From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 01:42:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02783 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:42:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02762; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:42:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16237; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:39:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 02:39:35 -0600 To: Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> References: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:21 AM 5/10/98 +0000, Jason Nordwick wrote: >You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is >giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or >Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all >grownup here. Well, in a sense, it's true. They DON'T want to get involved in any "Linux vs. BSD things." They want to pick the best seller, just as they did with Windows, and support it -- whether or not it is the best choice. FreeBSD has about a year to achieve near-parity with Linux or it may be in trouble because of this pattern of behavior. Think it can be done? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 01:59:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04178 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:59:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA04158 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:59:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from ragnet.demon.co.uk ([158.152.46.40]) by post.mail.demon.net id ab2008305; 10 May 98 8:55 GMT Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0yYHig-00047C-00; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:03:50 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805091749.MAA05657@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:03:49 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: David Kelly Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-May-98 David Kelly wrote: > Andrew Short writes: >> On Sat, 9 May 1998, Ben Cohen wrote: > > While you are at it, I've been wishing somebody (such as WC) would > produce the little guy in a 1.00" x 1.00" format suitable for pasting > in the indention found on all generic PC enclosures. I wish to leave no > doubt that nothing but FreeBSD is in this box. > > Even if WC only put a 1x1 Chuckie in their catalog, then I'd have one > to cut out. So I've been cutting out larger Chuckies and taping them in > place. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net I managed to use one from the catalogue at exactly 25.4mm by 25.4mm :-) Can't remember which issue but about 12 to 18months ago. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 02:15:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05167 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05151 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:15:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id CAA18837; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 02:15:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Brett Glass cc: Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 10 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >At 02:21 AM 5/10/98 +0000, Jason Nordwick wrote: > >>You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is >>giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or >>Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all >>grownup here. > >Well, in a sense, it's true. They DON'T want to get involved in any >"Linux vs. BSD things." They want to pick the best seller, just as >they did with Windows, and support it -- whether or not it is the best >choice. > >FreeBSD has about a year to achieve near-parity with Linux or it may >be in trouble because of this pattern of behavior. Think it can be done? > >--Brett > No, we will not be in trouble. We are very strong in the server/high load computing to be in trouble. Then again, I am biased. :) -- Yan P.S. I took -advacacy off now. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 03:59:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13108 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13103; Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01506; Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 02:39:35 MDT." <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:19 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The challenge is to change the sleeper type attitude on this group with respect to marketing and to get advocacy type messages out on the world . For example, we *really* need to change http://www.freebsd.org to convey a feeling of activity and success around FreeBSD. I posted a simple request for someone to volunteer to revamp the web page and got ZERO response. Why is that? Is it because the group is lazy when it comes to promoting FreeBSD , the group does not understand the importance of demonstrating the capability and success of FreeBSD, or we don't have any web developers? I sincerely believe that the answer to my question is (a) we are lazy when it comes to promoting FreeBSD. Now, if this was a Linux forum , I bet we would have had by now several dozen volunteers for the task . I believe thats the biggest difference between FreeBSD and Linux . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 04:05:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA14110 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA14097 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:05:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA01553; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805101104.EAA01553@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 02:15:12 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 04:04:50 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Technological leads are temporary . Perhaps in a year from now linux will be sufficiently strong in the server market and even if it is not so the plague of insect like fanatics will probably convince even Bill Gates to use linux. They do behave like insects or a weird virus. Amancio > On Sun, 10 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > >At 02:21 AM 5/10/98 +0000, Jason Nordwick wrote: > > > >>You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is > >>giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or > >>Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all > >>grownup here. > > > >Well, in a sense, it's true. They DON'T want to get involved in any > >"Linux vs. BSD things." They want to pick the best seller, just as > >they did with Windows, and support it -- whether or not it is the best > >choice. > > > >FreeBSD has about a year to achieve near-parity with Linux or it may > >be in trouble because of this pattern of behavior. Think it can be done? > > > >--Brett > > > No, we will not be in trouble. We are very strong in the > server/high load computing to be in trouble. Then again, I am biased. :) > > -- Yan > > P.S. I took -advacacy off now. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 04:25:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16317 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:25:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA16312 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id EAA14570; Sun, 10 May 1998 04:25:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 04:25:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Amancio Hasty cc: Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805101104.EAA01553@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You have a point. Hence we now have two views to take. 1. Linux people are our friend. We are both here for the same reason. We both love free software and we are both against MS. 2. Linux peple are not our friend. While they also hate MS, the want to replace shitty MS products with only their shitty OS. They fear competition for their weak, hacked up together OS and would like to see *BSD go away. What should we do now? We can assume #2 and take attack. We can assume number one, but if #2 is true, we WILL lose. I am paranoid. I'll go with #2... well, I have been for some time. But let us not forget that as Linux pushing into corporate markets and people get used to "free software" concept, it will also make it easy for FreeBSD to get into the corporate market. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Sun, 10 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Technological leads are temporary . Perhaps in a year from now linux >will be sufficiently strong in the server market and even if it is >not so the plague of insect like fanatics will probably convince even >Bill Gates to use linux. They do behave like insects or a weird virus. > > > Amancio > >> On Sun, 10 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >> >> >At 02:21 AM 5/10/98 +0000, Jason Nordwick wrote: >> > >> >>You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is >> >>giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or >> >>Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all >> >>grownup here. >> > >> >Well, in a sense, it's true. They DON'T want to get involved in any >> >"Linux vs. BSD things." They want to pick the best seller, just as >> >they did with Windows, and support it -- whether or not it is the best >> >choice. >> > >> >FreeBSD has about a year to achieve near-parity with Linux or it may >> >be in trouble because of this pattern of behavior. Think it can be done? >> > >> >--Brett >> > >> No, we will not be in trouble. We are very strong in the >> server/high load computing to be in trouble. Then again, I am biased. :) >> >> -- Yan >> >> P.S. I took -advacacy off now. >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 06:52:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24902 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24897 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 06:52:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id PAA18789; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:52:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:52:38 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: drifter@stratos.net Cc: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? References: <199805100118.VAA17909@stratos.net> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 10 May 1998 15:52:37 +0200 In-Reply-To: drifter@stratos.net's message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 21:18:41 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 7 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org drifter@stratos.net writes: > I didn't know you could run TCP over UUCP, though. Umm, well, you can't. But you can run UUCP over TCP :) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 10:26:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12399 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12389 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-19.cybercom.net [209.21.137.19]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15346 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805101732.NAA15346@zephyr.cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:27:20 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Security in SysAdmin magazine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This may be old news for many of you, but I came across a feature article on FreeBSD Security in SysAdmin magazine. It appeared in the May 1998 issue, which is still on the shelves in some stores in my area. You can read the article by Guy Helmer at http://www.samag.com/archive/0705/feature.html. I was impressed by the fact that it was the feature article with the name FreeBSD displayed prominently on the cover page. Incidentally, does anybody read this magazine regularly? If so, what are your opinions of it? K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 10:42:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14125 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:42:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14118 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA05293; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:42:10 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980510204210.12446@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:42:10 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805101104.EAA01553@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 04:25:50AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Jan B. Koum , were spotted writing this on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 04:25:50AM -0700: > > You have a point. Hence we now have two views to take. No, I think we are free to remember that the world isn't a black-and-white movie. > 1. Linux people are our friend. We are both here for the same reason. We > both love free software and we are both against MS. This is mostly, but not entirely, true. The next view, however, is inane: > 2. Linux peple are not our friend. While they also hate MS, the want to > replace shitty MS products with only their shitty OS. However strongly you feel about technical superiority of FreeBSD over Linux (and I do feel so strongly), calling Linux a shitty OS and equating it with MS OSes is neither wise nor smart. Linux is a good kernel; it is not 'hacked up' although is less clean and stable than FreeBSD's. Linux userland is a good and powerful collection of programs, too. Maybe you should admin some mixed NT/95 networks for living to learn the difference between MS products and Linux. > They fear > competition for their weak, hacked up together OS and would like to see > *BSD go away. This is also incredibly silly and paranoid. Linux pushers push Linux because they LOVE LINUX. Not because they hate you, jkh, Berkeley or userland ppp. Is that so hard to understand? Yes, they often exhibit characteristics of mindless groupies. Yes, they're too often less intelligent than I would like to see them. But where on Earth did you find that 'fear of competition...'? The simple fact is that nearly all Linux fans are absolutely _ignorant_ of FreeBSD and have no idea whether it's superior or inferior or even that it exists. To paraphrase an old Murphy law: "Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by ignorance." When Mr. Andresseen does his PR rant about importance of Linux, etc., he doesn't _think_ of FreeBSD. It's not in his mind as another viable and important platform for Netscape. That's probably not too good, but it's stupid to envision him, for example, planning to kill FreeBSD with his carefully planned omissions. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 10:44:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14345 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:44:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14338 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA05498; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:44:12 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980510204411.25967@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:44:11 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805101104.EAA01553@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199805101104.EAA01553@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 04:04:50AM -0700 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Amancio Hasty, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 04:04:50AM -0700: > Technological leads are temporary . Perhaps in a year from now linux > will be sufficiently strong in the server market and even if it is > not so the plague of insect like fanatics will probably convince even > Bill Gates to use linux. They do behave like insects or a weird virus. Interesting. One one hand, you suggest FreeBSD supporters are lazy and that they should go out and advertise, shout about, promote FreeBSD much more. On the other hand, people who _are_ doing that for Linux are insects and subjects of a weird virus. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 11:28:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18605 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02818; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:28:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805101828.LAA02818@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Anatoly Vorobey cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 20:44:11 +0300." <19980510204411.25967@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:28:31 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, the current propaganda of linux is both helpful and damaging. What I am trying to point out and is that mindless propaganda or insect-like reaction in the face of reason can back-fire on the group and if you browse over at : http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 You will see that some on the linux fanatics drop their blind propaganda when met with reason. I still stand behind my statement : FreeBSD supporters by enlarge are laze when it comes to promoting FreeBSD. My feeling is that we are *too* comfortable in our mailing lists and just hate to leave our cozy environ. Amancio > You, Amancio Hasty, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 04:04:50AM -0700: > > Technological leads are temporary . Perhaps in a year from now linux > > will be sufficiently strong in the server market and even if it is > > not so the plague of insect like fanatics will probably convince even > > Bill Gates to use linux. They do behave like insects or a weird virus. > > Interesting. One one hand, you suggest FreeBSD supporters are lazy and > that they should go out and advertise, shout about, promote FreeBSD > much more. On the other hand, people who _are_ doing that for Linux are > insects and subjects of a weird virus. > > > -- > Anatoly Vorobey, > mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ > "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 11:33:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19190 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (root@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19181 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.9]) by duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14031; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:33:24 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:33:23 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon X-Sender: cdillon@duey.hs.wolves.k12.mo.us To: David Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: where to buy Happy Hacking keyboard in US? In-Reply-To: <199805091749.MAA05657@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 9 May 1998, David Kelly wrote: > > > How about a FreeBSD daemon? > > > > I'm sold! I'll have to whip out the high-res on this printer and see how > > small I can make him and still look good. > > While you are at it, I've been wishing somebody (such as WC) would > produce the little guy in a 1.00" x 1.00" format suitable for pasting > in the indention found on all generic PC enclosures. I wish to leave no > doubt that nothing but FreeBSD is in this box. Aaah, very good idea. I have a couple of boxes here that I wouldn't mind filling in that empty hole. Maybe WC could even make replacement keycaps for the popular keyboards to replace the Winkeys. I have an M$ Natural keyboard here at home (ok, i'm gonna give them a _little_ credit for a pretty good keyboard) that I wouldn't mind defacing. :-) -- Chris Dillon --- cdillon@inter-linc.net --- cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us /* FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and compatibles (SPARC and Alpha under development) (http://www.freebsd.org) */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 11:39:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19949 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19938 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id LAA19566; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:39:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: www@freebsdd.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Security in SysAdmin magazine In-Reply-To: <199805101732.NAA15346@zephyr.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It is an old news. However, they did change the URL since the now have a newer issue. I think we need to edit http://www.freebsd.org/press.html because right now it point to the new month which talks about /proc fs under Solaris 2.5 (hence I am adding www@freebsd.org on cc:) I paid for a year subscription right before I learned that FreeBSD article is getting published also. I find it a very nice, technical magazine. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Sun, 10 May 1998, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: >This may be old news for many of you, but I came across a feature article >on FreeBSD Security in SysAdmin magazine. It appeared in the May 1998 >issue, which is still on the shelves in some stores in my area. You can >read the article by Guy Helmer at >http://www.samag.com/archive/0705/feature.html. I was impressed by the >fact that it was the feature article with the name FreeBSD displayed >prominently on the cover page. > >Incidentally, does anybody read this magazine regularly? If so, what are >your opinions of it? > >K.S. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 12:07:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24452 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:07:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24441 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00362; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:06:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199805101906.OAA00362@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <19980510204411.25967@techunix.technion.ac.il> from Anatoly Vorobey at "May 10, 98 08:44:11 pm" To: mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:06:55 -0500 (EST) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You, Amancio Hasty, were spotted writing this on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 04:04:50AM -0700: > > Technological leads are temporary . Perhaps in a year from now linux > > will be sufficiently strong in the server market and even if it is > > not so the plague of insect like fanatics will probably convince even > > Bill Gates to use linux. They do behave like insects or a weird virus. > > Interesting. One one hand, you suggest FreeBSD supporters are lazy and > that they should go out and advertise, shout about, promote FreeBSD > much more. On the other hand, people who _are_ doing that for Linux are > insects and subjects of a weird virus. > (This is MY opinion and not that of -core.) The frustrating "fact" is that most people using FreeBSD are really using or enhancing it, rather than being advocates. We need more advocates, but that culture needs to be slowly developed. I am frustrated that I cannot participate more in advocacy right now, because I am busy making FreeBSD better (both at work and at home.) It is probably a good idea to support the notion that when a FreeBSD developer doesn't want to "program" or "create", they can "advocate" in their spare time. However, I suspect that most FreeBSD developers have lives outside of FreeBSD and would rather spend their time in areas other than advocacy. It is a difficult problem to solve, and I don't think that we can just try to stay "above it all", but will have to get down 'n dirty also. Advocacy takes lots of energy, and those who have such energy to advocate *BSD should be applauded. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 12:08:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24877 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24866 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:08:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA07622; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:08:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:08:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Security in SysAdmin magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 10 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > It is an old news. However, they did change the URL since the now > have a newer issue. I think we need to edit > http://www.freebsd.org/press.html because right now it point to the new > month which talks about /proc fs under Solaris 2.5 (hence I am adding > www@freebsd.org on cc:) Sounds good, but you misspelled FreeBSD in your Cc: header. :-) Ted Stein http://www.taki.net CGI/Backend ted@taki.net taki solutions Web Design & Hosting "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 12:58:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03149 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:58:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02953 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:57:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id MAA29282; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:57:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Ted Stein cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Security in SysAdmin magazine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know. I noticed it right after the mail went out. I re-sent it to them.. or us since I am on -www also, just don't have commit access. :) -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Sun, 10 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: >On Sun, 10 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > >> >> It is an old news. However, they did change the URL since the now >> have a newer issue. I think we need to edit >> http://www.freebsd.org/press.html because right now it point to the new >> month which talks about /proc fs under Solaris 2.5 (hence I am adding >> www@freebsd.org on cc:) > > Sounds good, but you misspelled FreeBSD in your Cc: header. :-) > > Ted Stein http://www.taki.net > CGI/Backend ted@taki.net > taki solutions Web Design & Hosting > > "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 14:05:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11019 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11006 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22831; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:05:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805102105.PAA22831@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:24:53 -0600 To: "Jan B. Koum " , Amancio Hasty From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199805101104.EAA01553@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:25 AM 5/10/98 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > You have a point. Hence we now have two views to take. > >1. Linux people are our friend. We are both here for the same reason. We >both love free software and we are both against MS. >2. Linux peple are not our friend. While they also hate MS, the want to >replace shitty MS products with only their shitty OS. They fear >competition for their weak, hacked up together OS and would like to see >*BSD go away. > > What should we do now? We can assume #2 and take attack. We can >assume number one, but if #2 is true, we WILL lose. Why do you assume that? Unless you define "lose" as Bill Gates does -- that is, less than 100% market share -- FreeBSD has a lot to gain. But only if it's promoted well. It pains me to see FreeBSD as a "sleeper" product when it's so much more stable and reliable than most Linux systems I've encountered. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 14:41:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15029 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:41:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15005 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di16hh.bonline.net (di16hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.144]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id ja309123 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:40:07 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:40:58 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, mellon@pobox.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I still stand behind my statement : FreeBSD supporters by enlarge are > laze when it comes to promoting FreeBSD. My feeling is that we are > *too* comfortable in our mailing lists and just hate to leave our > cozy environ. > > Amancio I agree. I was just busy analysing the German FreeBSD market particularly comparing with the Linux efforts. Four things are quite obvious: I. Linux is quite successful due to commercial advertisement for the many Linux and Linux-related products. II. FreeBSD is getting notably more into commercial focus. Also people discontented with Linux or MS products are asking for information about FreeBSD and brothers. III. Either commercial as well as private users of FreeBSD are not sufficiently attracted by the currently available support media. Currently a book on FreeBSD is being written because the publisher house was asked for it by interested users. (Hellmuth Michaelis and me will probably be co-authors.) IV. There are already some (obviously fairly satisfied and convinced) commercial supporters of FreeBSD, which do not communicate over the FreeBSD mailing lists. The capacity is insufficient though. What the product FreeBSD would need is: I. Advertisement. In particular advertisement by commercial suppliers and supporters. It's much more persuading (and that's what's needed) to say "I rely on selling FreeBSD" than on "I rely on the product FreBSD". In Germany Suse and Delix realise the most efficient Linux promotion. FreeBSD needs the same. (I actually considered to found something like "Fuse".) II. The support for FreeBSD needs an organisational frame with name. "FreeBSD Competence Centres" or "FreeBSD Solution Providers" were very helpful (for the product :). I could imagine to (try to) coordinate the efforts of "non-volunteer" supporters for FreeBSD in Germany. FreeBSD has a good chance to become the reference of choice for many products if it will have a solid economical base. I recently read on the BriggAcct home page something like "Especially for Linux is no support available due to the many different Linux distributions." Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 15:35:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20816 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20810 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:35:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23782; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:35:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805102235.QAA23782@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 16:35:21 -0600 To: kuehl@lgk.de, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, mellon@pobox.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:40 PM 5/10/98 +0200, Lars Gerhard Kuehl wrote: >What the product FreeBSD would need is: > > I. Advertisement. In particular advertisement by commercial > suppliers and supporters. It's much more persuading (and that's > what's needed) to say "I rely on selling FreeBSD" than on > "I rely on the product FreBSD". In Germany Suse and Delix > realise the most efficient Linux promotion. FreeBSD needs > the same. (I actually considered to found something like > "Fuse".) > > II. The support for FreeBSD needs an organisational frame with name. > "FreeBSD Competence Centres" or "FreeBSD Solution Providers" > were very helpful (for the product :). This takes money. Right now, Walnut Creek is the only seller of FreeBSD disks and hence the only profit-making venture from which much money could come. So, this begs the questions: Would Walnut Creek be willing to sell CD-ROMs in bulk to a second vendor which might plow money back into advertising? Or -- how much would it "rock the boat" if another vendor began pressing CDs? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 16:26:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26202 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:26:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhub.ainet.com (mailhub.ainet.com [204.30.40.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26192 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:26:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmscott@ainet.com) Received: from ainet.com (jmscott@ainet.com [204.30.40.6]) by mailhub.ainet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10202; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmscott@ainet.com) Received: by ainet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13062; Sun, 10 May 98 16:26:28 PDT Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 16:26:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joseph M. Scott" To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805102235.QAA23782@lariat.lariat.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Comments done below : On Sun, 10 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:40 PM 5/10/98 +0200, Lars Gerhard Kuehl wrote: > > >What the product FreeBSD would need is: > > > > I. Advertisement. In particular advertisement by commercial > > suppliers and supporters. It's much more persuading (and that's > > what's needed) to say "I rely on selling FreeBSD" than on > > "I rely on the product FreBSD". In Germany Suse and Delix > > realise the most efficient Linux promotion. FreeBSD needs > > the same. (I actually considered to found something like > > "Fuse".) > > > > II. The support for FreeBSD needs an organisational frame with name. > > "FreeBSD Competence Centres" or "FreeBSD Solution Providers" > > were very helpful (for the product :). > > This takes money. Right now, Walnut Creek is the only seller of FreeBSD > disks and hence the only profit-making venture from which much money > could come. Actually my understanding is that there is another company selling FreeBSD cds, Cheap Bytes I believe is what it's called. I personally have never compared the two, but I as I understand it they are basically a more stripped down set compared to Walnut Creek's set. I don't know for sure, but I do recall a discussion about it at one time, either in the newsgroups ( comp.os.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc if I recall correctly ) or on one or more of the freebsd lists. > > So, this begs the questions: Would Walnut Creek be willing to sell > CD-ROMs in bulk to a second vendor which might plow money back into > advertising? Or -- how much would it "rock the boat" if another > vendor began pressing CDs? > > --Brett > This is a little different than what I understand is happening with Cheap Bytes, they are putting together their own distribution I believe. I would not claim to know details as to what's going on, I'm sure there are others with a better understanding of what that relationship looks like. Lately I've been considering a couple of things, I work for a small ISP in CA and have been looking at approaching our company to make some sort of donation ( hopefully each year ? ) to the FreeBSD project to help things along. Like I said it's rather small compared to many but we've decided ( awhile back ) to go with FreeBSD as the primary workhorse for our servers ( I can't wait to put a knife in an old SunOS box we have :-) After the power is turned off of course ). This idea sparked another one the other day, ISP con is coming up in San Jose in late September I believe, does FreeBSD or Walnut Creek have any plans to do anything at the show? I don't really want to start a war over ISPs using Linux and ISPs using FreeBSD, but I would thing that would be a neat place to push the FreeBSD cause. I suppose the key thing that Brett and others have hit on is that there needs to be a company who is willing to start making the push ( or at least some or group who has the money ) and get the advertising going. I would like to see Walnut Creek do this, but if for some reason they can't or don't want to at this point then the search needs to start, we need to find or create this company that can begin this push for FreeBSD. Joseph Scott jmscott@ainet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 16:45:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28271 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28262 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:45:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-224.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.224]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA17902 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:45:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA19025 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:44:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805102344.SAA19025@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Dayton HamVention From: David Kelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:44:24 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Any FreeBSD'ers going to Dayton this coming weekend? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 17:36:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05488 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05472 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA14255; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:35:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: "Joseph M. Scott" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 10 May 1998, Joseph M. Scott wrote: > > Actually my understanding is that there is another company > selling FreeBSD cds, Cheap Bytes I believe is what it's called. I > personally have never compared the two, but I as I understand it they are > basically a more stripped down set compared to Walnut Creek's set. I > don't know for sure, but I do recall a discussion about it at one time, > either in the newsgroups ( comp.os.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc if I recall > correctly ) or on one or more of the freebsd lists. > That is correct. Cheap*Bytes does sell FreeBSD CDs. > > This is a little different than what I understand is happening > with Cheap Bytes, they are putting together their own distribution I > believe. I would not claim to know details as to what's going on, I'm > sure there are others with a better understanding of what that > relationship looks like. > That is semi-correct. Cheap*Bytes does cell a $2 CD with the latest -release on it. I doubt that they make their own distribution. They also sell what Walnut Creek does, for about $20 less (in reference to the 4 CDs and Greg's book). Ted Stein http://www.taki.net CGI/Backend ted@taki.net taki solutions Web Design & Hosting "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 17:38:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05845 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:38:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05826 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:38:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00905; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:38:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199805110038.TAA00905@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Dayton HamVention In-Reply-To: <199805102344.SAA19025@nospam.hiwaay.net> from David Kelly at "May 10, 98 06:44:24 pm" To: dkelly@HiWAAY.net (David Kelly) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:38:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Any FreeBSD'ers going to Dayton this coming weekend? > Thanks for reminding me... I might end up going (it is only a 1.5Hr drive from here.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 18:15:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10686 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:15:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10657 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:15:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id VAA08825; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:15:15 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA25198; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:15:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: Ted Stein cc: "Joseph M. Scott" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 10 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > That is semi-correct. Cheap*Bytes does cell a $2 CD with the > latest -release on it. I doubt that they make their own distribution. They > also sell what Walnut Creek does, for about $20 less (in reference to the > 4 CDs and Greg's book). I believe that the Cheap Bytes CD's don't have an El Torito boot sector on them either. It's not EVEN a big deal with the Linux Distro's (none that I know are bootable from CD anyway), but with FreeBSD, it's enough of a difference that I am getting the book and all 4 CD's. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 18:40:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13594 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13553 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt3-87.HiWAAY.net [208.147.146.87]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17903; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:40:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA19633; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:40:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805110140.UAA19633@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "John S. Dyson" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Dayton HamVention In-reply-to: Message from "John S. Dyson" of "Sun, 10 May 1998 19:38:08 CDT." <199805110038.TAA00905@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:40:04 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "John S. Dyson" writes: > > > > Any FreeBSD'ers going to Dayton this coming weekend? > > > Thanks for reminding me... I might end up going (it is only a 1.5Hr drive > from here.) The unsaid implied question was, "any FreeBSD gathering/activities at Dayton?" -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 10 18:56:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16470 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:56:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16454 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:56:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id LAA04478 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:56:24 +1000 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:56:22 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 10 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > On Sun, 10 May 1998, Joseph M. Scott wrote: > > > > > Actually my understanding is that there is another company > > selling FreeBSD cds, Cheap Bytes I believe is what it's called. I > > personally have never compared the two, but I as I understand it they are > > basically a more stripped down set compared to Walnut Creek's set. I > > don't know for sure, but I do recall a discussion about it at one time, > > either in the newsgroups ( comp.os.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc if I recall > > correctly ) or on one or more of the freebsd lists. > > > > That is correct. Cheap*Bytes does sell FreeBSD CDs. > > > > > This is a little different than what I understand is happening > > with Cheap Bytes, they are putting together their own distribution I > > believe. I would not claim to know details as to what's going on, I'm > > sure there are others with a better understanding of what that > > relationship looks like. > > > > That is semi-correct. Cheap*Bytes does cell a $2 CD with the > latest -release on it. I doubt that they make their own distribution. They > also sell what Walnut Creek does, for about $20 less (in reference to the > 4 CDs and Greg's book). > [snip] While we're on the subject of freebsd cd sellers, is anyone aware of a distributor outside the US that sells one with eBones and non-ear restricted crypto? I kinda feel a pinch of guilt when it blares at me "des[ ] NOT FOR EXPORT" at install. :) But only a *pinch*. ;) Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 01:11:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01716 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.122.116.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA01699 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di24hh.bonline.net (di24hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.152]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id fa309431 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:11:09 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805102235.QAA23782@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:12:37 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mellon@pobox.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-May-98 Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:40 PM 5/10/98 +0200, Lars Gerhard Kuehl wrote: > >>What the product FreeBSD would need is: >> >> I. Advertisement. In particular advertisement by commercial >> suppliers and supporters. It's much more persuading (and that's >> what's needed) to say "I rely on selling FreeBSD" than on >> "I rely on the product FreBSD". In Germany Suse and Delix >> realise the most efficient Linux promotion. FreeBSD needs >> the same. (I actually considered to found something like >> "Fuse".) >> >> II. The support for FreeBSD needs an organisational frame with name. >> "FreeBSD Competence Centres" or "FreeBSD Solution Providers" >> were very helpful (for the product :). > > This takes money. Right now, Walnut Creek is the only seller of FreeBSD > disks and hence the only profit-making venture from which much money > could come. > > So, this begs the questions: Would Walnut Creek be willing to sell > CD-ROMs in bulk to a second vendor which might plow money back into > advertising? Or -- how much would it "rock the boat" if another > vendor began pressing CDs? That depends on its contents. A CD-ROM with unbundled, non-free software plus installation support and an option for (paid) consultation couldn't hurt WC and would please the customer. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 13:10:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:10:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.inw.net (ns.inw.net [206.28.240.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12503 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mcneills@inw.net) Received: from mcneills (keppp13.inw.net [207.2.103.82]) by ns.inw.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA26025 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:09:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mcneills (VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:11:45 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01bd7d18$e2850f20$0200a8c0@Dell> Reply-To: "Dennis Reiter" From: "Dennis Reiter" To: Subject: Strange Apple Rumours Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:10:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.2038.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2039.0 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.2.5 Unregistered Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From InfoWorld this morning: (Robert X. Cringley) Strange rumors ============== Steve Jobs is rumored to be announcing this week at Apple's developer conference that the Mac look-and-feel is being ported to Linux, which has many GUIs floating out there currently, though none are of the Mac caliber. When asked by Cringe, Jobs sent back a quick e-mail saying, "This strange rumor has no truth in it." But sources were adamant Jobs would have some Linux announcement at the show. Regards, Denny Reiter denny@kewanee.net ICQ # 823496 ------------------------------------------ FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 13:37:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16053 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07877; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:37:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805112037.OAA07877@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:37:11 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Corel: Time for some advocacy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, Corel is making a big to-do about porting its software to Linux. If it does so without at least giving lip service to FreeBSD, you'll see a big tilt in the free software world away from the *BSDs in general. Time to call Michael Cowpland, the CEO, and start asking for a FreeBSD port! Here's the latest article I've seen on Corel's plans. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21986,00.html --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 13:43:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16725 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:43:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16714 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:43:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07954; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:43:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805112043.OAA07954@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:43:49 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Two more links to Corel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here are more links to documents on the Corel site indicating that Corel is giving Linux preferred treatment relative to other "open source" operating systems: http://www.corelcomputer.com/products/linux_faq.htm http://www.corelcomputer.com/products/announcement.htm Again, it appears that they're drawing figures from Red Hat. This reinforces the notion that Red Hat's reinvestment of Linux revenues has been a major force behind, and investor in, the propagation of Linux. Where's Walnut Creek? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 14:41:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26077 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:41:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26071 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:41:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06827; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805112141.OAA06827@rah.star-gate.com> To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: Two more links to Corel In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 May 1998 14:43:49 MDT." <199805112043.OAA07954@lariat.lariat.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6824.894922864.1@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:41:04 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What a wonderful week to start asking software houses to port their packages to FreeBSD! Tnks! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 14:44:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26811 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:44:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26719 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:44:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21444; Mon, 11 May 1998 17:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:44:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: Dennis Reiter cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Strange Apple Rumours In-Reply-To: <000f01bd7d18$e2850f20$0200a8c0@Dell> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Take a look at www.macosrumors.com for a blow by blow of everything that goes on at Apple's WWDC. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 15:24:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04986 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04855 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:24:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA25857; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:42 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980512082338.49700@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Paul Griffith Cc: Dennis Reiter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Strange Apple Rumours References: <000f01bd7d18$e2850f20$0200a8c0@Dell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:44:28PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:44:28PM -0400, Paul Griffith wrote: > > > Take a look at www.macosrumors.com for a blow by blow of everything that > goes on at Apple's WWDC. That site is well known to contain deliberate misinformation. Its purpose is to entertain at the expense of the gullible, rather than to inform. They do throw a few verifiable statements in occasionally to keep the gullible gullible. If there were a good way to identify the true parts, from those which sound true, they would have failed to meet their objectives. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 16:31:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17311 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 16:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id TAA18807; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:30:46 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mariner.cris.com (mariner.concentric.net [206.173.119.83]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id TAA28605; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:30:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@mariner.cris.com To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Two more links to Corel In-Reply-To: <199805112043.OAA07954@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 11 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > Again, it appears that they're drawing figures from Red Hat. This > reinforces the notion that Red Hat's reinvestment of Linux revenues has > been a major force behind, and investor in, the propagation of Linux. > > Where's Walnut Creek? Selling copies of the RedHat, Slackware, and TurboLinux distributions, apparently. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 18:23:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02795 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:23:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02788; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17898; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:23:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:23:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG cc: mtr@eclipse.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Those who watch the -chat mailing list will notice all the messages back and forth about so-and-so supporting Linux and not FreeBSD. The most prominent, that I've seen, is Netscape. As a large portion of the world knows, Netscape's "Engineering Pit" has the bus sign connected to the SGI. I'm not usually into this method of action, but if we bug them enough.. Send messages along the lines of "Give FreeBSD a chance", or whatever your heart desires.. Another thing I wanted to bring up without another post is something I saw in a post last week. In comparison of FreeBSD and Linux, I saw something like "We are both anti-Microsoft". I'd personally have to disagree there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am certainly not against Microsoft. Above all, it does not further our efforts, as FreeBSD fans/advocates, to insult another OS, the most popular, nonetheless. Do us all a favor, focus on FreeBSD. We want to push FreeBSD because we LOVE FreeBSD, not because we HATE Microsoft. Leave them out of it. Ted Stein http://www.taki.net CGI/Backend ted@taki.net taki solutions Web Design & Hosting "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 18:25:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03139 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:25:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03130; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17944; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:25:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:25:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG cc: mtr@eclipse.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Oops.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In my mindlessness, I left out the URL for Netscape's bus sign. http://people.netscape.com/mtoy/sign/index.html Ted Stein http://www.taki.net CGI/Backend ted@taki.net taki solutions Web Design & Hosting "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 19:26:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11081 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11063 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:26:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-122.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.122]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04382; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA24094; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:26:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805120226.VAA24094@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Strange Apple Rumours In-reply-to: Message from Sue Blake of "Tue, 12 May 1998 08:23:38 +1000." <19980512082338.49700@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:26:02 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake writes: > On Mon, May 11, 1998 at 05:44:28PM -0400, Paul Griffith wrote: > > > > > > Take a look at www.macosrumors.com for a blow by blow of everything that > > goes on at Apple's WWDC. > > That site is well known to contain deliberate misinformation. Its purpose > is to entertain at the expense of the gullible, rather than to inform. > They do throw a few verifiable statements in occasionally to keep the > gullible gullible. If there were a good way to identify the true parts, > from those which sound true, they would have failed to meet their objectives. Yeah, macosrumors hinted at a $1k G3 PowerBook and all we got was a $1295 G3 iMac. :-( THATS WHAT WE NEED TO DO! Lets start a www.freebsdrumors.com site! Or maybe a bsdrumors site and we can pretend all the *BSD's are fighting. Or SGI is about to drop Irix for BSD. Or a linuxrumors site and we can portray all the linux distributions as fighting. And just about to be bought out by Microsoft. NT 6.0 is going to be Yet Another Linux Distribution with Mozilla as the GUI. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 11 20:47:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22270 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22256 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kfurge@worldnet.att.net) From: kfurge@worldnet.att.net Received: from phaser.indy.net ([12.66.65.83]) by mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA3283; Tue, 12 May 1998 03:46:25 +0000 Received: from localhost (kfurge@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phaser.indy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA23174; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:32:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:32:21 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: kfurge@kcfhome.my.domain To: David Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dayton HamVention In-Reply-To: <199805102344.SAA19025@nospam.hiwaay.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wouldn't miss it for the world! - K.C. N9FKC On Sun, 10 May 1998, David Kelly wrote: > Any FreeBSD'ers going to Dayton this coming weekend? > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 00:18:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19525 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:18:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19446; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17138; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:17:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:17:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Konrad Heuer To: Ted Stein cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, mtr@eclipse.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 11 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > saw something like "We are both anti-Microsoft". I'd personally have to > disagree there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am certainly not > against Microsoft. Above all, it does not further our efforts, as FreeBSD > fans/advocates, to insult another OS, the most popular, nonetheless. Do us > all a favor, focus on FreeBSD. We want to push FreeBSD because we LOVE > FreeBSD, not because we HATE Microsoft. Leave them out of it. I agree. Konrad Heuer // Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH // Goettingen (GWDG), Am Fassberg, D-37077 Goettingen, Germany // // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 01:20:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26370 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26360 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA20473; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805120818.BAA20473@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Two more links to Corel In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 May 1998 14:43:49 MDT." <199805112043.OAA07954@lariat.lariat.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:18:12 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Where's Walnut Creek? Very much with us. Most of what they do for us isn't very visible, but it is essential nonetheless. More money needs to go into advertising, I think, and this will happen eventually... -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 01:47:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29464 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29452 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di05hh.bonline.net (di05hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.133]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id ba311637 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:46:23 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:47:50 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Konrad Heuer Subject: Re: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mtr@eclipse.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Ted Stein Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-May-98 Konrad Heuer wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > >> saw something like "We are both anti-Microsoft". I'd personally have to >> disagree there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am certainly not >> against Microsoft. Above all, it does not further our efforts, as FreeBSD >> fans/advocates, to insult another OS, the most popular, nonetheless. Do us >> all a favor, focus on FreeBSD. We want to push FreeBSD because we LOVE >> FreeBSD, not because we HATE Microsoft. Leave them out of it. > > I agree. I do not. Forget to LOVE as well as to HATE - at least in this context. All these terms advertise FreeBSD as sandpit and its developers and supporters as lovely, playing children. Linux, much better described by that terms, has past that stage. For that reason it has got a market which must be aimed at. To be adult means not to be only fascinated by fire but to be able to manage it. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 02:36:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA04508 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA04503 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA27764; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:38:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980512113848.48150@cons.org> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:38:48 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Brett Glass , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Ben Cohen , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PicoBSD References: <"Jason <199805082217.QAA25075@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805082217.QAA25075@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 04:09:12PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <199805082217.QAA25075@lariat.lariat.org>, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:14 PM 5/8/98 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > >To quote the PicoBSD page (), > >PicoBSD is a one-floppy version of FreeBSD 3.0-current, which in its > >different variations allows you to have secure dialup access, small > >diskless router or even a dial-in server. And all this on only one > >standard 1.44MB floppy - no need to sacrifice over 100MB of your > >precious HDD space. > > I noticed that it didn't use gzipped binaries. Why? A gzipped binary needs to be uncompressed completely before it can be executed. And it needs its own virtual memory pages (for all the binary, not only the parts that are actually executed), as compared to a normal binary which is backed up the text pages of the binary on the filesystem and reads only those pages that contain instructions you actually call. In a word, you need much more RAM (each running binary needs space for both its compressed and uncompress version) and delay starting the binary more than one would expect. You should take into account that this doesn't take space on the floppy in the case of PicoBSD. PicoBSD doesn't use the floppy as root filesystem, but has a filesystem image inside the kernel which is compressed along with most of the kernel by kzip. It is then decompressed (the whole filesystem) into a memory filesystem. Personally, I use one-floppy FreeBSD systems with the root filesystem on the floppy, and therefore compress some binaries i.e. those that are executed only once at startup or are for emergency only. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 02:51:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:51:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA06454 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:51:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA28014; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:53:33 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980512115332.62287@cons.org> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:53:32 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? References: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net>; from drifter@stratos.net on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 05:55:15PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net>, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > So, is UUCP a dying art? Is it that some places just don't have > access to the Internet or an Ethernet, but they can arrange for UUCP? > Or is there some advantage to UUCP that I am not aware about? In fact, the copy of your mail I read was tranferred by uucp (over tcp). Mail batching is easier and more flexible if you use uucp. The sendmail queue trick works only if the target machine isn't reachable. My mail-reading machine is reachable, but every single connect costs 12 Pfennig (Germany...), so I batch manually, while a "real" tcp sendmail would contact my machine verytime a mail @freebsd.org arrives. Also, I can easily compress mails, which is a great thing for German users who pay on a per-megabyte count. Not that it speeds up much for small mails, but it is cheaper. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 05:15:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA22173 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:15:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA22117 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:15:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) Received: from brunos-sun.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.185]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5/S-4.0) with SMTP; id NAA06286; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:14:31 +0100 (BST) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:14:31 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199805121214.NAA06286@hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Received: locally by brunos-sun (SMI-8.6/QMW-client-3.2b); poster "scott"; id NAA00720; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:10:09 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Corel: Time for some advocacy In-Reply-To: <199805112037.OAA07877@lariat.lariat.org> References: <199805112037.OAA07877@lariat.lariat.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.22 under 19.15 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: >Well, Corel is making a big to-do about porting its software to Linux. If >it does so without at least giving lip service to FreeBSD, you'll see a big >tilt in the free software world away from the *BSDs in general. Time to >call Michael Cowpland, the CEO, and start asking for a FreeBSD port! Here's >the latest article I've seen on Corel's plans. > >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,21986,00.html > >--Brett Glass Corel's announcement of the WordPerfect Linux port is at: http://www.corel.com/news/1998/may/linux.htm I sent a message to their 'product feedback' section asking about support for the various *BSDs; perhaps someone more officially connected with the project could contact their press people and at least let them know that we exist. Scott. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 05:34:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24552 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:34:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24543 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id OAA01131; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:30:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16007; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:41:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980512134149.A13697@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:41:49 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 2.2.6 ... 2.2.7 ... ???, features ??? (was Re: Linux as a Mozilla...) References: <19980510204411.25967@techunix.technion.ac.il> <199805101906.OAA00362@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805101906.OAA00362@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 02:06:55PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 10, 1998 at 02:06:55PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > but that culture needs to be slowly developed. I am frustrated that I > cannot participate more in advocacy right now, because I am busy making > FreeBSD better (both at work and at home.) Which reminds me, that I wanted to write an article about 2.2.6 ;-) BTW, could someone please review our release notes ? Mybe some important things are missing. I'll try to extract the most important points from it for an article. People most often don't want to see the gory details but something like "milestones". My last article was: C't 06/97, S. 276-278, Vom PC zur Workstation, Vorstellung FreeBSD 2.2.1 from pc to workstation, presentation of FreeBSD 2.2.1 ===================== 2.2.1 -> 2.2.2 ===================== A number of bugs in the Adaptec 294x/394x (AHC) driver were fixed which could cause instability on heavily loaded systems. NFSv3 is now the default, with fall-back to NFSv2 occuring as necessary. An lchown() system call has been added for changing the ownership of symlinks. Login classes added for setting default user limits (see login. conf(5)). ftpd now supports virtual FTP hosting. Numerous security fixes (buffer overflows and other potential exploits fixed). Better build support for C++ libraries added. Support for the GLOBAL text/HTML source tag system added (man global). /etc/sysconfig now replaced by /etc/rc.conf - a more concise customization file with more knobs added. Other things in /etc were also neatened up, /etc/netstart being replaced with /etc/rc.network User-mode ppp updated with various fixes and enhancements from 3.0-current. Texinfo documentation mechanisms cleaned up in source tree. ===================== 2.2.2 -> 2.2.5 ===================== Better support for Cyrix and AMD processors. The "world" target in /usr/src/Makefile has been made more independent of the host system, allowing for easier bootstrapping via source from very old systems. Many many fixes to the documentation. Many security enhancements, as reported through CERT and other computer security organizations. The installation program was further updated and fixed, some year-old bogons finally eliminated for 2.2.5. Important subsystems such as BIND and sendmail updated. Support for ethernet media selection. Replacing the far more arcane "link" flag usage, a new media flag to ifconfig permits specific interfaces on multi-port ethernet cards to be selected by name (man ifconfig for more details). Significant improvements to the AHC (Adaptec 394x/294X) driver and AIC7xxx assembler. Enhancements to the serial boot code and GDB remote support. Make work-around available for CMD640 chipset (see /sys/i386/conf/LINT). Newer 3Com 3c589D PCMCIA cards are now supported. A new VGA library (/usr/src/lib/libvgl) now exists for doing simple VGA graphics to syscons ttys (sort of like Linux's libSVGA). The TCP connection timeout in lpd & friends can now be specified by a printcap(5) capability, preventing it from hanging for too long when working in an environment with many network printservers. User-mode ppp updated with various fixes and enhancements from 3.0-current. It's worth re-reading the manual page since some of the following changes may disturb peoples current configurations: o The "set debug" command is now "set log". o The LCP log has been split into an LCP, IPCP and CCP log, so any "set log LCP" lines will need to be changed to "set log LCP IPCP CCP" to see the same output as before. o Ppp now uses syslogd to write its log files. o Ppp now has LQR disabled and openmode active by default. o Ppp now installs as group "network", with mode 4550. You must add group 69 (network) to /etc/group. If you wish to allow users to run "ppp -direct ...", you must enable them by making them a member of group "network". Client-side ppp now requires user id 0. Refer to the ppp(8) man page and the relevent section of the handbook for full details. ===================== 2.2.5 -> 2.2.6 ===================== Kernel features: o Added support for SMC EtherPower II 10/100 Fast Ethernet card (aka SMC9432TX based on SMC83c170 EPIC chip). o Added support for DPT SCSI RAID controllers (see LINT). o New Plug and Play (PnP) support that allows you to (re)configure PnP devices. Also support modems being detected by the PnP part and automatically attached. o Alternate sound driver (/sys/i386/isa/snd) from Luigi Rizzo; it does not yet support MIDI (for that, use the old sound driver) but it does have much better support for PNP sound cards and is much easier to configure (only one device). See /sys/i386/conf/LINT for more info. o Better Linux emulation (applications like RealVideo 5.0 for Linux now work). o Added support for ATAPI floppy drives (LS-120) o The psm, mse and sysmouse drivers are improved to provide better mouse support. moused(8) has been modified to support various mice with a ``wheel''. It also automatically recognizes mice which support the PnP COM device standard so that the user is no longer required to supply a mouse protocol type on the command line. Userland features: o popen() library call now uses and offers bidirectional pipes. o Added support for parallel makes in /usr/src (-j n works now with world target, particularly useful with SMP machines). o tcpdump(1) utility enhanced o Support for ldconfig -R (remove) added. o Various bugfixes and enhancements to pthread support. o calendar(1) program brought more up-to-date. o KerberosIV updated to latest version. o Various curses(3) bugs fixed. o Various IEEE754 conformance changes to libm(3). o Much cleanup and general improvements to the documentation. o Various improvements to the NIS code. Security issues: o Fixed /dev/io and mmap security holes. o Better protection against "LAND attacks" o Various buffer overruns detected and extra checks added. o Pentium "F00F bug" is detected and a work-around installed to prevent hangs. o srandomdev() support merged from -current and utilities updated to use it. -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 08:46:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23346 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:46:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23337 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10176 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:46:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805121546.IAA10176@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:46:27 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let try to come with a list of the top 3 or 5 applications that we would like to see ported to FreeBSD. The applications for now will have to be affordable -- less than $300. After we get the list we mass mail the software vendor asking them for a port to FreeBSD. With the anti-trust sentiments being so high this week , it is a great time to go out and get brand new apps for FreeBSD! Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 10:00:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05794 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:00:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05769 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:00:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15680; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:59:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05172; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805121659.JAA05172@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Any one still use UUCP? In-Reply-To: <19980512115332.62287@cons.org> from Martin Cracauer at "May 12, 98 11:53:32 am" To: cracauer@cons.org (Martin Cracauer) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:59:50 -0700 (PDT) Cc: drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Martin Cracauer: > In <199805082155.RAA00455@stratos.net>, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > > So, is UUCP a dying art? Is it that some places just don't have > > access to the Internet or an Ethernet, but they can arrange for UUCP? > > Or is there some advantage to UUCP that I am not aware about? > > In fact, the copy of your mail I read was tranferred by uucp (over > tcp). > > Mail batching is easier and more flexible if you use uucp. The > sendmail queue trick works only if the target machine isn't > reachable. My mail-reading machine is reachable, but every single > connect costs 12 Pfennig (Germany...), so I batch manually, while a > "real" tcp sendmail would contact my machine verytime a mail > @freebsd.org arrives. > > Also, I can easily compress mails, which is a great thing for German > users who pay on a per-megabyte count. Not that it speeds up much for > small mails, but it is cheaper. > Another use for UUCP//email is retrieving files via ftpmail (or bitftp). A port that I recently submitted, rftp, reconstructs ftpmail-fetched tarballs from their many (dozens, scores) of email messages and puts the reconstructed file into a directory. This was useful for all the years that my only link was a uucp site 3500km from where I was. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 11:23:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24513 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24497 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02118; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:25:48 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:25:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) In-Reply-To: <199805121546.IAA10176@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 12 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Let try to come with a list of the top 3 or 5 applications that we >would like to see ported to FreeBSD. The applications for now >will have to be affordable -- less than $300. > >After we get the list we mass mail the software vendor asking them >for a port to FreeBSD. With the anti-trust sentiments being so high >this week , it is a great time to go out and get brand new apps for >FreeBSD! I guess a good word processor, and Mathematica would have to be my top pics. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 12:28:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06880 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:28:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06754 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yZKiB-0002p9-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:27:39 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:27:40 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) In-Reply-To: <199805121546.IAA10176@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Let try to come with a list of the top 3 or 5 applications that we > would like to see ported to FreeBSD. The applications for now > will have to be affordable -- less than $300. Informix? Has anyone heard of/used Tetra's (www.tetraworld.com) accounts software? (The latest version is called Tetra CS/3.) Their software is ported on SCO UNIX & SCO OpenServer, AIX, MS-DOS, and client-server under Windows. (Tetra might be one of the leading industrial accounting packages now and/or in the future if you believe their web site.) Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 17:35:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA07121 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07083 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:35:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id KAA20582 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:35:35 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:35:32 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Chucky Pics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone aware of a large-ish picture of chucky suitable for an X background? I've checked out the freebsd image archive and havent found anything other than small ones. Or alternatively, are there any freebsd logo's/pics/etc suitable for an X background either as a tile or a single image? I could whip together themes for afterstep/enlightenment/kde and surrepticiously upload them to the appropriate websites. ;) Oh and one other thing, I was pleased to note that kde has a mention of freebsd on their site (www.kde.org). Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 19:13:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21135 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA21125 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:13:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 43016 invoked from network); 13 May 1998 02:13:28 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 13 May 1998 02:13:28 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-210.realtime.net [204.96.0.210]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA05105; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:13:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:21:09 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Amancio Hasty cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) In-Reply-To: <199805121546.IAA10176@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm a renegade. I want a good CAD system. One with real dimensioning and an established interface to CAM (manufacturing). My computer background is in machine shop applications. It is a tightly defined market and one where people are not afraid to spend $ to get a job done. OK, OK... Accounting. That is my other choice. One which would support calls into the database from external programs. John On Tue, 12 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Let try to come with a list of the top 3 or 5 applications that we > would like to see ported to FreeBSD. The applications for now > will have to be affordable -- less than $300. > > After we get the list we mass mail the software vendor asking them > for a port to FreeBSD. With the anti-trust sentiments being so high > this week , it is a great time to go out and get brand new apps for > FreeBSD! > > > Cheers, > Amancio > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 20:50:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01982 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:50:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01964 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id NAA08551 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:50:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:50:11 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, software we need for freebsd... As a student I want a nice office productivity suite. Nothing too fancy, but hopefully a decent WYSIWYG word processor, spreadsheets, etc. I know you're all gonna yell at me to use staroffice, but i'm on a p75 here and last time i checked the mini requirements were up in the p100+ range. If this has changed since last time I looked at it (or if i read it incorrectly the first time) please let me know. Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 22:36:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14987 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:36:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14950 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id PAA13778 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:36:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:36:24 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: a freeware nt clone? (WinX) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I found this url today, i think many people here will be interested. http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2608/index.html Blurb from site: The WinX project is designing and writing a Windows NT 4.0 Clone. The project will include almost all of the Windows NT 4.0/5.0 features and some additional features not available in either products. Since most of the Windows NT 4.0 internal features are a closely guarded secret by Microsoft, WinX is being written from the ground up. Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 23:03:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18684 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18661 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA02467; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:32:58 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:32:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what they're up to. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 23:29:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21629 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21599 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA19936; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:29:51 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199805130629.QAA19936@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? In-Reply-To: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 13, 98 03:32:57 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:29:51 +1000 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what > they're up to. It took me quite a while before I finally got to the page where they put Solaris after "Unix". I was beginning to wonder if they new what Unix is. I must put an item on my list of things to do... send them mail asking for a NetBSD/Vax port of IE4.0. 8-) Looks to me as though they want to try to control the definition of what goes on the desktop. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 23:31:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22106 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21991 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id QAA02592; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:00:44 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980513160043.K20153@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:00:43 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Birrell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> <199805130629.QAA19936@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805130629.QAA19936@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:29:51PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 16:29:51 +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what >> they're up to. > > It took me quite a while before I finally got to the page where they > put Solaris after "Unix". I was beginning to wonder if they new what > Unix is. I must put an item on my list of things to do... send them > mail asking for a NetBSD/Vax port of IE4.0. 8-) > > Looks to me as though they want to try to control the definition of > what goes on the desktop. Right, that's my take too. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 12 23:40:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23429 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (fern14.verinet.com [199.45.181.78]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id AAA00370; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:40:11 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26753; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:41:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:41:15 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199805130641.AAA26753@const.> To: grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what > they're up to. > Propaganda. This exists so that Bill may attend social functions and DOJ hearings and rebuff claims of monopoly business practices. I doubt you will ever see more than 'Beta 2' on Solaris. Stop for a moment and consider the plight of the small band of UNIX types working for Microsoft porting IE 4 to UNIX. Can you say irrelevant? :) -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 00:35:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00932 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00888 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA03879; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:34:34 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980513173430.49277@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:34:30 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:32:57PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:32:57PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what > they're up to. I tried to find technical info and the fine print about "free", but it was pretty awkward to follow their fancy navigation gadgets. Nottaworry, Netscape exploded and disappeared on the third page. This is all that URL showed with lynx. I wonder which operating system they expect lynx users to have :-) Internet Explorer 4.0 Home ; FRAME: home_top FRAME: main Microsoft HomeProductsSearchSupportShopWrite Us Microsoft Home Because your browser does not support viewing Web sites that have been designed using frames, you wont be able to see all the content weve put together for you. If you want to view the newly redesigned Internet Explorer Web Site, download Internet Explorer now. It's free! Select your operating system from the list below, and you're on your way! * Windows 95 and Windows NT 4.0 * Windows 3.1 and Windows NT 3.51 * Macintosh (PowerPC and 68k) These people know their business and do it to a consistently high standard. Here they demonstrate how well they can provide for unix users' needs. What a shame I'm too silly to be able to find out more about this product. Seriously, I would like to know what conditions they place on the download and use (private/commercial) of this software. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 02:02:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA15966 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15941 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:02:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12320; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:02:23 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA08495; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:02:18 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980513110217.31625@follo.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:02:17 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: a freeware nt clone? (WinX) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:36:24PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:36:24PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > I found this url today, i think many people here will be interested. > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2608/index.html > > Blurb from site: > > The WinX project is designing and writing a Windows NT 4.0 Clone. The > project will include almost all of the Windows NT 4.0/5.0 features and > some additional features not available in either products. Since most > of the Windows NT 4.0 internal features are a closely guarded secret > by Microsoft, WinX is being written from the ground up. What's interesting is that these guys are changing the specs for what they're attempting to write from month to month.... The last time I looked it was (IIRC) something like a Virtual Machine for x86, capable of running programs from all operating systems... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 02:20:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18752 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18724 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA08877; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:20:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:20:15 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 13 May 1998 11:20:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 15:32:57 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what > they're up to. Don't worry. I've tried it, and it works (if possible) even worse than on Windows. I couldn't even get it to display Microsoft's pages correctly (couldn't get it to display them at all, in fact). -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 05:36:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19644 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 05:36:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19540 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 05:36:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA11430; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:39:09 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980513143908.45595@cons.org> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:39:08 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 01:50:11PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In , Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > As a student I want a nice office productivity suite. Nothing too fancy, > but hopefully a decent WYSIWYG word processor, spreadsheets, etc. I know > you're all gonna yell at me to use staroffice, but i'm on a p75 here and > last time i checked the mini requirements were up in the p100+ range. You might want to try the Linux version of applixware. Runs nicely on the P90/32M/FreeBSD-2.2.2 of my housemate. In germany, it is being sold for DM 120. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 06:41:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01045 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00968 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id JAA21861 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:40:42 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? In-Reply-To: <199805130629.QAA19936@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998, John Birrell wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what > > they're up to. That's been around for several months, with versions for other than Solaris RSN. > It took me quite a while before I finally got to the page where they > put Solaris after "Unix". I was beginning to wonder if they new what > Unix is. I must put an item on my list of things to do... send them > mail asking for a NetBSD/Vax port of IE4.0. 8-) > > Looks to me as though they want to try to control the definition of > what goes on the desktop. I normally don't point out spelling errors on lists, but that should be "They want to control the world." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 08:02:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10881 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:02:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10617 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04221; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:00:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:00:33 -0600 To: FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? In-Reply-To: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg: It's for Solaris only, which indicates that Microsoft wants to invade Sun's turf. I dunno about you, but I would NOT load anything from Microsoft onto a UNIX system and type "make" as root. Considering how badly their Windows installation software can corrupt a system -- and how they effectively boot Netscape out of the system on Macs -- that'd be dumb if not suicidal. --Brett At 03:32 PM 5/13/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what >they're up to. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 08:51:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19155 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19133 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06281; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:50:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA05688; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805131550.IAA05688@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Chucky Pics In-Reply-To: from Nicholas Charles Brawn at "May 13, 98 11:51:41 am" To: ncb05@uow.edu.au (Nicholas Charles Brawn) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Nicholas Charles Brawn: > On Tue, 12 May 1998, Gary Kline wrote: > > > According to Nicholas Charles Brawn: > > > > > > Oh and one other thing, I was pleased to note that kde has a mention of > > > freebsd on their site (www.kde.org). > > > > > > > Relating to the above, can anyone contribute to a list > > of places or people where FreeBSD is favorably mentioned? > > Businesses too, of course. I'll use it in an article that > > I have underway. > > > > gary > > > > > > > > I think you forgot to cc freebsd-chat on this. > (!) I thought I hit `g' instead of `r'... Thanks. Anyway, whoever has URL's or other pointers to FBSD-friendly mentions, please let me know. -g > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 09:13:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:13:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21884 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:13:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 12512 invoked by uid 1000); 13 May 1998 16:17:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19980513181725.A12500@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:17:25 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> <199805130629.QAA19936@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199805130629.QAA19936@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:29:51PM +1000 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:29:51PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what > > they're up to. ... I browsed around the IE-section of their website a few days ago. Since I knew that there is only a Solaris (Sparc) version of IE, I wondered about all the general 'unix'-nomenclature, too. > It took me quite a while before I finally got to the page where they > put Solaris after "Unix". I was beginning to wonder if they new what > Unix is. I must put an item on my list of things to do... send them > mail asking for a NetBSD/Vax port of IE4.0. 8-) I finally got into the mood to send them a mail concerning the fact that I got the unix-IE-package and it just didn't run on my computer ;). Regards, Andreas -- /// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter | /// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with /// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP /// ------------------------------------------------------------------- /// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key /// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 09:56:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00467 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:56:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.122.116.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00356 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di10hh.bonline.net (di10hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.138]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id aa316186 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:55:06 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805121546.IAA10176@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:56:21 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Amancio Hasty , jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: RE: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-May-98 Amancio Hasty wrote: > After we get the list we mass mail the software vendor asking them > for a port to FreeBSD. With the anti-trust sentiments being so high > this week , it is a great time to go out and get brand new apps for > FreeBSD! Why mass mail? Why not a little more established way? I think it was better to find a retail organisation who'd ask the vendors. Anticipated profit is more convincing than 50 to 150 (maybe even annoying) mails from uncertain endcustomers. Here in Germany i'd have a partner, and we are thinking about a commercial software collection plus installation support with purchasable key-enabled installation option for each contained product. This had certainly a better chance if it would have an international base. Anyone interested in participation? Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 10:14:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02521 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:14:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02513 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:14:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22522 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:06:13 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3559D317.778BB97@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:06:31 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > It's for Solaris only, which indicates that Microsoft wants to invade > Sun's turf. they're talking about an HP version as well... Linux gets a mention on their web page about the developers though (something about 'operating system of choice', I think those were the words!) in places they manage to make it sound like porting to a different unix is as difficult as writing a unix version in the first place... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 10:55:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08570 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cynix.ecn.purdue.edu (cynix.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.198.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08532 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:55:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from splite@purdue.edu) Received: (from splite@localhost) by cynix.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25600 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:53:16 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Plite Message-Id: <199805131753.MAA25600@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Subject: Microsoft its own country? To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:53:14 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Had a good laugh from the Microsoft home page: > Do You Live in a Country Outside the U.S.? > Are you looking for local content? Our worldwide sites > feature content from 52 countries in 41 languages. Come > see what's there for you! Is it possible Microsoft is starting to feel a bit isolated here in the US? And why would anyone go to a Microsoft site for non-English content when they can't write decent English to begin with? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 11:04:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10088 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.inw.net (ns.inw.net [206.28.240.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10081 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:04:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mcneills@inw.net) Received: from mcneills (keppp28.inw.net [207.2.103.97]) by ns.inw.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA21230 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mcneills (VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:01:23 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01bd7e99$05a4bba0$0200a8c0@Dell> Reply-To: "Dennis Reiter" From: "Dennis Reiter" To: Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:00:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.2038.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2039.0 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.2.5 Unregistered Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You mean Microsoft hasn't claimed "Unix" as it's own and changed it's meaning? I wonder what's taking so long. I thought it was slated to be re-engineered immediately after "DNS"! Regards, Denny Reiter denny@kewanee.net ICQ # 823496 ------------------------------------------ FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Braukmann To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? >Hi, > >On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:29:51PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: >> > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what >> > they're up to. >... I browsed around the IE-section of their website a few days ago. >Since I knew that there is only a Solaris (Sparc) version of IE, I >wondered about all the general 'unix'-nomenclature, too. > >> It took me quite a while before I finally got to the page where they >> put Solaris after "Unix". I was beginning to wonder if they new what >> Unix is. I must put an item on my list of things to do... send them >> mail asking for a NetBSD/Vax port of IE4.0. 8-) >I finally got into the mood to send them a mail concerning the fact >that I got the unix-IE-package and it just didn't run on my computer ;). > >Regards, > Andreas > >-- >/// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter | >/// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with >/// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP >/// ------------------------------------------------------------------- >/// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key >/// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 11:30:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16414 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:30:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.inw.net (ns.inw.net [206.28.240.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16308 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mcneills@inw.net) Received: from mcneills (keppp12.inw.net [207.2.103.81]) by ns.inw.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA00344 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:29:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mcneills (VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:31:37 -0500 Message-ID: <003501bd7e9d$3efa7ad0$0200a8c0@Dell> Reply-To: "Dennis Reiter" From: "Dennis Reiter" To: Subject: Re: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:30:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.2038.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2039.0 X-Server: VPOP3 V1.2.5 Unregistered Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One of the mail-order catalogs that I get, TigerDirect out of Florida, is pushing Linux from Walnut Creek (and Caldera.) Could they (WC) maybe offer FreeBSD to TigerDirect also or have they tried that? Regards, Denny Reiter denny@kewanee.net ICQ # 823496 ------------------------------------------ FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info -----Original Message----- From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Amancio Hasty ; jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 12:58 PM Subject: RE: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) > >On 12-May-98 Amancio Hasty wrote: >> After we get the list we mass mail the software vendor asking them >> for a port to FreeBSD. With the anti-trust sentiments being so high >> this week , it is a great time to go out and get brand new apps for >> FreeBSD! > >Why mass mail? Why not a little more established way? >I think it was better to find a retail organisation who'd >ask the vendors. Anticipated profit is more convincing than >50 to 150 (maybe even annoying) mails from uncertain endcustomers. > >Here in Germany i'd have a partner, and we are thinking about >a commercial software collection plus installation support >with purchasable key-enabled installation option for each >contained product. This had certainly a better chance if it >would have an international base. > >Anyone interested in participation? > > Lars > >/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > Ph: +49 40 54768010 >Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 > Mo: +49 171 9307085 > EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de > > BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 12:01:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22307 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22292 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16532; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805131900.MAA16532@rah.star-gate.com> To: kuehl@lgk.de cc: Amancio Hasty , jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: Got Software? (Corel: Time for some advocacy) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 18:56:21 +0200." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <16529.895086049.1@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:00:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why mass ? Well, I didn't know that we had another business avenue to reach software vendors. With respect to your idea , I am all ears ! What packages are you planning to include? Tnks! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 13:41:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12803 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12777 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id GAA21689; Thu, 14 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199805132043.GAA21689@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Microsoft its own country? In-Reply-To: <199805131753.MAA25600@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> from Steven Plite at "May 13, 98 12:53:14 pm" To: splite@purdue.edu (Steven Plite) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steven Plite wrote: > Had a good laugh from the Microsoft home page: > > > Do You Live in a Country Outside the U.S.? > > Are you looking for local content? Our worldwide sites > > feature content from 52 countries in 41 languages. Come > > see what's there for you! > > Is it possible Microsoft is starting to feel a bit isolated here in the US? > And why would anyone go to a Microsoft site for non-English content when > they can't write decent English to begin with? If you download from a site close to you, they reconfigure the content so that you get local pay-for-service buttons in the menus. At least that's what happens here is Oz. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 14:22:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19341 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:22:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt053nd2.san.rr.com [204.210.34.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19297 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Received: from dal.net (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18885; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:22:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Message-ID: <355A0F1A.30F33317@dal.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:22:34 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE-0507 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Reiter CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <000c01bd7e99$05a4bba0$0200a8c0@Dell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dennis Reiter wrote: > > You mean Microsoft hasn't claimed "Unix" as it's own and > changed it's meaning? Actually I heard from a reliable source that MS sought and received "unix" certification for NT from whichever group owns the trademark this week. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud designer and maintainer of the world's largest Internet *** Relay Chat server with 5,328 simultaneous connections. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 16:04:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09558 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:04:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09217 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA05923; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:33:34 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514083334.C3535@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:33:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:00:33AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 9:00:33 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:32 PM 5/13/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what >> they're up to. > > It's for Solaris only, which indicates that Microsoft wants to invade Sun's > turf. I dunno about you, but I would NOT load anything from Microsoft onto > a UNIX system and type "make" as root. Considering how badly their Windows > installation software can corrupt a system -- and how they effectively boot > Netscape out of the system on Macs -- that'd be dumb if not suicidal. If you think they're going to supply source, you seriously misread the situation. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 16:05:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09791 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:05:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09710 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA05944; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:35:26 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514083526.D3535@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:35:26 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Stuart Henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> <3559D317.778BB97@internationalschool.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3559D317.778BB97@internationalschool.co.uk>; from Stuart Henderson on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 06:06:31PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 18:06:31 +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: >> >> It's for Solaris only, which indicates that Microsoft wants to invade >> Sun's turf. > > they're talking about an HP version as well... Linux gets a mention on > their web page about the developers though (something about 'operating > system of choice', I think those were the words!) > > in places they manage to make it sound like porting to a different unix > is as difficult as writing a unix version in the first place... It's probably more difficult. A while back I saw a description of how to use pipes with NT. What was a line or two in UNIX became the best part of a page of LongFunctionNames and hundreds of parameters. Posting to UNIX must imply a complete rewrite of the parts which interface with the kernel (or even the C library). Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 16:06:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10099 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09958; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:06:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805132306.RAA09958@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:06:18 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? In-Reply-To: <19980514083334.C3535@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:33 AM 5/14/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >If you think they're going to supply source, you seriously misread the >situation. > >Greg Who said anything about source? Makefiles are frequently used to install binaries. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 16:08:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10420 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10381 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA05960; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:37:24 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514083724.E3535@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:37:24 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Studded , Dennis Reiter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?) References: <000c01bd7e99$05a4bba0$0200a8c0@Dell> <355A0F1A.30F33317@dal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <355A0F1A.30F33317@dal.net>; from Studded on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 02:22:34PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 14:22:34 -0700, Studded wrote: > Dennis Reiter wrote: >> >> You mean Microsoft hasn't claimed "Unix" as it's own and >> changed it's meaning? > > Actually I heard from a reliable source that MS sought and received > "unix" certification for NT from whichever group owns the trademark this > week. It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? FreeBSD IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) Microsoft Windows NT System V Hint: only one of them may not. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 17:16:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22648 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:16:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22624 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:16:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA00664; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:46:30 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514094629.I320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:46:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> <19980514083334.C3535@freebie.lemis.com> <199805132306.RAA09958@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805132306.RAA09958@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 05:06:18PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 17:06:18 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:33 AM 5/14/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> If you think they're going to supply source, you seriously misread the >> situation. > > Who said anything about source? Makefiles are frequently used to install > binaries. Well, we do, but not many other people would. I very much doubt there's a Makefile in there. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 18:52:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07784 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07752 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id LAA24400 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:51:51 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:51:49 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? In-Reply-To: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > Greg: > > It's for Solaris only, which indicates that Microsoft wants to invade Sun's > turf. I dunno about you, but I would NOT load anything from Microsoft onto > a UNIX system and type "make" as root. Considering how badly their Windows > installation software can corrupt a system -- and how they effectively boot > Netscape out of the system on Macs -- that'd be dumb if not suicidal. > > --Brett > [snip] That's providing they provide you with source code in order to build it. And i'm fairly certain they're not going to do that in the near future. But i do see your point about installing anything from MS considering their history of making nasty little configurations without informing you. Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 19:17:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11803 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (pechter@shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11792 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id WAA00168; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:16:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199805140216.WAA00168@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980514083724.E3535@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at May 14, 98 08:37:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 14:22:34 -0700, Studded wrote: > > Dennis Reiter wrote: > >> > >> You mean Microsoft hasn't claimed "Unix" as it's own and > >> changed it's meaning? > > > > Actually I heard from a reliable source that MS sought and received > > "unix" certification for NT from whichever group owns the trademark this > > week. > > It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which > of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? > > FreeBSD > IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) > Microsoft Windows NT > System V > > Hint: only one of them may not. > > Greg I know it's FreeBSD... but has WinNT made Unix95 certification? is my old SVR2 Unix95? Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 19:21:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12342 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12329 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:21:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA01833; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:50:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514115056.V320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:50:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX 95 (was: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?)) References: <19980514083724.E3535@freebie.lemis.com> <199805140216.WAA00168@shell.monmouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805140216.WAA00168@shell.monmouth.com>; from Bill/Carolyn Pechter on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 10:16:00PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 22:16:00 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >> >> On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 14:22:34 -0700, Studded wrote: >>> Dennis Reiter wrote: >>>> >>>> You mean Microsoft hasn't claimed "Unix" as it's own and >>>> changed it's meaning? >>> >>> Actually I heard from a reliable source that MS sought and received >>> "unix" certification for NT from whichever group owns the trademark this >>> week. >> >> It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which >> of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? >> >> FreeBSD >> IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) >> Microsoft Windows NT >> System V >> >> Hint: only one of them may not. >> >> Greg > > I know it's FreeBSD... but has WinNT made Unix95 certification? Yup. It doesn't say much about UNIX 95, does it? > is my old SVR2 Unix95? No. But that's not really fair. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 20:19:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA21549 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21540 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:19:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA18046; Thu, 14 May 1998 03:18:20 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id FAA17642; Thu, 14 May 1998 05:18:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980514051820.09178@follo.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 05:18:20 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Greg Lehey , Stuart Henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> <3559D317.778BB97@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980514083526.D3535@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980514083526.D3535@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, May 14, 1998 at 08:35:26AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 14, 1998 at 08:35:26AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 18:06:31 +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: > > they're talking about an HP version as well... Linux gets a mention on > > their web page about the developers though (something about 'operating > > system of choice', I think those were the words!) > > > > in places they manage to make it sound like porting to a different unix > > is as difficult as writing a unix version in the first place... > > It's probably more difficult. A while back I saw a description of how > to use pipes with NT. What was a line or two in UNIX became the best > part of a page of LongFunctionNames and hundreds of parameters. > Posting to UNIX must imply a complete rewrite of the parts which > interface with the kernel (or even the C library). But porting to another Unix when you already have a UNIX port shouldn't be too hard unless they've _really_ screwed up. It is many years since I've seen anything that was really hard to port (except kernel drivers, and ps et al). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 13 20:53:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26415 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26401 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:52:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA02147; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:22:38 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514132238.A320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:22:38 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund , Stuart Henderson , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? References: <199805131500.JAA04221@lariat.lariat.org> <3559D317.778BB97@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980514083526.D3535@freebie.lemis.com> <19980514051820.09178@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980514051820.09178@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Thu, May 14, 1998 at 05:18:20AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 May 1998 at 5:18:20 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Thu, May 14, 1998 at 08:35:26AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 18:06:31 +0100, Stuart Henderson wrote: >>> they're talking about an HP version as well... Linux gets a mention on >>> their web page about the developers though (something about 'operating >>> system of choice', I think those were the words!) >>> >>> in places they manage to make it sound like porting to a different unix >>> is as difficult as writing a unix version in the first place... >> >> It's probably more difficult. A while back I saw a description of how >> to use pipes with NT. What was a line or two in UNIX became the best >> part of a page of LongFunctionNames and hundreds of parameters. >> Posting to UNIX must imply a complete rewrite of the parts which >> interface with the kernel (or even the C library). > > But porting to another Unix when you already have a UNIX port > shouldn't be too hard unless they've _really_ screwed up. Correct. > It is many years since I've seen anything that was really hard to > port (except kernel drivers, and ps et al). I have two thoughts on the subject. 1. It's probably not in Microsoft's interests to port to all UNIX platforms at once. Even if they intend to ensnare UNIX users with IE, they don't want to give the impression that it's easy to port to UNIX. 2. After reading the articles, I'm not sure that their people are very experienced. It's quite conceivable that, faced with the undoubted obscenities in the Exploder code, they might have made suboptimal porting decisions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 00:37:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27573 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 00:37:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (csnet.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA27564 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 00:37:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd [132.68.32.8]) by csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA10677; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:35:46 +0300 Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA05324; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:36:12 +0300 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:36:12 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Steven Plite cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft its own country? In-Reply-To: <199805131753.MAA25600@cynix.ecn.purdue.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 13 May 1998, Steven Plite wrote: > Had a good laugh from the Microsoft home page: > > > Do You Live in a Country Outside the U.S.? > > Are you looking for local content? Our worldwide sites > > feature content from 52 countries in 41 languages. Come > > see what's there for you! > > Is it possible Microsoft is starting to feel a bit isolated here in the US? > And why would anyone go to a Microsoft site for non-English content when > they can't write decent English to begin with? And their Israeli site is another example of Bill's the-world-is-me philosophy. They display Hebrew in a way that can only be viewed in IE 4.0 on Win95, so if you use Netscape, or you're not running Win95, you're out of luck. The bad thing is that they get other sites to use this method too, mostly people who don't understand what they're doing. BTW, last week a newspaper here found out that a government site (don't remember which, sorry), had IIS and BackOffice promotions on its home page. When they checked out with that ministry's spokesman, they were told that they simply installed IIS and didn't know how to change some of the default headers it displays or something. Just to show you how knowledgable are the people who manager those sites, or how deep Billy goes ;-< Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 01:17:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04360 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 01:17:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA04353 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 01:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (root@[10.1.140.1]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id KAA04796; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:15:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (pc8811.gud.siemens.co.at [195.3.22.159]) by pc8811.gud.siemens.at (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13695; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:16:28 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980514083724.E3535@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:16:27 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Siemens Austria AG From: Marino Ladavac To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dennis Reiter , Studded Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-May-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which > of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? > > FreeBSD > IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) > Microsoft Windows NT > System V > > Hint: only one of them may not. FreeBSD. The others have either passed the certification tests or are grandfathered (System V :) /Marino To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 01:33:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07800 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 01:33:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ceia.nordier.com (slip139-92-122-94.joh.za.ibm.net [139.92.122.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07755 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 01:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rnordier@nordier.com) Received: (from rnordier@localhost) by ceia.nordier.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA10596; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:27:55 +0200 (SAT) From: Robert Nordier Message-Id: <199805140827.KAA10596@ceia.nordier.com> Subject: Re: UNIX 95 In-Reply-To: <19980514115056.V320@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 14, 98 11:50:56 am" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:27:53 +0200 (SAT) Cc: pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 22:16:00 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > >> It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which > >> of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? > >> > >> FreeBSD > >> IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) > >> Microsoft Windows NT > >> System V > >> > >> Hint: only one of them may not. > >> > >> Greg > > > > I know it's FreeBSD... but has WinNT made Unix95 certification? > > Yup. It doesn't say much about UNIX 95, does it? The current official UNIX95 list (by vendor) is: BULL AIX DIGITAL Digital UNIX HITACHI HI-UX/WE2 HP HP-UX IBM AIX; OS/390 NCR NCR UNIX; Solaris NEC UX/4800 SCO UnixWare SGI IRIX 6.5 SNI BS2000/OSD; Reliant UNIX SPISI Reliant UNIX SUN Solaris Having had some dealings with the Open Group, I think they do a good (though frequently misunderstood) job on the whole. FreeBSD is far from compliance, as regards many standards: principally because of a distinct lack of interest, although lack of great piles of ready cash is also a factor. -- Robert Nordier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 02:07:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14364 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:07:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA14355 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA10515; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:06:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:06:52 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Kline Cc: ncb05@uow.edu.au (Nicholas Charles Brawn), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chucky Pics References: <199805131550.IAA05688@athena.tera.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 14 May 1998 11:06:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: Gary Kline's message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary Kline writes: > Anyway, whoever has URL's or other pointers to FBSD-friendly > mentions, please let me know. the "plushies" link is particularly interesting (there's much more ther than plushies), you can go directly to it: -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 02:33:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18294 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18269 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA13799; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:33:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:33:01 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Studded , Dennis Reiter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?) References: <000c01bd7e99$05a4bba0$0200a8c0@Dell> <355A0F1A.30F33317@dal.net> <19980514083724.E3535@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 14 May 1998 11:33:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 14 May 1998 08:37:24 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which > of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? > > FreeBSD > IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) > Microsoft Windows NT > System V > > Hint: only one of them may not. What's to stop us from making FreeBSD conform to the standard and gain the right to use the UNIX name? -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 02:39:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19232 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19217 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:39:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA03362; Thu, 14 May 1998 19:09:25 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514190925.U320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:09:25 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: Studded , Dennis Reiter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?) References: <000c01bd7e99$05a4bba0$0200a8c0@Dell> <355A0F1A.30F33317@dal.net> <19980514083724.E3535@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzplns5dwoj=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_May_14=2C_1998_a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t_11:33:00AM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 May 1998 at 11:33:00 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: >> It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which >> of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? >> >> FreeBSD >> IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) >> Microsoft Windows NT >> System V >> >> Hint: only one of them may not. > > What's to stop us from making FreeBSD conform to the standard and gain > the right to use the UNIX name? Money. And maybe a feeling that it would lower the quality of FreeBSD. A lot of these "standards" are a bit silly. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 04:14:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA05194 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 04:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA05188 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 04:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id NAA25704 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:14:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:14:33 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The dumbing-down of programming Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 14 May 1998 13:14:32 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This was pointed out to me by a fellow student: ".. Most of the programming team consisted of programmers who had great facility with Windows, Microsoft Visual C++ and the Foundation Classes. In no time at all, it seemed, they had generated many screenfuls of windows and toolbars and dialogs, all with connections to networks and data sources, thousands and thousands of lines of code. But when the inevitable difficulties of debugging came, they seemed at sea. In the face of the usual weird and unexplainable outcomes, they stood a bit agog. It was lef to the UNIX-trained programmers to fix things. The UNIX team members were accustomed to having to know. .." http://www.salon1999.com/21st/feature/ -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 07:00:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03456 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 07:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic25.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA03449 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 07:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id HAA09494; Thu, 14 May 1998 07:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980514070023.51259@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:00:23 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: Greg Lehey , Studded , Dennis Reiter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <000c01bd7e99$05a4bba0$0200a8c0@Dell> <355A0F1A.30F33317@dal.net> <19980514083724.E3535@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzplns5dwoj=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_May_14=2C_1998_a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t_11=3A33=3A00AM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 14, 1998 at 11:33:00AM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > > It's been that way for a long time. UNIX 95%. Trick question: which > > of these operating systems may *not* be called UNIX 95%? > > > > FreeBSD > > IBM OS/390 (formerly MVS) > > Microsoft Windows NT > > System V > > > > Hint: only one of them may not. > > What's to stop us from making FreeBSD conform to the standard and gain > the right to use the UNIX name? > About $100,000US. I have never seen the test suite but I have feeling that it includes streams which we do not support. I just don't think it would buy us much. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.6 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 07:49:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11174 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 07:49:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11165 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 07:49:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA19166; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:49:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199805141449.IAA19166@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? In-Reply-To: <19980514132238.A320@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 14, 98 01:22:38 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:49:07 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 2. After reading the articles, I'm not sure that their people are > very experienced. It's quite conceivable that, faced with the > undoubted obscenities in the Exploder code, they might have made > suboptimal porting decisions. I've found it much easier to build in portability from the beginning. If you want a program to run on several variants of UNIX, build in the portability from the start by giving each of the development team a different workstation. This way, they have a vested interest in keeping it running on each of the different platforms, all the time. Microsoft's team did not do this, and it is probably to their detriment. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 08:49:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21883 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:49:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21874 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:49:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA28852; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:48:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA06558; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805141548.IAA06558@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: UNIX 96 (was: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows?) In-Reply-To: <19980514070023.51259@mooseriver.com> from Josef Grosch at "May 14, 98 07:00:23 am" To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Cc: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, grog@lemis.com, Studded@dal.net, mcneills@inw.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Josef Grosch: [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] [[ ... ]] > > > > What's to stop us from making FreeBSD conform to the standard and gain > > the right to use the UNIX name? > > > > About $100,000US. I have never seen the test suite but I have feeling that > it includes streams which we do not support. I just don't think it would > buy us much. > > > Josef > I've heard that Linux has some implementation of SYSV STREAMS. This was one of Dennis Ritchie's wins as far as I'm concerned... Anybody know the details? gary PS: $50 or $100K is overkill. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 12:49:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:49:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29702 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA23958 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:48:58 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id MAA24442 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:47:26 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Vendetta Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Who ever chose CTRL-X and CTRL-C for send and cancel under pine should be lashed with a wet noodle!! Notice that they are right next to each other. Us poor slobs with fat fingers are always sending things off by accident. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 14:17:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13864 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:17:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13853 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02028; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:17:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:17:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Vendetta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Who ever chose CTRL-X and CTRL-C for send and cancel under pine should be > lashed with a wet noodle!! > > Notice that they are right next to each other. Us poor slobs with fat > fingers are always sending things off by accident. Amen! Although I usually end up cancelling more 15 page, 2 hour writing time messages.... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 14:32:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16492 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16413 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:32:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id RAA06655; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:32:06 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from galileo.cris.com (galileo.concentric.net [206.173.119.84]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id RAA16777; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:32:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@galileo.cris.com To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Vendetta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 May 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > fingers are always sending things off by accident. > Amen! > > Although I usually end up cancelling more 15 page, 2 hour writing time > messages.... THIS is why I have confirmation turned on for both sending AND cancelling. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 14:55:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22079 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA22048 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:55:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ya5yK-0007jM-00; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:55:29 +0100 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.73 #1) id 0ya5Rk-0006V4-00; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:21:48 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:21:47 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Opinion on editors (vile and vim) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi I don't want to start a flame fest; just trying to work out whether switching to Vim-5.x from Vile-7.x is worth it. I have been using Vile for the past few years and I am comfortable with its approach to the "Vi" extras (selections, scripting language...) Vim is similar in functionality but does seem to have a very different way of dealing with selections. I think I might like the syntax highlighting in Vim; Vile has this but it uses an external filter program thus Vile highlights don't update as you are editing. What are your opinions on syntax highlighting? Is it worth the grief to switch editors just to get Vim's dynamic highlighting? Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 15:33:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29071 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:33:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA29056 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08855; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:32:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA08478; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805142232.PAA08478@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Vendetta In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at "May 14, 98 12:47:26 pm" To: jcwells@u.washington.edu (Jason C. Wells) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jason C. Wells: > Who ever chose CTRL-X and CTRL-C for send and cancel under pine should be > lashed with a wet noodle!! > > Notice that they are right next to each other. Us poor slobs with fat > fingers are always sending things off by accident. > C'mon, you've got the code. Change it!! gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 15:55:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01546 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01533 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:55:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0ya6u2-0000kF-00; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:55:06 +0100 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:55:08 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Vendetta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Although I usually end up cancelling more 15 page, 2 hour writing time > messages.... Did you know that if you did that you can compose a new message and press ^R and enter filename dead.letter you get the most recently deleted message back? Ben. ========================================================================== He who despises himself nevertheless esteems himself as a self-despiser. -- Friedrich Nietzsche To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 16:21:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06543 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:21:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06507 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA09000; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:51:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980515085100.D320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:51:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Vendetta References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Thu, May 14, 1998 at 12:47:26PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 May 1998 at 12:47:26 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Who ever chose CTRL-X and CTRL-C for send and cancel under pine should be > lashed with a wet noodle!! > > Notice that they are right next to each other. Us poor slobs with fat > fingers are always sending things off by accident. Indeed. Pine's not a bad mail reader, but I found I just couldn't make friends with it because of minor problems with the key usage. Have you tried mutt? I'm quite happy with it. It also features remappable keys, so that you can completely confuse anybody else. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 17:33:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20287 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20278 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:32:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25847; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:32:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805150032.SAA25847@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:32:51 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Chucky Pics In-Reply-To: References: <199805131550.IAA05688@athena.tera.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id RAA20279 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, what I'd like to see (maybe some of us could commission it!) is a close-up of Chucky pressing his nose against the inside of the CRT -- sort of like he was inside a fish bowl. That's make a neat background picture. --Brett At 11:06 AM 5/14/98 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: >Gary Kline writes: >> Anyway, whoever has URL's or other pointers to FBSD-friendly >> mentions, please let me know. > > > >the "plushies" link is particularly interesting (there's much more >ther than plushies), you can go directly to it: > > > >-- >Noone else has a .sig like this one. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 17:58:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23924 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:58:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23909 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:58:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03793; Thu, 14 May 1998 19:58:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199805150058.TAA03793@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Opinion on editors (vile and vim) In-Reply-To: from Duncan Barclay at "May 14, 98 10:21:47 pm" To: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk (Duncan Barclay) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:58:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi > > I don't want to start a flame fest; just trying to work out whether switching to > Vim-5.x from Vile-7.x is worth it. > Just FYI, I use Vim exclusively, and am quite happy with it. Of course, I am not an editor-type person, and am up to only about 20 commands (I learn only one command per year :-)). I got burnt out when I was a TECO expert, and have sworn not to fall in love with another editor. :-). John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 19:16:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09433 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 19:16:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09412 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA00661; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:46:08 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980515114608.H305@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:46:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The dumbing-down of programming References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpzpglxfxj=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_May_14=2C_1998_a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t_01:14:32PM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 14 May 1998 at 13:14:32 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > This was pointed out to me by a fellow student: > > ".. Most of the programming team consisted of programmers who had > great facility with Windows, Microsoft Visual C++ and the Foundation > Classes. In no time at all, it seemed, they had generated many > screenfuls of windows and toolbars and dialogs, all with connections > to networks and data sources, thousands and thousands of lines of > code. But when the inevitable difficulties of debugging came, they > seemed at sea. In the face of the usual weird and unexplainable > outcomes, they stood a bit agog. It was lef to the UNIX-trained > programmers to fix things. The UNIX team members were accustomed to > having to know. .." > > http://www.salon1999.com/21st/feature/ Are you sure you have the correct URL? I can't find anything like that there. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 20:49:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27321 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:49:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (wumpus.its.uow.edu.au [130.130.68.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27279 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id NAA09434 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:49:38 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:49:36 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Top Ten (was "Linux Sucks") (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This was posted to dc-stuff. Thought it might amuse some people. :) Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:43:32 -0500 From: Richard Windmann To: dc-stuff@dis.org Subject: Top Ten (was "Linux Sucks") LATE NIGHT TOP 10 REASONS WHY LINUX SUCKS 10. Because Linus is from the Netherlands, he must be a pedophile. 9. Babe at the Linux booth at Comdex wouldn't modify my receipt to read "software CD" so I could expense my Redhat jockey shorts. 8. Slackware - enough said. 7. Cute little Penguin mascot puts unsuspecting newbies at ease. 6. The little devil made me do it. 5. It's "sorta" POSIX compliant. 4. It's "BSDish" 3. BSD users never whine and write long boring letters defending their sacred operating system when Linux lamers on the list say "BSD Sucks!" - that would be bad form, and quite frankly, were above all that. 2. It's a breeze to install. 1. rpm is out of date, so I can't use rpm to get the latest rpm. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 22:28:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12788 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:28:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-1-16.stratos.net [207.86.132.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12772 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: from stratos.net (localhost.net [127.0.0.1]) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA16928; Fri, 15 May 1998 01:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805150511.BAA16928@stratos.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Michael Rice" cc: "FreeBSD Questions List" Subject: Re: commercial software In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 May 1998 18:14:37 MDT." <018901bd7f96$72f7b420$6e00cbc0@rice-home> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 01:11:18 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected to freebsd-chat] On Thu, 14 May 1998 18:14:37 MDT, "Michael Rice" wrote: > I couldn't disagree more. > > If I need some software to get a job done, I don't mind paying for it. The > creator of the software deserves to get paid for providing that software. > By buying the software (as opposed to pirating it), I am helping another > human being...I'm helping him earn a living and providing him/her incentive > to create more and better software. > > I do use quite a bit of freeware, thanks to all the gracious authors. > However, I am a capitalist to the bone. I love to see new and innovative > products in the commercial world; I also love to see the creators of those > products rake in as much $$$ as possibile - they deserve it. > > What you speak of just reeks of Socialism. > > BTW, I _love_ Microsoft products and I think Bill Gates is King. > > Michael Rice You think Michael Rice is part of the "grass-roots" pro-Microsoft movement :) Hey Mike: politically, I agree with you. "Freeing yourself from Businessmen" may appeal to some, but considering the fact that we wouldn't even be /driving/ if it weren't for evil businessmen taking risks and selling things (Henry Ford), I happen to think capitalism is a good thing. Of course, Bill Gates is no Henry Ford. (And don't tell me computers give you more freedom than automobiles... I happened to be old-fashioned in this regard.) I guess the thing that bothers me is that for people on the outside looking in, this whole anti-Microsoft thing looks pretty similar to a bunch of anti-smoking zealots going after Tobacco (and I don't work for Big Tobacco or smoke, in case your wondering. But here in Ohio, if one state Senator has her way, there will soon be a bunch of 20-year old's "gettin' busted" for smoking /under-aged/. The next thing you know, the drinking age will be raised to 25... I am ranting, sorry) Statements like "Bill Gates makes enough money already" aren't really the issue (It's no one's damn business how much money he makes -- it's a free country.) I'm not a real technical guy, but I like FreeBSD. I like the flexibility and stability it offers. And I like the atmosphere of FreeBSD and UNIX in general, because people here respect your intelligence and and don't patronize you with self-promoting, just-a-click-of-the-mouse "Tips and Tricks" for moving icons, or whatever. Frankly, I think FreeBSD is /better/ than Microsoft. That's the reason why I subscribe to this mailing list, not because Ralph Nader (Nadar?) is my best friend. :) (Boy, am I going to regret writing this in the morning! That's what you get when a former Political Science major tries to commentate on the state of the computer industry. Sorry guys :) -Rob -- drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 14 22:48:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15145 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:48:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15138 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (tulip2.verinet.com [199.45.181.194]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA23227; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:47:51 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02968; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:48:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:48:13 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199805150548.XAA02968@const.> To: grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: The dumbing-down of programming Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980515114608.H305@freebie.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > This was pointed out to me by a fellow student: > > > > ".. Most of the programming team consisted of programmers who had > > great facility with Windows, Microsoft Visual C++ and the Foundation > > Classes. In no time at all, it seemed, they had generated many > > screenfuls of windows and toolbars and dialogs, all with connections > > to networks and data sources, thousands and thousands of lines of > > code. But when the inevitable difficulties of debugging came, they > > seemed at sea. In the face of the usual weird and unexplainable > > outcomes, they stood a bit agog. It was lef to the UNIX-trained > > programmers to fix things. The UNIX team members were accustomed to > > having to know. .." > > > > http://www.salon1999.com/21st/feature/ > > Are you sure you have the correct URL? I can't find anything like > that there. > It's there. Keep to the side bar on the left, scroll down; 'The Dumbing Down of Programming.' Worth a read. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 03:23:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24450 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 03:23:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA24444 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 03:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id MAA03345 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:23:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:23:10 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Nuclear tests Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 15 May 1998 12:23:09 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 70 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA24445 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I felt this was too good not to be reposted on chat... Pay special attention to the part about free software :) DES "crew cut 'til I die" -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 00:40:53 +0200 From: Dag Oien Message-Id: <199805142240.AAA06330@chrysler.hypnotech.no> To: xanadu@mop.no Subject: Apropos indiske prøvesprengninger... MICROSOFT TESTS NUCLEAR DEVICE AT SECRET HANFORD FACILITY REDMOND (BNN)--World leaders reacted with stunned silence as Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) conducted an underground nuclear test at a secret facility in eastern Washington state. The device, exploded at 9:22 am PDT (1622 GMT/12:22 pm EDT) today, was timed to coincide with talks between Microsoft and the US Department of Justice over possible antitrust action. "Microsoft is going to defend its right to market its products by any and all necessary means," said Microsoft CEO Bill Gates. "Not that I'm anti-government" he continued, "but there would be few tears shed in the computer industry if Washington were engulfed in a bath of nuclear fire." Scientists pegged the explosion at around 100 kilotons. "I nearly dropped my latte when I saw the seismometer" explained University of Washington geophysicist Dr. Whoops Blammover, "At first I thought it was Mt. Rainier, and I was thinking, damn, there goes the mountain bike vacation." In Washington, President Clinton announced the US Government would boycott all Microsoft products indefinitely. Minutes later, the President reversed his decision. "We've tried sanctions since lunchtime, and they don't work," said the President. Instead, the administration will initiate a policy of "constructive engagement" with Microsoft. Microsoft's Chief Technology Officer Nathan Myrhvold said the test justified Microsoft's recent acquisition of the Hanford Nuclear Reservation from the US Government. Not only did Microsoft acquire "kilograms of weapons grade plutonium" in the deal, said Myrhvold, "but we've finally found a place to dump those millions of unsold copies of Microsoft Bob." Myrhvold warned users not to replace Microsoft NT products with rival operating systems. "I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of a radioisotope thermoelectric generator inside of every Pentium II microprocessor," said Myrhvold, "but anyone who installs an OS written by a bunch of long-hairs on the Internet is going to get what they deserve." The existence of an RTG in each Pentium II microprocessor would explain why the microprocessors, made by the Intel Corporation, run so hot. The Intel chips "put out more heat than they draw in electrical power" said Prof. E. E. Thymes of MIT. "This should finally dispell those stories about cold fusion." Rumors suggest a second weapons development project is underway in California, headed by Microsoft rival Sun Microsystems. "They're doing all of the development work in Java," said one source close to the project. The development of a delivery system is said to be holding up progress. "Write once, bomb anywhere is still a dream at the moment." Meanwhile, in Cupertino, California, Apple interim-CEO Steve Jobs was rumored to be in discussion with Oracle CEO Larry Ellison about deploying Apple's Newton technology against Microsoft. "Newton was the biggest bomb the Valley has developed in years," said one hardware engineer. "I'd hate to be around when they drop that product a second time." posted on 14 May 1998 Copyright 1998 by the Bogus News Network. ------- End of forwarded message ------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 06:33:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23281 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 06:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rfcnet.com (rfcnet.com [207.227.20.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA23270 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 06:33:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mattc@rfcnet.com) Received: (from mattc@localhost) by rfcnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18264; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:32:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mattc) Message-ID: <19980515083238.A18132@rfcnet.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:32:38 -0500 From: Matthew Cashdollar To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software References: <018901bd7f96$72f7b420$6e00cbc0@rice-home> <199805150511.BAA16928@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805150511.BAA16928@stratos.net>; from drifter@stratos.net on Fri, May 15, 1998 at 01:11:18AM -0400 x-no-archive: yes Organization: RF Communications, Inc. http://www.rfcinc.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 15, 1998 at 01:11:18AM -0400, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > Hey Mike: politically, I agree with you. "Freeing yourself > from Businessmen" may appeal to some, but considering the fact that > we wouldn't even be /driving/ if it weren't for evil businessmen taking risks > and selling things (Henry Ford), I happen to think capitalism is a good thing. > Of course, Bill Gates is no Henry Ford. (And don't tell me computers > give you more freedom than automobiles... I happened to be old-fashioned > in this regard.) I certainly hope Bill Gates is no Henry Ford. Henry Ford was a supporter of Nazism! He kept a picture of Adolf Hitler on his desk and sent Hitler a birthday card every year!! (I'm not joking..) If Bill Gates is like Henry Ford then I think we have more things to worry about than the release of Windows 98 :) -- Matthew Cashdollar RF Communications, Inc. -- http://www.rfcinc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 07:59:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08609 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 07:59:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08494 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 07:58:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA19308 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:58:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Take a look at http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient_unix.html The cost to you only: $100USD for the source code for: Mini Unix OS, Unix V6, PWB Unix, and Unix V7 (covers editions 1-5, and the 32V) Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 08:26:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11906 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newport-1-12.quick.net (josh@newport-1-12.quick.net [207.212.160.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11608 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh@newport-1-12.quick.net) Received: (from josh@localhost) by newport-1-12.quick.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08342; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:23:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh) Message-ID: <19980515082332.A8183@newport-1-12.quick.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:23:32 -0700 From: Josh Gilliam To: Paul Griffith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.8 In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Take a look at http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient_unix.html > > The cost to you only: $100USD > > for the source code for: Mini Unix OS, Unix V6, PWB Unix, and Unix V7 > (covers editions 1-5, and the 32V) See also http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ -- Josh Gilliam 5333 E Los Arboles Ave 1 714 633 6499 Orange CA 92869-4216 USA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 09:22:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20454 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-5-8.stratos.net [207.86.133.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20442 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:22:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: from stratos.net (localhost.net [127.0.0.1]) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18556; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805151620.MAA18556@stratos.net> To: Matthew Cashdollar cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, drifter@stratos.net Subject: Re: commercial software In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 May 1998 08:32:38 CDT." <19980515083238.A18132@rfcnet.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:20:06 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 May 1998 08:32:38 CDT, Matthew Cashdollar wrote: > [ I (drifter@stratos.nospam.net) wrote: ] >> Of course, Bill Gates is no Henry Ford. (And don't tell me computers >> give you more freedom than automobiles... I happened to be old-fashioned >> in this regard.) > >I certainly hope Bill Gates is no Henry Ford. Henry Ford was a supporter of >Nazism! He kept a picture of Adolf Hitler on his desk and sent Hitler a >birthday card every year!! > >(I'm not joking..) Oh, boy. Looks like Godwin's Law is being invoked. (The one that says that within three days of any post to USENET, the likelihood of comparisons to Nazis will approach 1... Except this is a mailing list.) Sorry I opened my mouth :) So, instead of Henry Ford, I'll try ... Lee Iacocca. Well, maybe not. But my point was, commercialism is not a bad thing. (Look at the alternatives!) I'm just not a big fan of Microsoft's OS and don't like it being forced on me. But I'd just think twice before getting Uncle Sam involved, that's all. There's gotta to be another way... Any ideas :) -drifter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 10:12:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01485 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01461 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id NAA03472; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:12:10 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mariner.cris.com (mariner.concentric.net [206.173.119.83]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id NAA23604; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:12:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@mariner.cris.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: "Larry W. Herzog Jr." Subject: Re: commercial software In-Reply-To: <199805151620.MAA18556@stratos.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 May 1998 drifter@stratos.net wrote: > alternatives!) I'm just not a big fan of Microsoft's OS and don't like > it being forced on me. But I'd just think twice before getting Uncle Sam > involved, that's all. There's gotta to be another way... Any ideas :) I almost didn't sign up with my other-wise excellent ISP because they required Internet Explorer to complete the online sign-up. That's stupid, especially considering how straight-forward a STANDARD form is. I use Windows95 on the laptop (work PC) and was using it to dial in. When I was talking to the sales guy, I told him I was running 95 but not IE and he started in on the 'Well download IE and...' then I stopped him and told him that I shouldn't have to download a SPECIFIC browser just to sign up with them. Besides the fact that they were OBVIOUSLY only accepting online signups from Windows users...BUt as I said, other than that, they are a pretty great ISP. I find it hard to believe that they can offer shell accounts (which I think are becoming more and more rare in an ISP--Ameritech doesn't even let you use ftp to get to your own web pages) with SunOS on one hand, and be so incredibly, dumb-foundingly myopic on the other. At least they use SunOS for the shell account. I believe that SunOS is a BSD type Unix and therefore keeps me on topic, even if this is just "chat". =) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 10:22:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02704 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:22:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02630 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:21:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23856; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:22:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199805151722.KAA23856@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-Reply-To: Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >The cost to you only: $100USD > >for the source code for: Mini Unix OS, Unix V6, PWB Unix, and Unix V7 >(covers editions 1-5, and the 32V) One of the things this gets you, if you happen to care, is the ability to get 4.4BSD-non-Lite. Or any previous release of BSD, for that matter. So, any of you who have vaxen... Admittedly, this really doesn't matter a whole lot anymore, with the free unices available. SCO knows it, and that's why they're doing it; the $100 is, supposedly (and I tend to believe them on this), the cost of the record keeping they need to do, and some of their legal costs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 13:22:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27659 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:22:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt053nd2.san.rr.com [204.210.34.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27580 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Received: from dal.net (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10753; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Message-ID: <355CA3E9.393ACBD9@dal.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:22:01 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE-0507 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drifter@stratos.net CC: Matthew Cashdollar , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software References: <199805151620.MAA18556@stratos.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org drifter@stratos.net wrote: > > On Fri, 15 May 1998 08:32:38 CDT, Matthew Cashdollar wrote: > > [ I (drifter@stratos.nospam.net) wrote: ] > >> Of course, Bill Gates is no Henry Ford. (And don't tell me computers > >> give you more freedom than automobiles... I happened to be old-fashioned > >> in this regard.) > > > >I certainly hope Bill Gates is no Henry Ford. Henry Ford was a supporter of > >Nazism! He kept a picture of Adolf Hitler on his desk and sent Hitler a > >birthday card every year!! > > > >(I'm not joking..) > > Oh, boy. Looks like Godwin's Law is being invoked. (The one that > says that within three days of any post to USENET, the likelihood > of comparisons to Nazis will approach 1... Actually that's the corrolary. :) The actual Godwin rule is that the first person to invoke a comparison to nazi's loses the argument by definition. This was one of my favorite parts of the "old" usenet because judicious use of the Godwin rule could drive the particularly lame flamers into a frenzy due to their carefully written analogies to nazi germany being completely ignored. :) Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud designer and maintainer of the world's largest Internet *** Relay Chat server with 5,328 simultaneous connections. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 17:19:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02494 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02488 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:19:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA23632; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:19:14 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA24952; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:17:46 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Studded cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software In-Reply-To: <355CA3E9.393ACBD9@dal.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 May 1998, Studded wrote: > Actually that's the corrolary. :) The actual Godwin rule is that the >first person to invoke a comparison to nazi's loses the argument by >definition. This was one of my favorite parts of the "old" usenet >because judicious use of the Godwin rule could drive the particularly >lame flamers into a frenzy due to their carefully written analogies to >nazi germany being completely ignored. :) This sounds like some old school stuff that I have never read before. There has to be a reference to this on the web some where. I think I shall have to check this out. In the mean time "MAKE MONEY FAST"! Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 18:14:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10894 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10878; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:14:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21364; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:14:39 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:16:50 GMT Message-ID: <355ce6f6.76496841@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199805152103.QAA03230@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199805152103.QAA03230@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA10885 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 May 1998 16:03:11 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >Again, working on GPLed code isn't a sin or anything like that, >but it is important to understand what the limitations are. The limitations appear to be imaginary. Red Hat and Caldera don't seem to have trouble selling products which include GPLed code. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 18:19:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:19:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11338; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15070; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:19:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199805160119.UAA15070@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-Reply-To: <355ce6f6.76496841@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "May 16, 98 01:16:50 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:19:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, 15 May 1998 16:03:11 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" > wrote: > > >Again, working on GPLed code isn't a sin or anything like that, > >but it is important to understand what the limitations are. > > The limitations appear to be imaginary. Red Hat and Caldera don't > seem to have trouble selling products which include GPLed code. > They aren't inventing very much. The limitations have to do with the redistribution encumberances placed upon inventions derived associated with GPLed works (among others.) They have made a tradeoff that interferes with conventional business plans. It is their problem, and doesn't bother me. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 18:35:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13147 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13136 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:35:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22898; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:35:44 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:37:55 GMT Message-ID: <355dec23.77822475@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199805160119.UAA15070@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199805160119.UAA15070@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA13138 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 May 1998 20:19:07 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >> The limitations appear to be imaginary. Red Hat and Caldera don't >> seem to have trouble selling products which include GPLed code. >> >They aren't inventing very much. For that matter, neither is Walnut Creek. >The limitations have to do with the redistribution encumberances >placed upon inventions derived associated with GPLed works (among >others.) I like an "encumbrance" which prohibits others from hiding the source code of derivative works. >They have made a tradeoff that interferes with conventional business >plans. Conventional business has little future in today's fast moving world. >It is their problem, and doesn't bother me. Is it really a problem, or a solution? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 18:39:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13595 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:39:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13530 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:38:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA06878; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:08:21 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980516110820.W1953@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:08:20 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <199805151722.KAA23856@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805151722.KAA23856@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Fri, May 15, 1998 at 10:22:02AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 May 1998 at 10:22:02 -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >> The cost to you only: $100USD >> >> for the source code for: Mini Unix OS, Unix V6, PWB Unix, and Unix V7 >> (covers editions 1-5, and the 32V) > > One of the things this gets you, if you happen to care, is the ability to get > 4.4BSD-non-Lite. Or any previous release of BSD, for that matter. > > So, any of you who have vaxen... > > Admittedly, this really doesn't matter a whole lot anymore, with the free > unices available. SCO knows it, and that's why they're doing it; the $100 is, > supposedly (and I tend to believe them on this), the cost of the record > keeping they need to do, and some of their legal costs. I think in many ways the license fee reflects the internal struggles in SCO to get this thing off the ground in the first place. Kudos to Dion Johnson for fighting the internal battles. I think the original sum of $100 was, in fact, suggested by Warren Toomey. If anybody's interested, snoop around a bit in pdp11.lemis.com. The user 'guest' has the password '2.11BSD', at least for a couple of days. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 20:57:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26027 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26018 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15606; Fri, 15 May 1998 22:57:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199805160357.WAA15606@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-Reply-To: <355dec23.77822475@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "May 16, 98 01:37:55 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:57:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, 15 May 1998 20:19:07 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" > wrote: > > >> The limitations appear to be imaginary. Red Hat and Caldera don't > >> seem to have trouble selling products which include GPLed code. > >> > >They aren't inventing very much. > > For that matter, neither is Walnut Creek. > And I am not funded by WC, for example. I am funded by an organization whose interest is to make money partially upon invention. Much of my work gets folded into FreeBSD, but we do reserve the right until the last minute to choose not to include the work. Note that FreeBSD != WC, but treats FreeBSD very very kindly and fairly. This is as much a good-will arrangement as anything. > > >The limitations have to do with the redistribution encumberances > >placed upon inventions derived associated with GPLed works (among > >others.) > > I like an "encumbrance" which prohibits others from hiding the source > code of derivative works. > I don't. I think that their inventiveness is their business, and the need to somehow force or trick people to give up the fruits of their inventiveness is a canard. Note that the availability of net-support of newly invented or enhanced works is enough of an enticement. The encumberances of heavy handed licenses aren't necessary and are quite restrictive. One thing that I have found in business over the years is that flexibility is very valuable. > > >They have made a tradeoff that interferes with conventional business > >plans. > > Conventional business has little future in today's fast moving world. > I disagree. Business can cooperate more easily with free software if the work isn't immediately encumbered by licenses that take freedom and choice away. Companies blasting and selling CDROM's are nowhere near paying the cost of development of the various OSes. WC happens to be helping and being very generous to FreeBSD, but is not supporting the vast majority of development. Companies who are contributing to FreeBSD, when using it in product, are doing so because they can freely choose from time to time to keep the works private or not, along with the fact that FreeBSD is being contributed to by other companies who have such freedom. When GPLed parts of the system have to be hacked on, it is understood apriori that the work will not be a part of the competitive advantage. A good example of this cooperation using FreeBSD is amongst two potential competitors in the NC or pseudo-NC business, and both products are better because of the cooperation. However, each business keeps their proprietary or strategic inventions private, so each gets the best of both worlds. The loss to the community of these inventions is nill, because those features aren't needed in a general purpose OS. There is NO risk of GPL contamination here, and it is doing both the free software and commercial software communities good. The CDROM manufacturers help enable the synergy that makes it desirable to contribute free software back into the community. Encumbering licenses aren't needed for established projects. In un-established projects, where the original creator needs better protection, there are better licenses than the BSDL, but that isn't what we are talking about here. > > >It is their problem, and doesn't bother me. > > Is it really a problem, or a solution? > It is their problem, not mine. In my world, I can freely work with both non-GPLed and commercial software with few encumberances that cause mutual problems. I also can work with GPLed code, but tend to avoid spending much effort, unless it meets my immediate strategic goals. (I do like hacking on GCC and stuff, but know that any potential competitive advantage is lost, and so don't bother working very hard or seriously on it.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 21:58:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00443 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:58:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00431 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 21:58:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com) Received: (from gibbs@localhost) by narnia.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA24796; Fri, 15 May 1998 22:54:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:54:29 -0600 (MDT) From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Message-Id: <199805160454.WAA24796@narnia.plutotech.com> To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) Newsgroups: pluto.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199805160119.UAA15070@dyson.iquest.net> <355dec23.77822475@mail.cetlink.net> User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971204 (UNIX) (FreeBSD/3.0-CURRENT (i386)) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <355dec23.77822475@mail.cetlink.net> you wrote: > On Fri, 15 May 1998 20:19:07 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" > wrote: > >>> The limitations appear to be imaginary. Red Hat and Caldera don't >>> seem to have trouble selling products which include GPLed code. >>> >>They aren't inventing very much. > > For that matter, neither is Walnut Creek. Walnut Creek, Red Hat, etc. are distributers. They make their money off of packaging which isn't affected by the license issue. It's people like NCI, Whistle, Pluto, Juniper, etc. that are greatly affected by the license on the code. >>The limitations have to do with the redistribution encumberances >>placed upon inventions derived associated with GPLed works (among >>others.) > > I like an "encumbrance" which prohibits others from hiding the source > code of derivative works. The truth of the matter is, the hiding rarely happens. Take Pluto as an example. There is no doubt in my mind that we simply would not have been able to get our product to market as quickly as we did if we did not go the embedded UNIX route. What made it possible to go this way? Licensing terms that didn't scare our lawyers off, low cost, and a robust system. Because Pluto is using FreeBSD, the FreeBSD community gets two paid, full time professionals working on things like CAM, paid contracts to FreeBSD developers for things like CVSup enhancements and work on GigE/Hippi networking, and lots of code dumped back into the community. The code we are "hiding" you wouldn't want to touch anyway and most of it is userland code that would not be subject to licensing restrictions anyway. We could hide things like CAM, but what is the incentive? By releasing the code into the community, we get far greater test coverage than we could internally and increase the pool of developers that can maintain the code. You don't need to force business to share. There are plenty of examples in the commercial portion of the FreeBSD gallery that prove this. > Conventional business has little future in today's fast moving world. Basing your product on something "free" is not very conventional. >>It is their problem, and doesn't bother me. > > Is it really a problem, or a solution? A solution to what problem? Pluto would have gone with an RTOS if the licensing terms didn't work out, so in my opinion, you either get what the corparate users decide to contribute back, or you get nothing at all. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 22:11:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01413 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 22:11:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01384; Fri, 15 May 1998 22:10:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from newman.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22259; Fri, 15 May 1998 23:10:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:10:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805160510.XAA22259@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) From: Wes Peters To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.5 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (John Kelly) alleged: % On Fri, 15 May 1998 16:03:11 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" % wrote: % % >Again, working on GPLed code isn't a sin or anything like that, % >but it is important to understand what the limitations are. % % The limitations appear to be imaginary. Red Hat and Caldera don't % seem to have trouble selling products which include GPLed code. But they do sell the source, too. That's the sticking point for commercial products. Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr Softweyr llc mailto:wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 15 23:49:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09662 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 23:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09657 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 23:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from newman.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA22474 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 00:49:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:49:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805160649.AAA22474@softweyr.com> Subject: FreeBSD in the Press From: Wes Peters To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.5 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mr Brett Glass, writer of many tech articles in various PC-related rags, has given FreeBSD an excellent plug in his on-line column in "SRO Online", a ZDnet publication. The column can be found at: http://www.zdnet.com/sr/columns/glass/ -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr Softweyr llc mailto:wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 02:39:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA19089 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:39:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA19084 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:39:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA22018; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:39:06 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Justin T. Gibbs" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 09:41:10 GMT Message-ID: <355d5c06.1764517@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199805160454.WAA24796@narnia.plutotech.com> In-Reply-To: <199805160454.WAA24796@narnia.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id CAA19085 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> I like an "encumbrance" which prohibits others from hiding the source >> code of derivative works. > >The truth of the matter is, the hiding rarely happens. If so, then the GPL works just as well, "encumbrances" and all. > There is no doubt in my mind that we simply would not have >been able to get our product to market as quickly as we did if we did >not go the embedded UNIX route. What made it possible to go this way? >Licensing terms that didn't scare our lawyers off It's sad there are executives who don't know how to take charge of their own lawyers. OTOH, there are plenty of lawyers who can work with the GPL to produce an equivalent result. >The code we are "hiding" you wouldn't want to touch anyway and most of >it is userland code that would not be subject to licensing restrictions >anyway. Then there's little real basis for objection to the GPL. >We could hide things like CAM, but what is the incentive? More support for the GPL. If there is no incentive to hide, why object to license terms which prohibit hiding? >By releasing the code into the community, we get far greater test >coverage than we could internally and increase the pool of developers >that can maintain the code. Sounds like GPL to me. >You don't need to force business to share. OTOH, why do business need to hide? >A solution to what problem? Pluto would have gone with an RTOS if the >licensing terms didn't work out, so in my opinion, you either get what >the corparate users decide to contribute back, or you get nothing at all. True, but that's a result of traditional corporate management and thinking, which is changing. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 02:59:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA20904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:59:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20899 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 02:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA22857; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:59:45 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:01:49 GMT Message-ID: <355e6101.3040338@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199805160357.WAA15606@dyson.iquest.net> In-Reply-To: <199805160357.WAA15606@dyson.iquest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id CAA20900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 15 May 1998 22:57:38 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" wrote: >When GPLed parts of the system have to be hacked on, it is >understood apriori that the work will not be a part of the >competitive advantage ... (I do like hacking on GCC and stuff, >but know that any potential competitive advantage is lost Some in management believe that competitive advantage must include trade secrets. But the truth is that superior customer service is far more powerful in gaining competitive advantage. That's why I believe that limitations of the GPL are mostly imaginary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 04:07:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29484 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 04:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA29477 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 04:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11600; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:07:31 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA01543; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:07:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980516130729.30106@follo.net> Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:07:29 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) References: <199805160454.WAA24796@narnia.plutotech.com> <355d5c06.1764517@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <355d5c06.1764517@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Sat, May 16, 1998 at 09:41:10AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 16, 1998 at 09:41:10AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > >The code we are "hiding" you wouldn't want to touch anyway and most of > >it is userland code that would not be subject to licensing restrictions > >anyway. > > Then there's little real basis for objection to the GPL. You're wrong. If you read that more carefully, you'll see that it says "most of it is userland code". Some of it is not. Of the part that is not, most (of what I've got at least) are things you wouldn't use, unless you're developing an _exact_ clone of our product. These include different performance tradeoffs compared to the stock kernel ("OK, I'll slow down _this_ part 10 times in favour of _that_ abuse of the driver working correctly"), and a different filesystem layout to make it more difficult for people to copy parts of our product and incorporate it as part of their own. If I didn't have the assurance that I _can_ choose to do have some of these things private, I wouldn't have gone with FreeBSD for this product in the first place (and the product might never have been made at all). Another issue of the GPL is how a GPLed kernel extend to LKMs and userland programs. I know Linus don't want it to cover LKMs/usrland, but I don't think this issue have been fought in court yet. It would be interesting to see what would happen if e.g. Microsoft get some code in the Linux kernel, and then try to sue a competitor for not releasing source to their products. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 04:12:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00744 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 04:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA00650 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 04:11:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11924; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:11:59 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA01562; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:11:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980516131158.03409@follo.net> Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:11:58 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: John Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) References: <199805160357.WAA15606@dyson.iquest.net> <355e6101.3040338@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <355e6101.3040338@mail.cetlink.net>; from John Kelly on Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:01:49AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:01:49AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > On Fri, 15 May 1998 22:57:38 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" > wrote: > > >When GPLed parts of the system have to be hacked on, it is > >understood apriori that the work will not be a part of the > >competitive advantage ... (I do like hacking on GCC and stuff, > >but know that any potential competitive advantage is lost > > Some in management believe that competitive advantage must include > trade secrets. But the truth is that superior customer service is far > more powerful in gaining competitive advantage. That's why I believe > that limitations of the GPL are mostly imaginary. Then the GPL people should ask themselves: Do we want a world where success isn't determined by technical excellence at all, but by 'customer service' (mostly handholding) and marketing _only_? I know that I don't want such a world. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 04:24:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA01558 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 04:24:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA01519 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 04:24:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01063; Sat, 16 May 1998 06:24:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805161124.GAA01063@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-Reply-To: <355e6101.3040338@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "May 16, 98 10:01:49 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:24:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly said: > On Fri, 15 May 1998 22:57:38 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" > wrote: > > >When GPLed parts of the system have to be hacked on, it is > >understood apriori that the work will not be a part of the > >competitive advantage ... (I do like hacking on GCC and stuff, > >but know that any potential competitive advantage is lost > > Some in management believe that competitive advantage must include > trade secrets. But the truth is that superior customer service is far > more powerful in gaining competitive advantage. That's why I believe > that limitations of the GPL are mostly imaginary. > Superior customer service is supported by utilizing competitive advantage and having control of ones own inventive ability. In fact, it is likely that one who can exploit one's own abilities effectively is going to be able to invest more in a code base. Having the value of ones own creative abilities immediately diluted by excessively intrusive licenses only decreases the motivation to use that ability on a code base, and causes one to seek another code base to work with. One feasable way for "support" to fund development is to overcharge excessively for it (and that situation happens, but smart, non-bureacratic companies see that pretty quickly.) If superior customer service includes product that you can afford to invest more into because you can keep control of some of your inventions, then I can agree with you. If superior customer service includes your ability to exploit support on the net also, that is even better. With free licenses (as opposed to GPL) you have the ability to both control your own ideas, *and* also cooperate with net support. With free licenses there are effective motivations to contribute ideas back to the code base, without strong legal requirements. (Again, I am speaking of code that has an adequate critical mass, like FreeBSD... Smaller projects need stronger terms at first, but not something like GPL, where it is almost impossible to free the code once the project is strong enough.) With licenses that immediately condemn your ideas to the public, big support houses can gain control over your inventions by their inherently powerful marketing abilities, and leave you out in the cold. In the best case, their stronger marketing (but not necessarily development abilities) can actually manipulate you into becoming a subcontractor for them. (This senario almost happened at work, and my mgmt was aware enough of the situation to stop it.) "Little" people can be manipulated in the support senario as easily as any other. Additionally, almost all of the concerns about big companies "hoarding" BSD-like licensed software with critical mass are null and void. Every company that I have been involved with using BSD-like licensed software has relatively freely contributed back to the code base, with only few conditions. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 05:06:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06317 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:06:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06275 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:06:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03326; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:06:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805161206.HAA03326@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-Reply-To: <355d5c06.1764517@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "May 16, 98 09:41:10 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:06:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: gibbs@narnia.plutotech.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly said: > > > >The truth of the matter is, the hiding rarely happens. > > If so, then the GPL works just as well, "encumbrances" and all. > Actually, you miss the point that the hiding that happens, is usually stuff that would be encumbered by GPL, interesting only to competitors, and not to the net community at large. This is a terrible disadvantage of using a GPL encumbered codebase. The forcing function of GPL is superfluous when you consider that there are already other factors that cause people and companies to feed code back to the free codebase. On FreeBSD, we have more offers of code than we can deal with, and most of those are from commercially or research supported development. The assertions that GPL is doing good by forcing release of source code under certain circumstances is a straw-man, since it happens much of the time anyway. Additionally, it is a burden, because the *choice* of freeing code is lost, and smart developers developing derived works a-priori understand this and avoid the GPLed codebase entirely, if the GPL will force the release of hard-fought ideas. > > There is no doubt in my mind that we simply would not have > >been able to get our product to market as quickly as we did if we did > >not go the embedded UNIX route. What made it possible to go this way? > >Licensing terms that didn't scare our lawyers off > > It's sad there are executives who don't know how to take charge of > their own lawyers. OTOH, there are plenty of lawyers who can work > with the GPL to produce an equivalent result. > The executives do, they have actually researched the limitations of GPL, and are not biased towards or against GPL. The purpose of a lawyer in this case is to interpret the license, and to explain what the various ramifications of the license are. One can choose to ignore those limitations, and limit one's business opportunities. In the case of CDROM duplicators, or those who mostly exploit net inventiveness, the limitations of GPL are minor. When adding new ideas to codebases, GPL limits opportunity to capitalize on them. I happen to respect and encourage inventiveness, and enjoy it when someone can exploit their own abilities. I am less impressed with those who believe that they have to exploit other's abilities, and want to make sure the flow of information is guaranteed towards them, without paying for the cost of creativity. > >The code we are "hiding" you wouldn't want to touch anyway and most of > >it is userland code that would not be subject to licensing restrictions > >anyway. > > Then there's little real basis for objection to the GPL. > Again, most of the stuff that isn't fed back to the net is part of the competitive advantage. GPL denies that ability to control those parts of the work, and is a severe disincentive create derived works from a GPLed codebase. > >We could hide things like CAM, but what is the incentive? > > More support for the GPL. If there is no incentive to hide, why > object to license terms which prohibit hiding? > Hide what? Under GPL, those things that are useful to be controlled by the creator are just as encumbered as those things that are less useful. The cool thing about free licenses is that important things for the net community at large are added back in, while there is still control for those pieces that are perhaps interesting to competition (like big support firms that can and will steal your business away.) > > >By releasing the code into the community, we get far greater test > >coverage than we could internally and increase the pool of developers > >that can maintain the code. > > Sounds like GPL to me. > That sounds like BSD-like licensing in this case also. See, the big boogie man of people stealing code away is non-operative in the case of popular BSD licensed code, so the GPL encumberances are unneeded and really have no purpose, other than making a political point by restricting control of creative derived works. > > >You don't need to force business to share. > > OTOH, why do business need to hide? > Competitive advantage. I love this kind of argument: why do you need private property? > > >A solution to what problem? Pluto would have gone with an RTOS if the > >licensing terms didn't work out, so in my opinion, you either get what > >the corparate users decide to contribute back, or you get nothing at all. > > True, but that's a result of traditional corporate management and > thinking, which is changing. > It is, and they are opening up to the BSD license. The only reason why GPL has made inroads is because of advocacy. The freely licensed code is also making equivalent inroads. You seem to miss the point that there is free code and GPL code. GPL costs future developers alot of the benefits of their creativity. Since smart developers and strategic thinkers realize these limitations, they'll always avoid that code for future significant contribution. Those who know they won't add much to GPL'ed code have little reason to avoid it. I used GPL'ed code every day, but also don't contribute to it, because I get paid more for working on "likely to be freed" software. It makes sense, because the work that I do is seamlessly both commercial and free. There is no reason why non-GPL free software and commercial software for profit cannot cooperate, and in fact that IS the wave of the future. GPL just complicates matters with unnecessary control and restriction of control of derived creative works. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 05:08:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06572 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:08:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06562 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03332; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:07:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805161207.HAA03332@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-Reply-To: <19980516131158.03409@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 16, 98 01:11:58 pm" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:07:49 -0500 (EST) Cc: jak@cetlink.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund said: > On Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:01:49AM +0000, John Kelly wrote: > > On Fri, 15 May 1998 22:57:38 -0500 (EST), "John S. Dyson" > > wrote: > > > > >When GPLed parts of the system have to be hacked on, it is > > >understood apriori that the work will not be a part of the > > >competitive advantage ... (I do like hacking on GCC and stuff, > > >but know that any potential competitive advantage is lost > > > > Some in management believe that competitive advantage must include > > trade secrets. But the truth is that superior customer service is far > > more powerful in gaining competitive advantage. That's why I believe > > that limitations of the GPL are mostly imaginary. > > Then the GPL people should ask themselves: Do we want a world where > success isn't determined by technical excellence at all, but by > 'customer service' (mostly handholding) and marketing _only_? > > I know that I don't want such a world. > Don't we already have a marketing only world mostly anyway (Microsoft?) Big support companies can be and are just as predatory as big software houses like Microsoft. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 05:09:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06836 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:09:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06831 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 05:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03337; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:09:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805161209.HAA03337@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-Reply-To: <19980516130729.30106@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 16, 98 01:07:29 pm" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 07:09:48 -0500 (EST) Cc: jak@cetlink.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund said: > > Another issue of the GPL is how a GPLed kernel extend to LKMs and > userland programs. I know Linus don't want it to cover LKMs/usrland, > but I don't think this issue have been fought in court yet. It would > be interesting to see what would happen if e.g. Microsoft get some > code in the Linux kernel, and then try to sue a competitor for not > releasing source to their products. > Linus added the relief after the code was released under GPL with other peoples contributions incorporated. That is a very iffy thing, and I don't think that he can really give such relief. (It isn't clear that he even "owns" the kernel.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 09:23:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04018 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:23:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04007 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09892; Sat, 16 May 1998 10:23:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805161623.KAA09892@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) cc: "Justin T. Gibbs" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 16 May 1998 09:41:10 GMT." <355d5c06.1764517@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:18:59 -0600 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>> I like an "encumbrance" which prohibits others from hiding the source >>> code of derivative works. >> >>The truth of the matter is, the hiding rarely happens. > >If so, then the GPL works just as well, "encumbrances" and all. No, the GPL removes choice. My point is that in most cases, a company will choose to release the code they developed to the community, but if denied the choice to keep some portions of the code proprietary, they will simply go off and buy a commercial solution instead. Rarely does the "free" part matter. The company wants to use the most flexible and powerful solution. Part of FreeBSD's charm is that its license is almost as easy to deal with as that of a commercial product, and its quality is often better. Consider also the ease with which we can release our code. We don't have to worry about ensuring that with every minor bug fix release we update our ftp site. We don't have to publicize where the code is. We don't have to ensure that the code is available for 3 years even if the company goes under. Ken and I can simply stick the code up for download somewhere, post a message about it, and forgo the legal liability the GPL would bring. >> There is no doubt in my mind that we simply would not have >>been able to get our product to market as quickly as we did if we did >>not go the embedded UNIX route. What made it possible to go this way? >>Licensing terms that didn't scare our lawyers off > >It's sad there are executives who don't know how to take charge of >their own lawyers. OTOH, there are plenty of lawyers who can work >with the GPL to produce an equivalent result. Sit down with two lawyers and have them both interpret the GPL for you. Both will have a slightly different take on it. The license is large and complex. If you are an executive and are told that this "infective" license may remove your rights to in-house developed intellectual property and force you to provide your technology to competitors, you aren't going to choose a more flexible solution? Giving away intellectual property for free doesn't earn the company any money. >>The code we are "hiding" you wouldn't want to touch anyway and most of >>it is userland code that would not be subject to licensing restrictions >>anyway. > >Then there's little real basis for objection to the GPL. Just because you wouldn't want to touch it, doesn't mean that our competitors would not gain by seeing it. The code adds nothing to generic FreeBSD. >>We could hide things like CAM, but what is the incentive? > >More support for the GPL. If there is no incentive to hide, why >object to license terms which prohibit hiding? In the case of CAM, this is more of a personal issue for me. Ken and I are allowed to set our own licensing terms on that code. At least for me, I want CAM to be used by the widest possible audience, and the GPL would prevent a commercial entity from incorporating that code into their product. The GPL simply isn't free enough to suite my goals. This is one of the reasons I start laughing at GPL arguments like, "Well what if MS 'steals' the code and puts it into it's product". You can't steal something the "owner" wants to give away. >>By releasing the code into the community, we get far greater test >>coverage than we could internally and increase the pool of developers >>that can maintain the code. > >Sounds like GPL to me. No. It's a company making the choice to release its intellectual property to the extent it benefits the company, not because of some silly license. >>You don't need to force business to share. > >OTOH, why do business need to hide? Hmmm. So if Pluto gave away all of it's hardware and software designs to a competitor, don't you think they might have a better chance of competing with us? Business isn't like kindergarten. >>A solution to what problem? Pluto would have gone with an RTOS if the >>licensing terms didn't work out, so in my opinion, you either get what >>the corparate users decide to contribute back, or you get nothing at all. > >True, but that's a result of traditional corporate management and >thinking, which is changing. I'd like to see some concrete proof of this using a business other than a software distributer like Red Hat. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 13:27:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01134 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01126 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 13:27:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id WAA22588; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:27:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:26:59 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <199805151722.KAA23856@kithrup.com> <19980516110820.W1953@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 16 May 1998 22:26:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Sat, 16 May 1998 11:08:20 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > If anybody's interested, snoop around a bit in pdp11.lemis.com. The > user 'guest' has the password '2.11BSD', at least for a couple of > days. Nice IP number you picked :) but I get "no route to host" (traceroute stops at freebie.lemis.com with !H) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 14:42:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12489 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 14:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12474 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 14:42:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (algae30.verinet.com [199.45.181.126]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA18166; Sat, 16 May 1998 15:41:43 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11305; Mon, 22 Jun 1925 01:22:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1925 01:22:21 -0700 (MST) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <192506220822.BAA11305@const.> To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Nice IP number you picked :) but I get "no route to host" (traceroute > stops at freebie.lemis.com with !H) Same here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 17:16:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00342 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 17:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00268 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 17:15:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02850; Sun, 17 May 1998 09:45:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980517094459.C346@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:44:59 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: allen campbell , dag-erli@ifi.uio.no Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <192506220822.BAA11305@const.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <192506220822.BAA11305@const.>; from allen campbell on Sat, May 16, 1998 at 02:42:07PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 May 1998 at 14:42:07 -0700, allen campbell wrote: >> Nice IP number you picked :) but I get "no route to host" (traceroute >> stops at freebie.lemis.com with !H) > > Same here. Sorry. I took the machines down for rebuilding, and forgot to reboot the 11. Things should be fine now. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 16 20:53:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:53:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26383; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from newman.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26317; Sat, 16 May 1998 21:52:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:52:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805170352.VAA26317@softweyr.com> Subject: Fastest ISA ethernet card? From: Wes Peters To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, net@FreeBSD.ORG X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.5 (TrialWare) X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm trolling for recommendations for a faster ethernet card for a 486 dx2/66 system. This system is being 'sidegraded' to a server, and the NE2000 in it is pretty poky. Please review your experiences with 10Base-T cards for FreeBSD on the ISA bus. Thanks in advance. (Yes, I've searched the archives, and am a victim of our success. Far too many messages, most of which have nothing to do with the performance of 10Base-T ISA cards. Grin.) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr Softweyr llc mailto:wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message