From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 00:40:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02833 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02825 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08983; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:40:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:40:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199806140740.AAA08983@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization In-Reply-To: <19980614020737.A4548.kithrup.freebsd.chat@stratos.net> References: <19980613211430.51924@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200 Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <19980614020737.A4548.kithrup.freebsd.chat@stratos.net> you write: > Not all science fiction is trashy literature, but I think >Anatoly has a point. It seems to me that much of SciFi (or SF, or >whatever the hell you wanna call it) falls under one of several themes. > 1) the "sensawunda" Eivind was talking about. Nothing wrong > with that, but nothing I can get really passionate about either. > 2) cliche "woe-is-mankind-with-all-this-technology" plotlines. > 3) in the year 2345, when there are no wars, no greed, no > disease, and everybody recycles. I think you missed a heck of a lot. SF (for "speculative fiction," aka fantasy & science fiction & horror and some other genres of fiction) is my preferred genre. And, in fact, bloody nearly the *only* genre, except for technical books. (I've read, in the past 10 years, five mystery novels, and two contemporary fiction novels.) Over the past couple of years, I've found that what really draws me, mostly, is characterization -- introducing, and then developing, characters in interesting ways. The other big draw, for me, is "stories with a point." (One of my favourite novellas is "Enemy Mine," which could have, with a minor exception, been about any two warring human enemies. And one of the five best books of *any* genre that I've ever read is Terry Pratchett's _Small Gods_ -- for what it says about us, and our history, and our beliefs and ethics.) In the past 36 hours, I have started, and finished, reading two books. They were _Nameless Mage_, and _Final Diagnosis_. (I forget who wrote NM, but FD is by James White, and is a Sector General novel, if that means anything to you.) NM is a book about a young woman, who has her society destroyed by invaders, is stolen from said society, and has to make her place in a new society, in which she is virtually ostracized. Along the way, she has to decide who and what she is. FD is about a human who is inexplicably ill, and the finest doctors in the galaxy try to figure out what is wrong with him. NM is the author's first published book, and it shows -- the plot is somewhat trite, the ending somewhat predictable, and the writing sometimes clumsy. FD is written by an author who has been publishing for decades, and who has managed to come up with a different plot, despite dozens of stories about the same place. FD is a character-driven story; NM is a "sensawunda" story, almost a travelogue. Guess which one I preferred? I recently read _Heaven's Shore_, by David Brin. It is a story that spans galaxies, and deals with events across billions of years. It is set in an old and vast society. And yet it falls into the "sensawunda" category. This is why I find myself reading more fantasy than science fiction recently, I realized a few years ago. Mind you, lots of fantasy has the same problem, but good characterization does seem to be far more common. To get this back to something even *remotely* on topic... good science fiction should have good characters, as well as a "sensawunda," just as a good operating system needs good user support, as well as nifty kernel code. My recommendations for good F/SF books are fairly easy to find in rec.arts.sf.written archives. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 03:39:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA20619 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:39:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA20587 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id MAA22512; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:30:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09343; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:20:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980614122021.B7784@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:20:21 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: David Kelly , "Peter D. Pawelek" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? References: <199806140002.TAA05719@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806140002.TAA05719@nospam.hiwaay.net>; from David Kelly on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 07:02:01PM -0500 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 07:02:01PM -0500, David Kelly wrote: > "Peter D. Pawelek" writes: > > > > In fact, it's just grown by one...me. :) > > > > I've just jumped ship from Linux (Slackware user for 3 years) to FreeBSD > > since I fear that the Linux 'community' is starting to balkanize (ie. > > RedHat's largely divisive strategy of 'market' domination and > > de-standardization) and will likely degenerate into a muddled anarchy > > within a few years. I've also grown tired of the core of Linux users who > > evangelize the gospel according to GNU. > > Very well put. Describes my feelings about 3 years ago when I jumped off > Linux when it crashed and trashed its filesystems the 3rd time in one > week. FreeBSD filesystems may be slower, but losing data is even slower. The filesystem isn't slower. If you remove many directories, the linux machine (as I know it) starts syncing like hell after some time and this hurts the overall performance. perform a bonnie benchmark and you'll see, that we are probably better in filesystem throughput. If you have to remove many files, you are free to turn on async for this operation (mount -u -o async /xyz) and after that back to normal operation mode. With softupdates enabled in -current we fly away ... -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 03:43:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21122 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:43:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21109 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.0/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id MAA11780 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:43:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id MAA06226 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:38:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980614123855.A6223@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:38:55 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: usenix Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <21739.897731245@time.cdrom.com> <11080.897800754@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.3i In-Reply-To: <11080.897800754@coconut.itojun.org>; from Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:05:54PM +0900 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4374 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I take a plane at 4h50pm (European time) to New Orleans, see you all there ! -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #60: Fri May 15 21:04:22 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 03:58:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22659 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:58:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22601; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:57:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28629; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith , Julian Elischer , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: usenix In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:05:54 +0900." <11080.897800754@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:57:29 -0700 Message-ID: <28625.897821849@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Maybe I'm not looking the right page, but the above BOF is not > listed on http://www.usenix.org/events/no98/brochure/bof.html. > I dunno why is it. Me neither, but it's definitely scheduled - I confirmed this with the BOF coordinator myself. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 08:32:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15530 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:32:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15521 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:32:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12202; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:32:30 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA18198; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:32:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980614173228.23705@follo.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:32:28 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Anatoly Vorobey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SF and literature (was Re: internationalization) References: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> <19980613211430.51924@follo.net> <19980613235641.01088@techunix.technion.ac.il> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980613235641.01088@techunix.technion.ac.il>; from Anatoly Vorobey on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:56:41PM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 11:56:41PM +0300, Anatoly Vorobey wrote: > You, Eivind Eklund, were spotted writing this on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200: > > The point isn't to see how many layers of allegories and symbols > > one can create, or how clever one can be with words. > > But neither is this the point of good fiction. Allegories and symbols > are but tools, which undo the beauty of a book when overused. Playing > with words is crosswords, not literature. > > If you think great literature is about allegories and symbols and > wordplay, you're seriously mistaken - maybe you had bad literature > teachers? :) I've just had this discussion too many times before, where people tend to point at the tools and say "If you don't use _those_ tools, you can't come play." I'm sick and tired of it, and tend to attempt to shoot that concept first. If they then start to blabber about that being the important point, I know I've not missed an interesting discussion. I've had irritating teachers, too - ones that "followed the book", where the book insisted that the use of green lampshades in the _scene descriptions_ was an extrememly important point in one of Ibsen's plays, symbolic of the depths of the human soul. > It's mainly about art, and about beauty, and about spontaneously > recreating new reality. I'm not certain what you mean by "spontaneously recreating new reality". > > > The point is to evoke a sense of wonder > > ("sensawunda"), to show how people could react to changes, > > Where are those people? Most of SF novels pay no attention to people > at all. Even the main characters are unbelievably shallow; they only > exist to illustrate author's ideas, they're not "real" by a long shot. > Which SF author knows how to describe his main hero smiling - did > you notice that almost any person you meet in your life smiles > differently? When SF authors do try to attribute some unique > characteristics to their heroes, they do it with banal metaphors and > worn-out images. This is perfectly acceptable for SF readers only > because of the non-written agreement between authors and readers - > authors are pretending they are describing human beings (or alien > beings for that matter), and readers are accustomed to not having > any idea how they look like, what clothes they wear, what are > their gestures, dreams, habits. It's OK because the reader is keen > to skip to the next great hyperdrive invention the hero is about > to unleash on the humanity. The people described aren't people, > they're badly made dolls. You're missing what (to me, at least) 'people' are. People aren't clothes, or smiles. People are minds. You're a person. Terry is a person. Jordan is a person. The girl sitting in the sun beneath my window is a cute. Her white dress gives a nice contrast to her black hair - it makes her pretty, an eye-rest. She wears a slightly tilted smile looking at her little dachs rustling around after something in the grass. The sunlight makes small shadows play in her dress as what little wind there is in street touch her, first this way, then that way. What does it matter? Until I talk with her, hear her expose ideas, feel her _think_ - she's a doll. I've read SF writers describing how they work. Mostly, they consciously avoid giving long-winded descriptions like the above. Give the reader some visual details to help them identify the character, and then move on. Get on with the story, filling in visual clues only on an 'as needed' basis. They're conscious about when they give the details - and they're conscious about not giving too much, building on the reader's imagination instead. > The sense of wonder is truly a great thing. But is it all that > one can enjoy in literature? It isn't even enough alone - a novel with sense of wonder as the prime consideration has to _extremely_ well done to not become trite. Right now, I can't think of any pure "sense of wonder" novels that are really good. However, I can think of novels where it plays a part. > What about the joy of words, of unusual images, of novel and > ingenious ways to describe human existence, emotions, thoughts and > ideas? I agree with your datum: Most of SF doesn't play with words and language. This is a feature of the style selected by the SF culture, and is a pity. There is a lot of room for expansion here (and some writers use it; still too few). As for novel and ingenious ways to describe human existence, emotions, thoughs and ideas: That's part of the facination of SF - however, it is done by changing the background instead of changing the wording. Same goal, different technique. Much of it don't work, but sometimes it do. > Compared to a Kafka novel, most of SF's originality shrinks to utter > banality! I may not have read enough Kafka - I can't remember anything that was very original, only a distinct style. He had a way with words that evoked feelings - but not feelings in areas I'm particularly interested in re-exploring (having spent a number of years in existensial despair, I don't want much more negative feelings for their own sake.). I feel the same with him as with quite a few other artists: I can see that he is good at what he does, but what he does is not an area that I casaully want to explore - too negative. I don't read Kafka to stress down - I may read him again when I'm not stressed and have time to assimilate. > When Tolstoy describes Anna Karenina, you feel you know > her better than people close to you in your own life - compare that > to the usual doll-hero in SF! Repeat above statement for just about all russian authors ;-) (Yes, I know Kafka wasn't russian) > > I certainly don't find it strange that this is what engineers prefer > > reading - many of us became engineers by inspiration from SF, and all > > of us work with shaping the future. We want to predict and shape, not > > read anout what fictional people could have done in the last century, > > unless it helps us understand the present or predict the future. > > Sure. That's the sign of our generation: look into the bright future, > forget about the old and boring past. We're going to have nanotechnology > soon, what do we care about Rabelais or Beethoven? The truth is that > with all our wonders of technology, we find ourselves in less and less > educated world, in the world where people are able to appreciate > beauty and have taste in things less and less with every year. Communications. There isn't time anymore; people don't find the time to sit down and look at things, hear things, enjoy things. We want everything _now_ - no waiting, no learning. > With all the wonders of alien technology, cyberpunk, subspace travel > and mindwaves SF as a genre still remains on the same level as > trashy romance novels and soap operas. The characters are just as > shallow, the plots are just as banal, the reality is just as > second-hand and trivial. For much of SF, I can't but agree. > And it plays the same social role, too: exclusively entertaining, > rather than helping one to learn more, to understand more. I disagree. If they stick with hard SF, most people can't but learn. It seldom is deep investigatins in the human mind, but it often investigate science (though not far) and technology (far). And what does "good literature" teach you? There is beauty there, of a different kind - and you can learn to appreciate it. Apart from that? "No man can reveal to aught but that wich already lies half asleep in the dawning of your knowledge." (From "The Prophet", by Kahlil Gibran. The chapter on teaching). Get your knowledge of yourself and your fellow humans from the world, from living - not from books! Talk to your fellow humans, see how they react, see how similar and how different they are! That's where you learn about people, and learn about yourself - not from reading about other's feelings, but from experiencing them, from learning to empatize directly with them - not with words in a book! > I'm not surprised engineers love reading SF. I'm surprised that > *good* engineers often still read only SF. I treat programming as > art (as much as I'm able to): and I perceive really well-desgined OS > kernel, really fast and nontrivial algorithm, as works of art. Yes and no. They can be enjoyed in much the same way as a work of art, but saying that good engineering and good art is the same thing do, IMHO, diminish both. > I'm surprised that people possessing amazing intelligence and sense > of beauty, allowing them to create such extremely complex and yet > extremely beautiful works of art are often uneducated in the vast > body of amazing art accumulated by humanity in the last thousands of > years, so blind to the beauty of good literature. Everybody is uneducated in some parts of the art that has been accumulated. There is simply too much of it. Read what you most enjoy, and always attempt to expand your vistas - in all directions. Eivind, lover of books (both SF and others). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 08:44:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16646 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:44:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16636 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 08:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12499; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:43:54 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA18280; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:43:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980614174352.11801@follo.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:43:52 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: drifter@stratos.net, Anatoly Vorobey , Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <199806121443.HAA09471@mailgate.cadence.com> <199806121619.JAA08857@usr02.primenet.com> <19980613212837.A17939@doriath.org> <19980613211430.51924@follo.net> <19980614020737.A4548@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980614020737.A4548@stratos.net>; from drifter@stratos.net on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:07:37AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 02:07:37AM -0400, drifter@stratos.net wrote: > [ Sorry about the length.. some context quoting is necessary ] Screw the length, this is -chat! :-) > > On Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > I believe you're missing the point of SF[1]. The point isn't to see > > how many layers of allegories and symbols one can create, or how > > clever one can be with words. The point is to evoke a sense of wonder > > ("sensawunda"), to show how people could react to changes, to make you > > aware of the infinite potential of technology and people, to paint a > > few brushstrokes at the edge of your imagination, showing what may yet > > become your (or your descendants) normal day. > > Not all science fiction is trashy literature, but I think > Anatoly has a point. It seems to me that much of SciFi (or SF, or > whatever the hell you wanna call it) falls under one of several themes. > 1) the "sensawunda" Eivind was talking about. Nothing wrong > with that, but nothing I can get really passionate about either. > 2) cliche "woe-is-mankind-with-all-this-technology" plotlines. > 3) in the year 2345, when there are no wars, no greed, no > disease, and everybody recycles. Bah. Even if this categorization type is valid, you have far from covered all. And I don't think this level of categorization is right, either - it's somewhat like categorizing books as "over 50,000 words, over 100,000 words, over 200,000 words" - yes, it is able to cut through the bookspace, but it isn't a very interesting classification unless you're attempting to categorize how many DLT-tapes you need to buy. > Science fiction -- if not just a technological flight-of-fancy -- > is often a tool for the author's social or political agenda. > I was a columnist for my college newspaper a few years > ago, and was no stranger to getting on political soapboxes :) But, > something about having ficticious characters speaking on behalf of > the author, rather than the author coming right out and saying what's > on his mind just annoys the hell out of me. The use of fiction to describe political ideas has a long history, and it is often much more efficient than "coming right out and saying what's on his mind". Fiction let people experience it emotionally, not just read about it as an abstract concept. You don't get touched by an article saying "100,000 are dead in Sudan" - you may be touched by a fictional piece describing the last days of one of them. > Admittedly, many of the best (usually) non-science fiction authors > historically have done this too. George Orwell comes to mind. > But somehow, non-science fiction writers pull it off better, possibly > because the characters are often more believable -- more real. I can > care about them and even identify with them. George Orwell is normally categorized as an SF writer. Certainly several of his most famous works are SF - "1984" and "Animal Farm" springs to mind. The same goes for Aldous Huxley. > Often, science fiction characters chase each other around > banks of blinking lights armed with phaser guns. That doesn't mean > science fiction won't cut it. I just personally prefer that > the technology should be the backdrop for good character development. Don't we all? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 11:05:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05967 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tao.sinanet.com.tw (tao.sinanet.com.tw [139.175.250.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05951 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ywliu1@tao.sinanet.com.tw) Received: (from ywliu1@localhost) by tao.sinanet.com.tw (8.8.8/8.8.5) id CAA19016; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 02:05:12 +0800 (CST) From: Hoffmann Yen-Wei Liu Message-Id: <199806141805.CAA19016@tao.sinanet.com.tw> Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980613105236.007f3100@mail.axess.com> from "Peter D. Pawelek" at "Jun 13, 98 10:52:36 am" To: ppawel@axess.com (Peter D. Pawelek) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 02:05:12 +0800 (CST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > within a few years. I've also grown tired of the core of Linux users who > evangelize the gospel according to GNU. I personally think Linux is a great OS, but it's those "users" that make me creep. I have known some Linux die-hards, who distain other Unices, and sometimes only know Linux only. I cannot help compare them with some NT and OS/2 advocates... some kind of "racists"... ywliu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 16:48:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28727 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:48:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (root@alex-va-n008c079.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28649; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (gjp@localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03547; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:47:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Itoh , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith , Julian Elischer , Luigi Rizzo , current@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: usenix In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:57:29 PDT." <28625.897821849@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:47:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3543.897868036@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote in message ID <28625.897821849@time.cdrom.com>: > > Maybe I'm not looking the right page, but the above BOF is not > > listed on http://www.usenix.org/events/no98/brochure/bof.html. > > I dunno why is it. > > Me neither, but it's definitely scheduled - I confirmed this with > the BOF coordinator myself. > > - Jordan And indeed its on the BOF board next to the reception area ;) Gary (From a very hot and sticky New Orleans) -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 17:01:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01422 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:01:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01382 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:00:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04235; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:00:47 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Draft of Nader letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James Love, assistant to Ralph Nader, has published a draft of a letter to be sent to the Justice Department regarding alternatives to Microsoft OSes. The letter shows a heavy bias toward Linux and makes some incorrect statements about FreeBSD. We should send feedback urging them to be less Linux-centric, mention the other *BSDs, correct the information on FreeBSD, and include commercial OSes (such as BSDI, QNX, BeOS, etc.) as well as just the free ones as alternatives to Microsoft's products. The draft can be found at http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jkjun151998.html --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 18:23:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13020 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:23:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13012 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs237-15.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.136]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id SAA10363; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:23:50 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:26:16 -0700 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: don morrison Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Maybe they changed the page since your post? (Some of your statements below are incorrect. e.g. They _did_ mention the BeOS.) I read the article, the whole thing and all the links to it, in fact, and I didn't find much of a linux bias. Bias is typically used as a negative term. There was definately some _enthusiasm_ for linux there and the free software movement in general, both of which deserved it, I think. As for FreeBSD coverage, I think Mr. Nader was considerably generous in including FreeBSD as much as he did in his letter considering he (most likely) only recently became aware of FreeBSD and hasn't had enough time to research it and come to the obvious conclusion that everything deserves a FreeBSD bias ;). Nowhere in his letter did he discuss superiority of one free OS over another, so I don't think it's fair to say there was a "linux bias". Coverage != bias. Besides, the FreeBSD coverage was fine! Take the FreeBSD user base. Take the Linux user base. If you look at those, and then look at how many times "FreeBSD" and "Linux" are mentioned in the letter, you'll see that FreeBSD is _grossly_ over-represented. This letter is about _consumers_; keep that in mind. >James Love, assistant to Ralph Nader, has published a draft of a letter to >be sent to the Justice Department regarding alternatives to Microsoft OSes. >The letter shows a heavy bias toward Linux and makes some incorrect >statements about FreeBSD. We should send feedback urging them to be less >Linux-centric, mention the other *BSDs, correct the information on FreeBSD, >and include commercial OSes (such as BSDI, QNX, BeOS, etc.) as well as just >the free ones as alternatives to Microsoft's products. The draft can be >found at > >http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jkjun151998.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 18:31:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13556 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13523 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21132; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:30:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806150130.SAA21132@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: don morrison cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:26:16 PDT." <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:30:22 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So perhaps we should inject our own bias and I do think that we have a good product -- Amancio , who recently installed, Red Hat 5.0 then deleted later on installed Turbo Linux 1.2 and it is about to delete the Turbo Linux partition if I run out of disk space. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 18:37:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14327 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14319 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs237-15.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.136]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id SAA10560; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:37:18 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614183944.00819660@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:39:44 -0700 To: Amancio Hasty From: don morrison Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806150130.SAA21132@rah.star-gate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >So perhaps we should inject our own bias and I do think that we have Nothing wrong with that! :) I'm just trying to defend a consumer advocate idol of mine here, ( <-- there's some bias right there, a little here, a little there, who needs some?! I got plenty. *grin* ) and keep people from sending him undeserved, nasty emails, especially since he would probably advocate _us_ if he were given enough time to learn more about what FreeBSD does so well. >a good product -- Amancio , who recently installed, Red Hat 5.0 then >deleted later on installed Turbo Linux 1.2 and it is about to delete >the Turbo Linux partition if I run out of disk space. Hrmmm, couldn't of predicted that. ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 18:42:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14902 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:42:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA14890 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 32492 invoked from network); 15 Jun 1998 01:42:01 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 1998 01:42:01 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-219.realtime.net [204.96.0.219]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA03640; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:41:48 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:48:13 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: don morrison cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I would have to concur on the thrust of your post, Don. I felt Linux was used as an example more than anything else. Mr. Love has only had the opportunity to look at FreeBSD a couple of months. Sure, I would like more coverage, but, in all not too bad. We should stay in tune to this and I would like to thank Brett for doing so. Thanks! John On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, don morrison wrote: > > Maybe they changed the page since your post? (Some of your statements below > are incorrect. e.g. They _did_ mention the BeOS.) I read the article, the > whole thing and all the links to it, in fact, and I didn't find much of a > linux bias. Bias is typically used as a negative term. There was > definately some _enthusiasm_ for linux there and the free software movement > in general, both of which deserved it, I think. As for FreeBSD coverage, > I think Mr. Nader was considerably generous in including FreeBSD as much as > he did in his letter considering he (most likely) only recently became > aware of FreeBSD and hasn't had enough time to research it and come to the > obvious conclusion that everything deserves a FreeBSD bias ;). Nowhere in > his letter did he discuss superiority of one free OS over another, so I > don't think it's fair to say there was a "linux bias". Coverage != bias. > Besides, the FreeBSD coverage was fine! Take the FreeBSD user base. Take > the Linux user base. If you look at those, and then look at how many times > "FreeBSD" and "Linux" are mentioned in the letter, you'll see that FreeBSD > is _grossly_ over-represented. This letter is about _consumers_; keep that > in mind. > > > >James Love, assistant to Ralph Nader, has published a draft of a letter to > >be sent to the Justice Department regarding alternatives to Microsoft OSes. > >The letter shows a heavy bias toward Linux and makes some incorrect > >statements about FreeBSD. We should send feedback urging them to be less > >Linux-centric, mention the other *BSDs, correct the information on FreeBSD, > >and include commercial OSes (such as BSDI, QNX, BeOS, etc.) as well as just > >the free ones as alternatives to Microsoft's products. The draft can be > >found at > > > >http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jkjun151998.html > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 18:46:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15247 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15179 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21285; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199806150145.SAA21285@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: don morrison cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:39:44 PDT." <3.0.5.32.19980614183944.00819660@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:45:46 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, the real problem is that FreeBSD pampers you too much is way t0 comfortable and I am not saying that because I am familiar with FreeBSD and not so familiar with Linux. Specially to blame is the ports collection!! Cheers, Amancio > >So perhaps we should inject our own bias and I do think that we have > > Nothing wrong with that! :) I'm just trying to defend a consumer advocate > idol of mine here, ( <-- there's some bias right there, a little here, a > little there, who needs some?! I got plenty. *grin* ) and keep people from > sending him undeserved, nasty emails, especially since he would probably > advocate _us_ if he were given enough time to learn more about what FreeBSD > does so well. > > >a good product -- Amancio , who recently installed, Red Hat 5.0 then > >deleted later on installed Turbo Linux 1.2 and it is about to delete > >the Turbo Linux partition if I run out of disk space. > > Hrmmm, couldn't of predicted that. ;) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 19:35:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21243 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21234 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs237-15.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.136]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id TAA24619; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:35:07 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614193733.0081f930@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:37:33 -0700 To: Amancio Hasty From: don morrison Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199806150145.SAA21285@rah.star-gate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Well, the real problem is that FreeBSD pampers you too much is way >t0 comfortable and I am not saying that because I am familiar >with FreeBSD and not so familiar with Linux. > >Specially to blame is the ports collection!! heh That's why you're uninstalling linux? (Your usage of "you" is ambiguous.) Nothing wrong with "pampering", maybe you meant "easy to use." :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 19:48:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23507 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23481 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:48:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06154; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:48:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806150248.UAA06154@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:48:11 -0600 To: don morrison , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> References: <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The description of FreeBSD said it was in the "public domain" (which is simply wrong) and described it as "non-copylefted" (true, but showing a bias toward Linux and the GPL). It also equated the "project" with the OS. --Brett At 06:26 PM 6/14/98 -0700, don morrison wrote: > >Maybe they changed the page since your post? (Some of your statements below >are incorrect. e.g. They _did_ mention the BeOS.) I read the article, the >whole thing and all the links to it, in fact, and I didn't find much of a >linux bias. Bias is typically used as a negative term. There was >definately some _enthusiasm_ for linux there and the free software movement >in general, both of which deserved it, I think. As for FreeBSD coverage, >I think Mr. Nader was considerably generous in including FreeBSD as much as >he did in his letter considering he (most likely) only recently became >aware of FreeBSD and hasn't had enough time to research it and come to the >obvious conclusion that everything deserves a FreeBSD bias ;). Nowhere in >his letter did he discuss superiority of one free OS over another, so I >don't think it's fair to say there was a "linux bias". Coverage != bias. >Besides, the FreeBSD coverage was fine! Take the FreeBSD user base. Take >the Linux user base. If you look at those, and then look at how many times >"FreeBSD" and "Linux" are mentioned in the letter, you'll see that FreeBSD >is _grossly_ over-represented. This letter is about _consumers_; keep that >in mind. > > >>James Love, assistant to Ralph Nader, has published a draft of a letter to >>be sent to the Justice Department regarding alternatives to Microsoft OSes. >>The letter shows a heavy bias toward Linux and makes some incorrect >>statements about FreeBSD. We should send feedback urging them to be less >>Linux-centric, mention the other *BSDs, correct the information on FreeBSD, >>and include commercial OSes (such as BSDI, QNX, BeOS, etc.) as well as just >>the free ones as alternatives to Microsoft's products. The draft can be >>found at >> >>http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/jkjun151998.html > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 19:50:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23743 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23678 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:49:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-45.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.45]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA18141; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:49:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA01003; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:50:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980615025001.ZM1002@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 02:50:01 +0000 In-Reply-To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis "Funny, but true..." (Jun 13, 4:59pm) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Funny, but true... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 13, 4:59pm, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > Subject: Funny, but true... > How to get an American Visa ? > > I noted that american people coming to Brasil do not understand > why they must get a visa. The reason is that the brasilian > foreign politics is to give foreigners the same treatment brasilians > receive in their country. Well, I want to take my vacations at > Disneyland (who said I'm too old for that ? :) ), and the United > States require a visa for me (Portuguese residing in Brazil) to enter > its territory. > > The most laughable thing is the form I was required to fill. > It is composed of some reasonable questions: Name, Address, > Documentation, etc., but also has these question (in portuguese, > the translation is mine): > > - Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? > - Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA > using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false > information ? > - Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, > subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? > - Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced > persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, > or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the > Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? > - Have you ever participated in a genocide ? > - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? > > Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to > answer yes to any of these questions ??? > > Jonny, I am not an official of the US Government, but I would suspect that the answers to these questions would enhance the ability to prosecute those that enter the USA and commit various crimes. It would allow prosecution and deportations based on entery under false pretense. That document you have to fill out is probable done under oath and is thus a sworn deposition. Basically it means that your leagal rights while here can depend on how truthful the answers to those questions are. I am aware that Americans, citizens of the USA, are often not well liked by citizens of other countries, but, we are not all fools either. So if you think about the implications of answering those questions falsely, you may get a clearer picture of why they are there. Frank Jonny > > -- > Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student > jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 20:26:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:26:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28007 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:26:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18822; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:26:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018811; Sun Jun 14 20:26:07 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA09328; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:26:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806150326.UAA09328@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: mellon@pobox.com (Anatoly Vorobey) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:26:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980614051600.62407@techunix.technion.ac.il> from "Anatoly Vorobey" at Jun 14, 98 05:16:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It supported and enhanced my interest in science; it made me curious > about computers; it inspired my daydreaming. Then it served its purpose... personally, I remember nearly every word I read until puberty, when my storage became non-eidetic. Luckily, I had several thousan books under my belt by then, and there are still with me. I can't believe no one has mentioned Dr. Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger's "Instrumentality of Mankind" under the Nom de plume of "Cordwainer Smith". Who can forget his novel of science under a totalitarian regime ("No, No, Not Rogov!")? It is socially relevent even today, especially in light of Stallmanism. > But there comes a time when one can look back and reassess the > books and genre he grew up with. And when I did that, I saw that > few books really stayed with me, enriched me, taught me something > besides another idea of a null-space. Looking back at the majority of 50's science fiction, when it was really "Westerns recast in space" (ie: Dard Nordis in Andre Norton's "The Stars are Ours!" is a protypical "cowboy"), I can see how you would come to that conclusion -- if that's all you ever read. I guiltily admit to having a very large collection of Tor "double books"; stories such as "The Rights of Ohe" and "Spacial Delivery" are clearly nothing more than space opera. > The favourite authors and > favourite books remain with me, but they are so rare in the sea > of funky aliens and badly thought-out future societies... You are reading the wrong books. Really. There is an entire sub-genre called "hard science science fiction"; it is written by outstanding scientists, sometimes leaders in tehir field, like Robert L. Forward. > But above all, I wonder: why only SF, or mostly SF? Why is Ovid > to be confined to a readership of classics departments in > universities? Why Shakespeare is something you learn at school > and then forget, or, at best, a source of worn-out quotes? Or Omar Khayyam's "Rubaiyat", oft-misquoted as Shakespeare? The problem is social relevence. SF is socially relevent; Shakespeare less so. Part of this can be blamed on English Majors, who appear to have little social utility other than the propagation of more English Majors, and the grading of coursework based on form (eg: spelling and punctuation) rather than content. Would you also dismiss Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" as not a classic because it is also SF? Jules Verne's "20,000 leagues unders the sea"? Carel Kapek's play "R.U.R.", from which we derive the word "Robot"? > >From a literary point of view, SF looks like an ignorant child. The > art of writing prose has been refined in Europe during the last > seven centuries. You mean it has stultified into "form is everything", don't you? > It's not easy, writing good prose; writers > gradually learned to carefully weave the plot line, to breathe > life into their characters, to avoid cliches and dead metaphors, > to shift narrative voices, to break and maintain unity of time, > place and action, to let their words flow or stumble as they > wished; to break the novel into a surrealistic chaos and resurrect > it in a Joycean synthesis. SF, as a genre, remains provincial and > ignorant in regard to this tradition of refining art of prose. Now I *know* you haven't read good SF; or you are yanking my chain: "Kid Afrika came crusing into Dog Solitude on the last day in November, his vintage Dodge chauffeured by a whitle girl named Cherry ChesterField. Slick Henry and Little Bird were breaking down the buzzsaw that formed the Judge's left hand when Kid's Dodge came into view, its patched apron bag throwing up brown fantails of the rusty water that pooled on the Solitude's uneven plain of compacted steel." "Repent, Harleqin!" said the Ticktockman. "Get stuffed". ... I could type quotes that contradict your premise all night. > SF authors, by and large, don't write well, just as cheap romance novels > aren't written well. You must be thinking of early work, unknowns, or people like "Frankowski" -- hacks on a par with Stephan King. > No SF novel I am familiar with begins > as beautifully as Nabokov's Lolita: "Lolita, light of my life, fire > of my loins. My sin, my soul. Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking > a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the > teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta." But one friend of mine doesn't understand my > fascination with this passage; he sees nothing but a few symbols and > allegories in it. He expects unusual wonders and novel technologies > in a book; he lacks the taste that can only be built up by > reading lots of good prose. "That golden shape on the golden steps shook and fluttered like a bird gone mad--like a bird imbued with an intellect and a soul, and, nevertheless, driven mad by ecstasies and terrors beyond human understanding--ecstasies drawn momentarily down into reality by the consumption of su[perlative art. A thousand worlds watched." "Castor was halfway across the paddy, part of the long line of farm workers, when he stepped on the dead man's head. He was not thinking about dead men. He wasn't really thinking about poking the rice seedlings into the muck, either, or about the warm rain dripping on his bent shoulders or about the ache in his back; he was thinking about Maria and her problem and about going for a swim and about whether it was possible that the people at the observatory would let him apply for a job there and mostly about what he and Maria would do in bed that night, and then all of the sudden, there it was. He didn't know it was a dead man's head at first. He couldn't see it, though the water was only centimeters deep, because the sowers had stirred up the bottom mud. His foot told him it was solid, and heavy, and didn't belong there. "Tourists," he muttered to old Sarah, next to him in line. "They throw their garbage anywhere they like!"" "Omphalos dominates Moscow, Green Idaho. It glows pale silver and gold like a fancy watch waiting to be stolen. A tetrahedron four hundred feet high, with two vertical faces and a triangular base, it is the biggest thing in town, more ostentatious than the nearby Mormon temple, though not so painfully white and spiky. The leading edge points at the heart of Moscow like a woodsman's wedge. The vertical fases descen, blind and windowless, to sink seventy feet below ground. The single sloping face is gently corrugated like a dazzling ivory washboard for the leaden sky." "It was a small town by a small river and a small lake in a small northern part of a Midwest state. There wasn't so much wilderness around you couldn't see the town. But on the other hand there wasn't so much town you couldn't see and touch and smell the wilderness. The town was full of trees. And dry grass and dead flowers now that autumn was here. And full of fences to walk on and sidewalks to skate on and a large ravine to tumble in and yell across. And the town was full of... Boys. And it was the afternoon of Halloween. And all the houses shut against a cold wind. And the town full of cold sunlight. But suddenly, the day was gone. Night came out from under each tree and spread." Again, I could quote all night... though I'd probably have to dig down to match Vladimir Nabokov's pedophilia, since I have few books which broach the subject (other than "Lolita" itself, of course, but that's not\SF). > I am far from condemning the genre. Every genre has its right to live. > But to read only SF, or even mostly SF, is in my opinion to miss > the exquisite beauty of great literature that is much more subtle, > beautiful, passionate and thrilling than all the spaceships and > subspaces of the multiverse. But by the same token, pointing at Sir Thomas Malory's "Le Morte Darthur" or Geoffrey Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" as fine literature merely because everyone else does, and "eruditely" shunning SF as "mostly doggerel" is akin to "Otto" in "A fish Called Wanda" claiming intelligence because "Apes don't read philosophy". As "Wanda" informed him, "Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it!". I'm not necessarily putting you in this category, but it's common for non-readers to claim "SF is trash" without them first taking a representative sample. > [a somewhat eclectic list of non-SF writers skipped; I must admit > I don't know who Guy Kawasaki is, and my knowledge of Japanese > authors is limited to Akutagava Ryunoske in prose and many haiku > authors in verse] Author of "The Macintosh way" and of "Selling the Dream". A former executive at Apple, Computer, currently on sabbataical, but not expected to return since the reinvention of Steve Jobs. 8-). He's a well known Western marketing guru. [ ... more praise of Lem, which I do not disagree with, so won't comment ... ] > of Lem's thought (quite well-known Hofstadter and Dennett's anthology > "The Mind's I" of '81 dealing with similar range of problems is > unaware of "Summa technologiae" and some of the articles and > commentaries in it look amazingly childish compared to that work of the > 50ies). Here you aren't crediting Hofstadter (or for that matter, Godel). > And what is read by Lem when Lem is read? Most computer scientists or > SF lovers who read Lem are familiar only with "Cyberiad", sometimes > the "Diaries of Ijon Tichy", rarely with anything else. These are > very good, and very funny works, but they are *old*, they have > been written in 50ies and 60ies, and since then Lem has been writing > amazingly smart and beatiful SF for more than 30 years. "Solaris", > "Fiasco", "Investigation"... many more novels and stories, essays and > novelettes which together comprise some of the best SF ever written andmost > of which remain virtually unknown to American readers. I own a 14-volumed > set of Lem's works translated into Russian, and these are selected, not > complete works. I suppose that a half of these works were > even never translated into English. Here I think you are unfair to use "Most" here, at least without a survey to point to. I have a full collection of the Lem English translations: Imaginary Magnitude, The Chain of Chance, The Cyberiad, Tales of Pirx the Pilot, More Tales of Pirx the Pilot, Memoiurs of a Space Traveller, Memoirs Found in a Bathtub, The Futurological Congress, The Investigation, The Invincible, His Master's Voice, A Perfect Vacuum, Solaris, The Star Diaries, Return From the Stars, Mortal Engines, Eden, Fiasco, The Hospital of the Transfiguration, Microworlds, One Human Minute. And I have forced many computer scientists to read them. 8-). I'm even aware of Lem trivia, such as the theme to the TV series "Cosmos" (by Isao Tomita, on of my favorite synthesizer artists) was inspired by a viewing of the Russian Since fiction movie "Solaris", based on Lem's book "Solaris". I even have the movie "Solaris", in Russian, with English subtitles (sorry; I don't do Slavic languages yet). I have to say the tunnel scene rivals the 2001 time-to-orbit scene for "scenes which are too long even for a otherwise very good movie". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 20:34:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29140 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:34:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29130 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:34:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs237-15.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.136]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id UAA25190; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:34:30 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614203656.00814950@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:36:56 -0700 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: don morrison Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <199806150248.UAA06154@lariat.lariat.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >The description of FreeBSD said it was in the "public domain" (which This is bean counting. The letter was not meant to be read as a legal document. That's why the author decided not to bore the reader with the exact terms of the BSD and GNU licenses. If you were in the linux camp you would likely complain about how the GNU license was misrepresented. The point is, it wasn't the topic of the letter, so statements about licenses and so forth were kept to a minimum. The statement "public domain" was made for its connotations--to give the reader the feeling that the software is for free use by anybody. And it is. It did not bother me at all that he failed to mention that the BSD sources must retain the copyright notices and acknowledments to the regents of the University of California, at Berkeley. This is entirely irrelavent to the purpose of the letter. >is simply wrong) and described it as "non-copylefted" (true, but showing >a bias toward Linux and the GPL). It also equated the "project" with the >OS. To me this doesn't show a bias, it simply shows that the author is oriented with the copyleft, and ignorant of the BSD license and that he's trying to indicate that to you. As for the project being equated with the OS, when he refers to FreeBSD, keep in mind that he's referring to a particular *BSD; he speaks of Linux more in general. It seems correct to me, then, for him to have made the distinction in that way that FreeBSD can be thought of as one particular project, whereas, linux must be thought of as a bunch of distributions. This is just a bit of terminology. The importance is the mental picture. What was wrong with the picture it gave you? There are a number of things I could have said in _this_ message if I wanted to be ultra-precise, but I did not, because I decided to favor readability. This does not mean my message lacked proper content nor validity. It's just called communication. And I think my message has good intent, just as Mr. Nader and Mr. Love's did. Thanks for listening. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 20:39:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:39:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00126 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27336; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:39:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027276; Sun Jun 14 20:39:38 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA09731; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:39:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199806150339.UAA09731@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: internationalization To: drifter@stratos.net Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 03:39:33 +0000 (GMT) Cc: eivind@yes.no, mellon@pobox.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980614020737.A4548@stratos.net> from "drifter@stratos.net" at Jun 14, 98 02:07:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not all science fiction is trashy literature, but I think > Anatoly has a point. It seems to me that much of SciFi (or SF, or > whatever the hell you wanna call it) falls under one of several themes. > 1) the "sensawunda" Eivind was talking about. Nothing wrong > with that, but nothing I can get really passionate about either. > 2) cliche "woe-is-mankind-with-all-this-technology" plotlines. > 3) in the year 2345, when there are no wars, no greed, no > disease, and everybody recycles. Read Greg Bear, Robert Forward, Bruce Sterling, or any of a hundred others I will name for you if you insist. Let me know beforehand if you specifically want wonderous prose, one single technological trend projection, or whatever. Most of the SF I read is of type: 4) What will people's reactions/lives be like if this trend continues. > Science fiction -- if not just a technological flight-of-fancy -- > is often a tool for the author's social or political agenda. As is all other literature. Lewis Carrol's "Through the Looking Glass" is a trieste on the British Monarchies political policies. > I was a columnist for my college newspaper a few years > ago, and was no stranger to getting on political soapboxes :) But, > something about having ficticious characters speaking on behalf of > the author, rather than the author coming right out and saying what's > on his mind just annoys the hell out of me. I would recommend avoiding "The Federalist Papers", then, what with the fictional "Publius"... ;-). > Admittedly, many of the best (usually) non-science fiction authors > historically have done this too. George Orwell comes to mind. > But somehow, non-science fiction writers pull it off better, possibly > because the characters are often more believable -- more real. I can > care about them and even identify with them. George Orwell was a science fiction writer. 1984 was a future history, which is about as cliche a science fiction plot device as you can get. The book is still a classic, however, because the important point was to suspend disbelief over the plot device. > Often, science fiction characters chase each other around > banks of blinking lights armed with phaser guns. That doesn't mean > science fiction won't cut it. I just personally prefer that > the technology should be the backdrop for good character development. I think you are watching SF, not reading it. ;-). Read Greg Bear's "Slant" or Phillip K. Dick's Novella "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep". Or read Richard Preston's "The Cobra Event" or Bruce Sterling's "Holy Fire". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 21:04:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03145 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:04:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bone.nectar.com (bone.nectar.com [204.27.67.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03060; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@bone.nectar.com) Received: from bone.nectar.com (localhost.communique.net [127.0.0.1]) by bone.nectar.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA03567; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:03:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806150403.XAA03567@bone.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-pgp262.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <3543.897868036@gjp.erols.com> References: <3543.897868036@gjp.erols.com> Subject: Re: usenix To: "Gary Palmer" cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:03:29 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Welcome -- we're having record heat this weekend ;-) Jacques Vidrine On 14 June 1998 at 19:47, "Gary Palmer" wrote: > And indeed its on the BOF board next to the reception area ;) > > Gary (From a very hot and sticky New Orleans) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNYSdETeRhT8JRySpAQGCMwP9E+S1f9i3fXHMmPohjVXmUCP1hYN8xjEL ufY+m8yEF1JO3wvAOxsKXmSq/0iEwAFF17t+ZaGq88xZ8JOkba98oYjat6x7QVcT H4zBUbIjUPezAt1ij8HldzzzrkuKBvmHSaFKadenB+g4Bb4Z3dFcFfwGDMhQreme daTLHGRlLb8= =aSzh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 21:18:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05582 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07271; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:17:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806150417.WAA07271@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:17:13 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614203656.00814950@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> References: <199806150248.UAA06154@lariat.lariat.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:36 PM 6/14/98 -0700, don morrison wrote: >>The description of FreeBSD said it was in the "public domain" (which > >This is bean counting. The letter was not meant to be read as a legal >document. That's why the author decided not to bore the reader with the >exact terms of the BSD and GNU licenses. Not so at all. You're forgetting that the addressee is a lawyer. He'll know far more about "public domain" and its implications than about many other things in the letter. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 21:47:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09427 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:47:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA09404 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs237-15.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.136]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id VAA26068; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:47:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614214946.00822820@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 21:49:46 -0700 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: don morrison Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <199806150417.WAA07271@lariat.lariat.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614203656.00814950@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150248.UAA06154@lariat.lariat.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Not so at all. You're forgetting that the addressee is a lawyer. He'll know >far more about "public domain" and its implications than about many other >things in the letter. Look, you're still nit-picking. The specific license terms of FreeBSD were not the topic of discussion. All in all, I think FreeBSD was fairly well represented, positively even, and _in general_, in a correct manner. Do you think that lawyers are incapable of understanding the pretense of when a message is written in basic generality? A better way to engage Mr. Nader and Mr. Love than screaming at them for not being perfect would be to write them a letter telling about the Berkeley License and what good it has done for the world. Undoubtably, that is why they bothered to mention the GNU License--I'm sure many GNU supporters have written them saying, "Have you heard about GNU? It's great! It's done......" Get what I'm saying? I can understand why it irked you, but it's really a moot point. Don't waste your time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 22:15:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12855 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12840 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:15:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07861; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:15:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199806150515.XAA07861@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:14:35 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980614214946.00822820@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> References: <199806150417.WAA07271@lariat.lariat.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614203656.00814950@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150248.UAA06154@lariat.lariat.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:49 PM 6/14/98 -0700, don morrison wrote: >Look, you're still nit-picking. The specific license terms of FreeBSD were >not the topic of discussion. I guess you didn't read the letter. License terms were emphasized there. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 22:30:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14381 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14298 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:29:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs237-15.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.136]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id WAA26578; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:29:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980614223150.007bd4b0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:31:50 -0700 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: don morrison Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <199806150515.XAA07861@lariat.lariat.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19980614214946.00822820@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150417.WAA07271@lariat.lariat.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614203656.00814950@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150248.UAA06154@lariat.lariat.org> <3.0.5.32.19980614182616.0080c6c0@dmorrisn.deskmail.washing ton.edu> <199806150000.SAA04235@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 09:49 PM 6/14/98 -0700, don morrison wrote: > >>Look, you're still nit-picking. The specific license terms of FreeBSD were >>not the topic of discussion. > >I guess you didn't read the letter. License terms were emphasized there. No, I guess you didn't read my messages, because I stated that I read the whole thing, or perhaps you're implying that I am not capable of reading a message? Perhaps only if I see through the same eyes as yours? Perhaps my mistake here was turning this into something personal, and for that, my apologies. I will not make that mistake again. I have not been involved with the project as long as you have, and since I don't know whether this list is a list dedicated for flame wars or not, I'm stopping here. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jun 14 23:42:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20128 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:42:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (cyclone.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA20073 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:41:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) From: malte@webmore.com Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.162]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:43:21 +0200 Received: (from malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA00529; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:41:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <980615025001.ZM1002@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:41:02 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com To: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Funny, but true... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The whole thing has somewhat of a classical paradoxon. - Assume you are a person that wants to enter US-territory and belongs into the class of people that are covered by the questions (terrorist, prostitute, criminal, ... whatever). 1. If you tell the truth when asked this questions, you will be kicked off and are not allowed to enter US-territory. So you are forced to lie. 2. If you lie on the questions, you will be kicked off, when they find out you did not tell the truth; so you are forced to tell the truth. 3. Goto 1. Malte. On 15-Jun-98 Frank Pawlak wrote: > On Jun 13, 4:59pm, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: >> Subject: Funny, but true... >> How to get an American Visa ? >> >> I noted that american people coming to Brasil do not understand >> why they must get a visa. The reason is that the brasilian >> foreign politics is to give foreigners the same treatment brasilians >> receive in their country. Well, I want to take my vacations at >> Disneyland (who said I'm too old for that ? :) ), and the United >> States require a visa for me (Portuguese residing in Brazil) to enter >> its territory. >> >> The most laughable thing is the form I was required to fill. >> It is composed of some reasonable questions: Name, Address, >> Documentation, etc., but also has these question (in portuguese, >> the translation is mine): >> >> - Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? >> - Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA >> using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false >> information ? >> - Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, >> subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? >> - Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced >> persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, >> or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the >> Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? >> - Have you ever participated in a genocide ? >> - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? >> >> Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to >> answer yes to any of these questions ??? >> >> > > Jonny, > > I am not an official of the US Government, but I would suspect that the > answers > to these questions would enhance the ability to prosecute those that enter > the > USA and commit various crimes. It would allow prosecution and deportations > based on entery under false pretense. That document you have to fill out is > probable done under oath and is thus a sworn deposition. > > Basically it means that your leagal rights while here can depend on how > truthful the answers to those questions are. > > I am aware that Americans, citizens of the USA, are often not well liked by > citizens of other countries, but, we are not all fools either. So if you > think > about the implications of answering those questions falsely, you may get a > clearer picture of why they are there. > > Frank > > Jonny >> >> -- >> Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student >> jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >>-- End of excerpt from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: malte@webmore.com Date: 15-Jun-98 Time: 08:23:17 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 02:59:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11777 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 02:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA11761 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 02:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ylW28-00064T-00; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:58:36 +0200 Message-ID: <19980615115835.A23331@cityip.co.za> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:58:35 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BIND going quasi-commercial? Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This may be old news: http://www.merit.net/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg03290.html Seems BIND is going the sendmail route. -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 05:50:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA03630 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1580.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA03586 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:50:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00269; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:51:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:51:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Michael Hancock cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: John Dyson Moves On In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Michael Hancock wrote: > Yikes, resigned! I would have like to have heard a sabbatical to cool > off. Resigned sounds very final, but the suddenness make it also sound > like an emotional decision. Indeed, I was a little surprised, too. :-) However, even though it's not really appropriate to begin any accolades before whatever announcement John makes (if he feels like making one), I don't think anyone will begrudge an exception in this case. ;-) John Dyson has, needless to say, done a tremendous job handling the subtlities of FreeBSD's inner workings, helping design perhaps the best VM system in existance, but beyond that, he has often participated in the FreeBSD newsgroups and mailing-lists. He has been willing to answer questions and explain what, to the other party, at least, must have seemed the inexplicable. As far as I can tell he has always answered and responded to any complaints -current users have. If it wasn't for Dyson, we wouldn't have bounce buffers! Not only has he been a tremendous help within FreeBSD, but he has always been willing (if occasionally too willing ;-) to stand-up for FreeBSD on the outside, preaching the good news to any who will listen. Of late, he has often been seen on -chat encouraging other advocates of FreeBSD. I can remember John saying in the newsgroups that he was confident that if he should ever leave the FreeBSD project, people would step-up to fill his place. John will be missed, but now is our time to justify the confidence he placed in us. I guess this means that dg will finally have to pull his weight around here. ;-) ;-) ;-) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 05:58:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05458 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05424 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:58:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id IAA26266; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:57:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199806151257.IAA26266@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: John Dyson Moves On To: ac199@hwcn.org Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at Jun 15, 98 08:51:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > However, even though it's not really appropriate to begin any > accolades before whatever announcement John makes (if he feels > like making one), I don't think anyone will begrudge an exception > in this case. ;-) > > John Dyson has, needless to say, done a tremendous job handling > the subtlities of FreeBSD's inner workings, helping design > perhaps the best VM system in existance, but beyond that, he has > often participated in the FreeBSD newsgroups and mailing-lists. > He has been willing to answer questions and explain what, to the > other party, at least, must have seemed the inexplicable. As far > as I can tell he has always answered and responded to any > complaints -current users have. If it wasn't for Dyson, we > wouldn't have bounce buffers! Not only has he been a tremendous > help within FreeBSD, but he has always been willing (if > occasionally too willing ;-) to stand-up for FreeBSD on the > outside, preaching the good news to any who will listen. Of > late, he has often been seen on -chat encouraging other advocates > of FreeBSD. > > I can remember John saying in the newsgroups that he was > confident that if he should ever leave the FreeBSD project, > people would step-up to fill his place. John will be missed, but > now is our time to justify the confidence he placed in us. If John ever makes it to New Jersey, I figure I owe him at least a drink and probably dinner for all the work he's done on FreeBSD (especially bounce buffers). THANKS JOHN. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill/Carolyn Pechter | 17 Meredith Drive | Tinton Falls, New Jersey 07724 | | 908-389-3592 | Save computing history, give an old geek old hardware. | | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 06:02:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06382 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:02:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1580.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06320 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00283; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:02:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:02:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Brett Glass cc: don morrison , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: <199806150248.UAA06154@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 14 Jun 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > The description of FreeBSD said it was in the "public domain" (which > is simply wrong) and described it as "non-copylefted" (true, but showing > a bias toward Linux and the GPL). It also equated the "project" with the > OS. The point of the article (at that point) was to praise the mechanisms that have produced competing OSs. I thought the letter was pretty good and fair, actually. We're closer to "public domain" than we are to "copyleft". Neither copyleft nor or license is explained, other than to say that they are both free and threatened by certain predatory practices. How would you have him explain our mix of licenses (which ranges from public domain to GPL)? Besides that, a "FreeBSD license" is mentioned. The intended audience is not stupid and knows that this implies something more complex than "just" p/d. Never let facts get in the way of a good argument. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 06:27:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11341 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (cc344191-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.83.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA11324 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 06:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Received: by luomat.peak.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id JAA16853 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806151327.JAA16853@luomat.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199806140002.TAA05719@nospam.hiwaay.net> From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Mon, 15 Jun 98 09:27:30 -0400 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Is Linux leaving FreeBSD behind? References: <199806140002.TAA05719@nospam.hiwaay.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Author: David Kelly Original-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:02:01 -0500 Message-ID: <199806140002.TAA05719@nospam.hiwaay.net> > > I fear that the Linux 'community' is starting to balkanize (ie. > > RedHat's largely divisive strategy of 'market' domination and > > de-standardization) and will likely degenerate into a muddled > > anarchy within a few years. The lack of a "center" is what keeps me from getting really involved with Linux. I did not know (but was not surprised) that a commercial force being introduced would really disturb the flow.... (Just like I would not be surprised if sendmail gets more and more obscure now that it has gone for commercial support) > > I've also grown tired of the core of Linux users who evangelize > > the gospel according to GNU. > > Very well put. Describes my feelings about 3 years ago when I jumped off > Linux when it crashed and trashed its filesystems the 3rd time in one > week. FreeBSD filesystems may be slower, but losing data is even slower. I really like the fact that there are official routes (in FreeBSD) from which to get patches, etc, rather than being posted all over the net (Linux style). I don't intend or want to start up the debate, just sharing why I prefer FreeBSD. TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 07:28:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20513 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:28:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA20507 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id HAA40444; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:28:39 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id HAA02606; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:18:18 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Tim Vanderhoek cc: Brett Glass , don morrison , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Draft of Nader letter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After reading a great discussion I would like to thank you all for lively discussion. It is good to be back. You can write a letter to Mr. Nader and Mr. Love saying thanks for mentioning the alternatives, including FreeBSD. You can tell them that FreeBSD is really behind them. It is not necessary to tell them of any shortcomings. You can then tell them you are in the FreeBSD camp. And tell them to keep up the good work. We can tell them we feel that the computer industry could user some consumer advocacy (nader's specialty). This way we can advocate FreeBSD. Hey, it's not necessary to complain to anyone to let them know we exist. Notice that the above discussion doesn't point out any errors that Mr. Nader or Mr. Love may have. It _does_ let them know that FreeBSD is out their and that we are interested in advancing the alternative OSes. I am getting a bit philosophic now. It is not always necessary to speak directly of an issue for your position on that issue to be communicated. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 07:48:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22735 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:48:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rfcnet.com (rfcnet.com [207.227.20.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22729 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:48:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mattc@rfcnet.com) Received: (from mattc@localhost) by rfcnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06374; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:48:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mattc) Message-ID: <19980615094838.A6216@rfcnet.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:48:38 -0500 From: Matthew Cashdollar To: Bill Vermillion , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: mail only for users in aliases References: <199806150205.WAA14847@bilver.magicnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199806150205.WAA14847@bilver.magicnet.net>; from Bill Vermillion on Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 10:05:33PM -0400 x-no-archive: yes Organization: RF Communications, Inc. http://www.rfcinc.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jun 14, 1998 at 10:05:33PM -0400, Bill Vermillion wrote: > Recently Mike Fisher said: > > > -- Mike "I swear - by my life and by my love of it - that I will > > never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live > > for mine." --Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged_ Interesting comments coming from a supporter of capitalism. Haha. > Words to live by. I re-read this book every few years to keep my > spirits up. That is great, but keep in mind the the differences between fantasy and reality. A favorite quote of mine from the philosophy that 'objectivism' is based upon: All for ourselves, and nothing for the people, seems, in every age of the world to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind. -Adam Smith I love how these right wingers constantly contradict themselves :) -- Matthew Cashdollar To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 07:52:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23151 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23071 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:51:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11801 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:40:31 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <358532BA.756542A9@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:42:02 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <19980613211430.51924@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 09:14:30PM +0200 <199806140740.AAA08983@kithrup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > books of *any* genre that I've ever read is Terry Pratchett's _Small Gods_ -- > for what it says about us, and our history, and our beliefs and ethics.) left in because it's such a good book ;-) > To get this back to something even *remotely* on topic... I think -chat should borrow alt.fan.pratchett's coding system so we don't have to :) Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 13:20:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18703 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:20:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gjp.erols.com (root@alex-va-n008c079.moon.jic.com [206.156.18.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18691 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) Received: from gjp.erols.com (gjp@localhost.erols.com [127.0.0.1]) by gjp.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08435; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:19:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from gjp@gjp.erols.com) To: Jacques Vidrine cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Gary Palmer" Subject: Re: usenix In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 14 Jun 1998 23:03:29 CDT." <199806150403.XAA03567@bone.nectar.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:19:00 -0400 Message-ID: <8432.897941940@gjp.erols.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jacques Vidrine wrote in message ID <199806150403.XAA03567@bone.nectar.com>: > Welcome -- we're having record heat this weekend ;-) And don't I know it ... I'm scottish by origin ... this heat is MURDER! Especially the humidity ... heat (dry heat) I can sort of deal with :-/ Gary -- Gary Palmer FreeBSD Core Team Member FreeBSD: Turning PC's into workstations. See http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/ for info To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 13:28:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20420 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from panzer.plutotech.com (ken@panzer.plutotech.com [206.168.67.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20196; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.plutotech.com) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA26235; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:27:37 -0600 (MDT) From: "Kenneth D. Merry" Message-Id: <199806152027.OAA26235@panzer.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: usenix In-Reply-To: <8432.897941940@gjp.erols.com> from Gary Palmer at "Jun 15, 98 04:19:00 pm" To: gpalmer@FreeBSD.ORG (Gary Palmer) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:27:37 -0600 (MDT) Cc: n@nectar.com, FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gary Palmer wrote... > Jacques Vidrine wrote in message ID > <199806150403.XAA03567@bone.nectar.com>: > > Welcome -- we're having record heat this weekend ;-) > > And don't I know it ... I'm scottish by origin ... this heat is > MURDER! Especially the humidity ... heat (dry heat) I can sort of deal > with :-/ Well, take a hint from a real southerner(tm). :) Stay inside in the air conditioning. :) (I'm flying in there tomorrow, and I'll probably be staying inside as much as possible.) If you can't stay inside, wear shorts and two shirts, so the outside shirt is still somewhat dry when you sweat through the one on the inside. :) Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 14:09:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28181 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:09:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28157; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:09:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25015; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:09:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199806152109.PAA25015@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: copyright In-Reply-To: from "Bryan K. Ogawa" at "Jun 13, 98 08:30:24 pm" To: bkogawa@primenet.com Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:09:17 -0600 (MDT) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org bryan k ogawa pointed out: > Another very positive mention of FreeBSD on InfoWorld Electric. Nicholas > Petreley says nice things about FreeBSD, particularly WC's documentation > for the set: > > http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?59820 Nice catch, Bryan. I cross-posted this on purpose, to reach the widest audience possible. Sorry for thos of you who received 2 or more copies. Everyone take a look at this article, and the FreeBSD follow-ups. Take a minute to post your own (positive!) FreeBSD success stories. I've directed replies to advocacy, since that is the most appropriate forum. Thanks for your help. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 15:24:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10229 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:24:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10186 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:23:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25105; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:23:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199806152223.QAA25105@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Funny, but true... In-Reply-To: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis at "Jun 13, 98 04:59:19 pm" To: jonny@jonny.eng.br (Joao Carlos Mendes Luis) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 16:23:36 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonny asked: > Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to > answer yes to any of these questions ??? No, but then we can throw you out of the country (or in jail) for lying on your application. Remember, in the USA, there is no crime greater than lying on a government form. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 15:26:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10775 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:26:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10668 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (kashyyyk-1-169.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.133.43]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id RAA27664 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:25:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA03132 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:26:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980615222606.ZM3131@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:26:06 +0000 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (Fwd) [S.u.S.E. Linux] The Gospel according to a Hacker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here it is friends and neighbors, at last the gospel, the good news for one and all. Even perhaps some flame material. Frank --- Forwarded mail from suse-linux-e@suse.com Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:11:08 +0200 (CEST) From: Jim Hatridge To: linux-newbie@vger.rutgers.edu, suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: [S.u.S.E. Linux] The Gospel according to a Hacker Reply-To: suse-linux-e@suse.com The Gospel according to a Hacker In the beginning there was the C, and the C was with Ritchie, and the C was UNIX. The same was in the beginning with Kernighan and Ritchie; and the UNIX shineth in darkness, and the DOS comprehendeth it not. There was a man sent from MIT, whose name was Stallman. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the GNU. He said, "I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, `make straight the path of the GNU,' as saith the EMACS." The next day Stallman seeth Linus coming unto him, and saith, "Behold the kernel of the GNU, which taketh away the price of the software." And Stallman bare record, saying, "I saw the Linux descending upon Linus from C like a penguin." And Linus said, "Blessed be the eight-char tab, "and blessed be the 24-line screen, "and blessed be the broken-up function. "Be compatible with those who are incompatible with you, "and emulate those who ignore your API." For Stallman so loved the GNU, that he he gave his only written software, the EMACS, that all through it might be freed. And Linus wrote an OS, even the 0.99 version, and the 1.x version, and the 2.x version. And behold, Linux ran Emacs, and Netscape, and Motif. But the disciples of Linus wished all to be free like the EMACS, and wrote Lesstif, and Wine, and GIMP. And as he gave his disciples bits of Wine and bits of DOS, they asked, "What will happen to BSD?" And Linus said, "The BSD people should have added these features a long time ago. Now mabey they will." And he who addeth or fixeth shall be glorified as a great hacker. Be it ever so done, in the name of UNIX, Amen. -- To get out of this list, please send email to majordomo@suse.com with this text in its body: unsubscribe suse-linux-e ---End of forwarded mail from suse-linux-e@suse.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 17:32:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27748 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:32:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27739 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:32:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (kashyyyk-1-115.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.131.115]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id TAA07374; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:31:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA03308; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 19:31:58 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980616003156.ZM3307@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:31:56 +0000 In-Reply-To: malte@webmore.com "Re: Funny, but true..." (Jun 15, 8:41am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: malte@webmore.com, Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Funny, but true... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paradox? Not so sure that it is. They case you make is true. No matter how the questions are answered, if you are an undesirable alien you are either not admitted or kicked out. That is how things should be. In effect we already have more than our quota of naive terrorists. prostitutes, and other assorted criminals without importing any more. The primary function of a central government is to protect its' citizens from those individuals or groups that wish us harm. The end result is that if you are a citizen of a foreign country, and don't belong to any of those classes of people, you are entirely welcome to enter, visit, and enjoy the USA. If you are a person of such stature that has a problem truthfully answering those questions, I'm not so sure that I'd want you here either. Be it paradoxical or not, mission acomplished. Whether or not the State Department is paranoid or not, personally I'd prefer that they were a little paranoid. As I stated, there are citizens of other countries, rightly or wrongly, that don't hold Americans or the USA in high esteem. We really don't need outsiders doing World Trade Center bombings or opening up with an AK47 and hosing the shit out of a bunch innocent civilians just to get their rocks off. Frank On Jun 15, 8:41am, malte@webmore.com wrote: > Subject: Re: Funny, but true... > The whole thing has somewhat of a classical paradoxon. > - Assume you are a person that wants to enter US-territory and > belongs into the class of people that are covered by the > questions (terrorist, prostitute, criminal, ... whatever). > > 1. If you tell the truth when asked this questions, you will be > kicked off and are not allowed to enter US-territory. > So you are forced to lie. > 2. If you lie on the questions, you will be kicked off, when they > find out you did not tell the truth; so you are forced to tell > the truth. > 3. Goto 1. > > Malte. > > On 15-Jun-98 Frank Pawlak wrote: > > On Jun 13, 4:59pm, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > >> Subject: Funny, but true... > >> How to get an American Visa ? > >> > >> I noted that american people coming to Brasil do not understand > >> why they must get a visa. The reason is that the brasilian > >> foreign politics is to give foreigners the same treatment brasilians > >> receive in their country. Well, I want to take my vacations at > >> Disneyland (who said I'm too old for that ? :) ), and the United > >> States require a visa for me (Portuguese residing in Brazil) to enter > >> its territory. > >> > >> The most laughable thing is the form I was required to fill. > >> It is composed of some reasonable questions: Name, Address, > >> Documentation, etc., but also has these question (in portuguese, > >> the translation is mine): > >> > >> - Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? > >> - Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA > >> using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false > >> information ? > >> - Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, > >> subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? > >> - Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced > >> persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, > >> or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the > >> Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? > >> - Have you ever participated in a genocide ? > >> - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? > >> > >> Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to > >> answer yes to any of these questions ??? > >> > >> > > > > Jonny, > > > > I am not an official of the US Government, but I would suspect that the > > answers > > to these questions would enhance the ability to prosecute those that enter > > the > > USA and commit various crimes. It would allow prosecution and deportations > > based on entery under false pretense. That document you have to fill out is > > probable done under oath and is thus a sworn deposition. > > > > Basically it means that your leagal rights while here can depend on how > > truthful the answers to those questions are. > > > > I am aware that Americans, citizens of the USA, are often not well liked by > > citizens of other countries, but, we are not all fools either. So if you > > think > > about the implications of answering those questions falsely, you may get a > > clearer picture of why they are there. > > > > Frank > > > > Jonny > >> > >> -- > >> Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student > >> jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro > >> > >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > >>-- End of excerpt from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: malte@webmore.com > Date: 15-Jun-98 > Time: 08:23:17 > ---------------------------------- >-- End of excerpt from malte@webmore.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jun 15 22:42:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20570 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20529 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:41:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA32390 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:41:39 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id WAA06124 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:31:17 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: There, their and they're Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just so you all know, I have a genetic disease which utterly prevents me from getting these damn words straight in any context. Just watch my email. You will see one of these errors in practically everything I write. Their, I am glad to get that off my chest. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 01:02:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA17397 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA17225 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.169]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:01:38 +0200 Received: (from malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00691; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <980616003156.ZM3307@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:57:21 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com From: Malte Lance To: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Funny, but true... Cc: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank, you are right !!! I were looking through abstract philosophical eyes on a feature of real life. If my previous mail was offending to you, then please take my apologize. Malte. On 16-Jun-98 Frank Pawlak wrote: > Paradox? Not so sure that it is. They case you make is true. No matter how > the questions are answered, if you are an undesirable alien you are either > not > admitted or kicked out. That is how things should be. In effect we already > have more than our quota of naive terrorists. prostitutes, and other assorted > criminals without importing any more. The primary function of a central > government is to protect its' citizens from those individuals or groups that > wish us harm. > > The end result is that if you are a citizen of a foreign country, and don't > belong to any of those classes of people, you are entirely welcome to enter, > visit, and enjoy the USA. If you are a person of such stature that has a > problem truthfully answering those questions, I'm not so sure that I'd want > you > here either. Be it paradoxical or not, mission acomplished. > > Whether or not the State Department is paranoid or not, personally I'd prefer > that they were a little paranoid. As I stated, there are citizens of other > countries, rightly or wrongly, that don't hold Americans or the USA in high > esteem. We really don't need outsiders doing World Trade Center bombings or > opening up with an AK47 and hosing the shit out of a bunch innocent civilians > just to get their rocks off. > > Frank > > On Jun 15, 8:41am, malte@webmore.com wrote: >> Subject: Re: Funny, but true... >> The whole thing has somewhat of a classical paradoxon. >> - Assume you are a person that wants to enter US-territory and >> belongs into the class of people that are covered by the >> questions (terrorist, prostitute, criminal, ... whatever). >> >> 1. If you tell the truth when asked this questions, you will be >> kicked off and are not allowed to enter US-territory. >> So you are forced to lie. >> 2. If you lie on the questions, you will be kicked off, when they >> find out you did not tell the truth; so you are forced to tell >> the truth. >> 3. Goto 1. >> >> Malte. >> >> On 15-Jun-98 Frank Pawlak wrote: >> > On Jun 13, 4:59pm, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: >> >> Subject: Funny, but true... >> >> How to get an American Visa ? >> >> >> >> I noted that american people coming to Brasil do not understand >> >> why they must get a visa. The reason is that the brasilian >> >> foreign politics is to give foreigners the same treatment brasilians >> >> receive in their country. Well, I want to take my vacations at >> >> Disneyland (who said I'm too old for that ? :) ), and the United >> >> States require a visa for me (Portuguese residing in Brazil) to enter >> >> its territory. >> >> >> >> The most laughable thing is the form I was required to fill. >> >> It is composed of some reasonable questions: Name, Address, >> >> Documentation, etc., but also has these question (in portuguese, >> >> the translation is mine): >> >> >> >> - Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? >> >> - Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA >> >> using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false >> >> information ? >> >> - Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, >> >> subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? >> >> - Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced >> >> persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, >> >> or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the >> >> Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? >> >> - Have you ever participated in a genocide ? >> >> - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? >> >> >> >> Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to >> >> answer yes to any of these questions ??? >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Jonny, >> > >> > I am not an official of the US Government, but I would suspect that the >> > answers >> > to these questions would enhance the ability to prosecute those that enter >> > the >> > USA and commit various crimes. It would allow prosecution and >> > deportations >> > based on entery under false pretense. That document you have to fill out > is >> > probable done under oath and is thus a sworn deposition. >> > >> > Basically it means that your leagal rights while here can depend on how >> > truthful the answers to those questions are. >> > >> > I am aware that Americans, citizens of the USA, are often not well liked >> > by >> > citizens of other countries, but, we are not all fools either. So if you >> > think >> > about the implications of answering those questions falsely, you may get a >> > clearer picture of why they are there. >> > >> > Frank >> > >> > Jonny >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student >> >> jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro >> >> >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >> >>-- End of excerpt from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis >> > >> > >> > >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >> >> ---------------------------------- >> E-Mail: malte@webmore.com >> Date: 15-Jun-98 >> Time: 08:23:17 >> ---------------------------------- >>-- End of excerpt from malte@webmore.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Malte Lance Date: 16-Jun-98 Time: 09:44:56 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 01:03:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA17641 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17467 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:02:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA20582; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:02:03 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980616110201.54724@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:02:01 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: internationalization References: <19980614051600.62407@techunix.technion.ac.il> <199806150326.UAA09328@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199806150326.UAA09328@usr05.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 03:26:05AM +0000 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry, I'll try to find some time to address your large message today; just a small nitpicker's datum meanwhile. What the heck, this *is* -chat, isn't it? ;) > Would you also dismiss Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" as not a > classic because it is also SF? Jules Verne's "20,000 leagues unders > the sea"? Carel Kapek's play "R.U.R.", from which we derive the word > "Robot"? The frequency of this misspelling (Kapek instead of Capek) has an interesting explanation. The unfortunate fact is that Capek's name is frequently misspelled, and even more frequently mispronounced, in most of the Western countries. The first sound of the name should really be pronounced as 'ch' in 'church'. Combine this with the fact that in Slavic languages 'a' is almost universally pronounced as something like 'u' in 'cut' (and never like 'a' in 'actor'), and you arrive at the correct pronunciation being as something like 'Chupek', stressed at the first syllable. Now, of course not every 'c' is pronounced like 'ch' in Czech. 'c' is pronounced like 'ch' when it has a special sign above it, which is similar to an inverted French circumflex. So, the name should, I believe, accurately be written like this: v Capek The Roman alphabet doesn't have such a sign, naturally, and the sign is almost always omitted, which then results in silly pronunciation mistakes. For example, ISO-8859-1 doesn't (I think) have such a sign, although Unicode certainly does. Another superb Czech writer is Milan Kundera (living in France for the last 23 years and writing in Czech and French), one of my most favourites among contemporary writers (he doesn't write SF though ;)). In one of his latest novels, 'Slowness', there's a touching and funny passage dedicated exactly to this intricate detail of Czech orthography. I liked it so much I typed it in so show to my online friends; I'm sending you a copy in private email, perhaps you'll like it. Sincerely, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 01:09:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19454 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:09:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from techunix.technion.ac.il (mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il [132.68.1.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19374 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:09:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mellon@techunix.technion.ac.il) Received: (from mellon@localhost) by techunix.technion.ac.il (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA21689; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:08:17 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <19980616110814.54710@techunix.technion.ac.il> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:08:14 +0300 From: Anatoly Vorobey To: Frank Pawlak Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (Fwd) [S.u.S.E. Linux] The Gospel according to a Hacker References: <980615222606.ZM3131@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <980615222606.ZM3131@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 10:26:06PM +0000 X-Disclaimer: I was young, I needed the money! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You, Frank Pawlak, were spotted writing this on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 10:26:06PM +0000: > > There was a man sent from MIT, whose name was Stallman. The > same came for a witness, to bear witness of the GNU. He said, "I am > the voice of one crying in the wilderness, `make straight the path of > the GNU,' as saith the EMACS." I recently took it upon myself to learn the original TECO (there are several clones for Unix and even one for DOS). I wonder what that makes me according to this Gospel ;) A particularly dangerous heretic? Have a good one, Anatoly. -- Anatoly Vorobey, mellon@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~mellon/ "Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 13:30:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17802 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17684 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id MAA00595; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:58:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:57:57 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net>; from Lee Cremeans on Sat, Jun 13, 1998 at 05:41:07PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this > moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East > (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid > Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are > Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the > Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not > doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). Don't believe that these questions are new. As I mentioned, we had them (+ communism) in 1957, and every time since that I've applied for a US visa, I have had to answer pretty much the same collection. Here's another one. My visa is valid until some time in 2001, but when I left for the US last week, I was given a green form I-94W (Visa Waiver Arrival/Departure Form). On the back of it, just above the signature, was this interesting statement: WAIVER OF RIGHTS: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of an immgration officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to contest, other that on the basis of an application for asylum, any action in deportation. My first reaction was to cross out this paragraph. I decided a little later that that would not be a good idea, and got the I-94 (white form, for people with visas). But what a waiver! Any immigration officer who didn't like the look of me could just send me back half way round the world, and I couldn't even complain. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 15:12:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04789 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:12:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04781 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-2-142.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.208]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id RAA25669; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:12:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA10798; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:12:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:12:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 15, 12:57pm) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Greg Lehey , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg, Just for comparison purposes, when you enter countries such as England, France, Germany, or your own country Australia? Are we in the US more or less paranoid? All of this makes me wonder if US intelligence isn't on to some new potential threats. Regards, Frank On Jun 15, 12:57pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is > > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this > > moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East > > (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid > > Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are > > Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the > > Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not > > doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). > > Don't believe that these questions are new. As I mentioned, we had > them (+ communism) in 1957, and every time since that I've applied for > a US visa, I have had to answer pretty much the same collection. > > Here's another one. My visa is valid until some time in 2001, but > when I left for the US last week, I was given a green form I-94W (Visa > Waiver Arrival/Departure Form). On the back of it, just above the > signature, was this interesting statement: > > WAIVER OF RIGHTS: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of > an immgration officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to > contest, other that on the basis of an application for asylum, any > action in deportation. > > My first reaction was to cross out this paragraph. I decided a little > later that that would not be a good idea, and got the I-94 (white > form, for people with visas). But what a waiver! Any immigration > officer who didn't like the look of me could just send me back half > way round the world, and I couldn't even complain. > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 15:24:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07155 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:24:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07150 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:24:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-2-142.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.208]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id RAA04386; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:24:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA10809; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:24:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980616222432.ZM10808@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:24:32 +0000 In-Reply-To: Malte Lance "Re: Funny, but true..." (Jun 16, 9:57am) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: malte@webmore.com, Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Funny, but true... Cc: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Malte, You are right, it is a paradox, or as some of us say; it puts you between a rock and a hard spot. Because of my penchant to be professorial, I think that on my first reading I missed your point. I didn't find anything offensive in your previous mail, so no apologgies are necessary. Frank On Jun 16, 9:57am, Malte Lance wrote: > Subject: Re: Funny, but true... > Frank, > > you are right !!! > I were looking through abstract philosophical eyes on a feature of real life. > If my previous mail was offending to you, then please take my apologize. > > Malte. > > On 16-Jun-98 Frank Pawlak wrote: > > Paradox? Not so sure that it is. They case you make is true. No matter how > > the questions are answered, if you are an undesirable alien you are either > > not > > admitted or kicked out. That is how things should be. In effect we already > > have more than our quota of naive terrorists. prostitutes, and other assorted > > criminals without importing any more. The primary function of a central > > government is to protect its' citizens from those individuals or groups that > > wish us harm. > > > > The end result is that if you are a citizen of a foreign country, and don't > > belong to any of those classes of people, you are entirely welcome to enter, > > visit, and enjoy the USA. If you are a person of such stature that has a > > problem truthfully answering those questions, I'm not so sure that I'd want > > you > > here either. Be it paradoxical or not, mission acomplished. > > > > Whether or not the State Department is paranoid or not, personally I'd prefer > > that they were a little paranoid. As I stated, there are citizens of other > > countries, rightly or wrongly, that don't hold Americans or the USA in high > > esteem. We really don't need outsiders doing World Trade Center bombings or > > opening up with an AK47 and hosing the shit out of a bunch innocent civilians > > just to get their rocks off. > > > > Frank > > > > On Jun 15, 8:41am, malte@webmore.com wrote: > >> Subject: Re: Funny, but true... > >> The whole thing has somewhat of a classical paradoxon. > >> - Assume you are a person that wants to enter US-territory and > >> belongs into the class of people that are covered by the > >> questions (terrorist, prostitute, criminal, ... whatever). > >> > >> 1. If you tell the truth when asked this questions, you will be > >> kicked off and are not allowed to enter US-territory. > >> So you are forced to lie. > >> 2. If you lie on the questions, you will be kicked off, when they > >> find out you did not tell the truth; so you are forced to tell > >> the truth. > >> 3. Goto 1. > >> > >> Malte. > >> > >> On 15-Jun-98 Frank Pawlak wrote: > >> > On Jun 13, 4:59pm, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis wrote: > >> >> Subject: Funny, but true... > >> >> How to get an American Visa ? > >> >> > >> >> I noted that american people coming to Brasil do not understand > >> >> why they must get a visa. The reason is that the brasilian > >> >> foreign politics is to give foreigners the same treatment brasilians > >> >> receive in their country. Well, I want to take my vacations at > >> >> Disneyland (who said I'm too old for that ? :) ), and the United > >> >> States require a visa for me (Portuguese residing in Brazil) to enter > >> >> its territory. > >> >> > >> >> The most laughable thing is the form I was required to fill. > >> >> It is composed of some reasonable questions: Name, Address, > >> >> Documentation, etc., but also has these question (in portuguese, > >> >> the translation is mine): > >> >> > >> >> - Have you ever traded drugs or practiced prostitution ? > >> >> - Have ever tried to get into USA or help others to get into USA > >> >> using a false visa, or any other kind of fraud or false > >> >> information ? > >> >> - Do you intend to get into USA to practice export control violations, > >> >> subversive or terrorist activities, or with any ilegal objective ? > >> >> - Have you ever ordered, incited, helped or in any way practiced > >> >> persecution of any person because of his race, religion, nationality, > >> >> or politic beliefs, under the direct or indirect command of the > >> >> Nazi German Government or any Government allied with it ? > >> >> - Have you ever participated in a genocide ? > >> >> - Are you a member or representative of a terrorist organization ? > >> >> > >> >> Do these guys really expect some real terrorist or similar to > >> >> answer yes to any of these questions ??? > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > Jonny, > >> > > >> > I am not an official of the US Government, but I would suspect that the > >> > answers > >> > to these questions would enhance the ability to prosecute those that enter > >> > the > >> > USA and commit various crimes. It would allow prosecution and > >> > deportations > >> > based on entery under false pretense. That document you have to fill out > > is > >> > probable done under oath and is thus a sworn deposition. > >> > > >> > Basically it means that your leagal rights while here can depend on how > >> > truthful the answers to those questions are. > >> > > >> > I am aware that Americans, citizens of the USA, are often not well liked > >> > by > >> > citizens of other countries, but, we are not all fools either. So if you > >> > think > >> > about the implications of answering those questions falsely, you may get a > >> > clearer picture of why they are there. > >> > > >> > Frank > >> > > >> > Jonny > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student > >> >> jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro > >> >> > >> >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> >> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > >> >>-- End of excerpt from Joao Carlos Mendes Luis > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > >> > >> ---------------------------------- > >> E-Mail: malte@webmore.com > >> Date: 15-Jun-98 > >> Time: 08:23:17 > >> ---------------------------------- > >>-- End of excerpt from malte@webmore.com > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > ---------------------------------- > E-Mail: Malte Lance > Date: 16-Jun-98 > Time: 09:44:56 > ---------------------------------- >-- End of excerpt from Malte Lance To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 17:13:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26068 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA26024 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id SAA02286; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:13:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:13:07 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:12:13PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 June 1998 at 22:12:13 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > On Jun 15, 12:57pm, Greg Lehey wrote: >> Subject: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) >> On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: >> >> > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is >> > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this >> > moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East >> > (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid >> > Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are >> > Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the >> > Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not >> > doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). >> >> Don't believe that these questions are new. As I mentioned, we had >> them (+ communism) in 1957, and every time since that I've applied for >> a US visa, I have had to answer pretty much the same collection. >> >> Here's another one. My visa is valid until some time in 2001, but >> when I left for the US last week, I was given a green form I-94W (Visa >> Waiver Arrival/Departure Form). On the back of it, just above the >> signature, was this interesting statement: >> >> WAIVER OF RIGHTS: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of >> an immgration officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to >> contest, other that on the basis of an application for asylum, any >> action in deportation. >> >> My first reaction was to cross out this paragraph. I decided a little >> later that that would not be a good idea, and got the I-94 (white >> form, for people with visas). But what a waiver! Any immigration >> officer who didn't like the look of me could just send me back half >> way round the world, and I couldn't even complain. > > Just for comparison purposes, when you enter countries such as England, France, > Germany, or your own country Australia? Are we in the US more or less > paranoid? The US is particularly unusual in its treatment of foreigners. I haven't seen questions or waivers like this in any other country. The INS people also seem to have been trained to be nasty, a trait shared only by the English immigration people. In Europe, you usually don't need a visa, and any inspection is pretty cursory. In Asia, you will need a landing card which concentrates normally on things they could more easily get out of your passport. In some countries you'll need a visa (Australia is one of them), but most don't worry any more. China and India still need visas, and some people (including Australians, but excluding US citizens) need a visa for Japan. > All of this makes me wonder if US intelligence isn't on to some new > potential threats. Recall what I said above. I know it's been like this for at least 40 years. I suspect it grew out of the large immigration floods of the last century. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 17:49:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic20.pm01.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02617 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:49:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id RAA18595; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980616174825.A18504@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:48:25 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Greg Lehey , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:57:57PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:57:57PM -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is > > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this > > moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East > > (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid > > Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are > > Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the > > Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not > > doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). > > Don't believe that these questions are new. As I mentioned, we had > them (+ communism) in 1957, and every time since that I've applied for > a US visa, I have had to answer pretty much the same collection. > > Here's another one. My visa is valid until some time in 2001, but > when I left for the US last week, I was given a green form I-94W (Visa > Waiver Arrival/Departure Form). On the back of it, just above the > signature, was this interesting statement: > > WAIVER OF RIGHTS: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of > an immgration officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to > contest, other that on the basis of an application for asylum, any > action in deportation. > > My first reaction was to cross out this paragraph. I decided a little > later that that would not be a good idea, and got the I-94 (white > form, for people with visas). But what a waiver! Any immigration > officer who didn't like the look of me could just send me back half > way round the world, and I couldn't even complain. > The above paragraph is the result of the "Immigration Reform while Saving the Children" act recently passed by that collection of fascists in congress. Sorry, Greg, but things are going to get much worse before it gets any better. A large section of this country is unhappy because the amerika of today does not match the "Leave it to Beaver" amerika they think they should be living in. These people are living in a dream world and are busy finding fault in every thing, including the stars, instead of themselves. Hence, the return of the "No Nothings". Sigh! :-( Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 18:57:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12014 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:57:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12006 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:57:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-1-21.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.138.21]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id UAA16709; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:56:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id UAA11170; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:56:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980617015652.ZM11169@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:56:52 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 16, 6:13pm) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Greg Lehey , Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 16, 6:13pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > On Tue, 16 June 1998 at 22:12:13 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > On Jun 15, 12:57pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Subject: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > >> On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >> > >> > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is > >> > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this > >> > moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East > >> > (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid > >> > Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are > >> > Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the > >> > Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not > >> > doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). > >> > >> Don't believe that these questions are new. As I mentioned, we had > >> them (+ communism) in 1957, and every time since that I've applied for > >> a US visa, I have had to answer pretty much the same collection. > >> > >> Here's another one. My visa is valid until some time in 2001, but > >> when I left for the US last week, I was given a green form I-94W (Visa > >> Waiver Arrival/Departure Form). On the back of it, just above the > >> signature, was this interesting statement: > >> > >> WAIVER OF RIGHTS: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of > >> an immgration officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to > >> contest, other that on the basis of an application for asylum, any > >> action in deportation. > >> > >> My first reaction was to cross out this paragraph. I decided a little > >> later that that would not be a good idea, and got the I-94 (white > >> form, for people with visas). But what a waiver! Any immigration > >> officer who didn't like the look of me could just send me back half > >> way round the world, and I couldn't even complain. > > > > Just for comparison purposes, when you enter countries such as England, France, > > Germany, or your own country Australia? Are we in the US more or less > > paranoid? > > The US is particularly unusual in its treatment of foreigners. I > haven't seen questions or waivers like this in any other country. The > INS people also seem to have been trained to be nasty, a trait shared > only by the English immigration people. Probably due to the slight illegal alien problem that we have here. ;-) On a lighter side, I could tell a story about meeting some members of the Australian Army and mistaking them for British. That's an error I will never make again. >In Europe, you usually don't > need a visa, and any inspection is pretty cursory. In Asia, you will > need a landing card which concentrates normally on things they could > more easily get out of your passport. In some countries you'll need a > visa (Australia is one of them), but most don't worry any more. China > and India still need visas, and some people (including Australians, > but excluding US citizens) need a visa for Japan. The American customs officers are not even nice to Americans, judging from personal experience. Several years ago I had the pleasure of visiting Canada to attend a computer training class. On the airliner they passed out a card to be filled out to enter Canada, which I rolled-up and put into my pocket. When I got to Canadian customs, they took it all very well, and gave this silly American a pen and patiently waited while I completed the information requested on the card, and was then on my way. Upon returinig to the US it was a whole different issue with US customs. Firstly, I couldn't get through the metal detector, it kept sounding the alarm. So they used a wand on me and proceeded to be vary nasty about what was causing the problem. Turns out that the Canadian coins in my pants pocket was the problem, but it doesn't end there. They gave me a bad time about everything they could conceive of. Bringing liquor into the US, of which I didn't have a drop, to why my luggage was so heavy. My luggage was full of books and other items from the class. Makes one wonder at times what others must think when they visit here. > > Recall what I said above. I know it's been like this for at least 40 > years. I suspect it grew out of the large immigration floods of the > last century. > I had forgotten about this. In the 50's we had a lot of politicians looking for communists behind every lamp post and under every bed. A lot of elections were won using that stance. In general the 1950's were good years here, with the exceptions of that and civil rights. Frank > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 19:18:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15875 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:18:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15870 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-1-21.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.138.21]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA19556; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:18:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA11271; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:18:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980617021843.ZM11270@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 02:18:42 +0000 In-Reply-To: Josef Grosch "Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 16, 5:48pm) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <19980616174825.A18504@mooseriver.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com, Greg Lehey , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 16, 5:48pm, Josef Grosch wrote: > Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 12:57:57PM -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > > > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is > > > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this > > > moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East > > > (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid > > > Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are > > > Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the > > > Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not > > > doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). > > > > Don't believe that these questions are new. As I mentioned, we had > > them (+ communism) in 1957, and every time since that I've applied for > > a US visa, I have had to answer pretty much the same collection. > > > > Here's another one. My visa is valid until some time in 2001, but > > when I left for the US last week, I was given a green form I-94W (Visa > > Waiver Arrival/Departure Form). On the back of it, just above the > > signature, was this interesting statement: > > > > WAIVER OF RIGHTS: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of > > an immgration officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to > > contest, other that on the basis of an application for asylum, any > > action in deportation. > > > > My first reaction was to cross out this paragraph. I decided a little > > later that that would not be a good idea, and got the I-94 (white > > form, for people with visas). But what a waiver! Any immigration > > officer who didn't like the look of me could just send me back half > > way round the world, and I couldn't even complain. > > > > The above paragraph is the result of the "Immigration Reform while Saving > the Children" act recently passed by that collection of fascists in > congress. Sorry, Greg, but things are going to get much worse before it > gets any better. A large section of this country is unhappy because the > amerika of today does not match the "Leave it to Beaver" amerika they think > they should be living in. These people are living in a dream world and are > busy finding fault in every thing, including the stars, instead of > themselves. Hence, the return of the "No Nothings". Sigh! :-( > > > Josef > amerika! Now there is something which I haven't seen in many years. Takes me back to those heady days of hippies, and make love not war. Frank > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Josef Grosch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 20:22:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24815 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (root@client-151-197-112-18.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24781 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA00475; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:07:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@localhost.dyn.ml.org) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:07:45 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Frank Pawlak cc: Greg Lehey , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > All of this makes me wonder if US intelligence isn't on to some new potential > threats. You mean they have isolated and eliminated the Phil Zimmerman Cryptography threat and now want something new? The sky must be falling.... Maybe Australia is planning an invasion for July 4th. We had better watch who they are sending here. Just another in a string of paranoia things that the US Government does. J > Regards, > Frank > > On Jun 15, 12:57pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Subject: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > > On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > > > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is > > > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this > > > moment, after all the attacks on US installations in the Middle East > > > (and the NYC World Trade Center bombing here 5 years ago) by rabid > > > Islam fundamentalists...and the Nazi thing is because there are > > > Nazis hiding out in South America, apparently, that avoided the > > > Nuremburg trials in 1946 (most are very old now, and I would not > > > doubt they'd all be dead in 10 years). > > > > Don't believe that these questions are new. As I mentioned, we had > > them (+ communism) in 1957, and every time since that I've applied for > > a US visa, I have had to answer pretty much the same collection. > > > > Here's another one. My visa is valid until some time in 2001, but > > when I left for the US last week, I was given a green form I-94W (Visa > > Waiver Arrival/Departure Form). On the back of it, just above the > > signature, was this interesting statement: > > > > WAIVER OF RIGHTS: I hereby waive any rights to review or appeal of > > an immgration officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to > > contest, other that on the basis of an application for asylum, any > > action in deportation. > > > > My first reaction was to cross out this paragraph. I decided a little > > later that that would not be a good idea, and got the I-94 (white > > form, for people with visas). But what a waiver! Any immigration > > officer who didn't like the look of me could just send me back half > > way round the world, and I couldn't even complain. > > > > Greg > > -- > > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 20:28:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25859 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25854 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:28:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA10799; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:28:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: ``Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD'' Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's a bit on the rah-rah side, but nevertheless exciting to anticipate what Apple's OS strategy can do for FreeBSD. http://www.rhapsodyos.com/editorial/stone/ST00014.html -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 21:12:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02624 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA02613 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:12:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 30546 invoked from network); 17 Jun 1998 04:12:01 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 17 Jun 1998 04:12:01 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-171.realtime.net [205.238.146.171]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA10486; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:11:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:19:09 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: Greg Lehey cc: Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is an international school for immigration officials. Read on. On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tue, 16 June 1998 at 22:12:13 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > On Jun 15, 12:57pm, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Subject: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > >> On Sat, 13 June 1998 at 17:41:07 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >> > >> > The root of this, though, is the fact that the State Department is > >> > paranoid, very paranoid. I'm sure they have some right to be at this > The US is particularly unusual in its treatment of foreigners. I > haven't seen questions or waivers like this in any other country. The > INS people also seem to have been trained to be nasty, a trait shared > only by the English immigration people. In Europe, you usually don't > need a visa, and any inspection is pretty cursory. In Asia, you will > need a landing card which concentrates normally on things they could > more easily get out of your passport. In some countries you'll need a > visa (Australia is one of them), but most don't worry any more. China > and India still need visas, and some people (including Australians, > but excluding US citizens) need a visa for Japan. Umm... At the risk of dating myself, once when traveling to Japan an aquaintance of mine was on the plane as well. Then, you did need a visa, and Julius' had expired the day before, unbeknownst to him. The Japanese officer was plesant but implacable, Julius would have to go, to anywhere. After much discussion, Julius tried his best shot. He drew himself up to full splendiferousness, and announced that he _would_ leave and so would the $20 million he was about to spend on machine tools. To which the immigration officer smiled and replied, "That'll be fine." It was funny, but they did let him stay 24 hours. :-) > > All of this makes me wonder if US intelligence isn't on to some new > > potential threats. No, not threats, just something... Heh, Heh... John > Recall what I said above. I know it's been like this for at least 40 > years. I suspect it grew out of the large immigration floods of the > last century. > > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 21:41:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05835 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:41:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05826 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA10417; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:41:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199806170441.OAA10417@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: from James at "Jun 16, 98 10:07:45 pm" To: higginsj@iname.com Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:41:23 +1000 (EST) Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James wrote: > Maybe Australia is planning an invasion for July 4th. We had better watch > who they are sending here. Not this year, I'm afraid, and a little disappointed because it would give CNN something funny to report. I can just imagine our Navy trying to remember who has the keys to start the boat (we only have one), and then turning up a bit late on the beaches of California and trying to get anybody to take them seriously. We're a bit low on people to send this year 'cause we still have 30 people over near Iraq trying to look frightening. So we'd need you to let us have them back before we can seriously make any attempt at invading the U.S. We can't really afford to invade now anyway with our dollar in it's current state. We think we have the solution to this: we'll become a third world country so the World Bank gives us billions of your dollars (since ours are no good), then we'll come and invade. OK? -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 22:16:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09434 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09429 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:16:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs239-1.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.156]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id WAA16478; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:15:48 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980616221819.00811210@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:18:19 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis From: don morrison Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> References: <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I can think of one other country which a bit nasty with foreigners. In Japan, I hear, if you're a foreign resident you must be fingerprinted and carry your fingerprinted identification with you at all times. Also, it takes a foreign merchant about two to three days to get goods checked through customs while in the U.S. it can take as little as a half hour...The first piece of information I heard from a personal account, the second from a newspaper; can anyone tell me if these pieces of information are incorrect? (I don't want to offend anyone from Japan here...) >The US is particularly unusual in its treatment of foreigners. I >haven't seen questions or waivers like this in any other country. The >INS people also seem to have been trained to be nasty, a trait shared >only by the English immigration people. In Europe, you usually don't >need a visa, and any inspection is pretty cursory. In Asia, you will >need a landing card which concentrates normally on things they could >more easily get out of your passport. In some countries you'll need a >visa (Australia is one of them), but most don't worry any more. China >and India still need visas, and some people (including Australians, >but excluding US citizens) need a visa for Japan. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 22:25:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10258 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10251 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (harconia-2-84.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.212]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id AAA28156; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:25:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id AAA11630; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:25:44 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980617052543.ZM11629@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:25:43 +0000 In-Reply-To: John Birrell "Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 17, 2:41pm) References: <199806170441.OAA10417@cimlogic.com.au> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: John Birrell , higginsj@iname.com Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: fpawlak@execpc.com, grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like that. My better half is British and has to listen to that stuff all the time. Somehow they have a slightly different version of US history over there. Best wishes, Frank On Jun 17, 2:41pm, John Birrell wrote: > Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > James wrote: > > Maybe Australia is planning an invasion for July 4th. We had better watch > > who they are sending here. > > Not this year, I'm afraid, and a little disappointed because it would > give CNN something funny to report. I can just imagine our Navy trying > to remember who has the keys to start the boat (we only have one), and > then turning up a bit late on the beaches of California and trying to > get anybody to take them seriously. > > We're a bit low on people to send this year 'cause we still have 30 > people over near Iraq trying to look frightening. So we'd need you > to let us have them back before we can seriously make any attempt at > invading the U.S. > > We can't really afford to invade now anyway with our dollar in it's > current state. We think we have the solution to this: we'll become a > third world country so the World Bank gives us billions of your dollars > (since ours are no good), then we'll come and invade. OK? > > -- > John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ > CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 >-- End of excerpt from John Birrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 22:40:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:40:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12073 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA10627; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:44:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199806170544.PAA10627@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <980617052543.ZM11629@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "Jun 17, 98 05:25:43 am" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:44:40 +1000 (EST) Cc: jb@cimlogic.com.au, higginsj@iname.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved > to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a > holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a > national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early > settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like that. Ah yes, we celebrate it here too, for fear that _you_ might invade us. 8-) We even had a holiday last week for the Queen's birthday just in case she might be planning to invade - which is not out of the question since we're trying to become a republic. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jun 16 23:12:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from css.tuu.utas.edu.au (css.tuu.utas.edu.au [131.217.115.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15515 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iaint@css.tuu.utas.edu.au) Received: from localhost (iaint@localhost) by css.tuu.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06455 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:11:48 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:11:48 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <199806170441.OAA10417@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John Birrell wrote: > James wrote: > > Maybe Australia is planning an invasion for July 4th. We had better watch > > who they are sending here. > > Not this year, I'm afraid, and a little disappointed because it would > give CNN something funny to report. I can just imagine our Navy trying > to remember who has the keys to start the boat (we only have one), and > then turning up a bit late on the beaches of California and trying to > get anybody to take them seriously. > What was it that someone (Bronwyn Bishop[1]) I think said? The new frigates were out of date, the Collins Class submarines beset with technical difficulties, and our landing boat just wouldn't work. Perhaps we need to get Bob Clifford to build some more cats[2], we may at least then be able to get there quickly. > We can't really afford to invade now anyway with our dollar in it's > current state. We think we have the solution to this: we'll become a > third world country so the World Bank gives us billions of your dollars > (since ours are no good), then we'll come and invade. OK? > Or we could just give guns to all the people who voted for One Nation on Saturday, and tell them that the American Wheat subsidies are killing the country.[Iain runs and hides] Iain [1] Minister for Defense Personel or somesuch [2] Apparently the US military may have been interested in them for equipment carrying.[3] [3] As you can see by the footnotes, I've been reading too much rec.humor.oracle.d recently (but not alt.sysadmin.recovery) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 00:07:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22409 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22389 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA10821; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:12:59 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199806170712.RAA10821@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: from Iain Templeton at "Jun 17, 98 04:11:48 pm" To: iaint@css.tuu.utas.edu.au (Iain Templeton) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:12:59 +1000 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Iain Templeton wrote: > Or we could just give guns to all the people who voted for One Nation on > Saturday, and tell them that the American Wheat subsidies are killing the > country.[Iain runs and hides] I thought that a One Nation government would _give_ out guns with their low interest loans for all the ordinary people. The problem we'll have is pointing out to them which ones are americans, though. We might have to paint all americans red just in case all those One Nation supporters aren't bright enough to differentiate. Now _I_ better run and hide... not under the bed because they're looking there. After all, that's where all the foreigners are, isn't it? [ Do I hear someone point out that I'm not aboriginal, so that makes me technically a foreigners too? ] -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 01:09:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29271 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:09:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29241 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:08:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA17335; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:08:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980617180813.64169@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:08:13 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: John Birrell Cc: Iain Templeton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806170712.RAA10821@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199806170712.RAA10821@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 05:12:59PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 05:12:59PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Iain Templeton wrote: > > Or we could just give guns to all the people who voted for One Nation on > > Saturday, and tell them that the American Wheat subsidies are killing the > > country.[Iain runs and hides] > > I thought that a One Nation government would _give_ out guns with their > low interest loans for all the ordinary people. The problem we'll > have is pointing out to them which ones are americans, though. We might > have to paint all americans red just in case all those One Nation supporters > aren't bright enough to differentiate. Now _I_ better run and hide... not > under the bed because they're looking there. After all, that's where all > the foreigners are, isn't it? > > [ Do I hear someone point out that I'm not aboriginal, so that makes me > technically a foreigners too? ] Believe me, in Queensland you're safer as a foreigner. Paint your hair red and look dumb and confused whenever numbers are mentioned, and leave out a syllable or two when you say Australia. Spell it how you say it for good measure. You might be accepted as a supporter. Then you'll only have to worry about the 75% who didn't vote for her. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 03:37:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA19082 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ren.dtir.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@ns.dtir.qld.gov.au [203.108.138.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA19072 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 03:37:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au; id UAA25479; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:36:57 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.dtir.qld.gov.au via smap (3.2) id xma025477; Wed, 17 Jun 98 20:36:44 +1000 Received: from atlas.dtir.qld.gov.au (atlas.dtir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24615; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:36:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au (nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02440; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:36:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au (localhost.dtir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10953; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:36:41 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199806171036.UAA10953@nymph.dtir.qld.gov.au> To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <19980617180813.64169@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <19980617180813.64169@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:08:13 +1000" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:36:41 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 17th June 1998, Sue Blake wrote: >On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 05:12:59PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: >> Iain Templeton wrote: >> > Or we could just give guns to all the people who voted for One Nation on >> > Saturday, and tell them that the American Wheat subsidies are killing the >> > country.[Iain runs and hides] >> >> I thought that a One Nation government would _give_ out guns with their >> low interest loans for all the ordinary people. The problem we'll >> have is pointing out to them which ones are americans, though. We might >> have to paint all americans red just in case all those One Nation supporters >> aren't bright enough to differentiate. Now _I_ better run and hide... not >> under the bed because they're looking there. After all, that's where all >> the foreigners are, isn't it? >> >> [ Do I hear someone point out that I'm not aboriginal, so that makes me >> technically a foreigners too? ] > >Believe me, in Queensland you're safer as a foreigner. Paint your hair >red and look dumb and confused whenever numbers are mentioned, and leave >out a syllable or two when you say Australia. Spell it how you say it for >good measure. You might be accepted as a supporter. Then you'll only have >to worry about the 75% who didn't vote for her. Wow! Queensland politics makes it to the Hallowed Halls of freebsd-chat! What a night, election night, as I watched the reactions of a bunch of political analysts and politicians as the early counts came in. Their initial "there is a camera in front of me and I have to be jolly" enthusiasm draining away and that sort of stunned animal caught in the headlights expression settling in on their faces. After a while they took a perverse glee in pointing to their traditional opposition counterparts and claiming "at least you can't take any comfort from this result". Too bloody right. At the time I was imagining all our trading partners reading the newspaper the next day over their morning noodles (for shock of shocks, we do trade with a lot of asians), and if they managed to speak while choking on their breakfast, calling their offices and saying "Those Queenslanders! They're a bunch of maniacs! Stop sending stuff there right now!" Todays headlines are about trading partners and investors cancelling orders and projects. Funny old world. Who'd have thought... Stephen. ObComputer: the tallies were/are available on the web at www.qld.gov.au and updated semi-real-time. Amusingly my Netscape 4.04 screwed up the tables unless I set the font encoding to utf-8. I invite you to check for yourself whether http://www.ecq.qld.gov.au/ecq/summary/summary51.html has a clear or a garbled "Percentage Graph". Have I mentioned that it's a funny old world? Disclaimer: My employer has no opinion on this matter, but I do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 04:45:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02783 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 04:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA02771 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 04:45:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (root@[10.1.140.1]) by zwei with ESMTP id NAA23504; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:44:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (pc8811.gud.siemens.at [195.3.22.159]) by pc8811.gud.siemens.at (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27523; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:43:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <358532BA.756542A9@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:43:33 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Siemens Austria AG From: Marino Ladavac To: Stuart Henderson Subject: Re: [I] internationalization Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Jun-98 Stuart Henderson wrote: > Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >> To get this back to something even *remotely* on topic... > > I think -chat should borrow alt.fan.pratchett's coding system so we > don't have to :) > Does this suit you better? /Marino To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 05:06:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06840 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:06:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-18.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06827 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 05:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA01554; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:05:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:05:02 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: John Birrell cc: higginsj@iname.com, fpawlak@execpc.com, grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <199806170441.OAA10417@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John Birrell wrote: > James wrote: > > Maybe Australia is planning an invasion for July 4th. We had better watch > > who they are sending here. > > Not this year, I'm afraid, and a little disappointed because it would > give CNN something funny to report. I can just imagine our Navy trying > to remember who has the keys to start the boat (we only have one), and > then turning up a bit late on the beaches of California and trying to > get anybody to take them seriously. > > We're a bit low on people to send this year 'cause we still have 30 > people over near Iraq trying to look frightening. So we'd need you > to let us have them back before we can seriously make any attempt at > invading the U.S. > > We can't really afford to invade now anyway with our dollar in it's > current state. We think we have the solution to this: we'll become a > third world country so the World Bank gives us billions of your dollars > (since ours are no good), then we'll come and invade. OK? Sounds like a good plan. tell me when so I can go to California and watch the festivities. : ) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 06:15:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19729 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19719 for chat; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:15:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806171315.GAA19719@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: vmailer To: chat Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:15:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yesterday i converted chat from vmailer back to sendmail. bounce mail was not going where i want. i have just converted it back....i am doing this correctly, none of you should notice anything, unless you start reading all the headers ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 08:28:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08345 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:28:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08287 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:27:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27912; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:27:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3587E069.488410B3@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:27:37 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> <980617015652.ZM11169@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > I had forgotten about this. In the 50's we had a lot of politicians looking > for communists behind every lamp post and under every bed. A lot of elections > were won using that stance. In general the 1950's were good years here, with > the exceptions of that and civil rights. Except the government was systematically destroying "America-as-it-was" and creating the suburban welfare state we now enjoy. Of coure in the 1950's it was far too early to see the damage they had done. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 08:42:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11288 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:42:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11226 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:41:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-2-92.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.134.220]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id KAA13182; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:41:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA12470; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:41:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980617154140.ZM12469@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:41:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters "Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 17, 9:27am) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> <980617015652.ZM11169@darkstar.connect.com> <3587E069.488410B3@softweyr.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 17, 9:27am, Wes Peters wrote: > Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > I had forgotten about this. In the 50's we had a lot of politicians looking > > for communists behind every lamp post and under every bed. A lot of elections > > were won using that stance. In general the 1950's were good years here, with > > the exceptions of that and civil rights. > > Except the government was systematically destroying "America-as-it-was" and > creating the suburban welfare state we now enjoy. Of coure in the 1950's > it was far too early to see the damage they had done. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com >-- End of excerpt from Wes Peters I take it that you are referring to the systematic way that the rich got richer and the poor got poorer, the disappearance of the middle class through tax law changes? I agree "America today" is not "America-as it was" then. sigh! Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 08:59:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:59:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13837 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:59:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA00510; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:42:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980617104203.58315@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:42:03 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake , John Birrell Cc: Iain Templeton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806170712.RAA10821@cimlogic.com.au> <19980617180813.64169@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19980617180813.64169@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:08:13PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 June 1998 at 18:08:13 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 05:12:59PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: >> Iain Templeton wrote: >>> Or we could just give guns to all the people who voted for One Nation on >>> Saturday, and tell them that the American Wheat subsidies are killing the >>> country.[Iain runs and hides] >> >> I thought that a One Nation government would _give_ out guns with their >> low interest loans for all the ordinary people. The problem we'll >> have is pointing out to them which ones are americans, though. We might >> have to paint all americans red just in case all those One Nation supporters >> aren't bright enough to differentiate. Now _I_ better run and hide... not >> under the bed because they're looking there. After all, that's where all >> the foreigners are, isn't it? >> >>> Do I hear someone point out that I'm not aboriginal, so that makes me >> technically a foreigners too? ] > > Believe me, in Queensland you're safer as a foreigner. Paint your hair > red and look dumb and confused whenever numbers are mentioned, and leave > out a syllable or two when you say Australia. Spell it how you say it for > good measure. You might be accepted as a supporter. Then you'll only have > to worry about the 75% who didn't vote for her. OK, for the sake of us expatriates, how did the election go? Are they moving the Queensland parliament to a fish and chip shop? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 09:00:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14179 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:00:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14155 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:00:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA00523; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:49:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980617104907.02051@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:49:07 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: don morrison , Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> <3.0.5.32.19980616221819.00811210@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980616221819.00811210@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu>; from don morrison on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 10:18:19PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 June 1998 at 22:18:19 -0700, don morrison wrote: > >> The US is particularly unusual in its treatment of foreigners. I >> haven't seen questions or waivers like this in any other country. The >> INS people also seem to have been trained to be nasty, a trait shared >> only by the English immigration people. In Europe, you usually don't >> need a visa, and any inspection is pretty cursory. In Asia, you will >> need a landing card which concentrates normally on things they could >> more easily get out of your passport. In some countries you'll need a >> visa (Australia is one of them), but most don't worry any more. China >> and India still need visas, and some people (including Australians, >> but excluding US citizens) need a visa for Japan. > > Well, I can think of one other country which a bit nasty with foreigners. > In Japan, I hear, if you're a foreign resident you must be fingerprinted > and carry your fingerprinted identification with you at all times. They probably got that idea from the US. I forgot that we also had to be fingerprinted to get our 1957 US visa. > Also, it takes a foreign merchant about two to three days to get > goods checked through customs while in the U.S. it can take as > little as a half hour...The first piece of information I heard from > a personal account, the second from a newspaper; can anyone tell me > if these pieces of information are incorrect? (I don't want to > offend anyone from Japan here...) I don't have any direct experience of that in Japan, but since I am surrounded by hordes of Japanese who just happen to be planning to send a whole lot of stuff to Japan tomorrow, I asked them. They say that the total transport time (from Austin TX to Tennoz in Tokyo) is between 5 and 7 calendar days. That would suggest that the customs clearance takes less than that. On the other hand, I've seen problems clearing customs in most countries, including the US, so I don't doubt your account, but I don't think it's typical. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 09:01:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14306 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:01:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14298 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:01:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA00490; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:39:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980617103930.47696@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:39:30 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Frank Pawlak , John Birrell , higginsj@iname.com Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806170441.OAA10417@cimlogic.com.au> <980617052543.ZM11629@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <980617052543.ZM11629@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 05:25:43AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 June 1998 at 5:25:43 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved > to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a > holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a > national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early > settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like > that. It was my understanding that the British were the last people to try to spoil your 4th July celebrations, and that's why you treated them so rudely. Maybe that's the real background of the reception we all get from the INS. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 09:06:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15053 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:06:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA17301; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:05:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16982; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806171605.JAA16982@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: ``Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD'' In-Reply-To: from Brian Tao at "Jun 16, 98 11:28:30 pm" To: taob@risc.org (Brian Tao) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brian Tao: > It's a bit on the rah-rah side, but nevertheless exciting to > anticipate what Apple's OS strategy can do for FreeBSD. > > http://www.rhapsodyos.com/editorial/stone/ST00014.html > > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > Also, what we can do for them. ...Interesting. gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 09:13:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA16237 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:13:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost2.u.washington.edu (mailhost2.u.washington.edu [140.142.33.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16215 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from don (cs238-15.student.washington.edu [140.142.173.153]) by mailhost2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with SMTP id JAA25286; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:12:43 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980617091513.0081b100@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> X-Sender: dmorrisn@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:15:13 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis From: don morrison Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980617104907.02051@papillon.lemis.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980616221819.00811210@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> <19980616181307.09604@papillon.lemis.com> <3.0.5.32.19980616221819.00811210@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >They probably got that idea from the US. I forgot that we also had to >be fingerprinted to get our 1957 US visa. heh Yes, and will likely cite it if we ever complain too loudly. :) >I don't have any direct experience of that in Japan, but since I am >surrounded by hordes of Japanese who just happen to be planning to >send a whole lot of stuff to Japan tomorrow, I asked them. They say >that the total transport time (from Austin TX to Tennoz in Tokyo) is >between 5 and 7 calendar days. That would suggest that the customs >clearance takes less than that. On the other hand, I've seen problems Well, but they aren't foreign merchants. (Or are they?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 09:36:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20846 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20772 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA18206; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:35:17 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: don morrison cc: Greg Lehey , Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980617091513.0081b100@dmorrisn.deskmail.washington.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Off the southern tip of Florida lie a string of islands, known as the Florida Keys, with one road approximately 150 miles long that terminates in Key West. Key West is the southern most point in the continental US and 90 miles from Cuba. Tourism is the primary industry in the Keys. One holiday weekend in the early 1980's Immigration set up what they called a checkpoint (in actuality a roadblock) at the two points where the road connects to the mainland. Everyone was required to present identification to pass. Rumor had it that two of the individuals caught in the 5+ hour delay that was created were the wife and son of the areas congress critter. Two days latter the head of the INS office in Miami was replaced. The stunt was never repeated. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 11:25:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07916 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07909; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from EXIT10 (i485-gw.cetlink.net [209.198.15.97]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17719; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:24:51 -0400 (EDT) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vmailer Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:27:12 GMT Message-ID: <358a0a60.121913838@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199806171315.GAA19719@hub.freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <199806171315.GAA19719@hub.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA07910 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:15:36 -0700 (PDT), "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: > > yesterday i converted chat from vmailer back to sendmail. > bounce mail was not going where i want. > > i have just converted it back....i am doing this correctly, > none of you should notice anything, unless you start > reading all the headers ;) Is vmailer publicly available now? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 11:27:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08586 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08560 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:27:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (ferengal-2-53.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.181]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id NAA28175; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:27:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA13074; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:27:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980617182722.ZM13073@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:27:22 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 17, 10:39am) References: <199806170441.OAA10417@cimlogic.com.au> <980617052543.ZM11629@darkstar.connect.com> <19980617103930.47696@papillon.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Greg Lehey , John Birrell , higginsj@iname.com Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jonny@jonny.eng.br, lcremean@tidalwave.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 17, 10:39am, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > On Wed, 17 June 1998 at 5:25:43 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved > > to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a > > holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a > > national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early > > settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like > > that. > > It was my understanding that the British were the last people to try > to spoil your 4th July celebrations, and that's why you treated them > so rudely. Maybe that's the real background of the reception we all > get from the INS. > You may have hit upon the reason that the INS is so nasty. The INS is just going round ensuring that we can celebrate our holidays without spoilers getting into the act. Seems to me that we Yanks have a reputation of treating the British a bit rudely. Something in the year 1812 comes to mind also. We Yanks appear to be a rather feisty lot all the way around. Frank > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 11:42:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10182 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10168 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (ferengal-2-53.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.181]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id NAA29991; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:42:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA13098; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:42:40 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980617184240.ZM13097@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:42:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: jack "Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 17, 12:35pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: don morrison , jack Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: Greg Lehey , Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, lcremean@tidalwave.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 17, 12:35pm, jack wrote: > Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > > Off the southern tip of Florida lie a string of islands, known as > the Florida Keys, with one road approximately 150 miles long that > terminates in Key West. Key West is the southern most point in > the continental US and 90 miles from Cuba. Tourism is the > primary industry in the Keys. > > > One holiday weekend in the early 1980's Immigration set up what > they called a checkpoint (in actuality a roadblock) at the two > points where the road connects to the mainland. Everyone was > required to present identification to pass. Rumor had it that > two of the individuals caught in the 5+ hour delay that was > created were the wife and son of the areas congress critter. Two > days latter the head of the INS office in Miami was replaced. > The stunt was never repeated. > Only in America. The INS offical in Miami probably would have been better off with a naval blockade of Cuba. ;-) Frank > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst > jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. > Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. > PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null > Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-- End of excerpt from jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 11:56:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12429 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:56:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papillon.lemis.com (rider.dunham.org [207.170.123.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12411 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id LAA00727; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:57:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980617115708.42902@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:57:08 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Frank Pawlak , malte@webmore.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Subject: Re: Funny, but true... References: <980616003156.ZM3307@darkstar.connect.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <980616003156.ZM3307@darkstar.connect.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 12:31:56AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 16 June 1998 at 0:31:56 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > The end result is that if you are a citizen of a foreign country, and don't > belong to any of those classes of people, you are entirely welcome to enter, > visit, and enjoy the USA. If you are a person of such stature that has a > problem truthfully answering those questions, I'm not so sure that I'd want you > here either. Be it paradoxical or not, mission acomplished. No problems with that. > Whether or not the State Department is paranoid or not, personally I'd prefer > that they were a little paranoid. I wouldn't. Paranoids tend to behave irrationally. Suspicious, yes, but not paranoid. > As I stated, there are citizens of other countries, rightly or > wrongly, that don't hold Americans or the USA in high esteem. We > really don't need outsiders doing World Trade Center bombings or > opening up with an AK47 and hosing the shit out of a bunch innocent > civilians just to get their rocks off. Don't expect silly questions on forms to stop that class of people. The main thing that's stopping them is their own lack of intelligence--an serious concern when you think it out. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 12:16:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15750 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:16:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15743 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (ferengal-2-53.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.128.181]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA24810; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:16:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA13389; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:16:45 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980617191643.ZM13388@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:16:43 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Funny, but true..." (Jun 17, 11:57am) References: <980616003156.ZM3307@darkstar.connect.com> <19980617115708.42902@papillon.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Greg Lehey , malte@webmore.com Subject: Re: Funny, but true... Cc: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 17, 11:57am, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: Funny, but true... > On Tue, 16 June 1998 at 0:31:56 +0000, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > > The end result is that if you are a citizen of a foreign country, and don't > > belong to any of those classes of people, you are entirely welcome to enter, > > visit, and enjoy the USA. If you are a person of such stature that has a > > problem truthfully answering those questions, I'm not so sure that I'd want you > > here either. Be it paradoxical or not, mission acomplished. > > No problems with that. > > > Whether or not the State Department is paranoid or not, personally I'd prefer > > that they were a little paranoid. > > I wouldn't. Paranoids tend to behave irrationally. Suspicious, yes, > but not paranoid. Suspicious, would probably a better attitude, which is what I intended by preferring a "little paranoid". > > > As I stated, there are citizens of other countries, rightly or > > wrongly, that don't hold Americans or the USA in high esteem. We > > really don't need outsiders doing World Trade Center bombings or > > opening up with an AK47 and hosing the shit out of a bunch innocent > > civilians just to get their rocks off. > > Don't expect silly questions on forms to stop that class of people. > The main thing that's stopping them is their own lack of > intelligence--an serious concern when you think it out. > No, questions on forms will certainly not stop that class of people from doing whatever their intent maybe. The only thing the questions may accomplish is to prevent such people from tying up our court system, and make it easier of the US to get rid of them. There is much talk here of native fanatics doing terrorist type things on an increased level. Lack of intelligence appears to an increasing trait among people. Sometimes you wonder where the hell this world is headed. The Cold War ends and some other stuff starts. We just can't seem to grasp the ideas of respect for and acceptance of others, however different their cultures maybe. Regards, Frank > Greg > -- > Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > See complete headers for address and phone numbers >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 14:26:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10504 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:26:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10497 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:26:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28370; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:26:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199806172126.PAA28370@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) In-Reply-To: <980617154140.ZM12469@darkstar.connect.com> from Frank Pawlak at "Jun 17, 98 03:41:40 pm" To: fpawlak@execpc.com (Frank Pawlak) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:26:08 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters celverly scripted: > > Except the government was systematically destroying "America-as-it-was" and > > creating the suburban welfare state we now enjoy. Of coure in the 1950's > > it was far too early to see the damage they had done. Frank Pawlak wrote: > I take it that you are referring to the systematic way that the rich got richer > and the poor got poorer, the disappearance of the middle class through tax law > changes? I agree "America today" is not "America-as it was" then. sigh! Pretty much, except the poor actually got richer, too. Try explaining to a refugee in West Africa that living in a brick building with electricity, running water, and two televisions is poverty. Most "Americans" completely fail to understand that our "lower middle class" lifestyle in indistinguishable from "rich" to much of the world. The fact that the biggest day-to-day concern in my life right now is the horrid traffic I drive through going to and from work shows what an easy life I have. It doesn't even stop me from driving my daughter to my mother's house, through 60 miles of commute-time traffic, once a week. I kvetch about this constantly, and denigrate the "leadership vacuum" in my fiar state (Utah) that led to this mess, but I wouldn't trade it for anywhere else I know. Believed me, I've lived a *lot* of places (in the USA), and if I knew of something better, I'd just move there. My skills are pretty portable, and much in demand. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 15:29:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22725 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-160.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22687 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:29:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA02380; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:28:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:28:12 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Frank Pawlak cc: John Birrell , higginsj@iname.com, grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <980617052543.ZM11629@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved > to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a > holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a > national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early > settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like that. > > My better half is British and has to listen to that stuff all the time. > Somehow they have a slightly different version of US history over there. Just like how the south called the American Civil War, The War of Northern Agression. I do hate having the 4th interrupted. Pyromanic fits are so fun, I would hate to have them ruined. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 15:30:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22995 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:30:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-160.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22933 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:30:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA02390; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:29:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:29:47 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: John Birrell cc: Frank Pawlak , higginsj@iname.com, grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <199806170544.PAA10627@cimlogic.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John Birrell wrote: > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved > > to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a > > holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a > > national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early > > settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like that. > > Ah yes, we celebrate it here too, for fear that _you_ might invade us. 8-) > We even had a holiday last week for the Queen's birthday just in case > she might be planning to invade - which is not out of the question since > we're trying to become a republic. Come on, the queen invade? It is just one old lady, how much harm could she do? No matter how bad your army is I am sure they could take her out. James > > -- > John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ > CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 15:33:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23434 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:33:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-160.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.160]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23404 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA02402; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:32:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:32:34 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: jack cc: don morrison , Greg Lehey , Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, jack wrote: > > One holiday weekend in the early 1980's Immigration set up what > they called a checkpoint (in actuality a roadblock) at the two > points where the road connects to the mainland. Everyone was > required to present identification to pass. Rumor had it that > two of the individuals caught in the 5+ hour delay that was > created were the wife and son of the areas congress critter. Two > days latter the head of the INS office in Miami was replaced. > The stunt was never repeated. Congress Critter? Sounds like the name of a stuffed animal. Or maybe a basis for a new outdoor sport. Congress Critter hunting. Hmm I bet you could get arrested for that. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 15:48:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25379 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:48:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic25.pm04.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25363 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA29808; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980617154800.A29776@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:48:00 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: higginsj@iname.com, jack Cc: don morrison , Greg Lehey , Frank Pawlak , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from James on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:32:34PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:32:34PM -0400, James wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, jack wrote: > > > > One holiday weekend in the early 1980's Immigration set up what > > they called a checkpoint (in actuality a roadblock) at the two > > points where the road connects to the mainland. Everyone was > > required to present identification to pass. Rumor had it that > > two of the individuals caught in the 5+ hour delay that was > > created were the wife and son of the areas congress critter. Two > > days latter the head of the INS office in Miami was replaced. > > The stunt was never repeated. > > Congress Critter? > > Sounds like the name of a stuffed animal. Or maybe a basis for a new > outdoor sport. Congress Critter hunting. > > Hmm I bet you could get arrested for that. > "Reader, pretend you are a member of congress and pretend you are an idiot. Ah, but I repeat myself." - Mark Twain, Puddinghead Wilson Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 15:57:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26283 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic25.pm04.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26278 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA29895; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980617155642.B29776@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:56:42 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: higginsj@iname.com, John Birrell Cc: Frank Pawlak , grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <199806170544.PAA10627@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from James on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:29:47PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:29:47PM -0400, James wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John Birrell wrote: > > > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved > > > to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a > > > holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a > > > national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early > > > settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like that. > > > > Ah yes, we celebrate it here too, for fear that _you_ might invade us. 8-) > > We even had a holiday last week for the Queen's birthday just in case > > she might be planning to invade - which is not out of the question since > > we're trying to become a republic. > > Come on, the queen invade? It is just one old lady, how much harm could > she do? No matter how bad your army is I am sure they could take her out. > Come on, have you seen the queen? She looks like such a nice old lady it would be like being rude to your grandmother. Most people, no matter how battle tested, would have a hard time saying no to a sweet grandmother type. It's the perfect invasion plan. An army of grandmothers ;-) Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 16:15:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA29504 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from minos.dyn.ml.org (dominus@client-151-197-112-6.bellatlantic.net [151.197.112.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29491 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (dominus@localhost) by minos.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02530; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:13:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dominus@minos.dyn.ml.org) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:13:43 -0400 (EDT) From: James X-Sender: dominus@localhost Reply-To: higginsj@iname.com To: Josef Grosch cc: higginsj@iname.com, John Birrell , Frank Pawlak , grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <19980617155642.B29776@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 06:29:47PM -0400, James wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, John Birrell wrote: > > > > > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > > You have a wonderful sense of humor. I enjoyed your message, and was relieved > > > > to hear that the invasion will not take place on July 4th. That day is a > > > > holiday here you know, and I just hate it when a holiday is disrupted by a > > > > national call to arms. On that day we celebrate the time when the early > > > > settlers here threw the British tea into the ocean or something like that. > > > > > > Ah yes, we celebrate it here too, for fear that _you_ might invade us. 8-) > > > We even had a holiday last week for the Queen's birthday just in case > > > she might be planning to invade - which is not out of the question since > > > we're trying to become a republic. > > > > Come on, the queen invade? It is just one old lady, how much harm could > > she do? No matter how bad your army is I am sure they could take her out. > > > > Come on, have you seen the queen? She looks like such a nice old lady it > would be like being rude to your grandmother. Most people, no matter how > battle tested, would have a hard time saying no to a sweet grandmother > type. It's the perfect invasion plan. An army of grandmothers ;-) Hmmmm... artillary crew with walkers? Yeah, but it would be easy to order strikes to get them while they are asleep. Just get them at naptime or about 8 pm. : ) James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 19:30:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28006 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:30:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27938 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:29:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (daisy30.verinet.com [199.45.181.254]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA00693; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:29:44 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03799; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:29:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:29:39 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199806180229.UAA03799@struct.> To: fpawlak@execpc.com, wes@softweyr.com Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3587E069.488410B3@softweyr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I had forgotten about this. In the 50's we had a lot of politicians looking > > for communists behind every lamp post and under every bed. A lot of elections > > were won using that stance. In general the 1950's were good years here, with > > the exceptions of that and civil rights. > > Except the government was systematically destroying "America-as-it-was" and > creating the suburban welfare state we now enjoy. Of coure in the 1950's > it was far too early to see the damage they had done. We need a war. I'm starting to think a couple years worth of devastation is becoming very necessary. Perspective has been lost for so long only sustained shelling has a chance of restoring it. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 20:07:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02799 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02789 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:07:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (daisy30.verinet.com [199.45.181.254]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA06321; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:07:01 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03898; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:06:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:06:54 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199806180306.VAA03898@struct.> To: fpawlak@execpc.com Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <980617154140.ZM12469@darkstar.connect.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I take it that you are referring to the systematic way that the > rich got richer and the poor got poorer, the disappearance of the > middle class through tax law changes? I agree "America today" is > not "America-as it was" then. sigh! > > Frank So what are you Frank, rich or poor? Where I live you stand a good chance of getting killed by errant contractor vehicles hauling building material for the new houses of the 'disappearing' middle class. If the middle class is disappearing anywhere it's up. Whether they know it or not. I just slithered into a new place myself. Prior to me this was farmland. Damn prairie dogs. Maybe I'll ease my vanishing middle class conscience and buy a '98 VW Beetle. Red. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jun 17 20:13:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03509 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:13:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03493 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:13:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (daisy30.verinet.com [199.45.181.254]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA07129; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:12:43 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03921; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:12:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:12:37 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199806180312.VAA03921@struct.> To: grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980617103930.47696@papillon.lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It was my understanding that the British were the last people to try > to spoil your 4th July celebrations, and that's why you treated them > so rudely. Maybe that's the real background of the reception we all > get from the INS. > > Greg Perhaps we're just paranoid about agents from Her Majesties secret service trying to topple our government from the inside. They can be rather stubborn, those brits. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 02:31:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24955 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from css.tuu.utas.edu.au (css.tuu.utas.edu.au [131.217.115.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA24943 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:31:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from iaint@css.tuu.utas.edu.au) Received: from localhost (iaint@localhost) by css.tuu.utas.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA14405; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:29:01 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:29:01 +1000 (EST) From: Iain Templeton To: Josef Grosch cc: higginsj@iname.com, John Birrell , Frank Pawlak , grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <19980617155642.B29776@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Josef Grosch wrote: > > Come on, the queen invade? It is just one old lady, how much harm could > > she do? No matter how bad your army is I am sure they could take her out. > > > > Come on, have you seen the queen? She looks like such a nice old lady it > would be like being rude to your grandmother. Most people, no matter how > battle tested, would have a hard time saying no to a sweet grandmother > type. It's the perfect invasion plan. An army of grandmothers ;-) > All we'd need to do to defeat an army of grandmothers is to get Ray back hosting the Midday Show, and have an episode from the landing area. Iain. I guess that is probably too Australian for most people to get. Bring on the 1st Hairpiece Btn... -- Iain Templeton (iain@ugh.net.au), Computer Science Society Admin 3rd Year Computer Systems Engineering, Uni of Tasmania To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 02:32:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA25146 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:32:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA25141 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA21344; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:32:20 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980618193211.50586@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:32:11 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: John Birrell , Iain Templeton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806170712.RAA10821@cimlogic.com.au> <19980617180813.64169@welearn.com.au> <19980617104203.58315@papillon.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980617104203.58315@papillon.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 10:42:03AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 10:42:03AM -0500, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wed, 17 June 1998 at 18:08:13 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 17, 1998 at 05:12:59PM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > >> Iain Templeton wrote: > >>> Or we could just give guns to all the people who voted for One Nation on > >>> Saturday, and tell them that the American Wheat subsidies are killing the > >>> country.[Iain runs and hides] > >> > >> I thought that a One Nation government would _give_ out guns with their > >> low interest loans for all the ordinary people. The problem we'll > >> have is pointing out to them which ones are americans, though. We might > >> have to paint all americans red just in case all those One Nation supporters > >> aren't bright enough to differentiate. Now _I_ better run and hide... not > >> under the bed because they're looking there. After all, that's where all > >> the foreigners are, isn't it? > >> > >>> Do I hear someone point out that I'm not aboriginal, so that makes me > >> technically a foreigners too? ] > > > > Believe me, in Queensland you're safer as a foreigner. Paint your hair > > red and look dumb and confused whenever numbers are mentioned, and leave > > out a syllable or two when you say Australia. Spell it how you say it for > > good measure. You might be accepted as a supporter. Then you'll only have > > to worry about the 75% who didn't vote for her. > > OK, for the sake of us expatriates, how did the election go? Are they > moving the Queensland parliament to a fish and chip shop? They're still trying to count her votes, can't find enough volunteers to take off their shoes. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 02:58:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA28614 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:58:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA28604 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:58:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from recas002.geco-prakla.slb.com (recas002 [134.32.45.92]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA27275 ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:56:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by recas002.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02243; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:02:05 +0200 To: "Frank Pawlak" Cc: Greg Lehey , lcremean@tidalwave.net, Joao Carlos Mendes Luis , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: <199806131959.QAA25251@roma.coe.ufrj.br> <19980613174107.42635@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net> <19980615125757.61980@papillon.lemis.com> <980616221213.ZM10797@darkstar.connect.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 18 Jun 1998 12:02:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Frank Pawlak"'s message of Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:12:13 +0000 Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Frank Pawlak" writes: > Just for comparison purposes, when you enter countries such as England, France, > Germany, or your own country Australia? Are we in the US more or less > paranoid? I have never experienced anything like that in any of the countries I have ever traveled to (in no particular order: Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France). Of course, anyone can travel without a passport within Scandinavia; but when I travel to France on my Norwegian passport, the French customs just wave me through without even checking the picture. Funnily, trying to enter France with a French passport is not as trivial; but I stopped using my French passport when I realized that the line for non-EU citizens was shorter than the line for EU citizens. It used to be the other way around... -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 03:08:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:08:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01047 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from recas002.geco-prakla.slb.com (recas002 [134.32.45.92]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA27906 ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:07:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by recas002.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02254; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:13:12 +0200 To: Iain Templeton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) References: Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 18 Jun 1998 12:13:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: Iain Templeton's message of Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:11:48 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Iain Templeton writes: > [3] As you can see by the footnotes, I've been reading too much > rec.humor.oracle.d recently (but not alt.sysadmin.recovery) Ssssh! You should know better than to refer to that group by name. DES (who hasn't got nearly enough time to read the Monastery any more) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 03:13:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01815 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01803 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 03:13:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com) Received: from recas002.geco-prakla.slb.com (recas002 [134.32.45.92]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA28278 ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:13:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by recas002.geco-prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA02269; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:18:53 +0200 To: Brian Tao Cc: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: ``Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD'' References: Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 18 Jun 1998 12:18:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brian Tao's message of Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brian Tao writes: > http://www.rhapsodyos.com/editorial/stone/ST00014.html "[OpenBSD and FreeBSD] are maintained and enhanced by an ever increasing number of the world's top programmers." Now that's a compliment if I ever saw one :) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 05:36:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23183 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 05:36:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23167; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 05:36:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806181236.FAA23167@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: vmailer In-Reply-To: <358a0a60.121913838@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Jun 17, 98 06:27:12 pm" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 05:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly wrote: > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:15:36 -0700 (PDT), "Jonathan M. Bresler" > wrote: > > > > > yesterday i converted chat from vmailer back to sendmail. > > bounce mail was not going where i want. > > > > i have just converted it back....i am doing this correctly, > > none of you should notice anything, unless you start > > reading all the headers ;) > > Is vmailer publicly available now? > no it is not, as far as i know. but it will be worth the wait, IMHO. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 05:46:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24731 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 05:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24713; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 05:46:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199806181246.FAA24713@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) In-Reply-To: <19980617155642.B29776@mooseriver.com> from Josef Grosch at "Jun 17, 98 03:56:42 pm" To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 05:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: higginsj@iname.com, jb@cimlogic.com.au, fpawlak@execpc.com, grog@lemis.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jonny@jonny.eng.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > > Come on, have you seen the queen? She looks like such a nice old lady it > would be like being rude to your grandmother. Most people, no matter how > battle tested, would have a hard time saying no to a sweet grandmother > type. It's the perfect invasion plan. An army of grandmothers ;-) every grandmother is someone's mother-in-law. just have to find the right soldiers to do the job. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 06:22:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01050 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01030 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:22:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15173; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:22:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav cc: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: ``Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD'' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id GAA01038 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jun 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > "[OpenBSD and FreeBSD] are maintained and enhanced by an ever > increasing number of the world's top programmers." > > Now that's a compliment if I ever saw one :) I've been an Apple II user since, what, 1979/1980? My first computer was an Apple IIGS, 1986. It served me well for 8 whole years (including a stint towards the end as the console for an SGI PowerChallenge M server at work). My next computer is the one I'm typing on now, a P100 bought in 1995. Even though I'm not a huge Apple fan anymore, it's nice to see them come back around like this. :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 08:56:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25622 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:56:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from exchangeserver.mpainc.com ([198.246.145.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25617 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from RickSiple@mpainc.com) Received: by EXCHANGESERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:56:33 -0400 Message-ID: <11FFBC5E23EDD111AF8D006008CEB82D014D76@EXCHANGESERVER> From: Rick Siple To: "Chat Mailing List (E-mail)" Subject: SyNTUnix: Password Synchronization Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:56:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI, Came across a product in the news today to synchronize passwords between Windows NT and various flavors of Unix. This apparently includes FreeBSD, however FreeBSD is never explicitly mentioned in the press release, just in the trademarks section at the end. For that matter, I don't think they mentioned any specific version of Unix in the press release. I have no particular interest in the product as I do not manage any FreeBSD servers, but it could be added to the "Vendors" page of the web site for the benefit of others. News article: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/980616/va_syntuni_1.html Home page: http://www.Syntunix.com __________ Rick Siple RickSiple@MPAInc.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 09:06:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27203 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27170 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29726; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:06:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199806181606.KAA29726@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: ``Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD'' In-Reply-To: from Brian Tao at "Jun 18, 98 09:22:10 am" To: taob@risc.org (Brian Tao) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:06:31 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brian Tao reported: > I've been an Apple II user since, what, 1979/1980? My first > computer was an Apple IIGS, 1986. It served me well for 8 whole years > (including a stint towards the end as the console for an SGI > PowerChallenge M server at work). My next computer is the one I'm > typing on now, a P100 bought in 1995. Even though I'm not a huge > Apple fan anymore, it's nice to see them come back around like this. :) You have to be careful about those IIgs users. My cousin bought one a number of years ago and liked it so much he started writing magazine articles. Apple took notice and hired him to work on the IIgs compilers. He's now the Director of MacOS development. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 13:16:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05265 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05202 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id QAA12996 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:15:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Blue Ribbon prize for ATIPA! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just wanted to tell everyone who has not done business with atipa or is looking for a good supplier of FreeBSD hardware, BUY FROM ATIPA! I have recently just bought a monitor and some parts for a server from them. There was no hassle, they are FAST in getting you the stuff you need, and that is the biggest win for me, SPEED in getting me my stuff :) They have a modest selection of hardware but it is all SOLID hardwareand priced rather well!. Of course I would rather see them list TYAN and ASUS motherboards rather than ASUS and Gigabyte. But you can't win em all :) They are really good and really reliable. If you have any questions about which hardware works best just ask them. I dont see people very often writing about their experiences with FreeBSD dealers wether its hardware or software. ATIPA gets my vote for FreeBSD vender of the year :) Do we have such an honor? So if your looking for a good dealer of FreeBSD friendly parts call up atipa or check them out at http://www.atipa.com. Man did that sound like spam, maybe I should of started it with EMAIL WORKS!!!! hehe Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 14:03:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13306 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13254; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-1-124.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.138.124]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id QAA07951; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:03:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id QAA15698; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:03:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980618210313.ZM15697@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:03:13 +0000 In-Reply-To: Open Systems Networking "Blue Ribbon prize for ATIPA!" (Jun 18, 4:15pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blue Ribbon prize for ATIPA! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps this sort of thing should go into the next edition of the FreeBSD News Letter. Linux has hardware vendors that provide workstations and servers designed for that OS. It is a mutually supportive relationship. ATIPA designs and configures custom built servers and workstations especially to exploit the power of FreeBSD. FreeBSD benefits by having a solid vendor to partner with to provide users with a platform optimized for FreeBSD. Frank On Jun 18, 4:15pm, Open Systems Networking wrote: > Subject: Blue Ribbon prize for ATIPA! > > I just wanted to tell everyone who has not done business with atipa or is > looking for a good supplier of FreeBSD hardware, BUY FROM ATIPA! > I have recently just bought a monitor and some parts for a server from > them. There was no hassle, they are FAST in getting you the stuff you > need, and that is the biggest win for me, SPEED in getting me my > stuff :) They have a modest selection of hardware but it is all SOLID > hardwareand priced rather well!. Of course I would rather see them list > TYAN and ASUS motherboards rather than ASUS and Gigabyte. But you can't > win em all :) They are really good and really reliable. If you have any > questions about which hardware works best just ask them. > I dont see people very often writing about their experiences with > FreeBSD dealers wether its hardware or software. ATIPA gets my vote for > FreeBSD vender of the year :) Do we have such an honor? > So if your looking for a good dealer of FreeBSD friendly parts call up > atipa or check them out at http://www.atipa.com. > > Man did that sound like spam, maybe I should of started it with > EMAIL WORKS!!!! hehe > > Chris > > -- > "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." > > ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. > FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 > -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 > FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security > ===================================| http://open-systems.net > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te > gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC > foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z > d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb > NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv > CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 > b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= > =BBjp > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Open Systems Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 14:17:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:17:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16216 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA26593; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:17:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: jack cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blue Ribbon prize for ATIPA! [NOT] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, jack wrote: > I was similarly impressed with my FIRST order with them. > Subsequent orders each took increasingly longer to arrive. If > you ever need to return anything I hope you can get a RMA in less > than the eleven days it took me to get one from them. > > Based on my personal experience, I must recommend against doing > business with them. :( Well Im sorry to hear that. Ive ordered from them twice so far, once for a monitor and the second time for some hardware for the previously mentioned server. Both came FAST within 3 days and with no problems, even ordered COD. I havent had to return anything yet. So I cant comment on that part of their service. But from what I have seen so far, I have to stick with them being highly rated. Now if 20 other people respond as you have then maybe I got lucky. But no one is going to have a perfect batting record. But im happy. Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience. Chris -- "Linux... The choice of a GNUtered generation." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 14:38:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20101 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:38:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from luomat.peak.org (cc344191-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.83.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20082 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from luomat@luomat.peak.org) Received: by luomat.peak.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id RAA04628; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806182138.RAA04628@luomat.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Thu, 18 Jun 98 17:38:36 -0400 To: Brian Tao Subject: Re: ``Home of the Brave, Land of the FreeBSD'' cc: FREEBSD-CHAT References: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Even though I'm not a huge Apple fan anymore, it's nice to see > them come back around like this. :) I've been a NeXTaholic since 1991 (I feel like I should have started this with "Hello my name is Tim and I've been a NeXTaholic since 1991") Andrew Stone (who wrote the article with the Open-/Free- BSD quote is a longtime NeXTStep developer who has written a ton of great software (http://www.stone.com). I had a very interesting discussion the other day with another NeXTer. Apple is dropping Intel support for Rhapsody, which I think is probably the worse decision I've ever heard (the rationale being that people will now buy Apple hardware and Apple will make more $$ from that). That's the main reason I'm now getting interested in FreeBSD. I don't have a ton of money to be throwing around for an OS+new hardware (esp Mac hardware which has always been pricey). Anyway, the interesting discussion centered around the fact that Rhapsody will be based on BSD4.4 (whereas NeXTstep was 4.3-based). The problem is that there won't be source code, and with a Unix OS in today's Internet, you need either 1) fast vendor patches to security holes in commercial Unixes or 2) source code to the OS. My friend was saying that Apple doesn't care that much about the underlying OS and wouldn't it be cool if they picked a Free *nix to develop their GUI, etc around. I thought it was a very cool idea.... despite the fact that it will never happen. TjL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 14:40:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20324 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:40:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20300 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:40:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA03151; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:09:09 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blue Ribbon prize for ATIPA! [NOT] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > I just wanted to tell everyone who has not done business with atipa or is > looking for a good supplier of FreeBSD hardware, BUY FROM ATIPA! > I have recently just bought a monitor and some parts for a server from > them. There was no hassle, they are FAST in getting you the stuff you > need, and that is the biggest win for me, SPEED in getting me my I was similarly impressed with my FIRST order with them. Subsequent orders each took increasingly longer to arrive. If you ever need to return anything I hope you can get a RMA in less than the eleven days it took me to get one from them. Based on my personal experience, I must recommend against doing business with them. :( -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null Mail from netcom.com blocked until they stop relaying SPAM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 17:34:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15737 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15726 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:34:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (dantooine-2-172.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.110]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id TAA19715; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:34:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA16321; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:34:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980619003414.ZM16320@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:34:14 +0000 In-Reply-To: allen campbell "Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...)" (Jun 17, 9:06pm) References: <199806180306.VAA03898@struct.> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: allen campbell Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 17, 9:06pm, allen campbell wrote: > Subject: Re: US Immigration (was: Funny, but true...) > > I take it that you are referring to the systematic way that the > > rich got richer and the poor got poorer, the disappearance of the > > middle class through tax law changes? I agree "America today" is > > not "America-as it was" then. sigh! > > > > Frank > > So what are you Frank, rich or poor? Why do you ask? > > Where I live you stand a good chance of getting killed by errant > contractor vehicles hauling building material for the new houses > of the 'disappearing' middle class. If the middle class is > disappearing anywhere it's up. Whether they know it or not. >From your view of things perhaps you are correct. Life is gooood!! You know, he who dies with the most toys wins, doesn't he. > > I just slithered into a new place myself. Prior to me this was > farmland. Damn prairie dogs. Maybe I'll ease my vanishing middle > class conscience and buy a '98 VW Beetle. Sounds like just the thing which any suburbanite needs. Prairie Dogs and farmland would be the first two things that come to my mind as un-needed. Keep an eye open for those construction vehicles lest they make the endangered species list. Frank > > Red. > > -- > Allen Campbell > allenc@verinet.com >-- End of excerpt from allen campbell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 18:00:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18841 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:00:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18829 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (dantooine-2-172.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.110]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id UAA27849; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:00:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id TAA16457; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:59:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980619005955.ZM16456@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 00:59:55 +0000 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters "Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration)" (Jun 17, 3:26pm) References: <199806172126.PAA28370@obie.softweyr.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 17, 3:26pm, Wes Peters wrote: > Subject: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) > Wes Peters celverly scripted: > > > Except the government was systematically destroying "America-as-it-was" and > > > creating the suburban welfare state we now enjoy. Of coure in the 1950's > > > it was far too early to see the damage they had done. > > Frank Pawlak wrote: > > I take it that you are referring to the systematic way that the rich got richer > > and the poor got poorer, the disappearance of the middle class through tax law > > changes? I agree "America today" is not "America-as it was" then. sigh! > > Pretty much, except the poor actually got richer, too. Try explaining > to a refugee in West Africa that living in a brick building with > electricity, running water, and two televisions is poverty. Most > "Americans" completely fail to understand that our "lower middle > class" lifestyle in indistinguishable from "rich" to much of the > world. Agreed, but that is all relative. Indeed there are third world countries where the general population is worse off than here in the States. That probably holds for most countries. What we waste, others could live off of just fine. But, poverty is poverty, and poverty in the midst of riches is unconscionable regardless of where it occurs. In any country where 20% of the population owns 80% of the nation's wealth there is a problem. That is exactly the case here in the USA. > > The fact that the biggest day-to-day concern in my life right now > is the horrid traffic I drive through going to and from work shows > what an easy life I have. It doesn't even stop me from driving my > daughter to my mother's house, through 60 miles of commute-time > traffic, once a week. I kvetch about this constantly, and denigrate > the "leadership vacuum" in my fiar state (Utah) that led to this > mess, but I wouldn't trade it for anywhere else I know. Believed > me, I've lived a *lot* of places (in the USA), and if I knew of > something better, I'd just move there. My skills are pretty > portable, and much in demand. ;^) Problems, problems!! Life does throw a bad hair day at us now and again, doesn't it. Be glad for your circumstances, there are plenty of others in this country that would take your place and feel that they did not have a thing to bitch about. Regards, Frank > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com >-- End of excerpt from Wes Peters To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 19:14:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA29051 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id TAA12268; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:14:34 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id TAA11584; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 19:04:13 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Frank Pawlak cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) In-Reply-To: <980619005955.ZM16456@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: >In any country where 20% of the population owns 80% of the nation's wealth >there is a problem. That is exactly the case here in the USA. I read an editorial by a fellow who was commenting on a book (The Millionaire Next Door) that had a stat that I can't really remember but the point was there are few people with a net worth of one million dollars than you might think. (3.5% I think) Think of how rare billionares are in light of that 3.5% number. So the rest of us 96.5 percent aren't millionares. But the huge chunk of those people aren't impoverished either. If you can recall your gaussian distribution, three standard deviations from the norm encompasses 99% of the distribution. So when people tell me that America is becoming highly polarized in terms of wealth I have to agree that the richest are richer, BUT, there is a _tremendous_ portion of the population in between. Perhaps the reporting of the difference between rich and poor is disproportianate to the actual situation. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 20:06:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07111 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07058 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:05:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (xeros-2-155.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.91.221]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id WAA02400; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:05:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA16697; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:05:48 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980619030547.ZM16696@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:05:47 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" "Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration)" (Jun 18, 7:04pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 18, 7:04pm, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigratio > On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > >In any country where 20% of the population owns 80% of the nation's wealth > >there is a problem. That is exactly the case here in the USA. > > I read an editorial by a fellow who was commenting on a book (The > Millionaire Next Door) that had a stat that I can't really remember but > the point was there are few people with a net worth of one million dollars > than you might think. (3.5% I think) We could debate this forever. I find those numbers very hard to believe. I spent the major portion of my university career in the study of Labor Economics and the numbers you quote in noway represent anything that I've ever seen. > > Think of how rare billionares are in light of that 3.5% number. > > So the rest of us 96.5 percent aren't millionares. But the huge chunk of > those people aren't impoverished either. If you can recall your gaussian > distribution, three standard deviations from the norm encompasses 99% of > the distribution. Yes, I do remember some of this stuff. Where are you drawing your sample from? How wide is the standard deviation? The shape of the bell curve does matter. In saying this, I am not accusing you: there is an old saying to the effect "figures don't lie but liers sure can figure". Or statistics don't lie, but liers sure can use statistics. > > So when people tell me that America is becoming highly polarized in terms > of wealth I have to agree that the richest are richer, BUT, there is a > _tremendous_ portion of the population in between. I agree that "there is a tremendous_portion of the population in between". But, so what? The facts of this issue are that the real wages of the American worker has fallen since the early 1970's. Which means that the average worker is less well off than they were in the early 1970's. Real wages are the dollar wage adjusted for inflation, or adjusted for the cost of living. Frank > > Perhaps the reporting of the difference between rich and poor is > disproportianate to the actual situation. > > Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering > Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ > | 206-633-5994 >-- End of excerpt from Jason C. Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 20:20:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09146 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09133 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:20:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA41054; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:20:49 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA13654; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:10:28 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Frank Pawlak cc: "Jason C. Wells" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) In-Reply-To: <980619030547.ZM16696@darkstar.connect.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: >We could debate this forever. I find those numbers very hard to believe. I >spent the major portion of my university career in the study of Labor Economics >and the numbers you quote in noway represent anything that I've ever seen. Yes we could. :) Unless of course on party ceases to speak... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 20:58:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14918 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:58:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14884 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:58:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (skaro-2-132.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.139.198]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id WAA06665; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:58:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA16872; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:58:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980619035818.ZM16871@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:58:18 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" "Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration)" (Jun 18, 8:10pm) References: X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jason C. Wells" , Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jun 18, 8:10pm, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigratio > On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > >We could debate this forever. I find those numbers very hard to believe. I > >spent the major portion of my university career in the study of Labor Economics > >and the numbers you quote in noway represent anything that I've ever seen. > > Yes we could. :) Unless of course on party ceases to speak... >-- End of excerpt from Jason C. Wells I second the motion. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jun 18 22:06:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25035 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24978 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:06:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00785; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:05:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3589F1B4.5D5DB378@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:05:56 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lifestyles of the rich and shameless (no longer US Immigration) References: <980619030547.ZM16696@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Frank Pawlak wrote: > We could debate this forever. I find those numbers very hard to believe. I > spent the major portion of my university career in the study of Labor Economics > and the numbers you quote in noway represent anything that I've ever seen. I thought so. It's easy to see there will not be any reasoning in this "discussion." Of course you find those numbers hard to believe, they don't agree with your preconceived notion of what we're discussing. > The facts of this issue are that the real wages of the American worker has > fallen since the early 1970's. Which means that the average worker is less > well off than they were in the early 1970's. Real wages are the dollar wage > adjusted for inflation, or adjusted for the cost of living. Or are we just trying to buy more with similar wages? Does this "statistic" take into account the average American house built in the 1990s is TWICE THE SIZE of the average American house built in the 60s? Does it take into account the average American house now has something like 4 color TVs in it? Not to mention air conditioning, computers, video games, stereos, satellite dishes and/or cable, multiple phone lines, etc.? NONE of which were any where NEAR the norm for the (probably lower-) middle class neighborhoods *I* grew up in, in the 60s and 70s. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 19 07:00:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17958 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:00:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colin.muc.de (root@colin.muc.de [193.174.4.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA17904 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:00:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhs@jhs.muc.de) Received: from jhs.muc.de ([193.174.4.84]) by colin.muc.de with SMTP id <140605-3>; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:50:44 +0200 Received: (from jhs@localhost) by jhs.muc.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA04362; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:51:46 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from jhs) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:51:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199806191251.OAA04362@jhs.muc.de> To: compilers@jhs.muc.de Subject: new c standard From: Julian Stacey Reply-To: Julian Stacey X-Net: jhs@freebsd.org jhs@muc.de www.freebsd.org/~jhs/ www.muc.de/~jhs/ X-Tel: Phone: +49.89.268616 Fax: 2608126 Data: 26023276 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org C programmers: FYI a friend (Terry C) asked me to grab him a new C standard [proposa], on http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/open/n2620/ formats available are: .ps .pdf & text I fetched the .ps 2 Meg , 500 pages ! Julian Julian H. Stacey http://www.muc.de/~jhs/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jun 19 19:59:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27998 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:59:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from roma.coe.ufrj.br (jonny@roma.coe.ufrj.br [146.164.53.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27990 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:59:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonny@jonny.eng.br) Received: (from jonny@localhost) by roma.coe.ufrj.br (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA08440 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:59:13 -0300 (EST) (envelope-from jonny) From: Joao Carlos Mendes Luis Message-Id: <199806200259.XAA08440@roma.coe.ufrj.br> Subject: Computer Shopping at Miami Area To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:59:13 -0300 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, If somebody on this list lives around Miami and Orlando area, could you please tell me (in private) which are the Real Good (TM) places to buy computer hadware around ? I don't intend to build a server, since I must bring it back "in my pocket", but a notebook and some peripheral cards would be wonderful. In particular, I'm probably interested in a Monster 3D and a PalmPilot. It would be good to be a place where I could test all the hardware types, since I'm a very technical buyer. :) Oh, btw. If I buy the notebook in the very beginning, I may need an internet connection to install FreeBSD while sleeping at the hotel. :))) Thanks in advance for any hint, Jonny PS: I'm supposing that, like in Brazil, the Real Good (TM) places to buy are not those who advertise, nor the big ones, but usually a small shop hidden in a corner that only the Hackers know it is there. -- Joao Carlos Mendes Luis M.Sc. Student jonny@jonny.eng.br Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jun 20 09:27:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06170 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:27:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06154; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:27:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) Received: from shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.116]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA26796; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:27:52 -0400 Message-ID: <358BE2A7.8E1BB0@shaw.wave.ca> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:26:15 -0400 From: Lanny Baron Organization: York Hill Food X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rick@kris.wpi.edu, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: xmpeg3... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I have installed the pkg xmpeg3. When ever I try to run it I run into the following: purebeef# xmpeg3 & [1] 4734 purebeef# bgerror failed to handle background error. Original error: too many nested calls to Tcl_EvalObj (infinite loop?) Error in bgerror: too many nested calls to Tcl_EvalObj (infinite loop?) The songs do not play. Any one have a work around for this? Thanks Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message