From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 01:44:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22718 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from couatl.uchicago.edu (couatl.uchicago.edu [128.135.21.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22700; Sun, 17 May 1998 01:43:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sfarrell@couatl.uchicago.edu) Received: (from sfarrell@localhost) by couatl.uchicago.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09504; Sun, 17 May 1998 03:43:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from sfarrell) To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, net@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fastest ISA ethernet card? References: <199805170352.VAA26317@softweyr.com> From: sfarrell@farrell.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 17 May 1998 03:43:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Sat, 16 May 1998 21:52:50 -0600 (MDT)" Message-ID: <873ee9thhh.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > I'm trolling for recommendations for a faster ethernet card for > a 486 dx2/66 system. This system is being 'sidegraded' to a > server, and the NE2000 in it is pretty poky. Please review your > experiences with 10Base-T cards for FreeBSD on the ISA bus. I'm under the impression that SMC made very good ISA boards... -- Steve Farrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 06:26:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21075 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 06:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21052; Sun, 17 May 1998 06:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0.Beta7/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id PAA14305; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:26:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id MAA14252; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:51:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980517125159.A14234@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:51:59 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, net@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fastest ISA ethernet card? Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, net@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199805170352.VAA26317@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <199805170352.VAA26317@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sat, May 16, 1998 at 09:52:50PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4293 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Wes Peters: > server, and the NE2000 in it is pretty poky. Please review your > experiences with 10Base-T cards for FreeBSD on the ISA bus. I have good experience with both WDC Ultra and 3COM 3c509 cards. ed0 at 0x300-0x31f irq 10 maddr 0xb0000 msize 16384 on isa ed0: address 00:00:c0:7c:66:48, type WD8013EPC (16 bit) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #59: Wed May 6 00:22:36 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 07:00:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24047 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 07:00:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from firewall.ftf.dk (root@mail.ftf.dk [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24038; Sun, 17 May 1998 07:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk) Received: from mail.prosa.dk ([192.168.100.2]) by firewall.ftf.dk (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16041; Sun, 17 May 1998 18:00:47 +0200 Received: from deepo.prosa.dk (deepo.prosa.dk [192.168.100.10]) by mail.prosa.dk (8.8.5/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) with ESMTP id QAA14284; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:24:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by deepo.prosa.dk (8.8.7/8.8.5/prosa-1.1) id PAA13653; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:59:49 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19980517155949.03479@deepo.prosa.dk> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:59:49 +0200 From: Philippe Regnauld To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, net@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fastest ISA ethernet card? References: <199805170352.VAA26317@softweyr.com> <19980517125159.A14234@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980517125159.A14234@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:51:59PM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Organization: PROSA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert writes: > > I have good experience with both WDC Ultra and 3COM 3c509 cards. > > ed0 at 0x300-0x31f irq 10 maddr 0xb0000 msize 16384 on isa > ed0: address 00:00:c0:7c:66:48, type WD8013EPC (16 bit) The WD8013 is AKA SMC Elite. I get 930 KByes/s on these (ftp session). -- -[ Philippe Regnauld / sysadmin / regnauld@deepo.prosa.dk / +55.4N +11.3E ]- «Pluto placed his bad dog at the entrance of Hades to keep the dead IN and the living OUT! The archetypical corporate firewall?» - S. Kelly Bootle To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 12:33:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04471 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id MAA15258; Sun, 17 May 1998 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) In-Reply-To: <19980516110820.W1953@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 16 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >If anybody's interested, snoop around a bit in pdp11.lemis.com. The >user 'guest' has the password '2.11BSD', at least for a couple of >days. > >Greg >-- This box is way cool. We should keep at around, that way when people cry "FreeBSD doesn't see my ProTurboTechXYZ video/sound card" we just point them to pdp11 "good old days" machine. Check this out: $ /sbin/dmesg phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1648064 user mem = 307200 $ ls -l /unix -rwxr--r-- 1 root 146289 Mar 6 20:19 /unix $ This is compared to: shell6: {1001} dmesg real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes) avail memory = 121163776 (118324K bytes) shell6: {1003} ls -l /kernel -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8381723 Mar 27 23:26 /kernel shell6: {1004} -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 13:16:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11482 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uop.cs.uop.edu ([138.9.200.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11418 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bford@uop.cs.uop.edu) Received: from heather (user206.pop2.cwia.com [209.142.32.206]) by uop.cs.uop.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00636 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 13:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <002001bd81d0$aaff9860$0100a8c0@heather.my.domain> From: "Bret Ford" To: Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:16:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This PDP-11 box brings back some memories. I'm 24 now. When I was a little person (about 5, I think), I played "Hunt the Wumpus" on a PDP-11/34 many, many times. I remember it having a large, white-ish removable drive that was changed periodically. It had 256K of RAM, and cost University of the Pacific $75,000 at the time. Those 9-track tapes were cool! :-) Bret Ford To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 14:17:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19757 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19542 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA06051; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA03653; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 17:16:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Bret Ford cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-Reply-To: <002001bd81d0$aaff9860$0100a8c0@heather.my.domain> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quite funny. I played hunt the wumpus when I was 11 (I'm a little older), although it was on a PRIME 350. Granted it's not a PDP, but I wonder how many people started out with this game? Dan On Sun, 17 May 1998, Bret Ford wrote: > This PDP-11 box brings back some memories. I'm 24 now. When > I was a little person (about 5, I think), I played "Hunt the Wumpus" > on a PDP-11/34 many, many times. I remember it having a > large, white-ish removable drive that was changed periodically. > It had 256K of RAM, and cost University of the Pacific $75,000 > at the time. > > Those 9-track tapes were cool! :-) > > Bret Ford > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 15:06:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27785 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:06:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27653 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:06:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA06066 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA03713 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 17:26:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: X11R6 XTerm fixed annoyments Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org With the latest X11R6 with 2.2.6, my dark colored xterms look like total CRAP. So I worked these out and am offering them for general consumption. I have them in my .Xresources file. Give 'em a whirl. You get useful colors for bold, underline and highlight, 2000 lines of scroll back, better fonts, green cursor, red pointer, dark blue background, yadda, yadda... XTerm*saveLines: 2000 XTerm*scrollLines: 12 XTerm*Scrollbar*thickness: 7 XTerm*scrollBar: true XTerm*scrollTtyOutput: true XTerm*scrollKey: false XTerm*cursorColor: green XTerm*pointerColor: red XTerm*reverseVideo: true XTerm*background: #000050 XTerm*foreground: #dfdfdf XTerm*colorMode: true XTerm*colorBDMode: on XTerm*colorULMode: on XTerm*colorAttrMode: true XTerm*colorBD: yellow XTerm*colorUL: green XTerm*highlightColor: brown XTerm*font: -b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-12-*-100-100-m-*-iso8859-* XTerm*VT100*font1: -b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-8-*-100-100-m-*-iso8859-* XTerm*VT100*font2: -b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-10-*-100-100-m-*-iso8859-* XTerm*VT100*font3: -b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-12-*-100-100-m-*-iso8859-* XTerm*VT100*font4: -b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-15-*-100-100-m-*-iso8859-* XTerm*VT100*font5: -b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-18-*-100-100-m-*-iso8859-* XTerm*VT100*font6: -b&h-lucidatypewriter-medium-r-normal-sans-26-*-100-100-m-*-iso8859-* (watch your mail reader, or my composer, that the font lines don't get split up). Dan -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 15:12:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29219 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA29002 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:11:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from ringhorni.ifi.uio.no (2602@ringhorni.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.75]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA27147; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:41:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by ringhorni.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:41:05 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 17 May 1998 23:41:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jan B. Koum "'s message of "Sun, 17 May 1998 12:32:58 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jan B. Koum " writes: > shell6: {1001} dmesg > real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes) > avail memory = 121163776 (118324K bytes) > shell6: {1003} ls -l /kernel > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8381723 Mar 27 23:26 /kernel WTF? How did you manage to build an 8-meg kernel? -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 16:01:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10058 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09975 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id QAA10811; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:01:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:01:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id QAA10000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is my ISP's kernel. I think they have bunch of debug stuff in the kernel though. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On 17 May 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: >"Jan B. Koum " writes: >> shell6: {1001} dmesg >> real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes) >> avail memory = 121163776 (118324K bytes) >> shell6: {1003} ls -l /kernel >> -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8381723 Mar 27 23:26 /kernel > >WTF? How did you manage to build an 8-meg kernel? > >-- >Noone else has a .sig like this one. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 16:37:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15971 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15878 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-78.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.78]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA24995 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 18:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA18388 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 18:13:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805172313.SAA18388@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: commercial software (definitive) In-reply-to: Message from jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) of "Sat, 16 May 1998 09:41:10 GMT." <355d5c06.1764517@mail.cetlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 18:13:15 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly writes: > > It's sad there are executives who don't know how to take charge of > their own lawyers. Really? If one is going to pay a lawyer then one really should follow that advice else find another lawyer. Last thing you want is a lawyer who tells you anything you want to hear, because *then* you'll find out how good he/she is on court. > OTOH, there are plenty of lawyers who can work > with the GPL to produce an equivalent result. Those lawyers are already working to defend Microsoft. Possibly because they told management anything management wanted to hear. However, why bother to pay lawyers to "produce an equivalent result" with GPL when it can be done lawyer-free with BSD? Somebody must have a GPL fixation to even bother. Or some other social agenda. > >The code we are "hiding" you wouldn't want to touch anyway and most of > >it is userland code that would not be subject to licensing restrictions > >anyway. > > Then there's little real basis for objection to the GPL. Somebody's trolling for flames? Technology, advancement of: step by step advances which are the foundations of the next step advancing technology. At some point each step becomes public domain. Our patent system provides for exclusive use of a newly discovered technological advance in order for the inventor to possibly recover costs of the invention, and possibly reap profits from the invention. In exchange, a full disclosure of the invention goes on public record and the invention becomes public domain after 20 years. One doesn't *have* to patent an invention. One has that choice up to one year after its first public demonstration. Do I have to say the "new" invention is built upon "old" inventions? To me, the *BSD license is a mirror of our free enterprise economy. One can build upon the prior inventions. And chose after the invention whether to give it away in source and/or binary, sell it, rent it, etc. Its all about the inventor's freedom to chose. And the radical concept (which some can't swallow) that one could/should own the results of their own labor even if its based on the labor of others. GPL is a mirror of another economic system. One where "everyone" owns everything. Once your invention is discovered the "state" claims it as their own for the public good. Its not your choice (unless nobody finds out.) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 16:37:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16029 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15900 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:36:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id TAA06199; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA04572; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 19:36:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sometimes I think that the profusion of acronyms can increase the humorous impact of things. I didn't get the 'WTF' immediately, but it had an all at once laugh at the moment of realization. > >> -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8381723 Mar 27 23:26 /kernel > > > >WTF? How did you manage to build an 8-meg kernel? > > Dan -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 17:20:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23941 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23818 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA02959; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:49:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980518094950.C427@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:49:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) References: <19980516110820.W1953@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:32:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 May 1998 at 12:32:58 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > On Sat, 16 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> If anybody's interested, snoop around a bit in pdp11.lemis.com. The >> user 'guest' has the password '2.11BSD', at least for a couple of >> days. > > This box is way cool. We should keep at around, that way when > people cry "FreeBSD doesn't see my ProTurboTechXYZ video/sound card" we > just point them to pdp11 "good old days" machine. Right, I intend to keep it around. > Check this out: > > $ /sbin/dmesg > phys mem = 2097152 > avail mem = 1648064 > user mem = 307200 > $ ls -l /unix > -rwxr--r-- 1 root 146289 Mar 6 20:19 /unix > $ > > This is compared to: > > shell6: {1001} dmesg > real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes) > avail memory = 121163776 (118324K bytes) > shell6: {1003} ls -l /kernel > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8381723 Mar 27 23:26 /kernel > shell6: {1004} In fact, the memory size is a *big* restriction for 2.11BSD. Unlike the Seventh Edition, it contains complete networking code (obviously), and it only survives at all by having a relatively complex overlay system. Even so, a large number of utilities just won't fit. Forget just about anything GNU. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 19:57:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16042 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16015 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 19:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28192; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:56:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <355FA36F.900A960@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:56:47 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Janowski CC: Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Janowski wrote: > > Quite funny. I played hunt the wumpus when I was 11 (I'm > a little older), although it was on a PRIME 350. Granted > it's not a PDP, but I wonder how many people started > out with this game? Me too. On a TI-99/4a. My first "computer game" was "Jump-Hole Gunner" on a TI-59 programmable calculator. It even had audio: you could listen to the program run on an AM radio tuned between stations. I once had a flight crew member on a United 727 ask me to turn off my calculator; I was making their VOR wander erratically. But now I've dated myself, haven't I? This was my frosh year in college. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 20:05:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17766 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:05:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17714 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 20:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28207; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:04:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <355FA555.9F9CBD5A@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:04:53 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Janowski CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X11R6 XTerm fixed annoyments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For those of you who prefer dark characters on a light background, try these changes: > XTerm*cursorColor: purple2 > XTerm*pointerColor: purple2 > XTerm*reverseVideo: false > XTerm*background: grey85 > XTerm*foreground: purple4 > XTerm*colorMode: true > XTerm*colorBDMode: on > XTerm*colorULMode: on > XTerm*colorAttrMode: true > XTerm*colorBD: purple2 > XTerm*colorUL: blue2 > XTerm*highlightColor: grey70 If you don't like purple so much, reverse all of the purple and blue entries. I find this one quite soothing. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 21:17:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28458 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28451 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:17:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA06479; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA05884; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:17:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Wes Peters cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X11R6 XTerm fixed annoyments In-Reply-To: <355FA555.9F9CBD5A@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I got away from light backgrounds for three reasons: 1. I don't like looking into a light bulb 2. More electrons hitting the phosphors generating more light output would seem to generate more UV and X-ray and whatever else leaks (or radiates) out of these tupbes we stare at. 3. I seem to experience less eye fatigue. Dan On Sun, 17 May 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > For those of you who prefer dark characters on a light background, > try these changes: > > > > XTerm*cursorColor: purple2 > > XTerm*pointerColor: purple2 > > XTerm*reverseVideo: false > > XTerm*background: grey85 > > XTerm*foreground: purple4 > > XTerm*colorMode: true > > XTerm*colorBDMode: on > > XTerm*colorULMode: on > > XTerm*colorAttrMode: true > > XTerm*colorBD: purple2 > > XTerm*colorUL: blue2 > > XTerm*highlightColor: grey70 > > If you don't like purple so much, reverse all of the purple and blue > entries. I find this one quite soothing. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 21:20:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28823 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:20:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28807 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA06486; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA05891; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:20:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Wes Peters cc: Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-Reply-To: <355FA36F.900A960@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I used to work on old SGI 3130's and when those geometry engines were really working, you could hear some very high pitched harmonic sounds eminating from the box, seemingly right from the chips, although this was difficult to confirm. Where did the days of lights and sounds go? Dan On Sun, 17 May 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > Dan Janowski wrote: > > > > Quite funny. I played hunt the wumpus when I was 11 (I'm > > a little older), although it was on a PRIME 350. Granted > > it's not a PDP, but I wonder how many people started > > out with this game? > > Me too. On a TI-99/4a. > > My first "computer game" was "Jump-Hole Gunner" on a TI-59 > programmable calculator. It even had audio: you could listen > to the program run on an AM radio tuned between stations. I > once had a flight crew member on a United 727 ask me to turn > off my calculator; I was making their VOR wander erratically. > But now I've dated myself, haven't I? This was my frosh > year in college. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 21:22:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29032 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29023 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28366; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:22:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <355FB76C.22850631@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:22:04 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Janowski CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: X11R6 XTerm fixed annoyments References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Janowski wrote: > > I got away from light backgrounds for three reasons: > > 1. I don't like looking into a light bulb > 2. More electrons hitting the phosphors > generating more light output would seem to > generate more UV and X-ray and whatever else leaks > (or radiates) out of these tupbes we stare at. > 3. I seem to experience less eye fatigue. That's the reason I posted my differences - peoples eyes react differently to such situations. I've found my eyes less bothered by using a moderately light background with dark, contrasting letters, keeping the contrast on the monitor turned somewhat low, and keeping the room moderately dark. I also cannot stand flourescent lights in almost any setting. Thanks for helping out. XTerm settings are something few people delve into much, but are a big part of creating an ergnomic work environment on UNIX. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 21:27:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29949 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:27:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29885 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:27:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28376; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:27:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <355FB8AD.E2779CDB@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:27:25 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Janowski CC: Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Janowski wrote: > > I used to work on old SGI 3130's and when those > geometry engines were really working, you could hear > some very high pitched harmonic sounds eminating > from the box, seemingly right from the chips, > although this was difficult to confirm. I cut my 3D teeth on a 4D/60GT, later upgraded to a 4D/70. The funny high pitched noise actually came from the capacitors in the power supply; the current draw of the Geometry Pipeline would pull enough current through them to start the squeal. I helped install these machines in South Dakota; on cold (COLD COLD COLD!) winter days we would come into work, take our shoes off, and fire up the 'drip' demo to warm our toes and ankles. The 4D's had an 18-inch long squirrel-cage fan that would blow 180F air when the drip demo was running. ;^) > Where did the days of lights and sounds go? Sad, isn't it? No more blinkenlights. The actual hardware is becoming a complete mystery, not only to the users, but to most of the programmers. That's what the 'Dumming down of programming' article mentioned here a couple of days ago was lamenting. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 21:51:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02896 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:51:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02864 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA06542; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA06028; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:51:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Wes Peters cc: Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-Reply-To: <355FB8AD.E2779CDB@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Aaah, the caps, eh? I also worked on 80GTs. I once had to fix one of those squirrel cage fans at 2:00am (yes fix). In the cool eves of the summer, when I was still in shorts from the day I would sit on the machines while they were rendering to keep warm. Fond memories. Every see a PVS? It is (was) an IBM box with 32 i860 procs and 1GB mem. GREAT lights. 3 phase power necessary. Oooh, heat. An array of HiPPI disks that would do a little dance (little) when playing uncompressed 2K movies on the HD monitor. Now a dodo (sp?), bird that is. Dan On Sun, 17 May 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > I cut my 3D teeth on a 4D/60GT, later upgraded to a 4D/70. The > funny high pitched noise actually came from the capacitors in the > power supply; the current draw of the Geometry Pipeline would pull > enough current through them to start the squeal. I helped install > these machines in South Dakota; on cold (COLD COLD COLD!) winter > days we would come into work, take our shoes off, and fire up the > 'drip' demo to warm our toes and ankles. The 4D's had an 18-inch > long squirrel-cage fan that would blow 180F air when the drip demo > was running. ;^) > > > Where did the days of lights and sounds go? > > Sad, isn't it? No more blinkenlights. The actual hardware is becoming > a complete mystery, not only to the users, but to most of the programmers. > That's what the 'Dumming down of programming' article mentioned here > a couple of days ago was lamenting. > > -- -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 22:11:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05937 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:11:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05924 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:11:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA05375; Mon, 18 May 1998 14:40:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980518144056.A5363@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:40:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , Dan Janowski Cc: Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <355FB8AD.E2779CDB@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <355FB8AD.E2779CDB@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:27:25PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 May 1998 at 22:27:25 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Dan Janowski wrote: >> >> I used to work on old SGI 3130's and when those >> geometry engines were really working, you could hear >> some very high pitched harmonic sounds eminating >> from the box, seemingly right from the chips, >> although this was difficult to confirm. > > I cut my 3D teeth on a 4D/60GT, later upgraded to a 4D/70. The > funny high pitched noise actually came from the capacitors in the > power supply; the current draw of the Geometry Pipeline would pull > enough current through them to start the squeal. I helped install > these machines in South Dakota; on cold (COLD COLD COLD!) winter > days we would come into work, take our shoes off, and fire up the > 'drip' demo to warm our toes and ankles. The 4D's had an 18-inch > long squirrel-cage fan that would blow 180F air when the drip demo > was running. ;^) I was offered one of those a couple of years ago. Quite an impressive machine. I took a 4D/20 instead (I think. It's a Control Data OEM version, and the name written on it is "Cyber 910". R3000, about 20 MHz, 16 MB of memory, IRIX 5.3. I've compared building software on it and on a P5/133. You can build bash on the P5 in about 90 seconds, on the 4D/20 it takes 40 minutes :-( Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 22:15:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06468 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:15:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06377 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28613; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:14:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <355FC3BE.5F9C8BAB@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:14:39 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Dan Janowski , Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <355FB8AD.E2779CDB@softweyr.com> <19980518144056.A5363@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sun, 17 May 1998 at 22:27:25 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Dan Janowski wrote: > >> > >> I used to work on old SGI 3130's and when those > >> geometry engines were really working, you could hear > >> some very high pitched harmonic sounds eminating > >> from the box, seemingly right from the chips, > >> although this was difficult to confirm. > > > > I cut my 3D teeth on a 4D/60GT, later upgraded to a 4D/70. The > > funny high pitched noise actually came from the capacitors in the > > power supply; the current draw of the Geometry Pipeline would pull > > enough current through them to start the squeal. I helped install > > these machines in South Dakota; on cold (COLD COLD COLD!) winter > > days we would come into work, take our shoes off, and fire up the > > 'drip' demo to warm our toes and ankles. The 4D's had an 18-inch > > long squirrel-cage fan that would blow 180F air when the drip demo > > was running. ;^) > > I was offered one of those a couple of years ago. Quite an impressive > machine. I took a 4D/20 instead (I think. It's a Control Data OEM > version, and the name written on it is "Cyber 910". R3000, about 20 > MHz, 16 MB of memory, IRIX 5.3. I've compared building software on it > and on a P5/133. You can build bash on the P5 in about 90 seconds, on > the 4D/20 it takes 40 minutes :-( Yeah, but does your P5/133 have multi-player dogfight? I thought not. You should've taken the 4D/70. The 4D/20 (also known as the Personal Iris) had quite bit more CPU power -- the 4D/70 was a 12.5 Mhz R2000, but the 4D/70 had the full Geometry Pipeline engine, as opposed to the stripped-down video in the /20. Of course, you probably couldn't afford the power for the 4D/70, it required 220VAC and drew more power than an electric clothes dryer. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 22:18:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06867 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:18:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06858 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:18:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28630; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:17:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <355FC482.4B7D24DD@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:17:54 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Janowski CC: Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dan Janowski wrote: > > Aaah, the caps, eh? > > I also worked on 80GTs. I once had to > fix one of those squirrel cage fans at > 2:00am (yes fix). In the cool eves of the > summer, when I was still in shorts from > the day I would sit on the machines while > they were rendering to keep warm. > > Fond memories. > > Every see a PVS? It is (was) an IBM box > with 32 i860 procs and 1GB mem. GREAT lights. > 3 phase power necessary. Oooh, heat. An > array of HiPPI disks that would do a little > dance (little) when playing uncompressed 2K > movies on the HD monitor. Now a dodo (sp?), bird > that is. Nope. I got to see a preproduction 4D/280 at Silicon Graphics, when I went to take their 3D graphics course. I also once got to fondle the very first Pentium-based "Paragon" at Intel in Hillsboro. The computing world is a much less exciting place these days, with PC and "suits" seeming to run the world. Where's some good old scientific research, or a cool military project with 3-D graphics and enormous networks, when you need it? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 22:18:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06986 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06820 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA05439; Mon, 18 May 1998 14:47:19 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980518144719.N427@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:47:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: Dan Janowski , Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <355FB8AD.E2779CDB@softweyr.com> <19980518144056.A5363@freebie.lemis.com> <355FC3BE.5F9C8BAB@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <355FC3BE.5F9C8BAB@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:14:39PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 17 May 1998 at 23:14:39 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> On Sun, 17 May 1998 at 22:27:25 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >>> Dan Janowski wrote: >>>> >>>> I used to work on old SGI 3130's and when those >>>> geometry engines were really working, you could hear >>>> some very high pitched harmonic sounds eminating >>>> from the box, seemingly right from the chips, >>>> although this was difficult to confirm. >>> >>> I cut my 3D teeth on a 4D/60GT, later upgraded to a 4D/70. The >>> funny high pitched noise actually came from the capacitors in the >>> power supply; the current draw of the Geometry Pipeline would pull >>> enough current through them to start the squeal. I helped install >>> these machines in South Dakota; on cold (COLD COLD COLD!) winter >>> days we would come into work, take our shoes off, and fire up the >>> 'drip' demo to warm our toes and ankles. The 4D's had an 18-inch >>> long squirrel-cage fan that would blow 180F air when the drip demo >>> was running. ;^) >> >> I was offered one of those a couple of years ago. Quite an impressive >> machine. I took a 4D/20 instead (I think. It's a Control Data OEM >> version, and the name written on it is "Cyber 910". R3000, about 20 >> MHz, 16 MB of memory, IRIX 5.3. I've compared building software on it >> and on a P5/133. You can build bash on the P5 in about 90 seconds, on >> the 4D/20 it takes 40 minutes :-( > > Yeah, but does your P5/133 have multi-player dogfight? I thought not. > You should've taken the 4D/70. The 4D/20 (also known as the Personal > Iris) had quite bit more CPU power -- the 4D/70 was a 12.5 Mhz R2000, > but the 4D/70 had the full Geometry Pipeline engine, as opposed to > the stripped-down video in the /20. Of course, you probably couldn't > afford the power for the 4D/70, it required 220VAC and drew more power > than an electric clothes dryer. ;^) I thought about it, but I had two basic problems: 1. It was more money than I wanted to spend. 2. I didn't know how to get it in my car, especially as (for some strange reason) I already had a borzoi in there. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 17 22:43:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09778 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09762 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:43:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA05742 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:43:25 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id WAA28579 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:41:51 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-Reply-To: <19980518144719.N427@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wish I could share war stories with you guys. I can say this though. Your all insane! You are like motorcyclists who yearn for the days when they could not go anyware without a tool bag and a can of oil and then lament that, "they just don't build em like that anymore." :) I bet half of you subscribe to alt.hackers and write ObHacks first, and then read the group. Of course, I say all of this with just a touch of admiration. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 00:03:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA21568 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-2-44.stratos.net [207.86.132.108]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA21515 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id CAA06083; Mon, 18 May 1998 02:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980518021302.A6070@stratos.net> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 02:13:02 -0400 To: Dan Janowski Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dan Janowski on Sun, May 17, 1998 at 07:36:56PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 17, 1998 at 07:36:56PM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > > > Sometimes I think that the profusion of acronyms > can increase the humorous impact of things. I didn't > get the 'WTF' immediately, but it had an all at once > laugh at the moment of realization. > Looks like this is a good opportunity for a suggestion... /usr/ports/misc/acron (And it does have WTF, too.) In any case, I think I once wrote to chat a couple of months ago complaining about all the Three Letter Abbreviations that proliferate on the 'net, like IIRC and FWIW. Not that I want to start that thread again :). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 00:06:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22118 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22047 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07419; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805180702.AAA07419@implode.root.com> To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 May 1998 12:32:58 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:02:57 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Check this out: > >$ /sbin/dmesg >phys mem = 2097152 >avail mem = 1648064 >user mem = 307200 >$ ls -l /unix >-rwxr--r-- 1 root 146289 Mar 6 20:19 /unix >$ > > This is compared to: > >shell6: {1001} dmesg >real memory = 134217728 (131072K bytes) >avail memory = 121163776 (118324K bytes) >shell6: {1003} ls -l /kernel >-r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 8381723 Mar 27 23:26 /kernel >shell6: {1004} Um, that kernel has apparantly been built with -g which will cause it to have about 7-8MB of debugging symbols. I would guess that the real kernel is only around 1MB in size... -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 00:12:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23871 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:12:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23758 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:11:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07458; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805180709.AAA07458@implode.root.com> To: "Bret Ford" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 17 May 1998 13:16:22 PDT." <002001bd81d0$aaff9860$0100a8c0@heather.my.domain> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:09:05 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >on a PDP-11/34 many, many times. I remember it having a >large, white-ish removable drive that was changed periodically. Probably an RK06 or RK07. The capacity of the RK07 was 27MB...I had several of those myself on my PDP-11/60 and VAX-11/730 systems. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 02:46:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA15996 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 02:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA15944 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 02:45:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ybMTc-0001jr-00; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:45:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Internet Exploder inseparable from Windows? In-Reply-To: <19980513153257.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 13, 98 03:32:57 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:45:00 +0200 (SAT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Johann Visagie Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Take a look at http://www.microsoft.com/ie/unix/. I wonder what > they're up to. Towards the end of 1996 MS made a big noise about porting MSIE (3.0 at the time) to various Unix flavours. The final product was released a few months later than expected - so no surprise there. Remember that at that time, MS still viewed Netscape as a very real threat. Netscape's marketing machine kept touting a single Netscape feature as being its ace-in-the-hole when it came to Web browsers: Multi-platform support. Hence the response from MS. -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 03:03:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA19089 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 03:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA19080 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 03:03:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19141; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:03:25 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA17403; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:03:21 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980518120321.12875@follo.net> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:03:21 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Dan Janowski , Wes Peters Cc: Bret Ford , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <355FA36F.900A960@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dan Janowski on Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:20:20AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:20:20AM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > > I used to work on old SGI 3130's and when those > geometry engines were really working, you could hear > some very high pitched harmonic sounds eminating > from the box, seemingly right from the chips, > although this was difficult to confirm. > > Where did the days of lights and sounds go? They did go here. My computer (well, DPT controller) plays a small tune and flashes a bunch of LEDs when I turn it on, and has a 'snake running back and forth' along a row of LEDs when it's happy :-) Eivind, who is just glad that nobody play 'God Save The Queen' on his harddrives (as some virii used to do on his floppy...) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 03:10:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA20243 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 03:10:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA20120 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 03:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19455; Mon, 18 May 1998 10:10:00 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA17435; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:09:59 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980518120958.05851@follo.net> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:09:58 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License References: <355FC482.4B7D24DD@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <355FC482.4B7D24DD@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:17:54PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:17:54PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Nope. I got to see a preproduction 4D/280 at Silicon Graphics, when > I went to take their 3D graphics course. I also once got to fondle > the very first Pentium-based "Paragon" at Intel in Hillsboro. The > computing world is a much less exciting place these days, with PC and > "suits" seeming to run the world. Where's some good old scientific > research, or a cool military project with 3-D graphics and enormous > networks, when you need it? Just wait some years until we all have dedicated lines and 'suitable' amounts of bandwidth :-) Then we'll bundle a virtual machine with the FreeBSD installations, and have a question in the installer (which will still be sysinstall-based ;-) "Do you want to dedicate spare CPU cycles to experiments in parallellism run by the FreeBSD project?" and you can run your massively parallel testbeds on _millions_ of machines - think about the graphics you can create with one PPro per pixel... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 04:42:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04561 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 04:42:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04549 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 04:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from noatun.ifi.uio.no (2602@noatun.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.85]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id NAA03655; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:42:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by noatun.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:42:02 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: drifter@stratos.net Cc: Dan Janowski Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) References: <19980518021302.A6070@stratos.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 18 May 1998 13:42:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: drifter@stratos.net's message of "Mon, 18 May 1998 02:13:02 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org drifter@stratos.net writes: > In any case, I think I once wrote to chat a couple of months > ago complaining about all the Three Letter Abbreviations that > proliferate on the 'net, like IIRC and FWIW. Not that I want to start > that thread again :). FWIW, IIRC and FWIW are not TLAs, they're ETLAs. So there. HTH. HAND. -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 11:26:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:26:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA03781 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:25:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 3855 invoked by uid 1017); 18 May 1998 17:23:19 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:23:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Why we should support Microsoft... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or should not try to do? Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for telling them where to go with their suggesions: * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this ordeal, not Microsoft. * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and competitors can customize their visual. How would all the developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving accurate, detailed instructions. We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing out. The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is freedom. I support Bill Gates in this issue, and hope you will as well. Hopefully, this product will fail all on its own, and open the doors to good programmers all over the world, without US ecomonic intervention. I hope you all can see through this junk. Liberty must be preserved. Let the best products win, and let MS die on its own two feet. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 12:58:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16547 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16468 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:58:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA36920; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:12:47 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id MAA05117; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:11:15 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Atipa cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: I will make one simple statement about freedom and capitalism. The government is not the only organization that can suppress social and economic Darwinism. Natural selection must be natural, not contrived. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 13:11:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20151 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20063 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:11:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA07939; Mon, 18 May 1998 14:11:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <356095DF.67393AEF@plutotech.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:11:11 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atipa CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Atipa (Kevin) wrote: > Smart. > The consumer ultimately decides what sells and > what doesn't, and not the providers. I'm not sure that's true. If an operating systems vendor makes contracts with computer manufacturers that its OS is installed on all manufactured systems, the consumer gets stuck with a `sale' that s/he didn't necessarily choose. > If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and > forces MS to make better products. But MS-DOS stank for years and years, yet was easily one of the world's most popular operating systems. > [ including competing browsers ] > As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product > win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this > ordeal, not Microsoft. Again, consumers don't always choose the superior product. I know personally of a large number of computer users who currently use Internet Exploder instead of Netscrape because it came preinstalled on their systems. It's an older version, and both Exploder 4 and Netscrape 4 are (less buggy?) improvements. But these users don't even realize you could upgrade the browser, much less install a different one. I have a feeling the so-called ``_WE_'' will get hosed one way or another. > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. Oh! Oh! Micro$oft should provide only mechanism, not policy! I'll start porting the Athena Widgets! :-) Seriously, this is one area that has hobbled the X desktop for years while the Mac and Windows user interfaces flourished. Despite all the arguments against UI consistency, a common set of widgets and expected behavior is really a Good Thing (tm). More's the pity, both Micro$oft and 3rd party applications break standards and guidelines to differentiate their products (where `different' == `better'). No one needs to modify the `window manager'; everyone's figured out how to customize the visual appearance already. Blech. > How would all the > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. You mean `smoten'? :-) I don't think the FreeBSD developers would feel that bad---read the BSD license. > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > accurate, detailed instructions. Take a look at the latest version of Quicken ... Intuit took the standards book and tossed it out the window. Worse, Micro$oft did the same thing when it unveiled the latest version of its competing product, Micro$oft Money. For more simultaneously humorous and disheartening examples, I wholeheartedly recommend this site: http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 13:25:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23871 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:25:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhub.ainet.com (mailhub.ainet.com [204.30.40.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23706 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:24:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmscott@ainet.com) Received: from ainet.com (root@ainet.com [204.30.40.6]) by mailhub.ainet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06356; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmscott@ainet.com) Received: from perl.ainet.com () by ainet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28223; Mon, 18 May 98 13:24:58 PDT Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980518132530.00890cd0@mail.ainet.com> X-Sender: jmscott@mail.ainet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:25:30 -0700 To: Atipa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Joseph M. Scott" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I will try to make this rather short in an hope this topic won't get too out of control. Between my economics and business law classes this semester the things that I've learned from them would make at least one of your statements not quite right. "economic Darwinism" as it were doesn't have do so much with how good the product is as much as it is getting people to buy. Having a good product makes it easier to sell, but that shouldn't be considered the end of the story. I used OS/2 for awhile, I found it to be a much better product, but that didn't change things. Now I've been using FreeBSD for awhile and found it to be ( A WHOLE BUNCH ) better product. Will that change things? I don't know, but I don't believe it's entirely accurate to say that "economic Darwinism" consists on which product is better. M$ is good at selling product, they were also lucky with timing of a product. "economic Darwinism" should consist of these elements as well, if it's a term that's going to be used. This is also nothing new ( the government going after M$ ). The government has gone after companies for years ( good ol' Sherman AntiTrust act and friends ) for a variety of reasons. Some times it was handled for better, sometimes for worse. The company being investigated can also have a big impact on the outcome. I think it was Alcoa who managed to make a pretty could setup for itself, gov't came in and said we don't think this is a good thing. ( If I'm remembering this right ) Alcoa took a very decent approach, worked with the gov't to find a solution that was fair to Alcoa and the consumers. I don't think M$ has taken that approach, at least not from what I've seen. I don't claim to be an expert in any of these fields ( I suppose none of us are ), merely trying to find a good approach that gives the best results possible. Anyway, I was going to try and make this short :-) Joseph Scott jmscott@ainet.com At 11:23 AM 5/18/98 -0600, Atipa wrote: > > > > >I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice >Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think >Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. > >We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want >to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money >you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? > >I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and >poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and >what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and >forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or >should not try to do? > >Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US >Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for >telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can > understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the > Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really > cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should > be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps > or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) > > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is > entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having > to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. > As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product > win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this > ordeal, not Microsoft. > > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. How would all the > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > accurate, detailed instructions. > >We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They >do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible >precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. > >They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts >of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing >out. > >The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is >freedom. I support Bill Gates in this issue, and hope you will as well. >Hopefully, this product will fail all on its own, and open the doors to >good programmers all over the world, without US ecomonic intervention. > >I hope you all can see through this junk. Liberty must be preserved. Let >the best products win, and let MS die on its own two feet. > >Kevin > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 13:45:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28954 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28828 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:44:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (ferengal-1-65.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.65]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id PAA01361; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:44:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02181; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:44:26 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980518204426.ZM2180@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:44:26 +0000 In-Reply-To: Atipa "Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 18, 11:23am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Atipa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You obviously miss-understand the issues regarding monopolies and free competition. Should we support Microsoft, you haven't set forth one solid reason for it. Frank On May 18, 11:23am, Atipa wrote: > Subject: Why we should support Microsoft... > > > > > I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice > Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think > Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. > > We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want > to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money > you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? > > I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and > poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and > what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and > forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or > should not try to do? > > Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US > Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for > telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can > understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the > Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really > cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should > be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps > or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) > > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is > entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having > to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. > As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product > win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this > ordeal, not Microsoft. > > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. How would all the > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > accurate, detailed instructions. > > We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They > do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible > precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. > > They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts > of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing > out. > > The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is > freedom. I support Bill Gates in this issue, and hope you will as well. > Hopefully, this product will fail all on its own, and open the doors to > good programmers all over the world, without US ecomonic intervention. > > I hope you all can see through this junk. Liberty must be preserved. Let > the best products win, and let MS die on its own two feet. > > Kevin > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Atipa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 13:45:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA29043 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:45:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28960 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id NAA07510; Mon, 18 May 1998 13:45:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Atipa cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stop smoking crack. This is not about Bill Gates having too much money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. Monopoly should be stopped. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: > > > > >I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice >Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think >Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. > >We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want >to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money >you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? > >I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and >poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and >what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and >forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or >should not try to do? > >Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US >Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for >telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can > understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the > Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really > cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should > be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps > or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) > > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is > entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having > to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. > As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product > win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this > ordeal, not Microsoft. > > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. How would all the > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > accurate, detailed instructions. > >We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They >do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible >precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. > >They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts >of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing >out. > >The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is >freedom. I support Bill Gates in this issue, and hope you will as well. >Hopefully, this product will fail all on its own, and open the doors to >good programmers all over the world, without US ecomonic intervention. > >I hope you all can see through this junk. Liberty must be preserved. Let >the best products win, and let MS die on its own two feet. > >Kevin > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 14:54:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14537 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 14:54:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14048 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 14:52:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 4775 invoked by uid 1017); 18 May 1998 20:49:46 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:49:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: Sean Kelly cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <356095DF.67393AEF@plutotech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998, Sean Kelly wrote: > Atipa (Kevin) wrote: > > > > Smart. > > > The consumer ultimately decides what sells and > > what doesn't, and not the providers. > > I'm not sure that's true. If an operating systems vendor makes > contracts with computer manufacturers that its OS is installed on all > manufactured systems, the consumer gets stuck with a `sale' that s/he > didn't necessarily choose. How long would those contracts last if the product was inferior? There will always be a choice. We should lobby alternatives. In fact, I think this whole issue is way less important than their corruption of Java. _THAT_ will be the key to everyone else's success. A nice, free Java-capable OS would be a godsend. We should send the Men in Black to investigate that instead. That decision will make this one moot. > > If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and forces MS to make better products. > > But MS-DOS stank for years and years, yet was easily one of the world's > most popular operating systems. It did its job. It brought PC's onto the forefront. If it were more featurefull (complicated), it would not have ever gotten off the ground. And yes, it did stink, but that is why we have _evolved_ away from it. There have been very few software products that have been useful as long as DOS. (All I can think of are scientific tools like FORTRAN, linpack, etc). > > [ including competing browsers ] > > As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product > > win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this > > ordeal, not Microsoft. > > Again, consumers don't always choose the superior product. I know > personally of a large number of computer users who currently use > Internet Exploder instead of Netscrape because it came preinstalled on > their systems. It's an older version, and both Exploder 4 and Netscrape > 4 are (less buggy?) improvements. But these users don't even realize > you could upgrade the browser, much less install a different one. Well, I have little pity for the uninformed. I think IE4 is _way_ less buggy (and bloated) than Netscape, and perhaps the difference is the inside track on the structure of the OS. > I have a feeling the so-called ``_WE_'' will get hosed one way or > another. True, but who do you want to make these decisions? Certainly not some politicians who wouldn't know a browser from a colonic. > > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > > competitors can customize their visual. > > Oh! Oh! Micro$oft should provide only mechanism, not policy! I'll > start porting the Athena Widgets! :-) > > Seriously, this is one area that has hobbled the X desktop for years > while the Mac and Windows user interfaces flourished. Despite all the > arguments against UI consistency, a common set of widgets and expected > behavior is really a Good Thing (tm). For both developers and the user base. > More's the pity, both Micro$oft and 3rd party applications break > standards and guidelines to differentiate their products (where > `different' == `better'). No one needs to modify the `window manager'; > everyone's figured out how to customize the visual appearance already. > Blech. > > > How would all the > > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. > > You mean `smoten'? :-) Correct! Should be "smitten" or "smoten". :) > I don't think the FreeBSD developers would feel that bad---read the BSD > license. > > > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > > accurate, detailed instructions. > > Take a look at the latest version of Quicken ... Intuit took the > standards book and tossed it out the window. Worse, Micro$oft did the > same thing when it unveiled the latest version of its competing product, > Micro$oft Money. For more simultaneously humorous and disheartening > examples, I wholeheartedly recommend this site: > > http://www.iarchitect.com/mshame.htm As soon as I shake off the first wave of attackers, I'll check it out. :) Regards, Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 15:06:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17271 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:06:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17117 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 4825 invoked by uid 1017); 18 May 1998 21:02:57 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:02:56 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Stop smoking crack. Nice. Very classy argument. > This is not about Bill Gates having too much > money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following > keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. Those are commodities that influence the basic needs of people (heat, elctricity, telephones), and not what OS they use to play Quake. If we open the door to this kind of government support, expect a clipper chip inside your phone very shortly. > Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. > Monopoly should be stopped. But what makes this a monopoly? We all have the ability to choose products, and noone is taking that away. I personally will not be using Windows98, and I personally would like to see MS get smart. However, I disagree with this approach. As I stated in other e-mails, we are missing the big picture. We need to focus on promoting emerging technologies, instead of stunting existing ones. Then we can all be winners. They should be investigating MS's poisoning of Java instead of their integrated browser. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 15:47:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27085 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.iconz.co.nz (mail.iconz.co.nz [202.14.100.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27039 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:47:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from news.iconz.co.nz (status.gen.nz [202.14.100.1]) by mail.iconz.co.nz (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA103580895530573 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:29:33 +1200 (NZST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news.iconz.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id KAA20199 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:29:33 +1200 Received: from tui.pinnacle.co.nz (tui.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.3]) by kakapo.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06716 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:24:33 +1200 (NZST) Received: from localhost (jonc@localhost) by tui.pinnacle.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA02526 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:24:32 +1200 (NZST) X-Authentication-Warning: tui.pinnacle.co.nz: jonc owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:24:32 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-Reply-To: <19980518120321.12875@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > They did go here. My computer (well, DPT controller) plays a small > tune and flashes a bunch of LEDs when I turn it on, and has a 'snake > running back and forth' along a row of LEDs when it's happy :-) When I first saw the lights, the first thing I thought was that the designers had decided to put a Cylon on line... [loved those stupid mechanical monstrosities from Battlestar Galactica] -- Jonathan Chen ----- char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 15:51:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28172 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28121 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:51:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id SAA02188 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:29:29 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: > On Mon, 18 May 1998, Sean Kelly wrote: > > > Atipa (Kevin) wrote: > > > > > > > Smart. > > > > > The consumer ultimately decides what sells and > > > what doesn't, and not the providers. > > > > I'm not sure that's true. If an operating systems vendor makes > > contracts with computer manufacturers that its OS is installed on all > > manufactured systems, the consumer gets stuck with a `sale' that s/he > > didn't necessarily choose. > > How long would those contracts last if the product was inferior? Win 3.x was inferior and those contracts lasted until the consent decree was signed. > There will always be a choice. You know that, I know that, the people on this list know that, but Joe Sixpack doesn't know an operating system from a TCP/IP stack from a serial port. To him it's all part of "the computer". Whatever comes on the box he bought at Kmart will probably be the only thing to ever run on it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 15:52:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28364 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28269 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:51:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA07915; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA24042; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:51:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Jonathan Chen cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SCO offers Ancient Unix Source Code License In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org They were fun. On Tue, 19 May 1998, Jonathan Chen wrote: > [loved those stupid mechanical monstrosities from Battlestar Galactica] > -- > Jonathan Chen -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 15:56:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29908 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:56:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA29836 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:56:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 5041 invoked by uid 1017); 18 May 1998 21:53:38 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:53:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Those are commodities that influence the basic needs of people (heat, > >elctricity, telephones), and not what OS they use to play Quake. If we > >open the door to this kind of government support, expect a clipper chip > >inside your phone very shortly. > > EXACTLY!!! If you look at where MS invested lately and what they > bought you will realize that 1984 is soon to be here. They bough or > invested almost everywhere: cable, tv, phone, etc. etc. etc. I don't want > to have every appliance soon run windows -- and if the monopoly won't stop > now, this WILL happened. Nobody is going to port FreeBSD to your cable box > or your microwave -- but MS will port their Windows. Embedded NT, Windows > CE, windows for WebTV, WAKE UP!!! Do you want to live in the world like > that? I do not. Nor do I. As I said, I am not a big MS fan; I am a fan of freedom and choices. I just think that diluting technology does not solve a thing, and taking this issue to court gives the power to the government, instead of to the people. We need better, stronger alternatives. We need a plan, because we are both afraid of the same disastrous end. We just have different culprits. If you look at our business (Atipa), we gain a very significant portion of our money by offering alternatives to Microsoft. The blue suits at Dell, Packard Hell, etc., need to be convinced of the same. I think it will take Java (or some other cross-platform environment) to get us there. That will also loosen the grip of the evil Intel. This is what we need to protect, not Netscape. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 15:57:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00304 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:57:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (root@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA29768 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:56:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id PAA23372; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:25:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:25:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Atipa cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: > >> Stop smoking crack. >Nice. Very classy argument. Just stating facts. :) > >> This is not about Bill Gates having too much >> money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following >> keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. > >Those are commodities that influence the basic needs of people (heat, >elctricity, telephones), and not what OS they use to play Quake. If we >open the door to this kind of government support, expect a clipper chip >inside your phone very shortly. EXACTLY!!! If you look at where MS invested lately and what they bought you will realize that 1984 is soon to be here. They bough or invested almost everywhere: cable, tv, phone, etc. etc. etc. I don't want to have every appliance soon run windows -- and if the monopoly won't stop now, this WILL happened. Nobody is going to port FreeBSD to your cable box or your microwave -- but MS will port their Windows. Embedded NT, Windows CE, windows for WebTV, WAKE UP!!! Do you want to live in the world like that? I do not. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 16:13:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04786 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04751 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-1-172.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.174]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id SAA13641; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:13:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02401; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:13:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980518231316.ZM2400@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:13:16 +0000 In-Reply-To: Atipa "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 18, 3:02pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Atipa , "Jan B. Koum " Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 18, 3:02pm, Atipa wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > > Stop smoking crack. > Nice. Very classy argument. > How better to answer an obvious troll that doesn't have a clue? Frank > > This is not about Bill Gates having too much > > money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following > > keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. > > Those are commodities that influence the basic needs of people (heat, > elctricity, telephones), and not what OS they use to play Quake. If we > open the door to this kind of government support, expect a clipper chip > inside your phone very shortly. > > > Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. > > Monopoly should be stopped. > > But what makes this a monopoly? We all have the ability to choose > products, and noone is taking that away. I personally will not be using > Windows98, and I personally would like to see MS get smart. However, I > disagree with this approach. > > As I stated in other e-mails, we are missing the big picture. We need to > focus on promoting emerging technologies, instead of stunting existing > ones. Then we can all be winners. They should be investigating MS's > poisoning of Java instead of their integrated browser. > > Kevin > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Atipa To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 16:14:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05117 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:14:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04973 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11171; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:08:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Atipa cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: > We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want > to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money Bah. Who taught you all that Romantic crap disguised in the name of Classic Natural Law and Liberty. Capitalism is a tool, nothing more. > Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US > Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for > telling them where to go with their suggesions: Most of these are unreasonable demands only due to the unreasonable nature of the problem. There is no correct direction to turn because we took the wrong fork in the road a while ago, and now both left and right lead equally wrongly. The solution is the FreeBSD ports system. > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. How would all the > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. Actually, that *is* why we call it _Free_BSD. Regardless, the answer to the question "Should OEMs be allowed to customize the start-up screen?" is that the question is invalid. > We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They > do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible > precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. Let the rodents run 'round. They'll do no more harm than already done. I believe we should concentrate on the future. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 16:47:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12004 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11907 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id QAA23662 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:46:57 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id QAA29584 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 16:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:45:27 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can I make an analogy to Nazi's in hope of speeding the death of this thread? :) Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 17:02:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15387 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:02:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15269 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (androzani-1-126.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.92.126]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA02186; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:01:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02494; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:01:36 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980519000135.ZM2493@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:01:35 +0000 In-Reply-To: Atipa "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 18, 4:21pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Atipa Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 18, 4:21pm, Atipa wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > > > > Stop smoking crack. > > > Nice. Very classy argument. > > > > > > > How better to answer an obvious troll that doesn't have a clue? > > > > Frank > > I'm _trying_ to give you one, but it appears some people are not > receptive. You do not express a high degree of professionalism. > > Kevin >-- End of excerpt from Atipa Kevin, Your correct, I am not exhibiting a high degree of professionalism with my terse remarks. However, I am a graduate Economist who has studied corporate monopolistic practices, and have very little sympathy for any organization that engages in competitive practices such as those practiced by Microsoft. When any organization obtains control of over 90% of the desktop OS, and panders inferior server platforms strictly through marketing muscle and other preditory practices to the detrtement of superior products I will have a problem with them. Sorry to take it out on you but, nothing personal. Anyone with the most elementary knowledge of Economics will see through your arguments. Sorry, but I also don't have the time to teach micro economics 101 right now. However, I may wish to talk to you about purchasing some computer hardware at very competitive prices. That's for serious, and that's econ 101. Best regards, Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 17:19:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19157 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from enteract.com (dannyman@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19032 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@enteract.com) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00374; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:19:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980518191905.B28301@enteract.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:19:05 -0500 From: dannyman To: Atipa , "Jan B. Koum " Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Mail-Followup-To: Atipa , "Jan B. Koum " , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Atipa on Mon, May 18, 1998 at 03:02:56PM -0600 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 18, 1998 at 03:02:56PM -0600, Atipa wrote: > > This is not about Bill Gates having too much > > money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following > > keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. > > Those are commodities that influence the basic needs of people (heat, > elctricity, telephones), and not what OS they use to play Quake. If we > open the door to this kind of government support, expect a clipper chip > inside your phone very shortly. _My_ livelihood depends more on affordable Internet access and decent software than on oil and telephones. I don't even live in California. If you can do without consumer choice re: my computer, I can deal without consumer choice re: the grade and price of fuel you pump into your car. > > Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. > > Monopoly should be stopped. > > But what makes this a monopoly? We all have the ability to choose > products, and noone is taking that away. I personally will not be using > Windows98, and I personally would like to see MS get smart. However, I > disagree with this approach. A monopoly holds 80% or more of a market, legally. Microsoft is a Monopoly, and given its size and capability/potential for abuse, warrants greater scrutiny than its puny competitors, like Netscape, Sun, or FreeBSD. You don't see Apache scheming to try and redefine the "look and feel" of your desktop environment, eh? > As I stated in other e-mails, we are missing the big picture. We need to > focus on promoting emerging technologies, instead of stunting existing > ones. Then we can all be winners. They should be investigating MS's > poisoning of Java instead of their integrated browser. Exactly. It is very possible that Microsoft focuses on stunting emerging, potentially threatening technologies, and I want my government to look into that and lay the smack down, if need be. imho, this thread is entirely irrelevant even to -chat ... -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 17:32:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22249 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:32:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21794 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id UAA08035; Mon, 18 May 1998 20:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (danj@localhost) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id UAA24168; Mon, 18 May 1998 20:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:30:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Janowski To: Atipa cc: "Jan B. Koum " , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: > We need better, stronger alternatives. We need a plan, because we are both > afraid of the same disastrous end. We just have different culprits. Which do you have, the chicken or the egg? A 90% dominance of all desktop PCs sold is a very difficult thing to break into. Dan -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 17:40:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24047 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA23890 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:39:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 5356 invoked by uid 1017); 18 May 1998 23:37:09 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:37:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: Frank Pawlak cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <980519000135.ZM2493@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Kevin, > > Your correct, I am not exhibiting a high degree of professionalism with my > terse remarks. However, I am a graduate Economist who has studied corporate > monopolistic practices, and have very little sympathy for any organization that > engages in competitive practices such as those practiced by Microsoft. When > any organization obtains control of over 90% of the desktop OS, and panders > inferior server platforms strictly through marketing muscle and other preditory > practices to the detrtement of superior products I will have a problem with > them. I have no love lost for MS either; I just feel this is not the correct action by the gov't. We need to get to the root, which this attempt blatantly misses. > Sorry to take it out on you but, nothing personal. Anyone with the most > elementary knowledge of Economics will see through your arguments. Sorry, but > I also don't have the time to teach micro economics 101 right now. As long as it is directed at my philosophy and not me as in individual, not harm done. I am always up for a good fight; I just don't like being called a troll because I hold a different opinion. As I alluded to, I fully expected severe criticism. I am not offended, and I do appreciate that consideration. > However, I may wish to talk to you about purchasing some computer hardware at > very competitive prices. That's for serious, and that's econ 101. Let me know what I can do. I am happy to be of any assistance. Hardware is much more my forte' than economics! :) Take Care, Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 17:44:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24782 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA24621 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 5379 invoked by uid 1017); 18 May 1998 23:40:31 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:40:30 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: Dan Janowski cc: "Jan B. Koum " , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > We need better, stronger alternatives. We need a plan, because we are both > > afraid of the same disastrous end. We just have different culprits. > > Which do you have, the chicken or the egg? A 90% dominance > of all desktop PCs sold is a very difficult thing to > break into. I am in full agreement that MS should be cracked down upon, but just not for this particular crime. It is like Al Capone being arrested on tax evasion. Preventing MS from distributing an integrated browser will have no effect on their market share of desktop PC OSes. Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 18:15:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01479 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:15:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01347 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26522; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:14:27 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA23813; Tue, 19 May 1998 03:14:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980519031426.35170@follo.net> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 03:14:26 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Atipa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Atipa on Mon, May 18, 1998 at 11:23:19AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 18, 1998 at 11:23:19AM -0600, Atipa wrote: > > > > > I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice > Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think > Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. I think you're nuts ;-) > We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want > to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? 'Free' and 'capitalistic' aren't equal (and applying the former adjective to the US is quite a stretch). Anyway; you wouldn't want pure capitalism. Let me give you a simple example from a _purely_ capitalistic society: Microsoft decides that they would have a better chance in the market without Netscape present. They calculate the value of not having Netscape present, and comes up with a number in the hundreds of millions. So, they decide to invest $10million in making sure that Netscape doesn't release the next version of their browser. They look around for opportunities - which people on the Netscape team would be most sorely missed? They create a list - Jwz, Ramrigo, two people from the 'Raptor' team, Andressen, Clarksdale. They make some discreet phonecalls, spending their money on making sure that the people on the list doesn't work again - neither for Netscape, nor for anybody else. The flowers are very pretty. THAT'S the society you're idealizing. I don't think you want that - I guess you have some pink, fuzzy picture of a capitalistic, free society... What I think you would want if you thought a bit more about it is a society that is optimized for (1) having broad consumer choice and (2) using that choice to optimize the production. This is often called a 'capitalistic socitey'; it is really a 'market-driven' society. > That you can make all the money you want, until you make too much? > What kind of crap is that? That's not what this is about _at all_. What it is about is stopping Microsoft because they're _not competing in the market_. Nobody is interested in how much money they are making; the only reason there is any hype about that part at all is because it is the easiest way for MS to excuse themselves ("they're just envious of our success"). > I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and > poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and > what doesn't, and not the providers. This is only correct in a market. A market that is manipulated by a monopoly don't behave this way, because consumers are searching for local instead of global optima. You don't want society to reach a local optimum which then let the coorporations rape the consumers. Let me give a simple example of this: Standard Oil (now Esso/Exxon) used to use 'predatory pricing' to keep competitiors away. They'd select an area that they wanted to 'own'. Then they'd sell gas at less than cost until all competitors went bankrupt; afterwards, they'd raise prices to get an overall profit for the area. If any competitior tried to 'invade', they'd lower their prices in that area again to make sure that that competitor went away. Now, in this case it is fairly obvious how predatory pricing can work - the consumer end up paying more for gas over the total time he buys gas, while he pays less for gas in the short periods where SO is killing off competitors. The case isn't as easy to see with Microsoft, but they use the exact same techniques, only they don't (in this case) take out their profits from the same product ("gas is gas is gas"). A case where it seemed like they were planning to use the standard predatory pricing technique was by giving away 'MS-Money' - but they were stopped. > Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US > Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for > telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can > understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the > Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really > cool idea to me. To make it possible to access a browser through an operating system seems like a really cool idea to me. To include a browser with the operating system so this technology is available sound like a fairly good idea. To integrate the browser in the OS to the point where it "can't be ripped out" sounds like a combination of a marketing trick and horrible engineering. Creating an API for replacing IE would be easy - not creating one seems to be driven by their desire to use one monopoly to create another. > Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should > be able to > operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps or > proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) And how do you ensure this, except by making sure other browsers have something like an equal footing? How do you make sure that there will be a minimum of cross-platform compatibility, to avoid you having to have a Wintel PC to see the web? Microsoft has already done a LOT of attempts to pull the web over to being Wintel only. > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is > entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having > to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. I believe it is somewhat extreme, but I haven't gone through this side of it in depth. Making sure that all browsing platforms compete on an EQUAL footing certainly has merits. > As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product > win. Removing the restrictions remove the competition between the products - one product get a _large_ default following, and it will be impossible to avoid to use it (yeah, that's correct. Even if you install Netscape, it will be impossible to avoid using IE when browsing from other programs). > As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this > > ordeal, not Microsoft. No, you're not. You're the ones that get a slightly less convenient 'now' in swap for a better future. That's what being part of a society is about. > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. How would all the > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? Fine - go ahead. If you read the license carefully, you will notice that you are allowed to do this, and we're encouraging people to do just this. E.g many NCs are running slightly re-wamped NetBSD - we wouldn't mind at _all_ if they wre running FreeBSD instead. :-) > You would feel smited. Bull. > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > accurate, detailed instructions. Too bad. You're in favour of consumer choice - hey, you said so above! Not that I really feel the requirement as useful, but I don't think your arguments hold water. > We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They > do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible > precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. We must take the people that don't understand the problems of monopolies (or extreme market dominance) and tell them to bugger off - they're setting an extreme bad precedent, _and are attempting to deny the people free choice, even though they don't understand it_. > They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts > of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing > out. They're fixing an environment where anti-competitve techniques are growing BIG. > The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is > freedom. Correct. That's why we must stop Microsoft from making the web uni-platform NOW. NOW. Not in a year - NOW. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 18:55:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20930 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20871 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 15:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-1-55.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.55]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id RAA23495; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:21:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02319; Mon, 18 May 1998 17:21:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980518222109.ZM2318@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:21:09 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jan B. Koum " "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 18, 1:45pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jan B. Koum " Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 18, 1:45pm, Jan B. Koum wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > Stop smoking crack. This is not about Bill Gates having too much > money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following > keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. > Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. > Monopoly should be stopped. > > -- Yan > Right on bro! Frank > Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want > www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > > On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice > >Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think > >Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. > > > >We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want > >to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money > >you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? > > > >I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and > >poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and > >what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and > >forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or > >should not try to do? > > > >Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US > >Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for > >telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > > of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can > > understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the > > Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really > > cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should > > be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps > > or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) > > > > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > > competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is > > entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having > > to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. > > As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product > > win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this > > ordeal, not Microsoft. > > > > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > > competitors can customize their visual. How would all the > > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. > > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > > accurate, detailed instructions. > > > >We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They > >do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible > >precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. > > > >They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts > >of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing > >out. > > > >The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is > >freedom. I support Bill Gates in this issue, and hope you will as well. > >Hopefully, this product will fail all on its own, and open the doors to > >good programmers all over the world, without US ecomonic intervention. > > > >I hope you all can see through this junk. Liberty must be preserved. Let > >the best products win, and let MS die on its own two feet. > > > >Kevin > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jan B. Koum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 19:03:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10140 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:03:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10079 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24651; Mon, 18 May 1998 20:03:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805190203.UAA24651@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:02:50 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... NOT! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:23 AM 5/18/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice >Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think >Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. > >We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want >to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money >you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? This is not what "they" are saying. Microsoft is engaging in unscrupulous and monopolistic business practices, including tying, monopoly maintenance, tortious interference with contract, breach of contract, and more. These practices are illegal in any industry -- be it software, steel, coal, railroads, or shoes. >I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and >poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and >what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and >forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or >should not try to do? This is analogous to saying that if a group of gangsters manages to gain control of a city as its "territory," that you have no say in what it does. After all, that's "Darwinism;" the strongest gang has won, right? >Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US >Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for >telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can > understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the > Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really > cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should > be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps > or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) Microsoft could, and should, have removed the browser entirely and made it optional. Since it did not, it seems reasonable to offer it the option of disabling it. > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is > entirely ludicrous. No, it is not. Again, it's merely an expedient compromise. The PROPER thing to do is not to tie the browser to the OS. However, if Microsoft is going to do so, one way to ameliorate the negative effects is to allow other companies to put their browsers on the disk as well. It's not a very GOOD way, since they wouldn't be able to charge for their browsers that way (and one of the biggest problems with Microsoft's tying of the browser is that it's effectively "dumping" it on the market for free). But at least the browser makers could get some revenue page from "Portal" pages, etc. > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. How would all the > developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed > the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? Fine. In fact, you're allowed to. Go to it! > Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes > supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own > interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving > accurate, detailed instructions. Nonsense. The UI would not necessarily be different; all that might happen is that a different logo might appear when the computer booted. You seem to be buying Bill Gates' bogus arguments, hook, line, and sinker. With all due respect, have you been sent to this newsgroup by Microsoft as part of its "grass roots" campaign? Microsoft has been known to plant disruptive "advocates" in online forums in the past, so this is by no means unusual. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 19:03:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10156 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10087 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:03:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24644; Mon, 18 May 1998 20:03:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.0.1.19980518195954.0453a290@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:01:11 -0600 To: Atipa , "Jan B. Koum " From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:53 PM 5/18/98 -0600, Atipa wrote: >Nor do I. As I said, I am not a big MS fan; I am a fan of freedom and >choices. So am I. And Gateway, Micron, Dell, Compaq, and all of the other major PC vendors have been bullied by Microsoft into offering none. You can't buy one of their computers without a Microsoft OS. Some choice! --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 19:07:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10993 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:07:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10898 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:07:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 5622 invoked by uid 1017); 19 May 1998 00:57:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:57:55 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <6671.895541906@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hooray! Finally someone else who sees two wrongs don't make a right. Jordan, although we may get lynched for this, thanks for the jolt of rationality :-) Kevin On Mon, 18 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice > > Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think > > Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. > > I agree totally. The people who are so enthusiastically > rah-rah-rahing about the idea of the Justice dept. pissing in > Microsoft's breakfast cereal by successfully arguing that including a > browser with an OS constitutes some sort of anti-trust violation are, > not to put too fine a point on it, being complete idiots. By > endorsing such a precedent, they are essentially building the > government a legal assault weapon, aiming it at part of the software > industry and then naively assuming that it won't be turned in their > direction once it's done shooting at Microsoft. > > We're already in a hell of our own making over the issue of software > patents (we asked for these laws, the goverment said yes, now we've > screwed ourselves) and some people would now like to essentially say > that the U.S. government, those wonderfully intelligent people who > brought us export restrictions on cryptographic software which can be > printed on a T-shirt and walked out of the country, should judge just > which features a programmer can and cannot put into his or her OS. > > Frankly, putting IE into Win95 was the next logical step for Microsoft > to make and I applaud Bill for having the guts to give the government > the finger on this one. This government has no business saying what > Microsoft can or cannot put into its software products and they have > no business saying what can go into MY products either. I'm at least > smart enough to see that I can't argue for my freedom and deny > Microsoft's without becoming a complete hypocrite in the process. > Think about it, folks. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily > your friend. > > - Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 19:52:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18422 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:52:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18236 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 19:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from acme.gen.nz by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz id <03417-0@cc-server9.massey.ac.nz>; Tue, 19 May 1998 14:18:43 +1200 Received: from officedonkey by acme.gen.nz with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0ybbLj-0028zsC; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:37:51 +1200 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:25:13 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Reply-to: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Atipa wrote: > Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US > Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for > telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > of accessing it > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. I'd agree with you that these solutions are sub-obtimal, but only because Justice are afraid of the solution really needed: separate Microsoft's OS business from everything else. While Windows is head, shoulders, and belly-button above every other mainstream OS, Microsoft have an unfair advantage over every single other application developer and content provider in the world. And I have to say, I'm continually surprised at people who can't understand why Microsoft's current dominance is a Bad Thing. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 21:24:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (root@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00730 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id UAA01198 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 20:52:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:52:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PLS STOP (WAS: Why we should support Microsoft... NOT!) In-Reply-To: <199805190203.UAA24651@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org People. Please. This will not prove anything or help anyone. While this list can be used for something more constructive, we are wasting valuable bandwidth and our time on discussion of Microsoft and etc. Let the government and lawyers figure it out. They (MS and Government) are both corrupt. Now please, stop this useless flame war. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 21:30:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01858 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01816 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00523; Mon, 18 May 1998 22:30:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35610AD2.42C06C76@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:30:10 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Kelly CC: Atipa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... References: <356095DF.67393AEF@plutotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Kelly wrote: > > Atipa (Kevin) wrote: > > > > Smart. > > > The consumer ultimately decides what sells and > > what doesn't, and not the providers. > > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > > competitors can customize their visual. > > Oh! Oh! Micro$oft should provide only mechanism, not policy! I'll > start porting the Athena Widgets! :-) Oh for God's sake at least read the trade press articles before stepping into this pile of BS, er, MS. What the DOJ asked Microsoft to do was to STOP pulling licenses from companies that changed the STARTUP GRAPHIC. Not the window manager. Kevin, you need to go study the precepts of anti-trust legislation, and carefully read what the DOJ is taking Microsoft to task for. The business tactics employed by Microsoft are reprehensible, and have *nothing* to do with their products. These lawsuits are not about products, they are about Microsoft using their position as a monoply player to prohibit other businesses from shipping the products they and their customers want. Grasp your left ear firmly with your left hand. Grasp your right ear firmly with your right hand. Pull vigorously until you hear a loud POP... -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 21:35:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03069 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02975 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:34:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00503; Mon, 18 May 1998 22:12:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35610698.A709660E@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:12:08 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav" CC: drifter@stratos.net, Dan Janowski Subject: Re: Why pdp11 is cool. (WAS: SCO offers Ancient Unix...) References: <19980518021302.A6070@stratos.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > drifter@stratos.net writes: > > In any case, I think I once wrote to chat a couple of months > > ago complaining about all the Three Letter Abbreviations that > > proliferate on the 'net, like IIRC and FWIW. Not that I want to start > > that thread again :). > > FWIW, IIRC and FWIW are not TLAs, they're ETLAs. So there. HTH. HAND. Out in these parts, they're known as '4LAs', which is either a TLA or 3LA, depending on your alphanumerical proclivities. 'FLA' won't work, because it is too ambiguous. Also note that TLA, 3LA, and 4LA are not related to 'LAL' in any way - that is a TLA for "Los Angeles Losers." Go Jazz! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 21:41:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04860 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00534; Mon, 18 May 1998 22:41:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35610D86.F7788CAF@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:41:42 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atipa CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now that I've vented my spleen all over Kevin, I'll refute directly a couple of the points he is mistaken on: Atipa wrote: > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means Nope, wrong. What they asked for is that the browser component, since it is an application, be installed separately. They can put it on the CD-ROM, they can install all of the DLLs, they just can't stick their browser on your system when you just asked to install the operating system. > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is If they're going to provide a 'free' browser, they must provide copies of all free browsers, or at least a reasonable selection, on the distribution media. Again, they're protecting the consumers right to choose. > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. No, no, no. Microsoft isn't allowed to yank Compaq's Win95 license if Compaq wants to add the Compaq logo to the STARTUP SCREEN. Or add a Compaq channel to the IE channel bar. Or remove the #!!#@%$%# channel bar. As I said before, go read the briefs, THEN form your opinions. Stop basing your opinions on what Microsoft's PR people have been publishing in PC Week. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 23:08:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09203 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:58:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08932 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:57:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA13281; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:42:30 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980519104229.M427@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:42:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Apple to drop Rhapsody? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seen this? Any comments? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Jerry_Dunham ----- > Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:09:55 -0500 > >> * APPLE EYES THE CONSUMER MARKET/KILLS OFF RHAPSODY PLAN...Apple >> Computer Inc. unveiled a new computer called the iMac --with a price >> of (US) $1,299 - as part of an effort to regain more of the consumer >> market, according to an article last Thursday in THE NEW YORK TIMES. >> Apple also introduced a line of Power Book notebooks designed around >> its G3 microprocessor. >> >> Separately, Apple is abandoning its strategy of replacing its >> Macintosh operating system with Rhapsody, according to an article in >> THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Instead, Apple is planning to add advanced >> functions to the current software in an upgraded version called Mac OS >> X. Steve Jobs announced the decision this week at a meeting of Apple >> software developers in San Jose, California. According to the article, >> Rhapsody is not being completely abandoned - it will be used on >> data-storage servers starting this fall, rather than on mainstream >> desktop machines. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 23:18:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09365 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08839 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 18:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01403; Mon, 18 May 1998 21:02:50 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Atipa Cc: "Jan B. Koum " , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 01:05:13 GMT Message-ID: <3561d69c.198654393@mail.cetlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA08931 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 18 May 1998 15:02:56 -0600 (MDT), Atipa wrote: > Jan B. Koum said: >> This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following >> keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. Monopoly is bad for economy. Not necessarily. Cisco has achieved 80% monopoly in the Internet router market, but without using illegal tying contracts and other practices prohibited by the antitrust laws. As long as they act lawfully while creating a monopoly, the law does not judge it as bad. > Atipa said: >> Those are commodities that influence the basic needs of people (heat, >> elctricity, telephones), and not what OS they use to play Quake. If we >> open the door to this kind of government support, expect a clipper chip >> inside your phone very shortly. An OS which drives net commerce is quickly becoming a basic need. Microsoft, OTOH, has acted unlawfully. Tying contracts, exclusive dealing, and other bad practices, not to mention shoddy products, are their standard operating procedure. Therefore, the law judges them as bad, deserving of severe punishment, up to and including destruction. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 23:19:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25860 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:19:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic30.pm09.sf3d.best.com [209.24.239.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25792 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA16069; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:19:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980518231907.20552@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:19:07 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PLS STOP (WAS: Why we should support Microsoft... NOT!) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199805190203.UAA24651@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:52:06PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:52:06PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > People. Please. This will not prove anything or help anyone. While > this list can be used for something more constructive, we are wasting > valuable bandwidth and our time on discussion of Microsoft and etc. Let > the government and lawyers figure it out. They (MS and Government) are both > corrupt. Now please, stop this useless flame war. > > -- Yan > Finality, the voice reason speaks. Thanks, Jan Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.6 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 23:32:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28939 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28793 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:32:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id CAA08651; Tue, 19 May 1998 02:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 3skel.com (localhost.3skel.com [127.0.0.1]) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with ESMTP id CAA26266; Tue, 19 May 1998 02:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3561276C.75F3B2B@3skel.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 02:32:12 -0400 From: Dan Janowski Organization: Triskelion Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Apple to drop Rhapsody? References: <19980519104229.M427@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I saw this a few days ago in the NY Times. Rather disapointing. I guess we'll have to see what this server shit is. I think the main reason for it was the amount of work that developers were going to have to do to get things ported. Beats me. Dan Greg Lehey wrote: > Seen this? Any comments? > > Greg > > ----- Forwarded message from Jerry_Dunham ----- > > > Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:09:55 -0500 > > > >> * APPLE EYES THE CONSUMER MARKET/KILLS OFF RHAPSODY PLAN...Apple > >> Computer Inc. unveiled a new computer called the iMac --with a price > >> of (US) $1,299 - as part of an effort to regain more of the consumer > >> market, according to an article last Thursday in THE NEW YORK TIMES. > >> Apple also introduced a line of Power Book notebooks designed around > >> its G3 microprocessor. > >> > >> Separately, Apple is abandoning its strategy of replacing its > >> Macintosh operating system with Rhapsody, according to an article in > >> THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Instead, Apple is planning to add advanced > >> functions to the current software in an upgraded version called Mac OS > >> X. Steve Jobs announced the decision this week at a meeting of Apple > >> software developers in San Jose, California. According to the article, > >> Rhapsody is not being completely abandoned - it will be used on > >> data-storage servers starting this fall, rather than on mainstream > >> desktop machines. > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 18 23:52:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02988 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA02952 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 23:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA28087; Tue, 19 May 1998 00:51:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805190651.AAA28087@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:51:13 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Want to read what the DoJ *really* said? See the following links: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1763.htm and http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm They explain the entire affair much more clearly than I can. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 00:50:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12161 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 00:50:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12066 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 00:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id AAA03381; Tue, 19 May 1998 00:50:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:50:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this In-Reply-To: <199805190651.AAA28087@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Holly shit. The government has evidence. Hard core evidence. Look at the quotes they present in these paper. And I am sure that is just half of it. This is not simple "he said" against "they said" war anymore. I'd sell all my MS stock if I had any. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Tue, 19 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >Want to read what the DoJ *really* said? See the following links: > >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1763.htm > >and > >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm > >They explain the entire affair much more clearly than I can. > >--Brett > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 01:25:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18709 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:25:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18692 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:24:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from u.washington.edu (dmorrisn@D-128-95-141-106.dhcp.washington.edu [128.95.141.106]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with ESMTP id BAA26010; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:24:47 -0700 Message-ID: <35614267.D27DB078@u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 01:27:19 -0700 From: Don Morrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Apple to drop Rhapsody? References: <19980519104229.M427@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > Seen this? Any comments? > > > Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:09:55 -0500 > > > >> * APPLE EYES THE CONSUMER MARKET/KILLS OFF RHAPSODY PLAN...Apple I don't think they're abandoning Rhapsody, they're just targeting it as a server platform...I don't think they ever intended to sell it to the everyday mac user, just wanted to trump it up a bit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 01:46:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22447 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mtr@eclipse.net) Received: from evolution.eclipse.net (mtr@bl1-196.eclipse.net [207.207.210.196]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id EAA25743 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 04:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 04:46:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew T. Ritchie" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ack. Looks to me like the DoJ has been bitten by the M$ bug too. Very Lynx unfriendly pages. Where is the justice in that? -- M.T. Ritchie *send me a neat .sig ;-)* On Tue, 19 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Holly shit. The government has evidence. Hard core evidence. Look > at the quotes they present in these paper. And I am sure that is just half > of it. This is not simple "he said" against "they said" war anymore. I'd > sell all my MS stock if I had any. > > -- Yan > > Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want > www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > > On Tue, 19 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > >Want to read what the DoJ *really* said? See the following links: > > > >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1763.htm > > > >and > > > >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm > > > >They explain the entire affair much more clearly than I can. > > > >--Brett > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 03:01:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA05481 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 03:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05469 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 03:01:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA22216; Tue, 19 May 1998 20:01:19 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980519200115.02641@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:01:15 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Apple to drop Rhapsody? References: <19980519104229.M427@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980519104229.M427@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, May 19, 1998 at 10:42:29AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 19, 1998 at 10:42:29AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > Seen this? Any comments? > > Greg > > ----- Forwarded message from Jerry_Dunham ----- > > > Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:09:55 -0500 > > > >> * APPLE EYES THE CONSUMER MARKET/KILLS OFF RHAPSODY PLAN...Apple > >> Computer Inc. unveiled a new computer called the iMac --with a price > >> of (US) $1,299 - as part of an effort to regain more of the consumer > >> market, according to an article last Thursday in THE NEW YORK TIMES. > >> Apple also introduced a line of Power Book notebooks designed around > >> its G3 microprocessor. > >> > >> Separately, Apple is abandoning its strategy of replacing its > >> Macintosh operating system with Rhapsody, It says that they are abandoning that strategy, not that they're abandoning Rhapsody. I have read a bit if the Rhapsody mailing list stuff before deleting it. Apparently the original idea was that Rhapsody would be all things to all people. Mac-like on the surface, unix-like underneath. I was amused to see that the people who only wanted to see easy stuff also wanted the power to do everything the Big Boys did because their GUI would make it easy. You know, turn sendmail into a GUI and everyone can do complex things with it, that sort of thing. Then somewhere along the line it was decided to keep MacOS for the everybodies and use Rhapsody for real work. And next thing (I deleted a lot of mail when -chat-advocacy dupes piled up) they're talking about this MacOS X. I haven't yet worked out what is new apart from the name. > >> according to an article in > >> THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. Instead, Apple is planning to add advanced > >> functions to the current software in an upgraded version called Mac OS > >> X. Steve Jobs announced the decision this week at a meeting of Apple > >> software developers in San Jose, California. According to the article, > >> Rhapsody is not being completely abandoned - it will be used on > >> data-storage servers starting this fall, rather than on mainstream > >> desktop machines. > > ----- End forwarded message ----- It looks like Rhapsody will still be plugging along, but in the hands of those most able to gain from it. For now. Plans seem to change unexpectedly, so who knows what'll be next. I do know that whenever my brother (a tight lipped Mac developer) comes around he seems more interested in fingering the unix books that he used to laugh at, and more willing to separate the operating system from the hardware in religious discussions. Whatever becomes of Rhapsody it will benefit a lot of people. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 06:25:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12251 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 06:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12146; Tue, 19 May 1998 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805191324.GAA12146@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this In-Reply-To: from "Jan B. Koum" at "May 19, 98 00:50:00 am" To: jkb@best.com (Jan B. Koum) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 06:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Holly shit. The government has evidence. Hard core evidence. Look > at the quotes they present in these paper. And I am sure that is just half > of it. This is not simple "he said" against "they said" war anymore. I'd > sell all my MS stock if I had any. > > -- Yan > > Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want > www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > > On Tue, 19 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > >Want to read what the DoJ *really* said? See the following links: > > > >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1763.htm > > > >and > > > >http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm > > > >They explain the entire affair much more clearly than I can. > > > >--Brett > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 06:49:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17415 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 06:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17403 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 06:49:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01309; Tue, 19 May 1998 07:49:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35618DD9.4D91C36D@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:49:13 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Atipa CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: IE4 vs. Netscape4, bug for bug References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Atipa wrote: > Well, I have little pity for the uninformed. I think IE4 is _way_ less > buggy (and bloated) than Netscape, and perhaps the difference is the > inside track on the structure of the OS. You've obviously never tried to develop an extensive browser-based user interface using both. Netscape is bigger, and slower, but it also crashes less and provides a much better JavaScript implementation. I ran across two seemingly valid JavaScript combinations that both ran on NS4, and crashed the browser in IE4 on NT4. Once even brought down NT. In general, if you push them very hard at all, ALL BROWSERS SUCK. They just do it in different directions. ;^) (Aren't you glad I changed the subject? I am. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 11:38:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14711 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14624 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15568; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:37:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA17231; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805191837.LAA17231@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: from Atipa at "May 18, 98 06:57:55 pm" To: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [[ ... ]] > > > > Frankly, putting IE into Win95 was the next logical step for Microsoft > > to make and I applaud Bill for having the guts to give the government > > the finger on this one. This government has no business saying what > > Microsoft can or cannot put into its software products and they have > > no business saying what can go into MY products either. I'm at least > > smart enough to see that I can't argue for my freedom and deny > > Microsoft's without becoming a complete hypocrite in the process. > > That's well and good, Jordan, but what M$ overloads into their OS isn't the crux of the matter. What is is how Microsoft forces vendors to handle only their products. The case is not about how one corporation has such a significant part of the market, but in how they _got_ there. Mobsters aren't the only ones to use brass knuckles. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 12:26:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25820 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:26:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from couatl.uchicago.edu (couatl.uchicago.edu [128.135.21.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25781 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sfarrell@couatl.uchicago.edu) Received: (from sfarrell@localhost) by couatl.uchicago.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16631; Tue, 19 May 1998 14:26:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from sfarrell) To: Sue Blake Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Apple to drop Rhapsody? References: <19980519104229.M427@freebie.lemis.com> <19980519200115.02641@welearn.com.au> From: stephen farrell Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 19 May 1998 14:26:14 -0500 In-Reply-To: Sue Blake's message of "Tue, 19 May 1998 20:01:15 +1000" Message-ID: <87vhr2hxk9.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake writes: > lot of mail when -chat-advocacy dupes piled up) they're talking about > this MacOS X. I haven't yet worked out what is new apart from the name. The macweek article I read suggested that what they're doing is porting the macos api's to mach and deemphasizing/dropping (?) the openstep/obj c stuff. This way they get the mach underpinnings and old mac applications just need a recompile and a few minor changes (they trimmed the api somewhat). As long as tevanian is vp of technology, i doubt mach will dissappear from their strategy (grep for Tevanian in /sys/vm). Also, as long as it's based on mach, then they'll probably keep the bsd4.4 compatibility--i read somewhere mach3.0, so that might mean something like a bsd server like lites--at least as an add-on. They just seem to be staying away from the "U" word, probably since it wasn't popular amongst most mac ppl. -- Steve Farrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 12:31:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26903 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [209.47.148.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26630 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:30:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by hub.org (8.8.8/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA20632 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 15:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:30:26 -0400 (EDT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Some reading material for you... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.salonmagazine.com/21st/feature/1998/05/cov_12feature.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 13:14:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04610 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:14:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04568 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA23732; Wed, 20 May 1998 06:13:43 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980520061339.46909@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 06:13:39 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: stephen farrell Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Apple to drop Rhapsody? References: <19980519104229.M427@freebie.lemis.com> <19980519200115.02641@welearn.com.au> <87vhr2hxk9.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <87vhr2hxk9.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu>; from stephen farrell on Tue, May 19, 1998 at 02:26:14PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 19, 1998 at 02:26:14PM -0500, stephen farrell wrote: > Sue Blake writes: > > > lot of mail when -chat-advocacy dupes piled up) they're talking about > > this MacOS X. I haven't yet worked out what is new apart from the name. > > The macweek article I read suggested that what they're doing is > porting the macos api's to mach and deemphasizing/dropping (?) the > openstep/obj c stuff. This way they get the mach underpinnings and > old mac applications just need a recompile and a few minor changes > (they trimmed the api somewhat). As long as tevanian is vp of > technology, i doubt mach will dissappear from their strategy (grep for > Tevanian in /sys/vm). Also, as long as it's based on mach, then > they'll probably keep the bsd4.4 compatibility--i read somewhere > mach3.0, so that might mean something like a bsd server like lites--at > least as an add-on. They just seem to be staying away from the "U" > word, probably since it wasn't popular amongst most mac ppl. That makes a lot of sense. Since perception, in all its meanings, has always been central to the Macintosh it's not surprising that it is the area where they have to tread carefully. It's starting to look more like the original plan now, with the pace of evolution slowed down to a level that allows more comfort. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 14:13:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15582 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 14:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15545 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 14:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13891; Tue, 19 May 1998 14:12:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Gary Kline cc: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 May 1998 11:37:15 PDT." <199805191837.LAA17231@athena.tera.com> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:12:58 -0700 Message-ID: <13887.895612378@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That's well and good, Jordan, but what M$ overloads into > their OS isn't the crux of the matter. What is is > how Microsoft forces vendors to handle only their products. Which has nothing at all to do with setting an unwonted legal precedent over what M$ is allowed to put in their OS and should never have been bundled into the same argument. If the DOJ wants to attack specific legal agreements with Dell or Compaq or whatever in regard to distribution then fine - there have *always* been restrictions on how one can buy and sell things in the common market which have very little to do with intellectual freedom (I don't think that anyone would argue that my freedom to buy Apple shares, for example, would be unduly infringed by the SEC if they found out I was getting insider info and shut me down). What I object to here is similar to what I object to about the war on drugs here in the U.S.: You don't give a man the right to knock your house down arbitrarily and at any time just because you'd like to hire him to get rid of your mice - that's clearly stupid. When we gave up our right to protest search and seizure without due cause in order that other people could go after the problem of a bunch of lawyers and actors sticking white powder up their noses, that was stupid too. Now we want the DOJ to tell Microsoft just what does and does not constitute a "fair" operating system so that we can be saved from yet another problem who's magnitude will be dwarfed by the problems resulting from its "solution" - just where does this stupidity end, anyway? Did we all just ingest a lot of lead paint chips in the 50's and 60's as children or what? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 15:17:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00780 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 15:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from andrsn.stanford.edu (andrsn@andrsn.Stanford.EDU [36.33.0.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00719 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 15:16:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu) Received: from localhost (andrsn@localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by andrsn.stanford.edu (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA29191 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 15:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:16:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Annelise Anderson Reply-To: Annelise Anderson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... NOT! In-Reply-To: <199805190203.UAA24651@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's fine to debate alternative remedies, but from an economic point of view (not necessarily always followed in law) Microsoft's operating system is a natural monopoly. I'm actually not sure whether that constitutes much of a danger or whether the remedies are good in terms of improving the situation for consumers, which is this issue my colleague Bob Hall will be talking about in an op-ed in tomorrow's New York Times. There are other operating systems, but the defining characteristic of the os is that it runs a particular set of programs.[1] For that set of programs, the MS os is pretty close to a monopoly: there's no very good competition (wine, bochs, freedows, pcemu)? And other operating systems are not a very good substitute for the MS os, given the importance of the programs it runs. The economic definition of a monopoly is that it has declining marginal costs (the cost of producing another unit). The MS cost is zero. Thus, the difficulty of competing with them: of putting enough money into the alternative and being able to sell the resulting product. A venture capitalist with whom I talked at dinner a few nights ago claimed that his firm is a major player in financing startups in the Internet field; and they won't have anything to do with an firm that is threatened by Microsoft (they will finance potential MS targets, of course--e.g., Hotmail). It's possible that government intervention here would be worse for this rapidly changing area than whatever MS can manage to do; but its potential is to raise the price, eventually, of the os itself. Note that where there are few alternatives (e.g., WordPerfect for a unix platform) prices are much higher than where there's competition (word processors for Windows). --Annelise [1] I know this isn't an engineering definition, but it is the practical effect of the engineering definition. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 17:29:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27212 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 17:29:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27172 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 17:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA19498; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:58:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980520095857.V427@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:58:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew T. Ritchie" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this References: <19980520090356.I427@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew T. Ritchie on Tue, May 19, 1998 at 07:47:13PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 May 1998 at 19:47:13 -0400, Matthew T. Ritchie wrote: > On Wed, 20 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Where does Lynx come into the picture? The question is, does it work >> with Netscape and IE? > > You're 100% correct. Last time I try to post at ~5am ;-) > btw, as far as I can tell it looks ok in Netscape. In fact, it appears to have hard line breaks. When I printed it out, I got the long/short line syndrome. > Don't have IE though. I would hope not :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 17:57:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01999 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 17:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01979 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 17:57:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA19111; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:03:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980520090356.I427@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:03:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew T. Ritchie" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew T. Ritchie on Tue, May 19, 1998 at 04:46:00AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 May 1998 at 4:46:00 -0400, Matthew T. Ritchie wrote: > On Tue, 19 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> On Tue, 19 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: >> >>> Want to read what the DoJ *really* said? See the following links: >>> >>> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1763.htm >>> >>> and >>> >>> http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm >>> >>> They explain the entire affair much more clearly than I can. >> >> Holly shit. The government has evidence. Hard core evidence. Look >> at the quotes they present in these paper. And I am sure that is just half >> of it. This is not simple "he said" against "they said" war anymore. I'd >> sell all my MS stock if I had any. > Ack. Looks to me like the DoJ has been bitten by the M$ bug too. Very Lynx > unfriendly pages. Where is the justice in that? Where does Lynx come into the picture? The question is, does it work with Netscape and IE? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 17:58:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02241 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 17:58:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02149 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 17:57:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id RAA26938; Tue, 19 May 1998 17:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:57:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <8195-Tue19May1998181723-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 19 May 1998, Kriston J. Rehberg wrote: >Unfortunately, this Majordomo list server isn't configured to reply >JUST to the list for whatever reason. [snip] >Why use Majordomo? *Sigh* > >Kris > >-- >Kriston J. Rehberg >AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ > Why use AOL? *Sigh* -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 21:02:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04777 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:02:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04753 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:02:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23773; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:01:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: HighWind Software commercial news servers for FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See http://www.highwind.com/trials.html if you want to download a 30-day free eval copy of any three of their products (Cyclone, Typhoon, or Breeze). ------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:46:35 GMT From: HighWind Software Information Message-ID: <35570C57.4FE41BAC@highwind.com> Newsgroups: news.software.nntp Organization: HighWind Software, Inc. Subject: NEW Usenet Server Software New Usenet Server Software from HighWind Software http://www.highwind.com/ HighWind Software, the makers of the Cyclone NewsRouter, announce the general availability of their Typhoon and Breeze NewsServer products for Solaris, Solaris-x86, Irix, and a BETA version for FreeBSD. (Ports for Digital UNIX, Linux, and HPUX are underway.) Typhoon and Breeze are carrier-class, high-performance, low-maintenance news servers. These products are suitable for organizations seeking reliable, easy-to-use, scalable, fully-supported commercial solutions for running their portion of USENET. These products join Cyclone in wide-spread use at ISP's and USENET resellers. We invite you to perform an evaluation. Advanced features include virtual servers, multi-terabyte spool capacity, compression, cross-server article number synchronization, flexible authentication, plug-in SPAM filters, and post filtering. For more details and FREE fully functional evaluation copies, visit the HighWind Web Site at http://www.highwind.com/ Pricing starts at $500.00 for Breeze. Contact "sales@highwind.com" for additional information and quotes. HighWind Software believes strongly in good USENET practices. For that reason, this message will NOT be periodically reposted. -- "HighWind Software - Expect the best, Deserve no less." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 19 22:31:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16317 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 22:31:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.eclipse.net (root@mail.eclipse.net [207.207.192.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16308 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 22:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mtr@eclipse.net) Received: from evolution.eclipse.net (mtr@kearny-dialup-27.superlink.net [207.76.70.36]) by mail.eclipse.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA20758; Tue, 19 May 1998 19:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:47:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew T. Ritchie" To: Greg Lehey cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this In-Reply-To: <19980520090356.I427@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tue, 19 May 1998 at 4:46:00 -0400, Matthew T. Ritchie wrote: > > On Tue, 19 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > >> On Tue, 19 May 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > >> --snip-- > Where does Lynx come into the picture? The question is, does it work > with Netscape and IE? > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > You're 100% correct. Last time I try to post at ~5am ;-) btw, as far as I can tell it looks ok in Netscape. Don't have IE though. Matthew t. Ritchie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 00:11:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02949 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02908 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:11:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07314; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805200711.AAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 May 1998 14:12:58 PDT." <13887.895612378@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:11:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > another problem who's magnitude will be dwarfed by the problems > resulting from its "solution" - just where does this stupidity end, > anyway? Did we all just ingest a lot of lead paint chips in the 50's > and 60's as children or what? :-) > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business pratice? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 03:28:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA06826 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 03:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA06816 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 03:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA10150; Wed, 20 May 1998 06:28:00 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:30:35 GMT Message-ID: <3563b07a.319982925@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199805200711.AAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> In-Reply-To: <199805200711.AAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id DAA06817 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998 00:11:06 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business >pratice? Make an example of them. Padlock their doors and put them out of business forever. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 03:39:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA07994 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 03:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA07984 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 03:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07643; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:39:00 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA04803; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:39:00 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980520123859.03745@follo.net> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:38:59 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Karl Pielorz , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: talk (fwd) References: <3562A574.CE34E6EA@tdx.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3562A574.CE34E6EA@tdx.co.uk>; from Karl Pielorz on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:42:12AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I moved this to -chat. On Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:42:12AM +0100, Karl Pielorz wrote: > Is it me or is basically everyone here either a) Not a big fan of Intel > (strange considering what FreeBSD runs on ;-) I don't know of anybody outside the democode-on-PC scene that are fans of the Intel chips _at all_. > b) Prefers the Motorola? (I certainly do!), and / or c) Largely used to own, > program, hack on Amiga's? - or at least want FreeBSD to work as well as the > Amiga did Seems most people here are either old Unix-heads (who has been on Unix for 15 years or more) or old Amiga-users. Both experience and a committmend to excellence will bring you here ;-) > All way off topic but interesting following - maybe we should start > 'nostalgia-freebsd' mailing list? What've got -chat for? <-_^> Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 04:28:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17690 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 04:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.visint.co.uk (wakko.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA17670 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 04:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steve@visint.co.uk) Received: from dylan.visint.co.uk (dylan.visint.co.uk [194.207.134.180]) by mail.visint.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA21970; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:28:24 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:27:40 +0100 (BST) From: Stephen Roome To: Karl Pielorz cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: talk (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3562A574.CE34E6EA@tdx.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998, Karl Pielorz wrote: > Is it me or is basically everyone here either a) Not a big fan of Intel > (strange considering what FreeBSD runs on ;-) I would hazard a guess that the people who subscribe to hackers have more knowledge about what's actually in the box. Does that answer it ? Besides Intel now own the StrongARM, so we can forget than ever being used for anything more than a Washing Machine. ;) > b) Prefers the Motorola? (I certainly do!), and / or c) Largely used to own, > program, hack on Amiga's? - or at least want FreeBSD to work as well as the > Amiga did Hey, there were lots of platforms other than Amiga's, how about Atari's, the ST didn't do too bad for a while. In the UK Acorns were quite nice and at the time the IBM AT came out the ZX81 was a possible competitor. If you watch the industry for too long how can you like it when the worst contender wins just by better marketing. It's sort of sad. > All way off topic but interesting following - maybe we should start > 'nostalgia-freebsd' mailing list? Good point, I'll shut up now, but I cc'd to chat instead of hackers. Steve Steve Roome - Vision Interactive Ltd. Tel:+44(0)117 9730597 Home:+44(0)976 241342 WWW: http://dylan.visint.co.uk/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 05:37:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA28905 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA28898 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:36:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (root@[10.1.140.1]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id OAA14619; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:35:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (pc8811.gud.siemens.co.at [195.3.22.159]) by pc8811.gud.siemens.at (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05681; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:36:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980520123859.03745@follo.net> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:36:07 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Siemens Austria AG From: Marino Ladavac To: Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: talk (fwd) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Karl Pielorz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-May-98 Eivind Eklund wrote: > Seems most people here are either old Unix-heads (who has been on Unix > for 15 years or more) or old Amiga-users. Both experience and a > committmend to excellence will bring you here ;-) With all due respect, sir, I strongly disagree! old-unix-head and old-amiga-user is not nearly as either-or an issue as you imply :) FWIW, I'm an ex-amiga user since the amiga was the first affordable machine that could pre-emptively task-switch and had a reasonable IPC as well. Then came the L-word (everyone has a skeleton or two in his closet) because it was smaller than 386BSD, and then came the FreeBSD because it worked consistently (and was documented as well). /Marino To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 05:41:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29398 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:41:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29392 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:41:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id OAA06277; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:41:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:41:34 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nipping MS discussion in the bud: Read this References: <199805190651.AAA28087@lariat.lariat.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 20 May 1998 14:41:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Tue, 19 May 1998 00:51:13 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1763.htm > http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases3/micros/1762.htm Yeeech! Look at the source! -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 07:09:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08274 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hub.org (hub.org [209.47.148.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08259 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by hub.org (8.8.8/8.7.5) with SMTP id KAA23530 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:09:32 -0400 (EDT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Bet you didn't know... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bet you didn't know we were a "Linux-like operating system", eh? http://www.netnomics.com/linux/en/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 07:35:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11192 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:35:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11186 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03142; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:35:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3562EA20.88FEA191@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:35:12 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Monopolies? (Not about M$) References: <3561d69c.198654393@mail.cetlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly wrote: > Cisco has achieved 80% monopoly in the Internet router market, but > without using illegal tying contracts and other practices prohibited > by the antitrust laws. As long as they act lawfully while creating a > monopoly, the law does not judge it as bad. Cisco doesn't have anywhere near an 80% monopoly, depending on how you define "Internet router market". If you're talking about the backbone routers on the Internet, it's probably closer to 100%; if you're talking about the Internet as a whole, it's probably more like 60%. You raise an interesting point, though. Cisco has such a large market share, and a near deadlock on the backbone, because their products work. There are faster routers, and easier to setup and maintain routers, but Cisco was there first with the most. They've only recently begun to advertise their products outside the narrowly focused network trade rags, and don't seem to be making much headway with their new product lines. Cisco: who else COULD see their stock go up $3/share on the day AT&T announces 33% of their frame relay network is down because of a bug in Cisco's routers? Be afraid. Be very afraid. The basic reason why free market economies abhor monopolies is that competition makes EVERYONE (who survives) better. Lack of competition means lack of innovation and leads to shoddy products. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 07:56:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13353 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13343 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18475; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:56:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805201456.IAA18475@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:48:53 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Gary Kline From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <13887.895612378@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:12 PM 5/19/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >What I object to here is similar to what I object to about the war on >drugs here in the U.S.: You don't give a man the right to knock your >house down arbitrarily and at any time just because you'd like to hire >him to get rid of your mice - that's clearly stupid. When we gave up >our right to protest search and seizure without due cause in order >that other people could go after the problem of a bunch of lawyers and >actors sticking white powder up their noses, that was stupid too. Now >we want the DOJ to tell Microsoft just what does and does not >constitute a "fair" operating system.... Fair business practices and a "fair operating system" (whatever that means) are two very different things. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 08:34:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17276 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:34:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17257 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:34:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([204.148.100.2]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA28735 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:33:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:31:56 -0400 Message-ID: <3538-Wed20May1998113156-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: References: <8195-Tue19May1998181723-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jan B. Koum writes: > Why use AOL? *Sigh* Now, that was certainly appropriate. Kris -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 08:44:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18296 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18283 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09956 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805201544.IAA09956@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.moral-defense.org/home.html Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:44:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It is interesting that the Pro Microsoft Web Site is running Linux and Apache 8) The only thing missing from the web site is the powered by linux or linux logo... I thought the linux marketing hordes were not smart. Guess that I have been proven wrong. Naturally, a linux enthusiast didn't miss the opportunity to point out to a journalist that the www.moral-defense.org web site runs linux . See todays business section of the San Francisco News Paper. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 09:07:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21745 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20157; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 00:11:06 PDT." <199805200711.AAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:06:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > pratice? I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. People have spent a lot of time whining about the fact that Microsoft owns 80% of the desktops out there and that M$ is now the Big Bad Wolf who is crushing innovation and all these other scarey things, but they all conveniently ignore answering the biggest question of all: How did we get to this state in the first place? I've been in this biz more or less full-time since 1977, when I took my first job writing accounting applications in BASIC, and I've watched the entire process of Microsoft going from a 2-man company that wrote BASIC interpreters to the international powerhouse it is today. Some of this was due to luck and being in the right place at the right time, sure, but a lot more of it was due to a very simple fact which many in this discussion would probably really rather just ignore: Bill simply made fewer stupid mistakes than the rest of us. Don't get me wrong, I certainly remember Windows before 3.0 and M$'s disastrous foray into the world of hardware (and, more recently, packages like Microsoft Bob) as some of their bigger blunders - I'm hardly saying that M$ is infallible. What I'm saying is that while M$ might have made some big tactical mistakes along the way, their overall _strategy_ was sound and they stuck to it until they'd evolved their tactics to the point where they could properly execute that strategy. The rest of the software industry, by contrast, had no apparent strategy to speak of and could probably be best compared to the Austrian army after WW-I - dominated by generals and political leaders who still remembered the glorious days of mounted horse calvary charges and stubbornly stuck with them long after they had been rendered entirely obsolete by Maxim's new little toy. Why is that? Well, my theory is that since the 50's, programming and computers in general have been something of a black art, jealously guarded by high priests who wished only to be paid a reasonable wage and left in peace to play with their hi-tech toys. The whole messy issue of _users_ was something which the priesthood only barely tolerated, and they certainly never put a lot of time and energy into empowering those users to be able to live without them someday. Into this rarified atmosphere comes Bill, and he somehow works it out that even though the overall goal of empowering users to directly grapple with these machines may be somewhat premature, it's still something they desire and are willing to pay big bucks for. So, rather than investing a lot of time and energy into building better and better software engines, like the Unix crowd is doing, Bill focuses instead on the "outer shell", that 10% of the software were the user spends 90% of their time, and puts all of his resources into improving the man/machine interface on *commodity hardware*. This is a key point which Apple missed - they got the man/machine bit very right then screwed up by trying to mate it exclusively to proprietary hardware - a mistake which M$ had already made and learned from earlier and didn't need to repeat. Again, Microsoft made some tactical mistakes along the way but their overall strategy was exactly the right one for making a lot of money and that's exactly what they did. The rest of us just watched and thought, with our engineering minds, how silly these Microsoft people were for making all these tactical blunders and we never really focused on what the overall strategy was supposed to be, hell, I don't think any of us wanted to even _think_ about strategy - we were having just too much fun playing with all this new tech. So, I look at M$ today and I'm naturally saddened by the kind of software that 80% of the world now has to live with, but who do I blame for this? Us. Only us. We let it happen and now we're complaining, far after the fact, that somebody ought to protect us from the big bad wolf we ourselves let into the house. Bah! How is that people are so frickin' BLIND? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 09:17:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23179 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:17:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23152 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10200; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:17:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805201617.JAA10200@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 09:06:48 PDT." <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:17:07 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > from the big bad wolf we ourselves let into the house. Bah! How is > that people are so frickin' BLIND? I am not blind just want to take advantage of the current political scenario to further the cause of FreeBSD. Can you blame for being opportunistic at least in this case 8) Additionally, I am hoping that the industry has learned their lesson with Microsoft and that we can start anew with an OS such as FreeBSD. The question now is , can we take advantage of the current scenario and how? Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 09:57:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.brann.org ([166.84.191.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00879 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:57:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jbrann@freebie.brann.org) Received: (from jbrann@localhost) by freebie.brann.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA03851; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:57:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jbrann) From: John Brann Message-Id: <199805201657.MAA03851@freebie.brann.org> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 20, 98 09:06:48 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: Not while I'm at home X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote... > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > pratice? > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. > > People have spent a lot of time whining about the fact that Microsoft > owns 80% of the desktops out there and that M$ is now the Big Bad Wolf > who is crushing innovation and all these other scarey things, but they > all conveniently ignore answering the biggest question of all: > How did we get to this state in the first place? > > I've been in this biz more or less full-time since 1977, when I took > my first job writing accounting applications in BASIC, and I've > watched the entire process of Microsoft going from a 2-man company > that wrote BASIC interpreters to the international powerhouse it is > today. Some of this was due to luck and being in the right place at > the right time, sure, but a lot more of it was due to a very simple > fact which many in this discussion would probably really rather just > ignore: Bill simply made fewer stupid mistakes than the rest of us. Hmm. You have seven years on me, I was sending punched cards to Imperial College and 'borrowing' teletype time on the Manchester Polytechnic MAXIMOP system in '77. Nonetheless, I have a different perspective here. I have been involved in building business software for big corporations since 1984. Since 1985 I have worked for small companies selling Mainframe / Minicomputer / UNIX / NT software. I've always been a developer, but I've been close to the customers as they have made purchases of significant size. Over this period of time, I have come to the conclusion that the ONLY reason that someone in a corporation spends a significant amount of money ($100k or more) on hardware or software is FEAR. They have to be more frightened of not buying than of the consequences of a bad purchase before they spend. As a consequence, relatively small (apparent) differences in product become enormously important and quality becomes irrelevant. IBM introduces a PC. Everyone knows that there is a 'PC revolution'. Not buying PCs makes the buyer look like a dunderhead. Who's PC to buy? Well, IBM's obviously, because the buyer knows the name, and they are a 'professional' organization. What OS to buy with the PC - well, there's one being (practically) given away, called DOS or I could pay a substantial cash premium for CP/M which the salesman says is no different. One is branded by IBM. Hmm, tough call. At this point in history, nothing underhand was, apparently, being done. Perhaps if Apple had spent big bucks on building SNA networking and IBM terminal emulators, there would have been a different history of personal computing. As it is, the big corporations were trying to leverage their investments and bought from IBM because they believed that, sooner or later, their products would work together. >From this point on, Microsoft only ever had to be a follower. Spot a good product or two, make an inferior version, leverage your existing position. It worked for Word processing, Spreadsheets and C/C++ Development tools. Sure, Word is a pretty nifty WP system now, but remember WfW 1.2 and WP51? OK, Excel is pretty good, now, but what about 1-2-3? Does anyone remember MS C Version 7? Looking at the DOJ documentation, I see the Netscape story as an extension of this pattern. The difference being that MS perceived a much more fundamental shift in the browser world. Apps run on an OS. Java offers the possibility of marginalising the OS, and making it replaceable by putting the browser in between. PANIC. And the result of the panic - stepping over the line. > > Don't get me wrong, I certainly remember Windows before 3.0 and M$'s > disastrous foray into the world of hardware (and, more recently, > packages like Microsoft Bob) as some of their bigger blunders - I'm > hardly saying that M$ is infallible. What I'm saying is that while M$ > might have made some big tactical mistakes along the way, their > overall _strategy_ was sound and they stuck to it until they'd evolved > their tactics to the point where they could properly execute that > strategy. The rest of the software industry, by contrast, had no > apparent strategy to speak of and could probably be best compared to > the Austrian army after WW-I - dominated by generals and political > leaders who still remembered the glorious days of mounted horse > calvary charges and stubbornly stuck with them long after they had > been rendered entirely obsolete by Maxim's new little toy. > > Why is that? Well, my theory is that since the 50's, programming and > computers in general have been something of a black art, jealously > guarded by high priests who wished only to be paid a reasonable wage > and left in peace to play with their hi-tech toys. The whole messy > issue of _users_ was something which the priesthood only barely > tolerated, and they certainly never put a lot of time and energy into > empowering those users to be able to live without them someday. Into > this rarified atmosphere comes Bill, and he somehow works it out that > even though the overall goal of empowering users to directly grapple > with these machines may be somewhat premature, it's still something > they desire and are willing to pay big bucks for. Actually, here I disagree, too. My fourteen years of commercial development have left me with a profound sense of the difference between software built for a purpose and software built for sale. Software built for a purpose does a job at all costs. Additional features like user-friendliness are secondary. Software built for sale is different. It is prepared to compromise stability, functionality, even effectiveness to provide sufficient comfort for a fearful buyer. That's why AOL is 'better' than Erol's. That's why NT is 'better' than UNIX, and why Windows 3.0 was 'better' than the Mac. > > So, rather than investing a lot of time and energy into building > better and better software engines, like the Unix crowd is doing, Bill > focuses instead on the "outer shell", that 10% of the software were > the user spends 90% of their time, and puts all of his resources into > improving the man/machine interface on *commodity hardware*. This is > a key point which Apple missed - they got the man/machine bit very > right then screwed up by trying to mate it exclusively to proprietary > hardware - a mistake which M$ had already made and learned from > earlier and didn't need to repeat. > > Again, Microsoft made some tactical mistakes along the way but their > overall strategy was exactly the right one for making a lot of money > and that's exactly what they did. The rest of us just watched and > thought, with our engineering minds, how silly these Microsoft people > were for making all these tactical blunders and we never really > focused on what the overall strategy was supposed to be, hell, I don't > think any of us wanted to even _think_ about strategy - we were having > just too much fun playing with all this new tech. I'll grant this point. Playing with the new stuff is what keeps _me_ sane. > > So, I look at M$ today and I'm naturally saddened by the kind of > software that 80% of the world now has to live with, but who do I > blame for this? Us. Only us. We let it happen and now we're > complaining, far after the fact, that somebody ought to protect us > from the big bad wolf we ourselves let into the house. Bah! How is > that people are so frickin' BLIND? Too harsh, I think. The BBW got there by inventing a new door, while we weren't looking. I'm in favour of breaking up MS. I don't see what harm could come of it. I do see, and have seen what harm comes from leaving it alone. This itself isn't enough reason to do it of course, the evidence presented will, hopefully, decide the result. The complaints look damning enough to me, no doubt there will be arguments over authenticity. I'm sorry to have been so long-winded, but I hope we get to learn a lesson here and I hope that the end result is that software built for sale gets closer to software built for a purpose. John > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, finger jbrann@doorman.brann.org for pgp public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 10:24:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06891 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06876 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20562; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:24:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805201724.LAA20562@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:24:11 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Amancio Hasty From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:06 AM 5/20/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. >People have spent a lot of time whining about the fact that Microsoft >owns 80% of the desktops out there and that M$ is now the Big Bad Wolf >who is crushing innovation and all these other scarey things, but they >all conveniently ignore answering the biggest question of all: >How did we get to this state in the first place? Simple. IBM handed its near-monopoly to Microsoft, which has in turn perpetuated and extended it via unethical and illegal business practices. >I've been in this biz more or less full-time since 1977, when I took >my first job writing accounting applications in BASIC, and I've >watched the entire process of Microsoft going from a 2-man company >that wrote BASIC interpreters to the international powerhouse it is >today. Some of this was due to luck and being in the right place at >the right time, sure, but a lot more of it was due to a very simple >fact which many in this discussion would probably really rather just >ignore: Bill simply made fewer stupid mistakes than the rest of us. What you mean "us," white man? Also, it's not true that Bill made fewer mistakes than anyone else. Microsoft has had DOZENS of "flops." For most companies, especially in the early days of computing, one "flop" meant the end -- curtains. No second chances. But Microsoft had DOS -- its cash cow -- to finance its failures. So, unlike any other company in the industry, it had the LUXURY of being able to be almost as stupid as it could possibly have wanted. It made no difference. >Don't get me wrong, I certainly remember Windows before 3.0 and M$'s >disastrous foray into the world of hardware (and, more recently, >packages like Microsoft Bob) as some of their bigger blunders - I'm >hardly saying that M$ is infallible. What I'm saying is that while M$ >might have made some big tactical mistakes along the way, their >overall _strategy_ was sound and they stuck to it until they'd evolved >their tactics to the point where they could properly execute that >strategy. Again, that's because they COULD. >The rest of the software industry, by contrast, had no >apparent strategy to speak of and could probably be best compared to >the Austrian army after WW-I - dominated by generals and political >leaders who still remembered the glorious days of mounted horse >calvary charges and stubbornly stuck with them long after they had >been rendered entirely obsolete by Maxim's new little toy. Microsoft doesn't either. It blunders all the time. The only difference is that it can fall back on those cash cows. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 10:35:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08560 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08550 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:35:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26374; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:35:03 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA07125; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:35:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980520193501.22715@follo.net> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:35:01 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Atipa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... References: <199805200711.AAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:06:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:06:48AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > pratice? > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. > > People have spent a lot of time whining about the fact that Microsoft > owns 80% of the desktops out there and that M$ is now the Big Bad Wolf > who is crushing innovation and all these other scarey things, but they > all conveniently ignore answering the biggest question of all: > How did we get to this state in the first place? A large part of it is due to illegal licensing, and killing off products on competing platforms. Other parts of it is due to MS doing the right things (and though I think the tradeoffs suck, I agree that they've done many things right marketingwise) user-interface-wise. However, the fact that they got part of the way by doing things better than other people does NOT mean that they should be allowed to use illegal tie-ins to close those areas where people actually do things better than them. Microsoft has been doing this for a long while, and they are doing more of it lately. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 10:45:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10430 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10392 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:45:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26720; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:45:32 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA07190; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980520194531.41832@follo.net> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:31 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Amancio Hasty , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.moral-defense.org/home.html References: <199805201544.IAA09956@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805201544.IAA09956@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 08:44:06AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 20, 1998 at 08:44:06AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > It is interesting that the Pro Microsoft Web Site is running > Linux and Apache 8) The only thing missing from the web site > is the powered by linux or linux logo... For a laught, try replacing 'Windows' with 'a gun' in most of the arguments on that page. It _really_ show how ridiculous they are. Eivind, who wonders if the person that made that site was serious... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 11:05:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14278 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:05:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14260 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id LAA10380; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:04:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:04:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: The Hermit Hacker cc: Chris Peiffer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bet you didn't know... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org HAHAHAHA... some people are born with no clue at all. "FreeBSD is a Linux-like software with a good reputation for network management or servers." -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Wed, 20 May 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > >Bet you didn't know we were a "Linux-like operating system", eh? > >http://www.netnomics.com/linux/en/ > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 11:14:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16373 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16259; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:13:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805201813.LAA16259@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 20, 98 09:06:48 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > pratice? > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. [snip a lot about microsoft] the DOJ should strive to break microsoft into two companies: an operating system firm and an applications firm. microsoft uses its os to force applcations upon users. microsoft has stolen apps that it failed to write. some of these have been added to the os product package. separating the os from the apps, and verifing that os information was provided to all apps developers would allow competition to exist without microsoft holding veto power. (how many remember disassembling DOS to learn how to print while doing something else at the same time ;) there is no competition in desktop os....as you have said many times, jordan. let the os become the equivalent of the long distance carrier and the apps the equivalent of the local phone companies. the breakup of att is the example here. to address the immediate issue: the DOJ should not allow that monopoly power to be used to create a more favorable enviroment for IE than for netscape. we saw this trick with regard to stacker. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 11:27:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19659 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19464 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20859; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:25:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 11:24:11 MDT." <199805201724.LAA20562@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:25:57 -0700 Message-ID: <20855.895688757@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Indeed. :) > Simple. IBM handed its near-monopoly to Microsoft, which has in turn > perpetuated and extended it via unethical and illegal business practices. Far too simplistic. People have been handed staggering inheiritances before, and far more directly, and blown them quite handily. It takes a bit more than sheer luck to occupy a postition where everyone else is sniping at you and would love to have a piece (if not all) of your revenues. Remember something called VisiCalc for Visi Corp? In the 80's, there was a time when they could do no wrong and had plenty of cash coming out of that cow. Then they failed to follow on with their next trick and we all know what their competition did to them after that. Microsoft could have stumbled and gone down for the count any number of times, but they kept bouncing back with more marketable ideas (which were also well marketed - a crucial distinction) and it's really _that_ which has perpetuated Microsoft. Sure, they've also acted like total sharks and probably committed more than one illegal (to say nothing of "unethical") act in getting to where they are today, but I don't see anything particularly damning or even new about that. You think IT firms like Honeywell and GTE get all those fat military contracts by being just really swell companies which the government happens to like? Hardly. We just focus on Microsoft's larceny a lot more because of their position in the consumer's eye. Most folks could give a fig about who builds our air defense computers or writes software to process election results in Brazil, so all the nasty briberly/strongarm tactics with procurement in those markets go largely unnoticed. Welcome to capitalism. > What you mean "us," white man? Us. Us, the people who were around in the late 70's and 80's and fought in the Unix / UI wars which spent so much of our energies arguing things like OpenLook vs Motif while Billy was busily banging out interfaces for the rest of humanity. Unless you yourself were frozen and in a state of suspended animation during this time then you were either just as misguided/apathetic as the rest of us or you were totally ineffective at communicating and directing a more enlightened approach to dealing with this problem - I'll let you take your pick of sins. :-) > Also, it's not true that Bill made fewer mistakes than anyone else. > Microsoft has had DOZENS of "flops." For most companies, especially Perhaps I should have phrased that differently: "Fewer strategic mistakes." He made plenty of tactical ones, yes, but his overall strategy would appear to have been consistently sound or he wouldn't be where he is today. Again, it's not all just luck as some of his more sour-grapes detractors would have us believe. It took some sort of overall vision to continue to pound on Windows and take a number of risks in essentially _forcing_ the user base to adopt to it. Doesn't anyone remember all the industry naysayers predicting that Windows would be Microsoft's Waterloo? That DOS was simply too powerful and did everything the novice user might possibly want to do anyway, making Windows a solution in search of a problem and a sure-fire flop? Well, as history now shows, M$ stuck with it despite considerable adverse publicity and several initial versions which didn't even work and they kept pushing until everyone suddenly woke up one day and said "Windows! What a fine idea! We'll have some of that!" Luck? I don't think so. I see it as tenacious pursuit of something which was rightly pegged as the next necessary bit of enabling technology for mass-market acceptance, and something which takes a lot more will than luck. Of course, we Unix-heads all pooh-poohed the value of this at the time and pointed to our much more elegant X Window System solution as the answer to everything and, of course, we got our fannies whacked but good - we'd totally missed the point. I also see a similar danger with the server, to be honest. We've sort of retreated on the desktop front and grudgingly admitted that maybe Windows has the desktop now but we have the SERVER, dammit, and that still makes us #1! Don't kid yourselves. Without any sort of overall strategy, and strategy has always been somewhat lacking in the Unix world, any initial advantage swiftly erodes in the face of an enemy who _does_ have a strategy and is constantly maneuvering for a better position which will allow him to nullify your advantage and use his own strength in a follow-up move which overwhelms your defenses. NT is taking a lot of heat over its lack of remote management capabilities and general instability, but getting complacent about this is the last thing we need to do. Whether M$ got to where it is today purely on the strength of a single "cash cow" is also more or less irrelevant since that's most certainly not the case today. Today's enemy is far more versatile and has shown itself, as it did with IE, able to react far more quickly than anyone would have given such a large entity credit for. I have a very healthy respect for Microsoft as a competitor, whatever I might think about the technical quality of its products. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 11:33:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21164 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20998 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-177.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.133.243]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id NAA20541; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:32:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01433; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:32:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980520183236.ZM1432@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:32:36 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 20, 9:06am) References: <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 20, 9:06am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > pratice? > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. > I just hate to get back into this, but a few comments are in order. Your example of how things became the way they are is correct as far as it goes. However, part of the reason M$ is what they are is their use of predatory marketing tactics and squeezing the life blood out of their competitors. That is exactly what unbridled capitalism is all about. The elementry economic model of the free market is nothing more than an abstraction of how things work in an ideal market situation. The key word is ideal. Looking back to the later part of the last century and the early part of this one, you had robber barrons running rough shod over everyone, by raising entry levels for competition. This is the very definition of monopoly, the large firms dictate the market conditions and who does what not the market itself. This is the very opposite of the free market condition. That is the issue with M$. They are dictating what gets sold and who sells it, or conversly what gets developed, on what platform it's developed on ,and on what platform it runs on. That's market control, the buyer has virtually no say in what gets implemented. It is either the M$ solution or nothing. You either develop to the M$ standard or you don't develop at all. All of this adds up to the safe solution in the bet your job corporate world where the rubber hits the road. That was where IBM was before they messed themselves up in not embracing the PC world as fast as they should have. M$ got MS-DOS by default from IBM's mistake, and that was their cash cow to allow them to grab the desktop market by the throat. Look what they did with OS/2, they developed an inferior OS (NT) and killed a superior OS with crap using their OS dominance and market power. And don't make the case that that is IBM's fault totally, when M$ closed off the API's for Win 32. Everything they produce is proprietary. Yet you wish to lament your lack of freedom. Sorry Jordan, as much as I admire what you and the FreeBSD team are doing and stand for, you can't have you bread buttered on both sides. Eventually you number turns up on the hit list. There is one opportunity on the burner now to break the strangle hold on the desktop OS, and M$ is putting a lot of bucks into fragmenting java to prevent that from happening. Leave M$ alone as you suggest, and we all can get jobs doing sloppy coding in VB on crap system software. Not in my life time. Frank > People have spent a lot of time whining about the fact that Microsoft > owns 80% of the desktops out there and that M$ is now the Big Bad Wolf > who is crushing innovation and all these other scarey things, but they > all conveniently ignore answering the biggest question of all: > How did we get to this state in the first place? > > I've been in this biz more or less full-time since 1977, when I took > my first job writing accounting applications in BASIC, and I've > watched the entire process of Microsoft going from a 2-man company > that wrote BASIC interpreters to the international powerhouse it is > today. Some of this was due to luck and being in the right place at > the right time, sure, but a lot more of it was due to a very simple > fact which many in this discussion would probably really rather just > ignore: Bill simply made fewer stupid mistakes than the rest of us. > > Don't get me wrong, I certainly remember Windows before 3.0 and M$'s > disastrous foray into the world of hardware (and, more recently, > packages like Microsoft Bob) as some of their bigger blunders - I'm > hardly saying that M$ is infallible. What I'm saying is that while M$ > might have made some big tactical mistakes along the way, their > overall _strategy_ was sound and they stuck to it until they'd evolved > their tactics to the point where they could properly execute that > strategy. The rest of the software industry, by contrast, had no > apparent strategy to speak of and could probably be best compared to > the Austrian army after WW-I - dominated by generals and political > leaders who still remembered the glorious days of mounted horse > calvary charges and stubbornly stuck with them long after they had > been rendered entirely obsolete by Maxim's new little toy. > > Why is that? Well, my theory is that since the 50's, programming and > computers in general have been something of a black art, jealously > guarded by high priests who wished only to be paid a reasonable wage > and left in peace to play with their hi-tech toys. The whole messy > issue of _users_ was something which the priesthood only barely > tolerated, and they certainly never put a lot of time and energy into > empowering those users to be able to live without them someday. Into > this rarified atmosphere comes Bill, and he somehow works it out that > even though the overall goal of empowering users to directly grapple > with these machines may be somewhat premature, it's still something > they desire and are willing to pay big bucks for. > > So, rather than investing a lot of time and energy into building > better and better software engines, like the Unix crowd is doing, Bill > focuses instead on the "outer shell", that 10% of the software were > the user spends 90% of their time, and puts all of his resources into > improving the man/machine interface on *commodity hardware*. This is > a key point which Apple missed - they got the man/machine bit very > right then screwed up by trying to mate it exclusively to proprietary > hardware - a mistake which M$ had already made and learned from > earlier and didn't need to repeat. > > Again, Microsoft made some tactical mistakes along the way but their > overall strategy was exactly the right one for making a lot of money > and that's exactly what they did. The rest of us just watched and > thought, with our engineering minds, how silly these Microsoft people > were for making all these tactical blunders and we never really > focused on what the overall strategy was supposed to be, hell, I don't > think any of us wanted to even _think_ about strategy - we were having > just too much fun playing with all this new tech. > > So, I look at M$ today and I'm naturally saddened by the kind of > software that 80% of the world now has to live with, but who do I > blame for this? Us. Only us. We let it happen and now we're > complaining, far after the fact, that somebody ought to protect us > from the big bad wolf we ourselves let into the house. Bah! How is > that people are so frickin' BLIND? > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 11:39:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22938 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22809 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21001; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Karl Pielorz cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: talk (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 10:42:12 BST." <3562A574.CE34E6EA@tdx.co.uk> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:38:44 -0700 Message-ID: <20996.895689524@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > All way off topic but interesting following - maybe we should start > 'nostalgia-freebsd' mailing list? Whatever we do, we need to redirect this discussion away from -hackers and into -chat at this point. :) I'll open the round of nostalgia with some comments on how freaking NICE the NS32K architecture was. And yeah, I own a PC532. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 11:54:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26819 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26509 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21097; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 18:32:36 -0000." <980520183236.ZM1432@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:53:00 -0700 Message-ID: <21093.895690380@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > and market power. And don't make the case that that is IBM's fault totally, > when M$ closed off the API's for Win 32. Everything they produce is > proprietary. Yet you wish to lament your lack of freedom. Sorry Jordan, as > much as I admire what you and the FreeBSD team are doing and stand for, you > can't have you bread buttered on both sides. Eventually you number turns up > on the hit list. Wait a second, since when have I been lamenting that Microsoft was infringing my freedoms? I also rather strenuously object to your accusation that I'm wanting my "bread buttered on both sides" since that's specifically the mindset I've been arguing AGAINST for the last 4 rounds here or so. Either you have misunderstood me rather drastically or aren't actually reading what I've been saying with anything approaching the proper care. To put it another way, I don't really _care_ whether my number comes up on any "Microsoft hit list" since I've been operating under the continual assumption that such a thing would happen anyway, either directly or indirectly as the result of some larger campaign on their part. All I want is the freedom to fight my own battles, however doomed or outnumbered my side may be, and any help from the government is help that I don't need AT ALL thank you very much! The government already has enough guns pointed at my head without me giving them another one to "protect" me with. FWIW, I don't believe in anti-trust laws either. If it's in mankind's nature to create and support robber barons in their pillaging then mankind deserves whatever it gets, period. This whole legal system for regulating our own worst impulses has always struck me as equivalent to hitting oneself repeatedly with a hammer and then pointing to the first-aid kit every time someone comes up and asks you what you're doing about this weird compulsion you have to harm yourself. It's not solving the fundamental problem and it's not going to get any closer to solving the fundamental problem as you make it more and more complex and intrusive. Maybe that makes me an Anarchist. I don't really mind. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 12:19:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03583 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:19:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03497 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21353 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: I have seen the future of computing, and its name is AcuCobol.. Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 12:19:09 -0700 Message-ID: <21349.895691949@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.acucobol.com/Products/ACUCOBOL-85/A85-23WP.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 12:42:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09583 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:42:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.brann.org ([166.84.191.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09439; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:42:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jbrann@freebie.brann.org) Received: (from jbrann@localhost) by freebie.brann.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA04067; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:42:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jbrann) From: John Brann Message-Id: <199805201942.PAA04067@freebie.brann.org> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <199805201813.LAA16259@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at "May 20, 98 11:13:26 am" To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organisation: Not while I'm at home X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler wrote... > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > > pratice? > > > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. > > [snip a lot about microsoft] > > the DOJ should strive to break microsoft into two companies: > an operating system firm and an applications firm. microsoft > uses its os to force applcations upon users. microsoft > has stolen apps that it failed to write. some of these > have been added to the os product package. > [SNIP] No, I have to disagree. two is not enough. I'd suggest at least four. Split 9[58] from NT - make them compete. It might well end up with 9[58] ruling the desktop and NT becoming a server, but that would only be good. There would be reasons for NT to support Mac clients, and 9[58] to support UNIX servers. On the App side, split products like Works from the Office bloatware. Maybe we'll get a real chance to choose between industrial strength and 'cheap and cheerful'. One other result (OK, I'm being optimistic here) is that the IPC-like mechanisms in the Windows world (DDE / OLE / COM / DCOM) would need to become more stable for these products to be viable. An, what the heck, maybe the new OSes would have reasons to support 3rd-party standards with more than press releases... John -- Unreal City, Under the brown fog of a winter dawn, finger jbrann@doorman.brann.org for pgp public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 12:42:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09644 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:42:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from caladan.tdx.co.uk (caladan.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09560 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk) Received: from tdx.co.uk (lorca-tx.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.242]) by caladan.tdx.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28391; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:42:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk) Message-ID: <35633202.C8E75F9B@tdx.co.uk> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:41:54 +0100 From: Karl Pielorz Organization: TDX X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: talk (fwd) References: <20996.895689524@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > All way off topic but interesting following - maybe we should start > > 'nostalgia-freebsd' mailing list? > > Whatever we do, we need to redirect this discussion away from -hackers > and into -chat at this point. :) > > I'll open the round of nostalgia with some comments on how freaking > NICE the NS32K architecture was. And yeah, I own a PC532. > > - Jordan I think it's already got there ;-) Seriously though I think someone has already pointed out we shouldn't get to embroiled in 'the good old days', there gone - and although 'tis good to reminisce it's not going to help us now :-( Still them 'were the days', programmers were real programmers (even if they only thought that because 1 person could write an operating system in a couple of weeks, or a _whole_ game single handed ;-), Aren't I meant to say something like "And small furry creatures were real small furry creatures?" (Someone here must have heard of Douglas Adams? ;-) ps. What exactly is a PC532? Regards, Karl To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:00:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13696 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13406 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14216; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <018d01bd8427$ccf45ec0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Jan B. Koum " , "Atipa" Cc: Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:44:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org But its not a monopoly! I mean if it were a monopoly then there would be no FreeBSD, OS/2, SCO, Linux, ......I can go on and on like this if you like :) And if your talking about Browsers then what about Netscape? are they not a browser maker along with so many others? I am a Win98 beta tester and have NEVER seen where Win98/IE4 has EVER interfered with loading and running of Netscape. And that thing about the windows startup having IE in it is garbage! Anyone who wants to can have that replaced along with any other "offending" text/pics. This whole DOJ thing is pointless and will not get anywhere. I am not worried about the Govt. coming in and regulating Windows or any other company for the time being. But if it does happen to MS it will happen to others. Jason -----Original Message----- From: Jan B. Koum To: Atipa Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > Stop smoking crack. This is not about Bill Gates having too much >money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following >keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. > Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. >Monopoly should be stopped. > >-- Yan > >Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want >www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > >On Mon, 18 May 1998, Atipa wrote: > >> >> >> >> >>I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice >>Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think >>Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. >> >>We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want >>to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money >>you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? >> >>I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and >>poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and >>what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and >>forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or >>should not try to do? >> >>Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US >>Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for >>telling them where to go with their suggesions: >> >> * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means >> of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can >> understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the >> Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really >> cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should >> be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps >> or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) >> >> * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all >> competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is >> entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having >> to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. >> As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product >> win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this >> ordeal, not Microsoft. >> >> * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and >> competitors can customize their visual. How would all the >> developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed >> the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. >> Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes >> supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own >> interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving >> accurate, detailed instructions. >> >>We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They >>do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible >>precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. >> >>They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts >>of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing >>out. >> >>The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is >>freedom. I support Bill Gates in this issue, and hope you will as well. >>Hopefully, this product will fail all on its own, and open the doors to >>good programmers all over the world, without US ecomonic intervention. >> >>I hope you all can see through this junk. Liberty must be preserved. Let >>the best products win, and let MS die on its own two feet. >> >>Kevin >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >> > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:01:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13806 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13714 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0.Beta7/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id VAA21227 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:59:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id VAA26285 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:45:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980520214505.A26219@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:45:05 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: talk (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <3562A574.CE34E6EA@tdx.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <3562A574.CE34E6EA@tdx.co.uk>; from Karl Pielorz on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:42:12AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4293 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Karl Pielorz: > b) Prefers the Motorola? (I certainly do!), and / or c) Largely used to own, > program, hack on Amiga's? - or at least want FreeBSD to work as well as the > Amiga did In my case it was a Sinclair QL, a 68008 (the 8 bits version of the 68K) based computer. Very nice machine, lots of memory for its time (I ended up with 640 KB), a graphical interface and multitasking OS. All in 64 KB of ROM along with a very modern BASIC... I cut my teeth on 68K assembler on this and was very happy. Boy, what a deception it was the first time I read about 8086 assembler :-( National Semiconductors NS32x32 processors were even nicer than 68K for assembly programming. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:01:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13872 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13755 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15237; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <019401bd8428$14aecc00$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Atipa" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:47:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here's one. If it happens to MS it will happen to other platforms when they become popular. It will set a precedent that they can use later on if say FreeBSD becomes the OS of choice. Jason -----Original Message----- From: Frank Pawlak To: Atipa ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 5:40 PM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >You obviously miss-understand the issues regarding monopolies and free >competition. Should we support Microsoft, you haven't set forth one solid >reason for it. > >Frank > > >On May 18, 11:23am, Atipa wrote: >> Subject: Why we should support Microsoft... >> >> >> >> >> I know I am going out on a limbe here, but I do not think the Justice >> Department should make any decisions on the software industry, and I think >> Microsoft should be allowed to ship whatever the hell it wants. >> >> We are told that this is a free, capitalistic country, but now they want >> to say it is just sort-of capitalistic? That you can make all the money >> you want, until you make too much? What kind of crap is that? >> >> I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and >> poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and >> what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and >> forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or >> should not try to do? >> >> Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US >> Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for >> telling them where to go with their suggesions: >> >> * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means >> of accessing it. This is _almost_ reasonable, but I can >> understand the common vision of PC's as extensions to the >> Internet. To make a browser part of an OS seems like a really >> cool idea to me. Now I do agree 100% that other browsers should >> be able to operate in the new environment (eg, no MS booby traps >> or proprietary mumbo jumbo to prevent competition) >> >> * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all >> competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is >> entirely ludicrous. To paraphrase Bill Gates, "It is like having >> to include 2 cans of Pepsi in every Coke six pack." Amen. >> As I said, take off the restrictions and let the best product >> win. As consumers, _WE_ are the ones getting hosed in this >> ordeal, not Microsoft. >> >> * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and >> competitors can customize their visual. How would all the >> developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed >> the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? You would feel smited. >> Also, the continuity of the UI is the only thing that makes >> supporting this crap OS possible. If everyone had their own >> interface, providers would have a bear of a time giving >> accurate, detailed instructions. >> >> We must take a stand, and tell the Justice Deptartment to bugger off. They >> do not understand the software industry, they are setting a horrible >> precendent, and depriving the American people of free choice. >> >> They are ruining a good, competitive environment by degrading the efforts >> of the front runner, instead of promoting the laggers. We are all losing >> out. >> >> The issue to me is not whether or not Win98 is good or bad, the issue is >> freedom. I support Bill Gates in this issue, and hope you will as well. >> Hopefully, this product will fail all on its own, and open the doors to >> good programmers all over the world, without US ecomonic intervention. >> >> I hope you all can see through this junk. Liberty must be preserved. Let >> the best products win, and let MS die on its own two feet. >> >> Kevin >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >>-- End of excerpt from Atipa > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:05:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14805 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14732 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:05:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-35.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.163]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id PAA03976; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:05:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01605; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:05:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980520200508.ZM1604@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:05:08 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 20, 11:53am) References: <21093.895690380@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Frank Pawlak" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 20, 11:53am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > and market power. And don't make the case that that is IBM's fault totally, > > when M$ closed off the API's for Win 32. Everything they produce is > > proprietary. Yet you wish to lament your lack of freedom. Sorry Jordan, as > > much as I admire what you and the FreeBSD team are doing and stand for, you > > can't have you bread buttered on both sides. Eventually you number turns up > > on the hit list. > > Wait a second, since when have I been lamenting that Microsoft was > infringing my freedoms? I also rather strenuously object to your > accusation that I'm wanting my "bread buttered on both sides" since > that's specifically the mindset I've been arguing AGAINST for the last > 4 rounds here or so. Either you have misunderstood me rather > drastically or aren't actually reading what I've been saying with > anything approaching the proper care. Your objection is well taken, and I don't think that there is any misunderstanding on my part. > > To put it another way, I don't really _care_ whether my number comes > up on any "Microsoft hit list" since I've been operating under the > continual assumption that such a thing would happen anyway, either > directly or indirectly as the result of some larger campaign on their > part. All I want is the freedom to fight my own battles, however > doomed or outnumbered my side may be, and any help from the government > is help that I don't need AT ALL thank you very much! The government > already has enough guns pointed at my head without me giving them > another one to "protect" me with. This is your lament. You speak with mixed voices. First you favor to fight your own battles, as do I. Then you say you don't care whether M$ has you on the hit list. I have seen numerous post where you expressed the joy and rewards received from writting free software, so don't accuse me of not carefully reading you writing. Where will those rewards come from once the free software ideal is crushed. Yes perhaps there will always be some place where free software is used, but don't try to convince me that a person with your passion being involved with the FreeBSD project won't feel a big loss if M$ or anyone else sould crush the project. That my friend is impingment on you freedom, and you tell me you don't give a damn. In the end it is how freedom is defined. > > FWIW, I don't believe in anti-trust laws either. If it's in mankind's > nature to create and support robber barons in their pillaging then > mankind deserves whatever it gets, period. This is a case of the powerful and strong robbing the weak and infirm of their freedom. Robber capitalism is no different than any totalitarian system, where the bullies dictate to the masses. History is filled with the sagas of the masses rising up to overthrough this stuff, with the general result of a dictatorial system that is more oppressive. This is just begger thy brother so the strong and powerful get their wishes. Self infliction, that's tunnel vision. So either you have your freedom or you don't. The situation where some are free and others are not is a freedom charade. It's one way or the other. Either everyone is free or no one is. I repeat, you can't have your bread buttered on both sides. >This whole legal system > for regulating our own worst impulses has always struck me as > equivalent to hitting oneself repeatedly with a hammer and then > pointing to the first-aid kit every time someone comes up and asks you > what you're doing about this weird compulsion you have to harm > yourself. It's not solving the fundamental problem and it's not going > to get any closer to solving the fundamental problem as you make it > more and more complex and intrusive. Maybe that makes me an > Anarchist. I don't really mind. :-) I will not dispute you last statement. You wear it like a badge. Frank > > - Jordan >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:12:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15921 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:12:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15843 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:11:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20257; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:11:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01e701bd8429$950fad00$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jan B. Koum " Cc: Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:57:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On May 18, 1:45pm, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >> >> Stop smoking crack. This is not about Bill Gates having too much >> money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following >> keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. >> Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. >> Monopoly should be stopped. >> >> -- Yan >> > >Right on bro! > >Frank > > What monopoly would that be? Microsoft is no more a monopoly than GM is. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:14:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16255 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:14:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx1-11.onmedia.com (mx1-11.onmedia.com [209.133.35.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16187; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dandugger@goplay.com) Received: from GP1 (root@localhost) by mx1-11.onmedia.com (8.8.8/OICP2.0.5b1/8.8.8/OICP2.0.5b1) with OICP id NAA07360; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OnMedia Mail (GPX1) by mx1-11.onmedia.com ($Revision: 2.3 $) with OICP id 18351937; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:16:41 -0800 Subject: www.openbsd.com Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:05:41 -0800 Message-Id: <18351937.5.716@mx1-11.onmedia.com> Reply-to: "dandugger" From: "dandugger" To: freebsd-misc@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org what's up with www.openbsd.com? did openbsd really hack freebsd? -dan.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:15:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16359 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:15:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx1-12.onmedia.com (mx1-12.onmedia.com [209.133.35.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16295; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:14:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dandugger@goplay.com) Received: from GP1 (root@localhost) by mx1-12.onmedia.com (8.8.8/OICP2.0.5b1/8.8.8/OICP2.0.5b1) with OICP id NAA13396; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OnMedia Mail (GPX1) by server1.onmedia.com ($Revision: 2.3 $) with OICP id 18351903; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:10:27 -0800 Subject: www.openbsd.com Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:04:59 -0800 Message-Id: <18351903.9.171@server1.onmedia.com> Reply-to: "dandugger" From: "dandugger" To: freebsd-misc@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org what's up with www.openbsd.com? did openbsd really hack freebsd? -dan.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:20:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17268 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17147 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-35.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.163]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id PAA28010; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:19:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01667; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:19:37 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980520201936.ZM1666@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:19:36 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason" "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 20, 3:57pm) References: <01e701bd8429$950fad00$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason" , "Frank Pawlak" , "Jan B. Koum " Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 20, 3:57pm, Jason wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > >On May 18, 1:45pm, Jan B. Koum wrote: > >> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > >> > >> Stop smoking crack. This is not about Bill Gates having too much > >> money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following > >> keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. > >> Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. > >> Monopoly should be stopped. > >> > >> -- Yan > >> > > > >Right on bro! > > > >Frank > > > > > What monopoly would that be? Microsoft is no more a monopoly than GM is. > What hole in the ground have you had your head buried in? There is a hell of a lot more competition in the auto industry than in the operating system business. Frank > Jason >-- End of excerpt from Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:21:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17456 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:21:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17306 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21727; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 20:05:08 -0000." <980520200508.ZM1604@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:20:16 -0700 Message-ID: <21723.895695616@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is your lament. You speak with mixed voices. First you favor to fight > your own battles, as do I. Then you say you don't care whether M$ has you on > the hit list. I have seen numerous post where you expressed the joy and I see absolutely nothing "mixed" about that at all and can't even imagine a position where they would be perceived as such. > where free software is used, but don't try to convince me that a person with > your passion being involved with the FreeBSD project won't feel a big loss if > M$ or anyone else sould crush the project. That my friend is impingment on y Ummm.. How can I explain this. It's sort of like that old saw about how a person has the right to his own (conflicting) opinions and any right-thinking person will fight for that person's ability to _have_ an opinion conflicting with his own. If Microsoft stomps us flat and the market "allows" this to happen by not embracing our technology instead then what's the reward for me in trying to lead a foolish and undeserving market away from the consequences of its own folly? None. That's only a recipe for heartache and I'll be much more inclined to return my attention to the much-neglected (for me) subject of Oceanography before I'll waste my time and energies in such fruitless pursuits. Fortunately, the market is neither so foolish nor undeserving as that at present, so that scenario isn't something I have to contend with. With any luck, we'll also manage to continue to reach a sigificant percentage of the market with our message and perhaps Microsoft will help us here and there by stepping on its dick and yielding us the occasional tactical advantage - who knows how it will go? Either way, it's really the _market_ that will and should decide this and if it it's savvy enough to adopt our solutions when they're the best available then cool - we're in! If not, well, we'll be redundant anyway and I can always go back to studying fish. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:24:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17886 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25986; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <01fd01bd842b$40859b80$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "John Kelly" , "Atipa" Cc: "Jan B. Koum " , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:09:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Mon, 18 May 1998 15:02:56 -0600 (MDT), Atipa >wrote: > > >Not necessarily. > >Cisco has achieved 80% monopoly in the Internet router market, but >without using illegal tying contracts and other practices prohibited >by the antitrust laws. As long as they act lawfully while creating a >monopoly, the law does not judge it as bad. > What was illegal about the contracts that MS are "forcing by gun point" on PC manufacturers? I mean it doesn't prevent them from totally customizing the OS to look like they want? It also doesn't keep them from loading other apps if they want. things like that might be ilegal but nothing like that was done. IE has been in Windows since Windows 95 4.00. Its wasn't as intregrated until version 4.1 but what does that have to do with anything. Netscape can create the same thing if they like. > >An OS which drives net commerce is quickly becoming a basic need. Very true...and MS sees this and is buying up all the parts to the new commerce. Thats why they are buing cable, telcos, and others because they know thats where the future (and money) is. I would do the same thing if in a simular position. > >Microsoft, OTOH, has acted unlawfully. Tying contracts, exclusive >dealing, and other bad practices, not to mention shoddy products, are >their standard operating procedure. Therefore, the law judges them as >bad, deserving of severe punishment, up to and including destruction. > > I would like to see proof of this "tying contracts, exclusive dealing" It has never been documented as far as I have seen. And I have been listening to the DOJ for almost a year on this. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:28:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18628 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:28:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18488 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27460; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <020201bd842b$c0443e80$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:13:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Atipa wrote: > Adding insult to this whole situation are the demands of the US > Government. Now these are plain silly, and I applaud Bill Gates for > telling them where to go with their suggesions: > > * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > of accessing it What kind of freedom is this.....If I want IE on my windows 98 then I should get it! > * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all > competing products as well. Then maybe they should make Coke out Pepsi in their 12 packs. I know this analogy is is not original but it fits. > * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and > competitors can customize their visual. This is already the case.....OEMs can make win98 look and feel like anything they want. same has been true with win95. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:34:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19628 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:34:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19500 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gherbert@kithrup.com) Received: (from gherbert@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14440; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:33:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gherbert) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:33:11 -0700 (PDT) From: George William Herbert Message-Id: <199805202033.NAA14440@kithrup.com> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, gherbert@crl.com Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Newsgroups: kithrup.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <20153.895680408.kithrup.freebsd.chat@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 00:11:06 PDT." <199805200711.AAA07314@rah.star-gate.com> Organization: Dis- Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan writes: >> So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business >> pratice? > >I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. > >People have spent a lot of time whining about the fact that Microsoft >owns 80% of the desktops out there and that M$ is now the Big Bad Wolf >who is crushing innovation and all these other scarey things, but they >all conveniently ignore answering the biggest question of all: >How did we get to this state in the first place? [...] This argument is entirely irrelevant to why the DOJ and states filed the suit, which is not why most computer people don't like M$. It is not illegal to have or be a monopoly in American business. It *is* illegal to use such a monopoly to form a barrier to entry into the market, or to use it as leverage with other unfair business practices to gain other markets. M$ has a roughly 90% marketshare for computer operating systems. That's a monopoly. They have, in myriad ways, used that monopoly to dominate a number of applications markets, and are attempting to do so now to dominate the browser market. That is Against The Law. It's just as illegal for Microsoft as any of the other monopolies that have been hit under antitrust laws have been in the past. There is nothing magic about the computer software or the computer business that gives anyone involved in it exceptions to pre-existing laws regarding how businesses must be run. The M$ internal memo about having to leve3rage the dominance of Windows to push MSIE market share against Netscape is a smoking gun with fingerprints and matched ballistics for multiple violations of the Sherman act; the fact that M$ has any senior executives who have not been briefed well enough on the antitrust laws to actually have typed u and emailed something that blatant is indicative of gross idiocy. Unfair and illegal practices they're doing include: * Undocumented Windows API (except they're documented for M$ apps people) * Forcibly bundling *anything* for which commercial competition exists with the operating system, in particular to the required exclusion of the competing product. Yes, in all of this is the lingering feeling that most of us have of the Seattle Monstrosity having finally started to get its comeuppance for years of annoying the rest of the industry (us, at least), but leaving that aside completely it is more than past time that this action be taken from a purely legal standpoint. This is not commentary on computer industry practices; the computer industry has to follow the same laws as everyone else, Bill and company have not, and now they are beingcalled on it. -george william herbert gherbert@crl.com gherbert@randomotherplaces To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:39:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20655 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:39:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20122 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01872; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <020c01bd842d$14944ce0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Wes Peters" , "Atipa" Cc: Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:22:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Now that I've vented my spleen all over Kevin, I'll refute directly >a couple of the points he is mistaken on: > >Atipa wrote: >> * That Microsoft disable their browser, and _all_available_means > >Nope, wrong. What they asked for is that the browser component, since it is >an application, be installed separately. They can put it on the CD-ROM, they >can install all of the DLLs, they just can't stick their browser on your >system when you just asked to install the operating system. And whats the harm of preinstalling IE? some version of IE has been there since win95 first came out! >> * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all >> competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is > >If they're going to provide a 'free' browser, they must provide copies of all >free browsers, or at least a reasonable selection, on the distribution media. >Again, they're protecting the consumers right to choose. Not doing thins doesn't take away choice....the OEMs or even the cunsumer can get ANY one they want and install it! Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:41:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20942 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:41:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20708 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:40:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02976; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:39:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <021301bd842d$76e425a0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" Cc: , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:25:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That's well and good, Jordan, but what M$ overloads into > their OS isn't the crux of the matter. What is is > how Microsoft forces vendors to handle only their products. I have not seen any indication of this myself. But if its true then it will come out in the courts. If its not true then it will just emberrass the DOJ and many states. > The case is not about how one corporation has such a > significant part of the market, but in how they _got_ > there. Mobsters aren't the only ones to use brass knuckles. And bill Gates has used brass knuckles? I highly doubt he even knows what they look like! Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 13:43:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21331 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21082 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id NAA09075 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:41:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:41:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: One satellite out (it didn't use FreeBSD)! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, the topic maybe is a joking matter, but here is some food for thought: One satellite goes out, most pagers affected. Police, fire, medical staff are all helpless. Yahoo! does not get news. Pagers do not go through. One satellite. Think about it. Just one satellite. Now think about year 2000: how many satellites, devices, mainframes will be affected simultaneously? Back to the caves boys and girls, back to the caves. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:15:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28499 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:15:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28318; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id OAA14560; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:14:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: dandugger cc: freebsd-misc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com In-Reply-To: <18351903.9.171@server1.onmedia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes. Now stop crosposting and -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Wed, 20 May 1998, dandugger wrote: >what's up with www.openbsd.com? did openbsd really hack freebsd? >-dan.... > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:15:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28508 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nirvana.curium.com (qmailr@nirvana.curium.com [209.123.36.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28350 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:14:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from blair@nirvana.curium.com) Received: (qmail 9507 invoked by uid 1028); 20 May 1998 21:14:39 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 20 May 1998 21:14:39 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:14:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Blair Sadewitz To: dandugger cc: freebsd-misc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com In-Reply-To: <18351903.9.171@server1.onmedia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998, dandugger wrote > what's up with www.openbsd.com? did openbsd really hack freebsd? > -dan.... > I don't know the answer to your question. However, I can tell you "what's up" with www.openbsd.com: a) It is an ineffectual and half-witted satire. Observe: Portable currently the operating system runs only on Texas Instruments TI-82 graphic calculators, but we are working on support for a variety of other platforms, including the HP 48. Please contribute money if you want to see this happen. I don't see how this effectively satirizes anything, as OpenBSD actually has support for many architectures. This is a good thing, and I can't fathom why it would be the object of criticism through satire. b) The author is a socially maladaptive boor of questionable cognitive ability. Here are some excerpts from the web page: "Currently, we aren't doing shit, besides making announcements about something yet to be realeased." One can ridicule this statement on two planes: The author misspelled 'released'. Literally, "aren't doing shit" is interpreted as "not doing shit", and thus it leaves the possibility open for many other activities! Furthermore, the OpenBSD developers work constantly on the project, and one can check http://ww.openbsd.org/plus.htm or CVS commit logs for evidence of this. "Effective immediately, we have removed all shells from the operating system. We found them to be an unnecessary security risk. We are now undeniable more secure than FreeBSD. Also, we are no longer accepting bug reports or comments." "Removing all shells" is weak satire when juxtaposed with OS security as a whole. If the author is attempting to convey the notion that OpenBSD sacrifices features in the name of security, I'd like to see him elaborate. Furthermore, the OpenBSD community is _open_ and responsive to comments and bug reports. The author also wrote "now undeniable more secure". Me think that sound bad. In short, www.openbsd.com pokes more fun at the author than the OpenBSD project and soils the name of the FreeBSD effort with his juvenile behavior. Perhaps he should spend some time with _UNIX for Dummies_ and a lexicon in lieu of attempting satire of an excellent free operating system. -Blair Sadewitz Adamantine Ventures, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:18:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29047 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:18:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28934 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id OAA14960; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: dandugger cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org God I am such a retard!!! Ment to hit CTRL-C in pine and did CTRL-X. What I wanted to say is stop crossposting and myself wanted to take every mailing list from the cc: -- however since now I am myself apologizing for cross posting I have to apologize to people on the list. *sigh* I'll stop smoking crack now. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Wed, 20 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Yes. Now stop crosposting and > >-- Yan > >Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want >www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > >On Wed, 20 May 1998, dandugger wrote: > >>what's up with www.openbsd.com? did openbsd really hack freebsd? >>-dan.... >> >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:33:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02562 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02482 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:32:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27339; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <022b01bd8434$cf24c060$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: , "Brett Glass" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft. Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:18:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 11:23 AM 5/18/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >This is not what "they" are saying. > >Microsoft is engaging in unscrupulous and monopolistic business practices, >including tying, monopoly maintenance, tortious interference with contract, >breach of contract, and more. These practices are illegal in any industry -- >be it software, steel, coal, railroads, or shoes. That sounds aweful vague....and vague doesn't win in court (well not supposed to anyway :)...What are the specifics here anyhow? >>I belive in economic Darwinism; that is to say, good products flourish and >>poor products wilt away. The consumer ultimately decides what sells and >>what doesn't, and not the providers. If Win98 stinks, I hope it dies and >>forces MS to make better products. But who am I to say what they should or >>should not try to do? > >This is analogous to saying that if a group of gangsters manages to gain control >of a city as its "territory," that you have no say in what it does. After all, >that's "Darwinism;" the strongest gang has won, right? But the software industry is a ligitament business. Gangsters are involved in ileagal businesses like murder and gambling. I think there is a distinct difference here. Now if it is found out that MS is involved in muder and gambling or something else ilegal then there is a case....but unless they can find something like MS forcing OEMs do something like: not allowing them to install something that consumers might want. > >Microsoft could, and should, have removed the browser entirely and made it >optional. Since it did not, it seems reasonable to offer it the option of >disabling it. > Why ...it was never optional before? Every windows 9x I have ever seen has had IE in it. And what does it hurt to make IE part of Windows anyhow? In Win98 I have seen that IExplorer.exe and Explorer.exe are one and the same...so you cant use win98 without IE4. Unfortunately if IE window crashes so does explorer.exe :( But that os not a mojor problem because the OS automatically restarts the shell and all you losy is the systray. Its there but you cant see anything that was there before the crash. >> * If MS does include a browser, they must also provide all >> competing products as well. Can you say horse? That is >> entirely ludicrous. > >No, it is not. Again, it's merely an expedient compromise. The PROPER thing >to do is not to tie the browser to the OS. However, if Microsoft is going >to do so, one way to ameliorate the negative effects is to allow other companies >to put their browsers on the disk as well. It's not a very GOOD way, since >they wouldn't be able to charge for their browsers that way (and one of the biggest >problems with Microsoft's tying of the browser is that it's effectively "dumping" >it on the market for free). But at least the browser makers could get some revenue >page from "Portal" pages, etc. How would a browser company make money by putting it in win98? unless its a shareware or somethint that requires registration to use. I don't think this is appropriate unless they make Apple, OS/2, FreeBSD and others do the same thing. >> * MS must modify their "Window Manager" so that OEMs and >> competitors can customize their visual. How would all the >> developers of FreeBSD feel if I took a FreeBSD release, changed >> the GUI a bit, and called it AtipaOS? > >Fine. In fact, you're allowed to. Go to it! > And it can be done on windows 95/98 as well. Everything but messing with the source or kernal....those are protected by copyright laws. But the OS has a great many things you can customize. >You seem to be buying Bill Gates' bogus arguments, hook, line, and sinker. >With all due respect, have you been sent to this newsgroup by Microsoft as >part of its "grass roots" campaign? Microsoft has been known to plant >disruptive "advocates" in online forums in the past, so this is by >no means unusual. sounds more like you are buying into the DOJ as much as he is buying into Bill Gates. from what I have seem the DOJ is talking in "vague emotional terms" and Bill Gates is showing the people proof in his recent news conference on CNN. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:35:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03088 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:35:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eug4ja.lane.edu (eug4ja.lane.edu [158.165.5.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02966; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from CUPPLES_S@4j.lane.edu) Received: from 4j.lane.edu by 4j.lane.edu (PMDF V5.1-9 #27890) id <01IX9D7IQPGO8WWNPK@4j.lane.edu>; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:34:49 PST Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:34:47 -0800 (PST) From: cupples_s@4j.lane.edu Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com In-reply-to: <18351903.9.171@server1.onmedia.com> To: dandugger Cc: freebsd-misc@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wouldn't assume so, did you read there security page, I think tat they are really on to somthing. I say that we secure FreeBSD that same way that they did remove all shells I mean who needs them, right... Shawn Cupples South Eugene High School (541) 687-3122 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:37:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03648 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03538 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.9.0.Beta3) with SMTP id RAA19238 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:37:09 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <01e701bd8429$950fad00$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998, Jason wrote: > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Hmmm. > What monopoly would that be? Microsoft is no more a monopoly than GM is. Haven't tried to buy a PC without Win[whatever] preloaded in the past few years, have you? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:39:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04002 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:39:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03533 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id OAA18764 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:37:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Drunk penguins Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thank god our mascot is copyrighted, patented, whatever: http://www.budice.com/images/penqbot.gif -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:45:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05152 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:45:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aaka.3skel.com (aaka.3skel.com [207.240.212.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05087 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:44:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danj@3skel.com) Received: from fnur.3skel.com (fnur.3skel.com [192.168.0.8]) by aaka.3skel.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA11525; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 3skel.com (localhost.3skel.com [127.0.0.1]) by fnur.3skel.com (8.8.8/8.8.2) with ESMTP id RAA05227; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35634ECB.C95AC254@3skel.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:44:43 -0400 From: Dan Janowski Organization: Triskelion Systems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , Atipa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... References: <20153.895680408@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The problem here is not what Microsoft has been able to take advantage of in the past. In nature and economics voids are filled, usually by the opportunistic. We may deserve to be here, but I don't. Neither do the millions of people who had mostly nothing to do with the root of the problem. Yes, strategy and corporate stupidity of the past is to blame. Now that the world has become computerized and networked as it is, people and entities that didn't realize what this all meant are waking up to reality. You can't damn a civilization to eternal suffering because the computer industry of the 80's and early 90's was too stupid to know what was going on. When these things happen, the government, and the law, is the last stop on the road to damnation. It may be synthetic, but we have to make some opportunity to move on to a better world of computing. All the great monopolies of the past took their opportunities, made lots of money and cemented a strangle hold in their industries. This is no different. Dan Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > pratice? > ... > So, rather than investing a lot of time and energy into building > better and better software engines, like the Unix crowd is doing, Bill > focuses instead on the "outer shell", that 10% of the software were > the user spends 90% of their time, and puts all of his resources into > improving the man/machine interface on *commodity hardware*. This is > a key point which Apple missed - they got the man/machine bit very > right then screwed up by trying to mate it exclusively to proprietary > hardware - a mistake which M$ had already made and learned from > earlier and didn't need to repeat. > > Again, Microsoft made some tactical mistakes along the way but their > overall strategy was exactly the right one for making a lot of money > and that's exactly what they did. The rest of us just watched and > thought, with our engineering minds, how silly these Microsoft people > were for making all these tactical blunders and we never really > focused on what the overall strategy was supposed to be, hell, I don't > think any of us wanted to even _think_ about strategy - we were having > just too much fun playing with all this new tech. > > So, I look at M$ today and I'm naturally saddened by the kind of > software that 80% of the world now has to live with, but who do I > blame for this? Us. Only us. We let it happen and now we're > complaining, far after the fact, that somebody ought to protect us > from the big bad wolf we ourselves let into the house. Bah! How is > that people are so frickin' BLIND? > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- danj@3skel.com Dan Janowski Triskelion Systems, Inc. Bronx, NY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:49:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA05833 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05804 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 14:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05133; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <024401bd8437$15104f20$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Amancio Hasty" Cc: "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:34:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >what platform it runs on. That's market control, the buyer has virtually no >say in what gets implemented. It is either the M$ solution or nothing. You >either develop to the M$ standard or you don't develop at all. All of this Who says that....if all the app venders and users get sick and tired of windows and microsoft then they should abegin developing their apps for other platforms and begin promoting it to the public. Its not a hard thing to do to make an app run on other OSs. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:50:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23789 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:55:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23625 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09839; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <021e01bd842f$694c9d80$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Amancio Hasty" Cc: "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:39:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> another problem who's magnitude will be dwarfed by the problems >> resulting from its "solution" - just where does this stupidity end, >> anyway? Did we all just ingest a lot of lead paint chips in the 50's >> and 60's as children or what? :-) >> > >So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business >pratice? > > > Amancio Well here's my opinion to the question even though it was not directed at me personally The DOJ should forget this whole Win98/IE4 thing. MS has a right to ship what it wants when it wants. The DOJ should look into things like: OEM licenses and MS using them to force OEMs to not install or customize things that consumers want. I mean its only appropriate that the OS be customizable by the OEM or the end user....but this does not mean working with the source or other copyrighted sections of the OS. Really nothing else the DOJ has said has any legal bearing on what MS has done. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 14:57:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20263 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20044 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 13:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-35.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.163]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id PAA06713; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:36:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01693; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:36:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980520203622.ZM1692@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:36:22 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 20, 1:20pm) References: <21723.895695616@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Frank Pawlak" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 20, 1:20pm, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > This is your lament. You speak with mixed voices. First you favor to fight > > your own battles, as do I. Then you say you don't care whether M$ has you on > > the hit list. I have seen numerous post where you expressed the joy and > > I see absolutely nothing "mixed" about that at all and can't even > imagine a position where they would be perceived as such. > Are any of us getting any work done today??? Hell with that, this has been an interesting and challenging mind exercise ;-) All of the reasons why I gave up doing economics. > > where free software is used, but don't try to convince me that a person with > > your passion being involved with the FreeBSD project won't feel a big loss if > > M$ or anyone else sould crush the project. That my friend is impingment on y > > Ummm.. How can I explain this. It's sort of like that old saw about > how a person has the right to his own (conflicting) opinions and any > right-thinking person will fight for that person's ability to _have_ > an opinion conflicting with his own. That's what freedom is all about. > If Microsoft stomps us flat and > the market "allows" this to happen by not embracing our technology > instead then what's the reward for me in trying to lead a foolish and > undeserving market away from the consequences of its own folly? None. > That's only a recipe for heartache and I'll be much more inclined to > return my attention to the much-neglected (for me) subject of > Oceanography before I'll waste my time and energies in such fruitless > pursuits. > > Fortunately, the market is neither so foolish nor undeserving as that > at present, so that scenario isn't something I have to contend with. > With any luck, we'll also manage to continue to reach a sigificant > percentage of the market with our message and perhaps Microsoft will > help us here and there by stepping on its dick and yielding us the > occasional tactical advantage - who knows how it will go? > > Either way, it's really the _market_ that will and should decide this > and if it it's savvy enough to adopt our solutions when they're the > best available then cool - we're in! I hope that you are right. M$ maybe too well entrenched for this to happen. Wouldn't be the first time that excellent technology lost to inferior through market power. The Beta vs VHS vcr story comes immediately to mind as an example. >If not, well, we'll be redundant > anyway and I can always go back to studying fish. > So, is it studing fish or developing excellent software that clangs you bell? Frank > - Jordan >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 15:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09509 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09330 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22038; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: George William Herbert cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, gherbert@crl.com Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 13:33:11 PDT." <199805202033.NAA14440@kithrup.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:10:28 -0700 Message-ID: <22034.895702228@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > from a purely legal standpoint. This is not commentary on computer > industry practices; the computer industry has to follow the same laws > as everyone else ... Given the current legal state of affairs today and the degree to which existing laws are already being applied to other parts of the computer industry, I certainly cannot argue with this on purely practical grounds, no. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 15:14:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:14:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09866 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:13:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22052; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:12:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 20:36:22 -0000." <980520203622.ZM1692@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:12:27 -0700 Message-ID: <22049.895702347@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So, is it studing fish or developing excellent software that clangs you bell? "Yes!" :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 16:01:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18267 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:01:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18102 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0ycHqC-0006qY-00; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:00:08 +0100 Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:00:09 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Jason cc: Frank Pawlak , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , Atipa , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <024401bd8437$15104f20$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Who says that....if all the app venders and users get sick and tired of > windows and microsoft then they should abegin developing their apps for > other platforms and begin promoting it to the public. Its not a hard thing > to do to make an app run on other OSs. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Even MS can/does that! Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 16:32:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23709 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA23540 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 15451 invoked by uid 1017); 20 May 1998 22:27:41 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:27:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: Ben Cohen cc: John Brann , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , jkh@time.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How about forcing MS to release their OS source code? Perhaps under > a licence such as the Berkeley one or, I think more realistically, > something more like GPL. Nope. Public _humiliation_ was tossed out years ago as "cruel and unusualt punishment" :-) Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 17:29:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14305 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:41:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13904; Wed, 20 May 1998 15:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0ycHV3-0006NJ-00; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:38:17 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:38:17 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: John Brann cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , jkh@time.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <199805201942.PAA04067@freebie.brann.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > > > pratice? > > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. > > [snip a lot about microsoft] > > > > the DOJ should strive to break microsoft into two companies: > > an operating system firm and an applications firm. microsoft > > uses its os to force applcations upon users. microsoft > > has stolen apps that it failed to write. some of these > > have been added to the os product package. > > > [SNIP] How about forcing MS to release their OS source code? Perhaps under a licence such as the Berkeley one or, I think more realistically, something more like GPL. Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 17:37:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04322 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:37:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04312 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:37:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA25319; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:05:06 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980521100506.F22701@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:05:06 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ross Harvey , avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: StrongARM and history References: <199805201724.KAA16750@random.teraflop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805201724.KAA16750@random.teraflop.com>; from Ross Harvey on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:24:21AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (following up to -chat, where it belongs) On Wed, 20 May 1998 at 10:24:21 -0700, Ross Harvey wrote: >> From: Darren Reed >> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:16:34 +1000 (EST) >> >> In some mail from Peter Jeremy, sie said: >>> >>> On Mon, 18 May 1998 13:15:03 -0700 (PDT), Julian Elischer wrote: >>>> do we have a strong-arm version of FreeBSD coming up? :-) >>> I suspect you'll find a NetBSD version. (There was a talk at AUUG'97 >>> on DEC's NC `DNARD', based on a SA-110. >> >> Sigh. >> >> Word has it that DEC sold out to Microsoft and scrapped the project. > > Yes, NetBSD supports the arm32 and the DNARD (there are at least a thousand > around here and there) in particular. > > I heard that rumor too, that M$ said: "So, if you want Windoze NoThanks to > keep running on the alpha, cancel that NC project". > > But, I don't totally believe it. They may have even said it, but I bet > Compaq would have pulled the plug anyway: I mean, the whole point of the > NC is to make an alternative to the corporate PC avalanche...why would > Compaq fund such a thing now that they have the keys? Of course, the > cancellation did seem a little early to be a Compaq move. Who knows? Your prejudice against Compaq seems ill-founded. They didn't buy up Tandem and DEC just to kill their operations. I do a lot of work for Tandem, and I'm very impressed about how Compaq have focussed the UNIX operation and got it moving ahead. To turn the question around, why would Compaq not fund such a thing now that they have the keys? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 17:49:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06390 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06304 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 17:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA25367; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:19:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980521101900.H22701@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:19:00 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jan B. Koum " , The Hermit Hacker Cc: Chris Peiffer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD is like Linux (was: Bet you didn't know...) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:04:56AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998 at 11:04:56 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > On Wed, 20 May 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > >> Bet you didn't know we were a "Linux-like operating system", eh? >> >> http://www.netnomics.com/linux/en/ > > HAHAHAHA... some people are born with no clue at all. > "FreeBSD is a Linux-like software with a good reputation for network > management or servers." What's wrong with that? FreeBSD *is* like Linux. Considering the perspective, I think it's a very nice thing to say. I'm going to write to the author and suggest he put in a link to http://www.FreeBSD.org/ Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 18:12:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09654 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:12:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eta.ghs.com (root@eta.ghs.com [208.8.104.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09596 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ross@teraflop.com) Received: from random.teraflop.com (random.teraflop.com [192.67.158.207]) by eta.ghs.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04586; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ross@localhost) by random.teraflop.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00831; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 18:09:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ross Harvey Message-Id: <199805210109.SAA00831@random.teraflop.com> To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, grog@lemis.com, peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Subject: Re: StrongARM and history Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >>>> do we have a strong-arm version of FreeBSD coming up? :-) > >>> I suspect you'll find a NetBSD version. (There was a talk at AUUG'97 > >>> on DEC's NC `DNARD', based on a SA-110. > >> > >> Sigh. > >> > >> Word has it that DEC sold out to Microsoft and scrapped the project. > > > > Yes, NetBSD supports the arm32 and the DNARD (there are at least a thousand > > around here and there) in particular. > > > > I heard that rumor too, that M$ said: "So, if you want Windoze NoThanks to > > keep running on the alpha, cancel that NC project". > > > > But, I don't totally believe it. They may have even said it, but I bet > > Compaq would have pulled the plug anyway: I mean, the whole point of the > > NC is to make an alternative to the corporate PC avalanche...why would > > Compaq fund such a thing now that they have the keys? Of course, the > > cancellation did seem a little early to be a Compaq move. Who knows? > > Your prejudice against Compaq seems ill-founded. They didn't buy up > Tandem and DEC just to kill their operations. I do a lot of work for > Tandem, and I'm very impressed about how Compaq have focussed the UNIX > operation and got it moving ahead. To turn the question around, why > would Compaq not fund such a thing now that they have the keys? I didn't mean this pejoratively with respect to compaq. But the obvious answer to your question "why would Compaq not...?" is: because the NC's raison d'etre was to undercut PC sales; it was developed _entirely_ to provide an alternative to buying high-end megacorp PC's. And it was being...given...away. Think about that for a minute...do you see a possible conflict for Compaq? (Your Tandem "counter" example misses the point, the high end market addressed by Tandem was never intended to take sales away from desktop PC's, and the Dnard was a research lab project...Tandem didn't even have a research lab, right?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 18:13:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09878 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09839 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:12:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/05/18 5.10)) id VAA14836; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:12:48 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from galileo.cris.com (galileo.concentric.net [206.173.119.84]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id VAA27455; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:12:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@galileo.cris.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Complete FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have to say that I just got the Book and CD set and I will be installing it on a small hard drive as a test run that I can hammer on until the "real computer" gets online...and... I am salivating over the HARD COPY man pages...THANK YOU for hard copy...I can't stand reading the computer screen for hours on end when I have the choice... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 18:20:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11238 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11098 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:19:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA25637; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:49:09 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980521104909.L22701@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:49:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Peter Jeremy , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Intel vs the rest (was `Original PC' and `talk') References: <199805202156.HAA15942@gsms01.alcatel.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805202156.HAA15942@gsms01.alcatel.com.au>; from Peter Jeremy on Thu, May 21, 1998 at 07:56:58AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (following up to -chat, where it belongs) On Thu, 21 May 1998 at 7:56:58 +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On Wed, 20 May 1998 19:58:48 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> but nowadays the register model isn't very important to >> anybody except compiler writers. > > The register model _does_ directly affect performance (admittedly, only > marginally). Also, the overall architecture has a substantial impact > on the complexity/performance tradeoffs. > > (more good stuff omitted) Right, but the thing that most users are concerned about is the performance, not how it is obtained. More registers can mean slower instructions. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 18:46:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16557 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:46:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16299 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:44:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA25749; Thu, 21 May 1998 11:11:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980521111157.O22701@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:11:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ross Harvey , avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM and history References: <199805210109.SAA00831@random.teraflop.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805210109.SAA00831@random.teraflop.com>; from Ross Harvey on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 06:09:52PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998 at 18:09:52 -0700, Ross Harvey wrote: >>>>>> do we have a strong-arm version of FreeBSD coming up? :-) >>>>> I suspect you'll find a NetBSD version. (There was a talk at AUUG'97 >>>>> on DEC's NC `DNARD', based on a SA-110. >>>> >>>> Sigh. >>>> >>>> Word has it that DEC sold out to Microsoft and scrapped the project. >>> >>> Yes, NetBSD supports the arm32 and the DNARD (there are at least a thousand >>> around here and there) in particular. >>> >>> I heard that rumor too, that M$ said: "So, if you want Windoze NoThanks to >>> keep running on the alpha, cancel that NC project". >>> >>> But, I don't totally believe it. They may have even said it, but I bet >>> Compaq would have pulled the plug anyway: I mean, the whole point of the >>> NC is to make an alternative to the corporate PC avalanche...why would >>> Compaq fund such a thing now that they have the keys? Of course, the >>> cancellation did seem a little early to be a Compaq move. Who knows? >> >> Your prejudice against Compaq seems ill-founded. They didn't buy up >> Tandem and DEC just to kill their operations. I do a lot of work for >> Tandem, and I'm very impressed about how Compaq have focussed the UNIX >> operation and got it moving ahead. To turn the question around, why >> would Compaq not fund such a thing now that they have the keys? > > I didn't mean this pejoratively with respect to compaq. But the > obvious answer to your question "why would Compaq not...?" is: > because the NC's raison d'etre was to undercut PC sales; it was > developed _entirely_ to provide an alternative to buying high-end > megacorp PC's. And it was being...given...away. I didn't know they were giving it away. Compaq seem pretty smart people, and all evidence to the contrary, I think that they are not overly interested in being in bed with Microsoft. They build hardware. The NC is hardware. Why shouldn't they be interested? They don't have to be the ones who give it away. > (Your Tandem "counter" example misses the point, the high end market > addressed by Tandem was never intended to take sales away from > desktop PC's, and the Dnard was a research lab project... Correct. > Tandem didn't even have a research lab, right?) Hmm. I don't think they'd like that statement, but I suppose it's a matter of definition. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 18:55:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18401 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18319 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 18:54:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16056; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003401bd845b$c219c100$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Dan Janowski" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Amancio Hasty" , "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:55:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are you serious? It sounds like you are comparing Microsoft and Bill Gates to the next Hitler! Next I suppose your going to tell us that Bill Gates is the one behind all these government conspiracies and killed JFK. You've been reading that book "on a pale horse" too much :) A friend of mine was like that.....always seeing some undercover secret plot in everything....learned early on not to watch the news with him :) Jason -----Original Message----- From: Dan Janowski To: Jordan K. Hubbard Cc: Amancio Hasty ; Gary Kline ; Atipa ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >The problem here is not what Microsoft has been able to >take advantage of in the past. In nature and economics >voids are filled, usually by the opportunistic. > >We may deserve to be here, but I don't. Neither do >the millions of people who had mostly nothing to >do with the root of the problem. Yes, strategy and >corporate stupidity of the past is to blame. > >Now that the world has become computerized and >networked as it is, people and entities that didn't >realize what this all meant are waking up to reality. > >You can't damn a civilization to eternal suffering >because the computer industry of the 80's and >early 90's was too stupid to know what was going on. > >When these things happen, the government, and the law, >is the last stop on the road to damnation. It may be >synthetic, but we have to make some opportunity to >move on to a better world of computing. > >All the great monopolies of the past took their opportunities, >made lots of money and cemented a strangle hold in >their industries. This is no different. > >Dan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:11:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:11:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from eta.ghs.com (root@eta.ghs.com [208.8.104.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20977 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ross@teraflop.com) Received: from random.teraflop.com (random.teraflop.com [192.67.158.207]) by eta.ghs.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05030; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ross@localhost) by random.teraflop.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01396; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:08:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Ross Harvey Message-Id: <199805210208.TAA01396@random.teraflop.com> To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, grog@lemis.com, peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au Subject: Re: StrongARM and history Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>>>> do we have a strong-arm version of FreeBSD coming up? :-) >>>>>> I suspect you'll find a NetBSD version. (There was a talk at AUUG'97 >>>>>> on DEC's NC `DNARD', based on a SA-110. >>>>> >>>>> Sigh. >>>>> >>>>> Word has it that DEC sold out to Microsoft and scrapped the project. >>>> >>>> Yes, NetBSD supports the arm32 and the DNARD (there are at least a thousand >>>> around here and there) in particular. >>>> >>>> I heard that rumor too, that M$ said: "So, if you want Windoze NoThanks to >>>> keep running on the alpha, cancel that NC project". >>>> >>>> But, I don't totally believe it. They may have even said it, but I bet >>>> Compaq would have pulled the plug anyway: I mean, the whole point of the >>>> NC is to make an alternative to the corporate PC avalanche...why would >>>> Compaq fund such a thing now that they have the keys? Of course, the >>>> cancellation did seem a little early to be a Compaq move. Who knows? >>> >>> Your prejudice against Compaq seems ill-founded. They didn't buy up >>> Tandem and DEC just to kill their operations. I do a lot of work for >>> Tandem, and I'm very impressed about how Compaq have focussed the UNIX >>> operation and got it moving ahead. To turn the question around, why >>> would Compaq not fund such a thing now that they have the keys? >> >> I didn't mean this pejoratively with respect to compaq. But the >> obvious answer to your question "why would Compaq not...?" is: >> because the NC's raison d'etre was to undercut PC sales; it was >> developed _entirely_ to provide an alternative to buying high-end >> megacorp PC's. And it was being...given...away. > >I didn't know they were giving it away. > >Compaq seem pretty smart people, and all evidence to the contrary, I >think that they are not overly interested in being in bed with >Microsoft. They build hardware. The NC is hardware. Why shouldn't >they be interested? They don't have to be the ones who give it away. Your statements are correct, as far as they go. But I think what you are missing is: [1] the NC is _cheap_ hardware, the high-end PC's are (or were, at the time the NC project began) a lot more expensive. And [2], note what "DNARD" stands for: "Digital Network Appliance Reference Design". "Reference Design" as in: given away, with schematics, dimensions, free cool NetBSD software (with some FreeBSD stuff, too), and active solicitation for _anyone_ to make them. Even if it was exactly a PC there are obvious reasons why Compaq _might_ have prefered not to be doing that. I'm not sure how big a discussion this is worth, though, since [1] I'm just speculating, and [2] we are kind of beating this compaq vs NC point to death. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:33:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24121 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:33:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24085 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:33:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12613; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:32:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805210232.TAA12613@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jason" cc: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 17:34:28 EDT." <024401bd8437$15104f20$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:32:48 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Part of the problem with this line of thinking is that PC OEM must be free to distribute alternative OS without illegal reprecussion from Microsoft . The other component is that the application vendors must be convinced to port their applications to an alternative OS of course they are welcome to become successful in the MS World and if they should we all know what follows next . Cheers, Amancio > >what platform it runs on. That's market control, the buyer has virtually > no > >say in what gets implemented. It is either the M$ solution or nothing. > You > >either develop to the M$ standard or you don't develop at all. All of this > > > Who says that....if all the app venders and users get sick and tired of > windows and microsoft then they should abegin developing their apps for > other platforms and begin promoting it to the public. Its not a hard thing > to do to make an app run on other OSs. > > Jason > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:42:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA25610 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:42:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25572 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12664; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805210241.TAA12664@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: One satellite out (it didn't use FreeBSD)! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 13:41:23 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:41:36 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I assure you that the FreeBSD chat mailing will not stop in the year 2000 in fact I bet if civilization falls this mailing list will still go on 8) Cheers, Amancio > > Ok, the topic maybe is a joking matter, but here is some food > for thought: One satellite goes out, most pagers affected. Police, fire, > medical staff are all helpless. Yahoo! does not get news. Pagers do not go > through. One satellite. Think about it. Just one satellite. Now think > about year 2000: how many satellites, devices, mainframes will be affected > simultaneously? Back to the caves boys and girls, back to the caves. > > -- Yan > > Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want > www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:45:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26296 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26232 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id TAA15371; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:45:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Greg Lehey cc: The Hermit Hacker , Chris Peiffer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD is like Linux (was: Bet you didn't know...) In-Reply-To: <19980521101900.H22701@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I already did. He replied right away. He seemed like a nice guy and I think the problem was in translation with foreign language. I'll see to it that he runs FreeBSD by the end of the month too. *grin* I hope you have yet to send him eMail .. he might think FreeBSD people are ought to get him... :) -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Thu, 21 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Wed, 20 May 1998 at 11:04:56 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> On Wed, 20 May 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >> >>> Bet you didn't know we were a "Linux-like operating system", eh? >>> >>> http://www.netnomics.com/linux/en/ >> >> HAHAHAHA... some people are born with no clue at all. >> "FreeBSD is a Linux-like software with a good reputation for network >> management or servers." > >What's wrong with that? FreeBSD *is* like Linux. Considering the >perspective, I think it's a very nice thing to say. I'm going to >write to the author and suggest he put in a link to >http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:50:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27422 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27289 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-2-100.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.138.228]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id VAA28689; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:50:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00720; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:50:09 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980521025008.ZM719@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:50:08 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 20, 3:12pm) References: <22049.895702347@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Frank Pawlak" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: Amancio Hasty , Gary Kline , freebsd@atipa.com (Atipa), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 20, 3:12pm, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > So, is it studing fish or developing excellent software that clangs you bell? > > "Yes!" :-) > > - Jordan >-- End of excerpt from Jordan K. Hubbard Schizophrenia!! Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:53:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27789 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:53:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27705 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-2-100.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.138.228]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id VAA12661; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:52:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00724; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:52:29 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980521025224.ZM723@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:52:24 +0000 In-Reply-To: cupples_s@4j.lane.edu "Re: www.openbsd.com" (May 20, 2:34pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: cupples_s@4j.lane.edu Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Huh!! On May 20, 2:34pm, cupples_s@4j.lane.edu wrote: > Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com > I wouldn't assume so, did you read there security page, I think tat they > are really on to somthing. I say that we secure FreeBSD that same way that > they did remove all shells I mean who needs them, right... > > Shawn Cupples > South Eugene High School > (541) 687-3122 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from cupples_s@4j.lane.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:54:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28048 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27965 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-2-100.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.138.228]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id VAA16658; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:53:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00728; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:53:46 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980521025345.ZM727@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:53:45 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason" "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 20, 5:34pm) References: <024401bd8437$15104f20$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason" , "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Amancio Hasty" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 20, 5:34pm, Jason wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > >what platform it runs on. That's market control, the buyer has virtually > no > >say in what gets implemented. It is either the M$ solution or nothing. > You > >either develop to the M$ standard or you don't develop at all. All of this > > Ahhh, your expecting me to take this seriously? Frank > Who says that....if all the app venders and users get sick and tired of > windows and microsoft then they should abegin developing their apps for > other platforms and begin promoting it to the public. Its not a hard thing > to do to make an app run on other OSs. > > Jason > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 19:58:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28744 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:58:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28643 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:58:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA26069; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:27:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980521122756.Q22701@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:27:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: The Hermit Hacker , Chris Peiffer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD is like Linux (was: Bet you didn't know...) References: <19980521101900.H22701@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:45:10PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998 at 19:45:10 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > On Thu, 21 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Wed, 20 May 1998 at 11:04:56 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: >>> On Wed, 20 May 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >>> >>>> Bet you didn't know we were a "Linux-like operating system", eh? >>>> >>>> http://www.netnomics.com/linux/en/ >>> >>> HAHAHAHA... some people are born with no clue at all. >>> "FreeBSD is a Linux-like software with a good reputation for network >>> management or servers." >> >> What's wrong with that? FreeBSD *is* like Linux. Considering the >> perspective, I think it's a very nice thing to say. I'm going to >> write to the author and suggest he put in a link to >> http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > I already did. He replied right away. He seemed like a nice guy > and I think the problem was in translation with foreign language. I'll see > to it that he runs FreeBSD by the end of the month too. *grin* Go for it! > I hope you have yet to send him eMail .. he might think FreeBSD > people are ought to get him... :) Yes, I haven't sent him any mail yet, so I won't bother. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 20:25:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03871 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03797 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01060; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:24:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35639E5D.1221C481@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:24:13 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: "Jan B. Koum" , The Hermit Hacker , Chris Peiffer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD is like Linux (was: Bet you didn't know...) References: <19980521101900.H22701@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Hermit Hacker wrote: % Bet you didn't know we were a "Linux-like operating system", eh? Greg Lehey wrote: > What's wrong with that? FreeBSD *is* like Linux. Considering the > perspective, I think it's a very nice thing to say. I'm going to > write to the author and suggest he put in a link to > http://www.FreeBSD.org/ Hermit, get a grip! I agree with Greg, it was complimentary. Reading between the lines, I see "FreeBSD is a free UNIX system that runs on PCs, like Linux, but is known to be more stable and therefore makes an ideal high-powered internet server." I shoulda been a copy editor instead of a propeller-head, huh? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 20:44:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06482 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (tc-48.acadiau.ca [131.162.2.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06401 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.8.8/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA17881; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:44:08 -0300 (ADT) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:44:07 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Wes Peters cc: Greg Lehey , "Jan B. Koum" , Chris Peiffer , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD is like Linux (was: Bet you didn't know...) In-Reply-To: <35639E5D.1221C481@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > % Bet you didn't know we were a "Linux-like operating system", eh? > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > What's wrong with that? FreeBSD *is* like Linux. Considering the > > perspective, I think it's a very nice thing to say. I'm going to > > write to the author and suggest he put in a link to > > http://www.FreeBSD.org/ > > Hermit, get a grip! I agree with Greg, it was complimentary. Reading > between the lines, I see "FreeBSD is a free UNIX system that runs on > PCs, like Linux, but is known to be more stable and therefore makes an > ideal high-powered internet server." I'm sorry, but it kinda grated on my nerves the way *I* read it...my interpretation of something being *like* something else is that its an imitation that isn't quite as good as the original *shrug* Being Linux-like, to me, was saying "similar to, but not as good as"...but, again, that was *my* interpretation... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 20:46:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06824 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01128; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:44:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3563A305.54564AC4@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:44:05 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Harvey CC: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au, grog@lemis.com, peter.jeremy@alcatel.com.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: StrongARM and history References: <199805210208.TAA01396@random.teraflop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ross Harvey and Greg Lemis argued back and forth: > >Compaq seem pretty smart people, and all evidence to the contrary, I > >think that they are not overly interested in being in bed with > >Microsoft. They build hardware. The NC is hardware. Why shouldn't > >they be interested? They don't have to be the ones who give it away. > > Your statements are correct, as far as they go. But I think what > you are missing is: [1] the NC is _cheap_ hardware, the high-end > PC's are (or were, at the time the NC project began) a lot more > expensive. And [2], note what "DNARD" stands for: "Digital Network > Appliance Reference Design". "Reference Design" as in: given away, > with schematics, dimensions, free cool NetBSD software (with some > FreeBSD stuff, too), and active solicitation for _anyone_ to make > them. Even if it was exactly a PC there are obvious reasons why > Compaq _might_ have prefered not to be doing that. I'm not sure how > big a discussion this is worth, though, since [1] I'm just speculating, > and [2] we are kind of beating this compaq vs NC point to death. And you both missed the important point: Compaq didn't get the part of DEC that makes microprocessors in the great DEC sell-off, Intel did. The DNARD was a typical effort by microprocessor vendors; look at examples from Fujitsu (SPARClite), Hitachi (SH series), Sun Microelectronics (embedded SPARC), etc. Compaq is probably not interested in DNARD because *they don't own it.* And give Compaq some credit. They've made a lot of weird machines over the years, but they pretty much lead the charge into the low- cost PC market with several of their Presario models. If there is money to be made in NCs, NPCs, or any other "thin" computers, they will probably be there, too. This is a market that is still in its infancy, and will probably be a well-entrenched technology 5 years from now. Right now, it's bleeding edge, from the standpoint of the hardware, the software, and the 'what to do with it.' -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 20:57:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08529 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:57:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08209 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:55:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05215; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008801bd846c$c3ea79a0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Amancio Hasty" , "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:58:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On May 20, 11:53am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >This is your lament. You speak with mixed voices. First >you favor to fight your own battles, as do I. Then you say you >don't care whether M$ has you on the hit list. I have seen >numerous post where you expressed the joy and rewards >received from writting free software, so don't accuse me of >not carefully reading you writing. Where will those rewards >come from once the free software ideal is crushed. Yes >perhaps There will always be some place where free software >is used, but don't try to convince me that a person with your >passion being involved with the FreeBSD project won't feel a >big loss if M$ or anyone else sould crush the project. That my >friend is impingment on you freedom, and you tell me you don't >give a damn. In the end it is how reedom is defined. I don't think there is much MS can do to FreeBSD. It not like they are going to get cheaper than FreeBSD. What are they going to pay people to switch? Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 21:02:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09302 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09205 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07011; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009f01bd846d$89181340$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jan B. Koum " Cc: Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:03:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On May 20, 3:57pm, Jason wrote: >> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >> >On May 18, 1:45pm, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> >> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >> >> >> >> Stop smoking crack. This is not about Bill Gates having too much >> >> money. This is about monopoly. Go read some history with the following >> >> keywords: Standard Oil, AT&T. >> >> Monopoly is bad for economy. Monopoly does not help the economy. >> >> Monopoly should be stopped. >> >> >> >> -- Yan >> >> >> > >> >Right on bro! >> > >> >Frank >> > >> > >> What monopoly would that be? Microsoft is no more a monopoly than GM is. >> > >What hole in the ground have you had your head buried in? There is a hell of a >lot more competition in the auto industry than in the operating system >business. > >Frank In Detroit of all places :) And That's my point exactly. There is a lot of competition in the Auto industry as there is in Operating systems/browsers. Just because GM is bigger than all the Japanese companies combined doesn't mean they are a threat to competition. As a matter of fact the big three decided that since they couldn't compete effectively with the imports they bought most of them. Ever notice that some imports and domestic vehicles looking exactly the same....wonder why that is :). They either buy the company or work as partners making the car and put different names on it. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 21:25:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14111 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:25:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13973 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:25:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-89.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.217]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id XAA24207; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:24:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00960; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:24:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980521042454.ZM959@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:24:54 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason" "Re: Why we should support Microsoft..." (May 20, 11:58pm) References: <008801bd846c$c3ea79a0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason" , "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Cc: "Amancio Hasty" , "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 20, 11:58pm, Jason wrote: > Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > >On May 20, 11:53am, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > >This is your lament. You speak with mixed voices. First > >you favor to fight your own battles, as do I. Then you say you > >don't care whether M$ has you on the hit list. I have seen > >numerous post where you expressed the joy and rewards > >received from writting free software, so don't accuse me of > >not carefully reading you writing. Where will those rewards > >come from once the free software ideal is crushed. Yes > >perhaps There will always be some place where free software > >is used, but don't try to convince me that a person with your > >passion being involved with the FreeBSD project won't feel a > >big loss if M$ or anyone else sould crush the project. That my > >friend is impingment on you freedom, and you tell me you don't > >give a damn. In the end it is how reedom is defined. > > > I don't think there is much MS can do to FreeBSD. It not like they are > going to get cheaper than FreeBSD. What are they going to pay people to > switch? > Jason, you fail to understand how monopoly power works in the market place. M$ already dominates the desktop OS environment, and are gaining ground in the server market. Open source software is presently not well received in the corporate world. The more M$ dominates the less chance any competitive OS has of getting accepted much less gain market share. You are clearly missing the big picture or are very naive and are equating the "cult users" of free software with the commercial world where the money is made in software. Monopoly power very simply means that there is one supplier and everyone else is out or going out of the business. There are no other choices. Compared to M$ FreeBSD is hardly a blip on anyone's radar screen, and the more they dominate the smaller that blip will get until it disappears. After reading a few of your posts, I wonder if you are just not making arguments for arguments sake. Frank > Jason >-- End of excerpt from Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 21:31:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15335 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15223 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01228; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:30:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3563ADF1.D265F879@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:30:41 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: talk (fwd) References: <20996.895689524@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I'll open the round of nostalgia with some comments on how freaking > NICE the NS32K architecture was. And yeah, I own a PC532. The PC532 was an amazing development, you just don't see open hardware like that anymore. IIRC, the PC523 grew out the 'net station' project, were a bunch of hardware and software hackers on USENET were soliciting attempts to make a new workstation architecture developed entired on the net. I was involved with a group centered around Weber State University and the software community at Hill AFB who developed one of the architectures. The idea was the community would develope several systems and the "best" would win the hearts and minds of the community. What actually happened was that the PC532 was the first out with working hardware *and* an OS, and everyone else stopped. Ours was based on the AMD 29020, which had a nice set of support chips available from AMD, including SCSI and ethernet. We actually had a hacked-up first unit running off an AMD proto board, several ancillary boards, some ribbon cables, and one wire-wrapped mess. We didn't have a floppy controller, and CD-ROMs hadn't been invented yet. We called our little machine the "SPUDstation" because some of the AMD chips came from the fab plant in Boise, and because we'd rounded up a bunch of plastic potatoes about 12 x 8 inches to put the board in when we were done. We had the serial console, SCSI, and ethernet working and were able to load code over the network using the AMD boot monitor, and were working on the 4.3 BSD locore.s and task-switch when the PC532 was announced. One of the group got a PC532 and everyone just stopped. It was mildly heart breaking to see all that work come to naught. I've never written a line of 29K assembler code since then (and probably never will now). Sigh. Those *were* the glory days, when I was young and single and it was OK to take a week off work to spend 14 hour days in a lab with other guys hacking on something that would never make any of us a dime. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 21:40:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17313 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17200 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA26551; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:09:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980521140941.V22701@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:09:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I have seen the future of computing, and its name is AcuCobol.. References: <21349.895691949@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <21349.895691949@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:19:09PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998 at 12:19:09 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > http://www.acucobol.com/Products/ACUCOBOL-85/A85-23WP.html It's been a hard day, hasn't it? But why this (enormous) particular web page? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 21:43:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17915 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17795 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 21:42:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (localhost.softweyr.com [127.0.0.1]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01250; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:42:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3563B0B9.649E9387@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:42:33 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dandugger CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com References: <18351937.5.716@mx1-11.onmedia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dandugger wrote: > > what's up with www.openbsd.com? did openbsd really hack freebsd? > -dan.... It seems highly likely it's sole intention is to piss off the OpenBSD people. This is NOT an admirable goal, it's much more amusing to piss off my former employer and their software demon-spawn twin, also known as the Evil Wintel Empire (tm). Remember: they want EWE! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 22:41:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28155 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:41:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28141 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:41:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from localhost (crb@localhost) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA01584; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:42:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) X-Authentication-Warning: quark.ChrisBowman.com: crb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:42:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Christopher R. Bowman" To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Drunk penguins In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Thank god our mascot is copyrighted, patented, whatever: > http://www.budice.com/images/penqbot.gif I don't think this helps, satire or critical comment is a specific catagory of protected fair use. --------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com My home page To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 20 23:14:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03383 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nexus.astro.psu.edu (nexus.astro.psu.edu [128.118.147.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA03374 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:14:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@astro.psu.edu) Received: from mstar.astro.psu.edu by nexus.astro.psu.edu (4.1/Nexus-1.3) id AA08127; Thu, 21 May 98 02:14:13 EDT Received: by mstar.astro.psu.edu (SMI-8.6/Client-1.3) id CAA11506; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:14:09 -0400 Message-Id: <19980521021409.A11475@mstar.astro.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:14:09 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: Jahan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: zipped version of ports are worng References: <3564850D.89115DD5@pc.jaring.my> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3564850D.89115DD5@pc.jaring.my>; from Jahan on Thu, May 21, 1998 at 12:48:29PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 12:48:29PM -0700, Jahan wrote: > Oh. :0 And I know it's my bedtime when I wonder why you stuck $DISPLAY at the end of your line... -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 00:05:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11604 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:05:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (csnet.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA11592 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:05:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd [132.68.32.8]) by csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA05389; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:04:54 +0300 Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA23296; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:05:30 +0300 Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:05:30 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Chuck Robey cc: Soren Kristensen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Original PC and talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to chat) On Wed, 20 May 1998, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Wed, 20 May 1998, Soren Kristensen wrote: > > > Lets get it clear why IBM choose the 8088: > > [snip] > > Actually, as just about any modern text shows, the X86 architecture is > the slowest one out there. Take a look at one of the recent Hennesey & > Patterson texts, you'll see. > > even with its limited number of > > registers. And who writes code in assembler anymore ? > > Which is precisely why you don't want a processor that makes life easy > on assembly language writers, the compilers are the only ones spewing > assembly anymore, you want a processor to execute instructions FAST. > Intel's X86 architecture is miserable for real optimization, although > one must admit that Intel has done just about everything they could do > to make a horrible instruction set go quickly. All the tricks they use, > the RISC processors use, but the RISC processors are designed to make > best use of those tricks, and the X86 architecture isn't. > > All those tricks (the same ones) are why processors like theDEC Alpha > are so hot. Things like register renaming don't give you much > improvement if you're talking about such a tiny humber of registers to > begin with (referring to the X86 here). And the Alpha (except for the coming 21264) doesn't even do register renaming, or out of order execution. All it does is execute its instruction set _FAST_, and have enough memory bandwidth to feed the core. > > > > > And with todays chips sizes the underlying processor architecture dosn't > > matter so much anyway, it's more a matter of cache sizes and memory > > bandwidth. > > There was actually a short time where the new Pentium Pro-200 was the > > fastest processor in the world, measured in specint95 and specfp95.... > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > Soren Kristensen > > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic (FreeBSD-current) > (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (NetBSD). > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 00:07:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11989 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw5.pacbell.net (mail-gw5.pacbell.net [206.13.28.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA11918 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:07:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-91.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.91]) by mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id AAA15770; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:06:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: , "John Brann" Cc: Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:01:48 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8486$52dc5f20$18d0d6cf@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: Ben Cohen To: John Brann Cc: Jonathan M. Bresler ; jkh@time.cdrom.com ; hasty@rah.star-gate.com ; kline@tera.tera.com ; freebsd@atipa.com ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 6:26 PM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >> > > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business >> > > > pratice? >> > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. >> > [snip a lot about microsoft] >> > >> > the DOJ should strive to break microsoft into two companies: >> > an operating system firm and an applications firm. microsoft >> > uses its os to force applcations upon users. microsoft >> > has stolen apps that it failed to write. some of these >> > have been added to the os product package. >> > >> [SNIP] > >How about forcing MS to release their OS source code? Perhaps under >a licence such as the Berkeley one or, I think more realistically, >something more like GPL. > >Ben. the loss of touch editing because of microsoft is a business crime. the MS OS should be nationalized. this is MS's cash cow. all the rest of their software really sucks, but they have enourmous cash to fund Bill Gates aquisition of the world. Microsoft general counsel William Neukom. He argued that Windows does not have a monopoly in operating system software, citing the Unix, O/S 2 and Apple Computer Inc. Not. the OS is a monopoly and should be nationalized. the rest of the company produces mediore application software, about where apple was some 7 years ago. apple couldn't multitask, but Win 95 would rank some 4th or 5th (out of about 7) in ability to multitask. their huge competitive advantage is feeding advertising with the outrageous cost for the operating system. either the enginneers earn $1M/year or they just don't put that much money into it. ask gates how he would valuate that split? it will be tough, because there is no good fiscal answer. any application should run on any OS, not only on the market leaders. it's a natural monopoly and should be nationalized. don't disallow competing products, hope for them. writing in a scheduled down time for the organization would further encourage competition. 10/10/10/n:10/10/10/N To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 01:34:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25610 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:34:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25581 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA24140; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:34:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: talk (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 22:30:41 MDT." <3563ADF1.D265F879@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:34:55 -0700 Message-ID: <24136.895739695@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The PC532 was an amazing development, you just don't see open hardware > like that anymore. IIRC, the PC523 grew out the 'net station' project, > were a bunch of hardware and software hackers on USENET were soliciting > attempts to make a new workstation architecture developed entired on > the net. Yeah, the way I heard it, Dave Rand and George Scolaro really really first and foremost wanted to use the machine as a UUCP feed master, which is why there are 10 serial ports on the motherboard of the PC532. :-) That machine was also responsible for teaching me Minix (where my sole contribution was a kernel task which ponged the 8 LEDs on the I/O port back and forth rather than simply run in the idle loop :) and really introducing me to the internals of forth. A friend and I ported an 8086 interpreter for fig-forth to ns32k assembly in one weekend (including all the disk and console I/O) and that's also probably the most fun I've ever had writing in assembly - the NS32K has a truly elegant instruction set that makes such programming enjoyable. I still have fond visions of getting NetBSD up on mine again and using it as a fancy console/modem/dialin server. Seems a shame to have all those nice serial ports go to waste. :) > We had the serial console, SCSI, and ethernet working and were able to > load code over the network using the AMD boot monitor, and were working > on the 4.3 BSD locore.s and task-switch when the PC532 was announced. > One of the group got a PC532 and everyone just stopped. It was mildly That's actually a pity considering that _we_ never got an ethernet solution working for ours (well, there was the SCSInet stuff, but it never really came to fruition) and that really limited its subsequent utility. :( - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 02:07:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01312 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:07:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from skraldespand.demos.su (skraldespand.demos.su [194.87.5.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA01291 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 02:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mishania@skraldespand.demos.su) Received: by skraldespand.demos.su id NAA10048; (8.8.8/D) Thu, 21 May 1998 13:07:05 +0400 (MSD) Message-ID: <19980521130704.02510@demos.su> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:07:04 +0400 From: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" To: Jason Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft. References: <022b01bd8434$cf24c060$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <022b01bd8434$cf24c060$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net>; from Jason on Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:18:13PM -0400 Organization: Demos Company, Ltd., Moscow, Russian Federation. X-Point-of-View: Gravity is myth, - the earth sucks. X-Useless-Header: Look ma! It's a # sign! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:18:13PM -0400, Jason wrote: # # Now if it is found out that MS is involved in muder and gambling or # something else ilegal then there is a case....but unless they can find # something like MS forcing OEMs do something like: not allowing them to # install something that consumers might want. Interesting. Anybody ever thought of say, contracting someone so that their boxes come with preinstalled FreeBSD or, at least, shipping the CD's? # # Jason -- -mishania To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 03:21:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13305 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 03:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cc-server9 (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA13298 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 03:20:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from acme.gen.nz by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz id <11693-0@cc-server9.massey.ac.nz>; Thu, 21 May 1998 22:19:55 +1200 Received: from officedonkey by acme.gen.nz with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0ycLbm-0028zsC; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:01:30 +1200 Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Craig Harding Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:49:31 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Reply-to: crh@outpost.co.nz CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com References: Your message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 20:05:08 -0000." <980520200508.ZM1604@darkstar.connect.com> In-reply-to: <21723.895695616@time.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > to _have_ an opinion conflicting with his own. If Microsoft stomps > us flat and the market "allows" this to happen by not embracing our > technology instead then what's the reward for me in trying to lead a > foolish and undeserving market away from the consequences of its own > folly? None. That's only a recipe for heartache and I'll be much > more inclined to return my attention to the much-neglected (for me) > subject of Oceanography before I'll waste my time and energies in > such fruitless pursuits. This is where you're missing an important point. Monopoly isn't just a word, it means that the "market" has no say in things at all. It doesn't matter whether the market is foolish and undeserving or not, it doesn't have a choice. The only player with any power to influence the outcome is M$. That's why enlightened countries have decent anti-trust law, and realise that a free market doesn't work in a complete absence of regulation. Ask me about NZ's telecommuncations infrastructure sometime. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 05:03:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24700 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:03:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24691 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:03:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09270 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:58:38 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35641724.95ACE21B@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:59:32 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Atipa wrote: > > But what makes this a monopoly? We all have the ability to choose > products, and noone is taking that away. it's as if an oil company with a large market share licensed a type of fuel tank filler that only works with their pumps to all the major car manufacturers, and only sold fuel to car owners that have one. result: maybe not quite a monopoly, but not exactly healthy competition... > As I stated in other e-mails, we are missing the big picture. We need > to focus on promoting emerging technologies, instead of stunting > existing ones. Then we can all be winners. They should be investigating > MS's poisoning of Java instead of their integrated browser. or even just that new computers don't come with a separate partition to install another OS onto without disrupting the primary one... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 05:35:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29230 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29181; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805211235.FAA29181@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: from Ben Cohen at "May 20, 98 11:38:17 pm" To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 05:35:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jbrann@brann.org, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ben Cohen wrote: > > > > > So what is your suggestion on how should the DOJ treat Microsoft business > > > > > pratice? > > > > I recommend that the DOJ just leave Microsoft the hell alone. > > > [snip a lot about microsoft] > > > > > > the DOJ should strive to break microsoft into two companies: > > > an operating system firm and an applications firm. microsoft > > > uses its os to force applcations upon users. microsoft > > > has stolen apps that it failed to write. some of these > > > have been added to the os product package. > > > > > [SNIP] > > How about forcing MS to release their OS source code? Perhaps under > a licence such as the Berkeley one or, I think more realistically, > something more like GPL. that's a different idea ;) microsoft uses their operating system to dominate the apps market. i would like to see that practice stopped. microsoft redefines what is part of the operating system as desired to gut the profitability of other companies products. while one can argue that stacker really should be part of the operating system, i dont believe one can argue that a web browser could be. web browsers are clearly apps which may be expanded to provide the GUI for the box. microsoft needs to be split to prevent these two anti-competitive practices. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 05:57:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02507 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:57:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02436; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:56:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805211256.FAA02436@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <21093.895690380@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 20, 98 11:53:00 am" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 05:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > FWIW, I don't believe in anti-trust laws either. If it's in mankind's > nature to create and support robber barons in their pillaging then > mankind deserves whatever it gets, period. This whole legal system > for regulating our own worst impulses has always struck me as > equivalent to hitting oneself repeatedly with a hammer and then > pointing to the first-aid kit every time someone comes up and asks you > what you're doing about this weird compulsion you have to harm > yourself. It's not solving the fundamental problem and it's not going > to get any closer to solving the fundamental problem as you make it > more and more complex and intrusive. Maybe that makes me an > Anarchist. I don't really mind. :-) the fundamental problem is not solvable, at least as far as i can see. anti-trust laws allieviate some of the results of the fundamental problem, no more than that. this unfortunate state of affairs is common to many aspects of life. look at what we put up with in terms of processor architecture (x86)--yeech! we cant solve the basic problem, but we can take steps the ameliorate the effects of the architecture on FreeBSD as a whole. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 08:02:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20072 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20058 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:02:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10211; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:02:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <356441EB.A94B8B3B@plutotech.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:02:03 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I have seen the future of computing, and its name is AcuCobol.. References: <21349.895691949@time.cdrom.com> <19980521140941.V22701@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But why this (enormous) particular web page? I wonder if it has something to do with the Cobol portable bytecode and the Cobol virtual machine ... sound familiar? :-) --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 08:26:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24237 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic32.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24224; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id IAA25601; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:30 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <21093.895690380@time.cdrom.com> <199805211256.FAA02436@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805211256.FAA02436@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Thu, May 21, 1998 at 05:56:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 05:56:41AM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > FWIW, I don't believe in anti-trust laws either. If it's in mankind's > > nature to create and support robber barons in their pillaging then > > mankind deserves whatever it gets, period. This whole legal system > > for regulating our own worst impulses has always struck me as > > equivalent to hitting oneself repeatedly with a hammer and then > > pointing to the first-aid kit every time someone comes up and asks you > > what you're doing about this weird compulsion you have to harm > > yourself. It's not solving the fundamental problem and it's not going > > to get any closer to solving the fundamental problem as you make it > > more and more complex and intrusive. Maybe that makes me an > > Anarchist. I don't really mind. :-) > > the fundamental problem is not solvable, at least as far > as i can see. anti-trust laws allieviate some of the > results of the fundamental problem, no more than that. > yes, yes. Enough of this. Bill Gates and company are a monopoly, yes. They are in volation of US anti-trust laws, yes, The justice department is setting a bad presidence trying to tell microsoft how to write software, yes. All these things are true, so what were you planing on doing about this? Quoting Ann Ryan is not a solution. Ann Ryan was a 3rd rate novelist and a great one for not letting facts and common scene get in the way her crackpot theory's. To paraphrase, the quasi-fascist, Ubermench rantings of a 3rd rate novelist is no basis for a system of government. All this whining and posturing remind me of kids complaining about the rules of a game. My kids were big on this; they would start to play Monopoly and then when things were not going their way they would complain about the rules. Sorry guys, but here in America, in the closing years of the 20th century, this is the way things are. You are unhappy about the way things are? Fine, what are you planing on doing about it? When was the last time any one of you wrote or called your elected representative. You say he/she is unresponsive to to you? Fine, elect another one. Thats right, fire the bozo. In theory they are employees of "We the people". Go out and _WORK_ to change things. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. (My past is beginning to show) The fact is this is not going to end tomorrow. This case is going to drag on for YEARS. IBM and DOJ slugged it out for 13 years. Say what you will, and any of you who know me know there is no love in my heart for microsoft but you have to give them this, they do not back down, they stand their ground. What is really pissing me off about this entire thread is all of you have missed the fact this this is a golden opportunity to advance FreeBSD. In case you have not noticed, FreeBSD is in microsoft's cross-hairs. At the last BAFUG meeting I had a conversation with the head tech person at a large ISP here in the bay area know for it's use of FreeBSD. He told me the story of how microsoft was putting serious pressure on ISPs to drop Unix in general and switch to NT. microsoft was at the same time going behind this ISP's back and telling their suppliers and major customers that this ISP was switching to NT and when were they (the customer) going to switch to NT. microsoft was then telling this large ISP that all of the ISP's customers were switching to NT and the customers wanted to know when was the ISP going to switch. I have heard this from other people and other ISPs. This combined with NT's disaster over at HotMail leads me to this; microsoft knows who we are and they are coming after us. NT's growth is not coming at the expense of Unix but at the expense of Novell. microsoft is not having much luck in the server and/or ISP market. Not as much as they would want. We, along with Linux, are doing very well in the small to medium size ISP. microsoft knows this and they know that NT does not scale well and so they don't bother much with the very large ISPs like AOL. Where they are beginning to push hard is with the small and med size ISP and that means coming after FreeBSD and Linux. So, rather then spend all out time theorizing about anti-trust and Objectivism (or what ever they are calling Ann Ryan's bullshit these days) lets focus on how we can make the FreeBSD the OS of choice for the ISP and server market and fuck microsoft & the horse they rode in on. Josef "maybe I should switch to decaf" Grosch -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 08:53:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28286 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:53:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA28274; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23124; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:52:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805211552.IAA23124@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , fpawlak@execpc.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:30 PDT." <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:52:47 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 05:56:41AM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > At the last BAFUG meeting I had a conversation with the head tech person at > a large ISP here in the bay area know for it's use of FreeBSD. He told me > the story of how microsoft was putting serious pressure on ISPs to drop > Unix in general and switch to NT. microsoft was at the same time going > behind this ISP's back and telling their suppliers and major customers that > this ISP was switching to NT and when were they (the customer) going to > switch to NT. microsoft was then telling this large ISP that all of the > ISP's customers were switching to NT and the customers wanted to know when > was the ISP going to switch. I have heard this from other people and other > ISPs. > It sounds like a good sales strategy can we convince the sales person to switch to FreeBSD! Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:13:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01276 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01252 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:13:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no (2602@gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.40]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id SAA14086; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:12:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:12:54 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.moral-defense.org/home.html References: <199805201544.IAA09956@rah.star-gate.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 May 1998 18:12:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: Amancio Hasty's message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 08:44:06 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty writes: > It is interesting that the Pro Microsoft Web Site is running > Linux and Apache 8) The only thing missing from the web site > is the powered by linux or linux logo... Not only does the site run on a Linux server, it was designed on a Mac. I wouldn't be surprised to learn the the Committee for the Moral Defense of Microsoft was, in fact, financed by Microsoft itself. -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:25:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03026 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02991; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23301; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805211625.JAA23301@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , fpawlak@execpc.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Enough already! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:30 PDT." <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:20 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What is really pissing me off about this entire thread is all of you have > missed the fact this this is a golden opportunity to advance FreeBSD. In case > you have not noticed, FreeBSD is in microsoft's cross-hairs. I strongly agree with Joseph here . The DOJ and Distric Attornies are opening a window of opportunity for alternative solutions . I think that the DOJ should spell it out to the FreeBSD , linux , Be or any other OS . In fact let me try to spell it out : T.h.i.s i.s y.o.u.r g.o.l.d.e.n o.p.p.o.r.t.u.n.i.t.y G.o. f.o.r. i.t. . F.o.r. I d.o.n.'t k.n.o.w h.o.w l.o.n.g w.i.l.l I b.e a.b.l.e t.o h.o.l.d o.f.f M.i.c.r.o.s.o.f.t > > At the last BAFUG meeting I had a conversation with the head tech person at > a large ISP here in the bay area know for it's use of FreeBSD. He told me > the story of how microsoft was putting serious pressure on ISPs to drop > Unix in general and switch to NT. microsoft was at the same time going > behind this ISP's back and telling their suppliers and major customers that > this ISP was switching to NT and when were they (the customer) going to > switch to NT. microsoft was then telling this large ISP that all of the > ISP's customers were switching to NT and the customers wanted to know when > was the ISP going to switch. I have heard this from other people and other > ISPs. > For starters , any large FreeBSD ISP who is approached by microsoft with bullshit lines like above should forward a complain to the DOJ or to a Friendly District Attorney for your local District Attoney may be siding with Microsoft. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:25:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03072 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03029 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no (2602@gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.40]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id SAA15037; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:25:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:25:35 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.moral-defense.org/home.html References: <199805201544.IAA09956@rah.star-gate.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 May 1998 18:25:34 +0200 In-Reply-To: Amancio Hasty's message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 08:44:06 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty writes: > It is interesting that the Pro Microsoft Web Site is running > Linux and Apache 8) The only thing missing from the web site > is the powered by linux or linux logo... Interesting Fact One: the moral-defense.org domain is registered to a Bahamas address. Interesting Fact Two: it was created three months ago - three months *before* the suit was filed. Exhibit One: dag-erli@gjallarhorn ~$ whois moral-defense.org Committee Moral Defense Of Microsoft (MORAL-DEFENSE-DOM) PO Box F45518 Freeport, Grand Bahamas F45518 BAHAMAS Domain Name: MORAL-DEFENSE.ORG Administrative Contact: Cunha, Mark Da (MDC111) mdc@BATELNET.BS 242-352 5729 (FAX) 242-351 4436 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Albarracin, Al (AA1347) DNS@DIALTONEINTERNET.NET 1(954) 450-6123 (FAX) 1(954) 437-3907 Billing Contact: Cunha, Mark Da (MDC111) mdc@BATELNET.BS 242-352 5729 (FAX) 242-351 4436 Record last updated on 26-Feb-98. Record created on 26-Feb-98. Database last updated on 21-May-98 03:54:48 EDT. -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:28:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA03733 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03606 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:28:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no (2602@gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.40]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id SAA15188; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:27:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:27:57 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I have seen the future of computing, and its name is AcuCobol.. References: <21349.895691949@time.cdrom.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 May 1998 18:27:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard"'s message of "Wed, 20 May 1998 12:19:09 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > http://www.acucobol.com/Products/ACUCOBOL-85/A85-23WP.html Hey, I have the tape and the manual at home! (evaluation version, don't remember what platform or the release date) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:31:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04598 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flarn.dyn.ml.org (mph@usr108.third-wave.com [147.72.122.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04583 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@flarn.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from mph@localhost) by flarn.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28818; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:31:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980521123102.A28705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:31:02 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: Greg Lehey , 7e9aedd97b5ec4590edb8281ff12b168 , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mountd problem (?) References: <19980521180454.G27201@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980521180454.G27201@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, May 21, 1998 at 06:04:54PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 06:04:54PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thu, 21 May 1998 at 1:04:08 -0500, 7e9aedd97b5ec4590edb8281ff12b168 wrote: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > You must hate your parents. Hm. flarn:~$ echo "Matthew Hunt" | md5 | cut -f 3 936e9043e78e5d2d4da946df4d600dc2 So... anyone want to try to brute-force his name? :-) Sincerely, 0d2be2948013b41626bb3a43620ecb1c -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:31:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04686 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04640 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no (2602@gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.40]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id SAA15435; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:31:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:31:22 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Christopher R. Bowman" Cc: "Jan B. Koum " , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Drunk penguins References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 May 1998 18:31:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Christopher R. Bowman"'s message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 01:42:30 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Christopher R. Bowman" writes: > On Wed, 20 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Thank god our mascot is copyrighted, patented, whatever: > > http://www.budice.com/images/penqbot.gif > I don't think this helps, satire or critical comment is a specific > catagory of protected fair use. It's not satire, it's a Bud commercial. I suspect that these people have quite simply never heard of Linux (or of UNIX, for that matter) and couldn't care less. -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07345 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flarn.dyn.ml.org (mph@usr108.third-wave.com [147.72.122.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07307 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@flarn.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from mph@localhost) by flarn.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28865; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:38:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mph) Message-ID: <19980521123814.B28705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:38:14 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" , Jason Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft. References: <022b01bd8434$cf24c060$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> <19980521130704.02510@demos.su> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980521130704.02510@demos.su>; from Mikhail A. Sokolov on Thu, May 21, 1998 at 01:07:04PM +0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 01:07:04PM +0400, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > Interesting. Anybody ever thought of say, contracting someone so that > their boxes come with preinstalled FreeBSD or, at least, shipping the CD's? I've worked on FreeBSD boxes purchased from Apache Digital, www.apache.com. Not www.apache.org, that's different. :-) -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 09:49:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08675 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08640; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26860; Thu, 21 May 1998 09:49:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:30 PDT." <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 09:49:46 -0700 Message-ID: <26857.895769386@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Josef "maybe I should switch to decaf" Grosch "You go, girl!" :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 10:01:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10952 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10925; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26959; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:01:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 08:26:30 PDT." <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:01:10 -0700 Message-ID: <26954.895770070@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At the last BAFUG meeting I had a conversation with the head tech person at > a large ISP here in the bay area know for it's use of FreeBSD. He told me > the story of how microsoft was putting serious pressure on ISPs to drop > Unix in general and switch to NT. microsoft was at the same time going Those rats. Well, in some ways, this is good and let me tell you why: NT is just plain NOT READY YET, a fact which most admins who've attempted to seriously deploy it in the field are well aware of, and by pushing it into places where it's not appropriate to push it yet, M$ is doing an excellent job of shooting their feet off. Once so burned, even the most middle-of-the-road admin is going to become a fire-and-brimstone evangelist in the cause of free Unix and that's really good for us. Someday NT _will_ be ready, the inevitable outcome of having an infinite number of monkeys and $$$ to throw at the problem, and when it does there will be a whole slew of folks who aren't even willing to look at it because they were just screwed too badly during its less stable days. Well, that's my theory, anyway. :-) But yes, we should focus on leveraging this fact (NT ain't ready) and do as much grass-roots advertising of our own as we can. As some military guy was once reputed to have said: "Give me the boy from 5 to 12 and I'll give you the man." People tend to stick with what works, if you can keep the pointy-haired bosses out of the decision (and that's a factor we'll always have to keep well in mind). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 10:05:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11869 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:05:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11508; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26996; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Amancio Hasty cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fpawlak@execpc.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 09:25:20 PDT." <199805211625.JAA23301@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:04:00 -0700 Message-ID: <26992.895770240@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For starters , any large FreeBSD ISP who is approached by microsoft with > bullshit lines like above should forward a complain to the DOJ or to > a Friendly District Attorney for your local District Attoney may be > siding with Microsoft. No, they should contact US. Contacting the DOJ is only a good way of getting your piece of paper added to the growing mountain whereas we can make a lot of public noise about it and maybe even call in a sympathetic journalist or two (and catching M$ in a dirty raincoat handing out candy at the playground always makes for a good story). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 11:21:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26584 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 11:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26576 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 11:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10412; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:20:49 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA01547; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:20:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980521202047.37729@follo.net> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:20:47 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: http://www.moral-defense.org/home.html References: <199805201544.IAA09956@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpra1nzj41=2Efsf=40gjallarhorn=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_May_21=2C_1?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?998_at_06=3A25=3A34PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 06:25:34PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Amancio Hasty writes: > > It is interesting that the Pro Microsoft Web Site is running > > Linux and Apache 8) The only thing missing from the web site > > is the powered by linux or linux logo... > > Interesting Fact One: the moral-defense.org domain is registered to a > Bahamas address. > > Interesting Fact Two: it was created three months ago - three months > *before* the suit was filed. Interesting Fact Three: The owner does not respond to e-mail. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 12:29:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09400 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:29:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09354 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:29:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA00534; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:28:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199805211928.NAA00534@softweyr.com> Subject: Re: I have seen the future of computing, and its name is AcuCobol.. In-Reply-To: <356441EB.A94B8B3B@plutotech.com> from Sean Kelly at "May 21, 98 09:02:03 am" To: kelly@plutotech.com (Sean Kelly) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:28:54 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I wonder if it has something to do with the Cobol portable bytecode and > the Cobol virtual machine ... sound familiar? :-) Vaguely. Perhaps we can convince Cygnus to kick off CygCobol, a Cobol-to-JVM compiler? With automagic screens-to-html-forms conversion? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 12:37:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA11253 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA11144; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:37:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05197; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:36:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA18677; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805211936.MAA18677@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-Reply-To: <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> from Josef Grosch at "May 21, 98 08:26:30 am" To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Josef Grosch: [[ ... ]] > > > > All this whining and posturing remind me of kids complaining about the rules > of a game. My kids were big on this; they would start to play Monopoly and > then when things were not going their way they would complain about the > rules. Sorry guys, but here in America, in the closing years of the 20th > century, this is the way things are. You are unhappy about the way things > are? Fine, what are you planing on doing about it? When was the last time > any one of you wrote or called your elected representative. You say he/she is > unresponsive to to you? Fine, elect another one. Thats right, fire the > bozo. In theory they are employees of "We the people". Go out and _WORK_ to > change things. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the > problem. (My past is beginning to show) On the practical side of things, yeah, if you don't vote and write (even email) your elected reps, you have little right to complain. If you want laissez-faire capitalism, it's coming soon to a country near you, wherever you happen to be. Globalizational, internationalization are here. It's a matter of time before things reach some crisis state... but of course then it will be a bit too late. > > The fact is this is not going to end tomorrow. This case is going to drag > on for YEARS. IBM and DOJ slugged it out for 13 years. Say what you will, > and any of you who know me know there is no love in my heart for microsoft > but you have to give them this, they do not back down, they stand their > ground. I don't see this action going anywhere for 10, 15 years; and it's likely that Justice will just give up. > > What is really pissing me off about this entire thread is all of you have > missed the fact this this is a golden opportunity to advance FreeBSD. In case > you have not noticed, FreeBSD is in microsoft's cross-hairs. A friend recently said, ``But Unix is just too difficult for the average person. That's why Microsoft wins.'' Maybe. But a way to get more people to use our flavor is to provide an environment that is as easy to use as M$ or Apple. The capabilities are here. Have a port--one port--that pulled in a GUI desktop and the top dozens apps. Including apps like StarOffice. The ports are already here; or in development. It's a matter of pulling together a desktop environment and choosing what to plug in. Most of us are looking at this through our engineer's eyes and mumbling that ``Hey, we've got a great OS and great programs; free!'' What we're missing is that most computer users want to buy a system with everything pre-install. Turn it on and up pops a login window or desktop; when down, one mouse-click and off the box. There are opportunities here... . > > So, rather then spend all out time theorizing about anti-trust and > Objectivism (or what ever they are calling Ann Ryan's bullshit these days) > lets focus on how we can make the FreeBSD the OS of choice for the ISP and > server market and fuck microsoft & the horse they rode in on. > > A box of any side could be sold, largely preconfigured, for ISP's or anyone who wants to work 800 hours a week to be an ISP. Opportunities here too To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 12:59:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17055 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atipa.com (altrox.atipa.com [208.128.22.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA16971 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail 2057 invoked by uid 1017); 21 May 1998 18:55:41 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:55:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Atipa To: Josef Grosch cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-Reply-To: <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > They are in volation of US anti-trust laws, yes, The justice department is > setting a bad presidence trying to tell microsoft how to write software, > yes. All these things are true, so what were you planing on doing about > this? Make better software? :) [... snip ...] > In theory they are employees of "We the people". Go out and _WORK_ to > change things. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the > problem. (Now my past is beginning to show) Actually, if you are not part of the solution, you are a precipitate. (Sorry for that Chemically inert pun... now _my_ past is beginning to show!) > What is really pissing me off about this entire thread is all of you have > missed the fact this this is a golden opportunity to advance FreeBSD. In case > you have not noticed, FreeBSD is in microsoft's cross-hairs. Well, I got yelled at profusely when I mentioned this topic in -advocacy. But I agree with you wholeheartedly. > So, rather then spend all out time theorizing about anti-trust and > Objectivism (or what ever they are calling Ann Ryan's bullshit these days) > lets focus on how we can make the FreeBSD the OS of choice for the ISP and > server market and fuck microsoft & the horse they rode in on. I agree. I started this thread to let people know that we need to be just as cautious w/ Unlce Sam as we are w/ Uncle Bill, but you are right that the point was lost along the way. Here are my suggestions for advancing FreeBSD, and what I think we need to do to get cut into the MS pie: 1) Provide professional support. -------------------------------- Many companies are very weary of software that does not have on-demand, fully capable support facilities. Although those of us in the community are familiar with the "support system" (emails, web pages, newsgroups, friends, etc.), the whole deal looks very second-rate to companies accustombed to on-site OS experts and 24-hour tech support hotlines. This service would need to be provided by a 3rd party support network. I see this support segment not only as a valuable service to the Project, but a great business opportunity. I tried to register the domain for freebsd-support.com, but it is already taken, and the web site is a disgrace. NetBSD has found its way into some good situations solely on its support. FreeBSD would benefit greatly from such a service. After speaking with several commercial companies, their number one problem with supporting the "Free" OSes was support. They saw a big potential liability for customer support at the application level since the OS level support was not readily available. Professional support would increase the confidence of clients and developers, and offer a good money-making opportunity for those involved. 2) Market Thyself! ------------------ We all complain about how MS sells w/ marketing instead of substance, and are too PROUD to "stoop" to their level. That is a bit harsh, since they have gargantuan financial backing and financial motives, but the essence remains: the market needs a shrink wrapped, advertised, clean-cut product. Walnut Creek has done a good job with the content and delivery, but tuning in the masses is not really their concern. The only way I see to spread the word without dropping millions of dollars is to have a PR team that just produces media-ready info (Press Releases, product comparisons, benchmarks, reviews, etc.). I know this has been discussed, but I think the level of promotion is still relatively low. Being pragmatic and looking at "the Powers that Be", I have decided that marketing is more important than the actual content and technical merit of a product. This is not romantic and perfect, but it is the way people work. They are not logical, but they _are_ predictable. It appears to me that FreeBSD work is about 99.5% technical (kernel updates, ports, packages, features, security, etc.), and about 0.5% "fluff" (documentation, marketing, promoting, graphic designing, etc.). We need more "fluffers". The biggest enemy as far as Press is concerned is Ziff Davis. They are my second most hated company (behind US West), and they are bigger sluts than MS. They totally flaunt their heavy-hitting advertisers and have NO REGARD for the truth. And they have so many trash rag magazines that their sphere of influence in computing is very large. I'll need to think about infiltrating ZD, since coming up w/ big bucks is not an easy option... 3) Fix Threads and Java Support ------------------------------- These are the only technical problems I feel are holding down progress. There are always knick-knacks and do-dads, but those (related) problems are hurting fairly badly. As far as networking, security, stability, hardware support, etc., I feel FreeBSD is about as good as it gets. I think the techincal merits of FreeBSD are many, and we can make a bigger impact immediately just by investing in Problems 1 and 2. But I see the only way to beat MS will be to get commercial developers away from MS binary compatibility. Java is the best way so far in my estimation. These are only my opinions, and please nobody take any of these criticisms personally. There are no personal criticisms whatsoever. And for those who say, "Well, easy for you to say!", let me know where to sign up. I am serious about making things better. Regards, Kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 13:11:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19235 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:11:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from runner.jjsoft.com (jahanur.intur.net [206.97.149.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19206 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:11:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jahan@pc.jaring.my) Received: from pc.jaring.my (klj-19-47.tm.net.my [202.188.19.47]) by runner.jjsoft.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22825; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:10:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jahan@pc.jaring.my) Message-ID: <35655D42.DC105BB9@pc.jaring.my> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 04:10:58 -0700 From: Jahan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: zipped version of ports are worng References: <3564850D.89115DD5@pc.jaring.my> <19980521021409.A11475@mstar.astro.psu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nearly oops I meant 8-{(). Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 12:48:29PM -0700, Jahan wrote: > > > Oh. :0 > > And I know it's my bedtime when I wonder why you stuck $DISPLAY > at the end of your line... > > -- > Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. > http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 13:13:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19629 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19603; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00453; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Gary Kline cc: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 12:36:24 PDT." <199805211936.MAA18677@athena.tera.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:13:45 -0700 Message-ID: <450.895781625@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Maybe. But a way to get more people to use our > flavor is to provide an environment that is as > easy to use as M$ or Apple. The capabilities are > here. Watch this space.. The desktop contest web pages are almost ready and, when they are, I'll launch the contest official with full details on just what sort of contest it is, what it's supposed to achieve, etc etc. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 13:22:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20887 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20833; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:22:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06840; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:21:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA18696; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805212021.NAA18696@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-Reply-To: <450.895781625@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "May 21, 98 01:13:45 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Cc: kline@tera.tera.com, jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd@atipa.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jordan K. Hubbard: > > Maybe. But a way to get more people to use our > > flavor is to provide an environment that is as > > easy to use as M$ or Apple. The capabilities are > > here. > > Watch this space.. The desktop contest web pages are almost ready > and, when they are, I'll launch the contest official with full details > on just what sort of contest it is, what it's supposed to achieve, etc > etc. :) > This sounds like a major win. Any entrepreneurs out there could take this to (say, Dell) and offer fully pre-configured BSD @ $20 PC. Six months of free telephone//email//web support. Plus X, Y, and Z. gary PS: The gotcha isn't capital as much as it is grit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 13:24:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21356 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21267; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00568; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Atipa cc: Josef Grosch , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 12:55:41 MDT." Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:24:15 -0700 Message-ID: <564.895782255@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This service would need to be provided by a 3rd party support > network. I see this support segment not only as a valuable service to the > Project, but a great business opportunity. I tried to register the domain > for freebsd-support.com, but it is already taken, and the web site is a > disgrace. Hmmm. It looks like Mr. Grosch has sort of jumped the gun there. I wish he'd even thought to mention it to me before registering this one. I would recommend in any case that any "blessed" support org live under http://www.freebsd.org/support.html and have a big link from the home page. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 14:03:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27494 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:03:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic32.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27416; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:02:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA27405; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980521140239.A27359@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:02:39 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Atipa , Josef Grosch Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , fpawlak@execpc.com, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, kline@tera.tera.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <19980521082629.B25066@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Atipa on Thu, May 21, 1998 at 12:55:41PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 12:55:41PM -0600, Atipa wrote: > [ DELETED ] > This service would need to be provided by a 3rd party support > network. I see this support segment not only as a valuable service to the > Project, but a great business opportunity. I tried to register the domain > for freebsd-support.com, but it is already taken, and the web site is a > disgrace. > Yes, I registered that domain for FreeBSD. I thought it best to grab it before someone else does and does something rude with it. The web page you see was put up as a test to make sure everything works. Stay tuned for a "new and improved" web page. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 14:07:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28293 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28059 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (zanak-1-10.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.93.10]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id QAA18147; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:06:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02660; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:06:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980521210614.ZM2657@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:06:14 +0000 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?dag-erli=40ifi=2Euio=2Eno_=28Dag-Erling_Coidan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Sm=F8rgrav_=29?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?________=22Re=3A_http=3A=2F=2Fwww=2Emoral-defense=2Eorg=2F?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?home=2Ehtml=22_=28May_21=2C__6=3A12pm=29?= References: <199805201544.IAA09956@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_?=), Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: http://www.moral-defense.org/home.html Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA28073 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 21, 6:12pm, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Subject: Re: http://www.moral-defense.org/home.html > Amancio Hasty writes: > > It is interesting that the Pro Microsoft Web Site is running > > Linux and Apache 8) The only thing missing from the web site > > is the powered by linux or linux logo... > > Not only does the site run on a Linux server, it was designed on a > Mac. > > I wouldn't be surprised to learn the the Committee for the Moral > Defense of Microsoft was, in fact, financed by Microsoft itself. > If this should be true, it should not be a major shocker. Somewhere I have read that M$ in fact had employees act as "disinterested third parties" and write letters to editors of major newspapers defending M$. Forgotten where I read that - some newspaper for sure. No end to the dirty tricks that big money can buy. Frank > -- > Noone else has a .sig like this one. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 14:11:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:11:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29013 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:10:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (zanak-1-10.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.93.10]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id QAA19786; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:10:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02673; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:10:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980521211047.ZM2670@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:10:47 +0000 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?dag-erli=40ifi=2Euio=2Eno_=28Dag-Erling_Coidan?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Sm=F8rgrav_=29?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?________=22Re=3A_Drunk_penguins=22_=28May_21=2C__6=3A31pm?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=29?= References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_?=), "Christopher R. Bowman" Subject: Re: Drunk penguins Cc: "Jan B. Koum " , chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA29023 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 21, 6:31pm, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Subject: Re: Drunk penguins > "Christopher R. Bowman" writes: > > On Wed, 20 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > > Thank god our mascot is copyrighted, patented, whatever: > > > http://www.budice.com/images/penqbot.gif > > I don't think this helps, satire or critical comment is a specific > > catagory of protected fair use. > > It's not satire, it's a Bud commercial. I suspect that these people > have quite simply never heard of Linux (or of UNIX, for that matter) > and couldn't care less. > I don't agree. Not that I'm a big Bud drinker, but that is not a real Bud label on the bottle, at least any that I have ever seen. Frank > -- > Noone else has a .sig like this one. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 14:38:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04984 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:38:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1716.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04786 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA01610; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:34:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:34:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: dandugger cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: www.openbsd.com In-Reply-To: <18351937.5.716@mx1-11.onmedia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 20 May 1998, dandugger wrote: > what's up with www.openbsd.com? did openbsd really hack freebsd? If so, it's pretty brazen of www.openbsd.com to be running FreeBSD! It would seem to be begging to get hack'd themselves... :-) [Or, at least, that is, `telnet openbsd.com' claims they are running FreeBSD, but given the nature of openbsd.com that could be faked...] I really have no idea what the fellow doing this has against OpenBSD. Quickly checking some OpenBSD mail archives, his name didn't show up... [basing "his name" on ``whois openbsd.com'']. [To answer the question, NO. OpenBSD did not hack FreeBSD. OpenBSD is an operating system. Quite experienced individuals did break into the main FreeBSD.ORG computers previously, but, to the best of my knowledge, they were never caught. Obviously, if these individuals were related to OpenBSD it would be quite damaging (to all Free BSDs), and anyone suggesting such better have damn good evidence beyond the state of the FreeBSD-OpenBSD relationship at the time of the break-in.] -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 14:44:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06469 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06336 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:43:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id OAA11416; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:43:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:43:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Frank Pawlak cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , "Christopher R. Bowman" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Drunk penguins In-Reply-To: <980521211047.ZM2670@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA06346 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 May 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: >On May 21, 6:31pm, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: >> It's not satire, it's a Bud commercial. I suspect that these people >> have quite simply never heard of Linux (or of UNIX, for that matter) >> and couldn't care less. >> > >I don't agree. Not that I'm a big Bud drinker, but that is not a real Bud >label on the bottle, at least any that I have ever seen. > >Frank How dare you! :) I spent many minutes on their site looking for this photo and now you say that is NOT a bud commercial? Look at the domain dood. -- Yan > > >> -- >> Noone else has a .sig like this one. >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >>-- End of excerpt from Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 14:55:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09170 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:55:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09097 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 14:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no (2602@gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.40]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA09506; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:43:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by gjallarhorn.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:43:32 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Hunt Cc: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" , Jason , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft. References: <022b01bd8434$cf24c060$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> <19980521130704.02510@demos.su> <19980521123814.B28705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 21 May 1998 23:43:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: Matthew Hunt's message of "Thu, 21 May 1998 12:38:14 -0400" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Hunt writes: > On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 01:07:04PM +0400, Mikhail A. Sokolov wrote: > > Interesting. Anybody ever thought of say, contracting someone so that > > their boxes come with preinstalled FreeBSD or, at least, shipping the CD's? > I've worked on FreeBSD boxes purchased from Apache Digital, > www.apache.com. Not www.apache.org, that's different. :-) Wheeeee. Go to . Select Intel as architecure, FreeBSD as primary OS, and "Fault-Tolerant Server System" as model. Click Select. Read the list. Drool. And the price isn't all that bad, either :) -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 15:02:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10750 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nexus.astro.psu.edu (nexus.astro.psu.edu [128.118.147.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA10642 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:01:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@astro.psu.edu) Received: from mstar.astro.psu.edu by nexus.astro.psu.edu (4.1/Nexus-1.3) id AA13167; Thu, 21 May 98 18:01:02 EDT Received: by mstar.astro.psu.edu (SMI-8.6/Client-1.3) id SAA03528; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:01:00 -0400 Message-Id: <19980521180100.A3519@mstar.astro.psu.edu> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:01:00 -0400 From: Matthew Hunt To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" , Jason , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft. References: <022b01bd8434$cf24c060$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> <19980521130704.02510@demos.su> <19980521123814.B28705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzp7m3fz4e4=2Efsf=40gjallarhorn=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_from_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Thu=2C_May_21=2C_1?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?998_at_11:43:31PM_+0200?= Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 11:43:31PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Wheeeee. Go to . Select > Intel as architecure, FreeBSD as primary OS, and "Fault-Tolerant > Server System" as model. Click Select. Read the list. Drool. Yeah, the machine I spec'd for the job I mentioned made me drool, and in most respects it was the lowest-end machine they would build. :-) -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://mph124.rh.psu.edu/~mph/pgp.key for PGP public key 0x67203349. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 15:07:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12127 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:07:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12043 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:07:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (zanak-1-10.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.93.10]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id RAA01050; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:07:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02782; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:07:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980521220718.ZM2779@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:07:18 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jan B. Koum " "Re: Drunk penguins" (May 21, 2:43pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jan B. Koum " , Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Drunk penguins Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_?= , "Christopher R. Bowman" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA12054 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On May 21, 2:43pm, Jan B. Koum wrote: > Subject: Re: Drunk penguins > On Thu, 21 May 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > >On May 21, 6:31pm, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > >> It's not satire, it's a Bud commercial. I suspect that these people > >> have quite simply never heard of Linux (or of UNIX, for that matter) > >> and couldn't care less. > >> > > > >I don't agree. Not that I'm a big Bud drinker, but that is not a real Bud > >label on the bottle, at least any that I have ever seen. > > > >Frank > > How dare you! :) > I spent many minutes on their site looking for this photo and now > you say that is NOT a bud commercial? Look at the domain dood. > > -- Yan > How dare me indeed. I am wrong, you're right. It is a Bud Ice commercial. May a thousand penguins find relief on my beer glass. ;-) Frank > > > > > >> -- > >> Noone else has a .sig like this one. > >> > >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > >>-- End of excerpt from Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > >-- End of excerpt from Jan B. Koum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 15:45:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19164 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26026; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <007e01bd850a$497c6c20$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Amancio Hasty" Cc: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:46:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And they are not? I can call places like Vircom and get any OS I want. Jason -----Original Message----- From: Amancio Hasty To: Jason Cc: Frank Pawlak ; Jordan K. Hubbard ; Gary Kline ; Atipa ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >Part of the problem with this line of thinking is that PC OEM must >be free to distribute alternative OS without illegal reprecussion >from Microsoft . The other component is that the application >vendors must be convinced to port their applications to an alternative >OS of course they are welcome to become successful in the MS World and >if they should we all know what follows next . > > Cheers, > Amancio > >> >what platform it runs on. That's market control, the buyer has virtually >> no >> >say in what gets implemented. It is either the M$ solution or nothing. >> You >> >either develop to the M$ standard or you don't develop at all. All of this >> >> >> Who says that....if all the app venders and users get sick and tired of >> windows and microsoft then they should abegin developing their apps for >> other platforms and begin promoting it to the public. Its not a hard thing >> to do to make an app run on other OSs. >> >> Jason >> > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 15:47:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19819 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19606 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:46:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27444; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008701bd850a$bfc3f6a0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "jack" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:49:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you must know.....I have NEVER bought a PC with Windows loaded on it. Not sure why...it just works out that way. PCs seem to be cheaper that way and I like cheap.....how many copies on Win95 do I really need....I have 5 computers here and only 2 run anything made by Microsoft. (one 95 and one 98). Jason -----Original Message----- From: jack To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 12:16 AM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >On Wed, 20 May 1998, Jason wrote: > >> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 >> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 > >Hmmm. > >> What monopoly would that be? Microsoft is no more a monopoly than GM is. > >Haven't tried to buy a PC without Win[whatever] preloaded in the >past few years, have you? > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst >jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. > Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. > PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null > Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 15:54:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21125 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:54:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20808 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:53:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29806; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008e01bd850b$b103e980$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Frank Pawlak" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Amancio Hasty" , "Gary Kline" , "Atipa" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:56:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: Frank Pawlak To: Jason ; Frank Pawlak ; Jordan K. Hubbard Cc: Amancio Hasty ; Gary Kline ; Atipa ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 12:57 AM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >Jason, you fail to understand how monopoly power works in the market place. M$ >already dominates the desktop OS environment, and are gaining ground in the >server market. Open source software is presently not well received in the >corporate world. The more M$ dominates the less chance any competitive OS has >of getting accepted much less gain market share. You are clearly missing the >big picture or are very naive and are equating the "cult users" of free >software with the commercial world where the money is made in software. > Monopoly power very simply means that there is one supplier and everyone else >is out or going out of the business. There are no other choices. > >Compared to M$ FreeBSD is hardly a blip on anyone's radar screen, and the more >they dominate the smaller that blip will get until it disappears. > >After reading a few of your posts, I wonder if you are just not making >arguments for arguments sake. > >Frank > I am making arguement for the sake of my opinion. I am not the only one out here who thinks this way Below is an excerpt from the Austrailians Visual Developers Forum. http://www.gui.com.au/avdf -Start- by Mark Trescowthick - AVDF Editor Lawsuits Will this nonsense ever end? Without taking sides, could someone please talk some sense into Sun and MS? The latest developments see MS allegedly planning to remove all Java support from the "default" version of IE5 and the US DoJ pondering whether or not they'll sue MS to stop the release of Windows 98 (see below). That latter thought prompted a letter from 20 or 30 companies (with HP, Intel and Compaq among them) suggesting that this would not be a good idea. Understatement, I'd say. But not really a surprise in some ways... once you allow the legals to run the joint, that's the sort of thing that's going to happen. And Netscape / Sun reckon that MS are the ones stifling development? Let's just hope that those companies also send MS a letter saying that dropping Java is also a bad idea. Although, having had that piece of alleged "info" leak at a developers conference, MS do seem to be backing away rapidly. The idea that a browser could be shipped without a JVM is this day and age seems ludicrous, and looks, frankly, plain petulant. Mind you, a browser which provided the ability to swap JVMs would be a huge step forward - so long as it shipped with a default! I mused in these pages some months ago as to just where Sun and Netscape thought they were taking the industry by wheeling out the lawyers to achieve what their respective products couldn't. There was always the risk that, once it started, a legal fight might take unexpected turns. And, if the DoJ succeed in having Windows 98 delayed (or even stopped) because it includes IE4, then the worst case scenario would suddenly be looking awfully possible. I ask the question again : "Who do you want running the computer industry"? If it's the US DoJ, then you're on a good thing. If it's anyone else (like, for example, consumers, developers, software companies, MS, Sun, Netscape or IBM) then you should be standing up right now and saying so, to anyone who'll listen. Legal maneuverings are not the answer, but it may now be too late. If the DoJ decide to press on, then not much can be done to stop them. I'm the first to admit MS is no saint, but it's one heck of a lot better than the US DoJ. Perhaps once the DoJ have finished on MS, they'll decide that no vendor should be allowed to do an NC as well as be a sponsor of Java. Or that no official standards enforcer for Java should be allowed to develop a JVM. Or that browser vendors may not also sell server products. I can see perfectly reasonable arguments for all three propositions. -end- Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 15:58:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21843 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21765 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:58:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01837; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009901bd850c$65cbd1c0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Mikhail A. Sokolov" Cc: Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft. Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:01:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Now that's an idea.....I just never thought of getting an OS with a PC...Never have and probably never will. No point in it. How many copies of a certain OS do I really need. If I had it on an old machine and replace it with a new one why re-buy the same software? Jason -----Original Message----- From: Mikhail A. Sokolov To: Jason Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 7:43 AM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft. >On Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:18:13PM -0400, Jason wrote: ># ># Now if it is found out that MS is involved in muder and gambling or ># something else ilegal then there is a case....but unless they can find ># something like MS forcing OEMs do something like: not allowing them to ># install something that consumers might want. > >Interesting. Anybody ever thought of say, contracting someone so that >their boxes come with preinstalled FreeBSD or, at least, shipping the CD's? > ># ># Jason > >-- >-mishania > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 16:00:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22182 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:00:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22135 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02689; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00a001bd850c$b548f0c0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Stuart Henderson" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:03:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am willing to bet that if you told a PC seller what you wanted...i.e. partition/software wise....they will get it for you....if not then you are in the wrong place. In the computer selling business "solutions" is the name of the game. He who has the solutions and makes customers happy wins in the end! Jason -----Original Message----- From: Stuart Henderson To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 8:29 AM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >Atipa wrote: >> >> But what makes this a monopoly? We all have the ability to choose >> products, and noone is taking that away. > >it's as if an oil company with a large market share licensed a type of >fuel tank filler that only works with their pumps to all the major car >manufacturers, and only sold fuel to car owners that have one. result: >maybe not quite a monopoly, but not exactly healthy competition... > >> As I stated in other e-mails, we are missing the big picture. We need >> to focus on promoting emerging technologies, instead of stunting >> existing ones. Then we can all be winners. They should be investigating >> MS's poisoning of Java instead of their integrated browser. > >or even just that new computers don't come with a separate partition to >install another OS onto without disrupting the primary one... > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 16:07:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23326; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05724; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00a501bd850d$a5286940$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , Cc: , , , , , , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:10:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan M. Bresler To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk Cc: jbrann@brann.org ; jmb@FreeBSD.ORG ; jkh@time.cdrom.com ; hasty@rah.star-gate.com ; kline@tera.tera.com ; freebsd@atipa.com ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 9:24 AM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >Ben Cohen wrote: > microsoft uses their operating system to dominate the apps > market. i would like to see that practice stopped. > microsoft redefines what is part of the operating system > as desired to gut the profitability of other companies > products. while one can argue that stacker really should > be part of the operating system, i dont believe one can > argue that a web browser could be. web browsers are clearly > apps which may be expanded to provide the GUI for the box. What is the difference between a stacker and a browser in terms of competition? MS makes both....and both are part of the win9x systems....and both have competitors. There is NOTHING in win98 that prevents ANYONE from loading Netscape or any other browers on these systems. I am a beta tester for win98 and that was one of the things we had to try out. They wanted us to try EVER peice of software known to man....or at least what each of us had at the time. > microsoft needs to be split to prevent these two anti-competitive > practices. >jmb I still don't see the real point here.....the only anti competitive practice I see that might be a problem is MS bullying vendors with license agreements not to to things that the consumer wants. No MS or any other developers license should require a vender to load or install only their products. That much is in the best interest of the public but not the rest OS this DOJ mess. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 16:16:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24877 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24765; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:16:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09677; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <00c401bd850e$e3bb9640$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Atipa" , "Josef Grosch" Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , , , , Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:18:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Its about time some of you decided to get to the real point of this thread! Bravo! Jason -----Original Message----- From: Atipa To: Josef Grosch Cc: Jonathan M. Bresler ; Jordan K. Hubbard ; fpawlak@execpc.com ; hasty@rah.star-gate.com ; kline@tera.tera.com ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) > >> They are in volation of US anti-trust laws, yes, The justice department is >> setting a bad presidence trying to tell microsoft how to write software, >> yes. All these things are true, so what were you planing on doing about >> this? > >Make better software? :) > >[... snip ...] >> In theory they are employees of "We the people". Go out and _WORK_ to >> change things. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the >> problem. (Now my past is beginning to show) > >Actually, if you are not part of the solution, you are a precipitate. >(Sorry for that Chemically inert pun... now _my_ past is beginning to >show!) > >> What is really pissing me off about this entire thread is all of you have >> missed the fact this this is a golden opportunity to advance FreeBSD. In case >> you have not noticed, FreeBSD is in microsoft's cross-hairs. > >Well, I got yelled at profusely when I mentioned this topic in -advocacy. >But I agree with you wholeheartedly. > >> So, rather then spend all out time theorizing about anti-trust and >> Objectivism (or what ever they are calling Ann Ryan's bullshit these days) >> lets focus on how we can make the FreeBSD the OS of choice for the ISP and >> server market and fuck microsoft & the horse they rode in on. > >I agree. I started this thread to let people know that we need to be just >as cautious w/ Unlce Sam as we are w/ Uncle Bill, but you are right that >the point was lost along the way. > >Here are my suggestions for advancing FreeBSD, and what I think we need to >do to get cut into the MS pie: > >1) Provide professional support. >-------------------------------- > > Many companies are very weary of software that does not have >on-demand, fully capable support facilities. Although those of us in the >community are familiar with the "support system" (emails, web pages, >newsgroups, friends, etc.), the whole deal looks very second-rate to >companies accustombed to on-site OS experts and 24-hour tech support >hotlines. > > This service would need to be provided by a 3rd party support >network. I see this support segment not only as a valuable service to the >Project, but a great business opportunity. I tried to register the domain >for freebsd-support.com, but it is already taken, and the web site is a >disgrace. > > NetBSD has found its way into some good situations solely on its >support. FreeBSD would benefit greatly from such a service. > > After speaking with several commercial companies, their number one >problem with supporting the "Free" OSes was support. They saw a big >potential liability for customer support at the application level since >the OS level support was not readily available. > > Professional support would increase the confidence of clients and >developers, and offer a good money-making opportunity for those involved. > >2) Market Thyself! >------------------ > We all complain about how MS sells w/ marketing instead of >substance, and are too PROUD to "stoop" to their level. That is a bit >harsh, since they have gargantuan financial backing and financial motives, >but the essence remains: the market needs a shrink wrapped, advertised, >clean-cut product. Walnut Creek has done a good job with the content and >delivery, but tuning in the masses is not really their concern. > The only way I see to spread the word without dropping millions of >dollars is to have a PR team that just produces media-ready info (Press >Releases, product comparisons, benchmarks, reviews, etc.). I know this >has been discussed, but I think the level of promotion is still relatively >low. > Being pragmatic and looking at "the Powers that Be", I have >decided that marketing is more important than the actual content and >technical merit of a product. This is not romantic and perfect, but it is >the way people work. They are not logical, but they _are_ predictable. > It appears to me that FreeBSD work is about 99.5% technical >(kernel updates, ports, packages, features, security, etc.), and about >0.5% "fluff" (documentation, marketing, promoting, graphic designing, >etc.). We need more "fluffers". > The biggest enemy as far as Press is concerned is Ziff Davis. They >are my second most hated company (behind US West), and they are bigger >sluts than MS. They totally flaunt their heavy-hitting advertisers and >have NO REGARD for the truth. And they have so many trash rag magazines >that their sphere of influence in computing is very large. I'll need to >think about infiltrating ZD, since coming up w/ big bucks is not an easy >option... > >3) Fix Threads and Java Support >------------------------------- >These are the only technical problems I feel are holding down progress. >There are always knick-knacks and do-dads, but those (related) problems >are hurting fairly badly. > >As far as networking, security, stability, hardware support, etc., I feel >FreeBSD is about as good as it gets. I think the techincal merits of >FreeBSD are many, and we can make a bigger impact immediately just by >investing in Problems 1 and 2. > >But I see the only way to beat MS will be to get commercial developers >away from MS binary compatibility. Java is the best way so far in my >estimation. > >These are only my opinions, and please nobody take any of these criticisms >personally. There are no personal criticisms whatsoever. And for those who >say, "Well, easy for you to say!", let me know where to sign up. I am >serious about making things better. > >Regards, >Kevin > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 17:04:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:04:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04096 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA00564; Fri, 22 May 1998 09:33:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980522093357.M27201@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:33:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Matthew Hunt , 7e9aedd97b5ec4590edb8281ff12b168 , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mountd problem (?) References: <19980521180454.G27201@freebie.lemis.com> <19980521123102.A28705@flarn.dyn.ml.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980521123102.A28705@flarn.dyn.ml.org>; from Matthew Hunt on Thu, May 21, 1998 at 12:31:02PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 May 1998 at 12:31:02 -0400, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Thu, May 21, 1998 at 06:04:54PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thu, 21 May 1998 at 1:04:08 -0500, 7e9aedd97b5ec4590edb8281ff12b168 wrote: >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> You must hate your parents. > > Hm. > > flarn:~$ echo "Matthew Hunt" | md5 | cut -f 3 > 936e9043e78e5d2d4da946df4d600dc2 > > So... anyone want to try to brute-force his name? :-) > > Sincerely, > 0d2be2948013b41626bb3a43620ecb1c Sure, I thought it must be something like that. I just don't understand why. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 17:04:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04292 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04185 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net ([208.147.150.49]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA09842 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:04:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA06726 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:45:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805212345.SAA06726@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: I have seen the future of computing, and its name is AcuCobol.. In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Wed, 20 May 1998 12:19:09 PDT." <21349.895691949@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:45:05 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > http://www.acucobol.com/Products/ACUCOBOL-85/A85-23WP.html Is this the basis for FreeBSD 4.0? I mean, "...the future of computing..." must mean FreeBSD and its too late to make such a major change to FreeBSD 3.0. Right? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 19:10:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00812 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00719 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 19:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrG-01.aei.ca [206.186.205.51]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15713 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 22:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3564DE7A.3075FC44@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:10:02 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Why installing ports on a computer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was thinking to that: ports are changing every week, if not often. Well, like ports need internet to be usefull, why installing them on the computer? With FTP or Lynx, you can go on FreeBSD.org and get the last ports. In both way, you need internet but in the second way, you do not waste space and dont download old apps. So why installing ports on the computer? Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 21:16:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23343 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:16:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (wumpus.its.uow.edu.au [130.130.68.12]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id OAA19341 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:15:56 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:15:56 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: freebsd vs linux (nfs) (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was pleased to see the ratings that freebsd received on this. Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:41:58 -0500 (CDT) From: tip To: dc-stuff@dis.org Subject: freebsd vs linux (nfs) >from unix review's "performance computing" magazine, june 1998, pages 21-28, comparisons are on nt products vs various flavors of unix. for simplicity's sake, linux, bsdi, and freebsd are only mentioned here for comparison of bsd vs linux: NFS PROTOCOL SUPPORT -------------------- nfs v.2 nfs v.3 webnfs udp tcp udp tcp bsdi x x x x freebsd x x x x x linux x SUPPORT FOR ANCILLARY NFS PROTOCOLS ----------------------------------- RPC PORTMAPPER MOUNT PROTOCOL NETWORK LOCK MGR STATUS Over UDP Over TCP Over UDP Over TCP Over UDP Over TCP UDP TCP v2 v3 v4 v2 v3 v4 v1 v2 v3 v1 v2 v3 v1 v2 v3 v4 v1 v2 v3 v4 v1 v1 bsdi x x x x x x freebsd x x x x x x x x x x x linux x x x x again, i like both freebsd and linux, i'm slightly biased towards freebsd, just because of its superior networking and security over linux. thanx, - tip [ =-=-=-=-=-= preserve wildlife; pickle a squirrel today. =-=-=-=-=-= ] [ *&@$* tip - my evil twin is pit - mailto:tip@stopsmiling.com *&@~$* ] [ *&#%!$* don't trust that person in the mirror with anything *&!%#$* ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 21 21:35:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27331 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:35:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27267; Thu, 21 May 1998 21:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (minbar-2-31.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.135.159]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id XAA25329; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:34:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03628; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:34:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980522043451.ZM3627@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 04:34:51 +0000 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD A Solution For Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Volunteers needed!!! Note Please post all responses to advocacy!!!!! I am proposing an advocacy project to produce a document that will have several uses. First, marketing FreeBSD. The finished product will be aimed at product managers in the commercial software development world with the intent of raising the visability of FreeBSD and presenting reasons to look at FreeBSD as a solid development platform. Second, publication. This document could serve as a kick start bases for magazine articles aimed at business professionals that make decisions as to what gets included as a strategic platform in their IS shops. I would suggest that we take the high road in doing this, and not make it a BSD vs Linux gun fight. We should do it with the idea in mind that any OS other than FreeBSD is a competitor, but sell FreeBSD only on its' own merits. In other words we are a class act. There are any number of ways that we can approach this project. Jordan has made the suggestion that each volunteer produce a document of their own and then we can pick the 4 or 5 best and blend them into the final product. I think this is a good suggestion and a workable idea. However, I would like to propose a counter idea to this, that would more readily leverage the collective knowledge base and reduce the work load of each volunteer in producing a final document. My thinking in this is that some people can write, others write extremely well others have deep technical knowledge of FreeBSD. If we could combine all individual areas of expertise into one common working document we maybe able to reach our goals faster and easier. This could be facilitated using a cut and paste method by a document maintainer - me, I have the Excedren bottle near by ;-) To that end I have below a rough outline of document content to start off this effort, subject to group revision and approval. FreeBSD A Solution For Business Executive Summary a) Why develop or port to an open source operating system b) Advantages of using an open source OS from a competitive perspective c) What makes FreeBSD the open source operating system of choice i) The FreeBSD pedigree ii) The importance of the FreeBSD development and release model iii) Technical qualities of FreeBSD (over all product quality issues) Stability Speed Scalability - solid, steady performance under heavy loads iv) Why FreeBSD is am excellent development platform d) The impact of open sources licensing on commercial development i) Advantages of the Berkeley License e) Future direction of the FreeBSD project f) Where is FreeBSD being used Where do I stand on all of this? No question I very much need help on the technical side of the issues, my UNIX experience is short and technical skills weak. I can do word smithing and contribute ideas, and am willing to commit the time and effort to coordinate the project. I am sure there will be other areas where I can contribute as this get further defined and work progresses. Let me know what you think of this idea and of any revisions that you think necessary. Thanks in advance. Frank Pawlak To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 00:12:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24808 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 00:12:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24773 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 00:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA22878; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:11:51 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:11:50 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: Malartre cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? In-Reply-To: <3564DE7A.3075FC44@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not all FreeBSD machines have access to the internet. Those that do can download the latest etc... but those that don't (including me on some machines) enjoy the ability to get my ports from the cd. On my machines with internet access I find it convenient to have the ports local, I have only needed to get later versions from the internet occasionally and as the ports are very easy to use for a PHD (push here dummy :-) ) like myself it hasn't presented me with any obstacles. However you always have the choice. If you don't wish to have the ports collection on your machine don't install them and only download the skeletons when you wish to install. just my opinion anyway Andrew Perry > > I was thinking to that: ports are changing every week, if not often. > Well, like ports need internet to be usefull, why installing them on the > computer? > With FTP or Lynx, you can go on FreeBSD.org and get the last ports. > In both way, you need internet but in the second way, you do not waste > space and dont download old apps. > > So why installing ports on the computer? > Malartre > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 02:03:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11190 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA11170 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-237.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.237]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id CAA13864 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:03:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:52:45 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd855e$fd2321c0$ed01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: Jason To: Stuart Henderson ; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 4:58 PM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... >I am willing to bet that if you told a PC seller what you wanted...i.e. >partition/software wise....they will get it for you....if not then you are >in the wrong place. In the computer selling business "solutions" is the >name of the game. He who has the solutions and makes customers happy wins >in the end! i was throw out of CompUSA by the assistant sales manager and the guard because i wanted to test my application (for sale in the store) on the computer i wanted to buy (for sale in the store.) what country do you live in? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 02:30:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA15947 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15701 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yco6x-0006eC-00; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:27:35 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:27:36 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Malartre cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? In-Reply-To: <3564DE7A.3075FC44@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I was thinking to that: ports are changing every week, if not often. > Well, like ports need internet to be usefull, why installing them on the > computer? > With FTP or Lynx, you can go on FreeBSD.org and get the last ports. > In both way, you need internet but in the second way, you do not waste > space and dont download old apps. Do ftp.*.freebsd.org support NFS mounting? If they do (or were adjusted so that they did), then when necessary it would presumably be possible to NFS mount the latest set of ports over /usr/ports. Since the installation information is kept in /var/db/pkg or somewhere, it wouldn't then matter if the user tried to remove the port without being NFS mounted. And the user could still mount ports if not NFS mounted in the same way as before (i.e. via ftp as normal or from CD-ROM). ------------- What is the difference between packages and ports, and why doesn't /stand/sysinstall support port installation? (Would it be useful if such and option were added?) Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 02:48:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18451 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:48:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18433 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:47:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA02340; Fri, 22 May 1998 05:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002b01bd8567$3d775b80$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Jack Velte" , Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 05:51:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I live in Michigan...but if someone treated me that way then they don't need my business. There are millions of small computer shops that will make any PC you want the way you want it and will almost always be cheaper then the big stores. CompUSA, Best Buy and others like those are not the only places to get PCs. And against popular opinion Packard Bell is NOT the only computer to get :) Jason -----Original Message----- From: Jack Velte To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 5:25 AM Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jason >To: Stuart Henderson ; >freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG >Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 4:58 PM >Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... > > >>I am willing to bet that if you told a PC seller what you wanted...i.e. >>partition/software wise....they will get it for you....if not then you are >>in the wrong place. In the computer selling business "solutions" is the >>name of the game. He who has the solutions and makes customers happy wins >>in the end! > > >i was throw out of CompUSA by the assistant sales manager and the guard >because >i wanted to test my application (for sale in the store) on the computer i >wanted >to buy (for sale in the store.) > >what country do you live in? > >-jack > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 04:38:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04997 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 04:38:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04965 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 04:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (dialB03.aei.ca [206.123.6.87]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA02292; Fri, 22 May 1998 07:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35656383.3E5CF011@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 07:37:39 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Perry CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Perry wrote: > Not all FreeBSD machines have access to the internet. Those that do can > download the latest etc... but those that don't (including me on some > machines) enjoy the ability to get my ports from the cd. > Well, if you dont have acces to the net, you dont need port! no? Malartre > On my machines with internet access I find it convenient to have the ports > local, I have only needed to get later versions from the internet > occasionally and as the ports are very easy to use for a PHD (push here > dummy :-) ) like myself it hasn't presented me with any obstacles. > > However you always have the choice. If you don't wish to have the ports > collection on your machine don't install them and only download the > skeletons when you wish to install. > > just my opinion anyway > Andrew Perry > > > > > I was thinking to that: ports are changing every week, if not often. > > Well, like ports need internet to be usefull, why installing them on the > > computer? > > With FTP or Lynx, you can go on FreeBSD.org and get the last ports. > > In both way, you need internet but in the second way, you do not waste > > space and dont download old apps. > > > > So why installing ports on the computer? > > Malartre > > -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 04:48:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA06586 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 04:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (andrew@python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA06580 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 04:48:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01776; Fri, 22 May 1998 21:48:39 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:48:39 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: Malartre cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? In-Reply-To: <35656383.3E5CF011@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, if you dont have acces to the net, you dont need port! no? > Actually yes. I usually use ports over packages as it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. There's more to computers than the internet (oh no! sacrilege). :-) It actually resides behind a firewall that I can't get it past at this stage. I practice writing c programs in my lunch hour. I've installed apache for use on our intranet. I've installed other programs that I want to learn about as well. By the way, I'm not putting down your idea I'm just giving my point of view. Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 05:14:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA08762 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 05:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA08665 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 05:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27141; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:10:37 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35656B7B.91723614@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:11:39 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ben Cohen wrote: > > Do ftp.*.freebsd.org support NFS mounting? If they do (or were > adjusted so that they did), then when necessary it would presumably be > possible to NFS mount the latest set of ports over /usr/ports. the ports collection usually builds in /usr/ports/*/*/work/.. probably better to have a port_add command (or even modified pkg_add that can understand .tar.gz of the tree for an individual port, maybe with a sysinstall interface) that either ftp's to ftp.*.freebsd.org or mounts the cdrom, fetches and unpacks the port information to a temp directory and makes. that way, it wouldn't break anything that's already written, wouldn't require such a major reorganisation of ports, would free up about 30mb, and would give a very useful reduction in the time taken to install freebsd - see how long it takes to unpack ports.tar.gz, even mounted async :-) stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 06:27:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA18765 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA18545; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:26:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-252.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.252]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id GAA23866; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:26:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Frank Pawlak" , , , Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:12:55 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8583$55a61680$fc01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD A Solution For Business >Volunteers needed!!! > >Note Please post all responses to advocacy!!!!! >First, marketing FreeBSD. The finished product will be aimed at product >managers in the commercial software development world with the intent of >raising the visability of FreeBSD and presenting reasons to look at FreeBSD as >a solid development platform. if some salesmen in suites take them to lunch, maybe they'll listen. >Second, publication. This document could serve as a kick start bases for >magazine articles aimed at business professionals that make decisions as to >what gets included as a strategic platform in their IS shops. FreeBSD certainly gets better press overseas. >There are any number of ways that we can approach this project. Jordan has >made the suggestion that each volunteer produce a document of their own and >then we can pick the 4 or 5 best and blend them into the final product. I >using a cut and paste method by a document maintainer - me, I have the Excedren >bottle near by ;-) :-) > FreeBSD > > A Solution For Business not. >Executive Summary > > >a) Why develop or port to an open source operating system buying packages is much easier. >b) Advantages of using an open source OS from a competitive perspective which? if you want to roll everything yourself, like Yahoo? >c) What makes FreeBSD the open source operating system of choice > > > i) The FreeBSD pedigree * > > ii) The importance of the FreeBSD development and release model * > > iii) Technical qualities of FreeBSD (over all product quality issues) * > > Stability * > > Speed * > > Scalability - solid, steady performance under heavy loads *** > > iv) Why FreeBSD is am excellent development platform > >d) The impact of open sources licensing on commercial development > > i) Advantages of the Berkeley License > > >e) Future direction of the FreeBSD project > >f) Where is FreeBSD being used this might be first. >Where do I stand on all of this? No question I very much need help on the >technical side of the issues, my UNIX experience is short and technical skills >weak. I can do word smithing and contribute ideas, and am willing to commit >the time and effort to coordinate the project. I am sure there will be other >areas where I can contribute as this get further defined and work progresses. so why do you like FreeBSD? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 06:40:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21653 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA21514; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:39:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-252.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.252]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id GAA26923; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:36:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Jason" Cc: , , , , Subject: Why we should not support Microsoft. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 06:30:46 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8585$d3ae4500$fc01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Jason >>Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 4:58 PM >> >>>I am willing to bet that if you told a PC seller what you wanted...i.e. >>>partition/software wise....they will get it for you....if not then you are >>>in the wrong place. In the computer selling business "solutions" is the >>>name of the game. He who has the solutions and makes customers happy wins >>>in the end! you want to do this for real? it probably violates my non-compete agreement with WC. i was the marketing bunny that this list thought was a droid. i put most of the companies money into marketing FreeBSD. now it's their best product. but you still have 0.01 market share. in offices, MS has 100%. is there a version in frys? duh, no. duh? OS/2 is in there. who thinks OS/2 has any market share in the office market? Apple? BSDI? FreeBSD, Inc needs a business plan and mission statement. Who are the shareholders? Jordan Hubbard, Justin Gibbs, David Greenman. Jordan is president. Justin is a microsofty. what are their salaries? are the finances of freebsd, inc public? lightpath, lptha, ceo went from $40 to $150 their marketing ipo. pricing: $39.95 - very limited support 139.95 - some support and free stuff. 789.95 - 24 hr, international support that's very good. /year. on site with expenses paid. 100M x 3 = 30,000,00 x 3 90000 $50M $50M/ and 100M is low -- MS is in chinese offices too. there are about 5B people on the world, and probably half of them will want a computer. *everything* else is free. except tshirts and books. and fancy ap's. 3% office market share is an easy goal. (Apple.) the other company with 0% market share that once owned Unix is Corel, michael copeland, Canada. their market cap went from nothing to by some values (other companies write offs) huge and back almost to nothing. (?50M) I propose devising some metrics for measuring contribution and then applying them to the maillists and source code and then making the creators and maintainers shareholders equal to their contribution, with some float from other people that want to give them their money. 50/50. the more metrics the better. then fractal average them. See, i think FreeBSD is vastly better than Windows or Macintosh, but it sure doesn't have market muscle behind it. FreeBSD has the pure heritage of Unix. but !weird people and almost no secretaries. I think chuckie should get a sister and she should be the mascot. Sandy K. what about a DPO for $5M, then IPO for $30M? $30M buys some lawyers and advertising. worth $400M, at least. the DPO is also 50/50 -- equity measured in dollars and other contribution. as long as one ap doesn't run on your system, you'll have 0% of the office market. so either the shim into the OS has to be PD or the whole OS. the UI and OS should be separate. FreeBSD is a vastly superior OS. the UI is ok, too, but the ap's don't run. i do not think windows 95 UI is as good as X. nationalizing it would force Bill Gates to restate earnings, almost no matter which way he cuts the company in two. short msft. or sell calls. >>i was throw out of CompUSA by the assistant sales manager and the guard >>because >>i wanted to test my application (for sale in the store) on the computer i >>wanted >>to buy (for sale in the store.) this was albequere, but who cares? the real manager was unfriendly also. only the security guard was nice. i wouldn't buy compusa stock. whatever. >I live in Michigan...but if someone treated me that way then they don't need >my business. There are millions of small computer shops that will make any >PC you want the way you want it and will almost always be cheaper then the >big stores. CompUSA, Best Buy and others like those are not the only >places to get PCs. And against popular opinion Packard Bell is NOT the only >computer to get :) this isn't what business thinks. -jack if you don't have rice, what good are megabits? resume upon request. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 06:59:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24730 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:59:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24724 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 06:59:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0ycsIt-0004QS-00; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:56:11 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:56:12 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Stuart Henderson cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? In-Reply-To: <35656B7B.91723614@internationalschool.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Do ftp.*.freebsd.org support NFS mounting? If they do (or were > > adjusted so that they did), then when necessary it would presumably be > > possible to NFS mount the latest set of ports over /usr/ports. > > the ports collection usually builds in /usr/ports/*/*/work/.. Oh, I didn't think of that.... > probably > better to have a port_add command (or even modified pkg_add that can > understand .tar.gz of the tree for an individual port, maybe with a > sysinstall interface) that either ftp's to ftp.*.freebsd.org or mounts > the cdrom, fetches and unpacks the port information to a temp directory > and makes. that way, it wouldn't break anything that's already written, > wouldn't require such a major reorganisation of ports, would free up > about 30mb, and would give a very useful reduction in the time taken to > install freebsd - see how long it takes to unpack ports.tar.gz, even > mounted async :-) Yes, that sounds better. Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 09:34:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19208 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 09:34:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA19197 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11710; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:25:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek Reply-To: Tim Vanderhoek To: Stuart Henderson cc: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Malartre Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? In-Reply-To: <35656B7B.91723614@internationalschool.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Added Malartre back to the cc: since I hate it when people begin mucking with the Cc: header] On Fri, 22 May 1998, Stuart Henderson wrote: > the ports collection usually builds in /usr/ports/*/*/work/.. probably > better to have a port_add command (or even modified pkg_add that can > understand .tar.gz of the tree for an individual port, maybe with a > sysinstall interface) that either ftp's to ftp.*.freebsd.org or mounts Bad idea. In order to guarantee a correct port build, you must have a wholly consisten ports tree. Fetching an individual port will often work, but if we start to pretend supporting that, we're just asking for trouble. Whatever is wrong with using CVSup to keep one's ports tree up-to-date? -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 09:45:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21877 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 09:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0ycuwL-0005Ex-00; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:45:05 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:45:07 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Stuart Henderson cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 May 1998, Ben Cohen wrote: > > > Do ftp.*.freebsd.org support NFS mounting? If they do (or were > > > adjusted so that they did), then when necessary it would presumably be > > > possible to NFS mount the latest set of ports over /usr/ports. > > > > the ports collection usually builds in /usr/ports/*/*/work/.. > > Oh, I didn't think of that.... But would mount_union solve that? If I understand it correctly, then the build could be local, the rest of the ports stuff on ftp.*.freebsd.org via mount_nfs, and everything else would be OK. If the installation was using CD instead of NFS, mount_union could be done in the same way. Depending on exactly how mount_union works (I've never used it) it could even be used over an installed ports tree to collect new ports (though perhaps not updated ones?) I don't know what the advantages and disadvantages of mount_union are, but maybe this would solve the above problem and software wouldn't have to be rewritten (much). Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 10:35:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03688 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:35:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03654; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:35:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23009; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:35:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA20206; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805221734.KAA20206@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business In-Reply-To: <980522043451.ZM3627@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "May 22, 98 04:34:51 am" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Frank Pawlak: > Volunteers needed!!! > > First, marketing FreeBSD. The finished product will be aimed at product > managers in the commercial software development world with the intent of > raising the visability of FreeBSD and presenting reasons to look at FreeBSD as > a solid development platform. You've been an economist for decades, Frank. Your savvy would fit in well here. > > Second, publication. This document could serve as a kick start bases for > magazine articles aimed at business professionals that make decisions as to > what gets included as a strategic platform in their IS shops. > > I would suggest that we take the high road in doing this, and not make it a BSD > vs Linux gun fight. We should do it with the idea in mind that any OS other > than FreeBSD is a competitor, but sell FreeBSD only on its' own merits. In > other words we are a class act. Agree. Not only (not)FBSD against Linux, but similar not opposed to MS or Apple or the other BSD. A major plus on FBSD's side is that, given our compat library suites we work with virtually all the other flavors of Unix: Linux, SCO, BSDi. And plugging in a Win* emu-port (e.g. WINE) even Windows apps should run. (( It occured to me yesterday that most non-business consumers would ask, "Can this pre-configured FreeBSD run my kiddie's CD educational app for Windows??" Prob'ly not. But this may be a strength for corporations who buy workstation computers to enhance their people-power. The productivity of their workforce. Given that a pre-configured system could be accomplished, it would have all the applications necessary to help workers get their jobs done. It would have exceptional networking. It would not be laden with games, toys, diversions. )) > > There are any number of ways that we can approach this project. Jordan has > made the suggestion that each volunteer produce a document of their own and > then we can pick the 4 or 5 best and blend them into the final product. I > think this is a good suggestion and a workable idea. However, I would like to > propose a counter idea to this, that would more readily leverage the collective > knowledge base and reduce the work load of each volunteer in producing a final > document. My thinking in this is that some people can write, others write > extremely well others have deep technical knowledge of FreeBSD. If we could > combine all individual areas of expertise into one common working document we > maybe able to reach our goals faster and easier. This could be facilitated > using a cut and paste method by a document maintainer - me, I have the Excedren > bottle near by ;-) > > To that end I have below a rough outline of document content to start off this > effort, subject to group revision and approval. > > [[ ... ]] Why don't you (or you and the `list') come up with, say, a dozen document topics for people to ponder? This may be the basis for a genuine enterprise. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 10:46:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05328 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:46:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05280; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:45:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA25880; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:27:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jack Velte cc: Jason , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, davidg@root.com, gibbs@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. In-Reply-To: <01bd8585$d3ae4500$fc01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > I think chuckie should get a sister and she should be the mascot. Sandy K. Man, I was just about to hit [Del] when I got here! Yes! YES! YES! I *like* it! Maybe we can even get her to star in a Disney movie. Now that would be marketing. ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 11:08:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09089 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from idiom.com (idiom.com [140.174.82.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09027; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billy@idiom.com) Received: from localhost (billy@localhost) by idiom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03084; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:07:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Billy Thompson To: Frank Pawlak cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business In-Reply-To: <980522043451.ZM3627@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think what is absolutely necessary to this would be a graph comparison between Win NT and FreeBSD. Start with a lite load then keep pushing it up until both systems are crawling. This would demostrate not only how reliable FreeBSD is on the SAME hardware, but also how much better it is (since I'm sure there will be obviously better performance from FreeBSD). Then plaster this on as many websites as you can and include it in the business solutions document. You know how much pointy haired bosses love graphs and charts, and this should show them in simple terms that FreeBSD has better preformance and is more reliable. -billy To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 11:20:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12432 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12001 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:19:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09166; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:15:43 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3565C10A.DF047499@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:16:42 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Vanderhoek CC: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Malartre Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > Whatever is wrong with using CVSup to keep one's ports tree > up-to-date? I wasn't thinking so much of keeping things up to date, rather a way around having /usr/ports extracted to disk except when needed. Unpacking ports.tgz is the slowest part of the installation for most people and it eats a lot of space.. The only (minor) problem I have using cvsup to track the ports tree is that dependencies are installed based on the version number and not the port name - in many cases this is a good thing, but it can result in spending a long time fetching and making new versions of perl5,etc. that often aren't really needed. Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 11:54:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18980 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:54:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18747; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:53:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805221853.LAA18747@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Why we should support Microsoft... In-Reply-To: <00a001bd850c$b548f0c0$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> from Jason at "May 21, 98 07:03:40 pm" To: kib@poboxes.com Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Cc: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason wrote: > I am willing to bet that if you told a PC seller what you wanted...i.e. > partition/software wise....they will get it for you....if not then you are > in the wrong place. In the computer selling business "solutions" is the > name of the game. He who has the solutions and makes customers happy wins > in the end! > > Jason there was a write up this month in one of the trade rags about that. none of the major PC retailers would sell a machine with windows. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 12:10:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22808 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22689; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25105; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:09:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA21001; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805221909.MAA21001@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business In-Reply-To: from Billy Thompson at "May 22, 98 11:07:38 am" To: billy@idiom.com (Billy Thompson) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Billy Thompson: > > I think what is absolutely necessary to this would be a graph comparison > between Win NT and FreeBSD. Start with a lite load then keep pushing it > up until both systems are crawling. This would demostrate not only how > reliable FreeBSD is on the SAME hardware, but also how much better it is > (since I'm sure there will be obviously better performance from FreeBSD). > > Then plaster this on as many websites as you can and include it in the > business solutions document. You know how much pointy haired bosses love > graphs and charts, and this should show them in simple terms that FreeBSD > has better preformance and is more reliable. > Another issue that may be important to the more intelligent managers is that NT has little network security; FreeBSD can have security... And if this (firewall) can be pre-configured, that wins. NT______ 0.5% security FreeBSD______ 98.5% security If your e-business depended upon having a secure system, BSD provides solutions. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 12:15:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23879 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:15:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23861; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:15:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gibbs@plutotech.com) Received: from narnia.plutotech.com (narnia.plutotech.com [206.168.67.130]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23749; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:11:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805221911.NAA23749@pluto.plutotech.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: "Jack Velte" cc: "Jason" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com, davidg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 1998 06:30:46 PDT." <01bd8585$d3ae4500$fc01aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:07:06 -0600 From: "Justin T. Gibbs" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Who are the shareholders? Jordan Hubbard, Justin Gibbs, David >Greenman. Jordan is president. Justin is a microsofty. Please get your facts straight. I have no stake in FreeBSD Inc. other than a wish to see it further the FreeBSD cause, nor was I a factor in it's inception. I suppose you could brand me a "microsofty" for working for Microsoft at one point in time and even though this is something I couldn't care less about keeping secret it's not your place to broadcast who I have or haven't worked for on these lists. If anyone wants to know where I really work, all they have to do is look at my email address. -- Justin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 12:21:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25501 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25458; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kib@poboxes.com) Received: from kib ([209.153.178.194]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26377; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003601bd85b7$4ed2f740$023aa8c0@kib.kib.net> Reply-To: "Jason" From: "Jason" To: "Jack Velte" Cc: , , , , Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:24:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >FreeBSD, Inc needs a business plan and mission statement. > Exactly. And don't stop there! >this isn't what business thinks. Not around here they don't....at least not all of them. I just go to the ones who give me What I Want, When I Want, How I Want. Nothing more nothing less. There are some good companies out there...you just have to look beyond your local mall :) Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 12:32:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:32:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28127; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:32:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805221932.MAA28127@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: SMP, Intel PR440FX, cpu monitoring, etc In-Reply-To: <199805221158.EAA08924@antipodes.cdrom.com> from Mike Smith at "May 22, 98 04:58:19 am" To: mike@smith.net.au (Mike Smith) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith wrote: > > Peter Dufault once stated: > > > > =I'm planning on getting one also. I'm looking forward to my first > > =chance to wipe out NT instead of W95. > > > > Wiped out or not, it will still count as yet another NT computer in > > the world. Try to make sure they do NOT give you NT license. They'll > > probably refuse to give you a discount for that, though... > > The licence was allocated when the machine was manufactured. Trying to > do this is stupid, and will just irritate the vendor. someone try to deny MS has monopoly power? someone try to claim that you can buy a PC from a major manufacturer without paying a "tax" to MS? jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 12:49:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02703 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02641; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:49:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05824; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Jack Velte , Jason , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, davidg@root.com, gibbs@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 1998 13:27:45 EDT." Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:45:21 -0700 Message-ID: <5820.895866321@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think you guys are both on serious drugs and I want to know where you got them and how much they cost. > On Fri, 22 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > > > I think chuckie should get a sister and she should be the mascot. Sandy K. > > Man, I was just about to hit [Del] when I got here! > > Yes! YES! YES! > > I *like* it! > > Maybe we can even get her to star in a Disney movie. Now that > would be marketing. ;-) > > > -- > Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! > tIM...HOEk > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 13:42:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12788 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (passer.osg.gov.bc.ca [142.32.110.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12477; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:40:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cschuber@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by passer.osg.gov.bc.ca (8.8.8/8.6.10) id NAA15662; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805222039.NAA15662@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Received: from localhost(127.0.0.1), claiming to be "passer.osg.gov.bc.ca" via SMTP by localhost, id smtpdaaowwa; Fri May 22 13:39:34 1998 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0gamma 1/27/96 Reply-to: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group X-Sender: cschuber To: Billy Thompson cc: Frank Pawlak , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 1998 11:07:38 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:38:43 -0700 From: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think what is absolutely necessary to this would be a graph comparison > between Win NT and FreeBSD. Start with a lite load then keep pushing it > up until both systems are crawling. This would demostrate not only how > reliable FreeBSD is on the SAME hardware, but also how much better it is > (since I'm sure there will be obviously better performance from FreeBSD). You'd probably want to throw Linux into the mix too... > > Then plaster this on as many websites as you can and include it in the > business solutions document. You know how much pointy haired bosses love > graphs and charts, and this should show them in simple terms that FreeBSD > has better preformance and is more reliable. Regards, Phone: (250)387-8437 Cy Schubert Fax: (250)387-5766 Open Systems Group Internet: cschuber@uumail.gov.bc.ca ITSD Cy.Schubert@gems8.gov.bc.ca Government of BC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 15:00:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27949 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27731; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:59:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yczqX-0006EO-00; Fri, 22 May 1998 22:59:25 +0100 Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 22:59:29 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group cc: Billy Thompson , Frank Pawlak , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business In-Reply-To: <199805222039.NAA15662@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think what is absolutely necessary to this would be a graph comparison > > between Win NT and FreeBSD. Start with a lite load then keep pushing it > > up until both systems are crawling. This would demostrate not only how > > reliable FreeBSD is on the SAME hardware, but also how much better it is > > (since I'm sure there will be obviously better performance from FreeBSD). > > You'd probably want to throw Linux into the mix too... Yes---add basically as many (but not too many) graphs as are relevant and advantageous. e.g.: Graphs of: Price/performance for different OSs (Can this be quantified? Or just prices.) Relative OS speeds under different server loads Security (& can give specific examples e.g. teardrop) Average server uptime till crash or reboot necessary (Minimum) Hardware Requirements (?) OSs: SCO FreeBSD BSDi ? Windows NT (Novell Netware) Linux Windows 95/98 ? --- Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 15:41:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06103 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:41:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06057; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrD-15.aei.ca [206.186.204.165]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15324; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3565FEF1.926A1A00@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:40:49 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group CC: Billy Thompson , Frank Pawlak , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business References: <199805222039.NAA15662@passer.osg.gov.bc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To much cross posting... I receive 3 time a letter if not 4. go on chat@freebsd.org... Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 15:45:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:45:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (freefall.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07108 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA318 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 00:44:19 +0200 Message-ID: <3565FFC8.1357A794@pipeline.ch> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:44:24 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linus finally got it (filesystem issue) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just FYI (to everyone who was involved in the huge Newsgroup thing some weeks ago. Terry - do you remember?): I brought the OMDU vs. UMDU issue up on the Qmail mailing list earlier this week (with big hints to FreeBSD) and finally Linus got involved and he had to admit that EXT2FS is broken. In case you want to see the whole thing go to http://www.ornl.gov/its/ archives/mailing-lists/qmail/1998/05/maillist.html and scroll down to 'Large installation using NT clients', read this thread and everything down that has to do with 'filesystem reliability', 'async metadata', 'ext2fs', 'how incompatibility destroys mail' or 'kernel patch'. It's worth a look, Linus makes himself a clown. On Wed, 20 May 1998, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Wed, 20 May 1998, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > > Adding something like "cached_open()" etc is _exactly_ the wrong thing to > > > do, because that makes the default programs that don't care get the slow > > > behaviour. > > > > Not necessary, can you spell soft-updates or DOW? It's almost as fast > > as async if not faster sometimes (and there are things like SGI's XFS). > > I'd love to have an ordered filesystem. > > THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE! The issue is that the fsync() is _always_ safe. > Even if the filesystem itself doesn't need it, there's nothing wrong with > doing the fsync(). And it can help, and _will_ help on ext2. And for all I > know, it might help on other systems too. > > And it's just five lines of code - and it's not ugly code at that, it's > perfectly straightforward code that works on everything from FFS to NFS to > XFS to Ext2fs etc etc etc. --> later... On Wed, 20 May 1998, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Wed, 20 May 1998, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > > > > > If Dan had added: > > > > > > (3.5) do a fdirsync() (five lines of code) > > > > > > then he could have added: > > > > > > This works with FFS. It works with NFS. It works with ext2. > > > > > > In short, what I'm arguing for is to add a trivial code sequence that will > > > make everybody happy. > > > > Not quite because all the other folks beside Linux have to pay a not- > > so-small performace penalty. If you consider a usual mailspool directory > > with thousands of files and lots of simultanious incoming/outgoing and > > deliver processes running, it's a quite heavy burden for the box. > > Actually, as all the others according to you do the directory operations > synchronously, then the fsync() on the directory should be a no-op for > them, and the only overhead is due to three extra system calls. > > But yes, make it #ifdef __linux__ if this actually shows up on any > benchmarks. It might be good to have that even if it _doesn't_ show up on > any benchmarks, because it is an extra hint to the reader ("oh, Linux does > asynch directory writes, that's why it's there"). So sure, use the ifdef. > > > Someone out there who applies the patch and can give us some numbers > > (before/after)? > > This will actually suck on Linux-2.0, because nobody has ever actually > _used_ the feature, even though it's been there forever. The Linux 2.0 > version of fsync() on directories will actually fsync the whole device > that the directory is on (so it does the right thing, it's just fairly > slow about it ;). > > But that's ok. It's due to an oversight, and is fixed in my tree (the only > reason it is fixed is that I actually went back and looked as part of this > discussion). And _that_ is not a qmail problem, that's my problem. [...] > > > Linux is the OS for _everybody_. Yes, the clowns can play too. I very > > > explicitly _want_ the clowns who don't do "serious" programming to chose > > > Linux too - some of the clowning around is what gets you programs like > > > Quake etc. > > > > Well, I don't think that Quake was programmed by a clown. Clown's are > > would-be's and me-too guys. > > In this context "clown" is anybody who didn't strictly care about the > total integrity of his data. > > And yes, I'm personally a clown too when I do most programming. I've got > my serious projects, but I don't think I've actually ever used "fsync()" > in any user-space application I've written. And that's ok - it just > re-inforces my feeling that for _most_ things you don't actually want to > force the synchronization. So from personal experience I then judge that > the few cases where you do care you can add the extra fsync().. > > Linus --> later... On Wed, 20 May 1998, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Wed, 20 May 1998, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > > This will actually suck on Linux-2.0, because nobody has ever actually > > > _used_ the feature, even though it's been there forever. The Linux 2.0 > > > version of fsync() on directories will actually fsync the whole device > > > that the directory is on (so it does the right thing, it's just fairly > > > slow about it ;). > > > > Ouch... that hurts. You mean we have to wait for 2.2 to get reliability > > and performace? (or switch to FFS if we need it)? > > I don't know how big an issue this really will be. The "fix" is actually a > two-liner, and works in 2.0.x too, but I don't think I'll make another > 2.0.x release just for this. > > If you have your mail partition separate from most other work that is > going on on the machine, it probably doesn't make all that much of a > difference. There isn't going to be huge amounts of unsynch'ed data > anyway, exactly because all the actual mail files have to be fsync'ed > after being written. > > If it does make a difference, I can send people the two-liner patch to the > kernel to fix it up to do what it should have done anyway. Have fun! -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 17:10:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23156 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (freefall.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23138 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:10:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA154 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 02:09:45 +0200 Message-ID: <356613CE.14DAE847@pipeline.ch> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 02:09:50 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD mailing lists with high latency Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm now since Aug '96 on various freebsd-* mailing list and I see the latency between sending the mail and getting it back via the list is longer every day. In case of my last posting it took 1 hr and 20 min to get back. Is this related to the box the list is runnig on or is it simply an overloaded sendmail. Then it might be worth a thought to switch to qmail (it's really some hundred times faster than sendmail for big lists). -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 17:22:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25788 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25765; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:22:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id RAA00956; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:19:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Jason" Cc: , Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:08:56 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85de$fa4b1360$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>FreeBSD, Inc needs a business plan and mission statement. >> > >Exactly. And don't stop there! > > > >>this isn't what business thinks. > >Not around here they don't....at least not all of them. I just go to the >ones who give me What I Want, When I Want, How I Want. Nothing more >nothing less. There are some good companies out there...you just have to >look beyond your local mall :) your business or ``business''? secretaries do not use FreeBSD to type letters, and won't until they can run MS ap's. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 17:46:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29936 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:46:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29885 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 17:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA23548; Fri, 22 May 1998 20:39:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 20:39:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Stuart Henderson cc: Tim Vanderhoek , bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Malartre Subject: Re: Why installing ports on a computer? In-Reply-To: <3565C10A.DF047499@internationalschool.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 May 1998, Stuart Henderson wrote: > I wasn't thinking so much of keeping things up to date, rather a way > around having /usr/ports extracted to disk except when needed. Unpacking > ports.tgz is the slowest part of the installation for most people and it > eats a lot of space.. If it really is too large, maybe it is time to break off the ja-, ko-, etc. lang-specific ports into a separate installation packet. It seems to me, though, that installation is a one-time thing and the amount of time it takes to unpack ports.tgz doesn't really figure when you view it that way... > The only (minor) problem I have using cvsup to track the ports tree is > that dependencies are installed based on the version number and not the > port name - in many cases this is a good thing, but it can result in > spending a long time fetching and making new versions of perl5,etc. that > often aren't really needed. Don't expect this to get fixed anytime soon. It would require significant manpower to say what things really are needed, and what old versions will suffice. We have nowhere near the manpower resources to handle the increase in support and debugging that would be generated, IMO. You're going to have that problem regardless of how you track the ports tree. It is not specific to using CVSup. -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 18:33:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08450 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08426; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id SAA18671; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:33:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Cc: Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:25:20 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85e9$a6d9aec0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BD85AF.6A8AE360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BD85AF.6A8AE360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i run financial ap's that just are unobtainium on FreeBSD, because you = guys are stupid^h^h^h^hpoor. the ap is free and i run windows because of it, = to get the free continuous data stream. =20 when a recompile on FreeBSD creates the ap, then the other OS isn't monopolistic. =20 where is Barbie dress designer for FreeBSD? =20 my computer crashes every couple of hours. the virtual windowing = doesn't work right half the time. lots of ap's don't work right, especially = MS's. lots=20 of processes block. =20 =20 i usually edit with emacs, but not in the mail package. you have to = reboot to install ms's ap's. a pre-installed version package works 100% = better.=20 i would never buy fix-it-your-self software for a business that wasn't=20 dominated by geeks.=20 =20 -jack =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BD85AF.6A8AE360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
i run financial ap's that just are = unobtainium=20 on FreeBSD, because you guys
are stupid^h^h^h^hpoor.  the ap = is free and=20 i run windows because of it, to get the free
continuous data stream.
 
when a recompile on FreeBSD creates = the ap, then=20 the other OS isn't
monopolistic.
 
where is Barbie dress designer for = FreeBSD?
 
my computer crashes every couple of hours.  the = virtual=20 windowing doesn't
work right half the time.  lots of ap's don't = work right,=20 especially MS's.  lots 
of processes block. 
 
i usually edit with emacs, but = not in the=20 mail package.  you have to reboot
to install ms's ap's.  a pre-installed version = package=20 works 100% better. 
i would never buy fix-it-your-self software for a = business=20 that wasn't 
dominated by geeks. 
 
-jack
 
------=_NextPart_000_00A3_01BD85AF.6A8AE360-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 18:43:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09509; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA13809; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:47:19 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199805230147.LAA13809@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <01bd85e9$a6d9aec0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> from Jack Velte at "May 22, 98 06:25:20 pm" To: jackv@earthling.net (Jack Velte) Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 11:47:19 +1000 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jack Velte wrote: > where is Barbie dress designer for FreeBSD? I simply _must_ know the answer to this one! I've been up all night worrying about just that. ;-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 18:43:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09734 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09705 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:43:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id SAA25076; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:43:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Tim Vanderhoek" Cc: Subject: Sandy K Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:29:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85ea$3887b060$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Fri, 22 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > >> unfortunately, i feel that chuckie as little satan is an >> unfortunate mascot for christian secretaries. the tech's think >> it's all a funny game, but in the ``real world'' people have >> shorter insight. > >I think sometimes the annecdotal evidence suggesting that Chuck >scares people is a little over-rated. i was the marketing director for FreeBSD for as long as it existed until 2 years ago. i lobbied and put chuckie on the cover of everything, negotiated royalties. only in asia is chuckie not viewed as a symbol of satan. i took off my tshirt to go to church. >I asked some resident Christians (namely myself and friends :) >and we decided he was a kinda cute and friendly demon daemon. >"He's got a smile on his face." yeah, her smile is better. >I think his sister has real potential, however. :) I would be >much happier to hang her up in my room. Let's face reality --- >after the legal world, the computer world is probably the next >largest male locker room. Bring in Sandy K.! you met sandy? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 18:44:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09864 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (lee@host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09766 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA01095; Fri, 22 May 1998 21:43:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19980522214343.49008@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 21:43:43 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, dag-erli@ifi.uio.no Subject: YAUKO? :) (was: Re: "option DIAGNOSTIC" broken) Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <199805212342.QAA00693@mordred.cs.ucla.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpogwqxgbx=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Fri=2C_May_22=2C_1998_a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t_09=3A20=3A50PM_+0200?= X-OS: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE (soon to be 3.0-CURRENT) X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:20:50PM +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: [moved to -chat for my own good] > Sir Mordred writes: > > It doesn't look like it made the list, but nfsmount got bloated > > again - I tuned NFS_MUIDHASHSIZ down to 31 from 63. > > YAUKO (Yet Another Undocumented Kernel Option) I wonder if we'll have WAUKO (What, Another Undocumented Kernel Option?) and DAUT (Damn, Another Undocumented Thingy) next...:) (hint: I've been an Animaniacs fan since 1993 :) -- Lee C. -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet #watertower) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | lcremean@tidalwave.net FreeBSD/Linux/Unix hacker...Win95 and M$ evil! (go see www.freebsd.org) My home page: http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | finger me for geek code To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 18:52:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10966 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:52:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10861 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (algae19.verinet.com [199.45.181.115]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id TAA12404; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:51:37 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09147; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:52:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:52:09 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199805230152.TAA09147@const.> To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: Enough already! (Re: Why we should support Microsoft...) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <26954.895770070@time.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > NT is just plain NOT READY YET, a fact which most admins who've > attempted to seriously deploy it in the field are well aware of, and > by pushing it into places where it's not appropriate to push it yet, > M$ is doing an excellent job of shooting their feet off. > [snip] As a rule I avoid these threads, however, I witnessed something that I simply must share. With your invocation of 'most admins', this seems as good a place as any. I attended the spring OAUG (Oracle Applications User Group) conference is San Diego earlier this week. This is a bi-annual gathering of 8000+ OAUG members and several hundred vendors. For a few days we dominate the convention center and every significant hotel in San Diego :) As a financial application developer I attend this approximately once a year. On Tuesday, I attended a session intended to convey the latest news on Oracle Apps v11 deployment (Apps is short for Oracle Applications; a large suite of business software.) Near the latter part of this session the presenter was asked if Oracle had published any benchmark results on v11, and specifically if there had been any benchmarks done to compare NT performance to that of the many UNIX platforms Oracle supports. The speaker knew of no such benchmark data from Oracle and hesitated in sharing her own experiences as an applications consultant. I guess she realized she had no particular stake in the matter and decided to share her beliefs anyhow. She stated that for her own purposes, production systems were deployed on UNIX and that for a given machine, UNIX will always perform faster serving the applications suite. At this, a large percentage of the room of maybe 1800 people began a loud and sustained applause. Mind you, these are system administrators, applications developers and consultants who, in most cases, care not a wit what platform the underlying database happens to be running on. They have learned through their own individual experience what gets the job done and they know it is not NT. The presenter was taken off guard by this reaction. She jokingly asked the crowd if we had applauded because of her courage in sharing this or because we agreed with her. I'm proud to say I was one of a handful who answered 'both.' :) The fact is that outside of Microsoft, the world knows damn well NT doesn't cut it. The IT professionals in that room are quick to warm up to whatever system will provide the reliability and efficiency they need to run a business. You see, in the sort of environments where Oracle Apps is deployed, you let that system crash and you get a call from a vice president. You get that call with any sort of frequency and you walk. A crash is something that gets analyzed and explained, not accepted. In these environments, IT people have comparatively little loyalty to specific vendors or platforms; they can't afford it. They purchase big, strong database hardware from a multitude of vendors including HP, Digital, IBM and Sun. Despite this diverse market the one common thread for most of us is UNIX. In my shop, NT is a toy not to be called upon for anything more significant than a small modem pool or a workstation that crashes less than Windows 95. We don't have the time, budget, or motivation to perform the back-flips necessary to make NT perform like UNIX. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 18:57:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11688 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:57:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11633; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:56:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id SAA01451; Fri, 22 May 1998 18:53:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Jason" , "Jack Velte" Cc: , Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:41:03 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85eb$d8d52ce0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>FreeBSD, Inc needs a business plan and mission statement. >>> the mission statement might be to "provide perfect software at the lowest possible price while making stakeholders rich." remember, FreeBSD is free over the net. Chris Bura as sales manager. Jordan as CEO. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 19:15:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14164 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:15:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA08803; Sat, 23 May 1998 02:15:40 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA08063; Sat, 23 May 1998 04:15:34 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980523041534.53692@follo.net> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 04:15:34 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: IBS / Andre Oppermann , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linus finally got it (filesystem issue) References: <3565FFC8.1357A794@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <3565FFC8.1357A794@pipeline.ch>; from IBS / Andre Oppermann on Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:44:24AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:44:24AM +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Just FYI (to everyone who was involved in the huge Newsgroup thing some > weeks ago. Terry - do you remember?): > > I brought the OMDU vs. UMDU issue up on the Qmail mailing list earlier > this week (with big hints to FreeBSD) and finally Linus got involved > and he had to admit that EXT2FS is broken. > > In case you want to see the whole thing go to http://www.ornl.gov/its/ > archives/mailing-lists/qmail/1998/05/maillist.html and scroll down > to 'Large installation using NT clients', read this thread and > everything down that has to do with 'filesystem reliability', 'async > metadata', 'ext2fs', 'how incompatibility destroys mail' or 'kernel > patch'. It's worth a look, Linus makes himself a clown. What's interesting is that he still doesn't make it easy to write truly correct code (ie, you have to special-case for Linux). rename() is broken - it is not guaranteed to leave either of the files on the disk. The result: To get an atomic update of a file "object", you have to do something like this: 1. Write a backup copy of your new data - "object.newdata-extra" 2. fsync("object.newdata-extra") 3. (if you don't have an fsync that guarantee correct metadata for the object, you must sync() here - ie, for Linux until Linus releases his patches) 4. Write your new data - "object.newdata" 5. fsync("object.newdata") 6. (repeat point 3) 7. rename("object.newdata", "object") 8. sync() 9. create file "object.is-updated" 10. sync(); 11. unlink("object.newdata-extra"); 12. sync(). 13. unlink("object.is-updated"); 14. sync(); On a reboot, you have to handle the following cases: 1. Only "object" exists, or "object" and "object.newdata" exists, or "object.is-updated" exists. 1.1 unlink "object.newdata" 1.2 unlink "object.newdata-extra"; 1.3 sync() 1.4 unlink "object.is-updated" 1.5 sync() 1.6 you're done 2. "object", "object.newdata-extra", and "object.newdata" exists 2.1 copy "object.newdata-extra" to "object.newdata" 2.2 fsync("object.newdata") 2.3 (repeat point 3) 2.4 rename("object.newdata", "object") 2.5 sync() 2.6 create("object.is-updated") 2.7 sync() 2.8 unlink("object.newdata-extra") 2.9 sync(); 2.10 unlink("object.is-updated") 2.11 sync(); 2.12 you're done. I _think_ that's correct. I'm not certain. I went through three iterations to get at something I feel pseudo-confident about. However, the case with ordered metadata updates is this simple (and is, if I've understood POSIX correctly, how it require it to be): 1. Create "object.newdata" 2. fsync "object.newdata" 3. rename "object.newdata, "object" On reboot: 1. "object.newdata" doesn't exist 1.1 You're done. 2. "object.newdata" does exist 2.1 unlink "object.newdata" 2.2. you're done. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 19:24:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15318 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15288; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:24:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id TAA20474; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:24:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Jack Velte" Cc: , Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:18:39 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85f1$1995c460$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Chris Bura as sales manager. Jordan as CEO. good management is the hardest for an enterprise. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 19:34:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16489 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:34:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16470 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id TAA26967 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:34:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: Re: Sandy K Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:22:18 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85f1$9c1b76a0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >i was the marketing director for FreeBSD for as long as it existed >until 2 years ago. i lobbied and put chuckie on the cover of >everything, negotiated royalties. we sent some 3M mail pieces one year. FreeBSD was always on the cover. spend thousands on press releases, too. i felt i got negative support from the FreeBSD community. unix wizards are pretty illitist. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 19:34:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16532 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:34:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16492; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:34:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id TAA26950; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:34:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "John Birrell" Cc: , Subject: Re: your mail Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:19:26 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85f1$3557c900$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Jack Velte wrote: >> where is Barbie dress designer for FreeBSD? > >I simply _must_ know the answer to this one! I've been up all night >worrying about just that. ;-) only when MS's virtual monopoly on the OS is gone. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 19:54:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19584 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:54:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19576 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id TAA09569 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 19:54:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: Re: Linus finally got it (filesystem issue) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:49:03 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd85f5$585b44a0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >However, the case with ordered metadata updates is this simple (and >is, if I've understood POSIX correctly, how it require it to be): > >1. Create "object.newdata" >2. fsync "object.newdata" >3. rename "object.newdata, "object" > >On reboot: >1. "object.newdata" doesn't exist >1.1 You're done. >2. "object.newdata" does exist >2.1 unlink "object.newdata" >2.2. you're done. 1.1 object.newdata exists 1.2 unlink object.newdata. or 1.1 (void) unlink object.newdata -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 20:02:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20108 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 20:02:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20096 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 20:02:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA05396; Sat, 23 May 1998 12:32:05 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980523123204.P339@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:32:04 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: IBS / Andre Oppermann , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing lists with high latency References: <356613CE.14DAE847@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <356613CE.14DAE847@pipeline.ch>; from IBS / Andre Oppermann on Sat, May 23, 1998 at 02:09:50AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 23 May 1998 at 2:09:50 +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > I'm now since Aug '96 on various freebsd-* mailing list and I see the > latency between sending the mail and getting it back via the list > is longer every day. In case of my last posting it took 1 hr and 20 min > to get back. > > Is this related to the box the list is runnig on or is it simply > an overloaded sendmail. Then it might be worth a thought to switch > to qmail (it's really some hundred times faster than sendmail for > big lists). jmb will probably get back to you with more details, but briefly: hub sends the messages to a number of different relays rather than directly to each recipient. Some of these relays can be slow. To know where the delay is in your case, look at the headers. For example, yesterday I got a couple of duplicate messages sent to two different mailing lists. It appears that the relay host had gone down in between, and as a result the two copies appeared something like 10 hours apart. The headers showed that they left hub a few seconds apart. I don't know qmail, but I find it hard to believe that it is really "several hundred times" faster. It's possible that it looks that way due to different delivery strategies (try to deliver to all recipients at the same time), but I would have my doubts about how effective this is with 800 messages being relayed at the same time, as is currently the case at hub. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 20:31:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23085 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 20:31:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23033; Fri, 22 May 1998 20:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with SMTP id NAA26934; Sat, 23 May 1998 13:20:19 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:20:18 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Jack Velte cc: Jason , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. In-Reply-To: <01bd85de$fa4b1360$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: [snip] > >Not around here they don't....at least not all of them. I just go to the > >ones who give me What I Want, When I Want, How I Want. Nothing more > >nothing less. There are some good companies out there...you just have to > >look beyond your local mall :) > > > your business or ``business''? secretaries do not use FreeBSD to type > letters, and won't until they can run MS ap's. > > -jack Or applications the equivalent or better than MS app's... Is there a list anywhere available that shows all the commercial software (that we know of) that is available and/or compatible for FreeBSD? That would be a big benefit when showing business managers - they could easily see that FreeBSD provides a cost-effective solution that meets their commercial needs. Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick - public key available on request. Nicholas Brawn - Computer Science Undergraduate, University of Wollongong. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 22:16:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02697 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 22:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02690 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 22:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0.Beta7/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id HAA26408 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 23 May 1998 07:15:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id HAA25557 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 23 May 1998 07:12:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980523071229.A25554@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 07:12:29 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing lists with high latency Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <356613CE.14DAE847@pipeline.ch> <19980523123204.P339@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <19980523123204.P339@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:32:04PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4311 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Greg Lehey: > I don't know qmail, but I find it hard to believe that it is really > "several hundred times" faster. It's possible that it looks that way > due to different delivery strategies (try to deliver to all recipients Qmail would kill hub very fast, considering that it sends a mail per recipient and doesn't try to group deliveries. It would also make us lose the traffic cut we enjoy with national/regional relays. When one mail is sent to the list, one copy goes for all *.fr recipients, one copy goes for all *.de recipients and so forth. That's bandwidth and delay reduction for you and where Qmail sucks big time IMO. Qmail is faster but sends N times as much data as sendmail. Bad bad bad. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 22:58:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06713 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 22:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06707; Fri, 22 May 1998 22:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA23765; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:28:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980523152811.D317@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:28:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci if_tl.c if_tlreg.h References: <199805221212.FAA09041@antipodes.cdrom.com> <199805222031.PAA02427@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805222031.PAA02427@dyson.iquest.net>; from John S. Dyson on Fri, May 22, 1998 at 03:31:19PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) On Fri, 22 May 1998 at 15:31:19 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > Mike Smith said: >>> >>> However, FreeBSD, in this, is acting just the same as the linux crowd is >>> and to be quite frank, IMHO it's just plain silliness. >> >> Bruce != FreeBSD >> > (Not speaking for -core, but this is IMO.) > > I want to chime in and agree with that, but also make sure that > people know that each -core member normally represents only themselves. > When I go on my ranting sessions about a subject that shall remain > unstated, but well known, that doesn't mean that -core agrees with > me. > > The only way that "-core" forms an opinion is by consensus, or > by someone who is delegated to express opinions for "-core." > The "-core" team is kind of like a legislative body, where each > person has their own opinions, however strong, when a collective > decision is made, the "-core" team comes together and expresses > that decision officially. > > There is great value in the diversity in opinion that FreeBSD core > members express. The advantage that we have, is that we do have > a stable state where we do eventually know that we have to work > together and do move forward, without splitting into splinter > teams. > > All the above isn't to say that -core members don't have valuable > opinions indivdually, but -core is part of a mechanism that we > use to balance FreeBSD into a real and viable project. Well stated. I'm tending to think of the FreeBSD project as an anarchy that works the way it should. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 23:50:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA09796 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 23:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09780; Fri, 22 May 1998 23:50:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-32-248.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.32.248]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id XAA06901; Fri, 22 May 1998 23:50:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: "Greg Lehey" , Cc: "FreeBSD Chat" Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci if_tl.c if_tlreg.h Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:40:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8615$ba14c340$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>There is great value in the diversity in opinion that FreeBSD core >> members express. The advantage that we have, is that we do have >> a stable state where we do eventually know that we have to work >> together and do move forward, without splitting into splinter >> teams. >> >> All the above isn't to say that -core members don't have valuable >> opinions indivdually, but -core is part of a mechanism that we >> use to balance FreeBSD into a real and viable project. > >Well stated. I'm tending to think of the FreeBSD project as an >anarchy that works the way it should. the anarchy works beautifully for technical production. but it fails when it comes to marketing and serious business structure and revenue. -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 22 23:57:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10213 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 23:57:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10207; Fri, 22 May 1998 23:57:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00296; Sat, 23 May 1998 01:54:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805230654.BAA00296@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/pci if_tl.c if_tlreg.h In-Reply-To: <01bd8615$ba14c340$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> from Jack Velte at "May 22, 98 11:40:51 pm" To: jackv@earthling.net (Jack Velte) Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:54:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jack Velte said: > >>There is great value in the diversity in opinion that FreeBSD core > >> members express. The advantage that we have, is that we do have > >> a stable state where we do eventually know that we have to work > >> together and do move forward, without splitting into splinter > >> teams. > >> > >> All the above isn't to say that -core members don't have valuable > >> opinions indivdually, but -core is part of a mechanism that we > >> use to balance FreeBSD into a real and viable project. > > > >Well stated. I'm tending to think of the FreeBSD project as an > >anarchy that works the way it should. > > > the anarchy works beautifully for technical production. but it fails > when it comes to marketing and serious business structure and > revenue. > There is *NO* question that we need help in that area. I do what I can do well, and try to stay out of the way of those who are good at what they do. For example, my time is best spent working on kernel internals and not userland stuff, not X windows, not compilers or not marketing/sales... If JKH and crew need more help with marketing, and there are those who have the ability to help with it, I suppose that such help would not be rejected. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 01:43:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA21717 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 01:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA21690 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 01:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA10102; Sat, 23 May 1998 01:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805230842.BAA10102@implode.root.com> To: "Jack Velte" cc: "Tim Vanderhoek" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sandy K In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 1998 18:29:25 PDT." <01bd85ea$3887b060$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 01:42:08 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>> unfortunately, i feel that chuckie as little satan is an >>> unfortunate mascot for christian secretaries. the tech's think >>> it's all a funny game, but in the ``real world'' people have >>> shorter insight. >> >>I think sometimes the annecdotal evidence suggesting that Chuck >>scares people is a little over-rated. > >i was the marketing director for FreeBSD for as long as it existed >until 2 years ago. This is something you want to admit? The first three years of FreeBSD were the Dark Years when it comes to FreeBSD promotion. I think more promotion has been done in the last 1.5 years than had been done in the four previous years combined. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 02:50:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00320 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 02:50:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00315; Sat, 23 May 1998 02:50:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from eliot.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-29-159.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.159]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id CAA05509; Sat, 23 May 1998 02:50:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jack Velte" To: Cc: Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:15:16 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd861a$892336e0$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org notfreebsd, inc would be a perfect communist company. are there any arithmetic computers that also have neural net hardware? -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 03:33:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA04808 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 03:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA04786; Sat, 23 May 1998 03:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19767; Sat, 23 May 1998 10:30:10 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA10072; Sat, 23 May 1998 12:30:03 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980523123003.22392@follo.net> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:30:03 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , Jack Velte Cc: Jason , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why we should not support Microsoft. References: <01bd85de$fa4b1360$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Sat, May 23, 1998 at 01:20:18PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 01:20:18PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > On Fri, 22 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > > your business or ``business''? secretaries do not use FreeBSD to type > > letters, and won't until they can run MS ap's. > > Or applications the equivalent or better than MS app's... > > Is there a list anywhere available that shows all the commercial software > (that we know of) that is available and/or compatible for FreeBSD? That > would be a big benefit when showing business managers - they could easily > see that FreeBSD provides a cost-effective solution that meets their > commercial needs. http://www.freebsd.org/commercial/software.html is supposed to, but it isn't as complete as we'd like. Feel free to submit updates. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 05:42:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20066 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from micro.internexus.net (root@internexus.net [206.152.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA20051 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 05:42:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cliff@cliffsworld.com) Received: from mother (ppp57.internexus.net [206.152.14.249]) by micro.internexus.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA22929 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 07:42:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980523084309.00901d70@mail.internexus.net> X-Sender: compatriot@mail.internexus.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:43:09 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: cliff ainsworth III Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-chat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 06:56:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 06:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hwcn.org (ac199@james.hwcn.org [199.212.94.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA28128 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 06:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hoek@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (ac199@localhost) by hwcn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21729; Sat, 23 May 1998 09:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 09:50:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Jack Velte cc: Tim Vanderhoek , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sandy K In-Reply-To: <01bd85ea$3887b060$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > only in asia is chuckie not viewed as a symbol of satan. i took > off my tshirt to go to church. Well, when you call him "Chuckie" he sure sounds evil! :-) > >I think his sister has real potential, however. :) I would be > >much happier to hang her up in my room. Let's face reality --- > >after the legal world, the computer world is probably the next > >largest male locker room. Bring in Sandy K.! > > you met sandy? No. Does she need a small make-over first? ;-) -- Outnumbered? Maybe. Outspoken? Never! tIM...HOEk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 08:00:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25589 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 08:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp7248.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.216]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25579 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 08:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00307; Sat, 23 May 1998 10:58:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 10:58:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Jack Velte , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sandy K In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 23 May 1998, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > you met sandy? > > No. Does she need a small make-over first? ;-) Just for the record, you never told me she was a real person! -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 10:09:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21303 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (freefall.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21288 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 10:09:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA309; Sat, 23 May 1998 19:08:12 +0200 Message-ID: <35670285.B6B73368@pipeline.ch> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:08:21 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing lists with high latency References: <356613CE.14DAE847@pipeline.ch> <19980523123204.P339@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sat, 23 May 1998 at 2:09:50 +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > I'm now since Aug '96 on various freebsd-* mailing list and I see the > > latency between sending the mail and getting it back via the list > > is longer every day. In case of my last posting it took 1 hr and 20 min > > to get back. > > > > Is this related to the box the list is runnig on or is it simply > > an overloaded sendmail. Then it might be worth a thought to switch > > to qmail (it's really some hundred times faster than sendmail for > > big lists). > > jmb will probably get back to you with more details, but briefly: > > hub sends the messages to a number of different relays rather than > directly to each recipient. Some of these relays can be slow. To I get my mails directly from hub.FREEBSD.org. If I interpret the header correctly then this happens: 1. sendmail on hub.freebsd.org receives the mail from the sender MTA 2. then it goes to majordomo on hub 3. majordomo expands to the list 4. majordomo sends the stuff to bulkmailer 5. bulkmailer sorts the recipients 6. bulkmailer injects all that stuff into sendmail for delivery 7. finally sendmail delivers the messages to the recipent MX host > know where the delay is in your case, look at the headers. For The problem is the outgoing queue of sendmail (it rested there for 1hr and 15min). > example, yesterday I got a couple of duplicate messages sent to two > different mailing lists. It appears that the relay host had gone down > in between, and as a result the two copies appeared something like 10 > hours apart. The headers showed that they left hub a few seconds > apart. I get it directly from hub. > I don't know qmail, but I find it hard to believe that it is really > "several hundred times" faster. It's possible that it looks that way It is really much faster than sendmail. Sendmail has big problems with huge queues. > due to different delivery strategies (try to deliver to all recipients > at the same time), but I would have my doubts about how effective this > is with 800 messages being relayed at the same time, as is currently > the case at hub. Qmail, with concurrency limit set to 60, delivers those 800 messages in a little bit over 2 minutes (10 sec av. per connection) running on a Pentium-100 with 16MB. You can even put up concurreny up to 150 with a little bit more RAM. I've even heard stories about delivering to over 60k remote addresses in 1.5 hours using stock qmail 1.01 on one P5 with BSD/OS with T1 connectivity. The qmail mailing list has something about 800 subscribers and I get back my mail via the list in under 80 seconds. Sendmail has big problems if some MX for lots of messages in it's queue are unreachable. Timestamp: It's currently 19:08 local time (+0200) -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 10:09:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21328 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 10:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (freefall.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21294 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 10:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA308; Sat, 23 May 1998 19:08:15 +0200 Message-ID: <35670288.CA74291C@pipeline.ch> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:08:24 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ollivier Robert CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing lists with high latency References: <356613CE.14DAE847@pipeline.ch> <19980523123204.P339@freebie.lemis.com> <19980523071229.A25554@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Greg Lehey: > > I don't know qmail, but I find it hard to believe that it is really > > "several hundred times" faster. It's possible that it looks that way > > due to different delivery strategies (try to deliver to all recipients > > Qmail would kill hub very fast, considering that it sends a mail per > recipient and doesn't try to group deliveries. It would also make us lose > the traffic cut we enjoy with national/regional relays. No, it would not kill hub. Grouping doesn't give much performance in this case since less than 5% (IMO) of the recipcients have the same MX. > When one mail is sent to the list, one copy goes for all *.fr recipients, > one copy goes for all *.de recipients and so forth. That's bandwidth and > delay reduction for you and where Qmail sucks big time IMO. You are still in the old UUCP times with your 'one copy to all *.fr recipients'. I don't think that all *.fr subscribers have the same MX. You can only do better with sendmail if you send, lets say, 100 messages to the same MX. > Qmail is faster but sends N times as much data as sendmail. Bad bad bad. Nope. Timestamp: It's currently 19:08 local time (+0200) -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 12:19:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08460 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic11.pm06.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.75]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08438 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 12:18:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA23075; Sat, 23 May 1998 12:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980523121846.C22591@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:18:46 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Tim Vanderhoek , Jack Velte Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sandy K Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <01bd85ea$3887b060$f820aace@eliot.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Sat, May 23, 1998 at 09:50:42AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 09:50:42AM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Fri, 22 May 1998, Jack Velte wrote: > > > only in asia is chuckie not viewed as a symbol of satan. i took > > off my tshirt to go to church. > Really? I thought that most places have a "No shirt, No shoes, No service" policy. My synagogue certainly does. ;-) For the humor impaired that was a joke. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 17:56:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00428 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:56:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sabre.goldsword.com (sabre.goldsword.com [199.170.202.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00387; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jfarmer@sabre.goldsword.com) Received: (from jfarmer@localhost) by sabre.goldsword.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05828; Sat, 23 May 1998 19:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:43:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "John T. Farmer" Message-Id: <199805232343.TAA05828@sabre.goldsword.com> To: billy@idiom.com, fpawlak@execpc.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD A Solution For Business Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG, jfarmer@goldsword.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 22 May 1998 11:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Billy Thompson said: >I think what is absolutely necessary to this would be a graph comparison >between Win NT and FreeBSD. Start with a lite load then keep pushing it >up until both systems are crawling. This would demostrate not only how >reliable FreeBSD is on the SAME hardware, but also how much better it is >(since I'm sure there will be obviously better performance from FreeBSD). > >Then plaster this on as many websites as you can and include it in the >business solutions document. You know how much pointy haired bosses love >graphs and charts, and this should show them in simple terms that FreeBSD >has better preformance and is more reliable. > While I would like to see these numbers & graphs (ie, I think it's a good thing to do), Let's not for a minute think that they will contribute to changing upper managements minds. To paraphrase a quote from my younger days in the industry: "Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft..." The simple truth is that shops that would be swayed by such arguements are already running or considering running Solaris, Idrix, HPUX, Aix, etc. That is, shops that are already willing to consider a non-Microsoft solution. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John T. Farmer Proprietor, GoldSword Systems jfarmer@goldsword.com Public Internet Access in East Tennessee Office: (423)691-6498 for info, e-mail to info@goldsword.com Network Design, Internet Services & Servers, Consulting To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 19:31:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14669 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 19:31:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14659; Sat, 23 May 1998 19:30:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805240230.TAA14659@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing lists with high latency In-Reply-To: <35670285.B6B73368@pipeline.ch> from IBS / Andre Oppermann at "May 23, 98 07:08:21 pm" To: andre@pipeline.ch (IBS / Andre Oppermann) Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 19:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org you all got a head start on me in this discussion. ;) IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > On Sat, 23 May 1998 at 2:09:50 +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > > > I'm now since Aug '96 on various freebsd-* mailing list and I see the > > > latency between sending the mail and getting it back via the list > > > is longer every day. In case of my last posting it took 1 hr and 20 min > > > to get back. > > > > > > Is this related to the box the list is runnig on or is it simply > > > an overloaded sendmail. Then it might be worth a thought to switch > > > to qmail (it's really some hundred times faster than sendmail for > > > big lists). > > > > jmb will probably get back to you with more details, but briefly: > > > > hub sends the messages to a number of different relays rather than > > directly to each recipient. Some of these relays can be slow. To > > I get my mails directly from hub.FREEBSD.org. that's correct, we dont have a mail-relay for .ch. any volunteers? for other top level domains we have a number of relays....edu and com are excellent examples. > > If I interpret the header correctly then this happens: > > 1. sendmail on hub.freebsd.org receives the mail from the sender MTA > 2. then it goes to majordomo on hub > 3. majordomo expands to the list > 4. majordomo sends the stuff to bulkmailer > 5. bulkmailer sorts the recipients > 6. bulkmailer injects all that stuff into sendmail for delivery > 7. finally sendmail delivers the messages to the recipent MX host > > > know where the delay is in your case, look at the headers. For > > The problem is the outgoing queue of sendmail (it rested there for > 1hr and 15min). depends upon the day and the traffic that we experience as well as our connectivity to your site. recently we have had a number of bad days with lots of mail stalling on hub.....other sites being off the 'net unable to receive the mail. at times we had upward of 16,000 messages in the queues. part of this is my fault for allowing people as much as 5 days before bouncing their mail. > > > example, yesterday I got a couple of duplicate messages sent to two > > different mailing lists. It appears that the relay host had gone down > > in between, and as a result the two copies appeared something like 10 > > hours apart. The headers showed that they left hub a few seconds > > apart. > > I get it directly from hub. > > > I don't know qmail, but I find it hard to believe that it is really > > "several hundred times" faster. It's possible that it looks that way > > It is really much faster than sendmail. Sendmail has big problems with > huge queues. > > > due to different delivery strategies (try to deliver to all recipients > > at the same time), but I would have my doubts about how effective this > > is with 800 messages being relayed at the same time, as is currently > > the case at hub. > > Qmail, with concurrency limit set to 60, delivers those 800 messages > in a little bit over 2 minutes (10 sec av. per connection) running > on a Pentium-100 with 16MB. You can even put up concurreny up to 150 > with a little bit more RAM. I've even heard stories about delivering > to over 60k remote addresses in 1.5 hours using stock qmail 1.01 on > one P5 with BSD/OS with T1 connectivity. if i remember rob kolstad's paper correctly, sendmail will process around 250,000 messages per hour, if the receiver will accept the mail...that is a big if for us. > > The qmail mailing list has something about 800 subscribers and I get > back my mail via the list in under 80 seconds. > > Sendmail has big problems if some MX for lots of messages in it's > queue are unreachable. sendmail's .hoststat cache addresses this issue. and may be the crux of your problem. if we tried to reach you and failed, for any reason, we will not try again for at least 30 minutes. without message-id, i dont want to grub thru the logs looking for this. if we move away from sendmail we will move to vmailer from wietse venema, the author of tcp wrappers. you can read about his mailer at http://wzv.win.tue.nl/vmailer/. its not that i have anything against qmail. wietse is someone whose code i am more comfortable with, thats all. so why dont you send me some headers? jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 23 20:35:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:35:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-2-2.stratos.net [207.86.132.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27327 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) From: drifter@stratos.net Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id UAA21870; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980523200556.A21727@stratos.net> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 20:05:56 -0400 To: IBS / Andre Oppermann , Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD mailing lists with high latency References: <356613CE.14DAE847@pipeline.ch> <19980523123204.P339@freebie.lemis.com> <19980523071229.A25554@keltia.freenix.fr> <35670288.CA74291C@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35670288.CA74291C@pipeline.ch>; from IBS / Andre Oppermann on Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:08:24PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are you the marketing director for Qmail, Inc.? I spent a good amount of money and am spending a good amount of time with that ORA "$endm@i!" book. You, sir, are a threat to my investment and very dangerous :) You must be stopped. On Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:08:24PM +0200, IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Ollivier Robert wrote: > > > > According to Greg Lehey: > > > I don't know qmail, but I find it hard to believe that it is really > > > "several hundred times" faster. It's possible that it looks that way > > > due to different delivery strategies (try to deliver to all recipients > > > > Qmail would kill hub very fast, considering that it sends a mail per > > recipient and doesn't try to group deliveries. It would also make us lose > > the traffic cut we enjoy with national/regional relays. > > No, it would not kill hub. > > Grouping doesn't give much performance in this case since less than 5% > (IMO) of the recipcients have the same MX. > > You are still in the old UUCP times with your 'one copy to all *.fr > recipients'. I don't think that all *.fr subscribers have the same MX. > You can only do better with sendmail if you send, lets say, 100 messages > to the same MX. -- drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send) "Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe- struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message