From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 03:28:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00402 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:28:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA00381 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:28:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA19071 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:28:23 -0800 (PST) To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Alpha port.. Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:28:23 -0800 Message-ID: <19067.884086103@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, it's a new year - what do we want to do with this baby - drown it, feed it or continue to ignore it? ;-) If anyone would be facilitated in any way by having an account on my ALPHA Durango PC164/500 running NetBSD 1.3, you also only need but ask. It's got gigabytes of space free and sits completely idle 24 hours a day. If someone wanted to start in trying to make FreeBSD userland 64-bit clean or something, for example, they could pretty much do it all from a simple shell account and some disk space. Anyway, it's just an offer. ;) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 05:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08579 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:06:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cgi.sstar.com (cgi.sstar.com [204.27.72.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08554 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:05:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim.king@mail.sstar.com) Received: from jim-home (p14.sstar.com [204.27.72.46]) by cgi.sstar.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07286 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:05:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from jim.king@mail.sstar.com) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980106070533.006dfc50@mail.sstar.com> X-Sender: jim.king@mail.sstar.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 07:05:33 -0600 To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG From: Jim King Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <19067.884086103@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:28 AM 1/6/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Well, it's a new year - what do we want to do with this baby - drown >it, feed it or continue to ignore it? ;-) I'd still like to see an Alpha version of FreeBSD. After looking into NetBSD and OpenBSD (my Multia is running OpenBSD) I'd have to say that they fall short in a couple areas where FreeBSD works well for me. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 09:26:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02533 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:26:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02493 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA00710; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:25:42 -0800 (PST) To: Jim King cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jan 1998 07:05:33 CST." <3.0.2.32.19980106070533.006dfc50@mail.sstar.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:25:42 -0800 Message-ID: <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 03:28 AM 1/6/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >Well, it's a new year - what do we want to do with this baby - drown > >it, feed it or continue to ignore it? ;-) > > I'd still like to see an Alpha version of FreeBSD. After looking into > NetBSD and OpenBSD (my Multia is running OpenBSD) I'd have to say that they > fall short in a couple areas where FreeBSD works well for me. And I'm sure you're not alone in wanting to see that happen. The question here seems more to be one of who we're going to line up to actually *do* that. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 10:58:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10749 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kai.communique.net (Kai.communique.net [204.27.67.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10724 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:58:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@kai.communique.net) Received: (from smap@localhost) by kai.communique.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA00863; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:58:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801061858.MAA00863@kai.communique.net> X-Authentication-Warning: kai.communique.net: smap set sender to using -f Received: from localhost.communique.net(127.0.0.1) by kai.communique.net via smap (V2.0) id xma000856; Tue, 6 Jan 98 12:58:08 -0600 From: Jacques Vidrine To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Jim King , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> References: <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 12:58:08 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in, but the alpha mailing list seems dead :-( Jacques Vidrine On 6 January 1998 at 9:25, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > At 03:28 AM 1/6/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Well, it's a new year - what do we want to do with this baby - drown > > >it, feed it or continue to ignore it? ;-) > > > > I'd still like to see an Alpha version of FreeBSD. After looking into > > NetBSD and OpenBSD (my Multia is running OpenBSD) I'd have to say that they > > fall short in a couple areas where FreeBSD works well for me. > > And I'm sure you're not alone in wanting to see that happen. The > question here seems more to be one of who we're going to line up to > actually *do* that. :) > > Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 12:18:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17247 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:18:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17225 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:18:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09855; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:23:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199801062023.HAA09855@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jan 6, 98 09:25:42 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:23:13 +1100 (EST) Cc: jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > And I'm sure you're not alone in wanting to see that happen. The > question here seems more to be one of who we're going to line up to > actually *do* that. :) Sorry, but I *still* don't see what this achieves other than further fragmenting an already low user-base. I've said in the past that I'd like to see a FreeBSD user-space on top of a NetBSD/Alpha kernel. I know that this is not a simple task because the kernel interface differs. Clean that up and you're well on the way to supporting the other architectures that NetBSD has too. But if people put all their effort into trying to munge the i386-centric low-level kernel code to run on the Alpha it will be a long time before you even get back to where NetBSD is at the moment. So what have you achieved? Another thing that needs some effort IMHO, is keeping the device driver interface consistent between the BSD variants so that anyone can pick up a driver from one and use it on another. I'd like to see someone write a design document that defines exactly what the device driver interface is. And I don't mean example code, but something you could test for compliance against. And if you're being adventurous, try including the NetBSD design in there too. But I guess that is not the sort of thing that hackers want to do. 8-( > > Jordan > Regards, -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 12:49:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19559 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (d182-89.uoregon.edu [128.223.182.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19534 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:48:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08087; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:48:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980106124822.38411@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:48:22 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: John Birrell Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. References: <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> <199801062023.HAA09855@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199801062023.HAA09855@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Wed, Jan 07, 1998 at 07:23:13AM +1100 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Birrell scribbled this message on Jan 7: > Another thing that needs some effort IMHO, is keeping the device driver > interface consistent between the BSD variants so that anyone can pick up > a driver from one and use it on another. I'd like to see someone write > a design document that defines exactly what the device driver interface > is. And I don't mean example code, but something you could test for > compliance against. And if you're being adventurous, try including the > NetBSD design in there too. But I guess that is not the sort of thing > that hackers want to do. 8-( guess you need to read my busdevice spec... oh, I've moved locations and now it will be MUCH faster to pull... http://d182-89.uoregon.edu/~jmg/FreeBSD/busdevice.html Please read and send comments about it... I've started to expand the document on more than just the structures that it contains... personally, NetBSD started in the right direction with their bus_space code, but they never completed the project... I'm actually going to use their bus_space code without modifications (if it goes well)... but the rest of their bus code is to limiting... this will make porting existing netbsd drivers easier.. I did port netbsd's strip driver (for Metricom modems) in a few hours.. it was more problems changing the if.if_xname to our broken down version of if.if_name and if.if_unit.. also, I've noticed that nexus seems to be used a bunch in the unix world to talk about the processor bus (I know that SunOS uses it, and I think it's mentioned in BSD's config)... so is this an ideal name for the processor bus? I've been trying to think of one, but I haven't come up with one yet... thanks for the suggestions... ttyl.. -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 13:10:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21442 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:10:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21429 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09964; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:15:33 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199801062115.IAA09964@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <19980106124822.38411@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> from John-Mark Gurney at "Jan 6, 98 12:48:22 pm" To: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:15:33 +1100 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John-Mark Gurney wrote: > their bus_space code without modifications (if it goes well)... but > the rest of their bus code is to limiting... Have you tried getting the NetBSD bus-code designers to comment on this statement? If you send mail to cgd@netbsd.org saying "I like the bus-space design, but I'd like to see the rest of the bus interface design developed in this way....", I think you'll get a contructive response that will either confirm your direction or shoot the hot air out of your balloon. Who knows, you may be able to move NetBSD along too. Either way, it's a worthwhile thing to do. 8-) Regards, -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 13:25:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22981 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:25:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22976 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@CS.Duke.EDU) Received: from hurricane.cs.duke.edu (hurricane.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.1]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA14529; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by hurricane.cs.duke.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) id QAA17480; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:25:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:25:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801062125.QAA17480@hurricane.cs.duke.edu> From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <19067.884086103@time.cdrom.com> References: <19067.884086103@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We've been doing most of our systems research on Digital UNIX, but are slowly moving towards FreeBSD on Intel platforms. We're very interested in the possibility of an alpha port because we'd like to abandon Digital UNIX at some point (the licensing fees are killing us), but their hardware is still very attractive. Unfortunately, like so many others, we cannot make any serious manpower commitment at this time. Much of that manpower is currently tied up in porting our work from Digital UNIX to FreeBSD. But once that's done.. Also, I was wondering -- how's the 'vision thing' going? Have any of the basic design issues been resolved? It seems to me that the most "straightforward" way to get the ball rolling would be to do whatever it takes to fold-in the NetBSD/alpha machine-dependent portion of the kernel. Along with the NetBSD/alpha toolchain, bootloader, etc. Cheers, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Gallatin, Sr Systems Programmer http://www.cs.duke.edu/~gallatin Duke University Email: gallatin@cs.duke.edu Department of Computer Science Phone: (919) 660-6590 From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 13:42:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24512 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:42:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24501; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:42:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199801062142.NAA24501@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. To: n@nectar.com (Jacques Vidrine) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:42:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199801061858.MAA00863@kai.communique.net> from "Jacques Vidrine" at Jan 6, 98 12:58:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jacques Vidrine wrote: > > > I'm in, but the alpha mailing list seems dead :-( > > Jacques Vidrine that a symptom of the problem. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 13:48:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25263 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:48:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25235 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:48:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05766; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:47:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd005747; Tue Jan 6 14:47:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12761; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:47:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199801062147.OAA12761@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. To: jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (John Birrell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:47:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199801062023.HAA09855@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> from "John Birrell" at Jan 7, 98 07:23:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But if people put all their effort into trying to munge the i386-centric > low-level kernel code to run on the Alpha it will be a long time before > you even get back to where NetBSD is at the moment. So what have you > achieved? A unified VM and buffer cache. Binary compatability. A working install process that doesn't require a net connection and can operate off a CDROM instead for the non-Intel machines. A large user base. A reorganization of the FreeBSD kernel code to abstract some architectural problems it currently has. A base system for future research in FS and other areas. Ports and packages that don't exist for NetBSD. Symmetric Multiprocessing on non-Intel processors. And that's just a start on a much bigger list... > Another thing that needs some effort IMHO, is keeping the device driver > interface consistent between the BSD variants so that anyone can pick up > a driver from one and use it on another. I'd like to see someone write > a design document that defines exactly what the device driver interface > is. And I don't mean example code, but something you could test for > compliance against. And if you're being adventurous, try including the > NetBSD design in there too. But I guess that is not the sort of thing > that hackers want to do. 8-( NetBSD (and OpenBSD and BSDI) need to move toward a DEVFS architecture; really. FreeBSD needs to move to ELF; really. If you want to treat devices as modules, the OS's you plug them between have to be modular in the first place. No one OS has done all the work needed to make this happen. Not even one from MS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 15:03:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04493 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:03:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nomis.simon-shapiro.org (nomis.i-Connect.Net [206.190.143.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03558 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:54:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@nomis.Simon-Shapiro.ORG) Received: (qmail 25269 invoked by uid 1000); 6 Jan 1998 22:43:36 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199801062023.HAA09855@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 14:43:36 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: John Birrell Subject: Re: Alpha port.. Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, (Jordan K. Hubbard) Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Jan-98 John Birrell wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> And I'm sure you're not alone in wanting to see that happen. The >> question here seems more to be one of who we're going to line up to >> actually *do* that. :) > > Sorry, but I *still* don't see what this achieves other than further > fragmenting an already low user-base. I've said in the past that I'd > like to see a FreeBSD user-space on top of a NetBSD/Alpha kernel. > I know that this is not a simple task because the kernel interface > differs. Clean that up and you're well on the way to supporting the > other architectures that NetBSD has too. > > But if people put all their effort into trying to munge the i386-centric > low-level kernel code to run on the Alpha it will be a long time before > you even get back to where NetBSD is at the moment. So what have you > achieved? > > Another thing that needs some effort IMHO, is keeping the device driver > interface consistent between the BSD variants so that anyone can pick up > a driver from one and use it on another. I'd like to see someone write > a design document that defines exactly what the device driver interface > is. And I don't mean example code, but something you could test for > compliance against. And if you're being adventurous, try including the > NetBSD design in there too. But I guess that is not the sort of thing > that hackers want to do. 8-( Hear! Hear! A word of sanity!!! All these O/S not only claim to be Unix. They claim to be BSD Unix, while none of them can really share even source code (Yes, I know of #ifdef; That is not a common source. That is a single source text file). ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 15:35:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07757 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:35:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07722 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:35:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0xpiWX-0001IC-00; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:35:05 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id QAA07457; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:35:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801062335.QAA07457@harmony.village.org> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Alpha port.. Cc: Jim King , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:25:42 PST." <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> References: <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 16:35:28 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: : And I'm sure you're not alone in wanting to see that happen. The : question here seems more to be one of who we're going to line up to : actually *do* that. :) There is plenty of work that needs to be done too :-). I had a start at making FreeBSD cross compile under DUX, but gave up because too many tools required bsd things to compile. I'll have to give it another try under some BSD. Warner From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 16:05:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10147 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hydrogen.nike.efn.org (d182-89.uoregon.edu [128.223.182.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10105 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:04:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gurney_j@efn.org) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.nike.efn.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08604; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:04:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980106160429.52834@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:04:29 -0800 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Warner Losh Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Jim King , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. References: <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> <199801062335.QAA07457@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.69 In-Reply-To: <199801062335.QAA07457@harmony.village.org>; from Warner Losh on Tue, Jan 06, 1998 at 04:35:28PM -0700 Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney Organization: Cu Networking X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Warner Losh scribbled this message on Jan 6: > In message <707.884107542@time.cdrom.com> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > : And I'm sure you're not alone in wanting to see that happen. The > : question here seems more to be one of who we're going to line up to > : actually *do* that. :) > > There is plenty of work that needs to be done too :-). > > I had a start at making FreeBSD cross compile under DUX, but gave up > because too many tools required bsd things to compile. I'll have to > give it another try under some BSD. hmmm... I think I still have the url/address of a person who got the bsd tools (pmake and bsd's stdio) ported to SunOS and a few other platforms... I think he got it working on Digital Unix, though I'm not sure... I can dig up the address, but this was last school year, and I'm not sure if his address is still around... I still have the utils for SunOS though I don't think they will be much use to you... ttyl.. -- John-Mark Gurney Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954 Cu Networking P.O. Box 5693, 97405 Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 16:17:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11158 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:17:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10831 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA04807; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:11:52 -0800 (PST) To: Jacques Vidrine cc: Jim King , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Jan 1998 12:58:08 CST." <199801061858.MAA00863@kai.communique.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 16:11:52 -0800 Message-ID: <4804.884131912@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm in, but the alpha mailing list seems dead :-( There's nothing to talk about. :( Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 16:20:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11411 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:20:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11399 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:20:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA04890; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:19:37 -0800 (PST) To: John Birrell cc: jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Jan 1998 07:23:13 +1100." <199801062023.HAA09855@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 16:19:37 -0800 Message-ID: <4886.884132377@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sorry, but I *still* don't see what this achieves other than further > fragmenting an already low user-base. I've said in the past that I'd I don't think that any of the other *BSD/ALPHA releases would be as approachable as ours, however - have you ever tried to install NetBSD/ALPHA, for example? :-) It's definitely an exercise for the more skilled engineer, and I think that taking the ALPHA market away from NT, Digital Unix and even to a small extent Linux/ALPHA is going to take a far more concerted effort than anyone in the *BSD camp has, IMHO, exerted so far. Now if you wanted to ask the question of whether or not the FreeBSD project was capable of exerting that necessary degree effort itself, well, that would indeed be a very good question. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 19:35:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01215 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:35:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01181 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10746; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:40:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199801070340.OAA10746@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <4886.884132377@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jan 6, 98 04:19:37 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:40:21 +1100 (EST) Cc: jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I don't think that any of the other *BSD/ALPHA releases would be as > approachable as ours, however - have you ever tried to install > NetBSD/ALPHA, for example? :-) Yes I have. And I've also installed two of the other NetBSD ports. Even the lastest NetBSD/i386 install leaves a lot to be desired compared to what FreeBSD has been doing for several releases. So, yes, I agree with you. With limited resources, though, I'd like to see FreeBSD leverage what already exists and progress it instead of re-doing it. > It's definitely an exercise for the > more skilled engineer It needs a developer. The difference in approach between the FreeBSD and NetBSD organisations results in that. That's what is good about FreeBSD. But, in a way, I think that is also what is good about NetBSD. Otherwise the two groups are trying to the exact same thing. Try installing NetBSD/mvme68k! And then try building the source. It takes 3-4 days. Oh, and then the kernel takes another day. 8-) > and I think that taking the ALPHA market away > from NT, Digital Unix and even to a small extent Linux/ALPHA is going > to take a far more concerted effort than anyone in the *BSD camp > has, IMHO, exerted so far. With DEC pushing VMS, NT, DU _and_ Linux, I doubt that the *BSD camp will be able to make much of a dent in the Alpha market. To tell you the truth, I'm not really interested in that, though I recognise what popularity can do for an OS. I just want an OS that can provide me with a choice of hardware plus the features that support what I want to do. And do it at a price that lets me compete. > > Now if you wanted to ask the question of whether or not the FreeBSD > project was capable of exerting that necessary degree effort itself, > well, that would indeed be a very good question. :-) Now if FreeBSD is prepared to work to a common BSD interface that allows developers to just recompile the code and "it will work", then I'd be prepared to contribute to that. And by that I mean that I want to be able to take a stock NetBSD/Alpha system, grab the FreeBSD source tree and build a system that will run as FreeBSD on top of the NetBSD kernel. I want my application code to compile, link and run on that system just the way it did on FreeBSD/i386 with only machine architecture #ifdefs. Is anyone prepared to work at _that_? > > Jordan > Regards, -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 6 20:15:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05116 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:15:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsdserve1.comsite.net (dave@bsdserve1.comsite.net [205.238.176.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05108 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@comsite.net) Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by bsdserve1.comsite.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02356 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:02:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:02:49 -0600 (CST) From: dave To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: alpha port Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think what needs to be done is to get netbsd running freebsd binaries ok across all platforms, then get the build tools working, then build the binaries (both of these steps will probably have to be worked on concurrently)...if we can have netbsd emulating freebsd from usermode then people can be working on making the utils 64bit clean while the kernel is being worked on... also the availability of freebsd binaries on the alpha will help encourage people to work on the kernel. From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jan 7 13:09:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10435 for alpha-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:09:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from roguetrader.com (cold.org [206.81.134.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10416 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:08:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brandon@roguetrader.com) Received: from localhost (brandon@localhost) by roguetrader.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28731; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:08:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:08:21 -0700 (MST) From: Brandon Gillespie To: John Birrell cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <199801062023.HAA09855@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, John Birrell wrote: > Sorry, but I *still* don't see what this achieves other than further > fragmenting an already low user-base. Actually, doing the Alpha port seems to me like a great idea--simply because it forces FreeBSD to be 64bit clean. i386 is not going to be 32bit forever--infact isn't it going to 64bit with the Merced chip? Actually, isn't the Merced chip largely composed of alpha technology? Hmm, I have too many rumors bouncing around in my head and no substantiated facts... sorry. The rumor about its use of alpha technologies aside--I am about 99% sure that it is supposed to be true 64bit--so making FreeBSD 64bit clean simply is a good idea, regardless of what platform it ends up for. -Brandon From owner-freebsd-alpha Wed Jan 7 13:22:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11612 for alpha-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:22:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11595 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:22:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12958; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:26:39 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199801072126.IAA12958@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: from Brandon Gillespie at "Jan 7, 98 02:08:21 pm" To: brandon@roguetrader.com (Brandon Gillespie) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:26:39 +1100 (EST) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brandon Gillespie wrote: > so making FreeBSD 64bit clean simply is a good idea, regardless of > what platform it ends up for. That is true, but isn't that work required for the UltraSparc platform? Regards, -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Jan 8 16:02:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20937 for alpha-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:02:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20923 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:02:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23422; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:59:23 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:59:23 -0800 (PST) From: Curt Sampson To: John Birrell cc: gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <199801062115.IAA09964@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, John Birrell wrote: > John-Mark Gurney wrote: > > their bus_space code without modifications (if it goes well)... but > > the rest of their bus code is to limiting... > > Have you tried getting the NetBSD bus-code designers to comment on > this statement? If you send mail to cgd@netbsd.org saying.... A better thing to do would be to join the tech-kern@netbsd.org mailing list (majordomo@netbsd.org to subscribe) and discuss it there. As far as this actually happening on the FreeBSD side, I'd love to see a lot of this stuff adopted into FreeBSD, since we rely on a couple of FreeBSD folks for some of our device drivers. However, last time I chatted with David Greenman (at ISPCon in SF last August) he indicated to me that he felt that inb() and outb() were just fine for device drivers, and he saw no need for any of the bus_space stuff in NetBSD. cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Jan 8 16:05:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21227 for alpha-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21180 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA23439; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:03:32 -0800 (PST) From: Curt Sampson To: Andrew Gallatin cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <199801062125.QAA17480@hurricane.cs.duke.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Andrew Gallatin wrote: > It seems to me that the most > "straightforward" way to get the ball rolling would be to do whatever > it takes to fold-in the NetBSD/alpha machine-dependent portion of the > kernel. This pretty much brings in the rest of the kernel along with it. :-) cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Thu Jan 8 16:17:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22289 for alpha-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:17:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22248 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24048; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:15:47 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:15:46 -0800 (PST) From: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: John Birrell , jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <199801062147.OAA12761@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > So what have you achieved? > > A unified VM and buffer cache. That's coming in NetBSD this year, from the looks of it. (And yes, it's about time too, isn't it? :-)) > Binary compatability. That's already there, isn't it? And even if FreeBSD has diverged that much, it's a relatively simple matter of adding a new emulation type. > A working install > process that doesn't require a net connection and can operate off a > CDROM instead for the non-Intel machines. In fact, we'd have something near that right now if, instead of an AXPpci33, I'd had on my desk last month one of those nice 500 MHz alphas that are currently sitting idle on certain FreeBSD hackers' desks. This is not a major project. I'm not trying to say that FreeBSD wouldn't benefit from an alpha port; but the reasons above are not really good reasons to put in the kind of effort it takes to do a port. The benefit the Alpha port would provide FreeBSD would be that it will force you to have damn clean code, and will discover a hell of a lot of bugs. (I spend a great deal of my alpha hacking time fixing things someone committed on another port.) cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 11:18:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01093 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:18:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00597 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:12:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28176; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:12:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028110; Fri Jan 9 12:11:54 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA27343; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:11:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199801091911.MAA27343@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. To: cjs@portal.ca (Curt Sampson) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:11:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Curt Sampson" at Jan 8, 98 04:15:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Binary compatability. > > That's already there, isn't it? And even if FreeBSD has diverged > that much, it's a relatively simple matter of adding a new emulation > type. I meant with commercial software realeased for non-BSD OS's. > > A working install > > process that doesn't require a net connection and can operate off a > > CDROM instead for the non-Intel machines. > > In fact, we'd have something near that right now if, instead of an > AXPpci33, I'd had on my desk last month one of those nice 500 MHz > alphas that are currently sitting idle on certain FreeBSD hackers' > desks. This is not a major project. It is to get it the same across platforms. I think at least Julian's (or similar) slice stacking code is needed to do this. Both my NetBSD Alpha and my NetBSD HP/345 installs were basically done as disk images with the raw disk out there. NetBSD want's me to have an ethernet transciever to install my HP, and would prefer I have one on my Alpha to install it. Personally, I would prefer boot floppies. On the HP, because I don't have IEEE 488 devices (my Commodore PET/64 equipment doesn't count), I pretty much can't do a tape install. I think a set of uniform install methods across platforms is probably a pretty big deal. Of course, I'm willing to be proven wrong... 8-). > I'm not trying to say that FreeBSD wouldn't benefit from an alpha > port; but the reasons above are not really good reasons to put in > the kind of effort it takes to do a port. The reasons above are what FreeBSD would bring to the Alpha table (including the editted one that aren't really above). Yes, some of these duplicate what NetBSD already brings to the table. I really don't want to get into theories of organizational dynamics at this point. But there is an obvious difference in the installed user base of NetBSD vs. FreeBSD (vs. Linux -- let's be honest), and organizational dynamics is where the crux of the reasons behind the differences lies. It's not some silly explanation like "momentum" or anything like that; the BSD groups have achieved homeostasis in their problem mapping space. Suffice it to say, I think there would be more Alpha's with BSD installed if FreeBSD was ported. > The benefit the Alpha port would provide FreeBSD would be that it > will force you to have damn clean code, and will discover a hell > of a lot of bugs. (I spend a great deal of my alpha hacking time > fixing things someone committed on another port.) This is a secondary benefit, and one that will have to come out of porting effort. I don't think it's that tied to Alpha or anything else; until you try to port something, you don't resolve portability issues if you weren't designing for portability in the first place. The BSD's, even the CSRG code, really was not designed for this; NetBSD is only now, 4 years after the fact, approaching a good level of portability -- and then only for the kernel space, not the install tools or procedures. Probably the procedures are more important than the tools to implemnt them. Certainly, however, there are obvious benefits to doing a port, even if we don't agree 100% on what those benefits will be. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 12:23:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08535 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:23:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08529 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:22:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04605; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:21:18 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:21:17 -0800 (PST) From: Curt Sampson To: Terry Lambert cc: jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au, jkh@time.cdrom.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <199801091911.MAA27343@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Binary compatability. > > > > That's already there, isn't it? And even if FreeBSD has diverged > > that much, it's a relatively simple matter of adding a new emulation > > type. > > I meant with commercial software realeased for non-BSD OS's. Ah. There's already some DU compatability code in NetBSD anyway. > > [Re. install systems:] This is not a major project. > > It is to get it the same across platforms. Huh? It's much *easier* to get it the same across platforms. Most of the work on the install system has been done by i386 folks; I just have to do the alpha MD bits and test it. > Both my NetBSD > Alpha and my NetBSD HP/345 installs were basically done as disk images > with the raw disk out there.... > Personally, I would prefer boot floppies. Well free free to download the boot floppy then: ftp.netbsd.org:/pub/NetBSD/NetBSD-1.3/alpha/installation/floppy/install13.fs > I think a set of uniform install methods across platforms is probably > a pretty big deal. Indeed. That's why we have sysinst currently running on arm32, i386, pc532 and pmax, and are busy adding the MD stuff for it to other ports. Now I'll admit sysinst still needs a bunch of work to come up to the level of the FreeBSD install, but it's not rocket science. > Of course, I'm willing to be proven wrong... 8-). Is this enough? :-) > Suffice it to say, I think there would be more Alpha's with BSD > installed if FreeBSD was ported. Yes, probably. > > The benefit the Alpha port would provide FreeBSD would be that it > > will force you to have damn clean code.... > > This is a secondary benefit.... Heh. I suppose that demonstrates the differences between the FreeBSD and NetBSD camps; for NetBSD it's a primary benefit. > I don't think it's that tied to Alpha or anything > else; until you try to port something, you don't resolve portability > issues if you weren't designing for portability in the first place. It is in many ways tied to the alpha, or at least some sort of 64-bit machine. The alpha port really brings out a lot of bugs that simply don't appear when you're testing on strictly 32-bit machines. > The BSD's, even the CSRG code, really was not designed for this; > NetBSD is only now, 4 years after the fact, approaching a good level > of portability -- and then only for the kernel space, not the install > tools or procedures. Probably the procedures are more important than > the tools to implemnt them. I would disagree with that statement. The install tools are coming along nicely, and the rest of userland has come along extremely well. For most purposes, you can sit in front of an Alpha or a Sparc or an i386 running NetBSD and never tell the difference between them. > Certainly, however, there are obvious benefits to doing a port, even > if we don't agree 100% on what those benefits will be. 8-). Well, yes. As I said before, I do believe a port would be of great benefit to FreeBSD, and I certainly hope that nobody is taking this as me trying to discourage the FreeBSD folks or slam them in any way. cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 16:15:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00247 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:15:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00179 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:14:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA11666; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:13:52 -0800 (PST) To: Curt Sampson cc: Terry Lambert , jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 1998 12:21:17 PST." Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:13:52 -0800 Message-ID: <11662.884391232@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Ah. There's already some DU compatability code in NetBSD anyway. Really? Is that working again? I can think of more than one ALPHA owner who would switch to NetBSD in a heartbeat (from Linux/ALPHA) if they could only run the DUX version of Netscape. Everything I've seen on my NetBSD 1.3 sources indicates that this feature is currently disabled and broken, however. Do you know something I don't? ;-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 16:21:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01074 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01037 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:21:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA11737; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:20:18 -0800 (PST) To: Curt Sampson cc: Terry Lambert , jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 1998 12:21:17 PST." Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:20:18 -0800 Message-ID: <11733.884391618@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Indeed. That's why we have sysinst currently running on arm32, > i386, pc532 and pmax, and are busy adding the MD stuff for it to > other ports. Now I'll admit sysinst still needs a bunch of work to > come up to the level of the FreeBSD install, but it's not rocket > science. Hmmmm. I'd be interested to see the approach you guys have taken. As someone who's long been reviewing just what it would take to rip sysinstall screaming out of FreeBSD and replace it with something far better, I'm curious to see what your own design goals and methodologies are! Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 16:29:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01525 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01251 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:24:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21040; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:29:11 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199801100029.LAA21040@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <11662.884391232@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jan 9, 98 04:13:52 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:29:11 +1100 (EST) Cc: cjs@portal.ca, tlambert@primenet.com, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Really? Is that working again? I can think of more than one ALPHA > owner who would switch to NetBSD in a heartbeat (from Linux/ALPHA) if > they could only run the DUX version of Netscape. Everything I've seen > on my NetBSD 1.3 sources indicates that this feature is currently > disabled and broken, however. Do you know something I don't? ;-) I was surprised by that comment too. OSF/1 compatibility was a problem when I first started using NetBSD/Alpha. Since OSF/1 becoming DU and NetBSD/Alpha moving to ELF, I haven't seen any changes that improve that situation. [I'll admit, though, that I missed quite a few things last year. 8-)]. Regards, -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 16:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02159 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:38:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02147 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:38:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA13064; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:37:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:37:32 -0800 (PST) From: Curt Sampson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <11662.884391232@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Ah. There's already some DU compatability code in NetBSD anyway. > > Really? Is that working again? Hey, I never claimed it was *working* code. :-) We need a new pmap and a bit other other gunk; the new pmap is most likely going to wait for UVM (after all, why write it twice?) which will be coming along this summer. So all in all, we're probably a half year to a year to a year away from DU compatability. cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 16:47:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02713 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:47:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duke.cs.duke.edu (duke.cs.duke.edu [152.3.140.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02698 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:46:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gallatin@CS.Duke.EDU) Received: from hurricane.cs.duke.edu (hurricane.cs.duke.edu [152.3.145.1]) by duke.cs.duke.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20847; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gallatin@localhost) by hurricane.cs.duke.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) id TAA20664; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:46:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:46:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801100046.TAA20664@hurricane.cs.duke.edu> From: Andrew Gallatin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <11662.884391232@time.cdrom.com> References: <11662.884391232@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 20.3 "Vatican City" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > > Ah. There's already some DU compatability code in NetBSD anyway. > > Really? Is that working again? I can think of more than one ALPHA > owner who would switch to NetBSD in a heartbeat (from Linux/ALPHA) if > they could only run the DUX version of Netscape. Everything I've seen > on my NetBSD 1.3 sources indicates that this feature is currently > disabled and broken, however. Do you know something I don't? ;-) > > Jordan Its currenly festering because it only runs static binaries. It only runs static binaries because the current NetBSD/alpha pmap implementation is limited to a virtual address space of 8Gb. This prevents dynamic binaries from running because the DU /sbin/loader wants to be loaded at 0x3ff80000000. See sys/compat/osf1/README.dynamic for a much more detailed explaination. Drew From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 17:06:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04345 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:06:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynic.portal.ca (root@cynic.portal.ca [204.174.36.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04031 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost ([[UNIX: localhost]]) by cynic.portal.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA13954; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:59:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cynic.portal.ca: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:59:49 -0800 (PST) From: Curt Sampson To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Terry Lambert , jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au, jim.king@mail.sstar.com, freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <11733.884391618@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Hmmmm. I'd be interested to see the approach you guys have taken. As > someone who's long been reviewing just what it would take to rip > sysinstall screaming out of FreeBSD and replace it with something > far better, I'm curious to see what your own design goals and > methodologies are! Well, a look in src/distrib/util/sysinst should give you an idea. :-) I wouldn't necessarially say that what's there now exactly demonstrates where we want to be, though. There are at least a few developers who want to rototill the whole thing. I've not looked too closely at it myself yet, either. But it is a definite improvement over our last install system, at any rate. cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 17:12:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04817 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:12:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04807 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:12:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id SAA07399; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:09:24 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:09:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199801100109.SAA07399@narnia.plutotech.com> To: Curt Sampson cc: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971204 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As far as this actually happening on the FreeBSD side, I'd love to > see a lot of this stuff adopted into FreeBSD, since we rely on a > couple of FreeBSD folks for some of our device drivers. However, > last time I chatted with David Greenman (at ISPCon in SF last > August) he indicated to me that he felt that inb() and outb() were > just fine for device drivers, and he saw no need for any of the > bus_space stuff in NetBSD. If that was indeed David's position at the time, I think it's changed. All of bus.h as well as enough of the Bus DMA stuff to do page based bounce buffers has already been implemented and is available in the CAM SCSI layer snapshots. I should probably push to get these changes formally reviewed an put into the tree though. They aren't really CAM specific. > cjs > Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ > Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates > Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. -- Justin T. Gibbs =========================================== FreeBSD - Turning PCs into workstations =========================================== From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 17:40:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07305 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:40:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07300 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:40:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21242; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:46:36 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199801100146.MAA21242@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <199801100109.SAA07399@narnia.plutotech.com> from "Justin T. Gibbs" at "Jan 9, 98 06:09:24 pm" To: gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com (Justin T. Gibbs) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:46:36 +1100 (EST) Cc: cjs@portal.ca, alpha@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > All of bus.h as well as enough of the Bus DMA stuff to do page based > bounce buffers has already been implemented and is available in the > CAM SCSI layer snapshots. I should probably push to get these changes > formally reviewed an put into the tree though. They aren't really CAM > specific. That would be a step in the right direction IMO. Regards, -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 18:33:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10502 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10497 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12647; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:31:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801100231.SAA12647@implode.root.com> To: "Justin T. Gibbs" cc: Curt Sampson , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 1998 18:09:24 MST." <199801100109.SAA07399@narnia.plutotech.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 18:31:30 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> As far as this actually happening on the FreeBSD side, I'd love to >> see a lot of this stuff adopted into FreeBSD, since we rely on a >> couple of FreeBSD folks for some of our device drivers. However, >> last time I chatted with David Greenman (at ISPCon in SF last >> August) he indicated to me that he felt that inb() and outb() were >> just fine for device drivers, and he saw no need for any of the >> bus_space stuff in NetBSD. > >If that was indeed David's position at the time, I think it's changed. >All of bus.h as well as enough of the Bus DMA stuff to do page based >bounce buffers has already been implemented and is available in the >CAM SCSI layer snapshots. I should probably push to get these changes >formally reviewed an put into the tree though. They aren't really CAM >specific. Yeah, that wouldn't be an entirely accurate quote. What I recall saying was that 1) FreeBSD had no plans to support a large number of platforms like NetBSD does (many reasons that I'll not go into now), 2) the bus.h stuff seemed more wiz-bang complicated than I thought it needed to be for the platforms we'd likely support, 3) until we started supporting another architecture I didn't see the need to integrate the NetBSD stuff - we have many other more important things to worry about. I think I also said that it simple isn't the focus of the FreeBSD Project to be completely architecture neutral in all of our device drivers, especially when it means making performance tradeoffs to accomplish it. I realize that this is a fundamental difference in the focus and direction of the two projects and is a major reason why we've never been able to merge. Now, Justin wanted to support NetBSD in his Adaptec device driver and wanted to take on porting the NetBSD bus.h implementation as well as improve upon it. I have no problem with that (and yes, Justin and I discussed the issue at one point) and I applaud his efforts. Does this make my position any more clear? It really comes down to priorities, and until Justin needed it for easier NetBSD support, it was not a priority of anyone working on FreeBSD. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 19:10:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12615 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12565 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:09:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12988; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:08:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801100308.TAA12988@implode.root.com> To: Curt Sampson cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 1998 19:01:27 PST." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 19:08:44 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >> Does this make my position any more clear? > >Yes. Thanks. I'm aware that I might have been misinterpreting you; >it was only an oral conversation, and that was a while ago. Though Yes, and I might add that ISPCON was somewhat of a disaster for me in any case and I wasn't all that thrilled to be there (you might recall that I didn't utter a *single* word during that session I was supposed to be part of). -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 19:18:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13136 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:18:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.digital.com (mail1.digital.com [204.123.2.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12828 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:13:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cgd@pa.dec.com) Received: from dnaunix.pa.dec.com (dnaunix.pa.dec.com [16.4.208.21]) by mail1.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0c) with SMTP id TAA29095; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by dnaunix.pa.dec.com; id AA09346; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:12:14 -0800 To: Andrew Gallatin Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Chris G. Demetriou" Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 98 19:46:11 EST." <199801100046.TAA20664@hurricane.cs.duke.edu> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 19:12:12 -0800 Message-Id: <1382.884401932@dnaunix.pa.dec.com> X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Its currenly festering because it only runs static binaries. It > only runs static binaries because the current NetBSD/alpha pmap > implementation is limited to a virtual address space of 8Gb. This > prevents dynamic binaries from running because the DU /sbin/loader > wants to be loaded at 0x3ff80000000. See > sys/compat/osf1/README.dynamic for a much more detailed explaination. And I must add for posterity that it wasn't done that way simply because I'm an idiot, but rather because I wanted a working pmap "immediately," and realized that the hp300 pmap and sed would get me very, very close to what i wanted. Working, but not quite as featureful or performant as I might have wanted. Pmap in a day. 8-) Of course, I forgot to implement modify and reference bit emulation (d'oh!) and had to implement that later, but... chris From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 19:19:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13198 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critic.cynic.net (critic.cynic.net [198.73.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13165 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:19:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjs@portal.ca) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by critic.cynic.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11706; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:01:27 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: critic.cynic.net: cjs owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:01:27 -0800 (PST) From: Curt Sampson X-Sender: cjs@critic.cynic.net To: David Greenman cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-Reply-To: <199801100231.SAA12647@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, David Greenman wrote: > Does this make my position any more clear? Yes. Thanks. I'm aware that I might have been misinterpreting you; it was only an oral conversation, and that was a while ago. Though I confess I don't really see the performance issues involved. cjs Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 22:13:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24472 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:13:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24461 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:13:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24399; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:12:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801100612.XAA24399@pluto.plutotech.com> To: dg@root.com cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , Curt Sampson , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 1998 18:31:30 PST." <199801100231.SAA12647@implode.root.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:10:35 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Does this make my position any more clear? It really comes down to >priorities, and until Justin needed it for easier NetBSD support, it was >not a priority of anyone working on FreeBSD. Well I really added it for cleaner bounce buffer support, but it helps out NetBSD porting efforts too. >-DG > >David Greenman >Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project -- Justin From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 9 22:39:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25793 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:39:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25778 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:39:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA25199; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:38:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801100638.XAA25199@pluto.plutotech.com> To: Curt Sampson cc: David Greenman , "Justin T. Gibbs" , alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Alpha port.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Jan 1998 19:01:27 PST." Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:36:05 -0700 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >> Does this make my position any more clear? > >Yes. Thanks. I'm aware that I might have been misinterpreting you; >it was only an oral conversation, and that was a while ago. Though >I confess I don't really see the performance issues involved. There are six things that I changed in the bus_space/dma area when I implemented them for FreeBSD all stemming from performance issues are: 1) I made it possible for a driver to be compiled without support for all bus_space tag types. For devices that can only perform one access type, this removes the need to do any comparisions on the tag at all (at least in the x86 implementation) and the performance is exactly the same as with the old inb/outb interface. 2) For devices/configurations where no special treatment is required to setup/manage dma operations no additional space for bus dma handles is required. The client still needs to allocate space for an opaque type, that happens to be a pointer, for each handle, but that pointer will end up being NULL. 3) bus dma operations are completed through a software interrupt driven callback mechanism which allows for you to lazily allocate resources and even limit the amount of pages allocated for the bounce pool to be less than the total that might possibly be needed at one time. On my 32MB system running a tagged queuing capable ISA SCSI adapter under heavy load, I never saw even 128K of bounce pages in use at a given time. Allocating the 1MB that NetBSD does for ISA 1542 support is a waste of memory. 4) Bouncing is done on a per-page basis instead of requiring each transaction to be completely copied into a 64K chunck of contiguous memory even if only a single page requires bouncing. 5) There is a complete "inheretence tree" from root bus down to device of dma requirements so that a broken PCI device can properly specify additional restrictions on it's transfers above and beyond any imposed by it's parent bus (or the parent's, parent, etc.). 6) Bounce ranges can optionally be specified by a "filter function". This works great for devices like the early Buslogic 445S which really only need to bounce a select few pages in the system which aren't easily represented in another fashion. Even with these changes, the implementation isn't complete. It really needs to have support for generic data coalessing so that we can handle large block transfers to controllers with a shortage of SG segments (for reading large blocked tapes primarily) as well have it transparantly and effeciently handle bouncing of objects that are much smaller than a page size (like ccbs). I have ideas on how to do both of these things, some of which are partially reflected in the code I've already written, but I need to find some additional time to finish this stuff up. >cjs > >Curt Sampson cjs@portal.ca Info at http://www.portal.ca/ >Internet Portal Services, Inc. Through infinite mist, software reverberates >Vancouver, BC (604) 257-9400 In code possess'd of invisible folly. -- Justin From owner-freebsd-alpha Sat Jan 10 21:42:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17306 for alpha-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:42:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17197 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24424 for alpha@freebsd.org; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:48:09 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199801110548.QAA24424@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Bootstrapping FreeBSD/Alpha To: alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:48:09 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G'day, I've committed a bunch of changes that allow FreeBSD/Alpha to be bootstrapped from an installed NetBSD/Alpha 1.3 system. The bootstrap is not complete (after 2.5 days), but it is in a state where people who want to play can do so using source that they are familiar with. The bootstrap is not intended to clobber anything on the system you are using. It uses a modified makefile based on the -current make world, but unlike that makefile, there is no final install (yet). The bootstrap will abort long before that. 8-). The philosophy behind this bootstrap is that you start with a stock NetBSD/Alpha installation and using the FreeBSD bootstrap procedure you evolve into FreeBSD/Alpha. The system will remain a hybrid for some time due to the differences in the kernel interface. The goal is to be able to run as much of the FreeBSD user-space code as possible and then (hopefully) people will step up to the plate to take the system the extra mile. Here's a summary of what the bootstrap does: 1. Deletes a previous build if one exists. You always bootstrap from scratch. 2. Installs FreeBSD's mkdep in the temporary build tree because the one in NetBSD isn't good enough. 3. Runs NetBSD's make using FreeBSD's .mk and makefiles to build a new version of make from FreeBSD sources using NetBSD headers, installed libraries and tools. 4. Builds a FreeBSD version of find which has the -L argument that NetBSD doesn't have. This version of find doesn't support the -fstype argument because NetBSD's libc doesn't support getvfsbyname(). 5. Runs mtree like a normal build does. At this point you'll find that you need to add a few users and groups because NetBSD doesn't support as many as FreeBSD does. 6. Builds the obj tree like a normal build does. 7. Re-makes make, this time using makefiles parsed by the FreeBSD make (just in case the NetBSD one came up with a different set of build commands). 8. Builds install from the FreeBSD source because the NetBSD one doesn't know -C. 9. Builds lex like the normal build does. 10. Creates links to the GNU programs that haven't been ported. 11. Builds gperf, tsort, bison, gcc, cpp, g++ etc which are needed to build the libraries. 12. Installs the FreeBSD header files in the temporary build tree. Up to this point, all the builds have used the NetBSD make until the FreeBSD one was built. The FreeBSD source files have been pre-processed against NetBSD header files and the programs linked against NetBSD libraries. From here on, the build continues to use FreeBSD programs if they have been built and NetBSD ones otherwise. The build will only look at FreeBSD header files from this point. 13. Builds a number of the most important libraries that are needed to link the remainder of the build tools. [You can expect the bootstrap build to come to a grinding halt somewhere in here when it tries to link against NetBSD's libc and finds that the locale functions referenced by ctype.h are not there. I've started porting libc to resolve this.] 14. Builds the rest of the build tools. 15. Makes dependencies on everything. 16. Builds everythings. [And then you'd install to clobber the existing system if you got that far]. Before you use the bootstrap build, just give a thought to what you'd do if it clobbers something it shouldn't. As always, you do this at your own risk. 8-) Here's what I do: 1. Mount /usr/src from another (FreeBSD) machine. 2. Create /usr/obj with enough disk space to build. 3. cd /usr/src make -m /usr/src/share/mk buildworld 4. Sit back and wait for it to crash. If it stops before you get to the libs, I've probably missed committing something. 5. When it does stop, all of the things you've built will be in the /usr/obj/usr/src/tmp tree. They should run! Let me (and this list) know how you get on. And if anyone else wants to do part of this work, please do. Regards, -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137