From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Jan 25 11:19:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05690 for alpha-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:19:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05673; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:19:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous221.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.221]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23107; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:17:49 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA01299; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:04:13 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:04:13 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199801251804.TAA01299@panke.panke.de> From: Wolfram Schneider To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there a FreeBSD/Alpha Web page? -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-alpha Sun Jan 25 11:37:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08364 for alpha-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08344; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:37:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA16314; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:37:24 -0800 (PST) To: Wolfram Schneider cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:04:13 +0100." <199801251804.TAA01299@panke.panke.de> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:37:24 -0800 Message-ID: <16311.885757044@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not YET. [all eyes turn toward Wolfram] :) > > Is there a FreeBSD/Alpha Web page? > > -- > Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 05:04:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12691 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12672; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:04:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.12]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04113; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:58:45 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.8) id NAA18043; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:58:41 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980127135841.61631@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:58:41 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG, doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page References: <199801251804.TAA01299@panke.panke.de> <16311.885757044@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <16311.885757044@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Jan 25, 1998 at 11:37:24AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1998-01-25 11:37:24 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Not YET. [all eyes turn toward Wolfram] :) > > Is there a FreeBSD/Alpha Web page? I wrote a little page. See http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/freebsd-alpha/ -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 05:20:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14413 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:20:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eterna.binary.net (eterna.binary.net [205.183.56.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14408 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:20:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yura@matrix.binary.net) Received: from matrix.binary.net (yura@matrix.binary.net [205.183.56.2]) by eterna.binary.net (8.8.7-BN-0.05/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24069; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:21:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (from yura@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id HAA20828; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:20:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980127072011.01389@matrix.binary.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:20:11 -0600 From: Yura Socolov To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page References: <199801251804.TAA01299@panke.panke.de> <16311.885757044@time.cdrom.com> <19980127135841.61631@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <19980127135841.61631@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de>; from Wolfram Schneider on Tue, Jan 27, 1998 at 01:58:41PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Is there a FreeBSD/Alpha Web page? > I wrote a little page. See > http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/freebsd-alpha/ I hate to be the one saying this, but now, given alpha's questionable future, based on Compaq's and DEC's decision to kill any progress in favor of elite Intel's chips, do people here still generally think there is much point in continuing this port? I would personally love to see it happen, and i'm sure there will still be a lot of alpha hardware around for quite some time, but will there be any future without further development of the hardware? Compaq will continue working on alpha? Right. Please don't take this as 'you are all wasting your time doing useless stuff', i admire everyone's work here, i merely would like to hear some opinions from people who know this better. Thank you for your time. -- Yura Socolov FP: A7192ABD96E15F5 19AB21E60C34109 -- Systems Administrator, Binary Net http://www.binary.net/ -- -- "How many sysadmins does it take to manage a Zero Administration network?" -- -- a.s.r From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 05:46:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19622 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:46:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tecumseh.altavista-software.com (tecumseh.altavista-software.com [205.181.164.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19612 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 05:46:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from matt@3am-software.com) Received: from nowin (1Cust44.max4.boston.ma.ms.uu.net [153.35.71.44]) by tecumseh.altavista-software.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16540; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:46:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801271346.IAA16540@tecumseh.altavista-software.com> X-Sender: 3ampop@ranier.altavista-software.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:45:56 -0500 To: Yura Socolov From: Matt Thomas Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980127072011.01389@matrix.binary.net> References: <19980127135841.61631@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> <199801251804.TAA01299@panke.panke.de> <16311.885757044@time.cdrom.com> <19980127135841.61631@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:20 AM 1/27/98 , you wrote: >> > > Is there a FreeBSD/Alpha Web page? >> I wrote a little page. See >> http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/freebsd-alpha/ > >I hate to be the one saying this, but now, given alpha's questionable >future, based on Compaq's and DEC's decision to kill any progress in favor >of elite Intel's chips, do people here still generally think there is >much point in continuing this port? There has been no decision to kill Alpha. Why would Compaq want to lose 2+ years of marketleadership in 64-bit computing? >I would personally love to see it happen, and i'm sure there will still >be a lot of alpha hardware around for quite some time, but will there >be any future without further development of the hardware? > >Compaq will continue working on alpha? Right. Actually they will. Visualization is one area where Alpha is very strong (consider Titanic was done on Alphas). -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt/ Nashua, NH Disclaimer: I disavow all knowledge of this message From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 07:50:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08342 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:50:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kai.nectar.com (kai.nectar.com [204.27.64.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08331 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:50:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nectar@kai.nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by kai.nectar.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA26236; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:58:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801271558.JAA26236@kai.nectar.com> X-Authentication-Warning: kai.nectar.com: smap set sender to using -f Received: from localhost.communique.net(127.0.0.1) by kai.nectar.com via smap (V2.0) id xma026233; Tue, 27 Jan 98 09:58:27 -0600 From: Jacques Vidrine To: Yura Socolov cc: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page In-reply-to: <19980127072011.01389@matrix.binary.net> References: <199801251804.TAA01299@panke.panke.de> <16311.885757044@time.cdrom.com> <19980127135841.61631@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19980127072011.01389@matrix.binary.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:58:27 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm, not having seen anything but the press release of Compaq's acquisition of Digital, the first thought that popped into my head is that Compaq will be building machines around the Alpha in the future. Didn't they challenge Intel once as a member of some consortium that was rallying around the MIPS processor (called ACE maybe)? If NT r00l3z, wouldn't a company like Compaq enjoy the advantage of being able to manufacture its own CPUs for its workstations and servers? Wouldn't Compaq also like to have machines running Digital UNIX to compete in the UNIX server market, where it has no real presence other than SCO right now? Jacques Vidrine On 27 January 1998 at 7:20, Yura Socolov wrote: > > > > Is there a FreeBSD/Alpha Web page? > > I wrote a little page. See > > http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/freebsd-alpha/ > > I hate to be the one saying this, but now, given alpha's questionable > future, based on Compaq's and DEC's decision to kill any progress in favor > of elite Intel's chips, do people here still generally think there is > much point in continuing this port? > > I would personally love to see it happen, and i'm sure there will still > be a lot of alpha hardware around for quite some time, but will there > be any future without further development of the hardware? > > Compaq will continue working on alpha? Right. > > Please don't take this as 'you are all wasting your time doing useless > stuff', i admire everyone's work here, i merely would like to hear some > opinions from people who know this better. > > Thank you for your time. > > -- Yura Socolov FP: A7192ABD96E15F5 19AB21E60C34109 > -- Systems Administrator, Binary Net http://www.binary.net/ > -- > -- "How many sysadmins does it take to manage a Zero Administration network?" > -- -- a.s.r From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 08:45:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18279 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:45:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gateway.sequent.com (gateway.sequent.com [138.95.18.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18273 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:45:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seifert@sequent.com) Received: from eng4.sequent.com (eng4.sequent.com [138.95.7.64]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA12297 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (seifert@localhost) by eng4.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA28911 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801271644.IAA28911@eng4.sequent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: eng4.sequent.com: seifert@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The future of Alpha Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 08:44:47 PST From: David Seifert Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I hate to be the one saying this, but now, given alpha's questionable > future, based on Compaq's and DEC's decision to kill any progress in favor > of elite Intel's chips, do people here still generally think there is > much point in continuing this port? Palmer appariently didn't care about Alpha, Pfeiffer may feel differently. Remember that Compaq doesn't like Intel. Remember that DEC and AMD have a deal where AMD will build a x86 chip that is pin compatable with the Alpha. Presumably Compaq could build compute engines that can be either x86 or Alpha merely by changing the CPU chip and flashing the firmware. Compaq is no longer just a wintel box maker. They bought Tandem and DEC to have a full range of offerings. I think Alpha's future is a lot brighter now than it was Friday. Dave From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 10:12:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03142 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:12:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03130 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:12:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA25177; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:12:09 -0800 (PST) To: Yura Socolov cc: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:20:11 CST." <19980127072011.01389@matrix.binary.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:12:09 -0800 Message-ID: <25172.885924729@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I hate to be the one saying this, but now, given alpha's questionable > future, based on Compaq's and DEC's decision to kill any progress in favor > of elite Intel's chips, do people here still generally think there is > much point in continuing this port? It's definitely a question to be asked and considered. > I would personally love to see it happen, and i'm sure there will still > be a lot of alpha hardware around for quite some time, but will there > be any future without further development of the hardware? Probably not, no. I think it's fairly safe to say that the future of the ALPHA is bleak unless some other company purchases just this piece of the technology from Compaq. It's been known to happen, though such "comebacks" are still rare in the world of high-tech. I think the Amiga, for example, tried to return to life at least twice without much luck though that's also admittedly a completely different market. The question for me remains more of "are there enough ALPHAs out there doing especially sexy things to justify keeping the port alive as a transition aid for the next 2-3 years?" The Linux people have been crowing for some time, for example, that the special effects for the movie "Titanic" were all done on a 150 processor Linux/ALPHA farm and I'm pretty sure that there have to be ALPHAs elsewhere doing similarly high-powered tasks where Intel stuff just didn't cut it. Are these people worth trying to get on board just on the basis of what they're doing with the technology rather than just counting sheer numbers? There is certainly merit to this argument and it's just one of the many things we need to discuss. Another thing worthy of discussion is whether or not using the ALPHA as a "64 bit springboard" is something we want to do just because the ALPHA happens to be there right now and we NEED to be 64 bit clean at some point, if only to be prepared for the arrival of Intel's Merced architecture. Comments? Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 11:08:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14410 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:08:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from unix.tfs.net (as1-p34.tfs.net [139.146.210.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14403 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:08:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@unix.tfs.net) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id NAA19612; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:07:41 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199801271907.NAA19612@unix.tfs.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page In-Reply-To: <25172.885924729@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jan 27, 98 10:12:09 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:07:41 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: jbryant@unix.tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Thu Jan 1 19:03:58 CST 1998 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > > I hate to be the one saying this, but now, given alpha's questionable > > future, based on Compaq's and DEC's decision to kill any progress in favor > > of elite Intel's chips, do people here still generally think there is > > much point in continuing this port? > > It's definitely a question to be asked and considered. > > > I would personally love to see it happen, and i'm sure there will still > > be a lot of alpha hardware around for quite some time, but will there > > be any future without further development of the hardware? > > Probably not, no. I think it's fairly safe to say that the future of > the ALPHA is bleak unless some other company purchases just this piece > of the technology from Compaq. It's been known to happen, though such > "comebacks" are still rare in the world of high-tech. I think the > Amiga, for example, tried to return to life at least twice without > much luck though that's also admittedly a completely different market. > > The question for me remains more of "are there enough ALPHAs out there > doing especially sexy things to justify keeping the port alive as a > transition aid for the next 2-3 years?" The Linux people have been > crowing for some time, for example, that the special effects for the > movie "Titanic" were all done on a 150 processor Linux/ALPHA farm and > I'm pretty sure that there have to be ALPHAs elsewhere doing similarly > high-powered tasks where Intel stuff just didn't cut it. Are these > people worth trying to get on board just on the basis of what they're > doing with the technology rather than just counting sheer numbers? > There is certainly merit to this argument and it's just one of the > many things we need to discuss. Another thing worthy of discussion is > whether or not using the ALPHA as a "64 bit springboard" is something > we want to do just because the ALPHA happens to be there right now and > we NEED to be 64 bit clean at some point, if only to be prepared for > the arrival of Intel's Merced architecture. > > Comments? > > Jordan keep in mind that DEC has been moving towards pure FT and HA systems. DEC has also abandoned the VAX archetecture in favor of AXP on large systems. compaq wants to move away from intel. DEC still controls production and design of AXP, intel only manufactures them. tandem is the definition of FT systems. intel cannot even come close to the power of the 21164, much less the 21264 in either integer or FP, in fact FP still remains an etheral concept to intel. DEC will remain independant, as will Tandem, simply a term of the mergers. All three companies will benefit from the power of the AXP, the FT of Tandem, and the marketing of Compaq. Tandem has been wanting to move away from MIPS for some time now... Imagine, Tandem FT AXP systems... As for Merced, DEC and Sequent are merging DEC-Unix [OSF/1] and Dynix into a Merced port. The intel base will of course be covered. AXP has a bright future! jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 11:30:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18342 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:30:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gateway.sequent.com (gateway.sequent.com [138.95.18.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18331 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:30:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seifert@sequent.com) Received: from eng4.sequent.com (eng4.sequent.com [138.95.7.64]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA01010 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:29:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (seifert@localhost) by eng4.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA25216 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:29:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801271929.LAA25216@eng4.sequent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: eng4.sequent.com: seifert@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD/Alpha Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 11:29:26 PST From: David Seifert Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The question for me remains more of "are there enough ALPHAs out there > doing especially sexy things to justify keeping the port alive as a > transition aid for the next 2-3 years?" Is this all the FreeBSD'ers see Alpha as, a platform to use for getting FreeBSD LP64 clean while waiting for merced, not as an end in itself? This makes it sound like FreeBSD is in bed with intel? Alpha is faster, better and cheaper than intel today, and is very likely to be faster cheaper and better than merced when merced finally comes out. > The Linux people have been > crowing for some time, for example, that the special effects for the > movie "Titanic" were all done on a 150 processor Linux/ALPHA farm This is the first big money project I've heard of that depended on free software. It says that free software is ready for prime time. I see this as a big deal, a serious feather in Linux's cap. > Are these > people worth trying to get on board just on the basis of what they're > doing with the technology rather than just counting sheer numbers? Most people doing free software are interested in creating the best software they can, and aren't worried about market share. This makes it sound like FreeBSD is just the opposite. NetBSD supports a platform (ns32532 based) of which less than 200 were ever built. Clearly they aren't worried about market share. I want to run the best software on the best hardware. The best CPU today and for the forseeable future is Alpha. I hear great things about FreeBSD, but I can't try it because it doesn't support any of my platforms. -Dave From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 12:12:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29184 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29163 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:12:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25856; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:12:42 -0800 (PST) To: jbryant@unix.tfs.net cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:07:41 CST." <199801271907.NAA19612@unix.tfs.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:12:42 -0800 Message-ID: <25852.885931962@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > power of the 21164, much less the 21264 in either integer or FP, in > fact FP still remains an etheral concept to intel. Well, you should give them at least *some* credit for the i860. It's not as if no one at all inside the company had an eye on FP. :) > DEC will remain independant, as will Tandem, simply a term of the > mergers. All three Hmmm. It would still be nice to see a statement to this effect from Compaq or, better yet, a committment to selling ALPHA based machines. > AXP has a bright future! Well I hope so! I'd hate to think that my own ALPHA box is quickly destined for the same scrap-heap that swallowed my Amiga 2500, my Archimedes A540 and my pc532. :) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 12:43:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05186 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:43:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05146 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:43:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA25923; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:23:39 -0800 (PST) To: David Seifert cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:29:26 PST." <199801271929.LAA25216@eng4.sequent.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:23:39 -0800 Message-ID: <25919.885932619@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Is this all the FreeBSD'ers see Alpha as, a platform to use > for getting FreeBSD LP64 clean while waiting for merced, not > as an end in itself? This makes it sound like FreeBSD is in > bed with intel? Yes, FreeBSD *is* in "bed" with Intel in that 100% of its current installed base is there, what do you want me to say? Sometimes you have to make decisions based more on marketing reality than the pursuit of warm technical fuzzies, and I daresay there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth there at Sequent when you guys ditched the far more elegant NS32532 architecture in favor of the x86. Gosh, it almost makes it sound as if Sequent is in bed with Intel now or something! :-) > Alpha is faster, better and cheaper than intel today, and > is very likely to be faster cheaper and better than merced > when merced finally comes out. It's not so much where ALPHA is now that worries me, it's where it will be in 3-5 years. Planning ahead to position yourself where the market is now would only be like running to the station after the train had already left, and I want far more conclusive proof than your simple assertion that: 1. "it will be very likely faster cheaper and better than merced." 2. That there will even be people making machines for the commodity market based on it. It's no use having a brilliant chip if it's only used in backwater applications. > This is the first big money project I've heard of that depended > on free software. It says that free software is ready for prime > time. I see this as a big deal, a serious feather in Linux's cap. No, it only says that *some* free software is ready for prime time in a *certain* scenario. Hmmm. You either have a penchant for hyperbole in your conversational style or you are getting much better information than the rest of us. :-) Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 15:47:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14463 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:47:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gateway.sequent.com (gateway.sequent.com [138.95.18.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14389 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:47:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seifert@sequent.com) Received: from eng4.sequent.com (eng4.sequent.com [138.95.7.64]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA25140 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (seifert@localhost) by eng4.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA04112 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:46:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801272346.PAA04112@eng4.sequent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: eng4.sequent.com: seifert@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 15:46:38 PST From: David Seifert Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sometimes you have to make decisions based more on marketing reality > than the pursuit of warm technical fuzzies, and I daresay there was > much wailing and gnashing of teeth there at Sequent when you guys > ditched the far more elegant NS32532 architecture in favor of the x86. > Gosh, it almost makes it sound as if Sequent is in bed with Intel now > or something! :-) I'm not speaking for Sequent, or visa-versa. I wasn't at Sequent when they switched from ns32k to x86. (I was at Tek doing ns32k workstations.) I suspect that many of the engineers were/are unhappy. 100% of Sequent's founders came from Intel. The 386 wasn't out yet when Sequent started. > It's not so much where ALPHA is now that worries me, it's where it > will be in 3-5 years. Ever hear of a self-fullfilling prophesy? > No, it only says that *some* free software is ready for prime time in > a *certain* scenario. I didn't mean to imply that all free software was ready for all serious applications. -Dave From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 16:15:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20624 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:15:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eterna.binary.net (eterna.binary.net [205.183.56.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20565 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:15:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yura@matrix.binary.net) Received: from matrix.binary.net (yura@matrix.binary.net [205.183.56.2]) by eterna.binary.net (8.8.7-BN-0.05/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22582; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:16:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from yura@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA13315; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:15:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19980127181540.32762@matrix.binary.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 18:15:40 -0600 From: Yura Socolov To: Jacques Vidrine Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page References: <199801251804.TAA01299@panke.panke.de> <16311.885757044@time.cdrom.com> <19980127135841.61631@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19980127072011.01389@matrix.binary.net> <199801271558.JAA26236@kai.nectar.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 In-Reply-To: <199801271558.JAA26236@kai.nectar.com>; from Jacques Vidrine on Tue, Jan 27, 1998 at 09:58:27AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 27, 1998 at 09:58:27AM -0600, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > Didn't they challenge Intel once as a member of some consortium that > was rallying around the MIPS processor (called ACE maybe)? Perhaps. Don't Intel's processors account for 100% of all processors installed in Compaq's boxes though? > If NT r00l3z, wouldn't a company like Compaq enjoy the advantage of > being able to manufacture its own CPUs for its workstations and > servers? I thought Digital has sold most of its production facilities to Intel as part of that lawsuit settlement last fall? Meaning that Compaq hasn't actually acquired a lot of manufacturing units as part of this deal... > Wouldn't Compaq also like to have machines running Digital UNIX to > compete in the UNIX server market, where it has no real presence other > than SCO right now? I would doubt that. Probably it's more appealing to Compaq to be friends with the M company and their NT, and also with Intel, rather then compete with them both. So it would be easier for them to say that NT rules the world, and convince of that all those fortune 500 companies, especially given the fact that NT already runs on Alphas. Besides, NT certainly beats any given Unix, right? *g* >From the pretty extensive coverage of the deal at www.news.com, it looks to me like Compaq may be using Alpha, but only "until Intel rolls out IA-64 in 1999". Which sounds logical. And even though there are perfect application areas for alphas now, like visualization and everything, and price/performance of alphas beats any given Intel chip now, that's all there "until Intel rolls out IA-64 in 1999". Even if IA-64 is going to suck, it will all be about marketing and related areas... I hope i'm wrong. -- Yura Socolov FP: A7192ABD96E15F5 19AB21E60C34109 -- Systems Administrator, Binary Net http://www.binary.net/ -- -- "How many sysadmins does it take to manage a Zero Administration network?" -- -- a.s.r From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 16:36:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24921 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gateway.sequent.com (gateway.sequent.com [138.95.18.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24915 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seifert@sequent.com) Received: from eng4.sequent.com (eng4.sequent.com [138.95.7.64]) by gateway.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA29350 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:35:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (seifert@localhost) by eng4.sequent.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA29712 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:35:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801280035.QAA29712@eng4.sequent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: eng4.sequent.com: seifert@localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 16:35:43 PST From: David Seifert Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Don't Intel's processors account for 100% of all processors > installed in Compaq's boxes though? No. > > If NT r00l3z, wouldn't a company like Compaq enjoy the advantage of > > being able to manufacture its own CPUs for its workstations and > > servers? > > I thought Digital has sold most of its production facilities to Intel > as part of that lawsuit settlement last fall? Meaning that Compaq hasn't > actually acquired a lot of manufacturing units as part of this deal... Digital sold their (soon to be obsolete) FAB to Intel. Presumably they still have lots of non-FAB manufacturing capacity. Since Compaq and Digital have been talking about this for two years or so, I'm assuming Compaq didn't want the FAB or Digital wouldn't have sold it. > > Wouldn't Compaq also like to have machines running Digital UNIX to > > compete in the UNIX server market, where it has no real presence other > > than SCO right now? > > I would doubt that. Probably it's more appealing to Compaq to be friends > with the M company and their NT, and also with Intel, rather then compete > with them both. So it would be easier for them to say that NT rules the > world, and convince of that all those fortune 500 companies, especially > given the fact that NT already runs on Alphas. Besides, NT certainly beats > any given Unix, right? *g* Compaq wants to have a full range of computers. Tandem gave them the very high end fault-tolerant systems, Digital fills the gap between The Tandem stuff and Compaq's consumer products. Compaq needs Unix for this mission. NT can't get the job done. > Even if IA-64 is going to suck, it will all be about marketing and related > areas... What else is new? -Dave From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 17:32:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06471 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:32:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06414 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:32:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from murray@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (murray@localhost) by pike.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01927; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:24:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from murray@pike.cdrom.com) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:24:27 -0800 (PST) From: Murray Stokely To: Yura Socolov cc: Jacques Vidrine , freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page In-Reply-To: <19980127181540.32762@matrix.binary.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Yura Socolov wrote: % Perhaps. Don't Intel's processors account for 100% of all processors % installed in Compaq's boxes though? Compaq made a lot of money with the Cyrix media-gx processor in its low end boxes and just announced a ton of new desktop computers using AMD K6's instead of Intels. I believe it was something like 40% of this quarters new models were using non-intel chips. Granted they are all the lower end, less profitable models, but they are non-intel boxes none the less. Murray Stokely From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 19:53:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03018 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:53:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02968 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:53:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA29249; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:53:26 -0800 (PST) To: David Seifert cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:46:38 PST." <199801272346.PAA04112@eng4.sequent.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:53:26 -0800 Message-ID: <29245.885959606@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm not speaking for Sequent, or visa-versa. I think you missed my fundamental point. I wasn't attacking Sequent's use of the x86, I was simply trying to make it clear that one's choice of a given architecture to back can't always be made on purely technical grounds. > > It's not so much where ALPHA is now that worries me, it's where it > > will be in 3-5 years. > > Ever hear of a self-fullfilling prophesy? Ah c'mon, as if this were the customer's fault... Digital could have buggered up a wet dream when it came to marketing and properly supporting any new technology they were trying to advance, and the ALPHA was certainly no exception. The marketing and general positioning for it was classic DEC "make the wrong moves, wait until just after the last minute to finally realize this and then do too little, too late about it", and there was never a united front that I could see behind making it an easy architecture for developers to support. This is not to say that I hate Digital - far from it - just about every machine I've ever really admired came from that company. It simply vexes me that there couldn't have been a lot MORE to my dealings with such a promising company over the years, the limitations on this generally being a direct result of various shortcomings in Digital's upper-level management. Olson, for example, was openly hostile to the whole workstation concept and his "there can be Only One OS and its name is VMS" attitude hardly helped the company's Unix strategy. Palmer, in turn, seems to have spent more of his time dodging falling masonry than in trying to articulate a workstation & server software strategy, and all the while you have these various DEC IBUs wandering around essentially rudderless on the whole issue. "Are we selling hardware? Are we selling software? Is that OS in competition with us or helping us? We don't know and the people up to don't know either." Perhaps the acquisition by Compaq will result in the right kind of shakeup in DEC's management structure, I don't know. One can only hope so. Jordan From owner-freebsd-alpha Tue Jan 27 21:10:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16925 for alpha-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:10:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from unix.tfs.net (as1-p15.tfs.net [139.146.210.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16918 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:10:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jbryant@unix.tfs.net) Received: (from jbryant@localhost) by unix.tfs.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA20323; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:10:26 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Bryant Message-Id: <199801280510.XAA20323@unix.tfs.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD/Alpha Web page In-Reply-To: <19980127181540.32762@matrix.binary.net> from Yura Socolov at "Jan 27, 98 06:15:40 pm" To: yura@matrix.binary.net (Yura Socolov) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:10:25 -0600 (CST) Cc: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: jbryant@unix.tfs.net X-Windows: R00LZ!@# MS-Winbl0wz DR00LZ!@# X-files: The truth is that the X-Files is fiction X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Thu Jan 1 19:03:58 CST 1998 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In reply: > > If NT r00l3z, wouldn't a company like Compaq enjoy the advantage of > > being able to manufacture its own CPUs for its workstations and > > servers? > > I thought Digital has sold most of its production facilities to Intel > as part of that lawsuit settlement last fall? Meaning that Compaq hasn't > actually acquired a lot of manufacturing units as part of this deal... negative. intel agreed to manufacture AXPs in a settlement with DEC... The alternative could have bankrupted intel. intel has high-volume mass-production lines. this saves DEC a lot of money. both companies won in a way... DEC sued intel, not vice-versa... > > Wouldn't Compaq also like to have machines running Digital UNIX to > > compete in the UNIX server market, where it has no real presence other > > than SCO right now? > > I would doubt that. Probably it's more appealing to Compaq to be friends > with the M company and their NT, and also with Intel, rather then compete > with them both. So it would be easier for them to say that NT rules the > world, and convince of that all those fortune 500 companies, especially > given the fact that NT already runs on Alphas. Besides, NT certainly beats > any given Unix, right? *g* i think you are completely missing the point of compaq's recent diversification moves. Compaq is attempting to move in the world of business computing, enterprise servers. This is a world almost exclusively run by unix at the enterprise level, and will be for the forseeable future. nt just doesn't stack up. their acquisitions indicate a move away from winblowz and intel, and a move towards unix, and fault tolerance [guardian will remain though, but will impart technology to unix]. DEC and Sequent's move to merge and port DEC unix and Dynix for both AXP and IA-64 platforms underlines this. tandem's moves away from MIPS underlines the need for CPUs that can handle MASSIVE transaction throughput, AXP fits the bill. > >From the pretty extensive coverage of the deal at www.news.com, it looks > to me like Compaq may be using Alpha, but only "until Intel rolls out IA-64 > in 1999". Which sounds logical. DEC is not sitting with their thumbs up their ... ever hear of the 21364? neither have i; but i'm sure it will kick intel's butt again! at the rate of AXP improvement, 1999 may just be the year to expect it. > And even though there are perfect application areas for alphas now, like > visualization and everything, and price/performance of alphas beats any > given Intel chip now, that's all there "until Intel rolls out IA-64 in 1999". > > Even if IA-64 is going to suck, it will all be about marketing and related > areas... well, right now the major utilization of AXP is in enterprise servers, and their market share is expected to increase massively with DECs committment to abandon the VAX archetecture for the AXP. as for marketing, yes it will determine the desktop market for both, the large systems market will be dominated by AXP in a few years, with maybe HP and Sun being the major competitors. Keep in mind that the large systems market is dominated by primarily DEC, HP, Tandem, and IBM currently.... Compaq seems to be on a very sound course. Winblowz has it's place, compaq knows this also. I can say this though, this deal has a potential of delivering the best of both worlds. intel client machines running nt or unix, and highly reliable, fault-tolerant, massive transaction volume, enterprise servers running both unix and guardian, maybe integrating the best features of DEC unix, Dynix, and Guardian into each of the operating systems. using networked filesystems, this could seamlessly integrate into a client environment running intel and nt, while maintaining the performance and reliability of unix and guardian. this may just be the next major evolution of unix. i doubt if it will increase bill's bank account very much if at all, and may actually decrease his chances of taking over the large systems market. jim -- All opinions expressed are mine, if you | "I will not be pushed, stamped, think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!! | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Inet: jbryant@tfs.net AX.25: kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam grid: EM28pw voice: KC5VDJ - 6 & 2 Meters AM/FM/SSB, 70cm FM. http://www.tfs.net/~jbryant ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HF/6M/2M: IC-706-MkII, 2M: HTX-212, 2M: HTX-202, 70cm: HTX-404, Packet: KPC-3+ From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 30 03:56:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13685 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 03:56:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from octopus.originat.demon.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13678 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 03:56:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originat.demon.co.uk) Received: by OCTOPUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:55:17 -0000 Message-ID: From: Paul Richards To: freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD/Alpha Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:55:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org X-To-Unsubscribe: mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org "unsubscribe alpha" On Wednesday, January 28, 1998 3:53 AM, Jordan K. Hubbard [SMTP:jkh@time.cdrom.com] wrote: > This is not to say that I hate Digital - far from it - just about > every machine I've ever really admired came from that company. It > simply vexes me that there couldn't have been a lot MORE to my > dealings with such a promising company over the years, the limitations > on this generally being a direct result of various shortcomings in > Digital's upper-level management. Olson, for example, was openly > hostile to the whole workstation concept and his "there can be Only > One OS and its name is VMS" attitude hardly helped the company's Unix > strategy. Palmer, in turn, seems to have spent more of his time > dodging falling masonry than in trying to articulate a workstation & > server software strategy, and all the while you have these various DEC > IBUs wandering around essentially rudderless on the whole issue. "Are > we selling hardware? Are we selling software? Is that OS in > competition with us or helping us? We don't know and the people up to > don't know either." Vey true. > Perhaps the acquisition by Compaq will result in the right kind of > shakeup in DEC's management structure, I don't know. One can only > hope so. > Unfortunately I don't think so. All I've read over the last few days, not all relating to Compaq's aquisition, looks very bad for commercial Unix. From the press releases I've seen from Compaq the main benefit of the aquisition is Digital's support infrastructure. Digital had already shed large parts of it's corporation. The alpha chip looked doomed anyhow, the fabrication side of the business had been sold to Intel and Digital had already stated that they yould be supporting the IA-64 chip in the future. They've also sold off their networking arm as well. It looked to me at the time like they were shedding parts of the company that a prospective buyer didn't want in order to make them more attractive to said buyer. Compaq, immediately following the press release on the aquisition launched a marketing campaign for E2000, their enterprise range that is specifically targetted at ousting Unix from the corporate market. With Digital gone, that leaves Sun, HP and IBM. Only Sun are wholly dependent on Unix, the other two have a lot of NT interest. I don't think Sun's future is too sound either, they're hardware is vastly more expensive than NT hardware and these days the quality isn't significantly better. You'll find a lot of the parts inside a Sun workstation are the same as in a NT box. Solaris sucks, I actually get more done on my NT box than I do under Solaris! I think the upper management of Digital had given up trying to compete and for the last 12 months have been looking to cash in their assets. At the end of the day these people are driven by share price and for the shareholders this looks a good deal. Digital may cease to exist in any real sense but the Digital shares get converted to 0.945 Compaq shares (which says a lot about comparitive value of the companies) and the shareholders will be happy with that so therefore in business terms upper management are doing a good job. Business rarely makes technological sense, we techies would much rather see the best processor there is on every desktop running Unix but the business people don't care about the technical issues and sometimes cashing in the chips makes more business sense. I think this is the option Digital have taken. Compaq aren't interested long-term in the alpha chip or unix, what they were after was the technical support infrastructure, I suspect that in the mid to long term they will wind down the Unix side of the company in favour of NT (Digital itself was already moving this way in any case) and the alpha's future already looked bleak since it didn't look like it was going to be around after the IA-64 and the way things have panned out it looks like this was intentional. I think Digital sued Intel with the intention of clearing up loose ends before a sale and they had every intention of passing responsibilty for the alpha on to Intel so that the fabrication part of the company was out of the way for the Compaq negotiations to continue. One of the press releases I saw said that this deal had been on and off for many years and the reason Compaq had prevaricated was because they weren't interested in the bits that Digital eventually sold off. In other reports (all my reports are from CNET by the way, get lots of useful news if you subscrib to their daily mailings) it looks like Unix sales are in very serious decline. NT outsold unix by a huge margin last year (I forget the figures but you could find them at CNET I guess). It's not really a question of whether NT can do the job or not, it's a question of business. I was at Elsevier Science when they signed a five year deal with Microsoft. From what I could see it didn't have a lot to with the technical issues and had a lot more to do with share price of the respective companies. Back to the original point which has been totally lost. Is there any point to an Alpha port of FreeBSD? As with all things within FreeBSD, that's dependant upon the enthusiasm of the volunteers, very little gets done in FreeBSD because of a commercial need, whether the alpha's going to be an ongoing success isn't really relevant. If people are enthusiastic about porting FreeBSD to the alpha then it should go ahead. While this project is more successful than most it shouldn't lose it's roots as a fun place for hackers to do things they don't normally get a chance to do, porting to other architectures is certainly one of those things. Besides, increasingly I think projects like FreeBSD may have a longer term role to play in the world of computing. The big commercial players are going where the money takes them but there still will be a need for solid technical architecture that is not driven by the mass market, and for independent research platforms. FreeBSD is well placed to fill both those roles and expanding it's market to other platforms would be a very healthy thing to do. Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd. From owner-freebsd-alpha Fri Jan 30 04:40:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22019 for alpha-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:40:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from octopus.originat.demon.co.uk (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA21959 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 04:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@originat.demon.co.uk) Received: by OCTOPUS with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:39:04 -0000 Message-ID: From: Paul Richards To: "'freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: FreeBSD/Alpha Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:39:04 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-alpha@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org X-To-Unsubscribe: mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org "unsubscribe alpha" On Wednesday, January 28, 1998 3:53 AM, Jordan K. Hubbard [SMTP:jkh@time.cdrom.com] wrote: > This is not to say that I hate Digital - far from it - just about > every machine I've ever really admired came from that company. It > simply vexes me that there couldn't have been a lot MORE to my > dealings with such a promising company over the years, the limitations > on this generally being a direct result of various shortcomings in > Digital's upper-level management. Olson, for example, was openly > hostile to the whole workstation concept and his "there can be Only > One OS and its name is VMS" attitude hardly helped the company's Unix > strategy. Palmer, in turn, seems to have spent more of his time > dodging falling masonry than in trying to articulate a workstation & > server software strategy, and all the while you have these various DEC > IBUs wandering around essentially rudderless on the whole issue. "Are > we selling hardware? Are we selling software? Is that OS in > competition with us or helping us? We don't know and the people up to > don't know either." Vey true. > Perhaps the acquisition by Compaq will result in the right kind of > shakeup in DEC's management structure, I don't know. One can only > hope so. > Unfortunately I don't think so. All I've read over the last few days, not all relating to Compaq's aquisition, looks very bad for commercial Unix. From the press releases I've seen from Compaq the main benefit of the aquisition is Digital's support infrastructure. Digital had already shed large parts of it's corporation. The alpha chip looked doomed anyhow, the fabrication side of the business had been sold to Intel and Digital had already stated that they yould be supporting the IA-64 chip in the future. They've also sold off their networking arm as well. It looked to me at the time like they were shedding parts of the company that a prospective buyer didn't want in order to make them more attractive to said buyer. Compaq, immediately following the press release on the aquisition launched a marketing campaign for E2000, their enterprise range that is specifically targetted at ousting Unix from the corporate market. With Digital gone, that leaves Sun, HP and IBM. Only Sun are wholly dependent on Unix, the other two have a lot of NT interest. I don't think Sun's future is too sound either, they're hardware is vastly more expensive than NT hardware and these days the quality isn't significantly better. You'll find a lot of the parts inside a Sun workstation are the same as in a NT box. Solaris sucks, I actually get more done on my NT box than I do under Solaris! I think the upper management of Digital had given up trying to compete and for the last 12 months have been looking to cash in their assets. At the end of the day these people are driven by share price and for the shareholders this looks a good deal. Digital may cease to exist in any real sense but the Digital shares get converted to 0.945 Compaq shares (which says a lot about comparitive value of the companies) and the shareholders will be happy with that so therefore in business terms upper management are doing a good job. Business rarely makes technological sense, we techies would much rather see the best processor there is on every desktop running Unix but the business people don't care about the technical issues and sometimes cashing in the chips makes more business sense. I think this is the option Digital have taken. Compaq aren't interested long-term in the alpha chip or unix, what they were after was the technical support infrastructure, I suspect that in the mid to long term they will wind down the Unix side of the company in favour of NT (Digital itself was already moving this way in any case) and the alpha's future already looked bleak since it didn't look like it was going to be around after the IA-64 and the way things have panned out it looks like this was intentional. I think Digital sued Intel with the intention of clearing up loose ends before a sale and they had every intention of passing responsibilty for the alpha on to Intel so that the fabrication part of the company was out of the way for the Compaq negotiations to continue. One of the press releases I saw said that this deal had been on and off for many years and the reason Compaq had prevaricated was because they weren't interested in the bits that Digital eventually sold off. In other reports (all my reports are from CNET by the way, get lots of useful news if you subscrib to their daily mailings) it looks like Unix sales are in very serious decline. NT outsold unix by a huge margin last year (I forget the figures but you could find them at CNET I guess). It's not really a question of whether NT can do the job or not, it's a question of business. I was at Elsevier Science when they signed a five year deal with Microsoft. From what I could see it didn't have a lot to with the technical issues and had a lot more to do with share price of the respective companies. Back to the original point which has been totally lost. Is there any point to an Alpha port of FreeBSD? As with all things within FreeBSD, that's dependant upon the enthusiasm of the volunteers, very little gets done in FreeBSD because of a commercial need, whether the alpha's going to be an ongoing success isn't really relevant. If people are enthusiastic about porting FreeBSD to the alpha then it should go ahead. While this project is more successful than most it shouldn't lose it's roots as a fun place for hackers to do things they don't normally get a chance to do, porting to other architectures is certainly one of those things. Besides, increasingly I think projects like FreeBSD may have a longer term role to play in the world of computing. The big commercial players are going where the money takes them but there still will be a need for solid technical architecture that is not driven by the mass market, and for independent research platforms. FreeBSD is well placed to fill both those roles and expanding it's market to other platforms would be a very healthy thing to do. Paul Richards. Originative Solutions Ltd.