From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 00:22:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14985 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14980 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:22:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA13232; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:22:11 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301192208.51273@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:22:08 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: zjhh2@etsu.edu, Mark Mayo , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301173432.42499@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301182030.14942@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980301182030.14942@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 06:20:30PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 06:20:30PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > Hmmm. I see part of the raison d'être of this group as being a place > where the newbies can discuss amongst themselves. They know they can > get help from -questions if that's what they want. On the other hand, > I suppose, something should be done to avoid incorrect information > being passed around, but that should be done as gently as possible. > I don't think any other kind of unsolicted answer should come from > those "in the know". > > Sue, as long as you haven't lost interest, could you maybe be the > medium for dissemination of such corrections? Sure. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 00:29:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15365 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:29:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15360 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:29:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA13251; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:29:22 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301192918.49200@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:29:18 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:14:07PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > > >> I think that I could summarize the arguments against with "the blind > >> leading the blind". > > > > Of course it would. I don't see that as a problem, so long as nobody > > expected it to be anything else. > > Well, I suppose that's a viewpoint. What advantage do you see in the > blind leading the blind? What advantage do you you think others will > see in the blind leading the blind? Actually, blind people do a much better job of leading blind people than sighted people. They know what to tell the other person to look for, things that sighted people don't see. > >> At least in -questions you have a couple of one-eyed men. You also have a > >> number of people who can scare newbies off, sure, but that will happen > >> even if there's a newbies list. > > > > There are some people who on some occasions treat newbies badly. Sometimes > > it's by accident, sometimes of necessity. I'm not just talking about nasty > > comments. Far more common are answers which sound like a line out of the man > > page, or assume obvious things like that the person will know to restart the > > damn thing (and how to) after changing its configuration :-) > > That's a problem, all right. When I'm answering a question, I often > ask myself just what background the person has, especially if, as so > often, the message is less than informative about this background. I > generally give the person the "benefit of the doubt": I assume he > knows what he's talking about, and he just has this little problem. > If, on the other hand, they say "I'm a complete newbie, and I don't > know what the (**&* this is all about", I try to be more helpful. That's a reasonable approach, given the probabilities. But how do you think it makes people like me feel, when we join and lurk like we're supposed to, and discover that every one who asks a question understands a concise answer? > I could do this the other way around, of course. One way or another, > I'm liable to annoy somebody. And quite honestly, I'd rather annoy a > newbie who can't even read the regular postings I send every week than > a budding hacker who is liable to stay with the FreeBSD movement. If they haven't subscribed to the list or have done so in the past few days they haven't seen the weekly postings. Unless they have both an Internet connection and a working mail system, they cannot subscribe even if they do know it exists and can handle the traffic. I have read your guidelines and concluded from them that I will understand FreeBSD perfectly before I'll be able to write a perfect question. I would have bitched at you about it but saw the need to keep -questions on track was more important, and that few people took any notice anyway. If I am bamboozled by a problem, I don't know enough about the problem to give the information that is required. Indeed, if I knew those details, and realised that they were significant, most times I could solve the problem myself at that point, newbie and all. > You could, of course, cater for these people in the newbies list, like the > guy who recently wrote "Somebody told me not to run fsck on a live file > system, so I did it and my system crashed. What did I do wrong?". If you > do that [cater for these people], you get what you deserve. Nobody deserves to get nothing. Nobody is deliberately stupid. Nobody bares themselves for public scrutiny unless their need is greater than their embarrassment. It is better to ask a question badly than never ask. None of these views have a place on -questions. > Hmm. You *are* a philanthopist at heart. Just another stupid newbie :-) > > Outcomes include people living with problems rather than asking for > > help, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard, and > > sticking with FreeBSD when it's clearly too hard for them. > > Right. Of course, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard > might be the right choice. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean > people aren't out to get you. People who have glimpsed an X screen once and expect to simply install FreeBSD and use it mindlessly like sin95, but without the hangs, have a lot of things to work out. Having contact with experts only, they don't get to see the combination of effort and enjoyment that is required, so they can't make an informed choice about whether or not to persevere. After having come for all the wrong reasons, they leave for all the wrong reasons. If they can be saved, we can save them by being role models. These people can turn out to be those with most to offer in later years. If they don't want to be saved, we can at least keep them out of -questions while being frank about what they can and can't do without ever reading a manual. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 00:49:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16455 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA16450 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:49:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA16127; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:44:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:44:40 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: zjhh2@etsu.edu cc: Sue Blake , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, James wrote: > > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? > > Yes, find > ....but don't ask me how to make it do it : ) No. Perl. The answer to these questions is always perl. :) (Sure, find could be made to work, but that's only because 2K is a multiple of 512, and then you've got that less-than-two-week modification time, too). -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk (Who would be happy to provide the combination of commands he used to complete the assigned task in email :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 00:55:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16887 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net (mail1y-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.19.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA16879 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:55:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA45792; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:54:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 03:54:18 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: zjhh2@Access.ETSU.Edu, Sue Blake , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, James wrote: > > > > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > > > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? > > > > Yes, find > > ....but don't ask me how to make it do it : ) > > No. Perl. The answer to these questions is always perl. :) Dunno perl either... it is on my "to Learn" list though... but I bet I could pipe a ls -lR into a C program written using lex and yacc to parse the output... : ) I need more sleep... :) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 00:55:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA16977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA16886 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA13314; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:55:20 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301195517.41017@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:55:17 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: zjhh2@etsu.edu, Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 03:44:40AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 03:44:40AM -0500, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, James wrote: > > > > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > > > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? > > > > Yes, find > > ....but don't ask me how to make it do it : ) > > No. Perl. The answer to these questions is always perl. :) I wouldn't have a clue, but the perl documentation is easier to understand. Whatever looks baffling can be done in so many ways you're sure to find one method that makes sense :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 00:57:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17226 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:57:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17217 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:57:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA13327; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:56:55 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301195651.00534@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:56:52 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: zjhh2@etsu.edu Cc: Tim Vanderhoek , zjhh2@Access.ETSU.Edu, Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from James on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 03:54:18AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 03:54:18AM -0500, James wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, James wrote: > > > > > > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > > > > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? > > > > > > Yes, find > > > ....but don't ask me how to make it do it : ) > > > > No. Perl. The answer to these questions is always perl. :) > > Dunno perl either... > > it is on my "to Learn" list though... > > but I bet I could pipe a ls -lR into a C program written using lex and > yacc to parse the output... : ) Watch it, you don't wanna lose your newbie badge before we get started! :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 01:04:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA17829 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:04:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1y-int.prodigy.net (mail1y-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.19.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17819 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-82.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.82]) by mail1y-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA54034; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:01:49 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:01:48 -0500 (EST) From: James X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Sue Blake cc: zjhh2@Access.ETSU.Edu, Tim Vanderhoek , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net, sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301195651.00534@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 03:54:18AM -0500, James wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > > > > On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, James wrote: > > > > > > > > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > > > > > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? > > > > > > > > Yes, find > > > > ....but don't ask me how to make it do it : ) > > > > > > No. Perl. The answer to these questions is always perl. :) > > > > Dunno perl either... > > > > it is on my "to Learn" list though... > > > > but I bet I could pipe a ls -lR into a C program written using lex and > > yacc to parse the output... : ) > > Watch it, you don't wanna lose your newbie badge before we get started! :-) Hey, I am new to FreeBSD not C++... :) James > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 01:10:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18404 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp6504.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6504.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18389 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:10:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6504.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA00650; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:07:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp6504.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 04:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: zjhh2@etsu.edu cc: Tim Vanderhoek , zjhh2@Access.ETSU.Edu, Sue Blake , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, James wrote: > > > > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > > > > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? > > but I bet I could pipe a ls -lR into a C program written using lex and > yacc to parse the output... : ) Well heck, if you wanted you could hack on the actual ls(1) sources and another option, "-j": "print only files <2K from the last two weeks". :) -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 01:26:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19321 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (willow20.verinet.com [199.45.181.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19316 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:26:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04411 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:27:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:27:14 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803010927.CAA04411@const.> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Real Hackers never get defensive. This needs to be in a FAQ somewhere (if it isn't already.) Maybe even an RFC. Newbie: How am I to deal with condescending and offensive responses to my questions? FAQ: Space them. This will probably happen fifty percent of the time you make an attempt to communicate, whether or not you are correct. Make a spelling or grammar error, get your facts the slightest bit wrong or fail to read every conceivable piece of documentation remotely related to your subject and you _will_ evoke brutal feedback. The single most important thing you need to participate is a thick skin. > It's worth a try. Tell people that they can post to either list, but > they'll get more sympathetic treatment from auntie than they will on > -questions. For participants in -questions, there are expectations that a newbie may not be ready for. Using their mailer properly, or actually reading the basic documentation for starters. Perhaps a -newbies list would provide a kinder, gentler place for a thoughtful newbie to start. At least when some hot head jumps all over an amateur in -newbies, they do so knowing they are in the wrong. I am no long time expert. It wasn't too long ago that I sent messages from Netscape mailers. I learned rather quickly about the importance of line breaks, and that others might judge me on the contents of my headers. If I had had a -newbies list in which to make these initial mistakes, I may have done less damage in the process. > Right. Of course, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard > might be the right choice. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean > people aren't out to get you. I have since configured sendmail with a proper hostname and to masquerade as my ISP for proper return addresses (among other things), and learned how to use fetchmail, mail(1), fmt and ispell. Some of us _do_ pay attention, Greg. :) > What do you others think? I think you and Sue are trying to solve different problems. Sue wants a place where the poster has the right to not feel intimidated while posting thoughtful questions. You want users to read the docs, follow the conventions and ask worthwhile questions. I think -newbies will have a very bad signal to noise ratio, but the noise in newbies will be noise that didn't end up somewhere else. Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 01:33:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19777 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:33:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (willow20.verinet.com [199.45.181.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19755 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04434; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:34:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:34:01 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803010934.CAA04434@const.> To: grog@lemis.com, mark@vmunix.c, sue@welearn.com.au Subject: Re: newbies mailing list Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 01:39:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20068 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:39:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (willow20.verinet.com [199.45.181.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20063 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:39:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04456; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:39:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:39:33 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803010939.CAA04456@const.> To: grog@lemis.com, sue@welearn.com.au Subject: Re: newbies mailing list Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'd guess they're lurking. > > Greg Good guess. Al To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 02:01:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21878 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:01:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21868 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA13463; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:01:09 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980301210105.08383@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:01:05 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: allen campbell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <199803010927.CAA04411@const.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199803010927.CAA04411@const.>; from allen campbell on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:27:14AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:27:14AM -0700, allen campbell wrote: > > > Real Hackers never get defensive. > > This needs to be in a FAQ somewhere (if it isn't already.) Maybe > even an RFC. > > Newbie: How am I to deal with condescending and offensive > responses to my questions? Your humour is appreciated, but I wouldn't want to see a newbies list appear to be a reaction to bad treatment in -questions. All mailing lists have members who treat people badly. It'll probably happen more among newbies because at least the others do know better. A new list should be an enhancement, not an act of protest. If it is presented as one of a group of FreeBSD mailing lists, then I doubt anyone could see it as a reaction or try to use it in that way. > > It's worth a try. Tell people that they can post to either list, but > > they'll get more sympathetic treatment from auntie than they will on > > -questions. > > For participants in -questions, there are expectations that a newbie > may not be ready for. Using their mailer properly, or actually > reading the basic documentation for starters. And it would become easier to jump on your offeders. But hang on, I don't care about them and their problems, do I :-) > Perhaps a -newbies list would provide a kinder, gentler place for a > thoughtful newbie to start. At least when some hot head jumps all over an > amateur in -newbies, they do so knowing they are in the wrong. Hell hath no fury like a newbies' scorn. > > What do you others think? > > I think you and Sue are trying to solve different problems. Sue > wants a place where the poster has the right to not feel intimidated > while posting thoughtful questions. You want users to read the > docs, follow the conventions and ask worthwhile questions. I'm tossing around various ideas, without too strong attachment to any of them. Greg might be doing the same thing. It's confusing, but it leaves nothing hidden. I think we've pretty much agreed that a question doesn't exist until it's properly presented, and then it belongs on -questions. Newbies can and will do whatever they feel like, including but not exclusively clarifying questions which aren't yet ready for -quesitons. Some of us might even attempt to translate some of the answers :-) > I think -newbies will have a very bad signal to noise ratio, but > the noise in newbies will be noise that didn't end up somewhere > else. I think it will have a wonderful signal to noise ratio! I think it'll be all noise, and a joyful noise at that, by normal standards of signal and noise. So long as communication does happen and the environment feels positive, it will achieve most of what many people want. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 13:13:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03318 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03308 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA07257; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:43:12 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id HAA07222; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:43:12 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980302074311.09203@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:43:11 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: allen campbell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <199803010927.CAA04411@const.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803010927.CAA04411@const.>; from allen campbell on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 02:27:14AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 2:27:14 -0700, allen campbell wrote: > >> Real Hackers never get defensive. > > This needs to be in a FAQ somewhere (if it isn't already.) Maybe > even an RFC. Another case of the missed smiley? >> Right. Of course, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard >> might be the right choice. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean >> people aren't out to get you. > > I have since configured sendmail with a proper hostname and to > masquerade as my ISP for proper return addresses (among other > things), and learned how to use fetchmail, mail(1), fmt and ispell. > Some of us _do_ pay attention, Greg. :) Glad to see it :-) >> What do you others think? > > I think you and Sue are trying to solve different problems. Sue > wants a place where the poster has the right to not feel intimidated > while posting thoughtful questions. You want users to read the > docs, follow the conventions and ask worthwhile questions. I think you're missing the point. Sue and I are pretty much in sync, but of course there are a number of issues that this kind of group could address. > I think -newbies will have a very bad signal to noise ratio, but > the noise in newbies will be noise that didn't end up somewhere > else. Possibly. It was one of my concerns, but the only way we can be sure is to try it out. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 14:22:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from host1.texramp.net (root@host1.texramp.net [209.144.20.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12945 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:21:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dbell@texramp.net) Received: from lizard (dbell.texramp.net [209.144.20.197]) by host1.texramp.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA14894 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:28:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803012228.QAA14894@host1.texramp.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dana Bell" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:18:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: newbies mailing list X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK, this is the kind of thing I had in mind. Criticism welcome. > Try this quick quiz: > 1. Do you know the command to make a file that lists all the executable > files less than 2k in size that were created in the last 2 weeks? How do you want those sorted? > 2. Have you ever done something incredibly stupid? > If you answered no to the first and yes to the second, you'll be OK. What if we don't want to admit it? :) dbell@texramp.net | http://www.texramp.net/~dbell member - V A S T Right Wing Conspiracy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 22:00:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16073 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16060 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:00:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA27126; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:59:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:59:13 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [cc list trimmed] A newbies mailing list might be a good idea--the question that arises is who's going to staff it? It seems Sue has sort of been drafted....I think it will be a fairly demanding project. Here are a few points I would make: 1) It would be interesting to know what difficulties people run into with the current methods of documentation/help. To find out you'd have to a a survey of perhaps a sample of people who have bought FreeBSD on cdrom from Walnut Creek (this may be the most comprehensive list), in an effort to find out about the people who gave up as well as those who succeeded. 2) FreeBSD-questions has a rather remarkable group of people answering questions. Doug White handles lots of stuff (I assume he's still doing it, although I haven't read questions for a few months); and in specific areas, people who are especially interested in particular problems watch for questions that may indicate problems or things they should cover in the section of the handbook they've written, and so forth. Brian Sommers (that may be misspelled) handles ppp, Charles Kukulies (also misspelled, sorry) almost always responds on samba questions, Sean Kelly watches out for printing problems, and Greg Lehey handles just about everything....and so forth. This is world-class help. 3) There's also the newsgroup--Joerg Wunsch and others. 4) Finally, there's irc. On what I think is called EFNet there's #unixhelp, which is exactly where a lot of newbies need to be-- quite a few of their problems are problems with basic unix skills. (The #freebsd channel rarely has anything to do with FreeBSD or unix and is pretty useless; on the other hand #windows and #windowsnt have some participants who use FreeBSD and are pretty good. IRC is of course always problematic, but when it works, it works very well indeed.) I sometimes answer questions on #unixhelp (and ask a few, too) and it's readily apparent that some people seem to think they have a right to the time and attention of others without making any effort at all. They get slammed around a bit, and I can't say I really find it unjustified. The benefit of irc is that it's interactive, so it's possible to help people clarify their questions quite quickly. 5) I'd say the greatest weakness in FreeBSD's outreach to new users is that the process of getting some basic documents (the FAQ, the handbook) from the web site or the ftp site or the cdrom and being able to view them on screen and also print them (or a particular section) is not clear or obvious. The freebsd-doc mailing list has questions every now and then on how to do this with one or another version of MS DOS/Windows, and certainly these documents should be easy to obtain and use for people who have not yet installed FreeBSD. Nevertheless, the standard answers these people get advise using unix utilities (col -b is a favorite) that aren't on their dos/win machines. I actually don't know what a good answer might be; if I want an up-to-date copy of the FAQ or the handbook, I get the sources and make it. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 22:26:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18823 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:26:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18730 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:25:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA15827; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:25:15 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:25:12 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 09:59:13PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 09:59:13PM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > [cc list trimmed] > > A newbies mailing list might be a good idea--the question that > arises is who's going to staff it? It seems Sue has sort of been > drafted....I think it will be a fairly demanding project. Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends on how much use and how much support it gets, and a lot of things we won't know until we try. I don't see that as sufficient reason for not trying. Not yet anyway :-) > Here are a few points I would make: You made a lot of thoughtful comments about how some newbies access support, but I'm not quite sure how to relate it to the idea of the proposed mailing list. Maybe I've missed the main thrust, a common fault. Are you saying that you think the mailing list is a good or bad idea? Are you saying that there's plenty of other sources of information that are easier to provide so there's no need for a mailing list? Are you suggesting that energies would be better reserved for these existing methods? Are you seeing this in a broader context and looking at improving all of the ways in which we reach newbies as well? Are you offering to help, or suggesting that others could, and if so, how? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 22:55:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21186 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:55:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21178 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:55:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA27311; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:55:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 09:59:13PM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > [cc list trimmed] > > > > A newbies mailing list might be a good idea--the question that > > arises is who's going to staff it? It seems Sue has sort of been > > drafted....I think it will be a fairly demanding project. > > Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends on how much use and how much support it > gets, and a lot of things we won't know until we try. I don't see that as > sufficient reason for not trying. Not yet anyway :-) > > > Here are a few points I would make: > > You made a lot of thoughtful comments about how some newbies access support, > but I'm not quite sure how to relate it to the idea of the proposed mailing > list. Maybe I've missed the main thrust, a common fault. > > Are you saying that you think the mailing list is a good or bad idea? > Are you saying that there's plenty of other sources of information that are > easier to provide so there's no need for a mailing list? > Are you suggesting that energies would be better reserved for these existing > methods? > Are you seeing this in a broader context and looking at improving all of the > ways in which we reach newbies as well? > Are you offering to help, or suggesting that others could, and if so, how? I actually wasn't taking myself quite this seriously. :) However, I do think the difficulty people obviously have in accessing basic documents (FAQ, handbook) from dos/win is a matter to be addressed as a first priority--the point of sale issue. This is boring work that does not interest unix experts. It is also not something I can do anything about. I don't know if the mailing list is a good idea or not. I do not think you can expect the talent that informs freebsd=questions to read another mailing list. I think it would be interesting to see what happens. It might be informative to read it (for people interested in documentation and snagging new users) if nothing else. Greg Lehey seems to think it should be blessed by freebsd.org et.al. However, I'd be willing to host the mailing list on my computer if someone else wants to run the mailing list, i.e., handle the subscribe/ unsubscribe/bounce messages. (That person would be its owner.) I haven't done this--I have one mailing list that I handle directly--but I think I could figure it out. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 1 23:26:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24772 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:26:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24764 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:26:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA15919; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:25:48 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:25:45 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 10:55:16PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 10:55:16PM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 09:59:13PM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > [cc list trimmed] > > > > > > A newbies mailing list might be a good idea--the question that > > > arises is who's going to staff it? It seems Sue has sort of been > > > drafted....I think it will be a fairly demanding project. > > > > Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends on how much use and how much support it > > gets, and a lot of things we won't know until we try. I don't see that as > > sufficient reason for not trying. Not yet anyway :-) > > > > > Here are a few points I would make: > > > > You made a lot of thoughtful comments about how some newbies access support, > > but I'm not quite sure how to relate it to the idea of the proposed mailing > > list. Maybe I've missed the main thrust, a common fault. > > > > Are you saying that you think the mailing list is a good or bad idea? > > Are you saying that there's plenty of other sources of information that are > > easier to provide so there's no need for a mailing list? > > Are you suggesting that energies would be better reserved for these existing > > methods? > > Are you seeing this in a broader context and looking at improving all of the > > ways in which we reach newbies as well? > > Are you offering to help, or suggesting that others could, and if so, how? > > I actually wasn't taking myself quite this seriously. :) Oh :-) > However, I do think the difficulty people obviously have in accessing > basic documents (FAQ, handbook) from dos/win is a matter to be addressed > as a first priority--the point of sale issue. This is boring work that > does not interest unix experts. It is also not something I can do > anything about. Then someone needs to find someone who runs dos/win. Even better if they can sit and watch someone try to access the information to see what they do. I wouldn't have a clue about that, having never tried it myself, but I bet I could find out by asking enough newbies. > I don't know if the mailing list is a good idea or not. I do not think > you can expect the talent that informs freebsd=questions to read another > mailing list. Actually I hope they won't interfere too much! You might have missed in the backlog, it is not meant to be any kind of alternative to freebsd-questions, nor is it meant to be a place for questions to be answered. This will only work if we can enlist the support of those who know stuff to leave us to bumble along away from public scrutiny. It may generate some better-written questions. It'll also be one of the few places for someone to discover that they're not the only newbie alive. (I've seen little evidence of other newbies but they must exist) The talent can stay where it is and be there for everybody. The newbies can do their own thing without being expected to live up to everyone else's standards for every single keystroke. > I think it would be interesting to see what happens. It might be > informative to read it (for people interested in documentation and > snagging new users) if nothing else. If it's indirectly of use to people who are not newbies, that's an added bonus. I'm only interested in what it will do for the newbies, but see that in order for the non-newbies to like the idea they have to get something out of it too. There's tons of scope for that to happen. > Greg Lehey seems to think it should be blessed by freebsd.org et.al. If newbies are seen to have a need that freebsd has not addressed (or at least tried to offer), then it is only right that it be given a chance as a freebsd initiative if possible. Anything else might not look as good to those considering avenues of support as an issue in their decision making. The support avaliable for freebsd is very good, nicely centralised, and nothing should detract from that. Some newbies, however, don't quite fit through the door when it comes to the mailing list. I suspect there's quite a lot of them, but I could be wrong. Nobody knows yet. > However, I'd be willing to host the mailing list on my computer if > someone else wants to run the mailing list, i.e., handle the subscribe/ > unsubscribe/bounce messages. (That person would be its owner.) I haven't > done this--I have one mailing list that I handle directly--but I think > I could figure it out. Thanks, that's a great offer. I have majordomo and experience, but my 386 would have a hernia. Still, I don't think it's productive to consider such alternatives just now. Apart from the confusion it would create, if the newbies mailing list can be a feather in freebsd's cap, we're all winners. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 00:34:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04735 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04715 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:34:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04591; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:32:02 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:32:01 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Sue Blake , Annelise Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list Mail-Followup-To: Sue Blake , Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 06:25:45PM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi... On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 06:25:45PM +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > Then someone needs to find someone who runs dos/win. Even better if they can > sit and watch someone try to access the information to see what they do. > I wouldn't have a clue about that, having never tried it myself, but I bet I > could find out by asking enough newbies. The problem only lies in the way the text versions of the docs are produced. They have hidden control codes which are Unix only (to display nicely in more), and should really be made 7-bit clean in the build. It's fairly simple. When I started with FreeBSD I printed the entire handbook (helps to have big postscript printers around :) and read it from cover to cover, skipping things when I got bored. The postscript version should come broken down into sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if it works). That way Windows people (who know about Acrobat but not postscript) can view and print things. Printing is very important, especially in the install stage. You want to have the installation instructions clearly laid out, so you can tick off what you have done, write down what you changed, make other notes, write down error messages and information such as the IRQ for your network card... Since getting things up and running I have seldom gone back to the FAQ or Handbook (mostly only for things like porting instructions), but when looking at them on the web I find that they are broken down into bits which are too small. I'd rather have them come down in larger chunks so I can scroll up and down rather than have to move between pages. > Actually I hope they won't interfere too much! You might have missed in the > backlog, it is not meant to be any kind of alternative to freebsd-questions, > nor is it meant to be a place for questions to be answered. This will only > work if we can enlist the support of those who know stuff to leave us to > bumble along away from public scrutiny. It may generate some better-written > questions. It'll also be one of the few places for someone to discover that > they're not the only newbie alive. (I've seen little evidence of other > newbies but they must exist) The talent can stay where it is and be there > for everybody. The newbies can do their own thing without being expected to > live up to everyone else's standards for every single keystroke. Now for the real reason I wanted to reply... While reading this thread the idea of a newbie brag list entered my mind... How about making the list one where newbies are encouraged to share their success stories with the community. Messages like "hey, I managed to get my Deskjet working...", "Finally got that procmail filter up and running...", and other tasks which most old hands would do in ten seconds. Then someone with a bit more experience might respond by saying "If you do such and such it'll work quicker...", but more importantly others will start asking you questions about all sorts of related topics... There's nothing more encouraging when you are starting out than to think you're clever and ahead of the pack, and to have some "newbie" think you are a guru ;)... There would be a chance that people would ridicule the simple success stories, start religious vi vs Emacs wars ;), etc. but those could be controlled by a simple big stick. Do it once and someone "really important" (like a core team member :) beats up on you... do it twice and you can't post to the list again. Watching the success stories would also help in documenting the system, because it will soon be noticed where people struggled. It might also lead to less questions, because people will have instructions written by newbies for doing newbie things. Helping with better questions? not sure... it might take up some of the really silly questions people are to afraid to ask, like "I don't have this /usr/ports directory people keep talking about...", but there are always doing to be stupid questions and people who aren't even willing to look for answers themselves. But by positioning the list as a brag list rather than a questions list, there will be no pressure to respond to postings, so questions will go unanswered. This might maintain a separation between -newbies, -questions, and -hackers. Comments? Is this sort of what you had in mind? -Jeremy -- .sig.gz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 00:49:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06953 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:49:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06880 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:49:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08000; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:19:06 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA10424; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:19:05 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980302191905.52913@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:19:05 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Annelise Anderson , Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 10:55:16PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 22:55:16 -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > I don't know if the mailing list is a good idea or not. I do not > think you can expect the talent that informs freebsd=questions to > read another mailing list. I don't think that was the intention. The way I understand it, Sue is targetting the people who are somewhat daunted by the level of -questions, and who either lurk or just plain give up because they can't understand what's going on. Consider -questions the school and -newbies the kindergarten. > Greg Lehey seems to think it should be blessed by freebsd.org et.al. > However, I'd be willing to host the mailing list on my computer if > someone else wants to run the mailing list, i.e., handle the subscribe/ > unsubscribe/bounce messages. (That person would be its owner.) I haven't > done this--I have one mailing list that I handle directly--but I think > I could figure it out. I think things like this work much better if they're handled in a uniform manner. I don't think that anybody would begrudge the CPU power it takes to run a list like this, and a "private" list is more likely to be overlooked. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 02:20:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17741 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:20:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17735 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id CAA28219; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:16:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:16:01 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Jeremy Lea cc: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list In-Reply-To: <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Now for the real reason I wanted to reply... While reading this thread the > idea of a newbie brag list entered my mind... > > How about making the list one where newbies are encouraged to share their > success stories with the community. Messages like "hey, I managed to get my > Deskjet working...", "Finally got that procmail filter up and running...", > and other tasks which most old hands would do in ten seconds. Then someone > with a bit more experience might respond by saying "If you do such and such > it'll work quicker...", but more importantly others will start asking you > questions about all sorts of related topics... There's nothing more > encouraging when you are starting out than to think you're clever and ahead > of the pack, and to have some "newbie" think you are a guru ;)... Aha, a newbie-"brag'n bitch" list! Perfect. Y'know when I got into this stuff I just knew a few unix commands that I'd learned from Kroll's Whole Internet book, and it was a little confusing because you couldn't tell if the 1's were l's or vice versa. Not a good t ype face. I'd been reading the newsgroup but when an answer said "man cron" I didn't know what that meant. I knew there were these things called man pages, but I didn't know how to read them. And isn't that just too damn bad. :( :( :(( AA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 02:37:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20046 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:37:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA16315; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:35:25 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980302213522.52802@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:35:22 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Jeremy Lea Cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za>; from Jeremy Lea on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 10:32:01AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 10:32:01AM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote: > Hi... > > On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 06:25:45PM +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > Then someone needs to find someone who runs dos/win. Even better if they can > > sit and watch someone try to access the information to see what they do. > > I wouldn't have a clue about that, having never tried it myself, but I bet I > > could find out by asking enough newbies. > > The problem only lies in the way the text versions of the docs are produced. > They have hidden control codes which are Unix only (to display nicely in > more), and should really be made 7-bit clean in the build. It's fairly > simple. What? How on earth could something like that get through? > When I started with FreeBSD I printed the entire handbook (helps to have big > postscript printers around :) and read it from cover to cover, skipping > things when I got bored. The postscript version should come broken down into > sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be > converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if it > works). With ghostscript? That's the first I've heard of it. > That way Windows people (who know about Acrobat but not postscript) > can view and print things. I know a lot of windows people who don't know about acrobat, haven't got the reader, and can't easily get it now that it's become a monster. For the ones who do have it, a PDF would be useful. A Word document would be the most accessible of all for windows users, but useless to DOS users. Everyone can read and print plain text. > Printing is very important, especially in the > install stage. You want to have the installation instructions clearly laid > out, so you can tick off what you have done, write down what you changed, > make other notes, write down error messages and information such as the IRQ > for your network card... I never had the luxury of a printed copy, but I've used the HTML versions a lot. > Since getting things up and running I have seldom gone back to the FAQ or > Handbook (mostly only for things like porting instructions), but when > looking at them on the web I find that they are broken down into bits which > are too small. I'd rather have them come down in larger chunks so I can > scroll up and down rather than have to move between pages. I would have agreed with you before I downgraded to a 386. The larger pages take forever to load in lynx. But it hasn't been a big issue. > Now for the real reason I wanted to reply... While reading this thread the > idea of a newbie brag list entered my mind... Yep, it'd be nice if that was its main use. > Watching the success stories would also help in documenting the system, > because it will soon be noticed where people struggled. It might also lead > to less questions, because people will have instructions written by newbies > for doing newbie things. And writing instructions is a good way to consolidate learning, especially if feedback comes from peers rather than gods. > Helping with better questions? not sure... it might > take up some of the really silly questions people are to afraid to ask, like > "I don't have this /usr/ports directory people keep talking about...", but > there are always doing to be stupid questions and people who aren't even > willing to look for answers themselves. Actually, I don't have a problem with new people who are not willing to look things up. They simply have more problems than the people who do try to help themselves, and need more guidance, including the chance to learn the importance of using documentation and how to access it. It's not always their fault. They've been using software that strongly discourages the kind of behaviour that they're going to need, and nobody's told them different. I find it very difficult to see why these people with more problems than the others should be denied a chance to learn about their second problem, let alone why they should be made to feel small because they're following their old do-the-right-thing techniques. They need help to appreciate the new learning environment, not to be punished for not recognising it immediately. Newbies are expected to know so much that does not relate directly to freebsd that someone has to tell them how to do the other stuff too, without confusing lack of these skills with lack of access to freebsd help. Don't punish them for being lazy until it's very clear that they know what's required and why. > But by positioning the list as a brag list rather than a questions list, > there will be no pressure to respond to postings, so questions will go > unanswered. This might maintain a separation between -newbies, -questions, > and -hackers. Of course it'll be used as a brag list, and whatever else is wanted by the people who it is for. It will also be used for whatever might not be suitable for -questions, either before or (hopefully not) after the event. Most importantly, it'll be a place where newcomers can feel valued, right from their first welcome. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 03:05:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22985 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:05:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22967 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:05:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA16341; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:46:54 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980302214652.41899@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:46:52 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 02:16:01AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 02:16:01AM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > Aha, a newbie-"brag'n bitch" list! Perfect. > > Y'know when I got into this stuff I just knew a few unix commands that I'd > learned from Kroll's Whole Internet book, and it was a little confusing > because you couldn't tell if the 1's were l's or vice versa. Not a good t > ype face. [..] Oh no!! Now you'll all be hang'n out for a newbies-nostalgia list of your own. Not fair, I say, not fair! Pssst! Got any more stories? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 03:47:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:47:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050ndd.san.rr.com (root@dt050ndd.san.rr.com [204.210.31.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27385 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:47:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (dougdougdougdoug@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050ndd.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA11690; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:47:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <34FA9C54.777800CE@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 03:47:32 -0800 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE-0228 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Annelise Anderson CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Annelise Anderson wrote: [lots of snippage] > A newbies mailing list might be a good idea--the question that > arises is who's going to staff it? It seems Sue has sort of been > drafted....I think it will be a fairly demanding project. Projects like this tend to go better with a group of people to share the load. I'd be more comfortable with a small set of individuals handling leadership for the new list personally. That way people who aren't comfortable with a particular strong personality in a leadership role will feel more comfortable about participating. > Here are a few points I would make: > > 1) It would be interesting to know what difficulties > people run into with the current methods of documentation/help. For my money you can't emphasize this point highly enough. > 2) FreeBSD-questions has a rather remarkable group of > people answering questions. > 3) There's also the newsgroup--Joerg Wunsch and others. Agreed. > 4) Finally, there's irc. On what I think is called EFNet That's the largest IRC network, and one of the more chaotic ones. > there's #unixhelp, which is exactly where a lot of newbies need to be-- > quite a few of their problems are problems with basic unix skills. (The > #freebsd channel rarely has anything to do with FreeBSD or unix and is > pretty useless; There is a fair deal of kibitzing going on in there, but I've found the folks in efnet #freebsd to be knowledgable and helpful to those willing to help themselves. > IRC is of course always > problematic, but when it works, it works very well indeed.) Well, I like to think so. :) There is a #freebsd channel on dalnet that is usually staffed and has a good crew of friendly people. If anyone is interested in starting a new channel for freebsd newbies or some such, dalnet has a lot of advantages including channel and nickname services that provide stability and continuity sometimes lacking in other networks. Then again, I'm prejudiced. :) I'd be happy to offer assistance to anyone interested in a project like this. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 04:25:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04170 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04103 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [192.168.0.81]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03258; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:14:51 GMT Message-ID: <34FAA2BC.44C52F83@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:14:52 +0000 From: stuart henderson Reply-To: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> <19980302213522.52802@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be > > converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if > > it works). > > With ghostscript? That's the first I've heard of it. There's a supplied ps2pdf script which invokes it with -sDEVICE=pdfwrite. Yes, it works, quite nice if you have to read manpages on a Windows machine. Making a .pdf of the handbook etc. would probably be very helpful for Windows users, using the current structure it's not very easy to download the whole lot to read off-line. Or a zip of all the html files (preferably with the extension .htm, yes it's ugly but at least it'll work better in Win3 :-) Word (or RTF) format is probably more useful in the long term but the converter's already there for PDF. And, bizarrely enough, some people don't use the internet although Word format would probably be even more useful... Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 04:41:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA06631 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA06625 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:41:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [192.168.0.81]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04505 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:39:07 GMT Message-ID: <34FAA86E.83980562@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:39:10 +0000 From: stuart henderson Reply-To: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Netscape Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I read this in the TBTF mailing list (copy at http://www.tbtf.com/archive/03-02-98.html) and thought I'd copy it here for anyone that might be interested. --cut here-- ..Netscape crypto easily boosted to full strength An Australian doing business as Fortify.net [5] is distributing a program for Unix and Win-32 (containing no crypto code) with which anyone can convert their export copy of Netscape Navigator into a US-strength, 128-bit version. Netly News coverage [6] paints the Feds pacing and gnashing their teeth over the development, which breaks no laws. At the Financial Cryptography conference in An- guilla, attendees ran a contest for the most compact perl code to effect this transformation ("Run this on your export version of netscape 4.04 to enable strong crypto!"). Ian Goldberg, who through his connection with the conference sports the world's coolest email address -- n@ai -- posted a 99-byte essay, only to be trumped by a Russian programmer who shaved it by 15 bytes. The result: #!/usr/bin/perl -0777pi s/(TS:.*?0)/$_=$1;y,a-z, ,;s, $,true,gm;s, 512,2048,;$_/es; [5] http://www.fortify.net/ [6] http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1767,00.html --cut here-- (Search the executable file for "SSL2-RC4-128-EXPORT40-WITH-MD5." and change the "false" and "conditional" entries in the export policy table to "true"). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 04:55:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08259 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:55:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050ndd.san.rr.com (root@dt050ndd.san.rr.com [204.210.31.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08254 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:55:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (dougdougdougdoug@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050ndd.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11893; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 04:54:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <34FAAC0B.9933BA70@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 04:54:35 -0800 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE-0228 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list (and other ways to improve user help) References: <19980301181929.41719@welearn.com.au> <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 09:59:13PM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > [cc list trimmed] > > > > A newbies mailing list might be a good idea--the question that > > arises is who's going to staff it? It seems Sue has sort of been > > drafted....I think it will be a fairly demanding project. > > Perhaps, perhaps not. It depends on how much use and how much support it > gets, and a lot of things we won't know until we try. I don't see that as > sufficient reason for not trying. Not yet anyway :-) I think you're underestimating the importance of having a fairly concrete plan of action with definable goals. You are going to have to overcome a great deal of resistance to get this off the ground, and if it fails due to poor planning the failure will be held up for years to come as a reason not to try again. > > Here are a few points I would make: > > You made a lot of thoughtful comments about how some newbies access support, > but I'm not quite sure how to relate it to the idea of the proposed mailing > list. Maybe I've missed the main thrust, a common fault. As tempting as it is to respond to this directly, I'll let it pass. :) However, without my speaking for annelise you have missed a major point. A more important question than "do we need a newbie mailing list?" is "why do we *think* we need a newbie mailing list, and could the conditions that lead to this feeling be better addressed in other ways?" > Are you saying that you think the mailing list is a good or bad idea? Why are you assuming that she was speaking directly to your issue? I don't intend to sound hostile, however I think you've focussed your goals too narrowly. You want a newbie mailing list, and since you have this hammer in your hand, every problem looks like a nail. Personally I see a number of problems related to this idea. Not the least of which is that one of the basic tenets of providing user help is having a single point of entry. Splitting the entry level help between -newbies and -questions will only lead to confusion and frustration. "But freebsd-newbies will not be a help list." Ok, then what will it be? The main thing I've heard from Sue is that it should be a place where newbies are "comfortable," and "valued." These are extremely difficult goals to accomplish with a mailing list. At the same time, what we have now is far from perfect. Although I rarely see people actively mistreated on any freebsd list, I have seen answers that are less than helpful (if not flat out wrong). Also, the documentation on the www and ftp sites is rather overwhelming and lacks a coherent vision. For example, let's take one of the most common questions on -questions. Q: I want to install freebsd but I went to the ftp site and I can't figure out what to download. At first glance this looks like pure laziness on the part of the newbie. However a quick once over on the ftp site shows that there isn't a clear entry point. The README file in the root directory spends most of its time talking about mirror sites. There are several documents in the sundry directories that talk about how, when, where and why, but they don't talk about what. This problem could be solved by adding a paragraph to the README file like this: What To Download: ----------------- Most of you will want to download the 2.2.5-Stable distribution. It contains the most up to date.... blah. For those interested in a little adventure, you might want to give the 3.0-Current distribution a try.... blah. If you need updated bits for an older 2.1.x installation you will find them in the 2.1.7.1-Release directory.... blah. The www site does a lot better in this regard, and it's improved a lot in the 2 years that I've been around. The fact that people can't seem to find the help they need there is proof of the fact that most people actually *are* lazy. :) The people on efnet #freebsd are sometimes perceived as unhelpful because they tell people to go read the documentation. (D'oh!) This leads to another important point to keep in mind. Unix *is* in fact a difficult thing to learn. One of the things that makes it that way is that unix knowledge is very interdependent. You need to know X to learn Y, but you can't learn X till you learn Q, and Q won't give up its favors till you've teased H into submission... etc. This gets very frustrating for new people. In fact, it frustrates the jeebers out of me sometimes. :) Therefore, the person who is going to be successful with unix has to be highly self motivated. The flip side to this is that you gain a tremendous feeling of accomplishment from the achievements you do succeed in. Whether the one balances out the other is purely a matter of personal judgment. :) Giving people a forum to express their joy in accomplishment would probably be a good thing. Whether we need a new list for that or not is still open to debate. I think a better goal would be to make a consistent effort to improve the facilities that we have available already. Annelise made an excellent point in her previous post. As good as they are, our user help facilities need some work. I would like to make the following proposals. 1. A recognition on the part of the core team that there are improvements to be made. One of the most frequent responses I've received to my suggestions in this regard was that what we have works. Well, *sometimes* there are historical reasons for "The Way Things Are" that I don't understand and am happy to learn. More often (in my opinion) institutional lethargy works against change, with "They'll catch on if they try hard enough" attitude as a justification. There is a balance needed of course, as I made the case for above. However, if freebsd is going to grow and flourish, the needs of new (and sadly microsoft-indoctrinated) users are going to have to be addressed. 2. We need people to analyze and provide solutions for the areas where we currently lack. There has been some progress in this regard, there needs to be more. Someone needs to analyze what's coming into -questions and make suggestions for things to add to the FAQ and/or Handbook. A lot more of this has been happening recently, and that's a good thing. 3. Education for the folks in -questions. We have a lot of skilled helpers on the -questions mailing list. Sometimes this works to a disadvantage because those who might be able to provide simple answers to simple questions are sometimes scared away from doing so. We need to increase the cultural acceptance of both low level questions and good low level answers. More education about what constitutes a good answer, and how to ask good questions is also in order. (Kudos to Greg for his herculean efforts in this regard. :) I don't see any reason this can't happen on -questions, and it would have a lot of benefits. Finally, I don't want my comments to be taken as overly negative or critical. Things are improving, but we also have a ways to go. I am not categorically opposed to the idea of a newbie mailing list, but I don't think the need has been proven yet, nor the parameters and goals adequately defined. I hope this is of use, Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 05:40:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:40:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14359 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:40:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA16652; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:40:06 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980303004002.42687@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:40:02 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Studded Cc: Annelise Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <34FA9C54.777800CE@san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <34FA9C54.777800CE@san.rr.com>; from Studded on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 03:47:32AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 03:47:32AM -0800, Studded wrote: > Annelise Anderson wrote: > > [lots of snippage] > > A newbies mailing list might be a good idea--the question that > > arises is who's going to staff it? It seems Sue has sort of been > > drafted....I think it will be a fairly demanding project. > > Projects like this tend to go better with a group of people to share > the load. I'd be more comfortable with a small set of individuals > handling leadership for the new list personally. That way people who > aren't comfortable with a particular strong personality in a leadership > role will feel more comfortable about participating. It'd be nice to see those people emerge from the newbies group itself, but it'd be even nicer if newbies who could handle sharing some of the load would come forward in advance. I'm not holding my breath. > > 4) Finally, there's irc. On what I think is called EFNet > > That's the largest IRC network, and one of the more chaotic ones. Now I don't feel so bad about spending an evening last week trying in vain to find and attend a meeting that was being held there :-) > > IRC is of course always > > problematic, but when it works, it works very well indeed.) > > Well, I like to think so. :) There is a #freebsd channel on dalnet > that is usually staffed and has a good crew of friendly people. If People say things like that to me all the time, but if you're not into IRC it's baffling. I've never been sufficiently motivated to read through all the jargon and tricks in order to learn how to use it properly, but I'd encourage any moves to provide help to IRC-loving newbies. Information about how to access help through IRC is one of the things a newbies list could provide. Doug, I've read your next email and it seems you're still catching up with the discussion and throwing comments in while the ideas are fresh. That's fine, but it might be a little early to respond to them. Let me just clarify that I'm not trying to solve all support problems, or all newbies problems. I'm trying to focus on one thing. If the discussion leads people to want to work on other things that's great, but I'm not going to have time to be sidetracked. I don't think anyone needs to feel threatened by the prospect of newbies taking over, obscuring the existence of others, sucking up all the resources for their own purposes, preferring the company of their own kind, or telling everyone else what others should want and deserve. Even newbies can see that there is a place for everyone if and only if we all appreciate our diversity and cooperate to achieve common goals. Give them a safe forum where they can be proud of what they are and you might be pleasantly surprised to see what they become. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 07:12:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25478 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:12:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25442 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:11:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-152.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.152]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA101652; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:11:40 GMT Message-ID: <34FACBAF.64F22764@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:09:35 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Sue - Many of us were newbies recently enough to _still_ consider ourselves in that group. I enjoy answering questions I understand [ somewhat ;\ ], and I get a lot of good stuff from the -questions list, but I wouldn't sign up for YAML. I think the key is to not be embarrassed to ask anything. If you'll check back in your recent core memory, I think you'll find that the only ones who've gotten battery acid replies were the dinks who asked stupid questions about W9x drivers, or those who couldn't be bothered to immortalize good spelling, or those whose questions were more than slightly acidic in the first place. I am amazed at how lively, pertinent and vitally useful -questions is. Compared to almost any other list I frequent, the signal-to-noise is extremely high. I 'third' the search-archive problem. Improvement is necessary there, although the hiccuping hub.freebsd disk may be somewhat to blame. Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 07:21:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26651 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:21:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26646 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:21:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-152.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.152]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA23536; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:21:19 GMT Message-ID: <34FACDF2.30C3FB99@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:19:14 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au> <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301170435.11729@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org By the way, Sue - I thought your assistance to Greg in proofing his book was _very_ pertinent and useful. I hope we don't lose you from -questions! Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 07:41:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA28822 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:41:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28814 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:41:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05086; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:40:00 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199803021540.MAA05086@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? In-Reply-To: <19980224161837.54158@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Feb 24, 98 04:18:37 pm" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:40:00 -0300 (EST) Cc: paulg@interlog.com, roberto.nunnari@agie.ch, freebsd-chat@hub.FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org #define quoting(Eivind Eklund) // FreeBSD is presently in the process of integrating Kirk McKusick's // Soft Updates code, which will give the same (actually, sometimes // better) performance without removing safe recovery. Is there an URL with more info on osft updates ? What is it ? How will it affect performance, etc. ? Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 07:50:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA00397 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:50:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA00378; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:50:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05913; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:49:40 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199803021549.MAA05913@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? In-Reply-To: <199802170645.IAA22620@greenpeace.grondar.za> from Mark Murray at "Feb 17, 98 08:45:48 am" To: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:49:40 -0300 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ahasty@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org #define quoting(Mark Murray) // Greg Lehey wrote: // > It seems to me that in the last couple of months the number of // > hard-to-read mail messages has significantly increased. I've come to // // I have noticed a large increase in this as well; // // o Not quoting the original message, just supplying an out-of context // answer. Put Amancio Hasty in this list ! :) (I had to say that, I had to say that !!!!!!!! :) ) Sometimes I have problems to understand the context in his messages. Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 08:03:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01384 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13646; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:00:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199803021600.LAA13646@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? In-Reply-To: <199803021540.MAA05086@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis at "Mar 2, 98 12:40:00 pm" To: jonny@coppe.ufrj.br (Joao Carlos Mendes Luis) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:00:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: eivind@yes.no, paulg@interlog.com, roberto.nunnari@agie.ch, freebsd-chat@hub.freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joao Carlos Mendes Luis said: > #define quoting(Eivind Eklund) > // FreeBSD is presently in the process of integrating Kirk McKusick's > // Soft Updates code, which will give the same (actually, sometimes > // better) performance without removing safe recovery. > > Is there an URL with more info on osft updates ? What is it ? How > will it affect performance, etc. ? > Much of the time, when people might say "Linux is faster than FreeBSD", it is likely a manifestation of the conservative filesystem metadata update policy of FreeBSD. This is (and don't let nay-sayers try to convince you otherwise) a carefully considered and wise policy on the part of the original BSD development group. There is an innovative mechanism as described in a research report by Ganger and Patt (sp???). Recently, Kirk McKusick did a full implementation of such, with the benefit of a consistant filesystem without the conservative (slow) metadata policy. This code that Kirk wrote was over 100K of source to implement this metadata update policy, and frankly is faster than our async (unsafe) metadata policy, and nearly as safe (modulo data loss), as our conservative policy. With any async write policy, you can/will loose data upon power loss or system failure. The problem with async write policies beyond that data loss is the destruction of meta-data on disk, and the possibility of filesystem damage that can't be correctly repaired by fsck. The filesystem might look repaired, but really isn't. This new (soft update) mechanism keeps the filesystem metadata safe (and is provably repairable, unless there is a severe hardware malfunction), while giving the performance of async mounts (actually is better.) This thing IS an innovation, and was implemented by Dr. Kirk McKusick, who originally wrote/designed FFS, upon which alot of the U**X filesystem work has been based (including EXT2FS.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 10:34:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:34:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18382 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0y9a2K-00069g-00; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:34:00 +0200 Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? In-Reply-To: <199803021600.LAA13646@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 2, 98 11:00:26 am" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:34:00 +0200 (SAT) Cc: marcus@vue.co.za X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Johann Visagie Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John S. Dyson wrote: > > Much of the time, when people might say "Linux is faster than FreeBSD", > it is likely a manifestation of the conservative filesystem metadata > update policy of FreeBSD. This is (and don't let nay-sayers try to > convince you otherwise) a carefully considered and wise policy on the > part of the original BSD development group. [ rest of filesystem discussion deleted ] My apologies for posting a somewhat unrelated followup to this thread... Is there any specific reason why ext2fs would be inefficient at handling large files (on the order of 1 meg and upwards to a few hundred megabytes)? We're doing some development which results in very large blobs of binary data being bandied about, and I couldn't help but notice that FreeBSD machines constantly seem to outperform higher specced Linux machines when doing arbitrary file and directory manipulations (moving, removing, etc.) on these large files, or even when merely accessing these files repeatedly. Sometimes the difference is more than an order of magnitude. -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 15:23:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (ehp-2.mail.demon.net [193.195.0.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13378 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:22:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from james@jraynard.demon.co.uk) Received: from jraynard.demon.co.uk ([158.152.42.77]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa0226263; 2 Mar 98 23:12 GMT Received: (from james@localhost) by jraynard.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.6.12) id XAA17408; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:11:24 GMT Message-ID: <19980302231123.21564@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:11:23 +0000 From: James Raynard To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fwd: A Guide to Software Revisions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is something I saw at work today. It seemed quite apt in view of the arguments about the next release... -------------------------- Forwarded message -------------------------- A Guide to Software Revisions Once you start playing with software you quickly become aware that each software package has a revision code attached to it. It is obvious that this revision code gives the sequence of changes to the product, but in reality there's substantially more information available through the rev code than that. This e-mail provides a guide for interpreting the meaning of the revision codes and what they actually signify. 1.0: Also known as "one point uh-oh", or "barely out of beta". We had to release because the lab guys had reached a point of exhaustion and the marketing guys were in a cold sweat of terror. We're praying that you'll find it more functional than, say, a computer virus and that its operation has some resemblance to that specified in the marketing copy. 1.1: We fixed all the killer bugs ... 1.2: Uh, we introduced a few new bugs fixing the killer bugs and so we had to fix them, too. 2.0: We did the product we really wanted to do to begin with. Mind you, it's really not what the customer needs yet, but we're working on it. 2.1: Well, not surprisingly, we broke some things in making major changes so we had to fix them. But we did a really good job of testing this time, so we don't think we introduced any new bugs while we were fixing these bugs. 2.2: Uh, sorry, one slipped through. One lousy typo error and you won't believe how much trouble it caused! 2.3: Some jerk found a deep-seated bug that's been there since 1.0 and wouldn't stop nagging until we fixed it!! 3.0: Hey, we finally think we've got it right! Most of the customers are really happy with this. 3.1: Of course, we did break a few little things. 4.0: More features. It's doubled in size now, by the way, and you'll need to get more memory and a faster processor ... 4.1: Just one or two bugs this time ... Honest! 5.0: We really need to go on to a new product, but we have an installed base out there to protect. We're cutting the staffing after this. 6.0: We had to fix a few things we broke in 5.0. Not very many, but it's been so long since we looked at this thing we might as well call it a major upgrade. Oh, yeah, we added a few flashy cosmetic features so we could justify the major upgrade number. 6.1 ? -----End of forwarded message----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 15:39:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18233 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:39:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050ndd.san.rr.com (root@dt050ndd.san.rr.com [204.210.31.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18035 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:38:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (dougdougdougdoug@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050ndd.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01687; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:38:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <34FB42E9.284874EC@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:38:17 -0800 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE-0302 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <34FA9C54.777800CE@san.rr.com> <19980303004002.42687@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: [snippage] > Doug, I've read your next email and it seems you're still catching up with > the discussion and throwing comments in while the ideas are fresh. That's > fine, but it might be a little early to respond to them. Your assumption is incorrect. In fact, I read all of the posts in the thread and thought carefully about them before I replied. Please don't assume that because I haven't reached the same conclusion you have that I don't adequately understand the topic. > Let me just clarify that I'm not trying to solve all support problems, or > all newbies problems. I'm trying to focus on one thing. If the discussion > leads people to want to work on other things that's great, but I'm not going > to have time to be sidetracked. Yes, I think you've identified what I perceive to be a fairly substantial problem. You want a newbies mailing list. You want to focus your attention on that goal to the exclusion of all else, including the discussion regarding whether or not that is the best way to help new users. In an attempt to avoid further confusion, let me state explicitly what I attempted to say tactfully in my previous letter. I think your narrow mindedness regarding this issue is dangerous, and I think that you could end up doing more harm than good by providing a superficial "solution" to what is actually a very important part of the FreeBSD project. > I don't think anyone needs to feel threatened by the prospect of newbies > taking over, I don't think anyone does. In the abscence of evidence to the contrary I will avoid categorizing your attempt to attribute the arguments of those who have valid disagreements with your perspective as ignorance and fear to malice on your part. I will instead assume that your zeal to accomplish your goal has clouded your judgement. As it turns out, not only do I have a lot of experience providing end user support both in person and over the internet, I actually get paid to do it. I will avoid further tooting of my own horn, and would like to have avoided it altogether except that I think it will help serve to dispel the notion that I don't actually understand the topic at hand. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 16:30:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28412 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:30:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28325 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:29:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08976; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:59:43 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA14047; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:59:43 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980303105942.57041@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:59:42 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> <19980302213522.52802@welearn.com.au> <34FAA2BC.44C52F83@internationalschool.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <34FAA2BC.44C52F83@internationalschool.co.uk>; from stuart henderson on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 12:14:52PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 12:14:52 +0000, stuart henderson wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: >>> sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be >>> converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if >>> it works). >> >> With ghostscript? That's the first I've heard of it. > > There's a supplied ps2pdf script which invokes it with > -sDEVICE=pdfwrite. Yes, it works, quite nice if you have to read > manpages on a Windows machine. Interesting. > Making a .pdf of the handbook etc. would probably be very helpful for > Windows users, using the current structure it's not very easy to > download the whole lot to read off-line. Or a zip of all the html files > (preferably with the extension .htm, yes it's ugly but at least it'll > work better in Win3 :-) Word (or RTF) format is probably more useful in > the long term but the converter's already there for PDF. A caveat: I tried doing this with the print image of "The Complete FreeBSD". Here are the sizes of the .ps and the .pdf files: -rw-r--r-- 1 grog lemis 36091997 Feb 18 09:59 /home/Book/FreeBSD/Chapter/complete/book.ps -rw-r--r-- 1 grog bin 203221187 Mar 3 10:17 /var/tmp/book.pdf I also find that xpdf gives a much worse rendition of the pdf version than ghostview does of the ps version, but this may be just the tools. At least the printed version seems to be identical. > And, bizarrely enough, some people don't use the internet > although Word format would probably be even more useful... What's "Word format"? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 16:45:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29771 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29749 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:45:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15081; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:44:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803030044.TAA15081@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs. Linux ? In-Reply-To: from Johann Visagie at "Mar 2, 98 08:34:00 pm" To: wjv@cityip.co.za (Johann Visagie) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:44:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, marcus@vue.co.za X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Johann Visagie said: > John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > Much of the time, when people might say "Linux is faster than FreeBSD", > > it is likely a manifestation of the conservative filesystem metadata > > update policy of FreeBSD. This is (and don't let nay-sayers try to > > convince you otherwise) a carefully considered and wise policy on the > > part of the original BSD development group. > > [ rest of filesystem discussion deleted ] > > My apologies for posting a somewhat unrelated followup to this thread... > > Is there any specific reason why ext2fs would be inefficient at handling > large files (on the order of 1 meg and upwards to a few hundred megabytes)? > > We're doing some development which results in very large blobs of binary data > being bandied about, and I couldn't help but notice that FreeBSD machines > constantly seem to outperform higher specced Linux machines when doing > arbitrary file and directory manipulations (moving, removing, etc.) on these > large files, or even when merely accessing these files repeatedly. Sometimes > the difference is more than an order of magnitude. > I don't know, but my guess is it might be because of the indexing method used for file data. Also, our file/VM cache mgmt policy is not the usual one. That policy is designed to be high performance under actual high load conditions, while sacrificing some performance under low load conditions. The system does try to adapt automatically, but there are some things due to algorithmic complexity that will make FreeBSD appear to be slower in lightly loaded applications. Cache and memory management schemes sometimes do not perform in an intuitive fashion. Of course, under low load conditions, you don't always need quite as much performance :-). So, for server and heavily loaded workstation applications, I think that we made the right tradeoffs and generally maximized the spectrum of applications where FreeBSD is useful. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 20:50:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02510 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02501 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA02751; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:44:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:44:04 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Greg Lehey cc: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) In-Reply-To: <19980303105942.57041@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > What's "Word format"? > Greg? Serious? "Word" format is probably the most common format (and word processor) in use in the target market. I used to keep WordPerfect around for guests so they could print their documents, and I still have it. But now I keep Microsoft Word around. (Whatever IBM markets with Lotus 123 and Notes is probably also fairly common.) Rich Text Format is, I think, the ultimate solution--both MS Word and WordPerfect handle an rtf document produced from sgml well. The problem with sgml is that conversion to rtf is available only for sgml documents in docbook, not in the linuxdoc style. At least this was the case a few months ago. I think the FAQ and handbook will be available in docbook/sgml before very long, though. Both Word and WordPerfect can also handle the "ascii" version of documents that arrive with ctrl-H codes in them, although making this conversion is something most users of these programs probably don't know how to do (nor do they know they can do it). But it's not really very difficult. In testing whether the other text editors and word processing programs that come with MS Windows of one variety or another (dos edit, notepad, wordpad, write) can handle the FAQ and the handbook, the size of the document has to be kept in mind-- I think the handbook is too big for these programs. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 20:51:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02694 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:51:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02680 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:51:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA09231; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:19:47 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA15238; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:19:47 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980303151946.59136@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:19:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Annelise Anderson Cc: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <19980303105942.57041@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 08:44:04PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 20:44:04 -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> What's "Word format"? No. I wish I were. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 20:58:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03945 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:58:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (willow14.verinet.com [199.45.181.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03927 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:58:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11558; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:41:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:41:07 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> To: grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What's "Word format"? Microsoft Word format. The de-facto standard word processor format. Typically has the extension .doc. Converts readily to RTF. IMHO, HTML is the best choice for this documentation. HTML is accessible from nearly everywhere, space efficient and by definition, hypertext. About the only place where accessing HTML might be a challenge is DOS. This is offset by the fact that nearly all contemporary formats are no easier (ps, pdf, Word, rtf, etc) to get at from DOS (I don't need to be reminded that it IS possible.) Microsoft has recognized the simple elegance of HTML is it's own help system. If a plain text version is necessary for ease of printing and access where a browser isn't available, use the existing SGML tools to produce HTML and text from one base. This will also integrate nicely with the existing FreeBSD documentation structure. This wheel has already been invented. Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 2 21:10:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05647 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05639 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:10:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA02863; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:02:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:02:16 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Greg Lehey cc: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) In-Reply-To: <19980303151946.59136@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 20:44:04 -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> What's "Word format"? > > No. I wish I were. > > Greg Sorry. I should have know. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 01:08:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:08:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA04984 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:08:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA03749; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:04:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:04:34 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: allen campbell cc: grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) In-Reply-To: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, allen campbell wrote: > IMHO, HTML is the best choice for this documentation. HTML is I think HTML is great for reading on the screen (with Netscape or Internet Explorer) and printing. But the handbook comes in 340 or so HTML pieces. It is in this condition useless to me, although I know other people like this sort of thing. So I usually read a latin1 version with "less," if there's something I need to look at. John Fieber suggested once breaking the handbook into chapters (he had 22 sections; 6 or 8 appealed to me) but the chapters were available only on his server. I printed out the copy of the handbook that came with 2.0.5 (it was ascii and had no control codes like ^H in it) using a little dos program called pcbook.exe. This is one of those programs that makes booklets; you take the paper out of the Laserjet and turn it over and print the other sides, and then fold it, and it gets the page numbers right. Actually I still use this version of the handbook because it's convenient, even though it's out of date. > If a plain text version is necessary for ease of printing and access > where a browser isn't available, use the existing SGML tools to > produce HTML and text from one base. This will also integrate > nicely with the existing FreeBSD documentation structure. This > wheel has already been invented. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 01:21:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07811 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07757; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:21:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06680; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:20:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803030920.BAA06680@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis cc: mark@grondar.za (Mark Murray), grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ahasty@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:49:40 -0300." <199803021549.MAA05913@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 01:20:23 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don't worry many of my messages are not meant to be understood rather evoke a feeling , reaction and who knows to trigger a thought . Now if I can just apply the latter to myself I should be all set 8) Cheers, Amancio > #define quoting(Mark Murray) > // Greg Lehey wrote: > // > It seems to me that in the last couple of months the number of > // > hard-to-read mail messages has significantly increased. I've come to > // > // I have noticed a large increase in this as well; > // > // o Not quoting the original message, just supplying an out-of context > // answer. > > Put Amancio Hasty in this list ! :) > > (I had to say that, I had to say that !!!!!!!! :) ) > > Sometimes I have problems to understand the context in his messages. > > Jonny > > -- > Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br > +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br > Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI > PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 02:10:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14185 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic4.pm02.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA14129 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:10:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id CAA08694; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:10:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19980303021013.27656@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:10:13 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Annelise Anderson Cc: allen campbell , grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 01:04:34AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 01:04:34AM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, allen campbell wrote: > > > > IMHO, HTML is the best choice for this documentation. HTML is > > I think HTML is great for reading on the screen (with Netscape or > Internet Explorer) and printing. But the handbook comes in 340 or so > HTML pieces. It is in this condition useless to me, although I know > other people like this sort of thing. So I usually read a latin1 > version with "less," if there's something I need to look at. > > John Fieber suggested once breaking the handbook into chapters (he > had 22 sections; 6 or 8 appealed to me) but the chapters were > available only on his server. > > I printed out the copy of the handbook that came with 2.0.5 (it was > ascii and had no control codes like ^H in it) using a little dos > program called pcbook.exe. This is one of those programs that makes > booklets; you take the paper out of the Laserjet and turn it over and > print the other sides, and then fold it, and it gets the page numbers > right. Actually I still use this version of the handbook because it's > convenient, even though it's out of date. > [ DELETED ] It is in fact very easy to produce a postscript version of either the FAQ or the handbook. Just cd in the directory with the sgml source and sgmlfmt -f ps [handbook|FAQ].sgml And out comes a postscript file. When I print a copy of the handbook I go looking for a HP laser printer that can print on both sides. It's really nice if you have a pack of pre-drilled laser paper. Josef "Killing trees" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 02:54:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21217 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:54:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21205 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [192.168.0.81]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20326 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:51:53 GMT Message-ID: <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 10:51:55 +0000 From: stuart henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > IMHO, HTML is the best choice for this documentation. HTML is > accessible from nearly everywhere, space efficient and by definition, > hypertext. > If a plain text version is necessary for ease of printing and access > where a browser isn't available, use the existing SGML tools to > produce HTML and text from one base. At the moment, it's not very easy to get at the handbook or FAQ offline until FreeBSD is installed. It would probably be more useful for many people to be able to read it first - certainly in countries where phone calls have to be paid for, online reading isn't a very sensible option. I think at the very least, there should be a (preferably .zip) archive of the HTML versions for offline reading. A printable version as well would be nice: .ps is not a very good choice because very few people in the Windows world know about ghostscript - RTF/Word/PDF all have the advantage of being printer-independent and usable on a reasonably standard configuration. Plain text is so simple that it will probably confuse most people used to Windows software (who I imagine will load it into a WP, which will re-render it in variable width and quite likely munge things so that when they try to print it from the WP, which I am sure they will do!, the page numbers don't tally with the pages). You can't expect a lot of them to consider printing it directly until *after* they've used UNIX for a while (bearing in mind that a lot of people these days won't even have seen a C:\> prompt). :-) :-) Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 03:33:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25814 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:33:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA25808 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA19564; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:33:29 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980303223327.16588@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:33:27 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Studded Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list References: <34FA9C54.777800CE@san.rr.com> <19980303004002.42687@welearn.com.au> <34FB42E9.284874EC@san.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <34FB42E9.284874EC@san.rr.com>; from Studded on Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 03:38:17PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 02, 1998 at 03:38:17PM -0800, Studded wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > [snippage] > > > Doug, I've read your next email and it seems you're still catching up with > > the discussion and throwing comments in while the ideas are fresh. That's > > fine, but it might be a little early to respond to them. > > Your assumption is incorrect. In fact, I read all of the posts in the > thread and thought carefully about them before I replied. Please don't > assume that because I haven't reached the same conclusion you have that > I don't adequately understand the topic. Nope. Now that it's clear you haven't missed anything we can be content to disagree. > > Let me just clarify that I'm not trying to solve all support problems, or > > all newbies problems. I'm trying to focus on one thing. If the discussion > > leads people to want to work on other things that's great, but I'm not going > > to have time to be sidetracked. > > Yes, I think you've identified what I perceive to be a fairly > substantial problem. You want a newbies mailing list. You want to focus > your attention on that goal to the exclusion of all else, including the > discussion regarding whether or not that is the best way to help new > users. In an attempt to avoid further confusion, let me state explicitly > what I attempted to say tactfully in my previous letter. That was tact?? Style noted for future reference. > I think your narrow mindedness regarding this issue is dangerous, and I > think that you could end up doing more harm than good by providing a > superficial "solution" to what is actually a very important part of the > FreeBSD project. What is it you're referring to here, general support? My aim is not to address that. I don't know enough to. And sure, if I were narrowminded and dangerous I might be the last to see it. All I can do is restate that what I and some other newbies want is our own space. Our own space. I'm too stupid to understand why that's so hard to make you understand. Somehow I can't find a way to ask for it without making everyone else feel slighted. Sorry, but it is very hard to stand up and ask and I'm just doing the best I can. > > I don't think anyone needs to feel threatened by the prospect of newbies > > taking over, > > I don't think anyone does. In the abscence of evidence to the contrary > I will avoid categorizing your attempt to attribute the arguments of > those who have valid disagreements with your perspective as ignorance > and fear to malice on your part. I will instead assume that your zeal to > accomplish your goal has clouded your judgement. > > As it turns out, not only do I have a lot of experience providing end > user support both in person and over the internet, I actually get paid > to do it. I will avoid further tooting of my own horn, and would like to > have avoided it altogether except that I think it will help serve to > dispel the notion that I don't actually understand the topic at hand. I only save a few answers from -questions that make sense and will be useful, and a lot of them are from you. Yes, I'm well aware of your skills and willingness to use them. It saddens me that you and people like you might take this attempt to get a newbies mailing list up as a negative comment on the level of support. It is most definitely not. It's not about you, it's about us. I can't argue with any more of what you've said. We've heard each other's points of view but we don't seem to agree on much. Maybe that's because I'm naive and selfish and narrow-minded and can't see it from your more realistic perspective. How would I know. You have lots more knowledge than me, lots more experience, and have done more for others. Alongside you, nothing I can say has equal weight. You may reply, but I'm gonna feel pretty mute in this environment. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 03:54:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27166 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:54:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net ([207.86.132.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27159 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:54:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: from stratos.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by myname.my.domain (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA00476; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:48:46 GMT Message-Id: <199803030548.FAA00476@myname.my.domain> To: Amancio Hasty cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 01:20:23 PST." <199803030920.BAA06680@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 05:48:45 +0000 From: drifter Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> // Greg Lehey wrote: >> // > It seems to me that in the last couple of months the number of >> // > hard-to-read mail messages has significantly increased. I've come to >> // >> // I have noticed a large increase in this as well; >> // >> // o Not quoting the original message, just supplying an out-of context >> // answer. Just my two cents worth: You want to talk about hard to read messages? What about people's addictions to TLAs? (Three Letter Abbreviations) I mean, come on now... I can understand a BTW now and then, but all this business with YMMV, IMO (or IMHO), or AFAIK, or WEAC2M (Whatever Acronym Comes to Mind) is ridiculous. It took me some time to get AFAIK -- but that's not by far the worse of it. Seriously, some people over do it, and it can be aggravating trying to translate these things people think make them look clever. Some of them are so weird I can't remember them off the top of my head (and it's too early, anyway, IMO !!!!) Please, for the LOVE OF GOD, lose the capital abbreviations!!! A public service for vi users: (put in ~/.exrc, and go nuts) :abbrev IMHO in my humble opinion :abbrev YMMV your milage may vary :abbrev AFAIK and for all I know :abbrev BTW by the way :abbrev 4TLOG for the love of God :abbrev ppl people You get the idea :) JM2CW... drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 04:21:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA01418 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:21:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mph124.rh.psu.edu (mph@MPH124.rh.psu.edu [128.118.126.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA01407; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:21:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@mph124.rh.psu.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by mph124.rh.psu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24485; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:21:04 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980303072055.41082@mph124.rh.psu.edu> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:20:56 -0500 From: Matthew Hunt To: Satoshi Asami Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports INDEX References: <199803031107.DAA15043@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803031107.DAA15043@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Satoshi Asami on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 03:07:01AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 03:07:01AM -0800, Satoshi Asami wrote: > We have 1,303 ports now. According to our purely scientific analysis, > port #1,300 is DavidO's dnswalk. Congratulations, DavidO! ("Please stay > on the line and we'll get your address so we can send you the special > 70's hits CD performed by the portsmaster himself.") Since I submitted the dnswalk port, can I receive "Portmaster's Greatest Hits of the 80's Come Alive at Red Rocks"? Ever since reading a review of your "99 Luftballons", I've been eager to get my paws on a copy. -- Matthew Hunt * Think locally, act globally. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 04:34:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02695 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:34:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02688 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 04:34:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA19681; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:34:05 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980303233403.50961@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:34:03 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What is fortune anyway? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After my last post here I logged in as root and was told: What is worth doing is worth the trouble of asking somebody to do. Does fortune know more than it's letting on? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 06:19:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14615 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA14608; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:19:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamesh@etsu.edu) Received: from localhost (jamesh@slip166-72-245-53.tn.us.ibm.net [166.72.245.53]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA50806; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:14:54 -0500 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:14:49 -0500 (EST) From: "James H. Higgins" X-Sender: jamesh@localhost Reply-To: zjhh2@etsu.edu To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: What is fortune anyway? In-Reply-To: <19980303233403.50961@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > After my last post here I logged in as root and was told: > What is worth doing is worth the trouble of asking somebody to do. > > Does fortune know more than it's letting on? Sometime I wonder.. :) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 06:51:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20130 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:51:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20122; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:51:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-55.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.55]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA06564; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:51:05 GMT Message-ID: <34FC186A.C060643B@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 06:49:14 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: zjhh2@etsu.edu CC: Sue Blake , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jhhiggins@prodigy.net Subject: Re: What is fortune anyway? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James H. Higgins wrote: > > On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > > After my last post here I logged in as root and was told: > > What is worth doing is worth the trouble of asking somebody to do. > > > > Does fortune know more than it's letting on? > > Sometime I wonder.. :) > > James > Maybe the Doug White program let loose a stray pointer... =--> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 07:31:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27030 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:31:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27004 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04178; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:30:49 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <34FC2229.51688ECB@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:30:49 -0700 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drifter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: TLAs! (Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail?) References: <199803030548.FAA00476@myname.my.domain> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You want to talk about hard to read messages? What about people's > addictions to TLAs? (Three Letter Abbreviations) Absolutely. I find myself just deleting messages containing what I consider too many abbreviations, and my tolerance is low. I used to be a pretty high-volume USENET reader and poster back in the late 80's ... but I don't recall seeing abbreviations in such multitudes then (and I don't think I subscribed to your more literate newsgroups either). Once I found myself searching the web to find out what IIRC could possibly mean. It's "if I recall correctly". If I recall correctly? As far as I know? In my (humble) opinion? Everyone: merely saying X implies that X is your opinion or comes from your nonperfect memory. You're not saving bandwidth by using abbreviations! --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 08:41:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07274 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inetserver.mpainc.com ([198.246.145.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07235 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:41:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from RickSiple@mpainc.com) Received: by INETSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:41:10 -0500 Message-ID: <6150EE893AC3D011A3360020AFF799985F85@INETSERVER> From: Rick Siple To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: newbies mailing list Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:41:08 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Wilde [SMTP:dwilde1@ibm.net] > Sent: Monday, March 2, 1998 10:10 AM > To: Sue Blake > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: newbies mailing list > > Hi, Sue - > Many of us were newbies recently enough to _still_ consider > ourselves > in that group. I enjoy answering questions I understand [ somewhat ;\ > ], > and I get a lot of good stuff from the -questions list, but I wouldn't > sign up for YAML. > > I still consider myself a part of the newbie group as well and thought > I would post a few of my own observations. > > I think the key is to not be embarrassed to ask anything. > [...] > On this note I can say that I put an exceptional amount of > thought into the messages I send to questions (all three of the > questions). Basically, it is just because I don't want to look like > an idiot. I have a bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering so I > consider myself to be a fairly intelligent individual, but I am still > intimidated by the more experienced members on the lists. I don't > know how to solve the problem, but I would hate to see the user base > become divided as the members of the proposed newbies list gain more > experience but perhaps fail to migrate to the original lists because > they are more comfortable where they are. > > I 'third' the search-archive problem. Improvement is necessary > there, > although the hiccuping hub.freebsd disk may be somewhat to blame. > > I've experienced this myself. The major problem seems to be > that the messages are not threaded. If NNTP articles were used > instead of simple SMTP messages could the indexing engine be setup to > allow navigation of threads instead of individual messages? Sometimes > the article that mentions the keyword is the question and the > answering articles did not quote the keyword. Following threads on > the mailing lists as they occur can be just as difficult as persons > respond to earlier postings and create multiple threads. > I can't be the first person to have thought of this and I can > think of more than one technical difficulty. First, a news reader is > more difficult to setup for the end user. Second, I don't know if the > freely available NNTP servers can handle private newsgroups > (newsgroups sourced specifically by freebsd.org). Third, if any of > the software can do private lists, can it also perform access control > to keep newbies from accidentally posting to the technical lists. > Also, the indexer would have to be changed to handle threaded > articles, etc..... > > I'll stop babbling, as this has probably been hashed out before. > > -Rick Siple > RickSiple@MPAInc.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 08:49:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09457 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:49:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09443 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:49:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01528; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:49:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199803031649.LAA01528@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? In-Reply-To: <199803030548.FAA00476@myname.my.domain> from drifter at "Mar 3, 98 05:48:45 am" To: drifter@stratos.net (drifter) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:49:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org drifter said: > > >> // Greg Lehey wrote: > >> // > It seems to me that in the last couple of months the number of > >> // > hard-to-read mail messages has significantly increased. I've come to > >> // > >> // I have noticed a large increase in this as well; > >> // > >> // o Not quoting the original message, just supplying an out-of context > >> // answer. > > Just my two cents worth: > > You want to talk about hard to read messages? What about people's > addictions to TLAs? (Three Letter Abbreviations) I mean, come on now... > I can understand a BTW now and then, but all this business with > YMMV, IMO (or IMHO), or AFAIK, or WEAC2M (Whatever Acronym Comes to Mind) > is ridiculous. > FWIW, It seems to me that the abbreviations are an extension of the emoticons. Alot of people here know each other only by email, and these acronyms are a form of expression that help punctuate the written language (in an idiomatic form) such that it can appear to be as expressive as discussion in person. I think that such constructs might even be helpful to avoid mistaken flamage. Remember the old Morse code where there were "abbreviations" for common meanings, such as SOS? Or hows about the 10-codes that have been so misused as to be meaningless? (10-4 being the most abused...) YMMV, and IMNSHO. :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 09:25:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:25:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bird.te.rl.ac.uk (bird.te.rl.ac.uk [130.246.19.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15131 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:25:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tmb@rcru.rl.ac.uk) Received: from rcru.rl.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bird.te.rl.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14712; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:18:05 GMT (envelope-from tmb@rcru.rl.ac.uk) Message-Id: <199803031618.QAA14712@bird.te.rl.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: John Soward cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:00:49 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:18:04 +0000 From: Mark Blackman Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] John Soward writes: > will grok...something like an 'enterprise subscription' to the CDs that's more a > long the line of $1500/year instead of $150? Does Walnut Creek have a scheme like that? (i.e. some kind of elaborate mechanism to make donations look like a product purchase). I know that the Free Software Foundation takes this approach. http://www.fsf.org/order/deluxe.html Basically, you send $5000 and they do the compiling for you plus some printed manuals. Perhaps a "deluxe" FreeBSD distribution might be an approach to consider. -- ************************************************************************* * Mark Blackman * * Radar Group * * Radio Communications Research Unit * * Rutherford Appleton Laboratory E-mail: tmb@rcru.rl.ac.uk * * Chilton, Didcot Tel: +44-1235-446126 * * Oxon OX11 0QX, United Kingdom Fax: +44-1235-446140 * ************************************************************************* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 09:30:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15586 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:30:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from inetserver.mpainc.com ([198.246.145.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15578 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:30:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from RickSiple@mpainc.com) Received: by INETSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:30:45 -0500 Message-ID: <6150EE893AC3D011A3360020AFF799985F8C@INETSERVER> From: Rick Siple To: "'freebsd-chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: newbies mailing list Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:30:43 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Grrrr..... Stupid internet mail connector... Sorry for the poorly formatted reply, given the still running thread about poorly formatted e-mail. I have yet to figure out how to get Outlook and/or Exhange's Internet Mail Connector to stop quoting everything like that. > I think the key is to not be embarrassed to ask anything. On this note I can say that I put an exceptional amount of thought into the messages I send to questions (all three of the questions). Basically, it is just because I don't want to look like an idiot. I have a bachelors degree in Electrical Engineering so I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent individual, but I am still intimidated by the more experienced members on the lists. I don't know how to solve the problem, but I would hate to see the user base become divided as the members of the proposed newbies list gain more experience but perhaps fail to migrate to the original lists because they are more comfortable where they are. > I 'third' the search-archive problem. Improvement is necessary there, > although the hiccuping hub.freebsd disk may be somewhat to blame. I've experienced this myself. The major problem seems to be that the messages are not threaded. If NNTP articles were used instead of simple SMTP messages could the indexing engine be setup to allow navigation of threads instead of individual messages? Sometimes the article that mentions the keyword is the question and the answering articles did not quote the keyword. Following threads on the mailing lists as they occur can be just as difficult as persons respond to earlier postings and create multiple threads. I can't be the first person to have thought of this and I can think of more than one technical difficulty. First, a news reader is more difficult to setup for the end user. Second, I don't know if the freely available NNTP servers can handle private newsgroups (newsgroups sourced specifically by freebsd.org). Third, if any of the software can do private lists, can it also perform access control to keep newbies from accidentally posting to the technical lists. Also, the indexer would have to be changed to handle threaded articles, etc..... I'll stop babbling, as this has probably been hashed out before. -Rick Siple RickSiple@MPAInc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 09:48:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA17950 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (root@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17930 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA05751; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:06 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:05 -0800 (PST) From: Annelise Anderson To: Josef Grosch cc: allen campbell , grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) In-Reply-To: <19980303021013.27656@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 01:04:34AM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, allen campbell wrote: > > > > > > > IMHO, HTML is the best choice for this documentation. HTML is > > > > I think HTML is great for reading on the screen (with Netscape or > > Internet Explorer) and printing. But the handbook comes in 340 or so > > HTML pieces. It is in this condition useless to me, although I know > > other people like this sort of thing. So I usually read a latin1 > > version with "less," if there's something I need to look at. > > > > John Fieber suggested once breaking the handbook into chapters (he > > had 22 sections; 6 or 8 appealed to me) but the chapters were > > available only on his server. > > > > I printed out the copy of the handbook that came with 2.0.5 (it was > > ascii and had no control codes like ^H in it) using a little dos > > program called pcbook.exe. This is one of those programs that makes > > booklets; you take the paper out of the Laserjet and turn it over and > > print the other sides, and then fold it, and it gets the page numbers > > right. Actually I still use this version of the handbook because it's > > convenient, even though it's out of date. > > > > [ DELETED ] > > > It is in fact very easy to produce a postscript version of either the FAQ > or the handbook. Just cd in the directory with the sgml source and > > sgmlfmt -f ps [handbook|FAQ].sgml > > And out comes a postscript file. When I print a copy of the handbook I go > looking for a HP laser printer that can print on both sides. It's really > nice if you have a pack of pre-drilled laser paper. This is precisely the point where the exercise collapses. Since the FAQ and handbook are available in postscript versions (it is not even necessary to apply sgmlfmt), any further attention to this problem is unnecessary, because EVERYONE HAS A POSTSCRIPT PRINTER. In fact most dos/win users (remember, the target market) don't have postscript printers and may not even have Laserjets. (I have available to me in one way or another 9 or 10 Laserjet printers (five at home and five at the office) and not one of them prints postscript. The next step is to advise installation of ghostscript and apsfilter. My experience with these is that the print quality is extremely poor in comparison to what Laserjets do when using built-in fonts and so forth. However, I don't know how to install these on a dos/windows machine and then print a postscript version of the handbook. Maybe this is the only solution; I really don't think it should be. If this is what people are expected to do, the source of these programs and their installation and how to run them should be clearly explained. I don't think people should have to install new software to print basic documents. Annelise To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 12:13:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22588 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:13:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22495 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:13:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id NAA18162; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:31 -0700 (MST) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199803032013.NAA18162@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: A new cd player program for FreeBSD To: davidg@autodebit.com (David Green-Seed) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:13:30 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <71D507C37988D11182ED0000F80462AC69E0@adsdevelop2.autodebit.com> from "David Green-Seed" at Mar 3, 98 09:59:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Green-Seed > I realize that ports are important. > > I wasn't interested in doing a port - this was somewhat of an exercise > for me (to learn XLib) A perfectly good reason to develop a program. > My code is definitely not a port or a patch of WMRack. The idea for it > was taken from WMRack, but I wrote the player from scratch in C++. Did you develop any cool GUI objects using only Xlib code? Do I need to steal from, er, look at your code? ;^) > You're right about FreeBSD only. I would welcome a port to Linux - just > I don't have the facilities to do it. Want me to send you one of my "Open Linux Lite" CD-ROMS? I've been letting my 2-year-old daughter play with a couple of them, I've got so many. ;^) Redirected to -chat, as this thread should be. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 12:40:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28068 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28055 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:40:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA20913; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:40:07 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304074004.07656@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:40:04 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> <19980302213522.52802@welearn.com.au> <34FAA2BC.44C52F83@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980303105942.57041@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980303105942.57041@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:59:42AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:59:42AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 12:14:52 +0000, stuart henderson wrote: > > Sue Blake wrote: > >>> sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be > >>> converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if > >>> it works). > >> > >> With ghostscript? That's the first I've heard of it. > > > > There's a supplied ps2pdf script which invokes it with > > -sDEVICE=pdfwrite. Yes, it works, quite nice if you have to read > > manpages on a Windows machine. > > Interesting. > > > Making a .pdf of the handbook etc. would probably be very helpful for > > Windows users, using the current structure it's not very easy to > > download the whole lot to read off-line. Or a zip of all the html files > > (preferably with the extension .htm, yes it's ugly but at least it'll > > work better in Win3 :-) Word (or RTF) format is probably more useful in > > the long term but the converter's already there for PDF. > > A caveat: I tried doing this with the print image of "The Complete > FreeBSD". Here are the sizes of the .ps and the .pdf files: > > -rw-r--r-- 1 grog lemis 36091997 Feb 18 09:59 /home/Book/FreeBSD/Chapter/complete/book.ps > -rw-r--r-- 1 grog bin 203221187 Mar 3 10:17 /var/tmp/book.pdf If created with Acrobat's tools the same thing is just under 6 megs, probably because the graphics are stored compressed. Quite a space-saver, and one of the few excuses remaining for using windoze. While windoze is up, if someone can offer me a zipped handbook.ps (and/or FAQ) I'll experiment with an Acrobat version. (I'd have to FTP it to the win machine because my disks are all full) > I also find that xpdf gives a much worse rendition of the pdf version > than ghostview does of the ps version, but this may be just the > tools. Let's check that with a proper PDF, just for fun. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 13:33:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12106 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:33:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adsdevelop2.autodebit.com ([204.50.245.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11967 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davidg@autodebit.com) Received: by adsdevelop2.autodebit.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:34:00 -0800 Message-ID: <71D507C37988D11182ED0000F80462AC69E6@adsdevelop2.autodebit.com> From: David Green-Seed To: "'Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC'" Cc: "'chat@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: A new cd player program for FreeBSD Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:33:58 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes, Feel free to steal/look at any of my code. Note that it's all under the GNU Public License. I didn't write a whole GUI library - in fact, most of my stuff is fairly proprietary. I did, however, create a Button base class that could easily be generalized. It encapsulates a lot of "button" functionality - while leaving much flexibility to the derived class (ie: it could be any control thing - not just a traditional button.) As for your offer of a Linux CD, I would love to get my hands on one. A port should be straight forward - the diferences are pretty minimal - and localized. Chances are that I won't have the time to do a port for at least a month. Dave. _________________________ David Green-Seed davidg@autodebit.com Automated Debit Systems > -----Original Message----- > From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC [SMTP:softweyr@xmission.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 1998 12:14 PM > To: davidg@autodebit.com > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: A new cd player program for FreeBSD > > David Green-Seed > > I realize that ports are important. > > > > I wasn't interested in doing a port - this was somewhat of an > exercise > > for me (to learn XLib) > > A perfectly good reason to develop a program. > > > My code is definitely not a port or a patch of WMRack. The idea for > it > > was taken from WMRack, but I wrote the player from scratch in C++. > > Did you develop any cool GUI objects using only Xlib code? Do I need > to steal from, er, look at your code? ;^) > > > You're right about FreeBSD only. I would welcome a port to Linux - > just > > I don't have the facilities to do it. > > Want me to send you one of my "Open Linux Lite" CD-ROMS? I've been > letting my 2-year-old daughter play with a couple of them, I've got > so many. ;^) > > Redirected to -chat, as this thread should be. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters > Softweyr LLC > http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr > softweyr@xmission.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 15:52:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19870; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:50:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10189; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:52 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA19934; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:52 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:20:52 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) Reply-To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk>; from stuart henderson on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:51:55AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 10:51:55 +0000, stuart henderson wrote: >> IMHO, HTML is the best choice for this documentation. HTML is >> accessible from nearly everywhere, space efficient and by definition, >> hypertext. > >> If a plain text version is necessary for ease of printing and access >> where a browser isn't available, use the existing SGML tools to >> produce HTML and text from one base. > > At the moment, it's not very easy to get at the handbook or FAQ offline > until FreeBSD is installed. It would probably be more useful for many > people to be able to read it first - certainly in countries where phone > calls have to be paid for, online reading isn't a very sensible option. > > I think at the very least, there should be a (preferably .zip) archive > of the HTML versions for offline reading. > > A printable version as well would be nice: .ps is not a very good choice > because very few people in the Windows world know about ghostscript - > RTF/Word/PDF all have the advantage of being printer-independent and > usable on a reasonably standard configuration. I'm picking on your message to answer mainly because it's the last in sequence in my incoming mail :-) I don't have time to answer each message blow-by-blow, and I'm not sure it would be the best way to do it if I did. I have a number of points to make: 1. This is really an issue to discuss in -doc, not in -chat. I'm following up there. 2. The ASCII (latin1) version of the handbook doesn't contain any high-bit-set characters. The only unusual character it contains is a ^H (backspace), which even on DOS impact printers will create a bolder impression. In UNIX, you can (and I do) remove it with sed 's:.^H::g'. I suppose it would make sense to include a stripped version on the next CD-ROM, like I'm planning to put an ASCII version of "The Complete FreeBSD". 3. ASCII is *terrible* to read. One of the reasons I'm still wondering whether it's worth the trouble is that it's almost illegible. So much of the information is in the fonts and the character sizes; without this information, it's often very difficult to understand. 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but people should at least be made aware of the possibility. 5. I think HTML stinks as a documentation format. It's barely acceptable as a web format, and the attempts I've made to use it for Real Documents have been painful. Compare http://www.lemis.com/errata-2.html and ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/cfbsd/errata-2.ps, both of which ostensibly are the same document. About the only advantage it has is that just about everybody has a reader. BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? I've probably forgotten something here. I may follow up. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 16:27:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29775 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:27:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29569; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:26:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA21682; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:09 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:26:05 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > 3. ASCII is *terrible* to read. One of the reasons I'm still > wondering whether it's worth the trouble is that it's almost > illegible. Whoo, flag-waving time :-) For the past 6 years, I have done most of my reading in ASCII with the occasional addition of ANSI or avatar for colour. I find it the easiest text to read on screen, and the only kind readable under DOS. It is particularly convenient for people whose vision is not real good. The only way I've ever viewed the handbook or faq is on a plain text screen, and I don't feel particularly deprived. Some texts have a lot of the information in the fonts, and these do require either a printer or a GUI, or a good imagination. Ask me what's most convenient to most people who haven't installed FreeBSD yet, and I'll guess WinWord2 (many other word processors can read that), or the conservative RTF that is generated by WinWord2. Ask what's most sure to be accessible by all people, and it's gotta be ASCII. Neither by itself provides anything like a good, much less total, solution. > 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I > have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but > people should at least be made aware of the possibility. I've never liked the idea of giving something and saying oh, by the way, you'll have to install something to use this. That's my main objection to depending on things like PDF and Word for windoze environments. If you want people to use particular software you have to supply it and instructions, and hope that they have the required disk space and permission to install it, the resources to run it, and the motivation to go to that length. > BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? A long thread in an unrelated mailing list recently concluded that to be as platform independent as possible, HTML files should have names which are 8.3 and all caps. I prepared to install FreeBSD when running OS/2 and hand-renamed all of the handbook's HTML files and links so I could use them with the then-available software. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 17:39:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15790 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:39:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15737; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10283; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:46 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA20527; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:46 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:06:45 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 11:26:05AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 11:26:05 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I >> have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but >> people should at least be made aware of the possibility. > > I've never liked the idea of giving something and saying oh, by the way, > you'll have to install something to use this. That's my main objection to > depending on things like PDF and Word for windoze environments. > > If you want people to use particular software you have to supply it and > instructions, and hope that they have the required disk space and permission > to install it, the resources to run it, and the motivation to go to that length. Sure. We do that. It's called FreeBSD. >> BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? > > A long thread in an unrelated mailing list recently concluded that to be > as platform independent as possible, HTML files should have names which are > 8.3 and all caps. > > I prepared to install FreeBSD when running OS/2 and hand-renamed all of the > handbook's HTML files and links so I could use them with the then-available > software. I suppose there's not too much objection to supplying a script^H^H^H^H^H^Hbatch file which renames them for you. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 17:53:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19975 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:53:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19707; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:52:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA21931; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:52:14 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304125210.37584@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:52:10 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: stuart henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Documenters Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:06:45PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:06:45PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 11:26:05 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 10:20:52AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> 4. It is possible to install groff on DOS. I've never done it, and I > >> have no intention of introducing Microsoft to my workspace, but > >> people should at least be made aware of the possibility. > > > > I've never liked the idea of giving something and saying oh, by the way, > > you'll have to install something to use this. That's my main objection to > > depending on things like PDF and Word for windoze environments. > > > > If you want people to use particular software you have to supply it and > > instructions, and hope that they have the required disk space and permission > > to install it, the resources to run it, and the motivation to go to that length. > > Sure. We do that. It's called FreeBSD. Counter-snort. > >> BTW, can't you display .html files with Microsoft-based browsers? > > > > A long thread in an unrelated mailing list recently concluded that to be > > as platform independent as possible, HTML files should have names which are > > 8.3 and all caps. > > > > I prepared to install FreeBSD when running OS/2 and hand-renamed all of the > > handbook's HTML files and links so I could use them with the then-available > > software. > > I suppose there's not too much objection to supplying a > script^H^H^H^H^H^Hbatch file which renames them for you. It's the internal links that are the killer, their upper/lower case differences as well as the length of their file names. I realise batch files do more and work more reliably than unix scripts, and the dos users are cleverer at using them, but does FreeBSD have trouble handling short file names and upper case? Should someone be working on that? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 17:55:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:55:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20203 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10304; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:32 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA20647; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:32 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304122431.38449@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:24:31 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304125210.37584@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980304125210.37584@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:52:10PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 12:52:10 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > I realise batch files do more and work more reliably than unix scripts, and > the dos users are cleverer at using them, but does FreeBSD have trouble > handling short file names and upper case? No, but the users do :-) > Should someone be working on that? Definitely not. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 18:20:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26319 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26207; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:19:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22011; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:19:27 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304131922.38592@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:19:23 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat , freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304112605.61351@welearn.com.au> <19980304120645.61525@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304125210.37584@welearn.com.au> <19980304122431.38449@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980304122431.38449@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:24:31PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 12:24:31PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 12:52:10 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > I realise batch files do more and work more reliably than unix scripts, and > > the dos users are cleverer at using them, but does FreeBSD have trouble > > handling short file names and upper case? > > No, but the users do :-) > > > Should someone be working on that? > > Definitely not. Ha! You won't out-stubborn me that easily :-) I've been trained by experts. Do you or do you not want to encourage people to read the stuff _before_ they attempt to install (and start learning) FreeBSD? I think you do but would prefer that the compromises are all made at their end. Allocate a little extra space and they could pick out whatever format they can use, even if they only know unix and lower case. Or find one or two that _everyone_ can use... and test it to make sure. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 19:00:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02116 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:00:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02072 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10405; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:28:27 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA21138; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:22:08 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304132208.60145@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:22:08 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list) References: <19980302172511.58160@welearn.com.au> <19980302182544.45884@welearn.com.au> <19980302103201.36237@shale.csir.co.za> <19980302213522.52802@welearn.com.au> <34FAA2BC.44C52F83@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980303105942.57041@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304074004.07656@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980304074004.07656@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 07:40:04AM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 March 1998 at 7:40:04 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 10:59:42AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Mon, 2 March 1998 at 12:14:52 +0000, stuart henderson wrote: >>> Sue Blake wrote: >>>>> sections so you only have to print the pages you want, and should be >>>>> converted to PDF (which can be done with GhostScript - not sure if >>>>> it works). >>>> >>>> With ghostscript? That's the first I've heard of it. >>> >>> There's a supplied ps2pdf script which invokes it with >>> -sDEVICE=pdfwrite. Yes, it works, quite nice if you have to read >>> manpages on a Windows machine. >> >> Interesting. >> >>> Making a .pdf of the handbook etc. would probably be very helpful for >>> Windows users, using the current structure it's not very easy to >>> download the whole lot to read off-line. Or a zip of all the html files >>> (preferably with the extension .htm, yes it's ugly but at least it'll >>> work better in Win3 :-) Word (or RTF) format is probably more useful in >>> the long term but the converter's already there for PDF. >> >> A caveat: I tried doing this with the print image of "The Complete >> FreeBSD". Here are the sizes of the .ps and the .pdf files: >> >> -rw-r--r-- 1 grog lemis 36091997 Feb 18 09:59 /home/Book/FreeBSD/Chapter/complete/book.ps >> -rw-r--r-- 1 grog bin 203221187 Mar 3 10:17 /var/tmp/book.pdf > > If created with Acrobat's tools the same thing is just under 6 megs, > probably because the graphics are stored compressed. Quite a space-saver, > and one of the few excuses remaining for using windoze. My recollection was that they weren't stored at all. > While windoze is up, if someone can offer me a zipped handbook.ps (and/or > FAQ) I'll experiment with an Acrobat version. (I'd have to FTP it to the win > machine because my disks are all full) > >> I also find that xpdf gives a much worse rendition of the pdf version >> than ghostview does of the ps version, but this may be just the >> tools. > > Let's check that with a proper PDF, just for fun. It's the viewer, not the format. I printed out one page both from the original and from the .pdf, and they were indistinguishable. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 19:01:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02333 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:01:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02316; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:01:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10412; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:30:57 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA21330; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:30:44 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304133044.02088@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:30:44 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty , Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ahasty@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? References: <199803021549.MAA05913@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> <199803030920.BAA06680@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803030920.BAA06680@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 01:20:23AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 1:20:23 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> #define quoting(Mark Murray) >> // Greg Lehey wrote: >> // > It seems to me that in the last couple of months the number of >> // > hard-to-read mail messages has significantly increased. I've come to >> // >> // I have noticed a large increase in this as well; >> // >> // o Not quoting the original message, just supplying an out-of context >> // answer. >> >> Put Amancio Hasty in this list ! :) >> >> (I had to say that, I had to say that !!!!!!!! :) ) >> >> Sometimes I have problems to understand the context in his messages. > > (Moved to after the text to which it refers) > > Don't worry many of my messages are not meant to be understood rather > evoke a feeling , reaction and who knows to trigger a thought . Aha. Care to comment on what kind of feeling? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 19:18:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05633 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05268; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA22154; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:16:46 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19980304141644.11058@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:16:44 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: Amancio Hasty , Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ahasty@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? References: <199803021549.MAA05913@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> <199803030920.BAA06680@rah.star-gate.com> <19980304133044.02088@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980304133044.02088@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:30:44PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 01:30:44PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 1:20:23 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> #define quoting(Mark Murray) > >> // Greg Lehey wrote: > >> // > It seems to me that in the last couple of months the number of > >> // > hard-to-read mail messages has significantly increased. I've come to > >> // > >> // I have noticed a large increase in this as well; > >> // > >> // o Not quoting the original message, just supplying an out-of context > >> // answer. > >> > >> Put Amancio Hasty in this list ! :) > >> > >> (I had to say that, I had to say that !!!!!!!! :) ) > >> > >> Sometimes I have problems to understand the context in his messages. > > > > (Moved to after the text to which it refers) > > > > Don't worry many of my messages are not meant to be understood rather > > evoke a feeling , reaction and who knows to trigger a thought . > > Aha. Care to comment on what kind of feeling? Soliloquy? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 19:22:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06311 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:22:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (cisigw.coppe.ufrj.br [146.164.5.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06289; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonny@coppe.ufrj.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by gaia.coppe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24927; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:21:24 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199803040321.AAA24927@gaia.coppe.ufrj.br> Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? In-Reply-To: <19980304133044.02088@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Mar 4, 98 01:30:44 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:21:24 -0300 (EST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, jonny@coppe.ufrj.br, mark@grondar.za, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ahasty@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org // On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 1:20:23 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: // >> #define quoting(Mark Murray) // >> // Greg Lehey wrote: // >> // > It seems to me that in the last couple of months the number of // >> // > hard-to-read mail messages has significantly increased. I've come to // >> // // >> // I have noticed a large increase in this as well; // >> // // >> // o Not quoting the original message, just supplying an out-of context // >> // answer. // >> // >> Put Amancio Hasty in this list ! :) // >> // >> (I had to say that, I had to say that !!!!!!!! :) ) // >> // >> Sometimes I have problems to understand the context in his messages. // > // > (Moved to after the text to which it refers) Don't push on Amancio. At least he tried and quoted the original message. If you read the multimedia mailing list you'll understand that it could be worse. :) // > Don't worry many of my messages are not meant to be understood rather // > evoke a feeling , reaction and who knows to trigger a thought . // // Aha. Care to comment on what kind of feeling? Zen answers... Jonny -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis jonny@gta.ufrj.br +55 21 290-4698 jonny@coppe.ufrj.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro UFRJ/COPPE/CISI PGP fingerprint: 29 C0 50 B9 B6 3E 58 F2 83 5F E3 26 BF 0F EA 67 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 20:50:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21104 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:50:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21067 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:50:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10538; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:20:07 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA22168; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:20:07 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980304152007.09812@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:20:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? References: <199803040358.TAA02545@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199803040358.TAA02545@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, Mar 03, 1998 at 07:58:12PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) On Tue, 3 March 1998 at 19:58:12 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Nate Williams wrote: >> >>>> Wandering , if we can get a grant from the goverment to support the SMP >>>> project or to support FreeBSD ? >>> >>> The government has no money for such things anymore. >> >> There is some money flowing into academia. The NSF digitial >> library initiative is handing out about US$50 million this year. >> Unfortunately, SMP devolpment would be on the fringes of their >> agenda specified in their request for proposals. > I must have a cool SMP in order to support tera bytes libraries, > how else will I drive giganets with PCs, Cool if we get funding > we can drive Internet II , etc... > > I know that there is money flowing around we need a couple of > guys that know they way around Washington to get the money. > Incidently, FreeBSD goverment backing is not restricted to the US 8) Well, I think you should keep quiet about it. What you want is some Bay Area newspaper to point out that currently Finland outstrips the US regarding operating system development, and that the US Government is doing nothing to remedy the situation. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 21:07:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22895 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:07:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22875 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:07:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id QAA17084; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:09:29 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803040509.QAA17084@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3502ddd7.105407501@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 4, 98 04:56:17 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:09:29 +1100 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly wrote: > No matter how big it gets, it's still freed software. No one can > "control" it like some evil empire. We have the source, Luke. Ah yes, I'm holding onto my 2.2.5 CDs just so I can keep the source to boggle. Trademark or no trademark. 8-) And as me DEC keyring says: Unix - Live free or die (and on the flip side, why wait for HP?), but then they charge you. So I guess they die. Having access to the source is worth a lot. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 21:08:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23152 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:08:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23140 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:08:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03088; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:08:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803040508.VAA03088@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Uncle Sam, got a million bucks? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 15:20:07 +1030." <19980304152007.09812@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:08:18 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cool, that nice topic combine with suggesting that Nasa, DOD and the rest of the goverment should join the Microsoft goverment -- I still remember when Bill Gates turned down Washington's invite and then later on changed its mind. The first thing that crossed my mind was that Bill should instead invite the goverment to go to Redmond 8) Cheers, Amancio > Well, I think you should keep quiet about it. What you want is some > Bay Area newspaper to point out that currently Finland outstrips the > US regarding operating system development, and that the US Government > is doing nothing to remedy the situation. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 21:21:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25348 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA24563; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:21:31 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: John Birrell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:23:29 GMT Message-ID: <3503e3f5.106972149@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803040509.QAA17084@cimlogic.com.au> In-Reply-To: <199803040509.QAA17084@cimlogic.com.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA25353 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:09:29 +1100 (EST), John Birrell wrote: >Ah yes, I'm holding onto my 2.2.5 CDs just so I can keep the >source to boggle. Trademark or no trademark. 8-) Keep it on ice for a while. Someday when Jordan is too busy to notice, you can make some cosmetic name changes and sneak it back into the tree under the name of Joggle or something like that. ;) -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 21:58:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00292 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:58:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00285; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04325; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803040556.VAA04325@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ahasty@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is it just me, or are people forgetting how to write mail? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:30:44 +1030." <19980304133044.02088@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:56:56 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Aha. Care to comment on what kind of feeling? I if have to summarize in one word: passion. Me thinks that as we progress our user install based is getting complacent , lacks passion , and does not like to engage on active development somewhat akeen to a TV couch potatoe culture. The other sprectrum is the culture that grabs FreeBSD and runs like hell not necessarily because they don't want to participate rather because they get entrol in their own projects or visions 8) The latter goes way back to when I polled the group just curious for I felt that the activities around the OS where suspiciously quiet. Found out 1. a user complaint that he didn't have enough virtual memory to create his digital elevation map of the planet, others were doing jet design, radar control, neural-network research, OSF complained that X back then was not doing 1280x1024 and they really needed that for testing, etc... I do see a great surge to communicate or the need to be heard that by itself is rather interesting if you are into providing technology 8) Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 21:58:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00434 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:58:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00220 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:57:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id RAA17208; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:00:14 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803040600.RAA17208@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3503e3f5.106972149@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 4, 98 05:23:29 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:00:14 +1100 (EST) Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly wrote: > Keep it on ice for a while. Someday when Jordan is too busy to > notice, you can make some cosmetic name changes and sneak it back into > the tree under the name of Joggle or something like that. ;) I don't even know what it is. I just like the name. Joggle doesn't have the same ring (is that bong) to it. 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 3 22:03:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00840 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:03:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00830 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 22:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id RAA17234; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:05:01 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803040605.RAA17234@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: 3.0-RELEASE? In-Reply-To: <199803040529.WAA03824@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Mar 3, 98 10:29:42 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:05:01 +1100 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Warner Losh wrote: > for $500.00 you can get your own jkh motocycle faring, complete with > biking leathers, sport helment (complete with chuckie decal :-) and > three gallons of bad attitude. It cost me A$395 just to get a single rego plate for the bike with the letters "BSD" on it. Makes US$500 look pretty good as long as you don't have to get a jkh with it. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 4 00:10:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20866 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:10:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20843 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:10:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (ala-ca34-11.ix.netcom.com [207.93.143.139]) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA00209; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/8.6.9) id AAA14412; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:10:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:10:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803040810.AAA14412@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> To: mph@pobox.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19980303072055.41082@mph124.rh.psu.edu> (message from Matthew Hunt on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:20:56 -0500) Subject: Re: cvs commit: ports INDEX From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Since I submitted the dnswalk port, can I receive "Portmaster's * Greatest Hits of the 80's Come Alive at Red Rocks"? Sure. You have to wait 'til I get to the 80's, though. * Ever since reading a review of your "99 Luftballons", I've been * eager to get my paws on a copy. ;) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 4 06:45:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13244 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:45:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA13233; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 06:44:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00730; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:44:56 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA05577; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:44:56 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980304154456.55786@follo.net> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:44:56 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <1444.889019123@time.cdrom.com> <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <35025f98.6661194@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:07:29PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to -chat, where it rightly belong] On Wed, Mar 04, 1998 at 02:07:29PM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 04 Mar 1998 05:45:23 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" > wrote: > > >> With a pool of $500,000 to spend, neither Jordan nor core should be > >> deciding what gets funded. Funding decisions should be controlled by > >> the donors themselves, collectively. And voting is the only way to do > >> that. > > > >This is a complete waste of time. I've already told you - if you have > >a problem with the way funding is allocated then simply don't donate > >funds, it's very simple. Can we get back to work now? > > Keeping my money is one of the easiest things I can do. > > If you can't see the value of meaningful donor incentives, someone > else will. The FreeBSD Project doesn't need more administrative problems. Letting donors control the project is a definite administrative headache - FreeBSD want to go technically forward, and most people associated with the project trust core to generally do good decisions. I have no problem with trusting them with a donation of $100 (or $100,000 - had I had them) - and if people have that problem, then donate to a specific part of the project _by doing the work_, or by directly funding somebody to do the work (possibly by getting several people/organizations to chip in on it). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 4 13:45:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03270 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:45:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03252 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:44:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA28825 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for chat@freebsd.org); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 22:44:11 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id VAA03288; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:11:20 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803042011.VAA03288@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: Urgent please read... In-Reply-To: <19980304134414.19644@right.PCS> from Jonathan Lemon at "Mar 4, 98 01:44:14 pm" To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:11:20 +0100 (MET) Cc: perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org moved to -chat As Jonathan Lemon wrote... > On Mar 03, 1998 at 07:48:38PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote: > > > Well for 19cents a day, you can help one of our starving coders, imagine > > > that, just 19cents a day, barely the price of a hot cappichino with almond > > > flavoring, and that little sprinkle of cinnamon... (we all like cinnamon > > > right?) > > > > Argh. All those things Americans throw in their coffee... We tend to think > > most additions should 've been listed in the Geneva Convention on Chemical > > Warfare. > > Hey, not all Americans. I like my coffee black. B L A C K. No sugar, > no cream, no cinnamon, and definitely no flavored coffee. Right! I like some sugar with it, but OK. > Speaking of which, when I was Amsterdam a few years ago, I ordered coffee > with dinner in one of the restaurants. The waiter looked at me like I > was an alien - "You mean _after_ dinner." "No, I mean _with_ dinner." > They brought me this little cup of espresso to go with my steak (which was > perfectly fine with me, BTW), but still looked at me as if I was a weirdo. Impressive. Plenty of weirdo's in Amsterdam. > Heh. I guess I just perpetuated the "weird American" stereotype. Ach. I've been order in both our Colorado Springs and Shrewsbury (MA) facility to *not brew any new coffee, keep your hands from the coffee pot*. It seems I use the wrong quantity of water. People could not sleep at night 8-) > Jonathan (who still insists on getting Peet's coffee via mailorder) Whenever you're in Holland you're welcome to come over to have some coffee in Arnhem ;-) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 02:25:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20759 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:25:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20746 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:25:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA07721; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:24:18 -0800 (PST) To: Poul-Henning Kamp cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:37:29 +0100." <9741.889090649@critter.freebsd.dk> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:24:18 -0800 Message-ID: <7717.889093458@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ return to sanity and redirect to -chat ] > Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about > $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. > And even $1M may be too high for our ability. If I had $10M/yr, I'd simply spend $2M/yr on R&D, put $2M in the bank for a rainy day and give the rest to an independent marketing firm for promotional expenses. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:04:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08052 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:04:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08044; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:04:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA14447; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:04:05 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: sos@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:06:02 GMT Message-ID: <3508a2bd.2314100@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803050739.IAA15827@sos.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <199803050739.IAA15827@sos.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA08045 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:39:38 +0100 (MET), Søren Schmidt wrote: >> Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will >> begin to see the light. > >That would be turning a volounteer project into a real business. Yes, and that's the next natural step in the evolution of freed software. Netscape will be a good test. >If you want a commercial BSD, go for BSDi.... Their business model is flawed. They charge for every copy, they charge extra for source, and they won't even give you *all* the source. That just won't fly in today's world of freed software -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:04:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08097 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:04:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08047; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA14458; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:04:07 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:06:05 GMT Message-ID: <350aa2cd.2329753@mail.cetlink.net> References: <7717.889093458@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <7717.889093458@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA08048 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 02:24:18 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >[ return to sanity and redirect to -chat ] > >> Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about >> $1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. >> And even $1M may be too high for our ability. > >If I had $10M/yr, I'd simply spend $2M/yr on R&D, put $2M in the bank >for a rainy day and give the rest to an independent marketing firm for >promotional expenses. :-) > > Jordan This is part of the problem I'm addressing. The donors won't see eye to eye with your ideas of business and financial management. They will expect to retain control of the funding and how it's allocated. And frankly, Jordan, your rudeness, hostility, and anger toward those who don't agree with you indicates an unsuitability for the task. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:04:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08133 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:04:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08068 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:04:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA14462; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:04:08 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net Subject: Re: Donations.u Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:06:06 GMT Message-ID: <350ba2fa.2374462@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803050218.TAA02300@usr07.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <199803050218.TAA02300@usr07.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA08080 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 02:18:18 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert wrote: >The concern I would have if I were a company that funded some work >outside the management of FreeBSD proper would be whether or not, >when completed, the work would be committed back to the mainline >FreeBSD, such that it would appear and be maintained in subsequent >releases. > >If there were a way to fund this under the management of FreeBSD >proper, it would go a long way toward alleviating this concern. Another aspect: PHK told Karl to pay a contractor to fix his NFS problems. But Karl is not the only one having NFS problems. It doesn't make sense for Karl to pay for all the work of fixing NFS and everyone else to get a free ride. Karl, I, and many others would like to pool our resources to avoid bearing the financial burden individually. Someone has to administer that type of arrangement. Pay them reasonable administration fees. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:07:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08761 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08754 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA14454; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:04:06 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:06:04 GMT Message-ID: <3509a2c2.2318713@mail.cetlink.net> References: <9741.889090649@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <9741.889090649@critter.freebsd.dk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA08755 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 10:37:29 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: >In message <3505f27d.44276580@mail.cetlink.net>, John Kelly writes: > >>I'm not asking volunteers to do anything. I'm proposing a model which >>may *possibly* attract enough money to create an organization which >>can affort to hire administrators to handle those chores, and pay the >>coders for what they do best. >> >>Think in terms of a $10,000,000 (or more) budget per year and you will >>begin to see the light. > >Quite frankly, I don't think we would be able to spend more than about >$1M/y efficiently. Anything above that would get us a lot less bang/buck. >And even $1M may be too high for our ability. In the early stages, that's probably accurate. 1,000 donations of $1,000 each is a million. Is that unrealistic to achieve? You'll never know if you don't even want to try. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:08:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08998 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:08:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from symbionics.co.uk (symsun3.symbionics.co.uk [194.32.100.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA08983; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:08:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) From: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Received: from sympc287.symbionics.co.uk by symbionics.co.uk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19511; Thu, 5 Mar 98 13:08:05 GMT Message-Id: <9803051308.AA19511@symbionics.co.uk> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:04:44 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: "Open Source" Reply-To: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk Cc: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, jkn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi I came across the Open Source group a moment ago. http://www.opensource.org Eric Raymond (The Cathedral and the Bazar) has set it up within the last week. Seems to interesting; can FreeBSD use/learn/add anything to/from this? Duncan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:20:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10393 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:20:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10370 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:20:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA10405; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:19:22 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:06:05 GMT." <350aa2cd.2329753@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 05:19:21 -0800 Message-ID: <10401.889103961@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is part of the problem I'm addressing. The donors won't see eye > to eye with your ideas of business and financial management. They > will expect to retain control of the funding and how it's allocated. Which is a patently ridiculous assertion. You think that if I donate $100 to the Salvation Army or Amnesty International I get to choose which drunk they feed or which political prisoner they should attempt to liberate that week? I'm sure they'd listen to my preferences politely if I took the trouble to state them, but accept my donation conditionally on a specific course of action? Hardly! > And frankly, Jordan, your rudeness, hostility, and anger toward those > who don't agree with you indicates an unsuitability for the task. You're entitied to your opinion, of course, but be at least aware that any rudeness, hostility or anger you've collected so far is, in my opinion, entirely deserved. You're about the most stubbornly deluded individual I've come across in quite some time and I have no compunctions whatsoever about saying so publically. Does that make me a bad person and someone "unsuitable" to run a free software organazation or does it simply make me a guy who, once pushed past any reasonably limit, simply calls them as he sees them? I'll let you decide that because I'm going back to work now and, if you've any of your own to do, I can only suggest a similar course of action in the assumption that actual productivity is a goal we share in common. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:27:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11537 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11530; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:27:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16007; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:27:52 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:29:49 GMT Message-ID: <350ca787.3539916@mail.cetlink.net> References: <10401.889103961@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <10401.889103961@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id FAA11531 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 05:19:21 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >You're entitied to your opinion, of course, but be at least aware that >any rudeness, hostility or anger you've collected so far is, in my >opinion, entirely deserved. No, rudeness is always due to a lack of self control. >You're about the most stubbornly deluded individual I've come across >in quite some time and I have no compunctions whatsoever about saying >so publically. You're entitled to your opinion about me -- express it publicly if you like. But those expressions are more revealing about you than me. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 05:51:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA16087 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:51:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA16074; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA10580; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:50:01 -0800 (PST) To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:29:49 GMT." <350ca787.3539916@mail.cetlink.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 05:50:01 -0800 Message-ID: <10576.889105801@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No, rudeness is always due to a lack of self control. My rudeness is entirely deliberate and well under my control, I assure you. :) > You're entitled to your opinion about me -- express it publicly if you > like. But those expressions are more revealing about you than me. Ah yes, I remember this rebuttal from 3rd grade, though we expressed it somewhat more succinctly then: "I know you are, but what am I?" :-) I might also remind you that you started and have continued to instigate this discussion in the face of continued opposition. If that isn't more "revealing" than anything else here, I don't know what is. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 06:19:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18647 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA18634 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:19:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA19597; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:19:39 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Mikael Karpberg Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:21:37 GMT Message-ID: <34feb36e.6586660@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803051334.OAA22226@ocean.campus.luth.se> In-Reply-To: <199803051334.OAA22226@ocean.campus.luth.se> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA18635 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:34:13 +0100 (CET), Mikael Karpberg wrote: >Here's a few tips: >Start an organisation. > > You make a nice webpage, and start a mailinglist for "members only". > You convince our beloved webmaster to add a link to your site from the > main FreeBSD webpage to attract more corporations to your page. [ much deleted ] >Now, what are you waiting for? Very good suggestions. But I don't have enough history with the project or relationship with core team members to pull it off. Someone else who has the experience, knowledge, and trust of core needs to step forward. Otherwise there would just be a split, and that's not what I'm advocating. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 06:25:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20189 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:25:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20141; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA20061; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:25:22 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:27:20 GMT Message-ID: <34ffb51d.7016998@mail.cetlink.net> References: <10576.889105801@time.cdrom.com> In-Reply-To: <10576.889105801@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA20150 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 05:50:01 -0800, "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >I might also remind you that you started and have continued to >instigate this discussion in the face of continued opposition. If >that isn't more "revealing" than anything else here, I don't know what >is. Looks like our exchange is getting to the point of who's going to have the last word. :-) It's true there has been opposition, but this debate has also started some people thinking what they dared not think before. Comments from certain others testify to that. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 08:04:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00931 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:04:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ocean.campus.luth.se (ocean.campus.luth.se [130.240.194.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00887 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se) Received: (from karpen@localhost) by ocean.campus.luth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22520; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from karpen) From: Mikael Karpberg Message-Id: <199803051600.RAA22520@ocean.campus.luth.se> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34feb36e.6586660@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 02:21:37 pm" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:40 +0100 (CET) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to John Kelly: > On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:34:13 +0100 (CET), Mikael Karpberg > wrote: > >Now, what are you waiting for? > > Very good suggestions. But I don't have enough history with the > project or relationship with core team members to pull it off. > Someone else who has the experience, knowledge, and trust of core > needs to step forward. Otherwise there would just be a split, and > that's not what I'm advocating. You don't need any of that. All you need is enthusiasm, and a determination to get it going. Then start with setting up a free mailinglist and do some lobbying to find likeminded people, and gather a critical mass... And then launch it. Shouldn't be a problem. /Mikael To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 08:13:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01917 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:13:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from echonyc.com (echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01900 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:13:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from benedict@echonyc.com) Received: from localhost (benedict@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09520; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:13:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:13:14 -0500 (EST) From: Snob Art Genre To: John Kelly cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34fde4f8.40814877@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > If FreeBSD developers don't want their "volunteer" project to grow > into a well funded organization, another group will come along who do. > And they can easily take all the work done by the poor volunteers and > call their own project BigBucksBSD or whatever they like. How about "SunOS"? ;-) Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 09:00:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08245 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:00:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08127; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:59:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12838; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:59:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma012698; Thu, 5 Mar 98 10:59:00 -0600 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA27862; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:58:59 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:58:58 -0600 (CST) From: Kyle Mestery To: John Kelly cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <350ca787.3539916@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > >You're about the most stubbornly deluded individual I've come across > >in quite some time and I have no compunctions whatsoever about saying > >so publically. > > You're entitled to your opinion about me -- express it publicly if you > like. But those expressions are more revealing about you than me. > What is the point of this? Are you trying to prove that you can publicly beat a thread to death, and then turn it into a mudslinging event? Because it appears that is what you are doing. 1) You expressed your views concerning the recent donation topic. 2) A few people publicly agreed with you. 3) Most people publicly disagreed with you. 4) Jordan and core said they do not want any part of what you propose. 5) You continue to badger and try to incite riots. A logical 5 would have been to simply be quiet and stop poking people with a stick when they have repeatedly told you it hurts and would like you to stop. -- Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group "Keep honking, I'm reloading." "Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 09:07:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10198 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03811; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:07:43 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Mikael Karpberg Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 17:09:41 GMT Message-ID: <34fed9d0.16412578@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803051600.RAA22520@ocean.campus.luth.se> In-Reply-To: <199803051600.RAA22520@ocean.campus.luth.se> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA10199 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:40 +0100 (CET), Mikael Karpberg wrote: >You don't need any of that. All you need is enthusiasm, and a determination >to get it going. That's important, but the cooperation and endorsement of the present organization is more important. I don't think it can succeed outside the existing framework, for reasons that Terry mentioned. As he said, outside solutions create their own set of problems unless merged with the main tree. If core resisted painful architectural changes from paid developers, a split would ensue. That's why at least some of the core members would also need to become some of the paid developers. Either that, or ask some of the present core members to retire and replace them with paid developers. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 10:10:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21091 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:10:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21052 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03155; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:10:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd003085; Thu Mar 5 11:10:21 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25143; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:10:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803051810.LAA25143@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Donations.u To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:10:18 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, karl@mcs.net In-Reply-To: <350ba2fa.2374462@mail.cetlink.net> from "John Kelly" at Mar 5, 98 01:06:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > PHK told Karl to pay a contractor to fix his NFS problems. But Karl > is not the only one having NFS problems. It doesn't make sense for > Karl to pay for all the work of fixing NFS and everyone else to get a > free ride. So you are saying that you don't support the GPL model? ;-). > Karl, I, and many others would like to pool our resources to avoid > bearing the financial burden individually. Someone has to administer > that type of arrangement. Pay them reasonable administration fees. That's where I was obliquely heading. I think the administration should be done by FreeBSD, proper, rather than bringing gunslingers to do it. Have you read http://mozilla.org/mission.html yet? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 10:30:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24447 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24441 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:30:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA10161; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:30:34 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations.u Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 18:32:31 GMT Message-ID: <3502ebe8.21046051@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803051810.LAA25143@usr06.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <199803051810.LAA25143@usr06.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA24442 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:10:18 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert wrote: >> PHK told Karl to pay a contractor to fix his NFS problems. But Karl >> is not the only one having NFS problems. It doesn't make sense for >> Karl to pay for all the work of fixing NFS and everyone else to get a >> free ride. > >So you are saying that you don't support the GPL model? ;-). HAHAHAHA. I won't touch that. >> Karl, I, and many others would like to pool our resources to avoid >> bearing the financial burden individually. Someone has to administer >> that type of arrangement. Pay them reasonable administration fees. > >That's where I was obliquely heading. I think the administration should >be done by FreeBSD, proper, rather than bringing gunslingers to do it. Agreed. Otherwise, too much paid work will never see the tree and the money spent will go to waste. >Have you read http://mozilla.org/mission.html yet? Two parts stand out: >And we will, above all, be flexible and responsive. We realize that >if we are not perceived as providing a useful service, we will become >irrelevant, and someone else will take our place. A very good attitude to have. >We will collect changes, help authors synchronize their work, and >periodically make new source releases which incorporate the best work >of the net as a whole. That's key to the future success of FreeBSD. A funded development model can be part of that future, however, the FreeBSD organization must be willing to manage change or be left behind. If "we" don't do it, the Linux people surely will. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 12:39:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17024 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16953 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:39:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20624; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:39:26 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:41:20 GMT Message-ID: <35040d11.29515761@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803052030.NAA07313@usr06.primenet.com> In-Reply-To: <199803052030.NAA07313@usr06.primenet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id MAA16962 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:07 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert wrote: >but no voting or other crap should be employed in the decision making >process for resource allocation; there is no room for Gerrymandering. Why should donors part with their money if they have no control over getting their concerns addressed? -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 13:55:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26641 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:55:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eug4ja.lane.edu (eug4ja.lane.edu [158.165.5.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26636 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:55:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from CUPPLES_S@4j.lane.edu) Received: from 4j.lane.edu by 4j.lane.edu (PMDF V5.1-9 #27890) id <01IUB5O3C0EG8WWSID@4j.lane.edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:55:06 PST Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:55:06 -0800 (PST) From: cupples_s@4j.lane.edu Subject: LPD problme To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a P90 running 2.2.5 with netatalk as a print spooler for our journalism department. I have noticed that ocasionally it stops printing like after 5 or 10 big postscrit files, lpq lists the items in the Q and a error about no daemon avaiable. I restart lpd and the errors go away, but it still will not print, until I empty the q compleetley by hand. What do I do. Shawn Cupples South Eugene High School To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 14:29:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00662 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:29:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00652 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:29:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17332; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:25:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803052225.OAA17332@implode.root.com> To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Mar 1998 20:41:20 GMT." <35040d11.29515761@mail.cetlink.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:25:56 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:07 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert > wrote: > >>but no voting or other crap should be employed in the decision making >>process for resource allocation; there is no room for Gerrymandering. > >Why should donors part with their money if they have no control over >getting their concerns addressed? Jordan was pretty clear about this already. Most non-profit organizations work this way, for example - United Way, PBS, etc. The donors *trust* the principals to spend the money in a wise and useful manner. Those organizations with the best track record of this tend to be the ones that get the most money. Noone except the board of directors has any real say in the way that the money is spent, but people still donate because they believe in the cause and the people behind it. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 14:45:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01960 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@199-170-160-195.la.inreach.net [199.107.160.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01907 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:44:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25296; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:44:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803052225.OAA17332@implode.root.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:44:34 -0800 (PST) Organization: Starfleet Command From: Donald Burr To: David Greenman Subject: Re: Donations. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , (John Kelly) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My secret spy satellite informs me that on 05-Mar-98, David Greenman wrote: > Thanks for using NetForward! > http://www.netforward.com > v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v > >>On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:07 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert >> wrote: >> >>>but no voting or other crap should be employed in the decision making >>>process for resource allocation; there is no room for Gerrymandering. Precisely. Once you start getting into voting and all that crap, that's "buying into" a company (e.g. stockholding). As long as you're doing that, you might as well file for an IPO and start trading on NASDAQ or something. >>Why should donors part with their money if they have no control over >>getting their concerns addressed? > > Jordan was pretty clear about this already. Most non-profit > organizations > work this way, for example - United Way, PBS, etc. The donors *trust* > the > principals to spend the money in a wise and useful manner. Those > organizations > with the best track record of this tend to be the ones that get the most > money. Noone except the board of directors has any real say in the way > that > the money is spent, but people still donate because they believe in the > cause > and the people behind it. This is a very good point. When I send in my $12 a month to Children International, I trust that they will use the money wisely and take care of my sponsor child. And so far my trust has been justified. However, IMHO the "good" organizations (Children Int'l included) periodically send out "status reports" on what's going on, what the money is being used for, etc. (similar in concept to the annual reports that stockholders in corporations get -- going back to the stockholder analogy). This helps assuage any doubts that might crop up, and in fact is what got me to "trust" Children Int'l in the first place (looking at the reports that were sent to a friend of mine who is also a donor). Hopefully FreeBSD will consider adopting a similar practice. --- Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 15:10:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06139 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from exit1.i485.net (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.1]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04571; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:09:58 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 23:11:56 GMT Message-ID: <34ff2ee6.38016448@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199803052225.OAA17332@implode.root.com> In-Reply-To: <199803052225.OAA17332@implode.root.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA06145 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:25:56 -0800, David Greenman wrote: >>Why should donors part with their money if they have no control over >>getting their concerns addressed? > > Jordan was pretty clear about this already. Most non-profit organizations >work this way, for example - United Way, PBS, etc. The donors *trust* the >principals to spend the money in a wise and useful manner. Yes, but those are organizations performing charitable works for the public good, and giving the donor a tax deduction. Can a FreeBSD organization serving the business needs of ISPs and other likely business donors continue providing tax write-offs to its donors? I expect the IRS will view it as a business consortium, not a charitable organization. If you can raise significant funding for FreeBSD without giving the donors any say in funds allocation, more power to you. -- Browser war over, Mozilla now free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 15:33:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08845 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:33:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08836 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:33:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26020; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:32:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025993; Thu Mar 5 16:32:57 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA09306; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:32:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199803052332.QAA09306@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Donations. To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:32:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35040d11.29515761@mail.cetlink.net> from "John Kelly" at Mar 5, 98 08:41:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >but no voting or other crap should be employed in the decision making > >process for resource allocation; there is no room for Gerrymandering. > > Why should donors part with their money if they have no control over > getting their concerns addressed? To get unsexy but necessary work done? Certainly, *IF* the FreeBSD project indicated a willingness to manage funded tasks, then I suposed they could implement a list of tasks they would like to fund, and a breakdown of funding vs. bodies based on their priorities. Something like: Funding level o o o o o o o ... Allocation | | | | | | | | | | | | | v | | | | | v 3rd SMP body | | | | v 1st NFS body | | | v 1st ABI body | | v 2nd SMP body | v 1st tree maintainer v 1st SMP body 1st installer body You want a body assigned? Pay the difference in the funding level between where it is and where the task you are interested in gets its next body... Alternately, they could list the projects they would be willing to fund, and you could "vote" for the project, like you want, by $ assignment. The problem with your approach, though, is that you will not be guaranteed to get threshold funding to ever actually start doing anything. I think that Jordan has done some of this prioritization already (Mike Smith being the "1st installer body"); the only difference is that he has not disclosed his priority list (probably he's saying to himself "I'll deal with the problem of where to put extra funds when I see that I have extra funds... it's a problem I'd be happy to have" 8-)). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 15:36:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1678.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1678.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09197 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA00935; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:07:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:07:24 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: John Kelly cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <3509a2c2.2318713@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > 1,000 donations of $1,000 each is a million. Is that unrealistic to > achieve? You'll never know if you don't even want to try. It is unrealistic to plan for. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 15:37:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09396 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:37:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1678.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1678.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.142]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09358 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:37:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1678.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA00956; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:34:46 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp1678.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:34:46 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: John Kelly cc: Mikael Karpberg , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34feb36e.6586660@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > Very good suggestions. But I don't have enough history with the > project or relationship with core team members to pull it off. > Someone else who has the experience, knowledge, and trust of core > needs to step forward. Otherwise there would just be a split, and You [John Kelly] seem to believe that there are hordes of people ready and willing to donate to FreeBSD sitting around just waiting for FreeBSD Inc. to request their money. I suggest, quite strongly, that 90% of the people who would donate any money can be found reading the FreeBSD newsgroups and mailing lists. There is absolutely no reason you cannot secure just as much money as jkh could. A well-worded announcement to -chat and to news, along with some carefully dropped suggestions in otherwise on-topic messages in -current, -hackers, -etc. would corral most of the money available. The money does not need to be sent to you, the goal is only to get a commitment from the donators. Once sufficient funds to accomplish one of these massive projects are accumulated, send it all in to jkh, and I'm sure he or someone else will have it spent on said massive project. Unfortunately, however, I completely believe that you will fail (as FreeBSD Inc. would fail) to guarantee anywhere near the sort of funding necessary to make such a project feasible. The usermass simply _does not_ exist to make any votes meaningful. If it did, Linux would have had it a long time ago! (Read that again, please. Thanks.) Really, I don't understand why giving money away is so complicated. Does it really take nearly a hundred messages just to figure-out how to write a cheque, address it, and stamp it? Are we so incredibly dumb as to need kilobytes of text instructing us how to do it!? I thought we were brilliant computer scientists (speaking of which, I fared ok in a recent national competition, thanks FreeBSD & GNU :) --- this is really not befitting. I've been reading message after message, hoping for some good insults and entertainment, in the classic ancient Roman style, and have been sorely disappointed. Perhaps my sense of entertainment is highly distorted and I just really need to get laid (what does this say of the primary participants, then?!), but please, folks, let's add some real content to these messages. Names! Catcalls! Evil wife-beating insinuations! Anything but this bland "Voting will get my money" repeated over and over and over and over. Civility is no substitute for content, be that content a well-reasoned and supported argument ("Doomsday approaches" is not a well-reasoned and supported argument), or viscous threats and ad hominem attacks; just something to make it worth reading, please! Sic'em Chuckie! Go get 'em! At-a boy Chuckie! (Man, this is so nauseating...there's not even a single smiley to be found in here... ) [There: I added one! Now two! :-] -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 15:57:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11526 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:57:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11511 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:57:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25573; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:57:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:57:02 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: John Kelly cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <35040d11.29515761@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, John Kelly wrote: > On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:07 +0000 (GMT), Terry Lambert > wrote: > > >but no voting or other crap should be employed in the decision making > >process for resource allocation; there is no room for Gerrymandering. > > Why should donors part with their money if they have no control over > getting their concerns addressed? Because they are satisfied with the recipients past performance, agree with the recipients stated goals, and trust that the donation will be used in pursuit of said goals. They understand that those directly involved have a better understanding of the needs of the organization and have no desire to micro-manage. There are two options. Donate and trust that they will do the right thing, or don't donate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 20:56:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26021 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:56:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from const. (algae15.verinet.com [199.45.181.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26015 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:56:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17529; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:58:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:58:40 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199803060458.VAA17529@const.> To: jak@cetlink.net Subject: Re: Donations. Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > And frankly, Jordan, your rudeness, hostility, and anger toward those > > who don't agree with you indicates an unsuitability for the task. > > any rudeness, hostility or anger you've collected so far is, in my > opinion, entirely deserved. Here here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 21:54:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02647 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:54:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02636 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22175 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:54:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:54:40 -0500 (EST) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Senate Anti-trust stuff Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you missed all of this, or the soundbites weren't enough, C-SPAN has the whole 2-hour + event available via RealAudio/Video. About 20 minutes in, the witnesses begin their opening statements. Very interesting stuff. http://www.cspan.org/onprogak.htm#e0303 Charles Sprickman spork@super-g.com ---- "I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man Just a mortal with potential of a superman I'm living on" -DB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 22:09:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05722 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:09:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from MindBender.serv.net (root@mindbender.serv.net [205.153.153.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05716 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:08:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mvanloon@MindBender.serv.net) From: mvanloon@MindBender.serv.net Received: from lobotomy.HeadCandy.com (Lobotomy.HeadCandy.com [198.232.197.130]) by MindBender.serv.net (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA29116; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:08:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by Lobotomy.HeadCandy.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:08:16 -0800 Message-ID: <226EB39D3C91D111B2F900A0C90543832984@Lobotomy.HeadCandy.com> To: jak@cetlink.net, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Donations. Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:08:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The OpenBSD guys seem to be doing quite well these days, and they certainly did not have the well-wishes and endorsement of the NetBSD core, or many of the dedicated followers. > -----Original Message----- > From: jak@cetlink.net [SMTP:jak@cetlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 1998 9:10 AM > > On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:00:40 +0100 (CET), Mikael Karpberg > wrote: > > >You don't need any of that. All you need is enthusiasm, and a > determination > >to get it going. > > That's important, but the cooperation and endorsement of the present > organization is more important. I don't think it can succeed outside > the existing framework, for reasons that Terry mentioned. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 22:22:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08491 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:22:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08435 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:21:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id RAA15895; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:20:01 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199803060620.RAA15895@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: OpenBSD (was RE: Donations) In-Reply-To: <226EB39D3C91D111B2F900A0C90543832984@Lobotomy.HeadCandy.com> from "mvanloon@MindBender.serv.net" at "Mar 5, 98 10:08:15 pm" To: mvanloon@MindBender.serv.net Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:19:52 +1100 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org mvanloon@MindBender.serv.net wrote: > The OpenBSD guys seem to be doing quite well these days, and they > certainly did not have the well-wishes and endorsement of the NetBSD > core, or many of the dedicated followers. Not just NetBSD core, but the NetBSD developers (i.e. committers). What OpenBSD have done is to provide an opportunity for people to contribute where that was (is!) "difficult" with NetBSD. And in doing that, they have found their own way of doing business. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 5 22:41:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12295 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12272 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08945; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:41:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199803060641.WAA08945@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: John Birrell cc: mvanloon@MindBender.serv.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD (was RE: Donations) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 17:19:52 +1100." <199803060620.RAA15895@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 22:41:31 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I rather that we stick together on this group. Fragmenting the group further is not really a good idea of course there is nothing to stop anyone from doing it. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 00:03:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08865 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:03:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08845; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:03:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13570; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:33:02 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA07529; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:33:01 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306183301.19919@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:33:01 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD Chat , rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party References: <19980306182358.56365@freebie.lemis.com> <23869.889171143@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <23869.889171143@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 11:59:03PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (following up to -chat; some people get upset about this kind of subject on -hackers). On Thu, 5 March 1998 at 23:59:03 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I think you need to make it clear that the hacker party and the >> "FreeBSD WorldCon" are not the same thing. With the supplied >> documentation, that wasn't obvious. > > Erm, they were never the same thing - who said they were? Nobody that I heard. Who said they weren't? > What I was trying to suggest here was the possibility of merging the > two events into one since the locales are already rather close and > it seems silly to go do Arnhem one month and then return to > Amsterdamn on another month. :-) Right. It makes a lot of sense once you know that "FreeBSD WorldCon" isn't a hacker party. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 00:04:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09165 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:04:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09086; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:04:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA23956; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:03:25 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD Chat , rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 18:33:01 +1030." <19980306183301.19919@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 00:03:25 -0800 Message-ID: <23952.889171405@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Erm, they were never the same thing - who said they were? > > Nobody that I heard. Who said they weren't? Are you trying to set some record for deliberate obtusity this week or what, Greg? :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 00:23:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13015 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:23:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12907; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA13703; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:52:57 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA07611; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:52:57 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980306185256.19856@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 18:52:56 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD Chat , rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party References: <19980306183301.19919@freebie.lemis.com> <23952.889171405@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <23952.889171405@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 12:03:25AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 6 March 1998 at 0:03:25 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> Erm, they were never the same thing - who said they were? >> >> Nobody that I heard. Who said they weren't? > > Are you trying to set some record for deliberate obtusity this week or > what, Greg? :-) No. Once I understood that this event (forgotten the name) wasn't the party, all was clear as mud. But you didn't say that in your original message, and how was I to know? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 04:23:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA10235 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:23:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10230; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:23:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA25149; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:22:14 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Wilko Bulte , FreeBSD Chat , rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 18:52:56 +1030." <19980306185256.19856@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 04:22:13 -0800 Message-ID: <25145.889186933@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No. Once I understood that this event (forgotten the name) wasn't the > party, all was clear as mud. But you didn't say that in your original > message, and how was I to know? Bah.. --- Actually, a few of us here were also thinking about putting together a ^^^^ "FreeBSD WorldCon" this year - the date would be September 25th and the location would be Amsterdam, Holland. Perhaps we should attempt to merge the two events? ^^^ Jordan -- Like I said.. Anyway, can we get back to the original substance of the discussion? Maybe we should just leave these two events separate - they seem to cause confuseion. :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 06:28:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00164 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:28:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00154; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:28:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199803061428.GAA00154@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Donations. In-Reply-To: <34ff2ee6.38016448@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Mar 5, 98 11:11:56 pm" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:28:34 -0800 (PST) Cc: dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly wrote: > On Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:25:56 -0800, David Greenman > wrote: > > >>Why should donors part with their money if they have no control over > >>getting their concerns addressed? > > > > Jordan was pretty clear about this already. Most non-profit organizations > >work this way, for example - United Way, PBS, etc. The donors *trust* the > >principals to spend the money in a wise and useful manner. > > Yes, but those are organizations performing charitable works for the > public good, and giving the donor a tax deduction. John, please get your facts right before you make statements. 1. FreeBSD does *not* provide tax write-offs to its donors. FreeBSD is *not* a recognized charitable institution. 2. FreeBSD does perform charitable works for the public good. Many educational institutions use FreeBSD as part of their "computing infrastructure". 3. (D)ARPA funded a significant amount of BSD development. Busineses are allowed to use BSD code *almost* without restriction (read the copyright for details). 4. The IRS views FreeBSD as a tax paying entity. jmb > > Can a FreeBSD organization serving the business needs of ISPs and > other likely business donors continue providing tax write-offs to its > donors? I expect the IRS will view it as a business consortium, not a > charitable organization. > > If you can raise significant funding for FreeBSD without giving the > donors any say in funds allocation, more power to you. > > -- > Browser war over, Mozilla now free. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 09:41:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20761 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20751 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:41:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksmm@cybercom.net) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-29.cybercom.net [209.21.137.29]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19094 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:22:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803061722.MAA19094@kalypso.cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 12:03:15 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: See, it's not hopeless :-) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FTC brings fraud charges against mass e-mailer By Matthew Broersma March 5, 1998 ZDNN The Federal Trade Commission has taken the groundbreaking step of suing a junk e-mailer for fraud -- the first law enforcement action over spam, according to the FTC. On Wednesday the FTC filed a complaint with a federal district court to "permanently prohibit the seller of an allegedly bogus business opportunity from making false promises to tout the scheme," according to the announcement. "The rules for advertising by e-mail are the same as the rules for advertising through the regular mail: Don't mislead or lie to consumers, or the FTC will come after you," said Jodie Bernstein, Director of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection in a statement. While spamming -- the practice of sending out thousands or millions of unsolicited e-mail messages -- is not illegal, fraud can be prosecuted whether it is conducted over the telephone, the U.S. Postal Service, or the Internet. The FTC announced several months ago it would begin cracking down on fraudulent spam, and now seems to be making good on its promise. In its complaint, the FTC charged that the spam messages and Internet home page of Internet Business Broadcasting Inc. of Rancho Cucamonga, Calif., contained false and misleading income claims. The group solicited investments over unsolicited e-mail messages, according to the FTC. Thomas Maher, Dorian Reed and Audrey Reed were also named in the FTC complaint. FTC: Sending a message "The way I see it, the FTC did what they said they would do, go after spam in cases where it's fraudulent," said Scott Hazen Mueller, chairman of the Coalition Against Unsolicited Commercial E-mail, which promotes anti-spam legislation. The FTC recently sent out messages to spammers warning they could be prosecuted for fraud. Mueller said the FTC action does not change the rules of the game for spammers, but might discourage some "get rich quick" schemes and other types of fraud over the Net. "Fraud has always been illegal," Mueller said. "The main thing is, the FTC is showing that they can take care of it in the Internet arena just like they do everywhere else. If the spam is just annoying, the FTC isn't going to be able to help you out with it." The FTC could not be reached for comment. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 13:23:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27063 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:23:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl (osmium.gn.iaf.nl [193.67.144.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26957; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:22:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wilko@yedi.iaf.nl) Received: by uni4nn.gn.iaf.nl with UUCP id AA16058 (5.67b/IDA-1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:22:03 +0100 Received: (from wilko@localhost) by yedi.iaf.nl (8.8.7/8.6.12) id VAA14972; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:58:11 +0100 (MET) From: Wilko Bulte Message-Id: <199803062058.VAA14972@yedi.iaf.nl> Subject: Re: RFC: Polling for interest on 2nd European (Dutch) hacker party In-Reply-To: <23952.889171405@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 6, 98 00:03:25 am" To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:58:11 +0100 (MET) Cc: grog@lemis.com, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rene@tcja.nl, arnoud.venema@ict.nl X-Organisation: Private FreeBSD site - Arnhem, The Netherlands X-Pgp-Info: PGP public key at 'finger wilko@freefall.freebsd.org' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... > > > Erm, they were never the same thing - who said they were? > > > > Nobody that I heard. Who said they weren't? > > Are you trying to set some record for deliberate obtusity this week or > what, Greg? :-) Oh my good grief, what did I start??? ;-) Wilko _ ______________________________________________________________________ | / o / / _ Bulte email: wilko @ yedi.iaf.nl http://www.tcja.nl/~wilko |/|/ / / /( (_) Arnhem, The Netherlands - Do, or do not. There is no 'try' --------------- Support your local daemons: run [Free,Net,Open]BSD Unix -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 20:18:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19659 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:18:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA19654 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:18:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02168; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:13:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803070413.UAA02168@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Karl Denninger , lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, Terry Lambert , Chuck Robey Subject: Old farts blathering (was Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:06:14 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:13:26 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Where I come from we shoot people like this before they get started. The last time I had to put up with this, the geezer in question was busy trying to explain how resistors were more vulnerable to static electricity than capacitors. > On 07-Mar-98 Karl Denninger wrote: > > People discount lower-voltage circuits because they *think* they're > > safer. > > They're not really if there is what amounts to a near-infinite current > > source behind them. > > >From R/C car racing, a sub-c NiCd battery will put out 60 AMp for about 3.5 > minutes. That's 3.5Ah, which is substantially beyond the capacity of a "sub-c" NiCd cell (usually around 1.1Ah until quite recently). In reality, that sort of discharge rate will cause electrolyte depletion and self-regulation after a few seconds, although even then in older cells there's room for the sucker to pop on you. > A telephone man older than I am (yes, there is such a thing), claimed that > Union rules had as much to do with telephony voltages as pure engineering. > The DC thing dates back to the days that DC/AC converters used mechanical > vibrators and were less than efficient or reliable (yes, I used these on FM > two-way radios) These old days were NOT good. DC-is-better-than-AC is a comfortable myth with a grounding in FUD and a fertile ground in the not-so-well-informed minds of Telco engineers. Some contributing factors to this have historical validity, but most are overwhelmed by the drawbacks of low-voltage DC. IIR is not your friend. And just harking back to Karl's earlier comments inre: AC:DC vs. DC:DC conversion - AC:DC conversion these days *is* DC:DC conversion, and a TL437 and some garden-variety magnetics will give you better power than you might want to believe. You have to be outrageously stingy to produce rotten DC these days, or just obsessed with doing it the hard way. (Of course, PC manufacturers are typically outrageously stingy...) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 20:25:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20172 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:25:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20164 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 23498 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 04:34:07 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803070413.UAA02168@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:34:07 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: RE: Old farts blathering (was Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... ) Cc: Chuck Robey , Terry Lambert , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, Karl Denninger Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: > > Where I come from we shoot people like this before they get started. > The last time I had to put up with this, the geezer in question was > busy trying to explain how resistors were more vulnerable to static > electricity than capacitors. I see from the below, you have very little trouble joining in :-) >> >From R/C car racing, a sub-c NiCd battery will put out 60 AMp for about >> >3.5 >> minutes. > > That's 3.5Ah, which is substantially beyond the capacity of a "sub-c" > NiCd cell (usually around 1.1Ah until quite recently). In reality, > that sort of discharge rate will cause electrolyte depletion and > self-regulation after a few seconds, although even then in older cells > there's room for the sucker to pop on you. I thought so too. First, the cells are nominally 1,700MaH, then the chargers are really tricky, then the batteries have the life expectancy of an NHRA funny car engine, then they get hot enough during a run that you cannot solder the tabs, they must be welded, or the pack will fall apart, then the cells must be one particular Sanyo model. If not, all that you said happens. Quite amazing. > DC-is-better-than-AC is a comfortable myth with a grounding in FUD and > a fertile ground in the not-so-well-informed minds of Telco engineers. Yup. We are back to Edison-vs.Tesla all over again :-) > Some contributing factors to this have historical validity, but most > are overwhelmed by the drawbacks of low-voltage DC. IIR is not your > friend. > > And just harking back to Karl's earlier comments inre: AC:DC vs. DC:DC > conversion - AC:DC conversion these days *is* DC:DC conversion, and a > TL437 and some garden-variety magnetics will give you better power than > you might want to believe. > > You have to be outrageously stingy to produce rotten DC these days, or > just obsessed with doing it the hard way. (Of course, PC manufacturers > are typically outrageously stingy...) Yup. The WDT board I am polishing the driver for alarms for low-voltage on a new, EXPENSIVE, rackmount CPU box. No, the WDT is not broken, but the 5V is really 4.73. You are right, you have to try hard to mess up... ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 20:44:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22231 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:44:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22217 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:44:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02245; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:40:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803070440.UAA02245@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Chuck Robey , Terry Lambert , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, Karl Denninger Subject: Re: Old farts blathering (was Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:34:07 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 20:40:59 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On 07-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Where I come from we shoot people like this before they get started. > > The last time I had to put up with this, the geezer in question was > > busy trying to explain how resistors were more vulnerable to static > > electricity than capacitors. > > I see from the below, you have very little trouble joining in :-) So it seems. I think us young farts have a controbution to make too. > >> >From R/C car racing, a sub-c NiCd battery will put out 60 AMp for about > >> >3.5 > >> minutes. > > > > That's 3.5Ah, which is substantially beyond the capacity of a "sub-c" > > NiCd cell (usually around 1.1Ah until quite recently). In reality, > > that sort of discharge rate will cause electrolyte depletion and > > self-regulation after a few seconds, although even then in older cells > > there's room for the sucker to pop on you. > > I thought so too. First, the cells are nominally 1,700MaH, then the > chargers are really tricky, then the batteries have the life expectancy of > an NHRA funny car engine, then they get hot enough during a run that you > cannot solder the tabs, they must be welded, or the pack will fall apart, > then the cells must be one particular Sanyo model. If not, all that you > said happens. Quite amazing. Hmm, I prefer the Varta 2.2Ah cells actually. The Sanyo ones have lots of "these are great" legends floating around, but the "really tricky" charger you're describing is basically just a box with a DC regulator and an energy polariser crystal, and I still never saw them create energy from nowhere. But I 'fess that most of the little driving I did was off-road, where capacity per weight matters more than peak output. I used to think those weenies in the shopping centre carparks on weekends were just that. (Hmm, I guess over here you can't do that sort of thing in that sort of carpark, what with 7-day shopping and all.) > > DC-is-better-than-AC is a comfortable myth with a grounding in FUD and > > a fertile ground in the not-so-well-informed minds of Telco engineers. > > Yup. We are back to Edison-vs.Tesla all over again :-) That seems to be about it. Edison got the telcos and Tesla the utilities. > > You have to be outrageously stingy to produce rotten DC these days, or > > just obsessed with doing it the hard way. (Of course, PC manufacturers > > are typically outrageously stingy...) > > Yup. The WDT board I am polishing the driver for alarms for low-voltage on > a new, EXPENSIVE, rackmount CPU box. No, the WDT is not broken, but the 5V > is really 4.73. You are right, you have to try hard to mess up... Have you tried adjusting the output on the supply? Like I said, PC manufacturers are pretty stingy; it was probably factory-set at about 35C and 90% RH with no more than a few minutes runtime. We used to make a habit of readjusting supplies in the (expensive) rackmount CPU cases we bought, particularly for systems destined for (ant)arctic environments where the air-on temperature with the gear unattended could be expected to run below 10C on a regular basis. They were generally quite stable, just wrong when they arrived. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 21:03:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23894 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:03:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA23888 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:03:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 24056 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 05:11:24 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803070440.UAA02245@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:11:24 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: Old farts blathering (was Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... ) Cc: Karl Denninger , lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, Terry Lambert , Chuck Robey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: ... > Hmm, I prefer the Varta 2.2Ah cells actually. The Sanyo ones have lots > of "these are great" legends floating around, but the "really tricky" > charger you're describing is basically just a box with a DC regulator > and an energy polariser crystal, and I still never saw them create > energy from nowhere. Not quite. A peak-detector charger actually pushes a lot of current into the battery very quickly, with amazingly little damage. Energy is not created from nowhere, but comes from your car battery, in the parking lot. > But I 'fess that most of the little driving I did was off-road, where > capacity per weight matters more than peak output. I used to think > those weenies in the shopping centre carparks on weekends were just > that. (Hmm, I guess over here you can't do that sort of thing in that > sort of carpark, what with 7-day shopping and all.) I switched to gas (alcohol) 1/8 scale some ten years ago. Like the noise and the smell :-) ... >> Yup. The WDT board I am polishing the driver for alarms for low-voltage >> on >> a new, EXPENSIVE, rackmount CPU box. No, the WDT is not broken, but the >> 5V >> is really 4.73. You are right, you have to try hard to mess up... > > Have you tried adjusting the output on the supply? Like I said, PC > manufacturers are pretty stingy; it was probably factory-set at about > 35C and 90% RH with no more than a few minutes runtime. I just found this out minutes ago. Then I dod not recollect any adjustments in the power supply, then there is the obligatory excuse wto not honor the warranty sticker on the power supply. The n there is my boss who said ``you are software, not hardware. Let the hardware real engineers do hardware'' and who am I to make a lier out of such an important executive? ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 21:09:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24565 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:09:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24558 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:09:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id HAA04822; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:08:55 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <19980307070854.63344@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:08:54 +0200 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: ac199@hwcn.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donations. References: <34feb36e.6586660@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 06:34:46PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Tim Vanderhoek, were spotted writing this on Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 06:34:46PM -0500: > entertainment is highly distorted and I just really need to get > laid (what does this say of the primary participants, then?!), > but please, folks, let's add some real content to these messages. > Names! Catcalls! Evil wife-beating insinuations! Anything but > this bland "Voting will get my money" repeated over and over and > over and over. Uhm, this should be easy. Uhm, hrmm, John Kelly beats his wife! And, err, a moose once bit JKH's sister! It really hurt, you know. Ah well, it's no use. Not good at it at all. I think we can go back to "Voting will get my money now" :) -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 21:19:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25839 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:19:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25829 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02345; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:15:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803070515.VAA02345@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org cc: Karl Denninger , lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, Terry Lambert , Chuck Robey Subject: Re: Old farts blathering (was Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:11:24 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:15:34 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Hmm, I prefer the Varta 2.2Ah cells actually. The Sanyo ones have lots > > of "these are great" legends floating around, but the "really tricky" > > charger you're describing is basically just a box with a DC regulator > > and an energy polariser crystal, and I still never saw them create > > energy from nowhere. > > Not quite. A peak-detector charger actually pushes a lot of current into > the battery very quickly, with amazingly little damage. Energy is not > created from nowhere, but comes from your car battery, in the parking lot. Sure. Which is why the batteries have nominal lifetimes. 8) > > But I 'fess that most of the little driving I did was off-road, where > > capacity per weight matters more than peak output. I used to think > > those weenies in the shopping centre carparks on weekends were just > > that. (Hmm, I guess over here you can't do that sort of thing in that > > sort of carpark, what with 7-day shopping and all.) > > I switched to gas (alcohol) 1/8 scale some ten years ago. Like the noise > and the smell :-) People with real incomes are no fun. > .... > > >> Yup. The WDT board I am polishing the driver for alarms for low-voltage > >> on > >> a new, EXPENSIVE, rackmount CPU box. No, the WDT is not broken, but the > >> 5V > >> is really 4.73. You are right, you have to try hard to mess up... > > > > Have you tried adjusting the output on the supply? Like I said, PC > > manufacturers are pretty stingy; it was probably factory-set at about > > 35C and 90% RH with no more than a few minutes runtime. > > I just found this out minutes ago. Then I dod not recollect any > adjustments in the power supply, then there is the obligatory excuse > wto not honor the warranty sticker on the power supply. There are ways around this; either stick a screwdriver (oops, insulated adjusting tool 8) in through the ventilation slots (if it was designed), or drill a hole in the case where required. Take care not to remove the warranty label with the drill. This is, of course, sophistry. You could send it back under warranty... -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 21:24:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26182 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:24:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sendero.simon-shapiro.org (sendero-fddi.Simon-Shapiro.ORG [206.190.148.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26095 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:23:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from shimon@sendero-fxp0.simon-shapiro.org) Received: (qmail 24410 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Mar 1998 05:32:02 -0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3-alpha-021598 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199803070515.VAA02345@dingo.cdrom.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 21:32:02 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: shimon@simon-shapiro.org Organization: The Simon Shapiro Foundation From: Simon Shapiro To: Mike Smith Subject: Re: Old farts blathering (was Re: SCSI Bus redundancy... ) Cc: Chuck Robey , Terry Lambert , dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk, wilko@yedi.iaf.nl, julian@whistle.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, lada@ws2301.gud.siemens.at, Karl Denninger Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Mar-98 Mike Smith wrote: ... > People with real incomes are no fun. Did I mention the two helicopters? These are all from the days I had more money than brains and 6 fewer children. Now the money goes to formulas, diapers, food, etc. The computer in the R/C helicopter is really cool. touch screen, graphics, etc. ... > There are ways around this; either stick a screwdriver (oops, insulated > adjusting tool 8) in through the ventilation slots (if it was > designed), or drill a hole in the case where required. Take care not > to remove the warranty label with the drill. I should tell you about the genius who decided to hot-adjust a 10KW short wave transmitter with just such tool. He was quite dead when we found him. > This is, of course, sophistry. You could send it back under warranty... The American way. ---------- Sincerely Yours, Simon Shapiro Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG Voice: 503.799.2313 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 6 22:23:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01220 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:23:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from subcellar.mwci.net (subcellar.mwci.net [205.254.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01214; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:23:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jwalt@mwci.net) Received: from firewall.mwci.net (firewall.mwci.net [205.254.160.134]) by subcellar.mwci.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA11353; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:23:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:23:37 -0600 (CST) From: Jesse Walters To: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: mpeg Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of any mpeg views for X. What about avi files? Thanks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 7 07:49:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20203 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:49:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wakky.dyn.ml.org (lee@ppp-24-103.tidalwave.net [208.220.24.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20198 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 07:49:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@wakky.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from lee@localhost) by wakky.dyn.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01034; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:49:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980307104920.46285@wakky.dyn.ml.org> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:49:20 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Jesse Walters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mpeg Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from Jesse Walters on Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 12:23:37AM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2-RELEASE X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 07, 1998 at 12:23:37AM -0600, Jesse Walters wrote: > Anyone know of any mpeg views for X. What about avi files? > Thanks Look for xanim in the Ports; it does everything you want. -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | hcremean (at) vt.edu FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://wakky.dyn.ml.org/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 7 09:30:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27034 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:30:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26936 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:30:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.kiev.ua) Received: from Shevchenko.kiev.ua (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17628 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:27:57 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <35018397.39A0DC30@Shevchenko.kiev.ua> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:27:54 +0200 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Good method for bug fixing: [Fwd: GRANTS ON DBMS_ PACKAGES NOT EXPORTED] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------35F8033A7677B5A9357FEDDC" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------35F8033A7677B5A9357FEDDC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good method for bug fixing. -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA --------------35F8033A7677B5A9357FEDDC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from grad.kiev.ua (baby [10.0.0.11]) by gvinpin.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17161 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:01:06 +0200 Message-ID: <35017E9A.76C1AAED@grad.kiev.ua> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 19:06:34 +0200 From: "Morozov Igor U." Organization: GlavApu X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Subject: GRANTS ON DBMS_ PACKAGES NOT EXPORTED Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E2806F50B9B31743E6D641B5" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E2806F50B9B31743E6D641B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit file:/E|/bug/s447/b000116.htm -- Morozov U. Igor --------------E2806F50B9B31743E6D641B5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=koi8-r; name="b000116.htm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="b000116.htm" Content-Base: "file:/E|/bug/s447/b000116.htm" GRANTS ON DBMS_ PACKAGES NOT EXPORTED

GRANTS ON DBMS_ PACKAGES NOT EXPORTED



Bug No.:447692
Date:03-FEB-1997
Product:Oracle Server - Enterprise Edition V7
Version:7.3.2.3
Fixed in version:N/A
RDBMS version:7.3.2.3
Platform:SCO UNIX 386
Error:N/A
Status:92 - Closed, Not a Bug 
Customer requests reopen of Bug 304301, because it's still not fixed in latest
release.
Pls. let us know, if and how this issue will be addressed in the future.
--------------E2806F50B9B31743E6D641B5-- --------------35F8033A7677B5A9357FEDDC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message