From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar  8 01:05:46 1998
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Subject: Enabling games
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I'm sorry if this question is dense, but I have looked through every 
FreeBSD doc, FAQ and man pages I can find, and can't figure out how to 
enable the games.  What am I missing here.  I am running 2.2.1, and root 
can access the games, but my added id can't.  I have added myself to all 
the groups I can think off but still get the message '<gamename> not 
found'.  If this is a technical question and not a doc question, please 
forward my question appropriately.

Thanks. 

Alan


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar  8 03:48:43 1998
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Hi. Hope you have/had a good weekend.

On your page:
http://www2.freebsd.org/handbook/handbook4.html

In paragraph 1,
In sentence 2,
I bracket a likely error:

"Many of us have a significant investment in the code (and project) and
would certainly not mind a little financial [renumeration] now and then,
but we're definitely not prepared to insist on it."

In my best wise-ass writing style ( ;-) ):

You would not mind "financial renumeration"? Hmmmm...you wish to have
your finances re-counted, counted again? How odd! With all your computer
skills, keeping track of your finances should be easy! Who knew that
free software authors make so much money that it is hard to keep track
of? Or are they disorganized? You would be even richer if you tried to
get people to pay you money: remuneration!!

Bye.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar  8 03:56:39 1998
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> In my best wise-ass writing style ( ;-) ):

Where do we find these people? :-)

You're right - fixed!

				Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar  8 09:32:32 1998
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From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: alan.arnett@ibm.net, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sun, Mar 08, 1998 at 03:02:01AM +0000, aarnett@ibm.net wrote:
> I'm sorry if this question is dense, but I have looked through every 
> FreeBSD doc, FAQ and man pages I can find, and can't figure out how to 
> enable the games.  What am I missing here.  I am running 2.2.1, and root 
> can access the games, but my added id can't.  I have added myself to all 
> the groups I can think off but still get the message '<gamename> not 
> found'.  If this is a technical question and not a doc question, please 
> forward my question appropriately.

'doc' is for discussing the documentation.

The games are in /usr/games - make sure your $PATH contains this.

Please direct any replies to questions@freebsd.org - thanks!

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar  8 11:02:14 1998
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From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis)
Subject: Re: Invalid ref in FreeBSD_HandBook/Advanced_Networking/ISDN/ISDN_Cards
In-Reply-To: <9803051601.AA07539@hzsbg01.nl.lucent.com> from Jan-Hein Buhrman at "Mar 5, 98 05:01:09 pm"
To: jhbuhrman@lucent.com (Jan-Hein Buhrman)
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Jan-Hein Buhrman wrote:

> The FreeBSD handbook section about ISDN cards references an URL which
> doesn't exist anymore: `ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/bisdn'.
> 
> I couldn't find the correct location (perhaps I need to download
> `ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ls-lR.gz', to find out the correct
> location, but that's so big).
> 
> Perhaps somebody can fix the HandBook and/or point me to the correct
> location.

Bisdn is now obsolete and will be no longer maintained - it has been 
replaced by isdn4bsd, i'll append the README which should contain all
the info you need:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  ISDN4BSD
                                  ========

                       ALPHA Version 0.42 / February 1998

                                 written by:

			     Hellmuth Michaelis
                               Hallstrasse 20
                             D-25462 Rellingen
                           voice: +49 4101 473574
                            fax: +49 4101 473575
                             email: hm@kts.org

                      with the help and support of many,
                         see file ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS !

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                             WARNING !  CAUTION !
                             ====================

                     This is currently ALPHA level software !

                  In case you are not able or willing to debug
                  and fix it yourself and give feedback in terms
                  of patches and comments to the developer(s),
                  do not even think about installing it and remove
                  it from your mass storage device(s) immediately.

                  Do not install this in production environments
                  unless you are able to to debug it yourself !


                            YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !
                            ======================

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contents:
---------
	1.  Disclaimer
	2.  What is ISDN4BSD ?
        3.  Which BSD's are supported ?
	4.  NetBSD and ISDN4BSD
	5.  Where do i find documentation for ISDN4BSD ?
	6.  How do i install ISDN4BSD ?
	7.  Where do i get support for ISDN4BSD ?
	8.  How can i help and/or support ISDN4BSD ?
	9.  How do i report bugs ?
	10. Is there a mailinglist available for ISDN4BSD ?
	11. Where can i get ISDN4BSD ?


1. Disclaimer:
--------------
  It may be illegal to connect an ISDN4BSD based machine to the ISDN at 
  your site because ISDN4BSD has not been approved by the telecommunication 
  certification authority of your country. If in doubt, please contact your
  local ISDN provider !

  THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND
  ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
  IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
  ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHOR OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE
  FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
  DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
  OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
  HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
  LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
  OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
  SUCH DAMAGE.


2. What is ISDN4BSD ?
---------------------
ISDN4BSD (or in short i4b) is a package for interfacing a computer running
FreeBSD to the ISDN. The only ISDN protocol currently supported is the BRI
protocol specified in I.430, Q.921 and Q.931; better known as DSS1 or 
Euro-ISDN.  ISDN4BSD allows you to make IP network connections by using
either IP packets sent in raw HDLC frames on the B channel or by using
synchronous PPP. For telephony, ISDN4BSD can answer incoming phone calls
like an answering machine.


3. Which BSD's are supported ?
------------------------------

FreeBSD:
	I only run and develop under released FreeBSD versions, this means 
	that i currently use FreeBSD 2.2.5 for development of ISDN4BSD. 
	Gary usually has FreeBSD current up to date and running, so 
	ISDN4BSD is expected to run on FreeBSD-current.

NetBSD:
	Martin has NetBSD/i386 1.3 running and is supporting ISDN4BSD for
	that platform when his time permits it.

OpenBSD:
	Currently unsupported. Providing support for it should be
	easy [ hint: convert all "#ifdef __NetBSD__" occurences to
	"#if defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__OpenBSD__)" and half of
	the required work has been done ;-) ]. Noone of the current
	isdn4bsd developers run OpenBSD, so the port has to be done
	by someone actually running OpenBSD.


4. NetBSD and ISDN4BSD
----------------------
The NetBSD specific support and the Diehl driver was written by Martin 
Husemann, (martin@rumolt.teuto.de). Since i do not intend to run NetBSD
and/or Diehl cards, i suggest contacting him in case of problems in this
two areas.


5. Where do i find documentation for ISDN4BSD ?
-----------------------------------------------
There are manual pages available which are part of i4b, please read them
(hint: try "apropos isdn4bsd"). Further there are installation instructions
in the file INSTALLATION (uder the FreeBSD and NetBSD directories) and some
other docs in the misc directory. If you are looking for something which is
not documented, you are lucky because you have the sources to look at.


6. How do i install ISDN4BSD ?
------------------------------
Read the instructions in the file {FreeBSD|NetBSD}/INSTALLATION. In case they
are incomplete, wrong or outdated, please send me an update for inclusion into
a future distribution.


7. Where do i get support for ISDN4BSD ?
----------------------------------------
I will support and help with ISDN4BSD as my time permits it. Please 
keep in mind that in this case support is given on a voluntary basis
and your questions might not be answered immediately.

Also, i recommend subscribing to the mailing list mentioned below.

Due to the experience gained supporting the predecessor of ISDN4BSD, let
me please clearly state that there is no guarantee that your bug will be
fixed within some specific amount of time, in fact there is no guarantee 
that your bug will be fixed at all; i'll do my best but there might be
more important things going on in my life than giving free support for
ISDN4BSD. Some bugs seem to occur only in certain environments and are
not reproducable here without access to the equipment you are connected
to or other equipment like PBX simulators: in this case you are the only
person being able to trace down the bug and fix it.

In case you want payed support, maintenance, enhancements or extensions 
to ISDN4BSD, it is possible to hire me for reasonable rates though my
employer; in this case please contact me for details at hm@hcs.de.


8. How can i help and/or support ISDN4BSD ?
-------------------------------------------
I'd really like to hear from you. I'm open for suggestions, bugreports,
fixes, patches, enhancements and comments to improve ISDN4BSD. Please 
direct everything else to /dev/null or start writing your own ISDN package.

ISDN4BSD is a project on a voluntary basis but writing and supporting
communication systems like ISDN4BSD costs money and much time.

Any contribution in terms of equipment, cards, documentation, cash
and/or daytime payed work on ISDN4BSD would be highly appreciated.

You can help by not only reporting bugs, but by sending in a patch for
the problem together with a bugreport.

In case you cannot fix something yourself, please describe your problem
as detailed as possible, include information which version of an operating
system you are running, which ISDN board you are using, to which kind
of ISDN equipment (like the brand of PBX) you are connected etc. etc.

In case you want to get a currently unsupported card supported, write a
lowlevel driver for it yourself and submit it. In case you can't write
it yourself there is a good chance to get it supported if you can donate
one of those cards and - if at all possible - docs for it.


9. How do i report bugs ?
-------------------------
Please submit patches ONLY as context diffs (diff -c)!

I vastly prefer receiving bug fixes and enhancements that are clearly
differentiated. I don't always know what to do with large patches that
contain many bugs and enhances folded into the same context diffs. 

Please keep it to one fix or enhancement per patch!

If your change modifies the external interface of an ISDN4BSD module, 
i.e. more config options, command-line switches, new programs, etc., 
then please also include patches for the manual pages and documentation.

Incomplete and/or undifferentiated patches will greatly lower their
priority for consideration!

Thank you!


10. Is there a mailinglist available for ISDN4BSD ?
---------------------------------------------------
There is a mailing list available at

        freebsd-isdn@freebsd.org

The list is maintained by majordomo, so i.e. to subscribe,
send a mail with the text

        subscribe freebsd-isdn
        
in the message body sent to

        majordomo@freebsd.org


11. Where can i get ISDN4BSD ?
------------------------------

The ISDN4BSD package is available from:

	isdn4bsd@ftp.consol.de/pub
	--------------------------

you have to log in as user

	isdn4bsd
	--------

and give your mail address as the password. Then change to the "pub" 
directory. 

Anonymous ftp as user "ftp" or "anonymous" will NOT (!) give the desired
result !

This is a sample session:

	$ ftp ftp.consol.de
	Connected to stage.consol.de.
	220 ProFTPD 1.0.0 Server (ConSol* Data Exchange) [stage]
	Name (ftp.consol.de:root): isdn4bsd
	331 Anonymous login ok, send your complete e-mail address as password.
	Password:
	230 Anonymous access granted, restrictions apply.
	Remote system type is UNIX.
	Using binary mode to transfer files.
	ftp> cd pub
	250 CWD command successful.
	ftp>

You will find the ISDN4BSD packages with the following naming conventions:

	i4b-RR.VV-{alpha|beta|rel}-DDMMYY.tgz

for example:

	i4b-00.30-alpha-200298.tgz	an alpha release from Feb, 20 1998

	i4b-00.50-beta-200398.tgz	a beta release from March, 20 1998

	i4b-01.00-rel-290299.tgz	a release from Feb, 29 1999



Have fun,
hellmuth

[ PS: if you like and use isdn4bsd, please send me a postcard :-) ]

/* EOF */


hellmuth
-- 
Hellmuth Michaelis                hm@kts.org                   Hamburg, Europe
                    "Those who can, do. Those who can't, talk.
             And those who can't talk, talk about talking." (B. Shaw)

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar  8 14:04:41 1998
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar  8 14:28:59 1998
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Date: Sun, 08 Mar 98 16:23:51 +0000
To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
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Subject: Doc not clear on Future Domain SCSI controller
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Ref: FreeBSD 2.2.1, install and Future Domain SCSI controller on Media 
Vision sound card.

The documentation says that the Future Domain 950 SCSI controller is 
supported, but doesn't make it clear which controller to use.  Through 
some trial and error, I finally made the 'sea0' (ST01/ST02) controller 
work.  I'm not sure if that's the best or only way to make the FD950 
work.  Anyway, the doc could use a clarification there. (Unless, of 
course, I just missed it.)

Alan


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To: <freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: handbook
Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:39:55 -0000
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how do I go about obtaining the handbook, if at all possible.
thanks
Waks


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>how do I go about obtaining the =
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar  9 01:11:12 1998
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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:10:20 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: waks <waks@easynet.co.uk>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: handbook
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On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 04:39:55AM -0000, waks wrote:
> how do I go about obtaining the handbook, if at all possible.

http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/

gives you the most recent version in HTML-form (I believe it is
updated hourly; more than daily, at least).

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar  9 12:26:22 1998
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From: Albert School <aschool@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: DocBook, SGML...Newbie Question
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Hi,

I was interested in information re: how people have got started writing SGML
documents.  I have some contributions to the handbook and thought it would
make things easier on the "DocTeam" if my document was submitted as SGML.
Right now I'm looking at emacs sgml mode...and memorizing the docbook
package files. 

It doesn't look quite as easy as going out and buying FrontPage 98 from the
commercial wholesale/retail syndicate. 8-) 

Albert

-------------------------------------------------
Albert School
aschool@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
-------------------------------------------------


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar  9 14:17:05 1998
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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 14:13:08 -0800
To: "Oliver J. Albrecht" <olli@SPIKE.ALLCON.NET>, guard-talk@internic.net,
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From: Jerome Culet JD <jculet@slip.net>
Subject: Re: PGP Auth Scheme - Internic PGP Keyserver
Cc: hostmaster@internic.net, goeran@allcon.net
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:48 PM 03/09/98 +0100, Oliver J. Albrecht wrote:
>Hi,
>
>for *weeks* I´ve been asking on guard-talk, sending mail to
>hostmaster@internic.net etc. why domain modifies, host
>templates, handle updates etc.. etc.. are rejected with
>various PGP errors (can´t read key, can´t verify signature).
>Several times our keys were even missing from the keyserver
>and I had to add them again.
>I´ve gotten exactly zero responses from hostmaster@internic.net,
>and no useful replies via the inquiries to the list.
>Altogether I sent almost 200 templates during the past weeks,
>of which a handful lead to a successful transaction.
>So tonight I decided to give Network Solutions a call
>and spent 10 minutes on (703) 742-4777 for someone to answer.
>Well, guess what the answer was in the end...
>The PGP keyserver is fubar and I was told operation would
>probably not be restored. I was advised to swith to mail from
>or crypt-pw authentication.
>Why the hell isn´t this mentioned on rs.internic.net? Why the
>hell doesn´t someone reply to the mails I send hostmaster
>and tell me that the PGP server is broken? Is it actually true
>that Network Solutions isn´t even trying to fix it?
>I´m severely pissed off, this has cost me hours and hours of
>my worktime and even more hours of sleep.
>IMHO the attitude Network Solutions is showing seems to be
>*severely* lacking. Furthermore, a company that is unable to
>fix something as simple as a pgp server is not worth to be
>called "Network Solutions".
>
>Oliver
>
>--
>Oliver J. Albrecht      Allcon GmbH        http://www.allcon.net/
>Network Administration  Westerallee 139    Tel:  +49 461 90393-0
>olli@spike.allcon.net   D-24941 Flensburg  Fax:  +49 461 90393-33
>
>
>-- 
>GUARD-TALK administrivia should be sent to <listserv@lists.internic.net>
>To unsubscribe send a message with only one line "SIGNOFF GUARD-TALK"
>For more help regarding Listserv commands send the one line "HELP"
>
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.5
Comment: Defend The Constitution!

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y0O8Zr6+9RjXQj08XYkgKbf6gP38wdfLriLo0GJh1L8LtQZE53pi66JjuXixgXWt
2jN/kMmEQ6ylHGtHKDVDqpxJP3suVN78j1XoyttR3B9TS42Wo5TIE2FGihUfUeF9
odLw++qaZntl7wW+jnTteyAsXpV+IDzrOMfCPQIj7egwLXVYYRMOIBHFs2LB8/ns
/9KACKMvQEhKGALTEQagnWWvelJ0Ky7TkguwYbNCu+MTIn6Jb3SjoX/JzbRd8xrd
xr6xyothqY9J3tKipKJeXYlTWqNw0wpubIAvfYsLB9vdpmDYlm6TBg==
=nrc7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar  9 18:36:19 1998
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Subject: FD_SETSIZE and freeBSD 2.2.5
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 02:28:48 -0000
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Hi,
we are running freeBSD 2.2.5. (and very good it is too: fast and stable)
We are about to connect apache to a mysql database. This will require   2 
file descriptors (for the mysql process) per apache child. Reading   the 
apache documentation suggests there may be a problem which limits the 
number of file descriptors per process to 256 regardless of the current 
settings of limit:
  >  > (from apache documentation concerning FreeBSD)  > If you are using a 
version of 2.1-stable from after 1997/03/10 or 2.2 or 3.0-current from 
before 1997/06/28,  there is a limit in the resolver library that prevents 
it from using more file descriptors than what FD_SETSIZE is set to when 
libc is  compiled. To increase this, you have to recompile libc with a 
higher  FD_SETSIZE.
Does this apply to freeBSD 2.2.5? And if so, how do I recompile libc 
safely?

Thanks,
Jason




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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 10 00:49:13 1998
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help


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 10 02:15:00 1998
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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:13:44 +0000
To: Albert School <aschool@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: DocBook, SGML...Newbie Question
References: <01IUGQVVKC4Y8X125F@hermes.medctr.ohio-state.EDU>
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On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 01:56:16PM -0500, Albert School wrote:
> I was interested in information re: how people have got started writing SGML
> documents.  

Emacs + PSGML, the DocBook DTD, lots of example files to look at and a few
late nights.

Oh, and the help and advice of John Fieber.

> I have some contributions to the handbook and thought it would
> make things easier on the "DocTeam" if my document was submitted as SGML.

Indeed it would.

> It doesn't look quite as easy as going out and buying FrontPage 98 from the
> commercial wholesale/retail syndicate. 8-) 

Very true, but it's more effective.

Can I point you at the following two URLs, both of which are very useful
when getting to grips with DocBook and SGML:

    <URL:http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber/docbook/> 
    <URL:http://nis-www.lanl.gov/~rosalia/mydocs/docbook-intro.html>

Also, take a look at 

    <URL:http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/>

where you'll find links to a couple of documents I've put together with an
HTML rendering and the original SGML source. One of them (the 'make world'
tutorial) can also be downloaded as a tar.gz file that includes a sample
Makefile that *should* help you get started on the actual conversion
process.

I'm going to try and put together more of a tutorial over the next few
weeks. If you get the opportunity to make any notes as you're learning
this stuff, please pass them on.

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 10 02:40:15 1998
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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:40:09 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: nik@iii.co.uk, Albert School <aschool@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: DocBook, SGML...Newbie Question
References: <01IUGQVVKC4Y8X125F@hermes.medctr.ohio-state.EDU> <19980310101344.39601@iii.co.uk>
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On Tue, Mar 10, 1998 at 10:13:44AM +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> I'm going to try and put together more of a tutorial over the next few
> weeks. If you get the opportunity to make any notes as you're learning
> this stuff, please pass them on.

Notes:
	Finding DSSSL stylesheets for DocBook is quite a bit of work.
	They're at
		http://www.berkshire.net/~norm/docbook/dsssl/index.html

	The TeX generated by Jade should probably change.  More work
	should happen in the DSSSL end instead of the TeX end.

	jadetex is difficult to install, and might be a good candidate
	for a port.  Problem: I can't do a port, as I wasn't able to
	ever get it to work properly.

	It is not trivial to find a good conversion from DocBook to
	printed matter.  No publically available conversion system
	seems to handle screenshots.

	DocBook is difficult to get into.  It would probably be
	beneficial for FreeBSD to have a 'limited set' markup that can
	be used by beginners to actually get them to write
	documentation, instead of having them struggle with learning
	DocBook.  This format should be able to produce decent quality
	output, but not be as flexible or as good as DocBook.
	Conversion could be done when the author feel up to it (or
	some old hand feel like actually doing it).


These are off the top of my head; I'll try to find my actual notes,
too.

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 10 03:37:30 1998
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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:37:01 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Albert School <aschool@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: DocBook, SGML...Newbie Question
References: <01IUGQVVKC4Y8X125F@hermes.medctr.ohio-state.EDU>
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On Mon, Mar 09, 1998 at 01:56:16PM -0500, Albert School wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I was interested in information re: how people have got started writing SGML
> documents.  I have some contributions to the handbook and thought it would
> make things easier on the "DocTeam" if my document was submitted as SGML.
> Right now I'm looking at emacs sgml mode...and memorizing the docbook
> package files. 

I'm probably the only one round here still saying "SGM-what?!" but there's
some general introductory SGML links on this page that speak at my level.
(Ignore the HTML references ad lib.)

http://www.awpa.asn.au/sgml/


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

find / -name "*.conf" |more


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 10 04:25:23 1998
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To: nik@iii.co.uk
Cc: Albert School <aschool@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: DocBook, SGML...Newbie Question
References: <01IUGQVVKC4Y8X125F@hermes.medctr.ohio-state.EDU> <19980310101344.39601@iii.co.uk>
From: Thomas Gellekum <tg@ihf.rwth-aachen.de>
Date: 10 Mar 1998 13:24:31 +0100
In-Reply-To: nik@iii.co.uk's message of Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:13:44 +0000
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nik@iii.co.uk writes:

>     <URL:http://nis-www.lanl.gov/~rosalia/mydocs/docbook-intro.html>

Nice example. This comes up empty in lynx. :-)

tg

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 10 08:24:40 1998
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Subject: Suggestion about HCL
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:02:53 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BD4C14.132F8460
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hello,
       I was very surprised not to see the Video card in the hardware =
compatibility list @ http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/FAQ42.html#hardware .   =
I think display is one of the most problemetic Hardware piece to =
configure under UNIX environment (at least to me).  I've tried Linux, =
gave up and Now trying FreeBSD.  Although this isn't the latest version =
(I have 2.2.2), I doubt there's anything signefican't to make my =
Creative Lab's Graphic Blaster 4MB to work.  Anyhow, I thought I should =
suggest you to have video in the HCL.   This is very important.

Thanks.

impu

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
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<HEAD>

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
I was very=20
surprised not to see the Video card in the hardware compatibility list @ =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/FAQ42.html#hardware">http://www.freebs=
d.org/FAQ/FAQ42.html#hardware</A>=20
.&nbsp;&nbsp; I think display is one of the most problemetic Hardware =
piece to=20
configure under UNIX environment (at least to me).&nbsp; I've tried =
Linux, gave=20
up and Now trying FreeBSD.&nbsp; Although this isn't the latest version =
(I have=20
2.2.2), I doubt there's anything signefican't to make my Creative Lab's =
Graphic=20
Blaster 4MB to work.&nbsp; Anyhow, I thought I should suggest you to =
have video=20
in the HCL.&nbsp;&nbsp; This is very important.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>impu</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 10 11:48:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:52:41 -0800
From: James Patton Jones <jjpjones@concentric.net>
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Is your query-pr-summary-cgi program available anywhere
for other to download and use? we use gnats to tracks
change requests for some software, and I really like you
web-interface to it. Can I get a copy of the cgi code?

thanks in advance,

-James

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
James Patton Jones                       Phone/VM: 408-271-5803
MRJ Technology Solutions                 Email: jpjones@mrj.com

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 11 07:10:18 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:08:23 +0200
From: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
To: nik@iii.co.uk, alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu
Cc: Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list)
Mail-Followup-To: nik@iii.co.uk, alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu,
	Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>,
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References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk>
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Hi...

On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 09:57:48PM +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> In the pipeline. When we've got the translation to DocBook sorted out
> (which hopefully won't be too far away) it's a (relatively) trivial 
> matter to turn the documentation into a multitude of formats.
> 
> Watch this space.

Is there going to be any reorganisation of the FAQ and Handbook while this
transition is in progress? It would seem like the right time to me to start
messing with the ordering while your changing all the codes and making big
diffs.

I printed out the FAQ a while back in the hope of getting down to doing a
technical/language edit of it (because its smaller than the handbook :), but
I found that I kept wanting to move chapters around. Is there any published
statement of purpose for the two documents? What makes them different, what
should they cover, etc. I would think that the handbook would be a fairly
static document (excepting big changes in the system :), and the FAQ would
cover the day to day issues like which hardware is supported/recommended,
and such things, but it almost seems to be the other way around. I remember
something from Jordan a while back saying that the handbook was the place
for activity?

Also, both the FAQ and handbook have statements to the effect that they are
only for the latest release version and then volumes of text which applies
to all releases and to current.

I personally would think that any question which lasts over 6 months in the
FAQ is stale and should be properly documented somewhere else.

In a month or so I should have enough time to get back into the editing
process. Do you think that the docbook transition will be done by then?
because I'd rather not do the work twice...

Regards,
 -Jeremy

-- 
  |   "In this world of temptation, I will stand for what is right.
--+--  With a heart of salvation, I will hold up the light.
  |    If I live or if I die, if I laugh or if I cry,
  |    in this world of temptation, I will stand." -Pam Thum

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 11 07:27:05 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:25:40 +0000
To: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
Cc: alexandr@hawk.pearson.udel.edu,
        Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>,
        freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list)
References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk> <19980311170823.64512@shale.csir.co.za>
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On Wed, Mar 11, 1998 at 05:08:23PM +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 05, 1998 at 09:57:48PM +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> > In the pipeline. When we've got the translation to DocBook sorted out
> > (which hopefully won't be too far away) it's a (relatively) trivial 
> > matter to turn the documentation into a multitude of formats.
> > 
> > Watch this space.
> 
> Is there going to be any reorganisation of the FAQ and Handbook while this
> transition is in progress? 

Short answer:

The physical organisation will probably change slightly (i.e., the location
of the SGML files in the filesystem might move about a bit).

However, for the *immediate* term, the content will stay the same.

> It would seem like the right time to me to start
> messing with the ordering while your changing all the codes and making big
> diffs.

It's actually the wrong time. This is largely to keep things as simple as
possible for the guys doing the Japanese translation of the Handbook 
(I'm thinking about the DocBook transformation for the FAQ, but my ideas 
there are sketchy at best at the moment, I haven't written them down properly).

Basically, any commits to the handbook/FAQ should either be markup changes
or content changes. But not both in the same commit.

> I printed out the FAQ a while back in the hope of getting down to doing a
> technical/language edit of it (because its smaller than the handbook :), but
> I found that I kept wanting to move chapters around. Is there any published
> statement of purpose for the two documents? What makes them different, what
> should they cover, etc. I would think that the handbook would be a fairly
> static document (excepting big changes in the system :), and the FAQ would
> cover the day to day issues like which hardware is supported/recommended,
> and such things, but it almost seems to be the other way around. I remember
> something from Jordan a while back saying that the handbook was the place
> for activity?

AFAIK, there isn't. Peter da Silva appears to have dropped off the face
of the planet (apologies if you are reading this Peter, but you haven't
responded to any of my e-mails over the past month or so).

> Also, both the FAQ and handbook have statements to the effect that they are
> only for the latest release version and then volumes of text which applies
> to all releases and to current.

True. This is something I'm thinking of addressing at the SGML level, where
content is tagged (or marked, more likely) as being either specific to a
particular set of FreeBSD versions, or version independent. This would
then allow the creation of Handbooks/FAQs that just contain the information
for a particular version of FreeBSD.

The precise implementation of this mechanism is not something I've settled
on yet (in fact, I don't think I've mentioned it here yet, because at the
moment it's just something I'm kicking around at the back of my mind).

> I personally would think that any question which lasts over 6 months in the
> FAQ is stale and should be properly documented somewhere else.

Disagree. It might be there because it is frequently asked. However, I 
don't doubt that some of the FAQ answers should probably consist of

    This question is answered in section 'x' of the FreeBSD handbook.

with appropriate links.
 
> In a month or so I should have enough time to get back into the editing
> process. Do you think that the docbook transition will be done by then?
> because I'd rather not do the work twice...

I hope it will be. Right now I'm just waiting for someone from the Japanese
team to get back to me about some issues regarding the DocBook conversion.

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 11 08:21:24 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:20:33 +0200
From: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>
To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list)
References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304131036.44077@shale.csir.co.za> <19980306191229.06394@freebie.lemis.com>
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Hi...

On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 07:12:29PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wed,  4 March 1998 at 13:10:36 +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote:
> > This is going to sound really nasty, but it's not meant that way...
> 
> Go for it.

Had a long weekend away and now I feel much less like buying the shotgun. :)

> I think you misunderstand me.  Obviously the work with sed has to be
> done before making the CD.

If it's a one line patch then shouldn't it just go into bsd.doc.mk and
happen every time?

I've noticed that people in the US tend to think very much in terms of the
CD distribution of FreeBSD. Out in the backwaters of this virtual urban
sprawl the CD is not very easy to come by and ordering it is quite pricey.
People here tend to think a lot more in terms of FTP. There are 10 times as
many mirrors outside the US as inside...

> > Your opinion doesn't count. 
> 
> Yes it does!

:) Good thing I put that disclaimer in... Think I got my point across
though. :)

> No problems there.  My problem is that there has to be something
> better than the current html, which, as other people have observed, is
> difficult to handle.
> 
> While writing my book, I spent a lot of time reading the handbook,
> initially the HTML version.  It wasn't until I went to reading the
> ASCII version that I discovered a whole lot of stuff that I hadn't
> found in the HTML.  This is more a problem of the handbook than the
> medium, but the medium encourages it: excellent random access and
> appalling sequential access.  I'd suggest that we try to reduce the
> number of pages and increase their size (and still keep the links, of
> course).  One page per chapter sounds reasonable.

I agree... Personally I think HTML is a mess. It should never have been a
content based markup format... it should have been a platform independent
display format and left the content stuff to background SGML like docbook.
But well you can't change history. HTML and it's successors are here to
stay.

Making the HTML pages longer is a good idea. So, I think, is making the
printable versions shorter (one section per file). But I think there is more
needed in terms of restructuring the documents, and pitching them at a
broader audience. An idea I liked was that used in the online Java book at
java.sun.com, which uses "trails", which you can follow through. Maybe
something like this would work. In the online version it would be hypertext
and in the printed version it could use small icons. There could be a "new
user", "ISP", "workstation", "Quake" :), etc. trails for the various
segments of the users to walk though, so that experienced users could skip
the hand-holding... I'd have to think the idea through a bit with a copy of
the handbook in front of me.

> > The thing which I really don't like about the Unix world is that it
> > sucks you in... This package depends on that package, which is
> > really doing the same job as another package, which you need for
> > something else... you can't ever talk of a minimum install.
> 
> Sounds like your description of Win95 in the previous paragraph.

Yes, in hindsight I suppose that there are really two separate worlds out
there. Now that I'm getting used to have control over my computer again I
wont give it up. Also, having lots of packages that do the same thing means
having a choice. But it chews up your free space... But it you where to have
a collection like the ports collection under Windows you would find that
there would be a lot less dependencies. Everything is designed to install
onto a clean platform.

Don't get me wrong... I don't like Windows... it has it's good points (nice
and friendly, etc.), but it has some "features" which really bite you.

Anyway, I'm willing to pitch in and work on some doc stuff (in a few weeks
;). I don't know how good my writing is, and I don't think I'm an expert in
anything... but I like to edit and format documents. If you need a hand
changing things into docbook then I should be able to help. I also split my
time between FreeBSD and Win95 so I can try a lot of things out and I have
access to almost any software to test stuff.

Regards,
 -Jeremy

-- 
  |   "In this world of temptation, I will stand for what is right.
--+--  With a heart of salvation, I will hold up the light.
  |    If I live or if I die, if I laugh or if I cry,
  |    in this world of temptation, I will stand." -Pam Thum

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 11 11:17:43 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:19:09 -0800
From: David Jonathan <david@znyx.com>
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Hello,

Your http://freebird.org/handbook/handbook10.html#10  refers to "Zynx"
ethernet cards.

The spelling should be Znyx  (see www.znyx.com).

Thanks.

-David



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 11 19:22:49 1998
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Hi,
  are there any commercial grade RDBMS's that
run on FreeBSD?

-- 
Steve Tarkalson
Software Engineer
Atlas Telecom
Portland, OR

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 11 19:25:45 1998
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Hi,
  
  are there any commercial grade RDBMS's that
run on FreeBSD?

-- 
Steve Tarkalson
Software Engineer
Atlas Telecom
Portland, OR

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 12 07:32:41 1998
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I'd like to mirror the http://www.freebsd.org/FAQ/ directory.  The URL will
be http://www.noguska.net/linux/freebsd/FAQ/ .  Please contact me if this
is a problem, the mirror will be ran nightly.

Thank you,
Ryan Fox
rfox@noguska.com


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 12 12:47:34 1998
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I would like to install FreeBSD on my Pentium 200MMX.
The floppy disk image that a Windows95 based PC is supposed to transfer
to a floppy is at an ftp site. 

In Netscape I clicked on and downloaded fdimage.exe with no problem.
Then right after, I clicked on the link for the image, the image was
written to my screen. I know the specific instructions say save it don't
display it. I may have a problem with Netscape. (I also have lots of
problems with the software running under Windows95.) You possibly could
make life easier for some others by making the disk image downloadable
in some other way.

Thanks for your efforts.
Roland

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 12 18:08:25 1998
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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:08:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Monte Mitzelfelt <monte@sturgeon.gonefishing.org>
To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: 17.2.5. Porting an existing piece of free software
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In 17.2.5.1. Before Starting the Port, a snippet of pre-processor code
reads:
    #ifdef (defined(__unix__) || defined(unix)) && !defined(USG)
    #include <sys/param.h>
    #endif

I believe this should be:
    #if (defined(__unix__) || defined(unix)) && !defined(USG)
    #include <sys/param.h>
    #endif

Thanks,
Monte Mitzelfelt



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 12 20:48:32 1998
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subscribe FREEBSD-DOC personal@unixonline.com


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 13 08:51:50 1998
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References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk> <19980311170823.64512@shale.csir.co.za> <19980311152540.43318@iii.co.uk>
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nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> I hope it will be. Right now I'm just waiting for someone from the Japanese
> team to get back to me about some issues regarding the DocBook conversion.

  Is it "Whether there is a problem to treat Japanese with DocBook or
not?" that you say?


-- 
Jun Kuriyama // kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 13 09:05:36 1998
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Subject: Re: Convert to DocBook (was Re: ps2pdf)
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On Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 01:10:41AM +0900, Jun Kuriyama wrote:
> nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> > I hope it will be. Right now I'm just waiting for someone from the Japanese
> > team to get back to me about some issues regarding the DocBook conversion.
> 
>   Is it "Whether there is a problem to treat Japanese with DocBook or
> not?" that you say?

No. Well, not quite.

What follows is part of a message I've sent to a couple of people, which 
covers the situation pretty much as I see it.

My specific questions are:

  1. Has anyone on the Japanese side used Jade to process SGML with
     the japanese characters suitably encoded? Did it work?

  2. Do you see any problems with the approach used (i.e., a series of
     commits, each one concerning itself with just one structural change,
     and those changes automated where ever possible)?

Comments on this welcome (to nik@freebsd.org if possible, I've set the
reply-to header accordingly).

  I've been working on getting the handbook converted from the LinuxDoc
  DTD to DocBook, cleaning up the markup, reorganising the file structure
  and so on.

  Inevitably, this is going to have a large impact on the work you (and
  others) have been doing to get the handbook translated. 

  Before I start actually doing anything serious (and coming close to
  comitting stuff) I reckon I need to work out the issues involved with
  you (and anyone else you think needs to be brought in on this) to 
  ensure that the process is as painless for all involved as possible.

  To give you some idea of what this entails, here's an outline of where 
  I am at the moment.

  Trying to convert the handbook from LinuxDoc to DocBook on a file
  by file basis won't work. At least, not without an immense amount of
  grief.

  Instead, the aim is to use John Fieber's linuxdoc-docbook translation
  specification and the 'instant' program to do the conversion. This has
  a number of 'interesting' consequences.

    1. All the entities will be expanded during the conversion, so things
       like &a.jkh; will be lost.

       I have a work around for this, it's not a problem.

    2. All the comments in the individual source files will be lost. This
       is (potentially) a problem, since some of those comments contain
       copyright notices, reminders and so forth.

       They will need to be manually added back in.

       I've spent some time trying to see if there's a way to pass the
       comments straight through, but I don't see any way of doing it.

    3. The result of this conversion is a syntactically valid but very
       ugly DocBook file. DocBook is a more expressive markup language 
       than LinuxDoc, but the translation doesn't take advantage of this
       expressiveness (it can't).

    4. The converted file is not (yet) ready to be converted to HTML, 
       some of the entity definitions need putting back.

  However, this process has the one redeeming feature that it's completely
  automatic. This should allow anyone working on a translation to do the
  same thing on the translated version of the document and get similar
  results.

  Once this has been done, the translated file will be cleaned up. So far,
  I've identified the following stages in the clean up process 

    - Reindent the file so that the structure of the document is more
      apparent. This can be automated (in [x]emacs).

    - Reformat ('fill') the paragraphs. Mostly for consistency. This can
      be automated (in [x]emacs).

    - Add in the missing entity definitions. This is things like

          <!ENTITY % authors SYSTEM "authors.sgml">
          %authors;

      which got stripped in the conversion process. This has to be done
      by hand.

    - Replace comments that were in the original files, but have not been
      moved in to this file. This has to be done by hand, but may not
      be necessary (see above).

    - Split this large file out in to its component parts. This split
      does not (and probably should not) correspond with the way the
      handbook is currently split.

      I'm planning on doing this along the lines of the way the handbook
      is logically split at the moment. Each 'part' gets its own 
      directory, and each chapter is a file in that directory. Parameter
      entities can be used (as they are now) to refer to individual files.

      It should be possible to automate this.

    - Add an Emacs local variables section to the first line of each split
      file. This would look something like

 <!-- -*- sgml-parent-document: ("../handbook.sgml" "" "part" "book") -*- -->

      Not strictly necessary, but it does make it easier to handle the 
      document in [x]emacs.

    - Add a DOCTYPE to each of the split files, but do it inside a marked
      section. That way each split file can be processed individually,
      or the entire handbook can be processed as one.

      I see this as benefitting people who want to see what their changes
      to a chapter or part look like, but who don't want to have to 
      regenerate the entire handbook each time they want to test a change.

      This would involve adding something like

          <![ %doctype [
	    <!DOCTYPE CHAPTER PUBLIC "-//Davenport//DTD DocBook V3.0//EN">
	  ]]>

      to the beginning of each split file. When processing the handbook as
      a whole, %doctype would expand to 'IGNORE', but when the user wants
      to process an individual file they would set it to 'INCLUDE'.

      This can (probably) be automated.

  Each one of these steps is a seperate commit.

  Then, go through the converted document, looking for markup that's either
  incorrectly used, or too generic.

  I envisage this happening in stages, with one particular type of markup 
  being examined at a time.

  For example, there are many areas where 

      <emphasis role="tt">/a/file/name</emphasis>

  is used (in the converted document) where

      <filename>/a/file/name</filename>

  would be the correct approach. Each commit would aim to fix all occurences
  of this one problem. So there'd be one commit to fixup filename 
  references, one commit to fixup 'notes', one commit to fixup 'warnings'
  and so on.

  At this point, no content changes have been made to the Handbook, it's
  all markup changes. Hopefully these are easier to track and/or 
  automatically merge (although I can see how that might be problematical).

  I'm planning on all this happening on a separate CVS branch, so it 
  doesn't interfere with the 'live' handbook.

  To convert the handbook to HTML, James Clark's SGML/DSSSL processor
  'jade' will be used, along with Norm Walsh's modular DocBook 
  stylesheets.

  The stylesheets work relatively well, although there are probably a few
  knobs that need tweaking to customise the HTML output. However, I have
  no idea what they'll do when presented with encoded Japanese text. Is
  this something you've looked at?


-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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Hello,
	Can you suggest any FreeBSD complaint real-time database s/w.
thanks

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 13 15:02:01 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:58:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris34343@mci.net
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<P ALIGN=JUSTIFY>
Please accept my apology if this was sent to you in error!

Dear Friend,

The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my 
fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave
some thought and study  to it.

My name is Christopher Erickson. Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was 
eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open 
my
own business, Over the past year, I incurred many unforseen 
financial
problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. 
The
economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem 
to
make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to
support my family and stuggling business. I truly believe it was
wrong for me to be in debt like this. AT THE MOMENT something
significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my 
experience
in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER...FINANCIALLY!!!

In mid December, I received this program via email. Six months 
prior
to receiving this program I had been sending away for information 
on
various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in 
my
opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult 
for
me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to 
risk
to see if they worked or not. One claimed I'd make a million 
dollars
in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make 
it.

But like i was saying, in December of "92" I received this 
program. 
I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a 
mailing 
list. THANKS GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, 
to
make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. 
Here
was a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted 
to
start, without putting me in further debt. After I got a pencil 
and
paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. 
After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I 
decided
"WHY NOT".

Initially I sent out 10,000 emails. It only cost me about $15.00 
for
my time on-line. The great thing about email is that I didn't need 
any
money for printing to send out the program, only the cost to 
fulfill my
orders. I am telling you like it is, i hope it doesn't turn you 
off,
but i promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter 
how
much money it cost me!

In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT 
#1.
By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. When you 
read
the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU MUST RECEIVE 
15
TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T,
SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making
$50,000 in 20 to 90 days was done. By January 30th, I had received
196 orders for REPORT #2. If you go back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN
TWO WEEKS. IF NOT SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY. RELAX, YOU
WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT 
#2,
96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 19th, 
of
my emailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in 
every
day.

I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please 
take
time to read the attached program. IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE 
FOREVER!
Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does 
work,
but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying 
to
place your name in a different place. It doesn't work, you'll lose 
out
on a lot of money! REPORT #2 explains this. Always follow the 
guarantee, 15 to 20 orders of REPORT #1 and 100 or more orders for
REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 20 to 90 days. I AM
LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!!

If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry, It 
really
is a great oppotunity with little cost or risk to you. if you 
choose
to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to
financial security.

If you are a fellow business owner and you are in financial 
trouble
like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this 
a
sign. I DID!

                       Sincerely,
                       Christopher Erickson

P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like 
piled
up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!


"THREW IT AWAY"

"I had received this program before. I threw it away, but later
wondered if i shouldn't have given it a try. of course, I had no 
idea
who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was emailed
another copy of the program. Eleven months passed, then it came. 
I DIDN'T throw this one away. I made $41,000 on the first try."

                          Dawn W., Evensville, IN

"NO FREE LUNCH"

"My late fater always told me, 'remember, Alan there is no free 
lunch
in life. You get out of life what you put into it.' Though trial 
and
error and a somewhat slow frustrating start, I finally figured it 
out.
The program works very well, I just had to find the right target 
group
of people to email to. So far this year, I have made over $63,000
using the program. I know my dad would have been very proud of me"

                          Alan B., Philadelphia, PA


A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over 
the
enclosed programs and reports, you should have concluded that such 
a
program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business 
for
ten years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing
the same things that were previously successful for me, but it 
wasn't
working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the 
economy.
Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had 
been
with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the
unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand 
experience.
There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before.

The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were 
doing
invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those 
who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the 
ranks
of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR 
GET
POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow 
you
to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that.

You have just received information that can give you financial 
freedom
for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT 
OF
EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you 
have
ever imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, 
nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I 
have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the 
U.S. and
overseas. By the spring, we wish to market the "Internet" by a 
partnership with AMERICA ONLINE.

Follow this program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any 
way.
It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to email a copy 
of
this exciting program to everyone you can think of. One of the
people you send this to may send out 50,000... and your name will 
be on
every one of them! Remember though, the more you send out, the 
more
potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials 
and 
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU 
NOW!


"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, 
take
a little to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and
figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you 
will
still make alot of money! Definitely get back what you invested. 
Any
doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT 
WORKS!

                            Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC


HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$$

Let's say you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs 
each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response. Using 
a
good list the response could be much better. Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. 
With a
5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people
respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of total of 
20,000. Out
of those .5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 
mail
out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The .5% response 
to
that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000
programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The .5% response to that is
10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 five dollar bills for 
you
CASH!!!! Your total income in this example is $50.00 + $500.00 +
$5,000.00 + $50,000.00 for a total of $55,550.00!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000. Believe
me, many people will do that and more! By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already 
have
an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT #3 will show 
you the best 
methods for bulk emailing and purchasing email lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY, It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and 
best
of all, you never have to leave your house except to get the mail. 
If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've 
been
waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instuctions, and your
dream will come true. This multi-level email order marketing 
program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME. Email is the sales tool of the
future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!! The longer you wait, the more people will be 
doing
business using email. Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It 
is
being taught in the Harvard business school, and both Stanford 
research
and the Wall street journal have stated that between 50% and 65% 
of all
goods and services will be sold thoughout Multi-Level methods by 
the
mid 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the
500,000 millionares in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune 
in the
last several years in MLM. Moreover statistics show 45 people 
become
millionares everyday through Multi-Level Marketing.


INSTRUCTIONS

We at Erris Mail Order Marketing Business, have a method of 
raising
capital that REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am really sure that 
you
could use $50,000 to $125,000 in the next 20 to 90 days. Before 
you say
"Bull", please read the program carefully.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity. Basically, this is what we do: As with all 
multi-level
business, we build our business by recruiting new partners and 
selling
our products. Every state in the U.S.A. allows you to recruit new 
multi-
level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar 
sent.
YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE MAIL, so you
are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your 
own home,
store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere.

Step (1) Order all 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER. Do this
           by ordering the REPORT from each of the four names 
listed 
           on the next page. For each REPORT, send $5 CASH and a 
SELF-
           ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope (BUSINESS SIZE #10) to the
           person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT. International 
orders
           should also include $1 extra postage. Be sure to 
include
	   your internet address incase of any problems.It is 
essential
           that you specify the NAME and NUMBER of the report 
requested
           to the person you are ordering from. You will need ALL 
FOUR
           REPORTS because you will be REPRINTING and  RESELLING 
them.
           DO NOT alter the names or sequence other than what the
           instructions say. IMPORTANT: Always provide same-day
           service on all orders.

Step (2) Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with
           yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
           Drop the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
           moving the one that was there to REPORT #4. The name 
and 
           address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the 
list
           and this party is in no doubt on the way to the bank. 
When
           doing this, make certain you type the names and
           addresses ACCURATELY! DO NOT MIX UP MOVING 
           PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save 
it
           as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used 
with
           whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will 
tell
           you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring 
email
           lists. You will also receive the address to a website
           to assist you.  Any and all programs needed will be 
available
           free of charge.  Including bulk mailers and email 
collectors.

Step (4) Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
           important) to everyone whose addresses you can get your 
hands
           on. Start with friends and relatives since you can 
encourage 
           them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making
           opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, 
more
           than ever. Then email to anyone and everyone whose 
address
           you collect with the programs available to you at the 
above
           mentioned site. Use your imagination! 


REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE, INTERNET ADDRESS
AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE
SPECIFIC REPORT NAME AND NUMBER

__________________________________________________
REPORT #1
"HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:

D.M.1
2133 Jane St. #5 Box#154
Downsview, Ontario Canada
M3M-1A2
__________________________________________________
REPORT #2
"MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:

R.P. Marketing
1051 Stuyvesant Ave.
Suite 193
Union, New Jersey
      07083

__________________________________________________   
REPORT #3
"SOURCES OF BEST MAILING LISTS"

ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:

Twin Marketing
P.O. Box 673
Harbor City, California
   90710-0673

__________________________________________________
REPORT #4
"EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:

M.O.C. Marketing
P.O. Box 146
Gaithersburg, Maryland
    20884-0146

__________________________________________________ 


CONCLUSION 

I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.
You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the 
SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.

To be financially independent is to be FREE. Free to make 
financial
decisions as never before. Go into business, get into investments,
retire or take a vacation. No longer will a lack of money hold you
back.

However very few people reach financial independence, because when
opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to 
say
"NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. 
Will
YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of 
it?
If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing 
will
change. Please re-read this material, this is a special 
opportunity.

My method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 
that
costs me pennies to produce and mail. I should also point out that
this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make 
money.
This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam. At times you have 
probably
received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but 
getting
NOTHING in return, No product what so-ever! Not only are chain 
letters
illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them 
quite
unattractive.

You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they
purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell 
them.  
It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed 
material,
the PRODUCT is a series of 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.
The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you 
in
making your participation in this program more rewarding, but it 
will be usefull
to you in any other business decisions you make in the years 
ahead.
You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, 
which
will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. 
The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copt center for a cost of about 3 cents a 
copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!


"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up 
my
mind to participate in this program. But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was 
no way
that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back. 
BOY
was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders! I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

                               Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI


TIPS FOR SUCCESS

Send for you four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when 
the
orders start coming in. When you receive $5 order, you MUST send 
out
the product/service to comply with U.S. Postal and Lottery laws. 
Title
18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR
SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

IMPORTANT: WHEN SENDING A SELF ADDRESSED, STAMPED
EVELOPE, IF MAILING TO A DIFFERENT COUNTRY, PURCHASE
AN I.R.C (INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE COUPON). DO NOT
SEND POSTAGE FROM YOUR COUNTRY OR THE PERSON
FROM THE OTHER COUNTRY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE
THAT POSTAGE.

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.

2. Get a post office box (preffered)

3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,
    your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and all the others 
all
    move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.

4. Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you
    receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT 
#3.

5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The
    more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
    you will make.

6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill orders.

7. Copy the 4 REPORTS so you are able to send them out as
    soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
    SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.


YOUR GUARANTEE

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: You 
must
receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you 
don't 
within 2 weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a 
couple
of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT 
#2, if
you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have 
received 
100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit 
back
and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000.
Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. One of those who have
participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL 
have
reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, everytime your name is
moved down the list you are infront of a different REPORT, so you 
can
keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering 
from you,
IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY IT IS!!!

REMEMBER:
"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR
SEARCH FOR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."
</P></PRE></HTML>

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 13 21:34:38 1998
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Message-Id: <199803140533.VAA00861@northwest.com>
To: Doug White <dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, Aleksey Zvyagin <zal@rest.ru>,
        freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Help! Upgrade 2.2.5-RELEASE to 2.2-STABLE. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:31:44 PST."
             <Pine.BSF.3.96.980313193002.19404U-100000@gdi.uoregon.edu> 
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:33:02 -0800
From: Stephen Wynne <stevemw@northwest.com>
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In message <Pine.BSF.3.96.980313193002.19404U-100000@gdi.uoregon.edu>,
Doug White writes:

    Speaking of FAQ, it may be useful to do some preemptive customer support
    and add a FAQ question for it [the new slice bits].

Oh, and regarding cvs-up documentation in general, I think that
a strong pointer in /usr/src/README to
http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/make-world/make-world.html
(which is actually referenced from http://www.freebsd.org/docs.html) would
be *very* useful. I had already begun my first cvsup by the time I found
this. (I was lucky to have picked most of the right things to do already,
and the defaults worked out nicely for me.)

Why is this so obvious? Becase the unsuspecting but intuitive user
will just drop into /usr/src and want to know what to do in 15
easy steps. That's not easy to do with the 2.2.5 files :-)

Also, the tutorial could point to the latest warnings about each
release. I had to get subscribed to freebsd-latest to start getting
an idea what was really happening, and I think this isn't exactly
what the average user wants to do.

Instead of asking users to subscribe to freebsd-stable@freebsd.org,
perhaps a continually-updated webpage with issues raised there would
be better. Maybe this would take too much time for the engineers involved
with maintaining the release. In that case, I apologize and retract
my suggestion.

And I think there should be a default cvsup file in /usr/src that
lets people stay on *-stable with comments that contain a cron(8)
script that people can cut and paste to begin using.

One final suggestion: we need better information about how long it
will take us to do various CVS operations. Perhaps cvsup could
be modified to provide this, or estimates for 28.8, 56k, and T1
speeds in a table of operations could be provided. I know this
is a FAQ from spending some time on EFNet's #java IRC channel.

My reaction to the FreeBSD documentation is more or less ``it's all there,
but finding it is non-intuitive sometimes.'' If I sound like I'm
complaining, I'm not. I'm very happy, in fact. I've been around long
enough to know that FreeBSD is a superbly organized effort.

Regards,

Steve

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sat Mar 14 07:10:59 1998
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    I just put a 3d 16 bit sound card in my computer an i cann't get the desk
mike to work.It doesn't like me make my own sound waves in windows could you
help in this matter.
    The book that came with the card says it's advanced 3d stereo 16 bit sound
card,an i cann't find any iformation on the desk mike.
                         thanks ken harden

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sat Mar 14 08:55:46 1998
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I would be interested is subscribing to this mailing list.
mbueide@ricochet.net



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sat Mar 14 15:09:46 1998
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From: Doug White <dwhite@gdi.uoregon.edu>
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To: Stephen Wynne <stevemw@northwest.com>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, Aleksey Zvyagin <zal@rest.ru>,
        freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Help! Upgrade 2.2.5-RELEASE to 2.2-STABLE. 
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On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, Stephen Wynne wrote:

> In message <Pine.BSF.3.96.980313193002.19404U-100000@gdi.uoregon.edu>,
> Doug White writes:
> 
>     Speaking of FAQ, it may be useful to do some preemptive customer support
>     and add a FAQ question for it [the new slice bits].
> 
> Oh, and regarding cvs-up documentation in general, I think that
> a strong pointer in /usr/src/README to
> http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/make-world/make-world.html
> (which is actually referenced from http://www.freebsd.org/docs.html) would
> be *very* useful. I had already begun my first cvsup by the time I found
> this. (I was lucky to have picked most of the right things to do already,
> and the defaults worked out nicely for me.)

I think that link has migrated to www.freebsd.org/tutorials/.  I like the
idea though; care to volunteer a prototype README?  :-)

> Also, the tutorial could point to the latest warnings about each
> release. I had to get subscribed to freebsd-latest to start getting
> an idea what was really happening, and I think this isn't exactly
> what the average user wants to do.

Ideally, that's what the RELNOTES.TXT file is for.  Of course, nobody
reads those files :(

> Instead of asking users to subscribe to freebsd-stable@freebsd.org,
> perhaps a continually-updated webpage with issues raised there would
> be better. Maybe this would take too much time for the engineers involved
> with maintaining the release. In that case, I apologize and retract
> my suggestion.

-stable, like -current, is a dynamic animal.  In an ideal universe, no one
would bring in potentially-breaking changes into -stable without lots of
fanfare.  It would be nice to have a webpage but even -stable changes too
fast to keep it accurate. The handy thing about mailing lists is that they
stay current with the pace of development.

An enterprising person could keep tabs on -stable and set up a web page
copying all the major announcements to that page.  I don't think the
actual developers could keep this up, but another close -stable monitor
could.

> And I think there should be a default cvsup file in /usr/src that
> lets people stay on *-stable with comments that contain a cron(8)
> script that people can cut and paste to begin using.

I'm waiting for send-pr to start up on your box :)

> One final suggestion: we need better information about how long it
> will take us to do various CVS operations. Perhaps cvsup could
> be modified to provide this, or estimates for 28.8, 56k, and T1
> speeds in a table of operations could be provided. I know this
> is a FAQ from spending some time on EFNet's #java IRC channel.

This depends on a per-person basis.  Estimating speeds of network links is
bound to get you in trouble.  Rough estimates of `worldstone' speeds by
CPU would be good web fodder, though.

> My reaction to the FreeBSD documentation is more or less ``it's all there,
> but finding it is non-intuitive sometimes.'' If I sound like I'm
> complaining, I'm not. I'm very happy, in fact. I've been around long
> enough to know that FreeBSD is a superbly organized effort.

And depends on tons of volunteerism. >>:->  If you want to see it, submit
it.

Doug White                              | University of Oregon  
Internet:  dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu    | Residence Networking Assistant
http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite    | Computer Science Major



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar 15 14:43:53 1998
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From: Jun Kuriyama <kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>
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Subject: Re: Convert to DocBook (was Re: ps2pdf)
References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk> <19980311170823.64512@shale.csir.co.za> <19980311152540.43318@iii.co.uk> <35095A81.F35369D9@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp> <19980313170342.60995@iii.co.uk>
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nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
>   1. Has anyone on the Japanese side used Jade to process SGML with
>      the japanese characters suitably encoded? Did it work?

  Now, we are translating "FreeBSD Tutorials" to Japanese.  We use
"sgmlfmt" for building html files from DocBook source.  I tested Jade
for it yesterday.  It might have no problem.  (But according to our
Technical Director Mr. Hanai, "rtf" rendering of Jade have some problems
about treating 8-bit characters.)

>   2. Do you see any problems with the approach used (i.e., a series of
>      commits, each one concerning itself with just one structural change,
>      and those changes automated where ever possible)?

  Sorry, I cannot understand this question (my English skill is very
poor...).  But technically (such as tags), we can apply English changes
to Japanese version easily now.

>   I've been working on getting the handbook converted from the LinuxDoc
>   DTD to DocBook, cleaning up the markup, reorganising the file structure
>   and so on.

  I am using these components for testing Jade.

  o Jade 1.0.1
  o DocBook 3.0
  o iso8879-1986
  o Norman Walsh's DSSSL stylesheets for the DocBook DTD

  Do you have any stylesheets for FreeBSD Handbook, FAQ, Tutorials?  I
think Norman's stylesheets need more (and more) modifications to use for
Handbook, etc.


-- 
Jun Kuriyama // kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar 15 15:33:44 1998
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Message-ID: <19980315233240.48817@nothing-going-on.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:32:40 +0000
From: Nik Clayton <nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk>
To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Handbook LinuxDoc -> DocBook migration
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Hi folks,

For those that are interested in the project to migrate the Handbook from
the LinuxDoc DTD to DocBook, please read the following. It's my current
plan for how to do this.

Comment welcomed.

N


                           Handbook DTD Migration

                               By Nik Clayton

                           Email: nik@freebsd.org

Contents

     1   Background
     2   Current Handbook layout
     3   Translation
     4   Branching the repository
     5   Software requirements
     6   Doing the conversion
          6.1   Protect entities
          6.2   Mechanically convert the Handbook to DocBook
     7   Clean up the converted file
          7.1   Reindent
          7.2   Refill the paragraphs
          7.3   Fix entries broken by the previous two changes
          7.4   Replace comments
          7.5   Remove empty markup
          7.6   Fixup the markup choice
          7.7   Fixup other errors
     8   Split the Handbook into smaller files
          8.1   Directory structure and file names
          8.2   Add a DOCTYPE to the split files
          8.3   Add a new entity file, _misc.sgml
          8.4   Bring in the lost entities
     9   Automate converting the Handbook to target formats
     10   Merge changes from HEAD and commit, replacing the HEAD
     11   If you want to help...

 NOTE:

 This document assumes that the reader has a basic understanding of SGML.

Over the past six months or so a consensus has emerged that the FreeBSD
Handbook (the Handbook) should be migrated from its existing DTD (LinuxDoc)
to the DocBook DTD.

This document outlines how that will be achieved. This is a work in
progress, and comment is welcomed. It is also a lengthy document, but I'm
trying to be as thorough as possible.

1   Background

The FreeBSD Handbook is currently marked up using the LinuxDoc DTD. A
variety of tools are then used to convert the Handbook to other formats,
including HTML, ASCII text and Postscript.

It is generally agreed that the LinuxDoc DTD is not up to the task of
encoding the meaning of elements of the Handbook in sufficient detail. It
has been decided that the Handbook should migrate to the DocBook DTD.
DocBook is expressly designed for writing technical documentation such as
the Handbook, and features a rich element set. It is also relatively easy to
extend.

As is often the case in volunteer projects such as FreeBSD (and Linux) no
one has had the time to work through the issues involved in the migration,
and then commit to being able to do the work.

That's recently changed.

I've just been able to commit a large chunk of spare time to this project
and (in conjunction with John Fieber) have been working through the issues
involved.

The rest of this document aims to bring the interested reader up to speed on
what's about to happen to the Handbook, and should provide sufficient detail
for the interested SGML hacker to let me know what I've missed.

2   Current Handbook layout

The Handbook is currently organised as a collection of files (with a .sgml
extension) in one directory.

Some of these files contain SGML entity definitions, and exist only to be
included in the other SGML files. The other files form the chapters and
sections of the handbook. Some chapters are entirely in one file, others are
split and are stored in several files.

This is (IMHO) mildly annoying. The migration process provides an
opportunity to address this.

3   Translation

The FreeBSD HandBook has been translated to Japanese, and the Japanese
translators track changes to the Handbook and convert the changes by hand.

In order to make their task easier during this migration, almost all the
changes made will be automated, allowing the Japanese team to easily
replicate them.

In addition, no changes to the content of the Handbook will be made until
after the Handbook has been converted to DocBook.

4   Branching the repository

The migration process consists of a number of discrete steps. The state of
the Handbook mid-way through these steps is not suitable for ``public
consumption''.

In addition, it is possible that unforeseen problems will occur during the
migration.

It would be possible to do all of the migration process ``offline'', and
only commit the converted Handbook when the process was complete. However,
this would deny the Japanese translators access to the diffs of the
Handbook's state as it is converted.

For these reasons, the conversion process must not happen on the HEAD of the
CVS repository. Instead, the CVS doc repository will be branched with the
tag ``LINUXDOC_2_DOCBOOK''. All the migration commits will happen along this
branch.

5   Software requirements

The conversion process requires the following applications and other pieces
of software. Most of these are available in the FreeBSD ports collection.

   * LinuxDoc DTD (textproc/linuxdoc)

   * DocBook DTD (textproc/docbook)

   * jade and nsgmls (textproc/jade)

   * instant and the LinuxDoc to DocBook translation specification
     (textproc/sgmlformat)

   * perl for entity protection (lang/perl5)

   * xemacs and the psgml package to make editing the Handbook considerably
     simpler (editors/xemacs20). psgml also features commands to assist in
     the reformatting of the Handbook.

   * Norm Walsh's Modular DocBook stylesheet, available at
     http://www.berkshire.net/~norm/dsssl/docbook/.

     Norm has written DocBook stylesheets that can be used with Jade to
     transform text marked up in DocBook to HTML and RTF. These stylesheets
     will be used to convert the Handbook to HTML and RTF. From there (in
     the short term) the RTF can be converted to LaTeX and thence to
     Postscript. The HTML can be used to generate the plain text version of
     the Handbook.

     In the long term, the JadeTeX backend will be used to convert the
     Handbook to TeX, and from there to Postscript.

6   Doing the conversion

Trying to convert the Handbook from LinuxDoc to DocBook on a file by file
basis won't work. At least, not without an immense amount of grief.

Instead, John Fieber's linuxdoc-docbook translation specification and
instant will be used to do the conversion.

However, the conversion process has a number of interesting wrinkles.

  1. Entity definitions will be lost (see below for a workaround).

  2. Comments in the individual source files will be lost. This is
     (potentially) a problem, since some of those comments contain copyright
     notices, reminders and so forth.

     They will need to be manually added back into the converted file.

  3. Because the migration process is moving from a less expressive DTD to a
     more expressive DTD, the converted document will not take full
     advantage of the elements in the target DTD (DocBook). The translated
     document will need to be examined, and some markup substituted.

  4. The result of the conversion process is one large file. This will need
     splitting up into smaller files. It is here that the opportunity to
     reorganise and rename the files that comprise the Handbook arises.

6.1   Protect entities

The Handbook uses general entities to represent replaceable text. For
example, &a.jkh; expands to Jordan's name and e-mail address.

Unfortunately, the conversion process will cause all these entities to
expand to their full representation, and the entity definition will be lost.

The solution is to protect each entity, by making each entity refer to its
own name, while storing its expanded form elsewhere.

I have a relatively simple Perl script that does this. In essence, it looks
for

      <!ENTITY foo "This is some text">

and converts it to

      <!ENTITY foo CDATA "-entity-foo;" -- "This is some text" -->

which ensures that the process can be reveresed.

A similar operation is performed on entities that refer to files in the
SYSTEM, rather than containing CDATA.

6.2   Mechanically convert the Handbook to DocBook

The Handbook can now be converted to the DocBook DTD. The command line to
accomplish this is

     # nsgmls -c /usr/local/share/sgml/linuxdoc/catalog handbook.sgml | \
         instant -t /usr/local/share/sgml/transpec/linuxdoc-docbook.t | \
         sed -e 's/-entity-/\&/g' > handbook.docb

The result of this conversion is a file containing syntactically valid but
very ugly DocBook markup. This converted file is not yet ready to be
converted to HTML.

The one redeeming feature of this process is it is completely automatic.
This should allow anyone working on the translation of the Handbook to do
the same thing to the translated version and get the same results.

7   Clean up the converted file

After the conversion, the Handbook SGML file will be cleaned up. Each one of
these steps is a separate commit.

7.1   Reindent

The file will be reindented. The easiest way to do this is to load the file
into xemacs, activate sgml-mode and run the following function (which is not
a part of psgml).

     (defun sgml-indent-buffer
       "Indents the current buffer, one line at a time"
       (interactive "*")
       (save-excursion
         (goto-char (point-min))
         (while (= (forward-line 1) 0)
           (sgml-indent-or-tab))))


7.2   Refill the paragraphs

Again, the easiest way to refill (rewrap) the paragraphs in the file is to
use sgml-mode. In this case, the cursor can be placed on the first element
in the new Handbook (``book'') and M-x sgml-fill-element will be run.

7.3   Fix entries broken by the previous two changes

The two previous changes have an undesirable side effect. Any content that
is supposed to be rendered based on its layout in the SGML source will have
had that layout corrupted.

Examples of this include program listings, examples for the user to type in,
PGP key blocks, and so on.

These entries will need to be fixed up (reindented, and so on) by hand,
based on their layout in the original handbook.

 Automating this:

 This cannot (currently) be automated. I'm talking with the author of
 PSGML, and the next version will have a mechanism to force
 sgml-fill-element to leave certain elements untouched. This version of
 PSGML is still in alpha test.

 However, if you're a LISP programmer with some spare time, I'd be grateful
 if you could take a look at PSGML and see if you can put together a quick
 hack.

 I think a check needs adding to the sgml-fill-element function that causes
 it to bail out early if the context for the current element is in a list
 of elements that should not be ``filled''.

7.4   Replace comments

The conversion process strips out the comments from the source files. The
existing source files will need to be examined, and the comments inserted
into the new file.

7.5   Remove empty markup

Due to formatting in the original Handbook, the conversion process writes a
number of empty elements, mostly

     <para></para>

These will be removed.

7.6   Fixup the markup choice

The conversion process selects sub-optimal markup in many cases. This is
because the translation is from a less expressive DTD to a more expressive
DTD.

For example, the converted document has a slew of

      <emphasis role="tt">/a/file/name</emphasis>

that should be converted to

      <filename>/a/file/name</filename>

A cursory inspection of the converted file shows opportunities in the
Handbook for filename, prompt, acronym, command, application, userinput and
so on.

There are also many sections designated as notes, which should be marked up
using the appropriate element from note, warning, tip and so on.

Each markup change will be a separate commit. So, all the changes to use the
filename element will be made and committed, then all the changes to use
prompt will be committed, and so on.

7.7   Fixup other errors

The mechanical conversion introduces other errors that cause the converted
handbook to fail to validate. These will be fixed on a case by case basis
until the Handbook validates.

8   Split the Handbook into smaller files

8.1   Directory structure and file names

I intend to split the Handbook into files organised along chapter lines.
Each chapter in the Handbook will get its own directory, and the primary
file for that chapter will be called chapter.sgml in its directory.

The content for an individual chapter may be contained entirely within the
chapter.sgml file. Or it might be separated out further along section lines.

The biggest benefit of splitting out the chapters into individual
directories is that it prepares the Handbook for the time when graphical
content will be included in some chapters. Splitting the content into
directories allows all the content for a particular chapter to be kept
together.

The top level handbook directory will contain handbook.sgml as it currently
does. In addition, there will be other .sgml files. These files will contain
entity definitions in the same way that authors.sgml, lists.sgml and
sections.sgml do at the moment.

To emphasise that these files contain content that will be used by other
files, and are not directly usable themselves (they have no DOCTYPE) the
filenames will start with a leading underscore.

 Current filename     New filename
 ---------------------------------
 authors.sgml         _authors.sgml
 lists.sgml           _lists.sgml
 sections.sgml        _chapters.sgml

These entity files will also need converting to DocBook.

8.2   Add a DOCTYPE to the split files

 NOTE:

 I don't know if this is actually possible. I include it here so that
 someone with more SGML knowledge than myself can comment on the idea.

With the Handbook as it stands at the moment, it's hard to work on a part of
it and see the results of your change without rebuilding the entire
handbook. This can take a while.

At the moment, each file that comprises the Handbook can not be processed on
its own, it has to be processed has a part of the entire Handbook.

I'd like to change this so that you could do

     % cd /top/of/handbook
     % make
     ... this converts the entire Handbook ...
     % cd Introduction
     % make
     ... this just makes the Introduction chapter ...


obviously, the results of just making the introduction would probably
contain unresolved references to internal link targets, entities and so on.
But it's only intended to allow an author to check their work in progress
without needing to rebuild the whole Handbook.

At first, I thought this could be accomplished by adding a DOCTYPE to the
top of each chapter file. However, this fails when building the entire
Handbook, since it then has multiple DOCTYPE entries.

Instead, I thought something like the following could be used;

     <![ %doctype [
     <!DOCTYPE CHAPTER PUBLIC "-//Davenport//DTD DocBook V3.0//EN">
     ]]>

to determine whether or not to include the DOCTYPE. But some simple tests
show that this doesn't work either. As I say, comments from the SGML
cognoscenti welcome.

8.3   Add a new entity file, _misc.sgml

I think there's a place for a description of miscellanous entities to be
used in the Handbook, mostly to help ensure consistency.

Right now I only have two in mind,

     <!ENTITY prompt.root "<prompt>#</prompt>">
     <!ENTITY prompt.user "<prompt>%</prompt>">


which would be used in all examples that needed to indicate whether the user
was to perform a particular action as root or as a regular user.

8.4   Bring in the lost entities

The current handbook.sgml includes some entity definitions at the top of the
file that will be lost in the conversion process. They need to be added back
in.

9   Automate converting the Handbook to target formats

At a minimum the Handbook must be convertible to plain text, HTML and
Postscript. Jade provides backends to convert to a number of other formats,
including RTF, TeX and an SGML translation.

Using Norm Walsh's stylesheets, HTML can be produced with

     % jade -t sgml -d /path/to/docbook.dsl handbook.sgml

and RTF with

     % jade -t rtf -d /path/to/docbook.dsl handbook.sgml

The use of the TeX backend is still being worked on. I plan on tracking down
more information about this over the coming week.

In order to make the Handbook buildable with easily available FreeBSD tools,
a port will need to be made of both Norm Walsh's DocBook stylesheets and the
JadeTeX macros.

As normal, the Handbook will have a Makefile to help automate the
conversion. Initially, I expect that this Makefile will be self contained
rather than relying on bsd.sgml.mk. This is so that the generation of the
FAQ (which will be a separate conversion project) can continue unchanged.
Eventually, of course, both the FAQ and the Handbook will be marked up in
DocBook, and then the common Makefile code can move to bsd.sgml.mk.

10   Merge changes from HEAD and commit, replacing the HEAD

When the migration is complete, a diff of the Handbook on the HEAD will be
taken, and any content changes that were made while the Handbook was
migrated will be applied to the DocBook version (by hand).

At this point the DocBook conversion of the Handbook can replace the current
LinuxDoc version.

11   If you want to help...

If you've read all of the above then firstly, my thanks.

Secondly, if you've got any comments or suggestions, please feel free to
make them.

Thirdly, about the only thing in all this that I'm not completely sure about
is the final conversion to TeX. In particular, I haven't experimented with
the JadeTeX macros yet. If you have, or your pretty handy with TeX and fancy
volunteering to answer some of my (quite possibly) silly questions, please
step forward.
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar 15 15:40:56 1998
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From: Nik Clayton <nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk>
To: Jun Kuriyama <kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>, nik@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Convert to DocBook (was Re: ps2pdf)
References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk> <19980311170823.64512@shale.csir.co.za> <19980311152540.43318@iii.co.uk> <35095A81.F35369D9@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp> <19980313170342.60995@iii.co.uk> <350C5776.3F9EBA34@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>
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On Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 07:34:30AM +0900, Jun Kuriyama wrote:
> >   1. Has anyone on the Japanese side used Jade to process SGML with
> >      the japanese characters suitably encoded? Did it work?
> 
>   Now, we are translating "FreeBSD Tutorials" to Japanese.  We use
> "sgmlfmt" for building html files from DocBook source.  I tested Jade
> for it yesterday.  It might have no problem.  (But according to our
> Technical Director Mr. Hanai, "rtf" rendering of Jade have some problems
> about treating 8-bit characters.)

OK.

Have you been able to use Jade's TeX backend to do the conversion?

> >   2. Do you see any problems with the approach used (i.e., a series of
> >      commits, each one concerning itself with just one structural change,
> >      and those changes automated where ever possible)?
> 
>   Sorry, I cannot understand this question (my English skill is very
> poor...).  But technically (such as tags), we can apply English changes
> to Japanese version easily now.

Right. 

I don't think this will be a problem, as long as I'm careful to not make
'content' changes and 'tag' changes in the same commit.
 
> >   I've been working on getting the handbook converted from the LinuxDoc
> >   DTD to DocBook, cleaning up the markup, reorganising the file structure
> >   and so on.
> 
>   I am using these components for testing Jade.
> 
>   o Jade 1.0.1
>   o DocBook 3.0
>   o iso8879-1986
>   o Norman Walsh's DSSSL stylesheets for the DocBook DTD
> 
>   Do you have any stylesheets for FreeBSD Handbook, FAQ, Tutorials?  I
> think Norman's stylesheets need more (and more) modifications to use for
> Handbook, etc.

No I don't. I believe that Norman's stylesheets and the configuration
options he provides should be enough to get started, although it probably
won't look exactly like the current handbook. 

However, having the Handbook in DocBook means that there's a large body
of DocBook source available for people to work on, and others will then
be able to work on Norman's stylesheets as well.

I've just sent a (lengthy) message out to the list with my current plans
for the conversion. Hopefully that will spark a bit more comment and
make things clearer as well.

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar 15 16:28:38 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:56:36 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Jeremy Lea <reg@shale.csir.co.za>, doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: ps2pdf (was: newbies mailing list)
References: <199803030441.VAA11558@const.> <34FBE0CB.C1697F2D@internationalschool.co.uk> <19980304102052.13296@freebie.lemis.com> <19980304131036.44077@shale.csir.co.za> <19980306191229.06394@freebie.lemis.com> <19980311182033.60785@shale.csir.co.za>
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On Wed, 11 March 1998 at 18:20:33 +0200, Jeremy Lea wrote:
> Hi...
>
> On Fri, Mar 06, 1998 at 07:12:29PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> Obviously the work with sed has to be
>> done before making the CD.
>
> If it's a one line patch then shouldn't it just go into bsd.doc.mk and
> happen every time?

Probably.  That wasn't the question I was addressing.

> I've noticed that people in the US tend to think very much in terms of the
> CD distribution of FreeBSD. Out in the backwaters of this virtual urban
> sprawl the CD is not very easy to come by and ordering it is quite pricey.
> People here tend to think a lot more in terms of FTP. There are 10 times as
> many mirrors outside the US as inside...

Well, I'm not exactly in the middle of Manhattan here, either, and I
definitely think more in terms of CD-ROMs for the same reasons you
propose for ftp.

>> No problems there.  My problem is that there has to be something
>> better than the current html, which, as other people have observed, is
>> difficult to handle.
>>
>> While writing my book, I spent a lot of time reading the handbook,
>> initially the HTML version.  It wasn't until I went to reading the
>> ASCII version that I discovered a whole lot of stuff that I hadn't
>> found in the HTML.  This is more a problem of the handbook than the
>> medium, but the medium encourages it: excellent random access and
>> appalling sequential access.  I'd suggest that we try to reduce the
>> number of pages and increase their size (and still keep the links, of
>> course).  One page per chapter sounds reasonable.
>
> I agree... Personally I think HTML is a mess. It should never have been a
> content based markup format... it should have been a platform independent
> display format and left the content stuff to background SGML like docbook.
> But well you can't change history. HTML and it's successors are here to
> stay.
>
> Making the HTML pages longer is a good idea. So, I think, is making the
> printable versions shorter (one section per file). But I think there is more
> needed in terms of restructuring the documents, and pitching them at a
> broader audience. An idea I liked was that used in the online Java book at
> java.sun.com, which uses "trails", which you can follow through. Maybe
> something like this would work. In the online version it would be hypertext
> and in the printed version it could use small icons. There could be a "new
> user", "ISP", "workstation", "Quake" :), etc. trails for the various
> segments of the users to walk though, so that experienced users could skip
> the hand-holding... I'd have to think the idea through a bit with a copy of
> the handbook in front of me.

This sounds like a very good idea.  I'm also sure it's very difficult
to get right.

Greg

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar 15 17:22:43 1998
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Dear sir 
could you tell me what is Modern operating systems
and any protection methods and the different between the old operating
systems

Could you reply to me on my E-mail address at chang_qing@hotmail.com
please

many thanks

yours

chang

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sun Mar 15 18:19:55 1998
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Can you please advise me how to convert the handbook in "iso 8859-1" format
(which is how the "ascii" version of the handbook seems to be) into one
that I can easily use in DOS/WIn95/..., independently of netscape ?

My email address is  : bernard_brown@GECFA.com.au



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 03:10:09 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:09:25 +0000
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, questions@FreeBSD.ORG,
        doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Help!
References: <8029.889873747@time.cdrom.com> <350B12B8.60A902D3@dal.net>
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On Sat, Mar 14, 1998 at 03:28:56PM -0800, Studded wrote:
> 	Anyway, if people are serious about addressing this problem, point me
> to the right forum and we can start making plans. Like I said, I'd be
> happy to help.

    freebsd-doc@freebsd.org

(to which I've cc'd this message for information)

Go to your favourite list archive and read back through it for the past 
month or 2 (alternatively, mail me at nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk and 
I'll forward you my own archives).

Precis: A couple of people (myself included) have suggested pretty much 
the same thing on the mailing list. No one's yet but together an outline
of how the Handbook should be structured (and as John Fieber's said) the
Handbook has grown quite organically.

Probably the best thing to do would be for you to go through the existing
content in the Handbook (at a fairly high level) and see if the ordering
of the chapters can be improved, or whether or not you think some of the
information should be pulled out and made into its own section (or subsumed
into another, or whatever).

Then get back to the list with the ToC and we can thrash it out. I've got
some of my own ideas for a restructuring, but I haven't had the time to
commit them to the screen yet. If you're prepared to wait a couple of days
(or want to keep pestering me by e-mail until I do it :-) ) I can send
them off to get the ball rolling.

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 04:42:52 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:42:30 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Help!
References: <8029.889873747@time.cdrom.com> <350B12B8.60A902D3@dal.net> <19980316110925.13571@iii.co.uk>
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On Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 11:09:25AM +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:

> Probably the best thing to do would be for you to go through the existing
> content in the Handbook (at a fairly high level) and see if the ordering
> of the chapters can be improved, or whether or not you think some of the
> information should be pulled out and made into its own section (or subsumed
> into another, or whatever).
> 
> Then get back to the list with the ToC and we can thrash it out. I've got
> some of my own ideas for a restructuring, but I haven't had the time to
> commit them to the screen yet. If you're prepared to wait a couple of days
> (or want to keep pestering me by e-mail until I do it :-) ) I can send
> them off to get the ball rolling.

I know nothing about writing documentation and less about FreeBSD, but I am
an expert at failing to make sense of documentation. I'm always willing to
show where I fail to anyone who sincerely values one beginner's perspective.
It's not easy to mingle with clever people so don't worry about me getting
in the way. If I can be useful, you can ask when you're ready.


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

find / -name "*.conf" |more


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 07:32:12 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:31:25 +0000
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, FreeBSD-Stable@FreeBSD.ORG, doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Documentation plan?
Reply-To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Mon, Mar 16, 1998 at 04:03:24AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > 3. The next priority as I see it is 3 or 4 people to read every word of
> > the FAQ and Handbook and point out areas that are out of date. (Are
> 
> Or just start over, using the bones of the previous effort as a starting
> point.  There's some good meat there and a lot of fat.

Yow. Halt. Slow down.

There's about to be a considerable amount of time and effort invested 
in migrating the Handbook from the LinuxDoc DTD to the DocBook DTD, and
a large chunk of work has already gone into making sure that this can
be done without affecting the current content.

This job would be made much easier if we could start over again, but I
think the decision to keep what we've got has already been made over on 
the -doc list.

That's not to say that it won't be trimmed down, re-organised and so on
over the coming months. . .

Could you guys take this on to the -doc list where it belongs (and where
I've cc'd this message, and set reply-to's accordingly).

Cheers,

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 07:43:31 1998
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To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG
cc: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Documentation plan? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:31:25 GMT."
             <19980316153125.64380@iii.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:42:17 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Yow. Halt. Slow down.
> 
> There's about to be a considerable amount of time and effort invested 
> in migrating the Handbook from the LinuxDoc DTD to the DocBook DTD, and
> a large chunk of work has already gone into making sure that this can
> be done without affecting the current content.

Which is fine and probably a very necessary prerequisite to any such
transition in the future.  I also didn't say that the entire baby
should be thrown out with the bathwater, simply that any truly
polished looking Handbook/FAQ/Tutorial combined document is going to
require so much reshuffling that it'd probably be easier to just start
from scratch and slowly bring in pieces from the previous work(s)
until you finally ended up with a wholly new body of work.

Consider this, for example: Any reasonably well-designed handbook
takes great pains to make each and every logical section map to the
same sort of "skill-set sine wave", e.g. each starts with the basic
concepts, talks about more in-depth concepts towards the middle and
then closes with either the hairy details or (better yet) pointers to
further reading in the "hairy detail section."  This way you can leap
to any section in the handbook and know precisely how much if it
you're going to have to read depending on what you want to know.

The current handbook is nothing like this - each author had different
ideas about how far in-depth to go or at what level to start out with,
resulting in something which plots a lot more like an EEG than a sine
wave on the skill curve.  How would you propose to fix that problem
without the literary equivalent of a chain saw?  I don't see how.

					Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 09:34:46 1998
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 10:04:49 1998
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hi
how can I install freeBSD on my hard disk???

please let me know
thanks,
susie

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 11:01:22 1998
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A friend told me you guys have a mechanism for distributing
non-exportable software.  Is there any way I can arrange to
add one of my packages to your archive?

  I don't want to go through the hassle of setting up all the 
interrogation/obfuscation necessary to cover my ass as far 
as export law goes.  If you already have the mechanisms in 
place, I'd much rather take advantage of that.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 14:19:23 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:48:47 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Documentation plan?
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On Mon, 16 March 1998 at  7:42:17 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>> Yow. Halt. Slow down.
>>
>> There's about to be a considerable amount of time and effort invested
>> in migrating the Handbook from the LinuxDoc DTD to the DocBook DTD, and
>> a large chunk of work has already gone into making sure that this can
>> be done without affecting the current content.
>
> Which is fine and probably a very necessary prerequisite to any such
> transition in the future.  I also didn't say that the entire baby
> should be thrown out with the bathwater, simply that any truly
> polished looking Handbook/FAQ/Tutorial combined document is going to
> require so much reshuffling that it'd probably be easier to just start
> from scratch and slowly bring in pieces from the previous work(s)
> until you finally ended up with a wholly new body of work.
>
> Consider this, for example: Any reasonably well-designed handbook
> takes great pains to make each and every logical section map to the
> same sort of "skill-set sine wave", e.g. each starts with the basic
> concepts, talks about more in-depth concepts towards the middle and
> then closes with either the hairy details or (better yet) pointers to
> further reading in the "hairy detail section."  This way you can leap
> to any section in the handbook and know precisely how much if it
> you're going to have to read depending on what you want to know.
>
> The current handbook is nothing like this - each author had different
> ideas about how far in-depth to go or at what level to start out with,
> resulting in something which plots a lot more like an EEG than a sine
> wave on the skill curve.  How would you propose to fix that problem
> without the literary equivalent of a chain saw?  I don't see how.

I don't think you can.  Trying to impose that sort of discipline on
the handbook is equivalent to tell the hackers when to commit their
code.  It's a volunteer operation, and people will continue to do
things their way, frequently with the policy of content over style.

I suppose one idea would be to give ownership of specific chapters to
people who demonstrate an ability to maintain them.

Greg


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 16:33:20 1998
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
cc: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Documentation plan? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:48:47 +1030."
             <19980317084847.04060@freebie.lemis.com> 
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:31:55 -0800
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From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> I don't think you can.  Trying to impose that sort of discipline on
> the handbook is equivalent to tell the hackers when to commit their
> code.  It's a volunteer operation, and people will continue to do
> things their way, frequently with the policy of content over style.

I wasn't suggesting that the original authors have this imposed on
them, simply that an "editor" needed to go through and turn the
original copy into something closer to what makes a decent handbook.

Considering the difference in quality with the results, I don't think
that anyone would object, nor does the average engineer feel as
strongly about their textual output (which most feel sucks anyway and
only do it as a last resort) as they do about their code.

					Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 16:36:46 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:48:20 -0000 (GMT)
From: Duncan Barclay <dmlb@computer.my.domain>
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Subject: Small docbook bugs
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Hi

Docbook/jade ports from 2.2.5-R CDROMs

    <arg choice="plain" rep="norepeat"><replaceable>infile</replaceable></arg>
renders (HTML) as
    infile ...
not as
    infile

norepeat should be the default but it still renders as above.

Also either I am using the <link> tag incorrectly or it doesn't generate
a html link.

<link linkend="xxx"><command>foo</></link>


Duncan


---
________________________________________________________________________
Duncan Barclay          | God smiles upon the little children,
dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned.
________________________________________________________________________


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 18:23:18 1998
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From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Alfred Perlstein <perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu>, FreeBSD-DOC@FreeBSD.ORG,
        Jordan Hubbard <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: RE: DPT driver?
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I apologize for the cross posting, but I get this question at least once a
week.  To save bandwidth and my cellular phone bill, can it be considreted
for inclusion in the FreeBSD handbook?

Jordan, Are you interested in this info as a core for an article for the
newsletter?


On 16-Mar-98 Alfred Perlstein wrote:
> i'm a little confused by the DPT driver, other than examining the source
>:)
> is there any documentation on it?

Yup.  Try roaming ftp://simon-shapiro.org/crash.  If not, It will be in the
next patch to the driver.  I am giving Julian a bit of rest from my
checkins...  If you need it soon, let me know.  I can post it here, or send
it to whoever asks for it.

> (i'm a scsi and RAID newbie, so please excuse this)
> 
> a few simple questions about dpt0 that were unclear in the LINT file:
> 1) is it stable?

More than the LINT kernel :-)  It is in heavy production environment for
many months.  Both 2.2 and 3.0.  the 2.2 version is a little more stale,
but the DPT interface is virtually identical to 3.0.

> 2) does it have an dependancies i should know about?

The DPT cards (not the driver) seem to barf at some fx340 motherboards.
The driver depends on software interrupts for queue management.  It comes
with its own version on 2.2, and uses the CAM equivalent in 3.0.  No other
dependencies exist today.

Ooops.  The 2.2 driver only supports 3.0, not 2.2 (FreeBSD, that is).

> 3) does it "work" with all PCI scsi cards, or only specific hardware?

ALL DPT SCSI cards, ISA=EISA=PCI, use exactly the same protocol and appear
to the driver to be the same.  The only difference is in the bus probing
and initialization.  Matthew Dodd wrote EISA support for 3.0 and that was
integrated with the driver and added to the normal 3.0-current source tree
a week ago (Thanx Matthew, Thanx Julian).

> 4) a terse explanation on setting it up?

The white paper explains it.  So does my web page http://simon-shapiro.org,
but here is an outline (yet again):

a.  Use the supplied DOS floppies to run dptmgr/fw0.
b.  Use Other O/S, or Linux
c.  Set up your RAID arrays to your heart's content (http://www.dpt.com
    contains some good advise on that.  So is the manual that comes wit hthe
    card.
d.  Save your setup and exit.
e.  Your RAID arrays will appear to the BIOS  and ANY O/S you boot as
    single disks. (a whole array looks like one large disk.

Example:  PM3334UW with SX4030/2 has a total of three SCSI busses.  You
          have a RS/7UWR disk bay with seven 9GB drives.  You also have two
          2GB drives you found in the closet and want to use for a
          fault-resistant boot disk.  The 7 disks will be used to ccreate a
          fault tolerant mail server, so they will go into /var/qmail, as
          one giant filesystem.  You want the utmost in reliability and zero
          downtime.  We will compromise a bit on that, to make the example
          more ``interesting''.

*  Using the internal ribbon cable that came with your controller, you hook
   up the two junk drives to bus 0. You set them up as target ID 0, and
   target ID 1.  They will be known as B0-0, and B0-1

*  You split the RS/7UWR cabinet into two busses.  3 disks on one,  four on
   the other.  the disks will thus be known as B1-0, B1-1, B1-2, B1-3 and
   B2-0, B2-1, B2-2.

*  Boot DOS, put Floppy 1 in the drive and type dptmgr/fw0

*  In the DPTMGR, create an array, optimize for speed, select drives B0-0
   and B0-1, Done Adding drives.  Select the File option, Set System
   Parameters.  Since this is a RAID-1, you are given a chance to copy one
   drive on another or wipe them both clean.  Choose what you like (Yes,
   this is a good trick to duplicate completely installed systems).  While
   the array builds (Blue flag, as opposed to Black), double-click on the
   array icon, and on Name.  Set the array name to something you will
   recognize and the boss will be impressed/confused by.

*  Now build another RAID array, Optimize for Capacity, choose a stripe
   size of 32KB or larger (it depends on application types, amount of cache,
   the position of the moon in the southern hemisphere sky and few other
   things).

*  Add to this array, IN THIS ORDER, driver b1-0, b2-0, b1-1, b2-1, b1-2,
   b2-2.

*  File->Set System parameters.  While the array builds, change its name as
   above.

*  Select the leftover drive (should be b2-3, right?).  Click on Make Hot
   Spare.  Again File->Save System Parameters.  If the drive is the same or
   larger capacity as the other drives in your system (which are hooked up
   to that one DPT), the arrays will bet a little ``Red-Cross'' in their
   icon. This means they are protected by a HotSpare;  If a drive failed,
   the hot spare will replace the bad drive automagically.  when you put a
   new drive instead of the dead one, it (the replacement) will become the
   new hot spare.  No user intervention needed.


*  Go home.  Building an array of this size takes some time.  If you are
   brave (DPT support says ``stupid), you can use the /nobuild option to
   dptmgr.  Arrays build very quickly, but...

*  Let's say, you called the internal RAID-1 array Foo-Boot, and the big
   array Foo-Mail. When you boot your system, both the BIOS, and the DPT
   driver (independantly of each other), will report that you have 
   ``only'' TWO disk drives in the system.   If you used the DPT kernel
   config file from ftp://simon-shapiro.org/crash, you will have an sd0
   which will be a disk model Foo-Boot, Vendor DPT, revision 7LR (or
   whatever    your firmware is), and an sd16 which will be model Foo-Mail,
   Vendor DPT, version 7LR. there is no way, in the standard driver, for
   you to see the host spare (B2-3), nor can you see the individual disks.
   Moreover, you will not get timeouts, bus errors, resets, read/write
   errors, or any such thing into Unix, unless more than one drive failed
   in an array.

*  Install whatever O/S you choose, slicing, partitioning, any way you
   choose.  You will probably use sd0, the  Foo-Boot disk for most
   filesystems, and sd16 for /var/qmail.

*  If you loose a drive, the DPT will beep angily.  Once it calms down, it
   will emit a pattern of beeps to indicate what's fgoing on.  I modify all
   my boards to bring the 10 diagnostics LEDs to the fron of the machine. 
   Do NOT do that, unless you are really good at surface mount soldering and
   do not care about the lifetime warranty on your $900 controller.

Configuring a DPT for multi-initiator, High Availability Server exceeds the
space in this note.  There is a forthcoming paper describing that too.
 

----------


Sincerely Yours, 

Simon Shapiro
Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG                      Voice:   503.799.2313

To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 20:17:49 1998
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From: "Alfred Perlstein" <perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu>
To: <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>, <FreeBSD-DOC@FreeBSD.ORG>,
        "Jordan Hubbard" <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: DPT driver?
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:14:23 -0500
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for me it was simple, a developer on irc added something to the lint file
clarifing things, had this been there my silliness would have never popped
up, i've yet to try to use the DTP driver and i do assume some info on usage
would be nice in for future efforts (there is no man page)

thank you and sorry :)

-Alfred

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Shapiro <shimon@simon-shapiro.org>
To: Alfred Perlstein <perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu>; FreeBSD-DOC@FreeBSD.ORG
<FreeBSD-DOC@FreeBSD.ORG>; Jordan Hubbard <jkh@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG <hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Date: Monday, March 16, 1998 5:28 PM
Subject: RE: DPT driver?


>I apologize for the cross posting, but I get this question at least once a
>week.  To save bandwidth and my cellular phone bill, can it be considreted
>for inclusion in the FreeBSD handbook?
>
>Jordan, Are you interested in this info as a core for an article for the
>newsletter?
>
>
>On 16-Mar-98 Alfred Perlstein wrote:
>> i'm a little confused by the DPT driver, other than examining the source
>>:)
>> is there any documentation on it?
>
>Yup.  Try roaming ftp://simon-shapiro.org/crash.  If not, It will be in the
>next patch to the driver.  I am giving Julian a bit of rest from my
>checkins...  If you need it soon, let me know.  I can post it here, or send
>it to whoever asks for it.
>
>> (i'm a scsi and RAID newbie, so please excuse this)
>>
>> a few simple questions about dpt0 that were unclear in the LINT file:
>> 1) is it stable?
>
>More than the LINT kernel :-)  It is in heavy production environment for
>many months.  Both 2.2 and 3.0.  the 2.2 version is a little more stale,
>but the DPT interface is virtually identical to 3.0.
>
>> 2) does it have an dependancies i should know about?
>
>The DPT cards (not the driver) seem to barf at some fx340 motherboards.
>The driver depends on software interrupts for queue management.  It comes
>with its own version on 2.2, and uses the CAM equivalent in 3.0.  No other
>dependencies exist today.
>
>Ooops.  The 2.2 driver only supports 3.0, not 2.2 (FreeBSD, that is).
>
>> 3) does it "work" with all PCI scsi cards, or only specific hardware?
>
>ALL DPT SCSI cards, ISA=EISA=PCI, use exactly the same protocol and appear
>to the driver to be the same.  The only difference is in the bus probing
>and initialization.  Matthew Dodd wrote EISA support for 3.0 and that was
>integrated with the driver and added to the normal 3.0-current source tree
>a week ago (Thanx Matthew, Thanx Julian).
>
>> 4) a terse explanation on setting it up?
>
>The white paper explains it.  So does my web page http://simon-shapiro.org,
>but here is an outline (yet again):
>
>a.  Use the supplied DOS floppies to run dptmgr/fw0.
>b.  Use Other O/S, or Linux
>c.  Set up your RAID arrays to your heart's content (http://www.dpt.com
>    contains some good advise on that.  So is the manual that comes wit
hthe
>    card.
>d.  Save your setup and exit.
>e.  Your RAID arrays will appear to the BIOS  and ANY O/S you boot as
>    single disks. (a whole array looks like one large disk.
>
>Example:  PM3334UW with SX4030/2 has a total of three SCSI busses.  You
>          have a RS/7UWR disk bay with seven 9GB drives.  You also have two
>          2GB drives you found in the closet and want to use for a
>          fault-resistant boot disk.  The 7 disks will be used to ccreate a
>          fault tolerant mail server, so they will go into /var/qmail, as
>          one giant filesystem.  You want the utmost in reliability and
zero
>          downtime.  We will compromise a bit on that, to make the example
>          more ``interesting''.
>
>*  Using the internal ribbon cable that came with your controller, you hook
>   up the two junk drives to bus 0. You set them up as target ID 0, and
>   target ID 1.  They will be known as B0-0, and B0-1
>
>*  You split the RS/7UWR cabinet into two busses.  3 disks on one,  four on
>   the other.  the disks will thus be known as B1-0, B1-1, B1-2, B1-3 and
>   B2-0, B2-1, B2-2.
>
>*  Boot DOS, put Floppy 1 in the drive and type dptmgr/fw0
>
>*  In the DPTMGR, create an array, optimize for speed, select drives B0-0
>   and B0-1, Done Adding drives.  Select the File option, Set System
>   Parameters.  Since this is a RAID-1, you are given a chance to copy one
>   drive on another or wipe them both clean.  Choose what you like (Yes,
>   this is a good trick to duplicate completely installed systems).  While
>   the array builds (Blue flag, as opposed to Black), double-click on the
>   array icon, and on Name.  Set the array name to something you will
>   recognize and the boss will be impressed/confused by.
>
>*  Now build another RAID array, Optimize for Capacity, choose a stripe
>   size of 32KB or larger (it depends on application types, amount of
cache,
>   the position of the moon in the southern hemisphere sky and few other
>   things).
>
>*  Add to this array, IN THIS ORDER, driver b1-0, b2-0, b1-1, b2-1, b1-2,
>   b2-2.
>
>*  File->Set System parameters.  While the array builds, change its name as
>   above.
>
>*  Select the leftover drive (should be b2-3, right?).  Click on Make Hot
>   Spare.  Again File->Save System Parameters.  If the drive is the same or
>   larger capacity as the other drives in your system (which are hooked up
>   to that one DPT), the arrays will bet a little ``Red-Cross'' in their
>   icon. This means they are protected by a HotSpare;  If a drive failed,
>   the hot spare will replace the bad drive automagically.  when you put a
>   new drive instead of the dead one, it (the replacement) will become the
>   new hot spare.  No user intervention needed.
>
>
>*  Go home.  Building an array of this size takes some time.  If you are
>   brave (DPT support says ``stupid), you can use the /nobuild option to
>   dptmgr.  Arrays build very quickly, but...
>
>*  Let's say, you called the internal RAID-1 array Foo-Boot, and the big
>   array Foo-Mail. When you boot your system, both the BIOS, and the DPT
>   driver (independantly of each other), will report that you have
>   ``only'' TWO disk drives in the system.   If you used the DPT kernel
>   config file from ftp://simon-shapiro.org/crash, you will have an sd0
>   which will be a disk model Foo-Boot, Vendor DPT, revision 7LR (or
>   whatever    your firmware is), and an sd16 which will be model Foo-Mail,
>   Vendor DPT, version 7LR. there is no way, in the standard driver, for
>   you to see the host spare (B2-3), nor can you see the individual disks.
>   Moreover, you will not get timeouts, bus errors, resets, read/write
>   errors, or any such thing into Unix, unless more than one drive failed
>   in an array.
>
>*  Install whatever O/S you choose, slicing, partitioning, any way you
>   choose.  You will probably use sd0, the  Foo-Boot disk for most
>   filesystems, and sd16 for /var/qmail.
>
>*  If you loose a drive, the DPT will beep angily.  Once it calms down, it
>   will emit a pattern of beeps to indicate what's fgoing on.  I modify all
>   my boards to bring the 10 diagnostics LEDs to the fron of the machine.
>   Do NOT do that, unless you are really good at surface mount soldering
and
>   do not care about the lifetime warranty on your $900 controller.
>
>Configuring a DPT for multi-initiator, High Availability Server exceeds the
>space in this note.  There is a forthcoming paper describing that too.
>
>
>----------
>
>
>Sincerely Yours,
>
>Simon Shapiro
>Shimon@Simon-Shapiro.ORG                      Voice:   503.799.2313
>
>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
>with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
>


To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message

From owner-freebsd-doc  Mon Mar 16 21:10:28 1998
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Subject: Re: Documentation plan? 
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If I may,

Having followed this thread a little, and having volunteered to do a
bit on NIS at Doug White's prodding (I ask too many questions ;-)),
I would say that the lack of an editor holds back the overall
FreeBSD project. (Don't anyone get mad now.)

The on line documentation, while good, puts a new user into heavy
sensory overload. It did to me, when I first started with FreeBSD.
I sympathize with all the newbies who ask the obvious questions.
Its obvious to me - now, but not then, nor when I venture onto new
ground.

I am not an expert by any means, but my thrashings getting NIS to work
gives me an insight into what the new user will bump into. I feel I 
would like to help by telling someone else how to set NIS up (or
whatever else), but I'm not really a technical writer.

So, I need an editor. This is a volunteer project and I would feel
more comfortable putting something together then having it gone
through by an editor, or an editorial committee. Maybe people might
be more forthcoming if they felt they could rely on that.

I don't mean a professional editor, just a different pair of eyes.
A little distance makes a huge difference. I would even presume to
vounteer to be one of those pairs.

I guess this is a long winded (I did say I need an editor) way of
agreeing with you. It would also give the documentation an overall
cohesive feel.

Thanks for all your efforts!

John

On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> > I don't think you can.  Trying to impose that sort of discipline on
> > the handbook is equivalent to tell the hackers when to commit their
> > code.  It's a volunteer operation, and people will continue to do
> > things their way, frequently with the policy of content over style.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting that the original authors have this imposed on
> them, simply that an "editor" needed to go through and turn the
> original copy into something closer to what makes a decent handbook.
> 
> Considering the difference in quality with the results, I don't think
> that anyone would object, nor does the average engineer feel as
> strongly about their textual output (which most feel sucks anyway and
> only do it as a last resort) as they do about their code.
> 
> 					Jordan
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message
> 
> 



To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
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On Mon, 16 March 1998 at 23:15:16 -0600, John Kenagy wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>
>>> I don't think you can.  Trying to impose that sort of discipline on
>>> the handbook is equivalent to tell the hackers when to commit their
>>> code.  It's a volunteer operation, and people will continue to do
>>> things their way, frequently with the policy of content over style.
>>
>> I wasn't suggesting that the original authors have this imposed on
>> them, simply that an "editor" needed to go through and turn the
>> original copy into something closer to what makes a decent handbook.
>>
>> Considering the difference in quality with the results, I don't think
>> that anyone would object, nor does the average engineer feel as
>> strongly about their textual output (which most feel sucks anyway and
>> only do it as a last resort) as they do about their code.
> If I may,
>
> Having followed this thread a little, and having volunteered to do a
> bit on NIS at Doug White's prodding (I ask too many questions ;-)),
> I would say that the lack of an editor holds back the overall
> FreeBSD project. (Don't anyone get mad now.)
>
> The on line documentation, while good, puts a new user into heavy
> sensory overload. It did to me, when I first started with FreeBSD.
> I sympathize with all the newbies who ask the obvious questions.
> Its obvious to me - now, but not then, nor when I venture onto new
> ground.
>
> I am not an expert by any means, but my thrashings getting NIS to work
> gives me an insight into what the new user will bump into. I feel I
> would like to help by telling someone else how to set NIS up (or
> whatever else), but I'm not really a technical writer.
>
> So, I need an editor. This is a volunteer project and I would feel
> more comfortable putting something together then having it gone
> through by an editor, or an editorial committee. Maybe people might
> be more forthcoming if they felt they could rely on that.
>
> I don't mean a professional editor, just a different pair of eyes.
> A little distance makes a huge difference. I would even presume to
> vounteer to be one of those pairs.

Interesting idea.  Yes, I think you're right.  I'm prodding somebody
to volunteer, but won't mention names at this point.  Failing an
editor, at least a system of reviewing would be a good idea.  What do
other people think?

Greg


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 00:04:51 1998
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Subject: Docs Editor (Was: Re: Documentation plan?)
References: <27422.890094715@time.cdrom.com> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980316222118.316C-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980317180815.17122@freebie.lemis.com>
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Greg Lehey wrote:

> Interesting idea.  Yes, I think you're right.  I'm prodding somebody
> to volunteer, but won't mention names at this point.  Failing an
> editor, at least a system of reviewing would be a good idea.  What do
> other people think?

	I'd say if the project is serious about a doc overhaul, a unifying
force is practically a necessity. 

Doug

PS, I'm on the doc list now, no need to cc me. :)

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 00:17:03 1998
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[ Moved to -doc. ]

Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> 
> >       Oh, no argument there. Well, you asked, so you shall receive.
> 
> Excellent - a maso^H^H^H^Hmanager steps forward!

	Actually my personal bent is more the other way, but I digress. :)
 
> > 1. I think that there is universal agreement that the first priority
> > needs to be "up to the minute" pages where all important announcements,
> > especially related to the upgrade procedure for -Stable and -Current
> > will be posted. I think two pages is the best plan, one for each branch.
> 
> Yep.  These need to be both created and maintained on an ongoing
> basis.  We've made a few false-starts at the former and never even
> come close to the latter. :-( It takes dedication on the order of a
> Doug White (-questions) or a Steve Price (GNATS) to do this
> adequately, just to elevate those two to Icon status. ;-)

	Ok, we need a volunteer. It needs to be someone with commit privileges
to get the thing started, and then someone who can politely but firmly
prod people into keeping it up to date. Unless I misunderstand, any
committer can make www changes, yes? So people could be resonsible for
their own "updates."  I think Nik would be a good person for this, but
perhaps there is someone else interested?
 
> > 2. I personally think that the second priority would be to overhaul the
> > documents in the root directory of the ftp site (and by extension the
> > CD). There is too much duplication and no coherent plan. I'd break it up
> 
> Absolutely.  That basically describes most of our docs, not just the
> FOO.TXT files.  What we have is the result of haphazard evolution over
> the last 4 years rather than any coherent design, and just like any
> reasonably large body of code, you *must* plan on essentially throwing
> out the first effort and starting over.  This hasn't happened yet. :)

	*Nod* I agree that the whole thing needs to be redone, but that pesky
time/space problem forces us to prioritize re things that are soon to be
stamped into a CD. :)
 
> > README.TXT - Short, general introduction, table of contents similar to
> > the following, including some of what's in ABOUT.TXT now. Add a more
> > prominent pointer to the www page in general and put a reference to the
> > new "important info" page above close to the top.
> > [other FOO.TXT suggestions elided]
> 
> I'm all for that, I just need something to start with.  I've been
> looking at the FOO.TXT files for too long to be properly objective any
> longer.

	Well I was thinking more along the lines of parcelling this stuff out,
unless you want to take responsibility for README.TXT?
 
> > 3. The next priority as I see it is 3 or 4 people to read every word of
> > the FAQ and Handbook and point out areas that are out of date. (Are
> 
> Or just start over, using the bones of the previous effort as a starting
> point.  There's some good meat there and a lot of fat.

	Agreed, but that's not going to get done before 2.2.6. Getting some
"users" to look through the docs and pick out the really glaring stuff
before it gets stamped would be a good step. I'm looking towards
increasing the value of the CD in the short term.
 
> >       As I said, I'd be happy to help with this project, and I can spend some
> > time with the docs themselves as well. If no one better suited steps
> > forward I would be willing to coordinate things provided there are
> > actual volunteers to coordinate. :)  That being said, I certainly think
> 
> If past experience is any thing to go by, if you're capable of yelling
> "CHARGE!" with enough reasonable authority, the volunteers will
> appear. ;)

	Well I already have two, so I guess that's a good sign. :) Since the
FOO.TXT stuff doesn't require privileges, without objection I'll post to
-questions and maybe -chat tomorrow asking for more volunteers and get
them going. I'd like to make the 23rd the deadline for the working
drafts, and the 27th the rock solid deadline. Jordan does that work for
you? Since the docs don't affect how things "work" it seems that cutting
it that close wouldn't be a problem, let me know if I've assumed
incorrectly. 

Doug

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 01:00:03 1998
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Subject: Re: Documentation plan - handbook, etc.
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nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
 
> There's about to be a considerable amount of time and effort invested
> in migrating the Handbook from the LinuxDoc DTD to the DocBook DTD, and
> a large chunk of work has already gone into making sure that this can
> be done without affecting the current content.

	Ok, so am I to understand that the work hasn't actually commenced?
 
> This job would be made much easier if we could start over again, but I
> think the decision to keep what we've got has already been made over on
> the -doc list.

	There was considerable discussion about the direction the docs should
take on -questions less than a week ago and I never saw any firm
statements regarding "This is what we will do," so I thought the debate
was still open to be framed. 
 
> That's not to say that it won't be trimmed down, re-organised and so on
> over the coming months. . .
> 
> Could you guys take this on to the -doc list where it belongs (and where
> I've cc'd this message, and set reply-to's accordingly).

	Ok, done, and I'm on the list now so there's no need to cc me. 

> Go to your favourite list archive and read back through it for the past
> month or 2 (alternatively, mail me at nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk and
> I'll forward you my own archives).

	I tried the archive at the www site and TMK there's no way to search
specifying dates. I tried "february and 1998" but only got a few
letters, none of which applied to the topic at hand. 

> Precis: A couple of people (myself included) have suggested pretty much
> the same thing on the mailing list. No one's yet but together an outline
> of how the Handbook should be structured (and as John Fieber's said) the
> Handbook has grown quite organically.

	Well, I'd say that's a pretty good summary.
 
> Probably the best thing to do would be for you to go through the existing
> content in the Handbook (at a fairly high level) and see if the ordering
> of the chapters can be improved, or whether or not you think some of the
> information should be pulled out and made into its own section (or subsumed
> into another, or whatever).

	Actually the *first* question that needs to be answered is what do we
want to end up with.  You can't make a good plan without a goal in mind.
What was the consensus as to what the end product should be?

	I would have the following questions re the project, my apologies if
these were covered in the previous discussion. 

1.  What are the benefits of docbook vs. linuxbook? (Other than getting
"linux" out of our stuff, which I'm all for. :)

2.  Will the final product allow the user to generate docs in multiple
formats? The ones I'm most intersted in are http, pdf, ps and straight
text. 

3.  What came of the discussion on making the final product easily
printable by the user?  I really think that this would increase the
value of the final product tremendously. 

	I think that if you're serious about moving it into a new format the
best bet would be to make concrete plans on the final format and kill
all the birds with one shotgun blast. :)  That way we don't have to go
back and reformat if the parameters of the project change.  And yes, I
do think that we need an overall outline before we start, but right now
my priority is on the FOO.TXT stuff. 

	Finally, where can I get good info on sgml? I have the stuff installed
and I've built the docs on my machine but the man page is a bit thin. 

Doug

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 01:32:20 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:31:37 +0000
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc: doc@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: Documentation plan - handbook, etc.
References: <350CF5E6.5DD147F5@dal.net> <7061.890049804@time.cdrom.com> <19980316153125.64380@iii.co.uk> <350E3B8A.F440FBD0@dal.net>
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On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 12:59:54AM -0800, Studded wrote:
> nik@iii.co.uk wrote:
> > There's about to be a considerable amount of time and effort invested
> > in migrating the Handbook from the LinuxDoc DTD to the DocBook DTD, and
> > a large chunk of work has already gone into making sure that this can
> > be done without affecting the current content.
> 
> 	Ok, so am I to understand that the work hasn't actually commenced?

Yes and no. 

  - I have the tools. 

  - I've done several tests with the whole handbook. 

  - I've written up the plan for how the conversion will be handled, and
    solicited comment about it on the -doc mailing list.

  - I've talked with (and am talking with) some of the people who do the
    translations of the Handbook, to make sure that the conversion will not
    cause them undue problems.

  - I'm sorting out some final wrinkles with regard to the TeX conversion.

About the only thing that's causing me grief at the moment is the TeX 
conversion. Once I get that sorted (which will hopefully be a couple of
days) then I'll do the conversion and the commits it requires. I imagine
I'll be doing that this weekend.

> 	There was considerable discussion about the direction the docs should
> take on -questions less than a week ago and I never saw any firm
> statements regarding "This is what we will do," so I thought the debate
> was still open to be framed. 

Probably because I (and others) missed it. I tend to skim -questions, 
only looking for 'make world' related stuff. Also, if the discussion 
happened over a weekend I won't see it until Monday.

> > Go to your favourite list archive and read back through it for the past
> > month or 2 (alternatively, mail me at nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk and
> > I'll forward you my own archives).
> 
> 	I tried the archive at the www site and TMK there's no way to search
> specifying dates. I tried "february and 1998" but only got a few
> letters, none of which applied to the topic at hand. 

I'll forward you the appropriate messages. It may take me a couple of days
to find them all.

> > Probably the best thing to do would be for you to go through the existing
> > content in the Handbook (at a fairly high level) and see if the ordering
> > of the chapters can be improved, or whether or not you think some of the
> > information should be pulled out and made into its own section (or subsumed
> > into another, or whatever).
> 
> 	Actually the *first* question that needs to be answered is what do we
> want to end up with.  You can't make a good plan without a goal in mind.
> What was the consensus as to what the end product should be?

"Better than the current one". I don't recall there being a firm consensus,
except that "Something should be done."

I believe it's recognised that some of the content needs reordering, some
of the sections could be merged, some of the tutorials should be pulled
into the main body of the Handbook, and so on.

However, to the best of my knowledge, no one's (recently) read the Handbook
cover to cover and come back to the list saying "Here's a report of all
the things I noticed with the Handbook that are inconsistent, wrong, or
just don't feel quite right. This is how I think we fix them."

> 1.  What are the benefits of docbook vs. linuxbook? (Other than getting
> "linux" out of our stuff, which I'm all for. :)

It's got nothing to do with the name.

DocBook is a much more expressive DTD, allowing you to markup things up 
more precisely. This makes properly marked up content more useful.

For an example of DocBook markup, go to

   <URL:http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/>

and follow the SGML links.

> 2.  Will the final product allow the user to generate docs in multiple
> formats? The ones I'm most intersted in are http, pdf, ps and straight
> text. 

Yes. Off the top of my head the conversion process will allow HTML, PDF,
PS, plain ASCII and RTF. Right *now*, I don't fully understand the method
necessary to turn DocBook mark up into TeX. Once it's in TeX it can then
be converted to PS and PDF (via DVI).

> 3.  What came of the discussion on making the final product easily
> printable by the user?  I really think that this would increase the
> value of the final product tremendously. 

I followed the discussion and fully agree with it.

> 	I think that if you're serious about moving it into a new format the
> best bet would be to make concrete plans on the final format and kill
> all the birds with one shotgun blast. :)  

I have done. I'll find the appropriate message and forward it to you.

> 	Finally, where can I get good info on sgml? I have the stuff installed
> and I've built the docs on my machine but the man page is a bit thin. 

   <URL:http://www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html>    

is the SGML/XML page, which covers the entirety of SGML.

   <URL:http://www.oreilly.com/davenport/>

is the page for the Davenport group, who maintain the DocBook DTD.

   <URL:http://nis-www.lanl.gov/~rosalia/mydocs/docbook-intro.html>

is an introduction to DocBook.

   <URL:http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber/docbook/>

is John Fieber's page of DocBook information, resources and examples.

N
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 01:36:30 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:35:47 +0000
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Documentation plan
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On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 12:16:55AM -0800, Studded wrote:
> > > 1. I think that there is universal agreement that the first priority
> > > needs to be "up to the minute" pages where all important announcements,
> > > especially related to the upgrade procedure for -Stable and -Current
> > > will be posted. I think two pages is the best plan, one for each branch.
> > 
> > Yep.  These need to be both created and maintained on an ongoing
> > basis.  We've made a few false-starts at the former and never even
> > come close to the latter. :-( It takes dedication on the order of a
> > Doug White (-questions) or a Steve Price (GNATS) to do this
> > adequately, just to elevate those two to Icon status. ;-)
> 
> 	Ok, we need a volunteer. It needs to be someone with commit privileges
> to get the thing started, and then someone who can politely but firmly
> prod people into keeping it up to date. Unless I misunderstand, any
> committer can make www changes, yes? So people could be resonsible for
> their own "updates."  I think Nik would be a good person for this, but
> perhaps there is someone else interested?

<long quote kept for context>

I'll cheerfully do that, if other people will provide the content. Either
with content mailed to me directly (to the @freebsd.org address) or (and
this is probably the better approach) sent with send-pr.

I've got the time to commit the stuff, I just don't have the time to write
it (yet).

N
-- 
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 02:09:59 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:09:13 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc: doc@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: Documentation plan - handbook, etc.
References: <350CF5E6.5DD147F5@dal.net> <7061.890049804@time.cdrom.com> <19980316153125.64380@iii.co.uk> <350E3B8A.F440FBD0@dal.net>
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On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 12:59:54AM -0800, Studded wrote:

> 	Actually the *first* question that needs to be answered is what do we
> want to end up with.  You can't make a good plan without a goal in mind.
> What was the consensus as to what the end product should be?

Of course it should be something that new users _can_ use and will find
_rewarding_ to use, and keep them out of your hair :-) This raises a few
issues which have not been dealt with much because of an absence of target
audience. Catch 22.

> 	I would have the following questions re the project, my apologies if
> these were covered in the previous discussion. 

Oh boy, I can't wait to hear you rip someone to shreds for not using the
archives again! :-)


Now that you've baited me into speaking up... do you think it might be
possible for you and me to start cooperating, just for a change?
The work to be done is important enough to be treated impersonally.
I suggest we turn our radically different perspectives into an asset and
exploit them for the benefit of the project.


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 03:27:59 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:27:39 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: How the handbook was first used
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When I first installed FreeBSD at home, this is how I used the handbook and
the comments that I made on the sections at the time, as I recall them.

1.1 FreeBSD in a nutshell    Didn't contain essentials but read it anyway

2 Installing FreeBSD         A lot of info to take in, but necessary

3 Unix Basics                Bitterly disappointed

4.1 Installing packages      How could this one be empty?!

4.2 The Ports collection     What of this do I need? All? They still fail.

5  Configuring the kernel    Studied right after installing, worked well!

6 Users, groups and security   Bad title (users?). Not relevant, confusing.

7 Printing                   I don't have a printer, no comment

8 Disk quotas                Not relevant.

9 The X Window System        Empty? It doesn't work AND it's not here?!

10  PC Hardware compatibility   Good to have for reference

11  Serial Communications      Confusing. I hope I don't ever need it.

12 PPP and SLIP              PPP worked. Hard to pick out relevant info.

13 Advanced networking       Ignored

14 Electronic Mail           Ignored


19 Troubleshooting          Almost doesn't exist. What a tease!

25 Bibliography             Very useful, often consulted, wish more


15-end (not 19, 25)         Ignored


NOTE: These were my impressions when first using the handbook,
not necessarily my current impressions.


If info could be added for Packages, X and Troubleshooting (if it hasn't
already) that'd make a big improvement right away.


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 05:36:59 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:35:27 +0900
From: Jun Kuriyama <kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>
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Nik Clayton wrote:
>    * Norm Walsh's Modular DocBook stylesheet, available at
>      http://www.berkshire.net/~norm/dsssl/docbook/.
> 
> In order to make the Handbook buildable with easily available FreeBSD tools,
> a port will need to be made of both Norm Walsh's DocBook stylesheets and the
> JadeTeX macros.

  I made a port for Norman's stylesheets and put into
     ftp://ports.jp.freebsd.org/pub/incoming/ports-jp/textproc/\
          dbstylesheet-980317.tar.gz
  I will send PR about this new port soon.


-- 
Jun Kuriyama // kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 06:06:52 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:05:53 -0800
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Subject: free bsd
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Hi, I was looking at your operating system and I thought it looked pretty
good.  There was a few things I wanted to ask before I got it going,

1.  Can FreeBSD and Windows95 coexhist on the same computer?

2.  Do you have any screen shots of FreeBSD?

3.  Is there supposed to be a file on the boot disk after I run the
fdimage.exe program?


Could you please respond to these questions.

		
			Thank You


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 06:45:12 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:45:00 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Jared <cannon_fodder@softhome.net>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: free bsd
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First, this is the wrong mailing list.  These questions should go to
freebsd-questions - please send them there.

On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 06:05:53AM -0800, Jared wrote:
> Hi, I was looking at your operating system and I thought it looked pretty
> good.  There was a few things I wanted to ask before I got it going,
> 
> 1.  Can FreeBSD and Windows95 coexhist on the same computer?

Yes.

> 2.  Do you have any screen shots of FreeBSD?

There are some on www.cdrom.com, I think.  However, FreeBSD can look
like a lot of things - you could e.g get your FreeBSD display to look
like this: http://www.gnome.org/screenshots/ElectricEyes.gif

That's if you're running the Enlightenment window manager with the
default 'theme'.  I don't know just what kind of computer that picture
was from, but I can easily make my FreeBSD look like that :-)

> 3.  Is there supposed to be a file on the boot disk after I run the
> fdimage.exe program?

Nope.  (Or rather, Not From DOS.  It use a different filesystem).

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 07:36:38 1998
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Handbook: (Mitsumi (all models) proprietary interface (mcd))

Hello,
	I just recently bought the FreeBsd book from Walnut CDROM
and I think you guys are doing a great job. I'm going to buy a CDROM
specifically recognized by Freebsd and my question is, what is meant by
"proprietary interface". Does this mean that a seperate card also come
with the CDROM? I'm going to get a Mitsumi 16X drive today.

Thanks ahead of time.

J.R.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 08:01:22 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:59:52 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: "J.R." <jr@thunderstorm.net>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Proprietary interface
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This is the wrong mailing list, probably.  Questions should go to
'questions@freebsd.org' :-)

On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 10:37:22AM -0800, J.R. wrote:
> Handbook: (Mitsumi (all models) proprietary interface (mcd))
> 
> Hello,
> 	I just recently bought the FreeBsd book from Walnut CDROM
> and I think you guys are doing a great job. I'm going to buy a CDROM
> specifically recognized by Freebsd and my question is, what is meant by
> "proprietary interface". Does this mean that a seperate card also come
> with the CDROM? I'm going to get a Mitsumi 16X drive today.

That means a separate card, yes.

I don't know if Mitsumi still creates special interfaces; I thought
everybody had switched to IDE and SCSI.  I'd recommend going with a
SCSI CD-ROM if you can/want to afford it, and an IDE otherwise.

Eivind.


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 08:14:30 1998
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Organization: Pluto Technologies
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To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
CC: John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com>, "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
        Studded <Studded@dal.net>, FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Documentation plan?
References: <27422.890094715@time.cdrom.com> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980316222118.316C-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980317180815.17122@freebie.lemis.com>
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> Interesting idea.  Yes, I think you're right.  I'm prodding somebody
> to volunteer, but won't mention names at this point.  Failing an
> editor, at least a system of reviewing would be a good idea.  What do
> other people think?

Absolutely.  Editors and reviewers provide quite valuable and yet
undervalued services to authors.  It's amazing, after looking over
things I've written years ago that were never reviewed, just how
terrible and confusing certain passages sounded.  It made perfect sense
when I composed them, yet the comprehension in thinking about what's to
be written doesn't quite pass into what's actually written.

--Sean

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 08:59:36 1998
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To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
cc: FreeBSD-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Documentation plan 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:16:55 PST."
             <350E3177.8F52760C@dal.net> 
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:58:27 -0800
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> 	Agreed, but that's not going to get done before 2.2.6. Getting some
> "users" to look through the docs and pick out the really glaring stuff

I seriously doubt that anything substantive is going to be done before
2.2.6 and was thinking longer term with this.  If you guys actually
get anything done in time to effect the CD contents, I shall be very
surprised indeed. :)

					Jordan

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 09:22:45 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:23:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Greg Pavelcak <gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu>
Subject: doc "renovation" project volunteer
To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
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Hi,

I'm Greg Pavelcak. I have been using FreeBSD since about last June. I
like it, and I would like to contribute to its continued success. Since
I have no training in programming, I don't anticipate writing any
worthwhile code any time soon; consequently, I see the doc project as an
opportunity to make a small contribution in another way.

So, consider me a volunteer. If you would like to e-mail me directly
with suggestions as to how I can help, please feel free to do so.
Otherwise, I'll keep my eye on the doc mailing list.

Greg


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 10:27:48 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 05:27:19 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Greg Pavelcak <gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <0EPZ00GOH49A6Z@pobox1.oit.umass.edu>
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On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 12:23:46PM +0000, Greg Pavelcak wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm Greg Pavelcak. I have been using FreeBSD since about last June. I
> like it, and I would like to contribute to its continued success. Since
> I have no training in programming, I don't anticipate writing any
> worthwhile code any time soon; consequently, I see the doc project as an
> opportunity to make a small contribution in another way.
> 
> So, consider me a volunteer. If you would like to e-mail me directly
> with suggestions as to how I can help, please feel free to do so.
> Otherwise, I'll keep my eye on the doc mailing list.

OK guys, now you have an audience of two.
Let's get this show on the road.

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 11:42:59 1998
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Is there time to make a few minor changes to the handbook before the next CD
or not?

I'd have time to look through the handbook on Thursday and report anything
that looks urgent to me. Worth bothering? Worth rushing?

Here's some ideas for starters.
Is the handbook version on www.freebsd.org the latest?

Any chance of getting *something* about X in there right away, even a
paragraph or two, even a link to something? It really looks daggy empty
and generates lots of questions (setup, startx, exiting, path, window
manager needed).

Under MS-DOS Users, Can I mount extended partitions, does /dev/sd0s5 (or
whatever) have to be created first? If so, it'd help to say so here.
BTW, these days Windows users will skip this section (What's MS-DOS?).

What happened to Troubleshooting? :-(
There's a few things that'd be real quick to add in there (panic can't mount
root, etc) or stick'm on a web page somewhere and link to it from here.

Long term, Unix Basics should contain some. Short term, how about pointing
to a few on line tutorials. A quick easy big improvement.



-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 11:58:30 1998
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Is it worthwhile for someone to quickly knock this into shape or not?


The X Window System


This section is yet to be written.

Briefly, to get X running you will need to

- Install the X window system [from sysinstall or ports?]
- Configure it for your monitor and mouse [brief warning about damage]
- Install and configure the window manager of your choice

There are many ways to start X. One is to type 'startx' at the commandline.
If it doesn't work, check [that X is installed and in your path]

Your window manager will give you a method of getting out of X, but in case
at some stage you can't find it, remember the magic keys Ctrl-Alt-Backspace.

Further information is available at [URLs]. If you have problems that can't
be solved after looking there, send mail to FreeBSD-questions

For browsing HTML documents without using X, lynx [is available from...]


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 12:36:46 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:35:52 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: nik@iii.co.uk
Cc: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, doc@FreeBSD.ORG,
        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: Documentation plan - handbook, etc.
References: <350CF5E6.5DD147F5@dal.net> <7061.890049804@time.cdrom.com> <19980316153125.64380@iii.co.uk> <350E3B8A.F440FBD0@dal.net> <19980317093137.48803@iii.co.uk>
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On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 09:31:37AM +0000, nik@iii.co.uk wrote:

> > 2.  Will the final product allow the user to generate docs in multiple
> > formats? The ones I'm most intersted in are http, pdf, ps and straight
> > text. 
> 
> Yes. Off the top of my head the conversion process will allow HTML, PDF,
> PS, plain ASCII and RTF. Right *now*, I don't fully understand the method
> necessary to turn DocBook mark up into TeX. Once it's in TeX it can then
> be converted to PS and PDF (via DVI).

Does the PDF conversion produce a document with bookmarks and hyperlinks? I
have reservations about PDF because not everyone has the browser, but if PDF
is used, it should have its most useful features enabled. Apparently some
windoze victims seem to think it's a good idea, and it prints well.

In particular, a PDF version of the handbook would be worth the effort of
doing well. So much so that I'd be prepared to add the links with this
hideous little Adobe app that's hiding on my NT partition, if your
conversion process doesn't do it all. The input could be ps or pdf or rtf.
If I got run over by a bus there'd still be a usable plain version.

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 13:24:27 1998
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Greetings, :)

	For those who might not be aware there is a movement afoot to renovate
the documentation associated with the FreeBSD Project. This will be an
excellent opportunity for those of you (like myself) whose C coding
skills aren't adequate to contribute code, but would like to help. 

	Due to the impending timetable for the release of 2.2.6 we are
prioritizing things a little differently than we might otherwise. The
first priority is to rewrite what we're referring to as the "FOO.TXT"
documents. These are the documents that are in the root directory of
each snapshot on the ftp site. Check out
ftp://releng22.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/2.2.6-980315-BETA/ for the
examples. We'd like to reorganize them around the following model:

README.TXT - Short, general introduction, table of contents similar to
the following, including some of what's in ABOUT.TXT now. Add a more
prominent pointer to the www page and resources available there.

INSTALL.TXT - Overhaul this a bit, add answer to the -questions FAQ,
"what do I download?," move all info on upgrading to,
UPGRADE.TXT - Information specific to upgrading.  Pull the info from
from various of the files already there, and improve/streamline/add to
it. (I think someone is already working on this?) 

HARDWARE.TXT - This is actually in pretty good shape. 

ABOUT.TXT - Consider losing this, the info that's there should basically
be in other places.

IMPORTNT.TXT - Start with changes from 2.2.5->2.2.6 like the disk slice
code, plus tidbits like /etc/sysconfig -> /etc/rc.conf, etc.

RELNOTES.TXT - Ideally, someone knowledgeable should diff 2.2.5 and
2.2.6 and make a list. (Yes, I'm serious.) Barring that, we need as much
good, detailed information about the changes as possible, preferably
with the big shiny things up front, then broken down into "Different
from 2.2.5, Different from 2.2.2, Different from 2.1," etc. 

	I plan to tackle README.TXT, the other bits are up for grabs. Barring
announcements to the contrary, the deadline for a good working draft of
your work will be March 23rd, with the rock solid deadline for all work
being 11:59pm PST March 27th. 

	The other short term project we have is for people to read through the
FAQ and Handbook and point out problems or inconsistencies. It would be
nice if someone could provide a more clear text along with this, but
details about the glaring errors are good too. The sooner you can get
these things in the better.

	In the long term we plan to completely overhaul the documentation
available on the www site and create one unified "Handbook" (hopefully
with a new name). This is a very complex undertaking and plans for it
are still being discussed. This work will certainly not be completed
before 2.2.6 is ready. 

	So how do you make a contribution?  First step is to subscribe to the
freebsd-doc list. All discussion regarding these projects will be held
there, and all follow-ups to this mail should be sent there. Next, if
you're interested in tackling any of the FOO.TXT docs (or if you have
other ideas on how they should be structured) please speak up on -doc.
Finally, if you want to be one of the handbook/faq readers, just get to
it. :) Send the info to (you guessed it) freebsd-doc@freebsd.org. 

Regards,

Doug

-- 
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 13:41:37 1998
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I've read the plan for converting the handbook to docbook format. Nik
has certainly done a lot of work on this and I think he should be
applauded. Assuming that we want the final product of the doc overhaul
to be in docbook format (and that certainly seems to be a reasonable
assumption) I don't see any problems in going ahead with this as
planned. If I understand the thing correctly, it will be easier to cut
and paste the bits we have into the final format if they are already in
docbook, yes?  Also, are plans being laid to convert the rest of the
docs on the www site too, like the FAQ and tutorials? Or will this be
fairly simple once we've got a method down for the handbook?

	The next set of questions I have relate to the timing of the changes.
Do we really want to make this change before 2.2.6 goes out?  What would
the advantages to that be?  It seems to me that time effort and energy
would be better served by tightening up and correcting the text we have,
shipping 2.2.6 with all of the docs in the old format and make the next
release the first to utilize the new. Overall I think that waiting to
make the conversion will result in the least headaches and the best
overall product. 

Doug

-- 
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 13:49:14 1998
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To: <freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: .doc files, etc.
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:49:06 -0600
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Spring break is afoot here in SE Texas, so I've got too much spare time.
Give me files!  I'm more than happy to proof/write.

--
Neal Rigney, PERnet Communications, (409)729-4638
neal@mail.pernet.net
"I've seen better bandwidth between two gorillas with flash cards!"


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 13:50:11 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:49:38 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, Docs Team <FreeBSD-Doc@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: docbook conversion
References: <350EEE0C.792C3D57@dal.net>
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On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 01:41:32PM -0800, Studded wrote:
> 	The next set of questions I have relate to the timing of the changes.
> Do we really want to make this change before 2.2.6 goes out?  What would
> the advantages to that be?  It seems to me that time effort and energy
> would be better served by tightening up and correcting the text we have,
> shipping 2.2.6 with all of the docs in the old format and make the next
> release the first to utilize the new. Overall I think that waiting to
> make the conversion will result in the least headaches and the best
> overall product. 

We will not have time to ship 2.2.6 with DocBook manuals no matter what, so
that isn't an issue.  As far as I've set my mind, 2.2.6 is frozen already;
certianly we won't have time to do any major changes before it.

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 15:24:15 1998
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Message-ID: <19980317232317.34032@nothing-going-on.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:23:17 +0000
From: Nik Clayton <nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk>
To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Getting jadetex to work on FreeBSD
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For those who are following the efforts to get the Handbook converted
from LinuxDoc to DocBook, I've had some success getting JadeTeX to work
on FreeBSD.

Here are my notes on the process so far. If you're an enterprising TeX
hacker with some time to spare I'd really appreciate you looking over
the following, trying it out, and letting me know where my lack of TeX
know-how is letting me down.

Cheers,

N

		 Notes on getting JadeTeX to work on FreeBSD

  This is some very rough and ready notes that get JadeTeX at least
  partially working on FreeBSD. Hopefully, this is enough to let the
  interested and knowledgable TeX hacker let me know what I've missed.

  I don't doubt there are things I've done wrong here, or workarounds that
  are unnecessary. I don't know TeX, but I'm working on it.

  Obviously, you need to have 'jade', which is in ports/textproc/jade.
  
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  1. Download and install teTeX 0.4.

     teTeX is in ports collection, so you can

        # cd /usr/ports/print/teTeX
	# make
	# make install

     or you can get it from the package.

  2. Configure TeX using /usr/local/bin/texconfig.

     From the menus, make the following changes. I'm not sure how many of
     them were specific to getting JadeTeX working:

      - Rebuild the ls-R database.

      - Change the hyphenation table. Uncomment the British and French
        entries.

      - Set the xdvi default papertype to something useful, I used A4.

      - Do the same for dvips.

      - In the Font menu, add global write permissions to the standard
        fonts tree. Probably a security hole if you're running on a system
	with lots of users, but I'm not.

  3. Download the jadetex package from CTAN,

         <URL:ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk/pub/archive/macros/jadetex/>

     You want the contents of that directory and its subdirectories.

  4. Extract jadetex to a temporary directory ('jadetex')

     Check the version you downloaded. My tests were with version 0.59
     (according to jadetex.dtx).
       
  5. Copy the contents of the 'cooked' subdirectory into the 'jadetex'
     (parent) directory.

     This is so that the hyperref (and other) stylesheets can be found.

         # cd jadetex
	 # cp cooked/* .

  6. Edit 'makefile' (or apply this patch). I had to make the following
     changes:

       - Comment out the references to pdftex and jadetexpdf, since a
         PDF capable TeX is not (or appears not to be) built from
	 teTex.

       - Change "tex -ini" to "initex", since the '-ini' flag is
         unrecognised.

       - Drop the use of 'kpsewhich' which doesn't understand the switches
         passed to it (on my system) and for which documentation is
	 lamentably lacking. Hardcode the target directory.	 

     Diffs for these changes:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- makefile.org	Tue Mar 17 22:31:20 1998
+++ makefile	Tue Mar 17 22:01:52 1998
@@ -1,20 +1,21 @@
-default: jadetex.fmt jadetexpdf.fmt 
+#default: jadetex.fmt jadetexpdf.fmt 
+default: jadetex.fmt
 
 basic: jadetex.ltx
 	tex jadetex.ins
 
 jadetex.fmt: basic
-	tex -ini "&latex" jadetex.ini
+	initex "&latex" jadetex.ini
 
 jadetexpdf.fmt: basic
 	pdftex -ini "&pdflatex" jadetexpdf.ini
 
-install: jadetex.fmt jadetexpdf.fmt
-	(TT=`kpsewhich -expand-var '$$TEXMFMAIN'`;cp jadetexpdf.fmt $$TT/web2c)
-	(TT=`kpsewhich -expand-var '$$TEXMFMAIN'`;cp jadetex.fmt $$TT/web2c)
-	(TT=`kpsewhich -expand-var '$$TEXMFMAIN'`;\
-	-mkdir $$TT/tex/jadetex ; \
-	cp dsssl.def isoents.tex jadetex.ltx $$TT/tex/jadetex)
+#install: jadetex.fmt jadetexpdf.fmt
+#	(TT=`kpsewhich -expand-var '$$TEXMFMAIN'`;cp jadetexpdf.fmt $$TT/web2c)
+install: jadetex.fmt
+	cp jadetex.fmt /usr/local/share/texmf/web2c
+	-mkdir /usr/local/share/texmf/tex/jadetex
+	cp dsssl.def isoents.tex jadetex.ltx /usr/local/share/texmf/tex/jadetex
 
 clean:
 	-rm jade*.fmt *.log *.aux *.idx dsssl.def isoents.tex jadetex.ltx
@@ -22,7 +23,7 @@
 
 test:
 	jade -t tex -d art.dsl test.sgm
-	jadetexpdf test
+#	jadetexpdf test
 
 distrib:
 	(cd ..; zip -r jadetex jadetex/cooked jadetex/*.dtx jadetex/*.ins \
------------------------------------------------------------------------
     	 
  7. You can then 'make' and 'make install' (as root). This should just
     work.

  8. Now you need Norm Walsh's modular DocBook stylesheets. Download the
     current stylesheets from

         <URL:http://nwalsh.com/docbook/>

     (sorry, that's not quite the full URL which I don't have to hand, but
     the appropriate link should be obvious)

     Unpack the stylesheets, which should give you a /docbook/ directory.
  
  9. This should be enough for you to convert a sample file.

     The sample file I've used is available from

     <URL:http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/policy-incoming.sgml>

     Then, to convert this file do:

      % jade -t tex -d /path/to/docbook/print/docbook.dsl policy-incoming.sgml
      % tex "&jadetex" policy-incoming.tex

     which produces policy-incoming.dvi, which you can preview using xdvi.

 10. Problems

     - If you try and run the 'tex' command outside the jadetex/ directory it
       will fail, with

           This is TeX, Version 3.14159 (C version 6.1)
           Sorry, I can't find that format; will try the default.
           (policy-incoming.tex
           Babel <French> and hyphenation patterns for loaded.
           ! Undefined control sequence.
           l.1 \FOT
                   {}\Seq%

       I assume this is because the .sty and .ref files that are in the
       jadetex directory (which were originally in the cooked/ directory)
       haven't been properly installed for TeX.

       Does this mean we'll need ports for these as well as for JadeTeX?
       
     - xdvi throws out lots of warning messages like

           xdvi.bin:  special "html:<A name="31">" not implemented

       which is (I assume) something to with hyperlinking that hasn't been
       properly implemented.
       	
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From: "Zero" <zero0ne@netcom.ca>
To: <freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Some Help Please..
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:28:56 -0700
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Hello,=20

Well, this may be a big favor to be asking you guys.. But I really, =
really need your help.
When It comes to FreeBSD I am LOST.
A couple months ago I recieved my FreeBSD 2.2.5 cd-rom's I ordered from =
Walnut Creek, and I installed FreeBSD with no trouble.
And well, I'm lost now.
Is it possible to get a text, or ms word file from you guys which =
includes everything in the handbook.(I know it is in HTML but I really =
need a text file since it is much faster and simpler)
It would be extremely appreciated so I could use it as a refrence.


P.S.  If possible please include anything else which can help me out.

If this helps:
My Computer
Compaq Presario CDS 720
420 MB HD (Quantum)
33.6K US Robotics Internal Fax Modem
NE2000 Ethernet network card
2 button MS compatible mouse
14" Presario 140 monitor
Cirrus Logic 5429/30/34 video card
MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-571
Generic NEC Floppy Disk
36 MB of Ram
Pentium Overdrive 83 Mhz

If you can send me a FreeBSD configuration for this hardware it would be =
perfect..

Thanks,
    Nick Shumansky

e-mail: zero0ne@netcom.ca



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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hello, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Well, this may be a big favor to be =
asking you=20
guys.. But I really, really need your help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>When It comes to FreeBSD I am <FONT=20
color=3D#ff0000>LOST<FONT color=3D#000000>.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#ff0000><FONT =
color=3D#000000>A couple=20
months ago I recieved my FreeBSD 2.2.5 cd-rom's I ordered from Walnut =
Creek, and=20
I installed FreeBSD with no trouble.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#ff0000><FONT =
color=3D#000000>And=20
well, I'm lost now.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#ff0000><FONT =
color=3D#000000>Is it=20
possible to get a text, or ms word file from you guys which includes =
everything=20
in the handbook.(I know it is in HTML but I really need a text file =
since it is=20
much faster and simpler)</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#ff0000><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2>It would be =
extremely=20
appreciated so I could use it as a refrence.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>P.S.&nbsp; If possible please include anything else =
which can=20
help me out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>If this helps:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><U><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>My=20
Computer</FONT></U></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Compaq Presario CDS 720</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>420 MB HD=20
(Quantum)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>33.6K US =
Robotics Internal=20
Fax Modem</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>NE2000 Ethernet network card</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2 button MS compatible mouse</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>14&quot; Presario 140 monitor</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cirrus Logic 5429/30/34 video =
card</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>MATSHITA CD-ROM CR-571</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Generic NEC Floppy Disk</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>36 MB of Ram</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Pentium Overdrive 83 Mhz</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If you can send me a FreeBSD =
configuration for=20
this hardware it would be perfect..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nick=20
Shumansky</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>e-mail: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:zero0ne@netcom.ca">zero0ne@netcom.ca</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><FONT color=3D#ff0000><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 21:09:01 1998
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Hi,
I was wondering and attempting to set up a section on my
system at home to train on.. IBM Aptiva E-40 (Radio Shack)
computer.. Would hate to have to delet all data to Install..
In short, Is there a way to Install freebsd on an exsiting
window '95 system?

Thanks;
Dave


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 22:14:05 1998
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From: "Abdulla Hamad M. AlAthba" <explorer@qatar.net.qa>
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Dear Sir,


I got this mail from my isp which i'll go to have Freebsd server,

Please i need a help to answer these Questions to have fast server, i'll use my server to be IRC server for Clients not as hub server

My server is Intel 333 Mhz and has 128 mb sdram with 2 GB HD.
So which is beter Number of file descriptors compiled in kernel: dynamically allocated or 2048 ?


Thanks

Best Regards

Abdulla


Hello,

	Before I begin installation, eMail me if there is any special partition
sizes you wish to have for the installation.  I myself always prefer to
have the root partition of 256 MB, my spool parition of 500 MB, and then
one large partition for the USR drive (which also contains the VAR).  If
you would like any non-default partitioning performed, please let me know
before Wednesday 10am EST.


James Fabin 





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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 22:14:16 1998
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Dear Sir,


I got this mail from my isp which i'll go to have Freebsd server,

Please i need a help to answer these Questions to have fast server, i'll use my server to be IRC server for Clients not as hub server

My server is Intel 333 Mhz and has 128 mb sdram with 2 GB HD.
So which is beter Number of file descriptors compiled in kernel: dynamically allocated or 2048 ?

Thanks

Best Regards

Abdulla
Hello,

	I am the person who will be installing your second FreeBSD Server.  I will
install the software and eMail you once the basic FreeBSD installation is
completed.  Since FreeBSD is free, and many people use it wanting to
customize it to their own taste, I always leave the software installation
CD in the CDRom drive so that you can easily modify the OS as you choose.
As you are aware, we are unable to provide support for FreeBSD (though we
can support the commercial BSDi & Windows NT).  As with all the free
software, security is a grave problem.  I urge you to stay informed through
your local FreeBSD Support Club or mailing list for all secuirty upgrades
and install them as soon as they become available.

	The installation of FreeBSD on your server will be version 2.2.5 from
Walnut Creek.  Once the installation is complete, you should install any
patches for your software that where released this year (prior to the Walnu
Creek release of FreeBSD 2.2.5).  Though I know this is basic security
procedures, I always make note to express this (many people honestly do
believe servers update themselfs).

The hard drive will also be formatted as you requested with the file descriptors set to 2048.  You (or your system administrator) will be responsible for customizing the kernal
to fit your software requirements.  For your convience, we leave the
default kernal installed.



James Fabin 
System Administrator






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From owner-freebsd-doc  Tue Mar 17 22:46:37 1998
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Sean Kelly wrote:

> > Interesting idea.  Yes, I think you're right.  I'm prodding somebody
> > to volunteer, but won't mention names at this point.  Failing an
> > editor, at least a system of reviewing would be a good idea.  What do
> > other people think?
> 
> Absolutely.  Editors and reviewers provide quite valuable and yet
> undervalued services to authors.  It's amazing, after looking over
> things I've written years ago that were never reviewed, just how
> terrible and confusing certain passages sounded.  It made perfect sense
> when I composed them, yet the comprehension in thinking about what's to
> be written doesn't quite pass into what's actually written.
> 
Rather like the brilliant Ideas I get falling to sleep.

Count me in as a reader/reviewer volunteer also.

I am also a pending victim of such readers with an aforementioned
project. Needed is a format for submitted drafts. I need that now.
Any such project needs "style sheets" to help structure the input.

I think at least two or three layers are needed. A group of reviewers
who jury the submissions and work at an interactive level with the
author, an editor/editorial board to do the final cut - giving the author
a yes/no review, and finally a production level that produces the work.

Any such structure takes time to build. I detect some sentiment for
taking that time, with which I concur. The documents need to be
done with care so that the first iteration can get the newest user
going. There is a sense of urgency as well and that should be directed
at the same target - with the READMEs etc. and a "startup" web page -
"step 1, step 2, etc."

John


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To: Neal Rigney <neal@pernet.net>
CC: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: .doc files, etc.
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Neal Rigney wrote:
> 
> Spring break is afoot here in SE Texas, so I've got too much spare time.
> Give me files!  I'm more than happy to proof/write.

	Ok, go to ftp://releng22.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD and pick the most
recent 2.2.6 beta. Take a look at the files in the root directory, skim
through them and then pick what you want to write along the following
outline:


README.TXT - Short, general introduction, table of contents similar to
the following, including some of what's in ABOUT.TXT now. Add a more
prominent pointer to the www page and resources available there.

INSTALL.TXT - Overhaul this a bit, add answer to the -questions FAQ,
"what do I download?," move all info on upgrading to,
UPGRADE.TXT - Information specific to upgrading.  Pull the info from
from various of the files already there, and improve/streamline/add to
it. (I think someone is already working on this?) 

HARDWARE.TXT - This is actually in pretty good shape. 

ABOUT.TXT - Consider losing this, the info that's there should basically
be in other places.

IMPORTNT.TXT - Start with changes from 2.2.5->2.2.6 like the disk slice
code, plus tidbits like /etc/sysconfig -> /etc/rc.conf, etc.

RELNOTES.TXT - Ideally, someone knowledgeable should diff 2.2.5 and
2.2.6 and make a list. (Yes, I'm serious.) Barring that, we need as much
good, detailed information about the changes as possible, preferably
with the big shiny things up front, then broken down into "Different
from 2.2.5, Different from 2.2.2, Different from 2.1," etc. 

	I plan to do README myself, but the others are up for grabs. :)  If a
better scheme of organization occurs to you, write back to the list and
tell us what you think.

Thanks, :)

Doug

-- 
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 00:41:36 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:41:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
cc: Greg Pavelcak <gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
In-Reply-To: <19980318052719.17405@welearn.com.au>
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 12:23:46PM +0000, Greg Pavelcak wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'm Greg Pavelcak. I have been using FreeBSD since about last June. I
> > like it, and I would like to contribute to its continued success. Since
> > I have no training in programming, I don't anticipate writing any
> > worthwhile code any time soon; consequently, I see the doc project as an
> > opportunity to make a small contribution in another way.
> > 
> > So, consider me a volunteer. If you would like to e-mail me directly
> > with suggestions as to how I can help, please feel free to do so.
> > Otherwise, I'll keep my eye on the doc mailing list.
> 
> OK guys, now you have an audience of two.
> Let's get this show on the road.
Three.
*flex documenting muscle*
I'm throwing together a step-by-step on doing an installation.
And I DO mean step by step.
I first installed 2.1.6 in Jan of '97, from FLOPPIES.
What was I thinking?

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|       FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be       |
* "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is *
| that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."|
*    fullermd@futuresouth.com      :-}  MAtthew Fuller    *
|      http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd          |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*




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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 01:29:35 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:29:25 +0000
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
Cc: Studded <Studded@dal.net>, doc@FreeBSD.ORG,
        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Subject: Re: Documentation plan - handbook, etc.
References: <350CF5E6.5DD147F5@dal.net> <7061.890049804@time.cdrom.com> <19980316153125.64380@iii.co.uk> <350E3B8A.F440FBD0@dal.net> <19980317093137.48803@iii.co.uk> <19980318073552.00770@welearn.com.au>
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On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 07:35:52AM +1100, Sue Blake wrote:
> > Yes. Off the top of my head the conversion process will allow HTML, PDF,
> > PS, plain ASCII and RTF. Right *now*, I don't fully understand the method
> > necessary to turn DocBook mark up into TeX. Once it's in TeX it can then
> > be converted to PS and PDF (via DVI).
> 
> Does the PDF conversion produce a document with bookmarks and hyperlinks? 

Apparently. I haven't got the PDF conversion stuff sorted yet, because I've
only just started to get to grips with the TeX conversion.

See <URL:http://www.mulberrytech.com/dsssl/dssslist/archive/0771.html>

Hopefully my earlier message to this list contained enough information so
that those folks that know TeX but don't know Jade can get started and offer
up some advice.

> I have reservations about PDF because not everyone has the browser, but 
> if PDF is used, it should have its most useful features enabled. Apparently 
> some windoze victims seem to think it's a good idea, and it prints well.

I agree. Keep in mind though that PDF will be just one of a number of 
formats. One of the advantages of using SGML is that it is not tied to any
one platform and/or viewer. Adding new target formats just needs one 
motivated person to write the backend. There's no particular reason (other
than time) that there couldn't be a *roff backend to Jade, for example.

> In particular, a PDF version of the handbook would be worth the effort of
> doing well. So much so that I'd be prepared to add the links with this
> hideous little Adobe app that's hiding on my NT partition, if your
> conversion process doesn't do it all. The input could be ps or pdf or rtf.

That (hopefully) won't be necessary.

Incidentally, I did a test run with the current Handbook after doing a
quick and dirty conversion to DocBook. It works out at roughly 380 pages
of A4. . .

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 02:02:52 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:02:40 +0000
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc: Docs Team <FreeBSD-Doc@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: docbook conversion
References: <350EEE0C.792C3D57@dal.net>
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On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 01:41:32PM -0800, Studded wrote:
> Assuming that we want the final product of the doc overhaul
> to be in docbook format 

I think we can safely say that that's been decided upon.

> If I understand the thing correctly, it will be easier to cut
> and paste the bits we have into the final format if they are already in
> docbook, yes?  

In theory, yes. However, at the moment DocBook and LinuxDoc can't coexist
in the Handbook. If you have submissions to make to the Handbook *now* then
they should be in LinuxDoc.

I don't know how long the conversion process will take to complete, and I
don't want to be a barrier to people who have updates they want to submit
now.

> Also, are plans being laid to convert the rest of the
> docs on the www site too, like the FAQ and tutorials? Or will this be
> fairly simple once we've got a method down for the handbook?

The FAQ should be a natural extension of the Handbook, albeit with a few
more bits of FAQ specific markup. This might be as simple as marking 
things up as:

    <para role="question">How do I do X?</para>

    <para role="answer">Do this, then do that, then do the other.</para>

Or it might get more involved and involve extending DocBook to something
like

    <question>
       <para>How do I do X?</para>
    </question>

    <answer>
       <para>Do this, then do that, then do the other.</para>
    </answer>

The first example can be mechanically converted to the second relatively
simply, so the precise turn this takes isn't important (yet).

As for the tutorials, in an ideal world they'll be converted as well. Of
course, the final call on this is up to the authors of the tutorials.

One of the things this will (should?) depend on is 2 style guides, one for
authors and one for the people doing the markup (some of the time this 
will be the same person).

I've started thinking about the markup style guide. Basically, this will
(initially) consist of a series of Q and A explaining which markup should
be used for which type of content.

> Do we really want to make this change before 2.2.6 goes out?  

I see no way in which the migration will happen before 2.2.6 goes out.
This is a non-issue.

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 02:07:35 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:07:01 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
Cc: Greg Pavelcak <gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <19980318052719.17405@welearn.com.au> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318024000.20481B-100000@shell.futuresouth.com>
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On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 02:41:20AM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote:

> > OK guys, now you have an audience of two.
> > Let's get this show on the road.
> Three.
> *flex documenting muscle*
> I'm throwing together a step-by-step on doing an installation.
> And I DO mean step by step.
> I first installed 2.1.6 in Jan of '97, from FLOPPIES.
> What was I thinking?

Bravo! But more to the point, what were you reading? :-)

I started in 96, installed it scores of times, but never got much beyond the
installation and tetris until a few months ago. I've been hanging out for
documentation that speaks kindly to me for a loooong time. I do hope our
motivation catches on.

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

find / -name "*.conf" |more


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 05:17:26 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:17:00 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: suggestions
References: <19980318064231.21215@welearn.com.au>
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On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 06:42:31AM +1100, Sue Blake wrote:
> Is there time to make a few minor changes to the handbook before the next CD
> or not?
> 
> I'd have time to look through the handbook on Thursday and report anything
> that looks urgent to me. Worth bothering? Worth rushing?

There is probably a chance of some changes, yes.  The handbook usually is
one of the things we can change latest.

Come up with diffs that implement the things you want, and they'll go in (at
least for empty sections, I can more or less guarantee this.  For other
sections, it is likely, but not certain).

Eivind.


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 05:34:23 1998
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From: Duncan Barclay <dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk>
To: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Pavelcak <gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu>,
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 18-Mar-98 Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 12:23:46PM +0000, Greg Pavelcak wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> > 
>> > I'm Greg Pavelcak. I have been using FreeBSD since about last June. I
>> > like it, and I would like to contribute to its continued success. Since
>> > I have no training in programming, I don't anticipate writing any
>> > worthwhile code any time soon; consequently, I see the doc project as an
>> > opportunity to make a small contribution in another way.
>> > 
>> > So, consider me a volunteer. If you would like to e-mail me directly
>> > with suggestions as to how I can help, please feel free to do so.
>> > Otherwise, I'll keep my eye on the doc mailing list.
>> 
>> OK guys, now you have an audience of two.
>> Let's get this show on the road.
> Three.
> *flex documenting muscle*
> I'm throwing together a step-by-step on doing an installation.
> And I DO mean step by step.
> I first installed 2.1.6 in Jan of '97, from FLOPPIES.
> What was I thinking?
> 
> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
>|       FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be       |
> * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is *
>| that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."|
> *    fullermd@futuresouth.com      :-}  MAtthew Fuller    *
>|      http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd          |
> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message

---
________________________________________________________________________
Duncan Barclay          | God smiles upon the little children,
dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned.
________________________________________________________________________

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From: Duncan Barclay <dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk>
To: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Pavelcak <gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu>,
        Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
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On 18-Mar-98 Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Sue Blake wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 17, 1998 at 12:23:46PM +0000, Greg Pavelcak wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> > 
>> > I'm Greg Pavelcak. I have been using FreeBSD since about last June. I
>> > like it, and I would like to contribute to its continued success. Since
>> > I have no training in programming, I don't anticipate writing any
>> > worthwhile code any time soon; consequently, I see the doc project as an
>> > opportunity to make a small contribution in another way.
>> > 
>> > So, consider me a volunteer. If you would like to e-mail me directly
>> > with suggestions as to how I can help, please feel free to do so.
>> > Otherwise, I'll keep my eye on the doc mailing list.
>> 
>> OK guys, now you have an audience of two.
>> Let's get this show on the road.
> Three.
> *flex documenting muscle*
> I'm throwing together a step-by-step on doing an installation.
> And I DO mean step by step.
> I first installed 2.1.6 in Jan of '97, from FLOPPIES.
> What was I thinking?
>

I'm trying hard to get my document and scripts that set up inn finished ASAP.
It is (will be) a joint tutorial on Inn/Suck plus a walk through on setting
them up.

An early version is at http://www.ragnet.demon.co.uk

I have stubstancially changed it over the past couple of days.
(Even started using refentry and defining by own entities, I must try
Jade again...) and will upload a new doc soon.

Duncan


---
________________________________________________________________________
Duncan Barclay          | God smiles upon the little children,
dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned.
________________________________________________________________________

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 07:32:20 1998
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From: Norbert Schauermann <norbert.schauermann@mchp.siemens.de>
Message-Id: <199803181531.QAA01295@alpha.mchp.siemens.de>
Subject: User-PPP documentation on sources
To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:31:07 +0100 (MET)
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Hi,

I'm looking for a documentation on the user-space-PPP-sources. 
Can you tell me if there is one and if yes, where?

Thanks in advance,

	Norbert

E-Mail: schauerm@informatik.tu-muenchen.de


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 08:31:17 1998
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Subject: Add to FAQ? How to produce an ASCII man page?
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Dear documentation project members!

I think

	man TOPIC | col -b > TOPIC.man.ascii

is a FAQ

People are moving from their DOS/Windows and for the first time they are
reading UNIX man pages in their old systems.

Laskavy@#UNIX (Undernet)

>Date:      Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:25:13 -0600
>From:      John-David Childs <jdc@nterprise.net>
>To:        Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>
>Cc:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>Subject:   Re: Saving a man page to a text file
>Message-ID:   <19971010232513.46633@denver.net>
>In-Reply-To:   <Pine.BSF.3.96.971009214358.27017B-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu>;
>from Annelise Anderson on Thu, Oct 09, 1997 at 09:46:09PM -0700
>References:   <19971009194037.43482@denver.net> <Pine.BSF.3.96.971009214358.270
>17B-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu>
>On Thursday October  9, 1997, Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>
> had this to say about "Re: Saving a man page to a text file":
>
>>
>>
>>
>> man xxx | col -b > xxx.txt
>>
>> works for me....try it, if it doesn't work let me know, 'cause
>> I've got it in the guide for newusers.
>>
>>       Annelise
>>
>
>Works great!
>
>
>--
>John-David Childs (JC612)       Enterprise Internet Solutions
>System Administrator            @denver.net/Internet-Coach/@ronan.net
>  & Network Engineer            1031 S. Parker Rd. #I-8 Denver, CO 80231
>As of this^H^H^H^H next week, passwords will be entered in Morse code.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 10:03:23 1998
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Hi

Sorry for the shit post from me. I screwed some testing up.

Duncan

---
________________________________________________________________________
Duncan Barclay          | God smiles upon the little children,
dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned.
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 11:57:14 1998
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laskavy@gambit.msk.su wrote:
> 
> Dear documentation project members!
> 
> I think
> 
>         man TOPIC | col -b > TOPIC.man.ascii
> 
> is a FAQ

	As Annelise alluded to it's in her excellent new users tutorial on
http://www.freebsd.org/tutorials/newuser/newuser.html. If you mean that
you'd like to see this question in the FAQ itself, we hope to be
restructuring the FAQ/Handbook/Tutorial system so that the information
you need is easier to find. We will definitely take your suggestion into
consideration when making those plans. :)

Thanks,

Doug

-- 
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 11:57:38 1998
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Matthew D. Fuller wrote:

> *flex documenting muscle*
> I'm throwing together a step-by-step on doing an installation.
> And I DO mean step by step.
> I first installed 2.1.6 in Jan of '97, from FLOPPIES.
> What was I thinking?

	Ok, INSTALL.TXT is all yours. :) Please make sure that you look over
the other FOO.TXT stuff since there are install tidbits scattered
through them that should be included. And remember, first draft deadline
is the 23rd.

Thank you,

Doug

-- 
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 12:35:22 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:35:14 -0600 (CST)
From: "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@futuresouth.com>
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Studded wrote:

> Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> 
> > *flex documenting muscle*
> > I'm throwing together a step-by-step on doing an installation.
> > And I DO mean step by step.
> > I first installed 2.1.6 in Jan of '97, from FLOPPIES.
> > What was I thinking?
> 
> 	Ok, INSTALL.TXT is all yours. :) Please make sure that you look over
> the other FOO.TXT stuff since there are install tidbits scattered
> through them that should be included. And remember, first draft deadline
> is the 23rd.
Shall I leave it in ASCII format, or stick it in HTML?  HTML would make it
easier to say:
For instructions on how to prepare for floppy installation, go <HERE>

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|       FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be       |
* "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is *
| that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."|
*    fullermd@futuresouth.com      :-}  MAtthew Fuller    *
|      http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd          |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*




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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 13:57:44 1998
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Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Studded wrote:
> 
> > Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
> >
> > > *flex documenting muscle*
> > > I'm throwing together a step-by-step on doing an installation.
> > > And I DO mean step by step.
> > > I first installed 2.1.6 in Jan of '97, from FLOPPIES.
> > > What was I thinking?
> >
> >       Ok, INSTALL.TXT is all yours. :) Please make sure that you look over
> > the other FOO.TXT stuff since there are install tidbits scattered
> > through them that should be included. And remember, first draft deadline
> > is the 23rd.
> Shall I leave it in ASCII format, or stick it in HTML?  HTML would make it
> easier to say:
> For instructions on how to prepare for floppy installation, go <HERE>

	The first priority is to get it into ascii so that it can be included
in the CD. Once that's done we can start talking about marking it up for
inclusion other places.

Doug

-- 
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On Wed, 18 March 1998 at 11:55:38 -0800, Studded wrote:
> laskavy@gambit.msk.su wrote:
>>
>> Dear documentation project members!
>>
>> I think
>>
>>         man TOPIC | col -b > TOPIC.man.ascii
>>
>> is a FAQ
>
> 	As Annelise alluded to it's in her excellent new users tutorial on
> http://www.freebsd.org/tutorials/newuser/newuser.html. If you mean that
> you'd like to see this question in the FAQ itself, we hope to be
> restructuring the FAQ/Handbook/Tutorial system so that the information
> you need is easier to find. We will definitely take your suggestion into
> consideration when making those plans. :)

Just out of interest, who are "we"?  Why is laskavy excluded?  I see
(and welcome) movement afoot to restructure the handbook, but I didn't
realise that posts had been appointed.

Anyway, you might also consider the following way to format a man page
in PostScript, for example ls(1):

  $ zcat /usr/share/man/man1/ls.1.gz | groff -mandoc > ls.1.ps

or

  $ zcat /usr/share/man/man1/ls.1.gz | groff -mandoc | lpr

Greg

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 14:57:56 1998
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Greg Lehey wrote:

> Just out of interest, who are "we"?  Why is laskavy excluded?  I see
> (and welcome) movement afoot to restructure the handbook, but I didn't
> realise that posts had been appointed.

	We are we. :) I'm not excluding anyone. If someone is interested in
contributing to the restructuring project all they have to do is get on
this list and contribute. I personally want to capitalize on the
momentum we've acheived to date and get things in motion. Anyone who
wants to help should get on the bus. :)

Doug

-- 
***         Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network       ***
*** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 15:16:03 1998
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To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
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I don't know if anyone else is as confused as I am, but it sure looks that
way. We've been cross-posting willy-nilly and dragging in people who haven't
seen what's going on, and then talking about various things all at once:

Problems for people (not) trying to follow -stable, and the practicalities
of providing alternative information sources for them.
Demonstrated support implications of possible changes in 2.2.6 and how
documentation could be used to help if they happen.
Both of these might be best left on -stable?

Quick urgent documentation changes to be included in 2.2.6.

The process of conversion to DocBook, and retraining in its use.

Longer term improvements to Handbook and FAQ:
 - restructuring (and/or rewriting)
 - filling out what's obviously missing; asking what's wanted
 - editing, testing, and selecting from what is written

Have I left anything out?

It makes it a lot easier to follow what's being addressed if only one of
these (and its implications for the others) is dealt with in a single post.
Even though (or because?) I've been watching everything, the writer's focus
is seldom clear to me.

Also, if newcomers are going to keep trickling in, maybe we need something
like a mini FAQ to explain in simple terms how all this documentation work
gets done, who does it, how, what happens to it, and what the correct
procedures are. Until now it's tended to be only those who know everything
who have contributed anything, but that's changing. The outcomes will be
good but the transition might be be rocky.

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 18:29:54 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:20:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>
To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
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	Just a quick note (it's tax time in America and I am supposed to
be calculating some weird thing):

	--I don't think there's any vision of what FreeBSD documentation
ought to look like in, say, a year or two...maybe the manual pages/FAQ/
handbook/other stuff as needed is okay, then again maybe before a lot of
work is done we ought to consider where we would like to go (Jordan has
a MiniFaq on Usenet)

	--It seems to me that one useful feature of a documentation system
in this rapidly changing world would be a way to manage multiple documents
from different sources (e.g., documents or articles mailed or saved to a
file from Usenet, mailing lists, web pages, ftp sites) that may relate to
the same topic.  (I have a pretty good way to do this in dos but nothing 
really equivalent in unix....at least not that I know of.)

	--There seems not to be anyone in charge, who functions as the
interface between the core team and the rest of the world and has enough
authority to make some decisions.  

	--The one part of the whole documentation project that seems to 
have direction and make progress is the uh, what do you call it, creating
documents in sgml and being able to produce them in any other format.
This is going well, but it's only one piece of the puzzle (although an
interesting one).

Annelise


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 18:39:27 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:34:06 +0900
From: Jun Kuriyama <kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>
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References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk> <19980311170823.64512@shale.csir.co.za> <19980311152540.43318@iii.co.uk> <35095A81.F35369D9@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp> <19980313170342.60995@iii.co.uk> <350C5776.3F9EBA34@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp> <19980315234025.15906@nothing-going-on.org>
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Nik Clayton wrote:
> Have you been able to use Jade's TeX backend to do the conversion?

  Not yet.  I will try it but I suppose this will be hard work.  JadeTeX
is for original TeX, but Japanese users use TeX which modified for
Japanese encoding (such as japanese/ptex).

> No I don't. I believe that Norman's stylesheets and the configuration
> options he provides should be enough to get started, although it probably
> won't look exactly like the current handbook.

  OK.  I think Japanese version of Handbook should use localized
stylesheet for it.  I will translate original English version of
Handbook stylesheet to Japanese when it appears.


  By the way,  I don't know how to make plain-ASCII format rendering
from DocBook with Jade.  Could you tell me command line options for it?


-- 
Jun Kuriyama // kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 19:09:42 1998
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Mectronic.net The Industry Newsletter for Professionals

Mectronic accepting requests to locate ANY Electronics
Industry-related Manufacturer in North America!
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This month on Mectronic.net:
March 18, 1998

FEATURED ARTICLES
****************************
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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 20:54:06 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:58:34 -0600 (CST)
From: John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com>
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Annelise Anderson wrote:

> 	Just a quick note (it's tax time in America and I am supposed to
> be calculating some weird thing):

How much we didn't make last year.

> 	--I don't think there's any vision of what FreeBSD documentation
> ought to look like in, say, a year or two...maybe the manual pages/FAQ/
> handbook/other stuff as needed is okay, then again maybe before a lot of
> work is done we ought to consider where we would like to go (Jordan has
> a MiniFaq on Usenet)

Sue Blake has also posted about her confusion on this as well. I guess
I'm one of those latecomers sliding in. I agree with you both.

A vision of where this is to go and an overall collaborative authority
are necessary for success. Shall we talk about this?

The documents must deal first and foremost with the needs of a new user.
One who does not know much other that they want to try FreeBSD. The
documentation as it stands now did not help me when I started  with
2.1.5 (downloaded and installed from dos partition).

FreeBSD is free but I've had to make a $400 investment in books to do 
what I want with it. This is not good. This needs to be fixed and I 
want to help.
 
<snip>
> 
> 	--There seems not to be anyone in charge, who functions as the
> interface between the core team and the rest of the world and has enough
> authority to make some decisions.  

Right, and there must be or there will be a bigger, faster version of
the same thing. 

Thanks to everyone who is participating in this.

John


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 21:37:48 1998
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To: John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com>
Cc: Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 10:58:34PM -0600, John Kenagy wrote:

> A vision of where this is to go and an overall collaborative authority
> are necessary for success. Shall we talk about this?
> 
> The documents must deal first and foremost with the needs of a new user.
> One who does not know much other that they want to try FreeBSD. The
> documentation as it stands now did not help me when I started  with
> 2.1.5 (downloaded and installed from dos partition).

A new mailing list has just been started for newbies. While the
documentation project is important, it is at least as important that
freebsd-newbies list be seen as something _for_ newbies to enjoy rather than
something to keep them either out of the way or doing useful work.

Having said that, I think that as a newbie I can draw on some of its members
to provide a willing documentation readership to give you experts some
feedback, so long as it doesn't overrun the newbies list in its formative
stages. We're an extremely sensitive lot and easily misinterpret.

I have volunteered before to review any documentation that is offered, but
it would be even better to have more than one newbie perspective. What I
propose is to announce in freebsd-newbies when specific help is required,
coordinate that help, and report back here. On the flip side, if newbies say
they're wanting something in particular in the way of docs I can gather
their thoughts together, present them here, and report back to -newbies.
That way you don't get bored or annoyed by incompetence and they don't get
made to feel small or under scrutiny. Of course this doesn't preclude any
other methods, but provides a workable structure.


> Thanks to everyone who is participating in this.

Too rite!! It feels like we're all coming together at last.


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

find / -name "*.conf" |more


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Hello,
	I am creating a unix newbie site and I would very much like to
have a local copy of the handbook on my site. I would in NO way take
credit for the work done on this tremondous project, I just would like to
create a site that anybody could come to and find exactly what they are
looking for. I am not making any profit on this site at all, no banners
nothing just basically want to contribute to both the FreeBSD and Linux
committees since they have both helped me over the years. 

	I am currently writting a tutorial on FreeBSD and one section
will be covering unix basics which I would like to insert into the
handbook since their is a lack of the basics in the handbook.

	I would not change the handbook content at all just change the
look so that it blends in with the site, background color "black" text
color "silver" stuff like that.

I am eargerly awaiting a response,

Steven Clark
webmaster@unixonline.com



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Wed Mar 18 23:15:17 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:15:55 +0200
From: Johan Kruger <jk@nanoteq.com>
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I am using Western Digital hard disk drives (IDE) with FreeBSD when I
install
network servers for customers, but after about a year ( 9 months ) the
Hard Disks
start getting bad sectors, and start to fail. Some of the customers
asked for Windows NT 4
and just one of these systems returned with a bad hard disk ( Western D
).

Do you know if there is a specific problem in FreeBSD with the
addressing of these
particular hard drives ? If not, do you have any suggestions please.

Thank you in advance.

e-mail: jk@nanoteq.com



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 00:24:54 1998
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Johan Kruger wrote:
> 
> I am using Western Digital hard disk drives (IDE) with FreeBSD 

	You want to send this question to freebsd-questions@freebsd.org.

Good luck,

Doug

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 00:29:09 1998
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To: Steven Clark <unixonline@www.unixonline.com>
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Steven Clark wrote:

[some snippage]
 
> Hello,
>         I am creating a unix newbie site and I would very much like to
> have a local copy of the handbook on my site. 

	You would probably be better off with a link to our site. Documentation
is (ideally) a very fluid thing and in particular we are working on
making many changes and improvements to ours in the next several months.
Additionally, although most of the stuff on our web site has no
restrictions on reproduction, my understanding is that certain parts of
our web site have different copyrights depending on the author's wishes. 

>         I am currently writting a tutorial on FreeBSD and one section
> will be covering unix basics which I would like to insert into the
> handbook since their is a lack of the basics in the handbook.

	Have you looked at the whole web site? There are several tutorials that
you might have missed, including one specifically directed at newbies.
We would of course be interested in any documentation you come up with
directed at new users as this is an important priority for any technical
endeavor. 

Good luck,

Doug

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 00:43:44 1998
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To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
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Sue Blake wrote:
> 
> I don't know if anyone else is as confused as I am, but it sure looks that
> way. We've been cross-posting willy-nilly and dragging in people who haven't
> seen what's going on, and then talking about various things all at once:
> 
> Problems for people (not) trying to follow -stable, and the practicalities
> of providing alternative information sources for them.

	I don't understand this sentence.

> Demonstrated support implications of possible changes in 2.2.6 and how
> documentation could be used to help if they happen.

> Both of these might be best left on -stable?

	Nik specifically requested that the discussion about documentation be
moved to this list. The offer was made for anyone interested in that
discussion to join this list. I do plan to post the information on how
to view the drafts of each of the FOO.TXT docs as they become available
to -stable, however I think Nik's request was a good one. 
 
> Quick urgent documentation changes to be included in 2.2.6.
> 
> The process of conversion to DocBook, and retraining in its use.
> 
> Longer term improvements to Handbook and FAQ:
>  - restructuring (and/or rewriting)
>  - filling out what's obviously missing; asking what's wanted
>  - editing, testing, and selecting from what is written
> 
> Have I left anything out?
> 
> It makes it a lot easier to follow what's being addressed if only one of
> these (and its implications for the others) is dealt with in a single post.
> Even though (or because?) I've been watching everything, the writer's focus
> is seldom clear to me.

	Rather than asking in general for people to be more clear you'd
probably be better off to ask specific questions when they occur to you.
I try to be very clear in my posts, however as a matter of perspective
very little of what you say in this letter makes any sense to me at all.
Maybe it's a language barrier. :)
 
> Also, if newcomers are going to keep trickling in, maybe we need something
> like a mini FAQ to explain in simple terms how all this documentation work
> gets done, who does it, how, what happens to it, and what the correct
> procedures are. Until now it's tended to be only those who know everything
> who have contributed anything, but that's changing. The outcomes will be
> good but the transition might be be rocky.

	So far the procedure you're asking for doesn't exist, so it would be
hard to document it. :)  I have been explaining to volunteers either in
private or to the list what the short and long term priorities are, and
as far as the FOO.TXT stuff goes I plan to continue doing that. I think
the fact that there is a lot of stuff up in the air right now probably
makes things more confusing than they might be, however that leaves us a
lot of room for growth and expansion. As I mentioned in my response to
Greg earlier today, the people making the decisions right now be us. I
know that we have support for solid improvements to the overall
documentation and the FOO.TXT stuff in particular. Nik's plan for the
docbook conversion were already approved, however nothing will happen
with it till after 2.2.6. So, I think rather than asking for a chain of
command carved in stone our focus should be on getting some stuff done.
:)

Doug

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 00:56:22 1998
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CC: John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com>,
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Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au>
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[ I'm keeping the cc list because I'm not sure who all is on -doc yet.
If you are, please let me know and I'll avoid cross-posting in the
future.]

Sue Blake wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 10:58:34PM -0600, John Kenagy wrote:
> 
> > A vision of where this is to go and an overall collaborative authority
> > are necessary for success. Shall we talk about this?
> >
> > The documents must deal first and foremost with the needs of a new user.
> > One who does not know much other that they want to try FreeBSD. The
> > documentation as it stands now did not help me when I started  with
> > 2.1.5 (downloaded and installed from dos partition).

	I agree with John on all points here. I'm sorry if he's missed the
discussion regarding "the vision thing," but if he wants to write me
privately I'll send him copies of my posts on the current plans and
priorities. Mine is not the only voice, however I'm coordinating the
short term project on updating the FOO.TXT stuff that goes in the root
directory of the CD. 

> A new mailing list has just been started for newbies. While the
> documentation project is important, it is at least as important that
> freebsd-newbies list be seen as something _for_ newbies to enjoy rather than
> something to keep them either out of the way or doing useful work.

	I don't see how -newbies and -doc have any relationship at all. They
exist for entirely different purposes. 
 
> Having said that, I think that as a newbie I can draw on some of its members
> to provide a willing documentation readership to give you experts some
> feedback, so long as it doesn't overrun the newbies list in its formative
> stages. We're an extremely sensitive lot and easily misinterpret.

	I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You want to be in charge of
picking people to review docs?  Why can't members of the -doc team who
want their stuff to be reviewed just post to -newbies and ask for help?
 
> I have volunteered before to review any documentation that is offered, but
> it would be even better to have more than one newbie perspective. What I
> propose is to announce in freebsd-newbies when specific help is required,
> coordinate that help, and report back here. On the flip side, if newbies say
> they're wanting something in particular in the way of docs I can gather
> their thoughts together, present them here, and report back to -newbies.
> That way you don't get bored or annoyed by incompetence and they don't get
> made to feel small or under scrutiny. Of course this doesn't preclude any
> other methods, but provides a workable structure.

	Hmmmm. I know I'll be on the -newbies list, and I would suggest that
anyone else seriously interested in producing documentation to be on and
read -newbies and -questions. If we're not paying attention to the needs
of the users, our efforts will be considerably less effective. Also,
although you are welcome to present  your perspective on what those
needs are, channeling input from various users through one person
eliminates the chief virtue of soliciting various perspectives. 

	I don't mean to sound negative, but I can't help thinking that you are
trying to make things more complicated than they need to be.

Doug

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 02:05:11 1998
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From: "Duncan Barclay" <dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:59:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
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References: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net>; from John Kenagy on Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 10:58:34PM -0600
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> Date:          Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:37:15 +1100
> From:          Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
> To:            John Kenagy <jktheowl@bga.com>
> Cc:            Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject:       Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
 
> I have volunteered before to review any documentation that is offered, but
> it would be even better to have more than one newbie perspective. What I
> propose is to announce in freebsd-newbies when specific help is required,
> coordinate that help, and report back here. On the flip side, if newbies say
> they're wanting something in particular in the way of docs I can gather
> their thoughts together, present them here, and report back to -newbies.
> That way you don't get bored or annoyed by incompetence and they don't get
> made to feel small or under scrutiny. Of course this doesn't preclude any
> other methods, but provides a workable structure.
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
>         -*Sue*-

Hi

I'm taking you up on your offer to review docs.
Can you have a look at the Usenet tutorial that I have written.
It isn't finsihed yet, but I would like feedback as to style and 
whether it is logical etc.

http://www.ragnet.demon.co.uk/mynews.html

I will try and put a newer version on later today at about 6pm UK 
time.

Things I am in the process of writing at the moment:
	- the Building/Configuring Inn chapter  is being updated to the 
	latest	  port.

	- the Building/Configuring Suck chapter ditto.

	- all output from the examples will be re run on a clean machine
	so they are up to date.

	- putting files on my website where I say they should be!

I wouldn't suggest that you actually try using it yet.

Once those things are done the primer should stand alone okay and
be ready for a link on the tutorials page so that people can get 
things up and running.

Next things to do are:
	- expand and write the inn overvierw properly.
	- expand the suck overview.
	- work out how to and write about re installing
	- more what happens if it goes wrong stuff,
	  (this will have to grow organically as people
	have problems!)
	the system with an existing new setup.
	- talk about cleverer things to do
		suck kill files
		news overview database
		linking crosspostings
		spam
	- others?

Thanks

Duncan


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 02:21:12 1998
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To: Annelise Anderson <andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
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On Wed, Mar 18, 1998 at 06:20:25PM -0800, Annelise Anderson wrote:
> 	--I don't think there's any vision of what FreeBSD documentation
> ought to look like in, say, a year or two...maybe the manual pages/FAQ/
> handbook/other stuff as needed is okay, then again maybe before a lot of
> work is done we ought to consider where we would like to go (Jordan has
> a MiniFaq on Usenet)

In general, I agree.

Damn, I need to stop reading this stuff at work. 

I think we need to recognise that different people expect different things
from the documentation. Those at the beginning of the learning curve need
more 'hand-holding', more examples and more explanations than those who 
are familiar with 'the Unix way of doing things'.

Some people just want short FAQ lists, so they can get to the meat of 
the solution to whatever problem they're having and solve it quickly. 
Still others want to understand why you need to do x, y and z in order
to get something to work.

About the only thing that links these documents is the task they describe.

For example, "Setting up PPP" can probably be split into

   - The PPP FAQs
   - A PPP Quickstart/tutorial
   - PPP in depth

Right now, those three roles are split between the FAQ, the tutorials and
the Handbook.

I'd like to see (and this is some months away, believe me) a system where
by all these things are suitably marked up. The documentation build process
can then be automated. 

This gets to the point where the documentation builder can 

   - Run one command, and all the FAQs from all the topics are collated 
     and built. The result of this is called "The FreeBSD FAQ".

   - Run another command, and all the quickstart tutorials are collated
     and built. The result of this is called "The FreeBSD tutorials".

   - Run yet another command and all the in depth stuff is collated and
     built. This is called "The FreeBSD Handbook".

   - Run still another command and get the "Everything you need to know 
     about PPP" documentation set, which consists of the FAQs, the 
     tutorials and the Handbook.

and, naturally, the result of this process will be available in HTML,
plain text, RTF, Postscript, PDF. . .

Thinking about this some more, there are other categories as well. For
example "All the e-mail that's been sent to -questions about PPP" is one
of them.

In essence, I think you need to view all the documentation resources about
FreeBSD has a homogenous lump that can be manipulated and extracted in 
different ways.

Right now, we don't have that.

> 	--It seems to me that one useful feature of a documentation system
> in this rapidly changing world would be a way to manage multiple documents
> from different sources (e.g., documents or articles mailed or saved to a
> file from Usenet, mailing lists, web pages, ftp sites) that may relate to
> the same topic.  (I have a pretty good way to do this in dos but nothing 
> really equivalent in unix....at least not that I know of.)

How do you do this in DOS?
 
> 	--There seems not to be anyone in charge, who functions as the
> interface between the core team and the rest of the world and has enough
> authority to make some decisions.  

What sort of decisions?

> 	--The one part of the whole documentation project that seems to 
> have direction and make progress is the uh, what do you call it, creating
> documents in sgml and being able to produce them in any other format.
> This is going well, but it's only one piece of the puzzle (although an
> interesting one).

For me, that's because

  - It relates to a part of what I do in my day job, so I can be learning
    about it in 'fun' context as well as a 'work' context.

  - I'm weird enough that I find this kind of thing intellectually 
    stimulating anyway.

  - Having the information in a usable form is a pre-requisite for being
    able to do useful things with it.

After I've got the conversion process nicely automated I expect to be able
to turn more of my attention to the fun stuff outlined above.

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 02:26:23 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:24:05 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net>
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On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 12:55:55AM -0800, Studded wrote:

> Mine is not the only voice, however I'm coordinating the
> short term project on updating the FOO.TXT stuff that goes in the root
> directory of the CD. 

Thank you for clafifying that.

> > A new mailing list has just been started for newbies. While the
> > documentation project is important, it is at least as important that
> > freebsd-newbies list be seen as something _for_ newbies to enjoy rather than
> > something to keep them either out of the way or doing useful work.
> 
> 	I don't see how -newbies and -doc have any relationship at all. They
> exist for entirely different purposes. 

Glad to hear you agree.

> > Having said that, I think that as a newbie I can draw on some of its members
> > to provide a willing documentation readership to give you experts some
> > feedback, so long as it doesn't overrun the newbies list in its formative
> > stages. We're an extremely sensitive lot and easily misinterpret.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You want to be in charge of
> picking people to review docs? 

No, I'm saying that since I'm involved in both lists, I will be the
go-between. I was neither talking about being in charge of people nor asking
for your personal consent.

There are alternative methods, but the majority of people here would find
them extremely distasteful.

> Why can't members of the -doc team who want their stuff to be reviewed
> just post to -newbies and ask for help?

Because people like you will go in and talk to them the way you have talked
to me in the past. That is not the best way to obtain cooperation, as you
must have discovered by now. If newbies can't have a space that is their
own, where they don't have to suffer being someone's underling, then the
list would lose much of its value. We might as well all join -hackers :-)
hey that'd be fun!!


> > I have volunteered before to review any documentation that is offered, but
> > it would be even better to have more than one newbie perspective. What I
> > propose is to announce in freebsd-newbies when specific help is required,
> > coordinate that help, and report back here. On the flip side, if newbies say
> > they're wanting something in particular in the way of docs I can gather
> > their thoughts together, present them here, and report back to -newbies.
> > That way you don't get bored or annoyed by incompetence and they don't get
> > made to feel small or under scrutiny. Of course this doesn't preclude any
> > other methods, but provides a workable structure.
> 
> 	Hmmmm. I know I'll be on the -newbies list, and I would suggest that
> anyone else seriously interested in producing documentation to be on and
> read -newbies and -questions. If we're not paying attention to the needs
> of the users, our efforts will be considerably less effective. Also,
> although you are welcome to present  your perspective on what those
> needs are, channeling input from various users through one person
> eliminates the chief virtue of soliciting various perspectives. 

I think you misunderstand, Doug, but it doesn't matter much.
Those who are interested and have the time are already showing their respect
by watching silently. You are more than welcome to do so too if you believe
you have anything to learn from newbies.


> 	I don't mean to sound negative, but I can't help thinking that you are
> trying to make things more complicated than they need to be.

Ditto. Relax, you've got more important things to worry about.


-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

find / -name "*.conf" |more


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 03:04:28 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:04:17 +0000
To: Jun Kuriyama <kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>
Cc: nik@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Convert to DocBook (was Re: ps2pdf)
References: <199803052049.PAA00460@hawk.pearson.udel.edu.> <19980305215748.36179@iii.co.uk> <19980311170823.64512@shale.csir.co.za> <19980311152540.43318@iii.co.uk> <35095A81.F35369D9@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp> <19980313170342.60995@iii.co.uk> <350C5776.3F9EBA34@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp> <19980315234025.15906@nothing-going-on.org> <3510841E.22A34C3A@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>
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On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 11:34:06AM +0900, Jun Kuriyama wrote:
> Nik Clayton wrote:
> > Have you been able to use Jade's TeX backend to do the conversion?
> 
>   Not yet.  I will try it but I suppose this will be hard work.  JadeTeX
> is for original TeX, but Japanese users use TeX which modified for
> Japanese encoding (such as japanese/ptex).

Right. There's a message of mine from a couple of days ago which explains
how to get output to work when using teTeX. It'll probably be helpful.
If you haven't got it let me know and I'll forward it to you.

>   By the way,  I don't know how to make plain-ASCII format rendering
> from DocBook with Jade.  Could you tell me command line options for it?

There aren't any. I'm expecting to produce the text version from the HTML 
(using something akin to 'lynx -dump' or similar). I'm about to fire a
question to the Davenport mailing list about this, and I'll get back
to you.

N
-- 
Work: nik@iii.co.uk                       | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache
Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk    | Remind me again why we need
Play: nik@freebsd.org                     | Microsoft?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 08:43:21 1998
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From: "White, James R" <James.White2@Wichita.BOEING.com>
To: "'freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG'" <freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Is there a power McIntosh version?
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:43:07 -0600
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Dear Sirs:
Is there a free BSD UNIX version that runs on a Mac or do I need to go
buy a PC?
Thanks.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 11:53:51 1998
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
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Subject: Re: Is there a power McIntosh version?
In-Reply-To: <6C7E2A10BB01D111929500400B406DDEBC0831@xch-wch-02.ks.boeing.com> from "White, James R" at "Mar 19, 98 10:43:07 am"
To: James.White2@Wichita.BOEING.com (White James R)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:51:48 +0100 (CET)
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
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According to White, James R:
> Is there a free BSD UNIX version that runs on a Mac or do I need to go
> buy a PC?

1) There might be support for the Mac you have. I think you should go look
   at NetBSD's homepage and see what support they have support for your
   type of Mac. I knoew some are supported. FreeBSD doesn't run on Macs.
   Try out:  http://www.netbsd.org/

2) Where did you get the address to this list? I'm affraid it's not really
   the right list for this kind of question, and you're not the first to
   "accidently" mail this list. It would be helpful if we could find the
   place where everyone is finding this list address. :-)

  /Mikael

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 13:25:58 1998
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Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au>
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Sue Blake wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 12:55:55AM -0800, Studded wrote:
> 
> > Mine is not the only voice, however I'm coordinating the
> > short term project on updating the FOO.TXT stuff that goes in the root
> > directory of the CD.
> 
> Thank you for clafifying that.

	No problem.

> > > A new mailing list has just been started for newbies. While the
> > > documentation project is important, it is at least as important that
> > > freebsd-newbies list be seen as something _for_ newbies to enjoy rather than
> > > something to keep them either out of the way or doing useful work.
> >
> >       I don't see how -newbies and -doc have any relationship at all. They
> > exist for entirely different purposes.
> 
> Glad to hear you agree.
> 
> > > Having said that, I think that as a newbie I can draw on some of its members
> > > to provide a willing documentation readership to give you experts some
> > > feedback, so long as it doesn't overrun the newbies list in its formative
> > > stages. We're an extremely sensitive lot and easily misinterpret.
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You want to be in charge of
> > picking people to review docs?
> 
> No, I'm saying that since I'm involved in both lists, I will be the
> go-between.

	Errrr... no. At least for me if I have something to say to the newbies
list about docs I will say it directly to them and ask them to respond
directly to me, or to this list as appropriate.

> I was neither talking about being in charge of people nor asking
> for your personal consent.
> 
> There are alternative methods, but the majority of people here would find
> them extremely distasteful.

	What exactly are you referring to?
 
> > Why can't members of the -doc team who want their stuff to be reviewed
> > just post to -newbies and ask for help?
> 
> Because people like you will go in and talk to them the way you have talked
> to me in the past. That is not the best way to obtain cooperation, as you
> must have discovered by now. If newbies can't have a space that is their
> own, where they don't have to suffer being someone's underling, 

	Where did you get the idea that I want to make the people on -newbies
underlings? 

> then the
> list would lose much of its value. We might as well all join -hackers :-)
> hey that'd be fun!!
> 
> > > I have volunteered before to review any documentation that is offered, but
> > > it would be even better to have more than one newbie perspective. What I
> > > propose is to announce in freebsd-newbies when specific help is required,
> > > coordinate that help, and report back here. On the flip side, if newbies say
> > > they're wanting something in particular in the way of docs I can gather
> > > their thoughts together, present them here, and report back to -newbies.
> > > That way you don't get bored or annoyed by incompetence and they don't get
> > > made to feel small or under scrutiny. Of course this doesn't preclude any
> > > other methods, but provides a workable structure.
> >
> >       Hmmmm. I know I'll be on the -newbies list, and I would suggest that
> > anyone else seriously interested in producing documentation to be on and
> > read -newbies and -questions. If we're not paying attention to the needs
> > of the users, our efforts will be considerably less effective. Also,
> > although you are welcome to present  your perspective on what those
> > needs are, channeling input from various users through one person
> > eliminates the chief virtue of soliciting various perspectives.
> 
> I think you misunderstand, Doug, but it doesn't matter much.

	I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but once again I think
we've reached the point where I do understand but I really don't like
what I'm hearing. 

> Those who are interested and have the time are already showing their respect
> by watching silently. You are more than welcome to do so too if you believe
> you have anything to learn from newbies.

	Are you actually telling me that I can listen on -newbies but you don't
want me to talk?

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 13:52:51 1998
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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:53:06 -0600
From: Guillermo Becerra Paredes <timgbp@tims.ericsson.se>
Subject: Freebsd
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Hi,
    I have a question about of the Freebsd, with this program can use
OFFICE 97 in a SPARCSTATION 5 of SUN with operative system solaris
2.5.1.

    Thank you for your help.

    My E-mail is timgbp@tims.ericsson.se

--Boundary_(ID_C1+yocKBzBVwJAKpsgxM6A)
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fn:             Guillermo Becerra
n:              Becerra;Guillermo
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title:          ENGINNER OF PROGRAM PRODUCTION
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--Boundary_(ID_C1+yocKBzBVwJAKpsgxM6A)--

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 14:36:50 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:33:25 +0000
From: J Schoun <schoun@ix.netcom.com>
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When reading the handbook (quite helpful I might add, I just followed
the instructions on how to work with kernel configuration to add my
sound card), it mentions that you make need to setup some "<>"s in order
for your sound card to work in the /dev dir. Currently there is no
/dev/dsp, so none of my audio programs will work. I looked later on in
the handbook in section 10.4.2, in hopes I could find more information
on creating this device, with no luck. Is there some documentation I
missed? Or what do I need to do to get my sound card online? Thanks!

-jeff
schoun@xcert.com


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 15:07:32 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:02:39 -0000 (GMT)
From: Duncan Barclay <dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
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On 19-Mar-98 Sue Blake wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 09:59:36AM +0000, Duncan Barclay wrote:
> 
>> I'm taking you up on your offer to review docs.
>> Can you have a look at the Usenet tutorial that I have written.
>> It isn't finsihed yet, but I would like feedback as to style and 
>> whether it is logical etc.
> 
> Sure!
> 
>> 
>> http://www.ragnet.demon.co.uk/mynews.html
>> 
>> I will try and put a newer version on later today at about 6pm UK 
>> time.
> 
> I've grabbed a copy and will update it tomorrow morning (it's 10:30pm now).
> 
> This morning I received another large document to review so it won't be real
> quick, but I can start giving you bits of feedback as I go through it.
> 
> This is a subject area about which I know nothing and have never attempted
> to learn. I'm not real sure at this stage exactly what you're hoping to get
> out of this process, but I'm interested to have a look anyway. Would you
> like me to poke around the newbies list and/or friends for someone with a
> tiny bit more relevant experience? Probably best to wait a couple of days
> until more of them reveal themselves anyway.
> 

I have just uploaded a new version of the documentation, 23:00 UK time.
Read the info at
http://www.ragnet.demon.co.uk/
for some "non release" notes!

Duncan

---
________________________________________________________________________
Duncan Barclay          | God smiles upon the little children,
dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned.
________________________________________________________________________

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 17:36:02 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:36:34 -0800
From: Cliff Neighbors <cliff@pluris.com>
Reply-To: stencil@scruznet.com
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the device driver writers' guide
http://www.freebsd.org/tutorials/ddwg/ddwg.html
appears to be very preliminary or "under construction."

The date on that document (Wednesday, May 29, 1996)
is nearly 2 yrs. ago.

is this the final version of the document?
is there a more comprehensive version somewhere?
is this doc obsolete and is there a new doc that covers the same subject
matter?

thanks for any info,

    -cliff-

---
cliff neighbors
sr. member technical staff
pluris network systems, inc.
cliff@pluris.com
408-863-9920 x317
---



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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 19:51:31 1998
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:   I notice that we haven't had a chinese documentaion for FreeBSD yet.
: Is anyone working on it? I'd like to translate something.
There are some BIG5-encoding Chinese documents on:
http://bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw/cgi-bin/bbs2html_cgi?boards/BSD/
http://bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw/cgi-bin/bbs2html_cgi?boards/FT.cdrom/

BBS is rather popular in Taiwan, we FreeBSD fans usually share info
via BBS system, and the system then communicate with other BBSs
via news(nntp) system.

The URLs mentioned above is actually "digest of disscussion(just like
"archive" in mailing list)". We wrote a CGI program to make these articles
easier for web browser accessing.

telnet://bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw
We have some "boards"(discussing categories) about FreeBSD:
BSD             <->             tw.bbs.comp.386bsd
FB.doc          <->             freebsd-doc@freebsd.org
FB.chat         <->             freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
...
FT.chat         <->             freebsd.taiwan.chat
FT.cdrom        <->             freebsd.taiwan.woju-cdrom
...

                                        woju

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 21:42:48 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:42:34 -0600
From: dannyman <dannyman@SASQUATCH.dannyland.org>
To: schoun@xcert.com, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: handbook section 10.4.2
References: <35119D35.6413BE22@ix.netcom.com>
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On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 10:33:25PM +0000, J Schoun wrote:
> When reading the handbook (quite helpful I might add, I just followed
> the instructions on how to work with kernel configuration to add my
> sound card), it mentions that you make need to setup some "<>"s in order
> for your sound card to work in the /dev dir. Currently there is no
> /dev/dsp, so none of my audio programs will work. I looked later on in
> the handbook in section 10.4.2, in hopes I could find more information
> on creating this device, with no luck. Is there some documentation I
> missed? Or what do I need to do to get my sound card online? Thanks!

cd /dev ; sh MAKEDEV dsp

iirc, hth

-dan

-- 
  //Dan   -=-     This message brought to you by djhoward@uiuc.edu    -=-
\\/yori   -=-    Information - http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/   -=-
aiokomete -=-   Our Honored Symbol deserves an Honorable Retirement

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Thu Mar 19 23:41:35 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:39:59 +0100
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Guillermo Becerra Paredes wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>     I have a question about of the Freebsd, with this program can use
> OFFICE 97 in a SPARCSTATION 5 of SUN with operative system solaris
> 2.5.1.

First off, this is not the place to ask this question. Go to
freebsd-questions.

Nevertheless:

*) FreeBSD is an Operating System, not a program. So, either you have
Solaris or you have FreeBSD.
*) FreeBSD does not run on SparcStations currently, so if that is your
platform, you'll have to stick with Solaris. 
*) Office97 is a Windows 95/98/NT application. I'd be surprised if it
ran on anything else, so you'll have to stick with a PC under one of the
OSs mentioned.

> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 15:53:06 -0600

Either your machine's clock is a bit off, or your mail relay is somewhat
lagging ...


Michael Schuster

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 20 03:32:35 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 22:32:02 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au> <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net>
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On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 01:25:46PM -0800, Studded wrote:

> 	Errrr... no. At least for me if I have something to say to the newbies
> list about docs I will say it directly to them and ask them to respond
> directly to me, or to this list as appropriate.

This threat is unwelcome. If you are saying that you intend to make this as
difficult as you possibly can, to the point of acting wilfully against the
purposes of a mailing list, then I suggest you have picked the wrong person,
the wrong list, and the wrong day. You did your best to stop the newbies
from having their own list, and now you want to make use of them for your
own convenience at the risk of destroying their enclave.

Jump in as you plan and you will only prove their suspicion, that newbies
will never be granted a place free from patronising scrutiny, somewhere they
can relax and learn to be self-sufficient and start helping each other to
depend on the resources you want to give them, instead of depending on you.

If you sit back and wait a little while, you'll see that a lot of good can
and will be done for the documentation project if and only if you stop
trying to tell me and everyone else what they want. Keep going the way you
are and you'll obtain some short-term advantage by stealth but spoil every
chance for long-term benefit to everyone. We all have an interest in this
working out, even you.

Before you can even contemplate writing well for an audience, you have to
know and understand them. Give them a chance to speak freely, listen, and
learn, show genuine respect for who and what they are, and give them a
chance to be what they are on their own terms. Find out what they *can* do
and *will* do on their own, and gradually build from there. Or go do some
coding or something that doesn't hurt people.

You've got a so much else to offer, I don't understand why you want to spoil
what others are trying to do for themselves when they don't need your help.

> > Because people like you will go in and talk to them the way you have talked
> > to me in the past. That is not the best way to obtain cooperation, as you
> > must have discovered by now. If newbies can't have a space that is their
> > own, where they don't have to suffer being someone's underling, 
> 
> 	Where did you get the idea that I want to make the people on -newbies
> underlings? 

I never said you want to, but you know so much it's automatic. And I don't
think you and a couple of others realise how abrasive and overbearing you
come across at times. It's taken me two miserable years to have the courage
to say Doug, you make me feel like giving up when you talk like that. You
make me feel afraid to admit when I can't understand some manual, or just
pretend I've lost interest to save face. I'm only standing up to you now
because I feel like you've pushed me into a corner, there's no other options
left, and nothing more to lose. We can't wait two years for the others to
start feeling happy about learning by their own steam.

In the long term we cannot keep producing documentation that is designed for
dependent learners. At the moment, they are the only kind we're producing
because they are the only kind that we love to hate to accommodate. I'm
willing to fight tooth and nail for that to change, but without your
bombastic interference it wouldn't be a fight at all. It's what newbies want
now and long term it's what everyone wants, even you Doug. Think about it.

> 	Are you actually telling me that I can listen on -newbies but you don't
> want me to talk?

Yes indeed I am, the same as we newbies do on -hackers, -chat, -ports...
Unless you'd like the whole system to be changed immediately.

We're talking about having newbies working together learning how to learn
independently, using documentation, encouraging each other to enjoy doing
so, in a non-threatening environment of their own, away from perceived risk
of scrutiny and evaluation. If no-one else believes that this is a serious
threat to the aims of the documentation project, I suggest we continue this
conversation privately.

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

find / -name "*.conf" |more


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 20 04:24:47 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:24:40 +0100
From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>, Studded <Studded@dal.net>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au> <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net> <19980320223201.63694@welearn.com.au>
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On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 10:32:02PM +1100, Sue Blake wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 01:25:46PM -0800, Studded wrote:
> 
> > 	Errrr... no. At least for me if I have something to say to the newbies
> > list about docs I will say it directly to them and ask them to respond
> > directly to me, or to this list as appropriate.
> 
> This threat is unwelcome. If you are saying that you intend to make this as
> difficult as you possibly can, to the point of acting wilfully against the
> purposes of a mailing list, then I suggest you have picked the wrong person,
> the wrong list, and the wrong day. You did your best to stop the newbies
> from having their own list, and now you want to make use of them for your
> own convenience at the risk of destroying their enclave.

So you're basically saying that if I were to send a message to
newbies@freebsd.org (or whatever the list is called - it's not in the
handbook, which it _should_ be) with
---

Hi, my name is Eivind.  I'm writing a tutorial on how to set up your
shell and editor under FreeBSD to get an optimal working environment
(fit for the individual user, of course).

As I'm trying to cover all levels of FreeBSD experience, I'd be very
grateful if some of you could try to 'test' the tutorial.  Just try to
use it when you feel like it, see if it is useful to you, and tell me
if there are parts you can't understand.

Thanks!

Eivind.
---

then I'm invading your space and attempting to exploit you?


I believe this (for the good of the community) should be allowed, but
with very strict rules about how such messages should be worded, and
possibly somebody to moderate them (ie, "send them to Sue, and she'll
send them on if they're OK"). I do _not_ think all subsequent
communication with members of the newbie list should be indirectly
through the moderator, and I don't think the moderator should be
allowed to re-write requests before sending them on - only reject or
approve them.

BTW: Could you come up with a charter (and the other info) for the
list, so we can add it to the handbook?

Eivind.

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 20 04:38:24 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:37:48 +1100
From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au> <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net> <19980320223201.63694@welearn.com.au> <19980320132440.15913@follo.net>
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On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 01:24:40PM +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote:

> So you're basically saying that if I were to send a message to
> newbies@freebsd.org (or whatever the list is called - it's not in the
> handbook, which it _should_ be) with

Many things should be in the handbook. The list is currently in its first
hours of operation. The charter and stuff still needs to be fixed up, there
have been other difficulties and I have performed less than perfectly in all
respects. Now give us a break.

-- 

Regards,
        -*Sue*-

find / -name "*.conf" |more


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 20 05:46:52 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:42:41 +0100
From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
To: doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Slow query-pr-summary.cgi script
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query-pr-summary.cgi run 13-20 seconds for a simple request. This is
terrible slow. Sometimes it needs 150 (!!) seconds. 

wosch@hub <10:14:54> [~] 
/usr/bin/time lynx -source http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi >/dev
/null
       18.06 real         0.02 user         0.03 sys

wosch@hub <10:40:36> [~] 514
bash$ /usr/bin/time lynx -source http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi
>/dev/null
       39.62 real         0.05 user         0.03 sys

-- 
Wolfram Schneider    <wosch@freebsd.org>    http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 20 14:00:10 1998
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To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
CC: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au> <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net> <19980320223201.63694@welearn.com.au>
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Sue Blake wrote:
> If no-one else believes that this is a serious
> threat to the aims of the documentation project, I suggest we continue this
> conversation privately.

	Actually you have so badly mischaracterized everything I've said that I
don't see any point in continuing the discussion. 

Doug

-- 
***         Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network       ***
*** Proud operator, designer and maintainer of the world's largest
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*** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4    (Powered by FreeBSD)

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 20 17:17:44 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 20:19:07 +0000 (GMT)
From: Greg Pavelcak <gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Stupid question : ) (Not Really)
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------ Forwarded message ------
    From: Diana Roman <dcr10@worldnet.att.net>
 Subject: Stupid question : )
    Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:31:39 -0800
      To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-To: dcr10@worldnet.att.net

Hi there. I'm trying to do a novice installation through an FTP server, and
I'm getting stuck at the 'Network Configuration' screen. I'm not sure what
to fill in here - do I get this info from my ISP? If I hit okay or cancel,
it tells me that the installation is complete with some errors, and it
boots me back into the main menu of the FreeBSD installation system. What
do I do? Help!!
------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry to volunteer then disappear. Nasty little virus :( (in me, not in
my computer)

I was about to write regarding the FOO.TXT when I saw Ms. Roman's
e-mail. I think that, whatever happens, the new INSTALL.TXT should
provide more guidance on the very problem Ms. Roman is having. For my
part, I could never get the "Network Configuration" info right. FTP
installing really should be one of the `easy' ways to go.

Also, I notice that the fixit.flp gets a brief mention in INSTALL.TXT.
The upshot of it seems to be that it's a valuable tool, if you know
what you're doing. That probably needs work. Should there be a FIXIT.TXT
that covers saving an installation by booting -s or using fixit.flp?
Maybe a handbook section on both of these? I, for one, suspect that I
have done complete reinstallations when I could have recovered somehow
if I had had more info. 

I'd be willing to work on such a document, but it certainly wouldn't
happen in time for the 2.2.6-Release. I need to learn the sorts of
things you can do to recover from boot failures first myself.

Greg


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Fri Mar 20 17:29:59 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:59:35 +1030
From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>
Cc: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
Reply-To: FreeBSD Chat <chat@FreeBSD.ORG>
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au> <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net> <19980320223201.63694@welearn.com.au> <19980320132440.15913@follo.net>
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(moved to -chat.  This isn't really a documentation issue any more)

On Fri, 20 March 1998 at 13:24:40 +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 10:32:02PM +1100, Sue Blake wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 01:25:46PM -0800, Studded wrote:
>>
>>> 	Errrr... no. At least for me if I have something to say to the newbies
>>> list about docs I will say it directly to them and ask them to respond
>>> directly to me, or to this list as appropriate.
>>
>> This threat is unwelcome. If you are saying that you intend to make this as
>> difficult as you possibly can, to the point of acting wilfully against the
>> purposes of a mailing list, then I suggest you have picked the wrong person,
>> the wrong list, and the wrong day. You did your best to stop the newbies
>> from having their own list, and now you want to make use of them for your
>> own convenience at the risk of destroying their enclave.
>
> So you're basically saying that if I were to send a message to
> newbies@freebsd.org (or whatever the list is called - it's not in the
> handbook, which it _should_ be) with
> ---
> (snip)
> ---
>
> then I'm invading your space and attempting to exploit you?

I don't agree with Sue's terminology, but I can understand what she's
trying to achieve.  I don't necessarily agree with the division of the
mailing lists, but during the discussion we had about this on -chat a
few weeks back, it became apparent that there could be a need for a
mailing list where newbies could discuss without being preempted by
experienced users.  Sue has described her own concerns in this matter
in vivid detail; maybe there are others like her.

I'm still not convinced that this is going to work.  For example, at
the moment I notice a significant resistance to the policy "talk on
-newbies, questions on -questions".  If the -newbies list stays, it
will probably have a permanent effect on -questions and possibly on
-hackers and -chat.  In addition, a number of self-styled newbies
(including Sue :-) don't seem to be as newbie as I would have
expected.  But I think that it needs to find its own feet, and as a
result I'm (currently) respecting Sue's wishes and not making my
presence known on the list.  I think we need to review this in, say, a
week's time.

Greg


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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sat Mar 21 16:28:26 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:53:03 +0900
From: Jun Kuriyama <kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp>
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To: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de>
CC: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG, GNATS Meister <steve@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: Slow query-pr-summary.cgi script
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Wolfram Schneider wrote:
> query-pr-summary.cgi run 13-20 seconds for a simple request. This is
> terrible slow. Sometimes it needs 150 (!!) seconds.

  I felt this delay from when I used it for the first time (about 1 year
ago).  I think this delay is normal operation period because hub (aka
www) sometimes takes heavy loads and ${gnats-adm}/index has over 6000
PRs and 400KB of size.

  To avoid this (I think) :

    1) caching result of standard queries.
    2) optimize search routine in query-pr.
    3) clear PRs and start from PR #1 :-)


  Or does this delay occur suddenly?

> wosch@hub <10:14:54> [~]
> /usr/bin/time lynx -source http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi >/dev
> /null
>        18.06 real         0.02 user         0.03 sys
> 
> wosch@hub <10:40:36> [~] 514
> bash$ /usr/bin/time lynx -source http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr-summary.cgi
> >/dev/null
>        39.62 real         0.05 user         0.03 sys


-- 
Jun Kuriyama // kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sat Mar 21 16:59:55 1998
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Jun Kuriyama wrote:
> 
>   I felt this delay from when I used it for the first
> time (about 1 year ago).  I think this delay is normal
> operation period because hub (aka www) sometimes takes
> heavy loads and ${gnats-adm}/index has over 6000
> PRs and 400KB of size.
> 
>   To avoid this (I think) :
> 
>     1) caching result of standard queries.
>     2) optimize search routine in query-pr.
>     3) clear PRs and start from PR #1 :-)

I know this is a big problem, which I am attempting to
address along with a bunch of other big problems in
GNATS.

Having GNATS on hub is a big part of the problem.  I
would like to move GNATS to catfish, but the last time
I tried I got some errors due to its mail setup.  I
will check again shortly to see if this has been fixed.

Any suggestions or somebody willing to help hack GNATS
bits welcome. :)

Steve

>   Or does this delay occur suddenly?
> 
> --
> Jun Kuriyama // kuriyama@opt.phys.waseda.ac.jp

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From owner-freebsd-doc  Sat Mar 21 19:35:07 1998
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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:32:54 +0800
From: Ming-I Mseh <PA@FreeBSD.EE.NTU.Edu.Tw>
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Subject: Hi! If I want to mirror,what to do this?
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Hi! If I want to mirror the full homepage of http://www.freebsd.org,
  what to do this?
Beause there are only Handbook and FAQ being able to download
  in ftp://ftp.FreeBSD.ORG/pub/FreeBSD/docs.
I want to mirror the full homepage beause it is very good in many
  aspect! ^o^
I am Dep. of Computer Science & Information Engeering at National
  Central University at Taiwan student!

Taiwan 386BSD PA!


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