ever "done"? Seriously though, this is a huge project. I hope to have a minimal booting kernel a few months from now. Past that I don't know what kind of projections to make. It will really depend on how much help I get, and what kind of road blocks are encountered. ============================================================================= Q.14.) Why are you working on this when you lack so much background? Because I'm interested in it, and am a major proponent of free software. I can't imagine a job more fulfilling than doing my part to make FreeBSD a technologically superior OS (even more so than now). And as an employee of SME, I can justify this as a project to sell more processors. =) ============================================================================= Q.15.) Where can I get up to date information about the state of the port? Subscribe to the freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org mailing list. To do so, send a message to majordomo@freebsd.org with only the text subscribe freebsd-sparc in the message body. You will receive an email message asking for confirmation. Send the "auth" line by itself in the message body to majordomo@freebsd.org (not freebsd-sparc!). (Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes here. =) ) ============================================================================= Q.16.) What is the state of the FAQ? The FAQ is currently under heavy development, and shortly will be available via ftp and http in ascii, postscript and html format. The FAQ is also regularly posted to freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org ============================================================================= Feel free to ask for further information, or clarification of anything in FAQ. ============================================================================= If you have suggestions or corrections for any of these answers, please send them to to dale@icr.com.au for addition onto the FAQ. ============================================================================= Dale Walker dale@icr.com.au Manager/Sysadmin - ICRnet - Internet Provision and Services Independent Computer Retailers (ICR) http://www.icr.com.au Ph:+61.7.4636.4625 Fax:+61.7.4636.3513 helpdesk@icr.com.au ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 21:23:28 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23959 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:23:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23940 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07421; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:23:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:23:28 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio To: "Reginald J. Reed" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another arch question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Reginald J. Reed wrote: > I see the UltraAX board mentioned, but what about the Ultra's with the > Sbus? I've got an Ultra I Creator at work that I'd love to eventually run > FreeBSD on. Any chance of this? The only major thing preventing this will be the lack of sbus suppport. Chances are that we'll have that at some point, especially since the SPARCstation 5/10/20 machines all use sbus, so someday you will hopefully be able to run FreeBSD on it. I don't know how hard it will be to write the sbus code. About as hard as PCI? Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 21:28:42 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24346 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:28:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24338 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07433; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:28:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:28:42 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio To: Dale Walker cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: whoops (Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) In-Reply-To: <199712160447.OAA05326@fantasy.icr.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Dale Walker wrote: > Feel free to ask for further information, or clarification of anything in > FAQ. Whoops, I made a booboo. It should be "in the FAQ." ^^^ No need for a new release or anything, but we might as well fix it. Thanks again for taking care of the FAQ. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 21:35:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24876 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:35:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fantasy.icr.com.au (fantasy.icr.com.au [203.17.49.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24853 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:34:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by fantasy.icr.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06279; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:33:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dale@icr.com.au) Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1) by fantasy.icr.com.au via smap (V1.3) id sma006275; Tue Dec 16 15:33:22 1997 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:33:22 +1000 (EST) From: Dale Walker To: Jason Evans cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: whoops (Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Jason Evans wrote: > > Feel free to ask for further information, or clarification of anything in > > FAQ. > > Whoops, I made a booboo. It should be "in the FAQ." > ^^^ > done.. "..it will work in the next version.." - quote from Mr. B. Gates > No need for a new release or anything, but we might as well fix it. > Thanks again for taking care of the FAQ. > > Jason > no problem... Cheers, Dale -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dale Walker dale@icr.com.au Manager/Sysadmin - ICRnet - Internet Provision and Services Independent Computer Retailers (ICR) http://www.icr.com.au Ph:+61.7.4636.4625 Fax:+61.7.4636.3513 helpdesk@icr.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- A Flashlight is a case for holding dead batteries -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From owner-freebsd-sparc Mon Dec 15 23:57:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04737 for sparc-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bermuda.io.com (euclid@bermuda.io.com [199.170.88.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04732 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:56:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from euclid@bermuda.io.com) Received: (from euclid@localhost) by bermuda.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA25519; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:56:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19971216015654.28350@io.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:56:54 -0600 From: Matthew Jason Euclid Barnhart To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: www/ftp space Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e X-Barnyard-Animals: Chickens Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If the project folks are interested, I work for Flashnet Communications, a big ISP in Texas (and other areas.) We use all Ultra hardware, and before that, were a FreeBSD shop, so, after talking to a couple of other guys in my group, we would *really* love to host some of the work, even if we can't do any of the development. We can offer about as much ftp/www space as is needed for the project (So long as it doesn't get over a few hundred gigabytes, I guess...). If it's still needed, please let me know, either here or barnhart@flash.net. If not, then I won't have my feelings hurt :) -- Matthew Jason Euclid Barnhart - euclid@io.com - http://www.io.com/~euclid "Tragedy is when I cut my finger; comedy is when *you* walk into an open sewer and die." -- Mel Brooks. From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 05:53:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA26314 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:53:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fantasy.icr.com.au (fantasy.icr.com.au [203.17.49.120]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA26285 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 05:53:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dale@fantasy.icr.com.au) Received: (from dale@localhost) by fantasy.icr.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11649 for freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:52:43 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from dale) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:52:43 +1000 (EST) From: Dale Walker Message-Id: <199712161352.XAA11649@fantasy.icr.com.au> To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting] Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ============================================================================= FreeBSD-sparc FAQ [ frequent Posting ] Latest copy: 971216.01 ============================================================================= Legalese: The following article contains the answers to some Frequently Asked Questions often seen in the freebsd-sparc mailing list. Please don't ask these questions again, they've been answered plenty of times already - and please don't flame someone just because they may not have read this particular posting. Thank you. All information here has been contributed with good intentions, but none of it is guaranteed either by the contributors or myself to be accurate. The users of this information take all responsibility for any damage that may occur. Initially the answers to questions contributed will be verbatim from the mail archives, and credit will be given to author(s). With subsequent updates to the FAQ, these answers will be re-structured to give an informative "third-party" view. ============================================================================= Contents: The following questions are answered: Q.1.) What is the Status of the FreeBSD-sparc project Q.2.) Can I run the port on machine XXX? Q.3.) Why not start from NetBSD/OpenBSD? Q.4.) Who is in charge of the port? Q.5.) What platforms are being targeted for the port? Q.6.) What development environment is being used? Q.7.) How can I contribute code (logistics)? Q.8.) When will the code be merged into -current? Q.9.) Will your (Sun's) work be released to the FreeBSD community? Q.10.) What's the general plan of attack? Q.11.) What hardware do I need to be able to help? Q.12.) Where can I purchase a machine suitable for the current porting Q.13.) When will the port be done? Q.14.) Why are you working on this when you lack so much background? Q.15.) Where can I get up to date information about the state of the port? Q.16.) What is the state of the FAQ? ============================================================================= Q.1.) What is the Status of the FreeBSD-sparc project Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). The SPARC port is in its infancy. How infant? No code has been written yet (though that will change this week). Here's a short history of what led up to this porting effort. Sun Microelectronics (SME) is the part of Sun that makes microprocessors. Up to now, SMCC (the part of Sun that makes workstations) has been the overwhelmingly primary customer of SME. SME naturally wants to expand its sales, and to do that, they need to sell CPUs to people outside of Sun. FreeBSD is perceived as being a way of accomplishing this. To understand why Sun could fund a FreeBSD port, which would seem to conflict with Sun's Solaris offerings, you need to realize that Sun is broken up into separate business units that often _compete_ with each other. The Solaris people at Sun may not like having a FreeBSD port to compete with, but their power to prevent it is somewhat diminished due to the business model. Of course, if the FreeBSD port were a major threat, SMI (the main Sun umbrella company) would put a stop to it. However, this is unlikely, since FreeBSD mostly meets the needs of a different market sector than Solaris. Solaris does wonderful things on big MP servers. FreeBSD is fast and lean for small servers. It is also useful for certain types of embedded applications, which is actually the main reason SME is interested in seeing a port of FreeBSD to SPARC. A while back, SME approached FreeBSD core and offered monetary compensation of some nature (I don't know the details) in exchange for an official UltraSPARC port. FreeBSD core turned down this offer. Once again, I don't know details, but one of the main statements made (actually somewhat inferred) by Jordan Hubbard was that SME's offer was not of major interest since to be of long term use to FreeBSD, such a proposal would need to include support for a number of years from someone internal to Sun. Jordan's statement makes a great deal of sense. I've traced down documentation in preparation for this port that people external to Sun would have had a difficult, perhaps impossible time procuring. Without such access, it is very difficult to make continual progress on such a project. Now it's time to mingle some of my background into this narrative. I started working at SME about 3 months ago. During my first week I caught wind of the negotiations SME was making with FreeBSD core. I expressed extreme interest in working on the project. Through a bit of persistence (and the failure of the proposal made by SME) I was given permission to begin work on the port. My other duties at SME include finding information for software vendors who are porting their OSes/RTOSes to the UltraSPARC. This puts me in a good position to gather hardware information pertinent to the FreeBSD port. So here's the catch. I have access to documentation, a machine to develop on, but very little low level OS or hardware experience. I learn quickly, but I've got a lot to learn. Already several people have been able to help me grasp concepts that are key to porting FreeBSD, but there is much, much more to learn. So, I can use the following types of help (not exclusively, of course): 1) Answer my questions about kernel and hardware details. For example, I have documentation on the MMU, but have never actually dealt with one, so John Dyson has volunteered to get me through the rough spots having to do with memory management, as well as discussing design issues due to the difference in nature between PCs and Suns. 2) Actually write code. I'll get to some important details about this later on in this email. 3) Various administrative things, such as a web page, bug tracking, FAQ, etc. 4) Whatever you can do to help. ============================================================================= Q.2.) Can I run the port on machine XXX? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Well, right now the answer is, without a doubt, no. Coding is just on the verge of beginning. In the longer term though, you will probably have better luck running the port on UltraSPARCs, unless I get lots of help for the other processors. Ian Logan _really_ wants to see this run on 4m machines, and will likely aid in coding. If there are enough others, or if Ian works hard enough, the port will include support for the older machines. Such efforts are not my primary objective, but I'm totally supportive of any progress made. ============================================================================= Q.3.) Why not start from NetBSD/OpenBSD? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). There are multiple answers to this: 1) SME specifically wants a FreeBSD port because that's what potential customers have been clamoring for. 2) I'm particularly attached to FreeBSD, but don't like supporting Intel (both because of their business practices and because of the quality of their products). ============================================================================= Q.4.) Who is in charge of the port? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Well, I (Jason Evans, jasone@canonware.com) initiated the port. This doesn't exactly make me in charge, but you can bet that I'll constantly have my hands dirty working on it. ============================================================================= Q.5.) What platforms are being targeted for the port? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). SME is particularly interested in having the port work on the UltraSPARC. That leaves out the 4m, 4c, etc. (I haven't been around for a terribly long time, so I don't even have it straight in my mind what all there is). My work is going to concentrate on the UltraSPARC, which is a 64 bit processor. ============================================================================= Q.6.) What development environment is being used? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). I'm hoping to use gcc under Solaris and/or FreeBSD. The V9 version of gcc should be ready (from Cygnus) within the next week. This is going to be a source of initial problems, since I'll be the first one to use the compiler and will no doubt run into bugs. If the problems are too extreme I may back off and try to get some real work done using the standard gcc while pounding on the V9 port so that Cygnus has some feedback. ============================================================================= Q.7.) How can I contribute code (logistics)? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Well, here's the plan. I'm hoping to maintain a source tree that tracks -current at the same time as allowing people to commit changes. This is going to be tricky since CVSup hasn't ever been used exactly like this before. The main problem is keeping updates from freebsd.org from clobbering local modifications (version tags need to be dealt with carefully). I've gotten some positive feedback from people on whether this can be done, although clearly the details are going to need hashed out. I could really use help in two respects here: 1) If someone is willing to solve the technical challenges outlined above, I'd be thrilled. 2) I only have a (dedicated) 28.8 modem connection to the net. If anyone has a location with more bandwidth they're willing to let us use, that would be wonderful. ============================================================================= Q.8.) When will the code be merged into -current? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Although there may be small changes committed to -current to facilitate the port, chances are that we won't merge until after 3.0 has been released. In preparation for the 3.0 release sometime next spring, we need to be careful not to introduce code that could cause instability in the release version. Hopefully by that time there will be a lot of work done that can be merged. ============================================================================= Q.9.) Will your (Sun's) work be released to the FreeBSD community? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Absolutely, yes, and on an ongoing basis. Have no fear of my work being yanked. ============================================================================= Q.10.) What's the general plan of attack? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Briefly, the first challenge is to get the kernel to build using a cross-platform development environment. Next we need a working console driver and a completely stripped down kernel to get the kernel to load and initialize itself. There are a number of areas that are going to take a lot of work to make even this much happen. There is talk of a source tree restructuring, but my feeling is that we should put this off as long as possible, so that when we do it, we have a good idea of what we're trying to achieve. The memory subsystem will need to be ripped to shreds and put back together. There is discussion of how to make bus interfaces abstracted in the kernel. Assumptions about the size of int will need fixed. There are many, many things to do. Exactly what order they need to be done in isn't completely clear yet, but we'll manage somehow. ============================================================================= Q.11.) What hardware do I need to be able to help? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Pretty much anything can be of use, depending on your goals. For my purposes, the following works well. I'm using a machine based on the UltraAX motherboard. It has a 167 MHz processor, PCI bus, EIDE controller, Ethernet adapter, and serial ports on board. It has 8 (proprietary) SIMM slots, and memory is 4-way interleaved, so SIMMs are added in sets of 4 (I have 4 8MB SIMMS). It is a bit spendy, but there is a newer version of the motherboard based on the (266 or 300 MHz) UltraSPARC IIi processor currently in beta. This processor has a number of things built in (MMU?, PCI chipset?), which makes the cost quite a bit lower. This board also has SCSI instead of EIDE built in, so it will probably be a better choice if any of you are thinking of buying a board. ============================================================================= Q.12.) Where can I purchase a machine suitable for the current porting efforts? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). See . I successfully ordered machines from here (for Sun). They operate a bit differently than PC component vendors, in that you establish a contact, and then they quote you a price, etc., etc.. ============================================================================= Q.13.) When will the port be done? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). When is a software project ever "done"? Seriously though, this is a huge project. I hope to have a minimal booting kernel a few months from now. Past that I don't know what kind of projections to make. It will really depend on how much help I get, and what kind of road blocks are encountered. ============================================================================= Q.14.) Why are you working on this when you lack so much background? Answered by Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com). Because I'm interested in it, and am a major proponent of free software. I can't imagine a job more fulfilling than doing my part to make FreeBSD a technologically superior OS (even more so than now). And as an employee of SME, I can justify this as a project to sell more processors. =) ============================================================================= Q.15.) Where can I get up to date information about the state of the port? Subscribe to the freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org mailing list. To do so, send a message to majordomo@freebsd.org with only the text subscribe freebsd-sparc in the message body. You will receive an email message asking for confirmation. Send the "auth" line by itself in the message body to majordomo@freebsd.org (not freebsd-sparc!). ============================================================================= Q.16.) What is the state of the FAQ? The FAQ is currently under heavy development, and shortly will be available via ftp and http in ascii, postscript and html format. The FAQ is also regularly posted to freebsd-sparc@freebsd.org ============================================================================= Feel free to ask for further information, or clarification of anything in the FAQ. ============================================================================= If you have suggestions or corrections for any of these answers, please send them to to dale@icr.com.au for addition onto the FAQ. ============================================================================= Dale Walker dale@icr.com.au Manager/Sysadmin - ICRnet - Internet Provision and Services Independent Computer Retailers (ICR) http://www.icr.com.au Ph:+61.7.4636.4625 Fax:+61.7.4636.3513 helpdesk@icr.com.au ============================================================================= From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 13:29:37 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00787 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:29:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xpert.com (xpert.com [199.203.132.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00773 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:29:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yuri@xpert.com) Received: from localhost (yuri@localhost) by xpert.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA25253; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:25:02 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:25:02 +0200 (IST) From: Yuri Gindin To: Dale Walker cc: "Robert S. Sciuk" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Dale Walker wrote: > On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Robert S. Sciuk wrote: > >---snipped---- > > I, myself have an IPX box that's just screaming for an uplift from SunOS > > 4.x -- and what better than FreeBSD?? I am certainly willing to test a > > reasonably stable Beta or even Alpha release for what that's worth, or > > perhaps port some intel code to ensure byte alignment etc is ok. > > I have a couple of SS1's (sun4c) rearing to go as well ... > Mee too, I have IPX (4c) and LX(4m) and want very much to run FreeBSD on it instead of Slowaris. > > understand that OpenBSD (at least) already runs on SPARC (and others) and > > could serve as a base for simple device drivers, and boot code ... but I'm > > sure I cover known territory ... > NetBSD also, although I understand the OpenBSD is more stable.....but I > digress... I think that due to the infantsy of the project, we should > actually find out who can help , what can be provide (ie FAQ's, current > kernel srctree, etc, etc) > really, why we need to reinvent the wheel? It's possible to use the device drivers from Net/OpenBSD, taking into account that the kernel is almost the same except of the VM stuff. They also have superior emulation for StunOS/Slowaris, even NetBSD runs on the top of "NetBSD emulation". There are enough *BSDs around. But FreeBSD is the BestBSD :-) --Yuri. From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 14:26:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06301 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:26:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06274 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09540; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:25:59 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id XAA12979; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:25:53 +0100 (MET) To: Dale Walker , Jason Evans Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting] References: <199712161352.XAA11649@fantasy.icr.com.au> From: Eivind Eklund Date: 16 Dec 1997 23:25:52 +0100 In-Reply-To: Dale Walker's message of Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:52:43 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <86sort9b7z.fsf@bitbox.follo.net> Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.52/XEmacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Jason Evans (jasone@cannonware.com)] > There is talk of a source tree restructuring, but my feeling is that we > should put this off as long as possible, so that when we do it, we have a > good idea of what we're trying to achieve. Just FYI: There is support for multiple architectures in bsd.subdir.mk already - if a .${MACHINE} exists, it will be preferred over the general version. > There is discussion of how to make bus interfaces abstracted in the kernel. John Mark Gurney is probably your best contact on this, possible along with Jason Thorpe of NetBSD (jason@netbsd.org). > Assumptions about the size of int will need fixed. OK, what assumptions are correct on UltraSPARC? (Here comes a set of possible assumptions; could you try to say which are wrong, and I'll try to fix the places where some of them occur?) 1. (void*)(int)(void*) is lossless AKA Pointers can be stored in an int 2. (void*)(long)(void*) is lossless AKA Pointers can be stored in a long 4. (void*)(any type*)(void*) is lossless AKA Different pointer types are equal 8. sizeof(int) == sizeof(long) 16. sizeof(short)*CHAR_BIT == 16 32. sizeof(int)*CHAR_BIT == 32 64. sizeof(int) == 2*sizeof(short) 128. sizeof(long) == 2*sizeof(short) Just add up the numbers of the points that are wrong and give us the sum :-) (Feel free to add more points by the same scheme first) Eivind. From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 14:32:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06796 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.netaccess.on.ca (root@netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06394 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:27:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@ControlQ.com) Received: from fatlady.controlq.com (vet19.netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.211]) by alpha.netaccess.on.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA27791 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:27:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:36:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Robert S. Sciuk" Reply-To: "Robert S. Sciuk" To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Yuri Gindin wrote: ... deletion ... > really, why we need to reinvent the wheel? It's possible to use the device > drivers from Net/OpenBSD, taking into account that the kernel is almost > the same except of the VM stuff. They also have superior emulation for > StunOS/Slowaris, even NetBSD runs on the top of "NetBSD emulation". > There are enough *BSDs around. > But FreeBSD is the BestBSD :-) > > --Yuri. Couldn't have said it better Yuri! ... 8-) On another topic ... I detect a minor problem in the Sun involvement in this project (see the FAQ sent earlier -- Thanks Jason/Dale ). They seem to want to be driving the ultrasparc (64Bit) chip sales with FreeBSD, in which case they should put out a PCI board and processors priced cheaply enough to allow us to hack together our own (preferably SMP) boxes ... and thus justify their investment ... FreeBSD users on the other hand, typically have access to miled out legacy boxes (I know mine is) ... and I'm too cheap to shell out for the Solaris 2.6 release, never mind an ultrasparc server. To be sure, my evidence is anecdotal, my opinion, and may not be indicative of the `typical' FreeBSD user. When Sun finds out about me (and my old IPX) ... will they pull the plug?? 8-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Robert S. Sciuk 1032 Howard Rd. Ph:905 632-2466 Control-Q Research Burlington, Ont. Canada Fx:905 632-7417 rob@ControlQ.com L7R 3X5 http://www.ControlQ.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 14:37:54 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07312 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:37:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chad.ece.nwu.edu (chad.ece.nwu.edu [129.105.5.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07288 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from geisler@chad.ece.nwu.edu) Received: (from geisler@localhost) by chad.ece.nwu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) id QAA19192; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:34:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712162234.QAA19192@chad.ece.nwu.edu> Subject: Bad assumptions To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:34:51 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <86sort9b7z.fsf@bitbox.follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Dec 16, 97 11:25:52 pm" From: geisler@ece.nwu.edu Reply-To: geisler@ece.nwu.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL17 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 1. (void*)(int)(void*) is lossless AKA > Pointers can be stored in an int > 2. (void*)(long)(void*) is lossless AKA > Pointers can be stored in a long > 4. (void*)(any type*)(void*) is lossless AKA > Different pointer types are equal > 8. sizeof(int) == sizeof(long) > 16. sizeof(short)*CHAR_BIT == 16 > 32. sizeof(int)*CHAR_BIT == 32 > 64. sizeof(int) == 2*sizeof(short) > 128. sizeof(long) == 2*sizeof(short) 256. sizeof(long)*CHAR_BIT == 32 -- Jonathan Geisler -- From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 15:27:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10588 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:27:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10564 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:27:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA13925 for freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:26:34 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:26:34 +0100 (MET) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199712162326.AAA13925@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) Newsgroups: list.freebsd-sparc Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-sparc perhaps@yes.no wrote: > > Assumptions about the size of int will need fixed. > > OK, what assumptions are correct on UltraSPARC? (Here comes a set of > possible assumptions; could you try to say which are wrong, and I'll > try to fix the places where some of them occur?) > [...] On DEC Alpha (at least with DEC's cc), the following is true: - sizeof(short) == 2 - sizeof(int) == 4 - sizeof(long) == 8 - sizeof(void*) == 8 Which is a good choice, IMHO. I don't think it is a problem to have sizeof(int) != sizeof(void*), at least I haven't had any problems with that on Alphas. Software which assumes that ints and pointers are of equal size is broken anyway. On the other hand, I don't know how efficient it is to access 32 bit units on the UltraSparc, compared to 64 bit units. If 32 bit accesses involve a penalty (especially if they are not 64-bit-aligned), it might be worth to use sizeof(int) = sizeof(long) = 8. Is there a special version of gcc for UltraSparc? If so, we will have to use its idea of the data type sizes, I'm afraid, so there's no choice. Just my 2 cents... Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 15:42:39 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11646 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:42:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11384 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11606 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:36:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:36:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) In-Reply-To: <199712162326.AAA13925@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Oliver Fromme wrote: > Is there a special version of gcc for UltraSparc? If so, we > will have to use its idea of the data type sizes, I'm afraid, > so there's no choice. Supposedly I will get a copy of it on the 20th (Huh? That's a Saturday!). Yep, we'll need to adopt whatever conventions it uses. I don't know much about it at this point, so I'll have to wait to answer the questions about type conversions and sizes until I get the compiler running. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 16:59:44 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17613 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:59:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17562 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11955; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:58:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:58:33 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio Reply-To: Jason Evans To: "Robert S. Sciuk" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Robert S. Sciuk wrote: > I detect a minor problem in the Sun involvement in this project (see the > FAQ sent earlier -- Thanks Jason/Dale ). They seem to want to be driving > the ultrasparc (64Bit) chip sales with FreeBSD, in which case they should > put out a PCI board and processors priced cheaply enough to allow us to > hack together our own (preferably SMP) boxes ... and thus justify their > investment ... Sun is in the process of doing exactly what you propose. They currently have a MB/CPU with PCI (and a number of other things) for about $2900. This is a bit spendy still. The next board they put out in the next few months will be much faster, and it will cost almost $1000 less. This upcoming board will AFAIK have a comparable price/performance to P6-based boards. As for SMP, that's still spendy, but don't expect it to stay that way forever. As for Sun involvement in this project, there are two things to point out: 1) This project was started by a Sun employee (me), so claiming Sun shouldn't be involved is a bit strange. =) Actually, if I understand your statement, you're saying that Sun would be stupid to put effort into porting FreeBSD without offering an affordable system to run it on. Yes, that would be silly, but they're providing the goods. 2) Sun must necessarily focus on ways to make money. That means selling new processors. Such is the way of a free economy. It happens in this case that people stand to benefit in a major way (i.e. FreeBSD for the UltraSPARC). Even if I weren't working for Sun, chances are that I would limit my initial efforts to the UltraSPARC, and perhaps the sun4m, just to keep the project scope reasonable. Porting to the UltraSPARC is the hard part. If people want to run FreeBSD on the sun4c, they will have lots to work with, between the UltraSPARC port and what has been done for NetBSD and OpenBSD. I should also mention that Ian Logan is planning to put some serious effort into making sun4m work under FreeBSD. That doesn't take care of your IPX, but it does cover most machines still commonly used today. > FreeBSD users on the other hand, typically have access to miled out legacy > boxes (I know mine is) ... and I'm too cheap to shell out for the Solaris > 2.6 release, never mind an ultrasparc server. To be sure, my evidence is > anecdotal, my opinion, and may not be indicative of the `typical' FreeBSD > user. When Sun finds out about me (and my old IPX) ... will they pull the > plug?? 8-) I have contemplated scenarios where Sun might pull the plug. There are certain risks, but you running FreeBSD on an IPX is hardly one of them. =) Here's what I'm doing to ensure my efforts are not yanked from the community: * Source repository on an external site. * Up to date access to my code. * Assurance from my manager that all of my work can (and should) be available to the FreeBSD community under the standard FreeBSD license. So, even if I get pulled off of the project in an official capacity, all of my work will still be there without restrictions. And, even if I get pulled off, I will continue to work on the project on my own time. >From now on I'm going to try to avoid spending much time on "public relations" mail like this so that I can get more real work done. I hope at this point that Sun's (SME's actually) and my motivations for this project are clear. I hope it's clear that my official efforts are necessarily limited to the UltraSPARC, though there will be others working on sun4m support. Recognize also that my concentration on the UltraSPARC may well make the difference between a mere working port and a truly excellent computing platform. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 17:11:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19002 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:11:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (gregl1.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18970 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:11:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA27621; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:40:54 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19971217114053.51947@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:40:53 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) References: <199712162326.AAA13925@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199712162326.AAA13925@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de>; from Oliver Fromme on Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 12:26:34AM +0100 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 12:26:34AM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: > In list.freebsd-sparc perhaps@yes.no wrote: >>> Assumptions about the size of int will need fixed. >> >> OK, what assumptions are correct on UltraSPARC? (Here comes a set of >> possible assumptions; could you try to say which are wrong, and I'll >> try to fix the places where some of them occur?) >> [...] > > On DEC Alpha (at least with DEC's cc), the following is true: > - sizeof(short) == 2 > - sizeof(int) == 4 > - sizeof(long) == 8 > - sizeof(void*) == 8 > Which is a good choice, IMHO. I don't think it is a problem to > have sizeof(int) != sizeof(void*), at least I haven't had any > problems with that on Alphas. Software which assumes that ints > and pointers are of equal size is broken anyway. > > On the other hand, I don't know how efficient it is to access > 32 bit units on the UltraSparc, compared to 64 bit units. > If 32 bit accesses involve a penalty (especially if they are > not 64-bit-aligned), it might be worth to use sizeof(int) = > sizeof(long) = 8. Agreed on both points. But doesn't it make more sense to see how Solaris 2/SunOS 5 defines them? > Is there a special version of gcc for UltraSparc? If so, we > will have to use its idea of the data type sizes, I'm afraid, > so there's no choice. Sure there is. You can always modify it. But without an excellent reason, I don't think it's a good idea to change things from the way other operating systems on the same platform do it. Greg From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 17:19:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19658 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19654 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:19:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xi89G-0000b9-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:19:42 -0700 Message-ID: <34972A53.FAB04B79@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:26:43 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Evans CC: "Reginald J. Reed" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another arch question... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Evans wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Reginald J. Reed wrote: > > I see the UltraAX board mentioned, but what about the Ultra's with the > > Sbus? I've got an Ultra I Creator at work that I'd love to eventually run > > FreeBSD on. Any chance of this? > > The only major thing preventing this will be the lack of sbus suppport. > Chances are that we'll have that at some point, especially since the > SPARCstation 5/10/20 machines all use sbus, so someday you will hopefully > be able to run FreeBSD on it. I don't know how hard it will be to write > the sbus code. About as hard as PCI? Close. They're fairly similar in capabilities. The OpenBSD code should be revealing of any major difficulties. Not that I'm suggesting we just incorporate OpenBSD. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 17:28:24 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20431 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:28:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20420 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:28:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xi8HP-0000yM-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:28:07 -0700 Message-ID: <34972C4C.9BC394DD@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:35:08 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Evans CC: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Evans wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > Is there a special version of gcc for UltraSparc? If so, we > > will have to use its idea of the data type sizes, I'm afraid, > > so there's no choice. Certainly *not*. Changing the machine definitions file is quite easy, really, but you might have to debug some nasty bugs on the back-end of the compiler. If there are particular data sizes that *really* make sense on the Ultra architecture, we should use those. > Supposedly I will get a copy of it on the 20th (Huh? That's a Saturday!). > Yep, we'll need to adopt whatever conventions it uses. I don't know much > about it at this point, so I'll have to wait to answer the questions about > type conversions and sizes until I get the compiler running. I'm sure the architecture type will be defined on the command line with something like -msparc-v9, or something similar. This tells the compiler to use the 'machine' described in the sparc-v9 'machine description', which you can tweak to some extent. I've used gcc on SPARC v7, v8, and SPARClite processors, and had a pretty good experience across all those. Let's hope the transition to v9 is as smooth as the introduction of v8 instructions was. Of course, they didn't have to change the processor "size" going from v7 to v8. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 17:55:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23167 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:55:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22592 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:49:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xi8cE-00025m-00; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:49:38 -0700 Message-ID: <34973157.79C96A51@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:56:39 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert S. Sciuk" CC: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert S. Sciuk wrote: > I detect a minor problem in the Sun involvement in this project (see the > FAQ sent earlier -- Thanks Jason/Dale ). They seem to want to be driving > the ultrasparc (64Bit) chip sales with FreeBSD, in which case they should > put out a PCI board and processors priced cheaply enough to allow us to > hack together our own (preferably SMP) boxes ... and thus justify their > investment ... They're planning on it. Now, when they say competitive pricing, I assume they mean competitive with high-end Pentium II SMP boards, not competitive with low-end TX motherboards for $69, with $89 Pentium processors on them. Caveat Programmor! ;^) > FreeBSD users on the other hand, typically have access to miled out legacy > boxes (I know mine is) ... and I'm too cheap to shell out for the Solaris > 2.6 release, never mind an ultrasparc server. To be sure, my evidence is > anecdotal, my opinion, and may not be indicative of the `typical' FreeBSD > user. When Sun finds out about me (and my old IPX) ... will they pull the > plug?? 8-) Nah, this is Sun. They're happy to have you running *any* Sun hardware, because they figure if you like it enough, you'll eventually get your employer, your customers, or maybe even your wife to buy some *new* Sun hardware. ;^) Plus, if you understand who SME's customers are, you'll understand what *their* thrust for FreeBSD is going to be. I'm toying with the idea of asking Fujitsu to get involved with this, since I am a (very very small- scale) customer of theirs. Wouldn't that be cool, to have SME *and* Fujitsu Microelectronics sponsoring FreeBSD-SPARC development? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 18:46:33 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27356 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:46:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from feral.com (mjacob@feral.mauswerks.net [204.152.96.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27337 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:46:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: (from mjacob@localhost) by feral.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id SAA25484; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:46:12 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:46:12 -0800 From: Matthew Jacob Message-Id: <199712170246.SAA25484@feral.com> To: rob@ControlQ.com, softweyr@xmission.com Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! Cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ummm. As a former Sun employee (and currently a contractor), let me throw in some possibly helpful perspective. Sun, like any other quite large company, is actually *many* companies- and not all of them have the same goals. SMCC makes sparc h/w, and for some of the folks there, the OS you use is irrelevant as long as you buy the h/w (run a full multitasking FORTH montitor, NT, SunOS, NetBSD, whatever....).. SunSoft sells the Operating System (choir, please). I had an old buddy and fellow DDI group member tell me a month ago that "Solaris will now become the De Facto Unix Standard". For those of you who've been with Unix long enough to remember, the only response to that is: eh? So, keep in mind *which* Sun you're talking about when you make statements about "Sun". -matt jacob From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 19:37:17 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02168 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:37:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (5WOchMrkocH492lGvT21exSarD+Lnk4l@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01761 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA15014 for freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:31:53 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:31:53 +0100 (MET) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199712170331.EAA15014@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) Newsgroups: list.freebsd-sparc Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In list.freebsd-sparc Wes Peters wrote (17 Dec 1997 02:54:50 +0100): > > On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > > > > Is there a special version of gcc for UltraSparc? If so, we > > > will have to use its idea of the data type sizes, I'm afraid, > > > so there's no choice. > > Certainly *not*. Changing the machine definitions file is quite easy, really, > but you might have to debug some nasty bugs on the back-end of the compiler. > If there are particular data sizes that *really* make sense on the Ultra > architecture, we should use those. Good point. (But if those data sizes *really* make sense, the gcc for UltraSparc should already use them, shouldn't it?) Just to add two thoughts: - Gcc has a "long long" type (not ANSI-C compliant, of course) which is 64 bits on the x86 platform. We should _not_ use that convention on the UltraSparc which is natively 64 bit. At least sizeof(long) should be 8. - In Solaris, sizeof(int) is 4. I suppose it's because of the required binary compatibility. (BTW: Will we ever want to be able to run Solaris binaries under FreeBSD-Sparc? That would probably be a tough piece of work.) So the question is: 32 or 64 bits for ints? I think the answer depends on how efficient 32-bit accesses (possibly not 64-bit-aligned) are one the UltraSparc, as I mentioned in my previous posting. Personally I'd prefer 32 bits (if there are no efficiency reasons for 64 bits), because it seems to be more elegant to me. Then we would have types for all the common sizes: 8 bits (char), 16 bits (short), 32 bits (int), 64 bits (long). This is not exactly a technical reason, though (I don't think that there's software that has problems if there is no 32 bit type). Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 21:19:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10012 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:19:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crb.mnsinc.com [206.239.213.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09967 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:19:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07146; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:26:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:26:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) In-Reply-To: <19971217114053.51947@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wed, Dec 17, 1997 at 12:26:34AM +0100, Oliver Fromme wrote: >> In list.freebsd-sparc perhaps@yes.no wrote: >>>> Assumptions about the size of int will need fixed. >>> >>> OK, what assumptions are correct on UltraSPARC? (Here comes a set of >>> possible assumptions; could you try to say which are wrong, and I'll >>> try to fix the places where some of them occur?) >>> [...] >> >> On DEC Alpha (at least with DEC's cc), the following is true: >> - sizeof(short) == 2 >> - sizeof(int) == 4 >> - sizeof(long) == 8 >> - sizeof(void*) == 8 >> Which is a good choice, IMHO. I don't think it is a problem to >> have sizeof(int) != sizeof(void*), at least I haven't had any >> problems with that on Alphas. Software which assumes that ints >> and pointers are of equal size is broken anyway. >> >> On the other hand, I don't know how efficient it is to access >> 32 bit units on the UltraSparc, compared to 64 bit units. >> If 32 bit accesses involve a penalty (especially if they are >> not 64-bit-aligned), it might be worth to use sizeof(int) = >> sizeof(long) = 8. > >Agreed on both points. But doesn't it make more sense to see how >Solaris 2/SunOS 5 defines them? > >> Is there a special version of gcc for UltraSparc? If so, we >> will have to use its idea of the data type sizes, I'm afraid, >> so there's no choice. > >Sure there is. You can always modify it. But without an excellent >reason, I don't think it's a good idea to change things from the way >other operating systems on the same platform do it. > >Greg In fact, if any kind of binary compatability (which would be a wonderful thing) is desired, having portability of header files, and interfaces would be greatly facilitated. Imagine a Yahoo banner, FreeBSD/SPARC runs faster than Slowaris! --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page From owner-freebsd-sparc Tue Dec 16 22:37:05 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15119 for sparc-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15111 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 22:36:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00449; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:18:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199712170618.BAA00449@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) In-Reply-To: from "Christopher R. Bowman" at "Dec 17, 97 00:26:31 am" To: crb@ChrisBowman.com (Christopher R. Bowman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:18:24 -0500 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christopher R. Bowman said: > > In fact, if any kind of binary compatability (which would be a wonderful > thing) is desired, having portability of header files, and interfaces would > be greatly facilitated. Imagine a Yahoo banner, FreeBSD/SPARC runs > faster than Slowaris! > I am mostly lurking on this development right now, but it seems to me that some kind of very rough compatibility with Solaris wouldn't be a bad idea. Maybe we don't have all of the system calls or interfaces (e.g. streams, or whatnot), but that would not be the point. At least we would start from a solid base. Again, this is just an opinion. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 01:26:07 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26071 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:26:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26060 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA14150 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:25:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:25:27 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio Reply-To: Jason Evans To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Web site for FreeBSD SPARC Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dale Walker has been kind enough to set up a machine in support of the SPARC FreeBSD porting project. See . Right now there isn't much of anything there. Dale is providing a machine which is hosting a bug tracking system, the web site, and will be also hosting the master sources (as soon as I figure out some technical details). There are a couple of things we could really use help on at this point: * Web site maintenance. As you can see, we need some material here. No need to make it huge right off the bat, but pointers back to the main FreeBSD page, the FAQ, etc. would be nice. There was also a suggestion at one point to compile a list of URLs to Sun (and other) web pages documenting pertinent hardware. * Bug tracking maintenance. I'm not familiar with the system being used yet, but if you're willing to help on this and want more info, or you have suggestions about bug tracking methodology, send email to or this list, as seems fit. Finally, a big THANKS! to Dale Walker, who has put a lot of time and effort into making this site available. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 04:20:52 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05263 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:20:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05239 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:20:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA19027; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:22:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712171222.EAA19027@implode.root.com> To: Jason Evans cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Web site for FreeBSD SPARC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:25:27 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 04:22:41 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Dale Walker has been kind enough to set up a machine in support of the >SPARC FreeBSD porting project. See . Right >now there isn't much of anything there. Dale is providing a machine >which is hosting a bug tracking system, the web site, and will be >also hosting the master sources (as soon as I figure out some technical >details). ... >* Bug tracking maintenance. I'm not familiar with the system being used > yet, but if you're willing to help on this and want more info, or > you have suggestions about bug tracking methodology, send email to > or this list, as seems fit. I think it would be best to use our existing bug tracking system, "GNATS", and database on freefall.freebsd.org. Has an account been created for you on freefall and hub? If not, this needs to happen soon. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 07:35:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18688 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:35:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.netaccess.on.ca (root@netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18672 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:35:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@ControlQ.com) Received: from fatlady.controlq.com (vav63.netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.191]) by alpha.netaccess.on.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25395; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:35:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:45:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Robert S. Sciuk" To: Jason Evans cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Jason Evans wrote: ... my stuff deleted ... > Sun is in the process of doing exactly what you propose. They currently > have a MB/CPU with PCI (and a number of other things) for about $2900. > This is a bit spendy still. The next board they put out in the next few > months will be much faster, and it will cost almost $1000 less. This > upcoming board will AFAIK have a comparable price/performance to P6-based > boards. As for SMP, that's still spendy, but don't expect it to stay that > way forever. Great! > > As for Sun involvement in this project, there are two things to point out: > > 1) This project was started by a Sun employee (me), so claiming Sun > shouldn't be involved is a bit strange. =) Actually, if I understand your > statement, you're saying that Sun would be stupid to put effort into > porting FreeBSD without offering an affordable system to run it on. Yes, > that would be silly, but they're providing the goods. > Jason, I made no such claims. In fact, I appreciate more than I can reasonably express what such a corporate commitment means to this project in the long run. I am _THRILLED_ to hear that they might be offering board level prodcuts that can be plied by s/w developers such as myself. Moreover, I have NEVER referred to SMCC, SME, SunSoft or any of its affiliates, partners or clients as `stupid' -- Microsoft on the other hand ... well let's not go there 8-). > 2) Sun must necessarily focus on ways to make money. That means selling > new processors. Such is the way of a free economy. It happens in this > case that people stand to benefit in a major way (i.e. FreeBSD for the > UltraSPARC). True -- as long as their motives are not mistaken for a pure altruistic betterment of planet kinda' thingy. My concerns were more along the lines of -- if they do pull the plug will this effort die on the vine ... and I believe that your comments below address my concern -- thanks. > > Even if I weren't working for Sun, chances are that I would limit my > initial efforts to the UltraSPARC, and perhaps the sun4m, just to keep the > project scope reasonable. Porting to the UltraSPARC is the hard part. If > people want to run FreeBSD on the sun4c, they will have lots to work with, > between the UltraSPARC port and what has been done for NetBSD and OpenBSD. > > I should also mention that Ian Logan is planning to put some serious > effort into making sun4m work under FreeBSD. That doesn't take care of > your IPX, but it does cover most machines still commonly used today. ... more of my comments deleted ... > > > I have contemplated scenarios where Sun might pull the plug. There are > certain risks, but you running FreeBSD on an IPX is hardly one of them. =) > ... relevent comments excised ... Thanks Jason ... my concerns are alleviated. Cheers, rss -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Robert S. Sciuk 1032 Howard Rd. Ph:905 632-2466 Control-Q Research Burlington, Ont. Canada Fx:905 632-7417 rob@ControlQ.com L7R 3X5 http://www.ControlQ.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 08:45:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23328 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.netaccess.on.ca (root@netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23026 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@ControlQ.com) Received: from fatlady.controlq.com (vav63.netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.191]) by alpha.netaccess.on.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29986; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:40:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:49:51 -0500 (EST) From: "Robert S. Sciuk" To: Oliver Fromme cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) In-Reply-To: <199712170331.EAA15014@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > So the question is: 32 or 64 bits for ints? I think the > answer depends on how efficient 32-bit accesses (possibly not > 64-bit-aligned) are one the UltraSparc, as I mentioned in my > previous posting. > > Personally I'd prefer 32 bits (if there are no efficiency > reasons for 64 bits), because it seems to be more elegant to > me. Then we would have types for all the common sizes: > 8 bits (char), 16 bits (short), 32 bits (int), 64 bits (long). > This is not exactly a technical reason, though (I don't think > that there's software that has problems if there is no 32 bit > type). IMHO, the integer type (int) should be the `natural' integer size for the architecture -- that is, the natural bus/register width, and that which is best represented by instructions to support that datatype. No offence intended, but personal preference should not enter into this decision ... millions of lines of existing code depend upon certain assumptions regarding wordsizes ... it may ultimately require compiler switches, and multiple Clibs (a la' the early intel C compilers -- ugh). Moreover, I recall recently some sort of announcement of FreeBSD offering some degree of single unix compliance (X/Open, or OpenGroup or some such thingy) at some time in the ill-defined future :-). I'm sure that Sun(Soft) has some degree of compliance as well. Whatever decision is made, consideration needs to be given to compliant API's, file sizes, memory addressability, etc. It is critical to provide full access to the h/w capabilities (eg: not run a 32Bit OS on 64Bit HW like NT/Alpha), while allowing the potential for compatability with 32Bit HW -- and moreover to preserve the portability of existing software!!. Nor should we fail to learn from past mistakes (vendor variations in the 16-32bit transition). A good starting point is the whitepaper referenced below. If the industry at large has agreed to a solution, perhaps we should listen?? http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/datasize.html and ... http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/lp64_wp.html I hope this is useful. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Robert S. Sciuk 1032 Howard Rd. Ph:905 632-2466 Control-Q Research Burlington, Ont. Canada Fx:905 632-7417 rob@ControlQ.com L7R 3X5 http://www.ControlQ.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 09:00:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24498 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:00:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu (root@louis.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu [146.245.1.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24487 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:00:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dayton@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu) Received: (from dayton@localhost) by sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu (8.8.7/8.8.4) id LAA04694; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:58:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:58:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712171658.LAA04694@sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu> From: Dayton Clark To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199712171221.EAA05304@hub.freebsd.org> (owner-freebsd-sparc-digest@freebsd.org) Subject: Re: freebsd-sparc-digest V1 #3 Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow! Sounds exciting. About how much diskspace is needed to store the source tree? dayton > I could really use help in two respects here: > 1) If someone is willing to solve the technical challenges outlined > above, I'd be thrilled. > 2) I only have a (dedicated) 28.8 modem connection to the net. If anyone > has a location with more bandwidth they're willing to let us use, that > would be wonderful. From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 09:34:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26701 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:34:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from osibisa.cl.msu.edu (osibisa.cl.msu.edu [35.8.1.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26627 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ikhala@osibisa.cl.msu.edu) Received: by osibisa.cl.msu.edu (SMI-8.6/MSU-2.20) id RAA18268; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:33:02 GMT Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:33:02 GMT From: "I'khala" Message-Id: <199712171733.RAA18268@osibisa.cl.msu.edu> To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: UltraAX Reference manuals?? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does Sun publish any hardware or software reference manuals along the lines of those published by intel for there processor family? If so when will they be available for the UltraAX? (if they aren't already) My background is mostly with pc's, but I'm working more with Suns and I'd like to get mor info on their h/w and programming interface ... thanxs From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 10:15:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29125 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29113; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:15:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id LAA28397; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:14:57 -0700 (MST) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199712171814.LAA28397@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:14:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: sparc@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199712170618.BAA00449@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Dec 17, 97 01:18:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Dyson illuminated us thusly: > I am mostly lurking on this development right now, but it seems to me > that some kind of very rough compatibility with Solaris wouldn't be a > bad idea. Maybe we don't have all of the system calls or interfaces > (e.g. streams, or whatnot), but that would not be the point. At least > we would start from a solid base. Again, this is just an opinion. Certainly we should at least shoot for SunOS compatability. That should be a reasonable near-term feat, given the common heritage of the two OSs. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 12:20:43 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09744 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09736 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:20:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16672; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:17:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:17:02 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio Reply-To: Jason Evans To: David Greenman cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Web site for FreeBSD SPARC In-Reply-To: <199712171222.EAA19027@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, David Greenman wrote: > I think it would be best to use our existing bug tracking system, > "GNATS", and database on freefall.freebsd.org. Has an account been created > for you on freefall and hub? If not, this needs to happen soon. Fine with me. I've mainly been trying to stay out of the hair of the main FreeBSD development, but using the main database on freefall is fine. Who do I talk to to make this happen? Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 12:22:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09851 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:22:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09842 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:22:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16680; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:19:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:18:54 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio Reply-To: Jason Evans To: "Robert S. Sciuk" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeloading FreeBSD for Free -- NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Robert S. Sciuk wrote: > > 1) This project was started by a Sun employee (me), so claiming Sun > > shouldn't be involved is a bit strange. =) Actually, if I understand your > > statement, you're saying that Sun would be stupid to put effort into > > porting FreeBSD without offering an affordable system to run it on. Yes, > > that would be silly, but they're providing the goods. > > > Jason, I made no such claims. In fact, I appreciate more than I > can reasonably express what such a corporate commitment means to > this project in the long run. I am _THRILLED_ to hear that they > might be offering board level prodcuts that can be plied by s/w > developers such as myself. Moreover, I have NEVER referred to > SMCC, SME, SunSoft or any of its affiliates, partners or clients > as `stupid' -- Microsoft on the other hand ... well let's not go > there 8-). I shouldn't have used the word "stupid" here. I didn't mean to infer that you had used such a word. Sorry about the poor wording. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 12:25:11 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10126 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:25:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paladio.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10115 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:25:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by paladio.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16706; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:24:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:24:12 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans X-Sender: jasone@paladio Reply-To: Jason Evans To: "I'khala" cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UltraAX Reference manuals?? In-Reply-To: <199712171733.RAA18268@osibisa.cl.msu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, I'khala wrote: > Does Sun publish any hardware or software reference manuals along the > lines of those published by intel for there processor family? If so > when will they be available for the UltraAX? (if they aren't already) > My background is mostly with pc's, but I'm working more with Suns and > I'd like to get mor info on their h/w and programming interface ... The UltraAX is a particular board, for which there is an OEM technical manual. The problem there is that I've got one of the only two copies I've ever seen. As for the UltraSPARC processor, yes there's a manual. I don't have a copy with me, but it is a relatively complete (definitely useful) manual. Does anyone know where external info for Sun manuals can be found (this needs to go into the FAQ)? I just walk down to the lit room and grab a copy... Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 13:14:41 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14122 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:14:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.netaccess.on.ca (root@netaccess.on.ca [199.243.225.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14113 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rob@ControlQ.com) Received: from fatlady.controlq.com ([199.243.225.218]) by alpha.netaccess.on.ca (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA25596 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:14:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:24:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Robert S. Sciuk" To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI, I'm not sure that this message went out to the list, but relevant info appears at the following sites: http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/datasize.html and ... http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/lp64_wp.html I hope that this proves useful. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Robert S. Sciuk 1032 Howard Rd. Ph:905 632-2466 Control-Q Research Burlington, Ont. Canada Fx:905 632-7417 rob@ControlQ.com L7R 3X5 http://www.ControlQ.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 15:57:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28245 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:57:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (YmklRcEHC3PGDGav0TAyjrE58m7EZoX1@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de [139.174.243.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28236 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 15:57:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) Received: (from olli@localhost) by dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA20211 for freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:57:20 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:57:20 +0100 (MET) From: Oliver Fromme Message-Id: <199712172357.AAA20211@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de> To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types Newsgroups: list.freebsd-sparc Organization: Administration Heim 3 Reply-To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 RZTUC(3) PL2] Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert S. Sciuk wrote in list.freebsd-sparc: > I'm not sure that this message went out to the list, but relevant info > appears at the following sites: > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/datasize.html > > and ... > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/lp64_wp.html > > I hope that this proves useful. Indeed, very interesting documents. Thanks! Especially, the chapter "Performance Characteristics" in the second document illuminates the question whether ints should be 32 or 64 bits on a hardware platform which is natively 64 bits (they mention Alpha, MIPS, Sparc V9 [AKA Ultra] and PowerPC). They come to the conclusion that ints should be 32 bits, and longs and pointers should be 64 bits, with which I tend to agree. (Note: ILP64 means ints, longs, and pointers are all 64 bits, LP64 means that ints are 32 bits.) Some software vendors have experimented with an ILP64 model, which can be approximated on LP64 systems by changing all int declarations to long. In these cases, the conclusion reached after these experiments was not to use ILP64, since the application did not benefit from the additional range of int values and did not wish to pay the performance penalty of extra memory use. [...] All this, as well as natural use of the native C datatypes to support all the widths needed in a 64-bit system make a compelling argument for the inherent advantage of LP64. This is just a small excerpt; I recommend to read the whole document. Regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, Leibnizstr. 18-61, 38678 Clausthal, Germany (Info: finger userinfo:olli@dorifer.heim3.tu-clausthal.de) From owner-freebsd-sparc Wed Dec 17 18:33:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08948 for sparc-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:33:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08918 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:33:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rmf@radiks.net) Received: from radiks.net (rmf@dmn116.radiks.net [208.154.148.138]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04802 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 20:22:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34988B26.7F0C8B1B@radiks.net> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:32:06 +0000 From: Ric Flinn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Register windowing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just recenly joined this list, and I'm no expert in the Sparc architecture or Sparc OS's, but I'm curious about how FreeBSD for the sparc will handle register windowing. I know there are several ways an OS can use register windowing, perhaps there are obvious advantages to one method or another that I don't know about. Glad to see a Sparc port underway. Ric Flinn rmf@radiks.net From owner-freebsd-sparc Sat Dec 20 22:54:50 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12691 for sparc-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:54:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mozart.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12686 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:54:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by mozart.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00730; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:54:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) X-Authentication-Warning: mozart.canonware.com: jasone owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:54:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans Reply-To: Jason Evans To: Ric Flinn cc: freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Register windowing In-Reply-To: <34988B26.7F0C8B1B@radiks.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Ric Flinn wrote: > I just recenly joined this list, and I'm no expert in the Sparc > architecture or Sparc OS's, but I'm curious about how FreeBSD for the > sparc will handle register windowing. I know there are several ways an > OS can use register windowing, perhaps there are obvious advantages to > one method or another that I don't know about. Well, I don't think I can answer your question, so let me outline what I understand of register windowing so that we can start a discussion that can lead to the OS register windowing handler methods you refer to. Here are basic bits of info that I think are true (correct me if I'm wrong): A register window consists of the 24 non-global integer registers in the non-privileged register file. 8 of those registers are specified for passing arguments to nested functions (outs). 8 are specified for receiving the return values from function calls (ins). The other 8 are for local variables. (Stack pointers are included in these numbers.) Adjacent register windows overlap, in that if foo calls bar, foo's outs are the same as bar's ins. The CPU has room to buffer a certain number of register windows on chip without having to write them out to memory. So, the operating system gets involved when all of its register window buffers fill, and another register window is saved. This creates a register window overflow, or spill trap. The OS then has to save some number (>0) of register windows to the program stack. The inverse is when restoring a register window, it isn't already in a buffer, which causes a register window underflow, or fill trap. Now the OS has to restore some number of register windows from the stack into the CPU (>0). ---- The main issue I can see here is how to decide how many register windows should be saved or restored when a trap occurs. Say we've got a program doing deep recursion and we only save one window at a time when a spill trap occurs. We're going to end up trapping every time we recurse. On the other hand, say that we flush all of the windows when a spill trap occurs. But the program then returns with out calling any deeper nested functions. Now we've got a fill trap on our hands. So a policy of flushing and restoring the maximum number of windows on a trap can also be bad. If we took the approach of trying to keep the window register buffers half occupied, this would seem to be a nice middle ground, though certain applications (such as deeply recursive) would see much better performance if we took a different approach. The possibility of dynamic adjustment comes to mind, but it seems to me that it would be extremely difficult to implement useful statistical methods without spending so much time in analysis that we lose the benefits. Is this what you were getting at? I haven't read any particulars about how OSes handle these issues, and I'd love to hear about it. Jason P.S. Apologies to all of you for my "disappearance" over the last couple of days. I've been busy setting up my mail server, and felt it prudent to get the mail problems taken care of instead of sporadically responding to email. Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] From owner-freebsd-sparc Sat Dec 20 23:12:20 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13358 for sparc-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:12:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13349 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:12:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [199.104.124.49] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xjfYZ-0001iS-00; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:12:12 -0700 Message-ID: <349CC2B8.100720B4@xmission.com> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:18:16 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Evans CC: "I'khala" , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UltraAX Reference manuals?? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason Evans wrote: > Does anyone know where external info for Sun manuals can be found (this > needs to go into the FAQ)? I just walk down to the lit room and grab a > copy... Yeah - I just went to www.sun.com and used the search applet to look for "UltraAX" and "reference." One of the first couple of links pointed to http://www.sun.com/microelectronics/SEUAX/techinfo.html which has some good, detailed information on the UltraAX board. These are mostly PDF files, including the OEM Technical Manual and the Ultra AX Motherboard Configuration Guide. I assume similar searches for the processor, etc. would be fruitful as well. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-sparc Sat Dec 20 23:41:46 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14778 for sparc-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:41:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mozart.canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14773 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: from localhost (jasone@localhost) by mozart.canonware.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00785; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:40:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) X-Authentication-Warning: mozart.canonware.com: jasone owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:40:55 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Evans Reply-To: Jason Evans To: "Robert S. Sciuk" cc: Oliver Fromme , freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Data types (was: Re: FAQ FreeBSD-Sparc [frequent posting]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Robert S. Sciuk wrote: > On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > So the question is: 32 or 64 bits for ints? I think the > > answer depends on how efficient 32-bit accesses (possibly not > > 64-bit-aligned) are one the UltraSparc, as I mentioned in my > > previous posting. > > It is critical to provide full access to the > h/w capabilities (eg: not run a 32Bit OS on 64Bit HW like NT/Alpha), while > allowing the potential for compatability with 32Bit HW -- and moreover to > preserve the portability of existing software!!. As for the UltraSPARC, I've been having a hard time finding info on the efficiency of 32 vs 64 bit integer operations. This is of course an issue, but I think that industry standards should take precedence over the particulars of the UltraSPARC in this decision, simply because FreeBSD could be an oddball otherwise. Ultimately, it doesn't seem to me that using 32 bit ints could possibly be debilitating, sinces longs will be 64 bits no matter what, which gives full access to 64 bit ints. We're really asking if we want to throw away a capability, and it seems to me way too early in the evolution of 64 bits machines to do so. > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/datasize.html > > and ... > > http://www.UNIX-systems.org/version2/whatsnew/lp64_wp.html I've read through these web pages, as well as following the discussion that ensued here. My feeling is that we should go with LP-64 (char --> 8, short --> 16, int --> 32, long --> 64, pointer --> 64). This seems to me the most useful from a programming perspective, and it also appears to be the up and coming standard way of doing things. Like I said before, we wouldn't be throwing away functionality by choosing this. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison]