From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 5 18:05:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11155 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:05:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11105 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:05:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10746; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:35:13 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA02463; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:35:12 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980406103511.29842@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:35:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Vanderhoek , Josef Grosch Cc: mp@ka.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I HATE FREEBSD (fwd) References: <19980404095122.05523@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sun, Apr 05, 1998 at 12:32:58AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 April 1998 at 0:32:58 -0500, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > >>>> to call NEC technical support and they told me to repartion the Hard >>>> Drive. Then I had to run my product recovery cd where it formated the > > Hehe. They [NEC tech support] may just possibly have known > better, too, but after having that attitude shoved at them, I > can't say I blame them if they did. ;-) :-) In fact, I can understand people getting upset after having wiped out their hard disk. The original message was vague enough that it's possible that he really did overwrite the whole disk when trying to install FreeBSD. I wonder if we should put a big warning sign in the booklet that goes with the CD-ROMs. WARNING This software repartitions your hard disk. Use it wrong and you can suffer massive data loss. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 5 18:11:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12553 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:11:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1649.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12490 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00225; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:08:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Greg Lehey cc: Tim Vanderhoek , Josef Grosch , mp@ka.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I HATE FREEBSD (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19980406103511.29842@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > install FreeBSD. I wonder if we should put a big warning sign in the > booklet that goes with the CD-ROMs. > > WARNING > > This software repartitions your hard disk. Use it wrong and you can > suffer massive data loss. We use to have one, and I distinctly remember reading it when I installed FreeBSD, but I think it might have been removed with the recent FOO.TXT patches. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 5 22:45:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:45:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcc.wcc.net (wcc.wcc.net [208.6.232.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25416 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 22:45:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from piquan@wcc.wcc.net) Received: from detlev.UUCP (tnt13.wcc.net [208.10.139.13]) by wcc.wcc.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15478; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:41:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01958; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:37:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 00:37:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804060537.AAA01958@detlev.UUCP> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD mailing list guru From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org References: <199804060109.SAA02944@ns.frihet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've got an idea for a patch to Majordomo that should keep people from getting multiple copies of cross-posted messages. A similar patch may also keep people from getting multiple copies of msgs sent to them personally as well as the list. But, I don't know who the Majordomo owner of the FreeBSD lists is. Would said owner kindly privately email me? Best, joelh -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 6 06:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25641 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from toth.ferginc.com (toth.ferginc.com [205.139.23.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25631 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 06:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from branson@toth.ferginc.com) Received: (from branson@localhost) by toth.ferginc.com (You_Can/Keep_Guessing) id JAA17015; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980406093813.11688@toth.FergInc.com> Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:38:13 -0400 From: Branson Matheson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Who is who Reply-To: Branson.Matheson@FergInc.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Organization: Ferguson Enterprises, Inc. X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.2-RELEASE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So I got a snap not to long ago.. and was noting the cariactures in the included leaflet.. I was wondering who is who? ( would that be jordan to the far right? ) ;-) -branson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 6 18:26:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21076 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt050n33.san.rr.com [204.210.31.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20895 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:26:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Received: from san.rr.com (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04262; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:26:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@san.rr.com) Message-ID: <352980C8.E7F2D048@san.rr.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:26:33 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE-0325 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joelh@gnu.org CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing list guru References: <199804060109.SAA02944@ns.frihet.com> <199804060537.AAA01958@detlev.UUCP> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Joel Ray Holveck wrote: > > I've got an idea for a patch to Majordomo that should keep people from > getting multiple copies of cross-posted messages. A similar patch may > also keep people from getting multiple copies of msgs sent to them > personally as well as the list. > > But, I don't know who the Majordomo owner of the FreeBSD lists is. > Would said owner kindly privately email me? All requests of this type should be sent to postmaster@freebsd.org. I would also be interested in a copy of the patch, and I'm sure that they'd be interested at majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. Thanks, Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest *** Internet Relay Chat server. 5,328 clients and still growing. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 6 22:27:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21227 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:27:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcc.wcc.net (wcc.wcc.net [208.6.232.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21216 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:27:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from piquan@wcc.wcc.net) Received: from detlev.UUCP (tnt141.wcc.net [208.10.139.141]) by wcc.wcc.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08214; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:23:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA05955; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:27:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:27:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804070527.AAA05955@detlev.UUCP> To: Studded@san.rr.com CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <352980C8.E7F2D048@san.rr.com> (message from Studded on Mon, 06 Apr 1998 18:26:33 -0700) Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing list guru From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org References: <199804060109.SAA02944@ns.frihet.com> <199804060537.AAA01958@detlev.UUCP> <352980C8.E7F2D048@san.rr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> I've got an idea for a patch to Majordomo that should keep people from >> getting multiple copies of cross-posted messages. A similar patch may >> also keep people from getting multiple copies of msgs sent to them >> personally as well as the list. >> But, I don't know who the Majordomo owner of the FreeBSD lists is. >> Would said owner kindly privately email me? > All requests of this type should be sent to postmaster@freebsd.org. Alright. I wasn't sure if that would be relayed to somebody at Walnut Creek who didn't know, or if it would go to someone useful. > I would also be interested in a copy of the patch, and I'm sure that > they'd be interested at majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. It turns out I was making an invalid assumption. I am still pursuing the same goal, and will notify you if a solution still seems workable. Happy hacking, joelh -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 03:02:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28752 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:02:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28744 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12660; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:32:24 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA07873; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:32:23 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980407193223.59144@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:32:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: feedback@xfree86.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Changes to X11 licensing with X11R6.4 References: <19980403132554.14962@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980403132554.14962@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>; from David Dawes on Fri, Apr 03, 1998 at 01:25:54PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (following up to -chat on the FreeBSD side) On Fri, 3 April 1998 at 13:25:54 +1000, David Dawes wrote: > First, I apologise for the cross post, and for posting at all about this > subject to these lists, but I'm looking for some feedback on this issue > from the FreeBSD community. Please respect the Reply-To line, and don't > pursue the discussion about this on the FreeBSD lists. > > As some of you are probably aware, The Open Group (TOG) has recently > announced new licensing conditions to go with their new X11R6.4 release. > This change means that XFree86 needs to make some decisions about our > future direction. We have some basic info on our home page > (http://www.xfree86.org/), and links to the new licensing information on > TOG's web site. If you have anything to say about this in the XFree86 > context, please take a look at that info, and send you comments to > feedback@xfree86.org. Well, that got a lot of response, didn't it? I've taken a look at the FAQ. I couldn't be bothered to read the legalese, so I may have missed something important. From what I see, it all hinges on the definition of commercial use. If they mean companies who sell an X add-on package for their product for > $100, I think it's entirely reasonable that they should get their $0.25 or so royalty. If they mean companies like WC that just put it on the CD-ROM with no value added, I don't think that's reasonable. But from what I see, they're restricting this to the former case. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 03:24:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02279 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02271 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA14511; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804071024.DAA14511@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: feedback@xfree86.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Changes to X11 licensing with X11R6.4 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:32:23 +0930." <19980407193223.59144@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 03:24:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Also, does it mean that Motif is going to be cheaper 8) If it means that companies such as WC have to shelved thousands of dollars for a license then forget it -- I think we will probably stay behind . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 03:52:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05320 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:52:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic43.pm06.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05315 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id DAA17828; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980407035224.25848@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 03:52:24 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Greg Lehey , feedback@xfree86.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Changes to X11 licensing with X11R6.4 Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <19980407193223.59144@freebie.lemis.com> <199804071024.DAA14511@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <199804071024.DAA14511@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 03:24:11AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 03:24:11AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Also, does it mean that Motif is going to be cheaper 8) Two different products. I don't think a change in X11R6.4 royalties is going to have much effect on cost of Motif. > If it means that companies such as WC have to shelved thousands of dollars > for a license then forget it -- I think we will probably stay behind . I do not agree. If you read the FAQ on TOG's web page (http://www.camb.opengroup.org/tech/desktop/x/xlicensefaq.htm) the cost to for-profit resellers is $7,500 per year for up to 50,000 units per year for non-members. Basic math says this is $0.15 per unit. For members the price drops to $0.10 per unit. I sincerely hope the Walnut Creeks profit margin is not not so slim as to be hurt by an increase of $0.15 per unit shipped. An increase in price to cover this cost will bearly be noticed, even by cheap bastards like myself. We can either appeal to TOG for a non-profit status or we can just pony up the lousy 15 cents per unit. Com'on, you can knock over a kid in the street for 15 cents. Josef "Just my $0.15" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 08:25:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08476 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:25:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08460 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29054; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 08:24:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199804071524.IAA29054@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Changes to X11 licensing with X11R6.4 In-Reply-To: <19980407035224.25848.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mooseriver.com> References: <199804071024.DAA14511@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 03:24:11AM -0700 Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <19980407035224.25848.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mooseriver.com> you write: >I do not agree. If you read the FAQ on TOG's web page >(http://www.camb.opengroup.org/tech/desktop/x/xlicensefaq.htm) the cost to >for-profit resellers is $7,500 per year for up to 50,000 units per year for >non-members. Basic math says this is $0.15 per unit. For members the price >drops to $0.10 per unit. I sincerely hope the Walnut Creeks profit margin is >not not so slim as to be hurt by an increase of $0.15 per unit shipped. An >increase in price to cover this cost will bearly be noticed, even by cheap >bastards like myself. Uh, no. First of all: everyone who buys a CD-ROM must agree to the license. That means paperwork. WC must now keep track of sales and give this information to a third party. (Admittedly, they do this already to a degree, for Chuckie.) Go ask, say, Xi, about what it's like to sell Motif. I read the license. It's a binary-only license. I couldn't find anything in it about selling source licenses. I truly hope I missed something. Lastly, it's morally objectionable. I won't pay it. Ever. Not to The Open Group. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 12:23:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA20880 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20815 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:23:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18729 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:23:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804071923.MAA18729@rah.star-gate.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Changes to X11 licensing with X11R6.4 In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:24:46 PDT." <199804071524.IAA29054@kithrup.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <18726.891977013.1@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 12:23:33 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The money part bothers me however not having the sources bothers me even more. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 14:26:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20574 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gal.logic.it (gal.logic.it [195.120.151.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA20479 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@logic.it) Received: from [195.31.188.216] by gal.logic.it (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id fa639969 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:13:45 +0200 Received: (qmail 707 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Apr 1998 21:12:01 -0000 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:12:01 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Netscape for Qt (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, this seems pretty nice. I personally did a project with Qt and liked it very much. Please note that the Qt graphical toolkit is in the ports. Marco --- "If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, the first woodpecker would destroy civilization". Weinberg's Law. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:50:50 +0200 From: info@troll.no To: qt-announce@troll.no, qt-interest@troll.no Subject: Netscape for Qt FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: TROLL TECH PRESENTS Qt-BASED VERSION OF NETSCAPE NAVIGATOR 5.0 (April 6, 1998) Troll Tech today released the QtScape demonstration program to the public. A team of seven programmers have in five days ported to Qt the newly released Netscape Navigator web browser source code. Qt is Troll Tech's multi-platform Graphical User Interface (GUI) toolkit. The free QtScape is released as a "proof of concept" that Qt as a platform provides all the functionality required for making state-of-the-art GUI applications, as well as allowing rapid application development. "When Netscape Communications Corporation earlier this year announced that it would release the source code of Communicator 5.0, we decided that this was the perfect opportunity to show the world the flexibility and effectiveness of our GUI toolkit" said Eirik Eng, CEO of Troll Tech. "By giving a team of seven programmers only five days - a "mythical man-month" - to achieve a functioning Qt port of Netscape Navigator, we wanted to demonstrate the ease and speed of developing graphical user interfaces with Qt." The QtScape development team, consisting of five Troll Tech senior engineers as well as two programmers volunteering from the free software community. Netscape released the Communicator source code March 31, and the team came together the day after to face an immense task: to replace the 500 000 lines of C and C++ code in the X-Windows/Motif and Microsoft Windows specific parts of Communicator. Nonetheless, QtScape implements almost all the main web browser functionality of Netscape Navigator. In some areas, the port improves on the original: The pages are drawn noticeably faster, and the color handling on 256-color screens is better. "We were confident that we would achieve a satisfactory result, although the Communicator source code was not easily penetrated" said Haavard Nord, president of Troll Tech. "This represents definite evidence of the power and flexibility of Qt, as well as a demonstration of the skills of our programmers. I am very satisfied." QtScape is available at http://www.troll.no/qtscape/. It is presented as a Qt demonstration program only, not a Troll Tech product. The full source code is released under the Netscape Public License, which allows free distribution and modification. Further information about the release of Netscape Communicator is available at http://www.mozilla.org. One of the freeware developers, Kalle Dalheimer, is also available for Qt-related contract work. He can be contacted at kalle@dalheimer.hh.eunet.de. Troll Tech AS is a computer software company specializing in multi-platform C++ libraries for graphical user interfaces. Its flagship product Qt is used as a basis for successful commercial applications world wide. Troll Tech is located in Oslo, Norway. Further information is available at http://www.troll.no. Netscape, Navigator and Communicator are trademarks of Netscape Communications Corporation. Qt is a trademark of Troll Tech AS. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 15:51:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11362 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:51:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11119 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:50:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id SAA15978 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:50:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Swiss grocery store server vomits after *800* measly users :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What a freaking joke. These servers get 800 measly users and fall over? What the heck could they possibly have been running :) They had multiple servers of something and they couldnt do 800 connects between them? Hrmmm I dont know even know an OS that cant do that on MULTIPLE servers even NewTrash could. Interesting http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/11501.html Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 20:35:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04682 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04509 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-85.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.85]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA29354 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:35:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA07616 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:05:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804080305.WAA07616@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Message from Kris Kirby of "Tue, 07 Apr 1998 16:03:49 CDT." <352A94B5.154AD372@ninbox.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:05:12 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat. Kris Kirby writes: > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > 4. support for multiple cards (you can have two milleniums in a system) > > Come on, let's see that working under FreeBSD. A PC with two monitors? > At least we'd be gaining on the Macs. How so? Personally I never had more than 4 monitors on one Mac. Decided I was getting irradiated too much. Installation was trivial, simply plugged another Nubus card in, connected the monitor, and on power up the Mac guessed where to put the new monitor in relationship to the others. A little shuffling around in the Monitors Control Panel informed the Mac where I had phyically placed the new one in relation to the others. Was mighty useful to have schematics up on one 19" monochrome monitor, PCB layout on a 19" color, and source code on the 13" color. Got tired of the 13", removed it, and found places on the other monitors to put my MPW source code windows when I needed to see/edit source code. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 20:41:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06030 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:41:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06020 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:41:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13650; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:10:59 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA12139; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:10:58 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408131058.01172@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:10:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter References: <199804080305.WAA07616@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080305.WAA07616@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 10:05:12PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 22:05:12 -0500, David Kelly wrote: > Moved to -chat. > > Kris Kirby writes: >> Amancio Hasty wrote: >> >>> 4. support for multiple cards (you can have two milleniums in a system) >> >> Come on, let's see that working under FreeBSD. A PC with two monitors? >> At least we'd be gaining on the Macs. > > How so? Personally I never had more than 4 monitors on one Mac. Decided > I was getting irradiated too much. Installation was trivial, simply > plugged another Nubus card in, connected the monitor, and on power up > the Mac guessed where to put the new monitor in relationship to the > others. A little shuffling around in the Monitors Control Panel informed > the Mac where I had phyically placed the new one in relation to the > others. How did you arrange them? I have a 20" monitor I would like to add to my machine, but I can't figure out where to put it. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 20:41:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06213 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:41:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06149 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-85.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.85]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA09399 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:41:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA07889 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:41:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804080341.WAA07889@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Small Request In-reply-to: Message from dannyman of "Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:02:09 CDT." <19980406220209.58577@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:41:30 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat. dannyman writes: > On Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 06:43:04PM -0800, Wilfredo Sanchez wrote: > > > Go to www.dejanews.com and search for "Apple FreeBSD Wilfredo" > > > :) > > > > Yeah, OK, it won't kill me. I'll just keep it in mind. Thanks. :-) > > Good luck with Rhapsody, btw. > > You guys don't intend to make your source code public, are you? While we're at it, theres this issue of X11 R6.4 license fees. If I'm going to have to pay for a GUI then I'd like NeXTStep/OpenStep/Rhapsody to have a serious chance at my money. That is, if there is a chance Rahapsody will sell for less than an accelerated X... Am praying Apple doesn't make the Microsoft Mistake(tm) by splitting their OS resources. Last thing Apple needs is a Server OS *and* a stripped OS for the menials. Shipping two OS's means one will be considered a lesser product than the other. Problem is nobody will agree as to which is the lesser so both will be. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 21:39:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12962 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12933 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:39:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-72.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.72]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA12985; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:39:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA08113; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:30:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804080430.XAA08113@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:10:58 +0930." <19980408131058.01172@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 23:30:59 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 22:05:12 -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > How so? Personally I never had more than 4 monitors on one Mac. Decided > > I was getting irradiated too much. Installation was trivial, simply > > plugged another Nubus card in, connected the monitor, and on power up > > the Mac guessed where to put the new monitor in relationship to the > > others. A little shuffling around in the Monitors Control Panel informed > > the Mac where I had phyically placed the new one in relation to the > > others. > > How did you arrange them? I have a 20" monitor I would like to add to > my machine, but I can't figure out where to put it. Had the two 19" monitors side by side. Color on the far left, monochrome on the right. One was on another table the other was on a 30" x 60" table I built myself. The Mac IIvx was under a shelf (to the right of the big monitors) which was only about 36" long (to leave room for the 19" monitor). The 13" monitor was placed on top of this shelf. The 19" monitors each had a separate Nubus card, the 13" used the built in Mac IIvx video. None of my 3 monitors ran the same resolution. The 19" color was 1024x768x24 bits, 19" mono was something like 1152x892, and 13" color was 640x480x16 bits. I aligned the top edges of the 19" monitors together, the top of the 13" monitor appeared a couple of inches above the top of the 19" mono, but to the right. Think I usually ran the color monitors at 8 bits for faster drawing. PCB CAD doesn't need all that many colors. :-) Keyboard and mouse stayed pretty close to the 19" monochrome monitor. Color 19" (which was on another table) was turned in toward the keyboard sorta forming a cockpit. Guess the color monitor was 45 degrees to my left and about 12" in "front" of the mono. Poor little Mac "only" had 20MB of RAM and a LocalTalk network connection. It was this system I initially downloaded SLS Linux with. Wrote the boot floppies using SoftPC to run rawrite. AccessPC wrote the bulk of the install floppies in MS-DOS format. Installed on a 486DX33 8MB 240MB HD on the same table as the 19" color monitor. Later switched to Slackware. Then Linux trashed its filesystem one time too many, I had heard of FreeBSD and gave FreeBSD 2.0.0R a shot. Never looked back. That was February '95, I think. Or was it 1994? Has it been that long? It was '91 or '92 that I heard of this thing called "386BSD". Wish I'd kept my 0.0 and 0.1 floppies, not that I have time to play with them. Later Linux sure did look advanced, it had shared libraries. Even later when I returned to BSD, FreeBSD sure did feel familiar. And this is from someone who spends a lot of time running SGI Irix systems. Did you know a Mac IIvx running ZTerm can send files via zmodem to an old Linux 486DX33 with a 16450 UART and IDE HD at 38,400? The Linux system will drop packets every 30 seconds when it sync's its filesystems. 19,200 yeilds about the same thruput but without errors. Never tried the same thing with FreeBSD. Have never used a multi-headed X server. How does it establish the relationship between monitors? How do you move the mouse from one to the next? On the Mac, the mouse simply slides from monitor to monitor. If there is not a monitor adjacent to the edge you try to move the mouse off, then the mouse doesn't move off the desktop. Fun thing to do is split a window between multiple monitors. Type right off one monitor onto the next. If one wants to see what something looked like in monochrome and color, that window could be placed half on one, half on the other, for instant results. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 22:39:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22052 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22046 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13768; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:08:50 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA12764; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:08:49 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408150849.45215@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:08:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Kelly Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter References: <199804080430.XAA08113@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080430.XAA08113@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 11:30:59PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 23:30:59 -0500, David Kelly wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 22:05:12 -0500, David Kelly wrote: >>> How so? Personally I never had more than 4 monitors on one Mac. Decided >>> I was getting irradiated too much. Installation was trivial, simply >>> plugged another Nubus card in, connected the monitor, and on power up >>> the Mac guessed where to put the new monitor in relationship to the >>> others. A little shuffling around in the Monitors Control Panel informed >>> the Mac where I had phyically placed the new one in relation to the >>> others. >> >> How did you arrange them? I have a 20" monitor I would like to add to >> my machine, but I can't figure out where to put it. > > Had the two 19" monitors side by side. > > (snip) Ah, your requirements are different. I currently have a 17" on the floor below the desk to my left, but I only turn it on if the system it is connected to feels unhappy. Otherwise I have the 2 21" monitors side by side, and I wouldn't want to spread them. The only possibility I can think of is to put the third (20") above, but that would mean looking a long way up. > Have never used a multi-headed X server. How does it establish the > relationship between monitors? unix:0.0 and unix:0.1. The config file contains a section for each monitor, and the numbers are assigned in the order in which they appear in the config file. > How do you move the mouse from one to the next? Sideways. There's a sideways wraparound. This makes virtual screens (larger display than glass, and panning) a real pain, if it wasn't before. Otherwise, though, it runs fine. > On the Mac, the mouse simply slides from monitor to monitor. That's the way. > If there is not a monitor adjacent to the edge you try to move the > mouse off, then the mouse doesn't move off the desktop. XiG has (or had, at the time) wraparound. I don't think it's a good idea, and I said so to Thomas Röll, who agreed and said he was going to change it. > Fun thing to do is split a window between multiple monitors. Type > right off one monitor onto the next. If one wants to see what > something looked like in monochrome and color, that window could be > placed half on one, half on the other, for instant results. :-) XiG can't (couldn't) do that. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 23:20:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26473 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (host77-51.airnet.net [209.64.77.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26451 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@ninbox.ml.org) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00641; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:19:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <352B16EA.1A73DE9E@ninbox.ml.org> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:19:22 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Reply-To: kris@airnet.net Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly CC: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter References: <199804080305.WAA07616@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > Moved to -chat. > > Kris Kirby writes: > > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > > 4. support for multiple cards (you can have two milleniums in a system) > > > > Come on, let's see that working under FreeBSD. A PC with two monitors? > > At least we'd be gaining on the Macs. > > How so? Personally I never had more than 4 monitors on one Mac. Ah, Ambiguity. I am sad to say that I was referring to closing the gap between a PC (1 monitor) and a Mac with God knows how many they can have. I personally would have liked to see the capability earlier. The Best I can do is a serial terminal at 19200 (it's limit, not the machine). At least when demonstrating you can show that it is two user if not multi-user. (ps -au, damn, how could one person run so much! [not talking about root.]) ... But I can't afford two monitors anyway :-) And I sure as hell don't want to run Win-95/NT/98/etc. I will run 3.11, but that is only because I happen to like it. I run DOS once and a while too. But hey, who ever said a sane person could be a un*x junkie. Since this *is* chat, I thought I'd reflect on what I think is going to become of Rhapsody: It will be a UN*X smash. Running on low-priced hardware (compared to a SGI or Slowlaris box), equipped with (personal opinion) one of the most stable kernels on the planet... And with PowerPC speeds, the RISC processor (Hmm, doesn't SGI use those?). I think it is taking advantage of superior technology. But that is my personal (obviously unhumble) opinion. Flames >> /dev/null. -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 7 23:23:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26767 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:23:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (host77-51.airnet.net [209.64.77.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA26758 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:22:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@ninbox.ml.org) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00691; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:22:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <352B17B8.F8C5DD71@ninbox.ml.org> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:22:49 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Reply-To: kris@airnet.net Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Small Request References: <199804080341.WAA07889@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > Moved to -chat. > While we're at it, theres this issue of X11 R6.4 license fees. What, me pay? I thought this was a *free* UN*X clone... -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 00:24:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06634 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:24:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06625 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:24:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00356; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804080724.AAA00356@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: kris@airnet.net cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Small Request In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:22:49 CDT." <352B17B8.F8C5DD71@ninbox.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:24:42 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We won't pay . David Dawes just announced on comp.windows.x.i386unix that XFree86 will stay at XFree86.3 Given the history of XFree86 and its volunteer work force it makes sense. Cheers, Amancio > David Kelly wrote: > > > > Moved to -chat. > > > While we're at it, theres this issue of X11 R6.4 license fees. > > What, me pay? I thought this was a *free* UN*X clone... > > -- > > Kris Kirby > ------------------------------------------- > TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 00:25:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06828 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06803 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id AAA26190; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:25:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:25:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jan Koum X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Greg Lehey cc: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-Reply-To: <19980408150849.45215@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >Ah, your requirements are different. I currently have a 17" on the >floor below the desk to my left, but I only turn it on if the system >it is connected to feels unhappy. Otherwise I have the 2 21" monitors >side by side, and I wouldn't want to spread them. The only Wait. You don't have any distortion on the screen from having two huge monitors so close to each other? At work I have a 21" on FreeBSD and 19" on Sparc and I have to keep them at least 3 feet a part or else the screen on one (or both) start to "jiggle" (shake). While we are talking monitors. An odd problem I run into with my BSD machine. It is a Dell PII 266 with Matrox Millennium II AGP card. It is connected to the 21" Gateway Vivitron monitor. When I run 4.1 AccelX, I get a little yellow spot (about 2x2 inches) in the top left corner. Don't think it is AccelX since even though it is hard to see in the normal tty, the yellow cloud is still there. I'll try using vidcontrol next time to be sure. I tried changing the monitor withe same one -- still there. I tried changing the monitor cable -- still there. I switched from normal DB cable to BNC type connector -- still there. Could it be the card?!? Thanks, -- Yan >possibility I can think of is to put the third (20") above, but that >would mean looking a long way up. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 00:38:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09712 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09702 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13898; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:08:24 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA13309; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:08:23 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408170823.30495@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:08:23 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jan Koum Cc: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter References: <19980408150849.45215@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan Koum on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:25:09AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:25:09 -0700, Jan Koum wrote: > On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Ah, your requirements are different. I currently have a 17" on the >> floor below the desk to my left, but I only turn it on if the system >> it is connected to feels unhappy. Otherwise I have the 2 21" monitors >> side by side, and I wouldn't want to spread them. The only > > Wait. You don't have any distortion on the screen from having two > huge monitors so close to each other? No. > At work I have a 21" on FreeBSD and 19" on Sparc and I have to keep > them at least 3 feet a part or else the screen on one (or both) > start to "jiggle" (shake). I used to have that with some older monitors, but I tuned it out with judicious adjustment of the scan frequencies. > While we are talking monitors. An odd problem I run into with my > BSD machine. It is a Dell PII 266 with Matrox Millennium II AGP card. It is > connected to the 21" Gateway Vivitron monitor. When I run 4.1 AccelX, I > get a little yellow spot (about 2x2 inches) in the top left corner. Don't > think it is AccelX since even though it is hard to see in the normal tty, > the yellow cloud is still there. I'll try using vidcontrol next time to be > sure. I tried changing the monitor withe same one -- still there. I tried > changing the monitor cable -- still there. I switched from normal DB cable > to BNC type connector -- still there. Could it be the card?!? I'd guess it's overheating. Is it there after the screen blanker has been on for a while? Try turning down the intensity and see if it goes away. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 00:41:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10376 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10368 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00478; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804080741.AAA00478@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:08:49 +0930." <19980408150849.45215@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:41:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA10371 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > XiG can't (couldn't) do that. I don't see any reason why his X server can't split a window between two monitors then again I don't know Xig Xserver internals 8) (Xig is a commercial product and does not make the sources available). Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 00:48:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11730 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:48:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA11677 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13915; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:18:12 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA13356; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:18:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408171811.55063@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:18:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty Cc: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter References: <19980408150849.45215@freebie.lemis.com> <199804080741.AAA00478@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080741.AAA00478@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:41:03AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:41:03 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> XiG can't (couldn't) do that. > > I don't see any reason why his X server can't split a window between > two monitors then again I don't know Xig Xserver internals 8) > (Xig is a commercial product and does not make the sources available). It doesn't fit in the X hierarchy. A real X display is managed by the server in specific ways, and a window always belongs to a specific display. This also means that you can't move a window from one display to another. Having said that, I believe there are servers that spread a single display across multiple monitors. This isn't really the "X way". I've never used one. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 01:07:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA13864 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:07:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13858 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:07:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00594; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804080807.BAA00594@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:18:11 +0930." <19980408171811.55063@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:07:48 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Oh, I used to hack on X servers and I think we should be able to do it at the very least we should be able to spread a display across multiple monitors with the same resolution and color depth. The more I think about it the easier it gets ... which makes me wonder why we don't have such functionality. Cheers, Amancio > On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:41:03 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> XiG can't (couldn't) do that. > > > > I don't see any reason why his X server can't split a window between > > two monitors then again I don't know Xig Xserver internals 8) > > (Xig is a commercial product and does not make the sources available). > > It doesn't fit in the X hierarchy. A real X display is managed by the > server in specific ways, and a window always belongs to a specific > display. This also means that you can't move a window from one > display to another. > > Having said that, I believe there are servers that spread a single > display across multiple monitors. This isn't really the "X way". > I've never used one. > > Greg > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 01:16:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15147 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15092 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13976; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:45:49 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA13496; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:45:48 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408174548.61565@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:45:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty , kris@airnet.net Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Small Request References: <352B17B8.F8C5DD71@ninbox.ml.org> <199804080724.AAA00356@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080724.AAA00356@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 12:24:42AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:24:42 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> David Kelly wrote: >>> >>> Moved to -chat. >> >>> While we're at it, theres this issue of X11 R6.4 license fees. >> >> What, me pay? I thought this was a *free* UN*X clone... > > We won't pay . David Dawes just announced on comp.windows.x.i386unix > that XFree86 will stay at XFree86.3 Yes, it's also at http://www.xfree86.org/pr-980407.html > Given the history of XFree86 and its volunteer work force it makes sense. I don't understand [yet]. My understanding from the FAQ was that the XFree86 group was explicitly excluded from paying the fees. Unfortunately, the link from the XFree86 home page was incorrect, and I can't find the relevant information on the OpenGroup website. How I wish people would specify the correct URLs... Ah, here it is--I found it last Friday on a different machine: http://www.camb.opengroup.org/tech/desktop/x/xlicensefaq.htm. It states specifically (answer to second question): X Window System technology continues to be free to the "free" community. We've heard rumblings that this change will force suppliers of "free" technology to stop shipping X11. We don't agree. Organizations like XFree86 will continue to be able to distribute X as they do today. But, companies who take the "free" technology and sell it, will not. Companies making money distributing X Window System technology should support its development. Many do not today. The end result is that there is not enough funds to keep it going. The "free" community may feels they want to reimplement the technology so they can give it away to other companies to sell. That could fragment the industry. OK, I'll look more carefully at the legalese. I've also looked more carefully at David's original message and discovered that he had asked us not to discuss it in the FreeBSD lists. Sorry about that, David--I missed it, and since I didn't want to reply to the lists you mentioned, I didn't even notice that there was a specific Reply-To: I think we should respect David's request and close the discussion. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 01:20:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15996 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15984 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:20:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13984; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:50:09 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA13521; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:50:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980408175008.11349@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:50:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty Cc: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter References: <19980408171811.55063@freebie.lemis.com> <199804080807.BAA00594@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804080807.BAA00594@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 01:07:48AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 1:07:48 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:41:03 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >>>> XiG can't (couldn't) do that. >>> >>> I don't see any reason why his X server can't split a window between >>> two monitors then again I don't know Xig Xserver internals 8) >>> (Xig is a commercial product and does not make the sources available). >> >> It doesn't fit in the X hierarchy. A real X display is managed by the >> server in specific ways, and a window always belongs to a specific >> display. This also means that you can't move a window from one >> display to another. >> >> Having said that, I believe there are servers that spread a single >> display across multiple monitors. This isn't really the "X way". >> I've never used one. > > Oh, I used to hack on X servers and I think we should be able to do it at > the very least we should be able to spread a display across multiple > monitors with the same resolution and color depth. The more I think > about it the easier it gets ... which makes me wonder why we don't > have such functionality. Go for it! I'll certainly be eternally grateful (well, a few weeks, anyway :-) Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 01:27:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA17880 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17813 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA00726; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804080826.BAA00726@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: David Kelly , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 17:50:08 +0930." <19980408175008.11349@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:26:56 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 1:07:48 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> On Wed, 8 April 1998 at 0:41:03 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >>>> XiG can't (couldn't) do that. > >>> > >>> I don't see any reason why his X server can't split a window between > >>> two monitors then again I don't know Xig Xserver internals 8) > >>> (Xig is a commercial product and does not make the sources available). > >> > >> It doesn't fit in the X hierarchy. A real X display is managed by the > >> server in specific ways, and a window always belongs to a specific > >> display. This also means that you can't move a window from one > >> display to another. > >> > >> Having said that, I believe there are servers that spread a single > >> display across multiple monitors. This isn't really the "X way". > >> I've never used one. > > > > Oh, I used to hack on X servers and I think we should be able to do it at > > the very least we should be able to spread a display across multiple > > monitors with the same resolution and color depth. The more I think > > about it the easier it gets ... which makes me wonder why we don't > > have such functionality. > > Go for it! I'll certainly be eternally grateful (well, a few weeks, > anyway :-) > > Greg Nope, thats for others to tackle . Lets say that is for the second generation or third generation X server hackers if they want to . I have done more than a fair contribution in this area. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 08:34:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22030 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22003 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:34:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA16875 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:35:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma016869; Wed, 8 Apr 98 08:34:57 -0700 Message-ID: <352B98A7.D735FAEA@partsnow.com> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:32:55 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Interesting correlation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The classically-minded among us may have noted a new TV ad for > Microsoft's Internet Explorer e-mail program which uses the > musical theme of the "Confutatis Maledictis" from Mozart's > Requiem. > > "Where do we want to go today?" is the cheery line on the screen. > Meanwhile, the chorus sings "Confutatis maledictis, flammis > acribus addictis," which means: > > "The damned and the accursed are convicted to flames of hell." > -- From the Linux Newsletter put out by WGS. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 09:14:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29588 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29569 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09067; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:17:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980408121728.04337@vmunix.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:17:28 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: don@partsnow.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting correlation References: <352B98A7.D735FAEA@partsnow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <352B98A7.D735FAEA@partsnow.com>; from Don Wilde on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:32:55AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id JAA29573 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:32:55AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > > > The classically-minded among us may have noted a new TV ad for > > Microsoft's Internet Explorer e-mail program which uses the > > musical theme of the "Confutatis Maledictis" from Mozart's > > Requiem. > > > > "Where do we want to go today?" is the cheery line on the screen. > > Meanwhile, the chorus sings "Confutatis maledictis, flammis > > acribus addictis," which means: > > > > "The damned and the accursed are convicted to flames of hell." Wow. This is the best Bill Gates = Satan correlation I've seen yet! :-) -Mark > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo >  -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 11:50:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00573 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:50:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gras-varg.worldgate.com (skafte@gras-varg.worldgate.com [198.161.84.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00444; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skafte@worldgate.com) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by gras-varg.worldgate.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id MAA14087; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:50:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980408125035.19462@worldgate.com> Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:50:35 -0600 From: Greg Skafte To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: why are we still using ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 Organization: WorldGate Inc. X-PGP-Fingerprint: 42 9C 2C A8 4D 2B C9 C4 7D B6 00 B0 50 47 20 97 X-URL: http://gras-varg.worldgate.com/~skafte Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Outta curiosity why are we still using the 1.8.6 version of ncurses when there is 4.2.x out and has been for a while .... its been a nagging thorn to most of us mutt fanatics .... yes I know I can compile my own copy but its a pain maintaining 2 versions of ncurses and I don't want to replace it out of simple fear of all the other things that might break ... -- Email: skafte@worldgate.com Voice: +403 413 1910 Fax: +403 421 4929 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 16:32:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10400 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10395 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:32:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id QAA28389; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:32:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jan Koum X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Mark Mayo cc: don@partsnow.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Interesting correlation In-Reply-To: <19980408121728.04337@vmunix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, there is another typo of commercial which has a song which goes something like this: "We could be heros" -- after which they show people running NT and Win95. I guess those people are heros. To pay money for such an OS. Ohh wait.. it is idiots. I got the two mixed up. Sorry, -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: >On Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 08:32:55AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: >> > >> > The classically-minded among us may have noted a new TV ad for >> > Microsoft's Internet Explorer e-mail program which uses the >> > musical theme of the "Confutatis Maledictis" from Mozart's >> > Requiem. >> > >> > "Where do we want to go today?" is the cheery line on the screen. >> > Meanwhile, the chorus sings "Confutatis maledictis, flammis >> > acribus addictis," which means: >> > >> > "The damned and the accursed are convicted to flames of hell." > >Wow. This is the best Bill Gates = Satan correlation I've seen yet! :-) > >-Mark > > >> oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * >> o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ >> V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] >> /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo >>  > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com > RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark > > finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs > at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 16:52:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12665 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:52:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6464.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12630 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00248; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:50:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:50:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Greg Skafte cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: why are we still using ? In-Reply-To: <19980408125035.19462@worldgate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [inappropriate X-post deleted] On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Greg Skafte wrote: > Outta curiosity why are we still using the 1.8.6 version of ncurses > when there is 4.2.x out and has been for a while .... its been > a nagging thorn to most of us mutt fanatics .... 4.2.x hasn't been "officially" out for that long... > yes I know I can compile my own copy but its a pain maintaining 2 versions > of ncurses and I don't want to replace it out of simple fear of all the > other things that might break ... There is an ncurses port submission which I don't think has been committed, yet. I'm not sure that it's for the 4* version, but perhaps the maintainer of mutt should make mutt depend on it. Even with ncurses 4* in the system, we always strip a fair bit of stuff out of it... -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 18:44:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25867 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:44:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25849 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-150.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.150]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA30983 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:44:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA11654 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:44:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804090144.UAA11654@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:08:49 +0930." <19980408150849.45215@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:44:08 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA25853 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Tue, 7 April 1998 at 23:30:59 -0500, David Kelly wrote: > > Have never used a multi-headed X server. How does it establish the > > relationship between monitors? > > unix:0.0 and unix:0.1. The config file contains a section for each > monitor, and the numbers are assigned in the order in which they > appear in the config file. > > > How do you move the mouse from one to the next? > > Sideways. There's a sideways wraparound. This makes virtual screens > (larger display than glass, and panning) a real pain, if it wasn't > before. Otherwise, though, it runs fine. Reminds me, the RasterOps ClearVue GS/30 19" greyscale system I added to my SE/30 had the outrageous for its day, "virtual desktop with hardware pan and zoom." While its nominal resolution was 1024x768x8 bits one could select 8192x768x1. While the monitor was single-sync and still drew the same picture, moving the mouse off the right edge triggered the hardware panning. Was fun to play with but the mouse strokes were too much on the forearm. There might have been keystrokes to pan, I didn't use it enough to remember. > > On the Mac, the mouse simply slides from monitor to monitor. > > That's the way. However, the additional Mac monitors may be above or below the others. You graphically establish their relationship in the Monitors Control Panel. Its possible to fine tune each monitor's postion down to the pixel. Ends up with one irregular shaped "desktop". Sounds like X implements multiple desktops that are only related by the ability to move the mouse pointer off one onto the other. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 18:44:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26351 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26055 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:44:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-150.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.150]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26941; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:44:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA11367; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 19:35:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804090035.TAA11367@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jan Koum cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Message from Jan Koum of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:25:09 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 19:35:29 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jan Koum writes: > Wait. You don't have any distortion on the screen from having two > huge monitors so close to each other? At work I have a 21" on FreeBSD and > 19" on Sparc and I have to keep them at least 3 feet a part or else the > screen on one (or both) start to "jiggle" (shake). It all depends on the monitors. Some are good. Others are better. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 18:45:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26425 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25861 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt1-150.HiWAAY.net [208.147.147.150]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07245 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:44:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA11646 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:43:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804090143.UAA11646@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Summary: shopping for new video adapter In-reply-to: Message from Amancio Hasty of "Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:07:48 PDT." <199804080807.BAA00594@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 20:43:44 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty writes: > Oh, I used to hack on X servers and I think we should be able to do it at > the very least we should be able to spread a display across multiple > monitors with the same resolution and color depth. The more I think > about it the easier it gets ... which makes me wonder why we don't > have such functionality. That would be a good start. However the Mac configuration I had looked something like this: +-------+ | | +----------+----------+ | | : : | | : +-------+ | : | | : | +----------+ | +----------+ No two were the same size. Left and right were usually run at 8 bits deep while the middle was a 1-bit monochrome. Each used a wildly different video interface. I used '|' and '-' above to draw the mouse limits, ':' delimits the boarders where the mouse would cross onto another monitor. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 8 22:06:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19206 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19197 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:06:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id WAA26583 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:06:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:06:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Jan Koum X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: One down... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all. Here in Silicon Valley we have new publication called "TechWeek" - very up on the latest silicon valley events, news and etc. In the last issue they had a Linux article. In response to which of course I wrote a letter to the editor. Well, apparently they published my short letter. Here is the URL: http://www.techweek.com/articles/Feedback.html They also want a 600 word article from me. I guess now that I am getting published I need to ask for a raise.. Kidding. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 9 09:22:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03288 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03132 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:20:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wpeters@xylan.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw [OUT])) id JAA04320; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 1.0)) id JAA24377; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:20:15 -0700 Received: from xylan.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id KAA09915; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:20:14 -0600 Received: by xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00675; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:20:47 -0600 From: Wes Peters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:20:46 -0600 (MDT) To: esr@thyrsus.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products In-Reply-To: <19980409121849.51551@snark.thyrsus.com> References: <351AEF41.4F70237E@xylan.com> <19980326210133.22728@snark.thyrsus.com> <13595.56491.667048.54397@salty.slcyp> <19980409121849.51551@snark.thyrsus.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.44 under Emacs 20.2.1 Message-ID: <13612.62597.457605.646138@salty.slcyp> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eric S. Raymond writes: > Yes, please do. Bear in mind, however, who I'm trying to impress. It won't > help us to list anybody who's doing less than a million dollars a year in > business -- and I need to be able to *quote* that run rate on the page. Thanks for providing clarification. I'm certain Walnut Creek should qualify, at least that would get FreeBSD on the list. As a platform for creating servers of any sort, FreeBSD really shines. IMHO, it's somewhat easier to put together a working FreeBSD server than Linux, due to the more tightly controlled releases. I've personally installed FreeBSD on machines all around this area, used as intranet servers, source code control servers based on both CVS and Perforce (see www.perforce.com, they're big FreeBSD fans, too), and as email/web servers for small companies with full-time internet connectivity. -- Wes Peters Who's going to save you Principal Engineer When you're a slave to Xylan Corporation A diamond as big as the Ritz wpeters@xylan.com -- Jimmy Buffett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 9 12:19:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24289 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mwhq.mead.com (firewall-user@mead.com [38.231.129.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24283 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from CP4@mead.com) From: CP4@mead.com Received: by mwhq.mead.com; id OAA13999; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dayton2.mead.com(10.20.2.118) by mwhq.mead.com via smap (3.2) id xma013800; Thu, 9 Apr 98 14:54:41 -0400 Received: by dayton2.mead.com(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 852565E1.006AF339 ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:28:10 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: MEAD To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: <852565E1.006A0BAF.00@dayton2.mead.com> Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:21:29 -0400 Subject: Whistle competition Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone seen this? http://www.cobaltmicro.com/ or this? http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0223/23mach.html Looks like whistle has some linux competition. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 9 12:28:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25494 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25452 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:27:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18759; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:27:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199804091927.MAA18759@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Whistle competition In-Reply-To: <852565E1.006A0BAF.00.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dayton2.mead.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <852565E1.006A0BAF.00.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dayton2.mead.com> you write: >http://www.cobaltmicro.com/ >or this? >http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0223/23mach.html I believe this is old news... I think this is where Larry McVoy ended up, in fact. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 9 14:04:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10628 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from forbidden-donut.anet-stl.com (vmailer@forbidden-donut.anet-stl.com [209.83.128.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10615 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:04:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doogie@forbidden-donut.anet-stl.com) Received: from localhost (localhost 127.0.0.1) by forbidden-donut.anet-stl.com (VMailer) via SMTP id 1C21B75EC0; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:04:11 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:04:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Jason Young To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Whistle competition In-Reply-To: <199804091927.MAA18759@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > In article <852565E1.006A0BAF.00.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dayton2.mead.com> you write: > >http://www.cobaltmicro.com/ > >or this? > >http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0223/23mach.html > > I believe this is old news... I think this is where Larry McVoy ended up, in > fact. There's a couple dozen of the all-in-one wannabe boxes. Check out http://www.apexx.com for another one (TEAM Internet). It's an embedded Linux system. We have a couple out on customer sites (not my choice). Jason Young ANET Chief Network Engineer -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBNS03y6InE6ybC66VAQFKpAL9EsN4jo0WpxpsqP/WtbmS+VR7KuNprA6T QqYVRh/lqq1Mh9Zl9CVdE7nAvIROm+41ZFv1yKCRGONVGOCC3kWWIWU0SL/hv38b owr9rQdKur6uKgze0138HQb5Dyo8aOCy =TQU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 9 17:48:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11481 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11345 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-84.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.84]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA06722; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:46:59 GMT Message-ID: <352D6BF7.9E24F936@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:46:47 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CP4@mead.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Whistle competition References: <852565E1.006A0BAF.00@dayton2.mead.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org CP4@mead.com wrote: > > Anyone seen this? > > http://www.cobaltmicro.com/ > or this? > http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/opinion/0223/23mach.html > > Looks like whistle has some linux competition. > With an Alpha processor, it appears. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 9 22:21:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16463 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:21:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16383 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09987 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:21:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804100521.WAA09987@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:21:15 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am thinking of switching my ISDN setup to 416/416 Kbits/sec and I am wondering if anyone in the San Francisco or Bay Area has an opinion on concentric.net : excellent support , good connectivity , etc.. Tnks! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 9 22:30:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19559 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:30:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from venus.GAIANET.NET (vince@venus.GAIANET.NET [207.211.200.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19553 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Received: from localhost (vince@localhost) by venus.GAIANET.NET (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14341; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vince@venus.GAIANET.NET) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:31:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Vincent Poy To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.concentric.net In-Reply-To: <199804100521.WAA09987@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > I am thinking of switching my ISDN setup to 416/416 Kbits/sec and I am > wondering if anyone in the San Francisco or Bay Area has an opinion > on concentric.net : excellent support , good connectivity , etc.. As the person running the machines for the founders of Concentric Network Corporation (NASDAQ: CNCX), they do run a DS-3 45Mbps backbone and uses MCI for transit. They recently acquired InterNex. If you are looking at DSL, then Epoch may be a better choice for you since this is a first tier backbone provider. For line costs, check out http://www.covad.com and http://ww.northpointcom.com for the cost of the DSL circuit to you. Epoch charges $27 a month to lease the equipment or no charge if you sign up for a Three year contract. The Internet access is $35 a month per Static IP address for any speed from 144k-1.1Mbps Symetrical and 1.54Mbps/384kBps Asymmetrical. Epoch Internet's webpage is at http://www.eni.net Cheers, Vince - vince@MCESTATE.COM - vince@GAIANET.NET ________ __ ____ Unix Networking Operations - FreeBSD-Real Unix for Free / / / / | / |[__ ] GaiaNet Corporation - M & C Estate / / / / | / | __] ] Beverly Hills, California USA 90210 / / / / / |/ / | __] ] HongKong Stars/Gravis UltraSound Mailing Lists Admin /_/_/_/_/|___/|_|[____] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 00:14:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13938 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13893 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:14:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16983; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:44:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA02016; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:44:36 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980410164435.56510@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:44:35 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , esr@thyrsus.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Open Source Products References: <351AEF41.4F70237E@xylan.com> <19980326210133.22728@snark.thyrsus.com> <13595.56491.667048.54397@salty.slcyp> <19980409121849.51551@snark.thyrsus.com> <13612.62597.457605.646138@salty.slcyp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <13612.62597.457605.646138@salty.slcyp>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Apr 09, 1998 at 10:20:46AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 April 1998 at 10:20:46 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Eric S. Raymond writes: >> Yes, please do. Bear in mind, however, who I'm trying to impress. It won't >> help us to list anybody who's doing less than a million dollars a year in >> business -- and I need to be able to *quote* that run rate on the page. > > Thanks for providing clarification. Have I missed the beginning of this thread, or is it the first we've seen in -chat? In which case, permit me to aske what this is all about. > I'm certain Walnut Creek should qualify, at least that would get > FreeBSD on the list. As a platform for creating servers of any > sort, FreeBSD really shines. IMHO, it's somewhat easier to put > together a working FreeBSD server than Linux, due to the more > tightly controlled releases. I've personally installed FreeBSD on > machines all around this area, used as intranet servers, source code > control servers based on both CVS and Perforce (see > www.perforce.com, they're big FreeBSD fans, too), and as email/web > servers for small companies with full-time internet connectivity. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 02:11:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00646 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:11:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00627 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA06520 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:11:02 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:11:01 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: OpenBSD Journal Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes I know it's OpenBSD, but some of you may still find it interesting. http://www.csee.uq.edu.au/~leonard/oj Nicholas Brawn -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 02:51:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07442 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07436 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17120; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:21:43 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA02537; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:21:43 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980410192141.16005@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:21:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD Journal References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 07:11:01PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 April 1998 at 19:11:01 +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > Yes I know it's OpenBSD, but some of you may still find it interesting. > > http://www.csee.uq.edu.au/~leonard/oj Interesting stuff. I like the title of the first article. Do we need something like this? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 02:59:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08824 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:59:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08816 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 02:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17127; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:29:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA02687; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:29:30 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980410192929.53004@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:29:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Alan Batie Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Netscape: Linux a top priority (news.com article) Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <19980409230039.28542@agora.rdrop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew D. Fuller on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 04:19:27AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does this really belong on -hackers (no, Matt, I'm not picking on you, but the volume is increasing). I'm following up to -chat, anyway. On Fri, 10 April 1998 at 4:19:27 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Alan Batie wrote: > >> Just add a bit more to the general Linux indignation running around here, >> check out yesterday's Linux piece on NPR at >> >> http://www.npr.org/news/tech/ >> >> (Real Audio needed) > OK, this is moving *ME* off my lazy @$$. And that's a job of moving. > Last time I moved, it was in January of '97 to put a 100 meg partition for > FreeBSD-2.1.6. Here's a letter I just sent off to NPR. Apologies in > advance for toes stepped on/liberties taken/stupid things said. > > I am gratified to hear the positive mention of free OS's in your show. > It's been a long time since any large entity so respected as NPR showed > such an alternative to expensive, commercial operating systems in such a > good light. I commend you for this and implore you to continue; there is > much more information that could be covered in a longer segment in the > future. > > Additionally, there is a point I'd like to bring forward here. Linux IS a > very nice operating system, but, as with any software, it cannot be all > things to all people. My choice for the systems I administer is > FreeBSD. This is all nice stuff, but IMO you're not paying enough attention to the viewpoint of the general public. I think the best we can say is something like: The Linux phenomenon is all the more astounding because it's not alone. It's just the best-known of a number of free operating systems for PCs, including three genuine UNIX derivatives (FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD) and the GNU hurd. Each has its claims to fame. Linux was able to overtake the UNIX derivatives due to litigation by the owners of UNIX against the BSD development teams in the time frame 1992-1994. I'm not going to send any mail myself. If anybody wants to use anything I've said, they're welcome. If you want to mention me by name, please pass it past me first. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 03:06:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09504 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA09474 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05191; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:05:44 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980410200542.08150@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:05:42 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <6218.892195002@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 06:55:37PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 06:55:37PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: [about shopping for FreeBSD in Australia] > The last time I found FreeBSD cd's, it was a "Turbo-FreeBSD" distribution > from someplace I can't remember, with 2.1.5-RELEASE on it and 2.2 > snapshots. It is extremely difficult to get FreeBSD in Australia, but Linux is pushed at us all the time. One mail order place in Melbourne (forgot their name, sorry) said they won't be getting new versions of FreeBSD until they sell all the old ones, because the old version they have is slow to sell. Apparently they can't be bothered to return them. If you go to Dymocks in Sydney and ask for FreeBSD, all you will be offered is a dusty old Turbo FreeBSD 2.1.5. They have all of the ORA books, and a huge range of Linux books and CDs. They say have never heard of Walnut Creek or Walnut Creek's version or The Complete FreeBSD but they don't expect it would sell any better than their current copy of 2.1.5 hasn't. They would be prepared to try to order one copy for a customer but require payment before the order is placed and expect a wait of some weeks or months. I don't know of any other shop in Australia where you can hope to see FreeBSD books or CDs. A lot of Australians don't have or don't like to use credit cards and mail order, and sending money overseas is quite expensive (my bank charges $10), not to mention the costs and delays of freight. Internet access is expensive here too, and all the above would apply to several other countries. Why bother trying FreeBSD when Linux books and CDs are everywhere. There's only so much enthusiastic supporters can do. When the people who can make money out of FreeBSD won't pull their finger out it's bloody hard for anyone else to. PR is little help if we cannot conveniently access the product behind it. Is there any way around this bottleneck, or is general promotion as well as sales to be targeted at the USA until we get that warm trickle-down feeling? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 03:16:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA10693 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au ([203.36.2.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA10687 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:16:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id UAA01449; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:15:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199804101015.UAA01449@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <19980410200542.08150@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Apr 10, 98 08:05:42 pm" To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:15:51 +1000 (EST) Cc: ncb05@uow.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > A lot of Australians don't have or don't like to use credit cards and mail > order, and sending money overseas is quite expensive (my bank charges $10), > not to mention the costs and delays of freight. Internet access is expensive > here too, and all the above would apply to several other countries. Why > bother trying FreeBSD when Linux books and CDs are everywhere. Fax an order to WC with a credit card number and you'll have your CD in your letter box within 10 days. If it goes astray in the mail, tell WC and they'll send you another one. That's pretty good service IMO. Why would I buy locally at an inflated price when I can buy direct? -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 03:36:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13542 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:36:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13532 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA05267; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:35:52 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980410203549.36751@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:35:49 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: John Birrell Cc: ncb05@uow.edu.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <19980410200542.08150@welearn.com.au> <199804101015.UAA01449@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199804101015.UAA01449@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:15:51PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:15:51PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > A lot of Australians don't have or don't like to use credit cards and mail > > order, and sending money overseas is quite expensive (my bank charges $10), > > not to mention the costs and delays of freight. Internet access is expensive > > here too, and all the above would apply to several other countries. Why > > bother trying FreeBSD when Linux books and CDs are everywhere. > > Fax an order to WC with a credit card number and you'll have your CD in > your letter box within 10 days. If it goes astray in the mail, tell WC > and they'll send you another one. That's pretty good service IMO. Why > would I buy locally at an inflated price when I can buy direct? You would if you went looking for something better than microsoft, thought about some kind of free unix, and had heard that FreeBSD was good. I often hear customers in Dymocks saying just that, and being sold Linux without opportunity for comparison. For me, I'm not too worried, even though I don't have a credit card that is recognised overseas. You're preaching to the converted. I am concerned, however, about the number of people I witness who would slightly prefer but fail to obtain FreeBSD. Walnut Creek is only there for those who are motivated enough to go about these things in the right manner. Most people here who I see running Linux just went to the shop and chose from whatever was on the shelf. It's so easy. That's a lot of people running Linux without considering FreeBSD. But I suppose if they don't use the Internet and aren't resourceful and patient enough to seek out FreeBSD in case its cover description does look more like what they're looking for, they don't deserve to have it, do they. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 03:43:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14370 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:43:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA14357 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA07972; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:42:56 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:42:55 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Sue Blake cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <19980410200542.08150@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Sue Blake wrote: [snip] > If you go to Dymocks in Sydney and ask for FreeBSD, all you will be offered > is a dusty old Turbo FreeBSD 2.1.5. They have all of the ORA books, and a > huge range of Linux books and CDs. They say have never heard of Walnut Creek > or Walnut Creek's version or The Complete FreeBSD but they don't expect it > would sell any better than their current copy of 2.1.5 hasn't. They would be > prepared to try to order one copy for a customer but require payment before > the order is placed and expect a wait of some weeks or months. I don't know > of any other shop in Australia where you can hope to see FreeBSD books or > CDs. That's where I found that "dusty old Turbo FreeBSD 2.1.5" cd. :) It is unfortunate as that particular Dymocks store is one of the very few places in Sydney that I know of that has a "decent" (comparitively speaking) selection of books on Unix/Networking (non-MS), and programming. The only other place I've seen which looks prospectively better is a place in chatswood (forgot the name sorry) that houses *only* computer technical books. :) > A lot of Australians don't have or don't like to use credit cards and mail > order, and sending money overseas is quite expensive (my bank charges $10), > not to mention the costs and delays of freight. Internet access is expensive > here too, and all the above would apply to several other countries. Why > bother trying FreeBSD when Linux books and CDs are everywhere. As a lowly student, I couldn't afford to send away for the cd, although I would do so given the opportunity to support the great work being done. In the end I d/l it on my trusty 14.4 and installed it from dos. My only gripe about freebsd install is that it's can be rather bare to begin with (especially for the first-time user), and requires some customisation before you feel comfortable with it. But then perhaps that's because I only installed base w/proflibs & kernel source. :) > There's only so much enthusiastic supporters can do. When the people who can > make money out of FreeBSD won't pull their finger out it's bloody hard for > anyone else to. PR is little help if we cannot conveniently access the > product behind it. Heh, as a result of all the recent postings about the lack of marketing of freebsd, and the overshadowing of the great work being done with freebsd in favour of Linux, i've decided to change the os i'll be writing a security paper on. I was initially going to write my paper tentatively titled "Assessing and Auditing System Security in Linux". But now in a flurry of evangelistic fervor, i've decided to do it on freebsd. It'll give the people at the university's computer security research group (www.itacs.uow.edu.au/ccsr) something to think about, seeing as they appear to focus more on Linux as the default free os of choice, and will also save me the inevitable flame-wise feedback of "oh but that problem only affects redhat distributions, not slackware" or vice-versa. :) > Is there any way around this bottleneck, or is general promotion as well as > sales to be targeted at the USA until we get that warm trickle-down feeling? A friend of mine is seeking to become a local .au equivalent of cheapbytes.com selling such things as free *nix software as well as cheap hardware. I had a cursory look at www.cdrom.com and it offered information on current resellers, but not information on how to become one (apart from emailing the people @cdrom.com). Perhaps some information along these lines should be available via the web? > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > find / -name "*.conf" |more > > -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 04:04:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17219 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA17207 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:04:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from Shevchenko.Kiev.UA (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29265; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:01:11 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <352DFBE8.AC63AF0@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:00:57 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua Organization: GlavAPU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Nicholas Charles Brawn , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: OpenBSD Journal References: <19980410192141.16005@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Fri, 10 April 1998 at 19:11:01 +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > ? Yes I know it's OpenBSD, but some of you may still find it interesting. > ? > ? http://www.csee.uq.edu.au/~leonard/oj > > Interesting stuff. I like the title of the first article. > > Do we need something like this? > but freebsd newsletter exists. > Greg > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 04:08:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA18543 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:08:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA18382 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05340; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:08:08 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980410210804.52297@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:08:04 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <19980410200542.08150@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:42:55PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:42:55PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > If you go to Dymocks in Sydney and ask for FreeBSD, all you will be offered > > is a dusty old Turbo FreeBSD 2.1.5. > That's where I found that "dusty old Turbo FreeBSD 2.1.5" cd. :) Aha! I wondered whose thumb print that was. It's still there as far as I know. > As a lowly student, I couldn't afford to send away for the cd, although I > would do so given the opportunity to support the great work being done. In > the end I d/l it on my trusty 14.4 and installed it from dos. Just as well you weren't using one of those $8/hr Internet providers :-) > Heh, as a result of all the recent postings about the lack of marketing > of freebsd, and the overshadowing of the great work being done with > freebsd in favour of Linux, i've decided to change the os i'll be writing > a security paper on. I was initially going to write my paper tentatively > titled "Assessing and Auditing System Security in Linux". But now in a > flurry of evangelistic fervor, i've decided to do it on freebsd. It'll > give the people at the university's computer security research group > (www.itacs.uow.edu.au/ccsr) something to think about, seeing as they > appear to focus more on Linux as the default free os of choice, and will > also save me the inevitable flame-wise feedback of "oh but that problem > only affects redhat distributions, not slackware" or vice-versa. :) Of course, this is where the vicious circle begins. Texts and other materials are chosen with several things in mind, one being whether sufficient quantities can be obtained by everyone enrolled in the course. I've had to recommend a less than ideal text book when the good one wasn't guaranteed available. If it's an option, you still tend to recommend whatever the students can find easily. Business people sometimes tell me they've been urged to change over to Linux by some enthusiastic young employee who's been using Linux for a few years at uni. They have someone on staff with a few Linux skills which were obtained primarily because Linux was readily available to them and their mates. FreeBSD is not put down; it's unknown. > > Is there any way around this bottleneck, or is general promotion as well as > > sales to be targeted at the USA until we get that warm trickle-down feeling? > > A friend of mine is seeking to become a local .au equivalent of > cheapbytes.com selling such things as free *nix software as well as cheap > hardware. I had a cursory look at www.cdrom.com and it offered information > on current resellers, but not information on how to become one (apart from > emailing the people @cdrom.com). Perhaps some information along these > lines should be available via the web? I'd like to see information about where FreeBSD can be purchased. If you met someone shopping in Dymocks what would you say to them? In my experience there's strong resistance to sending money overseas for the first time. For the last couple of years I've been badgering the nice guy at Cetus Technology to get the CDs in for me and a few friends, and he seems to always have the latest version these days. Now he's got the book as well. While the service is very good (COD or courier) it's a small company without a shopfront (http://www.cetustech.com.au) that doesn't seem to advertise widely. How's anyone supposed to know? We need a list or something. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 04:17:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA20298 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:17:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA20293 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 04:17:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA05363; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:17:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980410211713.05937@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:17:14 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <19980410200542.08150@welearn.com.au> <19980410210804.52297@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980410210804.52297@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 09:08:04PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 09:08:04PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:42:55PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > A friend of mine is seeking to become a local .au equivalent of > > cheapbytes.com selling such things as free *nix software as well as cheap > > hardware. I had a cursory look at www.cdrom.com and it offered information > > on current resellers, but not information on how to become one (apart from > > emailing the people @cdrom.com). Perhaps some information along these > > lines should be available via the web? > > I'd like to see information about where FreeBSD can be purchased. If you met > someone shopping in Dymocks what would you say to them? In my experience > there's strong resistance to sending money overseas for the first time. Oops, I misread what you'd said. I've just looked at the list of resellers and there's no way to tell if they stock FreeBSD, and I can't see any resellers listed for Australia. We could do with a FreeBSD-specific list. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 05:20:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24942 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 05:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA24926 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 05:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: "John S. Dyson" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <199804092221.RAA02226@dyson.iquest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org redirected to -chat On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > The problem with FreeBSD, is that people working on FreeBSD are generally > older, and find evangelism to be painful. Also, people using FreeBSD > are busy using it, as opposed to worshipping it. > How do we (really) deal with this? You need a publicist. -- Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 05:38:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA28053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 05:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27944 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 05:38:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05523; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:38:20 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980410223816.65012@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:38:17 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Jamie Bowden Cc: "John S. Dyson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <199804092221.RAA02226@dyson.iquest.net> <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net>; from Jamie Bowden on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:20:09AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:20:09AM -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: > > redirected to -chat > > On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > The problem with FreeBSD, is that people working on FreeBSD are generally > > older, and find evangelism to be painful. Not all. Look around, you might be surprised what energy some people have who need only a clear direction and permission to follow it. > > Also, people using FreeBSD > > are busy using it, as opposed to worshipping it. Some find the latter much easier than the former. > > How do we (really) deal with this? > > You need a publicist. And something to keep the frustrated evangelists involved before they start looking for more responsive objects of worship. A publicist could help there too. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 07:09:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:09:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12753 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:09:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfieber@indiana.edu) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13080 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:09:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:09:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Evangelism: call for sound bites Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [NOTE: please do NOT reply to the list unless you have something compelling that the whole list needs to hear.] We have one good sloagan, FreeBSD: The Power to Serve. There is certainly room for >>tactful<< evangelism on the FreeBSD website. I can make the server serve it, but I'm not going to write it. So, keeping in mind the very short attention span of your typical web surfer, send me: 1. URLs of any news items you find regarding FreeBSD. 3. Contact information for good showcase systems, such as wcarchive and Yahoo. Ultimately, I would like to replace the current FreeBSD gallery with a smaller number of in-depth illustrations of real-world FreeBSD applications. 3. One or two sentence reasons why someone would use FreeBSD. 4. One or two sentence descriptions of what distinguishes FreeBSD from X, where X could be Win95, NT, BSDI, (Net|Open)BSD, Linux, Solaris, UnixWare, Netware, etc. 5. One or two sentence testimonials of why YOU use FreeBSD rather than product X. For questions 3 and 4, the reasons must be tangible to the target audience and that target audience is NOT YOU! So, be extremely careful about the assumptions you make. In particular, you might frame the reasons as "Why FreeBSD instead of X" and pay careful attention to why the person may be using X now. Alternatively, frame the reasons for a technoloogy journalist. Also remember that technical excellence is only one small factor in how people choose a platform. If, in one sentence, you can make a convincing argument that FreeBSD has a lower TCO than product X, that would be fantastic. Elevate FreeBSD without lowering competitors. I will compile these sound bites and post them back to this mailing list (chat) for review. Sound bites over two sentences will be disqualified, as will sound bites with paragraph length sentences. -john To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 07:25:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15758 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA15736; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:25:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from tabara (unverified [194.95.214.167]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:22:44 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980410161317.03672cfc@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> X-Sender: moos@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:13:18 +0000 To: kris@airnet.net, "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Malte Lance Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:42 10.04.98 -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: >Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> >> FREEBSD - THE POWER TO SERVE >> FreeBSD: developed for years in secret in California, painstakingly >> started from 4.4BSD-Lite, is now revealed to the world. FreeBSD >> 2.2.6-RELEASE, with the power to run the largest web or FTP server, the > >Should say PC-based, IMHO. "the environmental completness for highest-productive SW-development" > >> flexibility to be easily customized to ANY task, and the simplicity to be >> used sucessfullly by anyone, is now available on CD-ROM from Walnut Creek >> CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/freebsd.htm), or by FTP from >> ftp.freebsd.org. 2.2.6-RELEASE offers many features implemented over a >> rock solid base, stabler and more powerful even than many commercial The commercial OSes i know are far from being as stable as FreeBSD, so why not saying it: "FreeBSD offers with its 2.2.6-RELEASE the most stable and powerful operating- system, with uncounted features build over that rock-solid base." >> operating systems. You can keep up with new features as they are developed >> and implemented by Concurrent Version System, a revolutionary way to keep >> up with the lastest changes, through the 2.2.6-STABLE development branch. The bleeding-edge-staying-current part is needless here, IMHO ;) >> You can even advance to the absolute bleeding edge, with the absolute >> latest changes, advances, and features by following the 3.0-CURRENT >> development tree. Better mention the distribution-policy: "No need to mess up with various distributions from different vendors. With FreeBSD you get THE distribution, unique, welldefined and constantly extended to cover the newest powertools and software. Currently there are many thousand SW-packages and ports incorporated into FreeBSD-releases (from A like archiver, over M like Multimedia, or S like StarOffice to Z like ... (maybe zsh))." >> And yet, even with this power and flexibility, FreeBSD >> is offered absolutely free of charge(insert discreet caevet about >> shipping and media charges here) to anyone anywhere in the world, and >> comes with full source. You can even contribute your own improvements >> back into the system! Call Walnut Creek CDROM at (800)786-9907 today to >> reserve your hot-off-the-press copy of FreeBSD 2.2.6 for the power to >> serve tomorrow, today! >> Malte Lance malte@webmore.com >-- > >Kris Kirby >------------------------------------------- >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 07:32:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17187 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:32:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17160; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 07:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23970; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:32:10 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:32:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Malte Lance cc: kris@airnet.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980410161317.03672cfc@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirecting followups to -chat] On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Malte Lance wrote: > At 08:42 10.04.98 -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: > >Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >> > >> FREEBSD - THE POWER TO SERVE > >> FreeBSD: developed for years in secret in California, painstakingly > >> started from 4.4BSD-Lite, is now revealed to the world. FreeBSD > >> 2.2.6-RELEASE, with the power to run the largest web or FTP server, the > > > >Should say PC-based, IMHO. > > "the environmental completness for highest-productive SW-development" ooOOoo, I like it; it sounds great while saying absolutely nothing. The perfect press relief material. > >> flexibility to be easily customized to ANY task, and the simplicity to be > >> used sucessfullly by anyone, is now available on CD-ROM from Walnut Creek > >> CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/freebsd.htm), or by FTP from > >> ftp.freebsd.org. 2.2.6-RELEASE offers many features implemented over a > >> rock solid base, stabler and more powerful even than many commercial > > The commercial OSes i know are far from being as stable as FreeBSD, so why not > saying it: > "FreeBSD offers with its 2.2.6-RELEASE the most stable and powerful operating- > system, with uncounted features build over that rock-solid base." I'm giving commercial releases the benefit of the doubt. Anything more sounds too arrogant, IMNHO. > >> operating systems. You can keep up with new features as they are developed > >> and implemented by Concurrent Version System, a revolutionary way to keep > >> up with the lastest changes, through the 2.2.6-STABLE development branch. > > The bleeding-edge-staying-current part is needless here, IMHO ;) Perhaps, but I'm trying to convey the scale through which you can decide how much tinkering you want, as opposed to Linux where your only choice is, essentially, -CURRENT. > >> You can even advance to the absolute bleeding edge, with the absolute > >> latest changes, advances, and features by following the 3.0-CURRENT > >> development tree. > > Better mention the distribution-policy: > "No need to mess up with various distributions from different vendors. > With FreeBSD you get THE distribution, unique, welldefined and constantly > extended to cover the newest powertools and software. Currently there are > many thousand SW-packages and ports incorporated into FreeBSD-releases > (from A like archiver, over M like Multimedia, or S like StarOffice to Z > like ... (maybe zsh))." Hm, 'Acrobat to Zsh'... it...could...WORK! > >> And yet, even with this power and flexibility, FreeBSD > >> is offered absolutely free of charge(insert discreet caevet about > >> shipping and media charges here) to anyone anywhere in the world, and > >> comes with full source. You can even contribute your own improvements > >> back into the system! Call Walnut Creek CDROM at (800)786-9907 today to > >> reserve your hot-off-the-press copy of FreeBSD 2.2.6 for the power to > >> serve tomorrow, today! > >> > > Malte Lance > malte@webmore.com > > >-- > > > >Kris Kirby > >------------------------------------------- > >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 08:39:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29592 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA29502; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:38:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from tabara (unverified [194.95.214.160]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:35:59 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980410172630.03654ae0@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> X-Sender: moos@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:26:31 +0000 To: freebsd-java@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Malte Lance Subject: Promotion could be so easy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "good-thing" done today ;) Who else ? Malte Lance malte@webmore.com >X-Envelope-To: >Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:55:34 -0400 (EDT) >From: Sean Reilly >X-Sender: sreilly@rely-sun.cnri.reston.va.us >To: Malte Lance >Subject: Re: FreeBSD supports MoneyDance > > > >Thanks! I have noticed from my referrer logs that a lot of the people who >visit my site come from www.freebsd.org/java. I added FreeBSD (with a link >fo freebsd.org) to the list of platforms. For some reason I didn't think >to add FreeBSD to the list before. > > >Thanks, >Sean > > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Malte Lance wrote: > >> Dear Sirs, >> >> FreeBSD and the kind developers of FreeBSD also support MoneyDance as you >> can verify at http://www.freebsd.org/java/ >> Please add "FreeBSD" to the list of platforms supporting MoneyDance on >> your WWW-Site. >> >> Malte Lance >> malte@webmore.com >> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 08:39:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29690 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA29506 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from tabara (unverified [194.95.214.160]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:36:03 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980410172634.036729ec@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> X-Sender: moos@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:26:35 +0000 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" From: Malte Lance Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Cc: kris@airnet.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:32 10.04.98 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >[redirecting followups to -chat] > >On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Malte Lance wrote: > >> At 08:42 10.04.98 -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: >> >Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> >> >> >> FREEBSD - THE POWER TO SERVE >> >> FreeBSD: developed for years in secret in California, painstakingly >> >> started from 4.4BSD-Lite, is now revealed to the world. FreeBSD >> >> 2.2.6-RELEASE, with the power to run the largest web or FTP server, the >> > >> >Should say PC-based, IMHO. One more thing here: When surfing www.freebsd.org i always got the impression, FreeBSD is just a Server-OS for high-perf HTTP- and FTP-service. That's not true (for me). I use it for several allday-tasks like email, surfing, editing, writing letters, using Mathematica-3.0 (on 2.1.5 !!!), rendering, and for SW-development. >> "the environmental completness for highest-productive SW-development" >ooOOoo, I like it; it sounds great while saying absolutely nothing. The >perfect press relief material. ;) The point here is: Maybe it sounds interesting for developers-ears to read on. Saying nothing is ok as long as it sounds interesting ;) >> >> flexibility to be easily customized to ANY task, and the simplicity to be >> >> used sucessfullly by anyone, is now available on CD-ROM from Walnut Creek >> >> CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/freebsd.htm), or by FTP from >> >> ftp.freebsd.org. 2.2.6-RELEASE offers many features implemented over a >> >> rock solid base, stabler and more powerful even than many commercial >> >> The commercial OSes i know are far from being as stable as FreeBSD, so why not >> saying it: >> "FreeBSD offers with its 2.2.6-RELEASE the most stable and powerful operating- >> system, with uncounted features build over that rock-solid base." >I'm giving commercial releases the benefit of the doubt. Anything more >sounds too arrogant, IMNHO. Na ... there is no doubt. And if you are good/best there is nothing wrong with saying it. Do you believe in FreeBSD and its concept/stability ? Do you believe 100% ? If yes, then act this way. If not, then why are you using FreeBSD ? => You believe in FreeBSD! AND do you expect the commercial vendors to think and act as polite as you do? Promotion has NOTHING to do with being a nice guy. >> >> operating systems. You can keep up with new features as they are developed >> >> and implemented by Concurrent Version System, a revolutionary way to keep >> >> up with the lastest changes, through the 2.2.6-STABLE development branch. >> >> The bleeding-edge-staying-current part is needless here, IMHO ;) >Perhaps, but I'm trying to convey the scale through which you can decide >how much tinkering you want, as opposed to Linux where your only choice >is, essentially, -CURRENT. Yes but staying-STABLE is a very nice general feature that also servers to point out the unholy misfeature of just and only staying-CURRENT in Linux. I don't think the low-level-dumb-user as i am, wants to stay CURRENT. So this is no positive promotional point to the just-general interested potential user. BUT it is really worth mentioning in a more detailed promotional text. >> >> You can even advance to the absolute bleeding edge, with the absolute >> >> latest changes, advances, and features by following the 3.0-CURRENT >> >> development tree. >> >> Better mention the distribution-policy: >> "No need to mess up with various distributions from different vendors. >> With FreeBSD you get THE distribution, unique, welldefined and constantly >> extended to cover the newest powertools and software. Currently there are >> many thousand SW-packages and ports incorporated into FreeBSD-releases >> (from A like archiver, over M like Multimedia, or S like StarOffice to Z >> like ... (maybe zsh))." >Hm, 'Acrobat to Zsh'... it...could...WORK! Acrobat is something everybody knows. Zsh is not. Anything better for Z* than zsh ? Malte Lance malte@webmore.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 08:48:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01797 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01787 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:48:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA06259; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:48:12 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980411014808.62022@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:48:08 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Malte Lance Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , kris@airnet.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <3.0.32.19980410172634.036729ec@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980410172634.036729ec@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de>; from Malte Lance on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 05:26:35PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 05:26:35PM +0000, Malte Lance wrote: > At 09:32 10.04.98 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >> Better mention the distribution-policy: > >> "No need to mess up with various distributions from different vendors. > >> With FreeBSD you get THE distribution, unique, welldefined and constantly > >> extended to cover the newest powertools and software. Currently there are > >> many thousand SW-packages and ports incorporated into FreeBSD-releases > >> (from A like archiver, over M like Multimedia, or S like StarOffice to Z > >> like ... (maybe zsh))." > >Hm, 'Acrobat to Zsh'... it...could...WORK! > > Acrobat is something everybody knows. Zsh is not. > Anything better for Z* than zsh ? Zip -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 09:06:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA05822 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05813 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:06:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16389; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:10:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980410121023.04500@vmunix.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:10:23 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Malte Lance Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <3.0.32.19980410172634.036729ec@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980410172634.036729ec@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de>; from Malte Lance on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 05:26:35PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 05:26:35PM +0000, Malte Lance wrote: > At 09:32 10.04.98 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > >[redirecting followups to -chat] > >Hm, 'Acrobat to Zsh'... it...could...WORK! > > Acrobat is something everybody knows. Zsh is not. > Anything better for Z* than zsh ? As Sue pointed out -- 'Zip' :-) Also, "Apache" might be a better choice to start from then Acrobat.. :-) -Mark > > Malte Lance > malte@webmore.com -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 09:37:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09463 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:37:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA09455 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:37:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from tabara (unverified [194.95.214.171]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:34:43 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980410182513.0069421c@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de> X-Sender: moos@cyclone.degnet.baynet.de X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:25:14 +0000 To: Mark Mayo From: Malte Lance Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:10 10.04.98 -0400, Mark Mayo wrote: >On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 05:26:35PM +0000, Malte Lance wrote: >> At 09:32 10.04.98 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: >> >[redirecting followups to -chat] > >> >Hm, 'Acrobat to Zsh'... it...could...WORK! >> >> Acrobat is something everybody knows. Zsh is not. >> Anything better for Z* than zsh ? > >As Sue pointed out -- 'Zip' :-) Good one. > >Also, "Apache" might be a better choice to start from then Acrobat.. >:-) Not sure. I expect the general-window-user to associate it with Winnetou. Acrobat/Appache is ok for me ;) Malte Lance malte@webmore.com > >-Mark > >> >> Malte Lance >> malte@webmore.com > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com > RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark > > finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs > at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 11:15:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25992 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (host77-126.airnet.net [209.64.77.126]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25957 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@ninbox.ml.org) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA00587; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:15:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:15:03 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Reply-To: kris@airnet.net Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Shanes CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Redirected to -chat: David Shanes wrote: > > 3. At school (SDSU), the professor that runs the CS networks just > switched most of the department's teaching computers from Solaris to > FreeBSD. Solaris said that they would release the source code to the school > for classes like "Advanced Operating Systems" and "Writing Device Drivers", > but they didn't - so they lost out. If we have CS majors using it in > college - how can we get them to carry FreeBSD out in to the "real world" > after graduation? > > My two cents.... Give them FreeBSD CDs when they graduate. (Here's my diploma and my CD...) -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 11:59:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:59:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08237; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17062; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:03:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:03:31 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: kris@airnet.net, David Shanes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org>; from Kris Kirby on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 01:15:03PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 01:15:03PM -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: > Redirected to -chat: > > David Shanes wrote: > > > > 3. At school (SDSU), the professor that runs the CS networks just > > switched most of the department's teaching computers from Solaris to > > FreeBSD. Solaris said that they would release the source code to the school > > for classes like "Advanced Operating Systems" and "Writing Device Drivers", > > but they didn't - so they lost out. If we have CS majors using it in > > college - how can we get them to carry FreeBSD out in to the "real world" > > after graduation? > > > > My two cents.... > > Give them FreeBSD CDs when they graduate. (Here's my diploma and my > CD...) <---WARNING: Long winded email follows, but there's a good "Kill Linux" argument presented at the end for those of you who's perfer to skip right to the good stuff. ;-) ---> I'd say just getting them to use it is good enough. :-) Here at the University of Guelph, thanks to the generosity of Walnut Creek, we've slowly replaced Linux with FreeBSD on about 65% of the CS department's PCs. In between semesters in a couple weeks, a good portion of the remaining PCs will get an upgrade to FreeBSD. Just yesterday, a friend of mine came up to me and said "Wow, I can't believe how much nicer FreeBSD is to program with! The man pages are better, and things work like they're supposed to. You were right, Linux *is* the DOS of the UNIX world.". :-) Ahh, makes me all warm and tingly inside. :-) Just getting FreeBSD into CS departments world-wide is enough - FreeBSD will wow them all by itself once students play with it. What was needed to make the switch? Evangelism. Plain and simple. It took literally years of me prodding and poking and continuously singing the virtues of FreeBSD before enough faculty were impressed to "overthrow" the 2 Linux die-hards.. That and the fact that the Linux NIS/NFS lab for 3rd years degraded into a piece of crap and was nearly non-usable. :-) For those interested, the arguments that worked best for me (note that this is for getting CS departments to embrace FreeBSD) : 1. Pedigree. History. FreeBSD is the product of the CSRG at Berkeley. Its roots are in academia, and we should be continuing that tradition. 2. Documentation. The Design and Implementation of 4.4BSD book. The ORA BSD document set (PSD, USD, etc.). The literally hundreds of USENIX and IEEE research papers presented on BSD related design, etc.. Superior man pages for system calls. It's hard for a pedagogically oriented prof to argue when you slap about 5000 pages of BSD docs on his desk and demand that he produce the same for Linux. The 2 arguemnts above all come down to "FreeBSD is a better environment for students since they can learn more about Computer Science. The background books are there, the papers are there, the history is there. FreeBSD came out of academia, and it's simply a more appropriate environment for the academic setting. If a student wants to know "why", chances are good that he can find out. Compare this environment with the willy-nilly hacker sytle of Linux. 3. Technical issues. NFS was written on BSD. The Athena project. Departments all over the world have used BSD in the past because is was designed with their labs, classrooms, and so on in mind. NFS in Linux sucks the willy. You're going to have problems with NFS and Linux in a large environment like a typical CS department. Fill in the blank here, we all know umpteen reasons why FreeBSD outperforms, outshines, or outwhatvers Linux. Wait for Linux labs to break, and rub it in their face. As mentioned previously, nice guys finish last in marketig - without exception. <-- Here's the Linux=Enemey arguement you're been waiting for ---> An aside on the Linux attack. Personaly, I don't have a vendetta against Linux. I think it's a decent little workstation OS. The reality, however, of nearly every CS department I see, is that they are under HUGE pressure to start providing Microsoft environments alongside their UNIX environments. At the University of Waterloo, University of Toronto, and the wee little University of Guelph here in Soutern Ontario, this means NT. The side effect of this is, due purely to economic and time issues, CS departments are picking *ONE* Unix environment. PCs are perfect. Dual boot them with NT and Linux, and you've got the best of both worlds. 2 simple systems for you admins to maintain, and you can market your program as providing students qualified in Windows and UNIX. So, we're competing to be the UNIX environemnt. Linux is winning the war. We're not competing with NT on this front - NT is becoming a given. We're competing directly with Linux, almost without exception. For this reason, like it or not, I see Linux as just as much of an enemy as Microsoft when it comes to promoting FreeBSD. On the global scale, hell yeah, I'll take Linux over NT any day, but this isn't the important battle on the academic front. My $.02 (sure to be controversial), -Mark > -- > > Kris Kirby > ------------------------------------------- > TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 12:49:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21262 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20785; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from Shevchenko.Kiev.UA (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29778; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:46:05 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <352E76F7.1B2D773D@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:46:03 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua Organization: GlavAPU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Mayo CC: kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Mayo wrote: > 2. Documentation. The Design and Implementation of 4.4BSD book. The ORA > BSD document set (PSD, USD, etc.). The literally hundreds of USENIX > and IEEE research papers presented on BSD related design, etc.. > Superior man pages for system calls. It's hard for a pedagogically > oriented prof to argue when you slap about 5000 pages of BSD docs > on his desk and demand that he produce the same for Linux. > > But Linux have better user-level documentation, then we. (How-to pages). In principle, if FreeBSD plan to concurate with Linux, than exist few areas, in which bazzar style is better than cafedral. 1. User-level documentation. How about creating a set of How-to documents , as linux have, linked from www.freebsd.org, which cover topics, which are not belong to FAQ and Handbook. (tuning X11, Oracle-on-FreeBSD, etc) 2. Ports. How about: 1. indexing uncomeeted ports, which live in queue, and make it accessible throught www.freebsd.org. (Personlly I stop sending send-pr about my ports, after two my ports was leave in queue more then year). 2. Creating categorized set of links to Applicatons, which run on FreeBSD, writeln for FreeBSD, etc, but ports for ones may be not exists in ports collection. About "Linux is enemy": I think not. I think that it is possible to positionate Linux as good replacement for Windows95, FreeBSD as good replacement for NT. 3. And for pity, actual programming on C++ now is better do on Linux or SCO than on FreeBSD. for example, for Linux exists 3 or 2 commercical C++ compilers, for FreeBSD --- none. all CORBA ports in ports collection are very old. Creating bazzar-style ports collection can help a little in this situation. -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 13:05:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26654 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26646; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17308; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:08:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980410160851.15337@vmunix.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:08:51 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua Cc: kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> <352E76F7.1B2D773D@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <352E76F7.1B2D773D@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA>; from Ruslan Shevchenko on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:46:03PM +0300 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:46:03PM +0300, Ruslan Shevchenko wrote: > Mark Mayo wrote: > > About "Linux is enemy": I think not. I wasn't saying that Linux is the enemy in general - merely that in the academic setting, Linux is the enemy, or to be more acurate, the "competition". -Mark > 3. And for pity, actual programming on C++ now is better do on > Linux or SCO than on FreeBSD. > for example, for Linux exists 3 or 2 commercical C++ compilers, > for FreeBSD --- none. Hmm. Which compilers are you referring to? And how many people are actually using commercial compilers under Linux? > > all CORBA ports in ports collection are very old. > > Creating bazzar-style ports collection can help a little in > this situation. I disagree. Our port collection is amazing. It makes getting programs for FreeBSD very straight-forward and efficient. The problem is that not all of the ports are always completely up to date - but this has nothing to do with "cathedral vs. bazaar". It simply has to do with the free time of the volunteers. -Mark > > -- > > @= > //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 13:25:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01380 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00977; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:23:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from Shevchenko.Kiev.UA (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29821; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:20:40 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <352E7F01.1B9C39BC@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:20:25 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua Organization: GlavAPU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Mayo CC: rssh@grad.kiev.ua, kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> <352E76F7.1B2D773D@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> <19980410160851.15337@vmunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Mayo wrote: > O > > ? 3. And for pity, actual programming on C++ now is better do on > ? Linux or SCO than on FreeBSD. > ? for example, for Linux exists 3 or 2 commercical C++ compilers, > ? for FreeBSD --- none. > > Hmm. Which compilers are you referring to? And how many people are > actually using commercial compilers under Linux? > 1. kai (http://www.kai.com) 2. comeaucomputing (http://www.comeaucomputing.com) 3. I'm not remember, but was. How many users: Of course, I don't know. But problem not in this, but in existense. I now buy in comeaucomputing compiler for SCO, and I was have tolk with them about FreeBSD platform. I'm interesting in cooperating from somebody of FreeBSD users in creating FreeBSD version of Comeau C++. > ? > ? all CORBA ports in ports collection are very old. > ? > ? Creating bazzar-style ports collection can help a little in > ? this situation. > > I disagree. Our port collection is amazing. It makes getting programs > for FreeBSD very straight-forward and efficient. The problem is that > not all of the ports are always completely up to date - but this has > nothing to do with "cathedral vs. bazaar". It simply has to do with the > free time of the volunteers. > Free time of volunteers is slowing factor. We can have --FreeBSD-ports collection and bazzar-style set of links for FreeBSD applications. Becouse attempt to track *all* software which run on FreeBSD is in principle impossible. More: I think that we *must* have the bazzar style set of links. > -Mark > > ? > ? -- > ? > ? @= > ? //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA > ? > ? > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com > RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark > > finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs > at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 13:28:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02589 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cam.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01870; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from Shevchenko.Kiev.UA (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cam.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29825; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:24:48 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <352E800D.FFED5592@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:24:47 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua Organization: GlavAPU X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Mayo CC: rssh@grad.kiev.ua, kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ports@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> <352E76F7.1B2D773D@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> <19980410160851.15337@vmunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ? Creating bazzar-style ports collection can help a little in > ? this situation. > > I disagree. Our port collection is amazing. It makes getting programs > for FreeBSD very straight-forward and efficient. The problem is that > not all of the ports are always completely up to date - but this has > nothing to do with "cathedral vs. bazaar". It simply has to do with the > free time of the volunteers. > Which must have commit privilegies. This is limit factor. > -Mark > > ? > ? -- > ? > ? @= > ? //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA > ? > ? > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com > RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark > > finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs > at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 14:06:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11648 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11432; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:05:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01152; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804102101.OAA01152@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:50:00 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:01:53 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Anyone who is interested in writing GUI apps but is annoyed with TK should > check out the Perl bindings for GTK. Its -slick-. In comparison to the tk bindings for Perl, that's not hard. Tk works better with Tcl, for obvious reasons. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 14:51:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22333 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22303 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:50:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01319; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804102146.OAA01319@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Jim Shankland cc: toasty@home.dragondata.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, steve@visint.co.uk Subject: Re: ps segfaults since I overclocked. and worries. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:43:57 PDT." <199804102143.OAA06116@biggusdiskus.flyingfox.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:46:11 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, to the best of my knowledge, the p166 and p200 were almost > > identical except the fact that intel test these prior to shipment, to > > make sure what processor can achieve what clock speed without burning. > > I think overclocking is a 99% fail-proof way to achieve better > > performance from your CPU(To a limited extent, ofcourse) without > > paying more money for something which is about the same. > > Let me make sure I got this right. > > 1. Intel makes chip. > 2. Intel tests chip at 200 MHz; it fails. > 3. Intel tests chip at 166 MHz; it works. > 4. Intel sells chip as a P166. > 5. Customer buys this P166. > 6. Customer overclocks chip to 200 MHz. > 7. Customer experiences failures. > 8. Customer gripes to FreeBSD mailing lists about "inherent limits" > in FreeBSD. Yes. Now you percieve the need for Linux and Windows in the marketplace. Think of them like the super-absorbent towels of the operating system world. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 15:05:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23785 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:05:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp6529.on.bellglobal.com (ppp6529.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23772 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:05:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp6529.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA00311; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:03:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp6529.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:03:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua cc: Mark Mayo , kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <352E76F7.1B2D773D@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [X-post to -ports removed] On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Ruslan Shevchenko wrote: > 1. User-level documentation. > How about creating a set of How-to documents , as linux > have, linked from www.freebsd.org, which cover > topics, which are not belong to FAQ and Handbook. > (tuning X11, Oracle-on-FreeBSD, etc) We have these; they're called "Tutorials". Topics convered include, for example, using the mh mail tools, spec. on FreeBSD. > (Personlly I stop sending send-pr about my ports, > after two my ports was leave in queue more then > year). Sorry. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 15:55:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02318 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02299 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:54:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA15854; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:54:17 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:54:15 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Adam Turoff cc: Frank Pawlak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Re[2]: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <352E6110@smginc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Adam Turoff wrote: > > Frank writes: > > The Linux community uses add slicks and authorized re-sellers and > > wholsalers tp promate their product. Take a look at www.caldera.com or > > www.suse.com > > Could we ask Walnut Creek to be the FreeBSD sugar daddy? Caldera, > RedHat and SuSE make money off of selling CDs but frequently drop off > a case of current or near-current CDs for user groups to give away. I > think > I picked up 3 CDs of Caldera OpenLinux 1.1 from a recent > tradeshow - one from LXNY and one or two from the Caldera booth. > RedHat was there and may have had some CDs to give away too. > > (Remember, Linux CDs make great coasters!) > > Walnut Creek is shipping 2.2.6 RSN, and in an ideal world there would > be no inventory of 2.2.5 left. Realistically, there must be a few > cases of CDs collecting dust or waiting to be destroyed. I for one > would volunteer to be one of a group of Johnny FreeBSDseeds around > the world giving away FreeBSD-(N-1)-RELEASE CDs. Worst case, > it might get installed and Walnut Creek would have someone > buying the Book/CD combo of FreeBSD-(N)-RELEASE and possibly > N+1. > > Hell. If Walnut Creek doesn't want to do it, why not just set up a > PO Box to send your recently-obsoleted CD sets for > evangelical redistribution? > > Evangelism doesn't _need_ to cost lots of money or become a jihad. > > The Linux movement is doing some things well. If we can't learn > >from them it's our own damn fault. > > -- Adam. I think that's a *great* idea. :) -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 15:59:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02888 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02861; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:58:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01501; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804102256.PAA01501@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty), jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mozilla CVS repository, OK give it a shot. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:51:20 PDT." <199804102251.PAA01586@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:56:13 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A couple of quick prods to the arty sorts out there. We need: - Chuck in a Mozilla T-shirt. - Chuck in a tuxedo top, doing the waiter thing with a Mozilla on the platter. For the seriously nasty-of-mind: - Chuck and Mozilla at right-angles, with Mozilla toasting the Linux penguin, impaled on the tines of Chuck's trident. You would want the whole campfire scene going here, just for atmosphere. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 16:10:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05881 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05802 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:09:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA19319; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804102309.QAA19319@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: fullermd@futuresouth.com CC: malte@webmore.com, kris@airnet.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (fullermd@futuresouth.com) Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * > extended to cover the newest powertools and software. Currently there are * > many thousand SW-packages and ports incorporated into FreeBSD-releases * > (from A like archiver, over M like Multimedia, or S like StarOffice to Z * > like ... (maybe zsh))." * Hm, 'Acrobat to Zsh'... it...could...WORK! Over 1,300 now. There aren't StarOffice packages though. Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 18:09:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02951 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02704 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:08:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19828; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:38:46 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA09049; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:38:45 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411103845.40439@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:38:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Mayo , kris@airnet.net, David Shanes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com>; from Mark Mayo on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 03:03:31PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 April 1998 at 15:03:31 -0400, Mark Mayo wrote: > On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 01:15:03PM -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: > For those interested, the arguments that worked best for me (note that > this is for getting CS departments to embrace FreeBSD) : > > 1. Pedigree. History. FreeBSD is the product of the CSRG at Berkeley. > Its roots are in academia, and we should be continuing that tradition. > > 2. Documentation. The Design and Implementation of 4.4BSD book. The ORA > BSD document set (PSD, USD, etc.). The literally hundreds of USENIX > and IEEE research papers presented on BSD related design, etc.. > Superior man pages for system calls. It's hard for a pedagogically > oriented prof to argue when you slap about 5000 pages of BSD docs > on his desk and demand that he produce the same for Linux. > > 3. Technical issues. NFS was written on BSD. The Athena project. Departments > all over the world have used BSD in the past because is was designed > with their labs, classrooms, and so on in mind. NFS in Linux sucks the > willy. You're going to have problems with NFS and Linux in a large > environment like a typical CS department. Fill in the blank here, we all > know umpteen reasons why FreeBSD outperforms, outshines, or outwhatvers > Linux. Wait for Linux labs to break, and rub it in their face. As > mentioned previously, nice guys finish last in marketig - without > exception. I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned the biggest buzzword associated with BSD: the Internet. Most of these other terms are things that only techies have heard of. *Everybody* has heard of the Internet, which is more than you can say of Linux. Look at the title of this thread. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 18:37:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08570 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:37:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08320 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:36:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19895; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:05:52 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA09226; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:05:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411110550.35570@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:05:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: chadf@bookcase.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] References: <19980411084246.42966@freebie.lemis.com> <199804110042.RAA23170@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804110042.RAA23170@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:42:33AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 0:42:33 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Don't rely on web2 to be complete. I'm sure that there are many >> errors there. > > Patches? They don't worry me. I don't use it. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 18:38:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09215 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08895 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:37:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id VAA21804; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:37:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Chuck Robey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > You guys have been asked several times to take it to -chat. Are people > going to be forced to extremes to get a little courtesy? Nope your right sorry. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 18:45:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11018 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:45:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10749 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19906; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:12:32 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA09275; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:12:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411111231.21511@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:12:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Chuck Robey , Open Systems Networking Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , David Shanes , Brett Glass , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Chuck Robey on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:25:32PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 April 1998 at 20:25:32 -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > You guys have been asked several times to take it to -chat. Are people > going to be forced to extremes to get a little courtesy? Nostrae culpae. I did try early on, but since nobody seemed to notice, and I hadn't read any complaint at the time I answered this message, I thought people wanted to make an exception. Ŕ propos exception: a lot of this stuff has been going on in -questions, where people are typically not also members of -chat. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 18:49:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12331 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12231 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01301 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Yahoo release Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yahoo had a press release today about their profits last quarter. Since people have been saying we should show that FBSD is stable by pointing out Yahoo and Walnut Creek, I thought this statement in their press release was very interesting. "Yahoo! also announced that traffic on the Yahoo! global network of properties increased to an average of 95 million page views per day during the month of March 1998, compared to an average of 65 million page views per day in December 1997." Note that averages out to over a 1000 hits/second! You can read the whole press release here: http://www.yahoo.com/docs/pr/release166.html I'd say taking a 1000 hits/sec must require a stable OS. :-) ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 18:57:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13563 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13540 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:57:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA14646; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:55:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804110155.SAA14646@implode.root.com> To: Brett Taylor cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo release In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:48:07 MDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:55:17 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Yahoo had a press release today about their profits last quarter. > >Since people have been saying we should show that FBSD is stable by >pointing out Yahoo and Walnut Creek, I thought this statement in their >press release was very interesting. > >"Yahoo! also announced that traffic on the Yahoo! global network of > properties increased to an average of 95 million page views per day > during the month of March 1998, compared to an average of 65 million > page views per day in December 1997." > >Note that averages out to over a 1000 hits/second! > >You can read the whole press release here: > > http://www.yahoo.com/docs/pr/release166.html > >I'd say taking a 1000 hits/sec must require a stable OS. :-) Keep in mind, however, that this is spread out over a whole bunch of servers - I think something like >70 at just the west coast POP. Although I believe they are doing several million hits/day per server, so I think it is still impressive. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 19:05:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14910 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enterprise.tht.net (root@tht.net [209.47.145.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA14869; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:04:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beef@tht.net) Received: from tht.net(really [209.47.145.231]) by enterprise.tht.net via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:33:20 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #2 built 1997-Mar-7) Message-ID: <352E902A.465C9611@tht.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:33:30 +0000 From: Lanny Baron Organization: York Hill Foods X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "S. Paul" , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: install with boot.flp won't make good PPP connection... References: <352D931B.C3B1C013@crl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org S. Paul wrote: > Im having the same problem. Have you received any helpful information > yet? > PPP work's in the older release of FreeBSD I'm running, yet with 2.2.6 > RELEASE I can dial in log on yet ppp will not change to PPP. > If you come up with a work around please forward to me, I'll reciprocate Hello, Thank goodness I am not alone in this. I was told by alot of ppl on #freebsd on efnet that I don't know how to use ppp. Well I say that there is a problem with the /stand/sysinstall that comes with the boot.bin from FreeBSD. Last night I went with my pc to my ISP. I tried to do PPP from their office. Same crap. No PPP...only ppp which is no good. I had to use ethernet connection to download FreeBSD v. 2.2.6. I have it now installed and am writing this letter with netscape on FreeBSD with a PPP connection with 2.2.6. I tried for hours with all kinds of combinations like, 127.0.0.1/0 0.0.0.0 and with ISP's addy as 0. All with no luck. I don't know what I can tell you except see if you can get an ethernet connection to download. If not, I think you won't have much choice but to buy the cdroms or get yourself an eariler verion at ftp://ftp.freebsd.org Take care, Lanny P.S. try going to efnet on irc and to #freebsd .... maybe you will have better luck than I did. If you do I am BeeF_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 19:05:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14927 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14880 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:04:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id WAA26642; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:04:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mozilla CVS repository, OK give it a shot. In-Reply-To: <9653.892233276@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > This is what the cvsup entries should look like: > > *default prefix=/home/mozilla base=/home/mozilla host=mozilla.FreeBSD.org release=cvs delete compress use-rel-suffix > > ## Main Source Tree > cvs-mozilla Wooooo! Outstanding! I'm grabbing it now. This is just to slick for words. cvsup is great :) Thanks for making it availble! And john thanks for cvsup! Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 19:25:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19016 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:25:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18974 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:24:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18460; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:28:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980410222810.18575@vmunix.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:28:10 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: Greg Lehey , kris@airnet.net, David Shanes Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <007501bd64a4$85095f40$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> <352E61A7.570D84C@ninbox.ml.org> <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> <19980411103845.40439@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980411103845.40439@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 10:38:45AM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 10:38:45AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Fri, 10 April 1998 at 15:03:31 -0400, Mark Mayo wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 01:15:03PM -0500, Kris Kirby wrote: > > For those interested, the arguments that worked best for me (note that > > this is for getting CS departments to embrace FreeBSD) : > > > I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned the biggest buzzword > associated with BSD: the Internet. Most of these other terms are > things that only techies have heard of. *Everybody* has heard of the > Internet, which is more than you can say of Linux. Look at the title > of this thread. Since it's Computer Science departments we're talking about, "The Internet" goes with the "Pedigree Factor" I mentioned. :-) Perhaps a gigantic BSD, the first Internet aware OS PR hype would be good. :-) Or something to that effect.. FreeBSD really has quite a depot of good marketing ammunition available. We just soldiers to sign up and start using it.. -Mark > > Greg > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:25:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25779 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:25:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25755 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA74398 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:25:37 GMT Message-ID: <352EE29F.B6473D59@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:25:19 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Netscape: Linux a top priority (news.com article) References: <19980409230039.28542@agora.rdrop.com> <19980410192929.53004@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: [snip-snip-snip] > The Linux phenomenon is all the more astounding because it's not > alone. It's just the best-known of a number of free operating > systems for PCs, including three genuine UNIX derivatives (FreeBSD, > NetBSD and OpenBSD) and the GNU hurd. Each has its claims to fame. GNU 'hurd' OS kernel, perhaps. It'd need some explanation what a misspelled herd of african whatevers are doing in with computers. ;) > Linux was able to overtake the UNIX derivatives due to litigation by > the owners of UNIX against the BSD development teams in the time > frame 1992-1994. > I really like the tone of this, Greg. I think it's great to say 'FreeBSD rules!' but 'xyz sucks' demeans all of us, though I've gotta admit Micros**t has an awful fat target I can't resist :) I know it's only a trickle in terms of real users, but there's a steady stream of lead commentators in such as InfoWorld, Network World, and other mags that are beginning to _equate_ -- if not actively plug -- freeware relative to commercial crap, and the Wall Street Journal has now plugged both Linux and Apache seriously. If we in IT and those in Academia stand tall and make our logic and our preferences and our experience known, Stallman's credo may yet become true, that software should be free and only understanding costs. I realize the other side has lots of our money to play with, but it seems to me that they're quite good at shooting themselves in the feet, witness Microsoft's press buyout plan on the front page of the LA Times today, witness Novell's self-destruction, etc., etc., etc. My personal feeling is that our most important target in the press has got to be proprietary 'standards', like the so-called MS Word6 format or the old IPX protocol, or now, the Intel I2O device bus API. It's been amply demonstrated that freeware can compete with and often outshine commercially funded software, especially when stuff from multiple sources has got to work together. Where we get shot down is the old proprietary bugaboo, but now that M$ is changing the so-called Word 6 every year and even the RTF, there is a window to make it clear to our bosses that Bill Gates will not bring them bacon. Rather he sucks it all up. Hmmm... sounds like the government! Vote Libertarian! Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:34:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27783 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27715 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:34:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA71818; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:33:54 GMT Message-ID: <352EE490.F8ACD7D0@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:33:36 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: Jamie Bowden , "John S. Dyson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <199804092221.RAA02226@dyson.iquest.net> <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19980410223816.65012@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How about a -list devoted to publicity ideas, press contacts and evangelism? I'd plug in! Those who want to hack, -hack. Those who want to grow the pool of hackers, freebsd-plug! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:37:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28275 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28263 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:36:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-88.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.88]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA32539 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:36:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA25393 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:36:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804110336.WAA25393@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Yahoo release In-reply-to: Message from David Greenman of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 18:55:17 PDT." <199804110155.SAA14646@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:36:40 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman writes: > >You can read the whole press release here: > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/docs/pr/release166.html > > > >I'd say taking a 1000 hits/sec must require a stable OS. :-) > > Keep in mind, however, that this is spread out over a whole bunch of > servers - I think something like >70 at just the west coast POP. Although > I believe they are doing several million hits/day per server, so I think > it is still impressive. But before we stick our necks out too far, Yahoo! and Oracle jointly made a press release recently. Think it mentioned NT too. So how much of Yahoo! is still FreeBSD? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:45:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29761 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29748 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:45:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18656; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:49:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980410234916.51014@vmunix.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:49:16 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: dwilde1@ibm.net, Sue Blake Cc: Jamie Bowden , "John S. Dyson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <199804092221.RAA02226@dyson.iquest.net> <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19980410223816.65012@welearn.com.au> <352EE490.F8ACD7D0@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <352EE490.F8ACD7D0@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:33:36PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:33:36PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > How about a -list devoted to publicity ideas, press contacts and > evangelism? I'd plug in! Those who want to hack, -hack. Those who want > to grow the pool of hackers, freebsd-plug! As Terry just suggested on -hackers, a comp.os.bsd.freebsd.avdocacy USENET group and a freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list would be perfect. -Mark -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:52:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00464 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00454 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15851; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804110350.UAA15851@implode.root.com> To: David Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo release In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:36:40 CDT." <199804110336.WAA25393@nospam.hiwaay.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:50:43 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Keep in mind, however, that this is spread out over a whole bunch of >> servers - I think something like >70 at just the west coast POP. Although >> I believe they are doing several million hits/day per server, so I think >> it is still impressive. > >But before we stick our necks out too far, Yahoo! and Oracle jointly >made a press release recently. Think it mentioned NT too. So how much >of Yahoo! is still FreeBSD? As far as I know, 100% of their servers are FreeBSD. -DG David Greenman Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:53:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00720 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00707 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA76722; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:53:25 GMT Message-ID: <352EE923.285172AB@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:53:07 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ac199@hwcn.org CC: rssh@grad.kiev.ua, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > 1. User-level documentation. > > How about creating a set of How-to documents , as linux > > have, linked from www.freebsd.org, which cover > > topics, which are not belong to FAQ and Handbook. > > (tuning X11, Oracle-on-FreeBSD, etc) > > We have these; they're called "Tutorials". Topics convered > include, for example, using the mh mail tools, spec. on FreeBSD. > I think Ruslan's got a point that Mark also touched. FreeBSD has better _working_ documentation, but one of the reasons Joe PC buys Linux is the Popular Mechanics-style How-To's. They're pitched down to the Windozer's level, so he walks in the door and never gets a chance to try FreeBSD. The same is true for the OpenBSD e-zine that was just URL'd here. The FreeBSD Newsletter was great, but we need something pitched to the WIRED audience _as_well_. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:55:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01008 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:55:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01003 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:55:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA28982; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:54:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980410225442.14664@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:54:42 -0500 From: dannyman To: Gary Kline , Open Systems Networking Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <199804101747.KAA15159@tao.thought.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199804101747.KAA15159@tao.thought.org>; from Gary Kline on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:47:18AM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:47:18AM -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > I was a writer several lifetimes ago, and altho tech writing > is nearly beyond me (it ain't easy, folks), I'd be willing > to invest time in a *BSD magazine. Getting a magazine up and running can be real rough. It seems as if Jordan hasn't exactly had a cakewalk with the newsletter either. A safer approach, imho, might be to try something on the web - less capital risk, and we could see how things work out first before trying to jump into pulp, and attract interested contributors. Getting people to volunteer to write articles, even if you have an editor in place, can be real PITA. -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:56:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01252 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:56:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01244 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:56:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12134; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:55:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Mark Mayo cc: kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:03:31 EDT." <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:55:50 -0700 Message-ID: <12130.892266950@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org These are great points - you want to write up a paper on "getting FreeBSD into academic environments" and I'll print it in the newsletter? Seriously, the points you've made are too useful to see just vanish into the mailing list archives.. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 20:58:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01521 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01509 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:58:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA31420; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:58:26 GMT Message-ID: <352EEA50.8F211C30@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:58:08 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn CC: Adam Turoff , Frank Pawlak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Hell. If Walnut Creek doesn't want to do it, why not just set up a > > PO Box to send your recently-obsoleted CD sets for > > evangelical redistribution? > > > > Evangelism doesn't _need_ to cost lots of money or become a jihad. > > > > The Linux movement is doing some things well. If we can't learn > > >from them it's our own damn fault. > > > > -- Adam. > > I think that's a *great* idea. :) Ditto. I get two subscriptions, one for the company and one for my own. I just committed myself to 5 years of MSCS grad school at CSUN, and their Linux boxen are going to be my targets. Extra CD's I got. Hell, for somebody to play with and boot up, 2.1.7 and 2.2.1 are great as well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:03:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02327 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA60320; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 04:03:25 GMT Message-ID: <352EEB7C.78E32181@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:03:08 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: Brett Taylor , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo release References: <199804110155.SAA14646@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Somebody mentioned that they thought they had heard that when Yahoo went Altavista they also inherited some alpha boxes to run it on. Anybody here know the scoop? Are they 100% FreeBSD? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:13:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03542 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:13:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03531 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id AAA19167; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:12:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: dannyman cc: Gary Kline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <19980410225442.14664@urh.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, dannyman wrote: > On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:47:18AM -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > > > I was a writer several lifetimes ago, and altho tech writing > > is nearly beyond me (it ain't easy, folks), I'd be willing > > to invest time in a *BSD magazine. > > Getting a magazine up and running can be real rough. It seems as if > Jordan hasn't exactly had a cakewalk with the newsletter either. A safer > approach, imho, might be to try something on the web - less capital risk, > and we could see how things work out first before trying to jump into pulp, > and attract interested contributors. > > Getting people to volunteer to write articles, even if you have an editor > in place, can be real PITA. Maybe we can do the web based magazine type publish AND do our PR at the same time? Combine them both. Have feature articles for insatance from FreeBSD consultants like myself, who can write about how their using FreeBSD in their clients companies. The problems of offering a Free based solution, etc.. I'd do articles on that. And we can publish PR reports at the same time. Thats one possible idea. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:17:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04950 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:17:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04846 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:17:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA18134; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:17:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980410231735.12564@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:17:35 -0500 From: dannyman To: Open Systems Networking Cc: Gary Kline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PR & Publishing References: <19980410225442.14664@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Networking on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:12:14AM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:12:14AM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote: > Maybe we can do the web based magazine type publish AND do our PR at the > same time? Combine them both. Have feature articles for insatance from > FreeBSD consultants like myself, who can write about how their using > FreeBSD in their clients companies. The problems of offering a Free based > solution, etc.. I'd do articles on that. And we can publish PR reports at > the same time. Thats one possible idea. *nods* I don't see quite what the two have in common except maybe; 1) PR would definately try to bring attention to the publishing, and the publishing would serve to heighten interest in news organizations and others wanting to receive PR. 2) The two could be combined and have the same cadre of folks involved ... this way, the publication could coordinate stories of contemporary interest that would augment the PR and stuff. :) or something. i gotta do a bit of research on this PR biz. (I have books, whee!) -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:22:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06628 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06618 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id AAA20621; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:21:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: dannyman cc: Gary Kline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PR & Publishing In-Reply-To: <19980410231735.12564@urh.uiuc.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, dannyman wrote: > *nods* > > I don't see quite what the two have in common except maybe; > > 1) PR would definately try to bring attention to the publishing, and the > publishing would serve to heighten interest in news organizations and > others wanting to receive PR. > > 2) The two could be combined and have the same cadre of folks involved ... > this way, the publication could coordinate stories of contemporary interest > that would augment the PR and stuff. :) No your right there two sperate things. I'm just trying to kill 2 birds with one stone. Thats all. A one stop shopping center for FreeBSD info perhaps? Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:26:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07418 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:26:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07411 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA27384; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 04:26:22 GMT Message-ID: <352EF0DB.F0954869@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:26:03 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Mayo CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <199804092221.RAA02226@dyson.iquest.net> <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19980410223816.65012@welearn.com.au> <352EE490.F8ACD7D0@ibm.net> <19980410234916.51014@vmunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Mayo wrote: > comp.os.bsd.freebsd.avdocacy USENET group ^^^^^^^^ -plug's easier to spell, Mark ;) > and a freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list would be perfect. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:27:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07644 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07637 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:27:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA01879; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:27:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980410232726.52955@urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:27:26 -0500 From: dannyman To: Open Systems Networking Cc: Gary Kline , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PR & Publishing References: <19980410231735.12564@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Networking on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:21:38AM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:21:38AM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote: > No your right there two sperate things. I'm just trying to kill 2 birds > with one stone. Thats all. A one stop shopping center for FreeBSD info > perhaps? I like to think that's called www.freebsd.org :) But it stands some improvement, sure, and it's not for everyone, that's why we need active PR and distributed periodicals. Two birds, and it's prolly the same folks aimin' to stone 'm. -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:48:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11776 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:48:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11746 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA16932 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 04:47:50 GMT Message-ID: <352EF5E5.94ACBB06@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:47:33 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It sounds like there's a lot of enthusiasm and agreement. We even heard from both Jordan and John asking for such. Gentlemen (and Sue Blake, et al), fire up your EMACS! PS Press Releases are not magazine copy. Don't mistake them, they have different purposes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:48:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12022 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:48:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11933 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA18941; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:52:29 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980411005229.25261@vmunix.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:52:29 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <199804092221.RAA02226@dyson.iquest.net> <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19980410223816.65012@welearn.com.au> <352EE490.F8ACD7D0@ibm.net> <19980410234916.51014@vmunix.com> <352EF0DB.F0954869@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <352EF0DB.F0954869@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 09:26:03PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 09:26:03PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Mark Mayo wrote: > > > comp.os.bsd.freebsd.avdocacy USENET group > ^^^^^^^^ -plug's easier to spell, Mark ;) > > and a freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list would be perfect. True. :-) The only reason I prefer a .advocacy (am I even spelling that correctly?) is because there are linux.advocacy, nt.advocacy, etc.. -plug or -promote are fine as well. :-) -Mark -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:56:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15345 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:56:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15302 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20315; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:26:17 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA18617; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:26:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411142616.52233@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:26:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: David Dawes , John Fieber Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <199804102256.IAA07810@cimlogic.com.au> <19980411143046.35436@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980411143046.35436@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>; from David Dawes on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 02:30:46PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Following up to -chat, where the discussion should have been for a long time). On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 14:30:46 +1000, David Dawes wrote: > On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 11:12:23PM -0500, John Fieber wrote: >> On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, John Birrell wrote: >> >>> Chad M. Fraleigh wrote: >>>> >>>> "authorisation" should be "authorization". >>> >>> In my _*English*_ dictionary, either is acceptable. >> >> Citation please? >> >> Not found in the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd ed), nor any of >> the American dictionaries I have on hand (American Heritage, >> Webster). > > I have a copy of "The Concise Oxford Dictionary", 6th ed (1976). It > shows both forms, with the "z" version preferred. > > Also, "The Macquarie Dictionary", 1st ed, revised (1985), which is > considered by many to be the reference for English as used in Australia > shows both with the "s" version preferred. That's correct. Australian spelling is more frenchified than British spelling in this matter. My viewpoint on this is that neither spelling is incorrect. Somewhere, a recognized dictionary allows it. As somebody (John) observed, the OED prefers -ize to -ise, and that's the spelling I normally use. It does have problems, though, since the words ending in -ise come from two different roots, and you can't use -ize for everything (advertize?). Since the spelling isn't incorrect, I can't see any reason to change it. In some cases, it may be statement of opinion. If you want to go around changing the text of man pages, it would make more sense to correct real spelling mistakes and unclear formulations first. >> It may be acceptable somewhere, but I dare say that the "z" >> version is much more widely accepted. > > I tend to agree. I used to think that the "s" version was the real > "English" form (consistent with traditional Unix 'spell -b'), but some > time ago an Englishman who was somewhat pedantic about such things > pointed out that this wasn't the case (referencing the Oxford English > Dictionary). I've come to the conclusion that the "s" form is more > common in Australian English than elsewhere, and it happens to be the > form I use too. Possibly. It's pretty much in common usage in the UK as well, despite being deprecated by the OED. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 21:59:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15870 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tera.com (tera.tera.com [207.108.223.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15855 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:58:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tera.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with UUCP id VAA25002; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA19507; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:48:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199804110448.VAA19507@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <19980410225442.14664@urh.uiuc.edu> from dannyman at "Apr 10, 98 10:54:42 pm" To: dannyman@dannyland.org (dannyman) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Cc: kline@thought.org, opsys@mail.webspan.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to dannyman: > On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 10:47:18AM -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > > > I was a writer several lifetimes ago, and altho tech writing > > is nearly beyond me (it ain't easy, folks), I'd be willing > > to invest time in a *BSD magazine. > > Getting a magazine up and running can be real rough. It seems as if > Jordan hasn't exactly had a cakewalk with the newsletter either. A safer > approach, imho, might be to try something on the web - less capital risk, > and we could see how things work out first before trying to jump into pulp, > and attract interested contributors. > > Getting people to volunteer to write articles, even if you have an editor > in place, can be real PITA. > Pulp or electrons (plus the newslettre). If webzine were well-done, it could be one of the starting points. There need to be several. I plan to continue with the ports group and my devel app work, and would contribute to any zine. Organizing any volunteer effort is a pain; at least initially. Once going, things develop their own inertia. (Like Project Gutenberg.) Anybody up for this? -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:06:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18103 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18026 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-34.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.34]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA57898 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 05:06:35 GMT Message-ID: <352EFA4A.45B67357@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:06:18 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suggest we start with John Fieber's call for Gallery submissions about our current FreeBSD projects. One thing that easily happens on -chat is that too many good ideas pass into the archives, as Jordan said. Why don't we all hang up the 'net and go write something down that he can use? See you all tomorrow! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:08:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19116 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:08:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tera.com (tera.tera.com [207.108.223.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19095 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:08:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tao.thought.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tera.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with UUCP id WAA25266; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kline@localhost) by tao.thought.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA19649; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:03:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Message-Id: <199804110503.WAA19649@tao.thought.org> Subject: Re: PR & Publishing In-Reply-To: <19980410232726.52955@urh.uiuc.edu> from dannyman at "Apr 10, 98 11:27:26 pm" To: dannyman@dannyland.org (dannyman) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, kline@thought.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: <> thought.org: public access uNix in service... <> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to dannyman: > On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:21:38AM -0400, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > > No your right there two sperate things. I'm just trying to kill 2 birds > > with one stone. Thats all. A one stop shopping center for FreeBSD info > > perhaps? > > I like to think that's called www.freebsd.org :) > > But it stands some improvement, sure, and it's not for everyone, that's why > we need active PR and distributed periodicals. Two birds, and it's prolly > the same folks aimin' to stone 'm. > There wwould be hyperlinks to <> in the zine. I see the magazine as offering pieces to new and experienced users; as a platform for commercial user (Yahoo, e.g.); to highlight new ports and new freeware and shareware. Plus advice on how to set up your Personal Workstation with various desktops; and other production tools. In othr words a sort of Unix-World for BSD users. The Net- and Open-BSD groups welcome, of course. IOW, flames to /dev/null. gary -- Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:11:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19473 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19464 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03462; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:11:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199804110511.AAA03462@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <352EF5E5.94ACBB06@ibm.net> from Don Wilde at "Apr 10, 98 09:47:33 pm" To: dwilde1@ibm.net Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:11:01 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It sounds like there's a lot of enthusiasm and agreement. We even heard > from both Jordan and John asking for such. Gentlemen (and Sue Blake, et > al), fire up your EMACS! > > PS Press Releases are not magazine copy. Don't mistake them, they have > different purposes. > I am ignorant about PR, so please recognize this when reading my comments about such things. I just want to chime in (again) and suggest showing enthusiasm and competency. However, I STRONGLY suggest that we not show arrogance or an excessively superior attitude. We have so many good things on our side (including being very reasonable and careful with our claims.) Let's be extremely enthusiastic, and at the same time being very honest about what we are and aren't. Credibility is critical, and that is one of our major assets. We don't use terms like 'Kewl' and 'rulz', even though we have users and developers of all age groups. We all try to chip-in, and don't have any sort of cult of personality. I think that we all want to be a part of a "class act". (For non native American English speakers, that means that we maintain ourselves with both concern for others, and also maintain high standards for ourselves, both ethically and try not to show excessive judgement of others personally.) With the relatively centralized development, all of the various contributors and developers have a sense of ownership. This lends a craftmanship quality to our efforts. We all want our project to endure, and I am sure we also have no delusions of "taking over the world", or imposing our personal beliefs on others. I hope that this new movement in FreeBSD takes on the challenge of publicizing the project with a positive and non-confrontational message. We need to maintain the same high standards in our evangelism as we try to in our development!!! My hope is that the project will be perceived as a class-act without any sort of snobbery, and very inclusive. IMO, we all need to get this message out. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:12:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19741 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19734 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19058; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:16:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980411011611.17670@vmunix.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:16:11 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: FreeBSD Chat , David Dawes , John Fieber Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] References: <199804102256.IAA07810@cimlogic.com.au> <19980411143046.35436@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> <19980411142616.52233@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980411142616.52233@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 02:26:16PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 02:26:16PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > (Following up to -chat, where the discussion should have been for a > long time). > > On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 14:30:46 +1000, David Dawes wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 11:12:23PM -0500, John Fieber wrote: > >> On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, John Birrell wrote: > >> > >>> Chad M. Fraleigh wrote: > >>>> > >>>> "authorisation" should be "authorization". > >>> > >>> In my _*English*_ dictionary, either is acceptable. > >> > >> Citation please? > >> > >> Not found in the Oxford English Dictionary (2nd ed), nor any of > >> the American dictionaries I have on hand (American Heritage, > >> Webster). > > > > I have a copy of "The Concise Oxford Dictionary", 6th ed (1976). It > > shows both forms, with the "z" version preferred. > > > > Also, "The Macquarie Dictionary", 1st ed, revised (1985), which is > > considered by many to be the reference for English as used in Australia > > shows both with the "s" version preferred. > > That's correct. Australian spelling is more frenchified than British > spelling in this matter. Just for the record, the Canadian English version also uses 's', although 'z' is also acceptable.. Obviously, being a bilingual country (at least in theory..) with French as the second language, Canadian English has many french'isms.. The most notable differences are the use of "ise" over "ize" in most circumstances, the spelling of some "er" ending words with "re", and many "or" ending words with "our". Examples are centre, metre, colour, etc, etc.. I'd vote for keeping "authorisation" the way it is. :-) > My viewpoint on this is that neither spelling is incorrect. Exactly. The wonder of the english language - use it as you will.. ;-) -Mark > Greg > > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:14:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20031 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:14:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20024; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA20364; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:44:26 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA18805; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:44:25 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:44:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Questions , FreeBSD Hackers , newbies@freebie.lemis.com, FreeBSD Chat Subject: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for the spam. This will be the only message I send to these lists--please respect the Reply-To: header and follow up either to chat@FreeBSD.org or supporters@nanyang-computer.com. One of the points raised in the recent flurry of messages about more visibility for FreeBSD is the question of support. We've discussed this at length before, but somehow the discussions gradually sickered away and we were no closer to a solution. A company I do a lot of work for, Nan Yang Computer Services Ltd., is interested in providing commercial support for FreeBSD. They're a *very* low-profile company in England, and they'll expect to be involved mainly in the billing. This means that the people they're looking for have to do just about everything else themselves, more like consultants than employees. With this background, I'd like to solicit discussion on the subject. I've set up a mailing list supporters@nanyang-computer.com. Sign up in the traditional manner: send mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com with the text 'subscribe supporters' in the message body. My intention at this stage is to discuss to following topics: 1. How to set up a world-wide commercial support organization for FreeBSD. One of the things that I expect to be of great advantage is that the people involved will be accessible via the Internet, so it should be possible to provide 24x7 coverage. In keeping with Nan Yang's low-key image, I don't envisage any commercial premises for the support people: they will all be located wherever it suits them. 2. What support to offer. The obvious choices are: - first-level user support ("how do I attach an image to a mail reply?") - defect support ("My machine just said "panic: not enough foos" and rebooted. What do I do?"). - programming support ("I've just updated my Yoyodyne frobulator to the new, improved YYD-64. Can you write a driver for me, please?") - Education. This is by no means an exhaustive list. 3. What to charge. 4. How to sell the concept to potential customers. I've copied -questions and -newbies on this message. I don't expect many of the people on those lists to want to join in, but you could be concerned that this might mean the end of free support on the -questions list. I don't think you need to be worried. I suspect it *will* change things on the list, but I don't see any reason to expect that it will make things worse. I'd prefer that as much of the discussion as possible happens on supporters@nanyang-computer.com (it's a no-obligation signup :-). If, for some reason, you don't want to do that, please follow up in FreeBSD-chat. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:24:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24135 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:24:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au ([203.36.2.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24084 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id PAA09049 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:23:50 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199804110523.PAA09049@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 11, 98 02:44:25 pm" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:23:49 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > With this background, I'd like to solicit discussion on the subject. > I've set up a mailing list supporters@nanyang-computer.com. Sign up > in the traditional manner: send mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com > with the text 'subscribe supporters' in the message body. Mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com bounces. 8-( ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to nanguo.nanyang-computer.com.: >>> MAIL From: SIZE=273 <<< 550 Access denied 554 majordomo@nanyang-computer.com... Service unavailable # finger majordomo@nanyang-computer.com [nanyang-computer.com] Login: majordom Name: Majordomo Pseudo User Directory: /usr/local/majordomo Shell: /nonexistent Never logged in. No Mail. No Plan. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:25:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24390 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24376 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:25:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id XAA01473; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:25:05 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA11116; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:24:44 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:24:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: David Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo release In-Reply-To: <199804110336.WAA25393@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, David Kelly wrote: > David Greenman writes: > > >You can read the whole press release here: > > > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/docs/pr/release166.html > > > > > >I'd say taking a 1000 hits/sec must require a stable OS. :-) > > > > Keep in mind, however, that this is spread out over a whole bunch of > > servers - I think something like >70 at just the west coast POP. Although > > I believe they are doing several million hits/day per server, so I think > > it is still impressive. > > But before we stick our necks out too far, Yahoo! and Oracle jointly > made a press release recently. Think it mentioned NT too. So how much > of Yahoo! is still FreeBSD? Note that you need to be very careful doing PRs about people using your software when you aren't doing the PRs in cooperation with them. It can do anything ranging from annoying them to really pissing them off. Also, cooperating with them can get you cool and useful quotes. If you do it right, they may well like the idea because it gives them press at the same time. You just have to be very careful about who is trying to exploit who for free PR; that goes both ways. Hey, they use Apache too for some stuff last I knew. Of course it is a pre-1.2 version that is quite hacked up, and I'm not sure just how much they use it for. They hide it really well, but the right malformed queries to the right servers will reveal the truth. For example, add.yahoo.com claims to be Apache/1.1.1 if you ask it right. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:33:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25956 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25939 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20424; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:02:56 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA18980; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:02:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411150256.20093@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:02:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD References: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> <199804110523.PAA09049@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804110523.PAA09049@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 03:23:49PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 15:23:49 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> With this background, I'd like to solicit discussion on the subject. >> I've set up a mailing list supporters@nanyang-computer.com. Sign up >> in the traditional manner: send mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com >> with the text 'subscribe supporters' in the message body. > > Mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com bounces. 8-( > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to nanguo.nanyang-computer.com.: >>>> MAIL From: SIZE=273 > <<< 550 Access denied > 554 majordomo@nanyang-computer.com... Service unavailable Strange. I just tried it (again) from another system, and it worked fine. Could you try again please, and if it still doesn't work, contact me privately? Sorry for that Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:34:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26550 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:34:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26427 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:34:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA11627; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:34:07 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980411153404.46948@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:34:05 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: John Birrell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD References: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> <199804110523.PAA09049@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199804110523.PAA09049@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 03:23:49PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 03:23:49PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > With this background, I'd like to solicit discussion on the subject. > > I've set up a mailing list supporters@nanyang-computer.com. Sign up > > in the traditional manner: send mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com > > with the text 'subscribe supporters' in the message body. > > Mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com bounces. 8-( Strange... mine doesn't. You're not sending it rubber emails are you? :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:36:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27319 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:36:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27295 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:36:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20431; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:05:58 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA19015; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:05:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411150557.02720@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:05:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD References: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> <199804110523.PAA09049@cimlogic.com.au> <19980411150256.20093@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980411150256.20093@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 03:02:56PM +0930 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 15:02:56 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 15:23:49 +1000, John Birrell wrote: >> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> With this background, I'd like to solicit discussion on the subject. >>> I've set up a mailing list supporters@nanyang-computer.com. Sign up >>> in the traditional manner: send mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com >>> with the text 'subscribe supporters' in the message body. >> >> Mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com bounces. 8-( >> >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >> ... while talking to nanguo.nanyang-computer.com.: >>>>> MAIL From: SIZE=273 >> <<< 550 Access denied >> 554 majordomo@nanyang-computer.com... Service unavailable > > Strange. I just tried it (again) from another system, and it worked > fine. Could you try again please, and if it still doesn't work, > contact me privately? Ah, I didn't read the message properly. You have a reverse lookup problem: Apr 11 15:03:33 freebie sendmail[18977]: NOQUEUE: ruleset=check_relay, arg1=[192.68.162.134], arg2=192.68.162.134, relay=[192.68.162.134], reject=451 Reverse lookup of IP address failed Apr 11 15:03:34 freebie sendmail[18977]: NOQUEUE: Null connection from [192.68.162.134] Sorry, the system requires reverse lookup. You'll have to fix your DNS first (or complain to Telstra, who are good at messing this sort of thing up). Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:46:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29891 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (root@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29883 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16630 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:46:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:46:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Time Magazine Top100 People Poll Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a possible chance for a little positive PR. Lets make Jordan one of the Top100 for all of the categories. ;-) http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/time100poll.html -- Chris Dillon --- cdillon@inter-linc.net --- cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us /* Powered by FreeBSD, the best operating system on the planet. Available for Intel x86 and compatible computers. SPARC and Alpha ports currently under development. (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 22:56:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02450 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:56:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02437 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA20497; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:26:21 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA19186; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:26:20 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980411152620.48162@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:26:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Chris Dillon , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time Magazine Top100 People Poll References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Dillon on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:46:07AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 0:46:07 -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > Here's a possible chance for a little positive PR. Lets make Jordan one > of the Top100 for all of the categories. ;-) > > http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/time100poll.html No, don't. If you want to get any kind of recognition for free UNIX, vote for Linus. Once that's acheived, we can start making FreeBSD better known. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 23:24:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11035 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:24:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from awfulhak.org (awfulhak.demon.co.uk [158.152.17.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10927; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:24:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@Awfulhak.org) Received: from gate.lan.awfulhak.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by awfulhak.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00678; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:10:31 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from brian@gate.lan.awfulhak.org) Message-Id: <199804110610.HAA00678@awfulhak.org> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: Lanny Baron cc: "S. Paul" , questions@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: install with boot.flp won't make good PPP connection... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Apr 1998 21:33:30 -0000." <352E902A.465C9611@tht.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:10:31 +0100 From: Brian Somers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > S. Paul wrote: > > > Im having the same problem. Have you received any helpful information > > yet? > > PPP work's in the older release of FreeBSD I'm running, yet with 2.2.6 > > RELEASE I can dial in log on yet ppp will not change to PPP. > > If you come up with a work around please forward to me, I'll reciprocate > > Hello, > > Thank goodness I am not alone in this. I was told by alot of ppl on > #freebsd on efnet that I don't know how to use ppp. Well I say that there > is a problem with the /stand/sysinstall that comes with the boot.bin from > FreeBSD. [.....] After dialing, connecting, logging in, negotiating LCP, authenticating and negotiating IPCP, the prompt becomes PPP. Nobody's going to be able to figure out which of these stages has failed. Try ``set log local phase chat lcp ipcp ccp command'' before dialing. It may be interresting. > Take care, > > Lanny > > P.S. try going to efnet on irc and to #freebsd .... maybe you will have > better luck than I did. If you do I am BeeF_ -- Brian , , Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 23:25:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11593 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:25:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (root@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11584 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16691; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:25:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:25:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Time Magazine Top100 People Poll In-Reply-To: <19980411152620.48162@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 0:46:07 -0500, Chris Dillon wrote: > > Here's a possible chance for a little positive PR. Lets make Jordan one > > of the Top100 for all of the categories. ;-) > > > > http://www.pathfinder.com/time/time100/time100poll.html > > No, don't. If you want to get any kind of recognition for free UNIX, > vote for Linus. Once that's acheived, we can start making FreeBSD > better known. True. That is actually how it was brought to my attention in the first place. Someone asked me to go there and vote for Linux, and I thought plugging Jordan in instead might be a good idea. After seeing the stats you get afterwards, however (AFTER I wrote the original mail) we would have an extremely hard time coming up with 50,000 people to vote in that direction to be able to displace the others on the list. :-) You could, I suppose, write some scripts to hit that page up a few thousand times with the appropriate poll-bending information (which I would not doubt in the least has already been done, if you look at some of those figures). ;-> -- Chris Dillon --- cdillon@inter-linc.net --- cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us /* Powered by FreeBSD, the best operating system on the planet. Available for Intel x86 and compatible computers. SPARC and Alpha ports currently under development. (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 10 23:40:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14957 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14944; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (aargau-100.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.85.228]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id GAA00739; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 06:40:00 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16560; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804110639.BAA16560@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:39:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD - the user's piece of the action. To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, danj@3skel.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, toor@dyson.iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, dshanes@personalogic.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <12686.892272670@time.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan, Your points are well taken. Yes I have loaded the bandwidth with verbiage, and I don't feel picked on either. Please understand that I am somewhat new to the FreeBSD community. Obviously I have strong feelings about FreeBSD and seeing it flower as the fine OS that it is. Further, I in no way intended my remarks to be taken as someone else, the core team or others, should do the work. I understand that the work has to be done by volunteers, like myself. Sadly you sniped my closing sentence where I offered my time in some capacity that would benefit the cause. Nor was I necessarily expecting direction from your group. Perhaps I should have been more clear in my rhetoric. If what I have written is taken as a mere rant, then it has not been read correctly. It is true that my experience is in selling and consulting in the commercial environment, which reads that I have things to learn about how free software is done. I am willing to do just that. You mention RAH RAH!! and warfare, both are subjects that I know a few things about. You don't necessarily need to match the enemy man for man. I once was part of a regiment that faced three full divisions and we emerged victorious!! I can also speak to the part that RAH RAH plays on winning football teams. The idea being that RAH RAH puts the fire in the gut and leads people on to victory what ever the endeavor. Perhaps a core team of volunteers modeled on the way the core development team operates will be just as effective in getting our job done as you are doing yours. Just as you are the leader of the core team our leader will arise from ongoing dialog and compilation of ideas that eventually jell into the business plan that I suggested, and our efforts will have maximum effect. I maybe wrong, not the first time, but it seemed to me to be a reasonable staring point to get the ball rolling. There are many areas that will require coordination inorder to come off as a professional group that has their stuff together. And my intent was and is to get that dialog started and the effort fleshed out. If this discussion has shifted to chat, then that is where I shall go and carry on. I had not known of its existance previously. Again I am offering my time in any capacity that my talents can add value to the effort. BTW, a mutual aquaintance mentioned that there is a remarkable resemblance between yourself and the BSD Daemon ;-) Now is your humor tonight? Regards, Frank On 10 Apr, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > [ Resubjected but left in -hackers with followup set since people seem > to just NOT want to have this conversation in -chat and so be it; > I shall not attempt to hold back the tide. :-) ] > >> 1) A marketing and business plan needs to be developed, objectives and >> target markets clearly documented. FreeBSD strengths clearly delineated > > I'm all for it, but keep in mind the fact that without volunteer labor > to make all these wonderful things actually HAPPEN, it'll be no more > successful than any of our previous attempts at serious marketing. A > lot of the usual voiced indignation and discussion but no actual press > releases written, no articles in the magazines, no books, no public > speaking engagements, in short - no significant action. > > Ask yourselves all for a moment just how you think that Linux's own PR > machine got to be such a monster - is it Linus being an engaging > speaker and spending 350 days out of the year on the road, pounding > the pulpit? No. Linus isn't a bad speaker, in fact, but he's too > busy taking care of his family to go on any road tours and it's not > really due to his efforts that Linux is as successful as it is today > anyway. Linux is wildly successful because it managed to attract, > early on, a hoard of camp followers who didn't hack the sources but > did hack text and produced reams of freely republishable text which > bootstrapped an entire book industry. They published articles in > magazines and wrote letters to the editor. THEY did the big PR push > behind the operating system and, as far as I can see, the developers > were left to do what they do best - develop software. > > I've seen a lot of good ideas in this thread, please don't get me > wrong, but what I've also seen is a disturbing number of posts which > essentially say "Rah rah! Yes! Get organized at the top and do a > bunch of stuff and FreeBSD will win! Here's a list of things I think > you guys should do ..." > > While I do appreciate the ideas, the above approach *seriously* misses > the point, the point being that if you wait for the core team to > aggressively market this OS then you're going to wait a long time and > miss any number of valuable opportunities in the process. More to the > point, you'll fail. I'm sorry, but it's an indisputable fact that the > core team doesn't have any real marketing folks on it at the moment, > nor do we know of any serious marketing folks who are genuinely > willing and able to lead any one-man cavalry charges, so for the time > being what FreeBSD's users all really REALLY need to do is to stop > waiting for someone from the top to "tell them what to do" and just > start doing it themselves! That's exactly what's been going on in the > Linux camp all this time, by the way. People haven't been asking > Linus Torvalds to put together a marketing plan for them before doing > anything, they've just gone right on ahead and done whatever seemed > obvious in the way of marketing/evangelism, and it's WORKING. > > I'm sorry for the use of caps, but this really is a serious problem. > Our users have, by and large, COMPLETELY MISSED the entire concept of > what marketing a free operating system is all about. Perhaps we've > simply been too successful at acting like a corporate entity for folks > to really make the connection that we're still free software and with > all of free software's marketing problems - the fact that everyone's > still waiting for a non-existent central marketing department to pop > up and say "here's the new ad campaign!" sort of suggests this - but > something is definitely wrong here. > > In any case, we don't have a central marketing department and > demanding that we form one in order to solve this problem really does, > again, completely miss the point. When you go to fight a war, you > don't find 5-10 guys and say "guys, the enemy is attacking with 12 > divisions of armored infantry - here are some rifles, go drive them > off!" No, you raise 12 divisions of your own among the populace and > it's the citizens who go off to fight the war on their own behalf. > > Free software is no different - if you want FreeBSD to win, you need > to sit down and _invest the time_ in making tangible things happen, > like writing magazine articles or any of the other activities I've > mentioned so far. It is with you, the user, that the war will either > be won or lost. > > I'm also sorry to make it sound like I'm picking on Frank, I'm not, > I'm simply taking this response as an opportunity to make the point > that people should really stop wasting time asking for instructions on > what to do and simply start DOING something. You don't need > instructions from me or anyone else on the core team on what to do, > you really do know already! I've already listed dozens of good > activities and most people know instinctively what constitutes good PR > - writing books, magazine articles or press releases, giving CDs to > libraries, presenting FreeBSD in schools, telling your friends - all > the things we've covered so far. > > If you're at all typical, your biggest problem is, in fact, simply > finding the time and volition to sit down and DO THE WORK. In this, I > can only suggest simply blocking out some time and saying "OK, enough > talk - this time I'm going to WRITE the friggin' thing!" (whatever > your value for "thing" might be) or getting involved in some > collaborative effort with a friend. Many books in print today were > only completed because several people were involved and managed to > keep one another on track - if one person had tried doing it alone, > it'd never have happened. That's a good point to keep in mind as you > contemplate your own private PR efforts. > > Last of all, please don't worry about "speaking inappropriately for > FreeBSD" - just take the initiative! I've had more than one person > contact me to say "I would have spoken about it at FooLISA but I > didn't want to speak for you guys." Erm.. That's another case of > seriously missing the point - FreeBSD belongs to all of you, we in > core being merely its current custodians, and you need not fear that > you'll be taking some sort of liberties by extolling the virtues of > YOUR operating system! Somebody in -core might send you a nasty-gram > if your arguments consist of nothing more than "Linux sucks! Run > FreeBSD dammit!" but it's still your right to evangelise however you > see fit, albeit hopefully with a modicum of style, and take up the > fight on your own. Don't wait for us! As the Nike commercial says: > Just Do It. :-) > > Jordan -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 00:07:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22609 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22597 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bkogawa@primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21438; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:07:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip205.sjc.primenet.com(206.165.96.205), claiming to be "foo.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd021415; Sat Apr 11 00:07:37 1998 Received: (from bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA10227; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804110708.AAA10227@foo.primenet.com> To: sbabkin@dcn.att.com Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Newsgroups: localhost.freebsd.questions References: From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, mike@smith.net.au, dshanes@personalogic.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat] In localhost.freebsd.questions you write: >And, for example, I can explain why *I* did not bought them. >Because they are just printouts of man pages, partially obsolete. This is true of the books in general, except for the "User Supplementary Documents" and "Programmer's Supplementary Documents", both of which contain useful papers and articles which aren't available on my system. Some of the highlights: documentation on the Bourne shell documentation on troff (as well as on a number of the macro sets) design documentation on the 7th edition Not everyone will find them useful, but I have. -- bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 00:36:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29444 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA29439 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:36:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa20686; 11 Apr 98 3:36 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.18]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA03707 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA05906 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:36:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:36:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > 2. What support to offer. The obvious choices are: > > - first-level user support ("how do I attach an image to a mail > reply?") > > - defect support ("My machine just said "panic: not enough foos" > and rebooted. What do I do?"). > > - programming support ("I've just updated my Yoyodyne frobulator > to the new, improved YYD-64. Can you write a driver for me, > please?") > > - Education. A tier structured services list seems apropriate. I remember liking the way Cyngus had it broken down a few years ago. Basically it ranged from "we provide working binairies", "we'll fix that bug in x weeks", "we'll fix that bug in x days" to "we'll add that requested feature". Since the world is a bit more complex than when read up on Cygnus' options, I think a few parallel tracks of support options would be better. I could see a guru being capable in all areas, but who's kidding whom? It is more likely that people want to specailize a bit in say the WWW/FTP, mail/SMTP, intranet development, system administration, security, etc. axes. > This is by no means an exhaustive list. Can it ever be exhaustive? I guess the catch all guru consultants would be the "star" team, whose motto would be "I specailize in *." > > 3. What to charge. Obviously the fee should be more as the potential problem range exapands. How to adjust this for varying regions seems more the trick. Where do you expect this company to be picking up it's clients? The UK, Europe, USA? Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 08:59:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19930 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA19918 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199804111557.LAA12964@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:00:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mark Mayo cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <19980410150331.16376@vmunix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: > University of Guelph here in Soutern Ontario, this means NT. The side > effect of this is, due purely to economic and time issues, CS departments > are picking *ONE* Unix environment. PCs are perfect. Dual boot them with > NT and Linux, and you've got the best of both worlds. 2 simple systems > for you admins to maintain, and you can market your program as providing > students qualified in Windows and UNIX. So you're not producing software engineers, you're producing programmers. I haven't finished my degree, but the CS classes I was taking concentrated as much on why as they did on how. Platform is immaterial in this environment, with the exception that whatever platform you use has to be flexible and well documented. NT doesn't meet either requirement. Linux would do fine, but you can't trust to find stable backwards compatible releases. -- Jamie Bowden Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 08:59:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19944 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:59:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA19917 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lfloyd@sonic.net) Received: (qmail 3566 invoked from network); 11 Apr 1998 14:58:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 11 Apr 1998 14:58:05 -0000 Received: from sonic.net (d172.pm5.sonic.net [208.201.229.172]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00693 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:59:36 -0700 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <352F9402.64A0AEA5@sonic.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:02:10 -0700 From: "L. Floyd" Reply-To: lfloyd@sonic.net Organization: MonkeyPuzzle Solutions X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The issue of support Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I work for an environmental consulting firm that mainly uses PCs (Win 3.x and Win95) hooked to an NT server using Banyan. We have about 1,000 employees nationwide tied together by a WAN. The other day I was talking to one of the IS support people about alternative OSs. I was astonished (at first) to hear that our Corp IS folks would never consider using an operating system that is free. They feel better about spending money for the product, especially if it has good support. They are savy enough or experienced enough to figure out problems on their own. So, in the case of FreeBSD, "support" may invite more corporate users to consider using it.... perhaps. (Of course I did mention that there was massive support via the Internet, but that didn't fly.) - Larry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 10:00:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29830 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA04647; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:55:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: David Dawes cc: John Fieber , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] In-Reply-To: <19980411143046.35436@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved from -current to -chat] On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, David Dawes wrote: > I have a copy of "The Concise Oxford Dictionary", 6th ed (1976). It > shows both forms, with the "z" version preferred. > > Also, "The Macquarie Dictionary", 1st ed, revised (1985), which is > considered by many to be the reference for English as used in Australia > shows both with the "s" version preferred. This isn't about dictionaries. This is about grammar, spelling, and language. Where the heck do dictionaries come in? Dictionaries are for authors who lack confidence in their writing and need the reassurance of some acadame locked away in a room somewhere. [Ok, I'm being a little harsh --- I do sometimes refer to dictionaries when writing :-] > "English" form (consistent with traditional Unix 'spell -b'), but some > time ago an Englishman who was somewhat pedantic about such things > pointed out that this wasn't the case (referencing the Oxford English Did he belong to our specific cultural group, ie. FreeBSD hackers? If not, then his opinion is irrelevant. :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 10:15:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03311 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:15:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03300 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07286; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:11:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Mark Mayo cc: FreeBSD Chat , David Dawes , John Fieber Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] In-Reply-To: <19980411011611.17670@vmunix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Mark Mayo wrote: > Just for the record, the Canadian English version also uses 's', although > 'z' is also acceptable.. Obviously, being a bilingual country (at least > in theory..) with French as the second language, Canadian English has > many french'isms.. The most notable differences are the use of "ise" > over "ize" in most circumstances, the spelling of some "er" ending Hm. My ITP Nelson Canadian dictionary seems to prefer -ize over -ise. Locally, at least, it feels like -ize is preferred, although "locally" is pretty close to the US. > words with "re", and many "or" ending words with "our". Examples are > centre, metre, colour, etc, etc.. Ah, but that's because those endings are superior to the American ones! :) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 11:11:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10959 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10941 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15877; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:07:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: David Dawes , John Fieber , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > hackers? If not, then his opinion is irrelevant. :) Re-reading this, don't let my over-use of smilies mislead you wrt. what I'm saying! -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 11:47:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15013 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:47:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14867 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-170.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.170]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA17168; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:01 GMT Message-ID: <352FBA55.1AA7C450@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:45:41 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <199804110511.AAA03462@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John S. Dyson wrote: > I just want to chime in (again) and suggest showing enthusiasm and > competency. However, I STRONGLY suggest that we not show arrogance > or an excessively superior attitude. We have so many good things > on our side (including being very reasonable and careful with our > claims.) Let's be extremely enthusiastic, and at the same time > being very honest about what we are and aren't. Credibility is > critical, and that is one of our major assets. We don't use > terms like 'Kewl' and 'rulz', even though we have users and developers > of all age groups. We all try to chip-in, and don't have any sort of > cult of personality. > > I think that we all want to be a part of a "class act". Definitely! I would much rather have the _best_ lesser-known OS without dumbing down our presentation to the point of imprecise English to draw in GenX. Let Linux cater to that crowd, but let us be forthright in expressing our enthusiasm. Grog's example post was perfect in tone and honesty. I do think that there is a place for How-To's geared towards the hobbyist as well as the well-organized documentation all of us need, and we also need a place (besides -chat!) for expressing the FUN that FreeBSD provides as well as its utility. For example... I've never met Jordan, but I've heard rumors of both sideburns and motorcyles that just cry out for an xmorph'ed caricature on the Web... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 11:53:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16463 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16340 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:52:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09193; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804111852.LAA09193@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: lfloyd@sonic.net cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Leverage In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:02:10 PDT." <352F9402.64A0AEA5@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:52:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It helps a lot if you can find a company in the same kind of business or at least the same size which is using FreeBSD . In other words, give them a reference and a lot of times is a matter of showing that some in the "pack" are using FreeBSD and the rest of the "Suits" would not mind joining the "pack". You have to lead them like a herd of sheeps 8) Cheers, Amancio > I work for an environmental consulting firm that mainly uses PCs (Win > 3.x and Win95) hooked to an NT server using Banyan. We have about 1,000 > employees nationwide tied together by a WAN. The other day I was > talking to one of the IS support people about alternative OSs. I was > astonished (at first) to hear that our Corp IS folks would never > consider using an operating system that is free. They feel better about > spending money for the product, especially if it has good support. They > are savy enough or experienced enough to figure out problems on their > own. > > So, in the case of FreeBSD, "support" may invite more corporate users to > consider using it.... perhaps. > > (Of course I did mention that there was massive support via the > Internet, but that didn't fly.) > > - Larry > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 11:57:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17267 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rfcnet.com (mattc@[207.227.20.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17235 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mattc@rfcnet.com) Received: (from mattc@localhost) by rfcnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04618; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:56:46 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mattc) Message-ID: <19980411135646.54588@rfcnet.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:56:46 -0500 From: Matthew Cashdollar To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: More ignorance about BSD.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i x-no-archive: yes Organization: RF Communications, Inc. http://www.rfcinc.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just read this today.. another article from Eric Raymond, author of the "Cathedral and Bazaar" paper... -------cut------------------------------------------------------------- To pragmatists, the GPL is important as a tool rather than an end in itself. Its main value is not as a weapon against `hoarding', but as a tool for encouraging software sharing and the growth of bazaar-mode development communities. The pragmatist values having good tools and toys more than he dislikes commercialism, and may use high-quality commercial software without ideological discomfort. At the same time, his open-source experience has taught him standards of technical quality that very little closed software can meet. For many years, the pragmatist point of view expressed itself within the hacker culture mainly as a stubborn current of refusal to completely buy into the GPL in particular or the FSF's agenda in general. Through the 1980s and early 1990s, this attitude tended to be associated with fans of Berkeley Unix, users of the BSD license, and the early efforts to build open-source Unixes from the BSD source base. These efforts, however, failed to build bazaar communities of significant size, and became seriously fragmented and ineffective. Not until the Linux explosion of early 1993-1994 did pragmatism find a real power base. Although Linus Torvalds never made a point of opposing RMS, he set an example by looking benignly on the growth of a commercial Linux industry, by publicly endorsing the use of high- quality commercial software for specific tasks, and by gently deriding the more purist and fanatical elements in the culture. A side effect of the rapid growth of Linux was the induction of a large number of new hackers for which Linux was their primary loyalty and the FSF's agenda primarily of historical interest. Though the newer wave of Linux hackers might describe the system as ``the choice of a GNU generation'', most tended to emulate Torvalds more than Stallman. -------cut------------------------------------------------------------- (You can read the whole article at http://earthspace.net/~esr/writings/homesteading/homesteading.html) This guy really badmouths RMS, but I think his comments about BSD falling apart were probably just out of ignorance rather than malice. Ignorance seems to be the number one problem with the Linux people. They will all agree that "Linux is better than FreeBSD." but they can't come up with any reason why and 99% of them have never even used a BSD system!! -- Matthew Cashdollar RF Communications, Inc. -- http://www.rfcinc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 12:08:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18635 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18367 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17967; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:06:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804111906.NAA17967@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:06:45 -0600 To: Matthew Cashdollar , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More ignorance about BSD.. In-Reply-To: <19980411135646.54588@rfcnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:56 PM 4/11/98 -0500, Matthew Cashdollar wrote: >This guy really badmouths RMS, but I think his comments about BSD >falling apart were probably just out of ignorance rather than malice. > >Ignorance seems to be the number one problem with the Linux people. >They will all agree that "Linux is better than FreeBSD." but they can't >come up with any reason why and 99% of them have never even used a BSD >system!! Agreed. My personal take is that the BSD movement did not gather as much steam as Linux because IT WAS AHEAD OF ITS TIME. The timing of Linux just happened to be better, so it garnered more press and more recognition. This should change. Again, it's time to form a team and raise money to support it -- perhaps via the marketing of books, disks, and/or technical support. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 12:38:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24415 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24343 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22814; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:42:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980411154213.23863@vmunix.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:42:13 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Just one more thing and I'll shut up about this... References: <19817.892306307@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19817.892306307@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 07:51:47AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 07:51:47AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > But anyone looking for a reasonable "marketing template" need, IMHO, > look no further than http://www.redhat.com. What they have as their > home page is actually what I would consider an excellent format for an > http://www.freebsd.org/news.html sort of page. If anyone would like > to massage our existing Newsflash information into something > resembling this example and put it up for viewing, I'd be quite keen > to see it! [moved to -chat in a hopeless attempt to get this jabber off -hackers] Okay. I'm going to try it. I just talked to a top notch designer friend of mine, and I'm going to trade hours with him to get his company to create a marketing front end for FreeBSD (this means that I'll have to do some really painful sysadmin stuff for him.. arghh.. a worthy sacrifice though). This guy is awesome, so hopefully we'll get something really slick out of it. I'll keep ya posted as to how it turns out. These guys are really fun to work with, but normally charge insane amounts (figures that make me wonder why I'm not into advertising..). I was able to sucker him into it by phrasing the question as "Hey, wanna design a major marketing campaign for me, and market the fuck out of an unknown free product??" What artsy graphic designer could resist that? ;-) (sorry for the language, but that's a quote.. ;) I'm hoping they'll set me up with a whole bunch of "boilerplate" press release templates that we can use to generate appropriate PRs for things like major projects, new releases, cooperation with others, etc, etc.. At any rate, it will give me a chance to see how a first class advertising house does things, which should be good experience for selling FreeBSD to the masses. One other thing: where can I get full sized version of the cute chuck daemon we use? Getting the originals would help tremendously.. -Mark > > Jordan > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 13:43:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03815 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:43:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03803 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id NAA19610 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:42:52 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id NAA10072 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:41:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Changes to X11 licensing with X11R6.4 In-Reply-To: <199804071524.IAA29054@kithrup.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > First of all: everyone who buys a CD-ROM must agree to the license. That > means paperwork. > > WC must now keep track of sales and give this information to a third party. > (Admittedly, they do this already to a degree, for Chuckie.) Go ask, say, Xi, > about what it's like to sell Motif. > > I read the license. It's a binary-only license. I couldn't find anything in > it about selling source licenses. I truly hope I missed something. > > Lastly, it's morally objectionable. I won't pay it. Ever. Not to The Open > Group. I must first admit that I am a latecomer to the free software community. My discussion may be impeachable in this regard. Still, I sincerely "believe" in free software. The open group documents make specific mention of XFree86 not having to pay royalties to distribute X11R6.4. Getting XFree86 X11R6.4 free of charge from the net seems feasible given the exception that TOG specifically makes. How this relates to WC putting "XFree86 royalty free X11R6.4" on a CD and selling it is beyond me. WC might be considered to have made a derived work for commercial purposes and therefore subject themselves to a royalty. I adhere to the "morally objectionable" statement made above. This is the crux of the freely available software dilemna. The same issues abound when one considers "GPL vs BSD" licensing. How do we reap the benefits of free software without being taken advantage of by commercial efforts? Should we worry about being taken advantage of? The feeling I get is that TOG does not want folks getting a free ride. Yet their is something sinister in their position. So here comes my argument... My concern and fear is the TOG have themselves gone commercial. Their website hits me as a commercial effort all the way. You sure can purchase a lot of "credibilty" (sic) from them by putting one silly brand or another from them on your software. They somehow try to spin this into a "we are doing it for your own good" issue. (IMHO) You know. FreeBSD would be a lot better if it had a "UNIX Brand" (tm) on it. JKH, fork out the license fee now !!! (heavy sarcasm) My other concern is that TOG wants to "take" from the free software community (read you and me) and give to themselves. Their position smacks of an elitism that they are the protectors of the faith looking out for the best interests of the serfdom. They want to take something that has heretofore been "free", encumber it with royalties, and then claim that they are acting in "our" best interests. Their is a big question remaining to be asked. It is eluded to on the XFree86 site. They are "considering" their position regarding the new licensing. Shall the free unix community (including all of us bsd types and linux folks) break ranks with TOG and build from X11R6.3 or fall in line with TOG? If we fall in line with TOG, then I submit that we detract from the free software cause. Regarding the TOG highly _CONTRIVED_ FAQ at http://www.camb.opengroup.org/tech/desktop/x/xlicensefaq.htm **** block quote **** Question: Will the "free" community be able to use this technology, or does this just split the industry into free and proprietary branches? Answer: X Window System technology continues to be free to the "free" community. We've heard rumblings that this change will force suppliers of "free" technology to stop shipping X11. We don't agree. Organizations like XFree86 will continue to be able to distribute X as they do today. But, companies who take the "free" technology and sell it, will not. Companies making money distributing X Window System technology should support its development. Many do not today. The end result is that there is not enough funds to keep it going. The "free" community may feels they want to reimplement the technology so they can give it away to other companies to sell. That could fragment the industry. **** end block quote **** OBTW, TOG arrogantly states the free software community could end up guilty of fragmenting the industry. This annoys me. TOG has made the split. Period. End of discussion. This statement is an attempt to villanize the folks who believe free software should be free. "There won't be enough funds..." Has there ever been enough funds? Enough funds for who? Enough funds for TOG? I am skeptical in this regard. Does FreeBSD have enough funds? Does FreeBSD enforce a roaylty? The answer is no on both counts. Well, after all this discussion, I read the XFreee86 site. Boy what a waste of typing. It seems things have already been settled. There position is here http://www.Xfree86.org/news/pr-980407.html . Most notably, "The TOG licensing change is incompatible with the goals of XFree86 and most of the free software community that have been in communication with The XFree86 Project directors over the last week." Bravo XFree86! Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 13:47:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04489 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04455 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:47:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id NAA28458 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:47:30 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id NAA01743 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:46:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: XFree86 splits with Opengroup Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.Xfree86.org/news/pr-980407.html For those of you who want the short version. ** block quote ** "The TOG licensing change is incompatible with the goals of XFree86 and most of the free software community that have been in communication with The XFree86 Project directors over the last week. Some have made the point that the change would make it extremely difficult for their projects to ship physical media which contains TOG derived product, and they've made their preference for unencumbered X11R6.3-based source releases overwhelmingly clear. A fundamental part of XFree86's mission is service to the free software community. As a result, The XFree86 Project is opposed to TOG's new licensing terms." ** end block quote ** Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 14:34:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11759 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com ([209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11753 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:34:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA21093; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980411143419.59732@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:34:19 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: Sue Blake , Jamie Bowden , "John S. Dyson" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199804092221.RAA02226@dyson.iquest.net> <199804101218.IAA09779@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19980410223816.65012@welearn.com.au> <352EE490.F8ACD7D0@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <352EE490.F8ACD7D0@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:33:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 08:33:36PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > How about a -list devoted to publicity ideas, press contacts and > evangelism? I'd plug in! Those who want to hack, -hack. Those who want > to grow the pool of hackers, freebsd-plug! > I have put up a web page of colmnist and press contacts for 2 of the industry rags that I read. I'll put up more as I come across them. If anyone has more contacts please send them to me. The page can be found at: http://www.MooseRiver.com/contacts.html Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 16:31:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:31:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic13.pm07.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29832; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id QAA22162; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980411163045.41076@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:30:46 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , David Shanes , Brett Glass , hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <6218.892195002@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <6218.892195002@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 12:56:42AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 10, 1998 at 12:56:42AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Where do I sign up? > > "FreeBSD Marketing: Who Do You Want To Picket And Beat To Death With Stats > > Today?" > > Heh, you joke, but Mike Smith and I were kicking ourselves today > thinking "DAMN! After that big Linux user's group meeting, a big bus > went up to the Mozilla party several times with busloads of Linux > advocates and what a wasted opportunity! We could have had a guy in a > Chuck costume standing there, handing out FreeBSD CDs (along with a > little pamphlet describing how a Linux user might evaluate and > possibly transition to FreeBSD) to each person getting off the bus. > Damn damn damn! We suck at marketing!" > > Our comments were half in jest, but little PR stunts like this, done > in the proper humor, are seriously worth doing if you can pull them > off. It'd also be kinda nice if we pulled one off occasionally rather > than just thinking about it afterwards, and for that we need better > advance notification and planning when such opportunities present > themselves. Should any of you spot such an opportunity and need some > help in making it happen, let us know! > > Jordan > Moving this to Chat.... Networld + Interop 98 will be in Las Vegas the week of May 4-8. Is FreeBSD going to have a representive there? If not, are there any FreeBSD people in and around Las Vegas who might want to pass out free copies of 2.2.5. This would be a good start. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:14:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05190 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:14:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05162 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:13:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21686; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:43:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA22310; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:43:52 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980412094352.28153@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:43:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: lfloyd@sonic.net Cc: FreeBSD Chat , supporters@nanyang-computer.com Subject: Re: The issue of support References: <352F9402.64A0AEA5@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <352F9402.64A0AEA5@sonic.net>; from L. Floyd on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 09:02:10AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 9:02:10 -0700, L. Floyd wrote: > I work for an environmental consulting firm that mainly uses PCs (Win > 3.x and Win95) hooked to an NT server using Banyan. We have about 1,000 > employees nationwide tied together by a WAN. The other day I was > talking to one of the IS support people about alternative OSs. I was > astonished (at first) to hear that our Corp IS folks would never > consider using an operating system that is free. They feel better about > spending money for the product, especially if it has good support. They > are savy enough or experienced enough to figure out problems on their > own. > > So, in the case of FreeBSD, "support" may invite more corporate users to > consider using it.... perhaps. > > (Of course I did mention that there was massive support via the > Internet, but that didn't fly.) You may have missed the announcement I sent out yesterday. I've set up a mailing list to discuss the matter of commercial support at supporters@nanyang-computer.com. If you want to sign up, send mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com with 'subscribe supporters' in the body of the message. You raise an interesting point: should a commercially supported version of FreeBSD cost money (not much, but enough)? How about 'FeeBSD'? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:17:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05813 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05706 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21702; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:47:40 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA22340; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:47:40 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980412094740.25837@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:47:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Tim Vanderhoek , David Dawes Cc: John Fieber , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] References: <19980411143046.35436@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 12:55:58PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 12:55:58 -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > [moved from -current to -chat] > > On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, David Dawes wrote: > >> I have a copy of "The Concise Oxford Dictionary", 6th ed (1976). It >> shows both forms, with the "z" version preferred. >> >> Also, "The Macquarie Dictionary", 1st ed, revised (1985), which is >> considered by many to be the reference for English as used in Australia >> shows both with the "s" version preferred. > > This isn't about dictionaries. This is about grammar, spelling, > and language. Where the heck do dictionaries come in? > Dictionaries are for authors who lack confidence in their > writing and need the reassurance of some acadame locked away in a > room somewhere. Right. Keep spelling part of the oral tradition, where it belongs. Somebody really pressed your button, didn't they? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:21:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07020 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au ([203.36.2.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07008 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:21:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.7) id KAA11953; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:20:30 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199804120020.KAA11953@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: The issue of support In-Reply-To: <19980412094352.28153@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 12, 98 09:43:52 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:20:30 +1000 (EST) Cc: lfloyd@sonic.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, supporters@nanyang-computer.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > You raise an interesting point: should a commercially supported > version of FreeBSD cost money (not much, but enough)? How about > 'FeeBSD'? I think that the $$ paid by a company to obtain commercial support should be attached to "support" part, not the freely available OS. A support CD set might contain a super-set of what is on the current CDs. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:25:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07498 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07486 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@cybercom.net) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-27.cybercom.net [209.21.137.27]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14961; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:25:38 -0400 To: Gary Kline From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" (moved to chat) Cc: Chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199804101747.KAA15159@tao.thought.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Has anyone considered the possible benefits of having an online magazine? This could reduce distribution costs dramatically while allowing us to get a sense of how much interest there is in this sort of service before commiting money to creating an actual magazine in print. K.S. At 01:47 PM 4/10/98 , you wrote: > > We need a starting point. A number of years ago I saw the > first issue of the Linux magazine. Then heard no more > about it. I was pleased that at last the Free Unix world > has a real (paper) rag in circulation; and the following > year when I began running FreeBSD I thought that it would > be nice if this Linux pub could be merged in with the FBSD > world. > > <> > > Well, I've heard the buzzer there. But it still leaves open > the issue of having a pay-for or free FBSD publication. > Quarterly at first; then perhaps bi-monthly. > > I've seen one of the ``Announcement'' circulars from WC//FBSD. > Could this serve as our house organ? Say 4 to 8 pages for the > first few issues. And expanding. > > I was a writer several lifetimes ago, and altho tech writing > is nearly beyond me (it ain't easy, folks), I'd be willing > to invest time in a *BSD magazine. > > There are hundreds or thousands among the BSD users more > skilled than I, so should be no lack of articles. We could > also have an online magazine; either ASCII-only or HTML > distributed by email. > > Publicizing the Berkeley Software Distribution will require > sweat; and imagination. It shouldn't take that much capital. > > gary > >> > > >-- > Gary D. Kline kline@tao.thought.org Public service uNix > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:37:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08459 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08437 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-82.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.82]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA70836; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:37:19 GMT Message-ID: <35300CB5.26A46E86@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:37:09 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Matthew D. Fuller" , David Shanes , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" References: <6218.892195002@time.cdrom.com> <19980411163045.41076@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: [snip] > > Our comments were half in jest, but little PR stunts like this, done > > in the proper humor, are seriously worth doing if you can pull them > > off. It'd also be kinda nice if we pulled one off occasionally rather > > than just thinking about it afterwards, and for that we need better > > advance notification and planning when such opportunities present > > themselves. Should any of you spot such an opportunity and need some > > help in making it happen, let us know! > > > > Jordan > > > > Moving this to Chat.... > > Networld + Interop 98 will be in Las Vegas the week of May 4-8. Is FreeBSD > going to have a representive there? If not, are there any FreeBSD people in > and around Las Vegas who might want to pass out free copies of 2.2.5. This > would be a good start. > I will be there - the 7th only - for John Gallant's ExtraNet War Stories panel (C40) I'm one of three speakers, and he included me on the basis of my crowing about FreeBSD in a business setting. That will be the basis of my talk: FreeBSD, Apache, Perl, etc. I would _love_ to have a case of 2.2.5 CD's to hand out, and I intend to show off Grog's book as well. I'll be at the Circus Circus the evening of the 6th, if anybody would like to connect. I was thinking of making a little pamphlet, but CD's would be awesome. Don Wilde Soligen, Inc. 19408 Londelius Street Northridge, CA 91324-3511 (818) 718-1221 don@partsnow.com | dwilde1@ibm.net > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:38:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08774 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08761 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA51456; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:38:03 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA09924; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:36:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: Chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" (moved to chat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > Has anyone considered the possible benefits of having an online magazine? > This could reduce distribution costs dramatically while allowing us to get > a sense of how much interest there is in this sort of service before > commiting money to creating an actual magazine in print. Yes. It is called the FreeBSD newsletter. It is online one the website. You can view it with the linux version of acrobat. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:51:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11518 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic13.pm07.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11511 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id RAA22820; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980411175132.31085@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:51:32 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Matthew D. Fuller" , David Shanes , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <6218.892195002@time.cdrom.com> <19980411163045.41076@mooseriver.com> <35300CB5.26A46E86@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: <35300CB5.26A46E86@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 05:37:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 05:37:09PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Josef Grosch wrote: > [snip] [ DELETED ] > > > > Networld + Interop 98 will be in Las Vegas the week of May 4-8. Is FreeBSD > > going to have a representive there? If not, are there any FreeBSD people in > > and around Las Vegas who might want to pass out free copies of 2.2.5. This > > would be a good start. > > > > I will be there - the 7th only - for John Gallant's ExtraNet War Stories > panel (C40) I'm one of three speakers, and he included me on the basis > of my crowing about FreeBSD in a business setting. That will be the > basis of my talk: FreeBSD, Apache, Perl, etc. I would _love_ to have a > case of 2.2.5 CD's to hand out, and I intend to show off Grog's book as > well. I'll be at the Circus Circus the evening of the 6th, if anybody > would like to connect. I was thinking of making a little pamphlet, but > CD's would be awesome. > Talk to Jordan, jkh@freebsd.org. Last I heard he was trying to get FreeBSD CDs included in every box of Capt. Crunch ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.5 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 17:53:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11829 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ppp1698.on.bellglobal.com (ppp1698.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11821 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:53:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by ppp1698.on.bellglobal.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA01930; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:51:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: ppp1698.on.bellglobal.com: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:51:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Greg Lehey cc: Tim Vanderhoek , David Dawes , John Fieber , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Misspelling in lib/libutil/login_cap.3 [w/ patch] In-Reply-To: <19980412094740.25837@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > Right. Keep spelling part of the oral tradition, where it belongs. As email replaces the telephone, "oral tradition" becomes somewhat of a misnomer. -- tIM...HOEk OPTIMIZATION: the process of using many one-letter variables names hoping that the resultant code will run faster. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 18:05:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14960 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:05:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crb.mnsinc.com [206.239.213.225]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14930 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00995; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:07:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:07:40 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Mark Mayo , kris@airnet.net, David Shanes , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fw: Your Article "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" In-Reply-To: <12130.892266950@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >These are great points - you want to write up a paper on "getting >FreeBSD into academic environments" and I'll print it in the >newsletter? Seriously, the points you've made are too useful to see >just vanish into the mailing list archives.. > > Jordan I'll tell you where FreeBSD really shined for me. When I was designing my last two VLSI chips for a course I took at the University of Maryland. My PPro 200 ran Magic, Spice and IRSIM faster than the Sparc 5s at school that we were using. Set up from the ports system was unbelievably easy and when you are spending 16 and 18 hours a day working on a chip design that absolutely has to be out by Monday. Not haveing to drive into school to work in the lab, not haveing to log out, and leave the lab to pee or eat, and risk loosing your workstation because everyone else has to get their final exam projects in, can really save your but. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 18:10:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16333 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16317 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:10:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-82.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.82]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA31414; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:10:18 GMT Message-ID: <35301472.D1ED5DB0@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:10:10 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: XFree86 splits with Opengroup References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My impression from the descriptions I read when I was DL XFree86 3.3.1 sources was that their (TOG) roadmap was heading towards more integration in 6.4 with the commercial SYSV implementations. It was obvious to me then that this would happen sooner or later, because it was almost baldly stated. If you look at TOG participants, they're mostly from commercial UNIX, not academia or freeware. When MIT passed the baton to TOG, the writing was on the wall. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 18:46:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21324 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id SAA23406 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:39 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id SAA29725 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:45:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Rhapsody and FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently posted a question to -questions that is more appropriately discussed here. I include the message that I refer to after my .sig for your reference. To have apple express _direct_ interest in FreeBSD is the BOON of a lifetime. I invite someone to tell me that a relationship with Apple would be bad for FreeBSD. (As a side note, mac users tend to be rebellious against MS as much as any free software user. To this end, the two groups are compatible. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.) Consider this possible (yet fictitious) headline. "Apple Computer Incorporates Free Software" Free software seems to be on the upswing. On the coattails of Netscape's recent announcement to distribute Navigator source code, Apple Computer announced today that it will use FreeBSD in the core of its operating system called "Rhapsody." Rhapsody is Apple Computer's answer to Windows NT. The addition of FreeBSD code.... But seriously, has anyone talked to this guy? This is one question to which I would like an answer. If Apple Computer used FreeBSD source that would be HUGE bragging rights. If Apple reverted its gain back to FreeBSD in the form of "G3 port" of FreeBSD, that would give FreeBSD another platform to run on. Good Gawd. I can't think of anything bad to say about this. Moreover, this one issue is of significant import to the entire free software cause. How big do I think this is? I think there isn't enough disc space in the world to say its BIIIIIIII................IIIIG. I feel that this could be the single most significant opportunity for FreeBSD to gain the "attention" that so much recent discussion indicates that the community is clammoring for. I want ORA to ':%s/Linux/FreeBSD/' every single line of text in their sources. If Apple dumps us for another BSD or ::gasp:: Linux then we can sit down and go back to talking about how nice it would be to have O'Reilly publish a FreeBSD book. Ho hum. The issue of resources always comes up. It seems the expenditure of GOOD WILL is the initial expense. We can do that right? If I don't hear that FreeBSD is considering this in the next couple of days, I think I will CC Jordan directly. I would hate for him (and all of us) to have missed this opportunity. (Poor Jordan. He is still the de facto president. :)) Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html >From wsanchez@apple.com Sat Apr 4 23:46:09 1998 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 98 20:46:22 -0800 From: Wilfredo Sanchez To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD and Rhapsody Howdy- I'm having a hard time figuring out how one becomes a FreeBSD developer from your web site, so perhaps you guys can help me out. I work for Apple Computer, and as you may know, we're building this operating system with the code name Rhapsody. Rhapsody has a full BSD subsystem in it, and we'd like to get a relationship going with FreeBSD if the FreeBSD team is interested. Most of our BSD code comes from 4BSD Lite, which is a bit dated. Since last year, I've updated a lot of our user commands using NetBSD's sources. The decision to use NetBSD was pretty much arbitrary, although the fact that I can acces their code via CVS, and now can commit changes back in was a big influence. In any case, the BSD kernel guys at Apple usually use FreeBSD as a reference. This led to some small gotchas due to differences between NetBSD and FreeBSD, such as the fact that NetBSD lets you change mode bits on symlinks, which FreeBSD (I think) doesn't. So I had a little trouble with commands like cp, which tried to do this thing we don't support. I haven't gotten to the network and system commands and the libraries, where I think the biggest incompatibility problem lie, and the consensus is that I should look into using FreeBSD for those. There will be problems in any case, since we implement BSD over Mach, which makes commands like ps somewhat unique from other BSD's, but the goal is to minimize that. What I need to know is the degree that you would like to work together with Apple, if at all, in this regard. It's important that we be able to send our changes back upstream, since I believe that staying in sync with our source provider is more important than any competitive advantage that might buy us. UNIX is of little importance to Rhapsody from a market standpoint; there are plenty of good UNIX flavors that one can get for free; the value in Rhapsody lies elsewhere. But BSD *is* important for several reason, which I'm sure you appreciate. The key is we don't want to provide "a better UNIX", we just want to be compatible and play nice with other systems, and have all that functionality. To that end, we don't need to be unique, and cooperating with you guys would be much better. I tried a few times to get CVSup to work on Rhapsody, and I found it somewhat difficult, so I don't have that tool, although I could set up a FreeBSD box to do that. Currently I plan to use the Walnut Creek CDs, since that's more convenient. The question is how I would get changes back up to FreeBSD. CVS access would be ideal, and is our current arrangement with NetBSD. I understand that such access isn't easily granted, so I'm open to alternatives. I should mention that I'm really not all that interested in the merits of one BSD effort over the others. I'm a little surprised at the animosity between some developers toward the other groups, and don't really want to get involved in that debate, so don't tell me why the other guys stink, in case you are so inclined. I have no loyalties towards any one group. Ideally, we'd get the best of each, although I think we'll need a primary to keep things sane, and our kernel guys like FreeBSD. I believe that getting something set up that let us work together will be mutually beneficial. We can leverage the work you have done, and you can some paid developers to help with bugs. Thanks, -Fred --- Wilfredo Sanchez - wsanchez@apple.com - 408.974-5174 Apple Computer, Inc. - Rhapsody Core Operating Systems Group 2 Infinite Loop, Mail Stop 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 19:04:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23740 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kalypso.cybercom.net (kalypso.cybercom.net [209.21.136.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23696 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@cybercom.net) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-27.cybercom.net [209.21.137.27]) by kalypso.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18916; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804120203.WAA18916@kalypso.cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:37:01 -0400 To: "Jason C. Wells" From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" (moved to chat) Cc: Chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:36 PM 4/11/98 , Jason C. Wells wrote: >On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > >> Has anyone considered the possible benefits of having an online magazine? >> This could reduce distribution costs dramatically while allowing us to get >> a sense of how much interest there is in this sort of service before >> commiting money to creating an actual magazine in print. > >Yes. It is called the FreeBSD newsletter. It is online one the website. >You can view it with the linux version of acrobat. > Given the origins of this conversation in trying to promote FreeBSD, it hurts me to hear that I have to use a non-native reader to read our newsletter. :-( I assume that the Windows Acrobat will work just as well? K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 19:11:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24316 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24305 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:11:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12568; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804120211.TAA12568@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Rhapsody and FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:45:26 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:11:01 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We can start by killing this thread. Apple and FreeBSD topics in an open forum topic is a No-No per Apple's representative. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 19:16:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24767 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24679; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA21864; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:45:22 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA24215; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:45:20 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980412114520.A24192@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:45:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty , Cory Kempf Cc: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Sound on DK440LX? Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <199804100347.UAA09169@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199804100347.UAA09169@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Thu, Apr 09, 1998 at 08:47:00PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 April 1998 at 20:47:00 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> As per Greg's request, this is being re-sent to -current. Sorry if you are >> seeing this twice. >> >> FWIW, I am running a slightly old current. > > Greg should have forwarded you to the multimedia mailing list :( Good question. I've currently been evangalizing a little on -questions to get people running -CURRENT to post their views on -CURRENT. What do you people think? Is that still the right thing to do when the question relates to multimedia (as in this case) or Emacs mail (as in another recent case)? I know you (Amancio) are trying to increase the volume and the visibility of the multimedia list, but that's not the case in all lists, and it would be nice to have a uniform "right" way of doing things. Followup to -chat, please. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 19:38:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28084 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27982; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12732; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:38:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804120238.TAA12732@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD Chat cc: Cory Kempf , multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sound on DK440LX? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:45:20 +0930." <19980412114520.A24192@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:38:35 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't mean to sound rude . Multimedia related questions to -multimedia. The primary reason for doing so is focus additionally we frequently have to deal with issues that are not related to FreeBSD. As we grow we have to attempt comparmentilize the mailing lists for I am sure that the -current or -hackers readers will not appreciate a flood of questions: like my sound card does not work . Damn, I can't get my Bt848 to recognize my tuner, etc... Last but not least I am not putting this out to a democratic vote and as a contributor I appreciate the groups support in this matter. Tnks, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 19:57:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00657 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00605; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA25209; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd025207; Sun Apr 12 02:50:46 1998 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:45:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: FreeBSD Chat cc: FreeBSD Questions , FreeBSD Hackers , newbies@freebie.lemis.com Subject: Re: SPAM: Commercial support for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980411144425.64484@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been thinking of doing this myself for a couple of years. But I've had too much 'real FreeBSD work' to push too hard on the idea. julian (E) On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > Sorry for the spam. This will be the only message I send to these > lists--please respect the Reply-To: header and follow up either to > chat@FreeBSD.org or supporters@nanyang-computer.com. > > One of the points raised in the recent flurry of messages about more > visibility for FreeBSD is the question of support. We've discussed > this at length before, but somehow the discussions gradually sickered > away and we were no closer to a solution. > > A company I do a lot of work for, Nan Yang Computer Services Ltd., is > interested in providing commercial support for FreeBSD. They're a > *very* low-profile company in England, and they'll expect to be > involved mainly in the billing. This means that the people they're > looking for have to do just about everything else themselves, more > like consultants than employees. > > With this background, I'd like to solicit discussion on the subject. > I've set up a mailing list supporters@nanyang-computer.com. Sign up > in the traditional manner: send mail to majordomo@nanyang-computer.com > with the text 'subscribe supporters' in the message body. > > My intention at this stage is to discuss to following topics: > > 1. How to set up a world-wide commercial support organization for > FreeBSD. One of the things that I expect to be of great advantage > is that the people involved will be accessible via the Internet, > so it should be possible to provide 24x7 coverage. In keeping > with Nan Yang's low-key image, I don't envisage any commercial > premises for the support people: they will all be located wherever > it suits them. > > 2. What support to offer. The obvious choices are: > > - first-level user support ("how do I attach an image to a mail > reply?") > > - defect support ("My machine just said "panic: not enough foos" > and rebooted. What do I do?"). > > - programming support ("I've just updated my Yoyodyne frobulator > to the new, improved YYD-64. Can you write a driver for me, > please?") > > - Education. > > This is by no means an exhaustive list. > > 3. What to charge. > > 4. How to sell the concept to potential customers. > > I've copied -questions and -newbies on this message. I don't expect > many of the people on those lists to want to join in, but you could be > concerned that this might mean the end of free support on the > -questions list. I don't think you need to be worried. I suspect it > *will* change things on the list, but I don't see any reason to expect > that it will make things worse. > > I'd prefer that as much of the discussion as possible happens on > supporters@nanyang-computer.com (it's a no-obligation signup :-). If, > for some reason, you don't want to do that, please follow up in > FreeBSD-chat. > > Greg > > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 19:57:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00684 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00621 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:57:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (gyndine-108.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.88.108]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id VAA15341 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:57:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22026 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:57:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804120257.VAA22026@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:57:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Stuff To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan, Would you be good enough to e-mail me back and tell me how to get mail to you. I've made several attempts the past two days, and the mail gets returned with the error that your mailbox is blocked. I would like to discuss some things with you off line. Thanks Frank -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 20:11:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03367 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA03314 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 55644 invoked from network); 12 Apr 1998 03:11:44 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 12 Apr 1998 03:11:44 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-190.realtime.net [205.238.146.190]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA02030; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:11:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:18:23 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Greg Lehey cc: lfloyd@sonic.net, FreeBSD Chat , supporters@nanyang-computer.com Subject: Re: The issue of support In-Reply-To: <19980412094352.28153@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 9:02:10 -0700, L. Floyd wrote: > > I work for an environmental consulting firm that mainly uses PCs (Win > > 3.x and Win95) hooked to an NT server using Banyan. We have about 1,000 > > employees nationwide tied together by a WAN. The other day I was > > talking to one of the IS support people about alternative OSs. I was > > astonished (at first) to hear that our Corp IS folks would never > > consider using an operating system that is free. They feel better about > > spending money for the product, especially if it has good support. They > > are savy enough or experienced enough to figure out problems on their > > own. > > > > So, in the case of FreeBSD, "support" may invite more corporate users to > > consider using it.... perhaps. > > > > (Of course I did mention that there was massive support via the > > Internet, but that didn't fly.) > > You may have missed the announcement I sent out yesterday. I've set > up a mailing list to discuss the matter of commercial support at > supporters@nanyang-computer.com. If you want to sign up, send mail to > majordomo@nanyang-computer.com with 'subscribe supporters' in the body > of the message. > > You raise an interesting point: should a commercially supported > version of FreeBSD cost money (not much, but enough)? How about > 'FeeBSD'? > > Greg I think that $ = legitimacy in some mind sets. I had a client that paid $250/month retainer for priority attention. We *still* billed them the regular rate for service. They also paid about nine thousand dollars for comm gear so we could get into their system. They never could get the tempo of "post then purge...";-) Joking aside, they felt better about getting priority service. If the system was down they could not invoice. That meant out of business. I think the commercial support alternative is essential for any penetration in the business world. The other ingredient is the vendor. "Free" probably means "gone" to a corporation. If the core team, or volunteers on the current lists don't want to don suits and ties, then some means of certifying a "reseller" needs to exist. That does not mean that I can't sell a FreeBSD system or that my customers or I can't give it away. I just don't get the Seal of Approval. A serialized logo if you will. It works like this. I demonstrate suit wearing, pie charting, etc. (You can see my mind set... I used to do this!?) I get a seal. Corporate types feel good about paying me money for systems. I also sell service contract with your World Wide Service, Inc. What the corporation is paying for is their lifeblood. They need a face to call that night before payroll is to print or the billing needs to go out. It isn't the operating system at all. It is the person that sold it to them. They need to get to you when they need help. You as a provider have to have the means of supporting the customer. That means you have to be in business and have an income. Business customers are not stupid. They know they must give you money or you will not be there to help them when they need it. Free = not there. I think, Greg, that your suggestion is a must, in some form. OK I'm done. Happy Easter. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 20:24:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05607 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:24:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05595 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-57.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.57]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA51896 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 03:24:13 GMT Message-ID: <353033D6.E1A6EB4D@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:24:06 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 'baby food' promotion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's a new thread for you all, on the promotional front. How about a 'newbie's disk' that we package up as a giveaway? Set it up so it comes up right from the box on a generic VGA PC with XFree, Apache, PPP, Lyx or StarOffice, Mozilla and (of course) all the port tools and sources, perhaps on a second CD. All of the existing stuff would be included, but we'd make some intelligent choices for the beginner, so he could have a worry-free install to play with _before_ he/she learned to be sophisticated. As far as how to set up PPP, I know IBM.net provides Linux scripts for PPP, and there isn't much that has to be done beyond that. I know a lot of schools that can't afford software, but if we give _them_ a little donation and some personal tax-deductable support, that'll do a lot of good for the long-term health of FreeBSD. I think it's time to make FreeBSD.org a _real_ non-profit educational corporation, and start using it as a real promotional vehicle. Whatcha think? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 20:52:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09377 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA30518 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:52:19 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA19376 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:51:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rhapsody and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199804120211.TAA12568@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > We can start by killing this thread. Apple and FreeBSD topics > in an open forum topic is a No-No per Apple's representative. > > Amancio Mr. Wilfredo Sanchez (an Apple rep if not thee Apple rep mentioned above) did initially post his message in an open forum. And a message of importance such as this BEGS for discussion. I intended to do no wrong. I would be mortified if one day I discovered that the core did not read this one important message and all I had to do was make a post to -chat. We on these lists do not know who _actually_ got that message. I feel that I have been censured for doing something I could not possibly have known was unacceptable. I do fully respect Apple's request for discretion. The only question that I am really interested in is, "Did Mr. Sanchez' query go unnoticed by the core group?" The answer I am looking for is, "No. The core group did not miss Mr. Sanchez post. They did infact receive it." Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 20:59:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10166 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10158 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA15215; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:59:17 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980412135915.28293@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:59:15 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rhapsody and FreeBSD References: <199804120211.TAA12568@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 07:51:07PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 11, 1998 at 07:51:07PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > We can start by killing this thread. Apple and FreeBSD topics > > in an open forum topic is a No-No per Apple's representative. > > > > Amancio > > Mr. Wilfredo Sanchez (an Apple rep if not thee Apple rep mentioned > above) did initially post his message in an open forum. And a message > of importance such as this BEGS for discussion. I intended to do no > wrong. When you fall into the mailto: off the web page there is no indication that it is going to an open forum. IMHO this is the cause of many misunderstandings. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 21:13:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11819 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:13:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11814 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA24626; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:13:27 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA24458; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:12:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Sue Blake cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Rhapsody and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19980412135915.28293@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > When you fall into the mailto: off the web page there is no indication that > it is going to an open forum. IMHO this is the cause of many > misunderstandings. Yes. You are correct. I had previously assumed (ass-u-me) that everyone knows that -questions is a list and not a person. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 21:24:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12891 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12885 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 21:24:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (adarlon-50.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.75.178]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id EAA11945; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 04:24:38 GMT Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22223; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:24:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804120424.XAA22223@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:24:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: The issue of support To: jktheowl@bga.com cc: grog@lemis.com, lfloyd@sonic.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, supporters@nanyang-computer.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The very point that I tried to make yesterday, but here it is stated more elegantly. Frank On 11 Apr, John Kenagy wrote: > > > On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Sat, 11 April 1998 at 9:02:10 -0700, L. Floyd wrote: >> > I work for an environmental consulting firm that mainly uses PCs (Win >> > 3.x and Win95) hooked to an NT server using Banyan. We have about 1,000 >> > employees nationwide tied together by a WAN. The other day I was >> > talking to one of the IS support people about alternative OSs. I was >> > astonished (at first) to hear that our Corp IS folks would never >> > consider using an operating system that is free. They feel better about >> > spending money for the product, especially if it has good support. They >> > are savy enough or experienced enough to figure out problems on their >> > own. >> > >> > So, in the case of FreeBSD, "support" may invite more corporate users to >> > consider using it.... perhaps. >> > >> > (Of course I did mention that there was massive support via the >> > Internet, but that didn't fly.) >> >> You may have missed the announcement I sent out yesterday. I've set >> up a mailing list to discuss the matter of commercial support at >> supporters@nanyang-computer.com. If you want to sign up, send mail to >> majordomo@nanyang-computer.com with 'subscribe supporters' in the body >> of the message. >> >> You raise an interesting point: should a commercially supported >> version of FreeBSD cost money (not much, but enough)? How about >> 'FeeBSD'? >> >> Greg > > I think that $ = legitimacy in some mind sets. I had a client that paid > $250/month retainer for priority attention. We *still* billed them the > regular rate for service. They also paid about nine thousand dollars for > comm gear so we could get into their system. They never could get the > tempo of "post then purge...";-) > > Joking aside, they felt better about getting priority service. If the > system was down they could not invoice. That meant out of business. > > I think the commercial support alternative is essential for any > penetration in the business world. The other ingredient is the vendor. > "Free" probably means "gone" to a corporation. If the core team, > or volunteers on the current lists don't want to don suits and ties, > then some means of certifying a "reseller" needs to exist. > > That does not mean that I can't sell a FreeBSD system or that my > customers or I can't give it away. I just don't get the Seal of Approval. > A serialized logo if you will. > > It works like this. I demonstrate suit wearing, pie charting, etc. > (You can see my mind set... I used to do this!?) I get a seal. > Corporate types feel good about paying me money for systems. I also > sell service contract with your World Wide Service, Inc. > > What the corporation is paying for is their lifeblood. They need a > face to call that night before payroll is to print or the billing > needs to go out. It isn't the operating system at all. It is the person > that sold it to them. They need to get to you when they need help. > > You as a provider have to have the means of supporting the customer. > That means you have to be in business and have an income. Business > customers are not stupid. They know they must give you money or you > will not be there to help them when they need it. Free = not there. > > I think, Greg, that your suggestion is a must, in some form. > > OK I'm done. Happy Easter. > > John > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 22:50:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21827 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:50:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21815 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:50:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24255; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:49:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804120549.XAA24255@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:49:41 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , lfloyd@sonic.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The issue of support Cc: FreeBSD Chat , supporters@nanyang-computer.com In-Reply-To: <19980412094352.28153@freebie.lemis.com> References: <352F9402.64A0AEA5@sonic.net> <352F9402.64A0AEA5@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:43 AM 4/12/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >You raise an interesting point: should a commercially supported >version of FreeBSD cost money (not much, but enough)? How about >'FeeBSD'? Why bundle? Unbundled support is perfectly adequate, and avoids barriers to entry for individual consultants who might want to provide support without also selling a version of the OS. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 22:54:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23001 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22914 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24314; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:54:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804120554.XAA24314@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:54:09 -0600 To: "Jason C. Wells" , The Classiest Man Alive From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Freeware: The Heart & Soul of the Internet" (moved to chat) Cc: Chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:36 PM 4/11/98 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: >Yes. It is called the FreeBSD newsletter. It is online one the website. >You can view it with the linux version of acrobat. Two problems: 1. There's only one issue, and it's stale. 2. It's in a proprietary format that requires many readers to download a plug-in. (Others, such as users as some of the other *BSD's, can't even GET a plug-in and so can't read it.) There's no excuse for this in a situation where we want to support non-proprietary standards and easy migration between platforms. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message